From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 1 00:13:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:13:30 -0800 Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby Message-ID: "Who _Threw_ the Overalls in Missus Murphy's Chowder?" JL paulzjoh wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: paulzjoh Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget: Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's chowder. The wearing of the green Johnson's motorcar. Irish Soldier Boy Wrap the green flag around me Rifles of the I.R.A. Black and Tans The Rebel Jesus Johnnie I hardly knew you And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was about the English being the first Egyptians Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks' and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile" > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 01:42:45 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >vote is for the brand name as the source. > >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~~ I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." I certainly remember the Servel with its pretty little blue flame logo. My in-laws had one on the ranch in Wyo --- before REA came into the valley -- when electricity, supplied by their own generator, was only on for a few hours each evening. Servels must have saved a lot of food from spoilage in rural America until years after WWII. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 02:38:45 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:38:45 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:42 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >>of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >>seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >>"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >>used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >>vote is for the brand name as the source. >> >>-Wilson I always wondered the same, and never could decide which was the real story. (Guess that's what turned us into linguists, right?) > ~~~~~~~~~~ >I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics (paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi (in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". Similarly, take two products associated with companies (once) based in Rochester, NY: Kodak for small, easy-to-use affordable cameras and Xerox for copy-machines. The fact that we have the generic noun (and verb) "xerox" but not the generic noun "kodak" (although obviously we have "Kodak moment" and such) has to do with the early and continued domination of the market in the case of one more than in that of the other. Or so I'd bet. I'm sure Ron Butters, Roger Shuy, et al. know much more about this stuff, but I enjoy speculating. Larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 1 02:42:59 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:42:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "rag top" ? 1926 Message-ID: The OED has 1955, for the meaning of a car with a convertible top. M-W has 1953. While this is possibly not acceptible as meaning a "convertible" both M-W and OED may find it useful. I'm not into cars of the period. >From Newspaperarchive, 26 May 1926 _San Mateo(CA) Times_ pg 7(Auto section), col. 2 << "...more than one-half of all open cars sold during 1925 at prices of more than $1000 each, were Studebaker duplex phaetons and roadsters, the cars that have made the old fashioned 'rag top' automobile entirely obsolete." >> Sam Clements From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 1 02:47:59 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:47:59 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting etymological questions. I had always assumed that refrigerator was an ad coinage to get away from the primitiveness of ice box. However, MW 11 gives 1611 as the first use of refrigerator, from the French, of course. You antedating guys can get on which comes first in modern American ad use (refrigerator/Fridgedaire), but how about frigid+air = frigid+aire, a spelling to catch that sophisticated French aire. Fridge could them be ambiguously derived from both. Perhaps more interestingly, we have a modern(?) example of the French/English split dating back to the Middle Ages: French beef, pork, refrigerator, etc.; English cow, pig, ice box. Ok, a bit of a reach, but. . . Jim Stalker sagehen writes: >>I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >>of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >>seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >>"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >>used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >>vote is for the brand name as the source. >> >>-Wilson > ~~~~~~~~~~ > I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another > list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that > became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the > 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." > I certainly remember the Servel with its pretty little blue flame logo. My > in-laws had one on the ranch in Wyo --- before REA came into the valley -- > when electricity, supplied by their own generator, was only on for a few > hours each evening. Servels must have saved a lot of food from spoilage in > rural America until years after WWII. > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 03:34:09 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:34:09 EST Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > I agree.  In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another > list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that > became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the > 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." > Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 1 03:34:34 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:34:34 -0500 Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure that I see how this explains "The team have won its last thee matches." Jim Stalker Laurence Horn writes: > At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one >> need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule: >> >> 1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase. >> >> 2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase. >> >> -Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real >> prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.] >> > > Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end > up leaking around the edges. If the predicate relates directly to > the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to > me: > > A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click > consonants. > A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is > (?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be > closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria > region. > > [N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the spot] > > Or even more clearly in: > > "A group of people always has (#have) a leader." > > And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses: > > "For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members" > > What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the > group or of its members. > > Larry > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109602980"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 03:55:27 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:55:27 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > >> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >> > >Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is >clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > >"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few >people >who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >tissue to >dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." ~~~~~~~~~~ You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not capitalizing and adding little  doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 1 04:17:42 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:17:42 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is > >clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. > "televison" and > >"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major > >appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > > > >"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few > >people > >who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified > >about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a > >tissue to > >dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase > >"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. Let me propose a thought-experiment. Assume (I think this is true) that "fridge" is generic = "refrigerator", whatever its etymology. Suppose that it is shown in dictionaries with this generic sense (this is true). Now suppose that (through error or otherwise) the USPTO allowed someone to register the trademark "Fridge" for refrigerators and other appliances. Would it be correct to say that "fridge" no longer exists as a generic word? Would it be reasonable for a dictionary to delete its previous generic interpretation and replace it with "trademark for refrigerators", even if the new Fridge trademark never got far off the ground and even if hardly anyone ever used the word in the trademark sense? [This would be an extreme form of prescriptivism, maybe. (^_^)] [This is apparently what happened with "skivvies" in MW recently. Or am I missing something again?] -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 04:23:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:23:55 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little  doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 1 04:24:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:24:15 -0500 Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the use of the plural of the verb phrase with the name of a group, a team, or a set, etc. just standard English English? As for "its' vs. "their," I don't know whether that's Britspeak or not. -Wilson On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:34 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'm not sure that I see how this explains "The team have won its last > thee > matches." > > Jim Stalker > > > Laurence Horn writes: > >> At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>> It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one >>> need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule: >>> >>> 1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase. >>> >>> 2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase. >>> >>> -Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real >>> prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.] >>> >> >> Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end >> up leaking around the edges. If the predicate relates directly to >> the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to >> me: >> >> A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click >> consonants. >> A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is >> (?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be >> closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria >> region. >> >> [N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the >> spot] >> >> Or even more clearly in: >> >> "A group of people always has (#have) a leader." >> >> And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses: >> >> "For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members" >> >> What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the >> group or of its members. >> >> Larry >> >> >> -- >> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve >> security, as described below. >> >> Sanitizer (start="1109602980"): >> ParseHeader (): >> Ignored junk while parsing header: >> >> SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): >> Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): >> Enforced policy: accept >> >> >> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 07:51:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:51:23 EST Subject: Time magazine digital archives, and more Message-ID: On 22 February 2005, Fred Shapiro posted: ... My longstanding theory that the terms "preppie," "jock," and "wonk" all had their origins in a traditional tripartite division of Harvard students seems to be holding up pretty well, although the earliest Harvard usage of "wonk" is not quite as old as the oldest known citation. Incidentally, I saw somewhere that subscribers to Time get access to a historical archive of that magazine... Fred Shapiro ... ... _http://www.researchbuzz.org/time_magazine_archives_now_available_on_timecom_. shtml_ (http://www.researchbuzz.org/time_magazine_archives_now_available_on_timecom_.shtml) December 22, 2004 TIME Magazine Archives Now Available on TIME.com TIME magazine has now made its 81 years of archives available, over 266,000 articles. The archives have their own domain at _http://www.timearchive.com_ (http://www.timearchive.com/) . The archive is keyword and date-searchable, with an additional search for covers. A search for "Jimmy Carter" found over 2700 articles. Articles are listed with title, date, byline, snippet, and article word count. When I went to view an article, I was surprised to see that I could! But it was a Web article I was looking at. When I tried to look at a non-Web article, I got the first paragraph or so and a note that if I were a TIME subscriber I would have full archive access for free. The subscription is $1.99 for the first 12 issues, and then about $15 for six months. That's not bad at all. But if you don't want to do that, look for the option that says "Click here to see other purchase options". Individual articles are $2.50 and an annual subscription are $49.95. ... ... December 22, 2004 Argus Digital Collection Indexed from 1894-2003 I love it when someone submits a resource and I ask them to submit it again when it's a little further along and they actually DO -- over a year later! Illinois Wesleyan University's newspaper, The Argus, has been published continuously since 1894. And now the archives from the newspaper from 1894-2003 are now available. You can check them out at _http://www.iwu.edu/library/services/argus1.htm_ (http://www.iwu.edu/library/services/argus1.htm) . A list of indexed terms are available from 1965-2003, so those are the only dates available for keyword searching. All the papers are browsable, though, by date. I searched for the phrase Jimmy Carter. I got three results. Results list only the dates. Click on the icon next to the date and you'll get an image of the front page. Click again and you'll get the complete issue as a PDF, including advertisements, which are always interesting years after the fact. Even the earlier editions of the paper are pretty easy to read, though the photographs in the early 80s volumes I looked at were pretty rough. ... February 25, 2005 * An Index of Mad Magazine Covers It's hard to believe that you used to be able to go to the Fast Fare and buy Cracked, Crazy, and Mad magazine at the same time. It's been ages since I've read any of them, so it was a tidal wave of nostalgia when I came across the Mad Magazine cover archive at _http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/index-covers.html_ (http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/index-covers.html) . All the covers are here from #1 in 1952 to #451 in March 2005. All the ones I looked at also had a table of contents of what was available in the issue. I wish the cover images were a little larger but they're still great. In addition to the cover images, this site also has tv and movie satire lists, ad satire lists, a very short quiz, and a bunch of Mad-related links. A lot of work was put into this. Timesink! ... ... December 01, 2004 The Scotsman Launches a Digital Archive The Scotsman has launched a digital archive of their newspaper going back to 1817 and going through 1900. Though it does cost to access articles, searching is fahree and there's a sample of content available. The archive's at _http://tinyurl.com/5xjuo_ (http://tinyurl.com/5xjuo) (sorry, the original URL is enormous.) Searching is by simple keyword. A search for "Frodo" found 31 results. Results included the headline from the article found, the date and page from which the result it drawn, and the number of results in the article. If you'd like to see the item, you have several options, from a 24-hour pass for £5.95 to a one-year pass for £109.95. In addition to the search, the archive also contains the history of The Scotsman and a fahree sample issue (the first issue of the paper!) If you'd rather browse than search, a calendar of issues is available. Nicely done and not a bad price -- I like all the options for access. ... ... December 01, 2004 Online Database of Scots Texts Available It's called SCOTS, and it stands for Scottish Corpus of Texts and Speech. It includes about 400 texts from Scots to Scottish English. It was assembled by the Arts and Humanities Research Board and it's available at _http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/_ (http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/) . The site is searchable by several different factors, including word (of course), author, gender, area of birth or residence, and year composed. A search for "richt" found 112 results, with results listing title, author, and multimedia. I took a look at Daft Jackie ("Folk kent for miles aboot that Duncan Dungarroch wisnae hauf as bricht as the beer he brewed.") The text is presented complete, with the word for which you searched highlighted. It looks like most of these writings are fairly short. There were some items which were transcriptions and were marked with "audio" in the multimedia portion of the search results. Each of the lines on these transcriptions were clickable, but I wasn't able to generate any audio from them, even viewing them in Internet Explorer. Perhaps you will have better luck than me. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 09:54:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:54:45 EST Subject: TIME coinages?; Wuss (1977) Message-ID: _TIME_ COINAGES? ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) #3979 (24 Jan 2000 05:37) - Coinages (part four)(LONG!) Time coined the word "newsmagazine," along with many other words that entered the language--socialite, guesstimate, televangelist--and many words that did not, including cinemactor and nudancer and sexational. (RHHDAS has guesstimate from 1934, but with no Time citation--ed.) ... ... NEWSMAGAZINE Miscellany _(During the Past Week the Daily Press..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,727690,00.html) Dec. 24, 1923 (During the Past Week the Daily Press Gave Extensive Publicity to the Following Men and Women. Let Each Explain to You Why His Name Appeared in the Headlines.) Mrs. Leonard Wood: "The New York Evening Journal, self-styled 'America's Greatest Evening Newspaper,' ignorantly announced that I had been appointed a Vice Chairman of the Republican National ... ... (OED) 1890 Science 3 Jan. 11 The first number of a weekly *news magazine. 1953 Encounter Nov. 5/1 He shifted to the weekly news-magazine, Der Spiegel. 1992 Economist 31 Oct. 51/1 Old News is the output of the broadsheet newspapers, the news magazines and the television networks' news shows. ... ... GUESSTIMATE No early citation in TIME. See ADS-L archives. ... ... SOCIALITE (OED has this citation) _Engaged. Almira G. Rockefeller, only..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,928438,00.html) Dec. 31, 1928 Engaged. Almira G. Rockefeller, only daughter of the late William G. Rockefeller, grandniece of John Davison Rockefeller, recent debutante, of Manhattan & Greenwich, Conn.; to M. Roy Jackson, able huntsman, widower, father of two married daughters, of Rye, N. Y. Engaged. Melville E. Stone II, grandson of . Associated Press General Manager Melville E. Stone, ... ... ... TELEVANGELIST (OED has 5 March 1973 from TIME, but only this shows up?) Religion _Retailing Optimism_ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,917133,00.html) Feb. 24, 1975 The cameras are in place. So is the Pan-Cake makeup. Cue the lights. Ready on the fountains. Action. "This is the day God has made," beams the Rev. Robert Schuller as he bounds toward the pulpit. A glass panel separating the walk-in sanctuary from the drive-in sanctuary lumbers open. As a dozen fountains spurt skyward, .. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- WUSS ... We have 1976, so I don't know if 1977 helps. THE ITHACAN, from Ithaca College, supposedly is digitized from January 1931, but a check of the word "slang" shows an entry in January 1927. ... ... 24 February 1977, THE ITHACAN, pg. 13, col. 1: A group of athletically-inclined might polish off a half in thirty minutes, while a wuss convention will take all night to dent a quarter.. From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Tue Mar 1 15:01:12 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:01:12 -0600 Subject: Kleenex and icebox Message-ID: At my house, "kleenex" denotes the tissue squares that come packaged in little boxes, while "tissue" denotes the stuff coiled on rolls that we use in the bathroom. "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends had a field day with my American useage. As well, the large appliance that keeps food chilled is called the "icebox," unless we're being self-conscious about it. sally donlon From katherine.martin at OUP.COM Tue Mar 1 15:16:59 2005 From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:16:59 -0500 Subject: rods and poles Message-ID: The OED (ed. 2) entry for pole n.1 includes the sense "a rudimentary fishing rod; esp. one used without fittings other than a line connected to the tip of the rod (now chiefly N. Amer.)" In my own usage (born and raised in VT), pole is simply a synonym for rod, without any implication of technological simplicity. It is the only term that I use, but I have the sense of there being some sort of register distinction here, with rod as the more formal, pole as the more colloquial. DARE doesn't note any regional usages here, and pole is not covered specifically in the angling sense in either M-W or Amer. Heritage. To test the "rudimentary" aspect, I searched proquest for "pole" and "reel", and found ample evidence of poles with reels, including some along the lines of the following, where the narrative uses "rod", but direct quotes feature "pole", though there are also examples of "pole" in straight reportage. 2004 _Field & Stream_ (South ed.) Feb. p. 28 Hall's catfish tackle consists of stout 7-to-7-foot rods, Abu Garcia 7000 big-game baitcasting reels, and 40-pound-test Berkley Big Game monofilament... "When I see the tip of a pole quiver, I pick it up and engage the reel." Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? Thanks, Katherine OED From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 1 15:18:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:18:15 -0500 Subject: short order cook (1891) short order restaurant (1887) Message-ID: OEDs: 1956. However, in NewspaperARCHIVE.com, in a column of advertisements: Short Orders. Having lately added a short order bill of fare also the services of a good short order cook, I am now prpared to sever meals all hours during the day or night up to 1 o'clock. Give me a call. Hue Singleton, Decatur Morning Review, Oct. 21, 1891, p 4 And, for short order restaurant from the same data base, in a column of advertisements only some of the type of which is legible. However, this line of time is incontestably readable despite the fact that the line above and the line below are unreadable (to me): SHORT ORDER RESTAURANT Colorado Sprins Gazette, Oct. 23, 1887, p 2 From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Mar 1 15:22:34 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:22:34 -0600 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <200503011515.j21FF5UT021512@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Katherine Martin asked: > Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) > whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; > (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? Hmm. I don't commonly use either word, but I think I would regard "rod" as a hyponym of "pole". The proverbial stick with a string on it is a fishing (or fishin') pole, but definitely not a fishing rod. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From maberry at MYUW.NET Tue Mar 1 15:27:14 2005 From: maberry at MYUW.NET (Allen Maberry) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:27:14 -0800 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <200503011515.j21FF59T030659@mxe4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: In my experience a fishing pole and fishing rod are the same thing. When I was growing up (OR, 1950s-60s) the most common term was "fishin' pole" or just "pole" as in "grab your pole, I think you got a nibble". "Rod" or "rod and reel" sounds a bit more high class to me, as in "Rod and Gun Club." The exception would be for "fly-fishing rods" which I don't recall ever being referred to as "poles." allen On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Martin, Katherine wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Martin, Katherine" > Subject: rods and poles > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The OED (ed. 2) entry for pole n.1 includes the sense "a rudimentary > fishing rod; esp. one used without fittings other than a line > connected to the tip of the rod (now chiefly N. Amer.)" > > In my own usage (born and raised in VT), pole is simply a synonym for > rod, without any implication of technological simplicity. It is the > only term that I use, but I have the sense of there being some sort of > register distinction here, with rod as the more formal, pole as the > more colloquial. > > DARE doesn't note any regional usages here, and pole is not covered > specifically in the angling sense in either M-W or Amer. Heritage. > > To test the "rudimentary" aspect, I searched proquest for "pole" and > "reel", and found ample evidence of poles with reels, including some > along the lines of the following, where the narrative uses "rod", but > direct quotes feature "pole", though there are also examples of "pole" > in straight reportage. > > 2004 _Field & Stream_ (South ed.) Feb. p. 28 > > Hall's catfish tackle consists of stout 7-to-7-foot rods, Abu Garcia > 7000 big-game baitcasting reels, and 40-pound-test Berkley Big Game > monofilament... "When I see the tip of a pole quiver, I pick it up and > engage the reel." > > Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) > whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; > (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? > > Thanks, > > Katherine > OED > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 16:29:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:29:48 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics >(paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful >marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, >however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, >or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi >(in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~~ I take your point. It might be interesting to compare the advertising budgets of these competing products. I do think /kleenex/ has an intrinsic advantage over /scotties/ or /puffs/, in that it only meant one thing, and its sheer ugliness to eye & ear make it memorable. I can easily imagine (without prejudice, since I've always loathed both) /pepsi/ beating out /coke/ if they'd come on the market at the same time. /Curad/ might have won, with a head start, but /bandaid/ is such a beaut, that looks doubtful to me. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 16:39:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:39:24 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:29 AM -0500 3/1/05, sagehen wrote: > >But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics >>(paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful >>marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, >>however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, >>or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi >>(in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". > > >>Larry >~~~~~~~~~~ >I take your point. It might be interesting to compare the advertising >budgets of these competing products. I do think /kleenex/ has an intrinsic >advantage over /scotties/ or /puffs/, in that it only meant one thing, and >its sheer ugliness to eye & ear make it memorable. >I can easily imagine (without prejudice, since I've always loathed both) >/pepsi/ beating out /coke/ if they'd come on the market at the same time. >/Curad/ might have won, with a head start, but /bandaid/ is such a beaut, >that looks doubtful to me. >AM > Re "kleenex": wasn't there a study on the effectiveness of "x" and "k" (or at least [k]) in denoting "modernness" in product names that came out during the post-WWII period? There certainly were a bunch of them, including the aforementioned "xerox", "clorox" (with a [k]), and "Kodak", even if the latter didn't make it to generic status. I think there were other examples, although I can't dredge them up at the moment. I think "scotch-tape" also had the right phonology for success, although it lacked the non-ambiguity you point out as an asset for "kleenex" (and "xerox"). As to ugliness, "kleenex" is a little like all those box buildings ("international style") that were so popular during the same period, isn't it? Larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 1 16:43:32 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:43:32 -0800 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, February 28, 2005 10:34 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is > clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" > and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner > of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > > "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it > as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very > few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would > be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or > "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be > confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex > cocktail napkins." All this is true only if you ignore popular usage. And why would a linguist do that? If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law. I never heard of "Kleenex rubber panties" and have a hard time picturing something that's both rubber and made of kleenex. Trademarked or not, I remember people using "frigidaire" generically--e.g., "Get a coke out of the frigidaire." I suspect this was in the days when Frigidaire made only refrigerators, and that the usage faded when the label was expanded to other products. Similarly, I clearly remember my grandfather using "kodak" as a generic for "camera"--at a time when Kodak products dominated the U.S. market in cameras that ordinary folks could afford. This, likewise, faded when the market changed (not unlike what seems to be happening with "church key"). A bit tangentially, the English of the Pennsylvania Amish apparently once had "fordcar" as a generic for "car." My only source, admittedly, is a play, Papa Is All, which was set in Pa. Amish country and did at least a convincing job of conveying the speech of that milieu. There was a line in the play about somebody having bought a "Chevrolet fordcar." Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 17:21:00 2005 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). People will think it is weird to say for example, "Puff Kleenex." -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Subj: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:23 pm Size: 3K To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little  doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 1 17:38:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:38:19 -0800 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: I grew up using "tissue" interchangeably with "kleenex." The stuff on rolls is "toilet paper." JL ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). People will think it is weird to say for example, "Puff Kleenex." -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Subj: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:23 pm Size: 3K To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little � doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Mar 1 17:45:12 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:45:12 +0000 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <200503011738.j21HcRSi018352@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 1/3/05 5:38 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > I grew up using "tissue" interchangeably with "kleenex." The stuff on rolls > is "toilet paper." > > JL > Agreement on the former, but colloquially in the UK, the latter is "bog roll". -Neil Crawford From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Mar 1 18:46:50 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:46:50 -0600 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <1109690554.422488bae7fe3@webmail.siue.edu> Message-ID: In the forties and fifties a child had a bamboo pole, with a line and a hook, tied on the end, whereas grownups had bamboo rods with ferrules , a reel and a lure. This was in Ill. and Wis. The bamboo rods were compound; being made out of split pieces of bamboo and then joined together with both glue and ferrules. In addition a handle for the reel was permanently attached. In my mind a rod is always an artifact, where a pole is just a long stick Jim Parish wrote: >Katherine Martin asked: > > >>Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) >>whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; >>(b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? >> >> > >Hmm. I don't commonly use either word, but I think I would regard "rod" as a >hyponym of "pole". The proverbial stick with a string on it is a fishing (or >fishin') pole, but definitely not a fishing rod. > >Jim Parish >------------------------------------------------- >SIUE Web Mail > > > > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 1 19:00:15 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:00:15 -0500 Subject: short order cook (1891) short order restaurant (1887) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:18:15 -0500, Barnhart wrote: >OEDs: 1956. > >However, in NewspaperARCHIVE.com, in a column of advertisements: > >Short Orders. >Having lately added a short order bill of fare also the services of a good >short order cook, I am now prpared to sever meals all hours during the day >or night up to 1 o'clock. Give me a call. >Hue Singleton, Decatur Morning Review, Oct. 21, 1891, p 4 The term also appears in L.A. Times classified ads from Nov. 1891 on. >And, for short order restaurant from the same data base, in a column of >advertisements only some of the type of which is legible. However, this >line of time is incontestably readable despite the fact that the line >above and the line below are unreadable (to me): > >SHORT ORDER RESTAURANT >Colorado Sprins Gazette, Oct. 23, 1887, p 2 By searching on "shortorder" I was able to find a more legible version of what is apparently the same ad, published several months earlier: ----- _Daily Gazette_ (Colorado Springs), Feb. 24, 1887, p. 4, col. 3 Chicago Bakery ERICSON & GOUGH, Proprietors, Next Door to the Postoffice. We invite a Trial of Our Bread and Cakes As we are sure they will be found Superior to any in the city. We also carry a full line of Choice Confection- ery and Pure Home-Made Candies. We have also in connection with our Bakery a Short Order Restaurant And are prepared to fill all orders for Ice Cream and Ices. ----- --Ben Zimmer From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:11:04 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:11:04 -0500 Subject: "Gwine" Message-ID: Yes, you're right about "goin" (monosyllabic) as a source. Labials & velars in SW English project a /w/ after the consonant, so you get "bwile" for boil and "bwy" for boy. Both of these occur in Caribbean creoles. I don't know if either made it to these shores--bile sounds more usual in American vernaculars to me than bwile does. Yours, Paul Johnston From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:44:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:44:20 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <142.408d98dd.2f55fea4@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:21 PM -0500 3/1/05, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems >clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and >that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to >paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). But is this really any different from knowing that "drink" sometimes denotes an imbibable liquid and sometimes an imbibable alcoholic liquid? Or that "color" can include or exclude black and white? Or that "guys" can pick out males sometimes but be gender-nonspecific other times, and so can "gays"? Or that _Frau_ in German and _femme_ in French may pick out women in general or just wives? Or that a Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? Isn't this just the garden variety autohyponymy that often results from broadening and narrowing? What (most) English speakers know, I submit, is that "Kleenex" is a name for a certain brand of tissue and also that it's a generic essentially equivalent to "tissue"; what they know about "Scotties" and "Puffs" is that they have the former sort of meaning and not the latter. There is a case to made for some of these distinctions involving uses rather than senses, but I think with most of those derived generics the line has been crossed. (And to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has essentially disappeared from the speech community.) larry From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:51:33 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:51:33 -0600 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Or that a >Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after all, not a subset of people from New England)? Barbara From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 1 20:54:21 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:54:21 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: These things ebb and flow. A few years ago, I was surprised when people started correcting my references to "Xerox machine" (which I then considered generic, in ordinary speech, for "copier") with "No, it's an IBM [or other specific make] machine." Now "copier" has replaced "Xerox machine" in my own vocabulary. A Kleenex, to me, can be of any brand. My wife, however, routinely asks for a "tissue," even though Kleenex brand tissues are what we use. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 3:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) (And to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has essentially disappeared from the speech community.) larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 1 21:51:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:51:39 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:21 PM -0500 3/1/05, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems >> clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and >> that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to >> paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). > > But is this really any different from knowing that "drink" sometimes > denotes an imbibable liquid and sometimes an imbibable alcoholic > liquid? Or that "color" can include or exclude black and white? Or > that "guys" can pick out males sometimes but be gender-nonspecific > other times, and so can "gays"? Or that _Frau_ in German and _femme_ > in French may pick out women in general or just wives? Or that a > Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the > northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? > > Isn't this just the garden variety autohyponymy that often results > from broadening and narrowing? What (most) English speakers know, I > submit, is that "Kleenex" is a name for a certain brand of tissue and > also that it's a generic essentially equivalent to "tissue"; what > they know about "Scotties" and "Puffs" is that they have the former > sort of meaning and not the latter. There is a case to made for some > of these distinctions involving uses rather than senses, but I think > with most of those derived generics the line has been crossed. (And > to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for > "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and > the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", > "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has > essentially disappeared from the speech community.) > > larry > I was caught completely off-guard when I discovered that "Kitty Litter" was a brand name. I'd been using the name generically for years. And I learned "kodak" - the kind of kodak that we used was the oddly-named "Brownie" - a long time, at least a decade, before I learned the word "camera." -Wilson From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 22:01:19 2005 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:01:19 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't it, Ron? That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in determining whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? Some of this ground is covered in an excellent article by Ron and Jennifer Westerhaus, "Linguistic change in words one owns: How trademarks become 'generic,'" in _Studies in the History of the English Language II: Unfolding Conversations_, edited by Anne Curzan and Kimberly Emmons (Mouton de Gruyter, 2004). One might accuse me of several conflicts of interest in mentioning it, I suppose, since Anne is my collaborator, Ron is my colleague and friend, and Jennifer is my fiancee, but Jenny and Ron would be the first to point out that I agree entirely with Larry. (Usually, they just say that I'm wrong, but now maybe they'll say something like, "Well, now you're just agreeing with Larry," instead.) Michael From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Mar 1 22:16:25 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:16:25 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <38C9CF6F.57DCE964.0B0EF510@aol.com> Message-ID: Tom Murray had an article some years ago called "From trade name to generic: The case of Coke" (Names, 43, 1995, 165-186). He cites court cases dealing with "allowed" use of the brand name as generic. Roger Shuy may have something on these issues too. At 05:01 PM 3/1/2005, you wrote: >The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't >it, Ron? That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in >determining whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? > >Some of this ground is covered in an excellent article by Ron and Jennifer >Westerhaus, "Linguistic change in words one owns: How trademarks become >'generic,'" in _Studies in the History of the English Language >II: Unfolding Conversations_, edited by Anne Curzan and Kimberly Emmons >(Mouton de Gruyter, 2004). One might accuse me of several conflicts of >interest in mentioning it, I suppose, since Anne is my collaborator, Ron >is my colleague and friend, and Jennifer is my fiancee, but Jenny and Ron >would be the first to point out that I agree entirely with >Larry. (Usually, they just say that I'm wrong, but now maybe they'll say >something like, "Well, now you're just agreeing with Larry," instead.) > >Michael From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 22:54:48 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:54:48 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109666612@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: Peter A. McGraw wrote: > --On Monday, February 28, 2005 10:34 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> > >> Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is >> clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" >> and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner >> of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >> "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it >> as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very >> few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would >> be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or >> "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be >> confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex >> cocktail napkins." > > > All this is true only if you ignore popular usage. And why would a > linguist do that? > > If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either > affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law. When I was in high school, the officially sanctioned response when someone asked for a tissue (instead of a Kleenex) was "tissue? I hardly know you". -- Alice Faber From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 22:57:17 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:57:17 EST Subject: The meaning of GENERIC (was FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX) Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 5:01:47 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't > it, Ron?  That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in determining > whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? > Well, I would say that the primacy of what SPEAKERS know is what linguistics is all about. In lexicography, one describes the meanings that one concludes--inductively, on the basis of the data of actual use (but also with some use of introspection and the work of previous lexicographers)--that are in the minds of speakers of the language. In linguistics, the usual definition of GENERIC is not relevant to the issue of trademarks, since GENERIC (as linguists susually use the term) may be applied to ANY word (e.g., "The giraffe has a long neck" is ambiguous between a generic and a nongeneric reading). The lexicographical definition of GENERIC (in the sense relevant to this discussion) is essentially borrowed from the law. Legally, a term is not GENERIC if it is a trademark. KLEENEX and JELLO and BAND-AID are legal trademarks; therefore, they are not "the generic term." They may be USED in a SHORTHAND way (Jenny and I called this SYNECHDOCHE in our article that Michael mentions) as if they were generics, but that does not make them generics unless people really believe that they are no longer trademarks. It truly happened with, say, ZIPPER and ASPIRIN, but not with KLEENEX, that people came to so believe. Perhaps there is some taxonomic profit in (re)defining GENERIC in linguistics/lexicography to include the shorthand sense as well as the legal sense, but I can't see any profit in essentially blurring a distinction that is culturally quite important (i.e., in the law) and that delineates a real difference in linguistic knowledge and behavior (i.e., people recognize MICROSOFT and KLEENEX as one kind of word, ZIPPER as the other). Perhaps it could be useful to create a category that contains KLEENEX and ZIPPER but excludes MICROSOFT, but it seems to me that the burden of argument is on those who would find such a category necessary--and they need also to explain why such a category is culturally and/or linguistically useful, and why they want to appropriate a term that already has a closely related meaning. I don't think I "disagree" with Larry and Michael--it is really just a question of what labels to assign to what concepts. Of course, it would be perfectly legitimate to say that there is no little empirical evidence to indicate that, in folk speech, many people use the term GENERIC in what I am arguing here is a less-useful way (and which Michael and Larry seem to favor). As linguists and lexicographers, we ought certainly to record that "fact" as well. I suggest, however, that most people who use "generic" in the Michael-Larry way have in fact been from the outset strongly influenced by the legal sense of the term--that is, they are in realilty attempting to use it in a quasi-legal fashion without understanding the sociolegal implications of their usage. And this leads to all sorts of confusion. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 00:34:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:34:53 -0500 Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again Message-ID: CEDAR REVOLUTION CEDAR REVOLUTION--652 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits >From the NEW YORK SUN, editorials, 1 March 2005, pg. 8, col. 1: _The Cedar Revolution_ (...) First the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, then the Purple Revolution of Iraqis raising their dyed fingers after voting, (Col. 2--ed.) now the Cedar Revolution against Syrian domination in Lebanon. Actually, I'd go with "Velvet Revolution" in the Czech Republic being the daddy of all these. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Lebanon Government Resigns After Protest ... The State Department's annual report on human rights abuses around the world, released Monday, called the events in Lebanon a "Cedar Revolution" - a moniker ... clari.world.gov.politics - Feb 28, 11:30 pm by AP (GOOGLE) http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=13082 Name that revolution Wednesday, March 02, 2005 WASHINGTON: The U.S. State Department named anti-Syrian street demonstrations in Lebanon the "Cedar revolution," in reference to Lebanon's majestic trees that are celebrated in the Bible as a symbol of well-being and are at the centerpiece of the national flag. Presenting on Monday the State Department's annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2004, Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs Paula Dobriansky said: "In Lebanon, we see growing momentum for a 'Cedar revolution' that is unifying the citizens of that nation to the cause of true democracy and freedom from foreign influence." -------------------------------------------------------------- "HOT DOG" WRONG YET AGAIN There are very few certainties in life. There is death. There are taxes. And-- METRO, "Food Stuff," 1 March 2005, pg. 14, col. 1: _Hot dog purists get buff_ _Bison meat is the newest low-fat fad for frank lovers_(...) Hot dogs became standard fare at ball parks in 1893. According to the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Chris Von de (der--ed.) Ahe, owner of a St. Louis bar and the St. Louis Browns, established "little dogs" as the game food. But another version of events says the "frankfurter" was dubbed the "hot daschund sausage" (dachshund?--ed.) by a cartoonist watching a game at New York City's Polo Grounds. While the origins of the modern hot dog is up to popular debate, its popularity hasn't wavered--consumers spent $1.8 Billion on hot dogs in supermarkets in 2003, and it's estimated that Americans eat 20 billion hot dogs a year, says the Council. (..) CATHERINE NEW catherine.new at metro.us From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 00:35:26 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:35:26 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:51 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >>Or that a >>Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >>northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? > >What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after >all, not a subset of people from New England)? > No, the baseball team "Yankee" (or the defunct pro football team) is a different item. The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind involve contexts in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because he was Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used in the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) In some contexts, that Greenwich, CT stockbroker who commutes to Wall Street isn't really a Yankee. But that craggy farmer from Vermont who talks like the guy in the Pepperidge Fahm commercial and has a profile like that of the (now eroded) Old Man of the Mountains, or the Mayflower-descended non-rhotic headmistress of a New Hampshire boarding school, and the laconic Maine lobsterman who mostly just says "ayuh" are Yankees by any definition (except the baseball one, and that we're agreeing is a different lexical item). An argument, perhaps, for a Roschian prototype definition, but I think it really does involve true autohyponymy, with different cutoff points in different contexts. larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Mar 2 00:37:57 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:37:57 -0600 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 01:11:35 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:11:35 -0500 Subject: Hawkins (1934, 1935, 1946) Message-ID: I copied the important materials today. Only one thing seems certain--"Hawkins" DOESN'T come from Chicago. 30 November 1946, THE NEW YORKER, pg. 75: _A REPORTER AT LARGE_ _HAWKINS IS INSIDE_ (Pg. 78, col. 2--ed.) "Hawkins is inside tonight," she said. "I only got five shots." "It's still early," Miss Palmer said. "Who's Hawkins?" I asked. "Oh, that's just an expression that means things are bad," Miss Cook said. "I picked it up from the musicians. There used to be an amateur drummer down in Washington named Hawkins who was always getting some band to let him sit in with them. He was so terrible that when everything was going wronf in the joint the musicians got to saying that Hawkins was inside. When things were jumping, they'd say Hawkins was outside. Well, so far as I'm concerned, he's inside every place on the Street tonight." 21 December 1934, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 14, col. 7: NEITHER friend nor stranger is safe from my inquiries since I first embarked on the enterprise of ferreting out the derivation of "Hawkins," meaning a bitter wind, something disagreeable, or a bogeyman, as defined by our cook. While my efforts thus far have been marked by a signal lack of success, a friend the other day contributed an interesting analogy. I was telling him of my theory that "Hawkins" is descended in its present form from the name of Sir John Hawkins, British admiral and slave trader--due, no doubt, to the fear he inspired among the Negroes with whom he dealt. My friend countered this by telling me of the use of Oliver Cromwell's name today in Ireland. The dictator and his cropheads, not content with terrorizing the cavaliers, so conducted themselves among the Irish that even to this day his name is anathema to any true son of Erin. Hence, when some child has been particularly naughty, so says my friend, its nurse will bring it to time with the threat: "Oliver Cromwell will get you if you don't behave." 27 December 1934, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ I have a very faint gleam of light to throw on the darkness of the saying "Hawkin's (sic) is outside" when the wind is biting cold. My young colored cook says that her old father always used the expression when he was alive, and that her mother thinks he meant that there was a mean old man going by. Why not your British slave trader? CONSTANT READER. Baltimore, Dec. 24. IT LOOKS as though we were on the right track, or, as the youngsters say, a "hot trail." 5 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ I am a little late telling you what I know about Hawkins, but Christmas and one thing and another delayed me. I remember, as a small child, hearinf adult members of my family--of Virginia stock for many generations--say on a day when the wind was particularly high and cold, "Hawkins is certainly out today." I have heard similar expressions from Negroes, but I have never had the impression that Hawkins was of African origin. It was my idea that the darkies had borrowed him from the whites. This idea is strengthened by what my wife tells me. She is English, and spent her early years in Devonshire and South Wales, and she says that Hawkins was frequently mentioned there when the wind was especially nippy. But who Hawkins is and why he should be the personification of a sharp and cutting wind, neither she nor I, nor anyone else I have talked to, has any explanation whatever. I hope your researches may discover the answer. At least the gentleman seems to be widely, if rather unfavorably, known. W. G. M. Norfolk, Va., Dec. 31, 1934. 8 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ In the interest of the advancement of science, I recently asked a venerable Negro named Clarence Thomas (!--ed.) whether he had ever heard the expression "Hawkins is outside." He replied in the affirmative and said that his old father had frequently used this quaint expression to indicate that the weather was inclement, cold and windy. I then asked him what his notion was as to the etiology of this bit of folklore. He replied that he did not know. I beg to remain, sir, your obedient servant, always willing to aid in the advancement of the sum total of human knowledge. SCIENTIST. Baltimore, January 6. I'LL BET he said: "Etiology, Marse Scientist? Etiology? That's sumpin' we all just ain't studyin' a-tall!" 9 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ In the long, long ago when I was an apprentice on an Eastindiaman--we spelled it that way then; it was in the late eighties--I used to hear great yarns about a famous Pirate Hawkins, a native of Penzance, Cornwall, England, from our old sailmaker, who also said Hawkins was an ancestor of his. Hawkins always chose the worst of weather to make his raids in the English Channel and about the Cornish coast. Thus, I expect, he became a second Flying Dutchman to the weather-wise. I began my sea life in 1889 and ended it in 1920. Happy New Year! W. J. FARRER. Colonial Beach, Va., Jan. 6. WELL, the consensus is--whatever the Research Department may ultimately report--that Hawkins was a devil of a fellow, and again I am disposed to offer my apologies to the most excellent members of his family for ever bringing up the subject. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 2 01:21:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:35:26 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 2:51 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >>>Or that a >>>Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >>>northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? >> >>What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after >>all, not a subset of people from New England)? >> >No, the baseball team "Yankee" (or the defunct pro football team) is >a different item. The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind >involve contexts in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because >he was Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used >in the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) See also the classic sociological study of "Yankee City" by Lloyd Warner and Leo Srole, in which the population of Newburyport, Mass. is divided between "Yankees" (WASPs) and "ethnics" (Jews, Irish, Italians, what have you). --Ben Zimmer From thgellar at NCSU.EDU Wed Mar 2 01:54:37 2005 From: thgellar at NCSU.EDU (Ted Gellar) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:54:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <200503020058.j220wr0L018225@uni05mr.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I > took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a > local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google > show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). It's quite likely that a large chunk of those hits were influenced by an episode of the Fox cartoon Family Guy (now airing on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim). Season 4, episode 4, "A Very Special Family Guy Freakin' Christmas." Stewie, the talking baby-cum-arrogant queen, dreams of having a showdown with Santa Claus (who manifests powers akin to Darth Vader's), wakes up, and accuses "Klaus" of not having the "testicular fortitude to show himself." Ted Gellar NCSU undergrad thgellar at ncsu.edu --- "Perfection has nothing to do with music. If you strive for perfection, you have failed." ::Emma Lou Harris From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 02:06:49 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:06:49 -0500 Subject: "Hawkins Is Coming" Message-ID: Where does this come from, and what date is it? _Jack_ Hawkins? Like the pirate, Captain Jack Hawkins? Or like Jack Frost? http://smith2.sewanee.edu/texts/Other/Hawkins.html _Hawkins_ And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall make the snowflakes fall thick, even in Aredvi deep on the highest tops of the mountains.' Videvdat, Fargard II Around 1912 Junie Sullivan, my grandfather, left his father's farm in Stafford County, Virginia and came five miles across the Rapppahannock River to Fredericksburg. On two lots that cost $10.00 each, he and his brother Burley built a two-storey, four room house. Like the common Irishmen that they were they were also common workers: farmers, railroad hands, carpenters, distillers, roofers, painters. The house was solid and in its original form well-proportioned. By the time I was born in 1942, the house had been expanded along its left or west side. (...) Sometimes when the fresh wood cracked or popped sharply in the stove, Junie would say as flatly as if he were noticing that it was raining, "Hawkins 's coming." It is the only thing I ever remember hearing him say in the evenings around the stove. He did not direct it to anyone. He did not look up to meet their eyes when he said it. He said it, firmly enough to seize the conversation of the room just for the half second it took to say it, firmly enough to seize the center from the edge of the room, but he never moved his eyes from the angling sabre blade of his knife as it worked a groove around the prong of the gravel shooter. "Hawkins 's coming." He might say it once in an evening, a few times in a winter. When he said it, it was always as a slab cracked and the fire began to roar with the released gases. Sometimes when he said it he would grin. Sometimes he winked. He didn't wink often though, because that would make us laugh. Junie's wink was really a blink done with both eyes, but he meant it for a wink and almost everytime he did it, the children would laugh and ask him to do it again. Hawkins was also known as "Jack Hawkins" and for a while, I thought that he was a cousin or other relative of ours who would come to visit. Junie though was the only one who mentioned him, and after a while it began to dawn on me that he was like Jack Frost, the harbinger of cold. Jack Frost seemed a warmer, hearth-friendly kind of being; Hawkins was not so warm. Hawkins was evoked by the fire but was not fire nor associated with fire. The fire was only a reminder to us. Hawkins was always associated with the cold. Hawkins was the essence of cold, of terminal, destructive cold. Hawkins was the cold. The cold always at our backs as we sat facing the fire, the cold that hovered in the dark rooms of the house and reached out as the fire died and we turned out the lights for the day. The cold old men feel when they sit summer evenings in wool sweaters, rubbing fingers that always hurt, the kind of cold Junie felt sawing ice blocks on the river in winter of 1912. Junie pronounced his coming with a flat certainty that never once let enter a shred of doubt about his reality. I knew that Hawkins was real and I knew that when he got here, it meant a closure and a sorting out of things. Hawkins combined the idea of retribution and resolution, of bringing things to an end and of putting things in their right places, a last leveling reduction of effort and posture and vanity under the weight of ice and snow and frost. There was neither dread nor doubt in Junie's voice. He said, "Hawkins 's coming," and as the wind rose and the ashes of the fire sank, I knew he was right. Hawkins had a name, but I knew he was not a man although when I tried to picture him, I thought of the faces of men, particularly the mean ones my aunts had known. One of them had been sent to prison and I sometimes thought Hawkins would look like Ray Pitts, with dark eyes that never smiled. I also thought of Hawkins as very powerful, not strong like a muscular man, but strong like the wind or the cold, a warlock of all winters frozen in a single relentless intent. Hawkins was more than a man, not a monster or terror though, more like God, I suppose, but Junie did not talk much about God. God talk was like house talk; it was the work of women, and Hattie only talked of God when she got scared during thunderstorms. Then she hurried us all into the parlor, pulled down the shades, turned out the light, and repeated, "Be still and know that I am God," each time it thundered. We could not talk or move or play while the storm was going on. Sometimes I would peek, glancing quickly between the curtain and the shade to see if I could see God in the lightning and rain out in the street, but peeking only brought the wrath inside. "Get your eyes away from that window! You hear me child," snapped Hattie. "That lightning come in here and kill us all." I learned the tokens of a kind of theological discourse in that house, and the storm god and Hawkins, the gods of summer and winter, were more real and vivid than all the tales of Sunday School and Church. The finality of Junie's pronouncement of Hawkins' coming gave Hawkins a cosmic, apocalyptic, character. Hawkins was not just the end of the summer, the end of the green leaves and the tomatoes on the vine. Hawkins was the end. The end of everything. Coming like a blanketing, freezing blizzard, covering and annihilating everything in his path in a grip of cold that would still the earth and men upon it. For all that, Hawkins' coming was certain, but in a way not fearsome. Junie did not say it to frighten us. He did not tell us Hawkins would cut our ears off and sell us to Gypsies or stuff us in grass sacks and throw us in the river. Hawkins was coming. Junie knew it. He announced it. It was not commented upon or debated. When the fire popped and Junie said, "Hawkins 's coming," the response was somatic, not verbal. Women shifted on their cushions, pulling their sweaters tighter, or if the women around the fire were my great aunts, they curled their snuff wads to the other side of their lips and released their breath in the long slow sigh that was their way of consenting and commenting at the same time on any final thing. For a moment, the tidal, chthonic flow of talk in the room was reversed. Matriarchy fell silent, and patriarchy claimed its place. Junie squinted at the groove in the hickory, testing its depth with his thumbnail. He set his knife to the other prong and a tiny tress-like spiral, like a curled lock of girl's hair, peeled under the edge. Directly, a child would knock over a stool or toy or one of my aunts would reach for the fire poker to jiggle the wood. Bill got up and walked out to the kitchen. "Anybody want anything while I'm back here," he asked, not waiting for a reply. We were not an intellectual family. No one asked who Hawkins was or what Junie meant by saying he was coming. No one protested that since he hadn't already come he wasn't likely to. Hawkins was real and the reality of Hawkins overwhelmed our sense of self and place and permanence, but no one said these things. No one said, as if to soften the truth, "Yeah, it sure is getting cold outside," or tried to exchange the truth into another more understandable currency. The truth was known by being felt, and I could see it in the complex ritual of soma and gesture that followed in the wake of the pronouncement. When the women shifted in their chairs or the children fussed, when Bill moved from the central parlor to the kitchen and then to the cold, darkened porch at the end of the house, it was not that they were uncomfortable so much as that they were shifting their bodies to bear the weight of a burden they already carried. No one quoted scripture, no one said, "That's right, Junie, death is coming for us all." The truth and weight of Junie's knowledge of Hawkins anteceded all explanations. The long sighs of the women and the wind met in a harmonic of affirmation, a convergence of their being and with the body of the world. Sometimes now, when I hear the wind at night and I am half asleep, I think of old women, and sometimes, not so often, when I hear old women sigh, I feel a chill I do not name. Then, by habit of memory sealed before my childhood was over, like a hand on my shoulder turning me on the path beyond the creek, I hear an old man's voice, Junie, grandfather, "Hawkins 's coming." Hawkins 's coming. All my life I have known Hawkins is coming. Coming and already come and coming still. He has come for Junie and Hattie, Bill and Shine, for Mack Mann, and Lafayette and Smitty and all that tribe of my relatives, Sullivans and Smiths, Withers and Greens, Truslows and Mullens. Men, and women, who wore no particular labels, nameless people almost, but famous to those of us who remember them. Hawkins has come for them and the world they knew and made in the sheds and fields, around the stoves and on the porch. Like a killing frost on the last tomato vines, Hawkins has come for their world and their ways. The old wood houses, the Irish neighborhood, the lawns and sheds, the chicken coops and garages, and cellars and gardens are gone now. The lanes and trees and the rolling earth of the land itself has been leveled. And now when I walk the streets where I played I cannot remember where I am because nothing is left of their world. Hawkins came for them and for a whole way of life and devoured it without a trace save in memory. As a child, I thought everything my father and grandfathers told me was directly and unambiguously true. Living as we did in a practical world of working and making, there was an immediate empirical confirmation of each instruction, "See, Man, set the peg this way, then when the rabbit bites the apple, the trap will fall." "Look here, now. Always be sure to pack salt along the bone in the ham because there is this little pocket where air can get in and spoil it." It was an education of show and tell in woods and fields, sheds and gardens, with tools and animals. I had an implicit trust in their words. When Junie said Hawkins was coming, the only wonder I might have was when or how soon, but never if. They also told me that Santa Claus was coming. I have believed in Hawkins a lot longer than I did in Santa Claus. Now, when I sit by a fire watching orange through amber, the cracking or popping of a log brings a recollected yet adumbrated chill the fire cannot touch, and in the ashening heat of these bones I know Hawkins is coming for me and all my tribe too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1992 Gerald L. Smith, Sewanee, Tennessee From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 2 02:47:54 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:47:54 -0500 Subject: "Hawkins" etymology (rudimentary speculation) In-Reply-To: <2E4B0D50.26E86831.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Warrack's Scots Dictionary (1911) shows <> In Scots even more than in English I believe this word would be conventionally "hawkin". Personification of a "hawkin wind" as "Hawkins" seems plausible enough. However, I have been unable to find any example of the use of this adjective "hawking". In fact I can't find it anywhere else at all, not even in the EDD or the SND. So I don't know whether it could have been applied to a cold wind; maybe it is appropriate only for a "hawkish countenance" or something like that. Anybody recognize the word at all? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 2 02:56:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:56:56 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which > I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context > was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, > Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a > humorously formal alternative to "guts." FWIW, I've always thought the same. > Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? AFAIK, no. -Wilson Gray > Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 03:05:21 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:05:21 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:37 PM -0600 3/1/05, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >seems mostly just informal. > Well, if "legs" was so seen (or so we're told, whence "piano limbs" and such), I'm sure "guts" would have been. I have no idea whether "legs" *really* required euphemistic substitution in the Victorian (or any other) era, though. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 2 03:11:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:11:15 -0500 Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > CEDAR REVOLUTION > > CEDAR REVOLUTION--652 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits > > From the NEW YORK SUN, editorials, 1 March 2005, pg. 8, col. 1: > > _The Cedar Revolution_ > (...) > First the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, then the Purple Revolution of > Iraqis raising their dyed fingers after voting, (Col. 2--ed.) now the > Cedar Revolution against Syrian domination in Lebanon. > > > Actually, I'd go with "Velvet Revolution" in the Czech Republic being > the daddy of all these. > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > Lebanon Government Resigns After Protest > ... The State Department's annual report on human rights abuses around > the world, released > Monday, called the events in Lebanon a "Cedar Revolution" - a moniker > ... > clari.world.gov.politics - Feb 28, 11:30 pm by AP > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp? > edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=13082 > Name that revolution > > Wednesday, March 02, 2005 > > WASHINGTON: The U.S. State Department named anti-Syrian street > demonstrations in Lebanon the "Cedar revolution," in reference to > Lebanon's majestic trees that are celebrated in the Bible as a symbol > of well-being and are at the centerpiece of the national flag. > > Presenting on Monday the State Department's annual Country Reports on > Human Rights Practices for 2004, Undersecretary of State for Global > Affairs Paula Dobriansky said: "In Lebanon, we see growing momentum > for a 'Cedar revolution' that is unifying the citizens of that nation > to the cause of true democracy and freedom from foreign influence." > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > "HOT DOG" WRONG YET AGAIN > > There are very few certainties in life. > > There is death. > > There are taxes. > > And-- > > > METRO, "Food Stuff," 1 March 2005, pg. 14, col. 1: > _Hot dog purists get buff_ > _Bison meat is the newest low-fat fad for frank lovers_(...) > Hot dogs became standard fare at ball parks in 1893. According to the > National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Chris Von de (der--ed.) Ahe, > owner of a St. Louis bar and the St. Louis Browns Chris von der Ahe owned the St, Louis Cardinals, not the Browns, who are now the Baltimore Orioles. -WIlson Gray > , established "little dogs" as the game food. > > But another version of events says the "frankfurter" was dubbed the > "hot daschund sausage" (dachshund?--ed.) by a cartoonist watching a > game at New York City's Polo Grounds. > > While the origins of the modern hot dog is up to popular debate, its > popularity hasn't wavered--consumers spent $1.8 Billion on hot dogs in > supermarkets in 2003, and it's estimated that Americans eat 20 billion > hot dogs a year, says the Council. > (..) > CATHERINE NEW > catherine.new at metro.us > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 03:21:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:21:23 -0500 Subject: "...And the Cabots talk only to God" (awaiting digitized Boston Globe) Message-ID: SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (cut off--sorry - ed.)From _The Proper Bostonians_, by Cleveland Amory, pp. 13-14, 35. Copyright, 1947, by Cleveland Amory. New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc. One small poem which had its genesis in the social aspirations of just two Boston Families has become what is probably the closest thing to a social "folk song" any city ever had. Originally patterned on a toast delivered by an anonymous "Western man" at a Harvard alumni dinner in 1905, it was refined in 1910 by Dr. John Collins Bossidy of Holy Cross to be recited, apparently for all time, as follows: And this is good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots, And the Cabots talk only to God. What does Fred Shapiro have? Why don't I find an early citation on Newspaperarchive? Why don't I see this in the digitized Harvard _Crimson_? Just when in March will we get the digitized Boston _Globe_???? From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 2 03:09:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:09:20 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <7d88f3823f39a723ae0c4d83a6dcb2cb@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >> >>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>humorously formal alternative to "guts." > >FWIW, I've always thought the same. > >> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? > >I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > >> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? > >AFAIK, no. > >-Wilson Gray > >> Today it seems mostly just informal. >> >>-Matt Gordon I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 2 03:33:22 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:33:22 -0500 Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and "rile" lexically separate. Alan Baragona ______________________________________________ From: Ayres, Drummond Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM To: Baragona, Alan Subject: RE: NY Times usage question People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the 3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting riled and waters getting roiled??? From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 2 04:29:52 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:29:52 -0600 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 19:35 -0500 01/3/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind involve contexts >in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because he was >Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used in >the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) I was not aware of this distinction--and I lived north of Boston for 16 years! > In some contexts, that Greenwich, CT stockbroker who commutes to Wall >Street isn't really a Yankee. But that craggy farmer from Vermont >who talks like the guy in the Pepperidge Fahm commercial and has a >profile like that of the (now eroded) Old Man of the Mountains, Somehow I wouldn't describe that as erosion--being far too sudden a collapse. Of course, you are perfectly right, it collapsed as a result of erosion. > or the Mayflower-descended non-rhotic headmistress of a New Hampshire >boarding school, and the laconic Maine lobsterman who mostly just >says "ayuh" are Yankees by any definition (except the baseball one, >and that we're agreeing is a different lexical item). An argument, >perhaps, for a Roschian prototype definition, but I think it really >does involve true autohyponymy, with different cutoff points in >different contexts. So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) Barbara From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 2 04:56:04 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:56:04 +0100 Subject: linguistic performance during office hours Message-ID: Dr. Vera Zegers of Ruhr-Universität Bochum has just published a dissertation that argues that female university students speak with less self-assurance than male students during office hours. Female students tend to “hide their light under a bushel.” So much so, that they alert their professors to weaknesses that would otherwise go unnoticed. And when female students suffer setbacks, they tend to blame themselves, whereas male students blame unfavorable circumstances. For a German summary of Zeger’s findings, see http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/94838/ Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 2 05:13:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:13:49 -0500 Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 In-Reply-To: <99.5927d84d.2f564d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: Here are some instances of the transitive verb "shanghai" (= "recruit as a sailor by force or trickery" or so), from the New York Times: ----------- _New York Daily Times_, 15 March 1854: p. 3: <> ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 24 July 1857: p. 5: <> ---------- _New York Times_, 9 Feb. 1860: p. 2: <<_Richard A. Eddy_, a negro, was then placed on trial, charged with the murder of James Boston .... Eddy well-remembered him as being the individual who kidnapped, or, as it is called, "shanghaied" him on board the _Ellen Austin_ .... Boston, who was one of the most notorious "shanghais," or kidnappers of colored men, ... approached Eddy, ..., and expressed his resolution to "shanghai" him immediately for a new voyage .... [Eddy] plunged the blade of a clasp-knife into Boston's abdomen. .... The jury convicted him of manslaughter in the third degree. Great sympathy was manifested for him in Court, and his sentence, undoubtedly, will be as lenient as the law allows.>> ---------- Note that in the 1857 citation the man who is shanghaied is an accomplice and not a pure victim. None of these early citations refers explicitly to Shanghai (in China) or to a ship bound there. Note that the person doing the shanghaiing is not called a "shanghaier" but rather a "shanghai" (in the 1857 and 1860 examples). The verb "shanghai" is generally thought to be derived from the name of the city Shanghai, probably by way of "shanghai" = "kidnap for a long voyage, such as one to Shanghai", or possibly "shanghai" = "kidnap, as is done in Shanghai". Then one would assume that the noun is "shanghai" = "one who shanghais", perhaps with an intermediate stage such as "shanghai man" (cf. analogous verb "murphy" with noun "murphy man"). An alternative evolution can be considered: "shanghai" [verb] = "kidnap, as a shanghai does", where the noun is primary; the obvious source of the noun would be "shanghai" [noun] = "Shanghai rooster [or hen]", conventional usage in the 1850's AFAIK, but I don't know why the hijacker would be likened to a fancy long-legged fowl. Another possibility is that the primary sense of "shanghai" [verb] was not "put on shipboard by drug or force" but rather "pass off [an ignorant landlubber] as an able seaman" as in the 1857 citation. In this case, the word may have arisen from the contemporary practice of passing off an ordinary chicken (or egg) as a valuable shanghai. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 05:36:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:36:06 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: > >So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee than in Yankeeland...) L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 2 05:59:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:59:28 -0500 Subject: "...And the Cabots talk only to God" (awaiting digitized Boston Globe) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:21:23 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA >edited by B. A. Botkin >Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. >1954 >Pg. ? (cut off--sorry - ed.)From _The Proper Bostonians_, by Cleveland >Amory, pp. 13-14, 35. Copyright, 1947, by Cleveland Amory. New York: E. >P. Dutton & Co., Inc. > >One small poem which had its genesis in the social aspirations of just >two Boston Families has become what is probably the closest thing to a >social "folk song" any city ever had. Originally patterned on a toast >delivered by an anonymous "Western man" at a Harvard alumni dinner in >1905, it was refined in 1910 by Dr. John Collins Bossidy of Holy Cross >to be recited, apparently for all time, as follows: > >And this is good old Boston, >The home of the bean and the cod, >Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots, >And the Cabots talk only to God. > >What does Fred Shapiro have? > >Why don't I find an early citation on Newspaperarchive? The earliest I can find on Proquest is from Feb. 1915, with "speak" instead of "talk" (and with the Cabots and Lowells reversed): ----- Yale Beats Boston Boast In Matching Toasts at Banquet Washington Post, Feb 14, 1915, p. E8 Waterbury, Conn., Feb. 13 -- College men who attended a Yale alumni dinner here last Friday evening decided today the "hit" of the evening. It was made by the Rev. Dr. Samuel Bushnell, who quoted this toast, which he said he had heard recently in Boston: "I'm from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where the Cabots speak only to the Lowells, And the Lowells speak only with God." The speaker said he sent a copy of the toast to Dean Jones and got back the following: "Here's to the town of New Haven, The home of the Truth and the Light. Where God talks to Jones In the very same tones That he uses with Hadley and Dwight." ----- The same story about Bushnell and Jones is repeated in _The Bookman_ of April 1915 (p. 113), with a few adjustments to Bushnell's toast: ----- I come from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells speak only to God. ----- The May issue of _The Bookman_ (p. 225) has this variant: ----- ...good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells walk with God. ----- And this appears in the September issue (p. 80): ----- A correspondent from Bronxville, New York ... offers this as the authentic version of the lines read by Dr. Bushnell: I am from Massachesetts, The land of the sacred cod, Where the Adams's snub the Abbotts And the Cabots walk with God. ----- This "authentic version" is similar to one given in a 1923 New York Times article: ----- AN IMMORTAL POEM. New York Times, Jul 6, 1923, p. 12 We are indebted to our acute contemporary, The Hartford Courant, for vivifying light on the origin and progress of a great New England lyric. The Rev. Dr. Bushnell, an illustrious and venerable name, searches and finds the beginnings and developments of a stanza that has run over continents. According to him, "at the twenty-fifth anniversary dinner of the Harvard Class of 1880 a man from the West recited: "Here's to old Massachusetts, The home of the sacred cod, Where the Adamses vote for Douglas And the Cabots walk with God." Dr. John C. Bossidy was touched by these beautiful lines. He pondered them; and "recited at the annual midwinter dinner of the alumni of the Holy Cross College: "And this is good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod. Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots And the Cabots talk only to God." ----- A July 10, 1927 Los Angeles Times article ("Boston Quatrains") casts further light on the history of the verse, based on the research of Kate Louise Roberts, compiler of _Hoyt's New Cyclopedia of Practical Quotations_. Roberts retells the story of the 1905 quatrain, with the added explanation that the unnamed Westerner's toast was "inspired by the fact that Charles Francis Adams had supported Mr. Douglas, the shoe manufacturer, for Governor." Bossidy's revision was later relayed to Bushnell, who then used it at the 1915 Yale alumni dinner. Roberts' information is based on a letter she received from Bossidy himself. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 08:21:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:21:50 -0500 Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) Message-ID: Thanks to Ben Zimmer for that Boston poem research. I wanted to see what we have before the Boston Globe comes out. O.T.: My web site (www.barrypopik.com) got about 2,500 hits yesterday? -------------------------------------------------------------- BOWERY SPEAK >From today's Village Voice. OED has "kick the bucket" from 1785. OED has "chum" from 1684. No one checks. No one. If you write in to correct the record, it's not published. Even if there's a public editor (and the Village Voice doesn't have one), no one responds. http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0509,bpress,61613,15.html The Bowery Boys and Gals introduced plenty of raw-knuckled slang into the American vocabulary (bender, blowout, chum, kick the bucket), and patronized emerging popular-entertainment forms like melodrama, vaudeville, and freak shows. -------------------------------------------------------------- SCHMEGEGGY OED has 1964 for "schmegeggy." I don't know what the HDAS will have. SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: FOLKLORE, LEGENDS, SAGAS, TRADITIONS, CUSTOMS, SONGS, STORIES, AND SAYINGS OF CITY FOLK edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (copy cut off): II. Schmegeggies. [FOOTNOTE: Collected by Marion Charles Hatch, written by Herman Spector and Hyde Partnow. From "Living Lore of New York City," Manuscripts of the Federal Writers' Project of the Works Progress Administration in New York City, 1939.] -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK IS NOT AMERICA I just added this to my web site. It wasn't coined by Ford Madox Ford in 1927. It's especially apt after the election of 2004. New York City is a blue state and getting bluer. The 1878 citation is on the Cornell Making of America. It's from Emma Lazarus? She of Statue of Liberty "give me your poor..." fame?? New York is not America, being a mirror to the states by Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939) New York: A. & C. Boni 1927 ... ... ... (GOOGLE) City Journal Spring 1995 | Out-of-Step New York by David Brooks It's a cliché that New York City is not America, but never before has New York been so out of step with the rest of the country. Urbanities - Spring 1995. ... www.city-journal.org/html/ 5_2_urbanities-out_of_step.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages ... ... ... June 1878, Scribner's Monthly, pg. 256: In the first place, New York is not America, as Paris is France. ... ... June 1890, Century Illustrated Magazine, pg. 281: "But I say, old fellow, New York is not America, and there's a queer thing you have to be behind the curtain to find out." ... ... September 1899, The Arena (Boston), pg. 378: Happily, New York is not America as Paris is France. ... ... 6 May 1898, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 5: "You know I can scarcely say much about Chicago now, as I came directly to Evanston without stopping," he (English poet Richard Le Gallienne - ed.) said. "But I am looking forward to seeing it with great interest. They say New York is not America at all, and that one finds it much more here, and I think this must be so in a way." ... ... 22 September 1900, New York TImes, pg. BR14: John Lane will shortly publish a new volume by Richard Le Gallienne, something after the style of this author's "Prose Fancies." It will be entitled "Sleeping Beauty, and Other Prose Fancies," after the first essay. It is a "fancy," when Mr. Le Gallienne exclaims on landing in New York, "So, this is America!" As he goes on to note New York is not America, but a cosmopolis at the gates of America. ... ... 1 February 1902, New York TImes, pg. BR11: GILBERT PARKER. His Home in London and His Visit to This Country - A Talk with Him. (...) "Well, of course, New York is not America, is it?" I said, thinking of Chinatown and Little Italy and East Houston Street and the other foreign quarters that have so little in common with Fifth Avenue. "You know, nobody was ever born in New York - not even Richard Croker." ... ... 28 March 1906, New York Times, pg. 8: NEW YORK NOT AMERICA. Mary Mortimer Maxwell Taken to Task by a Brooklynite. To the Editor of The New York Times: I have read with a good deal of interest the bright articles in the Sunday issues of your paper from the pen of an "English WOman in New York," and have also been interested in the replies from her many critics. I do not doubt but that everything she has written about relative to our homes, our manners, our dress, and our tempers she has actually seen in her peregrinations through New York City. Her description of life in our flats, its conveniences and inconveniences, its trials and its temptations, is no doubt true. But then New York City is not America, (indeed it is more cosmopolitan than American,) and he or she who judges our people by the sample of civilization to be found within its borders will in my opinion go very far astray. (...) So, thank God, New York is not the whole of America, and all our families are not reared in narrow apartments where the light trickles in through a hole in an airshaft. T. G. Brooklyn, March 26, 1906. ... ... 23 July 1922, New York Times, pg. 92: WHEN the innocent, guileless, and acquisitive Englishman lands in New York, he is apt to form impressions of America which are fundamentally incorrect and which remain with him during his travels of investigation or on his return. He is not entirely to blame; rather, he is helped to fall into the position by the atmosphere in which he finds himself, even though he is warned again and again that New York is not America, and his candid friends confess in moments of expansion that there is a dim, mysterious country known as the Middle West whose inhabitants refer to the Atlatnic seaboard as the "effete East." (ADS-L ARCHIVES) >From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 4 March 1939, pg. 16, col. 2: Some wag once remarked that good Americans, when they died, went to Paris. Somebody also later discovered that New York was not America, a fortunate exemption, which makes it possible for good New Yorkers, when dead, to go not to Paris but to San Francisco. Only San Francisco rather prefers them alive. >From the NYHT, 6 February 1948, pg. 22, col. 2: _Simeon Strunsky Dies at 68;_ _Writer for "The New York Times"_ _His Unsigned Topical Essays_ _on Editorial Page Won_ _Him Wide Recognition_ (...) He was skeptical of any generalization, and the cliche "New York is not America" moved him repeatedly to demonstrate that it was nothing but America. (...)(Col. 3--ed.) He was the author of several books...and "No Mean City," 1944. The last, a defense of New York against all criticism, expressed his love for the metropolis to which he had grown up and worked. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:15:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:15:11 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Citing a 1935 source, Mencken reported the following year that "guts" was one of the words forbidden from use in motion pictures. According to E. R. Hunter & B. E. Gaines,"Verbal Taboo in a College Community" (AS 1938, pp. 96-107), a survey of nearly 400 students and faculty at "a coeducational college in East Tennessee" in 1936-37 revealed that the use of "guts" was frequently avoided - along with "bastard," "bitch," "belly," "sex," "stink" and "whore," and several others. Words deemed highly offensive today were apparently impossible to ask about. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which > I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context > was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, > Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a > humorously formal alternative to "guts." FWIW, I've always thought the same. > Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? AFAIK, no. -Wilson Gray > Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Mar 2 14:16:14 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:16:14 -0500 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: <> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gordon, Matthew J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: strong like ball I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:17:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:17:06 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Come to think of it, my family did not say "guts" either. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >> >>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>humorously formal alternative to "guts." > >FWIW, I've always thought the same. > >> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? > >I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > >> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? > >AFAIK, no. > >-Wilson Gray > >> Today it seems mostly just informal. >> >>-Matt Gordon I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:25:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:25:32 -0800 Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 Message-ID: These are valuable antedatings, Doug. Interestingly, OED has "shanghai" fowl only from 1853. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some instances of the transitive verb "shanghai" (= "recruit as a sailor by force or trickery" or so), from the New York Times: ----------- _New York Daily Times_, 15 March 1854: p. 3: > ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 24 July 1857: p. 5: > ---------- _New York Times_, 9 Feb. 1860: p. 2: <<_Richard A. Eddy_, a negro, was then placed on trial, charged with the murder of James Boston .... Eddy well-remembered him as being the individual who kidnapped, or, as it is called, "shanghaied" him on board the _Ellen Austin_ .... Boston, who was one of the most notorious "shanghais," or kidnappers of colored men, ... approached Eddy, ..., and expressed his resolution to "shanghai" him immediately for a new voyage .... [Eddy] plunged the blade of a clasp-knife into Boston's abdomen. .... The jury convicted him of manslaughter in the third degree. Great sympathy was manifested for him in Court, and his sentence, undoubtedly, will be as lenient as the law allows.>> ---------- Note that in the 1857 citation the man who is shanghaied is an accomplice and not a pure victim. None of these early citations refers explicitly to Shanghai (in China) or to a ship bound there. Note that the person doing the shanghaiing is not called a "shanghaier" but rather a "shanghai" (in the 1857 and 1860 examples). The verb "shanghai" is generally thought to be derived from the name of the city Shanghai, probably by way of "shanghai" = "kidnap for a long voyage, such as one to Shanghai", or possibly "shanghai" = "kidnap, as is done in Shanghai". Then one would assume that the noun is "shanghai" = "one who shanghais", perhaps with an intermediate stage such as "shanghai man" (cf. analogous verb "murphy" with noun "murphy man"). An alternative evolution can be considered: "shanghai" [verb] = "kidnap, as a shanghai does", where the noun is primary; the obvious source of the noun would be "shanghai" [noun] = "Shanghai rooster [or hen]", conventional usage in the 1850's AFAIK, but I don't know why the hijacker would be likened to a fancy long-legged fowl. Another possibility is that the primary sense of "shanghai" [verb] was not "put on shipboard by drug or force" but rather "pass off [an ignorant landlubber] as an able seaman" as in the 1857 citation. In this case, the word may have arisen from the contemporary practice of passing off an ordinary chicken (or egg) as a valuable shanghai. -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:32:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:32:45 -0800 Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) Message-ID: My earliest "schmegeggy" - unearthed 35 years ago - is this very one. Leo Gorcey's "Bowery Boys" used *all* of the words cited by the _Voice_. What more proof do you need, Barry? You nitpicker. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Ben Zimmer for that Boston poem research. I wanted to see what we have before the Boston Globe comes out. O.T.: My web site (www.barrypopik.com) got about 2,500 hits yesterday? -------------------------------------------------------------- BOWERY SPEAK >From today's Village Voice. OED has "kick the bucket" from 1785. OED has "chum" from 1684. No one checks. No one. If you write in to correct the record, it's not published. Even if there's a public editor (and the Village Voice doesn't have one), no one responds. http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0509,bpress,61613,15.html The Bowery Boys and Gals introduced plenty of raw-knuckled slang into the American vocabulary (bender, blowout, chum, kick the bucket), and patronized emerging popular-entertainment forms like melodrama, vaudeville, and freak shows. -------------------------------------------------------------- SCHMEGEGGY OED has 1964 for "schmegeggy." I don't know what the HDAS will have. SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: FOLKLORE, LEGENDS, SAGAS, TRADITIONS, CUSTOMS, SONGS, STORIES, AND SAYINGS OF CITY FOLK edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (copy cut off): II. Schmegeggies. [FOOTNOTE: Collected by Marion Charles Hatch, written by Herman Spector and Hyde Partnow. From "Living Lore of New York City," Manuscripts of the Federal Writers' Project of the Works Progress Administration in New York City, 1939.] -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK IS NOT AMERICA I just added this to my web site. It wasn't coined by Ford Madox Ford in 1927. It's especially apt after the election of 2004. New York City is a blue state and getting bluer. The 1878 citation is on the Cornell Making of America. It's from Emma Lazarus? She of Statue of Liberty "give me your poor..." fame?? New York is not America, being a mirror to the states by Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939) New York: A. & C. Boni 1927 ... ... ... (GOOGLE) City Journal Spring 1995 | Out-of-Step New York by David Brooks It's a clich� that New York City is not America, but never before has New York been so out of step with the rest of the country. Urbanities - Spring 1995. ... www.city-journal.org/html/ 5_2_urbanities-out_of_step.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages ... ... ... June 1878, Scribner's Monthly, pg. 256: In the first place, New York is not America, as Paris is France. ... ... June 1890, Century Illustrated Magazine, pg. 281: "But I say, old fellow, New York is not America, and there's a queer thing you have to be behind the curtain to find out." ... ... September 1899, The Arena (Boston), pg. 378: Happily, New York is not America as Paris is France. ... ... 6 May 1898, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 5: "You know I can scarcely say much about Chicago now, as I came directly to Evanston without stopping," he (English poet Richard Le Gallienne - ed.) said. "But I am looking forward to seeing it with great interest. They say New York is not America at all, and that one finds it much more here, and I think this must be so in a way." ... ... 22 September 1900, New York TImes, pg. BR14: John Lane will shortly publish a new volume by Richard Le Gallienne, something after the style of this author's "Prose Fancies." It will be entitled "Sleeping Beauty, and Other Prose Fancies," after the first essay. It is a "fancy," when Mr. Le Gallienne exclaims on landing in New York, "So, this is America!" As he goes on to note New York is not America, but a cosmopolis at the gates of America. ... ... 1 February 1902, New York TImes, pg. BR11: GILBERT PARKER. His Home in London and His Visit to This Country - A Talk with Him. (...) "Well, of course, New York is not America, is it?" I said, thinking of Chinatown and Little Italy and East Houston Street and the other foreign quarters that have so little in common with Fifth Avenue. "You know, nobody was ever born in New York - not even Richard Croker." ... ... 28 March 1906, New York Times, pg. 8: NEW YORK NOT AMERICA. Mary Mortimer Maxwell Taken to Task by a Brooklynite. To the Editor of The New York Times: I have read with a good deal of interest the bright articles in the Sunday issues of your paper from the pen of an "English WOman in New York," and have also been interested in the replies from her many critics. I do not doubt but that everything she has written about relative to our homes, our manners, our dress, and our tempers she has actually seen in her peregrinations through New York City. Her description of life in our flats, its conveniences and inconveniences, its trials and its temptations, is no doubt true. But then New York City is not America, (indeed it is more cosmopolitan than American,) and he or she who judges our people by the sample of civilization to be found within its borders will in my opinion go very far astray. (...) So, thank God, New York is not the whole of America, and all our families are not reared in narrow apartments where the light trickles in through a hole in an airshaft. T. G. Brooklyn, March 26, 1906. ... ... 23 July 1922, New York Times, pg. 92: WHEN the innocent, guileless, and acquisitive Englishman lands in New York, he is apt to form impressions of America which are fundamentally incorrect and which remain with him during his travels of investigation or on his return. He is not entirely to blame; rather, he is helped to fall into the position by the atmosphere in which he finds himself, even though he is warned again and again that New York is not America, and his candid friends confess in moments of expansion that there is a dim, mysterious country known as the Middle West whose inhabitants refer to the Atlatnic seaboard as the "effete East." (ADS-L ARCHIVES) >From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 4 March 1939, pg. 16, col. 2: Some wag once remarked that good Americans, when they died, went to Paris. Somebody also later discovered that New York was not America, a fortunate exemption, which makes it possible for good New Yorkers, when dead, to go not to Paris but to San Francisco. Only San Francisco rather prefers them alive. >From the NYHT, 6 February 1948, pg. 22, col. 2: _Simeon Strunsky Dies at 68;_ _Writer for "The New York Times"_ _His Unsigned Topical Essays_ _on Editorial Page Won_ _Him Wide Recognition_ (...) He was skeptical of any generalization, and the cliche "New York is not America" moved him repeatedly to demonstrate that it was nothing but America. (...)(Col. 3--ed.) He was the author of several books...and "No Mean City," 1944. The last, a defense of New York against all criticism, expressed his love for the metropolis to which he had grown up and worked. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:37:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:37:36 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: <> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gordon, Matthew J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: strong like ball I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 14:58:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:58:58 -0500 Subject: (Crosspost) Web resource on British dialects Message-ID: This looks like it should be very useful to those who (unlike me) have the appropriate software to take advantage of it... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:27:45 -0800 Sender: The discussion list for Language and the Law From: "C.J. Storey-Whyte" Subject: [FL-LIST] dialects This is a great source for anyone interested in British dialects: http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/ ===== Dr C.Storey-Whyte, Forensic Analysis of Recordings and Communications, Old Police Station, Kington, Herefordshire HR5 3DP, UK tel: 01544 231965 (+44) fax: 01544 231934 (+44) mobile: 07743 612015 (+44) AUSTRALIA 0408 519318 (+61) US: (tollfree) 1-888-504-0152 www.audiolex.co.uk www.audiolex-australia.com www.forensically-speaking.co.uk --- end forwarded text From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 2 18:12:29 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:12:29 -0500 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in “G” Others they are wand’rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 2 18:30:17 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:30:17 -0500 Subject: hang-up Message-ID: >From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among the prisoners on Riker's Island: Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have always been a jailhouse reality. The article began on p. 1 or the A section, and the continuation filled two pages of the Metro (B) section. The quotation is from page B6, col. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 2 18:47:05 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:47:05 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <30e6f7f30ecb01.30ecb0130e6f7f@nyu.edu> Message-ID: I did an entry for that one yesterday. I was glad to come across the Times use because I already had two "hang-up = suicide" in the database and didn't feel like they were quite enough. The earliest use I found was a 26 Mar. 1982 article titled "Jargon of Correction Officers" in the Times. No doubt Barry will antedate it. The other cite came from a Newsday datelined Queens, so the term could be NYC-specific. http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/hang_up/ Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 2, 2005, at 13:30, George Thompson wrote: >> From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among > the prisoners on Riker's Island: > Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have > always been a jailhouse reality. > > The article began on p. 1 or the A section, and the continuation filled > two pages of the Metro (B) section. The quotation is from page B6, > col. 1 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 2 18:57:27 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:57:27 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <30e6f7f30ecb01.30ecb0130e6f7f@nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:30:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > >From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among > the prisoners on Riker's Island: > Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have > always been a jailhouse reality. This is in HDAS, with a first quote of 1974 (in reference to NYC). The verb is older still: 1950 ["1942-49" in HDAS dating] Goldin et al. _Dict. Amer. Underworld Lingo_ 91: _Hang up_...To commit suicide by hanging. I have a feeling that I've seen the noun earlier as well, but I can't place it right now. Tom? Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 2 19:09:48 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:09:48 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <20050302185727.GA15042@panix.com> Message-ID: I should have noted the 1974 cite in HDAS does exist, but as it is the only one supporting that definition of the word, we now have two more for the noun and two for the verb (since the 1950 Goldin cite is not in HDAS vol. II). Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 2, 2005, at 13:57, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:30:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > This is in HDAS, with a first quote of 1974 (in reference to NYC). The > verb is older still: > > 1950 ["1942-49" in HDAS dating] Goldin et al. _Dict. Amer. Underworld > Lingo_ 91: _Hang up_...To commit suicide by hanging. > > I have a feeling that I've seen the noun earlier as well, but I can't > place it right now. Tom? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 20:01:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:01:05 EST Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: This bit of food slang for "nuts" or "off your rocker" or "crazy" is in today's New York Press. Only two Google hits, with one from England? ... ... _http://www.nypress.com/18/9/mail/themail.cfm_ (http://www.nypress.com/18/9/mail/themail.cfm) Wow, has the cheese fallen off of this guy's cracker ("Idiot Patrol" 2/16)? Isn't Brodeur usually the guy who throws the word "fascist" into every other sentence? Now he's a law-and-order enthusiast who thinks the prison system is too lax? Where does he get his 99 percent statistic? I'm with him on the wasteful horror that is the war on drugs, and I don't see the logic in giving violent felons weight-training equipment, but really, is the guy's gimmick supposed to be that he's so smart and brave that he can't articulate a single coherent thought? Anthony Fisher, Brooklyn ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _fifilazoid's Quizzes_ (http://www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/) ... PICS. THE EXCRUEIATINGLY DIFFICULT DB Z GT QUIZ W\PICS. has the cheese fallen off your cracker? FUNNY w\pics. KURAMA OR TRUNKS W\PICS. ... www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/ - 11k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:eIEOj7sf9ToJ:www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/+"cheese+fallen+off"+and+cracker&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/) ... _ManchesterOnline - Football - Manchester City_ (http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/manchestercity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759) ... Slow Joe from ARWICK(snigger snigger),cheese fallen off yer cracker?Keep coming on and humouring us! Ron Jeremy(big blue), Miami 03/12/03 at 15:14. ... www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/ manchestercity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759 - 39k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_PPFwQi3FXQJ:www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/mancheste rcity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759+"cheese+fallen+off"+and+cracker&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/manchestercity/comments/vi ew.html?story_id=74759) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Wed Mar 2 20:09:56 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:09:56 +0000 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 2 20:47:06 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:47:06 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? Anyone have thoughts on that? Thanks! -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 2 21:06:16 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:06:16 -0500 Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA 2006: Call for Papers Message-ID: John Morse asked me to post this to the list: At the meeting of the Lexicography Discussion Group last December, I suggested, and it was agreed, that the theme for December 2005 meeting would be 200 Years of American Dictionary Making, to recognize the bicentennial of Noah Webster’s Compendious Dictionary, which was first published early in 1806. As I explained at that meeting, I see the Preface to that dictionary as one of its most significant aspects, as it constitutes a first attempt to lay out the mission of lexicography in the new country. Three particular themes in the Preface seem especially to have stood the test of time: emphasis on analyzing usage over abstract theory, the recognition and acceptance that language changes, and the prediction of the worldwide use of English. Hence, in recognition of the 200th anniversary of this important document, the Discussion Group seeks papers that provide examinations of significant persons, documents, or accomplishments that relate to one of these themes – or to any other notable aspect of North American dictionary making in the past 200 years, Papers noting trends, making predictions, pointing out unsung heroes, or describing forgotten classics of the past 200 years of dictionary-making will also be welcome. If you plan to attend this year’s MLA (in Washington D.C.) and are interested in presenting a paper at this session, please submit an abstract to me at jmorse at m-w.com by March 15. If you would like to present a paper but can’t make that deadline, please contact me and we can discuss possible alternatives. Thank you. John Morse Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 2 21:09:01 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:09:01 -0500 Subject: Correction Message-ID: The subject line for the previous e-mail should, of course, have read: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA 2005. I'm very sorry for the error. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 21:54:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:54:00 -0800 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: Thanks for the plug, George. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Sdewalks of New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in �G� Others they are wand�rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 21:56:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:56:32 -0800 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: I heard another distinguished historian on TV a week or so ago explain that "OK" comes from "Old Kinderhook." I guess they hear the story in college and never bother to question it. I mean, those *are* the initials, right? JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Sdewalks of New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in �G� Others they are wand�rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:53:10 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:53:10 -0500 Subject: fideo (1890) Message-ID: Seen in today's Poughkeepsie Journal: Marquez, whose parents immigrated directly to Chicago from Mexico, said he’s seen variation of fideo dishes in Spain and all over Mexico. He said La Moderna, which is made in Mexico, is another popular fideo brand. He said he’s certain fideo recipes predate the yellow box’s “since 1910.” “Fideo is Tex-Mex for pasta,” Poughkeepsie Journal, March 2, 2005, p 5D Robert S. Peabody wrote in Harper's New Monthly Magazine, July 1890, p 238: The Mexican cooking, though Americans have a prejudice against it, is exceedingly appetizing, but for most palates too highly peppered, chile entering largely into the composition of every dish. Yet it is a rare good feast one can have by ordering the following bill of fare: Sopa de Fido. Gallina con Chile. Tamales. Frijoles Mejicana. Enchiladas. Chile con Carne. Tortillas. Salza de Chile. Pastel de Limon. Granadas de China. Cafe. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:54:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:54:17 -0500 Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: roil, v. def. 1 = disturb, unsettle (as waters) def. 2 = rile; vex rile, v. def. 1 = vex def. 2 = roil; disturb, unsettle (of waters) So in WBD, W11, RHWCD, AHD (no usage note). Alan Baragona on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 10:33 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Alan Baragona >Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York = >Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and = >"rile" lexically separate. > >Alan Baragona=20 > >______________________________________________=20 >From: Ayres, Drummond =20 >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM=20 >To: Baragona, Alan=20 >Subject: RE: NY Times usage question=20 > >People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the = >time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- = >and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the = >3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, = >that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the = >desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such = >matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the = >assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) = >preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of = >the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I = >take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting = >riled and waters getting roiled??? From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:55:40 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:55:40 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:54:17 PM Message From: Barnhart Subject: Re: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question To: Alan Baragona Cc: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU roil, v. def. 1 = disturb, unsettle (as waters) def. 2 = rile; vex rile, v. def. 1 = vex def. 2 = roil; disturb, unsettle (of waters) So in WBD, W11, RHWCD, AHD (no usage note). Alan Baragona on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 10:33 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Alan Baragona >Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York = >Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and = >"rile" lexically separate. > >Alan Baragona=20 > >______________________________________________=20 >From: Ayres, Drummond =20 >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM=20 >To: Baragona, Alan=20 >Subject: RE: NY Times usage question=20 > >People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the = >time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- = >and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the = >3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, = >that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the = >desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such = >matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the = >assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) = >preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of = >the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I = >take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting = >riled and waters getting roiled??? From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:04:35 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:04:35 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? In-Reply-To: <4226264A.5080908@netscape.net> Message-ID: This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. “Teens” probably didn’t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as adults. I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen’s “Northanger Abbey,” in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly presented as that category. Part of the interest for this novel is that it is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is referred to as a “guy.” (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see what I’m sayin’. In querying my classes, over several years, they (male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female groups being referred to as “guys,” by either male or female speakers. But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. Jim Stalker Patti J. Kurtz writes: > I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question > is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer > to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two > guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? > > Anyone have thoughts on that? > > Thanks! > -- > > Dr. Patti J. Kurtz > > Assistant Professor, English > > Director of the Writing Center > > Minot State University > > Minot, ND 58707 > > > > Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. > > > > Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims > that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? > > > > Foster: But we are RIGHT! > > > > Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 01:53:37 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:53:37 -0500 Subject: Shanghai chickens etc., 1852 In-Reply-To: <20050302142532.41588.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >OED has "shanghai" fowl only from 1853. A little earlier from NYT: ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 2 Oct. 1852: p. 2: <> ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 19 Oct. 1852: p. 2: <<_Shanghai Sheep._ -- Sheep all the way from China, good reader! Something of a novelty that. We are accustomed, thanks to Yankee adventure, to the terms, Shanghai chickens, Shanghai eggs, &c., but we had no idea that the subjects of the Brother of the Sun and fifty-third Cousin of the Moon had any knowledge of the value of the wool clip or the taste of mutton chops. ....>> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 02:15:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:15:38 -0500 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they > had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a "guy." This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 years. -- Doug Wilson From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 3 02:17:22 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:17:22 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <200503022104.764422670b5b7@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > > This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. “Teens” probably >didn’t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, >especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, >members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally >went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as >adults. > Quite right, of course, which makes writing about them from our vantage point doubly difficult. > I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social >context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be >reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, >as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen’s “Northanger >Abbey,” in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly >presented as that category. > And Little Women, though memory fails me as to how old the girls are in that book. But yes, a great point; young adult literature as we define it, didn't really exist until the very late 19th and early 20th century. Which limits the resources a writer like me has for uncovering teen language from that time period. All of which makes writing young adult historical fiction a massive undertaking. But thanks for the insight, Jim! Patti! > Part of the interest for this novel is that it >is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on >those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from >Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she >is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a “guy.” (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I >thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see >what I’m sayin’. In querying my classes, over several years, they >(male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female >groups being referred to as “guys,” by either male or female speakers. >But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. > > >Jim Stalker > > > > >Patti J. Kurtz writes: > > > >>I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question >>is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer >>to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two >>guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? >> >>Anyone have thoughts on that? >> >>Thanks! >>-- >> >>Dr. Patti J. Kurtz >> >>Assistant Professor, English >> >>Director of the Writing Center >> >>Minot State University >> >>Minot, ND 58707 >> >> >> >>Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. >> >> >> >>Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims >>that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? >> >> >> >>Foster: But we are RIGHT! >> >> >> >>Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. >> >> >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:19:55 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:19:55 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <20050302141706.11909.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My family did, but then yall (plural, no question about it), have some sense of my sociolinguistic heritage: KY, not high toned, as we would have said. I didn't learn about intestinal fortitude until I got to UNC. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > Come to think of it, my family did not say "guts" either. > > JL > > Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >> >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>>Subject: strong like ball >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>-------- >>> >>>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >>> >>>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>>humorously formal alternative to "guts." >> >>FWIW, I've always thought the same. >> >>> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? >> >>I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >>time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. >> >>> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >>> >>>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? >> >>AFAIK, no. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >>> Today it seems mostly just informal. >>> >>>-Matt Gordon > > I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were > vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 3 02:22:32 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:22:32 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <200503022115.374226735e35d@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> >> > >This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >years. > > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be ambiguous? Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? Patti >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:26:36 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:26:36 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <20050302143737.18205.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the following to be figurative/metaphorical? To fret one's guts:...to worry To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, merciless. Farmer and Henley: "gut" Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. > In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. > > JL > > "Baker, John" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: > > <> > > Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: > > <> > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gordon, Matthew J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: strong like ball > > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:33:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:33:28 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: Stalker is right. There were no "teens" until the 1920s or '30s. "Guy" is possible, but I'd recommend "fellow." JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. “Teens” probably didn’t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as adults. I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen’s “Northanger Abbey,” in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly presented as that category. Part of the interest for this novel is that it is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is referred to as a “guy.” (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see what I’m sayin’. In querying my classes, over several years, they (male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female groups being referred to as “guys,” by either male or female speakers. But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. Jim Stalker Patti J. Kurtz writes: > I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question > is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer > to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two > guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? > > Anyone have thoughts on that? > > Thanks! > -- > > Dr. Patti J. Kurtz > > Assistant Professor, English > > Director of the Writing Center > > Minot State University > > Minot, ND 58707 > > > > Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. > > > > Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims > that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? > > > > Foster: But we are RIGHT! > > > > Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:41:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:41:44 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: My guess is that "guy" was indeed probably ambiguous into the 1890s. George Ade's "Artie" (1896) uses it frequently as a synonym for "fellow." Stephen Crane's "Maggie, A Girl of the Streets" (1892) doesn't. (The former is set in Chicago, the latter in NYC.) I've never seen it in a Civil War letter, BTW. And Jim - the word "dude" in Jane Austen ? Not possible. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> >> > >This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >years. > > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be ambiguous? Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? Patti >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:46:03 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:46:03 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC (was FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX) In-Reply-To: <99.5927d84d.2f564d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM writes: I > suggest, however, that most people who use "generic" in the Michael-Larry way have > in fact been from the outset strongly influenced by the legal sense of the > term--that is, they are in realilty attempting to use it in a quasi-legal fashion > without understanding the sociolegal implications of their usage. And this > leads to all sorts of confusion. > I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie cups; the South will rise again: syndrome? Jim James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:54:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:54:05 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: "Guts, but no bowels" may appear problematic in the light of later usage, but I'm dubious about figuration here since "bowels" were traditionally associated with compassion while literal "guts" were mere bodily organs. "Fret one's guts," if figurative, is only barely so. Worry often causes stomach-aches. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the following to be figurative/metaphorical? To fret one's guts:...to worry To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, merciless. Farmer and Henley: "gut" Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. > In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. > > JL > > "Baker, John" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: > > <> > > Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: > > <> > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gordon, Matthew J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: strong like ball > > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:54:55 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:54:55 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original post, should anyone want to know. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >> >> So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >> by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >> father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) >> > > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds > that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make > them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee > than in Yankeeland...) > > L > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109741902"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 02:59:20 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:59:20 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in the figurative sense. -Wilson Gray On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the > following to be figurative/metaphorical? > > To fret one's guts:...to worry > To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, > merciless. > > Farmer and Henley: "gut" > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >> sense should please do so. >> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. >> >> JL >> >> "Baker, John" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >> Making of America: >> >> <> >> >> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >> the point: >> >> <> >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >> Behalf >> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: strong like ball >> >> >> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >> fortitude"). >> >> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >> seems mostly just informal. >> >> -Matt Gordon >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:04:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:04:13 -0800 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: I'd guess that the redcoats would have considered the ur-Yankee to live just outside of semi-civilized Boston and eat salt cod for breakfast. Vermont was part of New York in those days, and I propose taking it back ! JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original post, should anyone want to know. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >> >> So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >> by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >> father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) >> > > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds > that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make > them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee > than in Yankeeland...) > > L > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109741902"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:09:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:09:08 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: My grandmother knew "greedy-gut" too, but I only recall her saying it once or twice. "Guts," however, in the plural and with no mitigating modifiers, was not in her active vocabulary. Her synonyms were "nerve" and, where physiology was concerned, "intestines" for people and "innards" for poultry. I don't recall my grandfather saying "guts," either, and I know my mother does not. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in the figurative sense. -Wilson Gray On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the > following to be figurative/metaphorical? > > To fret one's guts:...to worry > To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, > merciless. > > Farmer and Henley: "gut" > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >> sense should please do so. >> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. >> >> JL >> >> "Baker, John" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >> Making of America: >> >> <> >> >> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >> the point: >> >> <> >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >> Behalf >> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: strong like ball >> >> >> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >> fortitude"). >> >> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >> seems mostly just informal. >> >> -Matt Gordon >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 03:18:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:18:12 -0500 Subject: Sdewalks of New York In-Reply-To: <20050302215632.38885.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I heard another distinguished historian on TV a week or so ago >explain that "OK" comes from "Old Kinderhook." > >I guess they hear the story in college and never bother to question >it. I mean, those *are* the initials, right? > >JL Well, as Read himself pointed out, that historian should get part credit, anyway (although perhaps not a passing grade, depending on the curve), since Old Kinderhook, Martin Van Buren, and the Tammany OK Club are part of the "trajectory" of the word--unlike Cherokee "okeh" and whatever is volunteered by those who cry Wolof... Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:20:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:20:43 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: >From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : He's not running on all 8 cylinders. Doesn't have both oars in the water. Few cans shy of a six pack! Few bytes short of a K. Driving with one wheel in the sand. It's a shame when first cousins marry. He's running on a low mixture. The cheese fell off his cracker long ago. Ibid., April 25 : He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. Not playing with a full deck? Heck, he doesn't even have a full card. He's as sharp as a bowling ball. Butt ugly & dumb to match. He's got a room-temperature IQ in degrees Celsuis. A bit slow out of the gate. He's doin' 30 on the freeway. He's got it floored in neutral. JL, not familiar with any of these. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 03:34:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0500 Subject: Cheese quote by Charles de Gaulle; Good Health & Bad Memory (Bergman/Schweitzer) Message-ID: "HOW CAN YOU GOVERN A COUNTRY WHICH HAS 246 VARIETIES OF CHEESE?" --Charles De Gaulle. In AM-NEW YORK, EATING WELL, 2 March 2005, pg. 26. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this from 1962. Various web results have "kinds" for "varieties," and the numbers are 246, 256, and 265. The earliest date seen is 1951. (GOOGLE GROUPS) The French will only be united under the threat of danger. Nobody can simply bring together a country that has 265 kinds of cheese. - Charles A.J.M de Gaulle, Speech, 1951 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Random Quotations "How can one be expected to govern a country with 246 kinds of cheese?" -Charles de Gaulle "Christopher Robin Hood: He steals from the rich and gives to the ... alt.quotations - Feb 26 1993, 11:23 pm by Andy Whitfield - 6 messages - 6 authors (GOOGLE) my abode » New Quotes I just added a few random quotes from the Quotationary to my quote script at ... a country that has 256 kinds of cheese?” - Charles de Gaulle, 1964 “What a ... www.arador.org/archives/2004/04/25/new-quotes/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ROUND ABOUT with ART RYON; A New Continental Concept Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 5, 1964. p. A24 (2 pages) Second page: Quote from Premier Charles de Gaulle: "How can you rule a nation that has 246 kinds of cheese?" Quotations New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1967. p. 215 (1 page): Charles de Gaulle, as quoted in a new book--"The General's Tragedy"--by Jean-Raymond Tournoux: "It is impossible in normal times to rally a nation that has 265 kinds of cheese." Scale Weighs a Fly's Tongue HAL BOYLE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 6, 1968. p. E3 (1 page): Quotable notables: "How do you expect to govern a country that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"--Gen. Charles de Gaulle, of France. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Frederick Post Friday, May 20, 1966 Frederick, Maryland ...that has 246 KINDS OF CHEESE" Gen. CHARLES DE GAULLE. Facts to amaze your.....the red carpet for French PresiDEnt CHARLES DE GAULLE in happy appreciation.. -------------------------------------------------------------- "HAPPINESS IS NOTHING MORE THAN GOOD HEALTH AND A BAD MEMORY." Albert Schweitzer. In AM-NEW YORK, HEALTH, 2 March 2005, pg. 20. Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Did Albert Schweitzer or Ingrid Bergman say this? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Topsy Turvy Science. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 12, 1923. p. 6 (1 page): The scientists seem bent on reversing all established concepts and ideas pertaining to everyday matters. Comes a London savant who lists good memory as a sign of bad health and bad memory as a symptom of good health--to the confusion of a generation that, from its cradle, has been taught the opposite. "One who remembers everything, especially concerning the past," says the Londoner, "is physically in a bad way." Word Gems of Others JOAN WINCHELL. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 3, 1959. p. D4 (1 page): FAMOUS FOLKS (and their famous sayings)--"Let Western Union carry the messages" (Moss Hart)..."It's always too soon to quit" (Henry Ford)..."Happiness is nothing more than good health and a bad memory" (Dr. Albert Schweitzer)..."Ninety per cent of all millionaires became so by investing in real estate" (Andrew Carnegie). "ALL HUMAN WISDOM is summed up in two words: wait and hope" (Alexandre Dumas)..."All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" (Edmund Burke). UNKNOWN (unfortunately)--"The best way to help yourself is to help others"..."He is strongest who has conquered self"..."Serving others is the way we pay rent for our lease on life"..."The poor we have always with us because the rich go away for the summer and winter." INDIAN PRAYER--"Grant that I may not criticize my neighbor until I have walked a mile in his mocassins." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Post Standard Friday, June 05, 1987 Syracuse, New York ...Wish We'd Said Thai Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....to hundreds of people who own cats. GOOD for Them Officials at the Medical.. Mountain Democrat Monday, October 26, 1987 Placerville, California ...odds AND frozen ends Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....chart here finds September isn't a GOOD indicator of the total rain year.. Frederick Post Tuesday, September 20, 1994 Frederick, Maryland ...A-2. GOOD morning Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....four years he said. "She's not that GOOD of a baker so I jumped in." This.. Frederick Post Monday, March 27, 1995 Frederick, Maryland ...A2. GOOD morning Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. -IngridBergman.....welfare reform proposal AND a host of HEALTH care bills are also on the agenda.. Wellsboro Gazette Wednesday, April 10, 1996 Wellsboro, Pennsylvania ...for recyling -Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. -Ingrid Bergman.....AND shall maintain its system in GOOD repair AND working order Section 8.. The Columbus Evening Dispatch Monday, July 21, 1997 Columbus, Ohio ...Thought for today: "Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY." Bergman.....Lotto: The Kicker: 420038 ALMANAC GOOD morning. Today is Monday, July 21.. Wellsboro Gazette Wednesday, October 14, 1998 Wellsboro, Pennsylvania ...is too GOOD to receive. Fuller is GOOD HEALTH AND BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....Steven AND Michelle Foster, Jerome AND Jessica Werkheiser; one sister AND.. Pg. 6, col. 5: --Happiness is goof health and bad memory. --Ingrid Bergman From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 03:47:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:47:55 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:54 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: >I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this >site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from >the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for >defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me >a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original >post, should anyone want to know. > >Jim I would. I just tried an archive search and didn't come up with it, although there was one of Barry's involving "R U A Yankee" diagnostics from the eponymous monthly that looked promising for a moment. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 03:59:26 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:59:26 -0500 Subject: Cheese quote by Charles de Gaulle (1958, 1962) Message-ID: "De Gaulle" and "cheese" turns up a lot of hits. But I searched some more and dusted the Oxford Dictionaty of Quotations (2004). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) De Gaulle Surprises the Doubters; Many expected him to be a man on horseback, but his first month as Premier has shown him to be a man of moderation, acutely conscious of history's judgment. De Gau!le Surprises the Doubters By NICHOLAS WAHLPARIS.. New York Times (1857-Current. Jun 29, 1958. p. SM9 (4 pages): Fourth page: "How can one conceive of a one-party system," he is reported to have said, "in a country that has over 200 varieties of cheeses." Entertainment; Tender Gripes in Wine Country Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1962. p. C9 (1 page): DE GAULLE SAID recently, "How can you govern a country with 246 varieties of cheese?" From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 04:09:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:09:18 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, tempora! O, mores! -Wilson On Mar 2, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My grandmother knew "greedy-gut" too, but I only recall her saying it > once or twice. "Guts," however, in the plural and with no mitigating > modifiers, was not in her active vocabulary. Her synonyms were > "nerve" and, where physiology was concerned, "intestines" for people > and "innards" for poultry. I don't recall my grandfather saying > "guts," either, and I know my mother does not. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born > in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in > the figurative sense. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder >> the >> following to be figurative/metaphorical? >> >> To fret one's guts:...to worry >> To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, >> merciless. >> >> Farmer and Henley: "gut" >> >> Jim Stalker >> >> Jonathan Lighter writes: >> >>> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >>> sense should please do so. >>> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find >>> much. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> "Baker, John" wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Baker, John" >>> Subject: Re: strong like ball >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> --------- >>> >>> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >>> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >>> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >>> Making of America: >>> >>> <> >>> >>> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >>> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >>> the point: >>> >>> <> >>> >>> >>> John Baker >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >>> Behalf >>> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: strong like ball >>> >>> >>> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >>> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >>> fortitude"). >>> >>> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >>> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >>> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >>> >>> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >>> seems mostly just informal. >>> >>> -Matt Gordon >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >>> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >>> >> >> >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English >> Michigan State University >> > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 04:16:37 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:16:37 -0500 Subject: "Western Union" by Moss Hart (1954) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro found earlier for the "Western Union" quote. I thought I'd search it with "Moss Hart," as per a previous post. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Van Wert Times Bulletin Thursday, August 26, 1954 Van Wert, Ohio ...AND if you have a message. adds MOSS HART, "call WESTERN "UNION." CoDvntlit.....veteran practitioners, Kaulnian AND HART. warns George K mi fin, -in. "is.. Pg. 14, col. 7: Terribly earnest young playwrights, without a vestige of humor in their make-ups, are advised to pay heed to those veteran practitioners, Kaufman and Hart. "Whimsy," warns George Kaufman, "Is what closes Saturday night." "And if you have a message," adds Moss Hart, "call Western Union." ("Try and Stop Me" by Bennett Cerf--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 04:18:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:18:02 -0500 Subject: [sing.] "guy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:04 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what >they had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a "guy." (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I >thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see >what I'm sayin'. In querying my classes, over several years, they >(male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female >groups being referred to as "guys," by either male or female speakers. >But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. > Never? Well, hardly ever. This claim is a bit too strong as it stands. Consider the following counterexamples: (1) Steppenwolf was four people and I'm just one guy. -actress Joan Allen hosting Saturday Night Live, 11/14/98, cited in Clancy, Steven J. (1999), "The ascent of guy" [American Speech 74: 282-97], p. 287. (2) -Your first mistake was telling him [= an abusive caller] your name. -Yeah, but there were only two of us on the phones, and they would have figured it was me because I'm a girl and the other guy is a guy. (3) from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (the 1992 movie): Merrick (Donald Sutherland) tells Buffy (Kristy Swanson) that she is "The Chosen One" who must fulfill her vampire-killing destiny. But she's not really into her mission and it falls to Pike (Luke Perry) to remind her of her true calling. Pike: But you're the guy! The chosen guy! Buffy: I am the chosen one, and I choose to go shopping. (4) I like sex just as much as the next guy. -Kate Austen on "Chicago Hope" They tend to involve locutions like "the other guy", "the next guy", "the chosen guy", "just one guy", and so on, none of them strictly referential. There's often an explicit or implicit contrast that doesn't involve gender. But the fact remains that these (and many others) do involve singular instances of "guy" that are either female-specific or sex-neutral. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 04:42:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:42:16 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms Message-ID: My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my eyes -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 04:49:51 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:49:51 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: <0c3cdc7e9703479788d7fb41ea3776bf@rcn.com> Message-ID: I presume these are testimonials from some of those e-mail advertisements which I deleted unread. What is a "molunk chunk"? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 05:34:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:34:00 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 2, 2005, at 11:49 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A couple of phallicisms > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I presume these are testimonials from some of those e-mail > advertisements > which I deleted unread. > > What is a "molunk chunk"? > > -- Doug Wilson > Nope, these are genuine folk-descriptions used in the telling of what-a-night-I-had-that-chick-was-so-fine-I-wanted-to-suck-her-daddy's- dick stories. Back in the day, there must have been dozens of these. Unfortunately, that day was a half-century ago, so these few are about all that I can remember. With respect to "molunk chunk," It's a chunk of an imaginary, very hard substance invented to fill out the brag. -Wilson Gray From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 06:19:53 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:19:53 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? In-Reply-To: <20050303024144.43561.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Re: dude. Quite right, as anyone who follows this list knows. Cohen, et al have covered the dude topic quite thoroughly. (I've even thrown in my penny's worth.) I was trying to inject a bit of 20th C to provide contrast. The young gentleman, a bounder mayhap, was indeed a dude (or some such, in modern terms). Either Austen had no similar appropriate term, or chose not to use one. Both are interesting possibilities. Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > My guess is that "guy" was indeed probably ambiguous into the 1890s. George Ade's "Artie" (1896) uses it frequently as a synonym for "fellow." Stephen Crane's "Maggie, A Girl of the Streets" (1892) doesn't. (The former is set in Chicago, the latter in NYC.) > > I've never seen it in a Civil War letter, BTW. > > And Jim - the word "dude" in Jane Austen ? Not possible. > > JL > > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > douglas at NB.NET wrote: > >>> >>> >> >>This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >>(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >>(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >>years. >> >> > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to > another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word > have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th > century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. > > So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a > character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be > ambiguous? > > Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? > > > Patti > >>-- Doug Wilson >> >> > > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 06:25:12 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:25:12 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The search is on my agenda. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 9:54 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: >> I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on >> this >> site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but >> from >> the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for >> defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give >> me >> a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the >> original >> post, should anyone want to know. >> >> Jim > > I would. I just tried an archive search and didn't come up with it, > although there was one of Barry's involving "R U A Yankee" > diagnostics from the eponymous monthly that looked promising for a > moment. > > Larry > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109821676"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 06:55:35 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) Message-ID: I went through the NYPL's Collection of West Viriginia Folklore (1951-1958). It looks like it was typed on carbon paper and run off.Some familiar stuff is here. Each issue of just a few pages had a theme, such as ghosts or children's rhymes. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, 1951, volume 1 Pg. ? Settin' on the doorstep Chewin' bubble gum, Along came a nigger, And asked for some. No, you dirty nigger, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a whippin', Than give you some. Rinny Tin Tin, Swallowed a pin, Went to the doctor, Doctor wasn't in, Knocked on the door, Door fell in, That was the end of Rinny Tin Tin. I went downtown to see Miss Brown, She gave me a nickel to buy a pickle; The pickle was sour, so she gave me a flower; THe flower was red, so she gave me a thread; The thread was black, so she gave me a smack; The smack was hard, so she gave me a card; And on that card was "Red Hot Pepper." Cry baby, cry, Stick your finger in your eye, Go tell your mama it wasn't I. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1952, Vol. II, no. 3 Pg. 3: (Five) more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery; No more lessons, no more chalk, No more teachers' sassy talk! (Ten) more days till vacation Back to civilization! School's out! School's out! Teacher let the mules out! No more pencils, no more books; No more teachers' sassy looks! (Warnings not to steal) Don't steal this book, my little lad, For fifty cents it cost my dad. Steal not this book for fear of shame, For in it is the owner's name; And when you're dead the devil will say, "Where is that book you stole away?" Small is the wren, Black is the rook; Blacker is the sinner Who steals this book. Steal not this book, My honest friend, For fear the gallows Will be thy end. Pg. 4: Teacher, Teacher, I declare I see bedbugs in your hair. Pg. 6: Sitting on the door step, Chewing bubble gum, Along came a beggar And asked for some. "No, you dirty beggar, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a licking Than give you some!" Johnny over the ocean, Johnny over the sea, Johnny broke a milk bottle And blamed it on me. I told Ma, Ma told Pa, Johnny got a licking, Ha, ha, ha! I'm a little Dutch girl dressed in blue; These are the things that I can do; Salute to the Captain, bow to the Queen, Touch the bottom of the submarine. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Ford bumper. (Touching child's forehead) Tom Tinker. (Eyebrows) Eye winker. (eyelashes) Nose smeller. (Nose) Mouth eater. (Mouth) Chin Chopper. (Chine) Gully, gully, gully. (Tickling child under the chin.) Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) Knock on the door, (Tap forehead with knuckles) Peep in, (Touch eyelids) Lift the latch (Pull nose) And walk in. (Touch mouth) Here is the church, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down) This is the steeple; (Point first fingers up for steeple) Open the door And see the people. (Turn clasped hands upside down to show inside of church and people with fingers) Here's my mother's knives and forks (Clasp hands with palms up and fingers pointed out) Here's my mother's table, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down and knuckles level) Here's my lady's looking glass (Lift thumb and first knuckles) And this is the baby's cradle. (Raise first and fourth fingers and rock) Pg. 14: As I went up the heeple steeple, There I met a heap of people. Some were black, an some were blacker, Some were the color of a chew of tobacker. (Ants) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Winter 1958, vol. VIII, no. 2, Old Autograph Album Issue Pg. 21: Remember me at morning Remember me at night Remember me my truest friend And don't forget to write. March 26, 1888 Pg. 21: Love many; Trust few; Always paddle Your own canoe. March 30, 1900 Pg. 22: Be good; be true; And always paddle your own canoe. New York girls are pretty; Boston girls are smart; But it takes a West Virginia girl To break a young man's heart. Dec. 7, 1937 [From SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA (1954) by B. A. Botkin, taken from NEW MASSES, vol. XXVII (May 10, 1938), no. 7, section two, pg. 109: The Brooklyn girls are tough, The Brooklyn girls are smart, But it takes a New York girl To break a fellow's heart!] Pg. 23: Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard To get her daughter a dress; When she got there the cupboard was bare; And so was her daughter, I guess. Jan. 28, 1938 Remember me in friendship; Remember me in love; Remember me, dear friend, In our better home above. Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust; If you don't go to heaven, To _school_ you must. If the river was whiskey; And I were a duck, I'd dive to the bottom And never come up. When you get married And live in the South, Remember me by My big mouth. Yours till kitchen sinks. If in heaven we don't meet, Hand in hand we'll stand the heat. Yours till the pillow slips. Love many; trust few; Always paddle your own canoe. Yours till window pains. (panes) Pg. 24: When you get poor and have no hay, Just sign up on the W.P.A. Love is like a lump of gold, Hard to get and hard to hold. Yours until the moon turns over. When heaven draws back its curtain, And pins it with a star, Remember you always have a friend, No matter where you are. Jan. 19, 1939 Pg. 27: When you're in love, it's hearts; When your engaged, it's diamonds; When you're married, it's clubs; And when you die, it's spades. 1/12/37 When you get married And live in a flat, Send me a picture Of your first little brat. Yours until horse flies. Dec. 8, 1937 As sure as the vine Goes round the stump, I am your darling Sugar lump. (Note: No. 70 is an old one. I found this, or much the same thing in an old album written in 1866. Ed.) Love many; hate few; Always paddle your own canoe. (Note: Variations of this seem to be in all albums. Ed.) Pg. 28: Can't write; too dumb; Inspiration won't come. Blue ink; blue pen, Good Luck! Amen. There's old ship; THere's new ship, But there's no ship Like friendship. Pg. 29: U R 2 sweet 2 be ------- 4 gotten When you get married and think your husband is sweet, Pull off his hoes an smell his feet. Don't make love by the garden gate, Because love is blind, but the neighbors ain't. City of pans, state of dishes; Lots of love, and plenty of kisses. Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf; I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself. You're my all-day study, my midnight dream, Sweet in my coffee, my cold ice cream. Early to bed, Early to rise, And your girl goes out With other guys. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1958, Vol. VIII, no. (?) Pg. ? Sitting on the front porch, Chewing chewing gum; Along came a Nigger and (beggar?) Asked for some. "No, you dirty Nigger! (beggar?) No, you son-of-a-gun. I wouldn't give you none For a great big bum!" (This is a variation of a similar one in _West Virginia Folklore_ (II, 3) and _Hosier Folklore_, (VII, 1). Pg. 40: New York. (or New Orleans) Here we come. Where you from? New York. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some. Pg. 45: Oh, Margarite, go wash your feet! The board of health is down the street. Tell--tale--tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the dogs about the town Shall have a little bit. You liar, you liar, Your pants are on fire! Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Help! Murder! Police! Your father fell in the grease. I laughed so hard, I fell in the lard. Help! Murder! Police! Pg. 46: Want a penny? Go see Jack Benny. Want a nickel? Go suck a pickle. Want a dollar? Go holler. Want a banana? Go play the piano. Julius Caesar, good old geezer, Stuck his head in an ice cream freezer; When the freezer began to freeze, Julius Caesar began to sneeze. Alfred Baker, the undertaker, Stuck his head in a big stone breaker; When the breaker began to break, Alfred Baker began to shake. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Mar 3 10:16:33 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:16:33 +0000 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: <200503030320.j233Kj6L012660@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : > > He's not running on all 8 cylinders. > > Doesn't have both oars in the water. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. > How about: Two prawns short of a barbie A few slabs short of a patio - Neil Crawford From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Mar 3 10:39:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:39:21 +0000 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: <200503030442.j234gQoH005215@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 3/3/05 4:42 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of phallicisms > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk > > My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 > > My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my eyes > > -Wilson Gray Not so much hard as sweet: "I don't want to do this." I said. He stepped back. He had an erection. "You don't like it?" He rubbed himself with one hand. "My dick's so sweet, it'll give you cavities." -- Susanna Moore, 'In The Cut', Picador, London, 1996, 163 -Neil Crawford (who has come across 'hard as a policeman's nightstick') From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 3 12:40:50 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:40:50 -0000 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: <20050303032043.69715.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Instances provided by Jonathan Lighter: > He's not running on all 8 cylinders. > Doesn't have both oars in the water. > Few cans shy of a six pack! > Few bytes short of a K. > He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. > His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. [etc] Is there a special name for this kind of comparison that implies a deficiency in intellect? I ask because Radio 5 Live, a BBC station, rang me on Monday asking me to do a piece about what they were called and where they came from (I declined, with thanks, having nothing to say). The proposed item was provoked by a refurbished post office which on reopening was found to lack anywhere to despatch letters and which was therefore described as being "one letter box short of a post office". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 13:14:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:14:36 -0800 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) Message-ID: This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother was One more day and we'll be free >From this school of misery ! No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's dirty looks ! She learned it in the 1890s. Also, the "whiskey / duck" rhyme is commonly found in the "Rye Whiskey" song. JL bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went through the NYPL's Collection of West Viriginia Folklore (1951-1958). It looks like it was typed on carbon paper and run off.Some familiar stuff is here. Each issue of just a few pages had a theme, such as ghosts or children's rhymes. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, 1951, volume 1 Pg. ? Settin' on the doorstep Chewin' bubble gum, Along came a nigger, And asked for some. No, you dirty nigger, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a whippin', Than give you some. Rinny Tin Tin, Swallowed a pin, Went to the doctor, Doctor wasn't in, Knocked on the door, Door fell in, That was the end of Rinny Tin Tin. I went downtown to see Miss Brown, She gave me a nickel to buy a pickle; The pickle was sour, so she gave me a flower; THe flower was red, so she gave me a thread; The thread was black, so she gave me a smack; The smack was hard, so she gave me a card; And on that card was "Red Hot Pepper." Cry baby, cry, Stick your finger in your eye, Go tell your mama it wasn't I. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1952, Vol. II, no. 3 Pg. 3: (Five) more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery; No more lessons, no more chalk, No more teachers' sassy talk! (Ten) more days till vacation Back to civilization! School's out! School's out! Teacher let the mules out! No more pencils, no more books; No more teachers' sassy looks! (Warnings not to steal) Don't steal this book, my little lad, For fifty cents it cost my dad. Steal not this book for fear of shame, For in it is the owner's name; And when you're dead the devil will say, "Where is that book you stole away?" Small is the wren, Black is the rook; Blacker is the sinner Who steals this book. Steal not this book, My honest friend, For fear the gallows Will be thy end. Pg. 4: Teacher, Teacher, I declare I see bedbugs in your hair. Pg. 6: Sitting on the door step, Chewing bubble gum, Along came a beggar And asked for some. "No, you dirty beggar, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a licking Than give you some!" Johnny over the ocean, Johnny over the sea, Johnny broke a milk bottle And blamed it on me. I told Ma, Ma told Pa, Johnny got a licking, Ha, ha, ha! I'm a little Dutch girl dressed in blue; These are the things that I can do; Salute to the Captain, bow to the Queen, Touch the bottom of the submarine. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Ford bumper. (Touching child's forehead) Tom Tinker. (Eyebrows) Eye winker. (eyelashes) Nose smeller. (Nose) Mouth eater. (Mouth) Chin Chopper. (Chine) Gully, gully, gully. (Tickling child under the chin.) Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) Knock on the door, (Tap forehead with knuckles) Peep in, (Touch eyelids) Lift the latch (Pull nose) And walk in. (Touch mouth) Here is the church, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down) This is the steeple; (Point first fingers up for steeple) Open the door And see the people. (Turn clasped hands upside down to show inside of church and people with fingers) Here's my mother's knives and forks (Clasp hands with palms up and fingers pointed out) Here's my mother's table, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down and knuckles level) Here's my lady's looking glass (Lift thumb and first knuckles) And this is the baby's cradle. (Raise first and fourth fingers and rock) Pg. 14: As I went up the heeple steeple, There I met a heap of people. Some were black, an some were blacker, Some were the color of a chew of tobacker. (Ants) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Winter 1958, vol. VIII, no. 2, Old Autograph Album Issue Pg. 21: Remember me at morning Remember me at night Remember me my truest friend And don't forget to write. March 26, 1888 Pg. 21: Love many; Trust few; Always paddle Your own canoe. March 30, 1900 Pg. 22: Be good; be true; And always paddle your own canoe. New York girls are pretty; Boston girls are smart; But it takes a West Virginia girl To break a young man's heart. Dec. 7, 1937 [From SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA (1954) by B. A. Botkin, taken from NEW MASSES, vol. XXVII (May 10, 1938), no. 7, section two, pg. 109: The Brooklyn girls are tough, The Brooklyn girls are smart, But it takes a New York girl To break a fellow's heart!] Pg. 23: Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard To get her daughter a dress; When she got there the cupboard was bare; And so was her daughter, I guess. Jan. 28, 1938 Remember me in friendship; Remember me in love; Remember me, dear friend, In our better home above. Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust; If you don't go to heaven, To _school_ you must. If the river was whiskey; And I were a duck, I'd dive to the bottom And never come up. When you get married And live in the South, Remember me by My big mouth. Yours till kitchen sinks. If in heaven we don't meet, Hand in hand we'll stand the heat. Yours till the pillow slips. Love many; trust few; Always paddle your own canoe. Yours till window pains. (panes) Pg. 24: When you get poor and have no hay, Just sign up on the W.P.A. Love is like a lump of gold, Hard to get and hard to hold. Yours until the moon turns over. When heaven draws back its curtain, And pins it with a star, Remember you always have a friend, No matter where you are. Jan. 19, 1939 Pg. 27: When you're in love, it's hearts; When your engaged, it's diamonds; When you're married, it's clubs; And when you die, it's spades. 1/12/37 When you get married And live in a flat, Send me a picture Of your first little brat. Yours until horse flies. Dec. 8, 1937 As sure as the vine Goes round the stump, I am your darling Sugar lump. (Note: No. 70 is an old one. I found this, or much the same thing in an old album written in 1866. Ed.) Love many; hate few; Always paddle your own canoe. (Note: Variations of this seem to be in all albums. Ed.) Pg. 28: Can't write; too dumb; Inspiration won't come. Blue ink; blue pen, Good Luck! Amen. There's old ship; THere's new ship, But there's no ship Like friendship. Pg. 29: U R 2 sweet 2 be ------- 4 gotten When you get married and think your husband is sweet, Pull off his hoes an smell his feet. Don't make love by the garden gate, Because love is blind, but the neighbors ain't. City of pans, state of dishes; Lots of love, and plenty of kisses. Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf; I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself. You're my all-day study, my midnight dream, Sweet in my coffee, my cold ice cream. Early to bed, Early to rise, And your girl goes out With other guys. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1958, Vol. VIII, no. (?) Pg. ? Sitting on the front porch, Chewing chewing gum; Along came a Nigger and (beggar?) Asked for some. "No, you dirty Nigger! (beggar?) No, you son-of-a-gun. I wouldn't give you none For a great big bum!" (This is a variation of a similar one in _West Virginia Folklore_ (II, 3) and _Hosier Folklore_, (VII, 1). Pg. 40: New York. (or New Orleans) Here we come. Where you from? New York. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some. Pg. 45: Oh, Margarite, go wash your feet! The board of health is down the street. Tell--tale--tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the dogs about the town Shall have a little bit. You liar, you liar, Your pants are on fire! Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Help! Murder! Police! Your father fell in the grease. I laughed so hard, I fell in the lard. Help! Murder! Police! Pg. 46: Want a penny? Go see Jack Benny. Want a nickel? Go suck a pickle. Want a dollar? Go holler. Want a banana? Go play the piano. Julius Caesar, good old geezer, Stuck his head in an ice cream freezer; When the freezer began to freeze, Julius Caesar began to sneeze. Alfred Baker, the undertaker, Stuck his head in a big stone breaker; When the breaker began to break, Alfred Baker began to shake. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 13:57:37 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:57:37 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: <20050303131437.79679.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 05:14:36AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, the "whiskey / duck" rhyme is commonly found in the "Rye Whiskey" song. And loads of blues songs, most prominently (perhaps) Sleepy John Estes' "Diving Duck Blues". I've always liked the version in Furry Lewis' "I Will Turn Your Money Green". Jesse Sheidlower OED From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 14:04:43 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:04:43 EST Subject: COKE in the South Message-ID: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > > > I like this.  Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those > non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the term and > are rejecting it.  Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie cups; the > South will rise again: syndrome? > > Jim > COKE is an important example, and In thank Jim for reminding me of it and making me give it some more thought. JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, there use is plural. I didn't mean to suggest that there may not be some examples of partial genericide still underway in contemporary culture. TRAMPOLINE is a fairly recent example of a term that lost its trademark status. THERMOS is another that has some kind of borderline status. Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, of course, modern advertising. And, no, they are not "rejecting" the specific association of COKE with COCA COLA, though they may be making a parallel use of the word. Note that this process is not peculiar to trademarks. For example, "french" is sometimes used as a verb meaning 'kiss with the mouth open and the tongue protruding'. But people who say, "Tom frenched Tony" are not thereby "rejecting" the association (of the phonemic sequence found in "french") with the proper noun "French." Obviously, there is something of a genericide continuum for trademarks and erstwhile trademarks from true generics (aspirin) to trademarks that are never used generically. Again, all I am suggesting is that it behooves us as linguists and lexicographers to use terminology that reflects the linguistic knowledge of native speakers as accurately and fully as possible. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 14:18:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:18:57 EST Subject: KLEENEX RUBBER PANTIES Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 11:46:25 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > All this is true only if you ignore popular usage.   And why would a > linguist do that? > > If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either > affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law.   I never > heard of "Kleenex rubber panties" and have a hard time picturing something > that's both rubber and made of kleenex. > I think your tongue must at least be touching your cheek here. So far as I know, you are correct in suggesting that Kleenex does not actually make rubber panties, but "Kleenex rubber panties" obviously means 'rubber panties made by Kleenex'--not rubber panties made of facial tissues. Kleenex does in fact market Kleenex brand dinner napkins and Kleenex brand dinner napkin dispensers; I doubt seriously that anyone (but a child) has ever concluded on the basis of the name that these were made of facial tissues. As for "pathologically conscious of trademark law," I don't deny that the shorthand use of "Kleenex " in ordinary conversation is commonplace, perhaps even dominant in informal conversation. However, isn't it also true that people who do so do so with the knowledge that what they are doing is in fact shorthand, and that under the right compelling circumstances they would resort to the word "facial tissue" or some other generic term for the thing they were trying to refer to? Try Googling (i.e., 'using a web search engine') for " 'facial tissue' -Kleenex" and you will get 128,000 responses, the first one being from a web site that offers to help one purchase "facial tissues." Sure, some of these entries are from the manufacturers of competing products who do not want to be sued by the Kleenex brand owners, but most are not. And few, I think are "pathological." Rather, in this context it would be confusing to readers to offer to help them buy "kleenex," precisely because readers know that "kleenex" is not REALLY generic. (Granted, anyone who made such a website offer would get a nasty letter from Kleenex's legal department, but while the fear of such a letter may be part of the website-owner's motivation, the lack of clarity of such a use of "kleenex" in this context must surely be paramount). As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage (i.e., taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW about the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be solved by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm not sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not theirs. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:03:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:03:07 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >> >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be archived. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. >> > >How about: > >Two prawns short of a barbie > >A few slabs short of a patio > >- Neil Crawford And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant oversights: "And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too bright, is he, Bernie?" "Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:07:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:07:29 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: The question arose on another list of whether elementary school children have "always" practiced superstitious observances to cause a "snow day" off from school - flushing ice cubes down the toilet, for example. I never heard of this in NYC in the '50s - or anywhere till this week. Does anybody remember such superstitions ? Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 15:09:28 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:09:28 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303150729.23190.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems > to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on > it. ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine of the state education system are a couple of major, red letter events, known as Snow Days. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:10:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:10:32 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: I heard "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" in the early to mid '90s. "A few bricks short of a pile" has been around for maybe 30 years. "A few sandwiches short of a picnic" showed up just a few years back, in my experience. "Lights are on, nobody home" : early '80s? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >> >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be archived. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. >> > >How about: > >Two prawns short of a barbie > >A few slabs short of a patio > >- Neil Crawford And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant oversights: "And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too bright, is he, Bernie?" "Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." Larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:13:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:13:41 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators and teachers to pupils. When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems > to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on > it. ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine of the state education system are a couple of major, red letter events, known as Snow Days. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:19:46 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "One short of complete" is surely a universal. One of my favorites is Polish "Nie ma pianti kelpki," which is (literally) "He/she doesn't have fifth stave." Some old small barrels had five staves. Cute huh? dInIs (Prestonski) >>on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >>> >>> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >>> >>> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >>> > >The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a >happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken >from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be >archived. > >> > JL, not familiar with any of these. >>> >> >>How about: >> >>Two prawns short of a barbie >> >>A few slabs short of a patio >> >>- Neil Crawford > >And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the >Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with >this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon >who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant >oversights: > >"And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too >bright, is he, Bernie?" >"Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." > > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:26:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? [long post] In-Reply-To: <422705D2.25977.70155@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM +0000 3/3/05, Michael Quinion wrote: >Instances provided by Jonathan Lighter: > >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> Few cans shy of a six pack! >> Few bytes short of a K. >> He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. >> His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. > >[etc] > >Is there a special name for this kind of comparison that implies a >deficiency in intellect? I mentioned in my last posting, there is--or at least used to be--a web-posted list (from a more general humor site) that collected these under the rubric of "short-of"s. Not the best name, of course, since it's somewhat opaque and--as demonstrated by the above examples (or that "not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave" one I cited)--not always descriptive. And in fact misremembered. Now that I rethink it, they're more frequently called "full-deckisms" (as in what someone is purportedly not playing with). A useful (if not exhaustive) list is available at http://herbison.com/canon/fulldeck.html. larry From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:58:41 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:58:41 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303150729.23190.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. Barbara From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Mar 3 16:41:02 2005 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:41:02 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect it started in the sixties. At that time people started thinking in terms of contact hours. It may have come directly from the Kennedy push for physical fitness and the whole science and space race thing. Even though there were superintendents and boards before then, I don't think anyone really was overly concerned with having the schools set up on some standard imposed from the outside. When my dad was a superintendent in the fifties a little before I came along, each school system decided on the specifics of the school year--or at least that is the impression I got from things he told me. Barbara Need wrote: > At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >> be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. > > > 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in > Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if > we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. > > Barbara From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 16:53:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:53:38 -0500 Subject: KLEENEX RUBBER PANTIES In-Reply-To: <1e9.3704076f.2f5876d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:18 AM -0500 3/3/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage (i.e., >taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to >what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW about >the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." I take your point, but (without retrotting out the arguments I've already advanced in this thread) I think you're still underestimating the possibility that what speakers know is that "kleenex" and similar words are in fact autohyponymous, in which case their *use* as generics reflects speakers' *knowledge* of their meaning, as with "Yankee" and other instances of...can we call them "concentrics"? >It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be solved >by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at >least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm not >sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not >theirs. In fact I've used these labels for a somewhat different case, that of *man*, in which (as others have argued before me) speakers don't in fact behave as though there is a true gender-neutral meaning, but at the same time there is a sense that isn't strictly male-referential. (In the paper Steve Kleinedler and I presented on this at the LSA a few years ago, we invoked Roschian prototypes to provide the appropriate model for what we called "QG [quasi-generic] _man_".) I'd argue that this isn't quite the same as "kleenex", which really does mean 'facial tissue'. Our paper was a response to an influential paper by the philosopher Janice Moulton, who claimed that the notion of "parasitic reference", as defined by genericization of "kleenex" for 'tissue', "clorox" for 'bleach', etc., should be extended to the case of "man", and we pointed out various differences between the two cases leading us to reject this identification, including the obvious historical one ("kleenex" involved broadening, "man" involved narrowing). At the same time we suggested that her analysis would be directly applicable to the history and current status of "guy(s)". There too, as with "kleenex" or "clorox" or "xerox", we do (I'd argue) need to invoke autohyponymy, not just careless uses, especially for those speakers who can have an individual woman in mind in referring to "the other guy", "the next guy", "just one guy", etc., but arguably also for those (possibly now a majority) who can refer to mixed-sex or all female groups as "(those) guys". I'd vote to reserve "quasi-generic" for those cases where no true generic sense is involved, as with (according to me) "man", as opposed to those where a generic and a specific sense exist side-by-side, as with (according to me) "kleenex" or "guy(s)". YMMV, of course. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 17:07:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:07:16 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: If "one short of complete" is a universal, where are examples from, say, pre-1960s English ? JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One short of complete" is surely a universal. One of my favorites is Polish "Nie ma pianti kelpki," which is (literally) "He/she doesn't have fifth stave." Some old small barrels had five staves. Cute huh? dInIs (Prestonski) >>on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >>> >>> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >>> >>> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >>> > >The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a >happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken >from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be >archived. > >> > JL, not familiar with any of these. >>> >> >>How about: >> >>Two prawns short of a barbie >> >>A few slabs short of a patio >> >>- Neil Crawford > >And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the >Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with >this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon >who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant >oversights: > >"And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too >bright, is he, Bernie?" >"Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." > > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 17:23:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:23:44 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: So there are at least three kinds of "snow days" in current English : 1. a snowy day. [Presumably a nonlexicalized conversational phrase in use now and again for many decades - or longer.] 2. a notional day set aside during a school year for the possibility that classes might be canceled because of a snowstorm. [In use and lexicalized since at least 1951.] 3. a day when classes are actually or a school closed owing to a snowstorm. [Whether or not a compensatory day will be added at the end of the school term. It's conceivable that classes might be canceled, but that staff is still expected to come to work. In that case, students have a "snow day," but staff does not. Lexicalized when ?] JL Barbara Need wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barbara Need Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. Barbara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 17:38:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:38:39 -0500 Subject: C2C (Cradle to Cradle); Full Deckisms Message-ID: C2C--I don't know if this one has been recorded with all the B2B spinoffs years ago. 3 March 2005, Wall Street, Journal, pg. D1, col. 2: _Beyond Recycling: Manufacturers Embrace "C2C" Design_ (...) The goal is to abandon the cradle-to-grave path of man-made products that end up in garbage dumps and instead make them C2C, or "cradle to cradle." FULL DECKISMS--I discussed a number of these on this list a few years ago. The "cheese fall off your cracker" didn't seem to fit precisely, but it's the same meaning. HARVARD ALUMNI BULLETIN--The NYPL has this, and I thought I'd look for the 1905 alumni dinner and "Cabots talk only to God." The Bulletin is--all together now--off site. "I'm getting it on Saturday, right?" I told the NYPL person. "It takes two days. Come back next week." And so it goes. Back to parking tickets. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 17:50:52 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:50:52 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303151341.76313.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In suburban NY, it was certainly part of core usage by the early 1960s. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators and teachers to pupils. > > When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? > > JL > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems >>to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on >>it. > > > ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: > > 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine > of the state education system are a couple of major, red > letter events, known as Snow Days. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 18:02:41 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:02:41 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303172344.78938.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:23:44AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > So there are at least three kinds of "snow days" in current English : > > 1. a snowy day. [Presumably a nonlexicalized > conversational phrase in use now and again for many decades > - or longer.] > > 2. a notional day set aside during a school year for the > possibility that classes might be canceled because of a > snowstorm. [In use and lexicalized since at least 1951.] > > 3. a day when classes are actually or a school closed owing > to a snowstorm. [Whether or not a compensatory day will be > added at the end of the school term. It's conceivable that > classes might be canceled, but that staff is still expected > to come to work. In that case, students have a "snow day," > but staff does not. Lexicalized when ?] 4. extended uses--a day on which a company, etc., is closed owing to a snowstorm; a day on which anything is closed due to any kind of inclement weather; any unscheduled closing of something normally open. E.g. 2005 Wash. Post 25 Feb. A18, I am baffled by how many people freak out because the city shuts down during bad weather. You would think it is the end of the world if we have a snow day. Maybe the real problem is that our city is full of workaholics who can't handle the stress of staying home on a workday. 2003 Wall St. Jrnl 20 Oct. A3 Were a major SARS outbreak to occur in the U.S., the CDC plan envisions possible quarantines of people exposed to SARS... 'Snow day' measures, such as closings of schools and businesses, could be mandated. Jesse Sheidlower OED From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 16:44:18 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:44:18 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: _Snow-day_ appears in 1913 (at least, maybe earlier): "We have a man who plays at cleaning off the snow every snow-day." In "The Social Secretary," _Lincoln [Neb.] Daily News_, Dec. 26, 1913, p 4 This sense is, however, not quite the same--just a day of snow. I remember more than one "snow day" in the blizzard of 1947 (suburban NYC region). But, I don't remember at that tender age what people called it. One local school librarian (Hyde Park, N.Y.) remembered no special superstitious behavior. However, her assistant says her daughter will put her pajamas on backwards and dance around the house. There has been no study on the efficacy of this behavior on the atmosphere. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Thursday, March 3, 2005 at 10:58 AM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barbara Need >Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >>be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. > >1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in >Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if >we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. > >Barbara > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 3 18:44:51 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:44:51 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <89635decc57411d9c4fe6dea23fad4aa@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. > >So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we could have "chicken every Sunday." >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! > >-Wilson I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, today, on our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million dollar jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the intrusive /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Mar 3 19:27:03 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:27:03 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050302210830.02fd4760@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Then there are the lines in the lord high executioner's aria in The Mikado (enumerating potential candidates for execution who "never would be missed"): "And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy, "And who 'doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try'" I assumed it simply meant she dressed like a man, but was told once that "guy" in the Victorian era--and thus in this passage--had some specific, different meaning which unfortunately I've forgotten. Could it be a reference to the Guy Fawkes effigy of OED sense 1.a.: "The figure is habited in grotesquely ragged and ill-assorted garments"? Or was my informant misinformed and it simply meant a woman who dressed like a man, but who is called a "guy" here just to provide a rhyme with "try"? G&S are obviously evoking some then-current stereotype which is unknown to modern audiences (or at least to me), making the verse obscure. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, March 2, 2005 9:15 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they >> had to >> tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >> referred to as a "guy." > > This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today > (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so > (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 > years. > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 19:39:37 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:39:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303133748.02f1f800@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I caught it and took my little hatchet to it. I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many birds to the big coop in the sky. dInIs >At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >> >>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. > >I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >could have "chicken every Sunday." > >>I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>tempora! O, mores! >> >>-Wilson > >I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, today, on >our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million dollar >jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the intrusive >/l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 19:43:40 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:43:40 -0500 Subject: "guy" Message-ID: There's an interesting contrast between the expression "regular guy" as used in the US & the UK. (This UK usage is probably out of date by several decades!) Whereas here it connotes "true blue," "stand up," "good fellow," &c., in UK it means -- or meant -- a figure of fun, or a foolish-looking, or outlandishly dressed person. These meanings deriving, presumably from the Guy Fawkes effigies carried about and burnt on bonfires on GF day (Nov 5). On the "strong as ball" thread, I've lost the original post & don't remember whence the citation came, but ISTM that mistaking "intestinal" for "testicular" could well arise from mis-hearing or misapprehending this euphemism for "guts," (perhaps from childhood) in a society that is a lot more attentive to testicles than intestines. A. Murie From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 19:51:03 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:51:03 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: <20050303131437.79679.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother was > >One more day and we'll be free >>>From this school of misery ! >No more pencils, no more books, >No more teacher's dirty looks ! > >She learned it in the 1890s. > JL ~~~~~~ The one I was reminded of came from my mother's childhood in St. Louis (she was b. 1905): Once a big molicepan Met a bittle lum, Sitting on a sturbcone, chewing gubber rum. "Hi" said the molicepan, "Won't you simme gome?" "Tixie on your nintype!" Said the bittle lum. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 20:07:46 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:07:46 -0500 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~ Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear "forbid" for both present & past more often than not. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 3 20:23:27 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:23:27 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all my colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > >I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >birds to the big coop in the sky. > >dInIs > > >>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >>could have "chicken every Sunday." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 21:06:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:06:17 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:07 PM -0500 3/3/05, sagehen wrote: > >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>tempora! O, mores! > >>-Wilson >~~~~~~~~~ >Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people >nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear >"forbid" for both present & past more often than not. >AM I'm still trying to figure out the past tense of "forgo". (And no, "decided to forgo" technically doesn't count.) L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 21:17:41 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 3:07 PM -0500 3/3/05, sagehen wrote: >> >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>>tempora! O, mores! >> >>>-Wilson >>~~~~~~~~~ >>Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people >>nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear >>"forbid" for both present & past more often than not. >>AM > >I'm still trying to figure out the past tense of "forgo". (And no, >"decided to forgo" technically doesn't count.) > >L ~~~~~~~~~ Well, it ain't foregone, for sure, so how about "forwent?" AM From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:24:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators > and teachers to pupils. > > When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? > > JL "*Core* vocabulary"? Isn't that a bit extreme? It's a part of the core vocabulary of American English where snow is a problem, no doubt, but probably nowhere else. The concept of "snow day," from my personal experience is unknown in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Missouri, and Coastal California. I'd guess that "snow day" is likewise unknown in the rest of the Deep South east of Louisiana. -Wilson > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems >> to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on >> it. > > ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: > > 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine > of the state education system are a couple of major, red > letter events, known as Snow Days. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:41:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:41:35 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8adp84@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 1:44 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >> when >> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >> its >> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >> head >> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >> >> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. > > I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we > could have "chicken every Sunday." Watching the chicken's headless body run around used to scare the hell out of me when I was a little kid. At the same time, it was totally fascinating, like a horror movie. BTW, it can also be fun to explain to city-slicker types the origin of that saying about chickens and heads. >> I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >> tempora! O, mores! >> >> -Wilson > > I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, > today, on > our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million > dollar > jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the > intrusive > /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:59:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:59:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great story, dInIs! Fortunately for me - there are several people whose necks I'd love to snap, but I've never killed any animal bigger than a mouse - my branch of the family had moved to St. Louis before the time of that particular rite of passage arrived. -Wilson On Mar 3, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age > phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed > (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting > of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold > its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken > with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I > caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > > I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many > birds to the big coop in the sky. > > dInIs > > >> At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>> abandon. >>> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>> when >>> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>> its >>> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>> head >>> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>> and >>> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >> I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >> we >> could have "chicken every Sunday." >> >>> I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." >>> O, >>> tempora! O, mores! >>> >>> -Wilson >> >> I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, >> today, on >> our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million >> dollar >> jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the >> intrusive >> /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 22:47:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:20 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: It means she dresses like a frightful-looking Guy Fawkes figure. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then there are the lines in the lord high executioner's aria in The Mikado (enumerating potential candidates for execution who "never would be missed"): "And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy, "And who 'doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try'" I assumed it simply meant she dressed like a man, but was told once that "guy" in the Victorian era--and thus in this passage--had some specific, different meaning which unfortunately I've forgotten. Could it be a reference to the Guy Fawkes effigy of OED sense 1.a.: "The figure is habited in grotesquely ragged and ill-assorted garments"? Or was my informant misinformed and it simply meant a woman who dressed like a man, but who is called a "guy" here just to provide a rhyme with "try"? G&S are obviously evoking some then-current stereotype which is unknown to modern audiences (or at least to me), making the verse obscure. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, March 2, 2005 9:15 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they >> had to >> tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >> referred to as a "guy." > > This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today > (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so > (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 > years. > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 22:52:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:52:15 -0800 Subject: "strong as ball" Message-ID: I was once upbraided by another grad student for using "guts" conversationally. "Don't say 'guts,'" she complained, "when you mean 'balls.'" She wasn't kidding, either. Go figure. This was in 1975. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: "guy" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's an interesting contrast between the expression "regular guy" as used in the US & the UK. (This UK usage is probably out of date by several decades!) Whereas here it connotes "true blue," "stand up," "good fellow," &c., in UK it means -- or meant -- a figure of fun, or a foolish-looking, or outlandishly dressed person. These meanings deriving, presumably from the Guy Fawkes effigies carried about and burnt on bonfires on GF day (Nov 5). On the "strong as ball" thread, I've lost the original post & don't remember whence the citation came, but ISTM that mistaking "intestinal" for "testicular" could well arise from mis-hearing or misapprehending this euphemism for "guts," (perhaps from childhood) in a society that is a lot more attentive to testicles than intestines. A. Murie --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:08:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:08:27 -0800 Subject: "among" = "between" Message-ID: This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, "She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering amongst themselves." JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:21:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:07 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I wonder if for/bed/ isn't a survival in addition to being a spelling pronunciation. OED lists as ME past-tense forms forbe'ad, forbead, forbet(t), forbed(e), forbed, forbeed. "Forbid" as a past is listed for the 16th through 18th centuries. Apparently somebody just wasn't paying attention for the past 200 years. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~ Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear "forbid" for both present & past more often than not. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:22:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:31 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I don't get it. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all my colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > >I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >birds to the big coop in the sky. > >dInIs > > >>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >>could have "chicken every Sunday." --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 3 23:29:23 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:29:23 -0600 Subject: "among" = "between" In-Reply-To: <20050303230828.71664.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." > >Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the >Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, > >"She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering >amongst themselves." > >JL Actually, this confusion dates to Old English! (Without my dictionary) I remember seeing 'among' as one of the definitions for betweon. Barbara From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:47:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:47:58 -0800 Subject: "among" = "between" Message-ID: Yes, but this is just the opposite ! JL Barbara Need wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barbara Need Subject: Re: "among" = "between" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." > >Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the >Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, > >"She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering >amongst themselves." > >JL Actually, this confusion dates to Old English! (Without my dictionary) I remember seeing 'among' as one of the definitions for betweon. Barbara --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:59:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:59:51 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 00:08:44 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:08:44 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050303235951.33371.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > > One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. Loan translation, maybe, but certainly not new. Here's a 1996 use from alt.folklore.urban, where I'm sure I saw it used earlier than that even (but google provides no evidence): . Taking group out of the search field, I found a 1994 thread called "Earworm from hell" in soc.motss. -- Alice Faber From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 4 01:40:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050303235951.33371.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks into one's computer/software). I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the appropriate English "earworm" from 1993. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Mar 4 01:56:24 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:56:24 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: Does anyone know how old the figurative "Ohrwurm" is in German? As I've posted before, the earliest found for "earworm" so far in English is in the 9/18/1987 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist Bobby Watson: >>"I like to create little earworms," he says. "That way people who don't know the technical side of the music will start humming."<< Word Spy has posted a 12/22/1987 article from The Whole Earth Review, http://www.wordspy.com/words/earworm.asp, talking about Ohrwurms in the figurative sense, so it seems unlikely that the English term could have predated the German term. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Earworm" German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks into one's computer/software). I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the appropriate English "earworm" from 1993. -- Doug Wilson From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 4 01:59:49 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:59:49 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050303202355.02fca5e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad > >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune > >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone > >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > > German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: > according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I > think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively > for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" > in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite > of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However > it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English > "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks > into one's computer/software). > > I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the Paul McFedries covered this a while back. The earliest citation he has is by Howard Rheingold in "Untranslatable words," The Whole Earth Review, December 22, 1987 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 4 02:13:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:13:47 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that it helps if you're intimately familiar with this killing method. In any case, the wrist twist, when done properly, tears off the chicken's head and pulls out its esophagus. The way dInIs did it, he merely broke the chicken's neck, leaving it otherwise in one piece. He doesn't say so, but it's probably correct to assume that he freaked and dropped the chicken in shock instead of maintaining his hold on the chicken's head and trying again. I certainly would loved to see the expression on dInIs's face when he realized that he had bleeped up. Or, maybe you just had to have been there, city slicker. -Wilson On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all > my > colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). > > At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >> We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >> phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >> (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >> of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >> its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >> with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >> caught it and took my little hatchet to it. >> >> I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >> birds to the big coop in the sky. >> >> dInIs >> >> >>> At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>>> abandon. >>>> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>>> when >>>> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>>> its >>>> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>>> head >>>> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>>> >>>> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>>> and >>>> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >>> >>> I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >>> we >>> could have "chicken every Sunday." > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 4 02:22:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:22:10 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, the term that I remember from my childhood as generic, "soda water," has now fallen out of use? -Wilson Gray On Mar 3, 2005, at 9:04 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: COKE in the South > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > >>> >> =20 >> I like this.=A0 Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >> non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >> term an= > d >> are rejecting it.=A0 Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie >> cups; t= > he >> South will rise again: syndrome? >> =20 >> Jim >> =20 > COKE is an important example, and In thank Jim for reminding me of it > and=20 > making me give it some more thought. > > JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be > difficult to=20 > maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME Southerners > sometimes bor= > ders=20 > on the generic. In my experience after living nearly 40 years in > North=20 > Carolina (I haven't checked this against any empirical data), there > are SOME= > people=20 > who use "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks > in=20 > general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number of > immig= > rants=20 > from the North are often confused by such utterances as, "What kind of > cokes= > do=20 > y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, there use is plural. > > I didn't mean to suggest that there may not be some examples of > partial=20 > genericide still underway in contemporary culture. TRAMPOLINE is a > fairly re= > cent=20 > example of a term that lost its trademark status. THERMOS is another > that ha= > s=20 > some kind of borderline status. Sometimes words do indeed undergo what > the=20 > lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some people: > COKE(= > S) may=20 > have some kind of double-meaning for some people, i.e., a dictionary > that=20 > properly describes COKE for some Southerners might should have entry > #1 for=20= > the=20 > trademark status and #2 for the generic use. But such people are a > decided=20 > minority in the US, and I suspect that they are dying out in the face > of dia= > lect=20 > mixture and, of course, modern advertising. And, no, they are not > "rejecting= > "=20 > the specific association of COKE with COCA COLA, though they may be > making a= > =20 > parallel use of the word. Note that this process is not peculiar to > trademar= > ks.=20 > For example, "french" is sometimes used as a verb meaning 'kiss with > the mou= > th=20 > open and the tongue protruding'. But people who say, "Tom frenched > Tony" are= > =20 > not thereby "rejecting" the association (of the phonemic sequence > found in=20 > "french") with the proper noun "French." > > Obviously, there is something of a genericide continuum for trademarks > and=20 > erstwhile trademarks from true generics (aspirin) to trademarks that > are nev= > er=20 > used generically. Again, all I am suggesting is that it behooves us > as=20 > linguists and lexicographers to use terminology that reflects the > linguistic= > knowledge=20 > of native speakers as accurately and fully as possible.=20 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 02:23:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:23:08 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <83c876b105030317597a8510ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0800 3/3/05, Towse wrote: >On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad >> >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune >> >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone >> >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a >>"haunting melody." >> >> German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: >> according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I >> think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively >> for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" >> in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite >> of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However >> it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English >> "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks >> into one's computer/software). >> >> I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the > >Paul McFedries covered this a while back. > > > >The earliest citation he has is by Howard Rheingold in "Untranslatable >words," The Whole Earth Review, December 22, 1987 Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? By RACHEL KIPP, AP ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, but no cure. ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two songs that are tough to shake. ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Mar 4 03:08:55 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:08:55 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <3c0d86f5b7b5366d48283e36abcd5df2@rcn.com> Message-ID: I agree that this sounds awfully ghoulish and hardly laughable--but we country kids grew up seeing lots of ghoulish things! At 09:13 PM 3/3/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I think that it helps if you're intimately familiar with this killing >method. In any case, the wrist twist, when done properly, tears off the >chicken's head and pulls out its esophagus. The way dInIs did it, he >merely broke the chicken's neck, leaving it otherwise in one piece. He >doesn't say so, but it's probably correct to assume that he freaked and >dropped the chicken in shock instead of maintaining his hold on the >chicken's head and trying again. I certainly would loved to see the >expression on dInIs's face when he realized that he had bleeped up. Or, >maybe you just had to have been there, city slicker. > >-Wilson > >On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I don't get it. >> >>JL >> >>Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all >>my >>colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). >> >>At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >>>We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >>>phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >>>(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >>>of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >>>its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >>>with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >>>caught it and took my little hatchet to it. >>> >>>I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >>>birds to the big coop in the sky. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >>> >>>>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>>>>abandon. >>>>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>>>>when >>>>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>>>>its >>>>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>>>>head >>>>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>>>> >>>>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>>>>and >>>>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >>>> >>>>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >>>>we >>>>could have "chicken every Sunday." >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 4 03:13:20 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:20 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7C@PHEX01.stradley.c om> Message-ID: > Does anyone know how old the figurative "Ohrwurm" is in > German? As I've posted before, the earliest found for "earworm" so far > in English is in the 9/18/1987 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist > Bobby Watson: > > >>"I like to create little earworms," he says. "That way people > who don't know the technical side of the music will start humming."<< > > Word Spy has posted a 12/22/1987 article from The Whole Earth > Review, http://www.wordspy.com/words/earworm.asp, talking about Ohrwurms > in the figurative sense, so it seems unlikely that the English term could > have predated the German term. I had forgotten the previous thread (or never read it), stupid me. The above dates don't seem decisive (both 1987) but I agree German-to-English is more likely anyway. My little Harrap's Concise German dictionary shows the "Ohrwurm" in question; this book is dated 1982, but I have a 1994 printing so I can't be entirely sure. The Grimm Bros. on-line dictionary does not show it (surprise!). -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Fri Mar 4 06:36:55 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 From: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. Looking it up, I also found Ruth Rendell's novel _Adam and Eve and Pinch Me_, published in 2001. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 07:02:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:02:51 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:14:36 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother >was > >One more day and we'll be free >>From this school of misery ! >No more pencils, no more books, >No more teacher's dirty looks ! > >She learned it in the 1890s. "A few more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery. No more pencils, no more bo[o]ks, No more pencils, no more books." --Lima Daily News (Ohio), June 8, 1920, p. 5 Hard to find early cites for the whole quatrain-- usually only the second couplet is given (or even just the first line of the couplet). There are also a lot of variants for the teacher's looks (Barry mentioned the "saucy" and "sassy" variants in a Jan. 28 post): "No more pencils, no more books..." --Washington Post, Jun 22, 1919, p. 15 --Los Angeles Times, Jun 18, 1921, p. II6 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's horrid looks." --Chicago Tribune, Jun 18, 1921, p. 17 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's angry looks." --Appleton Post Crescent (Wisc.) March 24, 1922, p. 11 --Chicago Daily Tribune, Jun 27, 1931, p. 3 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's saucy looks." --Decatur (Ill.) Daily Review, June 05, 1924 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's sassy looks." --Los Angeles Times, Jun 8, 1924, p. 39 --Washington Post, Jun 11, 1925, p. 2 --Los Angeles Times, Jun 12, 1926, p. 6 --Chicago Daily Tribune, Feb 4, 1929, p. 25 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's cross-eyed looks." --Washington Post, Apr 2, 1926, p. 1 The earliest I can find for the "dirty looks" variant is from the New York Times, Jun 24, 1938, p. 18. That article also gives this earlier couplet: "Good-bye, scholars, good-bye, school, Good-bye, teacher, darned old fool." Here's another early one: "Vacation's come, and we are free. No more school for you and me. No more Latin, no more French, No more dunces on a bench." --Los Angeles Times, Jun 29, 1901, p. 16 There are also variants that have the last line as "No more sitting on a hard-wood bench." And there's a similar couplet, "No more Latin, no more Greek / No more sitting on a hard-board seat." --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 07:25:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:25:57 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >From: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), > especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) > >WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >Pg. 13: >Finger Games > >Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >Went down to the river to see the fight. >Adam and Eve got home that night >And who was left to see the fight? > >(When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) > >In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be saved." Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] ----- Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also has: "Acker, backer, soda cracker, Acker, backer, boo! My father chews tobacker, Out goes you." (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") "As I was going to Salt Lake I met a little rattlesnake, He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] It made his little belly ache." "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 10:36:52 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:36:52 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My children and their friends learned this as a jump rope chant: "Engine, engine number nine, Going down Chicago line If the train should jump the track, Do you want your money back?" Then it would continue with the jumper jumping to "Yes, no, maybe so" (to answer the question, which is the answer that the jumper finally missed on). "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer Benjamin Zimmer wrote: --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From maberry at MYUW.NET Fri Mar 4 12:03:31 2005 From: maberry at MYUW.NET (Allen Maberry) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:03:31 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: <200503040726.j247Q1R6022119@mxe1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I grew up with a variation on this from my grandmother (1900-1991). "Adam and Eve and Pinch-me went down to the river to fish. Adam and Eve got drowned so who was left?" allen maberry at myuw.net On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 > Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all > went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be > saved." > Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then > said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] > ----- > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. > ----- > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 12:55:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:55:57 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny chanting, Acka backa soda cracka, Acka backa boo! Acka backa soda cracka, Out goes you! JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >From: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), > especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) > >WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >Pg. 13: >Finger Games > >Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >Went down to the river to see the fight. >Adam and Eve got home that night >And who was left to see the fight? > >(When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) > >In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be saved." Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] ----- Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also has: "Acker, backer, soda cracker, Acker, backer, boo! My father chews tobacker, Out goes you." (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") "As I was going to Salt Lake I met a little rattlesnake, He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] It made his little belly ache." "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 13:15:41 2005 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:15:41 EST Subject: akdweesh... was sammies Message-ID: Dear All, Subsequent to last month's discussion on "sandwich" and its variations (I'm pitifully late reading my mail), while I believe I missed part of that exchange, I would like to submit a deviation I'm aware of that I don't think made the list, and which might be interesting to some people : akdweesh (pronunciation), akdwich (spelling). This was seeded in the US of A by a French speaker, sojourning for an extended period on the northeast coast. The expression traveled to southeast Florida and then to Chicago, all around the very early 1990s. I heard it used on the northeast coast, in restricted circles. I don't know if it has died out or not, but it could resuscitate. Here's how it works. In French the word "sandwich" is used. It is pronounced /sãdwish/. (I momentarily don't have the IPA on my computer. I'll do my best.) "Sans" /sã/ means "without". "Dwich" means nothing on its own I'm aware of. "Avec", on the other hand, means "with". Substitute "avec" for /sã/ and you get "avecdwich" This declines into /akdwish/, sometimes /akdwitsh/ (obvious English language influence). This can become, with a little inversion /akdwisht/, further declining into /akdwist/ or in its most trimmed form, /dwist/. Hence, "Tu veux un... dwist?" Or as it was passed around in the US, "You want a dwist?" ("Dwist" is of course substitutable by any of its more lengthy above mentioned forms.) For what it's worth. I don't know about Wilson Gray coining "pimpmobile", but I know who coined this one. The name can be supplied upon request. All the best, Lois Nathan From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 14:11:18 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:11:18 -0500 Subject: Apostrophe Message-ID: Colleague's, At the website www.angryflower.com there is a poster with Bob the Angry Flower's rant against misuser's of apostrophe's, some of which are the greengrocer's variety, oft discussed here. dInIs' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Mar 4 14:32:27 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:32:27 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South Message-ID: From: RonButters at AOL.COM : In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: :: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those :: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the :: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your :: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? : JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be : difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME : Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after : living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this : against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use : "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks : in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number : of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, : "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, : there use is plural. : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the : generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I : suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, : of course, modern advertising... Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, IMObservation), but, that said... I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents of all ages. It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and (i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 15:04:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:04:25 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <038c01c520c6$fe81cca0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda asked what year it was. What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) as a generic? dInIs >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? > > > >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >: there use is plural. > > > >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >: of course, modern advertising... > >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >IMObservation), but, that said... > >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents >of all ages. > >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. > > > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 15:29:12 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:29:12 EST Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 15:30:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:30:57 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20S?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?outh?= Message-ID: Of course, how one says 'soft drink' in Polish does not tell us a thing about the current state of the morpheme COKE in the English language in America (where it has a number of meanings, by the way, that are not associated with soft drinks). In a message dated 3/4/05 10:05:17 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US > sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place > for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had > Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; > seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) > > Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status > than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it > was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, > according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently > displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a > high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian > champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) > > In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order > for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and > was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and > once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda > asked what year it was. > > What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) > as a generic? > > dInIs > > > >From:    RonButters at AOL.COM > >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > > >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those > >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the > >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your > >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? > > > > > > > >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be > >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME > >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after > >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this > >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use > >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks > >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number > >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, > >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, > >: there use is plural. > > > > > > > >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the > >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some > >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, > >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners > >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the > >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I > >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, > >: of course, modern advertising... > > > >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, > >IMObservation), but, that said... > > > >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can > get > >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from > respondents > >of all ages. > > > >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, > >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and > >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. > > > > > > > >David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx > >     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > >     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > >     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >         Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 15:36:28 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:36:28 -0600 Subject: borrow/lend Message-ID: I searched the newer archives for this reversal, but didn't hit much. is there a way to access the older ones? A student of mine is curious about the origins of this reversal, which she notices in her own speech (North dakota) Thanks either for a re-hash of this or a link to something about it. Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 15:38:32 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:38:32 -0600 Subject: Genericide was Re: COKE in the South Message-ID: > > : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the > : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some > : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for > some people, > : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners > : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the > : generic use. Genericide is not in the OED. >From the Hein Online legal database. Nothing better in Lexis/Nexis, and I don't have Westlaw. Vol 20 No. 1 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. p.7 Fall, 1978 Generic Trademarks, the FTC and the Lanham Act: Covering the Market with Formica; Shipley, David E. " "Genericide," the metamorphosis of a distinctive mark into a generic term, ordinarily results from several factors which often are difficult to identify; concomitantly, the deterioration of the trademark may be equally difficult to abate. " From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 4 15:39:18 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:39:18 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <200503031559841.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html Karen Ellis Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Fri Mar 4 15:44:19 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:44:19 -0600 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <200503041504.j24F4V1m015836@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: Non-US generic use: When I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for a summer (1997, I think), my se~nora referred to any soft drink as "una coca." Sra. Alvarez would ask, "?Quieres una coca?" and then give me the equivalent of Sprite. At the time, it made me homesick for Alabama. When I worked as a hostess in a restaurant during high school, I would take drink orders from customers. When people said they wanted a coke, I learned I should ask what kind. Rachel Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: COKE in the South > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US > sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place > for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had > Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; > seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) > > Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status > than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it > was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, > according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently > displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a > high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian > champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) > > In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order > for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and > was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and > once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda > asked what year it was. > > What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) > as a generic? > > dInIs > > > >>From: RonButters at AOL.COM >>: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: >> >>:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >>:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >>:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >>:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? >> >> >> >>: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >>: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >>: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >>: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >>: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >>: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >>: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >>: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >>: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >>: there use is plural. >> >> >> >>: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >>: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >>: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >>: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >>: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >>: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >>: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >>: of course, modern advertising... >> >>Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >>IMObservation), but, that said... >> >>I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >>one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >>'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >>only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get >>and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >>in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents >>of all ages. >> >>It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, >>perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and >>(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. >> >> >> >>David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >> Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >> house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 15:48:19 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:48:19 -0600 Subject: Sammies revisited Message-ID: For anyone interested, one of my students here says "sammies" for "sandwich (and her kids do, too). She's 37 and lives near Stanley, ND. Her background is Scots-irish and Norwegian and she's traveled very little outside of ND. They especially like "hammie sammies" : ) Just in case anyone's collecting data on who says this and where. Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 15:56:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:56:31 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:02:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:02:42 -0500 Subject: COKE in the S outh In-Reply-To: <12b.5809e7a7.2f59d931@aol.com> Message-ID: Ron, Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are permitted on this list. dInIs >Of course, how one says 'soft drink' in Polish does not tell us a thing about >the current state of the morpheme COKE in the English language in America >(where it has a number of meanings, by the way, that are not >associated with soft >drinks). > >In a message dated 3/4/05 10:05:17 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US >> sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place >> for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had >> Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; >> seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) >> >> Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status >> than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it >> was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, >> according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently >> displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a >> high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian >> champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) >> >> In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order >> for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and >> was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and >> once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda >> asked what year it was. >> >> What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) >> as a generic? >> >> dInIs >> >> >> >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >> >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: >> > >> >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >> >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >> >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >> >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? >> > >> > >> > >> >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >> >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >> >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >> >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >> >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >> >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >> >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >> >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >> >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >> >: there use is plural. >> > >> > >> > >> >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >> >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >> >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >> >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >> >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >> >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >> >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >> >: of course, modern advertising... >> > >> >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >> >IMObservation), but, that said... >> > >> >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >> >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >> >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >> >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can >> get >> >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >> >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from >> respondents >> >of all ages. >> > >> >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, > > >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts >of Idaho and >> >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. >> > >> > >> > >> >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >> > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >> > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 16:10:14 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:10:14 -0600 Subject: "matters" = "depends" Message-ID: One more interesting item this morning. I have a student who consistently uses "matters" to mean "depends." E.g.: if asked whether she could go out tonight, she'd say 'it matters if I have homework or not." where I would say 'depends." Anyhow have any idea of the origins/region of this switching? or other examples? Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:12:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:12:54 -0500 Subject: Genericide was Re: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F2@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 9:38 AM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >> : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >> : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >> : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for >> some people, >> : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >> : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >> : generic use. > >Genericide is not in the OED. > >>>From the Hein Online legal database. Nothing better in Lexis/Nexis, and >I don't have Westlaw. > >Vol 20 No. 1 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. p.7 Fall, 1978 >Generic Trademarks, the FTC and the Lanham Act: Covering the Market with >Formica; Shipley, David E. > >" "Genericide," the metamorphosis of a distinctive mark into a generic >term, ordinarily results from several factors >which often are difficult to identify; concomitantly, the deterioration >of the trademark may be equally difficult to abate. " As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing of a generic? Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:21:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:21:32 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:55:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny chanting, > >Acka backa soda cracka, >Acka backa boo! >Acka backa soda cracka, >Out goes you! Hmm, I don't remember that one. But I do remember the scene in "Super Rabbit" (Chuck Jones, 1943) in which Bugs acts like a cheerleader and gets Cottontail Smith (and his horse) to chant: Bricka-bracka, firecracka, Sis boom bah! Bugs Bunny, Bugs Bunny, Rah rah rah! http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/bugs_bunny/ltbb_353.wav --Ben Zimmer From larry at SCROGGS.COM Fri Mar 4 16:25:08 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:25:08 -0800 Subject: Chickens with their head cut off Message-ID: This was a regular occurrence on my grandparents' farm. My grandmother usually used the "snap of the wrist" method and my grandfather preferred to use a hatchet while holding the chicken on a tree stump. My grandparents' home had an open crawlspace under it and my job, when I was a small lad, was to crawl under the house to recover any chicken that ran under the house after having its head removed. My grandmother could make quite a tasty dish of chicken and dumplings. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com On Mar 3, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age > phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed > (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting > of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold > its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken > with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I > caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > > I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many > birds to the big coop in the sky. > > dInIs From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:26:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:26:06 -0800 Subject: perpetrator / perpetrate / perpetrative Message-ID: Maybe this was discussed long ago. "Perpetrator" has recently generalized into "wrongdoer or miscreant," and comes with the corresponding "perpetrate" and "perpetrative." These are just a few exx. (It helps to misspell the word.) "I just dont want to do recovery with you, and I find your unsoliceted opinions unwelcomed and perpatrative to me. "I dont expect you to understand that you are a perpatrator, nor more then I expect Ice or Buff or Kaitlyn to understand they are perpatrators." ------"Hey Mensa Head," alt.abuse.recovery (June 29, 1997). "the Christian Nazi . . . got to perpatrate on Sonoma County Citizens legally ----"Another SAMM Voter Recommendation, "alt.california (Oct. 24, 1998). "No, you kicked your daughter out, that make you a perpatrator." ----"evolution is chance as explained by scientists," alt.info-science (Apr. 6, 1999). "How many people would now stop to help you if you were down and injured by some nasty perpatrator not many I can tell ya." ----"The Good Ole Days?" alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic (May 26, 1999). I don't call these usages slang. They undoubtedly derive from a simple misunderstanding of the customary meaning of "perpetrator" via the popular division of society into "perpetrators and victims." Of slang interest, however, are the rap / hip-hop terms "perpetrator / perpetrate" meaning "pretender, poseur" and "to pretend to be what one is not." Pamela Munro's students at UCLA provided the earliest citations in 1988-89. "Perp" abbreviates both noun and verb. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:29:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:29:22 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: That's what happens in my brain. The "earworm," however, belies the glib generalization on the same page that "Music Makes You Smarter." JL Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround Subject: Re: "Earworm" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html Karen Ellis Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:32:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:32:52 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: Obviously I was being earwormed when I posted the previous message. I'd apologize, but it's that damned "Jingle Bell Rock" again. JL Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:37:41 2005 From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Sylvia Swift) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:37:41 -0800 Subject: Fwd: query: know any linguists or social scientists that know about "play"? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 4 16:46:13 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:46:13 -0500 Subject: "matters" = "depends" In-Reply-To: <42288866.5060906@netscape.net> Message-ID: >One more interesting item this morning. I have a student who >consistently uses "matters" to mean "depends." E.g.: if asked whether >she could go out tonight, she'd say 'it matters if I have homework or >not." where I would say 'depends." > >Anyhow have any idea of the origins/region of this switching? or other >examples? > >Patti ~~~~~~~~~~ This rings a faint bell -- probably going back to my Nebraska childhood before WWII -- and I find it associated with "rether" for "whether," as in (using your e.g.) "it matters rether I have homework or not." A. Murie From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 16:55:07 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:55:07 -0600 Subject: "'dirty joke" Message-ID: OED has 1913 for "dirty joke" REV. SAM JONES. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Mar 21, 1896; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5/col 3 "A preacher not long since said to a saloon keeper standing in his door in this city: 'Don't you sometimes get tired of this business?' 'Oh,' said the saloon keeper, 'if you could see the crowd that gathers here and hear their dirty, filthy jokes and horrid oaths, you would think hell was going on earth.' " From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 17:05:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:05:20 -0800 Subject: "'dirty joke" Message-ID: So was that yes or no? JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: "'dirty joke" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OED has 1913 for "dirty joke" REV. SAM JONES. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Mar 21, 1896; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5/col 3 "A preacher not long since said to a saloon keeper standing in his door in this city: 'Don't you sometimes get tired of this business?' 'Oh,' said the saloon keeper, 'if you could see the crowd that gathers here and hear their dirty, filthy jokes and horrid oaths, you would think hell was going on earth.' " __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 17:42:33 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: My favorite spam quote of the day: Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 17:43:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:43:07 -0500 Subject: perpetrator / perpetrate / perpetrative Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:26:06 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Of slang interest, however, are the rap / hip-hop terms "perpetrator / >perpetrate" meaning "pretender, poseur" and "to pretend to be what one >is not." Pamela Munro's students at UCLA provided the earliest citations >in 1988-89. The verb appears earlier than that in rap lyrics. It might have started off as "perpetrate a fraud" and gotten clipped from there... ---- Bitin your moves, takin fake awards Sayin everyone else is perpetratin the frauds. --Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, "Step Off" (1984) ---- For all you sucker MCs perpetratin a fraud Your rhymes are cold wack and keep the crowd cold lost. --Run-D.M.C., "Rock Box" (1984) ---- You run round talkin bout what you hate Livin your life just to perpetrate. --Run-D.M.C., "You're Blind" (1985) ---- We slay all suckers who perpetrate And lay down law from state to state. --Run-D.M.C., "My Adidas" (1986) ---- Cheap-skate, perpetrating, money-hungry jerk Everyday I drink a "O.E." and I don't go to work. --Beastie Boys, "Hold It Now, Hit It" (1986) ---- That's when I saw this beautiful girlie girl walkin I picked up my car phone to perpetrate like I was talkin. --DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince, "Parents Just Don't Understand" (1988) ---- And "perpetrator" is just as old, with the shift to the 'poseur' sense occurring early on: ---- You forgot the words of your creator And now he's made you a perpetrator. --Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, "Step Off" (1984) ---- The lovers and the taker, faker, lovers of the Lakers Simulator, rap traitor, perfect perpetrator. --LL Cool J, "Rock the Bells" (1986) ---- Discriminators, perpetrators, educators, legislators Dominators, people haters known as segregators. --The Boogie Boys, "Colorblind World" (1986) ---- Perpetrators in the business claim their hard as hell Talkin that gangster shit, knowin they're soft as jell - Oh! --Ice-T, "Rhyme Pays" (1987) ---- I'm a crowd motivator, MC annihilator Never front the move cause I'm not a perpetrator. --MC Shan, "Kill That Noise" (1987) ---- To have MCs coming out sounding so similar It's quite confusing for you to remember The originator, and boy do I hate a Perpetrator, but I'm much greater. --Big Daddy Kane, "Ain't No Half-Steppin'" (1988) ---- Many more examples here: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:ohhla.com+perpetrate|perpetratin|perpetrating|perpetrated|perpetrator|perpetrators --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:24:01 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:24:01 EST Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,...  But here > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > conversion TO a generic:  the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > of a generic? > > Larry > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) obviously difficult to remember. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:28:51 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:28:51 EST Subject: COKE in Poland Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 11:03:02 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Ron, > > Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are > permitted on this list. > > dInIs > You got me there. In fact (and this is NOT a complaint), there is hardly any form of curiosity, intellectual or otherwise, that is not exhibited on this list. The way to order a soft drink in Poland a couple of decades ago seems a lot closer to the topic of American dialects than a lot of stuff we talk about. And, as with everything that dInIs says, it certainly engages one's intellectual curiosity. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:32:15 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:32:15 EST Subject: LAS COCAS Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 10:45:01 AM, rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU writes: > Non-US generic use: When I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for a summer > (1997, I think), my se~nora referred to any soft drink as "una coca." > Sra. Alvarez would ask, "?Quieres una coca?" and then give me the > equivalent of Sprite. At the time, it made me homesick for Alabama. When > I worked as a hostess in a restaurant during high school, I would take > drink orders from customers. When people said they wanted a coke, I > learned I should ask what kind. > Rachel > This is what I remember from Guadalajara in the 1970s, too. One could ask, "?Hay cocas?" as well as (as I recall) "... refrescas?" I remember asking once for "bebidas" (at a pushcart in a park in Mexico City) and was told that they had no alcoholic drinks. From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 4 18:33:06 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:33:06 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <200503040829704.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ya gotta just hope for the best :-) k At 11:29 AM 3/4/2005, you wrote: >That's what happens in my brain. The "earworm," however, belies the glib >generalization on the same page that "Music Makes You Smarter." > >JL > > >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of > >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of > >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > >FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. >http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html > >Karen Ellis >Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround 7 Hot Site Awards from New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty "I wish I was a glow worm, A glow worm's never glum, How could you be unhappy, when the sun shines out your bum!" Anon <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:33:20 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:33:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.  It is > virtually the only word I hear for it. > > The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - > perhaps for obvious reasons. > I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 4 18:38:42 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:38:42 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <1ed.3701ee93.2f5a01c1@aol.com> Message-ID: Though my descriptivist training restrains me from quibbling, personally I've always felt exactly as Larry does -- that "genericide" is a patently self-contradictory coinage by people whose real interest obviously isn't in language. Even descriptivists have their private likes and dislikes, I guess. At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA meetings.) Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 4 Mar 2005, at 13:24, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here > > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > > conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > > of a generic? > > > > Larry > > > > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ > the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a > prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, > prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane > linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by > someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and > that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to > it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) > obviously difficult to remember. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 18:52:02 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:52:02 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > My favorite spam quote of the day: > > a fatal plane crash 2 years ago.> In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used for "deceased". -- Alice Faber From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:17:58 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: COKE in Poland In-Reply-To: <195.3a2c876b.2f5a02e3@aol.com> Message-ID: Aw shucks. dInIs >In a message dated 3/4/05 11:03:02 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> Ron, >> >> Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are >> permitted on this list. >> >> dInIs >> > >You got me there. > >In fact (and this is NOT a complaint), there is hardly any form of curiosity, >intellectual or otherwise, that is not exhibited on this list. The way to >order a soft drink in Poland a couple of decades ago seems a lot closer to the >topic of American dialects than a lot of stuff we talk about. And, as with >everything that dInIs says, it certainly engages one's intellectual curiosity. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:36:28 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:36:28 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4228AE52.7030206@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: >In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective >Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used >for "deceased". Thanks. I have read only one of those books and somehow missed this. Its use must be widespread, right? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:39:13 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:39:13 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= In-Reply-To: <15d.4bdb6cd6.2f5a03f0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >> perhaps for obvious reasons. Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:40:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <1ed.3701ee93.2f5a01c1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:24 PM -0500 3/4/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >> of a generic? >> >> Larry >> > >I don't think that I got this message, It was when I was thanking you for sending me your paper on the topic: ========== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:31:01 -0500 To: Ron Butters From: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: 16.520, Review: Historical Ling: Curzan & Emmons (2004) (P.S. I find "genericide" clever but a bit misleading, since it's not the generic which is killed off, but the specific killed off by the generic, right? Rather different from suicide, matricide, genocide, and the other players on that -cide.) ========== > but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ >the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a >prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, >prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. Purist shmurist; let's try to keep the discourse civil and avoid slurs. All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning "capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, make the most of it. > There is also an arcane >linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now >(invented perhaps by >someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and >that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a >nice ring to >it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) >obviously difficult to remember. I began using the term "antonomasia" for the process after I noticed a paper Roger Shuy presented on the topic (using that term) at the LSA or a satellite conference. Looking it up on the internet, I see that it does indeed have that meaning (although perhaps a broader range of applications as well), and has the advantage of opaque enough to not appear to signify the opposite of what it is designed to signify. Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:47:03 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:47:03 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: > > >>In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective >>Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used >>for "deceased". > > > Thanks. I have read only one of those books and somehow missed this. Its > use must be widespread, right? I don't remember it in the first book in the series, but it definitely recurs in the later books. -- Alice Faber From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:55:05 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:55:05 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4228BB37.9000305@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: >I don't remember it in the first book in the series, but it definitely >recurs in the later books. Ah - that is the only one I have read. Bethany From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Mar 4 19:55:41 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:55:41 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at odds with its morphology. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning "capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, make the most of it. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:02:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: "dope" and taboo (was: COKE in the Maryland) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:39 PM -0500 3/4/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >>> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >>> perhaps for obvious reasons. > >Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and >otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. > >Bethany as we'd expect with taboo avoidance; cf. jackass. Or the fact that the French still use _baiser_ ('to fuck') with its original meaning ('kiss') as a noun, or in contextually disambiguated verbal contexts (_baiser la main_). Larry (Of course, some might argue that speakers know that _baiser_ *really* still has just the one sense of 'kiss', but is just *used in a shorthand way* to mean 'fuck'...) From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:05:24 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:05:24 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: In Ann Arbor - Ypsilanti, at last fifteen years ago, the buses had a sign which read "Do not stand in front of the standee line when bus is moving." dInIs > But there are other words that are used in senses at odds >with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that >the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing >escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another >example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one >who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in >lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at >odds with its morphology. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:41 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? > > > >All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >make the most of it. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:06:41 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:06:41 -0500 Subject: "dope" and taboo (was: COKE in the Maryland) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: >>>> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >>>> perhaps for obvious reasons. >> >>Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and >>otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. >> > >as we'd expect with taboo avoidance; cf. jackass. Or the fact that >the French still use _baiser_ ('to fuck') with its original meaning >('kiss') as a noun, or in contextually disambiguated verbal contexts >(_baiser la main_). I have never seen any evidence that taboo avoidance is at play with use of the word dope meaning generic coke. The contextual restrictions I am familiar with (in East Tennessee) involve age, rurality, and level of education. I know speakers who NEVER use any other word for generic coke. Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:49:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:49:46 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >>> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >>> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >>> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >>> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >>> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >>> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >>> of a generic? [...] >All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >make the most of it. What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. --Ben Zimmer From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 4 21:21:30 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:21:30 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: >John Baker writes: > .... But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with their >morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who >escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the escapee, >but a different meaning prevails.... < ~~~~~~~~ "Absentee" is an example that I have always thought particularly silly-looking. In the case of frequently-seen "retiree" one could suppose the retirement was involuntary, which suggests another possibility: "resignee" for people actually fired but who are described, for political reasons, as having resigned (in order to spend more time with their families, or whatever). A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 21:20:18 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:20:18 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"dope"=20and=20tabo?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?o=20(was:=20COKE=20in=20the=20Maryland)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 3:02:49 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > (Of course, some might argue that speakers know that _baiser_ > *really* still has just the one sense of 'kiss', but is just *used in > a shorthand way* to mean 'fuck'...) > huh-uh From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 21:26:24 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:26:24 EST Subject: keeping the discourse civil and avoiding slurs Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 2:41:19 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Purist shmurist; let's try to keep the discourse civil and avoid slurs. > Mine was, I confess, a somewhat sardonic reference to Larry's "aren't you being prescriptivist" comment about my original objection to someone's usage of GENERIC to refer to the shorthand (quasigeneric) use of KLEENEX. But I did not take that to be an uncivil slur. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 21:28:39 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:28:39 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > But there are other words that are used in senses at odds >with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that >the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing >escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another >example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one >who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in >lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at >odds with its morphology. -ee is indeed interesting, but note that the animacy restriction is much stronger than the semantic/grammatical role restriction (essentially = non-agent), so an escapee could never be a jail, for example. (There are some counterexamples, such an attested reference to a tomato plant as a "drownee", but they always seem to involve personification.) Could it be the jailer, or a police officer? It doesn't seem as though it really could, in that -ee doesn't seem to be that easy to get with source arguments (cf. *evadee). I've argued (no doubt unpersuasively) that an escapee is so-called because s/he was involuntarily housed in whatever place s/he escaped from, in which case "escapee" is sort of like "standee" in the nonvolitionality dimension--a glarfee is someone who was forced to glarf--even if the "escapee" does seem like an agent even more than a "standee" does. (A very comprehensive treatment of the -ee case is given in Chris Barker's 1998 paper, "Episodic -ee in English: A thematic role constraint on new word formation", Language 74: 695-727.) The result is that "escapee" and "standee", while they may need some explanation (or at least more sophisticated hand-waving) don't really mean the opposite of what they would be predicted to mean given the word-formation rule involved, and in any case if there's only one argument of the verb, we just assign whatever role we have around when we're interpreting the -ee noun. "Looker", on the other hand, is a real problem. And yes, it has always bothered me, I admit it. I'm not claiming that no ambiguities of this sort are possible, even with -ee ("masturbatee", for example, is attested for both 'someone who is masturbated' and 'someone who is masturbated to', à la "fantasizee"), but part of the problem is that (as Barker's article nicely demonstrates) it's really quite hard to give the actual semantic constraints on -ee affixation. In the case of -cide, on the other hand, it seems entirely straightforward: an X(i)cide is a killing (or killer) of (an) X. X is always (except for "genericide", to be sure) the theme/patient, the killee, never (just) the agent or the instrument, the killer. (In a suicide, X is by definition both killer and killee.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 21:47:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:47:13 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <3940.69.142.143.59.1109969386.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 3:49 PM -0500 3/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >>>> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >>>> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >>>> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >>>> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >>>> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >>>> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >>>> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >>>> of a generic? >[...] >>All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >>morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >>totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >>and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >>example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >>be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >>"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >>the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >>make the most of it. > >What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? > >autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) >copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) >medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) > >Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but >they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the >instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could >be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. Ah, good point. I can certainly imagine "copicide" in the sense of "cop-killing", and have seen "suicide by cop" [25,400 google hits] a lot more often than "copicide" [321 google hits. But they certainly exist and do have instrumental and not theme readings on the relevant senses. I think that they definitely are blends and that the "suicide" part is essential--could a nurse who kills patients by medication be said to commit medicide? (I suppose that would be homicide + meds.) What about accidental overdoses, which also involve death by means of medication? One interesting question is then whether that was in fact the intention underlying the formation of "genericide": the idea being that the brands themselves are acting as agents and gradually committing suicide and using genericization as the means to that end. Not impossible, I admit. Let's check "commit genericide": yup, there are a few, anyway, with the "suicide" understanding. Verrrry interesting. OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. Larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 4 22:01:32 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:01:32 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: The last time I remember this happening was in 1993, but I skipped a bunch of DSNA meetings after that, so the custom might have died out well afterwards, for all I know. I apologize if I came across as anti-attorney. Obviously, many lawyers are extremely literate and scholarly; where would a historical lexicographer be without them? It just bugged me a lot to be finger-wagged about how to handle sensitive lexicographical matters by people who had an obvious financial interest in shortchanging the purely linguistic side of things. (If you're an academic, imagine being herded into a room by budget-slashing government officials and told, "Enough with the expensive conferences and academic journals -- you intellectuals need to make up your minds about what you think!") Joanne On 4 Mar 2005, at 16:28, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/4/05 1:44:14 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > > > > At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while > > partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- > > sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA > > meetings.) > > > How long ago was that? I don't remember this at all, and personally would be > in favor or reviving it! > ------- End of forwarded message ------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:12:35 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:12:35 EST Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English, when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most scholars who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles on the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (or was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can be used in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but it certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter): 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you" + "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all" is rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsiders trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorically that it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently because people on the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that have been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees trying to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as some of the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatically possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconscious utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they would do so seems a historical and linguistic mystery). A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological and social function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clear to anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I'm not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. > > In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the average > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many > Southern academics and intellectuals. > > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does > exist.  My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.  This is not new, > and hardly peculiar to this list.  I find it amazing and symptomatic - of > what I'm not certain. > > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and always) > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instance > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-person plural > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,  the Southern > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took for > a furriner, etc. > > What gives?  I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one.  And > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this > sensitivity. > > JL > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:19:43 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:19:43 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Is=20GENERICIDE=20a?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20bad=20choice=20or=20morphemes=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 5:06:52 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > The last time I remember this happening was in 1993, but I skipped > a bunch of DSNA meetings after that, so the custom might have > died out well afterwards, for all I know. > > I apologize if I came across as anti-attorney.  Obviously, many > lawyers are extremely literate and scholarly; where would a > historical lexicographer be without them?  It just bugged me a lot to > be finger-wagged about how to handle sensitive lexicographical > matters by people who had an obvious financial interest in > shortchanging the purely linguistic side of things.  (If you're an > academic, imagine being herded into a room by budget-slashing > government officials and told, "Enough with the expensive > conferences and academic journals -- you intellectuals need to > make up your minds about what you think!") > > Joanne > Wish I'd been there--it must have been quite a scene. Can we invite them to Boston and wave back? From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:32:36 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:32:36 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Is=20GENERICIDE=20a?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20bad=20choice=20or=20morphemes=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 4:47:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term > very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which > the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the > genericization.  And that's not the general phenomenon under > discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly > Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. > It is not easy to imagine a company deliberately genericizing its own product name, nor even how it could be done. Legally, it is always the linguistic knowledge of ordinary speakers that is the issue. I have been using the term GENERICIDE for several years, and I honestly never thought of the etymological problem that Larry brings up. Part of the problem is that -CIDE implies killing, whereas nobody really sets out to kill a brand name, it just happens as a sort of natural sociolinguistic process. Of course, as we all know, people are not very consistent in coining words from classical-language morphemes. Didn't people object to HOMOSEXUAL because HOMO is Greek and SEX is Latin? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 22:59:09 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:59:09 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: > > All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive > morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in > a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is > misleading at best and doomed at worst. . . . . > > I began using the term "antonomasia" for the process after I > noticed a paper Roger Shuy presented on the topic (using that > term) at the LSA or a satellite conference. Looking it up on > the internet, I see that it does indeed have that meaning > (although perhaps a broader range of applications as well), > and has the advantage of opaque enough to not appear to > signify the opposite of what it is designed to signify. > Forgive a rank amateur for weighing in so, but: Even after hearing the arguments against "genericide" and for "antonomasia", it's hard for me to consider the former "doomed", especially when compared with the latter. When I heard the word "genericide" in this context (and I had never heard it before, ever), it had a sense of "rightness" in application that "antonomasia" doesn't come close to getting. The fact that "genericide" sticks in the memory much better than "antonomasia" (see, for example, Ron Butters' difficulty in recalling it) makes it a more useful term, while the opaqueness of "antonomasia" is a strike against it. And it is being used, to fulfill the need for a word with the meaning that "genericide" has under this discussion. The Hein Online legal database has 71 cites for "genericide", and only 5 for "antonomasia" -- and all of the "antonomasia" cites are in its context as a figure of classical rhetoric, none in the Kleenex/Xerox/Fridgidaire sense. English is full of quirks. We may be watching one develop, with "genericide". From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:03:11 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:03:11 -0600 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: The only point I'd take issue with from Ron's post is the following: 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all" is rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsiders trying to sound like insiders. The development of plural 2nd person pronouns into singulars (often conveying politeness or formality originally) is motivated psychologically and/or socially. We all know about the European examples (English you, French vous, German sie, even Spanish Usted comes from vuestra (2nd person plural possessive) + merced "grace" - I hope I'm remembering this right). I believe this is common elsewhere in the world as well. And in the French and German cases the polite/formal singular forms retain their plural meanings, so the suggestion that the transparent plurality of one form might prevent it from developing into a singular isn't persuasive. The development from plural to deferential singular makes sense b/c the plural is less threateningly direct (e.g. "I wasn't talking about just you, I was talking about all yall"). So in talking to a social superior you could use the plural as a more indirect form of address. Eventually the semantic component of plurality is seen as optional and the form comes to mean "polite" singular and maybe eventually just singular. I'm sure others on the list can explain this more eloquently. My point is that, based on cross-linguistic evidence, we might expect that yall would develop into a (polite) singular eventually. Whether or not it actually has done this is a different issue. -Matt Gordon From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:08:27 2005 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:08:27 -0600 Subject: LAS COCAS In-Reply-To: <200503041832.j24IWXg8020135@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: In Southern California, that expression ?Quieres coca? has yet another meaning to do with the drug. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:40:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:40:03 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:47:13 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 3:49 PM -0500 3/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? >> >>autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) >>copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) >>medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) >> >>Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but >>they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the >>instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could >>be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. > >Ah, good point. I can certainly imagine "copicide" in the sense of >"cop-killing", and have seen "suicide by cop" [25,400 google hits] a >lot more often than "copicide" [321 google hits. But they certainly >exist and do have instrumental and not theme readings on the relevant >senses. I think that they definitely are blends and that the >"suicide" part is essential--could a nurse who kills patients by >medication be said to commit medicide? (I suppose that would be >homicide + meds.) What about accidental overdoses, which also >involve death by means of medication? > >One interesting question is then whether that was in fact the >intention underlying the formation of "genericide": the idea being >that the brands themselves are acting as agents and gradually >committing suicide and using genericization as the means to that end. >Not impossible, I admit. Let's check "commit genericide": yup, >there are a few, anyway, with the "suicide" understanding. Verrrry >interesting. OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term >very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which >the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the >genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under >discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly >Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. It's possible to create a nonce "X-icide" form that has the instrumental sense (killing by means of X) but is *not* related to committing suicide. Such forms aren't very common, but they're out there. Here are two I found: ----- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/0ad3590c9c85e3c9 I occasionally got up and got another glass of wine and some more food until poor Bill had to haul my inebriated self to the hotel. And it was worth every brain cell that died due to chardonnay-icide. ----- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-154600.html I know how hype can easily ruin a good film, so I do empathize with you on this. [...] yeah, i think it may have been a case of hype-icide for me... ----- The first example might be considered borderline, since it's still one's *own* brain cells that are being killed by Chardonnay. But the second is clearly non-suicidal: "hype-icide" = 'the killing of one's enjoyment of a film due to advance hype'. That seems pretty close to "genericide" = 'the killing of a trademark due to genericization'. I was going to mention the old form "aborticide" = 'the killing of a fetus by means of abortion' (in OED, RHUD, and Webster's 1913), but it turns out the etymology of that is "abort[us]" + "-icide", where "abortus" means 'an aborted fetus', so it's not instrumental. It's an unusual form, though-- resultative, perhaps, since aborticide results in an abortus? --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 23:46:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:46:17 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: Spamicide shows up in Google as both "death to spam" and "dying from an overload of spam". From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 23:54:34 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:54:34 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: Also seen: Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 00:26:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:26:20 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: In theory. But most people still learn the meaning of "coke" (the soft-drink plant's product )long before they learn the meaning of "coke" (the coca plant's product). So "coke" is presumably more strongly imprinted in their vocabularies than is "coke." As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and less common on campus. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.=A0 It= is=20 > virtually the only word I hear for it. >=20 > The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore -=20 > perhaps for obvious reasons. >=20 I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 00:31:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:31:25 -0800 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? JL "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joanne M. Despres" Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though my descriptivist training restrains me from quibbling, personally I've always felt exactly as Larry does -- that "genericide" is a patently self-contradictory coinage by people whose real interest obviously isn't in language. Even descriptivists have their private likes and dislikes, I guess. At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA meetings.) Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 4 Mar 2005, at 13:24, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here > > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > > conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > > of a generic? > > > > Larry > > > > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ > the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a > prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, > prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane > linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by > someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and > that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to > it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) > obviously difficult to remember. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:21:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:21:15 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <12d.5772dd38.2f5a3c04@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:32 PM -0500 3/4/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 3/4/05 4:47:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term >> very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which >> the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the >> genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under >> discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly >> Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. >> > >It is not easy to imagine a company deliberately genericizing its own product >name, nor even how it could be done. Legally, it is always the linguistic >knowledge of ordinary speakers that is the issue. Well, actually some of the web sites did seem to warn companies not to "commit genericide" in just this way, but it was pretty rare. > >I have been using the term GENERICIDE for several years, and I honestly never >thought of the etymological problem that Larry brings up. Part of the problem >is that -CIDE implies killing, whereas nobody really sets out to kill a brand >name, it just happens as a sort of natural sociolinguistic process. Aha--just so, which makes the analogy with the "copicide" et al. examples (= 'suicide by means of X') Ben brought up earlier less compelling, leaving us with the nonce "hype-icide"-type nonce wordss as models for the intended "genericide", if nonce words can be models. But on top of that, there's the garden path (= killing off of a generic form) based on the far more usual theme/patient pattern. I can imagine, for example, someone calling for the genericide of sex-neutral "he"/"man" language, but again that's the opposite of the intended sense for the antonomasia cases. >Of >course, as we all know, people are not very consistent in coining words from >classical-language morphemes. Didn't people object to HOMOSEXUAL >because HOMO is >Greek and SEX is Latin? Yes they did, but that was dumb (given inter alia the countless etymological hybrids in the language). The issue of misparsing (as equivalent, presumably, to "tautosexual", meaning 'of the same sex? as derived from the Lat. "homo" = 'person'?) is much less likely to have arisen in that case. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 01:30:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: Most of what you say below, Ron, is quite unexceptionable. But surely there was no good linguistic reason for the loss of the OE dual pronoun or a great many other phenomena discussed here, including the various reversals of meaning currently under discussion. (It's not quite parallel, but what about the creation and Tidewater spread of "mongst-ye" as a second-person plural? Truly a strange development.) Once plural "y'all" gets sufficiently lexicalized that speakers no longer think of it as two morphemes, there's little enough to stop them from using it in the singular. As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" implied. The earliest discussion cited by Mencken came in 1907 by Virginian C. Alphonso Smith, reportedly a denier of singular "y'all." In contrast, Mencken also cites Vance Randolph's assertion in the 1920s that he heard singular "y'all" in the Ozarks on a daily basis. One reason I checked Mencken was to see whether he makes any sweeping, unsupported claims about the usage of singular "y'all." He does not. He agrees with all of us that it accounts for a small percentage of all usages. The existence of singular "y'all" even in frozen expressions is very significant, because it opens the door for more widespread use in the future. Although a single respondent's claim to be a user of singular "y'all" proves little about actual usage, the existence of many such claimants reveals their understanding that the second morpheme in "y'all" is indeed no longer morphemic. One should be cautious, however, about Internet claims by laypersons that "y'all" is singular and "y'alls" is plural. The posters may be using the term "singular" in an ad hoc way, i.e., "not redundantly plural like 'y'alls'." Is there a good linguistic reason for the existence of "y'alls" as something of a "superplural"? I've never heard it myself. There is both empirical and theoretical evidence for the existence of singular "y'all." The details of its distribution remain murky. What will DARE say about these grammatical matters ? JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I=20 am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English= ,=20 when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all=20 come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the=20 singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to=20 demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most sc= holars=20 who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles=20= on=20 the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (o= r=20 was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a=20 healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can=20= be used=20 in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but i= t=20 certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter)= : 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you"=20= +=20 "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for=20 speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all= " is=20 rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT=20 "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsid= ers=20 trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom=20 putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated=20 Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorical= ly that=20 it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for=20 wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently becaus= e people on=20 the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that hav= e=20 been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It=20 "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees tryi= ng=20 to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the=20 question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a=20 grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as= some of=20 the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other=20 Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatic= ally=20 possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconsc= ious=20 utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone=20 fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they woul= d do=20 so seems a historical and linguistic mystery).=20 A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what=20 circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological=20= and social=20 function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against=20 against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clea= r to=20 anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I= 'm=20 not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. >=20 >=20 In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own=20 > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the= average=20 > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many= =20 > Southern academics and intellectuals. >=20 > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does=20 > exist.=A0 My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some=20= s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.=A0 Thi= s is not new,=20 > and hardly peculiar to this list.=A0 I find it amazing and symptomatic - o= f=20 > what I'm not certain. >=20 > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to= =20 > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and alw= ays)=20 > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instan= ce=20 > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a=20 > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-perso= n plural=20 > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,=A0 the South= ern=20 > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took=20= for=20 > a furriner, etc. >=20 > What gives?=A0 I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming= =20 > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one= .=A0 And=20 > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this=20 > sensitivity. >=20 > JL >=20 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:34:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:34:27 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F7@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 4:59 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Forgive a rank amateur for weighing in so, We're all equal-rank amateurs here as English wielders, assuming trademark lawyers don't get to tip the scales. > but: > >Even after hearing the arguments against "genericide" and for >"antonomasia", it's hard for me to consider the former "doomed", >especially when compared with the latter. When I heard the word >"genericide" in this context (and I had never heard it before, ever), it >had a sense of "rightness" in application that "antonomasia" doesn't >come close to getting. The fact that "genericide" sticks in the memory >much better than "antonomasia" (see, for example, Ron Butters' >difficulty in recalling it) makes it a more useful term, while the >opaqueness of "antonomasia" is a strike against it. Well, I'll certain remember "genericide"; the tricky thing is figuring out what it means, but I concede I'll remember that now too. And I'm quite willing to acknowledge it does have a head start, containing the appropriate morphemes as it does. I just wish they fit together better. > >And it is being used, to fulfill the need for a word with the meaning >that "genericide" has under this discussion. The Hein Online legal >database has 71 cites for "genericide", and only 5 for "antonomasia" -- >and all of the "antonomasia" cites are in its context as a figure of >classical rhetoric, none in the Kleenex/Xerox/Fridgidaire sense. That may well be true for legal databases, but I note that googling "kleenex antonomasia" does pull up 68 hits. Granted, "kleenex genericide" gets you 141, but that is a closer vote than the Hein count. I never claimed "antonomasia" would win the lawyers' hearts (and that's assuming...no, I won't go there). > >English is full of quirks. We may be watching one develop, with >"genericide". Could be. I will go down arguing, but this may end up like the domination of the superior Apple technology by the more efficient and better bankrolled forces of evil. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:54:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:54:36 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Also seen: > >Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and >Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon Nice examples--but note that not one of these (including hype-icide and other examples cited earlier) is the X of Xicide a goal argument. For these to be truly parallel, one would have to use the Xicide item with the meaning 'to kill (off) Z by turning Z into X', i.e. to wipe someone out by turning them into Bush, a shoe, spam, etc., the way genericide kills Kleenex, scotch-tape, etc. as brand names by turning them into generics. One closer parallel might be "Borgicide", for death via assimilation into the Borg (in Star Trek Voyager). I tried googling this, but the results were inconclusive and I'm at a disadvantage, since basically all I know about the Borg is the association with "You Will Be Assimilated" line. Hey, maybe ethnic cleansing (e.g. "Russianizing" the Latvians, to use a failed attempt at doing so) isn't such a bad parallel. But that would still suggest "genericizing"/"genericization" rather than "genericide" as the appropriate nominal. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:56:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:56:06 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <20050305003126.71309.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:31 PM -0800 3/4/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. >Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The >obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. > >It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? > >JL > Two days ago I'd have said nothing. Now I'm reading it as "death/suicide by brandy", and I think I'm just about ready for it... L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 02:00:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:00:08 -0800 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: I thought of that possibility too, Larry, but I refrained from mentioning it. I snooze, I lose. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 4:31 PM -0800 3/4/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. >Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The >obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. > >It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? > >JL > Two days ago I'd have said nothing. Now I'm reading it as "death/suicide by brandy", and I think I'm just about ready for it... L __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 02:25:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:25:03 -0500 Subject: "Western Union" by Moss Hart (1954) In-Reply-To: <200503030416.j234Gil2007520@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Fred Shapiro found earlier for the "Western Union" quote. My earlier "find" turns out to be erroneous: the "Western Union" quote does not appear in Alva Johnston, The Great Goldwyn (1937). It also does not appear in the Goldwyn section in Bennett Cerf, Try and Stop Me (1944). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 02:29:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:29:14 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:54:36 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 5:54 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> Also seen: >> >>Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and >>Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon > >Nice examples--but note that not one of these (including hype-icide >and other examples cited earlier) is the X of Xicide a goal argument. And "shoeicide (bomber)" (or, in its appearance as the ADS Most Creative Word of 2001, "shuicide") falls into the category of "suicide" blends (autocide, copicide, medicide), where the instrument is a means for killing oneself. Of course, the instrument in this case is intended to kill others as well, but that gets into the tendentious grounds of "suicide" vs. "homicide" bombers... --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 02:44:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:44:52 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: The earliest "y'all" in OED - "you all," actually - is explicitly a singular. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I=20 am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English= ,=20 when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all=20 come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the=20 singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to=20 demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most sc= holars=20 who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles=20= on=20 the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (o= r=20 was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a=20 healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can=20= be used=20 in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but i= t=20 certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter)= : 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you"=20= +=20 "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for=20 speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all= " is=20 rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT=20 "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsid= ers=20 trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom=20 putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated=20 Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorical= ly that=20 it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for=20 wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently becaus= e people on=20 the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that hav= e=20 been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It=20 "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees tryi= ng=20 to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the=20 question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a=20 grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as= some of=20 the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other=20 Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatic= ally=20 possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconsc= ious=20 utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone=20 fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they woul= d do=20 so seems a historical and linguistic mystery).=20 A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what=20 circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological=20= and social=20 function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against=20 against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clea= r to=20 anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I= 'm=20 not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. >=20 >=20 In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own=20 > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the= average=20 > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many= =20 > Southern academics and intellectuals. >=20 > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does=20 > exist.=A0 My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some=20= s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.=A0 Thi= s is not new,=20 > and hardly peculiar to this list.=A0 I find it amazing and symptomatic - o= f=20 > what I'm not certain. >=20 > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to= =20 > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and alw= ays)=20 > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instan= ce=20 > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a=20 > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-perso= n plural=20 > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,=A0 the South= ern=20 > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took=20= for=20 > a furriner, etc. >=20 > What gives?=A0 I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming= =20 > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one= .=A0 And=20 > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this=20 > sensitivity. >=20 > JL >=20 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 5 02:45:31 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:45:31 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 02:47:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:47:27 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a version that I learned in the first grade (1942) in St. Louis: Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went over the hill to see the fight Adam and Eve came back that night Who stayed to see the fight? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny > chanting, > > Acka backa soda cracka, > Acka backa boo! > Acka backa soda cracka, > Out goes you! > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >> From: bapopik at AOL.COM >> Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), >> especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) >> >> WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >> Pg. 13: >> Finger Games >> >> Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >> Went down to the river to see the fight. >> Adam and Eve got home that night >> And who was left to see the fight? >> >> (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) >> >> In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >> Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >> story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 > Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all > went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to > be > saved." > Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and > then > said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] > ----- > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also > has: > > "Acker, backer, soda cracker, > Acker, backer, boo! > My father chews tobacker, > Out goes you." > > (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") > > "As I was going to Salt Lake > I met a little rattlesnake, > He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] > It made his little belly ache." > > "Engine number nine, > Stick your head in turpentine. > Turpentine make it shine > Engine number nine." > > ...etc., etc. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 03:18:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:18:58 -0500 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed >that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with >bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty >years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought >the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an >example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" >implied. Here's a relevant snippet from a 1958 article by Ora Spaid, Louisville Courier-Journal Religion Editor, "Does the Term 'Y'All' Have A Biblical Basis? You All Figure It Out." The y'all-ologists disagreed about the term's putative Biblical origins, but they were in accordance on one thing: ----- Oddly enough -- and on this the scholars were agreed -- the Southerner takes an unfair ribbing on his use of "you all." With some exceptions, the Southerner uses "you all" with plural meaning, but his Yankee adversary accuses him of using it in the singular. --Reprinted in: _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio), Sep. 20, 1958, p. 9 ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:30:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:30:40 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about = the South. =20 Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of = in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:38:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:38:51 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: That's an interesting comment. Southerners do get ribbed about using "y'all" - at all ! But Spaid seems to think they're being ribbed for using it as a singular. Which they do on occasion - as Spaid admits. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed >that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with >bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty >years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought >the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an >example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" >implied. Here's a relevant snippet from a 1958 article by Ora Spaid, Louisville Courier-Journal Religion Editor, "Does the Term 'Y'All' Have A Biblical Basis? You All Figure It Out." The y'all-ologists disagreed about the term's putative Biblical origins, but they were in accordance on one thing: ----- Oddly enough -- and on this the scholars were agreed -- the Southerner takes an unfair ribbing on his use of "you all." With some exceptions, the Southerner uses "you all" with plural meaning, but his Yankee adversary accuses him of using it in the singular. --Reprinted in: _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio), Sep. 20, 1958, p. 9 ----- --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 03:40:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:40:07 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always been annoyed by the fact that my company ID card reads "RETIREE" instead of "RETIRED." Well, maybe not. I was forced into retirement, so, perhaps, "RETIREE" is fitting, in my case. -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:21 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> John Baker writes: >> .... But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with >> their >> morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who >> escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the >> escapee, >> but a different meaning prevails.... < > ~~~~~~~~ > "Absentee" is an example that I have always thought particularly > silly-looking. > In the case of frequently-seen "retiree" one could suppose the > retirement > was involuntary, which suggests another possibility: "resignee" for > people > actually fired but who are described, for political reasons, as having > resigned (in order to spend more time with their families, or > whatever). > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sat Mar 5 03:46:29 2005 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:46:29 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <000601c5212d$667e8620$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: One theory seems to be that a child displaying a characteristic reminiscent of the departed parent (such as red hair) would inspire resentment in the step-parent. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: red-headed stepchild I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:54:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:54:10 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: Maybe one influence on the expression was the very well-known song "Joe Bowers," with its climactic revelation that "the baby had RED HA'R !" Of course it was an illegitimate baby, but even so.... JL Evan Morris wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Evan Morris Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One theory seems to be that a child displaying a characteristic reminiscent of the departed parent (such as red hair) would inspire resentment in the step-parent. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: red-headed stepchild I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 04:03:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:03:56 -0800 Subject: catharctic Message-ID: Prominent defense attorney Mickey Sherman said tonight on Court TV's "Catherine Crier Live" that he hoped Martha Stewart's stay in the big house was "a catharctic experience." "Catharctic" shows up on the Net nearly a thousand times. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 04:07:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:07:37 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What does "frail" mean in this context? There's also "beat like a rented mule." It appears to say that one would act more viciously toward a rented mule than toward one's own mule. But wouldn't damaging someone else's property cause more trouble than damaging one's own property? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a > red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. > > JL > > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor > about = > the South. =20 > > Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = > treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of > = > in history? > > samclem > Doing research on a Straightdope subject > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 04:20:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:20:45 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:39 AM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: A couple of phallicisms > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 3/3/05 4:42 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of phallicisms >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --> - >> >> My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk >> >> My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 >> >> My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my >> eyes >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Not so much hard as sweet: > > "I don't want to do this." I said. > He stepped back. He had an erection. "You don't like it?" > He rubbed himself with one hand. "My dick's so sweet, it'll give you > cavities." > -- Susanna Moore, 'In The Cut', Picador, London, 1996, 163 > > -Neil Crawford (who has come across 'hard as a policeman's nightstick') > I think that the difference lies between bragging to one's buddies in one case and trying to seduce a potential sexual partner in the other case. -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 5 04:44:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:44:23 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <000601c5212d$667e8620$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about >the South. > >Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be >treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in >history? I don't know of anything earlier. Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. Often a redheaded or cross-eyed or left-handed person was regarded as being a jinx ... along the lines of a black cat. Here are a couple of examples from N'archive: ---------- _Steubenville Herald_, Steubenville OH, 30 Nov. 1896: p. 3(?): <> ---------- _Lincoln Star_, Lincoln NE, 13 April 1934: p. 1: <> ---------- And consider this variant: ---------- _Reno Evening Gazette_, Reno NV, 28 April 1943: p. 2: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 5 04:56:59 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:56:59 -0500 Subject: Coke In-Reply-To: <20050305002620.19231.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: > In theory. But most people still learn the meaning of "coke" (the soft-drink plant's product )long before they learn the meaning of "coke" (the coca plant's product). So "coke" is presumably more strongly imprinted in their vocabularies than is "coke." > > As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and less common on campus. > > JL > > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? > = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > > >> "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.=A0 It= > is=20 >> virtually the only word I hear for it. >>=20 >> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore -=20 >> perhaps for obvious reasons. >>=20 > > I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:35:14 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:35:14 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 7:26:42 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, > and less common on campus. > Well, then, wouldn't the taboo work against the retention of coke as a generic for soft drsinks? I agree that coke the drug is more expensive, and it is certainly more dangerous than pot, but it is pretty common in the USA (what does campus have to do with it?), and it is somewhat glamorized among some young people precisely because it is so dangerous. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:42:50 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:42:50 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20A=20little=20more=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on=20y'all=20redux?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 6:03:37 PM, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > > The development of plural 2nd person pronouns into singulars (often > conveying politeness or formality originally) is motivated psychologically and/or > socially. We all know about the European examples (English you, French vous, > German sie, even Spanish Usted comes from vuestra (2nd person plural possessive) > + merced "grace" - I hope I'm remembering this right).  I believe this is > common elsewhere in the world as well. And in the French and German cases the > polite/formal singular forms retain their plural meanings, so the suggestion > that the transparent plurality of one form might prevent it from developing > into a singular isn't persuasive. > > The development from plural to deferential singular makes sense b/c the > plural is less threateningly direct (e.g. "I wasn't talking about just you, I was > talking about all yall"). So in talking to a social superior you could use > the plural as a more indirect form of address. Eventually the semantic > component of plurality is seen as optional and the form comes to mean "polite" > singular and maybe eventually just singular. I'm sure others on the list can > explain this more eloquently. My point is that,  based on cross-linguistic > evidence, we might expect that yall would develop into a (polite) singular > eventually. Whether or not it actually has done this is a different issue. > Good points, Matt. I'd only respond that (a). the sociocultural situation that brought about the loss of THOU (etc.) was quite different from that of 20th Century America; (b) there seems to be little evidence that Y'ALL is replacing YOU (or even that it is used with any frequency at all, despite the fact that the assertions that singular Y'ALL is "possible" have been going on for generations; and (c) the contrast between "you" and "y'all" is firmly implicit in the thought experiment presented in the second paragraph. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:44:19 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:44:19 EST Subject: the meaning of GENERIC in linguistics Message-ID: Larry Horn's comments (reproduced below) were for me thought-provoking , aND I need to think about them some more. (Thanks, Larry, for the summary of aspects of the Horn-Kleinedler LSA paper, which I think you were indeed kind enough to send me some time in the past.) However, I hope Larry will give me some clarification of just how he is using the term GENERIC in linguistics for words where trademarks are not involved, because he seems to be using the term GENERIC in a way unusual to either linguistics or the law. With respect to trademark law, the term "generic" relates to features of individual words--trademarks are as special kind of proper noun. This is the sense in which it is usually used in lexicography, to my knowlege. In linguistics, to my knowledge, "generic" is a syntactic property of nouns rather than an inherent feature of individual words. That is to say, "man" and "guy" are intrinsically neither generic nor nongeneric; rather, they are construed as "generic" or "nongeneric" in particular linguistic contexts. This is the definition that I find in all introdcutory linguistics textbooks and dictionaries of linguistics, which usually gok on to give such stock examples as the following: GENERIC: Man is an animal that nurses its young. GENERIC: A man should always open a door for a lady. NONGENERIC: A man opened a door for a lady. NONGENERIC: The man was an animal who tried to nurse his young. So I totally agree with Larry that the noun MAN "isn't quite the same as 'kleenex' " with respect to genericness; indeed, lexically, MAN is always potentially either generic or nongeneric, and so is GUY, except insofar as MAN or GUY may be a trademark, which is perfectly possible (though I don't know of any myself off the top of my head). Syntactically, MAN is either generic or nongeneric, depending on the syntax. That is to say, there is indeed a major difference between words such as GUY or MAN and words such as KLEENEX: brand names are intrinsically generic proper nouns, and people give them some kind of special status based on that fact. "autohyponymous" is a term that I am not familiar with, so I have some trouble following Larry's argument below (how a word can be hyponymous to itself is not clear to me). I agree, though, that speakers' use of KLEENEX to refer to tissues in general often times "reflects speakers' knowledge of their meaning" as (1) trademarks (proper nouns) and as (2) the thing that the trademark (proper noun) most frequently refers to (i.e, facial tissues)--indeed, I that hass been pretty much central to my argument all along! On the other hand, speakers' use of ZIPPER to refer to a type of fastener "reflects" only on the latter kind of knowledge. Why Larry and Steve would call MAN a "quasi-generic"--and what the difference is for them between "quasi-generic" and "pseudo-generic"--I'd also like to know about. In a message dated 3/3/05 11:54:12 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 9:18 AM -0500 3/3/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage > (i.e., > >taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to > >what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW > about > >the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." > > I take your point, but (without retrotting out the arguments I've > already advanced in this thread) I think you're still underestimating > the possibility that what speakers know is that "kleenex" and similar > words are in fact autohyponymous, in which case their *use* as > generics reflects speakers' *knowledge* of their meaning, as with > "Yankee" and other instances of...can we call them "concentrics"? > > >It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be > solved > >by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at > >least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm > not > >sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not > >theirs. > > In fact I've used these labels for a somewhat different case, that of > *man*, in which (as others have argued before me) speakers don't in > fact behave as though there is a true gender-neutral meaning, but at > the same time there is a sense that isn't strictly male-referential. > (In the paper Steve Kleinedler and I presented on this at the LSA a > few years ago, we invoked Roschian prototypes to provide the > appropriate model for what we called "QG [quasi-generic] _man_".) > I'd argue that this isn't quite the same as "kleenex", which really > does mean 'facial tissue'.  Our paper was a response to an > influential paper by the philosopher Janice Moulton, who claimed that > the notion of "parasitic reference", as defined by genericization of > "kleenex" for 'tissue', "clorox" for 'bleach', etc., should be > extended to the case of "man", and we pointed out various differences > between the two cases leading us to reject this identification, > including the obvious historical one ("kleenex" involved broadening, > "man" involved narrowing).  At the same time we suggested that her > analysis would be directly applicable to the history and current > status of "guy(s)".  There too, as with "kleenex" or "clorox" or > "xerox", we do (I'd argue) need to invoke autohyponymy, not just > careless uses, especially for those speakers who can have an > individual woman in mind in referring to "the other guy", "the next > guy", "just one guy", etc., but arguably also for those (possibly now > a majority) who can refer to mixed-sex or all female groups as > "(those) guys".   I'd vote to reserve "quasi-generic" for those cases > where no true generic sense is involved, as with (according to me) > "man", as opposed to those where a generic and a specific sense exist > side-by-side, as with (according to me) "kleenex" or "guy(s)".  YMMV, > of course. > > Larry > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 05:57:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:57:35 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:44:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a >traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. Often a redheaded or >cross-eyed or left-handed person was regarded as being a jinx ... along the >lines of a black cat. [...] >And consider this variant: > >---------- > >_Reno Evening Gazette_, Reno NV, 28 April 1943: p. 2: > ><ship American," and said that never again must "we allow our merchant >marine to become the nation's cross-eyed stepchild.">> ----- _Chicago Tribune_, Nov 16, 1919, p. 1/7 An advertisement which may be considered a classic appears today in the classified section of The Tribune. It reads: "I own a frame building with two flats and two stores, all vacant except one store. Can find no one to give it better attention than is commonly given by a woman's second husband to her cross-eyed stepchild by the first wife of her first husband. Property is at 5749-51 Wentworth avenue; is all clear and needs many repairs. Make me an offer." ----- (A classic indeed.) --Ben Zimmer From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sat Mar 5 16:00:41 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:00:41 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303172344.78938.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my home, have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. sally donlon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:09:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:09:41 -0800 Subject: "odds against" = "odds of" Message-ID: Here's another reversal, one which I believe I've heard before on TV news. In _Teach Yourself the Second World War_ (London: Hodder Arnold, 2004), p. 22, historian Alan Farmer writes of the German invasion of 1939: "The odds against Poland's survival were slim." JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:17:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:17:57 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: To "frail" is a Southeastern term for "beat." It has come to be applied particularly to the very old-time (and likely original) style of playing the five-string banjo by beating on the strings with the nails of the right hand rather than plucking them with the fingers. This latter sense is overlooked by OED - maybe I mentioned this once before. I don't have DARE handy, but OED takes "frail" back to 1851. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does "frail" mean in this context? There's also "beat like a rented mule." It appears to say that one would act more viciously toward a rented mule than toward one's own mule. But wouldn't damaging someone else's property cause more trouble than damaging one's own property? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a > red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. > > JL > > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor > about = > the South. =20 > > Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = > treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of > = > in history? > > samclem > Doing research on a Straightdope subject > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 5 16:28:04 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:28:04 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050304231055.02fe8540@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >samclem: >> I can understand that a stepchild might be >>treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in >>history? > Doug Wilson: >Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a >traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. ~~~~~~~~~ Given that the genetics of hair color is complicated and generally ill-understood, the fact that red-headedness can pop up unexpectedly in families where other coloring predominates could occasion suspicion about parentage. This alone might account for traditional prejudice against red-headedness that seems to occur in many societies. A. Murie From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:27:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:27:50 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: "Campus" is relevant because my point was that "dope" = Coke seems to be on the way out. In other words, not so much used by young people. "Dope" (marijuana or drugs in general) is more likely to be "discordant" than "coke" because confusion is theoretically possible in non-count utterances like "I'm gonna get _some_ dope" than in count-noun situations like "I'm gonna get _a_ coke." "Dope" = Coke is also a count-noun, but the non-count situations may be enough to help tip the balance against it. Of course, if Bethany is right that "dope" =Coke is still going strong, the whole question is moot. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20aryland? = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 7:26:42 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, > and less common on campus. > Well, then, wouldn't the taboo work against the retention of coke as a generic for soft drsinks? I agree that coke the drug is more expensive, and it is certainly more dangerous than pot, but it is pretty common in the USA (what does campus have to do with it?), and it is somewhat glamorized among some young people precisely because it is so dangerous. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Mar 5 16:00:39 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:00:39 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <0ea4f3dcec860f0e85c49c6f6aeba7c9@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: And I've just recently learned that in the Pacific Northwest, kids have "Ash Days" when volcanoes blow (Mt. St. Helen's in particular). At 10:00 AM 3/5/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my home, >have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. > >sally donlon From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 19:55:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:55:56 EST Subject: catharctic Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:03:56 -0800, Jonathan Lighter writes: > Prominent defense attorney Mickey Sherman said tonight on Court TV's " > Catherine Crier Live" that he hoped Martha Stewart's stay in the big house > was "a catharctic experience." MWCD10 page 181 "catharsis" means "2b a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension 3 elimination of a complex by bringing it to consciousness and affording it expression" Either of these two meanings would fit what Sherman said without assuming he made a scatalogical joke. However I prefer "Cathar" meaning "various ascetic and dualistic Christian sects esp. of the later Middle Ages teaching that matter is evil..." Or are you commenting that Sherman made a portmanteau of "carhartic" and "Arctic"? - Jim Landau From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Sat Mar 5 20:03:11 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: Classic? [WAS Re: red-headed stepchild] In-Reply-To: <20050305055739.E65D7F1EBB@spf6-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: The cited quotation piques my curiosity. How old is the vernacular use of "classic" to indicate something particularly amusing? Erik On Mar 5, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > _Chicago Tribune_, Nov 16, 1919, p. 1/7 > > An advertisement which may be considered a classic appears today in the > classified section of The Tribune. It reads: > "I own a frame building with two flats and two stores, all vacant > except > one store. Can find no one to give it better attention than is commonly > given by a woman's second husband to her cross-eyed stepchild by the > first > wife of her first husband. Property is at 5749-51 Wentworth avenue; is > all > clear and needs many repairs. Make me an offer." > ----- > > (A classic indeed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 20:22:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:22:31 -0500 Subject: the meaning of GENERIC in linguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:44 AM -0500 3/5/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Larry Horn's comments (reproduced below) were for me thought-provoking , aND >I need to think about them some more. (Thanks, Larry, for the summary of >aspects of the Horn-Kleinedler LSA paper, which I think you were >indeed kind enough >to send me some time in the past.) However, I hope Larry will give me some >clarification of just how he is using the term GENERIC in >linguistics for words >where trademarks are not involved, because he seems to be using the term >GENERIC in a way unusual to either linguistics or the law. > >With respect to trademark law, the term "generic" relates to features of >individual words--trademarks are as special kind of proper noun. >This is the sense >in which it is usually used in lexicography, to my knowlege. In linguistics, >to my knowledge, "generic" is a syntactic property of nouns rather than an >inherent feature of individual words. That is to say, "man" and "guy" are >intrinsically neither generic nor nongeneric; rather, they are >construed as "generic" >or "nongeneric" in particular linguistic contexts. This is the definition >that I find in all introdcutory linguistics textbooks and dictionaries of >linguistics, which usually gok on to give such stock examples as the >following: > >GENERIC: Man is an animal that nurses its young. >GENERIC: A man should always open a door for a lady. >NONGENERIC: A man opened a door for a lady. >NONGENERIC: The man was an animal who tried to nurse his young. > >So I totally agree with Larry that the noun MAN "isn't quite the same as >'kleenex' " with respect to genericness; indeed, lexically, MAN is always >potentially either generic or nongeneric, and so is GUY, except >insofar as MAN or GUY >may be a trademark, which is perfectly possible (though I don't know of any >myself off the top of my head). Syntactically, MAN is either generic or >nongeneric, depending on the syntax. That is to say, there is indeed a major >difference between words such as GUY or MAN and words such as >KLEENEX: brand names are >intrinsically generic proper nouns, and people give them some kind of special >status based on that fact. Having decided I've over-posted on this thread, I determined to go cold turkey and don't want to open up any new cans of worms. And I fear I can't close this one that easily; there are a number of issues you bring up above that I'll have to defer any response to. But a brief point of clarification on the issue below: >"autohyponymous" is a term that I am not familiar with, so I have some >trouble following Larry's argument below (how a word can be >hyponymous to itself is >not clear to me). "autohyponymy" is a term I've been using since 1984 for the situation arising in precisely the kinds of cases I brought up in connection with that word ("Yankee", "dog", "Frau", "guys", "cow", etc.), in which a lexical item--typically through either semantic broadening or narrowing--has two (or more) senses, one of which includes another. Hyponymy is the relation "collie" or "bitch" bears to "dog" (identifiable with unilateral entailment--all collies/bitches are dogs but not vice versa. But if a bitch is a female dog, its counterpart for a male dog ('a male animal of the family Canidae', in the AHD4's terms) is "dog". Thus "dog" [AHD4's sense #3] is a hyponym of "dog" [AHD4's sense #1], hence an autohyponym. Similarly, the 'Anglo/WASP New Englander' is a hyponym of the 'New Englander' "Yankee", which is a hyponym of the 'northerner' "Yankee", which is a hyponym of the 'U.S. inhabitant' "Yankee"--concentric layers of autohyponymy. This term is more transparent than "genericide", I'd argue--but I promise I won't here. But I'm willing to grant it's not totally transparent, since we're really talking about one sense of a word being a hyponym of another sense of the same word, not literally a word or sense that's hyponymous to itself. > I agree, though, that speakers' use of KLEENEX to refer to >tissues in general often times "reflects speakers' knowledge of their >meaning" as (1) trademarks (proper nouns) and as (2) the thing that >the trademark >(proper noun) most frequently refers to (i.e, facial tissues)--indeed, I that >hass been pretty much central to my argument all along! On the other hand, >speakers' use of ZIPPER to refer to a type of fastener "reflects" >only on the latter >kind of knowledge. > >Why Larry and Steve would call MAN a "quasi-generic"--and what the difference >is for them between "quasi-generic" and "pseudo-generic"--I'd also like to >know about. > > The relevant notion of generic in this case is not the grammatical one (which distinguishes the bare singulars allowed with "woman" and "man"--as in "Man is the only animal that rapes" on either the (putative) generic-human or generic-male-adult-human sense--from the impossible bare singulars with other count nouns barring this use (*Dog is a mammal, *Boy tends to be taller than girl, *Guy drinks beer). Rather, it's the one that comes up in discussions of "he/man" language, in which "generic" seems too ensconced to uproot in the sense of 'sex-neutral'. The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the type Ron alludes to. I will (reluctantly) elaborate if asked, but maybe this is enough for now. Larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Mar 5 21:09:52 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:09:52 -0500 Subject: English neologisms from Italian Message-ID: A friend and colleague CUNY is renewing research in new words in English from Italian. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. Thanks, David barnhart at highlands.com From Larry at SCROGGS.COM Sat Mar 5 21:28:21 2005 From: Larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:28:21 -0700 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: My grandparents, north Georgia 1881-1967, always called Coca-Cola "dope". I was told Coke got that name because the orginal formula contained an extract from the coca bean. I haven't heard anyone call it "dope" for many years. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com Jonathan Lightner wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:56:31 -0800 From: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: COKE in the Maryland "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sat Mar 5 23:03:19 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:03:19 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: hi y'all this thread got me to rememberin' livin' on St. Croix USVI mid 70's i loved this very private special info crucian folks talkin bout "inside baby" - in the marriage "outside baby" - not in the marriage - but could be between same family members "backyard baby" - friend from the neighborhood "bush baby" - somting happen during carnival, jump up, rape, fiasco, too drunk to rememba shhhhhh dis a secret kinda thang karen inside baby Creole Talk Mailing List http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/Home_Linguistics.html Domino (c) 1990 KSE West Indian Proverbs found in Domino "Little ax cut down big tree" A woman may be small but accomplish big things. "Man Dead, Man Dey" Life will go on in spite of death and if a woman loses her man, there is always another to take his place. Sometimes it feels like: "Ah Buddy, me a jig but no motion" Wok'n like hell but not gettin' anywhere. "Proverbs - an ancient resource, the original sound byte. These morsels of wisdom that make up the Oral Tradition which have successfully passed down knowledge to future generations worked great! before the complications of curriculum interfered with people's ability to internalize snippets of useful and necessary info. " "Now, they educate the knowlege right outta ya." KSE 1998 "Be who you are and say what you feel because the people who mind don't matter and the people who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss "The illiterate of the year 2000 will not be the individual who cannot read and write, but the one who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn." Alvin Toffler <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> /// Karen Ellis /// Educational CyberPlayGround __ /// GUAVABERRY BOOKS - DOMINO \\\/// Traditional Children's Songs Games, Chants from U.S.V.I \X/ 7 Hot Site Awards from New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, \/ Earthlink USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 23:38:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) Message-ID: I agree with Larry that maybe it is time to stop this thread for now (or take it private), so I will add only two quick comments myself. 1. I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, "autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). 2. I thank Larry for reminding me that the term GENERIC is also used in morphology to refer to nouns and pronouns that are putatively sex-neutral. I agree with him that "The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the type Ron alludes to." The operative word here is, as I see it, "perniciously." Indeed, so far as I can see, the only thing of importance that these three quite different phenomena have in common is the label GENERIC. The relationship between "Kleenex" and putative "kleenex" does not seem to me to be illuminated in the slightest by confusing the issue with either of the other two uses of "GENERIC." 3. I would be interested in helping to organize a panel on the various issues surrounding the various uses of GENERIC at some conference in the future--perhaps, say, Law and Society in 2006, or, if it is not too late, ANS in 2006 (meeting with LSA/ADS). If anyone is interested in this, let me know. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Mar 6 00:01:24 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:01:24 -0500 Subject: lanai Message-ID: I was in SW Florida last week where my wife had a workshop on Marco Is; on a rainy day we looked at open houses in new developments in Estero (bet. Ft Meyers and Naples) and was struck by the new-to-me-term "lanai" for an enclosed screened in porch which many of the houses had. Ultimate origin is the name of a Hawaiian island--DARE has "A roofed structure with open sides built near or onto a house; a porch, veranda, or patio." It also notes that it was introduced in Sun City FL by 1982 and unknown in cities that surround it. It obviously has spread since a google search reveals a Mississippi house with one. I would suppose only new houses in the more tropical parts of the country would sport lanais. ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 00:41:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:41:02 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <89.22262180.2f5b9cf7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:38 PM -0500 3/5/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I agree with Larry that maybe it is time to stop this thread for now (or take >it private), so I will add only two quick comments myself. > >1. I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >original." ...which doesn't quite work, since half (or so) of the cases involve those in which the new sense is the superordinate and the older one is the hyponym, as with "guy(s)", "Roman" [for inhabitants of the empire rather than the city], and the full range of antonomasia/genericide examples we've been rehashing. But I do like the query from google about whether I meant to search "autohypnose", which I guess involves hypnotizing yourself in French. Close enough. > I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at least two >other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a useful term to >me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it from now on >whenever I >am in need of such a word, even though this use of strikes me as >somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, "autoerotic" or >"automobile" (just >a matter of taste, of course). Yeah, it's a challenge to come up with a plausible scenario for autohyponymic asphyxiation. > >2. I thank Larry for reminding me that the term GENERIC is also used in >morphology to refer to nouns and pronouns that are putatively >sex-neutral. I agree >with him that "The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps >perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular >illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the >type Ron alludes >to." The operative word here is, as I see it, "perniciously." >Indeed, so far as >I can see, the only thing of importance that these three quite different >phenomena have in common is the label GENERIC. The relationship >between "Kleenex" >and putative "kleenex" does not seem to me to be illuminated in the slightest >by confusing the issue with either of the other two uses of "GENERIC." I think it would be relatively straightforward to refer to the first of these as "sex-neutral(ity)", but I'm not sure we can avoid using the now very well-established "generic" for the other two. Maybe we could use "bare singular (count noun)" (BSCN?) for the "man" and "woman" cases. Semantic genericity itself is a many-splendored thing, though, including the varieties of NPs involved (the similarities and differences among bare plurals (Cats are carnivores), indefinite singulars (A cat is a carnivore), and definite singulars (The cat is a carnivore) and the role of "characterizing" sentences. The best treatment I know of is still that in the now 10-year-old _The Generic Book_ (Carlson & Pelletier, eds.), which has a plain white cover with block black and red stenciled letters, making the product look very much like it was pulled from the Generic aisle of the supermarket. More recently, Ariel Cohen has had a lot of useful things to say about generics. The law literature I don't really know. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 00:43:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:43:28 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) Message-ID: I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. I'm sure Jon Lighter has something on this. I was looking through Hoosier Folklore today. Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 78: QUERIES By FRANCES J. BAUGHMAN (...) THe other query is about a cadence count used by high school students for keeping step when a group walked together. The part I remember went like this: Left, left, I left my wife and forty-nine kids. That's right, right... Does anyone remember all of this particular cadence count or other forms of cadence counts? Bloomington, Indiana Hoosier Folklore, September, 1947, vol. VI, no. 3, pg. 109: CADENCE COUNTS There have been several replies to a query by Frances J. Baughman about cadence counts (see _HF_ 6:78). THese replies indicate that the counts are widespread and varied. Illinois Left-- Left-- Left my wife in Starving condition and Nothing but johnnycakes Left-- Left... >From Eva H. McIntosh, Carbondale, Illinois. Minnesota Left! Right! Left--Left-- I left my wife And seventeen children In starving condition WIth nothing but Johnnycake left. Was I right-- Was I right when I left? I left my wife, etc, _da capo_, _ad inf._ >From Leslie Dae Lindau, COlordao State College of Education, Greeley, Colorado, who heard it about thirty years ago. Indiana 1. Miss Caroline Dunn learned this one in a Girl Scout troop about the time of World War I. Left, Left Left a wife and forty-six children. Don't you think that I had a Right, right? 2. This one Miss Dunn learned from Sue WHite, who remembers it from high school days, four or five years ago. Left, Left I left my wife and twenty-one kids Back home in bed in a starving condition Without any gingerbread Left, left. (Pg. 110--ed.) First I hired her Then I fired her THen, by golly She left Left, left... 3. About this one Miss Dunn remarks: "We liked this one for keeping step and regarded it as a little wild because of the 'swear words' in it." Keep step, keep step, Keep step, gosh darn it, keep step. You've got it, now keep it, Don't lose it, doggone it, Keep step, doggone it, keep step. >From Miss Caroline Dunn, WIlliam Henry Smith Memorial Library, Indianapolis, Indiana. 4. Paul G. Brewster says he remembers using thjis one during the first World War. The "hayfoot, strawfoot," he adds, comes from Civil War days when green country recruits often did not know their right feet from their left. The drill sergeants had them tie hay to their left feet and straw on their right feet. Hayfoot, strawfoot Belly full of bean soup Left-- Left-- Left my wife And fourteen children. Did I do right-- Right-- Right when I left? >From Paul G. Brewster, Bloomington, Indiana. Hoosier FOlklore, June 1948, Vol. VII, no. 2, pg. 54: CADENCE COUNT By EVA H. McINTOSH The following was obtained from a friend in Equality, Illinois. Left-- Left-- Left my wife and Fifty-nine kids in the Middle of the kitchen in a Starving condition with Nothing but gingerbread Left-- Did I do right, --right by me Country but wrong by my Family. By gosh I Had a good job but I Left-- Left-- (repeat) (For other forms of cadence Counts see _HF_ 6:109-110.--The Editor.) Carbondale, Illinois Pg. 57: MORE CADENCE COUNTS By GRACE PARTRIDGE SMITH AND JANE MILLER Since the publication of several cadence counts in _HF_ 6:109-10, September, 1947, two more variants have been submitted, from Indiana and Iowa. _Iowa_ Contributed by Grace Partridge Smith who says, "My daughter, Ilse SMith Addicks, of Washington, D. C., remembers the following count from her school days in Iowa City, Iowa. SHe dates it from about 1912-1914 when she was in the grades. COming home from school four and five girls would link arms, stomp along the sidewalk, singing the cadence as indicated." Left, left-- I had to be home When I left!-- I left my wife And seventeen children All in a starving condition WIth nothing but brown--bread-- Left, left-- I had to be home When I left!-- _Indiana_ Contributed by Jane Miller, Kokomo, Indiana, w2ho learned the following count near West Middleton, in Howard COunty. Left, left-- Left my wife and forty-five kids The old gray mare and the peanut stand. Did I do Right? Right! Right from the country Where I came from. Haystack, Strawstack! Skip by jingo. Left, left-- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 00:55:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:55:18 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) Message-ID: I forgot to add this...There are a lot of variation to search for this one. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Julie Stampnitzky Mar 30 2000, 12:00 am show options Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom From: Julie Stampnitzky Date: 2000/03/30 Subject: Re: The hole in the Virgin Mary's roof (was Re: Tea) On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Beth Friedman wrote: > Left, left, left right left > I left my wife and 48 children > Alone in the kitchen in starving condition > With nothing but gingerbread > Left, left, left right left. The versions I learned as a kid had a slightly different rhythm. Left, left, left my wife and 40 kids Right, right, right in the middle of the kitchen floor. and Left, left, left my wife and 40 kids I thought it was right, right... -- Julie Stampnitzky http://www.yucs.org/~jules Rehovot, Israel http://neskaya.darkover.cx (GOOGLE) http://dragon.sleepdeprived.ca/songbook/songs4/S4_29.htm I Left My... There appears to be a number of different versions of this song. Here is the one I know: Left, left, left right left I left my wife in Argentina With 52 kids and a laughing hyena I thought I was right, right, Right in my country and whoop-de-doo! Left, left! I left my wife... Your left foot comes down on each "left" in the march. At the "whoop-de-do!" you do this little jig so that your left foot will come down on the "left" in the next line. Here are a couple of other versions: I had a good home and I left I had a good home and I left I left on my own and it served me right, Left, right left right. (Courtesy of Eileen Kermode, posted to the WAGGGS-L Mailing List) I left my wife and foty-eight kids On the verge of starvation with only one hamburger Left, left to the left, right, left. (Courtesy of Beth Fausnaugh, posted to the WAGGGS-L Mailing List) Thanks very much to an anonymous Guide from the Jersey Channel Islands, who sent me this version! I left, left, I left my wife in New Orleans With thirty-five kids and a bucket of beans I thought it was right, right, Right for my country whoop-ee-doo! Left, left, I left... (courtesy of Kathi Livas) Left, left, Left my wife and forty-eight kids on the edge of starvation without any gingerbread. Did I do right, right? Right to my country but not to my flag. Skip by jingo (do shuffle/skip step to end up on left foot) Left, left... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 00:57:00 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:57:00 -0500 Subject: Crosspost from LL, Disc: New: Isoglosses and the Midland Message-ID: As always, responses should go to the poster, Mr. Kun, as well as to the list. Larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-655. Sat Mar 05 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.655, Disc: New: Isoglosses and the Midland Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:39:04 From: Tom Kun < tomkun83 at hotmail.com > Subject: Isoglosses and the Midland I have two questions, pertaining to an article I just read which was apparently written by Charles-James Bailey (http://www.orlapubs.com/AL/L31.html). My first question would be, why is the concept of isoglosses still used if it's so inaccurate? And second, is there any kind of consensus of the concept of a Midland in the US? Kurath defined a ''North Midland'' (north of the Ohio River) and a ''South Midland'' (Appalachians). Carver labeled those regions ''Lower North'' and ''Upper South.'' The forthcoming Atlas of North American English (Labov, Boberg, Ash) limits the Midland to the North Midland and makes the South Midland part of the South (I think that's the best definition, considering the Northern and Southern vowel shifts). Bailey calls the Midland ''mythology'' and ''one of the worst flights of fancy in linguistics.'' Linguistic Field(s): Sociolinguistics ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-655 --- end forwarded text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 01:25:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:25:04 -0500 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: _AN ENDLESS TALE_ I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger generations. "That's tough!" "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." "Where d'you get it?" "Drugstore." "What's it cost?" "A dime." "shucks, I only got a nickel." "That's tough. "What's tough?" (etc.) Indiana University Ernest Baughman (GOOGLE) DO YOU KNOW LYRICS ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh what's life? A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages Washingtonpost.com: Live Online ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How much does it cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - Supplemental Result - Similar pages Cauldron ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life Person one: A magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person two: How ... epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages yourDictionary.com • Agora Discussion Board ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: Life, What's Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet come up with an answer. It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer asks What's tough?? The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A magazine.? Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? —Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best bet. Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety — popular and memorable songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is full.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where the Sidewalk Begins Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 01:37:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:37:31 -0800 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ (1947): "You remind me of a man." "What man?" "The man with the Power!" "What power?" "Hoodoo." "Hoodoo?" "You do!" "Do what?" "Remind me of a man." "What man?" Repeat till dead. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: _AN ENDLESS TALE_ I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger generations. "That's tough!" "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." "Where d'you get it?" "Drugstore." "What's it cost?" "A dime." "shucks, I only got a nickel." "That's tough. "What's tough?" (etc.) Indiana University Ernest Baughman (GOOGLE) DO YOU KNOW LYRICS ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh what's life? A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages Washingtonpost.com: Live Online ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How much does it cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - Supplemental Result - Similar pages Cauldron ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life Person one: A magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person two: How ... epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages yourDictionary.com • Agora Discussion Board ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: Life, What's Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet come up with an answer. It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer asks What's tough?? The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A magazine.? Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? —Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best bet. Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety — popular and memorable songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is full.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where the Sidewalk Begins Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 03:03:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:03:51 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do parking tickets!--Barry Popik) -------------------------------------------------------------- Some stuff from two magazines. Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go swimming." Pg. 249: Adam and Eve and Pinch-me Went down to the river to bathe; Adam and Eve were drownded; Who was saved? Pg. 254: Here's the church And there's the steeple; Open it up And see the people. Pg. 255: I recall three of these: Engine, engine, number nine, Running on Chicago time. Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, How many monkeys have we here? Nigger, nigger, never die, Black face and shiny eye. Pg. 256: Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. Pg. 257: What goes up must come down Either on heads or on the ground. Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, Mary soon had a pain in the belly. Innocuous ditties: I know something, I won't tell: Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be 1951--ed.) Johnny get your gun And sword and pistol; Johnny get your gun And fifteen cents. Pg. 259: Corn-planting chant: One for the blackbird, Two for the crow Three for the cutworm, And four to grow. (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) Pg. 260: Miscellaneous: Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, Never worked [washed] and never will. Sold agin and got the tin And a little box to put it in. Good Night! Sleep tight! Don't let the bedbugs bite. If you getto Heaven before I do, Tell them that I'm comin' too. A peach-tree in the orchard grew, 'Tis true! Oh! listen to my tale of woe. When I was single, My pockets did jingle, And I wish I was single again. Oh! how the boarders yell, Oh! how the beans do smell, Oh how the boarders yell-- Three times a day. I've been working on the levee All the whole long day; I'v been workin' on the levee Just to pass the time away. Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: Cin, Cinn, A needle and a pin, A skinny and a fatty; And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. Contributed by Paul Weer: A bottle and a cork, A jug and a fork, And that's the way to spell New York. Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: 9. _Lemonade_ Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second team to select something to demonstrate. Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) Pg. 14: 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, All in free. (Ind.) Pg. 19: F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) G. _Simple Simon_ All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a forfeit. (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) Reference: Gomme, II, 383. Pg. 21: Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? Pg. 22: Do this way, and this way and that? Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is doing. (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) _Lemonade_ A. Here we come. B. Where from? A. New York. B. WHat's your trade? A. Lemonade. B. Get to work. Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last line may be replaced by: 1. How's it made? (Ind.) 2. Give us some. (Ill.) 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) Two versions differ markedly from the rest: 1. A. Pennsylvania, Bum, bum, bum. Here I come. B. What's your trade? Pg. 23: A. Lemonade. B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) 2. A. What's your state? B. New York. A. What's your trade? B. Lemonade. (Ind.) References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. Pg. 31: Here's the church And here's the steeple. Open the doors, And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the figures. References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 03:18:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:18:22 -0500 Subject: lanai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It depends on what you consider "new." A friend built a lanai onto the patio of my mother's house in Sacramento, CA, in 1970. The person who built the lanai was a native of Hawaii. He and my mother use the word with such ease, correcting me every time that I tried to refer to the lanai as a "sunporch," that I got the impression that the fact that *I* had never heard this word before was sheer coincidence. This particular lanai is, as described below, an enclosed, screened-in, roofed porch built, in this case, around and over a patio. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 7:01 PM, David Bergdahl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Bergdahl > Subject: lanai > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I was in SW Florida last week where my wife had a workshop on Marco > Is; on a > rainy day we looked at open houses in new developments in Estero (bet. > Ft > Meyers and Naples) and was struck by the new-to-me-term "lanai" for an > enclosed screened in porch which many of the houses had. Ultimate > origin is > the name of a Hawaiian island--DARE has "A roofed structure with open > sides > built near or onto a house; a porch, veranda, or patio." It also notes > that > it was introduced in Sun City FL by 1982 and unknown in cities that > surround > it. It obviously has spread since a google search reveals a > Mississippi > house with one. I would suppose only new houses in the more tropical > parts > of the country would sport lanais. > ________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 6 03:25:59 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:25:59 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) In-Reply-To: <036F49CD.2F740433.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: The version I learned was: Left, left, Left my wife & forty-eight kids To starve to death On nothing but gingerbread. Left, left (repeat.....) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 03:30:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:30:21 -0500 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was also used in a Hitchcock movie starring Cary Grant. The name and the date escape me, but the date is definitely post-1947. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." > (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ > (1947): > > "You remind me of a man." > "What man?" > "The man with the Power!" > "What power?" > "Hoodoo." > "Hoodoo?" > "You do!" > "Do what?" > "Remind me of a man." > "What man?" > > Repeat till dead. > > JL > > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest > Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: > > _AN ENDLESS TALE_ > > I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going > through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina > (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he > get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger > generations. > > "That's tough!" > "What's tough?" > "Life." > "What's life?" > "A magazine." > "Where d'you get it?" > "Drugstore." > "What's it cost?" > "A dime." > "shucks, I only got a nickel." > "That's tough. > "What's tough?" (etc.) > > Indiana University Ernest Baughman > > > (GOOGLE) > DO YOU KNOW LYRICS > ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh > what's life? > A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... > www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages > > Washingtonpost.com: Live Online > ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How > much does it > cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... > discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - > Supplemental Result - Similar pages > > Cauldron > ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life > Person one: A > magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person > two: How ... > epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& > REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - > Cached - Similar pages > > yourDictionary.com • Agora Discussion Board > ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: > Life, What's > Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... > www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ > agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - > Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm > FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 > DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet > come up with an answer. > > It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or > early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. > > In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer > asks What's tough?? > > The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A > magazine.? > > Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find > nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? > —Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio > > DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the > information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for > Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). > > Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to > your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists > CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). > > Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to > find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best > bet. > > Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. > 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety — popular and memorable > songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio > ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do > get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is > full.. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Where the Sidewalk Begins > Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, > D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): > "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did > you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. > THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." > > 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be > true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. > By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): > In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the > title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or > cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. > It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A > magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I > only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 03:34:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:34:27 -0800 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Cary Grant and Shirley Temple were the peach of a pair in _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was also used in a Hitchcock movie starring Cary Grant. The name and the date escape me, but the date is definitely post-1947. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." > (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ > (1947): > > "You remind me of a man." > "What man?" > "The man with the Power!" > "What power?" > "Hoodoo." > "Hoodoo?" > "You do!" > "Do what?" > "Remind me of a man." > "What man?" > > Repeat till dead. > > JL > > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest > Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: > > _AN ENDLESS TALE_ > > I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going > through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina > (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he > get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger > generations. > > "That's tough!" > "What's tough?" > "Life." > "What's life?" > "A magazine." > "Where d'you get it?" > "Drugstore." > "What's it cost?" > "A dime." > "shucks, I only got a nickel." > "That's tough. > "What's tough?" (etc.) > > Indiana University Ernest Baughman > > > (GOOGLE) > DO YOU KNOW LYRICS > ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh > what's life? > A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... > www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages > > Washingtonpost.com: Live Online > ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How > much does it > cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... > discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - > Supplemental Result - Similar pages > > Cauldron > ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life > Person one: A > magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person > two: How ... > epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& > REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - > Cached - Similar pages > > yourDictionary.com • Agora Discussion Board > ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: > Life, What's > Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... > www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ > agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - > Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm > FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 > DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet > come up with an answer. > > It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or > early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. > > In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer > asks What's tough?? > > The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A > magazine.? > > Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find > nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? > —Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio > > DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the > information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for > Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). > > Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to > your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists > CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). > > Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to > find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best > bet. > > Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. > 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety — popular and memorable > songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio > ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do > get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is > full.. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Where the Sidewalk Begins > Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, > D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): > "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did > you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. > THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." > > 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be > true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. > By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): > In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the > title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or > cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. > It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A > magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I > only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 04:27:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest > Folklore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Ben Zimmer writes: > > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." > > > (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do > parking tickets!--Barry Popik) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Some stuff from two magazines. > > > Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: > The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go > swimming." Then "then" must be some unspecified pre-WWII date and not 1951? > > Pg. 249: > Adam and Eve and Pinch-me > Went down to the river to bathe; > Adam and Eve were drownded; > Who was saved? > > Pg. 254: > Here's the church > And there's the steeple; > Open it up > And see the people. > > I recall three of these: > > Engine, engine, number nine This is also the name of an R&B song by Wilson Pickett. I don't like the song, so I've never listened to the words. > , > Running on Chicago time. > > Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, > How many monkeys have we here? > > Nigger, nigger, never die, > Black face and shiny eye. > > Pg. 256: > Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, > Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. > > Pg. 257: > What goes up must come down > Either on heads or on the ground. > Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, > Mary soon had a pain in the belly. > > Innocuous ditties: > > I know something, I won't tell: > Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be > 1951--ed.) > > Johnny get your gun > And sword and pistol; > Johnny get your gun > And fifteen cents. > > Pg. 259: > Corn-planting chant: > > One for the blackbird, > Two for the crow > Three for the cutworm, > And four to grow. > (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies > mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) In St. Louis, I learned a variant of this as a chant to start a footrace: One for the money Two for the show Three to make ready And four to GO! > > Pg. 260: > Miscellaneous: > > Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, > Never worked [washed] and never will. In Texas, we said: Curly-head Bill from the western hill [no other lines] > > Sold agin and got the tin > And a little box to put it in. > > Good Night! Sleep tight! > Don't let the bedbugs bite. > > If you getto Heaven before I do, > Tell them that I'm comin' too. > > A peach-tree in the orchard grew, > 'Tis true! > Oh! listen to my tale of woe. > > When I was single, > My pockets did jingle, > And I wish I was single again. > > Oh! how the boarders yell, > Oh! how the beans do smell, > Oh how the boarders yell-- > Three times a day. > > I've been working on the levee > All the whole long day; > I'v been workin' on the levee > Just to pass the time away. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: > Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: > Cin, Cinn, > A needle and a pin, > A skinny and a fatty; > And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. > > Contributed by Paul Weer: > A bottle and a cork, > A jug and a fork, > And that's the way to spell New York. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: > 9. _Lemonade_ > Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each > chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. > Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something > to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" > team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other > team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) > second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The > second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The > second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may > vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to > demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There > may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the > first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the > other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second > team to select something to d! > emonstrate. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: > If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: > > 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) > 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) > Pg. 14: > 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) > 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, > All in free. (Ind.) > > Pg. 19: > F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ > At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, > two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The > formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls > scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap > those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. > (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) In St. Louis, this name of this game is "John Cane Pone" (it sounds like that, in any case) and there was no penalty for losing other than "Gotcha!" > > G. _Simple Simon_ > All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the > statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other > instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a > forfeit. > (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) > Reference: Gomme, II, 383. > > Pg. 21: > Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Pg. 22: > Do this way, and this way and that? > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is > doing. > (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) > > _Lemonade_ > > A. Here we come. > B. Where from? > A. New York. > B. WHat's your trade? > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. > > Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, > two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last > line may be replaced by: > 1. How's it made? (Ind.) > 2. Give us some. (Ill.) > 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) > 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) > The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) > > Two versions differ markedly from the rest: > > 1. A. Pennsylvania, > Bum, bum, bum. > Here I come. > B. What's your trade? > Pg. 23: > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) > 2. A. What's your state? > B. New York. > A. What's your trade? > B. Lemonade. (Ind.) > > References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, > Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX > (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. > > Pg. 31: > Here's the church > And here's the steeple. > Open the doors, > And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) > The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the > figures. This is the version that I learned as a kid in Texas -Wilson Gray > References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 6 06:12:24 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:12:24 -0500 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) In-Reply-To: <89.22262180.2f5b9cf7@aol.com> Message-ID: Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a specialization of the usual early sense "whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". ---------- _Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: p. 2, col. 4: [by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 07:53:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:53:28 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at >least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a >useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it >from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of > strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, >"autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). Those of a structuralist bent would understand what Larry describes in terms of "markedness". An autohyponym is the "unmarked" of two items asymmetrically opposed in a markedness relationship. I don't know if Larry's 1984 piece (NELS, "Ambiguity, negation, and the London School of Parsimony"?) relates autohyponymy to markedness, but here's something that does: ------------------- http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B iff everything that falls under B also falls under A. In this case, B is called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and 'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] It is a frequent situation that one expression can serve as its own hyponym (so-called AUTOHYPONYMS). We often find this with names of biological kinds, when gender is a factor. For example, 'dog' is a term for dogs in general, but can also be used for male dogs and is then contrasted with 'bitch'. The noun 'cow' is used for female cattle, but also for cattle in general, whereas 'bull' is used for male cattle only. In structuralist terms, 'dog' and 'cow' are UNMARKED, and 'bitch' and 'bull' are MARKED. The marked or unmarked status sometimes is reflected in morphological complexity; cf. 'lion' as the unmarked expression and 'lioness' as the marked expression. The autohyponym is often the expression that denotes the thing or concept that is considered more typical or more frequent. ------------------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 08:31:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 03:31:00 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:03:51 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4 >Pg. 254: >Here's the church >And there's the steeple; >Open it up >And see the people. [...] >Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1 >Pg. 31: >Here's the church >And here's the steeple. >Open the doors, >And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) >The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the figures. > >References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. This was already "time-honored" in 1907, according to this non-PC account: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 27, 1907, p. 6 A little southern girl was illustrating on her fingers the time honored, "Here's the church and here's the steeple; open the door and you'll see all the people." "Pretty dirty people," said grandma, looking at the soiled hands. "But they are colored people," was the quick reply. ----- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 09:43:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 04:43:10 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 10:40:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 05:40:14 -0500 Subject: Gapers' Block (1961) Message-ID: The digitized Chicago Tribune is now at December 1963. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A $400,000,000 ASSET GOES TO WASTE Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 27, 1961. p. 20 (1 page) He also did not measure the time lost from "gapers' blocks"--delays caused when passing motorists go slowly past the wreckage. HIGHBROWS ARE GETTING THE LOWDOWN; Taking Lessons from Flying Cop HAL FOUST. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 2, 1962. p. 12 (1 page): A group of traffic engineers with assorted college degrees--some of them really highbrows--are monitoring a Chicago policeman in hopes of improving the English they use in their profession. The policeman is Irv Hayden, a high school graduate who broadcasts rush hour guidance to motorists from the W-G-N helicopter. He sharpened his English by issuing orders as an officer in the military police and as a patrolman by giving advice and tickets to motorists and truck drivers before he took to the air. (...) Among the Haydenisms nominated for academic recognition are: "gapers block," backup," "loosening," and "tight pocket." The expressions are descriptive and require no definition. They are familiar to all expressway drivers and all W-G-N listeners during the rush hours, all who commute behind the wheel hoping for Hayden to report traffic ahead as "heavy but steady." From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 10:51:09 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:51:09 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 10:59:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 05:59:57 -0500 Subject: Keep It Simple, Stupid (1960) Message-ID: Project KISS? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WASHINGTON Scrapbook WALTER TROHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 4, 1960. p. 43 (1 page): Rear Adm. Paul D. Stroop, chief of the navy's weapons bureau, has instituted "Project KISS" to increase the reliability and reduce the cost of the military gadgets his organizations produces. "KISS" stands for "Keep it simple, stupid." This Morning ...; This Morning ... With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 8, 1964. p. C1 (2 pages) Pg. C3: When Ara Parseghian was coaching at Northwestern he mystified his assistants by writing his coaching philosophy on the blackboard in four letters, "KISS." Then he explained its meaning: "Keep It Simple, Stupid." From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Mar 6 13:23:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050306105109.53389.qmail@web41523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is an alternative etymology in which "do-rag" is "dew-rag," and "dew" is a euphemism for sweat, the current "do-rag" folk-etymologized from it. Google gives us 24,300 hits for "do rag," and only 3,550 for "dew rag," but if you look to the biker crowd, the decided preference is for "doo rag" - 35,600 hits. (Several of these hits are for an alternative/indie group known as "(Arizona's) Doo Rag.") Just for variationists, however, is this ad: Doo Rags Wholesale We sell a variety of Dew Rags No Minimums, Low Shipping Cost. www.wholesaleforeveryone.com Too bad it ain't got a "do" version too. By the way, the first "doo rag" Google hit shows y'all bikers like Ron, larry, arnold, and Barry how to sew your own. Hope to see you guys in better style the next time. dInIs >Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep >processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba >to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of >material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" >before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? > >I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html >I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on >the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any >other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. > >''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, >''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or >men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . >. but some young African-American men are masters at transforming >the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes >that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, >was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' > >Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by >Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San >Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the >metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school >officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece >of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; >garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. >The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a >scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved >mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a >paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. > > >(JSTOR) >Take Care of Business >Marvin X >The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >1968), pp. 85-92 >Pg. 85: >WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >typical college student. > > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. > > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Mar 6 14:38:52 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:38:52 -0500 Subject: lanai Message-ID: I googled "lanai" and found references for San Diego, Phoenix, Miss., NC ... even NZ!! One site defined it as a "Hawaiian garden porch." What's interesting to me is that there are obviously two centers for spreading use as a term: one from Hawaii and the other from Florida. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Mar 6 14:57:46 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:57:46 +0000 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 6 15:17:49 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:17:49 -0500 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050306005722.03002840@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Hootnanny/ Hootenanny My first encounter with this word was as the tradename of a pantograph marketed as a child's toy, late 30s or early 40s. Can't remember if it was spelled with or without the /e/ or which mfr. produced it. I suppose it was the sense of thingamajig that was being referred to. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~ >Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a >specialization of the usual early sense >"whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". > >---------- > >_Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: >p. 2, col. 4: > >[by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] > ><without hootnannies. A hootnanny is what the soldiers call a cootie.>> > >---------- > >-- Doug Wilson A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:18:57 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:18:57 -0600 Subject: Re. do rag Message-ID: While in undergraduate school, beginning in about 1972, my housemates and I hosted periodic "Do Rag and Cracker" parties. The mass printed invitations claimed the "Center for Cultural Deviance" as host, and encouraged guests to "bring your own do rag and crackers." Most people at the time did not know the first reference, but a few understood the bi-racial implication through association with the second. Baskets filled with bandannas and soda crackers by the front door helped to further the theme. I still occasionally overhear people I've never met -- or can't remember -- reminiscing about this series of about five events. This, of course, was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... sally donlon From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 15:38:50 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:38:50 EST Subject: Dictionaries Online Message-ID: In a message dated 2/8/05 11:53:41 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: >         I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is > probably the best free modern dictionary online.  For a far more comprehensive > (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the Century > Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at > http://www.global-language.com/century/.  Urbandictionary.com is unreliable but can be a useful guide to recent > slang.  I don't use Merriam-Webster's online website, http://www.m-w.com/, > because I have the collegiate dictionary on my desktop.  I'd love to have a > subscription to the online OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first. > > John Baker > > Because M-W and A-H are online, I keep a hard copy of the New Oxford American on MY desk (as did Larry Horn in recommendingof A-H, I should come out and say that I am doubtless a BIT prejudiced towards NOAD because I am on the Editorial Advisory Board, but I also should say that I am proud to be associated with NOAD and that it is a wonderful desktop dictionary). None of these is an unabridged dictionary, however. If you pay M-W, they will give you access to their online "unabridged" dictionary, and I do pay them because it is quite good. But it is nothing like the OAD online. I am fourtunate in that I can get OAD online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OAD online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:50:55 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:50:55 +0100 Subject: Dictionaries Online In-Reply-To: <20050306153857.EC7744873@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Ron recommends OAD online. What's the URL? Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:52:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:52:17 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:23:25 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >There is an alternative etymology in which "do-rag" is "dew-rag," and >"dew" is a euphemism for sweat, the current "do-rag" >folk-etymologized from it. The "dew-rag" spelling also goes back to 1966 on Newspaperarchive... ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio) Oct. 12, 1966, p. 60 [?], col. 1 There is no relationship between a kid with a dew rag on his head throwing flaming bottles of gasoline and the constitutional rights of a race of people. ----- --Ben Zimmer >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" >>before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? >> >>(JSTOR) >>Take Care of Business >>Marvin X >>The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >>1968), pp. 85-92 >>Pg. 85: >>WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >>typical college student. >> >> >>(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >>17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >>Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >>do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 16:03:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:03:09 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <59438.24.225.220.222.1110095608.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 2:53 AM -0500 3/6/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >>I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >>defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >>original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at >>least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a >>useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it >>from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of >> strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, >>"autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). > >Those of a structuralist bent would understand what Larry describes in >terms of "markedness". An autohyponym is the "unmarked" of two items >asymmetrically opposed in a markedness relationship. I don't know if >Larry's 1984 piece (NELS, "Ambiguity, negation, and the London School of >Parsimony"?) relates autohyponymy to markedness, but here's something that >does: > >------------------- >http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf > Interesting convergence. Manfred Krifka, whose course material is posted at the above website, is one of the principal authors in _The Generic Book_, which I was just citing last night in my "final posting" on the genericide debate. Well, yes, I do relate autohyponymy to markedness, but it's a fairly complex relation. Some cases of markedness don't involve autohyponymy, of course--the tall/short, wide/narrow classes of marked/marked adjective pairs, for example. The unmarked term has wider distribution and is less informative in those cases (as with the autohyponym like "finger" vs. its cohyponym "thumb"), but the marked term doesn't really count as a hyponym of the unmarked in those cases. In other cases, as with "drink" ('imbibe') vs. "drink" ('imbibe alcoholically'), we have autohyponymy but no markedness (since there's no marked member of a lexical opposition. Then there are the problems with the concept of markedness itself, the difference between morphological/formal markedness and semantic markedness--happy/sad illustrates the latter but not the former, happy/unhappy illustrates both, and neither involves autohyponymy. And then there are the uses in acquisition, lang. universals, innateness, phonology/phonetics, etc. (Some semanticists, like Krifka's countryman Martin Haspelmath, have gone so far as to junk "markedness" entirely, but I do find it useful, if it's handled with care.) Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:46:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:46:13 -0800 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: "One for the money..." and "Here's [actually, "This is"] the church . . ." were also familiar to me in '50s NYC. "Railroad Bill, Railroad Bill, Never worked and he never will." --from an Alabama folksong, "Railroad Bill." "Johnny get your gun..." So familiar that George M. Cohan quoted it in the verse to "Over There" (1917) : "Johnny get your gun, get your gun, get your gun, / Take it on the run, on the run, on the run...." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest > Folklore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Ben Zimmer writes: > > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." > > > (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do > parking tickets!--Barry Popik) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Some stuff from two magazines. > > > Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: > The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go > swimming." Then "then" must be some unspecified pre-WWII date and not 1951? > > Pg. 249: > Adam and Eve and Pinch-me > Went down to the river to bathe; > Adam and Eve were drownded; > Who was saved? > > Pg. 254: > Here's the church > And there's the steeple; > Open it up > And see the people. > > I recall three of these: > > Engine, engine, number nine This is also the name of an R&B song by Wilson Pickett. I don't like the song, so I've never listened to the words. > , > Running on Chicago time. > > Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, > How many monkeys have we here? > > Nigger, nigger, never die, > Black face and shiny eye. > > Pg. 256: > Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, > Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. > > Pg. 257: > What goes up must come down > Either on heads or on the ground. > Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, > Mary soon had a pain in the belly. > > Innocuous ditties: > > I know something, I won't tell: > Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be > 1951--ed.) > > Johnny get your gun > And sword and pistol; > Johnny get your gun > And fifteen cents. > > Pg. 259: > Corn-planting chant: > > One for the blackbird, > Two for the crow > Three for the cutworm, > And four to grow. > (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies > mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) In St. Louis, I learned a variant of this as a chant to start a footrace: One for the money Two for the show Three to make ready And four to GO! > > Pg. 260: > Miscellaneous: > > Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, > Never worked [washed] and never will. In Texas, we said: Curly-head Bill from the western hill [no other lines] > > Sold agin and got the tin > And a little box to put it in. > > Good Night! Sleep tight! > Don't let the bedbugs bite. > > If you getto Heaven before I do, > Tell them that I'm comin' too. > > A peach-tree in the orchard grew, > 'Tis true! > Oh! listen to my tale of woe. > > When I was single, > My pockets did jingle, > And I wish I was single again. > > Oh! how the boarders yell, > Oh! how the beans do smell, > Oh how the boarders yell-- > Three times a day. > > I've been working on the levee > All the whole long day; > I'v been workin' on the levee > Just to pass the time away. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: > Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: > Cin, Cinn, > A needle and a pin, > A skinny and a fatty; > And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. > > Contributed by Paul Weer: > A bottle and a cork, > A jug and a fork, > And that's the way to spell New York. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: > 9. _Lemonade_ > Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each > chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. > Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something > to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" > team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other > team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) > second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The > second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The > second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may > vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to > demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There > may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the > first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the > other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second > team to select something to d! > emonstrate. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: > If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: > > 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) > 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) > Pg. 14: > 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) > 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, > All in free. (Ind.) > > Pg. 19: > F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ > At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, > two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The > formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls > scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap > those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. > (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) In St. Louis, this name of this game is "John Cane Pone" (it sounds like that, in any case) and there was no penalty for losing other than "Gotcha!" > > G. _Simple Simon_ > All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the > statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other > instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a > forfeit. > (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) > Reference: Gomme, II, 383. > > Pg. 21: > Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Pg. 22: > Do this way, and this way and that? > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is > doing. > (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) > > _Lemonade_ > > A. Here we come. > B. Where from? > A. New York. > B. WHat's your trade? > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. > > Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, > two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last > line may be replaced by: > 1. How's it made? (Ind.) > 2. Give us some. (Ill.) > 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) > 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) > The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) > > Two versions differ markedly from the rest: > > 1. A. Pennsylvania, > Bum, bum, bum. > Here I come. > B. What's your trade? > Pg. 23: > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) > 2. A. What's your state? > B. New York. > A. What's your trade? > B. Lemonade. (Ind.) > > References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, > Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX > (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. > > Pg. 31: > Here's the church > And here's the steeple. > Open the doors, > And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) > The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the > figures. This is the version that I learned as a kid in Texas -Wilson Gray > References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:51:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:51:17 -0800 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) Message-ID: Great quote, Doug, but in my survey of one million AEF sources I never found an ex. of this particular meaning. It's may well be local or ad hoc. Can anybody beat OED's 1917 "cootie" ("coot" would count), or cast light on its sugg. derivation from Malay "kutu"? JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Hootnanny (1918) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a specialization of the usual early sense "whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". ---------- _Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: p. 2, col. 4: [by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] > ---------- -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:54:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:54:56 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: Does Major "trace it back to the 1940's," or just make an assertion ? JL Margaret Lee wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Margaret Lee Subject: Re: Do-Rag (1966) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 6 17:20:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:20:38 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050306105109.53389.qmail@web41523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep >processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to >Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but >a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar item worn on the head ... but maybe I misremember. Usually IIRC the do-rag was ostensibly for hairdo purposes, but if somebody was wearing one on the job or around the house it wouldn't be obvious whether it was for that or for sweat control or what. I think a do-rag was still a do-rag if seen on a white man ca. 1960, but IIRC it wasn't often seen on a white man in my environment. I don't have any definite knowledge about the etymology; "[hair]do" seems likely enough unless there's contradictory evidence. -- Doug Wilson From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 6 18:08:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:08:05 -0800 Subject: GENERICIZE and COMMONIZE Message-ID: there are evident problems with using the technical term (in several fields) "generic" for various distinct, though possibly related, concepts. one of these is the common noun derived historically from a proper name, a process for which we already have a (to my mind) pretty good technical term, namely "commonization". see the OED online entry for the verb "commonize": ----- 3. U.S. To convert (a proper name) into a common noun (verb, adjective, etc.); to derive (a common noun, etc.) from a proper name. Also intr. for pass. 1974 Amer. Speech 1971 XLVI. 122 From its use as a proper place name, the Watergate quickly became a proper name for an improper event. There are signs..that it is commonizing... ‘Equally cynical and deceitful are the corporate Watergates.’ 1979 Amer. Speech 1976 LI. 148 Well-known examples of trade names that have been commonized are aspirin, cellophane,..nylon, thermos, and zipper. 1982 Comments on Etym. XII. V. & VI. 6 Yiddish yente is a female given name as well as a common noun with several pejorative meanings... Only yente (not yentl or yentlin) has been commonized. ----- is there some objection to this terminology in linguistics (as opposed to the law)? linguistic change being what it is, the first step in commonization will be coexistence of the original proper name with its commonized variant -- one type of autohyponymy. this state can endure for some time. or the proper name can fall into disuse, as with "zipper" and its relatives. or the common noun can fall into disuse; do any young british speakers hoover rugs? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 18:27:54 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:27:54 EST Subject: sweatina Message-ID: My memory is that there was an early 20th Century athletes foot remedy called Sweatina (I also believe that it is long forgotten). I was interested to find the following on the internet, where "sweatina" seems to mean 'excessively sweating'. I'm wondering if this is a nonce usage--something that simply indicates the linguistic creativity the lyricist--or if this is a slang term anywhere in the English-speaking world. Posted - 29 Sep 2004 :  2:29:36 PM       ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TLC Song Lyrics Say what say what (uh uh) 2003 Uh It donat get better then this (what) Here I come Here I come Here I come (T - Boz) Here I come A - T - L Iam an Atlanta girl (woo) Iave been born and raised To come and rock ya world I donat wanna hurt nobody (nobody) I just came to move your bodies T - Time to get the place wide up L - Rest well until we all meet up C - Come on and get the speakers boomin' Stop what youare doin' 'Cause weare about to ruin (come on) Chorus: Uh oh uh oh Move to the right now (uh oh uh oh) Move to the left now (uh oh uh oh) Stand real still now (uh oh uh oh) Now break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Move to the right now (uh oh uh oh) Move to the left now (uh oh uh oh) Stand real still now (uh oh uh oh) Now break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down Ohhh dirty Dirty dirty Where the South is I been waitin' on Tim to bring the beat in (uh huh) TLC the club's shakin' Bounce to the ounce Like a lot of baby makin' A - Already sweatin' from the music T - Too many drinks don't abuse it L - Let the folks outside in Come on on (come on) Chorus Yo Missy TLC is forever (yeah) So when you come up in this club here (what) Get your back up off the wall Yo Missy (yeah) Left Eye would want us to break it down Break it Break it down like this (like this, like this) Say what Come on now Bridge: If you're dancin' And you're sweatina (yeah) Drippin' wet from your neck to your chest is (aahh) Cause weare pumpin' We keep it jumpin' (whatad ya say) TLC is bringin' heat you gotta love this (bring the beat now) If you're dancin' And you're sweatina (ahhh girl) Drippin' wet from your neck to your chest is (oohh) Cause weare pumpin' We keep it jumpin' (ahh) TLC is bringin' heat you gotta love this http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7026&whichpage=3 From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 18:36:47 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:36:47 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Dictionaries=20Onli?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ne?= Message-ID: Oh, my! I wrote that too early in the morning, I guess. Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about the OED!!!! Here is what I meant to say: But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate in that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. In a message dated 3/6/05 10:51:11 AM, paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Ron recommends OAD online. What's the URL? > > Paul > ________________________ > Paul Frank > Chinese-English translator > paulfrank at post.harvard.edu > http://languagejottings.blogspot.com > From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 6 19:16:13 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:16:13 -0500 Subject: Dictionaries Online In-Reply-To: <20050306183652.97364A11C@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > Oh, my! I wrote that too early in the morning, I guess. Sorry for the > confusion. I was talking about the OED!!!! > > Here is what I meant to say: > > But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate > in > that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd > be > willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged > dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been > anything like it in the history of dictionary making. Thanks Ron! I have a three-year-old CD-ROM version of the OED. I wonder if the online version is that much better. I'm a measly freelance translator with no institutional afiliation, so I'd have to fork out quite a bit for the OED online. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 6 20:02:02 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:02:02 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: I wrote Professor Kellaris to ask if he really invented "earworm." He replied as follows: <> I then asked if I could forward his response to ASD-L, and he replied: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:23 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Earworm" Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? By RACHEL KIPP, AP ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, but no cure. ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two songs that are tough to shake. ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Mar 6 21:07:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:07:23 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" & singular y'all Message-ID: That's a singular y'all, ain't it? David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Sunday, March 06, 2005 at 3:02 PM -0500 wrote: > >ADS? Yessuh, y'aw be ve'y weh'come ter share mah response wif d'listserv. >(Let me know if you'd like an audio clip of me reading that sentence. I >spent my youth in Georgia. Hence I am bi-lingual...) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 21:59:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:59:42 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACC10@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Ah, my error. I should obviously have written not "gets (or at least demands) credit" but "has been credited in print" or something along that more mediated line. And as is often the case, it's the attributor of credit who's to blame, not the attributee. L At 3:02 PM -0500 3/6/05, Baker, John wrote: > I wrote Professor Kellaris to ask if he really invented >"earworm." He replied as follows: > > >< > >The answer to your question is an unambiguous "no." Despite the an article >in the NY Times that says the term was "coined by" me, I did not invent (nor >have I ever claimed to invent) the term. Unfortunately, many media sources >picked up the NYT article and reprinted it. > >"Earworms" is a common expression in German. I merely translated (or rather >transliterated) it into English. I take no credit for this, although I will >accept credit for "popularizing" the term though my widely-publicized >research. Thanks for asking! It allows me to set the record straight. > >FYI, after the NYT article, I heard from dozens of irrate German-speaking >people who told me that I did not invent the term. I took the time to >answer each one individually to set the record straight. > >- James>> > > > I then asked if I could forward his response to ASD-L, and he replied: > > >< >ADS? Yessuh, y'aw be ve'y weh'come ter share mah response wif d'listserv. >(Let me know if you'd like an audio clip of me reading that sentence. I >spent my youth in Georgia. Hence I am bi-lingual...) > >-James>> > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:23 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Earworm" > > >Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University >of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for >single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years >post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: > >What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? > >By RACHEL KIPP, AP > >ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm >slinks its way >into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of >annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, >but no cure. > ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' >jingle are two >songs that are tough to shake. > ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing >professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get >stuck in people's >heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from >people all >over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Mar 6 22:03:17 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:03:17 -0800 Subject: Spam (1987) In-Reply-To: <12c.58fd4fb7.2f5ca7bf@aol.com> Message-ID: A couple of early Usenet sightings of "spam" to mean commercial content (the OED has 1993): Usenet, comp.sys.amiga, Binddrivers vs Mount, 30 Nov 1987: "Spam Content: very little" The usenet posting contains no commercial content, but simply asks some technical questions. Usenet, comp.sys.amiga, A2000 serial port != A1000 (ackkkk!), 22 Oct 1987: "This article contains a *little* bit of Spam. :-)" The usenet posting isn't a straight commercial ad, but does plug Amiga at the expense of Commodore. One of the replies to this last contains the exclamation, "Dirty Vikings!", a reference to the Python skit. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 6 23:10:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:10:27 -0600 Subject: Dictionaries Online Message-ID: Residents of Alabama, with a local library card, get access to the Alabama Virtual Library which recently added the OED online. You can get a nonresident borrower's card from the Huntsville Public Library for $15/yr; I don't know if that is sufficient to get access to the AVL databases. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Sun 3/6/2005 12:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Dictionaries Online But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate in that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 23:15:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:15:39 -0800 Subject: dialects in the movies Message-ID: In "Dead Again," Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson switch back and forth from their normal English accents to amazingly persuasive American ones. Truly instructive. Wish I'd thought of it sooner. JL PS: For some reason, the first draft of this went to Dave Wilton. Sorry, Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 01:24:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:24:13 EST Subject: "Like water for chocolate" (Mexican proverb) (1935) Message-ID: (GOOGLE GROUPS) 2001newsgroupie Sep 22 2001, 3:30 pm Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films From: "2001newsgroupie" <2001newsgroupi... at SPAMhome Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:30:32 GMT Local: Sat, Sep 22 2001 3:30 pm Subject: Like Water for Chocolate I recently saw this movie but I missed the significance of the title. I understand that it is a partial quote of a Mexican proverb. Does anybody happen to know the whole proverb? Thanks. ... ... I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this Mexican/chocolate proverb. It was the title of a 1993 movie. ... PURO MEXICANO \edited by J. Frank Dobie Austin Texas Folk-Lore Society Publications--Number XII 1935 Pf, 213: _Ranchero Sayings of the Border_, by Howard D, Wesley Some other expressions, for most of which there are English analogues, are _"Comiste gallo?"_ (Did you eat a fighting cock?) and _"como agua para chocolate"_ (like water for chocolate, which is hot). The first is a clever way of asking, "Are you angry?" and corresponds loosely to our saying, "He must have got up on the wrong side of the bed." The other expression is applied to one who is angry. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 01:27:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:27:40 -0500 Subject: "Like water for chocolate" (Mexican proverb) (1935) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:24 PM -0500 3/6/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >(GOOGLE GROUPS) > 2001newsgroupie Sep 22 2001, 3:30 pm > Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films From: "2001newsgroupie" ><2001newsgroupi... at SPAMhome Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:30:32 GMT >Local: Sat, Sep 22 >2001 3:30 pm Subject: Like Water for Chocolate > >I recently saw this movie but I missed the significance of the title. I >understand that it is a partial quote of a Mexican proverb. Does anybody >happen to know the whole proverb? Thanks. >... >... >I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this Mexican/chocolate proverb. It was > the title of a 1993 movie. And the movie was based on an eponymous novel by, if memory serves, Laura Esquivel. I don't recall the movie explaining the proverb, but I assume the book does. Larry >... >PURO MEXICANO >\edited by J. Frank Dobie >Austin >Texas Folk-Lore Society Publications--Number XII >1935 >Pf, 213: _Ranchero Sayings of the Border_, by Howard D, Wesley >Some other expressions, for most of which there are English analogues, are >_"Comiste gallo?"_ (Did you eat a fighting cock?) and _"como agua para >chocolate"_ (like water for chocolate, which is hot). The first is a >clever way of >asking, "Are you angry?" and corresponds loosely to our saying, "He must have >got up on the wrong side of the bed." The other expression is applied to one >who is angry. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 01:54:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:02 EST Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: GAMES AND SONGS OF AMERICAN CHILDREN by William Wells Newell New York: Harper & Brothers 1884 ... There's a lot here. DARE should have cited it for "potsie" (NYC game). Church/Steeple is here, as is Little Sally Waters. ... ... Pg. 70: _Little Sally Waters._ (...) In the north of England the heroine's name is _Sally Walker_. ... Pg. 102: _Trials, Trouble and Tribulation._ All participants are blindfolded, and joining hands, march forward, singing-- ... Here we go through the Jewish nation, Trials, troubles, and tribulation. ... The fun consists in bringing up against a door, or in causing a general downfall by tripping over some obstacle. ... Pg. 122: _Follow Your Leader._ ... Pg. 129: _The Farmer in the Dell._ ... Pg. 131: _Right Elbow In._ Put your right elbow in, Put your right elbow out, Shake yourselves a little, And turn yourselves about. (The test says this is "Ugly Mug" on Boston and "Linkumbooby" in England--ed.) ... Pg. 138: _The Church and the Steeple._ Here is the church, Here is the steeple, Here is the parson, And all the people. (The text says the Italian version is "This is the Inferno, and this the Paradiso"--ed.) ... Pg. 160: _I Spy._ ... Pg. 174: Tickle's, tickle's on the knee; If you laugh, you don't love me. --_Philadelphia._ ... Pg. 182: _Hockey._ This sport is also called _Shinny_. ... Pg. 184: _Base Ball._ The present scientific game, which we naturally do not intend to describe, was known in Massachusetts, twenty years ago, as the "New York game." ... Pg. 188: _Hop-Scotch._ In Italy the three last divisions are _Inferno_, _Purgatorio_, and _Paradiso_. In New York the last is called _Pot_, ... Pg. 202: Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, How many monkeys are there here? 1, 2, 3, you are he(she). ---_Massachusetts to Georgia_, ... School's up, school's down, School's all around the town. ... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, All goof children go to heaven. --_Massachusetts to Pennsylvania_. ,,, Monfay's child is fair of face (...)--_Georgia_. ... Pg. 203: Engine No. 9 Out goes she. --_Philadelphia_. ... From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 7 05:29:30 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:29:30 -0500 Subject: marginal hires Message-ID: Boston Globe article about the Larry Summers' use of the term "marginal hires" and what it means to most people: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/03/06/marginal_intentions/ Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 05:55:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:55:11 -0600 Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: When did this morph into "hokey pokey"? ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sun 3/6/2005 7:54 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) ... Pg. 131: _Right Elbow In._ Put your right elbow in, Put your right elbow out, Shake yourselves a little, And turn yourselves about. (The test says this is "Ugly Mug" on Boston and "Linkumbooby" in England--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 08:26:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:26:50 EST Subject: Dirty jokes, children's rhymes in Keystone Folklore Quarterly OT: Message-ID: OT: I was rushing a post to watch the Oprah Winfrey movie (THEIR EYES WERE WATCHING GOD) on Sunday. It wasn't very good...Sorry for the typos. DARE does have that 1884 "pot" cite under "pot' and not "potsy"...Also, DARE has a "lemonade" entry, but an 1899 citation under "New York" for "What's your trade?/Lemonade." ... ... I've been going through the Keystone Folklore Quarterly. There's a lot of stuff. ... ... Summer 1970, Keystone Folklore Quarterly, vol. XV, mp. 2, "One-Liners as a Folklore Genre" by Timothy Curry. ... Pg. 88: 1. It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. 2. It's colder than the windy side of a witch's tit. 3. It's hotter than a fresh-screwed ewe with all her wool on. Pg. 89: 4. There's tears in my eyes as big as horse turds. 5. ...horny as a three-peckered gopher. 6. ...you'd be useless as tits on a bull for Laurie. 7. Hinkle, you're so dumb you couldn't pour piss out of a boot without instructions on the hell. (See ADS-L archives for this--ed.) 8. ...you're so blind you couldn't find your own asshole with both hands and three people helping you. 9. Hinkle, you wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground. 10. If my dog had a face like yours, I'd shave its ass and teach it to walk backward. (...) It looks like someone put out the fire on your face with an icepick. Pg. 90: 11. ...your breath smells like something crawled up your ass and died there. 12. ...SBD (silent but deadly)...SOE (suffocate or evacuate). 13. ...you don't have enough brains to fit in your left nut before puberty. 14. ...sis on you pister, you're not so mucking fuch. 15. ...ain't that a bite in the balls. 16. ...there's a bun in the oven. 17. ...hang 'em on your nose and snap at 'em. ... Pg. 91: 18. His definition is "that's as gross as a hicky on a hemorrhoid." (Google for "hickey on a hemorrhoid"--ed.) ... Pg. 93: _Dirty Jokes At The Academy And Angela Morrison_ by Thomas Peck ... Pg. 96: "When does a cub-scout become a boy-scout?" Ans.--"When he eats his first brownie." ... Pg. 96: In Days of old when knights were bold And jocks were not invented, They tied a sock around their cock Thus ruptures were prevented. ... Pg. 98: "Confucious say, Birgin like balloon--one prick all gone." "Confucious say, Kotex not best thing on earth, but next to it." ... Pg. 100: In days of old when knights were bold and toilets weren't invented They laid their loads beside the road and walked away contented. ... ... Summer 1966, Keystone Folklore Quarterly, "Jump-Rope Rhymes: Suggestions for Classification and Study" by Bruce R. Buckley Pg. 99: "Have you heard the latest skip-rope rhyme?" "No, what is it?" "Oh well--skip it!" ... Fall 1966, Keystone Folklore Quarterly,, vol XI,, no. 3, "An Annotated Collection of Children's Lore: Part Three of Oral Tradition Among Children in Central New York State," by David J. Winslow. Pg. 151: BABY ROPE, ROCK THE CRADLE, OR BLUE BELLS Pg. 152: OVERS HOT OR THE HOTS PEPPER: Rope is turned as gast as possible. EVER-ENDER NEVER-ENDER FRONT DOORS BACK DOORS DOUBLE ROPE OR DOUBLES CHASE THE FOX CALLING IN BEGGING BAKING BREAD: A player runs in with a stone in his hand, and while jumping places it on the ground, straightens up, picks up the stone again, and runs out. TWIRLS OUT Pg. 153: SALT, VINEGAR, MUSTARD, PEPPER: Often used as a rhyme or at the end of a rhyme, these four words mean sucessively faster speeds of jumping. WINDING THE CLOCK THE SWAY TRIO HIGH WATER ... Pg. 162: Tattle tale, tattle tale, Stick your head in a garbage pail! ... Pg. 163: Kindergarten baby, Stick your head in gravy! ... Pg. 164: Don't say it, Your mother'll faint, Your father'll fall In a bucket of paint. ... Pg. 165: I see London, I see France, I see Kevin's underpants! ... Missed me! Now you've got to Kiss me! ... Trick or treat? Smell my feet. Give me something Good to eat. ... Teacher, teacher, In number nine, Stuck here head In a bottle of wine. Pg. 166: No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's dirty looks! ... Tonight, tonight, the pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Smash the windows, break the chairs, Trip the teacher on the stairs. ... _EPITHETS_ Blabbermouth, loudmouth, or big mouth--Someone who talks a lot. ... Fatso--a fat person. ... Grapefruit mouth--someone who talks a lot. ... Yellow-bellied chicken--a coward; fattie--a fat person, and smartie--someone who thinks he is smart. ... Gabber-trap--someone who talks a lot. ... Chicken or scaredy-cat--someone who is a coward; big bruiser or tubby--a fat person. Pg. 167: Pud, big bruiser, or pugsley--a fat person; Scaredy-cat, or yellow--a coward. ... Black eggs--a person who is just dirty; skinny bones--a thin person, an fatty--a fat person. ... Nanny goat--a fat person' match stick--a thin person. ... Nut--a crazy person; fatty--a fat person, and chicken--a coward. ... Chicken-shit--a coward. ... Creep-ass--someone you don't like. ... Garbage-mouth liar--someone who lies about you. ... Pg. 168: _RIDDLES_ What falls down but never gets hurt?--Rain. What can you give away and still keep?--Your word. What goes uphill and downhill but never moves?--A road. What has a mouth but never eats?--A river. What has eyes but cannot see?--A potato. What has four legs but only one foot?--A bed. What has ear but cannot hear?--Corn. What has legs but cannot walk?--Table. What has arms and legs but no head?--Armchair. What is black and white and red all over?--Newspaper. What is very light but you can't hold it for long?--Your breath. What holds a lot of water but has a lot of holes in it?--A sponge. ... Pg. 170; What's black and white with a cherry on top?--A police car. Pg. 172: What starts with F and ends with CK?--Firetruck. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 09:50:07 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 04:50:07 EST Subject: Boston Globe is here! Message-ID: The Boston Globe is here! 1972-1900 appears to now be available. ... ... (DOUGHNUT HOLE) _Letter to the Editor 1 -- No Title; Those Unlucky Gloves. What Ails the Cat An Elementary Lesson Only. Let This Dron Now, Please. Asks One of "Sagmore, Jr." Severak Answers. Is it Right? Commends the English. For What He Was and All He Dared. Labor Questions. An Appeal to "W." Some One Said Magnesia Would. Skating Backwards. That Bible Class. What Are These Screens? How Many Senses Are There, "Carl." Another Postal Record. Wants to Know Flow the Machine Works. Doughnuts Whole and Doughnut Hole. About that Simple Rule for the Diametor. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=563532072&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110186435&clientId=65882) Boston. Mar 18, 1886. p. 4 (1 page) : ... _MAKE GOOD DOUGHNUTS.; Anna Barrows Tells How This Can be Done. The Whole Art of Mixing. Shaping and Frying Satisfactorily Explained. Histort of the Evolution of Doughnuts Not Romantic, but Interesting. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=570077212&SrchMode=1&sid=37&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188353&clientId=65882) ANNA BARROWS. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Feb 18, 1894. p. 27 (1 page) ... ... (BEANTOWN) _BOSTON, 4; CHICAGO, 2.; But the Tronble is, New York Keeps Winning, Too. Manager Bancroft's Team of Grays Dust the Diamond with Detroit. Beantown Unions Too Much for the Porkopolitan Unions. New Yorks, 4; Buffalos, O. Providences, 25; Detroits, 3. Clevelands, 7; Philadelphias, 5. Boston Unions, ... Yales, 6, Darmouths,2. Seacons, 10, Harvards, 7. Other Games. New York Still in the Lead. Cames Today. Three Strikes. FIFTH REGIMENT DRILL Colonel Bancroft's Command In Mechanic's Hall and on the Common. SOMERVILLE. Boston Scientific Society. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=547506842&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110186858&clientId=65882) Boston. May 15, 1884. p. 8 (1 page) ... ... (BEAN TOWN) _THE TEMPERANCE MEETING.; A Large Gathering of Inebriate Men--Scriptural Reading and Address by Mr. Moody --The Testimony of Reformed Men. Requests for Prayer. [...] MY FREE UPON A ROCK." The Voluntary Testimony. AN INTERESTING LETTER. HE OPENED A TEMPERANCE [...]., UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF LIQUOR, Mr. Moody's Prayer. The Afternoon Meeting. THE EVENING SERVICE An Immense Gathering at the Tabernacle-- Mr. Moody Preaches an Effective Sermon on "The Heating of Naaman." Mr. Moody's Sermon on "Naaman." NAAMAN DIDN'T DESPISE THE MESSENGER, IT'S AGAINST MY REASON. YOU CAN SEE HIM AS HIS HEAD GOES DOWN Mr. Moody's Prayer. The "After Meetings" _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=541946042&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11101868 95&clientId=65882) Bost on. Mar 24, 1877. p. 2 (2 pages) ... ... (OLL KORRECT) _VERBAL FOUNDLINGS.; Paternity of an Odd Lot of Words and Sayings. Queer Incidents That Gave Them Tolerance in the English Language. Facts Regarding Common Phrases That None of the Dictionaries Tell. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568016452&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309 &VName=HNP&TS=1110187049&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 9, 1889. p. 21 (1 page) ... ... (HOT DOG) 1. _CASE DISMISSED.; Charge Against Sheehan Not Sustained. Order Received in Stastions With Great Joy. Commissioners Divided on the Matter. Whast Gen Masrtin Has to Say About Verdict. How Police and Public View the Entire Subject. GEN MARTIN'S OPINIONS. He Talks Freely in Regard to Case of Sergt Sheehan. WHAT OTHERS THINK. Different Opinions of Officers and Men Around Town. GREENTED WITH CHEERS. Officers of Division 4 Receive the Good News with Jov. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=570435502&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10 &VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Aug 8, 1894. p. 1 (2 pages) ... 2. _OUT INTO THE STREETS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=570039102&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1 110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1893. p. 6 (1 page) ... 3. _AMONG THE FIREMEN.; State Firemen's Association Will Meet at Gloucester, Oct. 11, 12 and 13-- Objections Made to the Date and Place of the League Meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=568756422&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=6588 2) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 11, 1893. p. 26 (1 page) ... 4. _COLLECTING BADGES.; Thousands of Wheelmen in Washington--Smooth Pavements Are Hard and They Are Having a Good Time. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=568382302&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) G S HOWARD. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1892. p. 2 (1 page) ... 5. _Showing How Children "Catch On."_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=563501152&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 27, 1887. p. 18 (1 page) ... 6. _TWELVE DOG TALES.; Attacked by Seven Savage Dogs. Senator Cameron's Dog a Nuisance. Little Johnny on Dogs. Astonishing the Dogs. Dogs as Watchmen. How to Deal With Dog Bites. A Dog's Services Officially Recognized. A Howling Dog Saves a Life. The Newspaper Dog. Two Hounds Kill and Eat a Horse. A Dog That Attempted Suicide. What a Dog's Tail is Good For. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=548209892&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. Feb 8, 1883. p. 3 (1 page) ... 7. _MEXICAN AFFAIRS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=536515472&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clie ntId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 16, 1872. p. 5 (1 page) ... ... (WINDY CITY) _LOST BY ERRORS.; Detroit Wins the Morning Game from Boston And Rain Stops the Slugging in the Afternoon. Anson's Windy City Players Win Twice, And Draw Away from the Gothamites. One for the Phillies and One for the Pittsburgs. Gaffney's Senators Celebrate by Defeating the Hoosiers. The Blues Play Two Games and Win One. RAIN STOPPED THE HITTING. The Bostons Bat Weldman as They Used To, But it Don't Count. Philadelphia, 9; Pittsburgs, 5. Pittsburgs, 8; Philadelphias, 4. Washingtons,6; Indianapolis,2. Chicagos, 5; New Yorks, 1. Chicagos, 4; New Yorks, 2. Boston Still Hangs to Second Place. THE BLUES DO SOME HITTING. And Defeat the Lynn Aggregation with Ease. Lynns,14; Blues,14. Manchesters, 12; Lowells,8. Manchesters, 8; Lowells, 7; Portlands,14; Salems,6. Lawrences; 31; Haverhills, 3. Portlands, 15; Salems, 11. The Lowells Take a Tumble. American Association Games. Games Today. Other Games. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=563910812&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187528&clientId=65882) Boston. Jul 5, 1887. p. 5 (1 page) ... ... (HARVARD BEETS) (Typo?) _YALE'S DAY.; Mott Haven Cup Her's by ... Points to... Harvard Men Sober and Disheartened. Crimson Not In Games at Any Stage. Lost Five Firsts Won Two Weeks Ago. Records Broken in Four Events on New York Field. The U. of P. Team Comes in Third With 11 Points. Princeton Fourth With One Less to Her Credit. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568733912&SrchMode=1&sid=26&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187880&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. May 28, 1893. p. 1 (2 pages) ... ... (DUDE & DANDY) _A Plea for the So-Called Dude_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=548314092&SrchMode=1&sid=28&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10187981&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 10, 1883. p. 2 (1 page) ... (FUDGE + COLLEGE) _ANTI-GUSH SOCIETY.; Needed to Stop an Evil in Women's Colleges. Students Talk Divine Fudge, Perfe Dreams and Terribly Good Times. Their Conversation Embarrasses Their Visitors, Wearies Their Brothers. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=44&did=571632332&SrchMode=1&sid=43&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188565&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jan 28, 1900. p. 33 (1 page) ... (DEACON PORTER'S HAT) No hits. ... (LOBSTER + NEWBURG) 1. _BOSTON COOKING SCHOOL.; The Year's Lessons Drawing to a Close. Some New Dishes Daintily Prepared and Approved. Swedish Timbals with Creamed Oysters--Rice Pudding with Rose Sauce. Lobster Newburg. Swedish Timbals. Creamed Oysters. Rice Padding. Rose Sauce. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=571370092&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872. Apr 4, 1889. p. 4 (1 page) ... 2. _BEST HOME COOKING.; "Daily Hints" Are Popular With Women Readers. "Questions Asked and Answered" Prove a Hit in the Recipe Department. "True and Tried" Still Coming in From Clever Women of New England. Read Carefully. Clam Chowder for pictures First-Class Turkey Dressing. Wanted--Bread and Biscuit. Hominy. Cranberry Jelly Old-Fashioned Hard Gingerbread. Mustard Once More. Lobster a la Newburg Fruit Cake. Currant Cake. Cranberry Jelly Again. Orange Cake. Another Pot Roast. Dressing for Chicken Salad. Grandma's Election Cake. Cabbage Salad Cheap Cake. Salad Dressing. Mrs Hawkes' Recipes Wanted. Pumpkin Pie Information. Apple Pie Wanted. Brown Bread Pudding. Cocoanut Custard Angel Cake. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=570562212&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65 882) Boston. Nov 24, 1894. p. 8 (1 page) ... 3. _HOUSEKEEPERS' COLUMN.; True and Tried Recipes From Experienced Cooks. Rules That Have Been Used for Years by the Women of New England. Home-Made Gifts, Crocheting, Knitting and Fancy Work in Variety. Daily Hints to Housekeepers. LOBSTER A LA NEWBURG. QUIRLED POTATOES. Read Carefully. Home-Made Sausage. Carrie's Doughnuts. Stuffed Cucumbers. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=538094372&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. May 3, 1897. p. 8 (1 page) ... 4. _HOUSEKEEPERS' COLUMN.; True and Tried Recipes From Experienced Cooks. Rules That Have Been Used for Years by the Women of New England. Home-Made Gifts, Crocheting, Knitting and Fancy Work in Variety. DAILY HINTS TO HOUSE- KEEPERS. SMOTHERED CHICKEN. Read Carefully. Bavarian Chocolate Cream. Boston Baked Beans. Bread Cakes. Lobster a la Newburg. FANCY WORK. Mat for a Small Table. Embroidery Lace Design. PLANTS AND FLOWERS. How to Plant Roses. The Chinese Primrose. GENERAL CORRESPONDENCE. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=570780662&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName =HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Mar 31, 1900. p. 8 (1 page) ... (All right! Time for bed!) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 11:48:39 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:48:39 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar item worn on the head ... --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 12:59:40 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:59:40 -0500 Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request In-Reply-To: <006301c49dd8$40400250$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Two requests for anyone who has access to the Boston Globe and Atlanta Constitution on ProQuest Historical Newspapers: What is the earliest occurrence of "real McCoy" in those papers? "real Mackay"? "real Sandy Mackay"? What is the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in those papers? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 13:29:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:29:43 -0500 Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:02 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >GAMES AND SONGS OF AMERICAN CHILDREN >by William Wells Newell >New York: Harper & Brothers >1884 > ... >There's a lot here. DARE should have cited it for "potsie" (NYC game). >Church/Steeple is here, as is Little Sally Waters. [...] >Pg. 138: _The Church and the Steeple._ >Here is the church, >Here is the steeple, >Here is the parson, >And all the people. >(The text says the Italian version is "This is the Inferno, and this the >Paradiso"--ed.) ----- _Atlanta Constitution_, Feb 15, 1880, p. 2 Baby Dimple's House Block upon block, block upon block; Wait, baby, wait till the time to knock; Hush, Baby Dimple, still as a mouse! This is the way to build a house. What shall it be -- a church so high With a steeple up to the very sky? First we will build a good thick wall-- Still, baby, still! or you'll spoil it all; Block upon block, till all is complete; That is the way to build, my sweet! Here is the door, and here is the steeple, Within are the preacher and all the people. Now, baby, now for the final shock! Ah that was only a tiny knock; Once again, Dimple--one, two, three! Over it goes, in your merry glee! And that is the end of the church and the steeple; But where are the preacher and all the people? --Mabel C. Dowd in The Nursery ----- --Ben Zimmer From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Mon Mar 7 13:59:12 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: angle of the eye Message-ID: This seems common in literature about glaucoma - 4,250 hits in Google. It refers to the filtration or drainage angle where the cornea attaches to the iris. OED (2002) and the other dictionaries I checked don't have an entry for the phrase, nor is it defined under "angle." A full-text search shows nine citations. See esp. the 1911 cite under "iridial," adj. T. M. Paikeday www.paikeday.net From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 14:24:40 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:24:40 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050304050102.97B08B2509@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter sez--- >>> One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. <<< Rude Awakening Copyright Mark A. Mandel 2004 To the tune of Jingle Bells (starting with the verse: "Dashing through the snow") My new cell phone plays A choice of wake-up song. the right start to my days is going very wrong I chose a pretty theme But now, alas, I find That blasted repetitious meme Has occupied my mind. (CHO:) Pachelbel, Pachelbel, Filling up my brain. The thunder of the Canon Is driving me insane. (2x) A charming piece composed by Johannn Pachelbel. What idiot supposed this phone could play it well? Unmodulated tinkling Of just eight bars' extent (spoken:) Repeat! Of just eight bars' extent (spoken:) Repeat! Of just eight bars'-- (spoken:) NO!... A mind-block better than the best that Bester could invent! (CHO) === ["But it's not to the tune of Pachelbel's Canon!" "That's the idea. I was trying to get _away_ from it!"] mark by hand From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 7 14:30:32 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:30:32 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: From: "Sally O. Donlon" : Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my : home, have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. The Orange County (Florida) School District uses the much-less evocative "Bad Weather Day" for the one[1] such day one the calendar (the day before Thanksgiving, since bad weather seems to come earlier here than further north). I've never heard any other terms for it here, except for the shortened form "weather day". Seminole County, just to the north, calls it a "Make-Up Day" on their calendar--don't know if it gets called something else in casual speech. [1] Yeah, we needed a few more this past year. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 7 14:30:34 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:30:34 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter : As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" : (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, : "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to : refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the : drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and : less common on campus. I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not something that's really in active use *now*. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 15:03:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:03:33 -0500 Subject: deminibus Message-ID: CQ TODAY March 5, 2005 – 1:13 a.m. Cochran Coins New Term for Multiple-Bill Spending Packages By Jonathan Allen, CQ Staff In typically understated fashion, Senate Appropriations Chairman Thad Cochran, R-Miss., has coined a new term in the lexicon of spending. After winning his colleagues’ support for a plan to restructure his committee, Cochran said the days of the appropriations omnibus — a measure combining several spending bills — are finished. “We’re not going to have any,” Cochran declared softly. But, questioned about the possibility of a “minibus,” a diminutive that has come to describe an omnibus bearing just a few bills, Cochran quickly countered with a new construction, presumably meaning a vehicle with a very small number of bills. He called it “deminibus.” Source: CQ Today Round-the-clock coverage of news from Capitol Hill. © 2005 Congressional Quarterly Inc. All Rights Reserved From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 15:11:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:11:16 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: I can only say that "dope" appears to be a leading term for marijuana among my undergraduate students, though "hootch" may be more chill. Any discord created by the term as applied to Coca-Cola should apply even if "dope" is merely in one's passive vocabulary. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Lighter : As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" : (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, : "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to : refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the : drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and : less common on campus. I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not something that's really in active use *now*. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 15:27:12 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:27:12 -0600 Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request Message-ID: "public be damned" SPIES ON THE STAND. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Aug 10, 1886; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5 / col 3 "As an illustration of the indifference of capitalists to the suffering of the poor, the witness referred to the expression of Vanderbilt: "The public be damned." " BIRTH AND BULLION. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960); Dec 16, 1889; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Boston Globe pg. 4/1 "It is this which constitutes the chief offence of Vanderbilt's "public be damned" sentiment, and of Mr. Blaine's assertion that trusts are purely "private affairs." " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:00 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request > > > Two requests for anyone who has access to the Boston Globe > and Atlanta Constitution on ProQuest Historical Newspapers: > > What is the earliest occurrence of "real McCoy" in those > papers? "real Mackay"? "real Sandy Mackay"? > > What is the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in > those papers? > > Fred Shapiro > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 15:32:23 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:32:23 -0600 Subject: Boston Globe is here! Message-ID: Looks like the Boston Globe coverage is currently from 1872 to 1900. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 15:42:25 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:42:25 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050307114839.53309.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Margaret Lee wrote: > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I > don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap > (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been > called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a > bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar > item worn on the head ... > What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? > A conventional stocking or watch cap is much heavier-weight, and must be knit. Here's the first hit from Google Images . To my mind, the prototypical do-rag is what football players wear under their helmets. These seem to be fairly thin cloth, and could be woven rather than knit. -- Alice Faber From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 15:48:05 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:48:05 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/7/05 10:11:33 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I can only say that "dope" appears to be a leading term for marijuana among > my undergraduate students, though "hootch" may be more chill. > > Any discord created by the term as applied to Coca-Cola should apply even if > "dope" is merely in one's passive vocabulary. > > JL > I tend to agree with JL, although I must confess that this is not something that I discuss with my students. I'll pass this message on to Connie Eble, who regularly polls her students about their terms for all sorts of things. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 16:38:13 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:38:13 -0500 Subject: More on singular y'all Message-ID: In an online forum, from a native Nashvillite, now living in New England: "Where I grew up y'all used to only one person hinted at their size - think rude here. Love the southern way of insulting a person right to their face and pretending they hadn't said a thing." -- Alice Faber From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 16:44:19 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:44:19 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503070501.AAA23943@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different vowels in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it doesn't fit comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to call it? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 17:31:42 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:31:42 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <422C7661.1080605@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 10:42 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Margaret Lee wrote: >> >>"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >>I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I >>don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap >>(although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been >>called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a >>bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar >>item worn on the head ... > > > > What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch >cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? > > > >A conventional stocking or watch cap is much heavier-weight, and must be >knit. Here's the first hit from Google Images >. > >To my mind, the prototypical do-rag is what football players wear under >their helmets. These seem to be fairly thin cloth, and could be woven >rather than knit. > >-- > >Alice Faber Ah, a toboggan! From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 17:42:45 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:42:45 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <20050307050107.3B7B3B25AF@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer quotes: >>>>> http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B **iff everything that falls under B also falls under A**. In this case, B is called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and 'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] <<<<< (1) That part is backward: it should be "iff everything that falls under **A** also falls under **B**". (2) And we also need the requirement that not everything that falls under B falls under A, because in that case they are synonyms. E.g., (1) all dogs (A) are mammals (B), but not all mammals are dogs, so "dog" is a hyponym of "mammal". -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] "The last word" on ADS-L is like "the last bug" in programming. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Mar 7 18:32:35 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:32:35 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <1110213859.422c84e37ce5f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / >sing their music if they are musicians. > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different >vowels >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >doesn't fit >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to >call >it? > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~ The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I think that usage was fairly widespread. A. Murie From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 19:11:19 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:11:19 EST Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 Message-ID: Connie Eble reports: Dear Ron,    I'll ask my students.  But my feeling is that dope is used today as much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple of years.                                      Connie From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Mar 7 19:04:35 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:04:35 -0500 Subject: jagon watch In-Reply-To: <200503070844212.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Microneighborhoods Manhattan real estate term for "zones of hipness" engineered by specialty retailers to attract a specific demographic - artists, foodies, sexaholics, fashionistas. Bluefields Construction sites built on land reclaimed from the ocean. Visual Motor Ecstasy Coined by pediatrician Mel Levine to describe a range of intensely stimulating pursuits (most notably first-person shooter videogames) that involve rapid movement and tend to be nonverbal and devoid of intellectual enrichment. Placeshifting Watching or listening to recorded media on any network-connected device - not just the laptop or TiVo box that originally received it. The next logical step beyond timeshifting. - Gareth Branwyn (jargon at wiredmag.com) karen <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Mar 7 20:33:44 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:33:44 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503071030945.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I learned this word when in 1961. when I first learned to bay the baritone ukelele and was asked to participate in hootenany's with the rest of the students. We met at someone's home about once a month for a singalong. We did learn folksongs, but you could have sung anything. The point to perform and to sing together. fyi - classmate Joel Bernstein http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ringleaders/Home_ringleaders.html best, Karen Ellis At 01:32 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Hootenanny >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from > the New > >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz > pianist, a > >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual > >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 > >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / > >sing their music if they are musicians. > > > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' > >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful > >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different > >vowels > >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for > >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it > >doesn't fit > >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to > >call > >it? > > > >Damien Hall > >University of Pennsylvania >~~~~~~~~ >The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >think that usage was fairly widespread. >A. Murie <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/ Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 21:15:45 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:15:45 -0500 Subject: subdaily Message-ID: "These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly free, many amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling inboxes on a subdaily basis." -- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by David Streitfeld Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident meaning is 'more frequent than daily', and Google has something like 280 hits which, at a quick glance, are all technical from various scientific disciplines (biology, astronomy...) and have this meaning. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 21:42:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:42:37 -0600 Subject: subdaily Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark A. Mandel > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:16 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: subdaily > > "These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly > free, many amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling > inboxes on a subdaily basis." > -- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by > David Streitfeld > > Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident > meaning is 'more frequent than daily', and Google has > something like 280 hits which, at a quick glance, are all > technical from various scientific disciplines (biology, > astronomy...) and have this meaning. > Title: Paleontological Evidence on the Earth's Rotational History Since Early Precambrian Authors: Pannella, G. Journal: Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol. 16 (1972), p.212 "Complacent increments reflect both physiological and astronomical rhythms and are highly complex with many subdaily lines." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:01:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:01:37 -0500 Subject: Vanderbilt: "The public be damned" (1882) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asked about the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in the Boston Globe and Atlanta Constitution, and Bill Mullins supplied cites from 1886 and 1889, attributed to William Vanderbilt. The Vanderbilt quote first circulated in October 1882, though the word "damned" was often excised. Here is the original New York Times report of Vanderbilt's comments to a correspondent in Chicago: ----- New York Times, Oct 9, 1882, p. 1 Chicago, Oct. 8 -- Mr. William H. Vanderbilt and party arrived in Chicago this afternoon direct from New-York. To a reporter Mr. Vanderbilt said: [...] "Does your limited express pay?" "No; not a bit of it. We only run it because we are forced to do so by the action of the Pennsylvania Road. It doesn't pay expenses. We would abandon it if it was not four our competitor keeping its train on." "But don't you run it for the public benefit?" "The public be -----. What does the public care for the railroads except to get as much out of them for as small a consideration as possible. I don't take any stock in this silly nonsense about working for anybody's good, but our own because we are not. When we make a move we do it because it is our interest to do so, no because we expect to do somebody else some good. Of course we like to do everything possible for the benefit of humanity in general, but when we do we first see that we are benefiting ourselves. Railroads are not run on sentiment, but on business principles and to pay, and I don't mean to be egotistic when I say that the roads which I have had anything to do with have generally paid pretty well." ----- Four days later, the Times ran a letter from Vanderbilt disowning the published comments, followed by a note from the correspondent standing by the article: ----- New York Times, Oct 13, 1882, p. 5 To the Editor of the New-York Times: My attention has been called to an interview said to have been had with me at Chicago, and published in The New-York Times and other Eastern papers of Oct. 9. I conversed with several reporters at Chicago on Sunday last, and, while I am not able now to give from memory all the particulars, I know that the published statement differs materially from what I said. I do not, and never have, entertained any such opinions as are attributed to me. I did not use the language reported as to the public, the Anti-Monopoly politicians, or the Nickle Plated Road, and both my words and ideas are misreported and misrepresented in the report. I have frequently been interviewed by the New-York press, and every one knows I never use language or expressions as attributed to me by the reporter. --William H. Vanderbilt. Denver, Col., Thursday, Oct. 12, 1882. [Note. -- Our Chicago correspondent who was requested to meet the issue of fact raised by Mr. Vanderbilt, does so as follows:] [...] The two reporters who met Mr. Vanderbilt were John D. Sherman of the Tribune, and Clarence P. Dresser of the Metropolitan Press Bureau. These gentlemen conducted the interview together, and every word which Mr. Vanderbilt said was overheard by both and the main points noted. When he referred to the Anti-Monopolists, he certainly did say that he considered them to be, for the most part, fools and black-mailers. Also, he certainly did say "the public be -----," when reference was made to whether he ran his limited express for its benefit. ----- Despite Vanderbilt's protests, the comments circulated widely in the following days and weeks, often serving as fodder for editorial writers. Some newspapers supplied the entire unexpurgated quote: ----- Washington Post, Oct 14, 1882, p. 2 The public gracefully declines to accept Mr. Vanderbilt's kind permission to "be damned" for not liking his stingy management of railroads and the fatal results of his "economy." ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 18, 1882, p. 4 This, however, but faintly represents Mr. Vanderbilt's frankness. "The public be -----!" he exclaimed. [...] Mr. Vanderbilt may damn the public as long as his vulgar breath lasts, but the public will finally get even with him -- of this he may rest assured. ----- Washington Post, Oct 19, 1882, p. 2 Hoever willing Mr. Vanderbilt may be for the public to "be damned," he is in no hurry to arrive at the final judgment in his own proper person. ----- Boston Globe, Oct 25, 1882, p. 2 The rumor now is that Vanderbilt only said "The public be blessed." But is he taking any pains to bless it? Well, not this season. ----- New York Times, Oct 30, 1882, p. 4 In his famous interview with a Chicago reporter, in which Mr. Vanderbilt was represented as saying, "The public be blanked," or words to that effect, the great man also gave his views concerning the so-called "Nickel Plate" Railroad. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 22:09:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:09:27 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny Message-ID: So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different college campus. If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes dancing in cages. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Hootenanny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / >sing their music if they are musicians. > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different >vowels >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >doesn't fit >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to >call >it? > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~ The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I think that usage was fairly widespread. A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 22:12:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:12:43 -0800 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 Message-ID: Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may create additional discord. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Connie Eble reports: Dear Ron, =A0=A0 I'll ask my students.=A0 But my feeling is that dope is used today as much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple of years. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 C= onnie --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:26:27 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:26:27 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <20050307220927.23275.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't that disco? At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >college campus. > >If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >dancing in cages. > >JL > >sagehen wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Hootenanny >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from > the New > >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a > >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual > >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 > >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / > >sing their music if they are musicians. > > > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' > >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful > >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different > >vowels > >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for > >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it > >doesn't fit > >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to > >call > >it? > > > >Damien Hall > >University of Pennsylvania >~~~~~~~~ >The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >think that usage was fairly widespread. >A. Murie > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:57:47 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:57:47 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050307172458.035b1ab0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. Peter --On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't > that disco? > > At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >> So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >> about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >> college campus. >> >> If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >> dancing in cages. >> >> JL >> >> sagehen wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: Hootenanny >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------- >> >> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >> the New >> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >> > >> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >> > syllables and different vowels >> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >> > doesn't fit >> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >> > *what* to call >> > it? >> > >> > Damien Hall >> > University of Pennsylvania >> ~~~~~~~~ >> The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >> didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >> singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >> might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >> think that usage was fairly widespread. >> A. Murie >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 23:12:06 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:12:06 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1110207467@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old! But I was expressing surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig." Disco was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for that). But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! At 05:57 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter > >--On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't >>that disco? >> >>At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >>>So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >>>about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >>>college campus. >>> >>>If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >>>dancing in cages. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>sagehen wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: sagehen >>>Subject: Re: Hootenanny >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>------- >>> >>> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >>>the New >>> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >>> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >>> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >>> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >>> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >>> > >>> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >>> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >>> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >>> > syllables and different vowels >>> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >>> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >>> > doesn't fit >>> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >>> > *what* to call >>> > it? >>> > >>> > Damien Hall >>> > University of Pennsylvania >>>~~~~~~~~ >>>The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >>>didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >>>singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >>>might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >>>think that usage was fairly widespread. >>>A. Murie >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 23:42:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:42:24 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny Message-ID: "Hootenanny was presented as a traveling folk music jamboree. Taped at various college campuses, it debuted in the Spring of 1963 as a 30-minute show (8:30pm EST, Saturday) for 13 weeks.... "Shindig! was a rock 'n' roll series that aired on ABC from September 1964 through January 1966." -- TV Tome (Internet, as of today). The babes in cages may have come late in the series. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Hootenanny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old! But I was expressing surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig." Disco was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for that). But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! At 05:57 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter > >--On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't >>that disco? >> >>At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >>>So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >>>about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >>>college campus. >>> >>>If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >>>dancing in cages. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>sagehen wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: sagehen >>>Subject: Re: Hootenanny >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>------- >>> >>> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >>>the New >>> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >>> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >>> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >>> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >>> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >>> > >>> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >>> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >>> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >>> > syllables and different vowels >>> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >>> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >>> > doesn't fit >>> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >>> > *what* to call >>> > it? >>> > >>> > Damien Hall >>> > University of Pennsylvania >>>~~~~~~~~ >>>The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >>>didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >>>singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >>>might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >>>think that usage was fairly widespread. >>>A. Murie >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 8 01:06:46 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:06:46 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050307180905.03625e28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: --On Monday, March 7, 2005 6:12 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! I agree. In the early '70s one of the shopping malls in suburban Chattanooga, TN, (where I lived) had periodic hootenannies, in which banjo-and-fiddle ensembles from the area gathered to perform, judges awarded prizes, and the crowds were large. I assumed the use of the term (though probably not the venue) for these events had long predated the popular folk music fad of the 60s and migrated into popular usage along with the music, though I can't prove it. Peter ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Tue Mar 8 02:13:03 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:13:03 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503071500485.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geeze, talk about sounding like old farts! the beat scene, the folk scene, the blues scene, rock and roll scene, the hippy / psychedelic scene and then there was the way uncool totally commercial TV shows which were never a music scene and where you found some contrived uncool crap called Shindig with the way uncool idea of babes in cages might as well rent Austin Powers for an update on the culture of swinging. dancin babe, karen >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter >""" "Shindig," which featured babes in dancing in cages. > >> > >> JL <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> " We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different! " - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Timequake "Bizzare travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God" - Kurt Vonnegut "No One gets in to see the Wizard, Not no way, Not no how!" - The Guard You can't depend on your judgement when your imagination is out of focus. - Mark Twain. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> L (©¿©) K The Educational CyberPlayGround <"_"> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink Hot Site Awards USA Today Best Bets For Educators Award, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 02:31:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:31:23 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <20050307124058.L34968@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 12:42 PM -0500 3/7/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Benjamin Zimmer quotes: > >>>>> >http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf > >An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B > >**iff everything that falls under B also falls under A**. > > In this case, B is >called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and >'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' >and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] > <<<<< > >(1) That part is backward: it should be "iff everything that falls under >**A** also falls under **B**". (2) And we also need the requirement that not >everything that falls under B falls under A, because in that case they are >synonyms. > >E.g., (1) all dogs (A) are mammals (B), but not all mammals are dogs, so >"dog" is a hyponym of "mammal". > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > "The last word" on ADS-L is like "the last bug" in programming. heh heh. another last word: I've never liked "hyperonym", and prefer "superordinate" for the converse of "hyponym", despite the fact that it sounds like it should be the converse of "subordinate" instead. And also on those A's and B's. Mark is of course right, but so is Manfred (at the above website). It depends on whether you're talking extensions (as Mark is) or intensions (as I'm assuming Manfred is). That is, even though the extension of the superordinate, or if you insist the hyperonym, e.g. "man", properly includes that of the hyponym, e.g. "bachelor", in that all bachelors are men but not vice versa, the intension or sense of the hyponym properly includes that of the superordinate, in that "bachelor" is specified for all the features "man" is, plus (at least) one additional feature, in this case [- married]. Aristotle actually remarks on this at one point, noting that the genus includes the species (the set of animals includes the set of men), but the species also includes the genus ("man" includes "animal"). larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:01:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:01:56 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <00af01c52322$3aae9f70$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > > > >: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >: less common on campus. > >I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >something that's really in active use *now*. > even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if that's passé already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old informant, home on spring break... Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke weed". Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:13:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:13:36 -0500 Subject: subdaily In-Reply-To: <20050307161516.T79205@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0500 3/7/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >"These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly free, many >amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling inboxes on a subdaily basis." >-- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by David >Streitfeld > >Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident meaning is 'more >frequent than daily', and Google has something like 280 hits which, at a >quick glance, are all technical from various scientific disciplines >(biology, astronomy...) and have this meaning. > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] A very nice word; at least it's useful, and relatively transparent (I guessed the meaning from the header). An early candidate for Albuquerque, I'd say. I can imagine my dentist telling me I should be brushing subdaily. Or myself realizing that I've been getting subdaily spam entreaties to...whatever. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:19:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:19:07 -0500 Subject: another Tom Kun x-post from Linguist List Message-ID: Actually there were two dialectological queries in this one, although the "fields" are identified as phonetics/phonology/sociolinguistics. One is from Kun (whose earlier query I cross-posted a couple of days ago), the other from someone else. As usual, any replies should go to the originators as well as the list. larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-669. Mon Mar 07 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.669, Qs: Australian A-Lengthening;Pittsburgh/Dallas Accents 1) Date: 07-Mar-2005 From: Tonio Green < toniogreen at web.de > Subject: Australian A-Lengthening 2) Date: 07-Mar-2005 From: Tom Kun < tpk0005 at unt.edu > Subject: Pittsburgh and Dallas Accents -------------------------Message 1 ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:05:49 From: Tonio Green < toniogreen at web.de > Subject: Australian A-Lengthening Hello, Can anyone confirm or deny the existence of a "lengthened short a" in Australian English, in particular an apparent phonemic split between short [ae] in 'lad', 'can' (modal verb) and [ae:] in 'bad', 'can' (noun)? If real, this is of course strongly reminiscent of the distinction between lax and tense [ae] in New York City. J. C. Wells' "Accents of English" only mentions lengthening of [ae] in monosyllables in Australian, which can be maintained when class 2 suffixes are added, allowing for pairs like h[ae]mmer 'mallet-like tool' vs. h[ae:]mmer 'one who hams', but says nothing about a c[ae]n/c[ae:n] contrast. Are there any Australians here who have contrasts like c[ae]n/c[ae:n] or l[ae]d/b[ae:d]? Has anything been published about this? Thanks in advance! -- Tonio Green Linguistic Field(s): Phonetics Phonology -------------------------Message 2 ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:05:53 From: Tom Kun < tpk0005 at unt.edu > Subject: Pittsburgh and Dallas Accents I'm not a ''linguist'' as such, that is, I don't have a degree, but I'm a bit of an accent enthusiast who reads lots of linguistic research papers and listens to how people pronounce words. I also run a website about regional accents at: http://students.csci.unt.edu/~kun I actually have two questions. The first is about some seemingly conflicting data about a city I've never been in: Pittsburgh. The Atlas of North American English (ANAE) shows that, as in Canada, /o/ and /oh/ (cot and caught) are merged in low-back-rounded position. Unlike in the Canadian Shift, their subjects in Pittsburgh also had /^/ lowered into low-central position, and this is supposed to be blocking /ae/ from lowering. However, I also read a recent paper abstract by Corrine McCarthy ( http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/nwav33/files/162.pdf ) which claims that the glide deletion of /aw/ (as in ''dahntahn'') was blocking the /ae/-retraction. She did a study of Pittsburgh and found that as /aw/-monophthongization recedes, /ae/-retraction was occuring. So, does this have any effect on /^/-lowering? My second question is about the city where I live, Dallas. Like I said before, I like to listen to people and notice how they pronounce vowels, and I think I'm hearing the beginnings of the Canadian Shift down here. Pronouncing /o/ as a low back rounded vowel was a traditional Southern feature, and younger speakers here still do this. A few weeks ago this girl was saying ''pond'' and I thought she was saying ''pawn.'' (I'm from Ohio). Well, I am also noticing some /ae/-retraction here. I have a theory about this, but since I don't have any degrees in linguistics, I don't want to put it on my website until someone with some credentials tells me I'm on the right track. My theory is that glide deletion of /ay/, the first stage of the Southern Shift, was blocking the /ae/ retraction, since it was pronounced in low central position. As the salient Southern accent features recede in this city, /ay/ is becoming diphthongal again, thus providing a space for /ae/ to fall into--just like in Canada. So am I on the right track here? Linguistic Field(s): Phonology Sociolinguistics ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-669 --- end forwarded text From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:51:27 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:51:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Charley Horse" In-Reply-To: <34058.69.142.143.59.1110232897.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: The earliest previously known usage of "Charley horse," I believe, was 29 Aug. 1886 found by Sam Clements. Charley horse (OED 1888) 1886 _Boston Globe_ 17 July 5 Several years ago, says the Chicago Tribune, Joe Quest, now of the Athletics, gave the name of "Charlie horse" to a peculiar contraction and hardening of the muscles and tendons of the thigh, to which base ball players are especially liable from the sudden starting and stopping in chasing balls, as well as the frequent slides in base running. Pfetlor, Anson and Kelly are so badly troubled with "Charley horse" there are times they can scarcely walk. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 04:41:33 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:41:33 EST Subject: Boston Globe: No "hot dog"? Second "basket ball" Message-ID: 1. _MEXICAN AFFAIRS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=536515472&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clien tId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 16, 1872. p. 5 (1 page) (No "Hot dog" in any of these??--ed.) ... 2. _TWELVE DOG TALES.; Attacked by Seven Savage Dogs. Senator Cameron's Dog a Nuisance. Little Johnny on Dogs. Astonishing the Dogs. Dogs as Watchmen. How to Deal With Dog Bites. A Dog's Services Officially Recognized. A Howling Dog Saves a Life. The Newspaper Dog. Two Hounds Kill and Eat a Horse. A Dog That Attempted Suicide. What a Dog's Tail is Good For. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=548209892&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. Feb 8, 1883. p. 3 (1 page) ... 3. _Showing How Children "Catch On."_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=563501152&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 27, 1887. p. 18 (1 page) ... 4. _COLLECTING BADGES.; Thousands of Wheelmen in Washington--Smooth Pavements Are Hard and They Are Having a Good Time. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=568382302&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) G S HOWARD. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1892. p. 2 (1 page) ...... 5. _AMONG THE FIREMEN.; State Firemen's Association Will Meet at Gloucester, Oct. 11, 12 and 13-- Objections Made to the Date and Place of the League Meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=568756422&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65 882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 11, 1893. p. 26 (1 page) ... 6. _OUT INTO THE STREETS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=570039102&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1893. p. 6 (1 page) ... 7. _CASE DISMISSED.; Charge Against Sheehan Not Sustained. Order Received in Stastions With Great Joy. Commissioners Divided on the Matter. Whast Gen Masrtin Has to Say About Verdict. How Police and Public View the Entire Subject. GEN MARTIN'S OPINIONS. He Talks Freely in Regard to Case of Sergt Sheehan. WHAT OTHERS THINK. Different Opinions of Officers and Men Around Town. GREENTED WITH CHEERS. Officers of Division 4 Receive the Good News with Jov. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=570435502&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Aug 8, 1894. p. 1 (2 pages) ... ... ... BASKETBALL ... (OED) 1892 _J. NAISMITH_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-n.html#j-naismith) in Triangle (U.S.) Jan. 144 (heading) Basket Ball. We present to our readers a new game of ball. 1893 Birkenhead News 9 Dec. 7/5 Interesting Basket-Ball Match. 1898 Daily News 8 June 5/2 Vassar, Syracuse, Cornell, Wellesley, and Rosemary Hall have each their teams of girl basket-ball players. 1901 Westm. Gaz. 1 May 7/1 A game of ‘basket ball’, played by ten over-heated and dishevelled ladies A bloomers! 1926 Encycl. Brit. New Suppl. I. 337/2 Basketball has become the national indoor game of the United States. ... ... _STUDENTS' CONFERENCES.; Religious Addresses and Discussions and Basket Ball. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568368862&SrchMode=1&sid=37&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110255922&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 8, 1892. p. 3 (1 page) The students spent the afternoon in athletic sports of various kinds, among which the new game of basket ball is popular. From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 05:12:21 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:12:21 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: This line is widely associated with Ronald Reagan. A 8/13/86 NYT report of a Reagan news conference reports him saying: "I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." A June, 1978 book review from the WSJ quotes a recent book by George Will as listing these statements as "the three least credible sentences in the English language." But on the Web, some people report that the "I'm from the government" line goes back to the 60's. Can anybody locate (or does anybody know of) an earlier source for this? Geoff Nunberg From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 05:56:31 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:31 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2005, at 9:12 PM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > ...The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT > article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the > check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as > I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." ... indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different "I won't come in your mouth". (i never really understood the force of #3, but then i'm not your average informant on these things.) arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 06:18:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:18:28 EST Subject: Angry Lobster & Firecracker Applesauce & Drunken Donuts Message-ID: ANGRY LOBSTER--574 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits FIRECRACKER APPLESAUCE--90 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN DONUTS--296 Google hits, 32 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN DOUGHNUTS--66 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits ... I like to go to nice restaurants on Monday, when the crowd is thinnest. Last Monday, I tried Vong. Today, I was going to try David Burke & Donatella. (I'd been to Donatella's Ama and Bellini restaurants). However, I took a look at the menu, and it was quite expensive, and there wasn't anything I was interested in eating. ... The "Angry Lobster" caught my eye--so to speak. And "Drunken Donuts"? This is the "New American" cuisine? ... I'm at home and don't have FACTIVA handy. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _davidburke & donatella - NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus ..._ (http://www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182) ... We shared the angry lobster which lived up to it's reputation of being the best lobster in the city and the tuna & salmon with caviar on top was great as well. ... www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails. asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182 - 58k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qIwjsyy1BMkJ:www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 ) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182) ... _New York Post Online Edition: food_ (http://www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm) ... Diners at new Davidburke & Donatella naturally ask what "crisp and angry lobster cocktail" is; waiters quickly inform you that the cranky crustacean is mounted ... www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm) ... _Time Out New York Eating & Drinking Guide Online_ (http://eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448.eat.critics.php) ... Burke serves his "angry lobster" on a bed of nails (that's right; actual nails poke out of the platter), stands his Bronx-style filet mignon upright on the ... eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448.eat.critics.php - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TkvnGu5v6wgJ:eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448 .eat.critics.php+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articl es/448.eat.critics.php) ... _NapaStyle | Angry Lobster with White Beans_ (http://www.napastyle.com/kitchen/recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115) Angry Lobster with White Beans. print this recipe. email this recipe to a friend. (Serves 4) For the beans: 1 cup dry large white beans ... www.napastyle.com/kitchen/ recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115 - 39k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-sc87lEpuAkJ:www.napastyle.com/kitchen/r ecipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.napastyle.com/kitchen/recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115) ... _Smith & Wollensky in Chicago - Metromix_ (http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds) ... Seating, 450 booth, banquette, table and bar seats. Smoking, Designated areas. Specialties, Dry-aged beef, crackling pork shank, angry lobster and drunkin' donuts ... metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/ 30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds - 61k - Mar 6, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tT2N1u9n-2wJ:metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-di ning_top_heds+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:metromix.chicagotribune.com/dini ng/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds) ... _F. Illi Ponte Ristorante - NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus ..._ (http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996) ... Service, Value, Atmosphere, Posted by NY on 12/19/2003 The Angry Lobster. ... The Famous "Angry Lobster" is FANTASTIC and I highly recomend it to any lobster fan. ... www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails. asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996 - 60k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vwrFYsz7T08J:www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996+"angry+lobster "&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&res taurantid=1996) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSP < 3. _Restaurants; Where the gimmicks never end, from Amazon fish ribs to firecracker applesauce. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=115989648&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110261 126&clientId=65882) Ruth Reichl. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1996. p. C33 (1 page) The whipped potatoes, which the chef and partner, David Burke, made famous at Park Avenue Cafe, taste more of olive oil than potatoes, and the hashed browns are dry and overcooked. (...) The entrees to avoid are the silly monkfish Wellington, a piece of nearly tasteless fish topped with mushrooms and wrapped in soggy pastry, and the "angry" lobster. Half a five-pound lobster dusted with peppery flour and sauteed with sliced garlic is a lot to wrestle with. Unlike the similar sauteed lobster at F.illi Ponte in TriBeCa, this one is so tough it made me wonder if the beast had been cooked twice. If you want lobster here, it's much better to have it steamed. ... End the meal with drunkedn doughnuts. It's another gimmick, but it's charming. The waiter arrives shaking a pristine white paper bag. He opens it at the table, pours warm twists of sugar-dusted dough onto a plate and sets down three pots of liquor-laced jam. The combination is irresistible. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Doughnuts: Not Just for Breakfast ..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,994425,00.html) ... Pastry chefs are now filling their after-dinner menus with doughnuts and fritters fresh from the fryer, like the Drunken Doughnuts at New York City's Maloney ... www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,994425,00.html - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.time.com/time/ar chive/preview/0,10987,994425,00.html) ... _addyourown: Maloney & Porcelli, Midtown, Manhattan restaurants_ (http://www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1) ... Tell a friend about Maloney & Porcelli Review: Features "drunken doughnuts", doughnuts filled with liquor. Edit this review - add your own comments! ... www.addyourown.com/restaurant. php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1 - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hmfvhZ_wM04J:www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1+"drunken+doughnuts"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 06:29:39 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:29:39 -0500 Subject: shindig Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:17:12 -0500, Michael McKernan wrote: >I evidently missed the previous post on 'shindig' but if it matters to >anyone, I have the following citation handy: > >Saturday, December 21, 1878 Rochester Indiana The Rochester Sentinel >> Last week a shindig was given at Widow DICKERHOFF's in honor of one >>NEAISWANGER... >http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape >rs%201878.htm > >If I have this, without ever having looked for it (before), surely someone >else has found something earlier...please let me know, since I don't have >any of the standard references handy. OED2 has an 1871 cite from Bret Harte for the 'country dance' sense. (There's an obsolete sense, 'a blow on the shins', attested in 1859.) But the American Periodical Series takes it back at least to 1848: ---- 1848 _The John-Donkey_ 14 Oct. 111/2 She desired to have a shin-dig, or dress ball, for the benefit of herself and the juvenile Mahoneys. ---- MW11 dates it to 1842. --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 8 06:33:33 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:33:33 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <3e38801031e86d3a19780a645f85746d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love >you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different >"I won't come in your mouth". I've heard the same ones, and I'm sure all four before 1970. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Tue Mar 8 06:34:14 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:34:14 -0600 Subject: Paris Hilton'd Message-ID: Durst sues Web sites over porn images Knight Ridder Newspapers Mar. 7, 2005 05:40 PM We knew if we lived long enough, there'd come a day when we might actually understand something Fred Durst did or said. Like a lawsuit. The Limp Bizkit frontman is suing a slew of Web sites for posting clips and stills from a graphic home-made porn vid in which he starred. Rock Dude was Paris Hilton'd last month by the same fiendish evildoer who infiltrated her cell phone - the vid was hacked from his home computer. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 06:39:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:39:08 EST Subject: shindig Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:30:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: MW11 dates it to 1842. --Ben Zimmer Probably from me. See the old ADS-L archives. (Sigh.) ... Barry Popik From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 13:22:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 05:22:20 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > > > >: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >: less common on campus. > >I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >something that's really in active use *now*. > even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if that's pass� already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old informant, home on spring break... Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke weed". Larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 8 14:42:06 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:42:06 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter : Connie Eble reports: :: I'll ask my students. But my feeling is that dope is used today as :: much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to :: drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple :: of years. : Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may : create additional discord. *But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, or presumably 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /excellent/). (I made all my homonyms homographs just to make it visual, as well.) Incidentally--when i mentioned Nick at Nite earlier, i was thinking mainly of shows like Dragnet--i know it's in syndication, but i'm not sure if Nickelodeon shows it. Seems the kind of thing that would show up there, though, especially in the second half of the time block. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Mar 8 14:40:19 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:40:19 -0500 Subject: shindig In-Reply-To: <158.4c140354.2f5ea28c@aol.com> Message-ID: The citation backing our 1842 date comes from The New York Daily Express, May 10, 1842. For some strange reason the citation slip reports this quotation as having come from Mr. Barnhart and Mr. Metcalf's _America in So Many Words_, where the term is indeed treated, but, as far as I can see, this particular citation is not given. I'm sure that the quotation did in fact come from Mr. Popik, and will make sure that he gets the proper credit. By the way, wasn't there another 1960s rock and roll show called "Hullabaloo?" Course, I was just a kid then. Maybe I was confusing something else with Desi Arnaz' "Babalu." Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 8 Mar 2005, at 1:39, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:30:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > > MW11 dates it to 1842. > > --Ben Zimmer > > > Probably from me. See the old ADS-L archives. (Sigh.) > ... > Barry Popik From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 8 16:07:08 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:07:08 -0500 Subject: dope Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL ~~~~~~~~~~ I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say "I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:40:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:40:26 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:12:21 -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >This line is widely associated with Ronald Reagan. A 8/13/86 NYT >report of a Reagan news conference reports him saying: "I think you >all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the >English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" > >The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT >article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the >check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as >I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." A >June, 1978 book review from the WSJ quotes a recent book by George >Will as listing these statements as "the three least credible >sentences in the English language." > >But on the Web, some people report that the "I'm from the government" >line goes back to the 60's. Can anybody locate (or does anybody know >of) an earlier source for this? I can push it back to 1976 on Newspaperarchive, but the earliest cite is still attributed to George Will. And considering how close Will was to Reagan, I'd guess that's where Reagan got the line too... ----- (Frederick, Md.) News, July 19, 1976, p. 4 "Why Do Fewer Voters Care" by William Burleigh The American condition, columnist George Will told a group not long ago, can be summed up in three sentences we're hearing these days: "Your check is in the mail." "I will respect you as much in the morning." "I am from the government and I am here to help you." ----- Lincoln (Neb.) Star, Feb. 16, 1977, p. 18 "It's Your Money" by Jane Bryant Quinn The old gag says there are three statements you should never believe: "The check is in the mail," "I'll love you just as much in the morning," and "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you." ----- --Ben Zimmer From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 8 16:45:42 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: dope Message-ID: What about mary jane? That's pretty passe', isn't it? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 at 11:07 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: dope >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the >"poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:53:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:53:51 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <3e38801031e86d3a19780a645f85746d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: And then there's the "Polish" take on the matter: What are the two biggest lies in Poland? "The check is in your mouth" and "I won't come in the mail". Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:55:52 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:55:52 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050308012835.03002080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2005, at 10:33 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love >> you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different >> "I won't come in your mouth". > > I've heard the same ones, and I'm sure all four before 1970. the three i reported were a standing joke in my circle in my college days (1958-62). the government one i noticed much later, by at least a decade and maybe more. arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 17:34:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: <422DB9BE.7030900@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0500 3/8/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter >: Connie Eble reports: > >:: I'll ask my students. But my feeling is that dope is used today as >:: much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to >:: drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple >:: of years. > >: Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may >: create additional discord. > >*But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if >two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how >they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or >even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both >consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very >different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, maybe "cape" (promontory vs. cloak) is a better example, since the two "lead"s are only homographs, not homonyms > or >presumably 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /excellent/). > Yours is indeed the standard view (for good reason) within homonymy avoidance research, including a very useful book by Edna Rees Williams, _The Avoidance of Homonyms in English_ (Yale U. Press, 1944), that includes the observation that "Only when the words are alike in sound, when they are in common use in the same social and intellectual circles, when they perform the same syntactical functions in the language, within the same sphere of ideas, do they become subject to mutual confusion and conflict." The cases involving homonymically inspired word (or sense) loss are typically of this type, like Gilliéron's famous _gat_ ('rooster' vs. 'cat") case in SW France, _let_ ('allow'/ 'hinder'), _queen_ 'sovereign' vs. _quean_ 'harlot', _strait_/_straight_, _pale_ 'shovel'/pail, _an ear_ vs. _a neer_ 'kidney', etc. In cases of taboo avoidance, we seem to extend the boundaries of what counts as closely related, whence the downfall of "cock", "ass", "coney", etc.--and, more recently, even "niggardly". Then of course there are those (typically evaluative) cases in which homonymy is exploited, and confusion is courted rather than avoided--"bad", "stupid", perhaps "gay". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 17:35:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:35:54 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how passé can it be? L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 8 17:57:46 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:57:46 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >>Jonathan Lighter writes: >> >>What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >>"Grass." >> >>JL >>~~~~~~~~~~ >>I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >>different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." >> Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >>"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >>It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >>to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >>A. Murie >> >Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how passé can it be? > >L ~~~~~~~~~ Sorry. You've lost me there. I know what it means in general but not in capitalized particular! AM From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 18:11:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:11:08 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:57 PM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: > >At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >>>Jonathan Lighter writes: >>> >>>What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >>>"Grass." >>> >>>JL >>>~~~~~~~~~~ >>>I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >>>different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." >>> Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >>>"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >>>It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >>>to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >>>A. Murie >>> >>Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how passé can it be? >> >>L >~~~~~~~~~ >Sorry. You've lost me there. I know what it means in general but not in >capitalized particular! >AM I'm referring to Cecil Adams's very useful, enjoyable, and almost always reliable column (in the Chicago Reader) and web resource, http://www.straightdope.com/, with searchable archives and other fun stuff. Sorry if I was too cryptic; the above web site has come up a lot in previous discussions here, so I didn't elaborate. Larry From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 18:28:56 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:28:56 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way about other languages too). He looks for meaning differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he says exactly what he means. For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally because he really means 'because'. He's also driven himself a little batty looking for the meaning difference between 'that' and 'which'. I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 18:52:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:52:42 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308182856.93371.qmail@web20426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0800 3/8/05, Ed Keer wrote: >The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >about other languages too). He looks for meaning >differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >says exactly what he means. > >For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >himself a little batty looking for the meaning >difference between 'that' and 'which'. > >I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > Like the homonymy issue, it depends on how narrowly you cast your net. The claim (which I associate with Michel Bréal and Dwight Bolinger, but I'm sure there are there others over the decades who have taken similar positions) is that there is no true/complete synonymy, if this is defined not just to take into account sameness of truth-conditional or literal meaning but also identity in connotation, register, "quaintness", grammatical properties, etc., with the result that the two items, the putative synonyms, would be mutually substitutable for each other in all contexts without affecting meaning or "tone" in any way. So the example we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, "fridge" vs. "ice box" vs. "refrigerator", wouldn't be a counterexample, given their difference in register, even though they all have the same referential meaning and arguably the same sense. The idea is that each word must earn its keep in the (mental) lexicon or it will disappear; Bréal (in the late 1890s) posited a "law of differentiation" that dictated that the meaning or use conditions on one of the synonyms (resulting from the adoption of a loanword, for example) will shift, so synonymy will no longer obtain; he gives examples like "animal" vs. "beast" vs. "deer" (orig. = 'animal'). The "Avoid Synonymy" principle, so named by Paul Kiparsky in the early 1980s, also applies to the meanings of affixed terms; the result is only one word per meaning slot. This can be (and has been) seen as a reflex of a more general "Elsewhere Principle" that Kiparsky traces back to the great Sanskrit grammarian Panini. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 21:21:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:21:58 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:40:26 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >----- >(Frederick, Md.) News, July 19, 1976, p. 4 >"Why Do Fewer Voters Care" by William Burleigh >The American condition, columnist George Will told a group not long ago, >can be summed up in three sentences we're hearing these days: >"Your check is in the mail." >"I will respect you as much in the morning." >"I am from the government and I am here to help you." >----- A slightly earlier cite, with an attribution from the other end of the political spectrum: ----- (Zanesville, Ohio) Times Recorder, March 7, 1976, p. 4-A We like Sen. Edmund Muskie's list of the "three most commonly told lies." The first is "I put your check in the mail yesterday." Second is "I gave at the office." And third is "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you." ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 21:58:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:58:24 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" Message-ID: ----- http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ The good, the bad and the fugly A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- like guys with curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the golden age of bad looks? ----- The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to the early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been found? --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Mar 8 22:01:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:01:02 -0600 Subject: Salon on "fugly" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:58 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ > The good, the bad and the fugly > A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- > like guys with curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the > golden age of bad looks? > ----- > > The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" > dates to the early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than > the 1984 HDAS cite been found? > > When this post popped up, I happened to be looking at the blog "Go Fug Yourself: Fugly is the New Pretty" http://gofugyourself.typepad.com/go_fug_yourself/ Very catty commentary on celebrities who don't use much sense in dressing up for public appearances. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 8 22:06:23 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:06:23 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <33777.69.142.143.59.1110319104.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 04:58:24PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ > The good, the bad and the fugly > A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- like guys with > curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the golden age of bad looks? > ----- > > The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to the > early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been > found? Yes, there's a 1970 quote in _The F-Word_ from an Australian source. I think it's Australian at least--I can't find the source at the moment. Definitely non-US. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 8 22:09:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:09:00 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <33777.69.142.143.59.1110319104.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Esteemed? What a shame. Respectability at such a young age... Jesse's got an earlier cite for it in "F-Word," and I bet we could find more if we hit paper rather than databases. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 8, 2005, at 16:58, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > the esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to > the > early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been > found? From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 8 22:14:29 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:14:29 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <20050308220623.GA1378@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 17:06, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 04:58:24PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been >> found? > Yes, there's a 1970 quote in _The F-Word_ from an Australian > source. I think it's Australian at least--I can't find the > source at the moment. Definitely non-US. Pipped by the man himself. I'd like to see what Roly Sussex has on "fugly." In the article linked below he writes that he has a database of 10,000 citations for Americanisms; I can only imagine what he has for Australianisms. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3109 Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:42:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:42:24 -0800 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I get over 3,000 Google hits for "get the dope on" and nearly 9,000 for "dope sheet." (I get nearly 2,000 for "smokin' dope.") But as with "dope" (Coca-Cola), I imagine that the info-related terms are primarily used by senior citizens. I have a friend (70) who often uses "dope it out," though only a few hundred examples turn up on Google. Such cases support the point I made some years ago that once a slang term gains a foothold, it is not likely to have the stereotypical lifespan "measurable in weeks or months." Most all of these "dope" expressions (except the adjective) are about 100 years old or more. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: dope ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter writes: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL ~~~~~~~~~~ I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say "I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:49:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:49:10 -0800 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Maryjane" [sic] + "pot" = 132,000 Google hits. Many of these undoubtedly refer to the proper name "Maryjane," but that's a whole lotta hits! My students report that "Mary Jane" too is still in use on campus. And who am I to argue? JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: Re: dope ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What about mary jane? That's pretty passe', isn't it? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 at 11:07 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: dope >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the >"poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:59:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:59:17 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way about other languages too). He looks for meaning differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he says exactly what he means. For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally because he really means 'because'. He's also driven himself a little batty looking for the meaning difference between 'that' and 'which'. I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 9 00:05:37 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:05:37 -0500 Subject: Coochy-coo In-Reply-To: <422D7303.27594.513EBA9@localhost> Message-ID: Anybody know the etymology of "coochy" as in the "coochy-coochy-coo" traditionally said to the baby while chucking its chin or whatever? (My question does NOT refer to a hootchie-cootchie dancer, or to any sex organ!) Is this just a nonsense sound? Maybe baby-talk for "cutie" or something? Maybe from French or Gaelic or something? Anybody know what book to consult for this question? -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 00:26:29 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:26:29 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:59:17 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the >English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of >discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > >This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," >but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be >considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. The Chambers Dictionary (famed for its distinctly unhelpful definitions) has these entries: FURZE: whin or gorse. WHIN: gorse, furze. GORSE: furze or whin, a prickly papilionaceous shrub. [aha!] --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 00:57:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:57:11 -0500 Subject: Drunken Donuts; Fugly; Letter to the Editor of Tulsa World this time Message-ID: DRUNKEN DONUTS (continued) Maybe "drunken donuts" started here? (FACTIVA) FIRST: EATS NOT JUST FOR COPS RONALD B. LIEBER 227 words 23 December 1996 Fortune Magazine SPECIAL YEAR-END DOUBLE ISSUE/INVESTOR'S GUIDE 1997 32 Issue: DECEMBER 23, 1996 VOL. 134 NO. 12 English (Copyright 1996) Doughnuts have gone upscale. Don't worry, good old-fashioned varieties are still readily available at Dunkin' Donuts or Krispy Kreme. And the hosts at Lou Mitchell's in Chicago still serve the best doughnut holes on the planet, while beignets continue their reign at Cafe Du Monde in New Orleans. But now you can get Drunken Donuts (get it?) at Maloney & Porcelli, a new Manhattan steak house (not yet rated by Zagat), where the fritters are served with three kinds of liqueur-infused jam; at the French Laundry in Napa Valley, a dessert of doughnuts comes with "coffee"--a cup of rich frozen cappuccino pudding. All of the above are tasty and truly decadent. Just the way doughnuts should be. --Ronald B. Lieber -------------------------------------------------------------- FUGLY (continued) Some "fugly" from Factiva and Worldcat. "Truckin' fugly" appears to be American. (FACTIVA) And the winners are not happy. 104 words 10 May 2003 Courier-Mail 3 English (c) 2003 Queensland Newspapers Pty Ltd THEY are not as well known as the Logies, offer notoriety rather than prestige, and even their name lacks the dignity associated with Australia's night of nights. But organisers of the Queensland-based Fugly awards have handed them out anyway, honouring personalities in categories you won't see at the Logies. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: F'ugly, faint clues and cunning tales / Author(s): David, Scarlett Lynn. Year: 1982 Description: 138 leaves ; 29 cm. Language: English Note(s): Typescript./ Dissertation: Thesis (M.A.W.)--Washington University, 1982. Dept. of English. Responsibility: by Scarlett Lynn David. Material Type: Thesis/dissertation (deg); Fiction (fic); Manuscript (mss) Document Type: Book; Archival Material Entry: 19820726 Update: 20040102 Accession No: OCLC: 8630832 Database: WorldCat Title: Reviews : timely twosome. Author(s): Brannigan, Erin. Year: 1998 In: Dance Australia. no. 94 (Feb./Mar. 1998), p. 63. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Named Person: Stewart, Garry. Guerin, Lucy. Named Corp: One Extra Dance Theatre (Company) Note(s): Review of Remote, choreographed by Lucy Guerin, and Fugly, choreographed by Garry Stewart, performed by One Extra Company at Seymour Theatre Centre, November 1997. Document Type: Article Title: Nazis torture aliens underground Grinnell Author(s): Preston, Bryan. ; Lind, Gregg. Corp Author(s): Origamitron (Musical group) Publication: [Grinnell, Iowa :; Bryan P., Year: 2000 Description: 1 sound disc (42 min.) :; digital ;; 4 3/4 in. Language: English Contents: Molotov (theme) --; Like a hurricane of love /; Gregg Lind --; Fuck the dead (bit) --; Live seizure --; Yer mother's new car ;; Time is the enemy /; Gregg Lind --; ready.set.chaunce --; Cajun country car wreck --; Gastric revolution --; Personal space invasion /; Gregg Lind --; Fugly wattle bull --; Lovefeed --; Gobots on patrol in rural Guatemala. Author(s): McIntosh, Grizz. Corp Author(s): Grizzly Bear-with-me Press. Publication: Wayne, NE : Grizzly Bear-with-Me Media, Year: 2001 Description: 37 p. ; 22 cm. + 1 CD-ROM. Language: English Contents: The big $pending daydreams of a North American Grizz -- Virtuoso -- Ironclad lullaby -- Never a cowboy -- Motorvating -- The eleven miles between St. Edward and Genoa -- Moving 'til Monday -- Nickels in the well -- Truckin Fugly -- World is yellow -- Backseat Rita -- Cruising? -- Grease zerks and green apples: a fictional letter -- Heirlooms: a question of genetics -- West of the 100th meridian -- Oompunks and tailfins -- Ballad of Icarus -- Roots & all -- Schwartze -- Welcome to Nebraska -- Raging slab -- The last buffalo. -------------------------------------------------------------- LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF TULSA WORLD (OR, "BIG APPLE WHORE HOAX" DAILY NEWS) I'll let Gerald Cohen write this one. Of course, the mayor of New York City and some others could help me with this and get this guy's site off the web. But they promote it. (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City Letters to the editor are encouraged. Each letter must be signed and include an address and a telephone number where the writer can be reached during business hours. Addresses and phone numbers will not be published. Letters should be a maximum of 200 words to be considered for publication and may be edited for length, style and grammar. Letters should be addressed to Letters to the Editor, Tulsa World, Box 1770, Tulsa, Okla., 74102, or send e-mail to letters at tulsaworld.com. Author(s): McIntosh, Grizz. Corp Author(s): Grizzly Bear-with-me Press. Publication: Wayne, NE : Grizzly Bear-with-Me Media, Year: 2001 Description: 37 p. ; 22 cm. + 1 CD-ROM. Language: English Contents: The big $pending daydreams of a North American Grizz -- Virtuoso -- Ironclad lullaby -- Never a cowboy -- Motorvating -- The eleven miles between St. Edward and Genoa -- Moving 'til Monday -- Nickels in the well -- Truckin Fugly -- World is yellow -- Backseat Rita -- Cruising? -- Grease zerks and green apples: a fictional letter -- Heirlooms: a question of genetics -- West of the 100th meridian -- Oompunks and tailfins -- Ballad of Icarus -- Roots & all -- Schwartze -- Welcome to Nebraska -- Raging slab -- The last buffalo. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 01:50:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:50:54 -0500 Subject: "Here, there and Everywhere" (1826) Message-ID: Again, Google Answers made $2 more than a query here. Yes, Mark Twain coined this. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) Question: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=486954 Was "Here, There, and Everywhere." a popular expression before it became the title of a Beatles song? If yes, what is the origin of the phrase? FYI - I'm posting the same question re: "The Long and Winding Road." Answer: Greetings Whatda, The earliest instance I located of the words together in the order you cite is from Chapter 5 of Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer" published 130 years ago, in 1875: (...) (LITERATURE ONLINE) Shelley, Mary Wollstonecraft, 1797-1851 [Author Page] The Last Man (1826) 1087Kb The Last Man. By the Author of Frankenstein. In Three Volumes [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. III. [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER IX. [Durable URL for this text] ...at his feet. What to do we knew not---the breakers here, there, everywhere, encompassed us---they roared, and dashed, and flung their... Davis, Charles Augustus, 1795-1867 [Author Page] Letters of J. Downing, Major [pseud.], Downingville Militia, Second Brigade, to His Old Friend, Mr. Dwight, of the New York Daily Advertiser. (1834) 401Kb Letters of J. Downing, Major [pseud.], Downingville Militia, Second Brigade, to His Old Friend, Mr. Dwight, of the New York Daily Advertiser. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] LETTER XIX. [Durable URL for this text] ...that ain't the worst on't,' says I, `our money is here, there, and everywhere; and I don't see how we shall... Thomas, Frederick W. (Frederick William), 1806-1866 [Author Page] Clinton Bradshaw; or, The Adventures of a Lawyer, Volume 1 (1835) 636Kb Clinton Bradshaw; or, The Adventures of a Lawyer, volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER VI. [Durable URL for this text] ...study for your office; study as you walk the streets, here, there, everywhere. I do not mean that you should lose... Gore, Mrs. (Catherine Grace Frances), 1799-1861 [Author Page] Mrs. Armytage (1836) 975Kb Mrs. Armytage; or, Female Domination. By the Authoress of "Mothers and Daughters." In Three Volumes. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. I. [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER XII. [Durable URL for this text] ...the old borough; at the tag end of the poll, here, there, and everywhere! You understand me?" "Sir!" cried Reginald, in... Simms, William Gilmore, 1806-1870 [Author Page] Mellichampe: A Legend of the Santee, Volume 1 (1836) 488Kb Mellichampe: A Legend of the Santee, Volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER IV. [Durable URL for this text] ...parts lately, have you?" inquired Blonay. "Dang it, stranger, they're here, there, and everywhere: they're never long missing from any one... Morris, George Pope, 1802-1864 [Author Page] The Little Frenchman and His Water Lots, with Other Sketches of the Times (1839) 199Kb The Little Frenchman and His Water Lots, with Other Sketches of the Times [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] MR. BEVERLEY LEE. [Durable URL for this text] ...wonderful still, a sort of magical ubiquity, for he was here, there, and everywhere at the same time. At one moment... Stuart-Wortley, Emmeline, Lady, 1806-1855 [Author Page] Alphonzo Algarves (1841) 401Kb ALPHONZO ALGARVES. A PLAY IN FIVE ACTS. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT IV. [Durable URL for this text] Scene I. [Durable URL for this text] ...movement---) A winged Ubiquity---an Omnipresence--- Here, there, and everywhere!--- [Stage direction] ... Dickens, Charles, 1812-1870 [Author Page] Dombey and Son (1848) 2186Kb Dombey and Son. By Charles Dickens. With Illustrations by H. K. Browne [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): CHAPTER XXV. STRANGE NEWS OF UNCLE SOL. [Durable URL for this text] ...shipping, on the bank-side, up the river, down the river, here, there, everywhere, it went gleaming where men were thickest, like... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Mar 9 01:56:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:56:59 -0600 Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Dear Editor, The brothel story about New York City's nickname "The Big Apple" is a hoax. It has been circulated on the web, but there is not a shred of truth to it. None. Sincerely, Gerald Cohen, Ph.D. Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology, especially of British and American slang; author: Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple" (1991); a revised edition will appear in two years and include a detailed refutation of the brothel etymology.) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 office phone (secretary): (573) 341-4869 email: gcohen at umr.edu P.S. Independent scholar Barry Popik deserves great credit for his work on "The Big Apple." You may check out his website at barrypopik.com. (I have also published his contributions to the subject in several of my articles, and the revision of my book on this topic will be co-authored with him.) [in reference to:] (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:20:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:20:37 -0800 Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Is the "anatomical features" business the latest fantasy attached to this canard? JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Editor, The brothel story about New York City's nickname "The Big Apple" is a hoax. It has been circulated on the web, but there is not a shred of truth to it. None. Sincerely, Gerald Cohen, Ph.D. Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology, especially of British and American slang; author: Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple" (1991); a revised edition will appear in two years and include a detailed refutation of the brothel etymology.) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 office phone (secretary): (573) 341-4869 email: gcohen at umr.edu P.S. Independent scholar Barry Popik deserves great credit for his work on "The Big Apple." You may check out his website at barrypopik.com. (I have also published his contributions to the subject in several of my articles, and the revision of my book on this topic will be co-authored with him.) [in reference to:] (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Mar 9 02:41:40 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:41:40 -0500 Subject: dictionary entry for fugly Message-ID: For another treatment, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8, 1993, p 137), the quote from which has a slightly different take: Some sections of US society have their own specific vocabulary. Your fellow drinkers back at the bar, for instance. Are they students? Drop easily then into collegiate slang. They won't be drunk at the end of the evening, they'll be combooselated. The may be facement (handsome) or fugly (fat and ugly). Brian Lynch, "The bar code," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_ [Great Britain] (Nexis), Sept. 15, 1991, p 21 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:49:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:49:41 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) Message-ID: The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) Me, I say "your. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:51:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:51:24 -0800 Subject: dictionary entry for fugly In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Right, and BUFF (B-52 or other huge airplane) stands for "Big Ugly Fat Fellow." JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: dictionary entry for fugly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For another treatment, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8, 1993, p 137), the quote from which has a slightly different take: Some sections of US society have their own specific vocabulary. Your fellow drinkers back at the bar, for instance. Are they students? Drop easily then into collegiate slang. They won't be drunk at the end of the evening, they'll be combooselated. The may be facement (handsome) or fugly (fat and ugly). Brian Lynch, "The bar code," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_ [Great Britain] (Nexis), Sept. 15, 1991, p 21 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:32:09 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:32:09 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22your_guys's=22?= (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: <20050309024941.32899.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I checked to see how y’all’s was doing, vis a vis the google. Your all’s has 278,000 hits; y’all’s 22,900; yall’s 7,790. Might this suggest that “you” + “guys” is not as far along the lexicalization path as “yall”? But is on its way? The process may be not dissimilar to the acquisition of the tense system. When my older son was about 3 years old, many years ago, he produced the following utterances: I catched a bee fish. It didn’t bit. It didn’t bits. He then abandoned the linguist problem and finished what he wanted to say. Knowing where to put inflectional morphemes is tricky, either when acquiring your language, or when the language is changing. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) > > Me, I say "your. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 03:34:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:34:02 -0800 Subject: "Build" = prepare (something to eat) Message-ID: 2004 Jared Hess & Jerusha Hess Napoleon Dynamite (film) : I'll build her a cake or something. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 03:45:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:45:43 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Am not sure what you mean by "lexicalized" in this case. "Widespread," maybe? I don't recall hearing this before and have no idea of its social or geographical distribution. I certainly agree that novel forms such as this must develop or be adopted early in the individual's acquisition of English. And to survive into adulthood, they either must not be strongly discouraged by parents, or else they must be so common already that parents' corrections go unheeded. I'm much persuaded of the principle that novel grammatical forms created by children lie at the root of most all substantive grammatical change in language, including the disruption and loss of case endings, leveling of verbal moods, etc. It's the little tots who ruin language for the rest of us ! Had W. C. Fields been a linguist, he would have pointed this out 70 years ago ! JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22your_guys's=22?= (2nd person pl. poss.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I checked to see how y’all’s was doing, vis a vis the google. Your all’s has 278,000 hits; y’all’s 22,900; yall’s 7,790. Might this suggest that “you” + “guys” is not as far along the lexicalization path as “yall”? But is on its way? The process may be not dissimilar to the acquisition of the tense system. When my older son was about 3 years old, many years ago, he produced the following utterances: I catched a bee fish. It didn’t bit. It didn’t bits. He then abandoned the linguist problem and finished what he wanted to say. Knowing where to put inflectional morphemes is tricky, either when acquiring your language, or when the language is changing. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) > > Me, I say "your. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:46:04 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:46:04 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308235918.93169.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think synonymy isn’t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. “That” and “which” as well as “since’ and “because” are ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth attending to. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > > The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > > This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. > > JL > > Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I > have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there > is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way > about other languages too). He looks for meaning > differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he > says exactly what he means. > > For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally > because he really means 'because'. He's also driven > himself a little batty looking for the meaning > difference between 'that' and 'which'. > > I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy > in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what > that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 9 03:52:11 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:52:11 -0500 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: ADS-L'ers interested in science fiction may want to be among the first to know that we have just launched a new version of the OED's Science Fiction site. Here's an announcement we wrote up: For those interested: the Oxford English Dictionary Science Fiction project at http://www.jessesword.com/sf has been redesigned and relaunched. The biggest change is that the OED's database of citations of SF words is now made (mostly) available via the website. The OED does not usually make its work available in this way, but OED has agreed to publicly open up this part of its database to acknowledge the great contribution volunteers have made to this project. That means that if you contribute a cite, it's viewable by everyone. Here's a link with more information about the citations http://www.jessesword.com/sf/about_citations We are also adding quite a few new words: there is an internal list of pending words we have been maintaining and over the next few weeks many of those words will be moved to the main pages. This link: http://www.jessesword.com/sf/newest_adds takes you to a list of the most recent additions. We hope these changes make the site into more of a general resource for the vocabulary of SF, instead of just a catalogue of OED research needs. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 9 03:56:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:56:51 -0500 Subject: Americanized French Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 04:00:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:00:25 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think synonymy isn’t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. “That” and “which” as well as “since’ and “because” are ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth attending to. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > > The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > > This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. > > JL > > Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I > have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there > is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way > about other languages too). He looks for meaning > differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he > says exactly what he means. > > For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally > because he really means 'because'. He's also driven > himself a little batty looking for the meaning > difference between 'that' and 'which'. > > I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy > in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what > that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:58:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:58:48 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308235918.93169.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:59 PM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in >the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same >level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical >associations. > Don't we also want to force them to co-occur in the same idiolect? Since I don't use either "gorse" or "furze" in mine, let me bring up another pair which I've heard claimed (probably falsely) are complete synonyms, distinguished by geography: "hella" (on the West Coast) and "wicked" (in the Northeast). These are, by stipulation, synonyms, but if they're not used by the same speakers, they don't challenge the relevant non-synonymy generalization anymore than do "snow" and "neige". Of course it may be claimed that "hella" and "wicked" fail the "identical associations" anyway. But then "furze" sounds somehow friendlier to me than "gorse". Does that count? larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 04:05:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:05:22 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: On that day I became one of those speakers who use "gorse" and "furze" interchangeably. Because of this decision, they are now absolute synonyms. You need not thank me. (I never use "whin.") JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 3:59 PM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in >the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same >level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical >associations. > Don't we also want to force them to co-occur in the same idiolect? Since I don't use either "gorse" or "furze" in mine, let me bring up another pair which I've heard claimed (probably falsely) are complete synonyms, distinguished by geography: "hella" (on the West Coast) and "wicked" (in the Northeast). These are, by stipulation, synonyms, but if they're not used by the same speakers, they don't challenge the relevant non-synonymy generalization anymore than do "snow" and "neige". Of course it may be claimed that "hella" and "wicked" fail the "identical associations" anyway. But then "furze" sounds somehow friendlier to me than "gorse". Does that count? larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 04:40:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:40:44 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <20050308132221.33618.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:22 AM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I >know ! "Grass." > >JL Isn't "pot" sort of like "cool", a slang item that's evolved into the standard lexical item for that particular meaning while still retaining its colloquial status (as opposed to "marijuana")? I guess (although I didn't know it before David's post and my field research) "dope" turns out to be more like the other shorter-lived in-group labels that cycle through. I'm not sure whether "weed" is more like "pot" and "cool", or (more likely?) a formerly moribund item like "dope" that has been revived, for whatever reason. Could be there's a regional flavoring, and perhaps there are movies, TV shows, etc. that influence usage on this. Now I'm wondering which of the categories "grass" is in. For me, "weed" sounds dated (= stuck in a particular past time) in a way that "pot" and "grass" don't, but it's not just my daughter's datum that informs my knowledge of its revival. My son was in a dorm (oops, excuse me, residence hall) during his freshman year (2001) that is officially named Wilmarth Hall, but which is known informally as "Weedmart". L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Jonathan Lighter >> >> >> >>: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >>: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >>: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >>: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >>: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >>: less common on campus. >> >>I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >>nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >>thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >>something that's really in active use *now*. >> >even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if >that's passÈ already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old >informant, home on spring break... > >Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). >My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but >she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the >expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up >much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) > >She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, >but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke >weed". > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 05:09:27 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:09:27 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050309040025.73623.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think synonymy isn’t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. > “That” and “which” as well as “since’ and “because” are > ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of > either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a > sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the > distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for > you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth > attending to. > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." >> >> The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. >> >> This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. >> >> JL >> >> Ed Keer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Synonymy avoidance >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >> have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >> is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >> about other languages too). He looks for meaning >> differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >> says exactly what he means. >> >> For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >> because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >> himself a little batty looking for the meaning >> difference between 'that' and 'which'. >> >> I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >> in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >> that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 05:38:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:38:09 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: The OED entry for "ribbit" = 'sound made by a frog' gives a first cite of c1968 from the _Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour_ ("That's right. Ribit! I am. I am a frog"). There's a note from the Smothers Brothers program manager saying that he doubted that this was the first use of the word. In a discussion of "ribbit" on the alt.usage.english newsgroup, Donna Richoux found a reference online to a 1965 _Gilligan's Island_ episode with Mel Blanc voicing the character of "Ribbit the Frog"... ----- http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-599/epid-10123/ Gilligan's Island - Water, Water Everywhere Episode Number 14 First Aired January 2, 1965 Production Code 0714 Writer Tom Waldman & Frank Waldman Director Stanley Z. Cherry Guest Stars: Mel Blanc (as Ribbit the Frog (voice)) ----- --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 07:32:23 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:32:23 -0600 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations I had submitted, since they were listed in the text of the page. Any way to find out what I've submitted in the new format, short of pulling up each entry and checking individually? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 08:56:33 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:56:33 -0500 Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe Message-ID: Some Boston Globe items. "HOODLUMS." Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 9, 1872. p. 4 (1 page): The word is of California origin and was born in the columns of the Alta California, which paper first applied it to a set of roughs who apparently had no fear of man, God 0or the laws of the State; men who cared for nothing, respected nothing, and were generally destitute of all those better elements which distinguish men from beasts. Stock Exchange Slang. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 11, 1894. p. 31 (1 page) LANGUAGE OF THE STAGE.; Technical Terms of a Theater All Defined. Illusions of Modern Dramas and Methods by Which They Are Accomplished. Stage Carpenter and Property Man Are Rare Inventive Geniuses. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1894. p. 35 (1 page) SLAIVG OF THE CIRCUS MAN.; Jargon Which is Unintelligible to All but the Traveling Shewman. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 17, 1894. p. 3 (1 page): The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. They are in a line of business to catch every cant phrase going, and any new word which is only a local invention. To a circus man the manager or the head of any enterprise is always "the main guy," while those in subordinate positions are simply "guys." The tents are "tops" to the circus men, and they are sub divided into the "big top," the "animal top," the "kid top," the "candy top," and so on indefinitely. The side show, where the Circassian girls, fat women and other curiosities termed "freaks" are shown, is termed the "kid show," andthe man with the persuasive voice who seeks to entice people into the "kid show" is known as a "barker." The men who sell peanuts, red lemonade, palm leaf fans, animal and song books and concert tickets are known under the general term of "butchers," while that class of circus followers whose methods are outside the pale of the law, such as pickpockets, gamblers and short-change men, are either "crooks" or "grafters." To get a person's money without giving them any equivalent is "to turn them." A countryman is either a "Rube" (Reuben) or a "Jasper." Thus if a countryman went into a side show and was robbed of $10 there, a circus man would say: "The Rube went against the grafter in the kid top and got turned for 10 cases." From the combinations of the warning cry of "Hey" and the word Rube" comes the circus man's rallying cry of "Hey, Rube!" which is always sounded in times when a fight with outsiders is imminent. The cry of "Hey Rube!" has been in use among circus men for half a century or more, and in the old days it was often followed by bloodshed and even loss of life. Fights between circus men and outsiders are comparitcely rare today; however, and serious trouble seldom occurs, except in spasrsely settled regions of the south and west. The musicians with a circus are known as "wind-jammers," the canvasmen and other laborers are "razorbacks," while a man who drinks to excess is either a "lusher" or a "boozer." These last two expressions are not confined to circus men, but have been used largely and more commonly by them than by any other class. The distance from one town to another is always known as a "jump," and traveling is "jumping." A cricus that travels overland is known as "a red wagon show" in contradistinction to a show that travels by rail. The show ground is always called the "lot," and the dining tent, where most of the circus men get their meals, is the "camp." Horses are always stock," and the horse tents are the "stock pens." Then there are scores of technical terms desribing the work of the different performers, which, while hardly to be classed as slang in themselves, nevertheless add to the picturesqueness of the circus folks vocabulary. Thus, among acrobats there is the "understander," the middleman" and the "topmounter." AMong the riders there are rough riders, pad riders and bareback riders, and among the fun-makers there are "patter" or talking clowns, singing clowns and knock-abouts. A clown used to be called a "cackler" in the English circuses. The three-ring tents with their great size have knocked the aged patterclowns, common in the single rings in Tony Pastor's day, our of business. Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. The knockabout business has come up in consequence and the dude and Reuben clown meander among the audience, representing eccentric spectators not belonging to the show.--(Worcester American.) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:28:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:28:16 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and therefore have never been "revived." The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage enjoyed by the other terms. Having said that, I would emphasize that the death of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:22 AM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I >know ! "Grass." > >JL Isn't "pot" sort of like "cool", a slang item that's evolved into the standard lexical item for that particular meaning while still retaining its colloquial status (as opposed to "marijuana")? I guess (although I didn't know it before David's post and my field research) "dope" turns out to be more like the other shorter-lived in-group labels that cycle through. I'm not sure whether "weed" is more like "pot" and "cool", or (more likely?) a formerly moribund item like "dope" that has been revived, for whatever reason. Could be there's a regional flavoring, and perhaps there are movies, TV shows, etc. that influence usage on this. Now I'm wondering which of the categories "grass" is in. For me, "weed" sounds dated (= stuck in a particular past time) in a way that "pot" and "grass" don't, but it's not just my daughter's datum that informs my knowledge of its revival. My son was in a dorm (oops, excuse me, residence hall) during his freshman year (2001) that is officially named Wilmarth Hall, but which is known informally as "Weedmart". L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Jonathan Lighter >> >> >> >>: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >>: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >>: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >>: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >>: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >>: less common on campus. >> >>I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >>nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >>thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >>something that's really in active use *now*. >> >even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if >that's pass� already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old >informant, home on spring break... > >Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). >My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but >she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the >expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up >much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) > >She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, >but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke >weed". > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:35:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:35:57 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration that could result in a slowing of economic growth. Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think synonymy isn’t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. > “That” and “which” as well as “since’ and “because” are > ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of > either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a > sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the > distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for > you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth > attending to. > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." >> >> The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. >> >> This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. >> >> JL >> >> Ed Keer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Synonymy avoidance >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >> have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >> is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >> about other languages too). He looks for meaning >> differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >> says exactly what he means. >> >> For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >> because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >> himself a little batty looking for the meaning >> difference between 'that' and 'which'. >> >> I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >> in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >> that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:40:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:40:36 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The OED entry for "ribbit" = 'sound made by a frog' gives a first cite of c1968 from the _Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour_ ("That's right. Ribit! I am. I am a frog"). There's a note from the Smothers Brothers program manager saying that he doubted that this was the first use of the word. In a discussion of "ribbit" on the alt.usage.english newsgroup, Donna Richoux found a reference online to a 1965 _Gilligan's Island_ episode with Mel Blanc voicing the character of "Ribbit the Frog"... ----- http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-599/epid-10123/ Gilligan's Island - Water, Water Everywhere Episode Number 14 First Aired January 2, 1965 Production Code 0714 Writer Tom Waldman & Frank Waldman Director Stanley Z. Cherry Guest Stars: Mel Blanc (as Ribbit the Frog (voice)) ----- --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:43:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:43:55 -0800 Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe Message-ID: Thanks, Barry. Good post. I have no access to ProQuest etc., so anything you unearth on slang is very much appreciated. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Boston Globe items. "HOODLUMS." Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 9, 1872. p. 4 (1 page): The word is of California origin and was born in the columns of the Alta California, which paper first applied it to a set of roughs who apparently had no fear of man, God 0or the laws of the State; men who cared for nothing, respected nothing, and were generally destitute of all those better elements which distinguish men from beasts. Stock Exchange Slang. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 11, 1894. p. 31 (1 page) LANGUAGE OF THE STAGE.; Technical Terms of a Theater All Defined. Illusions of Modern Dramas and Methods by Which They Are Accomplished. Stage Carpenter and Property Man Are Rare Inventive Geniuses. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1894. p. 35 (1 page) SLAIVG OF THE CIRCUS MAN.; Jargon Which is Unintelligible to All but the Traveling Shewman. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 17, 1894. p. 3 (1 page): The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. They are in a line of business to catch every cant phrase going, and any new word which is only a local invention. To a circus man the manager or the head of any enterprise is always "the main guy," while those in subordinate positions are simply "guys." The tents are "tops" to the circus men, and they are sub divided into the "big top," the "animal top," the "kid top," the "candy top," and so on indefinitely. The side show, where the Circassian girls, fat women and other curiosities termed "freaks" are shown, is termed the "kid show," andthe man with the persuasive voice who seeks to entice people into the "kid show" is known as a "barker." The men who sell peanuts, red lemonade, palm leaf fans, animal and song books and concert tickets are known under the general term of "butchers," while that class of circus followers whose methods are outside the pale of the law, such as pickpockets, gamblers and short-change men, are either "crooks" or "grafters." To get a person's money without giving them any equivalent is "to turn them." A countryman is either a "Rube" (Reuben) or a "Jasper." Thus if a countryman went into a side show and was robbed of $10 there, a circus man would say: "The Rube went against the grafter in the kid top and got turned for 10 cases." From the combinations of the warning cry of "Hey" and the word Rube" comes the circus man's rallying cry of "Hey, Rube!" which is always sounded in times when a fight with outsiders is imminent. The cry of "Hey Rube!" has been in use among circus men for half a century or more, and in the old days it was often followed by bloodshed and even loss of life. Fights between circus men and outsiders are comparitcely rare today; however, and serious trouble seldom occurs, except in spasrsely settled regions of the south and west. The musicians with a circus are known as "wind-jammers," the canvasmen and other laborers are "razorbacks," while a man who drinks to excess is either a "lusher" or a "boozer." These last two expressions are not confined to circus men, but have been used largely and more commonly by them than by any other class. The distance from one town to another is always known as a "jump," and traveling is "jumping." A cricus that travels overland is known as "a red wagon show" in contradistinction to a show that travels by rail. The show ground is always called the "lot," and the dining tent, where most of the circus men get their meals, is the "camp." Horses are always stock," and the horse tents are the "stock pens." Then there are scores of technical terms desribing the work of the different performers, which, while hardly to be classed as slang in themselves, nevertheless add to the picturesqueness of the circus folks vocabulary. Thus, among acrobats there is the "understander," the middleman" and the "topmounter." AMong the riders there are rough riders, pad riders and bareback riders, and among the fun-makers there are "patter" or talking clowns, singing clowns and knock-abouts. A clown used to be called a "cackler" in the English circuses. The three-ring tents with their great size have knocked the aged patterclowns, common in the single rings in Tony Pastor's day, our of business. Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. The knockabout business has come up in consequence and the dude and Reuben clown meander among the audience, representing eccentric spectators not belonging to the show.--(Worcester American.) --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 9 13:01:31 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:01:31 -0500 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3E2C@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 01:32:23AM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations > I had submitted, since they were listed in the text of the > page. Any way to find out what I've submitted in the new > format, short of pulling up each entry and checking > individually? Wait a few days, when I add search capabilities to the Comment field? Sorry, it was too cumbersome to list the entire content of everything. JTS From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Mar 9 14:23:19 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:23:19 -0500 Subject: track ways we use language? In-Reply-To: <200503081757318.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: hey, this might be interesting . . . click on http://wordcount.org/main.php WordCount™ is an interactive presentation of the 86,800 most frequently used English words. WordCount tracks the way we use language. QueryCount™ tracks the way we use WordCount. best, karen ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 14:26:45 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:26:45 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <20050309122816.85620.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about "bush"? I learned this word for MJ from a man who picked up the word (along with "bushhead") while in the Army between WWI and WWII. It seems with the current president, this term would naturally revive. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary > persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," > and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and > therefore have never been "revived." > > The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites > of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly > moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" > did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage > enjoyed by the other terms. > > Having said that, I would emphasize that the death > of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. > > JL James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Mar 9 14:27:11 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:27:11 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn > At 9:42 AM -0500 3/8/05, David Bowie wrote: >>*But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if >>two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how >>they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or >>even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both >>consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very >>different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, > maybe "cape" (promontory vs. cloak) is a better example, since the > two "lead"s are only homographs, not homonyms Sorry, you're right, i messed up--i got so carried away with everything else being homographic that i wrote 'lead' /give direction/ when i *should* have written 'led' /gave direction/, which is homophonic but not homographic with 'lead' /metal/. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 14:33:12 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:33:12 -0500 Subject: Americanized French In-Reply-To: <422E7403.1090800@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > Just heard Martin Short pronounce "soupcon" as "soop-sone" on L&W:SUV. > Well, given that the character was a pretentious poseur from Montreal, I wouldn't read too much into that. AF -- Alice Faber From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 15:35:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:35:00 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: So "MJ" is alive and well too. Google turns up a handful of textual exx. of "bush," marijuana, some of them punning the Prez's name. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about "bush"? I learned this word for MJ from a man who picked up the word (along with "bushhead") while in the Army between WWI and WWII. It seems with the current president, this term would naturally revive. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary > persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," > and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and > therefore have never been "revived." > > The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites > of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly > moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" > did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage > enjoyed by the other terms. > > Having said that, I would emphasize that the death > of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. > > JL James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 15:53:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:53:37 -0600 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 01:32:23AM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > > The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations I had > > submitted, since they were listed in the text of the page. > Any way to > > find out what I've submitted in the new format, short of pulling up > > each entry and checking individually? > > Wait a few days, when I add search capabilities to the Comment field? > > Sorry, it was too cumbersome to list the entire content of everything. > > JTS > No need to apologize. The new pages offer an improved look and more info available. Searching the comments field would make it even better. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 15:58:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:58:04 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Not to mention that switching would require that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready to report to field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the > BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > Jim > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > JL > > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 16:18:05 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:18:05 -0600 Subject: astroturf Message-ID: The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National League is now free of artificial grass: http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php "As you know, "Astroturf" entered the language as a generic term for all artificial playing surfaces. It used to rile Dad tremendously when cheaper, inferior quality imitiations of Astroturf were installed in other stadiums and were commonly called "astroturf". He hated to see the product get a black eye in public relations when football and baseball players would injure themselves, or the ball would bounce funny, and blame the "astroturf" surface. "It's that lousy Polyturf causing that trouble, damn it, not Astroturf!" Not sure who made Polyturf -- possibly arch-rival DuPont (the name was almost swear-word in our house during Dad's Monsanto days....)" From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 16:35:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:35:51 -0600 Subject: Doctor Demento Message-ID: Slangophiles and others may be interested that the archives of the Dr. Demento radio show are going online: http://www.thedoctordementoshow.com/index.php From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Mar 9 17:05:18 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <200503090818347.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an aggregator. Karen Ellis >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National >League is now free of artificial grass: > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 17:26:13 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:26:13 -0600 Subject: correction Re: astroturf Message-ID: ????? I don't understand the distinction. Looks like a blog, walks like a blog, quacks like a blog . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Educational > CyberPlayGround > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:05 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: correction Re: astroturf > > > This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an > aggregator. > > Karen Ellis > > >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National > >League is now free of artificial grass: > > > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 18:46:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:46:18 -0600 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project Message-ID: Malcom's stuff first, then Jeff's below that. SF Fandom > > fannish (not in OED; OED SF database has 1948) "BOY HOWDY!' > W. Leslie Rawlings, The Atlanta Constitution, Apr 26, 1919; > pg. 12/4 "There's nobody on earth who can appeal to the > American people more than a fan, be he fannish on baseball, > other sports, wars or trying to get a peace treaty signed, > and Europe cuddled into submission inside of a year." > > fan magazine (OED 1928) > "Playwrights Come Through" The Washington Post; Jul 28, 1918; > pg. TA3/4 "It is probable that the book which will run from > 25,000 to 40,000 words, will be put out by a New York > publishing house, and after its appearance this fall, will > run as a serial in one of the "fan" magazines. " > > "The Lady Who Jilted Chaplin" Appleton [Wisconsin] Post > Crescent 1923-03-03 p. 3/4 "This entertaining "fan" magazine > will be ready next week." > > "On the Silver Screen" [Lincoln] Nebraska State Journal | > 1922-09-03 p. 25/2 "Inasmuch as Valentino is unquestionably > the film idol of 1922, getting about three-fourths of the fan > magazine mail, he may not be so far wrong in sitting down and > making comparisons." > > > fan club (OED 1941) > "ARE FANATICS ON FIRES." Chicago Daily Tribune; Oct 4, 1896; > pg. 29/3 "He hasn't pulled any more boxes, but his admiration > remains unchanged, and he is now a member of Truck No. 6's > "Fan club" over on Franklin street." > [same article] > "There is a "First Battalion Fan club" which is composed of a > number of wealthy men, admirer's of the fireman's life." > > fan base (OED 1979) > "This Morning: Soccer Club Owners Should Heed the Past" > Kenneth Denlinger The Washington Post; Jun 30, 1975; pg. D1/5 > "Many teams went to smaller fields -- the Diplomats to W.T. > Woodson High -- and patiently waited for their fan-base to increase." > > fan mail (OED 1924) > "Lights and Shadows" The Washington Post; Oct 24, 1920; pg. 49/6 > "Catherine Holly, who handles the fan mail, has called for additional interpreters." SF Criticism > > high fantasy (not in OED; OED SF project has 1973) > "Chantecler." The [London] Times, Tuesday, Feb 08, 1910; pg. > 11; col D "It is a work full of literary delights; of high > fantasy; of extraordinary virtuosity in versification ("de > l'acrobatisme!" was the comment of one veteran spectator in > my hearing); not seldom tending to the "showy" and > rhetorical; inspired by a genuine love and knowledge of > Nature, even in her most amusing secret places; fresh, > ingenious, and "amusing" as a spectacle; bristling with > literary satire, some of it rather recondite -- altogether an > extraordinary workd that none other than Rostand could have > imagined -- but too plainly deficient in the "body," the > conflict of wills, the continuous and cumulative interest of > action that are essential for an acted play." > > "GIRAUDOUX 'CHAILLOT' PRESENTED IN PARIS" By LANSING WARREN > New York Times; Dec 20, 1945; pg. 17/4 "But the imagination, > subtlety and high fantasy of the author had full rein in > flights which Giraudoux never surpassed." > > "Tales from Times Square" Dorothy Kilgallen, Lowell > [Massachusetts] Sun 1942-09-15 p. 49/1 "Lindsay and Crouse > are readying "Strip For Action," involving a burlesque troupe > marooned in an army camp (high fantasy since no burlesque > show has ever played an army camp) and the Shuberts are > preparing a legitmate vehicle for the reigning queen of the > stripsie-pipsies, Margie Hart." > > "The Play's The Thing" Chaffee Castleton [Van Nuys > California] Valley News | 1956-07-31 p. 26/4 "Everything > Disney does is either high fantasy or bears the stamp of > complete authenticity." > > post-apocalypse (adj.) (OED does not list, but has in a quote > from 1975 for "Warholian"; OED SF Project has 1976) "NOVELS" > Reviewed by James R. Frakes The Washington Post Book World > Oct 18, 1970; pg. 2/3 "The time is post-apocalypse; the > setting, the flats west of the city, a kind of terminal > chessboard where every space must be staked out." > > > dark fantasy (OED does not have; OED SF project has 1973) > "THE PLAY" By J. BROOKS ATKINSON. New York Times, Oct 26, > 1927; pg. 26/2 "Lord Dunsany has tinted it with the strange, > dark fantasy that distinguishes all his work." > > Note that the radio program "Dark Fantasy" is listed in the > radio listings in the Syracuse Herald Journal, June 12, 1942; > April 17, 1942; April 24, 1942; Charleroi [Pennsylvania] Mail > for November 14, 1941; December 05, 194; Reno Evening Gazette > May 21, 1942; in assorted Chicago Herald Tribune and NYTimes > listings from Nov 21, 1941 through Jun 12, 1942. > > science-fictive (OED SF Project has 1993; term is in OED, but > no cites, dates, quotes are given) "In Search Of the Self" By > ELIZABETH JANEWAY New York Times Book Review Oct 28, 1956; > section 7, p. 7/2 "Science-fictive effects give this weird > tale a speciously contemporary aspect, but what M.Vercors > wishes to establish is the old position that any > incommunicable personal experience is valueless just because > it is incommunicable." > > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; > pg. 19/5 "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, > shimmering with emerald-gold and silver fin." > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, 1937; > p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] > > science-fictiony > Tomorrow's Railroads in the Sky > RALPH STEIN > Los Angeles Times This Week Magazine; Feb 3, 1963; pg. 10/3 > "Perhaps, to get science-fictiony, the solution will be to > run monorails in cities high in the air with their tracks > leaping from the top of one skyscraper to the next, or even > through some of the higher ones since buildings > aren't all the same height." > > "Recommended New Titles" New York Times Book Review; Sep 4, > 1966; pg. 16/1 "Roar Lion Roar. Irvin Faust. (Avon, 60 > cents.) Ten urban fantasies that have aroused much critical > enthusiasm." > From pds at VISI.COM Wed Mar 9 20:22:14 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050309132949.3AE5EA46B@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my lifetime. It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" or something similar. --Tom Kysilko From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:33:27 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: Regarding "quack": I believe a duck in Chaucer's Parlement of Foules at one point intones a "quek." I'm not sure if the sound- change laws would render that as "quack" in modern English, but it sounds pretty close. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 9 Mar 2005, at 14:22, Tom Kysilko wrote: > Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > > > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > > What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to > the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I > learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". > "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my > lifetime. > > It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog > noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" > or something similar. > > --Tom Kysilko From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:43:19 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:43:19 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" Message-ID: Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 20:52:01 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the obvious association with "kneedeep"). dInIs Dennis >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Mar 9 20:53:13 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:53:13 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" Message-ID: You've got 14th century for quack as a verb, so you must have had something from this period. In any case, it does appear that quack is not suspiciously new - unlike oink and, especially, ribbet, which really seems to have come from nowhere. I don't recall ever hearing ribbet as a child in the sixties, but it was dominant by the late seventies. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Joanne M. Despres Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Middle English "quek" Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 20:58:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:58:59 -0600 Subject: psywar Message-ID: psywar OED has 1954 "Ancient Military Art of 'PW' Having Big Revival" By John G. Norris The Washington Post; Jul 8, 1951; pg. B3/2 "Air Force officers say its chief aim is to induce qualified civilians to volunteer for "Psywar" duty." " 'Psywar' Battle with Paper Weapons," New York Times; Nov 29, 1953; pg. SM78/2; quote from SM79/1 "Recently, in Exercise Falcon at Ft. Bragg, N. C. -- the "psywar" center for the Army -- leaflet techniques were tested by troops "defending" the U. S. and an unknown "agressor". " From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:58:01 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B82@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Oops, my mistake: "quek" and "quack" ARE treated as different words by the OED, which enters "quek" as an interjection with an example from the Parliament of Fowls (defining it, however, as the sound made by a goose). Joanne From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:42:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:42:13 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >obvious association with "kneedeep"). Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? ----- Atlanta Constitution, Feb 8, 1880, p. 2/3 Uncle Remus's Folk-Lore: Brer Fox and the Deceitful Frogs. XIV. "Den n'er Frog holler out: "'Knee deep! Knee deep!'" ----- Full text of the story here: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/Harris2/ch14.html And here is the Disneyfied rendition from _Song of the South_ (1946): ----- http://www.songofthesouth.net/movie/script/reel-1section-a.html MCU of Tempy and Johnny over Sally's shoulder. Tempy: "GRACIOUS GOODNESS, JOHNNY... WE'S ALMOST DAR! LISSEN! YOU AIN'T NEVER HEER'D NO FROGS LIKE DEM IN ATLANTA." John o.s.: "YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SAYING?" CUT TO: MCU of Sally and John. John: "KNEE-DEEP! KNEE-DEEP!" CUT TO: ECU of Johnny. Johnny: "HONEST!" John: "HONEST." Johnny: "KNEE-DEEP! KNEE-DEEP!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:56:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:56:19 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:42:13 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >>obvious association with "kneedeep"). > >Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? > >----- >Atlanta Constitution, Feb 8, 1880, p. 2/3 >Uncle Remus's Folk-Lore: Brer Fox and the Deceitful Frogs. XIV. >"Den n'er Frog holler out: >"'Knee deep! Knee deep!'" >----- > >Full text of the story here: >http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/Harris2/ch14.html Making of America takes it all the way back to 1832, though nothing as canonical as the Uncle Remus tale... ----- http://tinyurl.com/3sen7 New-England magazine, January 1832, p. 40 The woods of Virginia are so filled with the sounds of various birds and tree-frogs, (those delicate sylvans, that have a note clearer than a bird) that an old traveler calls it "a land of enchantment," where so many sweet sounds are emited by invisible songsters; he may, however, have been a little deluded by his admiration, as he affirms that some frogs "emit a most tremendous roar, louder than the bellowing of a bull, and with a striking resemblance to articulate words, as hogshead! tobacco! knee deep! ancle deep! deeper and deeper! Piankitank!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:57:01 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:57:01 -0500 Subject: shindig In-Reply-To: <20050309050117.D4DA2B252D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: >>>>> OED2 has an 1871 cite from Bret Harte for the 'country dance' sense. (There's an obsolete sense, 'a blow on the shins', attested in 1859.) But the American Periodical Series takes it back at least to 1848: <<<<< I would guess that the 'dance event' sense originated as a joking use of the 'blow to the shin' sense. It certainly describes my dancing style... -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:28:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:28:53 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I see the OED lacks "arf" entirely, though "bow-wow" (more or less) goes back to _The Tempest_ and beyond. JL Tom Kysilko wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Tom Kysilko Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my lifetime. It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" or something similar. --Tom Kysilko --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:32:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:32:53 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, ME "quek" became EModE "queck" and then "quack" - but OED has these as verbs only. Curious. JL "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joanne M. Despres" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding "quack": I believe a duck in Chaucer's Parlement of Foules at one point intones a "quek." I'm not sure if the sound- change laws would render that as "quack" in modern English, but it sounds pretty close. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 9 Mar 2005, at 14:22, Tom Kysilko wrote: > Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > > > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > > What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to > the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I > learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". > "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my > lifetime. > > It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog > noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" > or something similar. > > --Tom Kysilko __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:40:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:40:37 -0800 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered aquatic "friends": http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Middle English "quek" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You've got 14th century for quack as a verb, so you must have had something from this period. In any case, it does appear that quack is not suspiciously new - unlike oink and, especially, ribbet, which really seems to have come from nowhere. I don't recall ever hearing ribbet as a child in the sixties, but it was dominant by the late seventies. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Joanne M. Despres Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Middle English "quek" Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 00:58:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:58:09 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <20050309224037.48978.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:40 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered >aquatic "friends": > >http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March > >JL > Jon, Is that URL right, with the dashes and all? I couldn't get it to open. Looks like important research I don't want to miss out on. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 00:59:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:59:38 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2:22 PM -0600 3/9/05, Tom Kysilko wrote: >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the translator. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 01:03:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:03:22 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to the literature available when and where I was a child, bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs "chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." "Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. However, given that spacing between words was not the usual practice in antiquity, "bre ke ke kex ko ax ko ax" or any one of several other possible transliterations would be just as acceptable, IMO. But, as to how this croak might be translated, I have no idea. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:05:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:05:01 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > translator. i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:13:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:13:54 -0800 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Middle English "quek" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:40 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered >aquatic "friends": > >http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March > >JL > Jon, Is that URL right, with the dashes and all? I couldn't get it to open. Looks like important research I don't want to miss out on. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:15:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:15:46 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:03 PM -0500 3/9/05, Wilson Gray wrote: > >"Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's >frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. Come to think of it, that croaks truer than my earlier recollection. I yield to Wilson's elephantine memory for Aristophanese frog-talk. L From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 10 01:20:37 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:20:37 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1b0929b4542f3bc0cb8ba2b8126ccb8c@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 05:05:01PM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > >I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > >translator. > > i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. Yes, that's right. The transliteration from the Perseus edition is: "brekekekex koax koax". That version might be somewhere near: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0031;layout=;query=card%3D%238;loc=185 , but their "please use this form to link to the page" widget is not working properly. Anyway, for those not familiar with the Perseus project, it's a fantastic thing--Latin and Greek texts with every word parsed and linked to dictionaries, to statistical summaries of the word's use in various text, etc. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:22:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. All I can dredge up from my frog-deprived urban existence is a creaking baritonal "CROOOOOAK!!" The possibility that "ribbit" is the result of an unreported language shift within the frog community has not been addressed. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the literature available when and where I was a child, bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs "chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." "Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. However, given that spacing between words was not the usual practice in antiquity, "bre ke ke kex ko ax ko ax" or any one of several other possible transliterations would be just as acceptable, IMO. But, as to how this croak might be translated, I have no idea. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:25:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:25:50 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, the "koaxial" version is what I remember as well. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > translator. i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:51:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:51:53 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <20050310011354.86394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > And worth waiting for it was--quite the muckraking exposé. Brekekekekex indeed. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:59:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:59:16 -0500 Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... In-Reply-To: <20050310011354.86394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:13 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > On an eerily related note, here's some real-life research that tends to support the message underlying the above ditty: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1432991,00.html L From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Mar 10 02:27:39 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:27:39 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf Message-ID: A website is not a blog. you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto their website. Simply, It's about programming code. Learn how to make websites then you'll understand. visit the Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com Interent Area http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Internet/Home_Internet.html Very Interesting Sites Find How to Build Web Sites. best, karen At 12:26 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: correction Re: astroturf >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >????? > >I don't understand the distinction. Looks like a blog, walks like a >blog, quacks like a blog . . . > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Educational > > CyberPlayGround > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:05 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: correction Re: astroturf > > > > > > This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an > > aggregator. > > > > Karen Ellis > > > > >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National > > >League is now free of artificial grass: > > > > > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 02:31:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:31:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis Message-ID: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis (www.doubletongued.org) been quoted all over. Congratulations!...I discussed "gurgitator" and "short eats" (two recent Double-Tongued" food entries) here before...Remember why it loses money: MTA is ATM spelled backwards. http://www.nypress.com/18/10/pagetwo/newshole4.cfm PULITZER PRIZE FOR MATH The debate continues—who's stupider, New York Post readers or New York Post reporters? We're getting close to a draw with "Get a Fare Deal," the amazingly sad story published in the paper's March 2 edition. At first, it seemed like we had to be misreading the chart at the top of the article. What are the odds that any subway commuter who takes 12 rides a month would need a newspaper article to grasp that they don't need to buy a $76 monthly MetroCard? As it turns out, the Post assumes their readers are pretty damn moronic. Transit reporter Clemente Lisi takes the trouble to break things down even further for those who can't quite master simple multiplication. A commuter who takes 24 rides a month is better off buying two $20 MetroCards. A commuter who takes 42 rides a month is better off buying three $20 cards and a $10 card. And if the commuter has three apples and a murderous hoodlum takes two after putting a bullet in the commuter's head…well, we probably won't read about it in the Post unless the commuter was an aspiring white actress. Let's not give Lisi too much credit for all this deep thinking, though. As it turns out, Lisi is really just reprinting useless info that blogger Grant Barrett had put up on his website. Lisi claims that Barrett "crunched the numbers." If Barrett had posted that you can get four copies of the Post for a dollar in Manhattan, then Lisi would have probably claimed that Barrett "did the research." Meanwhile, we remain convinced that it's a good investment to spend $3.95 for a copy of SCREW to wrap around that Post you buy at the newsstand. Otherwise, people will think you're a cretin. —J.R. Taylor (GOOGLE) Grant Barrett has updated his excellent MTA fare analysis document ... $, Become a micropatron today. ... www.kottke.org/remainder/05/03/7738.html - 12k - Mar 8, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 02:33:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: Wilson Gray: >According to the literature available when and where I was a child, >bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs >"chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." Jonathan Lighter: >Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was >unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. > >I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. "Jug o' rum" goes back to 1847 on the American Periodical Series: ----- _The Cultivator_, Nov. 1847; Vol. 4, Iss. 11; p. 353, col. 2 Even the frogs sometimes seem to indulge a little in humorous or sarcastic ditties, for one sings out, "Jug o' rum! jug o rum! jug o' dhrum!"--while another answers--"Paddy got dhroonk, got dhroonk, 'oonk 'nk!" ----- That appears in a piece entitled "Rural Sounds" that has some truly bizarre onamatopoetic interpretations. Take this song of the "Bob o'link", supplied by "a southern writer": "Bobby Lincoln--look Mary Lincoln--velvet pantaloons and summer jacket, ho!--Bobby Lincoln won't let Mary Lincoln gad about alone over clover top, dock-weed, and apple tree--nor shall she marry Michael Mangel Wurtzel!" The reader also learns of a doctor who hears the robin's song as "Kill 'em! kill 'em! cure 'em! cure 'em! give 'em physic, physic, physic!", and a tailor who hears the sparrow's song as "Prick yer fin-ger, suck it, suck it well!" --Ben Zimmer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 02:43:53 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:43:53 -0500 Subject: OT: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis In-Reply-To: <7AA2FB91.3ADCCCA7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Yeah, there's nothing more remarkable than a little high school math to get your name in the New York Post. I was hoping for exclamation marks in the headline. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:31, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Grant Barrett's MTA analysis (www.doubletongued.org) been quoted all > over. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 02:59:26 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:59:26 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050309212730.01e00018@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:27, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website > address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto > their website. I see no evidence that this is true. The software being used is Moveable Type, well-known blogging software. The content appears to be unique: I find no other instances of select phrases when searching Google, Technorati, or Feedster. The narrative thread in the posts is also consistent, which would not be the case if they were the product of an aggregator. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 03:18:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:18:15 -0500 Subject: "Perfect Storm" In-Reply-To: <200503090352.j293qDdg026614@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know, did the term "perfect storm" originate with Sebastian Junger's 1997 book with that title? Or was Junger employing a preexisting term? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 04:18:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:18:07 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not very long after WWII, circa 1947, "A New Process for Straightening Hair" (This "New Process" had no brand name) was introduced into the barbershops in the black neighborhoods of St. Louis. Since I've never worn my own hair straightened, I had no more interest in the New Process than I had in the old process that is so lovingly described in the "Autobiography of Malcolm X." So, I have no idea as to whether the "New Process" originated in St. Louis or spread there from somewhere else. In any case, the "New Process" was heavily advertised on the four hours a day of black radio then available in St. Louis and and in the local black newspapers, not to mention in the shop windows of the barbershops themselves. After a couple or three months or so, the conk and its handmaidens, "Congolene Jelly" and "Du-Konk Pomade" were dead, not to mention the "gas job," which was accomplished by running a heated straightening comb through one's hair, resulting in a sort of poor man's conk. The "New Process" took as much time as it took for a woman's trip to the hairdresser and likewise involved the use of one of those three-quarter-egg-shaped hairdryers. It also cost heavy dues, as much as $5.00, whereas a regular haircut cost from 50 to 75 cents. In other words, anybody who could afford the New Process couldn't possibly be indigent. That being the case, I assume that the marine quoted was a racist. These days, a process costs in the neighborhood of a hundred dollars. One part of the New Process involved a long time sitting around waiting for the processing chemicals to do their work. Since the actual styling of the patron's hair was done partially while the chemicals were still doing their work, the patron's hair was put up in rollers and/or curlers and the hair-do wrapped in a bandanna tied exactly as Rosie the Riveter's, except that it was a more manly black or navy in color. This bandanna was, of course, the "hair-do rag." Most readers here are probably already aware of this, but BE is a dialect in which "rag" means not only rag, but any kind of relatively small, useful piece of cloth such as a face rag, a head rag = a facecloth, a bandanna. In my youth, stocking caps were made of actual stockings and were used to keep a man's hair in place while he slept. These were never worn outside. It would have been like appearing in public in just underwear. But men and youths did wear either handkerchiefs or bandannas as head rags outside and they were considered quite stylish for casual wear. These were tied around and over one's head pirate-style or Aunt-Jemima style and antedated the (hair-)do rag by a few years. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Do-Rag (1966) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is >in the New York Times? > >I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html >I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on >the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any >other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. > >''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, >''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or >men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . >. but some young African-American men are masters at transforming >the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes >that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, >was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' > >Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by >Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San >Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the >metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school >officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece >of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; >garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. >The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a >scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved >mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a >paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. > > >(JSTOR) >Take Care of Business >Marvin X >The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >1968), pp. 85-92 >Pg. 85: >WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >typical college student. > > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 04:29:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:29:05 -0500 Subject: "Perfect Storm" Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:18:15 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Does anyone know, did the term "perfect storm" originate with Sebastian >Junger's 1997 book with that title? Or was Junger employing a preexisting >term? Junger was quoting the meteorologist Bob Case. Whether Case came up with the term himself, I don't know. ----- http://www.usatoday.com/weather/movies/ps/moreperfect.htm USA Today Weather 07/04/00- Updated 01:41 PM ET [...] The meteorologist quoted in Junger's book is having his own second thoughts. Bob Case of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration was described watching satellite images of a Canadian high-pressure system, a major low-pressure system in the North Atlantic and Hurricane Grace to the south. ''Meteorologists see perfection in strange things and the meshing of three completely independent weather systems to form a hundred-year event is one of them,'' Junger wrote. ''My God, thought Case, this is the perfect storm.'' Case, now retired, told the Times from his Pennsylvania home that he meant to say a perfect set of circumstances had aligned to make the mid-Atlantic storm intense and long-lasting. ''Now, unfortunately, the combination of the book and especially the movie have made it the greatest storm, and that's not the case,'' said Case. ---- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 10 06:10:22 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050308185850.0301b5b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I looked around for the etymology of "cootie". I didn't find it. But I found something else. Note that the earliest instance of "hootchie-cootchie" [dance] in HDAS has the following, dated 1895: <>. Forms like "coochy-coochy" and "couchee-couchee" coexisted with forms like "hoochy-coochy" for some time. If "coochy-coochy" or so was ancestral, maybe the change of the initial /k/ to /h/ was influenced by an older "Hoochy Coochy" (not a dance) cited in HDAS from 1890. ---------- _Los Angeles Times_, 26 May 1901: p. 11: <> ---------- The spelling "kutchy-kutchy" brings to mind the "coochy-coochy-coo" which is spoken to a baby, and which appeared in an 1884 song title (sheet music reproduced at the LOC "American Memory" site) "Kutchy! Kutchy! Little Baby!" (a song about a baby, not about a cooch dancer). ---------- _Atlanta Constitution_, 4 Nov. 1885: p. 4: <> ---------- I presume "kutchy" here is pronounced /kUtSi/ or /kutSi/. Here is the same spelling used much later. ---------- _Indiana Evening Gazette_ (Indiana PA), 25 Jan. 1962: p. 6: <> ---------- The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta [dance]" (with variants). ---------- _Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: <> ---------- _New York Times_, 7 May 1893: p. 13: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 13 Aug. 1893: p. 28: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 20 Aug. 1893: p. 29: [advertisement] <> ---------- _Washington Post_, 5 Dec. 1894: p. 6: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 13 Jan. 1895: p. 36: [advertisement] <> ---------- _Davenport Daily Republican_ (Davenport IA), 24 Oct. 1895: p. 1: <> ---------- But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" (i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. ---------- _Davenport Tribune_ (Davenport IA), 14 Feb. 1894: p. 3(?): <> ---------- _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Coshocton OH), 16 Nov. 1900: p. 1: <> ---------- I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it is not available to me. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 07:25:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:25:06 -0500 Subject: angle of the eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Thomas Paikeday >Subject: angle of the eye >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This seems common in literature about glaucoma - 4,250 hits in Google. It >refers to the filtration or drainage angle where the cornea attaches to the >iris. OED (2002) and the other dictionaries I checked don't have an entry >for the phrase, nor is it defined under "angle." A full-text search shows >nine citations. See esp. the 1911 cite under "iridial," adj. > >T. M. Paikeday >www.paikeday.net As one who has glaucoma, I can assure you that the "angle of the eye" really is simply the angle formed by the intersection of the iris and the cornea. The width of this angle defines whether one has open-angle glaucoma or angle-closure glaucoma. Otherwise, the angle of the eye is of no consequence. FWIW, I have open-angle glaucoma. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 08:24:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:24:11 -0500 Subject: "Yours till Niagara Falls" (1907) Message-ID: YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS--1,090 Google hits, 16 Google Groups hits I was going through the Journal of The Ohio Folklore Society today. This seemed like one of the most popular of these constructions. Spring 1969, Journal of the Ohio Folklore SOciety, vol. IV, no. 1 Pg. 51: _NOTES AND QUERIES_ _YOURS TILL THE COWS COME HOME_ Pg. 53: Yours till you see the salad dressing. (...) Yours till the door steps. Yours till the kitchen sinks. Yours till the horse flies. Yours till the bed springs. Yours till the barn dances. Yours till the cake walks. (...) Yours till Niagara Falls. Yours till the board walks. Yours till the side walks. (...) Yours till the powder puffs. Pg. 54: Yours till the sun sets. Yours till the cows get feathers. Yours till the pigs get feathers. Yours till the onions cry. Yours till the cows come home. Yours till the chickens stop laying eggs. (...) Yours till Red's hair turns black. Yours till you sit hearing sad stories. Pg. 55: Yours till you marry Dickie Rideout. Yours till you take algebra and geometry. (...) Yours till I die. (...) Yours till Helen Falls. (...) Yours till the ocean wears rubber pants to keep its bottom dry. Pg. 64: _LOOKING THROUGH THE ARCHIVES_ _AUTOGRAPH ALBUMS_ (...) "You can fall from a tree You can fall from a roof But for goodness sake Don't fall in love." 1936 "When you get married and have twins Don't come to me for safety pins." 1937 "I wish you luck I wish you joy I wish you a baby boy When its hair begins to curl Then I wish you a baby girl." 1938 Pg. 65: "First comes graduation Then comes Marriage Then comes Josephine With a baby carriage." 1938 "Yours till the hot dogs bark." 1936 "Yours till Niagra Falls." 1968 "California grows oranges Florida does too. But it takes Ohio to grow a peach like you." 1936 "Yours till powder puffs." 1936 "What shall I write What shall it be Just two sweet words Remember me." 1939 "When you are old and can not see Put on your specks and think of me." 1968 Pg. 66: "Roses are red, and Indians are black, Do me a favor and sit on a tack." 1957 Remember the city, Remember the town Remember the girl that wrote her autograph upside down." 1957 "I.N.V.U.Q.T." 1957 Pg. 67: "Roses are red, Violets are blue, When it rains, I think of you. DRIP DRIP DRIP" 1959 "You had room for your friends, You had room for your lover, _But_ you didn't have room for little ol' me So I had to write on the cover." 1961 Pg. 68: "When you get married and live in a tree Send me a coconut C.O.D." 1956 "Tulips in the garden Tulips in the park But the kind Joyce likes best Are two lips in the dark." 1956 "It makes me giggle It makes me laugh That you want my autergraph." 1956 "When you get married, and live by the lake, Float me a piece of your weding cake." 1956 Pg. 69: "Someday you may have, I hope, Rainbows for your skipping rope." 1962 Pg. 70: "Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust If it weren't for the girls, Boys lips would rust." 1961 "When you get old and out of shape, Remember girdles are $2.98." 1961 "History is a subject, at least it used to be, First it killed the Romans, Now it's killing me." 1961 "Let your life be like arithmetic: Joys added, sorrows subtracted, Friends multiplied, love undivided." 1961 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ve Letters Received by the Most Beautiful Woman in Chicago.; Tributes from the Whole Country. Portrait Wins Love of Thousands. Appeals to Best Class of Men. Believe She Is Beyond Their Reach. Filipino Urges His Suit. Doesn't Want to " Make a Mash." Remember Her Now She Is Famous. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 17, 1907. p. F2 (1 page) : "Thanking you in advance for a reply, and hoping fate will be favorable to this note, I am, "Yours Till Niagara Falls." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Indianapolis Star Wednesday, October 30, 1912 Indianapolis, Indiana ...it at advertising rates. YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS. Ind. B. Hanly continues.. Lincoln Star Sunday, May 03, 1931 Lincoln, Nebraska ...This report submitted by "YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS, "BILL DARBY." "You've got.....that Mopey was down here again, "YOURS truly, L.EW HUNTER." "That doesn't.. Nevada State Journal Friday, November 13, 1931 Reno, Nevada ...Felizio Andrade. Past "YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS." TODAY'S GREAT BIG.....in our country the problem is old. In YOURS it is new. In Japan it has always.. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 10 11:01:57 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:01:57 -0000 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: The only person I know of who has used "skilligimink" is Howard R Garis, in his Uncle Wiggily stories. Can anyone suggest from where he might have got it? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 10 12:15:43 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:43 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: His own version of skinnamarink? sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:01 AM Subject: Skilligimink > The only person I know of who has used "skilligimink" is Howard R > Garis, in his Uncle Wiggily stories. Can anyone suggest from where he > might have got it? > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 12:28:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:28:23 -0800 Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This, on a grand scale, wiped out the dinosaurs. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:13 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > On an eerily related note, here's some real-life research that tends to support the message underlying the above ditty: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1432991,00.html L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 12:35:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:35:18 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The origin of the phrase, "A little bird told me." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilson Gray: >According to the literature available when and where I was a child, >bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs >"chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." Jonathan Lighter: >Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was >unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. > >I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. "Jug o' rum" goes back to 1847 on the American Periodical Series: ----- _The Cultivator_, Nov. 1847; Vol. 4, Iss. 11; p. 353, col. 2 Even the frogs sometimes seem to indulge a little in humorous or sarcastic ditties, for one sings out, "Jug o' rum! jug o rum! jug o' dhrum!"--while another answers--"Paddy got dhroonk, got dhroonk, 'oonk 'nk!" ----- That appears in a piece entitled "Rural Sounds" that has some truly bizarre onamatopoetic interpretations. Take this song of the "Bob o'link", supplied by "a southern writer": "Bobby Lincoln--look Mary Lincoln--velvet pantaloons and summer jacket, ho!--Bobby Lincoln won't let Mary Lincoln gad about alone over clover top, dock-weed, and apple tree--nor shall she marry Michael Mangel Wurtzel!" The reader also learns of a doctor who hears the robin's song as "Kill 'em! kill 'em! cure 'em! cure 'em! give 'em physic, physic, physic!", and a tailor who hears the sparrow's song as "Prick yer fin-ger, suck it, suck it well!" --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 10 14:12:19 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:12:19 -0000 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <000801c5256a$eb232fc0$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: > His own version of skinnamarink? Thanks. Er, what's "skinnamarink"? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 14:14:44 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:14:44 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. Help? --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > Not to mention that switching would require that the > National Institute > of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the > National Bureau of > Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna > Division", a cadre > of mobile calibration standards ready to report to > field sites all over > America, and replace it with a "Peroxide Squadron", > who would need to be > trained and otherwise brought up to speed. Plus, "I > Love Lucy" would be > pulled out of the Primary Standards repository and > replaced with > "Baywatch". > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been > the > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any > switch to the > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial > recalibration > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > years ago. > > > > JL > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: James C Stalker > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > Jim > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > JL > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 15:17:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:17:42 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, Baywatch). Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. > Help? > > --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > > Not to mention that switching would require that the National > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready > to report to > > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary > > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > > Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been > > the > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any > > switch to the > > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial > > recalibration > > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > > years ago. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: James C Stalker > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 10 15:32:48 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:32:48 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA817@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Just to contribute to this idle speculation further, I should note that I grew up with BCH and that the "B" was "black," not blonde. (In my adult usage, I have replaced it with "tad.") dInIs > Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" >measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a >red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). > >A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, >Baywatch). > >Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. > >Bill > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. >> Help? >> >> --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> > Not to mention that switching would require that the National >> > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National >> > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna >> > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready >> to report to >> > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide >> > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to >> > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary >> > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: American Dialect Society >> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> > Jonathan Lighter >> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> > header >> > > ----------------------- >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ----------------- >> > > >> > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been >> > the >> > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any >> > switch to the >> > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial >> > recalibration >> > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. >> > > >> > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >> > years ago. >> > > >> > > JL >> > > >> > > James C Stalker wrote: >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> > header >> > > ----------------------- >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > > Poster: James C Stalker >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ----------------- >> > > >> > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >> > > >> > > Jim >> > > >> > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >> > > >> > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >> > > > >> > > > JL >> > > > >> > >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Make Yahoo! your home page >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 15:50:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:50:47 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project Message-ID: from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for that matter, sitings?) not in our archives... Begin forwarded message: > > this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) > > recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' > instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not > read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', > and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . > it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there > is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > is the use of this phrase documented at all? From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Mar 10 16:05:01 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:01 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Just saw an online advertisement which read: >Looks like the geeks can get back to being dorks. Made me wonder whether or not the geek/dork pair might have the possibility of evolving into synonymy approaching the level of gorse/furze. I suppose that at the moment, some might object that geek has a techie sense which dork lacks (i.e., computer geeks, not computer dorks), but a good pr firm oughta be able to change all that by strategic blogging, etc. Michael McKernan From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Mar 10 16:07:35 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:09:04 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:09:04 -0800 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:50 AM, i quoted, re "isht": >> it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >> is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. at least two: International Society for Heart Transplantation Instituto Superior de Humanidades e Tecnologias both worthy-sounding entities. and that ain't no isht. arnold From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 10 16:18:30 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <423055C3.28035.B961CA5@localhost> Message-ID: >what's "skinnamarink"? This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a Scotticism. -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:37:19 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [Jonathan Lighter:] >>>>> Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration that could result in a slowing of economic growth. Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. <<<<< >From another thread: >>>>> The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. <<<<< Help! I obviously missed something. What are we talking about? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:20:04 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:20:04 -0500 Subject: Circus Slang (1894) In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes to us: >>>>> Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. <<<<< "Peaking trumpet"? Is that a typo for "speaking trumpet"? OED Online: speaking-trumpet : A kind of trumpet (chiefly used at sea), so contrived as to carry the voice to a great distance, or to cause it to be heard above loud noises. [Citations 1671-1887] -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:53:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:53:47 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This question was raised on Usenet as far back as 1999. I've never encountered it before now, though. Many of the hits, however, must just be typos. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for that matter, sitings?) not in our archives... Begin forwarded message: > > this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) > > recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' > instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not > read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', > and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . > it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there > is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > is the use of this phrase documented at all? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:46:35 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:46:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:12 AM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >>that matter, sitings?) >> >>not in our archives... >> >>Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >>> >>>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>>is the use of this phrase documented at all? > >Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every >year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a >cluster-simplified version of the former? > > >Larry "Ish" as an exclamation of disgust has been around a long time, at least in the frozen North of Minnesota; other regions use "ick" or "yuck," I believe. But "ish" as a noun is new to me, assuming that's what Larry and Grant are suggesting. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:50:42 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:50:42 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <98d2e8a181d7d1ae9b8b8bb5661d7830@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Come to think of it (and I haven't for a long long time), I used to also hear "isht" and "ishta" as variants of Minnesota "ish," but again only as an exclamation, not as a noun. ("Ishta" is sort of like "oofta" up there, but implying something awful, not just unfortunate.) At 11:33 AM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > >>I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. >this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my >student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored >settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of >people who are tailoring their language -- for example, > >Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat >.... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever >the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. >.... > www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html > >[this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >the writer of the above.] > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 16:05:19 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:19 -0500 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: That's nice synchronicity: yesterday I took down some citations from a blogger in Detroit using "ish" in place "shit," and added it to my queue of terms to research further. It's easy to search for if you use pat phrases: "give/gave/giving a/an ish/isht"; "knock/kick/smack the ish/isht," "full of ish/isht", "talk/talked/talking ish/isht," etc. Here's the blogger: http://lifeintextformat.blogspot.com/2005/03/things-i-hate-about- work.html Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 10, 2005, at 10:50, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for > that matter, sitings?) > > not in our archives... > > Begin forwarded message: >> >> this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >> recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >> instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >> read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >> and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >> it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >> is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >> is the use of this phrase documented at all? > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:12:21 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:12:21 -0500 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >that matter, sitings?) > >not in our archives... > >Begin forwarded message: >> >>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>is the use of this phrase documented at all? Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a cluster-simplified version of the former? Larry From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:32:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:32:12 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [Dennis R. Preston:] >Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >obvious association with "kneedeep"). [Ben Zimmer:] Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? <<<<< Laura Ingalls Wilder, if I recall correctly, wrote in one of the books of the Little House series, her fictionalized memoirs of growing up on the frontier in the years after the Civil War, of hearing a bullfrog's croak as a warning: "Knee-deep! Knee-deep! Better go round!" -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:35:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:35:44 -0500 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bill Mullins writes: > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; > pg. 19/5 "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, > shimmering with emerald-gold and silver fin." > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, 1937; > p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] The hotel advertisement does not seem connected with the literary/SF use of "urban fantasy". The book review headline may or may not; it could easily have been coined by the reviewer or the editor to describe a story that would not at all be considered "fantasy" in literary terms. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:33:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:33:05 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <000d01c5258b$475f7fd0$787aeb3f@chaos> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. > this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of people who are tailoring their language -- for example, Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat ... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. ... www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by the writer of the above.] and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:57:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:57:48 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Dunno about that, but a search does turn up plenty of " uck "s and " *uck "s. JL . David Bergdahl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: ISHT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:59:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:59:56 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: If Yalies have to simplify their clusters, we ARE in trouble. Yeah, I know.... JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >that matter, sitings?) > >not in our archives... > >Begin forwarded message: >> >>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>is the use of this phrase documented at all? Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a cluster-simplified version of the former? Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:06:42 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:06:42 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050310114746.0336d988@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >> On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: >> www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html >> [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >> construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >> the writer of the above.] It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, shaboney, etc." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:09:19 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:09:19 -0500 Subject: isht/ish (was: if you're ever looking for a new project) In-Reply-To: <20050310165348.2905.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 11:53, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This question was raised on Usenet as far back as 1999. I've never > encountered it before now, though. Many of the hits, however, must > just be typos. Some, surely, but others are called out in scare quotes, which would indicate the typing was intentional: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.adventist/ msg/f209e315999aa963?dmode=source (That URL is long and likely to be broken by a mail reader, so you might have to paste two pieces together to get the whole.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:11:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: Fwd: ISHT Message-ID: The first quoted paragraph below should be attributed to Mr. Arnold Zwicky, not Mr. David Bergdahl. Begin forwarded message: >>> www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html >>> [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >>> construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >>> the writer of the above.] > > It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" > (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; > (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, > shaboney, etc." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 18:23:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:23:09 -0500 Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess Message-ID: GLASS ZOO 10 March 2005, New York Sun, R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. column, pg. 11, col. 1: On another occasion, Mr. Bolton wrote that if the glass zoo on the East River that is the U.N. headquarters "lost ten stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference." I'd add "glass zoo" to "lipstick" and "black rock" for NYC buildings, but I don't see much use so far. -------------------------------------------------------------- GUERRILLA CHESS 10 March 2005, New York Sun, Nibras Kazimi opinion, pg. 11, col. 2: In desperation, they employed the tactics of "guerilla chess" that are inspired by the fundamental premise of guerrilla warfare: you win by not losing. There are some hits for "guerrilla chess" and "guerilla chess," but not many. There were only gorillas when I played. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:03:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:03:56 -0500 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:09 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:50 AM, i quoted, re "isht": > >>>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > >at least two: >International Society for Heart Transplantation >Instituto Superior de Humanidades e Tecnologias > >both worthy-sounding entities. and that ain't no isht. > As opposed to the Society for Heart and Intellect Transplantation (or the South Hanoi Institute of Technology, which was of course the home institution of the late, lamented Quang Phuc Dong). L From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:05:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:05:35 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > Just saw an online advertisement which read: > > >Looks like the geeks can get back to being dorks. > > Made me wonder whether or not the geek/dork pair might have > the possibility of evolving into synonymy approaching the > level of gorse/furze. > > I suppose that at the moment, some might object that geek has > a techie sense which dork lacks (i.e., computer geeks, not > computer dorks), but a good pr firm oughta be able to change > all that by strategic blogging, etc. > > Michael McKernan > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:19:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:19:20 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050310111601.02fa9cb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>what's "skinnamarink"? > >This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I >think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a >Scotticism. > FWIW, "skinnamarink" was in standard colloquial use in NYC, '50s, by those of decidedly non-Scottish extraction. I've never come across "skilligimink" before now, though. Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:21:08 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:21:08 -0600 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project Message-ID: I've found others of the "SF" terms on the lists that didn't appear initially as SF, but evolved from related meanings already extant. Example: Sense of Wonder > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: new SF cites for the OED SF project > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Bill Mullins writes: > > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for > > St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; pg. 19/5 > "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, shimmering with > emerald-gold and silver fin." > > > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, > 1937; p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] > > The hotel advertisement does not seem connected with the > literary/SF use of "urban fantasy". The book review headline > may or may not; it could easily have been coined by the > reviewer or the editor to describe a story that would not at > all be considered "fantasy" in literary terms. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:28:10 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:28:10 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One Froggy Evening"? From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:39:41 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:39:41 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA81A@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: > What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One >Froggy Evening"? Besides the singing? Nothing as articulated as _ribbit_. My memory is that he sounded like a frog. Barbara From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:42:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:42:47 -0500 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be >modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" >or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta >[dance]" (with variants). > >---------- > >_Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: > ><widely-advertised dance of a woman whose name I have forgotten, but who, it >was gravely asserted, had been famous in India for several years. .... She >performed what was known as the "Koota-Koota" dance. This is a series of >postures of such a nature that even in Calcutta the dance was considered >infamous.>> > >---------- [snip cites from 1893-95 for "koota-koota", "kuta-kuta", "kutcha-kutcha"] Till Gerry Cohen chimes in, I thought I'd provide some more cites from 1893-95, mostly referring to the belly-dancers who performed at Chicago's 1893 Columbian Exposition in the "Streets of Cairo" exhibit on the Midway Plaisance. The dancers apparently traveled the country on the vaudeville circuit, or at least spawned imitators who promoters claimed had performed in Chicago. The most common spelling variant is "kouta-kouta": ----- National Police Gazette, Dec 16, 1893, p. 6 Crowds gathered in cornerns and gazed tremulously at visions of limbs flashing in difficult dances like streaks of lightning. The Koota-Koota dance, adorned with east-side variations, was realistic. ----- Boston Globe, Dec 31, 1893, p. 19 (advt.) Why, I've got a stage show for you this week that will fairly make you throw up your hands. There ain't a piece of dead wood in it from start to finish, and to cap the climax I've reengaged Mme. Carre and her famous troupe of Kouta-Kouta dancers for one more week. ... This Kouta-Kouta dance is the greatest card that has ever been offered the public. ... It created a furor in Chicago, was the talk of the town in New York, and it caused a heap of excitement when it was first introduced at the Howard, and you know it. ... Come early, and stay as long as you please, but don't miss the Kouta-Kouta dancers at the old Howard Athenaeum tomorrow. [...] Olio: The Kouta-Kouta Dancers. The four original and only Kouta-Kouta dancers who created the sensational furor on the Midway Plaisance, and whose fame has spread from one end of the continent to the other. ----- Boston Globe, Jan 2, 1894, p. 3 The Kouta-Kouta dancers made their usual hit, being encored several times. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 18, 1894, p. 2 By a unanimous vote of the Alderman at a special meeting today, the notorious "Mussell," or "Kouta Kouta" dance, alleged to have been performed by dancers from the Midway Plaisance, World's Fair, has been officially declared immoral and banished from Boston. ----- Washington Post, Apr 22, 1894, p. 14 Another feature will be the appearance of another installment of the Midway dancers in the persons of Hadji Sheriff, Viobela, Zara, and Montezo, in the Kouta-Kouta, the national dance of their country. They are said to be the same dancers who created such a sensation in Cairo street at the World's Fair. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1895, p. 4 Kinetoscope Pictures. It is Omene in the nearest approach to the kouta-kouta dance that has been seen in this city. ----- Washington Post, Aug 27, 1895, p. 2 Later in the evening she appeared as Princess Kouta-Kouta and gave a dance which was wild and hilarious. ----- When belly-dancers performed in a reconstruction of Chicago's Midway in Atlanta in 1895, "coochee-coochee" and "coutah-coutah" were used in the press interchangeably: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 23, 1895, p. 7 Have you heard Cora Routt sing of the simple country maiden who "had never seen the coochee-coochee dance?" The boys around town are all whistling away on that delicious oriental-American tune which is so suggestive of the Midway, and Cora certainly sings it with great feeling. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 24, 1895, p. 2 AGAINST THE COUTAH-COUTAH.; Manufacturers Say It Detracts from Their Exhibits at Fairs. A resolution was adopted which cited that windmills, threshing machines and vehicles stood no earthly chance whatever by the side of the seductive coutah-coutah dance and a vigorous campaign will at once be begun to wipe out this innovation. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 26, 1895, p. 1 The committee visited the Midway, ate the "hot-hots" of Egyptian commerce, drank of the seductive liquid refreshments purveyed by the Turks, witnessed the "coochee coochee" dance, and pronounced it a godd thing. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 26, 1895, p. 7 ON WITH THE DANCE; But It Is Move On, the Georgia Legislators Say. THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE MID The Coutah-Coutah Is Too Much Like a Tamole for Their Taste--A Day in the Legislature. "There is no record of any law compelling a lady or gentleman to visit the 'coochee dance,'" said he. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Nov 4, 1895, p. 4 He explained that while he was in sympathy with the legislative bill prohibiting the coochee-coochee dance, being a fair-mind man, he could not condemn the dance without seeing whether it was naughty or not. ----- >But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or >Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" >(i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. That seems possible. I would guess that promoters of the belly-dance troupes came up with the exotic-sounding "kuta kuta" for the dance (and the name "Princess Kuta Kuta" for the starring performer) simply to suggest the wiggling of the dancers' hips. >I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it >is not available to me. Nor to me. But here is some information on James Thornton's 1895 song "Streets Of Cairo or The Poor Little Country Maid" (cited in HDAS with the spelling "kutchy-kutchy"): http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles3/streets-of-cairo.htm And here is a review (with an excerpt) of Donna Carlton's 1995 book _Looking for Little Egypt_, which might provide further insight: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/review.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/Info.htm Carlton notes that the legendary belly-dancer "Little Egypt" does not appear in any of the contemporaneous press accounts of the Columbian Exposition, only becoming notorious a few years afterwards. This may be true of the term "hoochy coochy" as well, first becoming attached to the Midway dancers well after the original performance. (In the excerpt, Carlton says that the book discusses "the long-debated etymology of 'hoochy coochy'" and suggests "a new derivation.") --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:43:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:43:37 -0800 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Skilligimink ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >what's "skinnamarink"? This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a Scotticism. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:47:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:47:43 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "J-bronie" represents "jabroney," "gibroney," etc., var. "jaboney," "giboney," etc., meaning "stupid or offensive person." See HDAS I. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: ISHT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. > this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of people who are tailoring their language -- for example, Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat ... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. ... www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by the writer of the above.] and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:52:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:52:27 -0800 Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: There are a few hits for "gorilla chess" also. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GLASS ZOO 10 March 2005, New York Sun, R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. column, pg. 11, col. 1: On another occasion, Mr. Bolton wrote that if the glass zoo on the East River that is the U.N. headquarters "lost ten stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference." I'd add "glass zoo" to "lipstick" and "black rock" for NYC buildings, but I don't see much use so far. -------------------------------------------------------------- GUERRILLA CHESS 10 March 2005, New York Sun, Nibras Kazimi opinion, pg. 11, col. 2: In desperation, they employed the tactics of "guerilla chess" that are inspired by the fundamental premise of guerrilla warfare: you win by not losing. There are some hits for "guerrilla chess" and "guerilla chess," but not many. There were only gorillas when I played. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:55:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:55:09 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA818@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to undergo job retraining? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:56:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:56:21 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I recall, he uttered a prelinguistic frog-like sound. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One Froggy Evening"? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 20:01:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:40 -0800 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) Message-ID: Listen to the entire melody here. It's better than you remember ! Honest ! http://www.shira.net/streets-of-cairo.htm A related site offers a "belly-dancing" version. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be >modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" >or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta >[dance]" (with variants). > >---------- > >_Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: > ><>widely-advertised dance of a woman whose name I have forgotten, but who, it >was gravely asserted, had been famous in India for several years. .... She >performed what was known as the "Koota-Koota" dance. This is a series of >postures of such a nature that even in Calcutta the dance was considered >infamous.>> > >---------- [snip cites from 1893-95 for "koota-koota", "kuta-kuta", "kutcha-kutcha"] Till Gerry Cohen chimes in, I thought I'd provide some more cites from 1893-95, mostly referring to the belly-dancers who performed at Chicago's 1893 Columbian Exposition in the "Streets of Cairo" exhibit on the Midway Plaisance. The dancers apparently traveled the country on the vaudeville circuit, or at least spawned imitators who promoters claimed had performed in Chicago. The most common spelling variant is "kouta-kouta": ----- National Police Gazette, Dec 16, 1893, p. 6 Crowds gathered in cornerns and gazed tremulously at visions of limbs flashing in difficult dances like streaks of lightning. The Koota-Koota dance, adorned with east-side variations, was realistic. ----- Boston Globe, Dec 31, 1893, p. 19 (advt.) Why, I've got a stage show for you this week that will fairly make you throw up your hands. There ain't a piece of dead wood in it from start to finish, and to cap the climax I've reengaged Mme. Carre and her famous troupe of Kouta-Kouta dancers for one more week. ... This Kouta-Kouta dance is the greatest card that has ever been offered the public. ... It created a furor in Chicago, was the talk of the town in New York, and it caused a heap of excitement when it was first introduced at the Howard, and you know it. ... Come early, and stay as long as you please, but don't miss the Kouta-Kouta dancers at the old Howard Athenaeum tomorrow. [...] Olio: The Kouta-Kouta Dancers. The four original and only Kouta-Kouta dancers who created the sensational furor on the Midway Plaisance, and whose fame has spread from one end of the continent to the other. ----- Boston Globe, Jan 2, 1894, p. 3 The Kouta-Kouta dancers made their usual hit, being encored several times. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 18, 1894, p. 2 By a unanimous vote of the Alderman at a special meeting today, the notorious "Mussell," or "Kouta Kouta" dance, alleged to have been performed by dancers from the Midway Plaisance, World's Fair, has been officially declared immoral and banished from Boston. ----- Washington Post, Apr 22, 1894, p. 14 Another feature will be the appearance of another installment of the Midway dancers in the persons of Hadji Sheriff, Viobela, Zara, and Montezo, in the Kouta-Kouta, the national dance of their country. They are said to be the same dancers who created such a sensation in Cairo street at the World's Fair. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1895, p. 4 Kinetoscope Pictures. It is Omene in the nearest approach to the kouta-kouta dance that has been seen in this city. ----- Washington Post, Aug 27, 1895, p. 2 Later in the evening she appeared as Princess Kouta-Kouta and gave a dance which was wild and hilarious. ----- When belly-dancers performed in a reconstruction of Chicago's Midway in Atlanta in 1895, "coochee-coochee" and "coutah-coutah" were used in the press interchangeably: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 23, 1895, p. 7 Have you heard Cora Routt sing of the simple country maiden who "had never seen the coochee-coochee dance?" The boys around town are all whistling away on that delicious oriental-American tune which is so suggestive of the Midway, and Cora certainly sings it with great feeling. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 24, 1895, p. 2 AGAINST THE COUTAH-COUTAH.; Manufacturers Say It Detracts from Their Exhibits at Fairs. A resolution was adopted which cited that windmills, threshing machines and vehicles stood no earthly chance whatever by the side of the seductive coutah-coutah dance and a vigorous campaign will at once be begun to wipe out this innovation. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 26, 1895, p. 1 The committee visited the Midway, ate the "hot-hots" of Egyptian commerce, drank of the seductive liquid refreshments purveyed by the Turks, witnessed the "coochee coochee" dance, and pronounced it a godd thing. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 26, 1895, p. 7 ON WITH THE DANCE; But It Is Move On, the Georgia Legislators Say. THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE MID The Coutah-Coutah Is Too Much Like a Tamole for Their Taste--A Day in the Legislature. "There is no record of any law compelling a lady or gentleman to visit the 'coochee dance,'" said he. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Nov 4, 1895, p. 4 He explained that while he was in sympathy with the legislative bill prohibiting the coochee-coochee dance, being a fair-mind man, he could not condemn the dance without seeing whether it was naughty or not. ----- >But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or >Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" >(i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. That seems possible. I would guess that promoters of the belly-dance troupes came up with the exotic-sounding "kuta kuta" for the dance (and the name "Princess Kuta Kuta" for the starring performer) simply to suggest the wiggling of the dancers' hips. >I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it >is not available to me. Nor to me. But here is some information on James Thornton's 1895 song "Streets Of Cairo or The Poor Little Country Maid" (cited in HDAS with the spelling "kutchy-kutchy"): http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles3/streets-of-cairo.htm And here is a review (with an excerpt) of Donna Carlton's 1995 book _Looking for Little Egypt_, which might provide further insight: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/review.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/Info.htm Carlton notes that the legendary belly-dancer "Little Egypt" does not appear in any of the contemporaneous press accounts of the Columbian Exposition, only becoming notorious a few years afterwards. This may be true of the term "hoochy coochy" as well, first becoming attached to the Midway dancers well after the original performance. (In the excerpt, Carlton says that the book discusses "the long-debated etymology of 'hoochy coochy'" and suggests "a new derivation.") --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 20:03:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:03:32 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. Otherwise, see HDAS. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to undergo job retraining? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 10 20:07:36 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:07:36 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <20050310194337.44092.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a collection of "Brooklynisms" at http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. Joanne On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Skilligimink > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >what's "skinnamarink"? > > This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I > think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a > Scotticism. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 10 21:14:19 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:14:19 -0800 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate disagreeableness. Fritz and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold From gingi at POBOX.COM Thu Mar 10 21:31:57 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:31:57 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050310192813.2563D28063B@lime.pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2005-03-10 13:28, Bill.Mullins offered ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU this data: > What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One > Froggy Evening"? Something linguistically between *BRRRAP* and *BRRROP*, sounding rather like a belch. (yes, my memory for such things is a little weird) -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 21:26:54 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:26:54 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I never did say it in nice company--I just hate the sound of it! But you're right, the adjective use is common too, usually as "ishy." At 04:14 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for >generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? > >The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be >used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate >disagreeableness. >Fritz > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 10 21:53:00 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:53:00 -0800 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: I think it was OK in polite company, but maybe outlanders will force a change on -MNsotans. >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/10/05 01:26PM >>> I never did say it in nice company--I just hate the sound of it! But you're right, the adjective use is common too, usually as "ishy." At 04:14 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for >generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? > >The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be >used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate >disagreeableness. >Fritz > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 23:12:16 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:12:16 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <5b5f3b2fba3aa7d34de2e6427f1481f5@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 9:06 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >>> the writer of the above.] > > It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" > (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; > (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, > shaboney, etc." cool. i should have thought of "gibroney", which i've heard (but not for a long long time). arnold From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 11 00:43:45 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:43:45 -0500 Subject: corrected Re: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <200503091859612.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I stand corrected - just started working with foxfire and didn't see the rss feed. thanks so much, karen At 09:59 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Re: correction Re: astroturf >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:27, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > > you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website > > address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto > > their website. > >I see no evidence that this is true. The software being used is >Moveable Type, well-known blogging software. The content appears to be >unique: I find no other instances of select phrases when searching >Google, Technorati, or Feedster. The narrative thread in the posts is >also consistent, which would not be the case if they were the product >of an aggregator. > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 01:16:23 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:16:23 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Bill Mullins: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? Larry Horn: >when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to >undergo job retraining? Jonathan Lighter: >The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. > >Otherwise, see HDAS. The first HDAS cite for "geek" in the nerdy sense ('an unsociable or overdiligent student') is from Edith Folb's _Runnin' Down Some Lines: The Language and Culture of Black Teenagers_ (1980). The OED3 draft entry antedates this with a 1957 cite from Jack Kerouac's letters: ----- 1957 J. KEROUAC Let. 1 Oct. in Sel. Lett. 1957-69 (1999) 66 Unbelievable number of events almost impossible to remember, including..Brooklyn College wanted me to lecture to eager students and big geek questions to answer. ----- I'm not quite sure what Kerouac meant by "big geek questions"... In any case, the use of "geek" in the collegiate context didn't take off until the mid-'70s. Here's a 1976 cite I found in the Harvard Crimson online archive: ----- http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=105171 Harvard Crimson, August 10, 1976 Ever wondered what was on the other side of Central Square besides the MIT geeks with pocket computers and the NECCO factory? ----- Fred Shapiro noted recently that "geek" was not much used at MIT in the '70s, so perhaps it was something of an exonym, applied by Harvard students to MIT students. I was only able to find one example from the '70s in the online archive of MIT's paper, The Tech, with its hit-or-miss OCR -- and that's for a letter to the editor reprinted from *Dartmouth's* paper: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_098/TECH_V098_S0514_P001.pdf The Tech (MIT), Nov. 14, 1978, p. 1, col. 1 To the Editor: I would just like to comment on the present epidemic of geekishness which is pervading the ranks of freshmen here at the college. I should correct myself and say that this rare disease seems to have been an integral aspect of the class of '81 ever since it set foot in this once geek-free environment. To document my accusation I cite the incredibly weak showing in their first bonfire building, and now their even weaker show in. their second attempt. Where is all their spirit? Most likely it's to be found in the stacks, or Kiewit [Computation Center), or the '02 room perhaps. I just don't know what to make of it all. I challenge these geeks to show a little spirit and produce an 81 tier bonfire by Friday night. It would also be nice to see a few kegs and some spirit around their awaited creation each night. Until then I rest my case. Jeff Boylan '79 The Dartmouth ----- "Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster "Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 02:31:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:31:36 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: A careful consideration of all the "geek" evidence suggests that there was probably no single moment when it came to cover overly intellectual types. tThe word had been in use for decades here and there with "weirdo" being one connotation. IIRC, the early DN cite came from a college campus. But the word's widespread current popularity surely dates from the late '70s and early '80s. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Mullins: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? Larry Horn: >when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to >undergo job retraining? Jonathan Lighter: >The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. > >Otherwise, see HDAS. The first HDAS cite for "geek" in the nerdy sense ('an unsociable or overdiligent student') is from Edith Folb's _Runnin' Down Some Lines: The Language and Culture of Black Teenagers_ (1980). The OED3 draft entry antedates this with a 1957 cite from Jack Kerouac's letters: ----- 1957 J. KEROUAC Let. 1 Oct. in Sel. Lett. 1957-69 (1999) 66 Unbelievable number of events almost impossible to remember, including..Brooklyn College wanted me to lecture to eager students and big geek questions to answer. ----- I'm not quite sure what Kerouac meant by "big geek questions"... In any case, the use of "geek" in the collegiate context didn't take off until the mid-'70s. Here's a 1976 cite I found in the Harvard Crimson online archive: ----- http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=105171 Harvard Crimson, August 10, 1976 Ever wondered what was on the other side of Central Square besides the MIT geeks with pocket computers and the NECCO factory? ----- Fred Shapiro noted recently that "geek" was not much used at MIT in the '70s, so perhaps it was something of an exonym, applied by Harvard students to MIT students. I was only able to find one example from the '70s in the online archive of MIT's paper, The Tech, with its hit-or-miss OCR -- and that's for a letter to the editor reprinted from *Dartmouth's* paper: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_098/TECH_V098_S0514_P001.pdf The Tech (MIT), Nov. 14, 1978, p. 1, col. 1 To the Editor: I would just like to comment on the present epidemic of geekishness which is pervading the ranks of freshmen here at the college. I should correct myself and say that this rare disease seems to have been an integral aspect of the class of '81 ever since it set foot in this once geek-free environment. To document my accusation I cite the incredibly weak showing in their first bonfire building, and now their even weaker show in. their second attempt. Where is all their spirit? Most likely it's to be found in the stacks, or Kiewit [Computation Center), or the '02 room perhaps. I just don't know what to make of it all. I challenge these geeks to show a little spirit and produce an 81 tier bonfire by Friday night. It would also be nice to see a few kegs and some spirit around their awaited creation each night. Until then I rest my case. Jeff Boylan '79 The Dartmouth ----- "Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster "Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 11 02:46:39 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >"Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster >"Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 > >Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 >in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a 'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later text of the online ad which prompted my post). But whadabout dork? As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 02:47:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:47:18 -0800 Subject: "Inkfish" Message-ID: For "ink-fish," a cuttlefish or squid, OED offers but two cites (1693 and 1752). 1996 Eddie S. Picardo Tales of a Tail Gunner (Seattle: Hara Pub. Co.) 33 : On Christmas Eve...Grandma would make spaghetti sauce with inkfish (today they would call it calamari or squid). Picardo (b. 1922) grew up in Seattle. In mercantile ingenuity, the switch to "calamari" from "inkfish" rivals that to "Alaska king-crab" from "Japanese spider-crab." (Neither of these appears in OED.) JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 11 03:00:04 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:00:04 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that was live chickens; the geek bit the head off, or something like that. Dead chickens wouldn't have been nearly gross enough to merit such a special term! Victoria > > At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens > at the carnival > >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > > Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 03:26:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:26:05 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <423062B8.15771.108C4A1C@localhost> Message-ID: At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >collection of "Brooklynisms" at >http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. > >Joanne > >On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >> > > JL >> strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. Urban slang? L From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 11 03:39:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:39:42 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: Age 60, grew up in Virginia, lived in Ohio since 1970. Never encountered the word(skinnamarinkidink) in any form until my son and I watched the "Elephant Show" on tv, late 1980's, early 1990's. Sharon, Lois and Bram. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Skilligimink > At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >>A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >>something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >>collection of "Brooklynisms" at >>http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. >> >>Joanne >> >>On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >>> >> > JL >>> > strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my > daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it > was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real > skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. > Urban slang? > > L > From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 03:56:40 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:56:40 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My mother, KY born (1919) and bred,used "skinny minny" usually in the phrase skinny minny fish tail, as in she's a real skinny minny fish tail. I still use it in intimate (family) contexts mostly, and generally to refer to children. My wife used it too, in the same phrase. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >> A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >> something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >> collection of "Brooklynisms" at >> http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. >> >> Joanne >> >> On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >>> >> > JL >>> > strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my > daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it > was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real > skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. > Urban slang? > > L > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Mar 11 04:00:53 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:00:53 -0500 Subject: Isht and Ish In-Reply-To: <69c0993baccc4ccae56989e6aed4171d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: For what it's worth, Alonzo Westbrook's "Hip Hoptionary: The Dictionary of Hip Hop Terminology" (2002) separates "ish" and "isht", p. 76: ish: chitchat. "We sat around shooting the _ish._" isht: expletive, like shit. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 04:11:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:11:42 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I support my So. IN colleague. B is black not blonde in my native Louisville, KY and was black in Chapel Hill, NC in the late 50s and early 60s. We really must adhere to strict standards here. No usage variation please. JCS Dennis R. Preston writes: > Just to contribute to this idle speculation further, I should note > that I grew up with BCH and that the "B" was "black," not blonde. (In > my adult usage, I have replaced it with "tad.") > > dInIs > > > >> Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" >> measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a >> red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). >> >> A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, >> Baywatch). >> >> Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. >> >> Bill >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society >>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer >>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Ed Keer >>> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----------------- >>> >>> Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. >>> Help? >>> >>> --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >>> > Not to mention that switching would require that the National >>> > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National >>> > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna >>> > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready >>> to report to >>> > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide >>> > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to >>> > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary >>> > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". >>> > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: American Dialect Society >>> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >>> > Jonathan Lighter >>> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >>> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> > header >>> > > ----------------------- >>> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > >>> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> > >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > ----------------- >>> > > >>> > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been >>> > the >>> > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any >>> > switch to the >>> > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial >>> > recalibration >>> > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. >>> > > >>> > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >>> > years ago. >>> > > >>> > > JL >>> > > >>> > > James C Stalker wrote: >>> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> > header >>> > > ----------------------- >>> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > > Poster: James C Stalker >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > ----------------- >>> > > >>> > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >>> > > >>> > > Jim >>> > > >>> > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >>> > > >>> > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >>> > > > >>> > > > JL >>> > > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Make Yahoo! your home page >>> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >>> > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 04:45:02 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:45:02 EST Subject: napkins and servietes Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 10:00:24 AM, sod at LOUISIANA.EDU writes: > "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends > had a field day with my American useage. > Then what do you ask for at McDonald's in Louisiana--a serviette? I doubt it! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:22:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:22:02 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan wrote: >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > >But whadabout dork? > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns with "nerd", not "dork". "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" and "nerd" have been subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both terms has become more prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic melioration, no doubt inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ (an expression subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et al.) "Geek" has followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness the article in the latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics retailer Best Buy: http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html Part of Best Buy's recent success has been attributed to their deployment of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable techies who work as "agents" assisting befuddled customers. See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek chic": http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 05:36:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:36:03 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and "geek" often does. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >"Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster >"Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 > >Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 >in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a 'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later text of the online ad which prompted my post). But whadabout dork? As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:38:12 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:38:12 +0800 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <20050311044507.B550956FF6@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:45:02 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM said: > > "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends > > had a field day with my American useage. > Then what do you ask for at McDonald's in Louisiana--a serviette? I doubt > it! Serviette does sound silly in American English. In British English and in French it sounds perfectly natural. I don't suppose much French is spoken in McDonald's restaurants (for want of a better word) in Louisiana - even in Cajun country. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:53:15 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:53:15 -0600 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <36.6e4a56fe.2f627c4e@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't go to McDonalds. :-) We have far too many more interesting killer-food purveyors down here. Once you've had a fried [choose one] shrimp/oyster/catfish/softshell crab po'boy, a Big Mac doesn't seem so big. Were I ever in McDonald's, though, I would ask for paper napkins. The context would unambiguously allow for plain old "napkins," but some experiences are too deeply embedded to forget. In other instances, simple codeswitching would suffice. sod From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:59:45 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:59:45 -0600 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <1110519492.24077.218078669@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: You'd be surprised how much of the Cajun dialect is abroad in the open market down here. The linguist in the next office runs middle-aged subjects who have Cajun as their native language and who only learned English when they went to public school. sod From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 09:18:55 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:18:55 EST Subject: Big Dance; Chicago Tribune; Circus Slang correction Message-ID: "CIRCUS SLANG" CORRECTION: "Nobody without a voice like a speaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent." ... ... CHICAGO TRIBUNE--Proquest hasn't done anything on the Los Angeles Times all year. Still at 1968. On more year to a "slam dunk" and "point guard," and almost at "granola" and "California roll." No movement at all....Meanwhile, the Chicago Tribune digitization now appears to have some of 1964, and then it skips to 1968 and 1969. It's now ahead of the LA Times! ... ... ... BIG DANCE: This was mentioned at the Word Origins board, and Grant Barrett mentioned his entry. We'd discussed "Big Dance" and "March Madness" before. I now see in ads this week that the NCAA clearly trademarks "The Big Dance." Some NCAA trademarks show 2000, but see the earlier NCAA trademarks below. ... (WORD ORIGINS BOARD) "The origin of "Big Dance" is seemingly lost to history, at least in terms of who first used it as a synonym for March Madness. Nevertheless, the NCAA trademarked the phrase in 2000." ...... _http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/big_dance/_ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/big_dance/) ... .. _Colgate, to the Big Dance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=115848264&SrchMode=1&sid=34&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111053 1428&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 16, 1995. p. A24 (1 page) ... 6. _Ice Tank_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=114853594&SrchMode=1&sid=34&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110531428&cl ientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1987. p. D23 (1 page) ... _Duos at the Big Dance_ Fourteen schools sent teams to both the men's and women's N.C.A.A. Division I basketball tournaments this year. ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE BIG DANCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: toys and sporting goods, namely, basketballs, miniature basketballs, miniature basketballs, backboards and miniature backboards, all in connection with intercollegiate basketball games and intercollegiate basketball tournaments Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75468617 Filing Date April 15, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition March 30, 1999 Owner (APPLICANT) National Collegiate Athletic Association, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERISITES KANSAS 6201 College Boulevard Overland Park KANSAS 66211 Attorney of Record DANIEL L. BOOTS Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date June 23, 2002 ... ... Word Mark THE BIG DANCE Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: entertainment services in the nature of intercollegiate basketball games and intercollegiate basketball tournaments. FIRST USE: 20000300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20000300 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75468619 Filing Date April 15, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition April 13, 1999 Registration Number 2480288 Registration Date August 21, 2001 Owner (REGISTRANT) National Collegiate Athletic Association, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION INDIANA P.O. Box 6222 Indianapolis INDIANA 462066222 Attorney of Record Douglas N. Masters Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 11 10:07:12 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:07:12 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Jonathan Lighterwrote: >Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >"geek" often does. > Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about the chicken bit. But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does lack). Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement (as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 10:15:03 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:15:03 EST Subject: Lemon Cake rhyme (1894); Saratoga Potatoes; Parker House Rolls Message-ID: The "peanut butter" in this food article turns out to be a false hit. Anyway, the "lemon cake rhyme" is worth posting. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_ ... _BEST HOME COOKING.; "Daily Hints" Are Popular With Women Readers. "Questions Asked and Answered" Prove a Hit in the Recipe Department. "True and Tried" Still Doming In From Clever Women of New England. Daily Hints to Housekeepers. BLANK MANGE Read Carefully. Making a Lemon Pic Delicious Chocolate Cake. Up to Date Success." Nice Loaf Cake. Chocolete Cake. Fruit Cake Two Good Cakes. Snow Pudding. Nice Wedding Cake. Gingerbread Without an Egg Good Coffee. Finnan Haddie. Baked Haddock with Tomato Dressing More Explicit Directions. Frosted Lemon Ple. Cake to Keep Molst, Etc. She Can Make Doughnuts Now. Confectioner Frosting. Golden Rod Kisses Wanted. Recipes and Requests. Lemon Cake and Rhyme. Answers Given. Raised Mother's Cake. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=570611462&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1110533754&clientId=65882) Boston. Dec 13, 1894. p. 8 (1 page) ... _Lemon Cake and Rhyme._ ... Five cups of flour, White and clean; One cup of butter, Nothing mean; Six new-laid eggs, Well buttered up; Enough of milk To fill one cup; One lemon, large, Two, if small; Sugar, three cups, To sweeten all; Teaspoonful of soda, add; Rich lemon cake Will then be had. Bake it in pans To please the eye. Round or oblong, Should you try; Then one thing note, Without surprise; The more you make, The less the size. ... I took this from the Boston Olive Branch more than 50 years ago. It has been my favorite cake for a great many years. Mrs. H. N. M. Ashmont. ... ... (The poem dates to the 1840s?--ed.) ... ... ... SARATOGA POTATOES ... ... The digitized Atlanta Constitution is earliest on ProQuest. ... ... _Georgia Gossip.; Dalton Citizen. Washington Gazette. Rockdale Register. Quitman Reporter. Maffetta Journal. Lawrenceville Herald. Waynesboro Expositor. Covington Enterprise. MARRIED IN GEORGIA. DIED IN GEORGIA. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=528553122&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110534752&clientId=65882) The Constitution (1875-1876). Atlanta, Ga.: Jul 8, 1876. p. 3 (1 page) ... Washington Gazette. ... Dr. Holland has taken the Washington hotel and advertise thus: ... "Holland's Washington hotel--on the tooth plan--the only plan superior to the European plan. Beefstake (sic) with or without onions. Saratoga potatoes, French coffee, iced tea, peanuts on toast, frogged chicken, etc., etc. Music three times a fay! Teeth examined before each meal! ... I price my victuals to suit the times, So when you come bring me your dimes!" ... ... ... PARKER HOUSE ROLLS ... Nothing definitive and early in the Boston Globe. The next OED revision will have what? ... ... _AMATEUR COOKERY.; The Newest Notion of the Pretty Girls of Boston. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=522028462&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=P ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110535447&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1869-1875). Atlanta, Ga.: Sep 18, 1873. p. 0_2 (1 page) ... >From the Boston Post. (...) "Parker house rolls! Who is up to that, I wonder?" From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Mar 11 11:49:54 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:49:54 -0600 Subject: serviette Message-ID: I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. J. Nihart From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Mar 11 12:00:13 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:00:13 +0000 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <200503111150.j2BBo1lq009002@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Here in the UK, back in the '40s (before my time), there was a comedy routine utilising internal vowel switches, with the resulting phrase: double-damask danner nipkips (dinner napkins, of course). Just wouldn't work with 'serviette'. --Neil Crawford From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 11 12:01:19 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:01:19 +0800 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <20050311115000.BF94B2526@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a = > serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun > = > calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A = > serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. > J. Nihart I speak French at home with my wife. We live in a French-speaking village the Swiss Alps. A few minutes ago, I pointed at a napkin and asked her to tell me what it was. She said "serviette." In English I'd never say serviette. Then again, I'm not British. (Incidentally, in Switzerland a serviette is a napkin. In France it's usually a towel. The Swiss say "linge" when they mean towel.) Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:01:17 2005 From: s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko S. Mufwene) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:01:17 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <004801c52630$717cb0d0$c6c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: >I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. >J. Nihart I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' is "serviette." I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a native speaker, and she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier thread of your remark?... Sali. ********************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene ********************************************************** From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 14:09:21 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:09:21 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've only ever heard it as plain CH, so I was perplexed. --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > Just idle speculation as to what would happen if > the "standard" > measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in > "move that over just a > red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH > (blonde cunt hair). > > A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a > blonde hair (peroxide, > Baywatch). > > Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I > usually amuse myself. > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed > Keer > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Ed Keer > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the > joke. > > Help? > > > > --- "Mullins, Bill" > wrote: > > > Not to mention that switching would require that > the National > > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, > formerly the National > > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to > dissolve its "Henna > > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration > standards ready > > to report to > > > field sites all over America, and replace it > with a "Peroxide > > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and > otherwise brought up to > > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out > of the Primary > > > Standards repository and replaced with > "Baywatch". > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > > > Jonathan Lighter > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the > mail > > > header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have > been > > > the > > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. > Any > > > switch to the > > > > BCH standard would require extensive > industrial > > > recalibration > > > > that could result in a slowing of economic > growth. > > > > > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > > > ---------------------- Information from the > mail > > > header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: James C Stalker > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 14:19:37 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:19:37 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. Ed --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > wrote: > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > almost included it as a > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > appeared in the later > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > closely than nerd does, in > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > again, nobody else seems to > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > gorse/furze (whin). > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > with "nerd", not "dork". > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > and "nerd" have been > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > terms has become more > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > melioration, no doubt > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > (an expression > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > al.) "Geek" has > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > the article in the > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > retailer Best Buy: > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > attributed to their deployment > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > techies who work as "agents" > assisting befuddled customers. > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > chic": > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > --Ben Zimmer > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 14:44:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:44:24 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've only ever heard it as plain CH, so I was >perplexed. I'm with Ed on this. I've heard only CH and, till now, I'd also read only CH, -Wilson > >--- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> Just idle speculation as to what would happen if >> the "standard" >> measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in >> "move that over just a >> red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH >> (blonde cunt hair). >> >> A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a >> blonde hair (peroxide, >> Baywatch). >> >> Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I >> usually amuse myself. >> >> Bill >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: American Dialect Society >> > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed >> Keer >> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > Poster: Ed Keer >> > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ----------------- >> > >> > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the >> joke. >> > Help? >> > >> > --- "Mullins, Bill" >> wrote: >> > > Not to mention that switching would require that >> the National >> > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, >> formerly the National >> > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to >> dissolve its "Henna >> > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration >> standards ready >> > to report to >> > > field sites all over America, and replace it >> with a "Peroxide >> > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and >> otherwise brought up to >> > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out >> of the Primary >> > > Standards repository and replaced with >> "Baywatch". >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: American Dialect Society >> > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> > > Jonathan Lighter >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the >> mail >> > > header >> > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > ----------------- >> > > > >> > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have >> been >> > > the >> > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. >> Any >> > > switch to the >> > > > BCH standard would require extensive >> industrial >> > > recalibration >> > > > that could result in a slowing of economic >> growth. >> > > > >> > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >> > > years ago. >> > > > >> > > > JL >> > > > >> > > > James C Stalker wrote: >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the >> mail >> > > header >> > > > ----------------------- >> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > > > Poster: James C Stalker >> > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > ----------------- >> > > > >> > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >> > > > >> > > > Jim >> > > > >> > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >> > > > >> > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >> > > > > >> > > > > JL >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________ >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:47:54 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. sally From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:49:48 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:49:48 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <004801c52630$717cb0d0$c6c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: I'll be sure to pass that information along to my grandmother-in-law. sod From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 14:52:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:52:18 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: I've heard dork as a term for penis, but never heard geek or nerd (although all of them can roughly be synonym to dick, as in "you're a dick/dork/geek/etc."). > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael McKernan > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:07 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Jonathan Lighterwrote: > > >Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live > chickens" > >and "geek" often does. > > > > Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, > in 'natural speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a > gross exaggeration, and that the great majority of > speakers/writers using geek have no idea about the chicken bit. > > But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > > And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a > positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word > just too dorky? > > I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of > geek, dork, nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair > has a greater affinity due to a tendency to elevate them into > positive status (which AFAIK, dork does lack). > > Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since > I've just experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a > Vonage online advertisement (as partially noted in my > original post). My curiousity, however, need not match > anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > > Michael McKernan > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 15:18:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:18:42 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >>"geek" often does. >> > >Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural >speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and >that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about >the chicken bit. > >But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > >And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition >or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? Well, here's an "other comment." I first heard "dork" in 1959 while serving in the Army at Fort Leonard Wood, MO. The speaker was a G.I. named Gewinner who came from somewhere in Illinois. He used the word "dork" with "penis" as its only meaning. If that's dork's original meaning, perhaps - I'm stabbing in the dark [pun intended; "dork" and "dark" fall together as "dark" in St. Louis, where I grew up] here - perhaps that somehow blocks its complete melioration. -Wilson > >I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, >nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due >to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does >lack). > >Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just >experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement >(as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not >match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > >Michael McKernan From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 15:34:51 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:34:51 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: Yes, it is a Scotticism, though I wonder if it came over here. It appears in the following children's rhyme, which my first wife (from Blackburn, West Lothian) was fond of: "Skinny malinky long legs, big banana feet Went tae the pictures an couldnae find a seat When the picture started Skinny malinky farted Skinny malinky long legs, big banana feet" This is a 20c. rhyme, obviously, but I wonder if there are American equivalents. Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Skilligimink > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Skilligimink > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >what's "skinnamarink"? > > This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I > think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a > Scotticism. > > -- Doug Wilson From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 11 15:51:58 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:51:58 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20050311075747.01778010@imap.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: 'Seviette' is traditional for 'napkin' in English-speaking Canada and is still quite common, especially for the paper kind. Nobody ever blinks if I ask for a serviette in an eatery in Saskatoon (in the middle of the Prairies). This is true even of young servers, so regardless of which term they themselves use, it's obviously totally familiar to them. I also see it in print from time to time and hear other people of varying ages use the term too. However, 'napkin' is probably more common now, across the country as a whole. As for French use in Canada: an old (1962) Canadian French-English dictionary I have, produced by the Lexicographic Research Centre of the University of Montreal, gives 'table napkin' as the first sense of Fr. 'serviette'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Salikoko S. Mufwene > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:01 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: serviette > > > At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: > >I have spoken French and English all my life and have > never asked for a > >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In > French a Cajun > >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second > syllable). A > >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. > >J. Nihart > > I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' > is "serviette." > I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a > native speaker, and > she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French > reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier > thread of your > remark?... > > Sali. > > ********************************************************** > Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu > Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor > University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX > 773-834-0924 > Department of Linguistics > 1010 East 59th Street > Chicago, IL 60637 > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene > ********************************************************** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Fri Mar 11 15:57:56 2005 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Lemay) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:57:56 +0000 Subject: serviette Message-ID: An exchange from the 1939 Three Stooges film "Three Sappy People": The Countess: "I dropped my serviette." Curly: "Here, have half of mine." (gallantly tearing his napkin in two) The Countess: "Thank yaw." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:01:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:01:38 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and "nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a "geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who discovered the fact ? JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. Ed --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > wrote: > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > almost included it as a > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > appeared in the later > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > closely than nerd does, in > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > again, nobody else seems to > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > gorse/furze (whin). > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > with "nerd", not "dork". > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > and "nerd" have been > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > terms has become more > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > melioration, no doubt > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > (an expression > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > al.) "Geek" has > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > the article in the > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > retailer Best Buy: > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > attributed to their deployment > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > techies who work as "agents" > assisting befuddled customers. > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > chic": > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > --Ben Zimmer > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:04:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:04:09 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600, Sally O. Donlon wrote: >I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek >reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed >out, but heavily offended because to them it means the >really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- >grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. As a reasonably well-read child in the '70s and '80s, I hardly ever came across the carnival-performer sense of "geek". I remember being a little perplexed when I listened carefully to Bob Dylan's "Ballad of a Thin Man": You hand in your ticket And you go watch the geek Who immediately walks up to you When he hears you speak And says, "How does it feel To be such a freak?" And you say, "Impossible" As he hands you a bone. That was probably my first exposure to the term. Later on I heard it in the Ramones song "I'm Against It" (from their 1978 _Road to Ruin_ album): "I don't like Jesus freaks, I don't like circus geeks." And I think I came across the expression "geek show", though it wasn't clear to me that it meant anything different from "freak show". (My primary source of knowledge on old-fashioned circus freaks, Tod Browning's cult film _Freaks_, did not feature any chicken-head-biting geeks, to the best of my recollection.) --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:04:10 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <003401c52652$41b853a0$6a8ba58e@vneufeldt> Message-ID: If y'all go to Jack Chambers' dialect topography site at the University of Toronto ya'll can see the results of research into just such questions from across Canada. http://dialect.topography.chass.utoronto.ca/dt_results.php For example, in the Golden Horseshoe, "napkin" was preferred by 69% of the respondents, serviette by only 13%; in the Ottawa Valley, the figures were 60% to 18% in favor of "napkin." dInIs >'Seviette' is traditional for 'napkin' in English-speaking Canada and >is still quite common, especially for the paper kind. Nobody ever >blinks if I ask for a serviette in an eatery in Saskatoon (in the >middle of the Prairies). This is true even of young servers, so >regardless of which term they themselves use, it's obviously totally >familiar to them. I also see it in print from time to time and hear >other people of varying ages use the term too. However, 'napkin' is >probably more common now, across the country as a whole. > >As for French use in Canada: an old (1962) Canadian French-English >dictionary I have, produced by the Lexicographic Research Centre of >the University of Montreal, gives 'table napkin' as the first sense of >Fr. 'serviette'. > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >> Of Salikoko S. Mufwene >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:01 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: serviette >> >> >> At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: >> >I have spoken French and English all my life and have >> never asked for a >> >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In >> French a Cajun >> >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second >> syllable). A >> >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. >> >J. Nihart >> >> I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' >> is "serviette." >> I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a >> native speaker, and >> she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French >> reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier >> thread of your >> remark?... >> >> Sali. >> >> ********************************************************** >> Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu >> Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor >> University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX >> 773-834-0924 >> Department of Linguistics >> 1010 East 59th Street >> Chicago, IL 60637 >> http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene >> ********************************************************** > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 16:06:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:06:17 -0600 Subject: big cup of . . . Message-ID: Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: "Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# 111016501481915117 Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" Are there others? From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:13:14 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <20050311160139.43707.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. "Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Remember, there are no such real things as languages. dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) >Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and >"nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also >means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a >"geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." > >Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are >indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who >discovered the fact ? > >JL > >Ed Keer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed >a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > >Ed > > >--- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan >> wrote: >> >> >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I >> almost included it as a >> >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually >> appeared in the later >> >text of the online ad which prompted my post). >> > >> >But whadabout dork? >> > >> >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more >> closely than nerd does, in >> >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then >> again, nobody else seems to >> >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to >> gorse/furze (whin). >> >> I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns >> with "nerd", not "dork". >> "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" >> and "nerd" have been >> subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both >> terms has become more >> prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic >> melioration, no doubt >> inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ >> (an expression >> subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et >> al.) "Geek" has >> followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness >> the article in the >> latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics >> retailer Best Buy: >> >> >http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html >> >> Part of Best Buy's recent success has been >> attributed to their deployment >> of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable >> techies who work as "agents" >> assisting befuddled customers. >> >> See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek >> chic": >> >> >http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:15:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:15:55 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ha ! Teen discomfiture is one of the highest aims of education, I always say ! JL "Sally O. Donlon" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Sally O. Donlon" Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. sally --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 16:18:54 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:18:54 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Yes, it was the only real fun I ever had as a Scout Leader. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:16 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Ha ! Teen discomfiture is one of the highest aims of > education, I always say ! > > JL > > "Sally O. Donlon" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Sally O. Donlon" > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the > geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not > only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the > really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- > grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. > > sally > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:19:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:19:25 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The limited evidence suggests that "dick" was indeed the original meaning of "dork," presumably during the late 40s. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >>"geek" often does. >> > >Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural >speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and >that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about >the chicken bit. > >But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > >And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition >or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? Well, here's an "other comment." I first heard "dork" in 1959 while serving in the Army at Fort Leonard Wood, MO. The speaker was a G.I. named Gewinner who came from somewhere in Illinois. He used the word "dork" with "penis" as its only meaning. If that's dork's original meaning, perhaps - I'm stabbing in the dark [pun intended; "dork" and "dark" fall together as "dark" in St. Louis, where I grew up] here - perhaps that somehow blocks its complete melioration. -Wilson > >I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, >nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due >to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does >lack). > >Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just >experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement >(as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not >match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > >Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:26:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:26:48 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: "Y'all" can be used in the singular and "you guys" can't. Moreover, "y'all" is heavily marked a s Southern, while "you guys" isn't. "Y'all" is one syllable, but "you guys" is two. (Am not certain of the regional distribution of "gorse" and "furze," or how strongly marked they are for regionality.) JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. "Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Remember, there are no such real things as languages. dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) >Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and >"nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also >means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a >"geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." > >Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are >indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who >discovered the fact ? > >JL > >Ed Keer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed >a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > >Ed > > >--- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan >> wrote: >> >> >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I >> almost included it as a >> >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually >> appeared in the later >> >text of the online ad which prompted my post). >> > >> >But whadabout dork? >> > >> >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more >> closely than nerd does, in >> >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then >> again, nobody else seems to >> >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to >> gorse/furze (whin). >> >> I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns >> with "nerd", not "dork". >> "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" >> and "nerd" have been >> subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both >> terms has become more >> prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic >> melioration, no doubt >> inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ >> (an expression >> subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et >> al.) "Geek" has >> followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness >> the article in the >> latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics >> retailer Best Buy: >> >> >http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html >> >> Part of Best Buy's recent success has been >> attributed to their deployment >> of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable >> techies who work as "agents" >> assisting befuddled customers. >> >> See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek >> chic": >> >> >http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:28:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example (where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Remember, there are no such real things as languages. exactly; this was my (attempted) point with the (admittedly imperfect) "hella"/"wicked" example earlier in the week >dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) > agreed on this too L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:29:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:29:33 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's dialect. --Ben Zimmer From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:31:39 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:31:39 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <36960.69.142.143.59.1110557049.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Luckily (?) for me, I had three older brothers who seemingly knew everything. They were particularly knowledgeable about, and willing to share, the gross stuff. sod From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:31:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:31:31 EST Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY is much much worse. I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, "Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. "If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. "I liked the fish because it was greasy." Only if you like a lot of oil on your food. I guess one might write a recipe in which one said something like, "Use enough butter on the baked potato that it is slightly greasy," but I could not say that without the "slightly." Is DInIs alone in this, or am I behind the greasy/greazy curve. In a message dated 3/11/05 11:13:49 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:32:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:32:17 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >>"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >>called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >>bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >>begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >>"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Beat me to it by about a minute! Gotta post fast around here. --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:34:12 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:34:12 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Collegiate=20"geek"?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20in=20the=20'70s=20(was=20Re:=20Synonymy=20avoidance)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 11:27:10 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Y'all" can be used in the singular and "you guys" can't.  > Or so some people think. From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:40:01 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:40:01 -0600 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <1a6.337c7274.2f6321e3@aol.com> Message-ID: I've grown up with positive connotations over "greazy." My father always complained that my mother's cooking wasn't "greazy" (or salty) enough. He cooked cajun food like nobody's business and she was from the Northeast and could make a mean pot of corned beef and cabbage. Also, when traveling I always prefer to stop in the local "greazy spoon" cafe for meals, rather than a slick chain venue. This is particularly true for Tex-Mex in the U.S. sod From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:41:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:41:37 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example (where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Remember, there are no such real things as languages. exactly; this was my (attempted) point with the (admittedly imperfect) "hella"/"wicked" example earlier in the week >dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) > agreed on this too L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:41:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:41:57 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:31:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time >that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed >as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY >is much much worse. > >I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, >"Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. > >"If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ. Their motto was: "No charge for extra grease." (I even had the T-shirt.) Covert prestige, that. Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994. But do Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:42:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:42:23 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Like "pail" and "bucket." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's dialect. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:43:23 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:43:23 EST Subject: napkins and serviettes Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 12:38:29 AM, paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Serviette does sound silly in American English. In British English and > in French it sounds perfectly natural. > And in Spanish as well. In Mexico, at any rate, one uses a servilleta at table, a toalla after the shower, and pañal on the baby's bottom. From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:15:02 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:15:02 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: I feel like one of these informants in the Survey of Irish Dialects who hadn't actually spoken Irish in 70 years, but were the last who had in their area, but I can try to recapture the '70s definition in University of Michigan Quaddie language, circa '70: GEEK we didn't use much, but the frat crowd did (sometimes of people like us)--it really was still rather close to the carnie definition, in that a geek was someone who was definitely weird and gross with it. We had a guy in our college who didn't wash or change his sheets for six months, and excelled at grossing out people in other (sometimes quite creative) ways too--he would be a geek. NERD/NURD wasn't a techie, as now, or someone who studied all the time; quite the opposite, in some ways. It denoted a person who was kind of dumb and "out of it", but that was the way they were, they couldn't help it. I remember entitling a certain President who had gone to U of M "Gerry Nerd" because of the facility he had for falling out of plane exits, not because of his intelligence. DORK was different. A dork was "out of it" too, but they COULD help it--rather like a jerk in General American parlance. A dork would run into you in the hallway, knock you down and run on his way because he wanted to get in the last seat in the TV room during the World Series ahead of you. A nerd might knock you down, but that was because he was daydreaming about some girl that he didn't have a hope of getting near, and didn't see you. (Trying to get into the 20-yr-old's mindset here). We didn't have dorkwads and geekwads--I think they might have come to Ann Arbor later, but we sure had shitwads and fuckwads, who were even more malicious than dorks. If we knew one, we used to say that the Michigan dorms were East Quad (hence "Quaddie"), South Quad, West Quad, and Fuck Quad, the last being that guy's apartment. I can't remember what the term was for what we call a nerd today. The engineers we shared a dorm with (who you could tell by their crew cuts, slide rules and white socks) were simply "engines". The only term that sounds like my old vocab was "swot", and that comes from my U. of Edinburgh graduate school days later on. Things like "grade grubber" were around, but that's not quite the same thing. Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Keer" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed > a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > > Ed > > > --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > > wrote: > > > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > > almost included it as a > > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > > appeared in the later > > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > > closely than nerd does, in > > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > > again, nobody else seems to > > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > > gorse/furze (whin). > > > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > > with "nerd", not "dork". > > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > > and "nerd" have been > > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > > terms has become more > > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > > melioration, no doubt > > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > > (an expression > > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > > al.) "Geek" has > > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > > the article in the > > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > > retailer Best Buy: > > > > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > > attributed to their deployment > > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > > techies who work as "agents" > > assisting befuddled customers. > > > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > > chic": > > > > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:50:13 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:50:13 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20GREAZY=20and=20GREA?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?SY?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 11:42:36 AM, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as > "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ.  Their motto was: "No charge for > extra grease."  (I even had the T-shirt.)  Covert prestige, that. > > Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, > AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994.  But do > Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? > These are obviously ironic uses of "greasy." I doubt that people reading Tony's sign think (with Dennis)--ah! this food must be lightly and delicately oiled! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:50:31 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:50:31 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Mar 11 16:59:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:59:30 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA821@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: This was a popular meme a while back, post-9-11, often represented as "a (big) (steaming) cup of STFU" which is an acronym for "shut the fuck up," and usually featuring an image of a smiling helmeted soldier hoisting a tin cup. You can find a lot of variations by doing a Google image search for "stfu" (though be warned that some of the results will be unsafe for work): http://images.google.com/images?q=stfu Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 11, 2005, at 11:06, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: > "Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > > http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/ > 2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# > 111016501481915117 > > Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > > Are there others? > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:59:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:15:02 -0500, Paul Johnston wrote: >I can't remember what the term was for what we call a nerd today. The >engineers we shared a dorm with (who you could tell by their crew cuts, >slide rules and white socks) were simply "engines". The only term that >sounds like my old vocab was "swot", and that comes from my U. of Edinburgh >graduate school days later on. Things like "grade grubber" were around, but >that's not quite the same thing. How about "grind"? Or "wonk"? Or "weenie"? --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 17:02:03 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:02:03 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <82.23a3bb20.2f632645@aol.com> Message-ID: I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems to be my requirement for such usage. dInIs >In a message dated 3/11/05 11:42:36 AM, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > > >> Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as >> "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ. Their motto was: "No charge for >> extra grease." (I even had the T-shirt.) Covert prestige, that. >> >> Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, >> AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994. But do >> Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? >> > >These are obviously ironic uses of "greasy." I doubt that people reading >Tony's sign think (with Dennis)--ah! this food must be lightly and delicately >oiled! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 17:02:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:02:46 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But one nut doth not a universal make. Any further evidence of this distinction ? JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 17:17:49 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:17:49 EST Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 12:02:25 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as > some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my > earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease > I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, > sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both > situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems > to be my requirement for such usage. > > dInIs > > Thanks for the clarification. What about IN you? "Lightly and delicately oiled" sounded to me like my friend Mack O'Barr's Italian salads, made with a little fine olive oil, a touch of lemon juice, and some sea salt. (And lettuce, of course.) I have eaten many fine meals with DInIs (and the lovely Mrs. Preston), and the subject of his greasy hands has never come up, so maybe I just naturally think of him in the context of food rather than axles and sewing machines. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 11 18:18:31 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Out of curiosity how many of you have ever met a geek in the carnival sideshow sense of the word? I've known quite a few in my peregrinations around the planet Earth and we were friends including the man who introduced me to geekery who used to stick pins and needles through his cheeks but really wowed the audience when he sewed buttons on his chest although his real specialty was getting blown up by dynamite. A few months ago I appeared on local TV show in order to disabuse the audience of any notion that Sufis had some special religious powers which allowed them to quickly heal after they had driven nails into their heads, etc. and the best line I could come up off the top of my head (no pun intended) was that it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion and magical healing because they were not doing anything I had not seen in that hotbed of religious belief the carnival sideshow. Geekery if you want to call it that has been a mainstay of sideshows for hundreds of years and still exists in more mainstream magical shows. Don't believe me then watch Penn and Teller some time since both of them play the part of the geek in their performances although Teller is the primary geek in their act. When I was in grade school we used to do little geek acts such as sticking pins and needles through our hands or pouring hot wax on them in order to gross out our friends. It looks bad but if you do it right it doesn't hurt any more than sewing buttons on your chest does if you do it right. I would tell you how to eat a lightbulb or to set yourself on fire or even to eat fire except that if you didn't follow my instructions exactly and did it wrong and got hurt you might sue me. Just let me tell you that it is possible to perform such feats without harming yourself, and I will leave it at that. The easiest feats, of course, are to walk across a bed of hot coals or to have someone break a slab of rock while your are lying on a bed of nails. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:31:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:31:44 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <36201.69.142.143.59.1110558573.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 11:29 AM -0500 3/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston >wrote: > >>The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >>"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >>called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >>bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >>begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >>"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > >Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants >pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants >that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as >the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's >dialect. > And in fact this process was first (to my knowledge) defined (as the "law of differentiation") by the coiner of the term "semantics" himself, Michel Bréal (_Semantics_, 1896, trans. 1900). Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:37:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <0db516e5ac0db7fa81a96478e007a9d9@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0600 3/11/05, Sally O. Donlon wrote: >I've grown up with positive connotations over "greazy." > >My father always complained that my mother's cooking wasn't "greazy" >(or salty) enough. He cooked cajun food like nobody's business and she >was from the Northeast and could make a mean pot of corned beef and >cabbage. > >Also, when traveling I always prefer to stop in the local "greazy >spoon" cafe for meals, rather than a slick chain venue. This is >particularly true for Tex-Mex in the U.S. > And in the northeast, where only the pronunciation (at least the only one I grew up with) is "GREASY", the greasy spoon can also be a positive designation, although as Ron would point out irony is involved. I've always thought [+ greasy] to be a positive evaluation for french fries, although not for e.g. tempura. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:45:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:45:40 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <20050311164137.59961.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:41 AM -0800 3/11/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does >anybody(except a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >JL several students in my undergraduate "Words and Meaning" class did; that's where I first learned about it L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 18:53:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:53:05 -0500 Subject: Winter Salad Bowl; Camelust Message-ID: CAMELUST--Only one hit, in this week's New York Observer,pg. 9, cols. 2-3 caption: Hillary Gets Hot, But For Democrats She’s Lose-Lose ... to entertain what has become a fairly obvious possibility: that, in some respects, this is simply the latest manifestation of Camelust—the tendency (known in ... www.observer.com/pages/frontpage3.asp - 22k - Mar 9, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages ...Camelust: the tendency to mistake political star power for political power. WINTER SALAD BOWL--Gotta do all food city nicknames. >From the Wall Street Journal, 11 March 2005, pg. 1, cols. 4-5: _As Border Tightens, Growers See_ _Threat to "Winter Salad Bowl"_ Pg. A8, col. 5: Between November and March, 90% of the leafy vegetables produced in the U.S., including broccoli and cauliflower, originate here, giving Yuma the nickname of the nation's "winter salad bowl." Back to parking tickets. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:57:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:57:53 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >to be my requirement for such usage. > A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:04:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:04:16 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How very interesting! I've never known till now that there was a distinction. I have only GREAZY. I've also been aware since I was in my 20's - from the late '50's to the early '60's - that there existed an alternative pronunciation, GREASY. But this is the first that I've heard tell of the fact that there are some people that use both forms and that there is a semantic distinction between the two forms for such people. I guess that segregation took better than I realized. "There's a a fungus among us. So, take it easy, greasy. You got a long way to slide." -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: GREAZY and GREASY >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time >that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed >as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY >is much much worse. > >I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, >"Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. > >"If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. > >"I liked the fish because it was greasy." Only if you like a lot of oil on >your food. > >I guess one might write a recipe in which one said something like, "Use >enough butter on the baked potato that it is slightly greasy," but I >could not say >that without the "slightly." > >Is DInIs alone in this, or am I behind the greasy/greazy curve. > >In a message dated 3/11/05 11:13:49 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > > > "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:10:22 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:10:22 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <20050311050112.32970B2479@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The closest I know to "skinnamarink" is as a nonsense word in the chorus of a song about Dives and Lazarus. Here's how it begins: There was a rich man and he lived in Jerusalem, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. He wore a top hat and his coat was very sprucium, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. Hi-ro-jerum, hey, hi-ro-jerum, hey! Skinnamarinky doodlium, skinnamarinky doodlium, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:14:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:14:34 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm afraid that you're just too young, Ben. If you'd been around in the '40's and '50's, said ruination of a perfectly good word would trigger a slight feeling of annoyance every time that you came across it in its new (to you) usage. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600, Sally O. Donlon >wrote: > >>I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek >>reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed >>out, but heavily offended because to them it means the >>really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- >>grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. > >As a reasonably well-read child in the '70s and '80s, I hardly ever came >across the carnival-performer sense of "geek". I remember being a little >perplexed when I listened carefully to Bob Dylan's "Ballad of a Thin Man": > >You hand in your ticket >And you go watch the geek >Who immediately walks up to you >When he hears you speak >And says, "How does it feel >To be such a freak?" >And you say, "Impossible" >As he hands you a bone. > >That was probably my first exposure to the term. Later on I heard it in >the Ramones song "I'm Against It" (from their 1978 _Road to Ruin_ album): >"I don't like Jesus freaks, I don't like circus geeks." And I think I >came across the expression "geek show", though it wasn't clear to me that >it meant anything different from "freak show". (My primary source of >knowledge on old-fashioned circus freaks, Tod Browning's cult film >_Freaks_, did not feature any chicken-head-biting geeks, to the best of my >recollection.) > > >--Ben Zimmer From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Mar 11 19:27:16 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:27:16 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Totally off topic but, in the sixties while at school, a friend suggested that we organize all the side show geeks in one big union. He reasoned that any government would cave into our demands rather than allow TV cameras to film 5000 people marching on Washington while biting the heads off of chickens From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:11:25 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:11:25 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bagby Atwood, wasn't it? At 01:57 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>to be my requirement for such usage. >A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) > >Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:37:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:37:31 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311141105.01bd5600@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0500 3/11/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Bagby Atwood, wasn't it? Indeed it was. Thanks. I had the A, but I needed help with the twood. L >At 01:57 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >>A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >>greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >>classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >>who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >>anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) >> >>Larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:41:39 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:41:39 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a verb of course). dInIs >At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>to be my requirement for such usage. >> >A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:53:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > >http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >111016501481915117 > >Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in "whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring untutored Southrons as objects of derision. IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem that I bothered to remember is the first word. -Wilson > >Are there others? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 20:18:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:18:39 -0800 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike (1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old article. "Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." DIXIE Southrons, hear your country call you, Up, lest worse than death befall you! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- Let all hearts be now united! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! CHORUS: Advance the flag of Dixie! Hurrah! Hurrah! In Dixie's land we take our stand, And live or die for Dixie! To arms! To arms! And conquer peace for Dixie! To arms! To arms! And conquer peace for Dixie! Hear the Northern thunders mutter! Northern flags in South winds flutter! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Send them back your fierce defiance! Stamp upon the cursed alliance! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Fear no danger! Shun no labor! Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, Let the odds make each heart bolder! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) How the South's great heart rejoices At your cannon's ringing voices! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! For faith betrayed and pledges broken, Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Strong as lions, swift as eagles, Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Cut the unequal bonds asunder! Let them hence each other plunder! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Swear upon your country's altar Never to submit or falter-- To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Till the spoilers are defeated, Till the Lord's work is completed! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Halt not till our Federation Secures among earth's powers its station! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Then at peace and crowned with glory, Hear your children tell the story! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) If the loved ones weep in sadness, Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: big cup of . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > >http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >111016501481915117 > >Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in "whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring untutored Southrons as objects of derision. IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem that I bothered to remember is the first word. -Wilson > >Are there others? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 20:34:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:34:26 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >verb of course). > >dInIs > > > >>At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>>to be my requirement for such usage. >>A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >>greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >>classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >>who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >>anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) >> >>Larry > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 20:50:14 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:50:14 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20GREAZY=20and=20GREA?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=A0=20SY?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 3:40:25 PM, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > right? > "greazy" (pronounced with the z) is heard in North Carolina. I first heard someone enunciate the relationship between "greasy" and "greazy" as a matter of intensification at least 30 years ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 21:00:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:00:48 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311153028.03418e88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >>verb of course). >> >>dInIs >> Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. Larry From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 21:32:04 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:32:04 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY Message-ID: [gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and [gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > > > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a > >>verb of course). > >> > >>dInIs > >> > > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. > > Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 22:16:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:16:50 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: For the record, notes jotted down on the very scene show that "nerd" was indeed in use at NYU in 1970. But it had nothing to do with technology. It was simply a person who was in some usually petty way annoying or obnoxious. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 22:39:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:39:49 -0800 Subject: "mock-factual" Message-ID: I find less than a dozen Gogle hits for this, but the concept seems to be chillingly useful : "State-of-the-art computer graphics integrated with mock-factual sources make for a horrifyingly realistic build-up to the eruption and the climax itself. Then the devastating aftermath across the globe is revealed � environmentally, politically, economically and socially � as viewers glimpse the future and a post-apocalyptic world." --bbc.co.uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/supervolcano/programme.shtml The show is an invitation to fear the paroxysmal explosion of a bubbling supervolcano under Yellowstone. Such an eruption may be inevitable within the next 100,000 years or so. "Mock-factual" appears to mean "imaginary but plausible enough for the purpose of securing viewers." Or something in that general domain. Bevare ! Take care ! JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 22:53:55 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:53:55 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <008a01c52681$c60e74c0$4ba06cc6@oemcomputer> Message-ID: I haven't heard any, but I'm not in "deep" Appalachia. At 04:32 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >[gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and >[gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? > >Paul Johnston >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Horn" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM >Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't > > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm >not > > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > > > > > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: > > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a > > >>verb of course). > > >> > > >>dInIs > > >> > > > > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under > > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure > > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. > > > > Larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 23:30:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:30:52 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <37961.69.142.143.59.1110559831.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: Doesn't anyone watch "Antiques Roadshow"?! At 11:50 AM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >Larry Horn: > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example > >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Jonathan Lighter: > >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > > > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except > >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that >distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic >Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 00:29:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:29:43 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:16:50 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >For the record, notes jotted down on the very scene show that "nerd" was >indeed in use at NYU in 1970. But it had nothing to do with technology. >It was simply a person who was in some usually petty way annoying or >obnoxious. The techie variety of "nerd"/"nurd", not surprisingly, developed at tech schools. There's evidence on this site that "nurd" was in use at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in the mid-'60s: http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html See the article and photo from the Homecoming 1965 edition of RPI's humor magazine, _The Bachelor_: "Why are 61 nurds so excited?" (reprinted from: ). By the spring of 1970, "(g)nurd"/"nerd" was in common usage at MIT, clearly in a wonkish sense: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0131_P004.pdf The Tech (MIT), Apr. 7, 1970, p. 4, col. 4 So let's settle back and take a tour of MIT, a la General Catalogue, 69/70. At MIT we have tools (p. 40) and nurds (p. 44, bottom); we also feature extra-curricular activities, but only for crew-cut-scholar-athlete- Eagle-Scout-All-American-boys (pp. 27, 28, 61). ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0216_P003.pdf The Tech (MIT), May 12, 1970, p. 3, col. 1 Fifty drug-crazed filthy hippies (Dope has ruined their minds!) gather, smoking pot, spraying paint. They are, for the most part, MIT students; some of them even have secret identities -- mild-mannered gnurds in a Great Eastern Technological University. ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0228_P003.pdf The Tech (MIT), May 19, 1970, p. 3, col. 1 What then does it [sc. _Technique_, MIT's yearbook] have? ... "The Nerd," a thoroughly nurdly treatment of a species with which the author obviously has empathy. ----- (Note adjectival "nurdly" in the last cite -- HDAS has "nerdly" from 1992.) --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 02:05:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:05:11 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My wife, also a New Yorker, seems always to say /ves/. She was told about 1970 that a /vaz/ cost more than $25. She too thinks of it as a joke. Maybe the notion of pronunciation related to price developed as a jest; when it was publicized, many people accepted it as true while others did not. Of the "believers," a certain percentage (few, I would guess) actually alter their native pronunciation to accord with the "rule." Others pass on the information as a "fact" of interest without consistently altering their own pronunciation. It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and "gullibility." JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't anyone watch "Antiques Roadshow"?! At 11:50 AM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >Larry Horn: > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example > >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Jonathan Lighter: > >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > > > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except > >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that >distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic >Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). > > >--Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 02:22:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:22:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: HOOTCHIE COOTCHIE--David Shulman told me about his citation for this, from an old song. I had already been familiar with the song. Gerald Cohen can cite Comments on Etymology a little better. NURD--I think that I posted RPI's "nurd" in the old archives in 1998. I went to RPI. I was an editor of the humor magazine there. I've read every page of every humor magazine. RPI didn't coin "nurd." However, the first thing I was told, in freshman orientation, was that RPI coined "nurd," and that it was really "knurd," or "drunk" spelled backwards. That first year, the pope died. Then the pope died again. Them my dorm-mates told me that I'd been elected Pope Popik, the first member of the Pope-of-the-month-club. And I said, what happens at the end of the month? And they said, you die and we elect a new one... From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 03:43:37 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:43:37 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311175219.02d9dcf8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This is indeed an interesting thread. There are rare differences between Dennis and me, in language at any rate. But occasionally, the rather minor geographical difference of a few miles does make a language difference. Dennis is from southern IN, north of the Ohio River. I’m from a working class neighborhood in southern Jefferson County, outside of Louisville. I didn’t even know or notice that was a possibility in “greasy” and the verb “grease” until I began my grad study in Wisconsin, and that was after spending some time in New York City! I was further not aware of the qualitative difference until I read Roger Shuy’s attitude studies of the AA dialect in Detroit. I became aware of the phonological significance of the s/z distinction when my sister-in-law, from So IN, same neighborhood as Dennis more or less, but later a long time resident of So KY and AL didn’t even hear the difference when I was explaining (unsuccessfully it seems) what dialects are all about. I was telling her about the greasy/greazy line, and she responded, “What greazy/greazy line?” I have inquired about the greasy = more positive/greazy = less positive in my classes at MSU with mixed results. Most of my students, mostly Michiganians/Michiganders, can hear the phonological difference, but it means nothing in terms of positive or negative. Greasy is greasy and it will kill you. Greazy is no worse or better. Now, in my world, a very confused one I admit, greazy is nuanced. George Foreman’s grill does not make decent pork chops. There isn’t enough grease. On the other hand, it is possible to have greazy pork chops, i. e., too much grease. So, bottom lining it here. Dennis (So IN) seems to have a distinction that I (No KY) do not have. JCS Beverly Flanigan writes: > I haven't heard any, but I'm not in "deep" Appalachia. > > At 04:32 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >> [gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and >> [gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? >> >> Paul Johnston >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Laurence Horn" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM >> Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY >> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Laurence Horn >> > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> ----- >> > >> > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and >> adjective, >> > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I >> wasn't >> > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm >> not >> > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. >> > > >> > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >> > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >> > >>verb of course). >> > >> >> > >>dInIs >> > >> >> > >> > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under >> > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure >> > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. >> > >> > Larry > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 03:51:45 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:51:45 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: but my anthologies aren't "on me" at the moment, nor is DARE.) > > Larry > Oh, my God. Are we all becoming linguistic Scrooges dragging around our anthologies and those of all of our colleagues wrapped around our necks? Perhaps our whole libraries? JCS James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Mar 12 03:22:52 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:22:52 -0600 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: Pretentiousness? Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and "gullibility." JL From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 04:53:35 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:53:35 -0500 Subject: "Luck is the residue of design" (1946); Bed-Stuy; SABENA Message-ID: LUCK IS THE RESIDUE OF DESIGN I saw this again in some newspaper today. The American Heritage Dictionary has "Branch Rickey, lecture title, 1950." I don't know what Fred has. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Valley Morning Star Saturday, February 16, 1946 Harlingen, Texas ...tilhei dnv Rlckpv urscil a' Irntith on RESIDUE OF DESIGN morning Ircturr tit 9.....them Rcgardloji OF the outcome OF Ih it karne though the Girds will OF.. Pg. 5, col. 1: The other day Rickey discoursed at length on "luck--the residue of design." SABENA-- Military Rule a Disaster, Says Ex-Naval Chief AllAfrica.com, Africa - Mar 10, 2005 ... 'Sabena' not the Belgian Airline, but it was a late army officer who coined the name. 'Sabena' means such a bloody experience never again in Nigeria.". ... 21 February 1946, The Sporting News, pg. 10, col. 3: _OVER--THE FENCE_ By DAN DANIEL _Deviltry Denounced at Dodger Tech_ SCENE--Lecture Hall at the Dodger Institute of Baseball Technology, Sanford, Fla. Dr. Branch Rickey is speaking. Before him sit 155 young players, 30 faculty members, 15 business managers, 15 minor league pilots, four umpires and eight newspapermen. DR. RICKEY--Our thesis this morning is, "The wages of gin is breath," or "You can't fool the manager." FIRST RECRUIT--Doctor, I never did like gin. You can have all of mine from now on. DR. R.--Young man, when I speak of gin, I mean not only the vile distillation of the innocent juniper berry, but the entire category of intoxicating liquors, the entire list of poisoned oncoctions such as rye, bourbon, Scotch, old fashions and new fashions. FIRST MANAGER (Soot voce)--Methinks the Mahatma knoweth too many names. SECOND MANAGER--Well, he was a catcher on them old, old Yankees, back in the days when Griffith was their manager, and you could get a shot of rye for 15 cents on the corner of Broadway and 156th street, across the street from the Yank park. DR. R.--Boys, eschew liquor! FIFTH ROOKIE--The doctor seems to have a cold. DR. R.--The man who, with besotted brain, stagger forth to his daily duties is he who, when beaten by the clear-eyed opponent, shouts, "Luck, pure luck. That guy wears horseshoes!" FIFTEENTH ROOKIE--I am licked, 1 to 6, by a no-hitter in Putrid Falls last July, and that ain't luck, eh? DR. R.--Luck is the residue of design. TENTH MANAGER--If that ain't double talk, I never heard none. Luck is what you ain't got when you lose. (...) DR. R.--I say once again, that time is o the essence and luck is the residue of design. (...) Dr. R--And I want to leave this thought with you--luck is the residue of design. TENTH MANAGER--Double talk if I ever heard it. BOB FINCH--Ten o'clock, doctor. DR. R.--Scram, everybody! -------------------------------------------------------------- BED-STUY Bed-Stuy didn't like "die" in its slogan? "Proud of it"--how old is that? They worked two years on this?? (FACTIVA) BED-STUY DEBUTS 'PROUD' SLOGAN Hasani Gittens 90 words 11 March 2005 New York Post 21 English (c) 2005 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. Bedford-Stuyvesant will no longer be known as the gritty "Do or Die" section of Brooklyn - from now on, it's "Bed-Stuy and Proud of It." That's the new slogan that was trotted out yesterday during a ceremony at Restoration Plaza on Fulton Street, attended by the likes of local hero Mos Def and other community leaders. The campaign is the result of nearly two years of market research, focus groups and on-the-street interviews by the Tate Group. -------------------------------------------------------------- SABENA SABENA used to mean something else. (GOOGLE NEWS) SABENA-- Military Rule a Disaster, Says Ex-Naval Chief AllAfrica.com, Africa - Mar 10, 2005 ... 'Sabena' not the Belgian Airline, but it was a late army officer who coined the name. 'Sabena' means such a bloody experience never again in Nigeria.". ... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 05:19:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:19:58 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:05:11 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My wife, also a New Yorker, seems always to say /ves/. She was told >about 1970 that a /vaz/ cost more than $25. She too thinks of it as a >joke. > >Maybe the notion of pronunciation related to price developed as a jest; >when it was publicized, many people accepted it as true while others did >not. Of the "believers," a certain percentage (few, I would guess) >actually alter their native pronunciation to accord with the "rule." >Others pass on the information as a "fact" of interest without >consistently altering their own pronunciation. > >It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their >pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and >therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned >customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. > >There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and >"gullibility." Fascinating... the newspaper databases support your theory that the whole thing started off as a joke that was eventually taken seriously by some. One can find discussions about the proper pronunciation of "vase" back to the 1880s, and joking suggestions that the pronunciation variants distinguish price or quality appear soon thereafter... ----- (Frederick, Md.) News, Jan. 6, 1894, p. 4 >From the New York Sun. The later authorities in words have come to the rescue of the public. They say that a straightforward English pronunciation of the word vase is sufficient and desirable. In such a case it rhymes with case or base. In certain circles the object becomes a vaze: if it is a peachblow it is a vahze; and if it is in Boston it is a vawz. The new dictionary makers have smashed one annoying affectation of language. ----- Stevens Point (Wisc.) Daily Journal, Aug. 21, 1907, p. 3 Somebody says that the difference between a vase and a "vahze" is that the latter costs more than $2.50. But a "vahze" that costs five dollars or six dollars is now called an amphora, and both the vahze and the amphora were never intended for use but to be placed on stands or in niches, as evidence that their owner has money to burn. ----- Mansfield (Ohio) News, Oct. 9, 1915, p. 7 Now the vase in question, you must pronounce vahze, because anything that costs over $1.50 is pronounced as above, while if it costs less, you say vase, making it rhyme with lace. Please make a note of the distinction. ----- Indianapolis Star, May 4, 1921, p. 10 Mr. Crane [sc. Ross Crane, head of the extension department of the Art Institute of Chicago] waxed almost lyrical over the beauties of a blue luster vase of exquisite proportions. "Vase -- vahz -- vaz" he said, referring to it. "If it costs over $100 it's a vahz." ----- Newark (Ohio) Advocate, Dec 30, 1922, p. 4 When a vase becomes inestimably precious it is called a vahze, and it looks as though we'd have to think up some other pronunciation for coal. ----- In his "Take My Word For It" column, Frank Colby (and his widow after his death) addressed the issue repeatedly -- sometimes presented as a joke, sometimes as a serious question from a reader: ----- Los Angeles Times, Nov 26, 1940, p. A20 In the United States there apparently is a feeling that if a vase comes from the five-and-ten it is simply a vayss, to rhyme with case, race. But if it is purchased at one of the more expensive shops it is dignified by the title vawz, to rhyme with laws. ----- Los Angeles Times, Feb 20, 1947, p. 10 There is a hackneyed quip to the effect that if it comes from the five-and-ten it's a "vayss." Otherwise it's a "vahz." ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 23, 1949, p. A5 [Repeats the "hackneyed quip" of the 1947 column.] ----- Los Angeles Times, Jul 2, 1952, p. A5 Beverly Hills: When you can spare the space, will you be kind enough to comment on the pronunciation of the word vase? I have been told that any vase which costs less than one dollar is pronounced: vayss; if it costs more than one dollar it is pronounced: vawz. Anything to that? -- L.Y.O. Answer-- Of course not. "Vahz" and "vawz" are Briticisms, and either is a little too lah-de-dah for the average American, regardless of the cost of the ornament. Best usage in the United States is: vayss, to rhyme with "base, lace, case, chase." ----- Syracuse Post Standard, Oct. 30, 1956, p. 19 Boulder: My little son's teacher (second grade) has told him that if a vase is bought at the five-and-dime store (strange name nowadays, when if you get anything there for a dollar, you're lucky), it is pronounced "vayss"; but if it costs more than $5, then the pronunciation is "vahz," or some such queer sounding thing. What's the good word? -- Mrs. E.O. Answer: The idea is ridiculous. In the United States the rhyme with case, race, has been best usage for 150 years. The "ah" and "aw" sounds are Briticisms, and the price has nothing at all to do with the pronunciation. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 12 05:23:05 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:23:05 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Had I but continued to read till I reached the chorus, I would have seen that this chorus *does* fit the tune and that there was a connection between the tune, "Dixie," and the mini-epic poem, "Dixie." I was around seven years old at the time and knew not the art of scanning a text. When I couldn't make the first line fit the rhythm of the song, I erroneously concluded that further reading would be a waste of time. Well, further reading of the poem would have been a waste of time, in any case. But you gnome sane. Thanks, Jon! Now, I shall be able to sleep o' nights. There'll be no more tossing and turning as I try to solve the enigma of the lack of connection between the two "Dixie"s. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike >(1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. >An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the >most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old >article. > >"Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than >Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's >Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. > >It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." > > DIXIE > >Southrons, hear your country call you, >Up, lest worse than death befall you! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- >Let all hearts be now united! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! > >CHORUS: > >Advance the flag of Dixie! > Hurrah! Hurrah! >In Dixie's land we take our stand, > And live or die for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! > >Hear the Northern thunders mutter! >Northern flags in South winds flutter! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Send them back your fierce defiance! >Stamp upon the cursed alliance! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Fear no danger! Shun no labor! >Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, >Let the odds make each heart bolder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >How the South's great heart rejoices >At your cannon's ringing voices! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >For faith betrayed and pledges broken, >Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Strong as lions, swift as eagles, >Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Cut the unequal bonds asunder! >Let them hence each other plunder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Swear upon your country's altar >Never to submit or falter-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Till the spoilers are defeated, >Till the Lord's work is completed! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Halt not till our Federation >Secures among earth's powers its station! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Then at peace and crowned with glory, >Hear your children tell the story! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >If the loved ones weep in sadness, >Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; >Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: big cup of . . . >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >>"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" >> >>http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >>111016501481915117 >> >>Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > >The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man >is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this >re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since >two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to >mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as >in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in >"whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is >probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring >untutored Southrons as objects of derision. > >IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" >that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of >Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to >fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always >considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem >that I bothered to remember is the first word. > >-Wilson > >> >>Are there others? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sat Mar 12 06:55:44 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:55:44 +0800 Subject: A Spanish OED Message-ID: I hope this is not too off-topic. The Real Academia Española (RAE) has just announced that it has begun work on a dictionary based on historical principles. Spanish speakers don’t have a great etymological dictionary like the Chinese Zhongwen Da Cidian and the Hanyu Da Cidian, Morohashi Tetsuji's Chinese-Japanese Dai Kan-Wa Jiten, the Oxford English Dictionary, or the Grande Dizionario de la Lingua Italiana. RAE director García de la Concha says that Spanish and Portuguese are the only Western languages that lack a great historical dictionary. The RAE began working on a historical dictionary in the 1930s, but gave up during the Spanish Civil War. A second attempt was begun in 1946, but Volume I (Letter A) was only published in 1972, and the project fizzled out. At that rate, it would have taken 200 years to finish the dictionary. The word alma (soul) alone filled 24 small-type pages. De la Concha reckons that this time round, the project will be completed in about fifteen years. In an article in this morning’s El País, RAE academician José Antonio Pascual is quoted as saying that RAE plans to work on all the letters of the alphabet simultaneously, taking advantage of new technological tools, especially Web-based tools, as they become available: “When you miss a train, you may find that the next one is a high-speed train, and then you just have to take it.” The project is expected to cost about EUR1.5 million a year. The Spanish government has agreed to help out. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 08:34:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:34:18 -0500 Subject: "Work like you don't need the money..." (1989) Message-ID: I was searching for "favorite cliche/phrase" and found this one. I don't know if Fred has it. (GOOGLE) THE MAKING OF BETTIE PAGE UNCENSORED 3 ... FAVORITE CLICHE PHRASE: Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching. ... www.psychotronic.info/archive/bettie/making_bpu3.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages WORK LIKE YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY--29,700 Google hits, 37,600 Google Groups hits LOVE LIKE YOU'VE NEVER BEEN HURT--44,400 Google hits, 51,300 Google Groups hits DANCE LIKE NOBODY'S WATCHING--24,800 Google hits, 20,900 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Dance Party in Buffalo ... It will be a great time!! :) Charlotte waff... at cs.buffalo.edu Work like you don't need the money. Dance like no one is watching. ... soc.motss - Feb 5 1995, 5:23 pm by Charlotte Wafford - 1 message - 1 author Work like you don't need the money. Dance like no one is watching. Love like you've never been hurt. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Gleaner Saturday, November 16, 2002 Kingston, Kingston ...C3 QUOTE OF THE WEEK U> WORK LIKE YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY, Love LIKE YOU've.....kids leave THE house until YOU start WORK until YOU retire until YOU get.. Pg. C3, col. 1: QUOTE OF THE WEEK Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching. --Anonymous. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Post Standard Saturday, June 14, 1997 Syracuse, New York ...course, with a quote: "DANCE LIKE NO ONE IS WATCHING, love LIKE you've never.....been hurt: "sing LIKE NO ONE IS lIStening, and live LIKE it's.. Pg. B-3, col. 3: After district administrators nominated her for the state's Teacher of the Year award, Wildrick had to fill out a lengthy application and get 10 letters of support. She ended, of course, with a quote: "Dance like no one is watching, love like you've never been hurt; "sing like no one is listening, and live like it's heaven on earth." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Journal Sunday, December 06, 1998 Syracuse, New York ...need the money, AND to LOVE LIKE I've NEVER BEEN HURT. LOVE, Mike Tlie Family.....us all Until we meet one day again We LOVE you AND miss you LOVE, Mom, Dad.. Pg. B-4, col. 2 (Obituaries): In Loving Memory of Ellen Tangedahl You taught me to dance like no one's watching, to work like I don't need the money, and to love like I've never been hurt. Love. Mike (PROQUEST) kend: start: DEAR WEEKEND OVER TO YOU; [6] Jess White. The Guardian. Manchester (UK): Mar 23, 2002. p. 12 Readers of LeAnn Rimes's Q&A (March 16) might have been surprised by her "motto" - "Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like nobody's watching" - thinking that it revealed a degree of depth not illustrated by her other responses. They may be less surprised to discover that it is taken from The Frank Sonata by The Longpigs, lyrics by Crispin Hunt. Jess White London SE9 (PROQUEST) Weekend: DEAR WEEKEND: OVER TO YOU The Guardian. Manchester (UK): Mar 30, 2002. p. 16 Jess White (Dear Weekend, March 23) credits the Longpigs' Crispin Hunt with the lyric, "Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like nobody's watching". It is from a Guy Clark song, Come From The Heart, on his 1989 album Old Friends. It was written by Susanna Clark and Richard Leigh. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 08:51:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:51:52 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Why can't this trial just go away?...It's wine, not sperm, by the way. (GOOGLE NEWS) Teenage accuser: Jackson gave me 'Jesus juice' - Sydney Morning Herald (subscription) - Mar 10, 2005 Jacko 'gave accuser Jesus juice' - NEWS.com.au - Mar 10, 2005 JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Drink survey The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On this topic, try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors "Stop The Church" airs amidst controversy in LA (long) ... Even though I'm not a devout Catholic, just another moderately devout, dizzy, Episcopalian Church Fairy (I *always* finish off the Jesus-juice when I'm on ... soc.motss - Sep 23 1991, 9:48 pm by J.T. Kittredge - 119 messages - 44 authors (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) No hits! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 'The Fisher King' Is Wise Enough to Be Wacky Caryn James. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 22, 1991. p. H13 (1 page): Anne, a video-store owner in leopard-print leggings, thinks the Grail is "Jesus's juice glass." L.A. Raw; It not easy being a black private eye in 1961 California -- especially if you're also a single parent. BLACK BETTY By Walter Mosley. 255 pp. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. $19.95. By Barry Gifford. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1994. p. 294 (1 page): Besides his own, he has two other mouths to feed, those of his adopted children: 15-year-old Jesus (Juice), a mostly mute champion prep-school long-distance runner,... (PROQUEST) Vanity Fair says Jackson gave wine to 13-year-olds; [3 STAR Edition] ROBERT KAHN. Houston Chronicle. Houston, Tex.: Jan 29, 2004. p. 12 : Orth, citing the singer's former business manager, Myung-Ho Lee, writes that only Jackson's "inner people know" his code names for the beverages, adding that it "tells you that the boy spent `quality time' with Michael." The boy and his siblings have said that "all the kids around Michael" knew about "Jesus juice" and that Jackson told them, "Jesus drank it, so it must be good." Orth also says that on at least one other occasion, Jackson allegedly gave alcohol in soda cans to minors. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 09:05:35 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 04:05:35 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: >JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Drink survey >The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >this topic, >try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. Michael McKernan From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sat Mar 12 13:39:47 2005 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:39:47 -0800 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: > > >Her two comrades learned they could drop in, sit on the floor, exchange ideas, and sometimes drink beer or "Jesus juice," their own concoction of grape juice and gin. (29) Emily Toth. Inside Peyton Place: The Life of Grace Metalious (1981). > > > > >> >> From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 14:29:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:29:22 -0800 Subject: big cup of . . . Message-ID: Just a routine part of my educational mission, Wilson. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: big cup of . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Had I but continued to read till I reached the chorus, I would have seen that this chorus *does* fit the tune and that there was a connection between the tune, "Dixie," and the mini-epic poem, "Dixie." I was around seven years old at the time and knew not the art of scanning a text. When I couldn't make the first line fit the rhythm of the song, I erroneously concluded that further reading would be a waste of time. Well, further reading of the poem would have been a waste of time, in any case. But you gnome sane. Thanks, Jon! Now, I shall be able to sleep o' nights. There'll be no more tossing and turning as I try to solve the enigma of the lack of connection between the two "Dixie"s. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike >(1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. >An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the >most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old >article. > >"Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than >Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's >Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. > >It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." > > DIXIE > >Southrons, hear your country call you, >Up, lest worse than death befall you! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- >Let all hearts be now united! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! > >CHORUS: > >Advance the flag of Dixie! > Hurrah! Hurrah! >In Dixie's land we take our stand, > And live or die for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! > >Hear the Northern thunders mutter! >Northern flags in South winds flutter! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Send them back your fierce defiance! >Stamp upon the cursed alliance! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Fear no danger! Shun no labor! >Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, >Let the odds make each heart bolder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >How the South's great heart rejoices >At your cannon's ringing voices! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >For faith betrayed and pledges broken, >Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Strong as lions, swift as eagles, >Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Cut the unequal bonds asunder! >Let them hence each other plunder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Swear upon your country's altar >Never to submit or falter-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Till the spoilers are defeated, >Till the Lord's work is completed! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Halt not till our Federation >Secures among earth's powers its station! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Then at peace and crowned with glory, >Hear your children tell the story! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >If the loved ones weep in sadness, >Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; >Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: big cup of . . . >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >>"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" >> >>http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >>111016501481915117 >> >>Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > >The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man >is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this >re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since >two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to >mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as >in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in >"whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is >probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring >untutored Southrons as objects of derision. > >IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" >that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of >Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to >fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always >considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem >that I bothered to remember is the first word. > >-Wilson > >> >>Are there others? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 14:37:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:37:23 -0800 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The "Purple Jesus" (Everclear and grape Kool-Aid ) was known to me at the University of Tennessee about a quarter century ago. The grad student who told me about it had heard it as an undergrad at a college in Mississippi. The precise phrase "Jesus juice" seems not to be recorded before Jackson's use of it. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry Popik wrote: >JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Drink survey >The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >this topic, >try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. Michael McKernan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 15:27:49 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:27:49 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Also dirt and soil among landscapers. (Soil being the term for the more expensive variant and hence used with clients.) Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Like "pail" and "bucket." > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. > Preston > > wrote: > > >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to > varieties, not languages. > >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms > in the fiction > >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one > brain (except for > >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal > speakers are quick to > >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for > "greazy" and "greasy." > >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and > delicately oiled. > > Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New > York informants > pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? > Regional variants > that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be > reintensionalized (as > the semanticists might say) to mean different things > within one speaker's > dialect. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 12 15:56:24 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:56:24 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Remember Elmer Gantry. I can't find the exact quote from the movie but I did find this. Elmer Gantry (1960) ... Jesus had love in both fists! ... Gantry turns into an evangelizing, Bible Belt revivalist preacher ... At one point, she remembers "he sure rammed the fear of God up me ... www.film.org/elme.html - 13k - Mar 10, 2005 - Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McKernan" To: Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:05 AM Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Barry Popik wrote: > >>JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits >> >> >>(GOOGLE GROUPS) >>Drink survey >>The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >>this topic, >>try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >>alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors > > > In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I > lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). > Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof > available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but > the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into > your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, > I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we > simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest > drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind > getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most > desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. > > Michael McKernan From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 12 16:47:12 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:47:12 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: <16845.69.142.143.59.1110604798.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Me, I say "jam jar." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:10:27 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:10:27 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Michael McKernan wrote: 'And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky?' Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors to this thread. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:15:52 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:15:52 -0800 Subject: outdoor mall Message-ID: caught on the "international male" page (about shopping opportunities for gay men, all over the world) in the March 2005 issue of Instinct, p. 38: ---- Another recent addition to L.A. is the Grove, and outdoor mall, which has your basics (Banana Republic) as well as department stores and more boutiquey shops. ----- surely "outdoor (shopping) mall" has come past my eyes thousands of times, but this was the first time i reflected on it. its meaning is (almost) transparent, so it's unlikely to find a place in dictionaries (and, indeed, it's not in the OED Online). still, it's not without some interest semantically. first, it has the form of a marked, special case: your classic (shopping) mall -- the Galleria, the Mall of America -- is indoors, under a roof. outdoor malls are, well, outdoors and open to the sky. but an outdoor mall isn't just a place to shop that happens to be open to the elements. it shares one crucial element with indoor malls: easy pedestrian access from one store to another, without interference from traffic. so your ordinary "shopping street", like Fifth Avenue, doesn't count as a mall, because of the traffic on the avenue and the side streets. more generally, city "shopping districts" don't count as malls. if, however, the shopping street or district is closed to traffic, then we have a species of outdoor mall, sometimes described as an "outdoor pedestrian mall". (i draw here from some of the 46,900 sites that Google provides for "outdoor mall".) and your ordinary "shopping center", with clusters of stores sprinkled around a gigantic parking lot, doesn't count as a mall, because pedestrian access from one store to another is not, in general, easy. at the San Antonio Center, a few miles south of me, it borders on the harrowing, in fact, and i don't recall anyone ever referring to the place as a "mall". if, however, you clump all the stores together in a central core, with the parking all around it, then you have an outdoor mall. so the Stanford Shopping Center, a mile north of me, which has this arrangement, is commonly referred to as a "mall". in fact, the center's literature refers to it as a "mall", a "shopping mall", an "outdoor mall", and an "outdoor shopping mall". a subtype of this sort of outdoor mall is the "shopping village", which resembles an apartment or condo complex (often on several levels), and indeed not infrequently has housing mixed in with the stores and restaurants and health clubs and barber shops and whatever. (note that all sorts of non-shopping establishments can be located in malls, but if there isn't a significant opportunity for shopping, it's not a mall, but merely some kind of "center". it's like drugstores: you can sell all sorts of things in a drugstore that aren't in any way describable as "drugs", but there has to be a significant presence of things that are.) outdoor malls can be permanent fixtures or temporary events. so, when the main street of Elmira (NY) is closed for the annual Maple Syrup Festival, with booths selling all sorts of things on the street, the event is described as an "outdoor mall". a further subtlety: malls, both indoor and outdoor, are designed to foster not mere shopping, but a "shopping experience". it's expected that visitors to the mall will window-shop, socialize in the common areas, and enter more than one establishment. if a high percentage of visitors do business at just one establishment, you have something that is technically a mall, but not a very good example of one -- the mall equivalent of the penguin in the bird world. such malls are actually very common in the u.s.: this is the ubiquitous (outdoor) "strip mall", where the establishments are arrayed in a row, making access to any one of them easy from the parking area, without inviting walking from one to another (though this is possible). two footnotes. (1) in addition to malls in the real world, there are virtual malls, "web malls" (53,200 raw Google web hits). (2) the hits for "outdoor mall" take in not only uses of this sequence of words parsed as adjectival "outdoor" plus head noun "mall" (as above), but also some parsed as a noun-noun compound meaning 'mall related to the outdoors'; these are malls, real or virtual, devoted to outdoor equipment (for hiking, climbing, barbecuing, etc.) or activities. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), not a mall rat From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:16:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: No-one has yet mentioned any of the metaphorical uses of this (these) word(s). I have heard tell that for some, GREAZY is the metaphorical-use pronunciation, said of a person who might politely be described as 'unctuous', like an over-attentive waiter, or of a people collectively thought of as sweaty and/or unctuous (eg 'greasy Wop' as an insult to Italians, 'greasy Dago' as an insult to the Spanish). For such people, GREASY is apparently the literal-meaning pronunciation, no matter what the quality of the grease. This is all hear-say, since both uses are [gri:si] for me (Standard Southern British English), but can anyone else confirm it? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:19:13 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:19:13 -0500 Subject: Napkins and serviettes Message-ID: My grandmother (born 1920s, Northern England) only says 'serviette' for the thing you use at table. My impression is that 'serviette' for that is in general falling out of use in Britain, just as someone said about Canada, since the use didn't really take in my family after her, but I am still perfectly familiar with the word. Damien Hall Universityof Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 18:50:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:50:16 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical term. Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also dirt and soil among landscapers. (Soil being the term for the more expensive variant and hence used with clients.) Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Like "pail" and "bucket." > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. > Preston > > wrote: > > >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to > varieties, not languages. > >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms > in the fiction > >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one > brain (except for > >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal > speakers are quick to > >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for > "greazy" and "greasy." > >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and > delicately oiled. > > Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New > York informants > pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? > Regional variants > that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be > reintensionalized (as > the semanticists might say) to mean different things > within one speaker's > dialect. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 19:00:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:00:22 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: For some reason, Alison's comment brings to mind a story that I read somewhere decades ago. I believe it was meant to demonstrate the distinction between good and bad taste in the Victorian era. A wealthy lady hires a new downstairs maid. The lady's home, of course, is filled with antiques and priceless objets d'art. Taking a gander at a delicately sculpted Baroque winged Cupid, the innocent girl exclaims, "Oooh, Ma'am! What a lovely statoo of your dead infant!" Such is the power of art to unite us. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me, I say "jam jar." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 19:03:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:03:39 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a "dork"? Never. Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple dorkiness. Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? JL Damien Hall wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Damien Hall Subject: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael McKernan wrote: 'And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky?' Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors to this thread. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 19:42:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:42:09 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: Some fin-de-siècle "vase" humor: ----- (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the store so hurriedly? Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- "Was that what you called it?" "Certainly." (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You should have called it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. ----- Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word v-a-s-e. I don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She simply speaks of all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. ----- And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness, until up spoke The western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" Over three faces a sad smile flew. And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word, Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" And glances around with an anxious thrill Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From dpowell at HEALTHYLIFE.COM Sat Mar 12 19:55:32 2005 From: dpowell at HEALTHYLIFE.COM (Don Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:55:32 -0500 Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches Message-ID: Hi, I am new to the list. I have written a book titled Best Sports Clichés Ever. It has received a good deal of publicity and during interviews I am usually asked if I know the origins of the 1771 clichés in my book. I only know several so any sports cliché origins you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Don Powell From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 19:59:59 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:59:59 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. > >Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? > >JL > >Damien Hall wrote: >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >last >semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with >those of the other contributors to this thread. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:04:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:04:19 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:42:09 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > >Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of >that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. >Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many >years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies >visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, >and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: [snip] Aha, found the original, complete version -- from 1889! (The pronunciation spellings given by Roche are slightly different.) ----- Washington Post, July 31, 1889, p. 4 The V-a-s-e. >From the madding crowd they stood apart, The maidens four and the Work of Art; And none might tell from sight alone In which had Culture ripest grown-- The Gotham Million fair to see, The Philadelphia Pedigree, The Boston mind of Azure hue, Or the soulful soul from Kalamazoo-- For all loved Art in a seemly way, With an earnest soul and a capital A. Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness until up spoke The Western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said: "What a lovely vace!" Over three faces a sad smile flew, And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word. Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahs!" And glances round with an anxious thrill, Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteouslee, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me! "I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vaws!" --James Jeffrey Roche ----- (Also appeared in the Atlanta Constitution, Aug 11, 1889, p. 17, with the attribution, "James Jeffrey Roche, in the Post-Express.") This was apparently a famous piece of verse at the time: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Dec 25, 1904, p. A2 James Jeffrey Roche, author of "The Sorrows of Sap'ed," is as well known for his verse as for his prose. His first humorous success was a poem called "The Vase," which appeared in a New York paper twenty years ago, and was widely read all over the country. ----- --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:23:14 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The line between amelioration and covert prestige is surely not too carefully drawn. How can we tell when a word used by insiders (in your face covert prestige, sometimes called reclamation) has been ameliorated in a more general sense by that use? Even after their reclamation, they still seem very context-bound (where by context I specifically mean to refer to user identity). I hope our empirical observations will not overwhelm our need for explanatory theorizing. I shudder to think we would turn out to be the butterfly collectors some of our colleagues in other subfields like to suggest we are. dInIs (who still enjoys catchin them linguistic butterflies) >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >>"dork"? Never. >> >>Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >>dorkiness. >> >>Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? >> >>JL >> >>Damien Hall wrote: > >>Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >>last >>semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >>herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >>proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >>went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >>with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >>vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to >>chime with >>those of the other contributors to this thread. >> >>Damien Hall >>University of Pennsylvania > > >Michael McKernan -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 20:27:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:27:42 EST Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Rapdict.org; everyone misses the joke??) Message-ID: http://www.rapdict.org/Jesus_juice Allegedly a drink which Michael Jackson drinks himself, and plies on his young "guests". Jesus Juice is cheap White Wine + Coke. See also Jesus blood. Referenced by Eminem: "Here, I make Jesus juice, take a sip of this" -- Eminem (Ass Like That) [1] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/eminem/encore/ass_like.mnm.txt) ... ... OK, maybe Larry Horn was busy. But Ben Zimmer and all the rest? You set these things up with an easy lob, and no one hits it? Will William Safire miss it, too? The Michael Jackson trial went like this. "Jesus juice?" responded the defense attorney. "It was nothing more than soda, and I can prove it!" "Soda!" snickered some reporters. The defense attorney got out the Dictionary of American Regional English, volume four, letters P-Sk. A hush went over the courtroom. "Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury," said the defense attorney. "My client, Michael Jackson, is the King of Pop." From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 12 20:30:16 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:30:16 -0500 Subject: Napkins and serviettes In-Reply-To: <1110651553.423332a17ad10@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >My grandmother (born 1920s, Northern England) only says 'serviette' for the >thing you use at table. My impression is that 'serviette' for that is in >general falling out of use in Britain, just as someone said about Canada, >since >the use didn't really take in my family after her, but I am still perfectly >familiar with the word. > >Damien Hall >Universityof Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~~~ I would be very surprised to hear anyone actually say "serviette" in the states. It was an unknown expression to me when I first noticed it (fifty years ago) in Fowler's list of genteelisms that he was recommending "normal" replacements for. I have heard it in the UK, but don't ever remember hearing it in France. (I don't really see why "napkin" should be avoided in UK, anyway, since what we call "diapers" are usually called "nappies" over there.) On the other thread, I'm a GREASY speaker & GREAZY makes me feel quite queasy. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:28:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:28:33 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Damien Hall: > >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd >for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came >to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a >'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that >annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would >have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British >and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about >'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors >to this thread. Jonathan Lighter: > >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. Michael McKernan: > >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). "Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also "theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). Compare also: "geek pride": 10,500 "nerd pride": 3,940 "dork pride": 641 --Ben Zimmer From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 21:23:39 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:23:39 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google >search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to >someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate >to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for >grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. > >There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and >those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* >geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). > >"Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits >lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty >common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also >"theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", >there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). > >Compare also: > >"geek pride": 10,500 >"nerd pride": 3,940 >"dork pride": 641 Good. Now we're getting somewhere. I used 'pride' based on Jonathan's formulation: >>Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >>"dork"? Never. Ben argues for self-deprecating usage of all of these terms; ok with me. But in my (limited) experience, self-deprecation often is a tool to hide 'pride' in an ability or interest which is seen as low-status, especially in high school/youth culture. I suggest that Ben's data on 'band dork' and 'music dork', other arts/language usages, all show as much covert 'pride' as put-down. Many high school musicians I know, for instance, are quite proud of their musical abilities, although they don't choose to express this pride in all social settings. Likewise, Ben's data on 'grammar geek/nerd' as also 'deprecating: well, we're seeing here a certain degree of synonymy, with nerd and dork showing a substantial degree of interchangeability with geek, win/place/show. If there were good data, I suppose I could accept dork as term of choice for low-status interests, but then, why do Ben's data show such high levels of 'grammar geek'? Alliteration? If, as Ben claims, only 'computer-geek/nerd' has been rehabilitated, then it's not really the geek/nerd, is it? the 'computer' carries the status, and can anyone really believe that 'computer dork', should it come into use, wouldn't have the same status? OK, here are some data: 'computer dork' 3,740 Google hits So, do I hear an assertion that 'computer dorks' are unrehabilitated, non-ameliorated, and clearly lower status than 'computer geeks' or 'computer nerds'? I feel a need to repeat that I have no personal stake in the rehabilitation of the dork. I may be a dork; if so, I'm a proud one. But I am interested in both empirical studies and theoretical analysis of these terms. So please don't take offense if I question assertions. BTW, is there something to be said about English four-letter (slang) words beginning with a consonant and ending in 'k'? Geek, dork, jerk, wonk, dink, gook, etc.? Michael McKernan From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 21:37:34 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Some additional google data, FWIW: computer geek 384,000 computer nerd 112,000 computer nurd 335 computer dork 3,740 computer jerk 1,100 computer wonk 596 computer dink 113 computer gook 81 including: Rusty and Tony's World ... I am a "computer gook", not quite smart enough to be a "geek". We met quite by accident four years ago. We were both playing bingo online. ... tonysgirl.bravepages.com/home/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Briefly scanning the 'gook' data, I noticed the item above, which does clearly specify a status hierarchy. But the other 'gook' hits seem to be synonymous with the geek/nerd mainstream. (A few 'gooks' refer to corrupted output, probably short for 'gobbledygook'.) Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 22:11:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:11:52 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some fin-de-si�cle "vase" humor: ----- (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the store so hurriedly? Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- "Was that what you called it?" "Certainly." (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You should have called it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. ----- Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word v-a-s-e. I don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She simply speaks of all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. ----- And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness, until up spoke The western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" Over three faces a sad smile flew. And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word, Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" And glances around with an anxious thrill Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" ----- --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 22:22:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:22:33 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My powerful theoretical argument in this case is "What I say goes." This appears to be similar to the theory that informs your own position. Frankly I would prefer to be called a geek or a nerd rather than a dork, though certainly I have been called all three, particularly after blind dates. Shall we step outside to settle this ? JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. > >Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? > >JL > >Damien Hall wrote: >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >last >semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with >those of the other contributors to this thread. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 22:53:21 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:53:21 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My powerful theoretical argument in this case is "What I say goes." > >This appears to be similar to the theory that informs your own position. >Frankly I would prefer to be called a geek or a nerd rather than a dork, >though certainly I have been called all three, particularly after blind >dates. > >Shall we step outside to settle this ? If the google data I just posted are anything like a reliable portrait of current speech practices, then it seems that if you can claim computer status, you're just about 100 times more likely to be called a 'computer geek' than a 'computer dork.' For nerd, the ratio drops to just under 33 times more likely than dork. Hope this soothes the cyberwaters, since it's snowing rather hard, outside here. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 23:00:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:00:10 EST Subject: "Monday's Child" (1836) Message-ID: The "Monday's child is fair in face..." poem has been discussed on the American Name Society list. I don't know what Fred Shapiro (Yale Dictionary of Quotations) will have, but the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has A. E. Bray, from 1838. I found the same author's work, dated 1836; unfortunately, I couldn't find any earlier. I looked all over "children's poetry" of this period. ... ... (GOOGLE) Friday's Child at Everything2.com ... Monday's child is fair of face Tuesday's child is full of grace Wednesday's child is full ... I could find cites Traditions of Devonshire (AE Bray), 1838 (which is ... www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=847519 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) first day of the week [WAS: A Language Puzzle] ... Monday's child is fair of face, Tuesday's child is full of grace, Wednesday's child is ... The earliest version they knew of was 1838, and instead of 'the Sabbath ... alt.english.usage - Jun 22 2001, 3:10 pm by Donna Richoux - 277 messages - 77 authors ... ... ... A DESCRIPTION OF THE PART OF DEVONSHIRE BORDERING ON THE TAMY AND THE TAVY; ITS NATURAL HISTORY, MANNERS, CUSTOMS, SUPERSTITIONS, SCENERY, ANTIQUITIES, BIOGRAPHY OF EMINENT PERSONS, &c. &c. IN A SERIES OF LETTERS TO ROBERT SOUTHEY, ESQ. BY MRS. BRAY IN THREE VOLUMES.--VOL.II LONDON: JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE STREET MDCCCXXXVI. (1836--ed.) ... ... Pg. 287: The fortunes of children are likewise considered to be very much regulated by the day on which they were born. Here is a poetical adage on the subject common in our town:-- "Monday's child is fair in face, Tuesday's child is full of grace, Wednesday's child is full of woe, Thursday's child has far to go, Pg. 288: Friday's child is loving and giving, Saturday's child works hard for its living; And a child that's born on a Christmas day, Is fair and wise, good and gay." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:14:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:14:15 -0800 Subject: substitute for = replace with Message-ID: Here's another example of this usage, which I continue to find curious. Karen Spears Zacharias, the author of "Hero Mama" (N.Y.: Morrow, 2004), is in her mid-40s and grew up in Kingsport, Tennessee. During an appearance at The New School for Social Research on Jan. 26, she said the following about her mother: "She made bad decisions....She substituted intimacy for sex." Zacharias "meant" just the opposite. A tape of her appearance is showing this weekend on BookTV. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Mar 12 23:22:21 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:22:21 -0600 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: <20050312221152.94447.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I grew up pronouncing 'vase' to rhyme with 'paws' (Saskatchewan, Canada, heart of the Prairies; born 1939) and was probably grown up before I discovered that there was any other pronun. But I wouldn't rhyme it with 'because', as in the Roche poem, since I pronounce the latter word to rhyme with 'buzz'. I had always thought that the story about the pronun being related to the price was a made-up story, and have assumed that people telling it were doing so tongue-in-cheek -- with maybe just a hint of uncertainty in some cases (i.e. that the person thinks maybe they should be pronouncing the word differently in a given situation). The Roche poem demonstrates that there is a long history of social oneupmanship tied up in this one word, but it doesn't show that different pronuns are actually used to indicate the quality of a particular vase. The variants of 'vase' are surely a totally different thing from something like, say, the pronun of 'offense' and 'defense' with initial stress in a sports context, as opposed to its usual pronun in other contexts. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > > > That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are > possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've > never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. > > Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------- > > Some fin-de-siècle "vase" humor: > > ----- > (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 > Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the > store so hurriedly? > Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- > "Was that what you called it?" > "Certainly." > (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You > should have called > it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. > ----- > Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 > Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word > v-a-s-e. I > don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. > Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She > simply speaks of > all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. > ----- > > And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word > For It" column: > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > > Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct > pronunciation of > that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. > Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse > written many > years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four > young ladies > visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, > Philadelphia, > and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and > beautiful vase: > > Long they worshiped, but no one broke > The sacred stillness, until up spoke > The western one from the nameless place, > Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" > Over three faces a sad smile flew. > And they edged away from Kalamazoo. > But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred > To crush the stanger with one small word, > Deftly hiding reproof in praise, > She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" > But brief her unworthy triumph when > The lofty one from the home of Penn, > With the consciousness of two grandpapas, > Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" > And glances around with an anxious thrill > Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. > But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, > And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, > I did not catch your remark because > I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:19:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:19:17 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damien Hall: > >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd >for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came >to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a >'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that >annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would >have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British >and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about >'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors >to this thread. Jonathan Lighter: > >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. Michael McKernan: > >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). "Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also "theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). Compare also: "geek pride": 10,500 "nerd pride": 3,940 "dork pride": 641 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:24:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:24:11 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Gook" has been used in the general sense of "simpleton or dork" for a long time, but its recent minor resurgence seems to stem from youthful familiarity with the xenophobic term. Whether by extension or misunderstanding, I do not know. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some additional google data, FWIW: computer geek 384,000 computer nerd 112,000 computer nurd 335 computer dork 3,740 computer jerk 1,100 computer wonk 596 computer dink 113 computer gook 81 including: Rusty and Tony's World ... I am a "computer gook", not quite smart enough to be a "geek". We met quite by accident four years ago. We were both playing bingo online. ... tonysgirl.bravepages.com/home/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Briefly scanning the 'gook' data, I noticed the item above, which does clearly specify a status hierarchy. But the other 'gook' hits seem to be synonymous with the geek/nerd mainstream. (A few 'gooks' refer to corrupted output, probably short for 'gobbledygook'.) Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Mar 12 23:44:49 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:44:49 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: <20050312231917.12158.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than your typical academic listserv. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:47:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:47:51 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Jesse, your requirements for excitement are high indeed. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than your typical academic listserv. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 12 23:48:11 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:48:11 -0800 Subject: substitute for = replace with In-Reply-To: <20050312231415.4499.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Here's another example of this usage, which I continue to find curious. > > Karen Spears Zacharias, the author of "Hero Mama" (N.Y.: Morrow, > 2004), is in her mid-40s and grew up in Kingsport, Tennessee. During > an appearance at The New School for Social Research on Jan. 26, she > said the following about her mother: > > "She made bad decisions....She substituted intimacy for sex." > > Zacharias "meant" just the opposite. well, yes. a nice example of reversed "substitute" (in denison's terms) from the u.s. with "with" or "by" it would have been much less exciting. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 00:00:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:00:39 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: So when you say, "Bekuz it's a vawz," you mean what I mean when I I say "Bakawz it's a vahz." Somebody must be saying "Bekaze it's a vaze." Or is "bekaze" just an eye-dialect artifact ? JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I grew up pronouncing 'vase' to rhyme with 'paws' (Saskatchewan, Canada, heart of the Prairies; born 1939) and was probably grown up before I discovered that there was any other pronun. But I wouldn't rhyme it with 'because', as in the Roche poem, since I pronounce the latter word to rhyme with 'buzz'. I had always thought that the story about the pronun being related to the price was a made-up story, and have assumed that people telling it were doing so tongue-in-cheek -- with maybe just a hint of uncertainty in some cases (i.e. that the person thinks maybe they should be pronouncing the word differently in a given situation). The Roche poem demonstrates that there is a long history of social oneupmanship tied up in this one word, but it doesn't show that different pronuns are actually used to indicate the quality of a particular vase. The variants of 'vase' are surely a totally different thing from something like, say, the pronun of 'offense' and 'defense' with initial stress in a sports context, as opposed to its usual pronun in other contexts. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > > > That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are > possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've > never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. > > Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------- > > Some fin-de-si�cle "vase" humor: > > ----- > (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 > Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the > store so hurriedly? > Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- > "Was that what you called it?" > "Certainly." > (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You > should have called > it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. > ----- > Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 > Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word > v-a-s-e. I > don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. > Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She > simply speaks of > all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. > ----- > > And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word > For It" column: > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > > Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct > pronunciation of > that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. > Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse > written many > years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four > young ladies > visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, > Philadelphia, > and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and > beautiful vase: > > Long they worshiped, but no one broke > The sacred stillness, until up spoke > The western one from the nameless place, > Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" > Over three faces a sad smile flew. > And they edged away from Kalamazoo. > But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred > To crush the stanger with one small word, > Deftly hiding reproof in praise, > She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" > But brief her unworthy triumph when > The lofty one from the home of Penn, > With the consciousness of two grandpapas, > Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" > And glances around with an anxious thrill > Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. > But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, > And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, > I did not catch your remark because > I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 13 00:16:14 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:16:14 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: >On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. > >Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >your typical academic listserv. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise is cruising for a bruising. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 03:31:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:31:56 -0500 Subject: Polly Wolly Doodle (1883); Ham 'n' Eggs Message-ID: I looked at the Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin and Polly Wolly Doodle all day. -------------------------------------------------------------- POLLY WOLLY DOODLE Again, a folk song that seems to just come from nowhere. Maybe the next HDAS will have "polly wolly doodle." April 1939, Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin, vol. V, no. 2, pg. 41: Polly Wally Doodle (...) Pg. 42: Oh, I went down south for to see my Sal, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day, My Sally is a spunky gal, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day. CHORUS Fare thee well, fare thee well, Fare thee well my fairy fay, For I'm going to Louisiana, For to see my Susy Anna, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day. (GOOGLE) http://www.sois.uwm.edu/dl/sheet_music_site/Composer_bio_page.htm Hills, William H. 1859-1930 Compiler of popular songs. Published Student Songs (1881) which included My Bonnie. His third edition published in 1883 contained Polly Wolly Doodle and There is a Tavern in the Town. (GOOGLE) Shirley Temple: Polly Wolly Doodle Shirley Temple. Song Lyrics. Polly Wolly Doodle (Littlest Rebel 1935). Lyrics/Music S.Clare & B.DeSylva. Picture: Original Sheet Music ... www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/8038/1polywol.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: College songs : a collection of new and popular songs of the American colleges / Author(s): Waite, Henry Randall,; 1845-1909. Publication: Boston :; Oliver Ditson, Edition: New and enl. ed. Year: 1887 Description: 1 vocal score (128 p.) ;; 26 cm. Language: English Music Type: Songs Contents: A-roving -- Alma mater O -- Angel Gabriel -- Ba-be-bi-bo-bu -- Bavarian yodel -- Bingo (As sung at Brown) -- Bingo (marching song) -- The bold fisherman -- Bring back my Bonnie to me -- The bull-dog -- Carve dat possum -- Clementine -- The chapel -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Constantinople -- Crambambuli -- Crow song -- The Dutch company -- Dutch warbler -- Emmet's lullaby -- Fair Harvard -- Farewell for ever -- Forsaken -- Finiculi, finicula -- De golden wedding -- Good-night, ladies -- Go down, Moses -- Golden slippers -- Good-bye, my lover, good-bye -- I'll hear the trumpet sound -- In the morning by the bright light -- The Irish christening -- It's a way we have at Old Harvard -- Jilted -- Jingle Bells -- The Lauterbach maiden -- Maiden of the fleur de lys -- Mary had a little lamb -- Mary and Martha -- McSorley's twins -- Meerschaum pipe.; A merry heart -- Michael Roy -- Mush, mush -- More and more -- Nellie was a lady -- Oh, dem golden slippers -- Oh, my darling Clementine -- Old Noah he did build an ark -- Over the bannister -- Owl and the pussy cat -- Paddy Duffy's cat -- Polly-wolly-doodle -- Peanut song -- The quilting party -- Rig-a-jig -- Roll, Jordan, roll -- Rosalie -- Rumsty ho! -- Serenade -- Shool -- Soldier's farewell -- Solomon Levi -- The Spanish cavalier -- Steal away -- Swing low, sweet chariot -- There is a tavern in the town -- There is music in the air -- Thou art my own love -- Three crows -- Troubadour song -- To the bravest -- Turn back Pharaoh's army -- The two roses -- Upidee -- Uralio -- Vive l'amour -- The waterfall -- Way up on the mountain-top-tip-top -- What beams so bright -- Where would I be -- The young lover. -------------------------------------------------------------- HAM 'N' EGGS I couldn't find anything else on this one. Songs about food are of interest to me. October 1940, Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin, vol. VI, no. 3, pg. 39: Ham 'n' Eggs Mrs. Schaupp says that this song was sung by several boys in the Nebraska State Reformatory for men. "They said it was sung in prisons all over the country. There is also a verse on the sewing-machine, which none of them could remember, so they used to substitute the word 'sewing-machine'in the second stanza." The melody of this song is the same as that used as the theme song of the radio program advertising Barbasol. This program, I believe, was not started until several years after Mrs. Schaupp learned the song in 1923. Ham 'n' eggs, ham 'n' eggs, I like my ham fried good an' brown, I like my eggs turned up-side down. Ham 'n' eggs, ham 'n' eggs, Flip 'em, flop 'em, Better not drop 'em, Ham 'n' eggs. Automobile, automobile, Automobile, she run so fas', Can't see nothin' but a pane o' glass, Automobile, auotmobile, Unk-cu-cu-cuk-chuck, unk-cu-cu-cuk-chuck, Automobile. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 03:47:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:47:00 -0500 Subject: "Sucking Cider through a Straw" (1874) Message-ID: "Sucking cider through a straw" (a tongue-twister!) another "unknown" American folk song. The Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin (April 1939) doesn't give an author, either. Newspaperarchive seems to get us close. However, I got the below message that two 1874 cites aren't available. (GOOGLE) KIDiddles: Song Lyrics: Sippin' Cider Through a Straw Sippin' Cider Through a Straw. Echo Song Written By: Unknown Copyright Unknown. The prettiest girl (The prettiest girl) I ever saw ... www.kididdles.com/mouseum/s051.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) Sipping Cider through a Straw - Trad and Anon (Lyrics and Chords) ARTIST: Trad and Anon TITLE: Sipping Cider through a Straw Lyrics and Chords The prettiest girl (the prettiest girl) I ever saw (I ever saw) Was sippin' ci ... www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/sippingc.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Ohio Democrat Friday, July 03, 1874 New Philadelphia, Ohio ...girl I ever sAw "WAs sucking CIDER THROUGH A strAw. ThAt question, "Where.....AmericAn, ''of A pAtent obtAined THROUGH this office lor A physiciAn.. Portsmouth Times Saturday, May 03, 1873 Portsmouth, Ohio ...yo-orchArd borrowing" Apple0 CIDER THROUGH A strAw. Or you would sco b'wc.....hAirs 1 Give over lookin wildly Oiit THROUGH the vistA of A boundless future.. Coshocton Democrat Tuesday, July 28, 1874 Coshocton, Ohio ...girl I ever sAw WAs sucking CIDER THROUGH A strAw. The other dAy. A young.....not do it unless the temperAnce people THROUGH the LegislAture so enActed.. Dixon Telegraph Wednesday, May 21, 1873 Dixon, Illinois ...borrowing" Apples, or sAmpling CIDER THROUGH A strAw, wo just hint thAt you.....shut lin light AwAy, WhAt gloom Down THROUGH our leAfy cAliocy DArt myriAd.. When I tried to open two "sucking cider" 1874 hits, I got this--which sucks: Newspaper Image Not Viewable We apologize for this error. The newspaper page you are trying to access is currently not available. Our staff has been notified and we are working to correct this issue. If you would still like to contact our customer service department, you may email us at: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 13 03:55:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:55:25 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Dork >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. >> >>Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >>your typical academic listserv. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I >surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) >good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds >to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share >of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise >is cruising for a bruising. > >Michael McKernan "Cruising for a bruising"? IMO, such a person is aching for a breaking. ;-) -Wilson Gray From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 13 03:57:30 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:57:30 -0500 Subject: "Sucking Cider through a Straw" (1874) Message-ID: Barry, this memoir excerpt is from roughly 1830-40, but not published until 1894, but I thought you might appreciate the description of the activity in the song. >I have very pleasant recollections of the neighborhood cider mill. There >were two rollers formed of logs carefully rounded and four or five feet >long, set closely together in an upright position in a rough frame, a long >crooked sweep coming from one of them to which a horse was hitched and >pulled it round and round, One roller had mortices in it, and projecting >wooden teeth on the other fitted into these, so that, as they both slowly >turned together, the apples were crushed, A huge box of coarse slats, >notched and locked together at the corners, held a vast pile of the >crushed apples while clean rye straw was added to strain the flowing juice >and keep the cheese from spreading too much; then the ponderous screw and >streams of delicious cider. Sucking cider through a long rye straw >inserted in the bung-hole of a barrel was just the best of fun, and cider >taken that way "awful" good while it was new and sweet. http://www.death-valley.us/dv49/dv49_3.html@@@Death Valley in '49 [nb: url needs to have the final text pasted in!] By Williams Lewis Manly; Important chapter of California pioneer history. The autobiography of a pioneer, detailing his life from a humble home in the Green Mountains to the gold mines of California; and particularly reciting the sufferings of the band of men, women and children who gave "Death Valley" its name. PUBLISHED San José, California, The Pacific tree and vine co., 1894. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 07:03:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:03:41 EST Subject: San Man; OT: NY Post can't add without Grant Barrett! Message-ID: OT: NY POST CAN'T ADD WITHOUT GRANT BARRETT ... The Nets got clobbered again by Miami. The final score was 90-65. Heat over Nets.So let's look at today's newspaper and see how much they lost by. God. this is bad! Give Grant Barrett a job! ... 13 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 50: _Nets melt down in 35-point loss_ ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SAN MAN ... The Sunday NY Times, city section, has an articvle on NYC's sanitation men, but doesn't include the slang angle like the article Grant contributed to. ... Mr. San Man? ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/thecity/index.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/thecity/index.html) _The Collectors_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/nyregion/thecity/13garb.html) By FIELD MALONEY The 'san men' know their work holds no one in thrall. But as they hoist 3.6 million tons of trash a year, and as their 75th birthday passes with little notice, a tip of the hat would be nice, thanks. ... ... SAN MAN + SANITATION--68 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit ... ... (GOOGLE) _Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream_ (http://persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html) . Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream. Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream Make him the cutest that I've ever seen Give him two lips like roses ... persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html - 3k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FYznfBLggocJ:persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html+"Mr.+san dman"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 07:11:29 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:11:29 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) Message-ID: Voo Doo, MIT's humor magazine, has some old issues in an online archive: . The issues are in PDF files with searchable text (though there's no search facility and the text hasn't been indexed by Google). The 1962 slang list below has some interesting entries -- for instance, "grungy", antedating OED's 1965 cite. Also, "tool(ing)", "gronk", and "hairy", each of which has an entry in the Jargon File: http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/tool.html http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/gronk.html http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hairy.html ----- http://web.mit.edu/voodoo/www/archive/pdfs/1962-Jan.pdf Voo Doo Magazine (MIT), Jan. 1962, pp. 10-11 Here it is, gang! Cut it out and send it home to Mom, or to the hometown girlfriend. It will help them to understand your peculiar way of talking, when you get home, for it is ..... Voo Doo Illustrated Dictiontary [sic] of MIT Tooling - The ingestion of useless information. Tool - One who tools excessively. Horny - Being desirous of Female companionship. Grungy - Grubbiness to an extent known only to Techmen and Hoboes. IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute Has The Finest Professors" Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence. Flush - At M.I.T., this is the antithesis of "bomb"....those who advocate an end to nuclear tests should therefore consider the alternative. Screw - A fastener having helical threads and a slotted head. Gronk - To adjust a device so as to render its original function inoperable; i.e., to "gronk" a pay telephone. Springfield Oval - a type of sandpaper currently being used for printing purposes by the tech. Bee and Pea - Buildings and Power, sometimes erroneously called "Physical "Plant." Bull - An animal secretly harbored in building 14, the mascot of the Humanities Department. The Ninth Level - As anyone who has tried to dial this on an Institute extension has discovered, The Ninth Level is a level of communication attained only by one Ludwig Beethoven. Flunking Out - a system whereby M.I.T. makes room in the dorms for next year's freshmen. Hairy - Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. ----- -- Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 09:32:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:32:45 EST Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." ... The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, and both involve Brooklyn. ... Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of Trade Jargon. ... I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a spread from the Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage pitches? ... I'll try to check "mungo" and "hero sandwich" at the Brooklyn Historical Society Library. It's now open "by appointment." It's been closed for renovation for what, five years, ten years now? ... The continuing digitization of the Brooklyn Eagle will help, but don't hold your breath on that. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 2 June 1984, New York Times, pg. 27: Other furnishings are of the "mungo" variety, a term used by sanitation workers for objects retrieved from the trash. (...) Part of the show will be "San-man's Place," an actual outdated sanitation office moved piece by piece to the gallery. ... ... ... _http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/mongo/_ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/mongo/) mongo n. material or goods salvaged from items intended for disposal. _English._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C112/) _NYC._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C54/) _Slang._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C36/) (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C8/) _United States._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C8/) New evidence from the unpublished Lexicon of Trade Jargon, compiled by the Works Progress Administration, has a form of this word from before 1938: mungo, referring to the person who salvages discarded items, rather than the things being salvaged. This term appears to be specific to New York City. 1984 James Brooke New York Times (Sept. 10) “Sanitation Art Showings Brighten Workers’ Image” p. B4: Other exhibits at the gallery were a 1,500-square-foot transparent map showing the locations of Sanitation Department offices; three piles of televisions on which videotapes of sanitation workers were shown, and an old, department-section office furnished in “mongo,” discarded furniture salvaged by sanitation men. 1996 Mierle Laderman Ukeles (http://www.hints.hu/backinfo/sanitationart295.pdf) (Spring) “Interview: Mierle Laderman Ukeles on Maintenance and Sanitaton Art” p. 20 @ _Dialogues in Public Art_ (http://www.hints.hu/backinfo/sanitationart295.pdf) (2001) Tom Finkelpearl: Besides furniture and bathroom, I crammed the section with a decor of “Mongo,” items workers selected from the waste flow, that they refused to put in the truck—art, religious figures, dolls. 2004 Jane and Michael Stern _New York Times_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/books/review/20STERNL.html) (June 20) “‘Mongo’: I Love Trash”: “Mongo” is slang for garbage salvaged from streets and trash heaps. Any rubbish can qualify, whether it’s edible, wearable, useful or indescribable. ... ... _http://www.brooklynhistory.org/library_collections.html_ (http://www.brooklynhistory.org/library_collections.html) Subsequently the Library will be open to readers on an _appointment_ (mailto:reference at brooklynhistory.org) basis Not all collections are on-site and available for use; please carefully read the following: Available book collections : Brooklyn, New York City, and Long Island local history, most of the printed genealogy materials, and most Brooklyn maps and atlases. Archives and Manuscripts : NOT available, pending a staff appointment. The image database is available by appointment. Fee schedules and copyright permission forms are available from the _photo archivist_ (mailto:jannitto at brooklynhistory.org) click on “photo archivist” or call 718.222.4111 X224. We regret that we can ONLY accept reference inquiries at the present time by e-mail and surface mail as we prepare the collections for full research use. Please allow one month for a response. We are unable to accept telephoned reference requests at present. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 10:18:30 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:18:30 EST Subject: Harvey Wallbanger (1968, 1969) Message-ID: Some new cites here. ... .... (OED) In full Harvey Wallbanger. A cocktail made from vodka or gin and orange juice. 1970 Gourmet Nov. 9 (Advt.), Harvey Wallbanger. Fill tall glass with ice cubes. Fill full with orange juice. Add 1 oz. Vodka. 1972 New Yorker 30 Sept. 41/2 A wallbanger is a vodka or gin or whatever you please with orange juice. 1981 T. HEALD Murder at Moose Jaw xi. 130 The Mounties..ordered a brace of Harvey Wallbangers. Ibid. 131 Smith took a draught of Wallbanger. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Ninety Chili Aficionados Chow Down_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513089432&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1110708130&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 22, 1968. p. I14 (1 page) : Instead of champagne or even beer, which also went undrunk, the chili clansmen decided they preferred Harvey Wallbangers. ... A "Harvey Wallbanger," Doner explained, "consists of two shots of vofka, one shot of Galliano (an Italian liqueur) ice and orange juice. ... "As to its origin, there was supposed to be a guy in Laguna Beach who ran out of everything at a party except vodka, Galliano and orange juice. When everybody left, Harvey was banging his head against the wall." ... ... _Display Ad 123 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=577465922&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111070 8751&clientId=65882) Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 23, 1969. p. W4 (1 page) FAMOUS Award Winning Liquor Stores ... HARVEY WALLBANGER The "Now" Mixed Drink ... 8 oz. O.J. 1 oz. Vodka Stir with ice Splash in 1/2 oz. Galliano (Illustration of "Harvey"--ed.) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 11:10:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:10:07 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:32:45 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >... >The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and >1995, and both involve Brooklyn. >... >Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He >noted that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of >Trade Jargon. >... >I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if >it's from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >spread from the Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Why couldn't it have derived from "mung" = 'mixture, mess; messy substance'? This is the presumed origin for "mungo" = 'cheap fabric made from waste wool and rags'. But I can see how the local presence of a colorfully named pitcher could have influenced the "-o" formation. (Encarta suggests that the fabric sense of "mungo" may have been formed "on the model of the Scottish forename Mungo".) The earliest cite I can find for the salvaging sense of "mungo" is from 1963... ----- New York Times, May 30, 1963, p. 14 A Sanitation foreman found $6,000 worth of mungo yesterday. Mungo is the sanitation workers' term for salvageable items found in refuse. ----- New York Times, Jan 2, 1972, p. 13 Among the scuba enthusiasts are a group known as Mungo divers, whom Mr. Miranda described as seagoing scavengers who search for copper and brass to sell to junk dealers. ----- New York Times, May 24, 1974, p. 29 The men said that one reason the bulk collection was so meager was that "mungo-pickers" (slang for scavengers) had carted off the good furniture the night before. ----- New York Times, Jul 21, 1977, p. 50 Jason Martinelli's idea of a night on the town is to jump into his mungo-picking outfit, jump into a commodious refuse bin, and just root around in there collecting "fantastic, free, found material" with which to decorate his apartment. In a word, garbage. To Mr. Martinelli and others in the city's subculture of scavengers the term is "mungo," however and the picking is easy-- once you know the rules. ----- --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Mar 13 13:40:10 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: <3401.69.142.143.59.1110697889.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > Has The Finest Professors" Hahaha. This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". See also http://www.mit.edu/people/mjbauer/ihtfp.html , which claims 1960 for MIT use (though well-established then) and 1956 for the Air Force (is this from Heflin? I'm out of town and don't have my books handy). (HDAS has it to 1969 in Army use.) Can Fred illuminate the usage? Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 13:53:47 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:53:47 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: <200503131340.j2DDeBvO019257@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > > Has The Finest Professors" > > Hahaha. > > This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A > History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian > T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". I Hate This Fucking Place. When I was a student at Harvard Law School, it was common to refer to it as HFLS (Harvard Fucking Law School). Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Mar 13 13:55:43 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:55:43 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 08:53:47AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > > > Has The Finest Professors" > > > > Hahaha. > > > > This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A > > History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian > > T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". > > I Hate This Fucking Place. Er, yes, I thought it wasn't even necessary to express that this was the real expansion ;-) Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 16:27:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:27:57 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Somebody's gonna be hurtin' for certain. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Dork >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. >> >>Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >>your typical academic listserv. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I >surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) >good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds >to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share >of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise >is cruising for a bruising. > >Michael McKernan "Cruising for a bruising"? IMO, such a person is aching for a breaking. ;-) -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 17:44:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:44:17 -0500 Subject: the big picture (1926) Message-ID: >From Safire's "On Language" column today, regarding _The Big Picture: The New Logic of Money and Power in Hollywood_ by Edward Jay Epstein: ----- http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/magazine/13ONLANGUAGE.html I pick no nits with his thesis of a paradigm-dropping shift in the industry and its lingo, but one of his etymologies is speculative. Blockbuster, he reports, was "coined in the 1920's to denote a movie whose long line of customers could not be contained on a single city block." Though an online encyclopedia suggests a similar origin -- describing a play so successful that competing theaters on the block are "busted" -- no specific citation is given, and without a citation, you don't have a coinage you can bite on. I'd say blockbuster is World War II vintage and cite The Los Angeles Times of July 30, 1942: "The R.A.F. had lost 29 of the 600 bombers sent against Hamburg Sunday, when 175,000 incendiaries and hundreds of explosive bombs, including two-ton 'block busters,' were dumped in a 35-minute raid." In that same year, the phrase the big picture had its premiere. In his title, Epstein plays its movie meaning against its current sense of "an overview that brings perspective." Probably (now I'm the one speculating) the phrase grew out of the perspective in a painter's "broad canvas." The Big Picture, with initial caps to signify a theme, was used in 1931 by a Depression-era baseball official to describe the distinction that sportswriters bestowed on the St. Louis Cardinals star Pepper Martin, but its grand-perspective sense was first brought into play by Lt. Col. Robert Allen Griffin, in defining the word strategy in 1942: "The term applies to the big picture; it is used in direction of campaigns ... to win wars." ----- I can't do better on "blockbuster" (ever-reliable Newspaperarchive has a couple of hits dated as 1913, but they're actually from 1943). But 1942 seems late for the 'overview' sense of "the big picture". Without even hitting the newspaper databases, I find this 1926 cite on JSTOR: ----- "Tendencies in the Foreign Trade of the United States" by E. Dana Durand Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 127, (Sep. 1926), p. 21 All this will sound to a good many exporters both academic and idealistic. But is that not because details obscure the big picture? ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 17:51:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:51:05 -0800 Subject: defuse / diffuse Message-ID: The confusion is now international. From _The Hindustan Times_ (Mar. 7, 2005) [ http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1269811,00180008.htm ] : "Senior police officials including the Sub-Divisional Magistrate are camping in the area to diffuse the situation following angry protests against the five arrests." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Mar 13 19:15:14 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:15:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) Message-ID: Nothing new except an earlier instance than my 1908 Panama story. This time from Puerto Rico. Using Proquest, 20 May 1900 _New York Times_ pg 12 article entitled "LIGHT-HEARTED PORTO RICO" <> Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Mar 13 19:23:53 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:23:53 -0500 Subject: condom fatigue (was: Dialects in film) Message-ID: FRITZ JUENGLING >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>> wrote: And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the movie, thankfully!) <<< Fritz commented: >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like? <<< Which reminds me of a quote I've had in my pocket for a while: "New York City suffered a 17 percent spike in new HIV infections among gay men over three years. [PARAGRAPH] Some of this increase can be traced to simple condom fatigue." Philadelphia Weekly, Feb. 9-15, 2005 cover story; page 14, column 4, about halfway down. meaning apparently 'people's being tired of using condoms and therefore having sex without one', not 'condoms' wearing out through material overuse [one hopes not!] or aging [conceivable... I didn't say that]'. mark by hand From simon at IPFW.EDU Sun Mar 13 19:36:38 2005 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:36:38 -0500 Subject: Dialects in film & tv Message-ID: (not as interesting as brad pitt and trojans, but) australian simon baker did a great disengaged educated-but-who-knows-where american english in the cancelled The Guardian beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 u.s. voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu >>> mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU 3/13/2005 2:23 PM >>> FRITZ JUENGLING >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>> wrote: And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the movie, thankfully!) <<< Fritz commented: >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like? <<< Which reminds me of a quote I've had in my pocket for a while: "New York City suffered a 17 percent spike in new HIV infections among gay men over three years. [PARAGRAPH] Some of this increase can be traced to simple condom fatigue." Philadelphia Weekly, Feb. 9-15, 2005 cover story; page 14, column 4, about halfway down. meaning apparently 'people's being tired of using condoms and therefore having sex without one', not 'condoms' wearing out through material overuse [one hopes not!] or aging [conceivable... I didn't say that]'. mark by hand From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 19:55:08 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:55:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <000601c52800$fe2cb120$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): (from N'archive) ---------- _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] <<"Do you think," said Sentry Laird to the alcalde after the floral offering had been made and accepted -- "do you think for a minnit that Leftenant Bobbie done the Hobson act for the likes of you? 'Twas for the battery M of the Seventh that worruk was did last night, I can tell you those, and you're not the first Spickety that has been here to-day to have a bookkay for him doin' it.">> ---------- Note the eye-dialect, and the pronunciation of "lieutenant". I don't know what "Hobson" refers to: apparently Lt. Bobbie had acted the hero in fighting a fire. Also in the piece is "Now will you be gone, you Spinnach?" spoken to the alcalde by Laird: I suppose probably "Spinnach" was "Spanish" expressed as "spinach", an alternative to "Spickety". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 20:12:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:12:09 EST Subject: Spigoty (1901) (from Spaghetti, 1896?_ Message-ID: _Times Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2kHoqC81gExgr9tBgp9VkckpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 08, 1901 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+spigoty+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+spigoty+AND) ...partment. The oScers met by j iatt a "SPIGOTY" dollar or a "SPIGOTY.....by .a writer in the Boston Transcript. SPIGOTY. according to one version, was.. Pg. 7, col. 4: _The Birth of "Spigoty."_ The new words arising from the mixture of American and Spanish in our new possessions may call, shortly, for new editions of our dictionaries. The story of one such word, "spigoty," has been traced by a writer in the Boston Transcript. Spigoty, according to one version, was the nickname given by troopers in the Second cavalry--stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas, in 1896--to a sallow-complexioned company man who admired an Italian girl called "Spaghretti." At the outbreak of the war these soldiers, together with their comrade "Spigoty," were transferred to Company A of the signal corps. After a stay at Chickamauga this company was sent to Porto Rico with General Miles' expedition, landed at Ponce and encamped later at Guayama. Here the men discovered that the natives themselves were of the same hue as "Spigoty," and in the course of time they therefore dubbed them "Spigoties." Soon the nickname spread, not only in Guayama, but throughout the province, and at last to every town on the islanf, till now the word has become a common means both of designating residents of Spanish or Porto Rican blood and describing everything characteristic of them, such as a "spigoty: hat, a "spigoty" dollar or a "spigoty" trick. Indeed, the Americans now ask one another: "Do you talk spigoty?" or "Can you dance spigoty?" Road-builder order, "Shovel in more dirt there, Spigoty"; housewives say, "Some more bread please, Spigoty," and even the natives themselves, when in need of an expression of contempt for a fellow being, now cry "Spigoty." From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 13 20:13:22 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:13:22 -0500 Subject: the big picture (1926) Message-ID: Here's an earlier cite from Westlaw. For "big picture" meaning a money-making movie, from testimony given 8/1/1922 and quoted in a 1925 legal opinion, Parker v. Parker, 74 Cal.App. 646, 652, 241 P. 581, 583 (1925) (ellipses, or whatever those asterisks are, are original): <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the big picture (1926) But 1942 seems late for the 'overview' sense of "the big picture". Without even hitting the newspaper databases, I find this 1926 cite on JSTOR: ----- "Tendencies in the Foreign Trade of the United States" by E. Dana Durand Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 127, (Sep. 1926), p. 21 All this will sound to a good many exporters both academic and idealistic. But is that not because details obscure the big picture? ----- --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Mar 13 20:17:48 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:17:48 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s In-Reply-To: <20050312050016.4334EB26BA@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael McKernan says: >>> As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). <<< A gorse is a gorse, of course, of course, And fur's never found on the gorse, of course. They may be whin-ny, but never dorks, As Mike McKernan said! sorry but not very... mark by hand filk.cracksandshards.com From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Mar 13 20:28:24 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:28:24 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: I'm sure some people sometimes use dork of someone who is suaveness challenged when the techie connotations of geek or nerd would be appropriate, but I was forever inoculated against such semantic drift by the person who told me what "dork" meant (5th-grade classmate, Little Flower parochial school, Chevy Chase, MD, c. 1957): a guy who goes around smelling girls' bicycle seats. Seán Fitzpatrick A Lie can be all over the Internet before the Truth can boot up its ISP. www.logomachon.blogspot.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 20:34:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:34:56 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) In-Reply-To: <4232F123.2010601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 5:39 AM -0800 3/12/05, Tom Dalzell wrote: >>Her two comrades learned they could drop in, sit on the floor, >>exchange ideas, and sometimes drink beer or "Jesus juice," their >>own concoction of grape juice and gin. (29) Emily Toth. Inside >>Peyton Place: The Life of Grace Metalious (1981). Well, I still think MJ's use is more fitting that any of the competitors mentioned here. It was wine that Jesus (is reported as having) turned water into, not grape juice/gin or ethyl alcohol or various other concoctions, at least in the translations I'm familiar with. When I heard the quote during the trial coverage wrap-up on the ABC World News, my first thought was Euphemism of the Year, here we come! If it's been around as long as it appears (for wine, specifically), I'm not sure, but it's certainly a contenduh. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 21:11:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:11:41 EST Subject: FWIW: "Mungo" Park Message-ID: Yes, as I said, Grant Barrett found "mungo" in the 1930s, which is earlier than 1963. ... I'd posted on "Don't go Mungo Park." That name might be a little obscure for 1930s Brooklyn, though. ... ... _Indiana Weekly Messenger _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2plb+6roubvoyhiDrKEsRTgZ5yinP7EMQEIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, May 22, 1907 _Indiana,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:indiana+called+mungo) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+called+mungo) ...and I'll tell you why this stuff was CALLED MUNGO. "Park, after making up a.....vigor that in gratitude to the tree be CALLED it cahuah, which in Arabia.. Pg. 6?, col. 3: _"MUNGO" PARK._ _The Worse Than Shoddy Fabric That_ _Gave Him His Name._ ... The old lady listened complacently to the compliments on her new gown. "Well, at any rate," she said as she smoothed the lustrous folds, "it isn't made of mungo." "Mungo? What is mungo?" asked he niece. "Have you never heard of Mungo Park?" said the old lady. "Yes, I think I have. I don't know what I've heard, though." "Well, I'll tell you. Mungo Park was an Englishman, and he lived at the time when shoddy was invented. He invented a stuff that was far worse than shoddy--a stuff beside which shoddy was fine, new wool--and I'll tell you why this stuff was called mungo. "Park, after making up a batch of it out of shoddy dust and grease, gave it anxiously to his carder to card. "The carder tried it. Then he sent for the boss. "'This new stock of yours won't go, Mr. Park,' he said. "'Mun go,' said the other in his Yorkshire dialect. 'It mun go, man.' "And go it did, and thus Park got his name, and thus that abominable stock that he invented came to get the name of mungo."--New Orleans Times-Democrat. ... ... ... _News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2lZGfn0gEuCvEBE7O5GayLlDf+dDR6BGN0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 26, 1970 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:m ansfield+called+mungo) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+called+mungo) ...back in the 1930's and 1940's who CALLED MUNGO names in stronger terms.....It's about a new record released CALLED "The Saga of Van Lingle MUNGO.. ... _Saga of Van Lingle Mungo_ _A Folk Song of Sorts_ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 21:12:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:37 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:32 AM -0500 3/13/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >... >The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, >and both involve Brooklyn. >... >Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted >that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of Trade Jargon. >... >I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >spread from the >Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >pitches? >... He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 13 21:27:45 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:27:45 -0600 Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches Message-ID: 1. Check through the archives of the list: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l 2. If you have specific questions, most people on the list are pretty friendly and helpful. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Don Powell > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:56 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Don Powell > Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Hi, I am new to the list. I have written a book titled Best > Sports = Clich=E9s Ever. It has received a good deal of > publicity and during = interviews I am usually asked if I > know the origins of the 1771 = clich=E9s in my book. I only > know several so any sports clich=E9 origins = you can provide > would be greatly appreciated. Don Powell > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 22:43:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:43:19 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I need to start reading these posts in reverse order. Good going, Doug. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): (from N'archive) ---------- _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] <<"Do you think," said Sentry Laird to the alcalde after the floral offering had been made and accepted -- "do you think for a minnit that Leftenant Bobbie done the Hobson act for the likes of you? 'Twas for the battery M of the Seventh that worruk was did last night, I can tell you those, and you're not the first Spickety that has been here to-day to have a bookkay for him doin' it.">> ---------- Note the eye-dialect, and the pronunciation of "lieutenant". I don't know what "Hobson" refers to: apparently Lt. Bobbie had acted the hero in fighting a fire. Also in the piece is "Now will you be gone, you Spinnach?" spoken to the alcalde by Laird: I suppose probably "Spinnach" was "Spanish" expressed as "spinach", an alternative to "Spickety". -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 22:40:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:40:56 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I believe I once mentioned, "spiggoty"" was said to have been in use during the Spanish- American War, and this cite may be as close as we're going to get. Anything pre-1921 on "gook" ? JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing new except an earlier instance than my 1908 Panama story. This = time from Puerto Rico. Using Proquest, 20 May 1900 _New York Times_ pg 12 article entitled = "LIGHT-HEARTED PORTO RICO" > Sam Clements __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 22:48:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:48:44 EST Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro surely has something. ... ... _New Albums Reflect Black Comics' Rise; The Rhythm Mode _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=167465292&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110752637&clientId=65882) By Hollie I. West. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 25, 1968. p. E2 (1 page) ... _Black Comedians Enjoy Renaissance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=513146222&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS =1110748810&clientId=65882) HOLLIE I WEST. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 30, 1968. p. E14 (1 page) ... In the last five years there has been a meteoric rise in the careers fo black comedians. No longer are Negro comics forced to perform only in ghetto theaters and nightclubs. They are now saturating network television and the country's top night spots with their appearances. ... As a result, the humor of black people is being woven into the national fabric more quickly than ever. The phrase "here come the judge" has become a nation-wide expression. .... The originateo of that phrase, Dewey [Pigmeat] Markham, is an old-line comedian, dating back to the days of vaudeville, On the strength of several recent television appearances, he is enjoying a good deal of currency. ... _Raw Variety_ ... Although he credited with opening doors for the new generation of black comedians, Markham will probably never have the popularity some of the younger black comics enjoy because his humor is of the raw, gut variety. He uses the language of the streets, but it is the language of a previous generation, colored with shades of rural black America. ... Markham does not use protest jokes. On the surface, one could not sense the social rebellion in this country by listening to him. But his is not Uncle Tom humor--it is black ghetto humor straight through. ... Markham is represented by two new albums, "Backstage" (Chess LPS 1621), which was recorded last November at Washington's Howard Theater, and "Here Come the Judge" (Chess LPS 1523). ... _Punch Lines_ ... The latter contains the comedians hit single record. Although it is currently popular, it is not very funny on repeated listenings. Indeed, the lines are dull the second tie around. ... But Markham's other comments on our system of jurisprudence, such as "The Trial," compensate for the dullness of the hit. These are filled withj excellent punch lines and convey a vividly absurd notion of a judge. (...) Bill Cosby, of course, is the most famous and popular living black comedian. He could probably read a baseball lineup and make us crack up. (Didn't that used to be "read the telephone book"?--ed.) ... ... ... _The Post Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4x2+z1TSDMcQmSdmcq+GuVJ0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 23, 1987 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+here+come+the+judge) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+here+come+the+judge) ...in your Funk and Wagnalls" and "HERE COME THE JUDGE." If TV shows have.....THE vague, inept lecher, and Rowan was THE straight man. Rowan appeared as THE.. ... ... _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrFXOXVeVwH3JZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, November 01, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+here+come+the+judge) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+here+come+the+judge) ...ty hot right now. I wrote Earl "HERE COME THE JUDGE" in 1928 when I was doin.....walk out without paying he says 'HERE COME dull JUDGE.' "such an erudite ... ... Pg. 16C, col. 1: EARL WILSON _New Life for Pigmeat_ ... NEW YORK - "Man, that chicken liver's good!" PIgmeat Markham, who was born Dewey Markham, said at a gfront table in Lindy's. "I have been eatin' Jewish food for 40 years. ... "This thing happened to me rather late in life," he said, "and I'm kinda tired. I'm 65 now - will be in April, and one e thing I learn is that home's the place to go to after work. Get to that bed and get some rest. That's the key to bein' an old man, rest. ... "Vacation? I don't see no spot for any. ... "Because 'the Judge' is pretty hot right now. I write 'Here come the judge' in 1928, when I doin' stock on the A;hambra. We kicked it around through burleque. ... "I did the judge on the Ed Sullivan show in 1847 when he had his program at Maxim's Theater, 49th and 7th. Ed didn't have a sponsor then and didn't pay much money, about $400 for five of us. ... "ED COME to Harlem lookin' for me. I was in a hospital. ... "I had a sketch. I'd see a ghost, and yell 'WOW' and go right through the roof on a piano wire. The piano wire broke and I broke both my legs. ... "I did the judge a lot of times for Ed. Sammy Davis saw me do it at the Apollo. Sammy tells me one night he run out of words on TV and so he says 'Here come duh judge.' The kids grabbed it and we (Col. 2--ed.) had 18 weeks on Rowan & Martin, and Ed brought me back. I got 18 albums and they got me bringin' a book out. ... "I come here from Furham, N.C., off a little truck show. Now I live in the Bronx with my wife and two children. I'm tryin' to get through college so I keep to the grindstone. ... "Funny thing about the beef blankets I use to bet the buy over the head with. Pig bladders don't get the effect of the beef bladders. So you have to have a connection to get them. The beef bladders I use are kosher. You don't have to use kosher but it happens that the connections I got is kosher." ... Pigmeat's a very serious gentleman as you can see. "I'm holdin' my money tighter than ever," he said. "If a man threw it away now he's really a fool. Oh, I threw away plenty in my younger days." ... ... 5. _Looking at Hollywood_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=483626662&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10753806&clientId=65882) Hedda Hopper. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 26, 1948. p. A9 (1 page) ... The Lunts' performances are sheer magic, but they could read the telephone directory and make it entertaining, John Hmableton, who saw the play with me, said, "Every contract written in Hollywood should contain a clause that when the Lunts come to town, the players must see them." ... ... ... _Oskar Werner: How Humble Can You Get?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=90667343&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110753093&clientId=65882) By REX REEDROME.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1968. p. D11 (1 page) ... If I make a few more films now, I could come to New York and read the telephone book. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 23:06:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:06:09 -0800 Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) Message-ID: You know you're a geezer when : . . . You first realize there are fully grown people who need to be told that Pigmeat Markham popularized "Here Come the Judge!" as a national catch-phrase on NBC's "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" in 1968. (Previously the same show had resurrected "Sock it to me!" During the election, even Richard Nixon appeared for five seconds to say it.) . . . You feel it necessary to point this realization out to others. I never missed an episode. Not one. The only other show that inspired such loyalty was "The Twilight Zone." JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred Shapiro surely has something. ... ... _New Albums Reflect Black Comics' Rise; The Rhythm Mode _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=167465292&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110752637&clientId=65882) By Hollie I. West. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 25, 1968. p. E2 (1 page) ... _Black Comedians Enjoy Renaissance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=513146222&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS =1110748810&clientId=65882) HOLLIE I WEST. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 30, 1968. p. E14 (1 page) ... In the last five years there has been a meteoric rise in the careers fo black comedians. No longer are Negro comics forced to perform only in ghetto theaters and nightclubs. They are now saturating network television and the country's top night spots with their appearances. ... As a result, the humor of black people is being woven into the national fabric more quickly than ever. The phrase "here come the judge" has become a nation-wide expression. .... The originateo of that phrase, Dewey [Pigmeat] Markham, is an old-line comedian, dating back to the days of vaudeville, On the strength of several recent television appearances, he is enjoying a good deal of currency. ... _Raw Variety_ ... Although he credited with opening doors for the new generation of black comedians, Markham will probably never have the popularity some of the younger black comics enjoy because his humor is of the raw, gut variety. He uses the language of the streets, but it is the language of a previous generation, colored with shades of rural black America. ... Markham does not use protest jokes. On the surface, one could not sense the social rebellion in this country by listening to him. But his is not Uncle Tom humor--it is black ghetto humor straight through. ... Markham is represented by two new albums, "Backstage" (Chess LPS 1621), which was recorded last November at Washington's Howard Theater, and "Here Come the Judge" (Chess LPS 1523). ... _Punch Lines_ ... The latter contains the comedians hit single record. Although it is currently popular, it is not very funny on repeated listenings. Indeed, the lines are dull the second tie around. ... But Markham's other comments on our system of jurisprudence, such as "The Trial," compensate for the dullness of the hit. These are filled withj excellent punch lines and convey a vividly absurd notion of a judge. (...) Bill Cosby, of course, is the most famous and popular living black comedian. He could probably read a baseball lineup and make us crack up. (Didn't that used to be "read the telephone book"?--ed.) ... ... ... _The Post Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4x2+z1TSDMcQmSdmcq+GuVJ0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 23, 1987 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+here+come+the+judge) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+here+come+the+judge) ...in your Funk and Wagnalls" and "HERE COME THE JUDGE." If TV shows have.....THE vague, inept lecher, and Rowan was THE straight man. Rowan appeared as THE.. ... ... _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrFXOXVeVwH3JZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, November 01, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+here+come+the+judge) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+here+come+the+judge) ...ty hot right now. I wrote Earl "HERE COME THE JUDGE" in 1928 when I was doin.....walk out without paying he says 'HERE COME dull JUDGE.' "such an erudite ... ... Pg. 16C, col. 1: EARL WILSON _New Life for Pigmeat_ ... NEW YORK - "Man, that chicken liver's good!" PIgmeat Markham, who was born Dewey Markham, said at a gfront table in Lindy's. "I have been eatin' Jewish food for 40 years. ... "This thing happened to me rather late in life," he said, "and I'm kinda tired. I'm 65 now - will be in April, and one e thing I learn is that home's the place to go to after work. Get to that bed and get some rest. That's the key to bein' an old man, rest. ... "Vacation? I don't see no spot for any. ... "Because 'the Judge' is pretty hot right now. I write 'Here come the judge' in 1928, when I doin' stock on the A;hambra. We kicked it around through burleque. ... "I did the judge on the Ed Sullivan show in 1847 when he had his program at Maxim's Theater, 49th and 7th. Ed didn't have a sponsor then and didn't pay much money, about $400 for five of us. ... "ED COME to Harlem lookin' for me. I was in a hospital. ... "I had a sketch. I'd see a ghost, and yell 'WOW' and go right through the roof on a piano wire. The piano wire broke and I broke both my legs. ... "I did the judge a lot of times for Ed. Sammy Davis saw me do it at the Apollo. Sammy tells me one night he run out of words on TV and so he says 'Here come duh judge.' The kids grabbed it and we (Col. 2--ed.) had 18 weeks on Rowan & Martin, and Ed brought me back. I got 18 albums and they got me bringin' a book out. ... "I come here from Furham, N.C., off a little truck show. Now I live in the Bronx with my wife and two children. I'm tryin' to get through college so I keep to the grindstone. ... "Funny thing about the beef blankets I use to bet the buy over the head with. Pig bladders don't get the effect of the beef bladders. So you have to have a connection to get them. The beef bladders I use are kosher. You don't have to use kosher but it happens that the connections I got is kosher." ... Pigmeat's a very serious gentleman as you can see. "I'm holdin' my money tighter than ever," he said. "If a man threw it away now he's really a fool. Oh, I threw away plenty in my younger days." ... ... 5. _Looking at Hollywood_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=483626662&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10753806&clientId=65882) Hedda Hopper. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 26, 1948. p. A9 (1 page) ... The Lunts' performances are sheer magic, but they could read the telephone directory and make it entertaining, John Hmableton, who saw the play with me, said, "Every contract written in Hollywood should contain a clause that when the Lunts come to town, the players must see them." ... ... ... _Oskar Werner: How Humble Can You Get?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=90667343&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110753093&clientId=65882) By REX REEDROME.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1968. p. D11 (1 page) ... If I make a few more films now, I could come to New York and read the telephone book. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 23:32:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:32:27 -0500 Subject: Gook (??) (1919) In-Reply-To: <20050313224319.71082.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Times-Democrat_ (Lima OH), 19 July 1919: p. 9: <> ---------- It surely does say "gooks". What does it mean? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 23:37:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:37:44 EST Subject: "Read the telephone directory" (1947) Message-ID: _Valley News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2mEPtrn0h6GS/R+uA+aD/VvETHZjsJ+4TUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 04, 1964 _Van Nuys,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:van nuys+read+the+telephone+directory) _California_ (http://www.newspap erarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+read+the+telephone+directory) ...commented that Joao could READ THE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY aloud and make it.....of THE To THE which opens Sept. 15, at THE Riviera. Carradlne will play Lycus.. ... ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQpy1J9ve9Q8TVmwX1y7fktIkIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, December 28, 1993 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+read+the+telephone+book) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+read+the+telephone+book) ...that THEy could probably READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and make it sound like.....no nudity or onscreen THE tUm Is about THE adult THE nicest sense of THE.. ... ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2j9lgB+i5OBG0hHQLUEN5Mt+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, September 16, 1993 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+read+the+telephone+book) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+read+the+telephone+book) ...it for a laugh. Sinbad could READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and be fanny and you get.....about herself in print Her second BOOK, "My is due out in February, THE.. ... ... _Daily Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2rqgJovyaDWmajdJmgYLfXj0aMuvP+Cd3kIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 23, 1989 _Chicago,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+read+the+telephone+book) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+read+the+telephone+book) ...compared to watching someone READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK. At least THE Cruise film.....sion on THE casting director. She READ scenes twice for THE Barry THEn.. ... ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQpy1J9ve9Q8TUMZmZnMMwkP0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, December 28, 1993 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+read+the+telephone+book) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+read+the+telephone+book) ...that THEy could probably READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and make it sound like.....t about THE adult THE nicest sense of THE competition between THE two men for.. ... ... _ Nevada State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2n5CQ6UJ3/DeGwzQv5gH617/XFyoqAKe1w==) Tuesday, October 14, 1947 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+read+the+telephone+directory) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+read+the+telephone+directory) ...she couldn't e came out and READ THE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY." "Looks bad for.....and have only THE right to vote yes or READ THE snapped THE food czar. yes An.. ... Pg. 4, col. 6: "She plays the part of a native girl whose sailor friend has walked out on her. With that set-up, she couldn't miss if she came out and read the telephone directory." ("Pitching Horseshoes" by Billy Rose--ed.) ... ... Sorry for the typing mistakes on "here comes the judge." I spent a long time looking for "here come de judge" and "here comes the judge" and "here come the judge" and other variants on ProQuest and Newspaperarchive and Paper of Record, and it sure feels good to be called a geezer after that. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 23:39:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:39:47 -0800 Subject: Gook (??) (1919) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Beats me. Context works against a misprint of "geeks." (They'd only need one anyway.) Zebras? No, there's some kind of mistake here. Or else it's a very rare and unrecorded sense. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Gook (??) (1919) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Times-Democrat_ (Lima OH), 19 July 1919: p. 9: > ---------- It surely does say "gooks". What does it mean? -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 23:47:13 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:47:13 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050313182459.02ffb970@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Evening Post_ (Frederick MD), 22 May 1912: p. 4: << [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, The dodoes used to sing; And the aepornis [sic: "aepyornis" --DW] wandered out In prehistoric spring. The dinosourus [sic] built its nest, The gooks were on the wing; And behemoths were quite a pest In prehistoric spring. Oh, mankind hasn't changed its ways, To habits old we cling. The bards sang these same roundelays In prehistoric spring. >> ---------- The other creatures named here have recognizable names. But what is the "gook"? -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 00:21:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:21:06 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Am still mystified. Earliest HDAS sense (simpleton) is from college use around this period. I wonder if this "gook" was some kind of imaginary creature from a comic strip or something (cf. career of "jeep"). Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" (ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Evening Post_ (Frederick MD), 22 May 1912: p. 4: << [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, The dodoes used to sing; And the aepornis [sic: "aepyornis" --DW] wandered out In prehistoric spring. The dinosourus [sic] built its nest, The gooks were on the wing; And behemoths were quite a pest In prehistoric spring. Oh, mankind hasn't changed its ways, To habits old we cling. The bards sang these same roundelays In prehistoric spring. >> ---------- The other creatures named here have recognizable names. But what is the "gook"? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Mar 14 00:42:55 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:42:55 -0500 Subject: "@" as Gender Wildcard in Spanish Message-ID: Does any know if any work has been done on the "@" symbol as a gender wildcard in Spanish? It's kind of like the equivalent of "he/she" in English: instead of writing "Chicano/Chicana," one might write "Chican at ." There are also examples online of Latin@(s), niñ@(s), Mexican@(s), and in a few places, the plural articles and adjectives are wildcarded, too, as in "L at s Niñ@s Palestin at s." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 01:56:41 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:56:41 -0500 Subject: Re "bracketology" Message-ID: Marginally interesting, or at least curious: The word itself has probably been around for awhile on espn and elsewhere (56K google hits.) But what's weird is the pronunciation (or at least the most frequent one) of "bracketology" (the discussion of the brackets for the NCAA men's basketball tournament, just selected tonight) on espn, with a flap, as if it were "brackedology". Basically, they're not resyllabifying it the way one does with, say, cosmetology, although of course that's not the study of cosmets. But if there were a field that studied comets--hey, there *are* 13K hits for the field, not all of which are typos--I'd wager it's pronounced with a real [t] and not a flap. So what's up with bracke[D]ology? larry From gorion at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 14 02:09:26 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:09:26 -0500 Subject: "@" as Gender Wildcard in Spanish In-Reply-To: <4234de11.1f57e7c1.3964.fffff2fcSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: All I can add is that is also common in Italian -- "qualcun@" and a zillion others. What search engine are you using to find these? Other shorthands I've seen in Italian x -- "per" (by/for) -- "xche" (this probably also works for spanish "por" and french "par") + -- "piu" -- "+bici; +kaos" (more bikes; more chaos -- shout-outs of a Milan bike "gang") 6 -- "sei" (you are) -- "Eva 6 bona" Hmm... if I can dig up my copy of "Le Mille Lire Scritte" (an Italian tollbooth worker's collection of things written on 1000 lire notes, published in 1995) I could find more. I could maybe get a decent Verbatim article out of what I've been casually collecting on this. O. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 04:51:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:51:53 -0500 Subject: "All dressed up and no place to go" (1913) Message-ID: HERE COME THE JUDGE--I don't know if I had made it clear, but I had posted that citation because it states that Markham used it in 1928. I believe that it is earlier and pre-Pigmeat. The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "All dressed up with nowhere to go" from William Allen White, 1916. Meatloaf sang that lyric as well, in the 1970s. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) News of the Theaters.; "The Red Canary" Is Quite Worth While. PERCY HAMMOND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 21, 1913. p. 10 (1 page): "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go" is the title of Raymond Hitchock's comic lamentation this season in "The Beauty Shop" THE CATERPILLAR. GEORGE FITCH. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Mar 18, 1914. p. 4 (1 page): As a matter of fact, the caterpillar is all dressed up and has nowhere to go. "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go--" Did That Song Writer Ever Live Here?; We Need a Place to Rest, a Place to Laugh and Frolic Isma Dooly. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Apr 4, 1915. p. C3 (1 page) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 06:20:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:20:29 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Fred Shapiro >Subject: Re: MIT slang list (1962) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute >> > Has The Finest Professors" >> >> Hahaha. >> >> This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A >> History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian >> T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". > >I Hate This Fucking Place. This expansion, i.e. I Hate This Fucking Place, was used, in the Army, of the post at which one had the misfortune to be stationed. Related to this was the saying, "There are only two good posts: the one that you came from and the one that you're going to," a rendition of a couple of old saws: "better the devil you know than the one you don't" and "you never miss the water till the well runs dry." -Wilson Gray > When I was a student at Harvard Law School, it >was common to refer to it as HFLS (Harvard Fucking Law School). > >Fred > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 07:03:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:03:58 -0500 Subject: Home on the Range; Bury me not on lone prairie; Overpaid, Oversexed, and Over Here Message-ID: I'm checking some "anonymous" sayings listing in the American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations. -------------------------------------------------------------- CONNECTICUT, "LAND OF STEADY HABITS" There are some "Steady Habits" in the 1790s; it's definitely associated with Connecticut by about 1800. I haven't checked the Adams papers. (LITERATURE ONLINE) Woodworth, Samuel, 1784-1842 [Author Page] NEW-HAVEN: A POEM. 42Kb , [from The poems, odes, songs, and other metrical effusions (1818)] [Durable URL for this text] Found 5 hit(s). ...Here moral worth and " Steady Habits" reign, While Vice and... ...still we trace The " steady habits" of your fathers' race;... ...attorneys as "the land of steady habits," who all grow rich... ...cannot be, Candour and " steady habits" won't agree; An age... ...thought, The term of " steady habits" lured me here, And... Chester, Leonard, 1750-1803 [Author Page] Federalism Triumphant in the Steady Habits of Connecticut Alone (1801) 278Kb ...4050 Federalism Triumphant in the Steady Habits of Connecticut Alone (1801)... FEDERALISM TRIUMPHANT IN THE STEADY HABITS OF CONNECTICUT ALONE, OR, THE TURNPIKE ROAD TO A FORTUNE. A COMIC OPERA OR, POLITICAL FARCE IN SIX ACTS, As performed at the Theatres Royal and Aristocratic at Hartford and New-Haven October, 1801. [Durable URL for this text] Found 16 hit(s): 2 FEDERALISM TRIUMPHANT IN THE STEADY HABITS OF CONNECTICUT ALONE ,... Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT I. [Durable URL for this text] ---SCENE I. [Durable URL for this text] ...the well born , our steady habits, and well arranged systems,... ...ponderancy to keep up our steady habits, cheer up Colonel, build... ...those alone, we maintain our steady habits, the priests will flinch... -------------------------------------------------------------- "BURY ME NOT ON THE LONE PRAIRIE" (GOOGLE) http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/cowboy-songs/001543.HTM A cowboy is dying. He asks to be taken home and buried in his family home. His request is ignored; he is buried in a small and isolated prairie grave Probably adapted from "The Ocean Burial," written by Rev. Edwin H. Chapin (1839). For the complex question of the tune, see the notes on that piece. - RBW (GOOGLE) http://stp.ling.uu.se/pipermail/dcml/2002-April/018545.html <> (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) TWO MONTHS A COWBOY. G. F. BLANDY.. Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). New York: Nov 1, 1888. Vol. VOL. XXXI., Iss. No. 15; p. 283 (2 pages) First page: Several had good voices and when "The Dying Cowboy" was sung all was still except the clear voice of Dick as he sang: "Oh bury me not on the lone prairie, Where the coyotes howl, and the winds they blow." -------------------------------------------------------------- "HOME ON THE RANGE" Nothing on Newspaperarchive? The American Heritage Dictionary has "ANONYMOUS, cowboy song, 1860s or earlier." Also: "Folk music expert John A Lomax first recorded this song in San Antonio, Texas, in 1908, from a 'Negro singer who ran a beer saloon out beyond the Southern Pacific depot, in a scrubby mesquite grove' (_Folk Song U.S.A._). Not sung so often nowadays is the third verse: 'The red man was pressed from this part of the West,/He's likely no more to return/To the banks of the Red River where seldom if ever/Their flickering campfires burn." (GOOGLE) The Official story of "Home on the Range"... years, a Lawsuit was filed on the original writing and music of "Home on the Range". ... Goodwin had written the words of a song entitled" My Arizona Home" and Mrs ... raven.cc.ku.edu/heritage/kssights/home/official.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) NPR : Home on the Range, Present at the Creation... the territory, and cowboys constantly on the move, "Home on the Range" spread across the ... So it became 'My Colorado Home' and 'My Arizona Home,'" Averill says. ... www.npr.org/programs/morning/ features/patc/homeontherange/ - 24k - April 29, 2002 -- When Dr. Brewster Higley sat down on the banks of Kansas' Beaver Creek in 1872 and jotted down the lines that would become "Home on the Range," he had little notion that his words would reverberate well into the next century. By the time he died in 1911, the rest of the country had little idea of the song's true origins. As it trickled across America, on its way to the Oval Office and the Rocky Mountains, the legacy left to Dr. Higley by his most famous contribution to American culture was one of anonymity. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) $500,000 SUIT HINGES ON SHIFTING OF NOUNS; Authors Charge That 'Arizona Home' Was Changed to Make 'Home on the Range.' New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 15, 1934. p. 3 (1 page): Mr. and Mrs. William Goodwin, authors in 1905 of "Arizona Home," began suit yesterday in Federal court charging that "Home on the Range," a song much sung on the radio, was in reality an adaptation or their own words and tune. The plaintiffs charged that the defendants, who include publishing houses and several individuals, departed from the spirit of the original piece by turning singular nouns into plurals and vice verse. So that the court had before it the following delicate example: "Oh give me a home where the buffalo roam, Where the deer and the antelope play, There seldom is heard a discouraging word, And the sky is not cloudy all day." As against: "Oh give me a home where the buffaloes roam, Where the deers and the antelopes play There seldom is heard a discouraging word And the skies are not cloudy all day." -------------------------------------------------------------- "I EXPECT TO PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE..." The American Heritage states: "_Bartlett_'s points out that this has been attributed to many people, and most often to Stephen Grellet, a French QUaker cleric, who came to the U.S. in 1795. But no attribution has been verified." (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Article 3 -- No Title Friends' Intelligencer (1853-1910). Philadelphia: Mar 20, 1869. Vol. 26, Iss. 3; p. 37 (1 page): "I expect to pass through this world but once. If, therefore, there be any kindness I can show, or any good thing I can do to any fellow human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I will not pass this way again." Article 1 -- No Title Advocate of Peace (1847-1906). Washington: Jan 1872. Vol. 3, Iss. 37; p. A2 (1 page): A worthy Quaker thus wrote: "I expect to pass through this world but once. If, therefore there can be any kindness I can do to any fellow being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I will not pass this way again." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Disraell and His Wife. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 1, 1894. p. 16 (1 page): _Its Origin_ The quotation beginning, "I expect to pass through this world but once," has been inquired for many times and sought diligently. Somebody has found the idea expressed in a little poem bu Joseph A. Terney: "Through this toilsome world, alas! Once and only once I pass. If a kindness I may show, If a good deed I may do To any suffering fellow-man, Let me do it while I can. Nor delay it, for 'tis plain I shall not pass this way again." And somebody else writes that he has discovered that the quotation, almost exactly as used by Pro. Drummond, is from the epitaph on the tomb of Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devonshire. --_Book Buyer_. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) St Joseph Herald Saturday, February 27, 1869 Saint Joseph, Michigan ...thus I ex pect to PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE there be any kindness I.....thing to and work he or at least try ONCE more. BUT he was unequal to the and.. Coshocton Democrat Tuesday, December 15, 1874 Coshocton, Ohio ...who wrote, expect to PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE. If, therefore, there be.....liftedthe honseand-jami mod his head' THROUGH the head screamed flrei 'and.. -------------------------------------------------------------- OVERSEXED, OVERPAID, OVERFE, AND OVER HERE A 1944 date is probably good enough for this WWII quotation. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Leonard Lyons Says: The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 30, 1944. p. S6 (1 page): In London the story is being told of an American official who was anxious to discover the nature of the British complaints against the American soldiers based there. He finally asked one Britisher: "What do you think is wrong with the American soldiers?"...The Britisher answered: "Well, they're over-dressed, they're over-paid, they're over-sexed and they're over here." Joe Legion, Private First Class; Mr. Sherwood gives a close-up of the man who will help liquidate Hitler. Joe Legion, Private First Class Joe Legion, Pfc. By ROBERT E. SHERWOODLONDON (By Wireless).. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 28, 1944. p. SM5 (3 pages) Third page: "There's a great gag going around the camp. It's about what is the only trouble with them American troops in England--they're overpaid, over-decorated, over-sexed--and over here." Handy Booklet Insures If Diplomat Dooms Us, He Will Do So Politely; Be Assured That If the End Comes Our Envoys Will Be Impeccably Dressed By Mary Van Rensselaer Thayer. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 6, 1949. p. S1 (2 pages) Second page: We must, of course, overlook the probably painfully true crack about our heroes, current in England at that time "--(they're overpaid, oversexed and, worst of all, _over here_." BRITISH WIT VET [1917]. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 23, 1950. p. 12 (1 page): "Oversexed, overpaid, and over here." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 08:20:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:20:50 -0500 Subject: "Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug" (1991); Smile (1870) Message-ID: "THERE ARE MANY LANGUAGES, BUT A SMILE SPEAKS ALL OF THEM" "Smile speaks all languages" is in varying froms. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Grand Traverse Herald Thursday, December 01, 1870 Traverse City, Michigan ...or tongues makes any dif- ference. A SMILE SPEAKS the universal lan- guage.....Thin hands whose labor is nearly Calm SMILE uf happiness lost and won. Closely.. Edwardsville Intelligencer Thursday, June 09, 1927 Edwardsville, Illinois ...be that is the time laugh heartily. A SMILE SPEAKS all languages. Cleanliness.....chestnuts without getting so much as a SMILE from the and then to.. Dothan Eagle Sunday, March 11, 1951 Dothan, Alabama ...THE DOTHAN EAGLE. March 1951 FOR TODAY SMILE SPEAKS the universal language. I.....value myself o n says is on-having a SMILE -that low. They are such prompt.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, May 20, 1999 Syracuse, New York ...a hundred lan- guages in the world. A SMILE SPEAKS for all of them. Youth is a.....grand- children. Don'i go to bed mad. SMILE often. Life is like chocolate cake.. -------------------------------------------------------------- "SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE WINDSHIELD, SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE BUG" These have become like the "full deckisms." I searched for "some days you're the" and "some times you're the." (GOOGLE) http://www.ealasaid.com/quotes/anon-unk.html "Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant." ------- Unknown Sometimes you're the pigeon, sometimes you're the statue. -------Unknown Sometimes you're the windsheild, someimes you're the bug. -------Unknown (The below is not related, but I'll look for this later in The Crimson--ed.) Harvard Law: Under the most rigidly controlled conditions of pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, and other variables, the organism will do as it damn well pleases. YOU'RE THE HYDRANT--6,930 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits YOU'RE THE STATUE--6,220 Google hits, 12,200 Google Groups hits YOU'RE THE WINDSHIELD--8,790 Google hits, 19,200 Google Groups hits (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Chronicle Telegram Saturday, May 17, 1997 Elyria, Ohio ...re THE shield, Sometimes YOU'RE THE BUG" has a message that is easier to.....using Garth Brooks' "Standing Outside THE Fire" and a Billy Dean song, "We're.. (FACTIVA) TV-Features CHUNG'S SPIRITS ARE `SOARING' AFTER SHOW OF SUPPORT Gail Shister KNIGHT-RIDDER NEWS SERVICE 574 words 7 June 1995 The Salt Lake Tribune C5 English (Copyright 1995) The moral of the story, says Connie Chung, "is that some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue." (FACTIVA) NEWS Shallow end of pool spawns pithy sayings Pull over and check the air in your head By George Gamester Toronto Star 442 words 8 January 1990 The Toronto Star FIN A4 English Copyright (c) 1990 The Toronto Star You know what we mean . . . SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE BIRD. OTHER DAYS YOU'RE THE STATUE. (FACTIVA) D;SPORTS Ringer's chapter of fairy tale ends John Hawkins THE WASHINGTON TIMES 988 words 1 July 1995 The Washington Times 2 D1 English (Copyright 1995) "Some days, you're the dog and other days, you're the fire hydrant." (FACTIVA) LEISURE GUIDE RECORD REVIEWS 'On Every Street' follows Straits' path ROCK On Every Street. Dire Straits. Warner Bros. COUNTRY For My Broken Heart. Reba McEntire. MCA. JAZZ RAP Son of the P. Digital Underground. Tommy Boy. Steve Dollar, staff writer 912 words 26 October 1991 Atlanta Journal and Constitution L/19 English (Copyright 1991 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution) Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits stick to the blueprint when they make a record these days: Like the multi-platinum 1985 effort "Brothers in Arms," "On Every Street" has a few "Money for Nothing"-type chuckle-along novelty songs, including the first single, "Calling Elvis." It has the usual portions of blues, country confession and, on the wry "The Bug" (chorus: "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug"), pop psychology. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Poll of New Ship names???? ... not? Thanx -+- -+ Nicholas C. Hester | Some days you're the bug, some days you're the | ia80... at Maine.Bitnet | windshield. | ia80024 ... rec.arts.startrek - Mar 22 1991, 7:03 am by Nicholas C. Hester - 8 messages - 8 authors annoying phone calls ... Hey, sometimes you're the semi and sometimes you're the 'possum. --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley" rec.humor - Mar 23 1991, 5:12 am by JOSEPH T CHEW PAL request ... Mail me to: asav... at otax.tky.hut.fi - Pekka ----- Andy (The Android) Combs | "Sometimes you're the windshield, android at cs ... rec.arts.anime - Sep 15 1991, 3:47 am by Alexander Banes Combs - 1 message - 1 author Star Trek and porn ... Andy (The Android) Combs | "Sometimes you're the windshield, android at cs. utexas.edu | sometimes you're the bug." | Dire Straits alt.sex.movies - Sep 28 1991, 3:34 am by Alexander Banes Combs - 29 messages - 28 authors GUS USERS! use that newsgroup! -please- ... would be using it, but this is not it. PS, you f*cked up your redirect. -- Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard - Mar 11 1993, 2:10 pm by Ron "Asbestos" Dippold - 13 messages - 10 authors bay area speed ... old dog new tricks, but you CAN beat it with a rolled up newspaper... Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the newspaper. rec.motorcycles - Aug 17 1994, 1:59 am by Go CRAZY with the CheezeWhiz - 5 messages - 5 authors MIRANDA RIGHTS ... the posts?! (Or, is it West Virginia?) -- /___/\ Sometimes you're _+__ Sometimes you're / \ the dog.... /_____\ the hydrant. ( 'v ... alt.tv.nypd-blue - Feb 3 1995, 7:03 am by Judi McCracken/ILL/Wise Library - 9 messages - 8 authors Scams against Newcomers ... The autoreplies can trickle in for days. -- Gordy Thompson some days you're the statue, g... at panix.com -=0=- some days you're the pigeon. news.newusers.questions - Jan 12 1994, 1:03 am by uh..Clem - 2 messages - 2 authors help: cmu-snmp on Solaris ... Concordia College Voice: (402) 643-7445 Computing Center Seward, NE 68434 Fax: (402) 643-4073 "Sometimes you're the pigeon, and sometimes you're the statue." comp.protocols.snmp - Oct 28 1996, 6:33 pm by Russell Mosemann - 5 messages - 5 authors From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Mar 14 11:34:40 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:34:40 -0500 Subject: Gorze: not just a furze any more Message-ID: Gorse as public enemy: http://www.taos-telecommunity.org/epow/EPOW-Archive/archive_2005/EPOW-050307.htm Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 13:36:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:36:17 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn Message-ID: "Well, I can't sleep at night. "I just _catchnap_ through the day" -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 13:44:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:44:50 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 4:32 AM -0500 3/13/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >>... >>The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, >>and both involve Brooklyn. >>... >>Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted >>that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of >>Trade Jargon. >>... >>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >>spread from the >>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >>pitches? >>... >He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >larry And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early '70's, Mungo Jerry. -Wilson Gray From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Mar 14 14:35:21 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:35:21 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: >"Well, I can't sleep at night. >"I just _catchnap_ through the day" Hmmm. Catnap? Catch a nap? I do not know the etymology, and a quick look at OED did not help me ... am I missing something? Bethany From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:40:25 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:40:25 -0800 Subject: cross amputation Message-ID: from the NYT Week in Review, 3/13/05, "Shariah's Reach", p. 4: Iran. 2002. At least three were reported sentenced to death by stoning. Amnesty International recorded 9 amputations as punishments, including one cross amputation (for example, a right hand and left foot). not in OED Online or our archives. about 1,400 Google web hits, a number of them with "cross amputation" in quotation marks, indicating that the writer didn't expect readers to be familiar with the term. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:40:56 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:40:56 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" quotes from news archive: ---------- [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, [...] ---------- Is there any credit for the author? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:46:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:46:12 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter observes: >>>>> Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) <<<<< For what it's worth, "sour" is a much better Latin pronunciation of that syllable than "sore"... although I doubt that they would have said "deeno-". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:55:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:55:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" notes: >>>>> I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): ---------- (from N'archive) _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] [...] <<<<< 1. And this is presumably the origin of "spic" for 'Puerto Rican'. 2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the apparent contradiction? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:08:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:08:11 -0500 Subject: Bomb Message-ID: In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 14 16:08:47 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:08:47 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter > When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This > was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient > undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, > but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > term. > Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a (semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:28:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:28:29 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >>>spread from the >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >>>pitches? >>>... >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html >> >>larry > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > >-Wilson Gray and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway stage)? larry From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET Mon Mar 14 16:41:36 2005 From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:41:36 +0000 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy 70s pop hit. Carrie Lowery jimsmuse at comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's > >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a > >>>spread from the > >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage > >>>pitches? > >>>... > >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm > >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See > >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >> > >>larry > > > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early > >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > > > >-Wilson Gray > > and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > stage)? > > larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:48:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:48:54 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:35 AM -0500 3/14/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>"Well, I can't sleep at night. >>"I just _catchnap_ through the day" > >Hmmm. Catnap? Catch a nap? I do not know the etymology, and a quick look >at OED did not help me ... am I missing something? > >Bethany I don't think you're missing anything. I took this, as I'm assuming Wilson did, as an eggcorn in which "catnap" was reanalyzed by influence from "catch a nap", whence "catchnap". Nice one! Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 16:55:05 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:55:05 -0500 Subject: Herp Message-ID: Richard Dawkins, in The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution (2004), writes on page 250 of the U.S. edition about the distinctive term "herp": <> While there are abbreviations without long forms, such as Ms. and Mrs. (the latter originally but no longer an abbreviation for mistress), I take it that herp is something simpler and commoner: a back-formation, probably from herpetology. Google Groups has "herps" from 12/11/1989 and a reference to the "Chicago "Herp" Society" on 3/19/1986. Dawkins also introduces "concestor," his coinage for a common ancestor, used passim throughout the book. We'll see if it catches on. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Mar 14 17:42:08 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:42:08 -0800 Subject: Bomb Message-ID: Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. Fritz >>> halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Mon Mar 14 17:46:19 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:46:19 -0600 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <200503141742.j2EHgU1m023066@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: I can refer to something as being "the bomb," meaning excellent. Different from the MIT slang list meaning, but still an AmEng positive meaning. Rachel FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: Bomb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. > I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. > Fritz > > >>>>halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> > > In the MIT slang list was: > > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East > Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage > - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To > me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of > 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it > has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 14 18:27:02 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:27:02 -0800 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: The paddle. "It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. ----- i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 18:45:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:45:38 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I would have said "deenosou'rus" back when I was speaking Latin on a daily basis. Well, five days a week anyway. "Dinosaurus" did not appear in any of our authors, however. Pity. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter observes: >>>>> Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) <<<<< For what it's worth, "sour" is a much better Latin pronunciation of that syllable than "sore"... although I doubt that they would have said "deeno-". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Mar 14 18:48:39 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:48:39 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: Like a cross?? On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as "not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:00:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:00:48 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, Mark. "Spic" had an alternate, now obsolete, spelling as "spig." Both were common in the armed services. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Douglas G. Wilson" notes: >>>>> I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): ---------- (from N'archive) _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] [...] <<<<< 1. And this is presumably the origin of "spic" for 'Puerto Rican'. 2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the apparent contradiction? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:06:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:06:23 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <4235B70F.8080600@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 11:08 AM -0500 3/14/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > >>When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This >> was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient >> undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, >> but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > >>Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > > term. > >>Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." > >Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening >catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't >think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot >in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a >(semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something >positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). > And "dirt" used to be a lot *more* negative; even the "filth" sense is a narrowing/amelioration from the original drecative meaning. (See OED, sense 1.) Larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Mar 14 19:00:55 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <1110816491.4235b6eb4bb08@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: To "bomb" a test meant to fail it badly when I was in school in the 1970s. Joanne On 14 Mar 2005, at 11:08, Damien Hall wrote: > In the MIT slang list was: > > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East > Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage > - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To > me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of > 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it > has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:06:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:06:29 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've interpreted those T-shirts to communicate humorously and punningly the covert prestige of being a small child whose report card reads "Plays in the dirt," i.e., like a naughty little brat. Another famous report-card comment is "Runs with scissors," indicating a tiny, heedless simpleton who's probably going to kill h**self some day. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Lighter > When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This > was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient > undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, > but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > term. > Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a (semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:09:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:09:47 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0800 3/14/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. It is half of a crucifix, after all. Maybe at places like Robert E. Lee Elementary in Oklahoma, the mind tends to complete the crucifix with the missing perpendicular the way one tends to complete triangles with missing parts... Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 19:11:36 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:11:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Note that, as so often is the case, personal selectivity and interpretation matter a great deal. McConnell could have interpreted the verse as simply urging punishment and discipline, without being specific as to the manner of the punishment. He could also have emphasized the New Testament teachings of Jesus, which typically mitigate the severity of the Old Testament teachings. An example would be "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7) That McConnell chose instead to advocate beating the children in his care was the result of his own choices, not just a neutral reading of the Bible. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:27 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: adjective "Christian" from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: The paddle. "It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. ----- i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:14:59 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:59 -0600 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Puritan is my guess. Barbara From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:16:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:16:22 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B8B@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... L From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:20:17 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:20:17 -0600 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L Except that I have often seen material from the Old Testament co-opted as "Christian". Barbara From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 19:22:08 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:22:08 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not keeping kosher. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:23:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:23:43 -0800 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Then there's the mysterious Planet Mongo and its villainous ruler, Ming the Merciless, big deals in Flash Gordon serials of the '30s. A personal note. I used to wonder how Mungo Park got such a cool name. In high school I was tempted to tell people to "call me Mungo." Never did though. JL Your Name wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Your Name Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy 70s pop hit. Carrie Lowery jimsmuse at comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's > >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a > >>>spread from the > >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage > >>>pitches? > >>>... > >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm > >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See > >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >> > >>larry > > > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early > >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > > > >-Wilson Gray > > and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > stage)? > > larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:26:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:26:47 -0800 Subject: Herp In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The editors and contributors to _Reptiles_ magazine, aimed at pet-owners and breeders, use "herp" freely to include amphibians as well. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Herp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dawkins, in The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution (2004), writes on page 250 of the U.S. edition about the distinctive term "herp": <> While there are abbreviations without long forms, such as Ms. and Mrs. (the latter originally but no longer an abbreviation for mistress), I take it that herp is something simpler and commoner: a back-formation, probably from herpetology. Google Groups has "herps" from 12/11/1989 and a reference to the "Chicago "Herp" Society" on 3/19/1986. Dawkins also introduces "concestor," his coinage for a common ancestor, used passim throughout the book. We'll see if it catches on. John Baker __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:33:18 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:33:18 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACC3A@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: At 2:22 PM -0500 3/14/05, Baker, John wrote: > McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >keeping kosher. > Or not getting circumcised, or wearing wool with linen, or ruling out slavery,... >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > > >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:36:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:36:55 -0800 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., 'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going on since at least 1997. ISTR the test-related positive usage from the distant past but am too lazy to dig out HDAS I for it right now. (It may simply be autosuggestion, however.) JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: Bomb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. Fritz >>> halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:43:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:43:49 -0800 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I think the "meaning" is the same; it's just being used by a #^!%@*& Shifts in meaning encouraged by the usage of #^!%@*&s have not been adequately studied, IMO. JL David Bergdahl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like a cross?? On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as "not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:54:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:54:23 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ah, "drecative." A star is born! JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:08 AM -0500 3/14/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > >>When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This >> was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient >> undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, >> but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > >>Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > > term. > >>Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." > >Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening >catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't >think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot >in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a >(semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something >positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). > And "dirt" used to be a lot *more* negative; even the "filth" sense is a narrowing/amelioration from the original drecative meaning. (See OED, sense 1.) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:06:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:23 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" [but WOT-WG] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the day, I used to have as a colleague one "Dave." He and I got along quite well. Given that this was the mid-'Fifties and that Dave was white guy in his sixties, whereas I was a black kid in his teens, socially, he was a far-left-wing liberal. When one of our bosses angered him, he turned to the Bible for sustenance, using the Old-testament bit about "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" as the basis of his fantasies of avenging himself against the offending superior. Finally, one day, as Dave began one his rants - "You know what the Bible says, etc." - I said to him, "Dave, the Bible also says, "Vengeance is *mine*, sayeth the Lord. *I* shall repay." Dave was stunned, looking at me as though I had lost my mind. Finally, he was able to blurt out, "But, but, that's in the NEW Testament!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that belief in the New Testament was one of the things that made Christians Christians, whatever their denomination. FTR, I'm a no-longer-practicing, Jesuit-educated adherent of The One True Faith, i.e. Catholicism. (Lest anyone misunderstand, I use the phrase, "The One True Faith," facetiously. It is/was? a Jesuitic cliche.) I converted as a child as soon as I became aware of the fact that one can hear Mass in as few as fifteen minutes, one day a week as opposed to the Protestant regimen of five hours of Sunday services and four more hours during the rest of the week. And we weren't even Baptists, just Methodists. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Note that, as so often is the >case, personal selectivity and interpretation matter a great deal. >McConnell could have interpreted the verse as simply urging >punishment and discipline, without being specific as to the manner >of the punishment. He could also have emphasized the New Testament >teachings of Jesus, which typically mitigate the severity of the Old >Testament teachings. An example would be "He that is without sin >among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7) That >McConnell chose instead to advocate beating the children in his care >was the result of his own choices, not just a neutral reading of the >Bible. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Arnold M. Zwicky >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:27 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: adjective "Christian" > > >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:10:32 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:10:32 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Beautifully put, John. As the Fire Sigb Theater used to say, "Hear! >Hear! There! There!" -Wilson > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >keeping kosher. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > > >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:20:09 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:20:09 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You dodged a bullet on that one, Jon! -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Then there's the mysterious Planet Mongo and its villainous ruler, >Ming the Merciless, big deals in Flash Gordon serials of the '30s. > >A personal note. I used to wonder how Mungo Park got such a cool >name. In high school I was tempted to tell people to "call me >Mungo." Never did though. > >JL > >Your Name wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Your Name >Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of >Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm >fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo >Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for >his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion >of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should >mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy >70s pop hit. > >Carrie Lowery >jimsmuse at comcast.net > >-------------- Original message -------------- > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >> >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >> >>>spread from the >> >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for >>throwing garbage >> >>>pitches? >> >>>... >> >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >> >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >> >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html >> >> >> >>larry >> > >> >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early >> >'70's, Mungo Jerry. >> > >> >-Wilson Gray >> >> and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > > stage)? > > > > larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:42:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:42:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think the "meaning" is the same; it's just being used by a #^!%@*& > >Shifts in meaning encouraged by the usage of #^!%@*&s have not been >adequately studied, IMO. > >JL >David Bergdahl wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bergdahl >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Like a cross?? > >On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some >Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox >Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and >don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as >"not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! Not if you were schooled by the Jesuits during the 'Fifties. The world was divided into two kinds of people, "Christians" and "non-Catholics." And, as I've noted elsewhere, I used to be a church-going Methodist myself, by coincidence. -Wilson Gray >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 14 21:03:06 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:03:06 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You guys think this is something. Haven't you had any discussions lately about who's a "real linguist"? dInIs >At 2:22 PM -0500 3/14/05, Baker, John wrote: >> McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >>Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >>keeping kosher. >> > >Or not getting circumcised, or wearing wool with linen, or ruling out >slavery,... > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >>Of Laurence Horn >>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >> >>> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." >> >>Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... >> >>L -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Mar 14 21:33:36 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:33:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: Who wrote: "Spare the rod and spoil the child," Solomon said, in accents mild. "Be he boy or be he maid, Beat 'em & wallop 'em," Solomon said. ....? Maybe Chesterton or Belloc? AM From kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG Mon Mar 14 21:53:04 2005 From: kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG (Katy Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:53:04 -0500 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <200503141507606.SM03624@psmtp.com> Message-ID: OH, these posts have brought back some awful, painful memories. Absolutely no way on God's green earth can those things be called Christian. I am (well my buttocks are) all too familiar with that "footlong piece of wood [that] hung on every classroom wall like a symbol...." of sadism. And it wasn't a foot long either, that's way too short to inflict the kind of damage that's intended. Damned baseball coach/American history teacher drilled holes in his, said it made it more aerodynamic. It had to be two feet long. We called 'em "swats." And almost never as a verb, just a noun. "You're gonna get swats" or "How many swats you get for that?" I don't remember any specific word for the paddle itself. Katy Oh and ps. This was in HIGH SCHOOL. Seminole, TX circa 1986. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 22:51:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:51:22 -0800 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: OED has "paddywhack," as "a severe beating, a violent blow" from an English dial. source as recent as 1898. "Paddywhack" was another of my grandmother's words, from NYC about 1895 or a little later. It must be significantly older than that in American use. As I heard it, it was a punitive swat with the hand on a child's rear end, certainly not a "severe beating" or "violent blow." And certainly its use was at least influenced by "paddle," if not descended directly from (unattested?) "paddle whack." OED also instances the song "This Old Man" from the 1920s. Neither grandparent was familiar with this when I brought it home from school about 1958. JL Katy Miller wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Katy Miller Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OH, these posts have brought back some awful, painful memories. Absolutely no way on God's green earth can those things be called Christian. I am (well my buttocks are) all too familiar with that "footlong piece of wood [that] hung on every classroom wall like a symbol...." of sadism. And it wasn't a foot long either, that's way too short to inflict the kind of damage that's intended. Damned baseball coach/American history teacher drilled holes in his, said it made it more aerodynamic. It had to be two feet long. We called 'em "swats." And almost never as a verb, just a noun. "You're gonna get swats" or "How many swats you get for that?" I don't remember any specific word for the paddle itself. Katy Oh and ps. This was in HIGH SCHOOL. Seminole, TX circa 1986. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 14 21:23:14 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:23:14 -0500 Subject: New MSM Definition Message-ID: I saw "MSM" on the Web lately but had trouble figuring it out. Duh: Mainstream Media. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MSM&r=f Example: http://www.wonkette.com/politics/media/starr-report-partisan-cartoon-journo- zings-prez-035902.php David From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 14 23:37:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:37:02 -0600 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: > I don't remember >any specific word for the paddle itself. Our Study Hall monitor called his "the board of education." In the movie Dazed and Confused, a paddle used for purposes of hazing (and wielded by Ben Affleck, in an early role -- a great movie) is labled "FAH Q". From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Mar 14 23:52:48 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:52:48 -0500 Subject: cross amputation Message-ID: An entry in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 5.3-4; c. 1989) provides the form _cross-amputation_. The e.q. (earliest quote) is 1984. However, since then I've found the following: An Omdurman court found Al-Wathig Sabah Al-Khair guilty of three counts of armed robbery, punishable according to Islamic law by death, crucifixion, or cross amputation of hands and feet. "Thief to be executed then crucified," _Daily Gleaner_ [Kingston, Jamaica] (NewspaperArchive.com), June 15, 1984, p 9 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 14, 2005 at 10:40 AM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: cross amputation >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >from the NYT Week in Review, 3/13/05, "Shariah's Reach", p. 4: > >Iran. 2002. At least three were reported sentenced to death by >stoning. Amnesty International recorded 9 amputations as punishments, >including one cross amputation (for example, a right hand and left >foot). > >not in OED Online or our archives. about 1,400 Google web hits, a >number of them with "cross amputation" in quotation marks, indicating >that the writer didn't expect readers to be familiar with the term. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 14 23:57:57 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:57:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <20050314105256.P72941@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not >a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of >stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish >ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly >acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the >apparent contradiction? I don't take the expression as anything other than English. The usual full expression, I suppose would be "[I] speak [the] English" (taxi driver or merchant trying to do business, etc.) or "I don't speak [the] English" (maybe sometimes "No speak [the] English") (non-English-speaker responding to question or request in English). No doubt there was a wide range of pronunciations, from perfect US-style English to utter silence or pure Spanish from those who knew no English at all. What would be memorable to the new arrivals would be the recognizable but accented pronunciations in the middle of the spectrum. Stereotypes aside, I don't know what percentage of Puerto Ricans would have had difficulty with initial /sp/ or the /kd/ in "speak de". But it looks to me like the overall impression was that the locals said "spickety" or "spiggety" or so a lot. Maybe for every local who said "No speaka de English" there were ten who said "I don' speak English" ... but the unremarkable latter version would be ignored in deriving the slang epithet, I think. Any need for a vowel before /sp/ may have been fulfilled by preceding "I" etc. in many cases too. This is just my speculation and I don't claim any relevant expertise. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 15 01:22:02 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:22:02 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <20050314193655.6685.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >on since at least 1997. I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS entry for _the joint_. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 01:27:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:27:45 -0800 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Jesse, I hate it when you cite my own works against me. But I proactively wrote "at least." JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: Bomb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >on since at least 1997. I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS entry for _the joint_. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 15 02:22:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:22:37 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the '50's - unfortunately, I can't find a single exact date for him - there was Robert P. "H-Bomb" Ferguson, known to DJ's as "The Bomb." IMO, the "bomb" referenced in today's slang is likewise the H-bomb. Note that I'm *not* suggesting any connection whatsoever between the contemporary bomb and H-Bomb Ferguson. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Bomb >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jesse, I hate it when you cite my own works against me. But I >proactively wrote "at least." > >JL > >Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >Subject: Re: Bomb >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >>'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >>on since at least 1997. > >I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example >I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction >to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". >There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS >entry for _the joint_. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Mar 15 02:32:52 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:32:52 -0600 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as "oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? Gerald Cohen From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 15 04:14:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:14:42 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: <6F58D6CB.34B94059.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: My wife watches some of the redcorating TV shows, I think in hopes of altering our house so that it is saleable. Whatever, and at any rate, she pointed out a change out from to , as in "change out the linens (instead of change the linens); or change out the window treatments (yech) (instead of change the window treatments)". I railed and ranted about interior decorator speak, and it not being legitimate mainstrem language. Howsomeever and notwithstanding, I have noticed that I'm hearning where I would expect to hear a simple . Unfortunately for my career, I can't provide eamples. I've not been a careful linguist. However, my question is, is anyone hearing where they would expect ? JCS From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 04:36:08 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:36:08 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have any authoritative data, but I've been hearing this since ca. 1990 applied to computer (PC) components and the like. Google Groups shows it from ca. 1986. I think "change out" usually means "remove and replace" rather than "alter", while "change" could mean either. So altering your hard drive (e.g.) by changing the jumpers (but leaving the drive in place) would not be "changing out" the drive, while taking out the drive and putting in a new one instead would be "changing out" the drive ... I think. I don't know exactly how the decorators use this. I would assume that a window treatment could be changed in some ways without removing anything (say by adding some frill or other); I would guess that this alteration wouldn't be called "changing out". Sometimes I've heard "swap out" used like "change out" in this sense. Just my casual impression. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 05:49:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:49:19 EST Subject: "Winning is the best deodorant" (1996) Message-ID: WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Nets stagger in, then_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/289778p-248110c.html) New York Daily News, NY - 20 hour ... of his locker room before playing Orlando. "The best deodorant, the all-time best soap, is winning.". If that is the case, the Nets ... ... ... ... Winning is the best deodorant? I saw the above on page 50, col. 1, of the Daily News. Jason Kidd of the Nets has been using this line for a few years. Maybe it's in a "Right Guard" commercial? ... Did John Madden coin it? ... I don't have FACTIVA handy. ... 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"Winning is the best deodorant." -- Jason Kidd. Post Extras: Print Post, Vopat#38 captain Reged: 09/04/03 Posts: 828 Loc: Finland, Espoo, ... www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/ showflat.php?Cat=&Number=247140&Main=176633 - 36k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:-MrFXoQ4V-4J:www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat= &Number=247140&Main=176633+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=247140&Main=1766 33) ... _March 09, 2005_ (http://www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january2003/) ... QUOTES OF THE DAY "We have to find a way to get back to playing Nets basketball and get a win out on this trip. Winning is the best deodorant." -- Jason Kidd. ... www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january2003/ - 101k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1jyDgastETIJ:www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january 2003/+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.slamonline.com/links /archive/january2003/) _Seath - 3rd at Pacifc NW Ultra (Iron) Triathlon Championships ..._ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-9917336-6364062?action=next- page&target=web-search/redirect.html&ws_page=&ws_position=3&ws_type=google_reg ular&url=http://www.teamdobbiaco.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=art icle&sid=83) ... Cycling Quotations. Winning is the best deodorant. Someone can look at your bike and say it stinks, but if you win with it, suddenly it's okay. -- Jim Busby. ... http://www.teamdobbiaco.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file... _Cached_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-9917336-6364062?action=next-page&target=web-search/redirect.html&ws_page=&ws_position=3&ws_type= google_cached&url=http%3A//www.google.com/search%3Fq%3Dcache%3Ar7efs%5FkpBQAJ% 3Awww.teamdobbiaco.com/modules.php%3Fop%3Dmodload%26name%3DNews%26file%3Dartic le%26sid%3D83%2B%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8) - (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-9917336-6364062?action=next-page&target=web-search/ redirect.html&url=http://amznredirect.alexa.com/amzn/redirect_to_detail?url=ht tp://www.teamdobbiaco.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=83 &nae=1) ... ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) _JERRY JONES MUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys/browse_frm/thread/8f45a5aa35f4c4cf/d74275 e1e25b3e21?q="winning+is+the+best+deodorant"#d74275e1e25b3e21) ... 2) "He may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole" 3) "Winning is the best deodorant in the world." 4) "There is no such thing as BAD publicity" .... ... _alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys) - Jun 7 1996, 8:42 am by Donnie Renfrow - 17 messages - 15 authors ... ... From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 06:03:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:03:56 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050314232505.0300dac0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On-line newspaper search shows this "change out" from way back. I don't recall it even from the 1970's myself. Random examples: ---------- _Odessa [TX] American_, 16 Feb. 1958: p. 5: [Improvements in telephone equipment] <> ---------- _Valley Morning Star_ [Harlingen TX], 21 Nov. 1948: "Fair Section", p. 6: <> ---------- _Coshocton [OH] Tribune_, 24 Aug. 1967: p. 3(?): <> ---------- At a glance, it seems like the noun "change-out" may predate the verb "change out". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 06:37:48 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:37:48 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <20050314002106.89570.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" >(ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? I can't find any "goog". I do find "googie" as an alternative (diminutive, I guess) for "goo-goo" = "Filipino" (1899). I read somewhere a speculation that this "goo-goo" might be derived from "gugu" meaning a local plant used like shampoo in the Philippines. I can't recall the datails. An on-line dictionary does show "gugu" = "shampoo" in Kapampangan, = "gugo" in Tagalog. Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. On a lighter note, Safire's column in *1995* [entitled "Goo-goo Eyes"] stated (in response to somebody who recalled "goo-goo" = "Filipino") that the word for Filipinos is "gook", which has nothing whatever to do with "goo-goo". -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 15 07:27:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:27:34 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about "gobble-de-gook"? -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" >>(ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? > >I can't find any "goog". I do find "googie" as an alternative (diminutive, >I guess) for "goo-goo" = "Filipino" (1899). > >I read somewhere a speculation that this "goo-goo" might be derived from >"gugu" meaning a local plant used like shampoo in the Philippines. I can't >recall the datails. An on-line dictionary does show "gugu" = "shampoo" in >Kapampangan, = "gugo" in Tagalog. > >Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to >Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to >political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); >this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy >Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. >Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical >reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items >whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. > >On a lighter note, Safire's column in *1995* [entitled "Goo-goo Eyes"] >stated (in response to somebody who recalled "goo-goo" = "Filipino") that >the word for Filipinos is "gook", which has nothing whatever to do with >"goo-goo". > >-- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 08:34:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:34:10 EST Subject: Hammer/Nail;"Knock cover off ball" (pre-1896); "Refs swallowed whistles" (1930s) Message-ID: SOMETIMES YOU'RE THE HAMMER, SOMETIMES YOU'RE THE NAIL ... YOU'RE THE HAMMER--447 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits. ... ... I left this one out of the last post, but I'll include it because William Safire might want to tie it into recent Washington politics. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Delay and Company_ (http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/14/delay.company.tm/) CNN - 13 ho ... Thanks to an unusually close and trusting relationship with his boss, Tom DeLay's chief of ... at getting his way that he became known as "the Hammer," and as he ... _Republicans feel the blows as 'the Hammer' comes in for a ..._ (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/cff12224-942e-11d9-9d6e-00000e2511c8.html) Financial - 29 messages - 18 authors _www.goog_ (http://www.goog) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SPORTS CLICHES ... I'm looking for "sports cliches" for the "Dr. Cliche"...I wonder if the good doctor realizes that I worked ten hours in a room with no air, that I almost passed out again today, and that I have no healthcare. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Sport Story Cliches Get Editor's Ax_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=504279822&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1110868948&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 5, 1953. p. D6 (1 page) ... The report listed the 10 most disliked cliches as selected in a poll of Associated press member paper sports editors. Here, in the order of their detestation, they are: ... Mentor, inked pact, pay dirt, circuit clout, gonfalon, roaring back from behind, outclassed but game, clobber, gridders, cage or cagers. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "KNOCK THE COVER OFF THE BALL" ... On page 108 in Dr. Cliche's book is "He Ripped the Cover Off the Ball: Batter Cliches." It's from at least 1896. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Daily Miner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2jDh79c+auIvfrCqR7ctu8cRXo9KEVIjaw==) Friday, August 29, 1884 _Butte,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:butte+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...no taa. levied for knocking THE COVER OFF THE BALL he will play. Robinson says.....and THE mine owners at mlQlojs Utles COVER town submitted at THE re- cent.. ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2uV/ZQ+LFcXGdQ6WxA4Us8rQsVdjgMARHkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, May 25, 1887 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...game and nearly pounded THE COVER OFF THE BALL. THE Bloomingtou players.....cat-fish weighing 171 pounds was taken OFF a trout line at THE river yesterday.. ... _Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z1F8QY91aICKID/6NLMW2gGdIv0OpkmR2Id0TSiFg2RknPLt7TrG1UIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 05, 1885 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...ones Tbe lleds nearly batted tho COVER OFF THE BALL and kept THE visitors en.....THE Deoatnr barbers. THE game will OFF at THE base BALL park, and promises.. ... _Steubenville Daily Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2rwaMTS4M8l+GOOdOMiyaQEjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Monday, April 06, 1896 _Steubenville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:steubenville+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...watch tho recruits "knock THE COVER OFF THE BALL" THEy only hope and say in.....biko last rail helped to increase THE BALL players' prejudice against THE.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- REFS SWALLOWED THEIR WHISTLES ... >From Dr. Cliche, BEST SPORTS CLICHES EVER!, pg. 67: "The Refs Swallowed Their Whistles: Officiating Cliches." This appears to be from at least the 1930s. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Time Out!_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=249341572&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110870500&clientId=658 82) By Chet Smith. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 5, 1936. p. X16 (1 page) : "Hey there--give us a hand--the referee just swallowed his whistle!" ... ... _THE SPORTS X-RAY_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=394810201&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110873271&clien tId=65882) BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 6, 1937. p. A11 (1 page) : Here's good news for local basketball fans. Nope, the officials haven't been ordered to swallow their whistles, but Coach Sam Barry of the Trojans and Coach Caddy Works of the Bruins have instructed the referees and umpires to call only fouls that are flagrant and quite apparently intentional. ... ... _HAWKS BEAT RED WINGS, 4-3; TAKE 2D PLACE; 15,741 WATCH DOUG BENTLEY SCORE 3 GOALS Officials Razzed in Wild 3d Period. That's That! _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=472028092&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD &RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110872690&clientId=65882) EDWARD BURNS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 26, 1943. p. 19 (1 page) : The goal cancellation, made after Meuris apparently had swallowed his whistle, helped the game, for it meant the Hawks had to protect a one goal lead thruout the entire scoreless third period, whereas they'd have had a taming two-goal margin ig Smith's goal had been allowed. ... ... _New Basketball Rules Blamed For Too Much Whistle Blowing; Begovich, Leading Referee and Coach, Says Officials Are Unjustly Accused -- Offers Three Steps for Solving the Problem _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=88611029&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110873024 &clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 3, 1948. p. 18 (1 page): Gray, in viewing a game between Pennsylvania and Illinois two weeks ago, remarked "I thought one of the officials would swallow his whistle. It hardly ever left his mouth." ... From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Mar 15 10:14:53 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:14:53 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo Message-ID: Doug Wilson wrote: >>Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to >>Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to >>political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); >>this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy >>Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. >>Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical >>reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items >>whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. A wartime (or insurrection-time) diary (1900-01) published online by the US Army contains the following entries. Note that 'nigger' is used more often then 'gugu', which seems to have entered this solier's vocabulary some time after entering the Philipines. Another entry also contained a colorful turn of phrase for starving a prisoner: > had the fellow on a diet of wind-pudding and dreams for about 24 hours >before he told where the guns were. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/archival/white/transcript1.asp Combined Arms Research Library Command & General Staff College Fort Leavenworth, Kansas Digital Library Transcription of Karl D. White Diaries > >May 28th:: The boys hiked all day Friday, getting in here about suppertime >but found no niggers. I went to Orani Friday & while there had a little >misunderstanding with Corp. Sturgiss of Co. L. and he had charges >preferred against me. Saturday I hiked out in the morning with a detail & >met a bull train coming down from Orani. After I got back I cleaned up >my gun and then in the P.M. worked at the floor of the addition to the >quarters (planed most of the time, with Jack-plane). That night report >was brought in that a body of about 300 gugu's had been seen near Orani >headed this way & we were warned to look out for them I got on as an >extra guard & spent the night laying behind a rice-paddy. That evening >another detail went to Orani & came back yesterday. Corp. Duncan came >with them (came to Orani Friday) and bought a set of boxing gloves. This >forenoon I went up before Lieut. Schaeffer & got a little (Fuedslar) >blind. Capt. Griffiths is trying to clear me but Schaeffer is bull-headed. >This A M morning the guard was ordered to shoot all the dogs in town & >in a few couple of hours there were forty of them ready to haul off. > > Boxing has been the order of the day today. Just after dinner we had a >little "go" between a couple of hombres? Duncan says he saw Jess & that >he is pretty thin & in bad shape. He let him have a couple of dollars on >my account. He (Duncan) took his niggers to Lingauyes prison all O.K. > >Aug 9th Was on guard yesterday and last night. No. one post. During the >night two nigger prisoners escaped. Yesterday Capt Eckers with a >detachment from here and Lieut Crawford with a detachment from Hermosa >were each out scouring around about three miles east of here. Lieut >Crawford and his party found a gang of armed gugus, killed four or five >(including a captain, captured two and four rifles a pistol and a saber. >Today Lewis and Pride, on duty at the gravel pit were fired on while >busy cooking their dinner. The gugus were on three sides of them and they >were nearly two miles from the rest of the road gang so took to their >heels and went for the rest of the guard. The niggers chased them till >they met the rest of the guard coming to their aid (they had heard the >fireing) and then it was white's chase niggers but they all got away. Both >Mauser and Remington cartridges were picked up where the niggers had >b(een) concealed when they fi opened fire. The boys their dinner and >their havesacks, canteens, ponchos. This was a jubilee day with the >niggers. They finished up the road work and were given a "big dinner" >of American grub: Bacon, salmon, hardtack bread etc. There was a big gang >of them turned out and the band went above to keep things lively. They >came in tonight with the band playing and everybody happy and yelling at >his best. Co H. was down here today to play our team a game of base >ball. We sent them home beat but it was a close game: score 13 to 12. > >Jan 31st- [1901] Was on O.G.F. on the 29th We got out the big wagon and >"policed up" the streets. Yesterday I was in Orani and today am on Guard. >Eleven gugus surrendered their arms and took the oath of allegiance >here at Samal Monday night and two came in here with their guns & >surrendered Tuesday night. Several have gone from around here and >surrendered to the 41st because they were afraid to surrender to the 32nd. >We got states mail Tuesday. > Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 10:46:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:46:46 EST Subject: Pizza: a slice of heaven (2005); Sometimes the bear eats you Message-ID: SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU (continued) ... I should remind everyone looking at the hammer/nail, windshield/bug, dog/hydrant, bird/statue thread that I'd posted "sometimes you eat/hunt the bear, and sometimes the bear eats/hunts you" (1904). I re-checked a little and found this. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Other 2 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325785442&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110877818&cl ientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 16, 1897. p. 6 (1 page) : Bear hunting is fine sport--so long as you hunt the bear. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PIZZA: A SLICE OF HEAVEN THE ULTIMATE GUIDE AND COMPANION by Ed Levine with special guest deliveries from Nora Ephron, Mario Batali, Calvin Trillin and many others New York: Universe Publishing 368 pages, paperback, $24.95 2005 ... ... I bought this book a few days ago at the Barnes & Noble on 8th Street and 6th Avenue, then walked to 28 Carmine Street to sample the new pizza restaurant there. The buffalo mozzarrella pizza was very good. ... On the restaurant wall was the story of the "Margherita" pizza. I looked at the menu for some time, memorizing it, and then stared at the wall for some time. "It's true," the waiter told me, happy to share his knowledge with someone new at all this. ... And then I thought, maybe I'll tell him, look, my name is Barry Popik, and I'm looking at this because...I helped put "Margherita" pizza in the Oxford English Dictionary.. ... Why wasn't I asked to contribute to Ed Levine's book? Yes, I'm Barry Popik, and I solved the "hot dog," and maybe in a million years I'll earn a single penny, but I'm sure Ed Levine could've used some pizza history... ... Lots of people are here--Eric Asimov, Sam Sifton, John T. Edge, Roy Blount Jr., Jeffrey Steingarten--and it's an entertaining pizza trip around the U.S. "Pizza Margherita" was invented in 1889 again, so I'll re-post this piece here: ;;; Queen Margaret at Naples. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1880. p. 2 (1 page) _Queen Margaret at Naples._ >From the Geneva Gazette. ... Queen Margaret is in Naples at the palace of Capediamonte, and a story is related of her which explains the secret of her popularity among the people. A favorite eatable with the Neapolitans is the pizza, a sort of cake beaten flat in a round form, and seasoned with carious condiments. The Queen sent for a pizzaimole, who is famous for his skill in making these cakes, as she said "she wanted to eat likethe poor people." The man went to the palace, was received, and having shown a list of thirty-five varieties of pizza, was sent to the royal kitchen to make the kind which the Queen had selected. He made eight, which were the ideals of their kind, and the little Prince and his mother found them excellent, but to eat as the poor people in Naples eat--that is often not all, and is more than could be expected. But she has visited the poor quarter of Naples, and sympathizes with the misery she sees there. ... Pg. 58: An "American Pizza Timeline" is here, but it's just when certain pizza places opened. ... Pg. 82: Manhattan Pizza. The section is already dated, as I proved that evening! ... Pg. 140: Pizza a la Grandma. An interesting chapter on "granfma' pizza" origins. Pg. 143's "where to buy grandma pizza" is "an admittedly incomplete list." The place I first had it--Maffei pizza, on 6th Avenue, near the Barnes & Noble and Bed, Bath & Beyond just below 23rd Street, is not listed. ... Pg. 164: New Haven Pizza. Who cares? They make pizza there? ... Pg. 216: Chicago and Midwestern Pizza. No discussion of the Chicago origin of "stuffed pizza"? None?? ... Pg. 260: Hawaii Pizza. No discussion of the origin of "Hawaiian pizza" (pineapple and ham, and it might come from New York)? ... Pg. 277: Frozen Pizza. The origins of this are not explained at all. Tombstone? Put that on your tombstone, Ed? Remember that line? ... Pg. 298: Planet Pizza. This book doesn't care about the planet. FWIW, I recently had great pizza in the Dominican Republic. My ADS-L travel notes are better than this! ... Pg. 359: Glossary. It's very skimpy, containing only these words:Cornicione, DOC (Denominazione di Origine Controllate), DOP (Denominazione di Origine Protetta), Double-zero flour, Fior di Latte, Grandma Pizza, Hole Structure, Margherita, Marinara, Mozzarella di Bufala, Pizza Bianza, Pizzaiolo, San Marzano Tomato, and VPN (Vera Pizza Napoletana). ... And that's the book. The story of "Sicilian" slice pizza is probably here somewhere, but it's not even a chapter. White pizza? Spinach pizza? Broccoli pizza? Pepperoni pizza? Anchovies? Eggplant? Closed pizza (calzone)? Apizza? Pizze? Pizza? Pizza without cheese? Whole wheat pizza? Kosher pizza? Chocolate pizza? Buffalo wings pizza? Four cheese pizza? Pizza knots? "You've tried the rest, now try the best" on pizza boxes? The origin of the pizza guy's "OK" sign? Pizza blister (see Robert Hendrickson's NEW YAWK TAWK)? Why aren't these easily explained and defined and dated? I could have done that for less than a penny. Yeah, I know, but I'm Barry Popik. I do parking tickets. ... Pizza in song? "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie"? Not here. Pizza in the movies? Danny Aiello in DO THE RIGHT THING? Not here. ... The book will surely get glowing reviews. As an assembly of the authors and places you know about already, it's all here. But is that what "the ultimate guide and companion" should be? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 12:08:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:08:29 -0800 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes indeed, but I can't give you a citation. It's been noticeable for a couple of years at least. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: change > change out ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife watches some of the redcorating TV shows, I think in hopes of altering our house so that it is saleable. Whatever, and at any rate, she pointed out a change out from to , as in "change out the linens (instead of change the linens); or change out the window treatments (yech) (instead of change the window treatments)". I railed and ranted about interior decorator speak, and it not being legitimate mainstrem language. Howsomeever and notwithstanding, I have noticed that I'm hearning where I would expect to hear a simple . Unfortunately for my career, I can't provide eamples. I've not been a careful linguist. However, my question is, is anyone hearing where they would expect ? JCS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Mar 15 13:40:05 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:40:05 -0500 Subject: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: My Bavarian father-in-law said "hoopla" when about to spill something--which is similar to the Norwegian "Uf da!" made popular by Minn Public Radio's catalog. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 15 14:08:03 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:08:03 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Damien Hall > In the MIT slang list was: > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the > "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in > general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has > reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests > (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something > challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has > always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. The first two of these have been mentioned in the discussion so far, but AFAICT not in the same post, so here's my intuition: The noun (particularly with the definite article, as 'the bomb') is something that is excellent. The verb is to do badly. The adjective (generally in a construction such as 'It was so bomb') means something was excellent, though i don't use it actively and whether it really means excellent (and the degree of excellence) can be more strongly affected by context than the other two. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 14:13:26 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:13:26 -0800 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Change can mean several things, including replace, but also alter, revise, modify etc. I understand "change-out" to mean take an old, worn item and replace it with a new but otherwise basically identical item, i.e., change out an alternator, 126 first selector switches, a three-way electric light switch, a power pole; no alteration of the receiving environment is needed ...pull the old one out, put the new one in, and voila. This may or may not fit with the use in the home makeover: "makeover" implies, to me, modification, upgrading to something better and upgrading everything in the immediate surroundings while at it. In the Odessa American article, the "126 first selector switches" were changed out but the "inter-toll and toll transmission switches" required modification. --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > On-line newspaper search shows this "change out" > from way back. I don't > recall it even from the 1970's myself. Random > examples: > > ---------- > > _Odessa [TX] American_, 16 Feb. 1958: p. 5: > > [Improvements in telephone equipment] > > < required a change-out > of 126 first selector switches and the modification > of all inter-toll and > toll transmission switches.>> > > ---------- > > _Valley Morning Star_ [Harlingen TX], 21 Nov. 1948: > "Fair Section", p. 6: > > < this 69,000 volt circuit > during the change-out of a broken pole by this CP&L > Valley crew.>> > > ---------- > > _Coshocton [OH] Tribune_, 24 Aug. 1967: p. 3(?): > > < three-way electric light > switch that very afternoon.>> > > ---------- > > At a glance, it seems like the noun "change-out" may > predate the verb > "change out". > > -- Doug Wilson > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 15 14:40:45 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:40:45 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on oops-a-daisy at http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as "oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:05:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:05:13 -0500 Subject: competing deodorants In-Reply-To: <1e1.381364e7.2f67d15f@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:49 AM -0500 3/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, >... >... Wonder what the relative timeline is between that one and another familiar over-the-counter product. On Mike & Mike, ESPN radio's morning show, one of the hosts, Mike Greenberg, just cited Faye Vincent (former commissioner of baseball) for the adage "Sunlight is the best disinfectant". This was quoted in the context of the upcoming Congressional investigation of steroid use in major league baseball, but I'm sure the line has been around for decades in political contexts. (It's not specifically sports-related the way the deodorant-of-victory one is, and I expect it's a lot older.) Interesting division of labor between deodorants and disinfectants: (google hits) WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT 92 WINNING IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT 0 SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT 4,540 SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DEODORANT 0 larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:07:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:07:06 -0500 Subject: "Winning is the best deodorant" (1996) In-Reply-To: <1e1.381364e7.2f67d15f@aol.com> Message-ID: Oops, sorry; on first reading, I missed the fact that Barry alluded to the "winning" vs. "sunlight" connection as well. Larry At 12:49 AM -0500 3/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, >... >... >It's similar in sound to "sunchine/sunlight is the best disinfectant," that >I'd discussed before. >... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:26:45 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B8F@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:42:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:42:54 -0800 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I recall, some '50s comic books used "uh-oh!" while others preferred "oh-oh!" The good news: OED has "oh-oh!" The bad: From 1944 only. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 15 15:44:51 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:44:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: I previously wrote (11/30/2004): I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, 1971 for uh-oh. Why so late? These seem like the kind of terms that one would expect to have been in the language for centuries. Of course, their apparent lateness may be an artifact of a lack of standardized spellings and a tendency not to regard them as words, but I think the latter goes only so far, since there has always been a need to reflect such terms in colloquial dialogue. I can antedate uh-uh and uh-oh. For uh-uh, here's an August 1901 cite from The Atlantic Monthly, available on Making of America (Cornell), referring to a patient who is holding on to a woman's hand: "'Why, Henderson, I'm dashed if I can untangle him.' Carey stooped again. 'Just alive enough to swing to her. Uh-uh!'" A slightly earlier (1901, but referring to earlier events) cite is from Studybaker v. Cofield, 159 Mo. 596, 61 S.W. 246, 249 (Feb. 12, 1901), but the meaning is questionable at best: "Witness was of the opinion that on the day the deed was executed and the day before Boyer could not understand what he was doing. Witness would ask him if he wanted his medicine, and he would answer, 'Uh, uh.' 'Q. You think he was unable to make himself understood at all? A. That is, according to my-- Q. And was unable to understand what people said to him? A. That is the way I took it.'" For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: "The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d 660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:49:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:49:34 -0800 Subject: twat Message-ID: Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second ex. to be ambiguous at best. Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this likely to be an error? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:50:45 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:50:45 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: <20050315154934.16360.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the > second ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is > this likely to be an error? Robert Browning was a renowned expert on this word. Perhaps his writings will yield some insight. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:58:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:58:43 -0800 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually means "uh-oh!" Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I previously wrote (11/30/2004): I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, 1971 for uh-oh. Why so late? These seem like the kind of terms that one would expect to have been in the language for centuries. Of course, their apparent lateness may be an artifact of a lack of standardized spellings and a tendency not to regard them as words, but I think the latter goes only so far, since there has always been a need to reflect such terms in colloquial dialogue. I can antedate uh-uh and uh-oh. For uh-uh, here's an August 1901 cite from The Atlantic Monthly, available on Making of America (Cornell), referring to a patient who is holding on to a woman's hand: "'Why, Henderson, I'm dashed if I can untangle him.' Carey stooped again. 'Just alive enough to swing to her. Uh-uh!'" A slightly earlier (1901, but referring to earlier events) cite is from Studybaker v. Cofield, 159 Mo. 596, 61 S.W. 246, 249 (Feb. 12, 1901), but the meaning is questionable at best: "Witness was of the opinion that on the day the deed was executed and the day before Boyer could not understand what he was doing. Witness would ask him if he wanted his medicine, and he would answer, 'Uh, uh.' 'Q. You think he was unable to make himself understood at all? A. That is, according to my-- Q. And was unable to understand what people said to him? A. That is the way I took it.'" For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: "The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d 660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:09:33 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:09:33 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <20050315155843.22209.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, but I won't go there. dInIs >Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >means "uh-oh!" > >Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > >Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? > >Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > >JL > -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Mar 15 16:19:41 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:19:41 +0000 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: <200503151549.j2FFnatw003106@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second > ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this > likely to be an error? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. --Neil Crawford From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 16:31:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:31:15 -0800 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Well, I hope OED hasn't compounded his error - which was of a rather different kind. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: twat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the > second ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is > this likely to be an error? Robert Browning was a renowned expert on this word. Perhaps his writings will yield some insight. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 16:33:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:33:21 -0800 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Not quite what OED has in mind. The 1950 ex. specifically says "buttocks." JL neil wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: neil Subject: Re: twat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second > ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this > likely to be an error? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. --Neil Crawford --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:38:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:38:15 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:19 PM +0000 3/15/05, neil wrote: >on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." >> There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I >>find the second >> ex. to be ambiguous at best. >> >> Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this >> likely to be an error? >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > >A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) >where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. > >--Neil Crawford And when you put that together with the front vs. back regional variation on "cock", you can see where one might run into difficulties... L L From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:33:16 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:33:16 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We said both "hunh-uh" and "unh-uh" in Minnesota too--more or less interchangeably, though I think (from age-old memory) I said the former more often. Jonathan's "unh-unh" would work for me too. "Uh-uh" wouldn't be a negative at all for me. At 11:09 AM 3/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around >Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any >subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. >If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with >every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I >might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, >but I won't go there. > >dInIs > >>Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >>means "uh-oh!" >> >>Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >>people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >>I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >>Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? >> >>Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >>JL > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:13:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:13:23 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315112858.01e6fe70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:33 AM -0500 3/15/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >We said both "hunh-uh" and "unh-uh" in Minnesota too--more or less >interchangeably, though I think (from age-old memory) I said the former >more often. Jonathan's "unh-unh" would work for me too. "Uh-uh" wouldn't >be a negative at all for me. One problem here, I think, is in the inadequacy of the transcription system; our orthography is not really geared up for representing lexical tone/stress, nasal vowels, and glottal stops, all of which are involved in distinguishing the affirmative "uh-HUH" from the negative "UHN-unh" (transcriptions somewhat arbitrary, as noted). L > >At 11:09 AM 3/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around >>Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any >>subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. >>If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with >>every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I >>might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, >>but I won't go there. >> >>dInIs >> >>>Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >>>means "uh-oh!" >>> >>>Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >>>people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >>>I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >>> >>>Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? >>> >>>Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >>> >>>JL >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:21:23 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:21:23 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) Message-ID: This may well just be coincidental, but (also anecdotally) I have noticed another, well, change going on with *change*, in some people's BrEng at least: *change* > *change up* as in 'I haven't got any Euros at the moment, but I suppose I'll change some money up on the boat' (said just before a trip from England to France on the ferry. Intonation made it clear that this was a phrasal verb *change up* + PP *on the boat*, not simplex *change* + PP *on the boat*; it's actually difficult to find examples that are disambiguated by not being followed by a PP, since it seems that *change up* is for money only, and you have to do that somewhere.) It's a subject of indignation in a way similar to Jim's, at least for my sister, whose boyfriend it is who says this, causing her to rant that there's no reason for the *up* and it should just be *change*. But my casual impression is that I've heard it from others too. I suspect that there are contexts in which *change up* is already part of the 'standard' lexicon (apart from gears, which can be but aren't always changed up), but I can't come up with any. So this just adds to Jim's question. I am hearing *change up* where I would expect *change*. Is there something about *change* that invites its specification by a preposition in general, in the way that Doug indicated for *change out* in particular? That seemed to me a good explanation for *change out* and it would be nice if it could be generalised. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:44:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:44:03 -0500 Subject: Liverpudlian Scouse In-Reply-To: <20050315092947.D534CEDFE3@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: (CC to American Dialect Society mailing list) On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, H J Wilk wrote to ANS-L, the mailing list of the American Name Society: #Interesting article: # #http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/15/international/europe/15liverpool.html?hp # #Howard J. Wilk #Viz Thanks for the pointer. I took especial note of the following sentence: Tracking accents and deconstructing how they change over time, particularly from one region to another, have proved tricky for linguists, because there are so many accents in Britain. "Deconstructing"? (Not to mention the failure of number agreement.) -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 19:42:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: inner city Message-ID: OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking usage near the end of ch. 2: "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to Germans." The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the following: 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 15 22:45:30 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:45:30 -0800 Subject: inner city In-Reply-To: <20050315194203.15743.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I guess I don't quite get the point here. Manheim is simply translating the German "Innenstadt," which is the oldest part of Vienna--the district lying within the Ringstrasse, which replaced the former city wall after the latter was torn down. It is roughly at the center of the city--i.e., its innermost district--and thus its designation. Obviously Samarkand had (or has) something similar to pre-Ringstrasse Vienna. Anyway, the Inner City of Vienna does indeed contain most of the buildings that formerly housed the institutions of "Imperial and Royal" power: St. Stephen's Cathedral, the Hofburg (the imperial palace), other palaces and the imperial government buildings. Even today, the district's former status as a seat of imperial power is unmistakable. The Opera and the Burgtheater happen to be on the Inner City side of the Ringstrasse, but the two big museums, the Parliament, the Vienna city hall and the University of Vienna are on the other side--but all these were built after the wall was gone. Besides the imperial government buildings and such, though, the Inner City also contains lots of narrow, winding streets lined with old houses, shops, restaurants, churches, etc. The population of this area is unremarkable now (or was last time I was there), and I don't know anything about its pre-WW2 population, but I gather from the Mein Kampf passage that it must have been heavily Jewish before the war. In any case, I don't see what any of this has to do with the connotations of the expression "inner city" as applied to late-20th century America. Peter --On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:42 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. > regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." > Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. > > Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking > usage near the end of ch. 2: > > "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal > swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to > Germans." > > The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that > > "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most > European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of > the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of > the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." > > The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the > following: > > 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ > (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an > Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were > defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure > [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. > > Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 00:23:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:23:46 -0800 Subject: inner city In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: It has nothing whatever to do with the current connotations.That is exactly the point. OED does not indicate that "Inner City" existed in English as a lexicalized or semi-lexicalized entity before 1968. (I feel fairly confident that a 1967 or even '66 will yet turn up, BTW; there were terrible "inner city" riots in 1967 in the U.S.) The existence of these earlier specific uses of "inner city" - since 1722 - are relevant to the history of the phrase. (I found nothing earlier in EEBO.) Since American "inner cities" are just as much "inner" as Old World "Inner Cities," the consistent approach is to annotate both senses. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: inner city ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I don't quite get the point here. Manheim is simply translating the German "Innenstadt," which is the oldest part of Vienna--the district lying within the Ringstrasse, which replaced the former city wall after the latter was torn down. It is roughly at the center of the city--i.e., its innermost district--and thus its designation. Obviously Samarkand had (or has) something similar to pre-Ringstrasse Vienna. Anyway, the Inner City of Vienna does indeed contain most of the buildings that formerly housed the institutions of "Imperial and Royal" power: St. Stephen's Cathedral, the Hofburg (the imperial palace), other palaces and the imperial government buildings. Even today, the district's former status as a seat of imperial power is unmistakable. The Opera and the Burgtheater happen to be on the Inner City side of the Ringstrasse, but the two big museums, the Parliament, the Vienna city hall and the University of Vienna are on the other side--but all these were built after the wall was gone. Besides the imperial government buildings and such, though, the Inner City also contains lots of narrow, winding streets lined with old houses, shops, restaurants, churches, etc. The population of this area is unremarkable now (or was last time I was there), and I don't know anything about its pre-WW2 population, but I gather from the Mein Kampf passage that it must have been heavily Jewish before the war. In any case, I don't see what any of this has to do with the connotations of the expression "inner city" as applied to late-20th century America. Peter --On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:42 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. > regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." > Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. > > Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking > usage near the end of ch. 2: > > "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal > swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to > Germans." > > The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that > > "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most > European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of > the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of > the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." > > The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the > following: > > 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ > (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an > Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were > defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure > [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. > > Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 02:19:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:19:57 EST Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) Message-ID: FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock New York: Published by the American Folk-Lore Society G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents 1925 ... A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in advance for my typing. ... ... Pg. 70: When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: Star bright, star bright, First star I've seen tonight, I wish you may, I wish you might, Give me the wish, I wish tonight. ... Pg. 73: A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, He loves me, he loves me not. ... Pg. 107: Monday's child is fair in face,... ... Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, Sneeze on Thursday, something better, Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. ... Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; Cut on Friday, cut for woe; Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. ... "Friday's hair and Sunday's horn You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." ... Monday, health, Tuesday, wealth, Wednesday, the best day of all; Thursday, crosses, Friday, losses, Saturday, no day at all. ... Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. Ah, I hav 'em hot, Ah, I have 'em brown, Ah, I have 'em long, Ah, I have 'em roun', Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', Daibble! ... Pg. 133: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, One flew east and one flew west And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, Some go up and some go down, And some go all around the town. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, All good children go to heaven, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, All bad children are too late. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 All good children go to heaven, All the rest fo below, To keep company with Jumbo, or To keep company with Guiteau. ... Pg. 138: What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. What's your number? 22 Cumber. ... Pg. 139: Nigger in the woodshed, Don't you hear him holler? Take him up to my house And give him half a dollar. ... As I went up the apple tree, All the apples fell on me. Bake a pudding, Bake a pie, You're the one who told the lie. ... Knife and fork, Bottle and cork, That's the way To spell New York. ... A rough shirt And a standing collar Will choke a nigger Till he holler. ... Pg. 140: Hayfoot, strawfoot, Specklefoot, crawfoot, Some flew east, some flew west, Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... Aka baka, soda cracker, Aka baka boo, My grandfather has an old horshoe How many nails did he put in it? (Select a number & count that many.) ... Draw a bucket of water, For my lady's daughter, A gay gold ring and a silver pin, And pray my lady go under. (Miss Jennie go under.) ... Pg. 142: _Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ ... Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ Come put your right hand in, Come put your right hand out, Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, And turn your body about. ... Pg. 151: Once upon a time, When the fogs ate lime, The turkeys chawed tobacco, And the geese drank wine. ... Once upon a time, A fog made a rhyme, Goose chewed Tobacco, And the cat drank wine. ... Once I was a wish bone, Grew within a hen, Now I am a little slave, That is made to wipe your pen. ... Hot corn! Baked pears! Knock a nigger down stairs. ... Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please drop a penny, In the little boy's hat. (Or the Newsboy's hat.) ... Pg. 155: All the cats consulted, What was it about? How to catch a little mouse Running in and out. ... Rain, rain, go away And come again another day, For little Johnny Wants to play. ... Rain come wet me, Sun come dry me, Go 'way Patsy, Don't come nigh me. ... Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake Stole-a half a-dollar cake. ... "Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children alone." Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock New York: Published by the American Folk-Lore Society G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents 1925 ... A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in advance for my typing. ... ... Pg. 70: When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: Star bright, star bright, First star I've seen tonight, I wish you may, I wish you might, Give me the wish, I wish tonight. ... Pg. 73: A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, He loves me, he loves me not. ... Pg. 107: Monday's child is fair in face,... ... Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, Sneeze on Thursday, something better, Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. ... Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; Cut on Friday, cut for woe; Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. ... "Friday's hair and Sunday's horn You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." ... Monday, health, Tuesday, wealth, Wednesday, the best day of all; Thursday, crosses, Friday, losses, Saturday, no day at all. ... Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. Ah, I hav 'em hot, Ah, I have 'em brown, Ah, I have 'em long, Ah, I have 'em roun', Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', Daibble! ... Pg. 133: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, One flew east and one flew west And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, Some go up and some go down, And some go all around the town. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, All good children go to heaven, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, All bad children are too late. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 All good children go to heaven, All the rest fo below, To keep company with Jumbo, or To keep company with Guiteau. ... Pg. 138: What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. What's your number? 22 Cumber. ... Pg. 139: Nigger in the woodshed, Don't you hear him holler? Take him up to my house And give him half a dollar. ... As I went up the apple tree, All the apples fell on me. Bake a pudding, Bake a pie, You're the one who told the lie. ... Knife and fork, Bottle and cork, That's the way To spell New York. ... A rough shirt And a standing collar Will choke a nigger Till he holler. ... Pg. 140: Hayfoot, strawfoot, Specklefoot, crawfoot, Some flew east, some flew west, Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... Aka baka, soda cracker, Aka baka boo, My grandfather has an old horshoe How many nails did he put in it? (Select a number & count that many.) ... Draw a bucket of water, For my lady's daughter, A gay gold ring and a silver pin, And pray my lady go under. (Miss Jennie go under.) ... Pg. 142: _Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ ... Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ Come put your right hand in, Come put your right hand out, Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, And turn your body about. ... Pg. 151: Once upon a time, When the fogs ate lime, The turkeys chawed tobacco, And the geese drank wine. ... Once upon a time, A fog made a rhyme, Goose chewed Tobacco, And the cat drank wine. ... Once I was a wish bone, Grew within a hen, Now I am a little slave, That is made to wipe your pen. ... Hot corn! Baked pears! Knock a nigger down stairs. ... Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please drop a penny, In the little boy's hat. (Or the Newsboy's hat.) ... Pg. 155: All the cats consulted, What was it about? How to catch a little mouse Running in and out. ... Rain, rain, go away And come again another day, For little Johnny Wants to play. ... Rain come wet me, Sun come dry me, Go 'way Patsy, Don't come nigh me. ... Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake Stole-a half a-dollar cake. ... Take all you gimme. ... A fool for luck, A poor man for children, Eastern shore for hard crabs, And niggers for dogs. ... Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, Lost his wife and couldn't find her. ... Pg. 156: I had a piece of pork, I put it on a fork, And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. ... Tattle tale tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the girls in our town Shall have a little bit. ... Cry baby cry, Put your finger in your eye And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. ... Pg. 157: Catch a grasshopper, and say, "Spit, spit, tobacco juice, If you don't do it, I'll kill you". If he does not spit, he is killed. ... If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: "Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children will burn." Then it will fly away home. ... Pg. 158: My love for you will never fail, So long as pussy has her tail. ... So long as grass grows round this stump, You are my darling sugar lump. ... (Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) "Leave something for Miss Manners." ... I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, I hope the cat will scratch your face. ... Whistling girls and crowing hens Always come to some bad ends. ... A whistling man and a crowing hen Are not fit for gods or men. ... Girls that whistle and hens that crow, Gather life's pleasure as they go. ... Pg. 159: Needles and pins, needles and pins, When a man marries his trouble begins. ... Tit for tat; If you kill my dog, I;ll kill your cat. ... Multiplication is vexation. Division is bad, The rule of Three doth puzzle me, And Practice drives me mad. ... Whilst we live, we live in clover, When we die, we die all over. ... I had a little fod, his name was Rover, And when he died, he died all over. ... After breakfast, work awhile; After dinner, sit awhile; After supper, walk a mile. ... Pg. 173: Sisters and brothers have I none, But that man's father is my father's son, What relation is that man to me? (My Son.) ... Pg. 174: A house full, a hole full, You can't get a bowl full. (Smoke.) ... Up and down, Never touches sky nor ground. (Pump Handle.) ... Pg.175: Long legs, crooked thighs, Little head and no eyes. (Pair of tongs.) ... Round as a biscuit, As busy as a bee, The prettiest little thing, You ever did see. (A watch.) ... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 02:39:59 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:39:59 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Damn! A brother just can't catch a break nowhere. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >New York: >Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >1925 >... >A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >advance for my typing. >... >... >Pg. 70: >When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >Star bright, star bright, >First star I've seen tonight, >I wish you may, I wish you might, >Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >... >Pg. 73: >A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >He loves me, he loves me not. >... >Pg. 107: >Monday's child is fair in face,... >... >Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >... >Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >... >"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >... >Monday, health, >Tuesday, wealth, >Wednesday, the best day of all; >Thursday, crosses, >Friday, losses, >Saturday, no day at all. >... >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >Ah, I have 'em brown, >Ah, I have 'em long, >Ah, I have 'em roun', >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >Daibble! >... >Pg. 133: >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >One flew east and one flew west >And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >Some go up and some go down, >And some go all around the town. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >All good children go to heaven, >1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >All bad children are too late. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >All good children go to heaven, >All the rest fo below, >To keep company with Jumbo, >or >To keep company with Guiteau. >... >Pg. 138: >What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >... >Pg. 139: >Nigger in the woodshed, >Don't you hear him holler? >Take him up to my house >And give him half a dollar. >... >As I went up the apple tree, >All the apples fell on me. >Bake a pudding, >Bake a pie, >You're the one who told the lie. >... >Knife and fork, >Bottle and cork, >That's the way >To spell New York. >... >A rough shirt >And a standing collar >Will choke a nigger >Till he holler. >... >Pg. 140: >Hayfoot, strawfoot, >Specklefoot, crawfoot, >Some flew east, some flew west, >Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >... >Aka baka, soda cracker, >Aka baka boo, >My grandfather has an old horshoe >How many nails did he put in it? >(Select a number & count that many.) >... >Draw a bucket of water, >For my lady's daughter, >A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >And pray my lady go under. >(Miss Jennie go under.) >... >Pg. 142: >_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >... >Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >Come put your right hand in, >Come put your right hand out, >Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >And turn your body about. >... >Pg. 151: >Once upon a time, >When the fogs ate lime, >The turkeys chawed tobacco, >And the geese drank wine. >... >Once upon a time, >A fog made a rhyme, >Goose chewed Tobacco, >And the cat drank wine. >... >Once I was a wish bone, >Grew within a hen, >Now I am a little slave, >That is made to wipe your pen. >... >Hot corn! Baked pears! >Knock a nigger down stairs. >... >Christmas is coming, >Turkeys are fat, >Please drop a penny, >In the little boy's hat. >(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >... >Pg. 155: >All the cats consulted, >What was it about? >How to catch a little mouse >Running in and out. >... >Rain, rain, go away >And come again another day, >For little Johnny >Wants to play. >... >Rain come wet me, >Sun come dry me, >Go 'way Patsy, >Don't come nigh me. >... >Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >... >Take all you gimme. >... >A fool for luck, >A poor man for children, >Eastern shore for hard crabs, >And niggers for dogs. >... >Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >... >Pg. 156: >I had a piece of pork, >I put it on a fork, >And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >... >Tattle tale tit, >Your tongue shall be split, >And all the girls in our town >Shall have a little bit. >... >Cry baby cry, >Put your finger in your eye >And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >... >Pg. 157: >Catch a grasshopper, and say, >"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >If he does not spit, he is killed. >... >If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >Then it will fly away home. >... >Pg. 158: >My love for you will never fail, >So long as pussy has her tail. >... >So long as grass grows round this stump, >You are my darling sugar lump. >... >(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >"Leave something for Miss Manners." >... >I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >I hope the cat will scratch your face. >... >Whistling girls and crowing hens >Always come to some bad ends. >... >A whistling man and a crowing hen >Are not fit for gods or men. >... >Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >Gather life's pleasure as they go. >... >Pg. 159: >Needles and pins, needles and pins, >When a man marries his trouble begins. >... >Tit for tat; >If you kill my dog, >I;ll kill your cat. >... >Multiplication is vexation. >Division is bad, >The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >And Practice drives me mad. >... >Whilst we live, we live in clover, >When we die, we die all over. >... >I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >And when he died, he died all over. >... >After breakfast, work awhile; >After dinner, sit awhile; >After supper, walk a mile. >... >Pg. 173: >Sisters and brothers have I none, >But that man's father is my father's son, >What relation is that man to me? >(My Son.) >... >Pg. 174: >A house full, a hole full, >You can't get a bowl full. >(Smoke.) >... >Up and down, >Never touches sky nor ground. >(Pump Handle.) >... >Pg.175: >Long legs, crooked thighs, >Little head and no eyes. >(Pair of tongs.) >... >Round as a biscuit, >As busy as a bee, >The prettiest little thing, >You ever did see. >(A watch.) >... From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 16 02:53:56 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:53:56 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather than back. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > At 4:19 PM +0000 3/15/05, neil wrote: >> on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: twat >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> --> - >>> >>> Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." >>> There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I >>> find the second >>> ex. to be ambiguous at best. >>> >>> Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is >>> this >>> likely to be an error? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) >> where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. >> >> --Neil Crawford > > And when you put that together with the front vs. back regional > variation on "cock", you can see where one might run into > difficulties... > > L > > L > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 16 05:14:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:14:43 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What about "gobble-de-gook"? At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody 'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 05:45:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:45:28 EST Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo Message-ID: In a message dated 3/16/2005 12:22:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: >What about "gobble-de-gook"? At a glance this dates only from 1943. Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? In any case, it's not much older than that. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Nevada State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pcnxPkXaZiZVSFpxsAwP0vO+OQIQYuJoQ==) Sunday, September 26, 1943 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+gobbledegook+AND) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+gobbledegook+AND) ...at the sound of his footfall a great GOBBLEDEGOOK would go up and the air.. ... ... (The page clearly shows 1948!) From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 16 05:55:19 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:55:19 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <6d.4132ccc7.2f6921f8@aol.com> Message-ID: >Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? >In any case, it's not much older than that. Right, on closer glance, March 1944, spelled "gobbledygook" usually. The 1943 date was in error. I suppose modeled on "hobbledehoy" maybe. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 08:14:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:14:51 EST Subject: "Go with the flow" (1971); "Hit the ball and run like hell" (1965) Message-ID: GO WITH THE FLOW ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 28 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=144581812&SrchMode=1&sid=44&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111095 6393&clientId=65882) The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1971. p. A15 (1 page) : _go with the flow...do the current thing!_ (Hecht Co. ad--ed.) ... ... The ProQuest digitization of the Los Angeles Times was added to! ,,, 1969, baby! Actually, just September and October 1969! Maybe not even that much! ... No "slam dunk." No "point guard." No "granola." ... Not even a "go with the flow." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "JUST HIT THE BALL AND RUN LIKE HELL" ... Paul Dickson's BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS has a 1988 USA Today citation by Paul Hemphill, giving credit to a Class D manager. ... ... (PROUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Sports of The Times; Sandy the Magnificent _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=95911511&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1110960475&clientId=65882) By ARTHUR DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 12, 1965. p. 61 (1 page) : "It's great to be back on the beam again," said Maury Wills, the Dodger captain. "We were dreadful during those two games in Minnesota. Maybe we were overconfident, but I do know we were unsettled by the short fences and never did get to play our game--hit the ball and run like hell." ... _Architect of Victory; Richard Robert Luigi Aurelio _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=79434071&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110960064&clientId=65882) By LAWRENCE VAN GELDER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1969. p. 36 (1 page) : In his spare time, Mr. Aurelio enjoys fishing and a game of baseball, when the opportunity presents itself. "He likes to hit the ball," said Mrs. Aurelio, "and run like hell." ... _Just Hit the Ball and Run Like Hell_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=111727502&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110959465&clientId=65882) By GILBERT MILLSTEIN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1979. p. BR3 (1 page) : _LONG GONE_ By Paul Hemphill. (...) If I tell you that "Long Gone" is about Class D baseball in Florida in the 1950's, I have told you nothing at all. (...) "Baseball's a simple game. All you got to do is hit the ball and run like hell." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrXsRAmPjaeem4SF6cHMliVUIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, September 15, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+hit+the+ball+and+run+like+hell) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+hit+the+ball+and+run+like+hell) ...on Page 3D trying to HIT THE BALL AND RUN LIKE HELL. A thrill? Every day is a.....taking THE BALL on a 60-yard scoring RUN on which be leaped over one player.. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 16 08:21:29 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:21:29 +0800 Subject: four and twenty Message-ID: I'm curious. When did English speakers quit saying things like four and twenty in normal conversation? Did they ever? The reason I'm asking is that this morning I blogged the following: The French say soixante-dix-neuf (sixty-ten-nine) when they want to express the number 79. Germans say neunundsechzig (nine-and-sixty). In an interview with Der Spiegel, a German mathematician proposes that the way numbers are spoken in German be changed to make mental arithmetic easier. He wants Germans to say zwanzigeins (twenty-one) instead of einundzwanzig (one-and-twenty). Come to think of it, backward numbers used to be common in English too. Children still sing the old nursery rhyme: Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye, Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. When the pie was opened the birds began to sing, Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king? Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Mar 16 10:12:57 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:12:57 +0000 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <200503160253.j2G2rwJY024232@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the > buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male > oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down > the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known > to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather > than back. > > JCS > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University oogle - new one on me, but I like it. --Neil Crawford From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Mar 16 11:52:30 2005 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:52:30 -0500 Subject: "take a looksy"? In-Reply-To: <200501112043.j0BKhk2A002470@ayrton.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: This is new to me. I read "take a looksy" in a caption to an online photo. Google gives c. 3,600 of these and c. 21,500 of "take a look see." I was familiar only with the latter--older?--one. Stephen Goranson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 13:37:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:37:30 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Sylvia Plath seems to have preferred "gobbledygoo," as in her well-known poem "Daddy." This form is quite current in non-S.E. circles along with "gobbledygoop." All vars. also exist with "gobbly..." (Without the Net, we might not know this.) William and Mary Morris long ago reported a letter from a WWI vet who claimed to have heard "gobbledygook" from a fellow soldier in 1918. Maury Maverick did not quite claim to have coined the word. He said he wasn't sure. Evidently he'd known it for a long time. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? >In any case, it's not much older than that. Right, on closer glance, March 1944, spelled "gobbledygook" usually. The 1943 date was in error. I suppose modeled on "hobbledehoy" maybe. -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 14:33:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:33:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >> than back. >> >> JCS >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English > > Michigan State University > >oogle - new one on me, but I like it. > >--Neil Crawford How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any spoken register of BE. -Wilson Gray From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Mar 16 14:39:00 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:39:00 +0000 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <200503161433.j2GEXWC5018997@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: twat+oogle > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: neil >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: James C Stalker >>> Subject: Re: twat >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --> - >>> >>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>> than back. >>> >>> JCS >>> >>> James C. Stalker >>> Department of English >>> Michigan State University >> >> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >> >> --Neil Crawford > > How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it > pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way > that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once > had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any > spoken register of BE. > > -Wilson Gray 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. --Neil Crawford From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 15:09:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:09:40 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Ohgle" is the way I've always heard it and said it. I first heard "oogle" in 1976 from a graduate student from Brooklyn. He was about forty and said that was the only pronunciation he was aware of. He didn't realize that {ogle} was even a word. Reminds me of the MD I met once who didn't know that slanty letters for emphasis were called "italics." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >> than back. >> >> JCS >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English > > Michigan State University > >oogle - new one on me, but I like it. > >--Neil Crawford How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any spoken register of BE. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 15:10:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:10:40 -0500 Subject: "Go with the flow" (1971); "Hit the ball and run like hell" (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether we can celebrate the birth of a new sports cliché, N. Y. Jets' coach Herman Edwards' carefully enunciated "You play. To win. The game." This was uttered last year, with the exaggerated intonation contour represented above, during the course of a post-game press conference, and since then it's been repeated (with approximations of the same intonation contour) either verbatim or with variations on the same theme (but retaining the contour). Since then, Herm Edwards has evidently written one of those "leadership secrets" books using the line (without my internal punctuation) as its title. Perhaps 30 years from now they'll be trying to track down the origin of the cliché. (None of this should be taken to guarantee that Edwards invented the line or its delivery; for all I know his high school football coach, or third-grade marbles instructor, used to say that to young Herm.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 15:19:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:19:12 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:39 PM +0000 3/16/05, neil wrote: >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > > > How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any > > spoken register of BE. > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford I've always said "ohgle" for "ogle" too, and was not previously aware of "oogle". Perhaps future generations will assume that "oogling" is a special kind of googling performed when you're checking someone out and don't have a computer on you. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 16 16:39:12 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:39:12 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: Larry Horn: > >Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking >of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", >the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the >AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is >pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for >example, there are 749,000 google hits. John Baker: > >I previously wrote (11/30/2004): > >I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for >these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, >1971 for uh-oh. [...] >For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: >"The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in >that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent >of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she >then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d >660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). And in that same thread I wrote: ----- Hard to search for "uh-oh" on newspaperarchive or other databases, since poor scanning results in lots of false matches. But I did find a 1930 cite: Van Wert (Ohio) Times Bulletin, August 19, 1930 The Featherheads [comic strip] Uh-oh! This is the title to a strip featuring Mr. Featherhead and his boss: Boss: Mr. Featherhead - have you got all the figures in on that Riggs deal? You want to get along that job, you know... Boss: If we get the contract, my boy... it will be a feather in your cap! A fine thing for you... yes sir! [Mr. Featherhead beams.] Boss: And if we don't get it... you'll probably be fired! Mr. Featherhead: ! I suspect earlier cites can be found in comic strips of the '20s. ----- http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0411E&L=ads-l&P=R2914 --Ben Zimmer From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 16:53:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:53:52 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: <20050316024001.55680.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are gone"). Gruesome by inference. At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children alone." > >Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. > >My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. > >JL > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >New York: >Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >1925 >.... >A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >advance for my typing. >.... >.... >Pg. 70: >When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >Star bright, star bright, >First star I've seen tonight, >I wish you may, I wish you might, >Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >.... >Pg. 73: >A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >He loves me, he loves me not. >.... >Pg. 107: >Monday's child is fair in face,... >.... >Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >.... >Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >.... >"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >.... >Monday, health, >Tuesday, wealth, >Wednesday, the best day of all; >Thursday, crosses, >Friday, losses, >Saturday, no day at all. >.... >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >Ah, I have 'em brown, >Ah, I have 'em long, >Ah, I have 'em roun', >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >Daibble! >.... >Pg. 133: >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >One flew east and one flew west >And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >Some go up and some go down, >And some go all around the town. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >All good children go to heaven, >1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >All bad children are too late. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >All good children go to heaven, >All the rest fo below, >To keep company with Jumbo, >or >To keep company with Guiteau. >.... >Pg. 138: >What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >.... >Pg. 139: >Nigger in the woodshed, >Don't you hear him holler? >Take him up to my house >And give him half a dollar. >.... >As I went up the apple tree, >All the apples fell on me. >Bake a pudding, >Bake a pie, >You're the one who told the lie. >.... >Knife and fork, >Bottle and cork, >That's the way >To spell New York. >.... >A rough shirt >And a standing collar >Will choke a nigger >Till he holler. >.... >Pg. 140: >Hayfoot, strawfoot, >Specklefoot, crawfoot, >Some flew east, some flew west, >Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >.... >Aka baka, soda cracker, >Aka baka boo, >My grandfather has an old horshoe >How many nails did he put in it? >(Select a number & count that many.) >.... >Draw a bucket of water, >For my lady's daughter, >A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >And pray my lady go under. >(Miss Jennie go under.) >.... >Pg. 142: >_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >.... >Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >Come put your right hand in, >Come put your right hand out, >Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >And turn your body about. >.... >Pg. 151: >Once upon a time, >When the fogs ate lime, >The turkeys chawed tobacco, >And the geese drank wine. >.... >Once upon a time, >A fog made a rhyme, >Goose chewed Tobacco, >And the cat drank wine. >.... >Once I was a wish bone, >Grew within a hen, >Now I am a little slave, >That is made to wipe your pen. >.... >Hot corn! Baked pears! >Knock a nigger down stairs. >.... >Christmas is coming, >Turkeys are fat, >Please drop a penny, >In the little boy's hat. >(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >.... >Pg. 155: >All the cats consulted, >What was it about? >How to catch a little mouse >Running in and out. >.... >Rain, rain, go away >And come again another day, >For little Johnny >Wants to play. >.... >Rain come wet me, >Sun come dry me, >Go 'way Patsy, >Don't come nigh me. >.... >Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >.... >Take all you gimme. >.... >A fool for luck, >A poor man for children, >Eastern shore for hard crabs, >And niggers for dogs. >.... >Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >.... >Pg. 156: >I had a piece of pork, >I put it on a fork, >And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >.... >Tattle tale tit, >Your tongue shall be split, >And all the girls in our town >Shall have a little bit. >.... >Cry baby cry, >Put your finger in your eye >And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >.... >Pg. 157: >Catch a grasshopper, and say, >"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >If he does not spit, he is killed. >.... >If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >Then it will fly away home. >.... >Pg. 158: >My love for you will never fail, >So long as pussy has her tail. >.... >So long as grass grows round this stump, >You are my darling sugar lump. >.... >(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >"Leave something for Miss Manners." >.... >I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >I hope the cat will scratch your face. >.... >Whistling girls and crowing hens >Always come to some bad ends. >.... >A whistling man and a crowing hen >Are not fit for gods or men. >.... >Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >Gather life's pleasure as they go. >.... >Pg. 159: >Needles and pins, needles and pins, >When a man marries his trouble begins. >.... >Tit for tat; >If you kill my dog, >I;ll kill your cat. >.... >Multiplication is vexation. >Division is bad, >The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >And Practice drives me mad. >.... >Whilst we live, we live in clover, >When we die, we die all over. >.... >I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >And when he died, he died all over. >.... >After breakfast, work awhile; >After dinner, sit awhile; >After supper, walk a mile. >.... >Pg. 173: >Sisters and brothers have I none, >But that man's father is my father's son, >What relation is that man to me? >(My Son.) >.... >Pg. 174: >A house full, a hole full, >You can't get a bowl full. >(Smoke.) >.... >Up and down, >Never touches sky nor ground. >(Pump Handle.) >.... >Pg.175: >Long legs, crooked thighs, >Little head and no eyes. >(Pair of tongs.) >.... >Round as a biscuit, >As busy as a bee, >The prettiest little thing, >You ever did see. >(A watch.) >.... > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 17:09:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316115118.03151aa0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:53 AM -0500 3/16/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. it was "your children are gone" for us; I always liked to think that they made it out safely, but were now homeless, and Mrs. Ladybug would need to secure new quarters for the family larry >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. >>.... >>Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >>Ah, I hav 'em hot, >>Ah, I have 'em brown, >>Ah, I have 'em long, >>Ah, I have 'em roun', >>Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >>Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >>What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way >>To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. >>(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 19:51:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:51:34 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to be an American. In that case, all bets were off. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>What about "gobble-de-gook"? > >At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our >nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" >in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] > >Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all >restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody >'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. > >-- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 19:58:40 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:40 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his goo-goo-googly eyes"? -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: neil >>> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: James C Stalker >>>> Subject: Re: twat >>>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) >>>>about a male >>>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have >>>>been known >>>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>>> than back. >>>> >>>> JCS >>>> >>>> James C. Stalker >>>> Department of English >>>> Michigan State University >>> >>> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >>> >>> --Neil Crawford >> >> How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >> spoken register of BE. >> >> -Wilson Gray > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Mar 16 20:12:04 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:12:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <20050316195859.64644F2000@spf6-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: 'Google/goggle' in its pre-Internet form always struck me as related to the vernacular German gucken 'to peep [at]', which (I always assumed) was in some roundabout way the basis for the name of 'the gookie', a bug-eyed face that Harpo Marx would pull. Erik > Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his > goo-goo-googly eyes"? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 20:25:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. > >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. > >.... > >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. > >Ah, I hav 'em hot, > >Ah, I have 'em brown, > >Ah, I have 'em long, > >Ah, I have 'em roun', > >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', > >Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. > >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way > >To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. > >(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 20:45:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:45:10 EST Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet Message-ID: The local Metro newspaper has some Irish toasts from _www.stpatricksday.com_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com) . There are many sites of Irish toasts; it seems they all share/steal the same ones. There are no dates or attributions, of course. I'll look for a selected few, by request. ... Is Fred Shapiro considering any? ... ... _http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm_ (http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm) ... _http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html_ (http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html) ... _http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html_ (http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html) ... _http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm_ (http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm) ... _http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html) ... If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough! IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IRISH--419 Google hits ... May the wind at your back always be your own. MAY THE WIND AT YOUR BACK ALWAYS BE YOUR OWN--83 Google hits ... May you be in heaven 1/2 hour before the devil knows you're dead. HEAVEN + HOUR + DEVIL KNOWS + DEAD--9,790 Google hits ... As you slide down the banisters of life may the splinters never point the wrong way. BANISTERS OF LIFE + SPLINTERS--1,180 Google hits ... May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. TROUBLES + GRANDMOTHER'S TEETH--180 Google hits ... In Heaven there is no beer, that is why we drink it here. IN HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER--6,260 Google hits ... I drink to your health when I'm with you, I drink to your health when I'm alone I drink to your health so often, I'm starting to worry about my own. DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--785 Google hits ... I've drunk to your health in the pubs, I've drunk to your health in my home, I've drunk to your health so many times, That I've almost ruined my own. DRUNK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--41 Google hits ... Here's good luck to my wife's husband! GOOD LUCK TO MY WIFE'S HUSBAND--1 Google hit ... Here's to our wives and sweethearts!! May they never meet!! OUR WIVES AND SWEETHEARTS + NEVER MEET--322 Google hits ... May the roof above us never fall in, and may we friends gathered below never fall out. ROOF + FALL IN + NEVER FALL OUT--2,550 Google hits ... May your neighbors respect you, Troubles neglect you, The angels protect you, And Heaven accept you. RESPECT YOU + HEAVEN ACCEPT YOU--1,280 Google hits ... I have known many liked not a few loved only one so this toast's for you. LOVED ONLY ONE + THIS TOAST'S FOR YOU--6 Google hits ... Here's to you, here's to me, the best of friends we'll always be. But if we ever disagree, forget you here's to ME!! HERE'S TO YOU + HERE'S TO ME--522 Google hits ... Ireland - it's the one place on earth Heaven has kissed, with melody, mirth, meadow and mist. IRELAND + MELODY + MIRTH + MEADOW + MIST--541 Google hits ... may you have the hindsight to know where you've been the insight to know where you are and the foresight to know when you're going too far HINDSIGHT + WHERE YOU'VE BEEN + FORESIGHT + TOO FAR--668 Google hits ... my the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use GRASS GROW LONG + ROAD TO HELL--182 Google hits ... my the best day of your past be the worst day of your future BEST DAY OF YOUR PAST + WORST DAY OF YOUR FUTURE--817 Google hits ... May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. LIVE AS LONG AS YOU WANT + AS LONG AS YOU LIVE--672 Google hits ... May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. MAY YOUR HOME + TOO SMALL + FRIENDS--769 Google hits ... May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full moon on a dark night, and the road downhill all the way to your door. WARM WORD ON A COLD--2,180 Google hits From blonde_knight_of_books at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 16 20:55:18 2005 From: blonde_knight_of_books at HOTMAIL.COM (Johnni Wuest) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:55:18 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:05:18 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:05:18 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As if "Little Red Riding Hood" wasn't scary enough. At 03:25 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the >one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, >was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the >accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, >even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. > >My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of >Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in >February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be >some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird >and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >>gone"). Gruesome by inference. >> >>At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >>> >>>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >>> >>>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>>New York: >>>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>>1925 >>>.... >>>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>>advance for my typing. >>>.... >>>.... >>>Pg. 70: >>>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>>Star bright, star bright, >>>First star I've seen tonight, >>>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>>.... >>>Pg. 73: >>>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>>He loves me, he loves me not. >>>.... >>>Pg. 107: >>>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>>.... >>>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>>.... >>>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>>.... >>>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>>.... >>>Monday, health, >>>Tuesday, wealth, >>>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>>Thursday, crosses, >>>Friday, losses, >>>Saturday, no day at all. >> >.... >> >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >> >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >> >Ah, I have 'em brown, >> >Ah, I have 'em long, >> >Ah, I have 'em roun', >> >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >> >Daibble! >>>.... >>>Pg. 133: >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>>All goof children go to heaven, >>>One flew east and one flew west >>>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>>All goof children go to heaven, >>>Some go up and some go down, >>>And some go all around the town. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>>All good children go to heaven, >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>>All bad children are too late. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>>All good children go to heaven, >>>All the rest fo below, >>>To keep company with Jumbo, >>>or >>>To keep company with Guiteau. >>>.... >>>Pg. 138: >>>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >> >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>>.... >>>Pg. 139: >>>Nigger in the woodshed, >>>Don't you hear him holler? >>>Take him up to my house >>>And give him half a dollar. >>>.... >>>As I went up the apple tree, >>>All the apples fell on me. >>>Bake a pudding, >>>Bake a pie, >>>You're the one who told the lie. >>>.... >>>Knife and fork, >>>Bottle and cork, >>>That's the way >> >To spell New York. >>>.... >>>A rough shirt >>>And a standing collar >>>Will choke a nigger >>>Till he holler. >>>.... >>>Pg. 140: >>>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>>Some flew east, some flew west, >>>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>>.... >>>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>>Aka baka boo, >>>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>>How many nails did he put in it? >>>(Select a number & count that many.) >>>.... >>>Draw a bucket of water, >>>For my lady's daughter, >>>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>>And pray my lady go under. >>>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 142: >>>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>>.... >>>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>>Come put your right hand in, >>>Come put your right hand out, >>>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>>And turn your body about. >>>.... >>>Pg. 151: >>>Once upon a time, >>>When the fogs ate lime, >>>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>>And the geese drank wine. >>>.... >>>Once upon a time, >>>A fog made a rhyme, >>>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>>And the cat drank wine. >>>.... >>>Once I was a wish bone, >>>Grew within a hen, >>>Now I am a little slave, >>>That is made to wipe your pen. >>>.... >>>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>>.... >>>Christmas is coming, >>>Turkeys are fat, >>>Please drop a penny, >>>In the little boy's hat. >>>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 155: >>>All the cats consulted, >>>What was it about? >>>How to catch a little mouse >>>Running in and out. >>>.... >>>Rain, rain, go away >>>And come again another day, >>>For little Johnny >>>Wants to play. >>>.... >>>Rain come wet me, >>>Sun come dry me, >>>Go 'way Patsy, >>>Don't come nigh me. >>>.... >>>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>>.... >>>Take all you gimme. >>>.... >>>A fool for luck, >>>A poor man for children, >>>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>>And niggers for dogs. >>>.... >>>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>>.... >>>Pg. 156: >>>I had a piece of pork, >>>I put it on a fork, >>>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>>.... >>>Tattle tale tit, >>>Your tongue shall be split, >>>And all the girls in our town >>>Shall have a little bit. >>>.... >>>Cry baby cry, >>>Put your finger in your eye >>>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>>.... >>>Pg. 157: >>>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>>.... >>>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>>Then it will fly away home. >>>.... >>>Pg. 158: >>>My love for you will never fail, >>>So long as pussy has her tail. >>>.... >>>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>>You are my darling sugar lump. >>>.... >>>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>>.... >>>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>>.... >>>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>>Always come to some bad ends. >>>.... >>>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>>Are not fit for gods or men. >>>.... >>>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>>.... >>>Pg. 159: >>>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>>.... >>>Tit for tat; >>>If you kill my dog, >>>I;ll kill your cat. >>>.... >>>Multiplication is vexation. >>>Division is bad, >>>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>>And Practice drives me mad. >>>.... >>>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>>When we die, we die all over. >>>.... >>>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>>And when he died, he died all over. >>>.... >>>After breakfast, work awhile; >>>After dinner, sit awhile; >>>After supper, walk a mile. >>>.... >>>Pg. 173: >>>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>>But that man's father is my father's son, >>>What relation is that man to me? >>>(My Son.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 174: >>>A house full, a hole full, >>>You can't get a bowl full. >> >(Smoke.) >>>.... >>>Up and down, >>>Never touches sky nor ground. >>>(Pump Handle.) >>>.... >>>Pg.175: >>>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>>Little head and no eyes. >>>(Pair of tongs.) >>>.... >>>Round as a biscuit, >>>As busy as a bee, >>>The prettiest little thing, >>>You ever did see. >>>(A watch.) >>>.... >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>>Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 21:14:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:14:25 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Spoken by a black TV-show guest: He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. -Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:36:52 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:36:52 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or statistical hypocorrection. 1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social structure. 2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before unstressed syllables. dInIs >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > >-Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:31:29 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:31:29 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > >-Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Mar 16 21:49:35 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:49:35 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >be an American. In that case, all bets were off. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 16 21:47:35 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:47:35 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? Message-ID: An article in "Les Echos," a French-language business journal, claims that in the three years since the introduction of the Euro, no slang words for the unit of currency have appeared. Does anyone know if that's true outside of French? http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20050315/lec1_derniere/4238493.htm The article picked up some possibilities proposed by a paper-only revue known as "Teckel" (the article does not appear on its site ): "Eurouilles" (a play on "rouille" 'rust-colored') or "cuivres" ("coppers") for the 1, 2, and 5 cent pieces. "Roses" in general for "euros," from a supposed (plural?) American pronunciation of "euros" as "youroses." "Ponts" ("bridges") for the paper money, many which have images of generic architecture on them. The 5-euro bill could be the "petit pont" ("small bridge"), the 20-euro note the "grand pont" ("big bridge") or "carne" ("meat," a reference to the approximate 20-euro cost of a meal that includes meat at a restaurant). "Gillette" for the rarely seen 500 euro bill, because "it is quickly transformed into little cuts" ("il est vite transformé en petites coupures"), meaning it is quickly broken or changed for (more useful) smaller denomination bills. "Queue" for the 1000 euro bill, from the pronunciationof "kE," for "kilo Euro," referencing the saying, "win the tail and the ears," which I believe is a bull-fighting reference, or "cherry stems" ("des queues de cerise"), which I believe means "peanuts" or "small amount" or "scraps." There may be a ribald element here, since "queue" is widespread slang for "penis." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:43:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:43:26 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >statistical hypocorrection. > >1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >structure. > >2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >unstressed syllables. > >dInIs > >>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >>-Wilson From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Mar 16 22:01:52 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:01:52 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <200503162155.j2GLt7FS023352@mxe5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. Benjamin Barrett Questioning in Seattle -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Mar 16 22:26:39 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:26:39 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? In-Reply-To: <4238a99b.06ee3c51.2e23.4c00SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: > that in the three years since the introduction of the Euro, no slang > words for the unit of currency have appeared. Does anyone know if > that's true outside of French? My Milanese biker associates have used both "neuri" and "pleuri" -- "nerves/nuthouses" and, uh, the pleural membrane (with some gender reassignment). A Google search for "5 neuri" and "5 pleuri" show at least some currency, with 19 pleuri and 143 pleuri. Currency! I kill me. O. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 22:39:24 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:39:24 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may be a set phrase in this area; I doubt that it is anywhere else. I've also heard "a-dancin' and a-prancin'"--not common elsewhere, I'm sure. At 05:01 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 22:58:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? > >At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: > >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > > > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > > > >-Wilson From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Mar 16 23:27:47 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:27:47 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was "He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal context. On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a > clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge > Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has > made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common > street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his > low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge > Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he > decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. > But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to > another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >> >> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:22:14 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:22:14 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:36 PM -0500 3/16/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >unstressed syllables. But fortunately, we'd remember our Wolfram & Schilling-Estes just in time and pre-correct our imminent hypocorrection. Actually, in this case, couldn't we flatlanders do a little 'pocope prep first and come out with "I was a-'memberin..."? Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:26:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:26:40 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The near global application of "gook" was full-blown by 1945 among overseas service personnel in the Pacific, Africa, and Southern Europe. Basically it meant "native." Since the Vietnam War this broad sense seems to have declined in favor. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to be an American. In that case, all bets were off. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>What about "gobble-de-gook"? > >At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our >nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" >in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] > >Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all >restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody >'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. > >-- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:29:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:29:16 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:49 PM -0500 3/16/05, sagehen wrote: > >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >> >>-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ >Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >AM > I thought they began at Calais ("their" side of the Channel crossing)... Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:39:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:23 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: And these are the lyrics. Spike Jones recorded it with His City Slickers, but Billy Rose and Con Conrad wrote it in 1923. Billy DeBeck's comic strip began in 1919. Who's the most important man this country ever knew?Do you know what politician I have reference to?Well, it isn't Mr. Bryan, and it isn't Mr. Hughes.I've got a hunch that to that bunch I'm going to introduce:(Again you're wrong and to this throng I'm going to Introduce:)Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google bet his horse would win the prize.When the horses ran that day, Spark Plug ran the other way.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google had a wife three times his sizeShe sued Barney for divorceNow he's living with his horseWho's the greatest lover that this country ever knew?And who's the man that Valentino takes his hat off to?No, it isn't Douglas Fairbanks that the ladies rave about.When he arrives, who makes the wives chase all their husbands out? Why, it's Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google is the guy who never buys.Women take him out to dine, then he steals the waiter's dime.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google is the luckiest of guys.If he fell in to the mud, he'd come up with a diamond stud.Barney Google with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Who's the greatest fire chief this country ever saw?Who's the man who loves to hear the blazing buildings roar?Anytime the house is burning, and the flames leap all about,Say, tell me do, who goes, "kerchoo!" and puts the fire out?Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, thought his horse could win the prize.He got odds of ten to eight; Spark Plug came in three days late.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google tried to enter paradise.When Saint Peter saw his face, he said, "Go to the other place".Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his goo-goo-googly eyes"? -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: neil >>> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: James C Stalker >>>> Subject: Re: twat >>>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) >>>>about a male >>>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have >>>>been known >>>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>>> than back. >>>> >>>> JCS >>>> >>>> James C. Stalker >>>> Department of English >>>> Michigan State University >>> >>> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >>> >>> --Neil Crawford >> >> How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >> spoken register of BE. >> >> -Wilson Gray > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:48:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:48:15 -0800 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) Message-ID: Living in Target A, "stories" didn't bother me so much as did the evening news, and the sound of air raid sirens being tested once a month. (Ours was atop the building across the street !) I still can't look at footage of nuclear tests. I had a student not long ago who thought who thought H-bomb blasts were aesthetically pleasing. She planned to buy posters for her room. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. > >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. > >.... > >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. > >Ah, I hav 'em hot, > >Ah, I have 'em brown, > >Ah, I have 'em long, > >Ah, I have 'em roun', > >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', > >Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. > >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way > >To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. > >(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:50:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:50:43 -0800 Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet Message-ID: At least for now, shouldn't that be " ' Irish' toasts " ? JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The local Metro newspaper has some Irish toasts from _www.stpatricksday.com_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com) . There are many sites of Irish toasts; it seems they all share/steal the same ones. There are no dates or attributions, of course. I'll look for a selected few, by request. ... Is Fred Shapiro considering any? ... ... _http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm_ (http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm) ... _http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html_ (http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html) ... _http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html_ (http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html) ... _http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm_ (http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm) ... _http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html) ... If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough! IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IRISH--419 Google hits ... May the wind at your back always be your own. MAY THE WIND AT YOUR BACK ALWAYS BE YOUR OWN--83 Google hits ... May you be in heaven 1/2 hour before the devil knows you're dead. HEAVEN + HOUR + DEVIL KNOWS + DEAD--9,790 Google hits ... As you slide down the banisters of life may the splinters never point the wrong way. BANISTERS OF LIFE + SPLINTERS--1,180 Google hits ... May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. TROUBLES + GRANDMOTHER'S TEETH--180 Google hits ... In Heaven there is no beer, that is why we drink it here. IN HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER--6,260 Google hits ... I drink to your health when I'm with you, I drink to your health when I'm alone I drink to your health so often, I'm starting to worry about my own. DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--785 Google hits ... I've drunk to your health in the pubs, I've drunk to your health in my home, I've drunk to your health so many times, That I've almost ruined my own. DRUNK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--41 Google hits ... Here's good luck to my wife's husband! GOOD LUCK TO MY WIFE'S HUSBAND--1 Google hit ... Here's to our wives and sweethearts!! May they never meet!! OUR WIVES AND SWEETHEARTS + NEVER MEET--322 Google hits ... May the roof above us never fall in, and may we friends gathered below never fall out. ROOF + FALL IN + NEVER FALL OUT--2,550 Google hits ... May your neighbors respect you, Troubles neglect you, The angels protect you, And Heaven accept you. RESPECT YOU + HEAVEN ACCEPT YOU--1,280 Google hits ... I have known many liked not a few loved only one so this toast's for you. LOVED ONLY ONE + THIS TOAST'S FOR YOU--6 Google hits ... Here's to you, here's to me, the best of friends we'll always be. But if we ever disagree, forget you here's to ME!! HERE'S TO YOU + HERE'S TO ME--522 Google hits ... Ireland - it's the one place on earth Heaven has kissed, with melody, mirth, meadow and mist. IRELAND + MELODY + MIRTH + MEADOW + MIST--541 Google hits ... may you have the hindsight to know where you've been the insight to know where you are and the foresight to know when you're going too far HINDSIGHT + WHERE YOU'VE BEEN + FORESIGHT + TOO FAR--668 Google hits ... my the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use GRASS GROW LONG + ROAD TO HELL--182 Google hits ... my the best day of your past be the worst day of your future BEST DAY OF YOUR PAST + WORST DAY OF YOUR FUTURE--817 Google hits ... May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. LIVE AS LONG AS YOU WANT + AS LONG AS YOU LIVE--672 Google hits ... May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. MAY YOUR HOME + TOO SMALL + FRIENDS--769 Google hits ... May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full moon on a dark night, and the road downhill all the way to your door. WARM WORD ON A COLD--2,180 Google hits --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:54:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:54:36 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: How 'bout this student? He used "thats" as an equivalent for "whose" applied to inanimate objects. Wouldn't stop either. He dropped the class. Of course the fact that it makes perfect sense has no bearing whatever on English usage. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spoken by a black TV-show guest: He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:57:54 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:57:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316164005.0354ed28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: All before stressed syllables. Ain't no hypocorrection (structural) goin on there. dInIs >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this >morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and >a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! > >At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >>term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >>statistical hypocorrection. >> >>1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >>situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >>nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >>structure. >> >>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>unstressed syllables. >> >>dInIs >> >>>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>>-Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:59:42 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:59:42 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a freshman theme. JL Benjamin Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. Benjamin Barrett Questioning in Seattle -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:03:06 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:03:06 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note that all so-called set phrases all obey the stress rule - a-fuedin and a fussin, a fussin and a-fighten, a screamin and a -hollerin, etc, etc. But a-drinkin and a-dancin are good (and not set), but a-fussin and a-arguin (no a-prefixin before vowels) and a-walking and a-peraumblulatin (no a-prexin before weakly stressed syllables) ainp;t worth a crap. dInIs dInIs >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:04:58 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:04:58 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316173748.0357fe00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A-dancin and a-prancin is widespread mongst us a-prefixers. dInIs >It may be a set phrase in this area; I doubt that it is anywhere >else. I've also heard "a-dancin' and a-prancin'"--not common elsewhere, >I'm sure. > >At 05:01 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >>just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. >> >>Benjamin Barrett >>Questioning in Seattle >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >>Beverly Flanigan >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--- >> >>By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >>isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >>Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >>interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >>a-screamin'"--four attestations! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:07:36 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:07:36 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). dInIs >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:08:43 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:08:43 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ya'll flatlander 'pocopers. I done forgot you! dInIs >At 4:36 PM -0500 3/16/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>unstressed syllables. > >But fortunately, we'd remember our Wolfram & Schilling-Estes just in >time and pre-correct our imminent hypocorrection. Actually, in this >case, couldn't we flatlanders do a little 'pocope prep first and come >out with "I was a-'memberin..."? > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:36:11 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:36:11 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). dInIs >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:59:01 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:59:01 -0500 Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" In-Reply-To: <200503170136.j2H1aDJX002808@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., used the expression "Heads I win, tails you lose" in _The Professor at the Breakfast-Table_ (1860). Is anyone able to trace earlier usage of this phrase? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 17 02:03:29 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:03:29 -0500 Subject: more on EARWORM Message-ID: I was looking at ear in the OED and found the following. I suspect it has already been mentioned. But I didn't see it. OED: ear-worm, ? = earwig; _fig._ a counsellor .... a1670 Hacket _Abp. Williams II_. 152 There is nothing in the oath to protect such an ear-worm, but he may be approached. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 17 02:10:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:10:29 -0500 Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" Message-ID: There's an 1822 London Times cite over at N'archive. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 8:59 PM Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" > Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., used the expression "Heads I win, tails you > lose" in _The Professor at the Breakfast-Table_ (1860). Is anyone able to > trace earlier usage of this phrase? > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:11:03 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:11:03 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8me7jg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >> >>-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ >Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >AM Good one! I've never heard that one before, but, as I've noted elsewhere, I enjoy a well-phrased ethnic or racial slur as well as anybody else. -Wilson > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:26:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:26:37 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive without /-s/. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Matthew Gordon >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 02:38:04 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:38:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geez. You assume that everyone knows what oogle means and how to pronounce it, and are you surprised! That’s what I like about language. I would suggest a consult of the HDAS, vol 2, p. 723., where we find “oogle” with this note: [for the alt. in vowel quality, cf. earlier GONEY and GOONEY] OGLE. The previous comments suggest that there might be a geographic or sociolinguistic distribution, or an intersection of the two. Maybe someone is looking for a dissertation topic? Eric’s suggestion that “gucken” ‘to peep’ might be an etymological source is interesting as well. I think I’ll go check out a few Yiddish sites. JCS Johnni Wuest writes: James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 02:53:22 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:53:22 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: right, "who is car was it" is ungrammatical but what I'm saying is that he started to say "who's", maybe he had in mind something like "He asked me who's in the car" or something - anyway, he changed the structure of the sentence halfway through. As I type this I realize it sounds far fetched, but I wanted to suggest that someone concerned about impressing a judge is more likely to make their speech more formal (i.e. by undoing a contraction, and notice that 'who's' for 'who + was' is even more informal/vernacular than 'who + is') than to make it more informal. This would seem all the more likely if, as suggested, the speaker is a vernacular-speaking young African American talking to an older African American in a position of authority. In this context I can't understand the social motivation to make his speech more vernacular which is what 'whose > who' seems to result from. Anyway, maybe Wilson has intuitions on this: is possessive 'who' a possible AAVE form (e.g. He the man who car I borrowed)? I realize that's why this example was posted as an example of hypocorrection, but does the form exist? You don't get in AAVE, as far as I know, possessive 'he' instead of 'his'. You have 'they' alternating with 'their' (e.g. That's they problem), but that's probably a result of r-lessness originally. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 8:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive without /-s/. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Matthew Gordon >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:58:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:58:45 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >so he'd want to avoid them here. > >BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). > >dInIs > >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:11:04 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:11:04 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... >> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >> -Wilson [Gray] but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them (note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury vapor): ----- ...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... ----- people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the "of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate construction, and fixed things. i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" ("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base "correct(ion)". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 03:18:25 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:18:25 -0500 Subject: Heads I win, tails you lose; Winning is best deodorant Message-ID: HEADS I WIN, TAILS YOU LOSE (ADS-L ARCHIVES) 1835: In relation to the [stock] brokers, we fear it has been "heads I win – tails you lose" Evening Star, January 17, 1835, p. 2, col. 3 I see in the OED, sense 3b, under Head, noun, citations giving this phrase from 1846 and 1907, both English. Whiting's Early American Proverbs has it from 1814. GAT (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) The National Intelligencer and Washington Advertiser, 2 September 1805, pg. 2, col. 3: As to the speculators from the south, they had the advantage in the toss up; they said heads, I win, tails, you lose; they could not lose any thing for they had nothing at stake. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT (FACTIVA) SPORTS BOMBERS CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO WIN TIME RUNNING OUT IN ANSWER SEARCH Marc Katz DAYTON DAILY NEWS 1,168 words 20 January 1994 Dayton Daily News CITY 1D English (Copyright 1994) SPORTS (...) "When you're winning, you're not worried about anything," Derek Donald said. "When you're winning, you don't look for anything. When you're losing, you look for something. "Winning is the best deodorant. It covers up everything." (FACTIVA) NATIONAL My, how Bucs' fortunes change ERNEST HOOPER 845 words 23 December 1997 St. Petersburg Times 0 SOUTH PINELLAS 1A English (Copyright 1997) Football analyst and former NFL coach John Madden loves to say winning is the best deodorant. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:20:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:20:08 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2005, at 5:07 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive > ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the > possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps > in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). that was the interpretation i assumed in my response (which has finally gone out, after some hours of mailer woes). arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 03:23:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:23:57 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was beginning to think I was the only one left who automatically eschews the unnecessary, illogical, and bedamned "of" in those constructions. I'm sure it's ancient, but I only began to notice the "of" within the last 20 years or so. (Yeah, I know....) Yet, to judge from CNN & Fox, this - like "is is" - is now the near-universal rule in speech, not the exception. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... >> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >> -Wilson [Gray] but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them (note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury vapor): ----- ...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... ----- people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the "of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate construction, and fixed things. i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" ("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base "correct(ion)". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 03:27:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:27:10 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Wilson, ever notice how many of Jerry's guests have low-prestige Southern or AAVE accents? Maybe the producers think the NYC Leo Gorcey types are too scary. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >so he'd want to avoid them here. > >BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). > >dInIs > >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:38:09 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:38:09 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" _by accident_. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >right, "who is car was it" is ungrammatical but what I'm saying is that = >he started to say "who's", maybe he had in mind something like "He asked = >me who's in the car" or something - anyway, he changed the structure of = >the sentence halfway through. As I type this I realize it sounds far = >fetched, but I wanted to suggest that someone concerned about impressing = >a judge is more likely to make their speech more formal (i.e. by undoing = >a contraction, and notice that 'who's' for 'who + was' is even more = >informal/vernacular than 'who + is') than to make it more informal. This = >would seem all the more likely if, as suggested, the speaker is a = >vernacular-speaking young African American talking to an older African = >American in a position of authority. In this context I can't understand = >the social motivation to make his speech more vernacular which is what = >'whose > who' seems to result from. I agree with this, but we're clearly keyboarding past each other. It may help to provide more background. The defendant was trying to explain what happened after he and his girlfriend were stopped by the police for driving a car with illegal plates. He had stolen a pair of dealer plates from his job and covered the DEALER designation with masking tape, so that the cops wouldn't notice. They didn't notice the DEALER, but they did notice the masking tape. Since the car was owned by his now ex-girlfriend and was being driven by her, she was ticketed, her car was impounded, etc. So, she was suing him for the money she lost in fines, impound fees, etc. -Wilson > >Anyway, maybe Wilson has intuitions on this: is possessive 'who' a = >possible AAVE form (e.g. He the man who car I borrowed)? I realize = >that's why this example was posted as an example of hypocorrection, but = >does the form exist? You don't get in AAVE, as far as I know, possessive = >'he' instead of 'his'. You have 'they' alternating with 'their' (e.g. = >That's they problem), but that's probably a result of r-lessness = >originally. On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, bitch?!" a zillion times. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 8:26 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a >policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was >to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive >without /-s/. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Matthew Gordon >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >> >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge > >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >>> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:44:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:44:17 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It makes sense to me. Thanks, arnold, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... > >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson [Gray] > >but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for >something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like >someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them >(note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then >fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't >aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. > >as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an >interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury >vapor): > >----- >...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... >----- > >people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the >"of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. >so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate >construction, and fixed things. > >i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. >whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" >("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, >but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the >tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base >"correct(ion)". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:42:21 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:42:21 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Yeah but that's copula deletion (who < who's) not possessive deletion. What I haven't heard is "The baby who daddy that is called me yesterday" etc. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 9:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, bitch?!" a zillion times. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 17 03:48:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:48:48 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 4:49 PM -0500 3/16/05, sagehen wrote: >> >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >>> >>>-Wilson Gray >> ~~~~~~~~ >>Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >>AM >> >I thought they began at Calais ("their" side of the Channel crossing)... > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~ You trine 'a be *reasonable*? Think INSULAR, man! AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:51:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:51:44 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, I've been vindicated! About thirty years ago, a friend gently chided me wrt my once-unconscious - till he called it to my attention - use of the "is is" construction. ;-) -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I was beginning to think I was the only one left who automatically >eschews the unnecessary, illogical, and bedamned "of" in those >constructions. > >I'm sure it's ancient, but I only began to notice the "of" within >the last 20 years or so. (Yeah, I know....) Yet, to judge from CNN >& Fox, this - like "is is" - is now the near-universal rule in >speech, not the exception. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... > >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson [Gray] > >but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for >something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like >someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them >(note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then >fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't >aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. > >as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an >interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury >vapor): > >----- >...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... >----- > >people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the >"of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. >so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate >construction, and fixed things. > >i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. >whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" >("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, >but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the >tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base >"correct(ion)". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:26:33 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:26:33 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course not; I didn't say there was. At 07:57 PM 3/16/2005 -0500, you wrote: >All before stressed syllables. Ain't no hypocorrection (structural) >goin on there. > >dInIs > > > >>By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >>isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this >>morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >>Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and >>a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! >> >>At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >>>term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >>>statistical hypocorrection. >>> >>>1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >>>situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >>>nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >>>structure. >>> >>>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>>unstressed syllables. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >>>>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>>-Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 04:10:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:10:31 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I have noticed this. As a matter of fact, it's one of my reasons for watching the show. I love hearing the way that the guests talk. And I find myself really annoyed when Jerry takes it upon himself to mock the dialects of the guests. They've made him rich. Why dump on them any more than life already has? These are people whose lives are such that they consider an appearance on "The Jerry" to be an honor. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Wilson, ever notice how many of Jerry's guests have low-prestige >Southern or AAVE accents? Maybe the producers think the NYC Leo >Gorcey types are too scary. > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry >Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs >provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's >possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as >spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always >one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the >speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any >information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. > >As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was >revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown >read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information >than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >>standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >>suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >>(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >>or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >>so he'd want to avoid them here. >> >>BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = > >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = > >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = > >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >>Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >>"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>=20 >>Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >>;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >>possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >>in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). >> >>dInIs >> >>>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>>context. >>> >>> >>>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a > >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >>Judge >>>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >>he >>>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>>> >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >>------- >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >>been >>>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>>> >>>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>>> >>>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Wilson >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >>Languages >>A-740 Wells Hall >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>Phone: (517) 432-3099 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 >>preston at msu.edu > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 04:20:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:20:41 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yeah but that's copula deletion (who < who's) not possessive deletion. Quite so. I regret the error. > = >What I haven't heard is "The baby who daddy that is called me yesterday" = >etc. > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 9:38 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, >bitch?!" a zillion times. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 05:37:29 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:37:29 -0500 Subject: More "Irish Toasts" (from Factiva, 1986, 1990, 1992, 1995, 1998, 2000) Message-ID: "Banister of life" seems clearly from Australia. Happy St. Patrick's Day, anyway. (FACTIVA) Irish toasts 309 words 17 March 2000 Deseret News C01 English Copyright (c) 2000 Deseret News Publishing Co. May the road rise up to meet you; May the wind be always at your back, the sunshine warm upon your face The rain fall soft upon your fields, And until we meet again, May God hold you in the hollow of his hand. May you taste the sweetest pleasures that fortune ere bestowed, and may all your friends remember all the favors you are owed. May misfortune follow you the rest of your life, but never catch up. As you slide down the banisters of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way. May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. A toast to your coffin. May it be made of 100-year-old oak. And may we plant the tree together, tomorrow. May you live to be a hundred years, With one extra year to repent! May I see you grey And combing your grandchildren's hair. May your blessings outnumber the shamrocks that grow, And may trouble avoid you wherever you go. When the roaring flames of your love have burned down to embers, may you find that you've married your best friend. May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. May the most you wish for Be the least you get. May your troubles be less And your blessings be more. And nothing but happiness Come through the door. May you have food and raiment, A soft pillow for your head, May you be forty years in heaven Before the devil knows you're dead. May your neighbors respect you, Trouble neglect you, The angels protect you, And heaven accept you, May the Irish hills caress you. May her lakes and rivers bless you. (FACTIVA) WEEKEND PLUS SPIRITED IRISH TOASTS 152 words 13 March 1998 Chicago Sun-Times LATE SPORTS FINAL 54; nc English Copyright (c) 1998 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. One of the traditional rites of the Irish is the presentation of a toast before downing libations. To help you get in the spirit, here are some Irish good wishes: May the road rise to meet you May the wind be always at your back. May the sun rise warm upon your face. . . May God hold you in the hollow of his hand. Long may you live. And may smoke always rise from your roof. Here's to the health of your enemies! May you live long, die happy and rate a mansion in Heaven. May the roof of your house never fall in and those beneath it never fall out. May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. May you be in Heaven a full half hour afore the devil knows ye're dead. May the luck of the Irish enfold you. May the blessings of Saint Patrick behold you. (FACTIVA) Feature Looking at language Raise a glass to these great Irish toasts Richard Lederer For The Patriot Ledger 657 words 13 March 1995 The Patriot Ledger Quincy, MA Run Of Paper 12 English (Copyright 1995) In "Toasts," Paul Dickson writes, "There is no area of the world where English is spoken that can compare to Ireland as a stronghold for the custom of toasting. More often than not, toasts go by the name of `blessings' in Ireland. There are large numbers of them, and their use seems to be on the increase. All you have to do is listen, and if you spend the day in the Irish countryside, you will go away with countless blessings ringing in your ears." With St. Patrick's Day coming up this Friday, I present a guest column on the subject by Elaine O'Connor, a freelance writer and Irish folklorist who lives in Lowell: Long live the Irish! Long live their cheer! Long live our friendship Year after year. If you are lucky enough to be toasted by an Irishman or Irishwoman, you might be complimented so: "May you live a hundred years -- with one extra to repent." Or, "May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the foresight to know where you are going and the insight to know when you are going too far." On Christmas Eve, there is an old Irish custom of leaving the door unlocked and burning a candle in the window. The blessing states: "May peace and plenty be the first to lift the latch off your door and happiness be guided to your home by the candle of Christmas." In the New Year the Irish say: "May your right hand always be stretched out in friendship and never in want." The practice of toasting, which began in Ireland in the 1600s, depended on a special element or the toast would not work. The toast need not be rendered in Gaelic, but surely must contain a gentle splash of Irish whiskey. A piece of toast was dropped into the goblet, and the courtly and formalized ritual began. Some of the most memorable are: "I propose a toast to the health of your enemy's enemy. (That is, you.)" To an Irish bachelor: "May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the new spuds are up." "I propose a toast to the next round of drinks." "May the hinges of our friendship never grow rusty." "If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you are lucky enough!" "May the road rise to meet you. "May the wind be always at your back "And the sun shine warm on your face, "The rain fall soft upon your fields, "And until we meet again, "May God hold you in the hollow of His hand." "May you have these: the bright warm sun of happiness, the soft cool shades of joy and many pleasures the whole life through." "These things I wish for you: "Someone to love, "Some work to do, "A bit of sun, "A bit of cheer, "And a guardian angel always near." "May you be half an hour in heaven before the devil knows you are dead." "May you live to be 100 and be dispatched by a jealous husband (or wife)." This one is from the breastplate of St. Patrick: "May you be blessed with the strength of heaven, "The light of the sun and the radiance of the moon, "The splendor of fire, the speed of lightning, "The swiftness of wind, the depth of the sea, "The stability of earth and the firmness of rock. The well-known reply, "Here's mud in your eye," is not a toast to a friend but a toast to the one doing the toasting. It means the rider of the losing horse on a muddy track will have mud splashed in his eye from the horse of the winner. (FACTIVA) LIFESTYLE Ellie Rucker Luck of Irish is with reader Ellie Rucker 618 words 7 March 1992 Austin American-Statesman FINAL D1 English (Copyright 1992) Q:Do you know anybody who can speak Irish? I'm in charge of a St. Patrick's Day party and we'd like to make some invitations, that instead of saying, "You are cordially invited," use the Irish expression for that. I can't find anything. - Ann Strom A:The Emerald Restaurant out on 71 West has been a good source in the past. Once again, they came through. They suggest: "You will be met by a hundred thousand welcomes" is "Cead mile failte." Now, want some Irish blessings? Good. Here are some: May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live. May you be in heaven a half-hour before the devil knows you're dead. May the good Lord take a likin' to you, but not too soon. The Irish recipe for longevity: Leave the table hungry, leave the bed sleepy and leave the tavern thirsty. If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough. (FACTIVA) TASTE Sayings could fill a book, and they do Ellen Foley; Staff Writer 745 words 14 March 1990 Star-Tribune Newspaper of the Twin Cities Mpls.-St. Paul METRO 01T English (Copyright 1990) The Irish are a gregarious lot who love to mingle in their local pubs and toast to the good fortune of their family and neighbors. Perhaps the social character of their culture has been preserved best in some of the colorful sayings and toasts which Taste has collected for your St. Patrick's Day celebration. The first is called "An Irish Prayer," but one can imagine it recited at a dinner or gathering. It's contributed by Betty and Kiernan Folliard of Hopkins, whose brogues attest to its authenticity: An Irish Prayer May those that love us, love us And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts And if He doesn't turn their hearts, May He turn their ankles, So we'll know them by their limping. One of the better known sayings comes to us from Tim McGuire, managing editor of the Star Tribune: May you be in heaven a half-hour before the devil knows you're dead. Adds McGuire: "We journalists need all the help we can get." Another proud local Irish-American is Bob Haugh, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of St. Paul Companies and a descendent of the Haughs of County Clare. He and his brother, Dr. John Haugh of Milwaukee, remember their grandmother speaking gently in Gaelic of her husband: "The head of the goose is for the head of the house." The saying loses a bit in translation and may rattle the sensibilities of more liberated Irish-American women, but in more plain terms it means, "Give papa the best we have, for he works hard to support us." The sweet sentiment of love between spouses is also expressed in this anniversary toast supplied to Taste by columnist John Byrne of the Irish Echo, a national Irish-American newspaper based in New York: I have known many And liked a few I've loved only one I drink to you Byrne solicited from his Irish friends several other toasts with which to celebrate other holidays. For birthdays: May you live as long as you want And never want as long as you live. May you die in bed at 95 years Shot by a jealous husband (or wife). May you live to be 100 years With one extra year to repent. I drink to your coffin: May it be built from the wood of a 100-year-old oak tree That I should plant tomorrow For bachelors: May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the spuds are up. Health and Life to you The wife of your choice to you Land without rent to you For a wake: May every hair on your head Turn into a candle to light your way to heaven And may God and His Holy Mother take the harm of the years away from you. For a wedding: A generation of children on the children of your children For friends: May the roof above us never fall in And may we friends gathered below never fall away May the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use. There is even now a book called "Irish Toasts" collected and illustrated by Karen Bailey ($5.95, Chronicle Books, 1987). The book is available at Irish Books and Media, Inc., 1433 Franklin Av. E., Minneapolis, 871-3505. The 58-page book has some of the most unusual and most well-known Irish toasts, including this ditty familiar to most gift shop browsers: May the road rise to meet you May the wind always be at your back The sun shine warm upon your face The rain fall soft upon your fields And until we meet again May God hold you in the hollow of His Hand Some of the more unusual toasts from the book include: In the New Year, may your right hand always Be stretched out in friendship and never in want May you have warm words on a cold evening A full moon on a dark night And a road downhill all the way to your door. And since this is the Taste section and the new Irish cusine is our focus, here's one last toast from Bailey's book: The health of the salmon to you, A long life, A full heart And a wet mouth. Happy St. Patrick's Day! (FACTIVA) Sport VO ROGUE FAILS TO OUT-RUN STIPES >From ALAN AITKEN 479 words 25 February 1990 Sun Herald 71 English Copyright of John Fairfax Group Pty Ltd VO ROGUE'S Melbourne autumn campaign may be abandoned after the bitterness of losing yesterday's St George Stakes on a protest. His Melbourne mission had been the Australian Cup at Flemington on March 12 but the gelding's connections lashed out angrily after losing to King's High in the stewards' room at Caulfield. "Whether we just go straight to Sydney or not now is up to the owners but we were definitely robbed here," an emotional trainer Vic Rail said after the protest decision was announced. "As you slide down the banister of life you just consider that another splinter in the arse," said part owner Jeff Perry. (FACTIVA) PEOPLE RED HAIR, WHITE LINEN, AND GREEN BEER 3,597 words 17 March 1986 The San Francisco Chronicle FINAL 14 English (Copyright 1986) (...) -- From UC-Berkeley folklorist and anthropologist Alan Dundes: "What's an Irish seven-course dinner? A six-pack and a potato." (...) BUT DON'T TALK WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL None of this "cheers" or "salud" bit when you're raising your glasses today. "The Irishman never uses one word when he can get away with 10," says Jack McGowan of Dublin, communications manager of Irish Distillers International Inc., who is visiting San Francisco today for an Irish coffee celebration at the Cliff House. McGowan has made a collection of Irish toasts, beginning with the one made familiar by President John F. Kennedy, the most successful of American-born Irishmen: "May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, the sun shine warm upon your face, the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again, may God hold you in the hollow of his hand." Or, if that's a little too wordy: "May God hold you in the hollow of his hand but never close his fist too tightly upon you." For a general occasion, McGowan suggests: "Health and long life to you, the man or woman of your choice to you, land without rent to you, and may you be half an hour in heaven before the devil knows you're dead." To an unwed friend: "May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the new spuds are up." For a birthday: "May you live as long as you want but never want as long as you live." BLAKE GREEN From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 06:18:01 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:18:01 -0500 Subject: "Scofflaw" in Harvard Crimson (1923, 1924) Message-ID: I'm going to add "scofflaw" to my web page. As usual, my notes in the old ADS-L archives are all unavailable...Note the "scoffing at the law" in October 1923. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=422468 Published on Thursday, October 11, 1923 TOO LIBATORY No writer attributed Although the University Glee Club has "washed its hands" of the double quartet whose rendition of "Johnny Harvard" called forth Mr. Delcevare King's criticism, it scarcely seems necessary for the college to disown these men. At the time when this and many other old Harvard songs were written Prohibition had not yet made the convivial board a rare and clandestine affair. A ban now on all such jolly old songs would be much like the absurd ban on the teaching of German in this country during the war. If, perhaps, Mr. King would not have all such songs put out of everybody's reach, when would he have them sung? For the songs were written to be sung, not read, I pently if, by his interpretation of the American Bar Association's warning, singing "Johnny Harvard" after the debate was scoffing at the Prohibition Law, singing it anywhere would likewise be scoffing at the Law. The song itself was written as a toast to Harvard, not "to glorify the joys of drinking". It happens, so ingrown are the bad habits of Americans, that at many a banquet toasts are still made and drunk, albeit necessarily in water or lemonade. It is quite likely that "Johnny Harvard" was sung with glasses in hand. Take away the wine from the banquet and the glasses from the song and the two cases are practically parellel-except that singing a toast in public is more attractive to the ear than speaking a toast in public. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423683 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 PAGE SENATOR SOUNDER No writer attributed After sifting 25,000 words submitted by more than 6000 contestants, Mr. Delcevare King of Quincy, staunch and ingenious disciple of Prohibition, has chosen the composite "scofflaw" as best describing those revolting, unregenerate citizens who delight in violating the Eighteenth Amendment. This word was selected because best of all it conjured up nauseating visions, true portraits of the lawbreakers, and suggested to every right-thinking person their deep and ignominious depravity. Just repeat "scofflaw" quietly several times; its deadly effect is immediately apparent. Anyone who applies the term to a fellow citizen will do well to follow the famous advice of "the Virginian",--"When you call me that--smile!" Besides rendering the country the marked service of producing a cabalistic word eminently suited to turn bootleggers to stone and petrify rum-runners in their very tracks, Mr. King has set the fashion which undoubtedly will become popular of inventing expressive nick-names of sufficient repulsiveness to apply to nuisances and wrong-doors of every kind. If one is plagued by cigarette borrowers, one can wreak one's vengeance by calling them "ciggabars" or "gottabutts". Or if one's room mate insists on leaving the bath-room door open when the bed-room window is up, one might effectively insult him with the epithet "atmophile", or even in extreme cases "aerodome". The possibilities of this sort of thing are really unlimited. Mr. King little knows what potent forces he has unleashed. But even if such new-coined words of opprobrium enjoy a short-lived popularity, it is probable that the good old monosyllabic terms of the Anglo-Saxon language will still retain their unquestioned away over man's emotions. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423684 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 "SCOFILAW" WILL MAKE LAWLESS DRINKER CRINGE Delcevare King '95 Now Offers Another $200 Prize for Best Essay on Why the Imbiber Should Bear This Name No writer attributed Email this article to a friend Send a letter to the editor Print this article "Scofflaw, n. One who drinks liquor made or obtained illegally." The dictionary of the future will contain the above entry, if the popular imagination is captured by the winning word in the $200 contest which has been conducted recently by Delcevare King '95 for an epithet of bitter opprobrium applicable to a lawless drinker. From among over 25,000 words submitted by 6234 people, the winning term was chosen, according to the announcement of the award made last night by the judges. Inspiration Hits Two at Once This term occurred to two individuals as the one most appropriate name for the violator of the eighteenth amendment, so that it has been necessary to divide the $200 between the two originators, Henry Irving Dale of Andover, and Miss Kate L. Butler of Fields Corner. Despite the alleged unpopularity of the wets in the West and the many entries received from that section of the country, Massachusetts, the stronghold of anti-Volstead sentiment, has furnished the chosen epithet. In order to popularize his new term, Mr. King stated that; coincident with the close of the old contest, a new one will begin, in which another $200 will be divided among the authors of the five best 100 word statements of why the drinker of illegal beverages should be called a "scofflaw". This second contest closes on January 31. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423683 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 PAGE SENATOR SOUNDER No writer attributed After sifting 25,000 words submitted by more than 6000 contestants, Mr. Delcevare King of Quincy, staunch and ingenious disciple of Prohibition, has chosen the composite "scofflaw" as best describing those revolting, unregenerate citizens who delight in violating the Eighteenth Amendment. This word was selected because best of all it conjured up nauseating visions, true portraits of the lawbreakers, and suggested to every right-thinking person their deep and ignominious depravity. Just repeat "scofflaw" quietly several times; its deadly effect is immediately apparent. Anyone who applies the term to a fellow citizen will do well to follow the famous advice of "the Virginian",--"When you call me that--smile!" Besides rendering the country the marked service of producing a cabalistic word eminently suited to turn bootleggers to stone and petrify rum-runners in their very tracks, Mr. King has set the fashion which undoubtedly will become popular of inventing expressive nick-names of sufficient repulsiveness to apply to nuisances and wrong-doors of every kind. If one is plagued by cigarette borrowers, one can wreak one's vengeance by calling them "ciggabars" or "gottabutts". Or if one's room mate insists on leaving the bath-room door open when the bed-room window is up, one might effectively insult him with the epithet "atmophile", or even in extreme cases "aerodome". The possibilities of this sort of thing are really unlimited. Mr. King little knows what potent forces he has unleashed. But even if such new-coined words of opprobrium enjoy a short-lived popularity, it is probable that the good old monosyllabic terms of the Anglo-Saxon language will still retain their unquestioned away over man's emotions. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=263917 Published on Tuesday, January 29, 1924 "FINE!" SAYS DELCEVARE KING OF ADVOCATE OFFER No writer attributed "That's fine! Let us turn on the light and get people thinking!" was the comment of Delcevare King '95 when informed of the Advocate's prize contest for the best word stigmatizing Drys. Mr. King, whose own prize contest resulted in the dubbing of prohibition violators as "Scofflaws", went on to say: "People can poke fun at the idea that the violator of law is a menace to the government, but after all law is the basis of government. Keep the thing before the public--both sides of it. The more it is discussed, the sooner right will come out on top." Despite his enthusiasm for the Advocate's contest, however, Mr. King offered no epithet with which to brand the "Anti-scofflaw". http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423942 Published on Friday, February 08, 1924 HARVARD PROVES DRIER THAN DELCEVARE KING SO DESPERATE EDITORS RAISE THE ANTE No writer attributed The prize offered by the Editors of the Advocate to the person contributing the best word stigmatizing Drys has been raised from 10 dollars to 25 dollars. In spite of the large number of suggestions already sent in, the Board feels that the increased award will attract many more. The contest is taking on a national aspect and a full expression of public opinion is desired. All the New England states have already been heard from as well as New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, West Virginia, Texas, Florida, Colorado, the District of Columbia, and several provinces of Canada. Among the 500 names now in the Editor's hands, the most popular seem to be "dry rot", "camelouse", and "dryad". But the sponsor of "scofflaw" comes in for his share of the scorn. A "Boston deb" has entered the word "Delcevare" as best stimulating a dry. She desires that the prize be held and awarded to the person writing the best essay on "Why it is a stinging insult to call a man Delcevare." Most of the entries, however, have come from married women and on all sorts of paper, some scrawled in pencil on scraps, others neatly written on the best grade of highly scented vellum. Only ten suggestions have been received from the University thus far, and in hopes of obtaining more, the Advocate will take entries over the telephone daily except Saturday and Sunday from 5 to 6 o'clock in the evening, until the close of the contest on February 13. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423980 Published on Wednesday, February 13, 1924 Delcevare King Shows Partiality to Alma Mater; $25 in Prize Money Has Already Been Snapped Up by Harvard Men No writer attributed Mr. Delcevare King '95, whose notorous "scofflaw" contest brought him national praise and approbrium, is now engaged in announcing the winners of his subsequent prize offers for the best statements on why a "scofflaw" is aptly denominated by that term. This operation requires time. Yesterday Mr. King gave out the names of the winners of his five special prizes, today he announces the fifth and fourth prize-winners, tomorrow will occur the climax of the release of the names of those who have captured third, second, and first places. In this way ample publicity is to be secured. No less than $25 of the $80 already distributed has gone to Harvard graduates. Yesterday came the word that the Rev. Charles Newell St. John '08 of Montpelier, Vermont is one of the five special prize winners. Today the winner of fourth place is announced as Mr. Ellery H. Clark '96 of Boston. Mr. Clark's statement concludes as follows: "The Scofflaw, most emphatically, does not 'Play the Game'. The Umpire, the American Nation, has ruled that Prohibition is 'safe', and that the drinker is 'out'. But the Scofflaw refuses to accept the Umpire's ruling. To hell with America!' he snarls, "I've got to have my drink!" "Behold him a skulker; a non-American; a 'poor sport'; lacking the man hood to play the Game.'" http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424014 Published on Thursday, February 14, 1924 Communication A Rebuke No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: I want to point out that the word scofflaw was coined to stigmatize only those wets who advocate breaking or who do themselves break the law of the country. If a man conscientiously believes that the modification of the Volstead Act or the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment would be for the good of his country, and yet respects the law while it is on the books, the word scofflaw would in no way apply to him. Scofflaw is meant to stigmatize a certain class of lawbreakers, and this purpose is entirely legitimate. On the other hand, the competition which the Advocate is running is directed against a certain class of people only because they hold conscientious opinions. A scofflaw is no more the opposite of a dry than he is the opposite of a law-abiding wet. Thus this competition cannot possibly be considered an answer to Mr. Delcevare King's. It is but the beginning of a mud-slinging contest between wets and drys, and as such I do not think it ought to have the support of the CRIMSON which is a paper that should be above participating in such contests. --Horr Rooxey Gaulf '26 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424044 Published on Friday, February 15, 1924 King Favors Fellow-Townsman No writer attributed Delcevare King '95, continuing his policy of releasing one by one the names of the prize-winners in his second "scofflaw" contest, yesterday announced that second prize, in the shape of $50, has gone to the Rev. William Nicholl, a fellow-citizen of Quincy. The winner of first prize will be named today. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424064 Published on Saturday, February 16, 1924 Communication Another View No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: As much as I abhor giving any publicity whatsoever to that sterling citizen, Mr. Delcevare King, I should like to bring out one point which seems to have been overlooked in all these discussions over that admirable word "scofflaw", Mr. King's great claim to fame. In my mind, Prohibition is one of those unfortunate statutes which has tended to turn this country into a law-breaking rather than a law-abiding land. Moreover, those narrow-minded persons who refuse to see both sides of this question, instead of being the country's greatest patriots, as they delight in terming themselves, are merely hopelessly trying to have enforced without limitation a decree which has caused more law-abiding citizens to become, legally, criminals, and more criminals, actually, to become wealthy and influential men than any other law in the history of the country, to put it mildly. A scofflaw, may not be at heart a law breaker: it may be that he is a person who will not give his support to a law which makes honest men criminals and which tends to disrupt national peace. It is not that I support those who scoff at prohibition: it is, rather, that I have no sympathy for those reforming zealots who merely antagonize men of a wider outlook and deeper perspective by looking, as Kipling puts it, "too good" and talking "too wise". CARL RIMSEY HEUSSY '26. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424057 Published on Saturday, February 16, 1924 "SCOFFLAW" PRIZE ESSAYIST GOT TRAINING AT HARVARD No writer attributed Mr. Harold Bisbee '00 is the honored recipient of $100 in gold representing first prize in the "Scofflaw" Contest. His essay was one of the few submitted that would have won approval from the English Department, and perhaps he has his Harvard education to thank for that. The winning essay, made public this morning for the first time, contains little that is new. Its chief merit is the apt summary of Mr. Delcevare King's views. "The willingness with which obedience responds to enforcement is the acid test of true democracy," says Mr. Bisbee, in the course of his arguments to prove that the lawless should be abhorred as a "Scofflaw". http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=171877 Published on Monday, February 18, 1924 Communication "Compliments of the Author" No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: It is a satisfaction to read Mr. Hoyt Rodney Gale's searching communication. The issue is no longer Wet or Dry, but Law or Lawlessness, and the basis of all the Contest and my effort is to bring home to the lawless drinker that he is aiding in violating the law, and as such is, in the words of President Harding, "a menace to the Republic itself". The greatest domestic problem before our Nation today is "Shall the Constitution of the United States be obeyed?" The Scofflaw says "No!" Yours for stabbing awake the conscience of the Scofflaw, and the general conscience too, DELCEVARE KING. P. S.--Allow me to congratulate you on the spirit of fair play you show in publishing Mr. Gale's communication. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Mar 17 13:57:58 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:57:58 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: neil > on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>spoken register of BE. > 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - > with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i remember, heard [ugl].) And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* (and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 14:07:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:07:09 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil > on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>spoken register of BE. > 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - > with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i remember, heard [ugl].) And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* (and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 14:28:35 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:28:35 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <20050317140709.81891.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am in complete support of the Barney Google contamination theory of ogle /ogl/ to yield /ugl/. I offer no proof, but I sure like it. dInIs >Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. > >JL > >David Bowie wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Mar 17 15:51:48 2005 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:51:48 -0600 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) In-Reply-To: <1110907283.42371993c1520@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be used with the same meaning in your example? Damien Hall wrote: >This may well just be coincidental, but (also anecdotally) I have noticed >another, well, change going on with *change*, in some people's BrEng at least: > >*change* > *change up* > >as in > >'I haven't got any Euros at the moment, but I suppose I'll change some money up >on the boat' > >(said just before a trip from England to France on the ferry. Intonation made >it clear that this was a phrasal verb *change up* + PP *on the boat*, not >simplex *change* + PP *on the boat*; it's actually difficult to find examples >that are disambiguated by not being followed by a PP, since it seems that >*change up* is for money only, and you have to do that somewhere.) > >It's a subject of indignation in a way similar to Jim's, at least for my sister, >whose boyfriend it is who says this, causing her to rant that there's no reason >for the *up* and it should just be *change*. But my casual impression is that >I've heard it from others too. I suspect that there are contexts in which >*change up* is already part of the 'standard' lexicon (apart from gears, which >can be but aren't always changed up), but I can't come up with any. > >So this just adds to Jim's question. I am hearing *change up* where I would >expect *change*. Is there something about *change* that invites its >specification by a preposition in general, in the way that Doug indicated for >*change out* in particular? That seemed to me a good explanation for *change >out* and it would be nice if it could be generalised. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:22:54 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:22:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <20050317050030.4508BB24F5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: dInIs writes: >>>>> Note that all so-called set phrases all obey the stress rule - a-fuedin and a fussin, a fussin and a-fighten, a screamin and a -hollerin, etc, etc. But a-drinkin and a-dancin are good (and not set), but a-fussin and a-arguin (no a-prefixin before vowels) and a-walking and a-peraumblulatin (no a-prexin before weakly stressed syllables) ainp;t worth a crap. <<<<< A-talkin and a-writin and a-prefixin, ain't we? And Matthew Gordon writes: >>>>> OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. <<<<< Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for "Mommy is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive form of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" and "whose/who's car?". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:33:41 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:33:41 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: I was kidding about the laziness. I'm not calling the possessive a contraction; I'm talking about "who's' from 'who + was' as the contraction. Since this was a spoken example, we don't know whether the guy who said /huz/ meant 'whose' or 'who's'. The situation seemed to me to make uncontracting more likely as an explanation for /huz/ > 'who' than did the hypocorrection. Syntactically we have to say that he changed the structure of the sentence halfway, but... -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Mark A. Mandel Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 10:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? And Matthew Gordon writes: >>>>> OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. <<<<< Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for "Mommy is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive form of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" and "whose/who's car?". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:51:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:51:53 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from "goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with "book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: ----- Indiana Evening Gazette (Pa.), March 31, 1917, p. 3/3 There's a moral here for golfing gooks Who drive into woods and brooks-- 'Tis better to toss the texts away And forget what the golfing experts say, Like the good old Scot, who learned to play Ere they thought of golfing books. ----- (From the context of the verse, a "golfing gook" is a "duffer".) There's also the 1950s slang term "book gook" for a studious person, discussed in a post by Doug Wilson about a 1952 article on teen slang: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408A&L=ads-l&P=R7313 In a follow-up, I mentioned the use of "book gook" in a short 1952 film available on the Internet Archive called "Young Man's Fancy": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410D&L=ads-l&P=R355 The protagonist, a slang-slinging teenage girl named Judy Adams, pronounces "book gook" as /bUk gUk/ in this section of the film: ----- http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=1244 (2:45) Judy: For Pete's sake, wouldn't you know that goon brother of mine would bring home something that lives under a rock? Mrs. Adams: Judy, I do wish you'd speak English like normal human beings. Besides, I'm sure Mr. Phipps is a very nice young man. Judy: I know, but just because Bob is a book gook is no reason he has to bring another one home with him. ----- The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a secondary pronunciation. Is there any evidence that the xenonym "gook" has also been pronounced /gUk/? That might indicate influence from these other senses of "gook". --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 16:55:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:55:45 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: You can listen to the 1923 melody while reading the words here: http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/barneygoogle.htm JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am in complete support of the Barney Google contamination theory of ogle /ogl/ to yield /ugl/. I offer no proof, but I sure like it. dInIs >Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. > >JL > >David Bowie wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:02:33 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:02:33 -0800 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) In-Reply-To: <4239A794.60201@wku.edu> Message-ID: Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, what do they know?) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:51 AM -0600 Lesa Dill wrote: > I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting > the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't > work, would it? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 17:06:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:06:21 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: To mix up the mix further, I have also heard "gook" ("wog") pronounced to rhyme with "book," though this appears to be a distinctly infrequent approach. Perhaps cf. the variation between /hUd/ "thug" as people like me say it, and /hud/ as others do. (Couldn't believe this one either when I first heard it.) But I say / 'hudl at m /. Am coming around to the view that "Go figure !" was coined by a linguist. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from "goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with "book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: ----- Indiana Evening Gazette (Pa.), March 31, 1917, p. 3/3 There's a moral here for golfing gooks Who drive into woods and brooks-- 'Tis better to toss the texts away And forget what the golfing experts say, Like the good old Scot, who learned to play Ere they thought of golfing books. ----- (From the context of the verse, a "golfing gook" is a "duffer".) There's also the 1950s slang term "book gook" for a studious person, discussed in a post by Doug Wilson about a 1952 article on teen slang: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408A&L=ads-l&P=R7313 In a follow-up, I mentioned the use of "book gook" in a short 1952 film available on the Internet Archive called "Young Man's Fancy": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410D&L=ads-l&P=R355 The protagonist, a slang-slinging teenage girl named Judy Adams, pronounces "book gook" as /bUk gUk/ in this section of the film: ----- http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=1244 (2:45) Judy: For Pete's sake, wouldn't you know that goon brother of mine would bring home something that lives under a rock? Mrs. Adams: Judy, I do wish you'd speak English like normal human beings. Besides, I'm sure Mr. Phipps is a very nice young man. Judy: I know, but just because Bob is a book gook is no reason he has to bring another one home with him. ----- The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a secondary pronunciation. Is there any evidence that the xenonym "gook" has also been pronounced /gUk/? That might indicate influence from these other senses of "gook". --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 17:11:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:11:39 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From gingi at POBOX.COM Thu Mar 17 17:16:07 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:16:07 -0500 Subject: grammar changes with formality? Message-ID: I've noticed that the students at the school where I work tend to write notes to one another (or in the discussion conferences) only partially grammatically, sometimes even in "l33t" (originally designed to allow for as few letters as possible per word, for internet chat, but net-savvy teens seem to have adopted it as their own language). This doesn't really surprise me; though our kids have to prove academic merit in order to go here, they're still teens and will go their own way. :) What *did* surprise me was a note I got from a coworker today, with no capitalization and hardly any punctuation. This was a personal matter (she's handing down a bassinet to me), and it surprised me because her professional emails are generally quite grammatical. I have friends who write very ungrammatically, but it's across the board and is due to terrible writing teachers, not personal choice. Is this a trend? Am I just a grammar nazi for even noticing that she writes differently in an informal email than in a formal one? -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:24:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:24:11 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? Message-ID: Someone (Orin Hargraves? All I have is 'O.') wrote that Italians had started to use *neuri* / *pleuri* for 'Euros'. That reminded me that I once heard *neuros* myself in France. As it did for Orin, a Google search reveals what I would also call 'some frequency': there were some hits for both *neuro* and *neuros* as currency, though you have to just look at all the results to know whether the hit is on a reference to money or a ref to the prefix *neuro-*, which means the same as it does in English. The French nominalisation *neuro* is also a slang term for 'neurotic (n.)', or something like that. *Neuro* for money was much commoner in Google Groups than in websites. I once also asked whether *balles* ('(small) ball, bullet'), the slang term that the French had for francs, had been or could be transferred to euros. The emphatic answer was 'No', and a Google search confirms that. I *have* heard *balles* used since the introduction of the euro, but it still referred to francs: it was being used by people who still preferred to give monetary values in francs, not having got used to the new-fangled money. Examples of *neuros* from Google Groups below. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania =============================== les neuros ? Subject: [QUEST] les neuros ? Dans mes messages vers les newsgroup le sigle ? (Euro) devient ? à la lecture. z'avez une explication ? Solution ? Merci ================== Fixed font - Proportional font Ati rage pro 32 mo==> 18 neuros Only 1 message in topic - view as tree jude Apr 3 2003, 2:12 am show options Newsgroups: fr.petites-annonces.informatique.materiel From: j... at no-log.org (jude) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 10:25:16 GMT Local: Thurs,Apr 3 20032:25 am Subject: [VDS] Ati rage pro 32 mo==> 18 neuros Reply to Author| Forward| Print| Individual Message| Show original| Report Abuse Hello a vendre, ati rage pro 32 mo sur port agp achat en decembre 2002 puce ati, modele fabriquée par je sais pas qui. 18 euros sans port 20 euros avec port From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:32:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:32:24 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <51469.69.142.143.59.1111078313.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: > I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... >The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >secondary pronunciation. > ... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 17 17:44:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:44:14 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? In-Reply-To: <1111080251.4239bd3ba503f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2005, at 12:24, Damien Hall wrote: > Someone (Orin Hargraves? All I have is 'O.') wrote that Italians had > started to use *neuri* / *pleuri* for 'Euros'. It was Orion Montoya. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:46:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:46:42 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, You have now heard /guk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledy...". Well, you didn't really hear it, but you can imagine my dulcet tones. It has no connection with the xenoslur, but it may be connected (my introspector is broke today) with my guck, which I can pronounce either /g^k/ (contamination from 'yuck(y)'?) or /gUk/ (but definitely not /guk/. dInIs >At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >>"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >>this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >>senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >>"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: >> > >I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for >the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... > >>The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >>variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >>the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >>secondary pronunciation. >> >... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck >and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 17 18:08:51 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:08:51 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <20050317005942.38798.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree on both counts. Our college students pretend they don't know the form, until some finally admit that maybe their grandfather uses it (yeah, sure). And I've never seen it in writing. At 07:59 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost daily here in >East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college students, though. And I don't >believ I've ever seen it in a freshman theme. > >JL > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Barrett >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 18:21:17 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:21:17 -0500 Subject: Mobisode; Gold Collar; Bartendresses Message-ID: Greetings from my lunch hour. The guard approached me and said that he needed $1,000 or he might be gone from this earth by Monday. So then another person said that I could afford it, it's the guy's life, what am I, cheap? Life is working out great. Did I commit some crime that I have to do this for twenty years? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MOBISODE It's in today's Wall Street Journal, page B3. It's a "mobile episode." It should be researched and recorded. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GOLD COLLAR 17 March 2005, New York Daily News, pg. 38, col. 1: _SHE'S GOLD, HE'S BLUE_ _Blue-collars holdon to green--gold-collars spend big (...) The first is your old-fashioned, blue-collar kind of folk. The other has now officially been dubbed "gold collar." A new study by Chicago-based research firm Synovate has carved out a niche for these new gold collars--working-class kids who blow huge portions of their income on high-end luxuries. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BARTENDRESSES >From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote to say that she was in favor of calling females who work behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >From Philip Duff, Holland: "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always seemed to indicate a trained professional." Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, too. Here's what she had to say: "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his e-mail "Jeffrey" suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when referring to female bartenders. The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a good unisex term that should be employed when referring to bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 19:07:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:07:05 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0500 3/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >You have now heard /guk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledy...". >Well, you didn't really hear it, but you can imagine my dulcet tones. > >It has no connection with the xenoslur, but it may be connected (my >introspector is broke today) with my guck, which I can pronounce >either /g^k/ (contamination from 'yuck(y)'?) or /gUk/ (but definitely >not /guk/. > >dInIs No, I think they're independent. I have both "guck" /gUk/ and "gook" /g^k/ for the goopy mess--I'm not sure how I'd be able to tell if the latter pronunciation is an alternate rendering of "guck" or the phonetic representation of a distinct lexical item "gook" with the same meaning, as I've been assuming. But I have only "gobbledyg/U/k". L From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 17 19:07:25 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:07:25 -0000 Subject: Mobisode; Gold Collar; Bartendresses In-Reply-To: <8C6F9353E8E5E01-A48-5DC5@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > -------------------------------- MOBISODE > > It's in today's Wall Street Journal, page B3. It's a "mobile episode." > It should be researched and recorded. Your wish is my command. Using my magic time machine, I have just written a piece for last November's World Wide Words. It's at http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-mob1.htm -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 20:21:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:21:31 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the plural. Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 20:24:05 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:24:05 -0500 Subject: "All dressed up and no place to go" (1913) In-Reply-To: <200503140451.j2E4pvYR031040@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "All dressed up with > nowhere to go" from William Allen White, 1916. Meatloaf sang that lyric > as well, in the 1970s. > > PERCY HAMMOND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 21, > 1913. p. 10 (1 page): "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go" is the title > of Raymond Hitchock's comic lamentation this season in "The Beauty Shop" This goes back to 1912 in my files. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:33:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:33:37 -0600 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. > BARTENDRESSES > > From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: > > > Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches > > Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, > as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote > to say that she was in favor of calling females who work > behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. > Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with > Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . > > First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're > getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at > Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found > himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete > Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, > for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray > full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the > glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, > "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't > think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring > to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. > > Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: > > From Philip Duff, Holland: > > "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either > gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the > profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, > something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic > countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, > "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly > untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always > seemed to indicate a trained professional." > > Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? > > Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, > too. Here's what she had to say: > > "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being > called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If > I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or > outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men > pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would > Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a > pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to > "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- > > And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and > former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, > "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at > Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that > Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that > one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that > Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. > > A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she > didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even > "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to > call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before > they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his > e-mail "Jeffrey" > suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when > referring to female bartenders. > > The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a > good unisex term that should be employed when referring to > bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:37:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:37:11 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: >From Hee-Haw Roy Clark: "I'm a-pickin' . . ." Buck Owens: ". . . and I'm a-grinnin'". Also heard: Hootin' and a-hollerin'. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:00 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost > daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college > students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a > freshman theme. > > JL > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The > interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this > phrase for emphasis. > > Benjamin Barrett > Questioning in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > --- > > By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, > or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on > local radio this morning. > Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern > Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and > a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:50:49 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns of past Paul McEnroe; 23 July 1989 p. 01A "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" meeting. " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander > Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about > the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 17 21:06:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:06:27 -0500 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > >Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > >FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >of past >Paul McEnroe; >23 July 1989 p. 01A >"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >meeting. " Nexis has it from 1983: ----- Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a come-to-Jesus meeting here." ----- See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 21:25:54 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:25:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course you were "kidding about the laziness." Really? What's the evidence in support of this claim? All we know is what you wrote and nothing that you wrote supports the "kidding" (re)interpretation. Just kidding! >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I was kidding about the laziness. >I'm not calling the possessive a contraction; I'm talking about "who's' = >from 'who + was' as the contraction. Since this was a spoken example, we = >don't know whether the guy who said /huz/ meant 'whose' or 'who's'. The = >situation seemed to me to make uncontracting more likely as an = >explanation for /huz/ > 'who' than did the hypocorrection. Syntactically = >we have to say that he changed the structure of the sentence halfway, = >but... > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Mark A. Mandel >Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 10:22 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >And Matthew Gordon writes: > >>>>> >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness >so he'd want to avoid them here. > <<<<< > >Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a >contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for = >"Mommy >is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive = >form >of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" = >and >"whose/who's car?". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 22:09:30 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:09:30 -0600 Subject: looper Message-ID: looper (n.) a golfing caddy -- not in HDAS nor OED Caddyshack [film] written by Harold Ramis, Brian Doyle-Murray, Douglas Kenney, directed by Harold Ramis with improvised dialog by Bill Murray. 1980 "So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice. " ERIC SEAVALL TAKES LEAD IN GOLF TOURNEY FRANK FINCH Los Angeles Times; Dec 23, 1935; pg. 17 [quote from p. 19, col 3] "George Beer was the only caddy to qualify for the finals and now is hailed as the idol of the loopers." THE LOCKER ROOM CHARLES BARTLETT Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 14, 1957; pg. A5 col. 2 "He won this same C. D. G. A. caddie title in 1924 as a looper from Ravisloe." "The Caddyshack Revisited," James T. Mulder, Syracuse Herald American, 1984-05-27 p. L1 col. 2 "In golf parlance, caddies are called "loopers," because they're paid to walk the loop, or circuit, of holes that make up a golf course." [later in article, p. L-2 col 5] "The retired looper laments the decline of his profession." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:11:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:11:16 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Guck" is recorded much later than syn. "gook" and "gunk." This sort of {gook} is always, so far as I know, / gUk /. I assume "guck" is / g^k /." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: > I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... >The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >secondary pronunciation. > ... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:18:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:18:06 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Seems to me that "sundries" are frequently advertised on the windows of general stores in old westerns. At any rate, I am very familiar with the term, even if I've never heard it or used it. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the plural. Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:21:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:21:30 -0800 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: Yeah, "My name is X, and I'll be your waitstaff." Sounds like some kind of walking stick for corpulent. Have heard this for ten years at least, probably more. I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Bartendresses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. > BARTENDRESSES > > From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: > > > Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches > > Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, > as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote > to say that she was in favor of calling females who work > behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. > Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with > Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . > > First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're > getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at > Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found > himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete > Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, > for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray > full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the > glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, > "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't > think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring > to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. > > Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: > > From Philip Duff, Holland: > > "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either > gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the > profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, > something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic > countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, > "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly > untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always > seemed to indicate a trained professional." > > Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? > > Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, > too. Here's what she had to say: > > "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being > called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If > I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or > outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men > pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would > Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a > pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to > "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- > > And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and > former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, > "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at > Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that > Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that > one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that > Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. > > A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she > didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even > "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to > call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before > they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his > e-mail "Jeffrey" > suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when > referring to female bartenders. > > The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a > good unisex term that should be employed when referring to > bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:22:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:22:45 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns of past Paul McEnroe; 23 July 1989 p. 01A "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" meeting. " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander > Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about > the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:23:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:23:36 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." It has come to this.... JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > >Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > >FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >of past >Paul McEnroe; >23 July 1989 p. 01A >"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >meeting. " Nexis has it from 1983: ----- Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a come-to-Jesus meeting here." ----- See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 22:24:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:24:06 -0600 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: But you're ahead in so many other ways . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:23 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > > Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > > FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end > patterns of past Paul McEnroe; > 23 July 1989 p. 01A > "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a > "Come to Jesus" > meeting. " > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey > > and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the > > disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:25:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:25:23 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Don't patronize me. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you're ahead in so many other ways . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:23 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > > Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > > FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end > patterns of past Paul McEnroe; > 23 July 1989 p. 01A > "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a > "Come to Jesus" > meeting. " > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey > > and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the > > disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:05:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:09 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: A hearty thank you to anyone who can come up with pre-1981 printed exx. of the fig. phr."play in Peoria." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 18 01:31:21 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:31:21 -0600 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: <20050315155843.22209.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' (can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I > heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible > aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > > Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, > like "hit" ? > > Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > > JL > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:30:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:30:25 -0800 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. (Not *entirely* in jest this time.) JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' (can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I > heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible > aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > > Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, > like "hit" ? > > Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > > JL > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 01:35:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:35:07 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:09 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >A hearty thank you to anyone who can come up with pre-1981 printed exx. of >the fig. phr."play in Peoria." Attributed to John Ehrlichman in early Proquest cites: ----- New York Times Magazine, Aug 3, 1969, p. 59 When a newsman asked him why the President had made a certain move that had aroused criticism in Washington, Ehrlichman replied crisply: "Don't worry. It'll play in Peoria." ----- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 01:37:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:37:23 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <20050318010510.74067.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From ProQuest: ---------- _New York Times_, 3 Aug. 1969: p. SM6: ["Nixon's Inner Circle Meets"] <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:45:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: A hearty thank you, Ben and Doug ! The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark (1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "Will it play in Peoria?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From ProQuest: ---------- _New York Times_, 3 Aug. 1969: p. SM6: ["Nixon's Inner Circle Meets"] > ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 02:08:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:08:21 -0500 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was a little kid in St. Louis in the 'Forties, hunh-unh : unh-unh = white speech : black speech. White kids even reproduced the meaningless-to-children "aye-aye, sir" from war movies as "high-eye, sir." Of course, the "high-eye" could have been due to a reanalysis attempting to make something at least partially meaningful out of the otherwise totally meaningless. FWIW, in St. Louis, "unh-unh" can also be used to mean something like "Don't ask!" A. How things been goin' wit' you, man? B. Unh-unh! -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts >we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. > >(Not *entirely* in jest this time.) > >JL > >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Victoria Neufeldt >Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always >used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' >(can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a >pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I >> heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible >> aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >> Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, >> like "hit" ? >> >> Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >> JL >> > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Mar 18 02:28:15 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:28:15 -0600 Subject: Bartendresses In-Reply-To: <20050317222131.38483.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Don't forget "bustroid" > >I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." > >JL > > >"Mullins, Bill" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: Bartendresses >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, >waitresses, bartenders, etc. > > > > >>BARTENDRESSES >> >>>From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: >> >> >>Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches >> >>Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, >>as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote >>to say that she was in favor of calling females who work >>behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. >>Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with >>Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . >> >>First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're >>getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at >>Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found >>himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete >>Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, >>for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray >>full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the >>glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, >>"Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't >>think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring >>to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. >> >>Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >> >>>From Philip Duff, Holland: >> >>"I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either >>gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the >>profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, >>something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic >>countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, >>"barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly >>untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always >>seemed to indicate a trained professional." >> >>Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? >> >>Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, >>too. Here's what she had to say: >> >>"Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being >>called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If >>I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or >>outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men >>pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would >>Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a >>pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to >>"wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- >> >>And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and >>former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, >>"Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at >>Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that >>Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that >>one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that >>Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. >> >>A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she >>didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even >>"sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to >>call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before >>they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his >>e-mail "Jeffrey" >>suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when >>referring to female bartenders. >> >>The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a >>good unisex term that should be employed when referring to >>bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. >> >> >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 02:25:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:25:40 -0800 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've heard this sense as well, possibly only in AAVE. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was a little kid in St. Louis in the 'Forties, hunh-unh : unh-unh = white speech : black speech. White kids even reproduced the meaningless-to-children "aye-aye, sir" from war movies as "high-eye, sir." Of course, the "high-eye" could have been due to a reanalysis attempting to make something at least partially meaningful out of the otherwise totally meaningless. FWIW, in St. Louis, "unh-unh" can also be used to mean something like "Don't ask!" A. How things been goin' wit' you, man? B. Unh-unh! -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts >we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. > >(Not *entirely* in jest this time.) > >JL > >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Victoria Neufeldt >Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always >used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' >(can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a >pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I >> heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible >> aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >> Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, >> like "hit" ? >> >> Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >> JL >> > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 02:27:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:27:46 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard it and, fortunately, never used it, either. As a child, I would "read" words that I didn't know by breaking them apart into pieces that I could, to a certain extent, understand. As a consequence, I spent much time vaguely wondering what "[[sun][dries]]" were. Neither other kids nor even adults seemed to know. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Seems to me that "sundries" are frequently advertised on the windows >of general stores in old westerns. > >At any rate, I am very familiar with the term, even if I've never >heard it or used it. > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in >Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll >probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the >various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or >parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. > >FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for >sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the >plural. > >Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in >which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." > >-Wilson Gray > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: David Bowie >>Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>From: neil >>> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >> >>>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>>spoken register of BE. >> >>> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >>> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. >> >>By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. >> >>For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >>it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >>remember, heard [ugl].) >> >>And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >>morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* > >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > > > >-- > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 02:31:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:31:46 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that disbanded in Peoria." --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 02:43:18 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <51469.69.142.143.59.1111078313.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM 3/17/2005, you wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). MW3 shows both /gUk/ and /guk/ for "gook" in senses "native", "glop" (sense like "book gook" not shown). If I were to hypothesize that "gook" = "native" was usually /gUk/ before WW II, would there be any convincing contrary evidence available to put me in my place? -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:02:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:02:03 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: More hearty thanks, my man! This sort of cite is undoubtedly relevant. Two or three more would be very good. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "Will it play in Peoria?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that disbanded in Peoria." --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:08:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:08:43 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." "In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:51 AM 3/17/2005, you wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). MW3 shows both /gUk/ and /guk/ for "gook" in senses "native", "glop" (sense like "book gook" not shown). If I were to hypothesize that "gook" = "native" was usually /gUk/ before WW II, would there be any convincing contrary evidence available to put me in my place? -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 18 03:09:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:09:33 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:27 PM -0500 3/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've never heard it and, fortunately, never used it, either. As a >child, I would "read" words that I didn't know by breaking them apart >into pieces that I could, to a certain extent, understand. As a >consequence, I spent much time vaguely wondering what >"[[sun][dries]]" were. Neither other kids nor even adults seemed to >know. > >-Wilson And the reverse eggcorn is also possible: why do they charge so much for those sundried ['s^ndri:d] tomatoes anyway? Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 18 03:10:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:10:46 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <33870.69.142.143.59.1111113106.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >>(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >>with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." > >There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s >with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and >Kalamazoo. Lest we forget--Azusa and Cucamonga, those California joke towns. L > The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 >Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of >the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost >That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that >disbanded in Peoria." > > >--Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 03:17:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:17:13 -0500 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know that feeling only too well. Once, I was chatting with a younger colleague about cool places to hang out. I told him that there was a place in town so hip that, on its oldies jukebox, it had the original *black-American* version of "I'm Into Something Good" and not the years-later Brit cover by Herman & The Hermits and awaited his amazed reaction. When his only response was "Uh-huh," it suddenly struck me that this kid's parents probably didn't meet till a couple of years after the time period that I was discussing. Hence, he had no clue as to what I was babbling about. Now I let quarter-century-old children tell *me* what's fresh. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." > >It has come to this.... > >JL > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill >wrote: > >>ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. >> >>Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: >> >>FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >>of past >>Paul McEnroe; >>23 July 1989 p. 01A >>"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >>meeting. " > >Nexis has it from 1983: > >----- >Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? >Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 > >Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that >contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues >about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and >discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a >come-to-Jesus meeting here." >----- > >See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", >though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: > >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 > > >--Ben Zimmer > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 03:39:53 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:39:53 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050318030843.61871.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." Maybe. Is "goog" attested? >"In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I >heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't >believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever >prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? Here is some suggestive negative evidence. Words spelled "-ook" are usually pronounced with /U/. In fact we know that "gook" /gUk/ existed way back. If one desired to represent /guk/, never having seen it in print, would he write "gook"? Maybe. But somebody else would write "guke", probably, or at least [e.g., in "American Speech"] append a pronunciation note like <>. Where is "guke"? Where is the early pronunciation note? There may also have been free alternation [is that the right term?] like with "hoof" (/huf/ or /hUf/). -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 03:53:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:53:27 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection Message-ID: "Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles "Good-Time Charlie" Brown. This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:54:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:54:51 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Wilson, you gotta fight for your right to party ! If the 'snappers scorn you for living in the past, it's 'cause there ain't nothin' goin' on in the present ! Me, I'm going to put "The Flyin' Purple People Eater" on the hi-fi, watch "And God Created Woman" one more time, and finish up with a tape of Don Larson's perfect game.. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that feeling only too well. Once, I was chatting with a younger colleague about cool places to hang out. I told him that there was a place in town so hip that, on its oldies jukebox, it had the original *black-American* version of "I'm Into Something Good" and not the years-later Brit cover by Herman & The Hermits and awaited his amazed reaction. When his only response was "Uh-huh," it suddenly struck me that this kid's parents probably didn't meet till a couple of years after the time period that I was discussing. Hence, he had no clue as to what I was babbling about. Now I let quarter-century-old children tell *me* what's fresh. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." > >It has come to this.... > >JL > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill >wrote: > >>ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. >> >>Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: >> >>FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >>of past >>Paul McEnroe; >>23 July 1989 p. 01A >>"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >>meeting. " > >Nexis has it from 1983: > >----- >Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? >Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 > >Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that >contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues >about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and >discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a >come-to-Jesus meeting here." >----- > >See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", >though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: > >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 > > >--Ben Zimmer > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 04:21:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:21:01 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Goog" is attested in HDAS (s.v. "gook"). I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing militating against this spelling is that it could represent the sound in "cuke" cucumber.) How far back is "way back" for / gUk / ? "Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, right ? Do we know the usu. early pronun. of "gook" (blockhead) ? Do we even know its ety.? Cf. "goop" and "goopy," both fr. the same era, both pronun. solely with / u /, so far as I know. You'll have to search for early indications of the pronun. of "gook" (native). I don't know just when it first appeared in a standard dictionary, or whether a pronun. ever appeared in AS. The burden of proof is on the argument that for some unkn. reason the most freq. pronun. of "gook" (native) has swung from / gUk / to / guk / . Why should the proportions have been significantly different in the past ? And why should the spelling "gook" have been assoc. with the sound of "book," etc., rather than that of "spook" ? Am no longer sure of the technical nuances of "free variation." I don;t think it's strictly "free" if there's a regional pattern to be found. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." Maybe. Is "goog" attested? >"In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I >heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't >believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever >prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? Here is some suggestive negative evidence. Words spelled "-ook" are usually pronounced with /U/. In fact we know that "gook" /gUk/ existed way back. If one desired to represent /guk/, never having seen it in print, would he write "gook"? Maybe. But somebody else would write "guke", probably, or at least [e.g., in "American Speech"] append a pronunciation note like <[rhymes with "spook"]>>. Where is "guke"? Where is the early pronunciation note? There may also have been free alternation [is that the right term?] like with "hoof" (/huf/ or /hUf/). -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 04:22:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:22:50 -0800 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: More overcorrection ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles "Good-Time Charlie" Brown. This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 04:48:48 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:48:48 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of you may be familiar with the phrase, "Shuckin' 'n' jivin'." The first time that I heard this was on a record by the St. Louis bluesman, Jimmy McCracklin (and yes, his name is pronounced "Jimmy Mack Cracklin), some time in the '50's. He spoke the phrase as, "jes' a-shuckin' an' a-jivin'." Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the song, so I can't track down the exact date of publication. I also once heard someone say, "She was hidin' in the closet, jes' a-gigglin'!" -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>From Hee-Haw >Roy Clark: "I'm a-pickin' . . ." >Buck Owens: ". . . and I'm a-grinnin'". > >Also heard: Hootin' and a-hollerin'. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:00 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost >> daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college >> students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a >> freshman theme. >> >> JL >> >> Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The >> interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this >> phrase for emphasis. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Questioning in Seattle >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------- >> --- >> >> By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, >> or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on >> local radio this morning. >> Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >> Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and >> a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 05:11:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:11:10 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >JL I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." -Wilson Gray >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 05:40:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:40:19 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:02:03 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter >>wrote: >> >>>The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den >>>Bark (1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as >>>synonymous with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." >> >>There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s >>with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and >>Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 >>Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One >>of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The >>Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe >>that disbanded in Peoria." > >More hearty thanks, my man! This sort of cite is undoubtedly relevant. >Two or three more would be very good. Here are some references to the song from the 1904 play: ----- New York Times, Apr 13, 1904, p. 9 That one about the ghost of a troup that was stranded at Peoria had a weird fascination of its own and a lilt that lingers long in the memory. ----- Washington Post, Dec 25, 1904, p. A8 They backed away from the desk, took the center of the floor, and warbled to Mulcahy about the ghost of the man who was stranded with a troupe in Peoria. ----- New York Times, Aug 25, 1918, p. 32 For it developed that Miss Dickson and Martin Brown ... had acted together at one time in a one-night troupe that was stranded, not in Peoria, but Rat Portage, Mich. ----- New York Times, Mar 27, 1932, p. X3 The late Eddie Foy used to sing, in melancholy accents, a ditty in which he proclaimed hiimself to be "the ghost of a troupe that was stranded in Peoria." As a result that shy municipality practically sprang into comic significance akin to that enjoyed by such cultural centres as Kokomo, Kalamazoo and Ypsilanti. It was an unofficial "joke town." ----- Another Broadway play, "Lightnin'" (opened 1918), poked fun at Peoria in a racy courtroom scene... ----- Washington Post, Jan 29, 1918, p. 9 It offers a really delightful flirtation between the presiding judge of a Reno court and a buxom applicant for divorce who had married her vaudeville partner in Peoria at the end of a rainy week that got on her nerves. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1924, p. AA6 Why Peoria is "kidded" in "Lightnin';" town was chosen by Frank Bacon out of compliment to Robert G. Ingersoll. Many of those who have witnessed "Lightnin" may wonder just why it was that Frank Bacon and Winchell Smith happened to use the name of Peoria in the courtroom scene: for to those who have seen this quaintly amusing comedy, it will be recalled that in the Reno courtroom, Bessie Bacon, portraying a vaudeville actress, is being questioned in her divorce action and is asked: "Where were you married?" "Peoria," she answers. "I didn't get that," counters the judge. "Peoria," she repeats; and then with some hesitation adds, "It's a place." "Were you living in Peoria?" "I should say not! -- we were playing there. We were partners, doing a dancing act." "Then why did you marry him?" "That's hard to explain," she falters. "You see, we were in Peoria -- and we were partners -- and -- and -- it rained all week." Because of this bit of dialogue ... there are some who have imagined that Bacon or Smith played the town at some time during their theatrical journeyings, and as a result of some incident, disagreeable or otherwise, seized this occasion to take a fling at the town. ... At a dinner tendered the two Lightnin' Bills by the mayor and other prominent officials and citizens of Peoria, Mr. Bacon explained that no slam at the city was intended, but that, on the contrary, it was selected out of compliment to Mr. Ingersoll, its distinguished citizen. ----- The courtroom scene in "Lightnin'" was invoked when a contributor to the Chicago Tribune column "A Line O' Type Or Two" wanted to ridicule a pompous correspondent who signed off as "Wally from Peoria": ----- Chicago Tribune, Jun 23, 1924, p. 8 But is Peoria to Blame? R.H.L.: How amazingly old is Wally from Peoria, and how unutterably dull must be an intelligentsia that cannot appreciate Nietzsche and Dumas, James Stevens and Lewis Carroll, Lafcadio Hearn and The Duchess! ... I think it would be well to omit Peoria in one's travels. Pansy. ----- Chicago Tribune, Jul 31, 1926, p. 4 Hasn't Peoria Lived That Down Yet? Dick: Whereinell is this Peoria that this fellow Wally is so chesty about? The only time I recall hearing it mentioned was in Frank Bacon's play "Lightnin'" during the court scene when, in reply to the judge's query as to how she happened to marry, the weeping divorcee gave the reason: "Well, I had to spend the week in Peoria-- and it was raining!" Tobey, the Village Shyster. ----- Here are the Internet Broadway Database entries for the two plays in question: http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=5863 http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=8725 --Ben Zimmer From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Mar 18 09:10:02 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:10:02 -0000 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <20050318030203.8665.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't forget the Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Bierce. Last sentence of the entry under "Dullard": "The intellectual centre of the race is somewhere about Peoria, Illinois, but the New England Dullard is the most shockingly moral." Peoria's reputation is obviously of some antiquity. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 18 10:12:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:12:00 EST Subject: Camp Phrases (1861); City Nicknames (1889) Message-ID: A few notes before another day of my life wasted on parking tickets...OT: I had dinner at (Todd) English Is Italian (Third Avenue and 49th Street) last night. They kept bringing courses--$39 prix fixe. I had to tell the wait-person that I wasn't expecting my ex-wife, Kirstie Alley. ... LOS ANGELES TIMES--The 1969 additions appear to be Sept.-December. Not much movement here in about five months. Very frustrating. ... CHICAGO TRIBUNE--It looks like a few years in the 1850s and 1860s were added, and then it jumps to 1890. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _CAMP PHRASES._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=581847592&SrchMode=1&sid=56&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111138126&clientI d=65882) Chicago Tribune (1860-1872). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 11, 1861. p. 0_2 (1 page) ... CAMP PHRASES. An enterprising publisher might make money by getting up a camp dictionary, for the benefit of those who visit the army, and are mystified by the extraordinary words and phrases used. The word "arms" has been distorted into "umm," brought forcibly forth like the last groan of a dying cat; and in place of "march" we hear "utch." A tent is jocularly termed "the canvas," a sword is a "toad sticker," and any of the altered patterns of muskets are known as "howitzers." Mess beef is "salt horse," coffee is "boiled rye," vegetables are "cow feed," and butter "strong grease." "Bully" is the highest terms of commendation, while dissent is expressed in the remark, "I don't see it." Almost every regiment has its nickname, and few officers or privates receive their legal appellations or titles when spoken of in their absence. The Massachusetts men have christened their Governor, nor have his "military family" escaped their _nome-de-guerre_, one or two of which are decidedly uncomplimentary, through laugh-provoking. ... (HDAS has 1874 for "howitzer"--ed.) ... ... _NICKNAMES OF CITIES.; What You May Call a Place by When You Do Not Want to Call It by Its Name. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=41&did=563464792&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111139359& clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 25, 1889. p. 17 (1 page) ... Aberdeen, Scotland, Granite City. Alexandria, Egypt, Delta City. Akron, O., Summit CIty. Athens, Greece, City of the Violet Crown. Baltimore, Md., Monumental City. Birmingham, O., Bran Town. Boston, Mass., Puritan City; Modern Athens; Hub of the Universe; City of Notions; Athens of America; The Hub. Brooklyn, N.Y., City of Churches. Buffalo, N.Y., Queen City of the Lakes. Baalbec, Syria, City of the Sun. Cairo, Egypt, City of Victory. Cincinnati, O., Queen City; Porkoplis; Queen of the West; Paris of America. Chicago, Ill., Garden City. Cleveland, O., Forest City. Cork, Ire., Dirsh-ren City. Dayton, O., Gem City. Detroit, Mich., City of the Straits. Edinburgh, Scot., Maiden Town; Northern Athens; Modern Athens; Athens of the North. Gibraltar, Key of the Mediterranean. Hannibal, Mo., Bluff City. Havanna, Cuba, Pearl of the Antilles. Indianapolis, Ind., Railroad City. Jerusalem, Palestine, City of Peace; City of the Great King. Keokuk, Iowa, Gate City. Louisville, Ky., Falls City. Limerick, Ire., City of the Violated Treaty. Lowell, Mass., City of Spindles; Manchester of America. London, England, City of Masts; Modern Babylon. Lynchburg, Va., Hill City. Milan, Italy, Little Paris. Nashville, Tenn., City of Rocks. New Haven, Conn., City of Elms. New Orleans, La., Crescent City. New York, N.Y., Gotham; Empire City; Metropolitan City. Philadelphia, Penn., Quaker City; City of Brotherly Love; City of Homes. Pittsburg, Penn., Iron City; Smoky City; Birmingham of America. Portland, Me., Forest City. Paterson, N.J., Lyons of America. Rome, Italy, Eternal City; Nameless City; Queen of Cities; Seven Hilled City; Mistress of the World. Rochester, N.Y., Flour City. St. Louis, Mo., Mound City. San Francisco, Cal., Golden City. Salem, Mass., City of Peace. Salt Lake City, Utah, City of the Saints. Springfield, Ill., Flower City. Streator, Ill., City of the Woods. Sodom and Gomorrah, Cities of the Plain. Toledo, O., Corn City. Venice, Italy, Bride of the Sea. Washington, D.C., City of Magnificent Distances. Winnipeg, Man., Gate City of the Northwest. Xenia, O., Twine City. Zanesville, O., City of Natural Advantages. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 12:07:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:07:07 -0800 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be influenced by the surname "Ballard." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: More overcorrection ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >JL I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." -Wilson Gray >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 18 13:01:58 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:01:58 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a CT town/village near Willimantic): >Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >against a window in the >European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >made to Officer Flynn who brought him >before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >appealed from this decision and will await in >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 13:48:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:48:24 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I can remember when "the cooler" was a common slang term for gaol. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Refrigerator = jail? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a >CT town/village near Willimantic): > >>Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >>against a window in the >>European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >>made to Officer Flynn who brought him >>before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >>appealed from this decision and will await in > >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. > >Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 13:54:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:54:13 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Cf. syn. "cooler." JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Refrigerator = jail? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a CT town/village near Willimantic): >Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >against a window in the >European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >made to Officer Flynn who brought him >before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >appealed from this decision and will await in >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. Michael McKernan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Mar 18 13:58:49 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:58:49 +0000 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > >JL > > > And 'ice-box'. JG From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 18 14:07:13 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:07:13 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Cf. syn. "cooler." > >JL Synonymy rehabilitated! I assumed cooler would be too obvious to need mention. This'll teach me a lesson, I hope. With my usual mix of ignorance and curiousity, I wonder how common the specific use of refrigerator = jail has been, and when. Michael McKernan From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 14:21:15 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:21:15 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in the 19th century? --- Jonathon Green wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > > > >JL > > > > > > > And 'ice-box'. > > JG > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 14:29:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:29:56 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The OED implies yes. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in the 19th century? --- Jonathon Green wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > > > >JL > > > > > > > And 'ice-box'. > > JG > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 18 14:45:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other examples of jocular hypercorrection. dInIs >FWIW, I can remember when "the cooler" was a common slang term for gaol. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Michael McKernan >>Subject: Refrigerator = jail? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a >>CT town/village near Willimantic): >> >>>Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >>>against a window in the >>>European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >>>made to Officer Flynn who brought him >>>before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >>>appealed from this decision and will await in >> >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at >>the May term. >> >>Michael McKernan From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Mar 18 14:47:35 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:47:35 -0600 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: intenstinal fortitude On 3/18/05 8:45 AM, "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other > examples of jocular hypercorrection. > > dInIs > > From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Mar 18 15:34:54 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:34:54 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: Not to mention Podunk..and Chelm! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 18 16:01:49 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:01:49 -0500 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: Of course there is the old gag about the termite who sits down and asks, "Where is the bar tender?" And then, of course, there is the story of the cannibal who had a stomach ache who went to the doctor. The doctor asked him what he had recently eaten, and after he said a missionary, an anthropologist, a tourist and the woman who tended bar at the local pub the doctor told him that he knew his problem which was the bar bitch you ate. The common term in the Cleveland, Ohio area is server which like mail carrier solves the problem entirely since it is sex neutral as is bar tender. Many years ago in recognition of this problem I wrote two gags. I decided to call a mailbox a contradiction and a mailman a redundancy. For reasons which are beyond me these terms never took off but every once in awhile I attempt to introduce a slang term into my local dialect. My most successful has been rat killer for artificial sweetener on the ground that when given to rats it causes cancer. This one I think has the possibility of taking off if only a few of you will use it whenever you ask for artificial sweetener. Best, Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "paulzjoh" To: Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Bartendresses > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: Bartendresses > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Don't forget "bustroid" >> >>I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." >> >>JL >> >> >>"Mullins, Bill" wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail >>header ----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: Re: Bartendresses >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, >>waitresses, bartenders, etc. >> >> >> >> >>>BARTENDRESSES >>> >>>>From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: >>> >>> >>>Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches >>> >>>Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, >>>as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote >>>to say that she was in favor of calling females who work >>>behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. >>>Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with >>>Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . >>> >>>First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're >>>getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at >>>Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found >>>himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete >>>Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, >>>for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray >>>full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the >>>glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, >>>"Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't >>>think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring >>>to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. >>> >>>Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >>> >>>>From Philip Duff, Holland: >>> >>>"I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either >>>gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the >>>profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, >>>something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic >>>countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, >>>"barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly >>>untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always >>>seemed to indicate a trained professional." >>> >>>Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? >>> >>>Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, >>>too. Here's what she had to say: >>> >>>"Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being >>>called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If >>>I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or >>>outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men >>>pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would >>>Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a >>>pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to >>>"wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- >>> >>>And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and >>>former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, >>>"Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at >>>Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that >>>Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that >>>one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that >>>Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. >>> >>>A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she >>>didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even >>>"sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to >>>call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before >>>they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his >>>e-mail "Jeffrey" >>>suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when >>>referring to female bartenders. >>> >>>The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a >>>good unisex term that should be employed when referring to >>>bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. >>> >>> >>> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 18 16:12:09 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:09 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Which brings up the old story about Dizzy Dean who was once reputed to have said when he broadcast Cardinal games something like, "The reason that ... is so good is that he has guts. Now I know that some of you school marms out there may not like my use of the word 'guts' so I will put it in other terms. The reason ... is so good is because he has testicle fortitude." Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gordon" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Matthew Gordon > Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > intenstinal fortitude > > > On 3/18/05 8:45 AM, "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >> Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other >> examples of jocular hypercorrection. >> >> dInIs >> >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 19:06:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:06:39 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmm. That's a clear possibility in my case, too. At the time when I opened foot and inserted mouth, Hank *Ballard* & The Midnighters, who popularized "work" as a slang synonym for "engage in sexual intercourse," were one of the top R&B singing groups. You never can tell, I guess. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. >I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be >influenced by the surname "Ballard." > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: More overcorrection >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. >> >>JL > >I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) > >But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is >otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even >things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." > >-Wilson Gray > >>Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: More overcorrection >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >>"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. >> >>This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >>writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >>Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >>my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 19:11:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Dennis Preston: > >Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other >examples of jocular hypercorrection. Matthew Gordon: > > intenstinal fortitude Page Stephens: > >Which brings up the old story about Dizzy Dean who was once reputed to >have said when he broadcast Cardinal games something like, "The reason >that ... is so good is that he has guts. Now I know that some of you >school marms out there may not like my use of the word 'guts' so I will >put it in other terms. The reason ... is so good is because he has >testicle fortitude." There was a long thread here recently on intestinal/testicular fortitude , but the Dizzy Dean anecdote never came up. Dickson's Baseball Dictionary has the anecdote (with "testicle fortitude"), and it's mentioned here: http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/features/experts/09_20_00.stm --Ben Zimmer From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 20:01:52 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:01:52 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Actually, I should have known this. I was thinking too small. Railroad cars cooled by ice, "iceboxes on wheels", were known as refigerator cars at least as far back as the 1850's. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The OED implies yes. > > JL > > James Smith wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in > the > 19th century? James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 18 20:07:27 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:07:27 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: At the Straight Dope, someone asked recently about the tip=T.I.P. (to insure promptness) origin. We took care of that one easily. But, as an aside, I found 10 September 1895 _Los Angeles Times_ pg 6 >>A recently-published article on the derivation of the word "fad" speaks of it as being of Welsh origin, giving "ffedd" as the root word. A correspondent of the New York Tribune writes on the subject: The word 'fad' is a manufactured word, not given by Worcester. It has been in use only a short time, comparatively, and, while it may be derived from the Welsh, it is more probable that it is made from the initial letters of the words 'for a day.' The word 'tip' orginated, it is said, in that way. The story goes that in an old-time English tavern a receptacle for small coin was placed in a conspicuous place over which appeared the legend, 'to insure promptness.' Whatever was placed in the box was given to the servants. Other taverns followed the example, and soon the three words were written, "T.I.P.," everybody knowing what they indicated. Then the punctuation marks were dropped, and the word 'tip' was born. 'Fad' and 'tip' are of the same class and kind."<< Are there earlier print evidences of false acronymic origins? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 20:33:11 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:11 -0500 Subject: "Rendering" of suspects Message-ID: Back in Oct. 2002, the "rendition" of terrorism suspects first came up on the list: ----- http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210C&L=ads-l&P=R7146 Thomas Joyce: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Larry Horn: >I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to >"render", but this one doesn't (yet). Thomas Joyce: >I suppose it must be so. But if anybody starts talking about >rendering a suspect, I will have visions of boiling vats. ----- Well, the "rendering" of suspects has already entered public discourse, and it should probably receive some WOTY consideration (at least for euphemism of the year): ----- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050317-4.html Press Briefing by Scott McClellan, March 17, 2005 Q Are these reports wrong, or does he not believe that there's torture going on in these countries where these prisoners are being rendered back to? MR. McCLELLAN: When people are rendered to another country, we seek assurances that they won't be tortured. When we return known terrorists to their countries of origin, or we render people to countries, we want to have assurances that they're not going to be tortured, because that's a value that we hold very dearly. ... But we do take very seriously what our obligations are, and we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ... Q Scott, on renditions, has the United States ever rendered prisoners to countries other than their country of origin? MR. McCLELLAN: Ken, I'm not going to get into talking about any specific matters, and that would be getting into talking about specific matters. But I think I addressed that question earlier when I said that we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ----- A swing through Nexis suggests that "rendering" has been used by the intelligence community at least since 9/11, though it took some investigative reporting by the Washington Post in 2002 and 2004 for the term to become widely known. The cites below trace a shift in usage: "render (someone) to justice" > "render (someone) to a third country" > "render (someone)". ----- Boston Globe, October 7, 2001, p. A1 "These are not abductions, these are renditions," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "If they are wanted by foreign governments and there is concern that they are involved in terrorist activities, the idea is to render them to justice." ----- Washington Post, March 11, 2002, p. A1 Between 1993 and 1999, terrorism suspects also were rendered to the United States from Nigeria, the Philippines, Kenya and South Africa in operations acknowledged by U.S. officials. ... Even when local intelligence agents are involved, diplomats said it is preferable to render a suspect secretly because it prevents lengthy court battles and minimizes publicity that could tip off the detainee's associates. Rendering suspects to a third country, particularly Muslim nations such as Egypt or Jordan, also helps to defuse domestic political concerns in predominantly Muslim nations such as Indonesia, the diplomats said. ----- Washington Post, December 26, 2002, p. A1 Those who cooperate are rewarded with creature comforts, interrogators whose methods include feigned friendship, respect, cultural sensitivity and, in some cases, money. Some who do not cooperate are turned over -- "rendered," in official parlance -- to foreign intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human rights organizations. ... Some officials estimated that fewer than 100 captives have been rendered to third countries. ... The CIA's participation in the interrogation of rendered terrorist suspects varies from country to country. ----- Columbus Dispatch (Ohio), January 19, 2003, p. 4C In the CIA's euphemistic parlance, captives are "rendered" into foreign hands, and these "extraordinary renditions" are said to give the CIA "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspects. ----- Washington Post, July 29, 2004, p. A8 The exact number of people "rendered" or moved to foreign countries with U.S. assistance is unknown, but two cases have received widespread publicity. ----- Washington Post, December 27, 2004, p. A1 Ahmed Agiza was convicted by Egypt's Supreme Military Court of terrorism-related charges; Muhammad Zery was set free. Both say they were tortured while in Egyptian custody. Sweden has opened an investigation into the decision to allow them to be rendered. ----- Los Angeles Times, January 13, 2005, p. 1 "It's a growth industry," said a recently retired CIA clandestine officer who worked on several "renditions" in the Arab world. "We rendered a lot of people to Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis in particular.... Ultimately, the agency just wants these people to disappear forever." ----- New York Times, February 11, 2005, p. 25 As Ms. Mayer pointed out: "Terrorism suspects in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East have often been abducted by hooded or masked American agents, then forced onto a Gulfstream V jet, like the one described by Arar. ... Upon arriving in foreign countries, rendered suspects often vanish. Detainees are not provided with lawyers, and many families are not informed of their whereabouts." ----- New York Times, February 18, 2005, p. 27 Rendition most commonly refers to the extrajudicial transfer of individuals from a foreign country to the United States for the purpose of answering criminal charges. Think, for example, of a drug kingpin who is abducted in Colombia and brought to the U.S. to stand trial for trafficking. The defendant is said to have been "rendered" to justice in the U.S. ----- Boston Globe, March 2, 2005, A1 A State Department translator testified on Jan. 13 that US officials had tried to pressure the country's former president into skipping a trial and "rendering" Bashir to US officials, perhaps to be sent to a third country where torture is allowed. ----- New York Times, March 6, 2005 p. 1 In an interview, the senior official defended renditions as one among several important tools in counterterrorism efforts. "The intelligence obtained by those rendered, detained and interrogated have disrupted terrorist operations," the official said. "It has saved lives in the United States and abroad, and it has resulted in the capture of other terrorists." ----- Washington Post, March 9, 2005, A21 Rendition is the CIA's antiseptic term for its practice of sending captured terrorist suspects to other countries for interrogation. Because some of those countries torture prisoners -- and because some of the suspected terrorists "rendered" by the CIA say they were in fact tortured -- the debate has tended to lump rendition and torture together. ----- Boston Globe, March 12, 2005, p. A11 The clandestine nature of "torture outsourcing" makes it difficult to know the total numbers of those rendered by the Bush administration. ----- Washington Post, March 17, 2005, A1 Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales said in an interview last week that, once a transfer occurs, "we can't fully control what that country might do. We obviously expect a country to whom we have rendered a detainee to comply with their representations to us. If you're asking me 'Does a country always comply?,' I don't have an answer to that." ----- --Ben Zimmer From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 18 21:23:03 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:23:03 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition Message-ID: Two responses to my observation of *change up*: ================= I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be used with the same meaning in your example? ================= Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, what do they know?) Peter Mc. ================= *Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, in fact, when I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the (interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* 'change it into a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for clarification, though. To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* could be used for money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. *Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, it's not in my dialect. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 22:02:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:02:10 -0800 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking acronymically as early as 1895. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the Straight Dope, someone asked recently about the tip=3DT.I.P. (to = insure promptness) origin. We took care of that one easily. But, as an = aside, I found=20 10 September 1895 _Los Angeles Times_ pg 6 >>A recently-published article on the derivation of the word "fad" = speaks of it as being of Welsh origin, giving "ffedd" as the root word. = A correspondent of the New York Tribune writes on the subject: The word = 'fad' is a manufactured word, not given by Worcester. It has been in = use only a short time, comparatively, and, while it may be derived from = the Welsh, it is more probable that it is made from the initial letters = of the words 'for a day.' The word 'tip' orginated, it is said, in that = way. The story goes that in an old-time English tavern a receptacle for = small coin was placed in a conspicuous place over which appeared the = legend, 'to insure promptness.' Whatever was placed in the box was = given to the servants. Other taverns followed the example, and soon the = three words were written, "T.I.P.," everybody knowing what they = indicated. Then the punctuation marks were dropped, and the word 'tip' = was born. 'Fad' and 'tip' are of the same class and kind."<< Are there earlier print evidences of false acronymic origins?=20 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Mar 18 22:43:29 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:43:29 -0600 Subject: [SLANG:53] Panna Message-ID: This may or may not help. I did some googling and found that panna is not only a "nutmeg" but also soccer as played on city squares and involving individual tricks/stunts. The more skill in these stunts, the greater the respect won. Now, there's a famous Thai stuntman named Panna Rittikrai, and I suppose that the youngsters who see him on film were inspired to take his name as symbolizing a supreme stunt--humiliating the opponent by dribbling the ball through his legs. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: slang at leicester.ac.uk on behalf of Paul Heacock > Reply To: slang at leicester.ac.uk > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:06 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list SLANG > Subject: [SLANG:53] Re: Panna > > I asked a soccer-savvy American friend if he's ever heard of the term > "panna," and he hadn't. When I told him what it meant, he said, "Oh, a > nutmeg." He thought panna sounded Spanish or Italian, and said he'd ask > some Spanish-speaking footballers about it. I'll report back if I hear > anything more. > > Cheers > Paul > > Paul Heacock > ELT Electronic Publishing & Publishing Systems Manager > Cambridge University Press > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 00:43:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <20050318220210.68932.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >acronymically as early as 1895. I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far behind? -- Doug Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 00:48:54 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:54 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 /-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") has a /k/. Of the 16 I can think of with the vowel of "good," 11 have a /k/. That being so, I wonder why it never occurred to me that "gook" (a word only known to me as an ethnic slur from the VietNam days) would be pronounced as anything but /guk/, like "spook." A. Murie From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 19 01:00:34 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:00:34 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: Sorry, Doug. I read your previous message, but didn't include it. sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious > acronym > much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): If there > are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far behind? > > -- Doug Wilson > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 01:25:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:25:35 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps Message-ID: Get this: "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:05:28 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:05:28 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >has a /k/. How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is certainly so analyzable. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 02:19:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:19:10 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >has a /k/. How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is certainly so analyzable. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:39:20 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:39:20 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition In-Reply-To: <1111180983.423b46b7ae474@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. The announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say something like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what is a change up and how might it fit into this discussion? JCS Damien Hall writes: > Two responses to my observation of *change up*: > > ================= > > I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting > the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't > work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming > particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be > used with the same meaning in your example? > > ================= > > Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I > usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in > some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a > black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, > what do they know?) > > Peter Mc. > > ================= > > *Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, in fact, when > I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the > (interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* 'change it into > a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for > clarification, though. > > To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* could be used for > money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the > person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. > *Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, it's not in my > dialect. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:45:11 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:45:11 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Nee=22_=3D?= or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: <20050319012535.29749.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about this as a meaning shift path: nee ('formerly', as in the maiden or previously married name of a woman) > interpreted as 'also known as' (aka) > extended to 'perhaps'? JCS Jonathan Lighter writes: > Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it > was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young > attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 02:57:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:57:59 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My thinking exactly. It would be interesting to know how widespread this is. WE can hope that it's a personal quirk, though. So far. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22Nee=22_=3D?= or; or perhaps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about this as a meaning shift path: nee ('formerly', as in the maiden or previously married name of a woman) > interpreted as 'also known as' (aka) > extended to 'perhaps'? JCS Jonathan Lighter writes: > Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it > was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young > attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Sat Mar 19 03:32:10 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:32:10 -0500 Subject: social interaction Message-ID: Any idea when the term "social interaction" came into use? A fellow writer wants to use it in a dialog taking place in the 1930s but others think it wasn't yet in use and is a more recent term. Kathy Seal ---- Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More overcorrection > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hmm. That's a clear possibility in my case, too. At the time when I > opened foot and inserted mouth, Hank *Ballard* & The Midnighters, who > popularized "work" as a slang synonym for "engage in sexual > intercourse," were one of the top R&B singing groups. You never can > tell, I guess. > > -Wilson > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. > >I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be > >influenced by the surname "Ballard." > > > >JL > > > >Wilson Gray wrote: > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender: American Dialect Society > >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >>Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >> > >>JL > > > >I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) > > > >But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is > >otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even > >things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." > > > >-Wilson Gray > > > >>Wilson Gray wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender: American Dialect Society > >>Poster: Wilson Gray > >>Subject: More overcorrection > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles > >>"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >> > >>This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in > >>writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of > >>Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept > >>my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >> > >>-Wilson Gray > >> > >> > >>--------------------------------- > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 03:51:59 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:51:59 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050319021910.52821.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:19 PM -0800 3/18/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? I'm claiming "Mook" < "Mookie", not vice versa, but to address the question-- A whole bunch of Mets fans, especially immediately after his (Mookie Wilson's) role in the 1986 Series win (especially hitting that ground ball that rolled through Buckner's legs). A basketball player named Mookie Blaylock, formerly from the U. of Oklahoma and various NBA teams, would also be called "Mook" on occasion, if memory serves. >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 03:57:18 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:57:18 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 PM -0500 3/18/05, James C Stalker wrote: >I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. The >announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say something >like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what is a change up >and how might it fit into this discussion? > A slow pitch, released with the same motion as a faster pitch. Crucially, the batter is presumed to be expecting a fastball, and the pitcher "changes up" on him. You color analysts can decide how it fits into the discussion, I'm just the play-by-play guy. Larry > >Damien Hall writes: > >>Two responses to my observation of *change up*: >> >>================= >> >>I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting >>the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't >>work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming >>particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be >>used with the same meaning in your example? >> >>================= >> >>Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I >>usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in >>some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a >>black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, >>what do they know?) >> >>Peter Mc. >> >>================= >> >>*Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, >>in fact, when >>I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the >>(interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* >>'change it into >>a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for >>clarification, though. >> >>To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* >>could be used for >>money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the >>person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. >>*Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, >>it's not in my >>dialect. >> >>Damien Hall >>University of Pennsylvania >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 04:04:57 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~ Yeah, forgot that one. There's also a character named Sookie that I see allusions to on the mystery lit list that I assume is a /u/. I'm sure there are others, too (stook, perhaps, though I think that goes both ways). It wasn't so much the paucity of /k/s in the the FOOD list as the preponderance of /k/s in the GOOD list that surprised me. A From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 19 04:05:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:05:07 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've simply forgotten whatever he had to say. And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether anyone salutes, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 19 04:09:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:09:51 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry "Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb." -Wilson From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 04:10:19 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:10:19 -0500 Subject: Pahk the cah in Hahvuhd Yahd (1976); Joe College 1934) Message-ID: More from Harvard. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=496464 Published on Wednesday, April 26, 1978 You Can't Pahk Yah Cah In Hahvahd Yahd, But... Harvard BHCU EXPIRES AUG. 31, 1978 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=496413 Published on Monday, October 31, 1977 Them Ol' Walking Blues Union Dues By John Sayles Little, Brown, $9.95, 385 pp. (...) But lest you think this is a story of radical baiting in Cambridge, circa 1969--which is easy enough to do--it's not. Sayles has an astoundingly accurate ear for speech, in this case the speech of 20-year old Americans in 1969 trying to sound like Lenin in Zurich in 1917. Skillfully interwoven with the story of Hunter McNatt's search for his son are also the stories of people who run across one or the other along the way, and their speech is wonderfully correct. Vinny and Dom, his Boston cops, are a little too pat ("Pahk the cah in Hahvahd Yahd") but they still sound, well, like Boston cops. Sayles also captures the peculiar accents of Appalachia, especially the banter of men who work hard, as when one tells another, "You're so ugly you have to tie a pork chop around your neck just to git the dawg to play with you." http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=111863 Published on Monday, November 15, 1976 Lies My Father Told Me Setting the Record Straight On Age-Olde Harvard Myths (...) PAHK THE CAAH IN HAHVAHD YAHD--This little ditty mimicking the nuances of the Boston accent is based upon a mistaken notion that few non-Harvard people realize. Any vehicle parked in the Yard for an extended period of time--as a great many Harvard students can attest--will be towed away. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=498880 Published on Friday, January 19, 1940 HAWVUHD - HAVUHD - HEVEHD MIXTURE MAKES YAHD ACCENT No writer attributed "There are no less than three pronunciations of 'the broad A'," Frederick C. Packard, associate professor of English, made public this week in a classification of "the Harvard accent." There are three types of accents, Packard disclosed. First there is the broad A, or Hawvuhd group, comprising Back Bay and Park Avenue youths with a prep school background. Second is the flatter A, or Hahvuhd, group, made up of Greater Boston boys of Irish-American stock. The third, a "namby-pamby"' Hehvehd group is composed of Middle Western youths who believe that this is the correct pronunciation before they ever come within earshot of the Memorial Hall bells. The true Harvard accent is a combination of these three, according to Packard. "It does not originate here but is brought in by undergraduates." The "Yahd" accent is not unpleasant as is claimed, he asserted. "It's all right to say 'cawn't' and 'bawth' if it is done in a nice, musical tone," he stated. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=451637 Published on Friday, June 08, 1934 THE PRESS A Few Ralls (...) Yale snobbishness is not necessarily an attitude of rankling superiority. It is the snobbishness of indifference. Members of small and congenial groups, whether they be actually superior or inferior, are satisfied to stay within those groups. Any effort to break those bounds by forced congeniality to outsiders is dubbed "Joe College." (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: Three Gloucester plays / Author(s): Horovitz, Israel. Publication: Garden City, NY : Fireside Theatre, Year: 1992 Description: viii, 279 p., [8] p. of plates : ports. ; 22 cm. Language: English Contents: Park your car in Harvard Yard -- Henry Lumper -- North Shore fish. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 04:21:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:21:16 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0500 3/18/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>>has a /k/. >> >>How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >>clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >>certainly so analyzable. >> >>Larry > >"Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb." > Exactly. Edd (double-D) Byrnes, Route 66. To my knowledge, he was never "Kook", although he may have been by truncation, when the other guys (what were their names?) were in a hurry. But lower-case "kook", for a crazy or just eccentric type, was definitely widespread in the 60's. First OED cite: 1960 Daily Mail 22 Aug. 4/5 A kook, Daddy-O, is a screwball who is 'gone' farther than most. Daddy-O indeed. Real gone, man. Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 04:25:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:25:59 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:57:18 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:39 PM -0500 3/18/05, James C Stalker wrote: >>I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. >>The announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say >>something like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what >>is a change up and how might it fit into this discussion? >> >A slow pitch, released with the same motion as a faster pitch. >Crucially, the batter is presumed to be expecting a fastball, and the >pitcher "changes up" on him. You color analysts can decide how it >fits into the discussion, I'm just the play-by-play guy. Baseball has many expressions for such off-speed pitches-- see this post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412A&L=ads-l&P=R2187 As far as I can tell, "change-up" originated in the expression "change of pace", a term for a pitcher's mixture of fast and slow pitches. So a pitcher would "change it up" (i.e., change the pace) with a slower pitch, and this was eventually nominalized as "change-up". The phrasal verb "change (it) up" in this context is similar to "mix (it) up" or "switch (it) up", in the sense of skillfully varying one's approach to keep opponents off-balanced or confused. These are common expressions in various sports (not to mention in hiphop usage when a rapper is bragging about lyrical agility). --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 04:40:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050318042101.34236.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Goog" is attested in HDAS (s.v. "gook"). A headword itself, I see. OK. >I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing militating >against this spelling is that it could represent the sound in "cuke" cucumber.) I haven't found "guke". >How far back is "way back" for / gUk / ? Ben Zimmer recently posted "golfing gooks" rhymed with "brooks" from 1917. >"Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely >factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, right ? We've seen two examples on this list as Ben Zimmer recently recalled: only one was in audio so that the pronunciation is sure, but I think a rhyme is likely for the printed one. >Do we know the usu. early pronun. of "gook" (blockhead) ? I don't think so, but we know that it occurred once in 1917 as /gUk/ (see above). >Do we even know its ety.? Not for sure AFAIK. >You'll have to search for early indications of the pronun. of "gook" >(native). I don't know just when it first appeared in a standard >dictionary, or whether a pronun. ever appeared in AS. I've searched a little. Early sightings in AS were devoid of pronunciation help. EB (1958) shows /guk/, MW3 shows both, my older books don't show it at all. I believe there was a big surge in the frequency and familiarity of the word around the time of the Korean War (please correct me if necessary). >The burden of proof is on the argument that for some unkn. reason the most >freq. pronun. of "gook" (native) has swung from / gUk / to / guk / . Why >should the proportions have been significantly different in the past? If it is asserted that the modern ratio is, say, 10:1 in favor of /guk/, then there is no reason AFAIK a priori to assume a change in the ratio (although also no reason to exclude the possibility). If it is asserted that the current ratio is, say, 100:1 (and I wouldn't find this unbelievable) then the fact that both pronunciations appear in MW suggests to me (doesn't prove though) that the ratio may have been different 50 years ago. Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) "gook" being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) Korean "mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and taken as a folk-etymon, ca. 1950. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:23:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:23:02 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >>acronymically as early as 1895. > >I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious >acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): > >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 > >If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far >behind? The acronymic interpretation of "hep" as the Crusader's cry "Hierosolyma est perdita" ("Jerusalem is lost") is an interesting case -- the OED dates it to 1839, twenty years after the "Hep! Hep! riots" against Jews in Hamburg, Frankfurt, and other German cities. ----- hep, int. [Said to be f. the initials of Hierosolyma Est Perdita; or, the cry of a goatherd.] Usu. hep, hep! The cry of those who persecuted Jews in the 19th century. Also attrib. 1839 Penny Cycl. XIII. 122/1 They [sc. the Jews] were massacred at the cry of 'Hep', 'Hep', the initials of the words 'Hierosolyma est perdita'. ----- Cecil Adams discusses this and finds it much more likely that "hep" came from the herder's cry. But the OED's 1839 cite shows that the acronymic explanation was being given not too long after the German riots. Perhaps there were anti-Semitic tracts floating around Germany at the time of the riots giving the Crusader story, thus popularizing the "Hep!" cry. Or perhaps it was simply explained this way after the fact by observers trying to link the riots to earlier expressions of anti-Semitism. An earlier backronym in English is "cabal", linked to the ministerial cabinet of Charles II, c. 1670: Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, Lauderdale. Though "cabal" derives from Hebrew "Kabbalah", it came to mean any kind of suspiciously secret matter, and by the mid-17th Century it had already developed a secondary meaning of "a small body of persons engaged in secret or private machination or intrigue" (see OED defs. 3-6). The coincidence of the names in the CABAL Cabinet cemented this meaning as the primary one. I'm not sure, though, of the extent to which the ministerial acronym was later presumed to have been the *source* of the word (rather than simply reinforcing one sense of the word). Here's a Making of America cite from 1876 suggesting that the acronymic explanation was taken seriously: ----- http://tinyurl.com/6shg4 Lieber, Francis. _Manual of political ethics_, 1876. The word cabal, as is well known, is now generally believed, according to Hume, ch. 65, to have been composed of the letters with which the names of the five dangerous ministers of the time began,-- namely, Clifford, Ashley, Buckingham, Arlington, and Lauderdale. (Burnet, Own Times, an. 1672.) Others derive it from the Hebrew Cabala, denoting a mysterious philosophy brought from Egypt. [It is certain that cabal was used to denote a faction or junto before the time of Charles II. It was borrowed from the French, who derived it from Cabala.] ----- Speaking of the Kabbalah, there are various Kabbalistic backronyms used as a kind of mystical folk etymology. For instance, the word PARDES ('paradise, garden') is expanded so that each consonant represents a level of scriptural interpretation: Peshat (literal meaning), Remez (allegorical meaning), Derasha (Talmudic interpretation), and Sod (mystical meaning). This acronymic explanation first appeared in the 13th century in the works of Moses ben Shem Tov (author of the Zohar). Similarly, early Christians made the Greek word for 'fish', ICHTHUS, stand for "Iesous CHristos THeou Uios Soter" (Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior). Based on this backronym, the fish has been used as a symbol for Christ since at least the 2nd century (and now can be seen affixed to the back of SUVs across middle America.) And going back even further is Plato's Cratylus, but I'll stop for now... --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:38:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:06 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <37037.69.142.143.59.1111209782.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 12:23 AM -0500 3/19/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >>>Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >>>acronymically as early as 1895. >> >>I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious >>acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): >> >>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 >> >>If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far >>behind? > >The acronymic interpretation of "hep" as the Crusader's cry "Hierosolyma >est perdita" ("Jerusalem is lost") is an interesting case -- the OED dates >it to 1839, twenty years after the "Hep! Hep! riots" against Jews in >Hamburg, Frankfurt, and other German cities. Well, there were some actual acronyms around before then in religious contexts. The oldest I know of is the famous "I-CH-TH-Y-S" for Jesus Christ/fish, immortalized on bumpers to this day. Then there are all those Hebrew ones, KATZ, RAMBAM, TANACH, etc. (I'm sure Mark knows this stuff better than I do.) So the "HEP" story is not inconceivable, at least as something plausibly believed at the time, if not actually true. larry >----- >hep, int. >[Said to be f. the initials of Hierosolyma Est Perdita; >or, the cry of a goatherd.] > >Usu. hep, hep! The cry of those who persecuted Jews in the 19th century. >Also attrib. > >1839 Penny Cycl. XIII. 122/1 They [sc. the Jews] were massacred at the cry >of 'Hep', 'Hep', the initials of the words 'Hierosolyma est perdita'. >----- > >Cecil Adams discusses >this and finds it much more likely that "hep" came from the herder's cry. >But the OED's 1839 cite shows that the acronymic explanation was being >given not too long after the German riots. Perhaps there were >anti-Semitic tracts floating around Germany at the time of the riots >giving the Crusader story, thus popularizing the "Hep!" cry. Or perhaps >it was simply explained this way after the fact by observers trying to >link the riots to earlier expressions of anti-Semitism. > >An earlier backronym in English is "cabal", linked to the ministerial >cabinet of Charles II, c. 1670: Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, >Lauderdale. Though "cabal" derives from Hebrew "Kabbalah", it came to >mean any kind of suspiciously secret matter, and by the mid-17th Century >it had already developed a secondary meaning of "a small body of persons >engaged in secret or private machination or intrigue" (see OED defs. 3-6). > The coincidence of the names in the CABAL Cabinet cemented this meaning >as the primary one. > >I'm not sure, though, of the extent to which the ministerial acronym was >later presumed to have been the *source* of the word (rather than simply >reinforcing one sense of the word). Here's a Making of America cite from >1876 suggesting that the acronymic explanation was taken seriously: > >----- >http://tinyurl.com/6shg4 >Lieber, Francis. _Manual of political ethics_, 1876. >The word cabal, as is well known, is now generally believed, according to >Hume, ch. 65, to have been composed of the letters with which the names of >the five dangerous ministers of the time began,-- namely, Clifford, >Ashley, Buckingham, Arlington, and Lauderdale. (Burnet, Own Times, an. >1672.) Others derive it from the Hebrew Cabala, denoting a mysterious >philosophy brought from Egypt. [It is certain that cabal was used to >denote a faction or junto before the time of Charles II. It was borrowed >from the French, who derived it from Cabala.] >----- > >Speaking of the Kabbalah, there are various Kabbalistic backronyms used as >a kind of mystical folk etymology. For instance, the word PARDES >('paradise, garden') is expanded so that each consonant represents a level >of scriptural interpretation: Peshat (literal meaning), Remez (allegorical >meaning), Derasha (Talmudic interpretation), and Sod (mystical meaning). >This acronymic explanation first appeared in the 13th century in the works >of Moses ben Shem Tov (author of the Zohar). > >Similarly, early Christians made the Greek word for 'fish', ICHTHUS, stand >for "Iesous CHristos THeou Uios Soter" (Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior). >Based on this backronym, the fish has been used as a symbol for Christ >since at least the 2nd century (and now can be seen affixed to the back of >SUVs across middle America.) > >And going back even further is Plato's Cratylus, but I'll stop for now... > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:53:20 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:53:20 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing >>militating against this spelling is that it could represent the sound >>in "cuke" cucumber.) > >I haven't found "guke". Interestingly, though, "kook" (discussed elsethread) has the variant "kuke", attested in HDAS from 1956, earlier than the "kook" spelling (though both are preceded by "cuck", short for "cuckoo"). >>"Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely >>factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, >>right ? > >We've seen two examples on this list as Ben Zimmer recently recalled: >only one was in audio so that the pronunciation is sure, but I think a >rhyme is likely for the printed one. Here are two cites in addition to the two from 1952 already given: ----- Washington Post, Mar 26, 1953, p. 40/3 Book gook: Studious person. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jul 29, 1955, p. II5/6 Our panel of teen-age experts today consists of two coolies (girls), two frantic cats (boys) and one book gook (formerly a square but now known as a cube). ----- >If it is asserted that the modern ratio is, say, 10:1 in favor of /guk/, >then there is no reason AFAIK a priori to assume a change in the ratio >(although also no reason to exclude the possibility). If it is asserted >that the current ratio is, say, 100:1 (and I wouldn't find this >unbelievable) then the fact that both pronunciations appear in MW suggests >to me (doesn't prove though) that the ratio may have been different 50 >years ago. > >Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an >identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) "gook" >being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) Korean >"mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and taken as a >folk-etymon, ca. 1950. Should we throw "kook" in the mix? It's suggestive that "gook" apparently derives from "goo-goo" and "kook" from "cuckoo"/"koo-koo". Also, I found a Washington Post letter to the editor from 1950 deriving "gook" from "goo-goo", but in the "goo-goo eyes" sense: ----- Washington Post, Sep 14, 1950, p. 10 "Gook" is derived from "goo goo" eyes, a derogatory term for Asiatics. The term no doubt isn't helping us "win friends and influence people." This is especially true of the South Koreans. ... Joseph Regal. Boston, Mass. [Editor's Note: Yet the South Koreans seem to have adopted the word and are applying it to the North Koreans!] ----- The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 06:18:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:18:04 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:53:20 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an >>identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) >>"gook" being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) >>Korean "mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and >>taken as a folk-etymon, ca. 1950. > >Should we throw "kook" in the mix? It's suggestive that "gook" >apparently derives from "goo-goo" and "kook" from "cuckoo"/"koo-koo". > >Also, I found a Washington Post letter to the editor from 1950 deriving >"gook" from "goo-goo", but in the "goo-goo eyes" sense: > >----- >Washington Post, Sep 14, 1950, p. 10 >"Gook" is derived from "goo goo" eyes, a derogatory term for Asiatics. >The term no doubt isn't helping us "win friends and influence people." >This is especially true of the South Koreans. ... >Joseph Regal. Boston, Mass. >[Editor's Note: Yet the South Koreans seem to have adopted the word and >are applying it to the North Koreans!] >----- > >The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of >Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. More kooky kross-kultural konfusion: ----- Chicago Tribune, Oct 23, 1947, p. 36 You might be interested in the names given to America in the orient. Walter Simmons writes from Korea that America there is called Mikook [pronounced mee-gook]. Written in Chinese characters, this translates as "beautiful country," kook meaning country. Most Koreans, incidentally, take no offense when called gooks by GI's. They consider it a rather oafish compliment, meaning that the GI and the Korean both belong to the same country. ----- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 06:21:42 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:21:42 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <37949.69.142.143.59.1111211600.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: >The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of >Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. Quibble: "Miguk" = "America" (cognate with Chinese "Meiguo"), "Hanguk" = "Korea". "Migukin"/"Miguksaram" = "American" (n.), "Hangukin"/"Hanguksaram" = "Korean" (n.) ... I think. -- Doug Wilson From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 06:49:20 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:49:20 -0500 Subject: McKean, Sheidlower, Barrett, Kleinedler in NY Times; "Hot Dog" never to appear Message-ID: McKEAN, SHEIDLOWER, BARRETT, KLEINEDLER IN NEW YORK TIMES Jeez, I'm doing parking tickets ten hours a day and didn't have time to walk five blocks to the library during my lunch hour to check my e-mail and the newspapers. No one points this out? No one reads the New York Times? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/arts/19dict.html CHICAGO - Erin McKean answered the door to her brick apartment building in the Lincoln Square neighborhood here wearing a casual outfit accented by bright, pink-framed glasses and a pair of beat-up black-and-white Converse sneakers. She led a visitor down the wending stairs to her basement office, where she proceeded to sit down - or rather bounce - on a black exercise ball. "Drink?" she asked. She brought the beverage in a neon-blue glass. Might Ms. McKean be an escapee from a local version of Cirque du Soleil? A young woman in the throes of suspended adolescence? Hardly. She is one of the youngest editors in chief of one of the "Big Five" American dictionaries: At 33, she is in charge of the Oxford American Dictionary. (The others are American Heritage, Merriam-Webster, Webster's New World and Encarta.) She was appointed last year, and the first Oxford dictionary created under her auspices will hit stores next month. And she is not alone. Ms. McKean is part of the next wave of top lexicographers who have already or may soon take over guardianship of the nation's language, and who disprove Samuel Johnson's definition of a lexicographer as "a harmless drudge." They include Steve Kleinedler, 38, who is second in command at American Heritage and has a phonetic vowel chart tattooed across his back; Grant Barrett, 34, project editor of The Historical Dictionary of American Slang, whom Ms. McKean describes as looking as if he'd just as soon fix a car as edit a dictionary; and Peter Sokolowski, 35, an associate editor at Merriam-Webster and a professional trumpet player. Jesse Sheidlower, 36, editor at large of the Oxford English Dictionary, is best known among the group so far, partly because he is also editor of "The F-Word," a history of that vulgar term's use in English. He is known for his bespoke English suits, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "HOT DOG," NEVER TO APPEAR IN THE NEW YORK TIMES David Shulman died in November. His obituary mentioned a forthcoming book on the "hot dog" with Gerald Cohen and Barry Popick. Well, the book's out. I asked Jerry to send a copy to Florence Fabricant of the Times food section. She gives blurbs on food products and books and goings on. I'll try to explain this in Tonto English. HOT DOG--NEW YORK--FOOD. Nothing. No response. "Hot dog." This is a well-known food. It's a New York food and a New York story. The New York Times runs a food section every week. Sundays, too. What are they waiting for? David Shulman's already dead. Gerald Cohen to die? Me to die? Will I have to wait until 2017 (twelve years) like I did with the Big Apple? Do they review restaurants for the first time two decades after they open? So I wrote to the newspaper's Public Editor. You know, I've had great success with these guys, especially with the Chicago Tribune. They respond to the public. If you tell them that your work is plagiarized and they printed stuff you never said, the public editors really listen to you and respond. They really care about printing timely, important, accurate news. And the NY Times Public Editor replied that they get so many books, they can't review every book, blah blah blah. A form letter. I could have written that. The Times is a lot kinder to restaurants. Every big name restaurant gets reviewed right away. Even a small, ridiculous hole-in-the-wall that sells goddamn dumplings gets reviewed the week it opens, or gets a blurb, or gets SOMETHING. But if you solve the "hot dog," something that's not done every day, by anyone, actually, well, it's already ten years ago, hell, they're never going to print it! Never! NEVER! We're the Times! You solved the Big Apple? The hot dog? Fuck you! And it's like this every day of my life, and it never gets better. (E-MAILS) Attached Message From: Bapopik To: public at nytimes.com Cc: gcohen at umr.edu; jester at panix.com; sclements at neo.rr.com; jakenyt at yahoo.com Subject: Re: "Hot Dog" book briefly mentioned in Times, but never appears? Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:57:56 AM Eastern Standard Time Thanks for the reply. ... As I said, we sent a "hot dog" copy to Florence Fabricant of the food section--not to the book review. She mentions food news. ... The "hot dog" is an important food, and it's a New York story, too. Gerald Cohen was recently interviewed about this in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. It would make a wonderful food story for the start of the baseball season. ... As you may know, I solved "the Big Apple" in 1992, had the mayor sign "Big Apple Corner" into law in 1997, and finally got profiled in the Times in 2004. I guess these things will take years, but I'll never understand why. ... Very truly yours, ... Barry Popik ... In a message dated 3/18/2005 12:36:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, public at nytimes.com writes: At 01:21 AM 3/16/2005, you wrote: To the Public Editor, ... In November 2004, David Shulman died. His Times obituary mentioned that he was co-authoring a book on the origin of the term "hot dog" with Gerald Cohen (gcohen at umr.edu) and Barry Popik. That book is out. A free copy was given to Florence Fabricant. There's no follow-up? ... The legend of the "hot dog" had been that New York Journal cartoonist T. A. Dorgan ("TAD") coined the word "hot dog" at a baseball game at New York's Polo Grounds, in either 1901 or 1906. Our book states that TAD did use "hot dog" in 1906--when he was covering the Harry Stevens-catered six-day bicycle race at Madison Square Garden. ... Our book reveals that "hot dog" had been used at Yale University, from 1894-1895. We have wonderful newspaper illustrations that the Times can reproduce. ... Our work is mentioned in the Winter 2005 edition of the journal _Gastronomica_. I am also credited on the web pages of the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council. ... It's now the start of the baseball season. Is the New York Times going to ever tell its readers about the true story of the hot dog? Or is that brief mention in David Shulman's obituary going to be it? ... Barry Popik 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 (212) 308-2635 www.barrypopik.com Dear Mr. Popik, We get many suggestions for news coverage from our readers, however we here in the office of the public editor do not participate in the selection of features and reviews or make decisions regarding news coverage. If you want to submit a book for possible review please contact the book review at books at nytimes.com. You may be interested to know that about 80,000 books are published every year and The Times's Book Review reviews about 1,500 to 2,000 of them-- obviously not all published books can be reviewed. I include below some general information about the book review which we hope you will find helpful. Sincerely, Arthur Bovino Office of the Public Editor The New York Times The New York Times Book Review General Information Submitting Material for Review Consideration: Galleys of books for review consideration should be addressed to the "Editor of the Book Review" three to four months in advance of publication. If galleys are not available, finished books may be sent. All publishers are welcome to send material for review consideration, but please be aware that we review only a very small percentage of the books we receive and the odds against a given book receiving a review are long indeed. So before you send galleys or books you should familiarize yourself with the kinds of books we do and do not review. The Book Review covers general-interest books that are published in the United States and that can be found in most bookstores. 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If you wish to be considered as a reviewer, please send a letter stating your qualifications (including the books you have published) and copies of at least five published book reviews. Material should be sent to the Editor of the Book Review, 229 West 43rd St., New York, NY 10036. Best-seller lists Rankings reflect sales at almost 4,000 bookstores plus wholesalers serving 50,000 other retailers (gift shops, department stores, newsstands, supermarkets), statistically weighted to represent all such outlets nationwide. Requests for Research: It's a source of real regret to us that we cannot take time out of our regular duties to provide readers with research, story dates, reprints or other such requests. Our staff and facilities are fully occupied in putting out the newspaper. Back Issues: Back issues of The Book Review and the Times can be purchased by calling 1-800-543-5380. Rights and Permissions: For permission to republish or license Times text or photographs call 212-556-1989 or visit http://www.nytimesagency.com. Other information available from the Times can be found at the Help Center at http://www.nytimes.com/info/help/. Author's Queries: The Book Reviews publishes author's queries for writers doing research free of charge, but only when space permits. There can be no guarantee about whether and when an author's query will be published. Wording of queries should be sent to the Editor of the Book Review, 229 West 43rd St., New York, NY 10036. Be sure to include your phone number so we can reach you. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 19 09:45:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:45:00 -0500 Subject: Noted without comment Message-ID: Willimantic [CT] Chronicle: Aug 8, 1883: Is "dude" libelous? Not long since a suit was brought in New York City on the ground that it was; and more recently a vigorous Bloomington woman cowhided a clerical editor for calling her a "dudess" Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 12:27:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:27:28 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: HDAS shows "mook" going back to 1930. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 6:19 PM -0800 3/18/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? I'm claiming "Mook" < "Mookie", not vice versa, but to address the question-- A whole bunch of Mets fans, especially immediately after his (Mookie Wilson's) role in the 1986 Series win (especially hitting that ground ball that rolled through Buckner's legs). A basketball player named Mookie Blaylock, formerly from the U. of Oklahoma and various NBA teams, would also be called "Mook" on occasion, if memory serves. >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 12:30:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:30:32 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I salute you. I discovered the quote while looking for "peola" cites. I have about fewer than half a dozen, beginning in 1942. Must a "peola" be a female? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've simply forgotten whatever he had to say. And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether anyone salutes, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 12:49:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:49:49 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: <20050319123032.35530.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I suppose this "Peola" is from the movie "Imitation of Life"? -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 19 14:33:28 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:33:28 -0500 Subject: Out of context Message-ID: I'm down from Philadelphia visiting family in Chapel Hill, N.C., and I feel like an exotic. Last night as I walked toward the entrance of their assisted living facility, I trade nods with a couple coming out. After we pass, they hail me from behind with "Shabbat shalom!": obviously, they noticed my kippah (yarmulka). They ask who I'm visiting, and tell me about the Friday evening Kiddush services held in the facility. I tell them Thanks, we knew about those, they were on the monthly schedule. The other facility that my relatives were considering mentioned church trips on its schedule, but no Jewish events. Back at the hotel the desk clerk, a young African-American man maybe just out of high school or in college, comments politely on the kippah, and we get into conversation. Turns out he knows a Jewish man through his school, but he can't remember the type. I run through the "denominations" common in the US -- orthodox, conservative, reform. "No... He believes in Jesus as the Son of God." "Oh," I answer, "OK, yeah. I don't want to argue, but most of us wouldn't call those people Jewish." He still wants to talk with me if I have some time during my stay. This morning the placard at the hotel's breakfast area reads (lowercase reproduced intact): today's weather: sunny today's breakfast special: top of the morning farm fresh eggs, savory country sausage & fluffy biscuits breakfast host: jesus In this context it takes me a few moments to re-parse that last line in my mind's ear: hay-SOOS, not JEE-zus. That staffer with the Spanish accent I told about the broken toaster. Yup, it's not *that* strange a place. mark by hand From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 19 14:52:06 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:52:06 -0800 Subject: Pahk the cah in Hahvuhd Yahd (1976); Joe College 1934) In-Reply-To: <8C6FA50B2F556B4-A10-10521@mblk-r11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The movie "Jaws" (1975) has the following exchange: Brody: They must be in the back yard. Ellen Brody: In Amity, you say "yahd." Brody: [speaking with a bad New-England accent] They're in the "yahd," not too "fah" from the "cah." Brody: How's that? Ellen Brody: Like you're from New York. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 16:13:00 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:13:00 -0500 Subject: "Rendering" of suspects Message-ID: In the King James version of the Christian bible, Jesus Christ is quoted as saying, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. ..." Could the CIA just be trading on this biblical usage? >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Larry Horn: >I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to >"render", but this one doesn't (yet). Well, the "rendering" of suspects has already entered public discourse, and it should probably receive some WOTY consideration (at least for euphemism of the year): ----- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050317-4.html Press Briefing by Scott McClellan, March 17, 2005 Q Are these reports wrong, or does he not believe that there's torture going on in these countries where these prisoners are being rendered back to? MR. McCLELLAN: When people are rendered to another country, we seek assurances that they won't be tortured. When we return known terrorists to their countries of origin, or we render people to countries, we want to have assurances that they're not going to be tortured, because that's a value that we hold very dearly. ... But we do take very seriously what our obligations are, and we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ... Q Scott, on renditions, has the United States ever rendered prisoners to countries other than their country of origin? MR. McCLELLAN: Ken, I'm not going to get into talking about any specific matters, and that would be getting into talking about specific matters. But I think I addressed that question earlier when I said that we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ----- A swing through Nexis suggests that "rendering" has been used by the intelligence community at least since 9/11, though it took some investigative reporting by the Washington Post in 2002 and 2004 for the term to become widely known. The cites below trace a shift in usage: "render (someone) to justice" > "render (someone) to a third country" > "render (someone)". ----- Boston Globe, October 7, 2001, p. A1 "These are not abductions, these are renditions," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "If they are wanted by foreign governments and there is concern that they are involved in terrorist activities, the idea is to render them to justice." ----- Washington Post, March 11, 2002, p. A1 Between 1993 and 1999, terrorism suspects also were rendered to the United States from Nigeria, the Philippines, Kenya and South Africa in operations acknowledged by U.S. officials. ... Even when local intelligence agents are involved, diplomats said it is preferable to render a suspect secretly because it prevents lengthy court battles and minimizes publicity that could tip off the detainee's associates. Rendering suspects to a third country, particularly Muslim nations such as Egypt or Jordan, also helps to defuse domestic political concerns in predominantly Muslim nations such as Indonesia, the diplomats said. ----- Washington Post, December 26, 2002, p. A1 Those who cooperate are rewarded with creature comforts, interrogators whose methods include feigned friendship, respect, cultural sensitivity and, in some cases, money. Some who do not cooperate are turned over -- "rendered," in official parlance -- to foreign intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human rights organizations. ... Some officials estimated that fewer than 100 captives have been rendered to third countries. ... The CIA's participation in the interrogation of rendered terrorist suspects varies from country to country. ----- Columbus Dispatch (Ohio), January 19, 2003, p. 4C In the CIA's euphemistic parlance, captives are "rendered" into foreign hands, and these "extraordinary renditions" are said to give the CIA "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspects. ----- Washington Post, July 29, 2004, p. A8 The exact number of people "rendered" or moved to foreign countries with U.S. assistance is unknown, but two cases have received widespread publicity. ----- Washington Post, December 27, 2004, p. A1 Ahmed Agiza was convicted by Egypt's Supreme Military Court of terrorism-related charges; Muhammad Zery was set free. Both say they were tortured while in Egyptian custody. Sweden has opened an investigation into the decision to allow them to be rendered. ----- Los Angeles Times, January 13, 2005, p. 1 "It's a growth industry," said a recently retired CIA clandestine officer who worked on several "renditions" in the Arab world. "We rendered a lot o FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:23:23 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:23:23 -0500 Subject: Peola (was "Nee" = or; or perhaps) Message-ID: The New York City subway system makes a practice of putting up signs identifying the person who is the general supervisor of each station (usually a group of stations), with a photograph. I noticed with interest a few years ago in a station I do not often pass through that the station manager was one "Peola [last name forgotten]". A woman; from her picture reasonably light-skinned. For you NYCers: as I recall, this was in one of the east side IRT stations. Keep a look out. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:05 pm Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps > The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) > and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever > heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time > I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've > simply forgotten whatever he had to say. > > And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of > your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether > anyone salutes, > > -Wilson > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------- > > > >Get this: > > > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) > it > >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an > young>attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" > >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > > >JL > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 18:36:45 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: 767'd Message-ID: To fire, get rid of? Is this a play on something that happened in the production history of Boeing's 767 and/or a play on the verb to 86? Seattle Post-Intelligencer, WA, March 19, 2005 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/216621_sorbo19.html By CATHY SORBO His marital infidelity was considered by Boeing an act of corporate embarrassment, and Stonecipher was 767'd from the company. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 18:48:59 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:48:59 -0800 Subject: Nice Message-ID: I've been hearing this one-word exclamation for a while now, perhaps a year or so. Today, the cashier at a coffee shop used it when I redeemed my buy-10-get-one-free coffee card. I recall another instance, though I don't remember the details, where someone used it in response to a story I told where I had done something that resulted in a good result for myself. It seems that at least one usage of this word is to compliment someone on doing something that resulted in a positive ending for that person (or someone else). Perhaps it's a narrowed clipping of the expression "nice job". When I hear it, I imagine it could be replaced with "sweet", though the converse is not necessarily true. It seems to be used in a quiet tone of voice, not something that someone yells as an indication of triumph. I think the final /s/ is an important part of the word's identity. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place (starting in Seattle) www.hiroki.us From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:49:34 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:49:34 -0800 Subject: Canadian usage Message-ID: over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by canadians and not shared with other groups. so people suggest characteristically canadian items, and other people write in to say that they're canadian and *they* don't recognize this usage, or to say that the item is also used in the u.k., or in the northern u.s. or wherever (so it's not really *canadian*). when you exclude these two types of items, there's really nothing left. i'm waiting for someone to be told that, well, if they don't have a particular usage, then they're not *really* canadian. the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are supposed to know something about language. (yes, i know, a lot of the participants seem to be deeply, and aggressively, clueless, but still one hopes.) they seem to be unaware of the simplest facts about variation. how have we -- linguists, dialectologists, variationists -- so failed to educate our students and colleagues? they just seem to fall back on folk conceptualizations of language varieties as unique unities standing outside actual people and social groups. arnold, perhaps oversensitive after confronting the stories on the front page of today's NYT (thank goodness erin, steve, etc. appeared inside) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:55:52 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:55:52 -0500 Subject: Out of context In-Reply-To: <20050319092943.U16736@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 9:33 AM -0500 3/19/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > >This morning the placard at the hotel's breakfast area reads (lowercase >reproduced intact): > > >today's weather: >sunny > >today's breakfast special: >top of the morning >farm fresh eggs, savory country sausage & fluffy biscuits > >breakfast host: >jesus Talk about your heavenly host! If it really was Jesus, the Original, you could have checked out whether He'd be willing to turn your tomato juice into a bloody Mary. > >In this context it takes me a few moments to re-parse that last line in my >mind's ear: hay-SOOS, not JEE-zus. That staffer with the Spanish accent I >told about the broken toaster. Yup, it's not *that* strange a place. > > >mark by hand From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 19:01:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:01:46 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <46778.69.142.143.59.1111211854.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 12:57 AM -0500 3/19/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:06 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >Well, there were some actual acronyms around before then in religious >>contexts. The oldest I know of is the famous "I-CH-TH-Y-S" for Jesus >>Christ/fish, immortalized on bumpers to this day. Then there are all >>those Hebrew ones, KATZ, RAMBAM, TANACH, etc. > >Yes, as I mentioned further down in my post! > oopsy-daisy, my bad. Ben even mentioned the same bumpers. GMTA again, obviously, with one of the great minds not even noticing what the other one had written. L From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Mar 19 19:26:03 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:26:03 +0000 Subject: Nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This would seem to be a transatlantic cousin, even descendant, of the UK's 'nice one!', often modified as 'nice one, my son'. This in turn seems to have emerged from the 1970s soccer chant, dedicated to the Tottenham Hotspur player Cyril Knowles. It ran thus: Nice one, Cyril Nice one, son Nice one Cyril Let's have another one! The 'one' being a goal. (BTW, the north-London club Tottenham Hotspur, for those who appreciate the grim persistence of such things, are sometimes known among rival supporters who refer to the club's supposedly high- percentage of Jewish fans, as 'The Yids'.) The phrase, as it is in the chant, is used when someone has performed some action worthy of acclaim and soon spread beyond the soccer world, being used with and latterly without the 'Cyril'. 'Nice' as a term of congratulatory approval by itself is also reasonably common in the UK. I don't know whether the BBC-TV comedy series The Fast Show, has made it to PBS (it wouldn't have been picked up anywhere else, I would imagine) but this series, first aired in the 1990s, assembled a number of sketches featuring a 'cast' of stock characters. one of whom was a supposed jazz critic, whose response to any piece of music, was invariably 'Nice!', the 's' being heavily sibilant. Jonathon Green From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Mar 19 19:29:36 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:29:36 +0000 Subject: Nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At which point I correct myself and apologise for misinformation. 'Nice one', if not 'nice', precedes Mr Knowles, emerging in the late 1960s, very early 1970s. Thus Bob Marley, in 'Kinky Reggae' (1971) 'Nice one, nice one, that’s what they say.' JG From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Mar 19 19:40:57 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:40:57 -0600 Subject: Noted without comment--(dude) Message-ID: This 1883 item isn't surprising. Earlier that year the highly insulting poem (to dudes) had appeared and popularized the term "dude." The dudes were seen to be shallow, brainless young men who were slavishly imitating what they thought was high British culture--tight pants, pointed shoes, high collar, monacle, top hat, cane, cigarette, and a highly affected manner of speaking. The cartoonists and other humorists of that time had a field-day with them. Gerald Cohen Original message: > Willimantic [CT] Chronicle: > > Aug 8, 1883: Is "dude" libelous? Not long since a suit was brought in New York City on the ground that it was; and more recently a vigorous Bloomington woman cowhided a clerical editor for calling her a "dudess" > > Michael McKernan > > > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Mar 19 20:02:22 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:02:22 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France Message-ID: If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a lick-block of salt). http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html -- It is claimed the English word "bad" is used in the same slang sense it has had in the U.S. since at least 1984, where it equals "cool" or "good." Also, one of the kids (white) uses the English word "Black" as a term for black members of his cohort and, apparently, no matter the race, they call each other "négro": do these show the influence hip-hop culture? -- It is claimed that "verlan" (slang-speak in which words are reversed) is now little-used, since it has become so well-known and adopted by the mainstream. -- A large part of the article concerns teaching young people to speak mainstream French rather than city slang, so that they can function outside of their neighborhood and peer groups. This parallels similar debates in the United States. In one part, the author quotes a person who says youngsters calling about internships open with statements like "Hello? It's about an internship" rather than starting with the formal or polite language still customary in business settings. -- The article claims some kids have an active vocabulary of 350 to 400 words and that they lack the polite language necessary for engaging with strangers. It is described how they are basically unable to defend themselves against accusations of law-breaking, or even of being late, because of their impoverished vocabulary. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 19 23:38:23 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:38:23 -0800 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: my latest Language Log posting -- http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 19 23:50:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:29 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: I just asked my 14 year old word/movie/tv geek as he passed through my apartment. He instantly said "Dad. I think it was in the movie "Porky's." (1982). He's been known to be wrong, but he is often right. If someone wants to watch said movie, then we'll know. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" To: Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: tighty-whitey > my latest Language Log posting -- > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html > -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". > anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 23:57:49 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey In-Reply-To: <06bd08761f9214a911eaa1ae02684ecb@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > my latest Language Log posting -- > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html > -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". > anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late 90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The earliest , from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. -- AF From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 00:20:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:20:30 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> my latest Language Log posting -- >> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html >> -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". >> anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late >90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The >earliest >, >from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the >writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. Goes back to 1990 with the spelling "tighty-whities": http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex/msg/199e559efaa1431f --Ben Zimmer From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 20 01:06:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:06:17 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: >I just asked my 14 year old word/movie/tv geek as he passed through my >apartment. He instantly said "Dad. I think it was in the movie "Porky's." >(1982). > >He's been known to be wrong, but he is often right. Yes, but has he been ameliorated? Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 01:15:40 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:15:40 -0500 Subject: 767'd Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >To fire, get rid of? Is this a play on something that happened in the >production history of Boeing's 767 and/or a play on the verb to 86? > >Seattle Post-Intelligencer, WA, March 19, 2005 >http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/216621_sorbo19.html >By CATHY SORBO >His marital infidelity was considered by Boeing an act of corporate >embarrassment, and Stonecipher was 767'd from the company. Boeing is phasing out the 767 and replacing it with the 787, so it would make sense as company slang for getting laid off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787 --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 01:45:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:45:48 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:20:30 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500, Alice Faber >wrote: > >>Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> my latest Language Log posting -- >>> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html >>> -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". >>> anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) >> >>I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late >>90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The >>earliest >>, >>from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the >>writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. > >Goes back to 1990 with the spelling "tighty-whities": > >http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex/msg/199e559efaa1431f The same spelling is found in Connie Eble's _Slang and Sociability_, attested at UNC Chapel Hill in 1991. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0807845841/?v=search-inside&keywords=tighty --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 02:51:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:51:07 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8pjqt7@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: State of Youth Slang In France >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at >current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such >articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a >lick-block of salt). > >http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html > >-- It is claimed the English word "bad" is used in the same slang sense >it has had in the U.S. since at least 1984, where it equals "cool" or >"good." Also, one of the kids (white) uses the English word "Black" as >a term for black members of his cohort and, apparently, no matter the >race, they call each other "nÈgro": do these show the influence hip-hop >culture? Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people who appear in this scene are all white. -Wilson Gray > >-- It is claimed that "verlan" (slang-speak in which words are >reversed) is now little-used, since it has become so well-known and >adopted by the mainstream. > >-- A large part of the article concerns teaching young people to speak >mainstream French rather than city slang, so that they can function >outside of their neighborhood and peer groups. This parallels similar >debates in the United States. In one part, the author quotes a person >who says youngsters calling about internships open with statements like >"Hello? It's about an internship" rather than starting with the formal >or polite language still customary in business settings. > >-- The article claims some kids have an active vocabulary of 350 to 400 >words and that they lack the polite language necessary for engaging >with strangers. It is described how they are basically unable to defend >themselves against accusations of law-breaking, or even of being late, >because of their impoverished vocabulary. > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 03:23:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:23:25 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: "Must a 'peola' be a female?" Yes. "Bright(-skinned)ness" is irrelevant, if a person is male. For a modern example, cf. Wesley Snipes vs. Halle Berry. As is the case in the broader world, a man can substitute fame or fortune, cf. Donald Trump, for fair skin, large breasts, or other measures of physical attractiveness that apply to women. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I salute you. I discovered the quote while looking for "peola" >cites. I have about fewer than half a dozen, beginning in 1942. > >Must a "peola" be a female? > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) >and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever >heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time >I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've >simply forgotten whatever he had to say. > >And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of >your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether >anyone salutes, > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Get this: >> >> "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >>was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >>attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >>(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). >> >>JL >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 04:32:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:32:27 -0500 Subject: Nice Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:26:03 +0000, Jonathon Green wrote: >This would seem to be a transatlantic cousin, even descendant, of the >UK's 'nice one!', often modified as 'nice one, my son'. I would have guessed that "nice going!" was the predecessor in AmEng. OED3 has it from 1938 ("nice work!" from 1914), but it looks like the interjection was relatively common by the mid- to late '20s: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Aug 12, 1910, p. 10 Fisher was responsible for all the runs. He scored the first on Sid's triple, drove in the second and third with his homer and scored the fourth himself. Pretty nice going, that. ----- Appleton Post Crescent (Wisc.), Oct 22, 1925, p. 17 Nice going, Adolphus. But you got us a trifle wrong. ----- Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisc.), Oct 4, 1926, p. 11 Many people who are aware of the consistent bowling of "Bill" Zarling, thought it must have been he. However, no such luck, it was his brother, "Wally" who decided to get himself up among the bowlers. Nice going, "Wally!" ----- Chicago Tribune, Feb 5, 1927, p. 17 (personal advt.) Cherries: I've been practically swamped with responses to pleas for feminine companionship. Nice going! ----- Port Arthur News (Tex.), June 29, 1927, p. 10 He shut out the Bears 4 to 0 with one hit last Friday and on Tuesday of that week he relieved Brown in the fifth inning of a game against Waco and held the Cubs to a single safety for the remainder of the route, finally winning out in the eleventh inning. Nice going! ----- --Ben Zimmer From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 20 05:03:21 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:03:21 +0100 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: <20050319200224.4F5DFA2CA@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:02:22 -0500, "Grant Barrett" said: > If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at > current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such > articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a > lick-block of salt). > > http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html The article quotes a linguist who reckons that young people in poor neighborhoods have a vocabulary of 350 to 400 words, whereas "we" have 2500 words. That has to be nonsense. -- Pas simple de chercher du travail, d'ouvrir un compte en banque ou de s'inscrire à la Sécurité sociale quand on ne possède que "350 à 400 mots, alors que nous en utilisons, nous, 2 500", estime ainsi le linguiste Alain Bentolila, pour qui cette langue est d'une "pauvreté" absolue. -- Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Mar 20 06:11:38 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:11:38 -0600 Subject: Canadian usage Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:49:34 -0800 From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Canadian usage "over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by canadians and not shared with other groups. so people suggest characteristically canadian items, and other people write in to say that they're canadian and *they* don't recognize this usage, or to say that the item is also used in the u.k., or in the northern u.s. or wherever (so it's not really *canadian*). when you exclude these two types of items, there's really nothing left. "i'm waiting for someone to be told that, well, if they don't have a particular usage, then they're not *really* canadian." I can't recall in which newsgroup I saw a post from a Canadian who wanted to reshape his country so that it only took in "real Canadians." He did not consider residents of Ontario and Quebec to be real Canadians. "the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are supposed to know something about language. (yes, i know, a lot of the participants seem to be deeply, and aggressively, clueless, but still one hopes.) they seem to be unaware of the simplest facts about variation. how have we -- linguists, dialectologists, variationists -- so failed to educate our students and colleagues? they just seem to fall back on folk conceptualizations of language varieties as unique unities standing outside actual people and social groups." At least it's on topic. I once looked at a Scottish political newsgroup, out of curiousity about Scottish politics. It was full of Canadians discussing Australian gun laws. (Did you realize that the Magna Carta protects the rights of Australians to bear arms? Rather foresighted of the Barons of Runnymede.) On rec.arts.sf.science, the people who've taken their scientific knowledge from Star Trek (I mean that literally; this is not hyperbole) aren't the problem. Their questions are answered politely, and they politely accept the answers. The problem posters are the ones who have some scientific knowledge -- but not nearly as much as they think they do. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 20 07:04:32 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:04:32 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Quinion discussed possible etyma for "brownie points" recently. I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the Girl Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I have (of course) a naive dubious notion of my own, but before I embarrass myself again I would like to ask Jonathan Lighter and all the other scholars: (1) Is *any* expression of the exact form "brownie point" definitely attested before 1951? (2) Is it certain that there was a previous entity called a "Brownie point" within the Brownies organization, or is it simply assumed that anything called within the Brownies a "point" could be called a "Brownie point" by outsiders? Is there any known record of a literal "Brownie point" (referring to the Brownies) and if so from what date? -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Mar 20 09:36:02 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:36:02 -0000 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050320014450.02fc94a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the > Girl Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. > > Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I've had a lot of interesting feedback on the piece I wrote, but likewise find that the written evidence and responses leave a lot of loose ends. One theory I mentioned connects it to the Brown system of demerits (and merits, though the demerits seem to get all the coverage) on the railways, for which there's lots of evidence for "Brownies" but not so far as I know for "Brownie points"; its narrow constituency would in any case count against it. The other, presented by a couple of subscribers of mature years, links it to a system of rewarding deliverers of magazines by the Curtis Publishing Company in the 1930s by vouchers called "greenies" and "brownies". I included this in the last newsletter in the hope that it would spark some responses; one has come in saying that they weren't brownies but "goldies", which would kill the theory dead. I haven't so far been able to confirm or dismiss either term. Though a link with "brown-nose" is often asserted, with implications that "Brownie points" was WW2 services slang, it is interesting that several examples of the phrase "Brownie points" appear in newspapers in the 1950s. If it had been known to be scatalogical at this period, as many subscribers insist, would it really have been allowed to be so freely printed? > (2) Is it certain that there was a previous entity called a "Brownie > point" within the Brownies organization, or is it simply assumed that > anything called within the Brownies a "point" could be called a > "Brownie point" by outsiders? Is there any known record of a literal > "Brownie point" (referring to the Brownies) and if so from what date? My subscribers are divided on this: some say that there were Brownie points, so called, others that there weren't. I, too, would like a definitive answer! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 20 10:15:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:15:04 EST Subject: "Spring forward/ahead, Fall back" (1957, by L.A. Examiner?) Message-ID: _Chicago Historical Society Home Page_ (http://www.chicagohistory.org/) ... Get E-News, Coming April 28: The Electronic Encyclopedia of Chicago! Did you know that CHS prepares a series of events just for members? ... www.chicagohistory.org/ - 13k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5B_5uR-ETtcJ:www.chicagohistory.org/+"april+28"+and+"encyclopedia+of+chicago" &hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.chicagohistory.org/) I met with my sister to do our taxes together. Earlier in the week, she gave me a fax number. It was wrong. She also gave me a time for the Scarsdale train to take today. It was also wrong. "I was tired," she said. It made m So I took the train to Scarsdale. I decided to buy a hard copy of the New York Times to read about the "young lexicograp And I thought, jeez, this "hot dog" thing is miserable, but that's just one thing. Tulsa World doesn't believe or publish Gerald Cohen when he says that the "Big Apple" doesn't come from a woman's vagina. And I thought, why not wait a couple of years, I'll still be a piece of shit, and there will be a new article on a Sheidlower daughter being the youngest dictionary editor ever. But you have to set goals for yourself, so I have this upcoming April 28th, as above, the next date that I will be plagiarized. So I saw the accountant, and she doesn't ask me if I got married anymore, because the idea that anyone will ever like me is out of the question. But she asked if I made any money from writing, and the answer was again "no." The seasons may change, but you can bet that I'll never be a human ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Does Fred Shapiro have "spring ahead/spring forward, fall back"? It's one of the most popular of American saying, but is usually not quotation books. Walter Winchell's 1957 citation of the Los Angeles Examiner is interesting. Did the Examiner coin It's easy enough to check--we know what spring and fall dates are. The hard part is that I'll have to visit the Library of Congress. PEACEMAKER & DIRT PIE ... Sorry if the right-hand column of my left post got cut off. ... Jacques-Imo's opened in New Orleans in 1996. In February 2004, it opened at Columbus Avenue and 77th Street, bringing a little of New Orleans to New York. In December, "Jacques-Imo's To Geaux" (maybe a French scholar on the list can translate this) opened at Grand Central Terminal. I tried it yesterday. ... The menu includes these: ... Shrimp & Alligator Sausage Cheesecake Jambalaya Smoked Chicken & Andouille Gumbo Red Beans & Rice The "Peacemaker" Po' Boy Shrimp Creole Smothered Blackened Chicken Crawfish Etoufee Corn Macquechoux Jacque's Famous Dirt Pie Beugnets ... I've posted on "dirt cake" here before, but not "dirt pie." I'll do it again, maybe later. ... DARE has nothing on "peacemaker"? Will the OED have anything? Is this really a classic New Orleans sandwich, older than some others? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2lYkxDF6Vmwrpd0fq7GIxtcCsxlyF69hZkIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, January 25, 1991 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+peace+maker+sandwich) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+peace+maker+sandwich) ...Jumbo Extra Large Large S67V. PEACE MAKER SANDWICH H cap cream fir tpruOing.....Otter Eqrint2r11R1 WK WISH FOR PEACE 2019 WEST ANNAPOLIS 224-8686 lues.. Pg. 5, col. 1: PEACE MAKER (SUPER SANDWICH RECOPE) 1 loaf Italian bread 8 slices bacon 1/2 cup sour cream 1.2 pint (8 ounces) shucked Maryland OYSTERS, drained flour for sprinkling 2 medium tomatoes salt and pepper to taste 1 teaspoon horseradish Slice bread lengthwise, scoop out soft bread. Fry bacon, remove and drain. Sprinkle oysters with flour and fry in bacon fat. Remove and keep warm. Slice tgomatoes and cook in remaining bacon fat. Place cooked bacon, oysters and tomatoes in bread. Cut bread diagonally. Mix sour cream and horseradish and serve as a sauce. Makes 4 servings. ... Maryland Watermen's Co-op ... DIRT PIE ... DIRT CAKE--12,600 Google hits, 278 Google Groups hits DIET PIE--640 Google hits, 52 Google Groups hits .. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SIDEWALK SUPERINTENDENT ... This is mentioned in Sunday's New York Times, city section, FYI. I'll research "sidewalk superintendent" later, or someone else can. ... ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/nyregion/thecity/20fyicol.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/nyregion/thecity/20fyicol.html) F.Y.I. A Rockefeller Club By _MICHAEL POLLAK_ (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=MICHAEL POLLAK&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=MICHAEL POLLAK&inline=nyt-per) Published: March 20, 2005 . While watching the excavation for the Bank of America building at 42nd Street and the Avenue of the Americas, I became curious about "sidewalk superintendents," those people who watch the construction. Is that a New York term? A. He may not have originated the expression, but John D. Rockefeller Jr. made it popular during the Depression, when looking at work was a cheap alternative to looking for work. Legend has it that Mr. Rockefeller, who loved to watch the construction of the complex that bore his name, once stopped at the entrance to a trucking ramp, only to be told: "Keep moving, buddy. You can't stand here all day." His response, in November 1938, was the Sidewalk Superintendents' Club, a wooden shed on Rockefeller Plaza between 48th and 49th Streets, complete with free membership cards. The trucking ramp story has a nice egalitarian ring to it, but it was just a legend, according to Daniel Okrent in "Great Fortune: The Epic of Rockefeller Center" (Viking, 2003). He wrote that the idea apparently came from a platform for kibitzers in Des Moines and was apparently picked up by Nelson A. Rockefeller, Junior's son. Whatever the source, the publicity stunt caught on, three-quarters of a million membership cards were handed out in the first three months, and soon there were national affiliates - from Hollywood, Fort Worth and elsewhere - who passed time kibitzing at their local sites ... ... (OED) 3. Comb., as sidewalk cafe, skate, song, tree; sidewalk superintendent joc. (chiefly U.S.), an idler who watches and gives unsolicited advice at construction works, road repairs, etc.; ...1940 Sun (Baltimore) 30 Mar. 20/7 The walk..is covered so that the sidewalk superintendents can meet in rainy weather. 1970 _R. P. WARREN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w.html#r-p-warren) Incarnations 46 Sidewalk superintendents turn now From their duties and at you stare. 1976 A. CASSORLA Skateboarder's Bible 9 Weird-wheeling sidewalk surfers can be seen whipping over the blacktop from Reno to Rio de Janeiro. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Mar 20 12:15:34 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:15:34 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: > Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, > "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which > the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what > you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people > who appear in this scene are all white. I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but between girls? Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 20 12:17:14 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:17:14 -0500 Subject: Dirt Pie Message-ID: >Dirt Pie sounds to me like a drier version of Mississippi Mud Pie/Cake. Michael McKernan From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 20 16:47:20 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:47:20 -0800 Subject: Language Log postings Message-ID: Two recent postings that mine earlier ADS-L exchanges: Orthocorrection: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001993.html Another bullshit night in suck city: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001994.html From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 17:45:56 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:45:56 -0500 Subject: Brownie points Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:04:32 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Michael Quinion discussed possible etyma for "brownie points" recently. > >I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the Girl >Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. > >Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I >have (of course) a naive dubious notion of my own, but before I embarrass >myself again I would like to ask Jonathan Lighter and all the other scholars: > >(1) Is *any* expression of the exact form "brownie point" definitely >attested before 1951? I assume Doug is referring to a 1951 L.A. Times citation, which is not mentioned in Michael Quinion's piece (he mentions two 1954 cites from Newspaperarchive). The 1951 article is interesting, in that it doesn't mention "Brownies" (or capitalize the term), instead relating "brownie points" to the older sense of "brownie" as an elfin spirit: ----- Los Angeles Times, Mar 15, 1951, p. A5 Brownie Points--a New Measure of a Husband By Marvin Miles I first heard about them when the chap standing next to me in the elevator pulled a letter from his pocket, looked at it in dismay and muttered: "More lost brownie points." Figuring him for an eccentric, I forgot about them until that evening when one of the boys looked soulfully into the foam brimming his glass and said solemnly: "I should have been home two hours ago ... I'll never catch up on my brownie points." Brownie points! What esoteric cult was this that immersed men in pixie mathematics? "What are you talking about?" I asked. "Brownie points," he said. "You either have 'em or you don't. Mostly you don't. But if you work hard you sometimes get even. I never heard of anyone getting ahead on 'em. "Are you feeling all right?" "Sure, sure. I'm just worried about my points, that's all." "What's this genie geometry all about?" "You don't know about brownie points? All my buddies keep score. In fact every married male should know about 'em. It's a way of figuring where you stand with the little woman -- favor or disfavor. Started way back in the days of the leprechauns, I suppose, long before there were any doghouses." [...] "If a leprechaun figured out brownie points," I mused, "you can bet it was a girl leprechaun, some scheming sprite who wanted to tie up her guy's conscience in addition and subtraction -- mostly subtraction." ----- So if the Brownie system of merits/demerits is the ultimate source of the expression, then there were at least two subsequent reinterpretations: "brownie" as a euphemism for "brown-nosing", and "brownie" in the elfin sense. (Or, as Michael mentions, these could all be reinterpretations of the voucher system of the Curtis Publishing Co.) --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 18:43:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:43:52 -0500 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) Message-ID: OED3 gives cites for the sarcastic interjection "Not!" back to 1888, including the 1893 _Princeton Tiger_ headline found by Barry Popik ("An Historical Parallel -- Not"). Sheidlower and Lighter's 1993 _AmSp_ article gives further examples from the early 20th century. I recently came across a cite from 1923 in the _Chicago Tribune_, showing that "Not!" was common enough by then to appear in a headline of a major newspaper: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 25, 1923, p. A2, col. 7 Canadian Girls Spill Brownies Quintet, 18 to 8. A Good Sport -- Not! One of the poorest exhibitions of sportsmanship ever shown in this city occurred last night during the basketball game between the Uptown Brownies and the London, Ont., Shamrocks at the Broadway armory. A man named Christensen, a rooter for the Canadian team, deliberately threw an orange and hit a photographer with force enough to crush the orange and raise a large welt on the side of the operator's face. Christensen was a good sport -- not. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 19:40:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:40:47 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Re: State of Youth Slang In France >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: >> Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, >> "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which >> the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what >> you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people >> who appear in this scene are all white. > >I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, >outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to >hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can >witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but >between girls? > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org When I was a kid in Texas, ca.1947-48, it was common for black boys to address one another as "son." Sometimes, the boy so addressed would take pretended umbrage. In such a case, the first boy would reply, "I don't call you 'sun' because you shine; I call you 'son' because you mine." I.e. "I'm yo' daddy. And how did I come to be yo' daddy? Why, by fuckin' yo' mama." IMO, this throws some light on the origin of the current rhetorical question, "Who('s) yo' daddy?" -Wilson Gray From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 04:31:25 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:31:25 -0500 Subject: La Mediatrice or Peacemaker Sandwich Message-ID: MEDIATRICE + NEW ORLEANS--305 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits PEACEMAKER + NEW ORLEANS--85,400 Google hits, 421 Google Groups hits More on the "la mediatrice" or "peacemaker" sandwich. OED doesn't have the sandwich under "mediatrice." Will it enter something for "peacemaker"? I used to give a "peacemaker" to my ex-wife, Kirstie Alley. I think that's how the trouble started, actually. (FACTIVA) Spotlight WACKY QUESTION, FEBRUARY 26 Mike Rudeen, Rocky Mountain News 329 words 26 February 2005 Rocky Mountain News FINAL 9D English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Where was the name for the po-boy sandwich coined, and by whom? - Leonard, Havana, Cuba Although some say the New Orleans-born po-boy descended from the peacemaker sandwich, an oyster loaf so called because carousing 19th- century husbands brought them home to their wives as peace offerings, most sources attribute it to Martin Brothers restaurant. In 1929, during a New Orleans streetcar-workers' strike, Clovis and Bennie Martin, former streetcar conductors themselves, provided free sandwiches from their restaurant to the "poor boys" on strike, according to a story in The (New Orleans) Times-Picayune. This wasn't the first sandwich served in New Orleans on French bread, but a baking innovation about the same time helped the new version catch on. According to an earlier Times- Picayune story, a baker developed a french loaf without tapered ends, making it easier to slice the sandwich into equal sections, the way it's usually served. It isn't known what fillings the Martin Brothers used, but newspaper accounts say roast beef, ham and cheese, and fried potato were popular. Long before the restaurant closed in 1972, the new sandwich - and the name poor boy, soon shortened to po-boy - had caught on in a big way. (FACTIVA) LAGNIAPPE Humble origins for the king of sandwiches Brett Anderson Restaurant writer 457 words 30 May 2003 Times-Picayune 22 English Copyright (c) 2003 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. The po-boy is associated with blue-collar New Orleans as surely as trout meuniere is with Garden District elites. While there are divergent theories about its origins -- one has it that the po-boy was an offshoot of the peacemaker sandwich, an oyster loaf named because 19th century husbands were said to bring one home to their wives as a peace offering after a night of carousing -- most people agree that the po-boy was birthed at Martin Brothers restaurant in 1929 in response to a street car workers' strike. The restaurant was opened in 1922 by Clovis and Bennie Martin, brothers from Raceland who had previously worked as streetcar conductors. Michael Mizell-Nelson, an assistant professor of English at Delgado Community College, has studied the 1929 streetcar strike extensively. His documentary, "Streetcar Stories," includes a portion on the po-boy's origins. The strike was particularly bitter, and Mizell-Nelson has a copy of a letter the Martins wrote professing their allegiance to their former colleagues. In a letter addressed to "the striking carmen, Division I94," the brothers wrote, "We are with you till hell freezes, and when it does, we will furnish blankets to keep you warm." They provided free sandwichesto the carmen for the duration of the strike. Whenever a striker would come by, one of the brothers would announce the arrival of another "poor boy," hence the sandwich's name. New Orleanians, or course, had eaten French bread sandwiches long before the Martins' coinage, but the strike coincided with other innovations that have endured. Typically, French bread loaves are tapered at the ends. Cutting such a loaf into three or four parts to make sandwiches would result in mismatched slices. According to a 1981 story in The Times-Picayune's Dixie magazine, around the time of the strike, "John Gendusa, a baker on Touro Street, solved the problem of equalizing the Martins' sandwiches. He developed an elongated tube-like French loaf of approximately 32 inches in length that was more or less straight from end to end. Used for sandwiches, Gendusa's crusty innovation was an immediate hit." Exactly what kind of po-boys the strikers ate is hard to pin down. Newspaper articles from the 1940s indicate that roast beef, ham and cheese and fried potato were popular. Martin Brothers sold its last po-boy at the corner of St. Claude Avenue and Touro Street in 1972. In its 50-year run, the restaurant served all varieties of sandwiches. Even the originators were not purists. Mizell-Nelson cites a mid-'40s newspaper article that tells of one Martins customer "who insisted he wanted sliced bananas with ketchup and mayonnaise." (FACTIVA) FOOD Super Sandwiches TOMMY C. SIMMONS 696 words 19 January 1989 The Baton Rouge State Times 1-F English The peacemaker, la mediatrice, was New Orleanians' equivalent to bringing home roses and chocolates. Husbands who spent too long with their friends, playing cards or whatever, would stop by their favorite oyster bars on the way home and pick up an oyster loaf or oyster po boy. Certainly, no good woman could stay mad at a man who brought her a hot loaf of French bread filled with crisply fried, succulent oysters. (FACTIVA) Shopping Basket OYSTERS] AW, SHUCKS] JOIE WARNER Special to The Globe and Mail 1,048 words 30 September 1987 The Globe and Mail C11; (ILLUS) PEACEMAKER OYSTER PO BOY According to Jane and Michael Stern in their book Real American Food, the culinary legend of the oyster "po boy" is that it was once known as la mediatrice, because it was what dallying husbands brought back to assuage their wives. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, February 06, 1986 Syracuse, New York ...French dishes as shrimp Creole and la MEDIATRICE. latter is an old New Orleans.. The Daily Intelligencer Wednesday, March 12, 1986 Doylestown, Pennsylvania ...a prewarmed oven-proof casserole. LA MEDIATRICE 1 pint oysters 1 cup sliced.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >From Old New Orleans The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 12, 1947. p. S2 (1 page) : "LA MEDIATRICE" (For Four) 2 dozen oysters 2 egg yolks, beaten Salt and pepper Fat 1 loaf French bread Flour Dip oyster in flour. Brush them over with beaten egg yolk, which has been seasoned with salt and pepper. Now fry in hot fat for three or four minutes, until a delicate golden brown. Drain on absorbent paper. Have ready a loaf of French bread, having removed the top and the soft inside part, thus forming acase. Put a little oyster liquor into this case and set it in the oven to get thoroughly hot. Place the oysters in the loaf, garnish with a few slices of gherkins, cover with the lid, and serve hot. FOR MEN ONLY!; Some Oyster Lore, Then the Creole Husband's Secret for Making Peace with His Irate Spouse MORRISON WOOD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 9, 1949. p. A7 (1 page) : One of the most delicious oyster concoctions I know of is oyster loaf. But I much prefer the Creole designation of this dish, which is la mediatrice, meaning peacemaker. It is really a gastronomical masterpiece--fried oysters served in a hollowed-out loaf of bread, It apparently received its Creole name from two sources, as far as I can determine. WHen Louisiana parents came home from a party in the small hours, they expected their children to be worried and fretful. So they'd bring them a loaf of bread filled with fried oysters. However, the version I prefer has it that the lord and master of the household, coming home at or near dawn with a load aboard, or as the English put it "high tiddley-eye-tie," would present his irate wife with la mediatrice, which he had somehow managed to pick up on the way home. I have never tried this as a pacifier, but it sounds like a good gag. _Use Entire Loaf of Bread_ Cut off the top of the entire loaf of French bread and scoop out the inside to make a basket, leaving about 1/2 inch of crust all around. Then dip 2 dozen oysters in flour. In the meantime, beat the yolk of one egg, and season it with salt and freshly ground pepper to taste, and mix in a teaspoon of sherry. Now dip the floured oysters in the seasoned egg yolk, then in yellow corn meal. Fry them in hot fat until brown. Remove them from the fat, drain, and then place the drained fried oysters in the loaf of bread, which previously has been toasted. Lay thin slivers of dill pickles over the oysters, place the lid on the loaf, and pop it into the oven to become thoroly (sic) warm. Old New Orleans Gives Us This Tasty Oyster Loaf MORRISON WOOD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 19, 1958. p. B4 (1 page) : Errant husbands, returning home in the wee hours [and perhaps with a guilty conscience] would stop for that same toothsome delicacy and present it as a peace offering to irate wives. It was aptly named "la mediatrice" [the Peacemaker]. "La mediatrice" of the Creoles is a refined version of an 18th century English recipe for oyster loaves and is a most savory concoction for late evening or early morning snacks. Cut off the top... (Same as above--ed.) From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 04:57:42 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:57:42 -0500 Subject: Healey's "Squeeze the rich until the pips squeak" (1974?) Message-ID: "Denis Healey" is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, but the two quotes (from 1973 and 1978) don't contain the word "squeeze." I found the below in the weekend Financial Times. OED is especially good for the 1918 "pips squeak" citation. Copyright 2005 The Financial Times Limited Financial Times (London, England) March 19, 2005 Saturday SECTION: FT REPORT - HOUSE & HOME; Pg. 16 LENGTH: 1099 words HEADLINE: Where the tax man fears to tread: Some islands are known for protecting financial assets, but beware of moving just for the accounting reasons, says Lucy Warwick-Ching: BYLINE: By LUCY WARWICK-CHING Tax havens became popular with well-heeled Brits in the 1960s and 1970s when the then chancellor Dennis (sic) Healey famously said he was going to squeeze the rich until they squeaked. Today, a steady trickle of people who have made their pile in the UK continue to up sticks and resettle offshore, while wealthy American mainlanders do the same across the Atlantic. Jersey has Nigel Mansell and Alan Whicker, while Bermuda has Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones. (GOOGLE) LETTERS ... You only have to compare Blair's ideas of a stakeholders' society with Denis Healey's statement in 1974 that 'we will squeeze the rich until the pips squeak'. ... pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr195/letters.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages CIOT | The Chartered Institute of Taxation: Taxes ancient and ... ... In 1974 Denis Healey, who had declared that he would 'squeeze the rich until the pips squeaked', increased the top rate of income tax to 98%, an even higher ... www.tax.org.uk/showarticle.pl?id=1562 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages (OED) b. Phr. to squeeze (someone) until the pips squeak (and variants): to exact the maximum payment from (someone), orig. with allusion to Germany's indemnity after the war of 1914-18 (see quot. 1918). 1918 Cambridge Daily News 11 Dec. 3/2 Sir Eric Geddes followed up his big meeting at the Guildhall on Monday night by addressing another crowded assembly in the large hall at the Beaconsfield Club on Tuesday night... Dealing with the question of indemnities, Sir Eric said: The Germans, if this Government is returned, are going to pay every penny; they are going to be squeezed as a lemon is squeezeduntil the pips squeak. My only doubt is not whether we can squeeze hard enough, but whether there is enough juice. 1929 W. S. CHURCHILL World Crisis: Aftermath ii. 47 One Minister, reproached with lack of vim, went so far as to say ‘We would squeeze the German lemon till the pips squeaked.’ 1933 Radio Times 14 Apr. 75/1 The Lloyd George Coalition Government..elected..on a programme of hanging the Kaiser, squeezing Germany until the pips squeaked. 1940 S. SPENDER Backward Son 64 A clarion call to the readers of the Daily Sketch to make Germany pay till the pips squeak. 1973 P. O'DONNELL Silver Mistress v. 93 We run an inquiry on a client, and we don't squeeze him till the pips squeak... We just pressure him. 1973 Times 12 Nov. 19/3 In opposition..[Labour] would tax the upper working class until the pips squeak. 1978 Times 15 Sept. 3/3 When Mr Singer was asked how the extra money was being found, he said: ‘The pips are squeaking.’ (LONDON TIMES ONLINE) "Until The Pips Squeak" German Indemnities In 1918, An Election Phrase Explained (Letters to the Editor) ERIC GEDDES. The Times Friday, Dec 15, 1933; pg. 15; Issue 46628; col F Sir,--Fifteen years ago, on December 11, 1918, to be exact, I made a speech in the Beaconsfield CLubHall, Cambridge, during the course of a campaign in what became known as the "Khaki Election." Language tended to be heated and exuberant in that election, the restraints of the Great War being over and the economic facts which mellow and subdue as yet unforeseen in any strength and clearness. In that speech I used a phrase which caught the fancy of the moment by giving expression no doubt to feelings and expectations which ran riot in the public mind, unaware of the disillusionment and the wisdom that the years were soon to bring. The phras was this: "squeezing Germany like a lemon until the pips squeak." It has attained unmerited longevity despite my hope that it might have died and been buried with other things born in a passionate election, which though only 15 years ago has seemed at times to be a century past. The Times, Tuesday, Feb 19, 1974; pg. 4; Issue 59018; col D Mr Healey promises action on profits of food manufacturers and retailers From Christopher Thomas. : Promising to "squeeze property speculators until the pips squeak," he (Denis Healey--ed.) said that Lord Carrington, Secretary of State for Energy, had made 10m (pounds--ed.) profit from selling agricultural land at prices 30 to 60 times as high as it would command as farming land. A Budget to complete the social contract (News) The Times Monday, Mar 25, 1974; pg. 13; Issue 59047; col A: The TUC has made clear to Mr. Herath and Mr. WIlson, in turn, that workers will moderate their wage demands only if the better off are squeezed until the pips squeak. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 21 06:16:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:16:22 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary shot (1965) Message-ID: A new OED draft entry: ----- Hail Mary, phr. and n. Chiefly N. Amer. Sport. A desperate play or manoeuvre having a very low likelihood of success; (Amer. Football) a long pass thrown into or near the end zone by a losing team as time is running out. Chiefly attrib. ----- The first cite is from 1972 in the Sporting News, quoting Roger Staubach, who was using the expression "Hail Mary play" a few years before his famous pass in the 1975 NFC Division Playoff game. (Barry Popik contributed this cite to the list in Dec. 2003.) But "Hail Mary shot" was used in college basketball several years before the the football usage: ----- 1965 _Ironwood Daily Globe_ (Mich.) 20 Dec. 10/4 Tom Flynn called it his "Hail Mary shot" and here's how he described it: "I just grabbed it and threw it," said the Marquette captain whose shot in the final two seconds gave Marquette a 75-74 basketball victory over Washington Saturday night and the Milwaukee Classic championship. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 06:33:41 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:33:41 -0500 Subject: Reno--Biggest Little City in the World (1910) Message-ID: I've decided to add "Biggest Little City" to my "Big Apple" website. I was typing for an hour, citing dozens of other "biggest little cities," and then I pressed the "Y!" button on Newspaperarchive and it wrote over my typed page and all my notes were destroyed. Newspaperarchive gets some Reno newspapers. Was this coined (for Reno) in 1910? The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "The biggest little city in the world.--ANONYMOUS, saying, pre-1960." Duh. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 30 June 1910, Reno (NV) Evening Gazette, pg. 4, col. 1: As Jim Coffroth said upon his return to San Francisco after a day spent in the Veada metroplis: "Reno is the biggest little city in the world," which is just what Reno has been saying for many years. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) RENO--The Biggest Little City JOHN F NESS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 8, 1931. p. K18 (1 page) From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Mar 21 06:40:35 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:40:35 -0500 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) Message-ID: A pity the orange didn't raise a knot on the poor photog's pate. Seán Fitzpatrick Beer is good food http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Zimmer Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2005 13:43 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) OED3 gives cites for the sarcastic interjection "Not!" back to 1888, including the 1893 _Princeton Tiger_ headline found by Barry Popik ("An Historical Parallel -- Not"). Sheidlower and Lighter's 1993 _AmSp_ article gives further examples from the early 20th century. I recently came across a cite from 1923 in the _Chicago Tribune_, showing that "Not!" was common enough by then to appear in a headline of a major newspaper: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 25, 1923, p. A2, col. 7 Canadian Girls Spill Brownies Quintet, 18 to 8. A Good Sport -- Not! One of the poorest exhibitions of sportsmanship ever shown in this city occurred last night during the basketball game between the Uptown Brownies and the London, Ont., Shamrocks at the Broadway armory. A man named Christensen, a rooter for the Canadian team, deliberately threw an orange and hit a photographer with force enough to crush the orange and raise a large welt on the side of the operator's face. Christensen was a good sport -- not. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 21 08:03:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:03:00 -0500 Subject: "Berger" and other Penn State diner lingo (1926) Message-ID: The Penn State Collegian has a full digital archive from 1887 to 1940 (including its predecessor, the Free Lance, from 1887 to 1904): http://www.libraries.psu.edu/historicalcollegian/ A 1926 article on the lingo of a local diner includes "berger" for "hamburg(er) sandwich". This antedates the earliest cites for "burger" (MWCD11 1937, OED2 1939). ----- _Penn State Collegian_, Sep. 9, 1926, p. 1, col. 5 "Three Bergers, Draw One, Hat On An Apple"--New Penn State English Course. A little dictionary expansion is nothing to "Jack" and his worthy assistants who are coining a new type of chatter for Penn State lads and lassies at Jerry O'Mahoney's "Get-it-quick" Club Diner. Jack, the boy who's running the joint for Jerry, is the mint where all the slang is coined. He's revolutionizing the vernacular of the lunch room. "Burr' tose," "pitch-pie," "ruz-biff," "scup-cuffy," and "bowl-zupp" have long since served their turns. They are no more. At "Jacks" a customer is served not only food but a brand new kind of chatter that leaves him dumb with amazement. To Jack, a plate of beans is not a plate of beans at all, it is "a thousand." "Adam and Eve on a raft," he yells, and, to the customer's surprise, Morris, his man Friday, slides up two poached eggs on toast. In a like manner bread and butter is "a set up," toast is "angel food," butter is "a chip" and milk is "a glass," a hamburg sandwich is "a berger." [etc.] http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Repository/PSC/1926/09/09/013-PSC-1926-09-09-001-SINGLE.PDF#OLV0_Entity_0001_0019 ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 08:33:47 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:47 -0500 Subject: Specimens of Mississippi Folk-Lore (1928) Message-ID: SPECIMENS OF MISSISSIPPI FOLK-LORE Collected with the assistance of Students and Citizens of Mississippi and Edited by Arthur Palmer Hudson, M. A. Professor of English at the University of Mississippi Published under the Auspices of the Mississippi Folk-Lore SOciety 1928 Mimeographed and Printed by Edwards Brothers Ann Arbor, Mich. I hadn't posted this yet, it seems. No big surprises here. Pg. 85: I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY I'll eat when I'm hungry I'll drink when I'm dry. If the Yankees don't get me, I'll live till I die. Pg. 97: I LOOKED OVER JORDAN I looked over Jordan, and what did I see Comin' for to carry me home, A band of angels comin' atter me, Comin' for to carry me home. If you get there before I do, Comin' for to carry me home, Tell all my folks I'm a-comin' too. Comin' for to carry me home. (The origin form of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" had no chariot?--ed.) Pg. 102: TURNIP GREENS (I love food songs. It's also called "Good Old Turnip Greens" and has Ozark lyrics and 425 Google hits--ed.) Had a dream the other night-- Dreamed that I could fly, Flapped my wings like a buzzard And flew up to the sky. St. Peter stood at the Golden Gate. "From what place did you fly?" I told him from Mississippi I flew up to the sky. Pg. 103: He showed me through a telescope-- I don't know what the means-- I saw ten thousand people Living on turnip greens. They all looked so sassy, Been living above their means, And he kicked them down to the hot place For stealing turnip greens. Turnip greens, turnip greens, Good old turnip greens. Cornbread and buttermilk, And good old turnip greens. Pg. 112: Chickama Craney Crow (It's famous and probably much older--ed.) Chickama, chickama, craney crow; I went to the well to wash my toe. When I got back my black-eyed children was gone. What time is it, Old Witch? Pg. 113: William Come Tremble-Toe William come tremble toe He's a good fisherman, all of us know. Catches hens, puts 'em in pens. Some lay eggs, some lay none. Wire, brier, limberlock, Three geese in a flock, One flew east and one flew west, And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. O-U-T spells out and go, You dirty dish rag YOU. Pg. 116: Ikka bokka soda cracker Ikka bokka boo. Ikka bokka soda cracker, Out goes you. Pg. 118: A bushel of wheat and a bushel of clover, All ain't hid can't hide over. A bushel of wheat and a bottle of rum; You better look out, for here I come. Pg. 118: A tea, a tasket, A green and yellow basket. Wrote a letter to my girl, And on my way I lost it, lost it, A little doggie picked it up And put it in his pocket, His pocket, his pocket, A little doggie picked it up And put it in his pocket. Pg. 122: Little Sally Walker Sitting in a saucer, Weeping, crying. Rise, Sally, rise, And wipe your eyes, Look east and then look west, Look to the one that you love best. Pg. 122: Threading the Needle The needle's eye, just come by, And spread your love so true. Many a beau have I let go Because I wanted you. From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 09:03:49 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 04:03:49 -0500 Subject: Burnt Ends (Chopped Brisket) Message-ID: "Burnt ends" is not in the OED, of course. Does it come from Arthur Bryant's of Kansas City, popularized by Calvin Trillin in The New Yorker? Next to "Jacques-Imo's To Geaux" in Grand Central Terminal is "Brother Jimmy's BBQ" (www.brotherjimmys.com). On the menu is: CHOPPED BRISKET (BURNT ENDS) WESTERN CAROLINA SAUCE...9.50 SAUCES: WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA--TOMATO BASED BBQ SAUCE EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA--VINEGAR BASED BBQ SAUCE SOUTH CAROLINA--MUSTARD BASED BBQ SAUCE (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Chronicle Telegram Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Elyria, Ohio ...to show up early on days when BURNT ENDS are the special. BURNT used to go.....AND cumin: sprinkle evenly over entire BRISKET. Place BRISKET fat-side up in.. The Chronicle Telegram Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Elyria, Ohio ...not chopped (unless you've ordered BURNT ENDS, which is a story in Baked.....times (as in all day long for a big BRISKET) are constants. You can cook a.. (GOOGLE) (BURNT ENDS + BIRSKET--725 Google hits, ) Burnt Ends - Tough, smoky, bits of brisket that are pure gold ... You get burnt ends either because the brisket you’ve smoked ended up with them, or because you have taken parts of a smoked brisket and returned in to the ... bbq.about.com/od/briske1/a/aa081702a.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages BBQ FAQ Section 10.2.1 ... [What are "burnt ends" from a brisket?]. Jim McGrath and Danny Gaulden--. The burnt ends of a brisket come about two ways. ... www.bbq-porch.org/faq/10-2-1.asp - 48k - Cached - Similar pages burnt ends ... Brisket and Burnt Ends. Serves 6-8 8-lb. ... Save tapered end of brisket where grain runs opposite to rest of meat, for burnt ends (see below); slice and serve. ... www.rundogrun.com/weblog/BurntEndsRecipe.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages Brisket -- Naked Whiz Ceramic Charcoal Cooking ... If you cooked a whole brisket or just a flat, take the flat and wrap it in heavy duty foil. ... We recommend that you make "burnt ends" from it. ... www.nakedwhiz.com/brisket.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Restaurants In Kansas City, MO ... Barbecue_) Boyd's 'n' Son: The best brisket (and ohhh, is it good!) rated "As good as we've ever had." Hayward's Pit Bar-B-Que: the best burnt ends (yum, yum ... rec.food.restaurants - May 27 1992, 8:18 am by Kiran Wagle - 2 messages - 2 authors Best Q ... Deservedly. The brisket of beef is exquisite. Oh ... shoulder. And don't forger Hayward's Pit in Overland Park, KS for burnt ends. And ... rec.food.restaurants - May 8 1992, 1:26 pm by Kiran Wagle - 22 messages - 20 authors Fiorella's Jack Stack BBQ - Brisket ... Ribs, sausage, burnt ends, sliced brisket, Hickory Pit Beans, Cheesy Corn Bake, a rub, and a generous allotment of BBQ Sauces. Includes ... www.smokestack.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_9 - 31k - Cached - Similar pages (FACTIVA) Personal Business EDITED BY IRENE PAVE 1,358 words 11 August 1986 Business Week Pg. 79 Vol. Number 2959 (...) Arthur Bryant's Barbecue in Kansas City, Mo. (1727 Brooklyn St.), is a 60-year-old landmark. The founder's niece runs the place, browning and smoking the meat as her uncle did years ago. Some regard this as the only authentic way to barbecue, but even nonbelievers applaud the result. Dinner is about $7. Ask for the free burnt ends--they're just what they sound like and delicious. (FACTIVA) GREAT AMERICAN FOOD CHRONICLES: BARBECUE. (RESTAURANT MARKETING) By Nancy Backas 2,696 words 7 August 1989 Restaurants & Institutions 90 English (...) In the Midwest, barbecued ribs are the heartland's pride and joy, but chicken abounds, as does sausage, sliced pork, brisket, and lamb. The mecca for barbecue of all kinds is Kansas City, Mo., with more than 60 restaurants, among them the legendary Arthur Bryant's, made famous by The New Yorker writer Calvin Trillin, who called it "the single best restaurant in the world." Before his death in 1982, Bryant had cooked for Presidents Harry Truman and Jimmy Carter and Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie. Missouri barbecue oddities include "burnt ends," offered at Hayward's Pit Bar-B-Que,, Kansas City, and "snoots" (pigs' noses) at C&K Barbecue, St. Louis. (FACTIVA) FOOD GUIDE K.C. Barbecue The Standard By Which All Others Are Compared Anne Byrn Food Editor STAFF 2,023 words 6 April 1988 Atlanta Journal and Constitution W/01 English (...) Nearly everyone in this Midwestern city purports to be an expert on barbecue. And what's worse, they retain their geographic prejudice about the subject. Home boy Trillin single-handedly put Arthur Bryant's restaurant on the map. And Atlanta Journal-Constitution columnist Dick Williams claims his hometown barbecue is "so-ooo much better than Southern barbecue." Kansas City Star food editor Art Siemering describes his city's style as "a confluence of Southern and Western, a true crossroads of styles where beef brisket from Texas and pork ribs from the South get equal billing." To translate: Beef briskets in Kansas City are cooked slowly over hickory coals until the faintest ring of pink (from the smoking) and a crunchy, crusty exterior (burnt ends) forms on the outside of the meat. A pound portion of tender beef is thinly sliced, then dropped onto a slice of cushiony white bread with much the same impact a rock would have hitting a stack of tissues. Next, either the famed, gritty, brick-red Bryant's-style sauce or a sweeter version is poured over the creation. Add a handful of dill pickle slivers and another slice of white bread, and you have a handful, sort of Kansas City's version of the Carnegie Deli's corned beef sandwich. From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 12:51:46 2005 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:51:46 -0500 Subject: Second Call for Papers: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: Second Call for Papers: Language Variation and Change in the United States The American Dialect Society, Midwest Region With the Midwest Modern Language Association 10-13 November 2005 The Pfister Milwaukee, Wisconsin We welcome papers dealing with varieties of English and other languages spoken in the United States. Presentations may be based in traditional dialectology or in other areas of language variation and change, including sociolinguistics, historical linguistics, anthropological linguistics, folk linguistics, language and gender/sexuality, language attitudes, linguistics in the schools, critical discourse analysis, or narratology. April 15, 2005 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Email submissions only. Send abstracts to: Kathryn Remlinger remlingk at gvsu.edu American Dialect Society, Midwest Secretary Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan 1-616-331-3122 Membership to ADS is recommended. Membership is $50 and includes a year's subscription to the society's journal, American Speech, and a copy of the Publication of the American Dialect Society (PADS, an annual hardbound supplement). Membership information is available at www.americandialect.org. Membership to MMLA is required. Membership is $35 for full and associate professors, $30 for assistant professors and schoolteachers, $20 for adjunct and part-time faculty, and $15 for students, retired, and unemployed. Information on membership is available at the website below or by writing to MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 1-319-335-0331. For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website, www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers," scroll down to "Associated Organizations," then to "American Dialect Society." -- Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Grand Valley State University Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 21 13:19:38 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:19:38 -0500 Subject: Canadian usage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" > that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language > essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by > canadians and not shared with other groups... > the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are > supposed to know something about language... sci.lang is an unmoderated newsgroup, and is therefore, nearly by definition, pretty much a pointless read. I pop in once in a while in the hopes that it'll be worthwhile, but the Esperanto and spelling reform wars drive me away pretty quickly every time. A sci.lang.moderated, OTOH--which i am *not* (nor will i ever) volunteering to moderate--could be interesting. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Mar 21 14:29:12 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:29:12 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard Dominican women of the same age, speaking in English, call each each other "mi'ja" (a contraction of "mi hija," meaning "my daughter") as a term of endearment; in fact, I've heard them address their own mother with the word! Can't say I've heard Dominican men/boys use "mi'jo" to each other, but I don't happen to be acquainted with any bilingual Dominican men. I know that Dominicans often call each other "mami" and "papi" as a term of endearment, regardless of age and relationship (witness "Big Papi," the nickname given to David Ortiz of the Boston Red Sox). But as far as I know, none of these terms is used across gender boundaries. All of which is to say, I guess, that Spanish family relationship terms are frequently generalized to terms of endearment by Dominicans, which may help to explain the phenomenon Grant observed, though it doesn't explain the gender- bending aspect of the usage. Joanne Despres On 20 Mar 2005, at 7:15, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, > > "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which > > the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what > > you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people > > who appear in this scene are all white. > > I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, > outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to > hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can > witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but > between girls? > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 21 15:19:41 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:19:41 +0100 Subject: Sign language town In-Reply-To: <20050321143430.C27612477@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Interesting article in the New York Times about a town "built around American Sign Language, where teachers in the new school will sign, the town council will hold its debates in sign language and restaurant workers will be required to know how to sign orders." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/national/21deaf.html?pagewanted=1&th Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 21 16:14:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:14:59 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? Message-ID: 1996 Truman Smith The Wrong Stuff (rpt. Norman: U. of Okla. Press, 2002) 28: Somebody before us had recognized the problem and had attempted to solve it with some jury-rigged, jill-farted extension levers that stuck up out of the control console like four random sticks jammed into a puddle of mud. Jill-farted ? ? "Misbegotten" ? ? Google offers nothing. Presumably this comes one way or another from "jill-flirted." Smith, born in 1923, grew up near Ponca City, Okla. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 16:29:09 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:29:09 -0500 Subject: jill-farted ? ? In-Reply-To: <20050321161459.26005.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Surely a misundertanding of "jillflirted." Look under "gillflirted" in DARE. It's clearly from 'jill' (=female), indicating vaginal injury, but the general sense of "messed up" is well-established. Used it myself in my youth. Don;t say it no more, specially up here in Michigan, cause folk look at me funny (well, funnier). dInIs >1996 Truman Smith The Wrong Stuff (rpt. Norman: U. of Okla. Press, 2002) 28: >Somebody before us had recognized the problem and had attempted to >solve it with some jury-rigged, jill-farted extension levers that >stuck up out of the control console like four random sticks jammed >into a puddle of mud. > >Jill-farted ? ? "Misbegotten" ? ? Google offers nothing. > >Presumably this comes one way or another from "jill-flirted." > >Smith, born in 1923, grew up near Ponca City, Okla. > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Mon Mar 21 18:25:38 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:25:38 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin or date of origin of the term "social interaction"? Thank you, Kathy Seal From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:20:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:20:05 -0800 Subject: Canadian usage In-Reply-To: <423EC9EA.1080604@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 21, 2005, at 5:19 AM, David Bowie wrote: > sci.lang is an unmoderated newsgroup, and is therefore, nearly by > definition, pretty much a pointless read. > > I pop in once in a while in the hopes that it'll be worthwhile, but the > Esperanto and spelling reform wars drive me away pretty quickly every > time. i read very selectively. i have a kill-file, and also kill entire threads. and skim through the rest. occasionally there's something of interest. i'll forward a cute exchange from a week or so ago. > > > A sci.lang.moderated, OTOH--which i am *not* (nor will i ever) > volunteering to moderate--could be interesting. undoubtedly. who would ever volunteer as moderator, though? there are some *seriously* contentious people posting now. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:20:09 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:20:09 -0800 Subject: Fwd: article from sci.lang Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Greg Lee >> Newsgroups: sci.lang >> Subject: Re: Criticisms of "a" >> Date: 13 Mar 2005 01:23:22 GMT >> >> Miguel Carrasquer wrote: >>> On 12 Mar 2005 13:25:29 -0800, gugobsn2718 at hotmail.com >>> wrote: >> >>>> Hello, I'm currently working on a research paper about the word >>>> "a." I >>>> need to find any material I can that expresses an opinion about "a" >>>> as >>>> used by an author. >> >>> Google for "a", then see if any opinions are expressed among >>> the 8 billion hits. >> >>> What the hell is a research paper about the word "a"???? >> >> Maybe he's just working on an article. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:38:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:38:33 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: <20050309024941.32899.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd > antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the > birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can > consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," > though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to > the film.) > > Me, I say "your. i'll forward some exchanges between me and john singler on this usage, from last month. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:40:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:40:01 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: singler's reply to my initial e-mail: Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 23, 2005 3:08:36 PM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > When this came up in my undergraduate socio class a few weeks back, > Sonya--one of the TA's--pointed out that there is variation in > pronunciation between [gayz] and [gayzIz]. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:10 pm > Subject: on the possessive front > >> noticed at the BLS meetings: a commenter on the Walker/Mpiranya >> paper >> referred repeatedly to "your guys' analysis" 'the analysis that >> you >> guys put forward'. then this morning i heard Barry Bonds use this >> possessive (referring to the reporters) in his press conference. >> >> plenty of examples to be found on the net. some people use an >> apostrophe (as in the first example below), but many eschew >> punctuation >> (as in the other two): >> >> StangNet Forums - Tranny went, need your guys' help asap... >> forums.stangnet.com/showthread. php?goto=lastpost&t=532844 >> >> ... [DSL] Verizon PA sucks, really need your guys help! Ok, so I >> originally had a westell 2200 in my house and replaced it with a >> Versalink 327W. ... >> www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12577506~mode=flat >> >> ... hey i just bought your guys cd it rocks I love disco >> mothafucka ... >> haha i love your guys band name...it makes me happy. your music >> rocks!! >> thanks for ... >> www.myspace.com/thepenfifteenclub >> >> > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:40:57 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:40:57 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: message 3: a brief response from me to singler: Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > Date: February 23, 2005 3:23:22 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Cc: Philipp Angermeyer , Tommy Grano > , Tom Wasow > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > > On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:08 PM, you wrote: > >> When this came up in my undergraduate socio class a few weeks back, >> Sonya--one of the TA's--pointed out that there is variation in >> pronunciation between [gayz] and [gayzIz]. > > the spoken examples were monosyllabic. i'd guess that the examples > written without an apostrophe are too. no way to tell about the > examples written with an apostrophe. > > arnold > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:42:54 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:42:54 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: message 4, the last: from singler to me... Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 27, 2005 8:58:14 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > Google reports 2370 hits of "your guyses" and 2220 of "you guyses." A > number of the "you guyses" tokens are not possessives; they simply > reflect a pronominal form. > (Remember when we thought the forms of pronouns in American English > were I/me, you, he/him, she/her, it, we/us, they/them, and maybe > yall?) > John > > Some examples > Your guyses > i need your guyses help hi all just dropped in im from chicago and > was just > wondering . . . > > thats wierd...cuz like... your guyses guy cusins/bros dont want > you to have bfs or anything or talk to guys [on a list for South-Asian > Americans) > > I wish my name was as cool as your guyses! > > You guyses as possessive > [Many of these hits repeat the same passage indicating that > Pittsburghers think of it as a Pittsburghism] > You hear "you guyses," and don't think twice. (Example..."you guyses > house is > nice"). - > > You guyses as non-possessive > What my question is, is do any of you guyses do pool running? > > ... You guyses have an amazing candy sound. > > Since my MOM threw away my MICROPHONE, I need you guyses help! > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 22:02:59 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:02:59 -0800 Subject: Safire on "nukular" Message-ID: Safire's "On Language" column of 3/20/05 has a segment on "nucular" that strikes me as pretty confused. It also fails entirely to mention Geoff Nunberg's book _Going Nucular_ and the piece that gave the book its title (not to mention the various Language Log postings that have discussed this pronunciation; Googling on "nucular" and "Language Log" will get you the references). I would have thought that the title of Geoff's book would be a pretty clear hint that the pronunciation "nucular" was going to be discussed somewhere in the volume. Instead, Safire asked for Steve Pinker's advice, and Steve came up with a metathesis account -- Safire dutifully defines "metathesis" and indicates its pronunciation -- that can't be the whole story. Here's how he gets into it: ---- Many of us replace an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes (the smallest units of speech sounds) with a familiar one. The only other common word that rhymes with _nuclear_ is the unfamiliar _cochlear_. But in our spectacular language, there are dozens of words like _secular_, _vascular_, _jocular_ and _molecular_, and our brains are tempted to make _nuclear_ fit that familiar pattern. ----- Problem 1, a minor annoyance: "the smallest units of sounds" isn't going to elucidate the notion of "phonemes" to anyone who doesn't already know what phonemes are. It's just baffling. Problem 2, more serious: "an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes". As Geoff points out in his book, the /li at r/ at the end of "nuclear" isn't at all unfamiliar to or difficult for speakers of English: comparatives like "pricklier" are unproblematic and show no inclination towards being reshaped. The problem with "nuclear" isn't phonological but morphological, and that's why words in "-cular" /kyul at r/ are relevant; they appear to have some sort of root ending in "c" /k/, followed by morphological elements "ul" /y at l/ and "ar /@r/, or perhaps an indivisible "ular" /y at l@r/. (Back on 7/3/04, in fact, Alison Murie suggested on ADS-L that "nucular" might be a reanalysis in which the root is the word "nuke", and the word "nucleus" isn't involved at all. And Geoff entertains a similar idea in his article, noting that this would predict a difference between "nuclear" in things like "nuclear family" and "nucular" in things like "nucular weapons".) Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second (as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. Problem 4, another mere annoyance. Safire is being sloppy when he says that "nuclear" rhymes with "cochlear". It doesn't, because the accented vowel /u/ of "nuclear" doesn't match the accented vowel /o/ or /a/ of "cochlear". ( If *they* "rhyme", then so do "noodles" and "models".) Rhyme involves a matching between accented vowels and everything that follows them. The pair "nuclear"/"cochlear" is a kind of almost-rhyme, in which everything that follows the accented vowels matches. Almost, but definitely no cigar. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 22:22:32 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:22:32 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, Cut Pinker a break; he doesn't know anything about language. It's Safire who should be excoriated (cool word!) for asking a psycho instead of a linguini about language. dInIs PS: I also almost had an accident when I read that Pinker called it "metathesis"! For nonlinguists (e.g., Pinker), it appears to mean something like "sounds aren't in their expected (i.e., standard) order and/or some goodies are stuck in or took out. >Safire's "On Language" column of 3/20/05 has a segment on "nucular" >that strikes me as pretty confused. It also fails entirely to mention >Geoff Nunberg's book _Going Nucular_ and the piece that gave the book >its title (not to mention the various Language Log postings that have >discussed this pronunciation; Googling on "nucular" and "Language Log" >will get you the references). I would have thought that the title of >Geoff's book would be a pretty clear hint that the pronunciation >"nucular" was going to be discussed somewhere in the volume. > >Instead, Safire asked for Steve Pinker's advice, and Steve came up with >a metathesis account -- Safire dutifully defines "metathesis" and >indicates its pronunciation -- that can't be the whole story. Here's >how he gets into it: >---- >Many of us replace an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes (the smallest >units of speech sounds) with a familiar one. The only other common >word that rhymes with _nuclear_ is the unfamiliar _cochlear_. But in >our spectacular language, there are dozens of words like _secular_, >_vascular_, _jocular_ and _molecular_, and our brains are tempted to >make _nuclear_ fit that familiar pattern. >----- > >Problem 1, a minor annoyance: "the smallest units of sounds" isn't >going to elucidate the notion of "phonemes" to anyone who doesn't >already know what phonemes are. It's just baffling. > >Problem 2, more serious: "an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes". As >Geoff points out in his book, the /li at r/ at the end of "nuclear" isn't >at all unfamiliar to or difficult for speakers of English: comparatives >like "pricklier" are unproblematic and show no inclination towards >being reshaped. The problem with "nuclear" isn't phonological but >morphological, and that's why words in "-cular" /kyul at r/ are relevant; >they appear to have some sort of root ending in "c" /k/, followed by >morphological elements "ul" /y at l/ and "ar /@r/, or perhaps an >indivisible "ular" /y at l@r/. (Back on 7/3/04, in fact, Alison Murie >suggested on ADS-L that "nucular" might be a reanalysis in which the >root is the word "nuke", and the word "nucleus" isn't involved at all. >And Geoff entertains a similar idea in his article, noting that this >would predict a difference between "nuclear" in things like "nuclear >family" and "nucular" in things like "nucular weapons".) > >Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. >Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with >primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second >(as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable >would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), >yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, >because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is >assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" >words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more >parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. > >Problem 4, another mere annoyance. Safire is being sloppy when he says >that "nuclear" rhymes with "cochlear". It doesn't, because the >accented vowel /u/ of "nuclear" doesn't match the accented vowel /o/ or >/a/ of "cochlear". ( If *they* "rhyme", then so do "noodles" and >"models".) Rhyme involves a matching between accented vowels and >everything that follows them. The pair "nuclear"/"cochlear" is a kind >of almost-rhyme, in which everything that follows the accented vowels >matches. Almost, but definitely no cigar. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 00:54:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:54:54 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Not me. JL Kathy Seal wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Kathy Seal Subject: Re: jill-farted ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know the origin or date of origin of the term "social interaction"? Thank you, Kathy Seal --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 22 00:58:09 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:58:09 EST Subject: "Spring forward/ahead, Fall back" (1957, by L.A. Examiner?) Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:15:04 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM cites: > Does Fred Shapiro have "spring ahead/spring forward, fall back"? It's > one of the most popular of American saying, but is usually not quotation > books. > > Walter Winchell's 1957 citation of the Los Angeles Examiner is > interesting When I was in elementary school (1953-1959) I had a subscription to a children's magazine entitled "Jack and Jill". I distinctly remember encountering the mnemonic "Spring forward, fall back" in this magazine, specifically in the column that appeared each month under the pseudonym "Finnie the Office Goldfish". - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 22 01:10:02 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:10:02 EST Subject: "Best man for the job" Message-ID: My daughter helped judge a high school Academic Team tournament. One question was to name the first female Cabinet member. She says it doesn't bother her that nobody got Frances Perkins (Secretary of Labor under FDR), but why did every single team come up with Condaleeza Rice? Didn't Albright and Reno make any impression on today's high school students? Which leads to a question: was the saying "She's the best man for the job" invented for Perkins (by FDR?), or was it already in existence when FDR nominated Perkins? OT: Front page of today's Wall Street Journal has an whazzat headline: "Rice arrives in China". There is hope; the Republicans and the Democrats agree on one thing, namely that we do not need a white male as Secretary of State. - Jim Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 01:10:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:10:50 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Interesting collection, Arnold. Abhorrent, but interesting. Now "You-guys's" is starting to look relatively old-fashioned to "me-guys" (1,753 Google hits)*. *(Just kidding ! But I bet for a second you were paralyzed with fear ! ) JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- message 4, the last: from singler to me... Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 27, 2005 8:58:14 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > Google reports 2370 hits of "your guyses" and 2220 of "you guyses." A > number of the "you guyses" tokens are not possessives; they simply > reflect a pronominal form. > (Remember when we thought the forms of pronouns in American English > were I/me, you, he/him, she/her, it, we/us, they/them, and maybe > yall?) > John > > Some examples > Your guyses > i need your guyses help hi all just dropped in im from chicago and > was just > wondering . . . > > thats wierd...cuz like... your guyses guy cusins/bros dont want > you to have bfs or anything or talk to guys [on a list for South-Asian > Americans) > > I wish my name was as cool as your guyses! > > You guyses as possessive > [Many of these hits repeat the same passage indicating that > Pittsburghers think of it as a Pittsburghism] > You hear "you guyses," and don't think twice. (Example..."you guyses > house is > nice"). - > > You guyses as non-possessive > What my question is, is do any of you guyses do pool running? > > ... You guyses have an amazing candy sound. > > Since my MOM threw away my MICROPHONE, I need you guyses help! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 22 01:43:30 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:43:30 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Even us blue-collar (or is it blucular?) dudeses can see that Arnold is on the money. Looks like the ball was fumbled. Is it known that "nucular family" doesn't occur [often]? I'll be listening for it now; it won't surprise me when I hear it. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 22 02:00:14 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:00:14 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <53401.24.225.220.222.1111340756.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutge rs.edu> Message-ID: >I assume Doug is referring to a 1951 L.A. Times citation, which is not >mentioned in Michael Quinion's piece (he mentions two 1954 cites from >Newspaperarchive). The 1951 article is interesting, in that it doesn't >mention "Brownies" (or capitalize the term), instead relating "brownie >points" to the older sense of "brownie" as an elfin spirit: > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Mar 15, 1951, p. A5 >Brownie Points--a New Measure of a Husband >By Marvin Miles > >I first heard about them when the chap standing next to me in the elevator >pulled a letter from his pocket, looked at it in dismay and muttered: >"More lost brownie points." >Figuring him for an eccentric, I forgot about them until that evening when >one of the boys looked soulfully into the foam brimming his glass and said >solemnly: >"I should have been home two hours ago ... I'll never catch up on my >brownie points." >Brownie points! What esoteric cult was this that immersed men in pixie >mathematics? >"What are you talking about?" I asked. >"Brownie points," he said. "You either have 'em or you don't. Mostly you >don't. But if you work hard you sometimes get even. I never heard of >anyone getting ahead on 'em. >"Are you feeling all right?" >"Sure, sure. I'm just worried about my points, that's all." >"What's this genie geometry all about?" >"You don't know about brownie points? All my buddies keep score. In fact >every married male should know about 'em. It's a way of figuring where you >stand with the little woman -- favor or disfavor. Started way back in the >days of the leprechauns, I suppose, long before there were any doghouses." >[...] >"If a leprechaun figured out brownie points," I mused, "you can bet it was >a girl leprechaun, some scheming sprite who wanted to tie up her guy's >conscience in addition and subtraction -- mostly subtraction." >----- > >So if the Brownie system of merits/demerits is the ultimate source of the >expression, then there were at least two subsequent reinterpretations: >"brownie" as a euphemism for "brown-nosing", and "brownie" in the elfin >sense. (Or, as Michael mentions, these could all be reinterpretations of >the voucher system of the Curtis Publishing Co.) That's right, that's the earliest I've seen. When etymologizing I believe in trying to account for the earliest instances first (unless there's a question of anomaly or discontinuity). "Brownie points" in this piece are units of a wife's favor; in subsequent items they are notional units of somebody's (boss's, teacher's, etc.) favor. The derivation from a point awarded to a Brownie (junior Girl Scout) is not unbelievable IMHO. One can picture the Brownie (a little girl of age 7 or so, I think) helping Mom with the garden or the sewing and getting a point toward a merit badge or something like that. Then if Dad helps Mom, he gets a (jocular) point too. And if he does something to accommodate his boss, he gets a similar (sarcastic) point in the eyes of his (jealous?) co-workers. A reasonable speculation, but so far not substantiated, apparently ... please correct me if substantiation is available. Here is an alternative speculation for consideration. It is inferior to the above speculation in that the candidate etymon is not exactly "brownie point"; it is superior to the above and to the railroad and magazine stories presented by Michael Quinion in that the candidate etymon is known to have existed and to have been familiar to the general public. During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and blue. A pound of sirloin steak might cost (say) 40 cents, a pound of hamburger 25 cents, a pound of chicken 50 cents [expensive!] ... but to buy the pound of sirloin one might need to submit 12 brown points, while the hamburger might require 6 brown points per pound but the chicken required no points. So theoretically no matter how affluent you were, if you had no brown points you couldn't have any beef (although you could eat a lot of chicken). [Of course there were all kinds of complications and one could of course circumvent the system.] There was also a scheme to encourage conservation of grease (which was used for various purposes): one could take a pound of accumulated kitchen grease to the meat market and sell it for 4 cents plus 2 brown points, apparently. There are hundreds of instances of "brown point" in this sense at N'archive from 1943-4. Generally the food ration points could not be stored up: they expired after a certain interval (often 1 month, I think). In 1944 (I think), the food rationing system was dropped and all talk of ration points abruptly ceased. But it is not impossible that "brown point" was slightly modified to "brownie point", perhaps reinterpreted as related to Girl Scouts or otherwise. One can imagine various types of jokes or sayings which might have provided a bridge: e.g., "Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor ... no brown points, no meat tonight." Note that it would have been the men who typically might have made such remarks, while it was mostly the women who would have dealt with the brown stamps (no stamps were required in the military AFAIK). Only a speculation: maybe not even the best one. ---------- _Times Recorder_ (Troy NY), 16 Dec. 1943: p. 24: <> ---------- _Gettysburg [PA] Times_, 25 Feb. 1944: p. 3: <<"But say," Chick Klein exclaimed, "the way I feel now -- well, I'm not as young as I used to be, but I hope the brown points hold out. I'm going to be needing a lot of steaks when we start training at Wilmington.">> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Mar 22 10:00:36 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:00:36 -0000 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050321011907.02fd7590@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote > During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of > food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a > rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified > number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were > issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and > fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and > blue. I've also just found a reference to something called War merit points at that time, which young people could earn by being helpful; 500 of them would get them a War Patriot's Certificate. So the idea of points was most definitely in the air, though so far I've only found a reference to this particular sort of point from Alabama, so it might have been a local initiative. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 22 12:50:51 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:50:51 -0500 Subject: Student eggcorns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll readily admit that I'm still not entirely clear on the boundaries between eggcorns and other related items, but here's a couple from a student paper, both on the very first page. The beauty of these is that they're both spell-check-proof, too. The first one: "UCF students come from a variety of diverse *back rounds* and ethnicities." The other one--though i'm not sure if this is an eggcorn or building a new verb: "As *I fore mentioned*, my study began with ..." Like i said, there's a couple ways of analyzing that one--either "I fore mentioned" (with /aj/-monophthongization) from "aforementioned", or "fore mentioned" as a verb backformed from "aforementioned" (with a space added to satisfy the spell-check routine). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 22 15:05:55 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:05:55 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <423FECC4.17286.5F1762@localhost> Message-ID: >Douglas G. Wilson wrote > >> During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of >> food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a >> rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified >> number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were >> issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and >> fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and >> blue. > >I've also just found a reference to something called War merit points >at that time, which young people could earn by being helpful; 500 of >them would get them a War Patriot's Certificate. So the idea of >points was most definitely in the air, though so far I've only found >a reference to this particular sort of point from Alabama, so it >might have been a local initiative. > >Michael Quinion ~~~~~~~~~~~ I well remember the ration books, stamps & points for meat, canned goods,gas, & some clothing. I don't remember "brownie points" being used in this connection, which of course doesn't mean anything in itself, not least because I don't remember hearing the expression at all until years later. Whatever its ultimate derivation, I daresay its connotation probably varies a lot from user to user. When I hear it (or use it), it suggests contempt & I assume a connection to "brown nose." BTW that grease we recycled during WWII was mostly used for the making of glycerin, I believe. A. Murie From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 22 15:36:14 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:36:14 -0600 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pds at VISI.COM Tue Mar 22 19:23:58 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:23:58 -0600 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050322155302.63D0A4CC6@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<<< --Tom Kysilko From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 19:48:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:48:16 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. Just a suggestion. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college >grad, female, >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This may >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - but >maybe not. > >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of >recovery. <<<< > >--Tom Kysilko From pds at VISI.COM Tue Mar 22 20:09:24 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:09:24 -0600 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050322194820.3487E49C4@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... they're all like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." Maybe it's just me, --Tom Kysilko Quoting Wilson Gray : > Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. > Just a suggestion. > > -Wilson Gray > > >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > >grad, female, > >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This > may > >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - > but > >maybe not. > > > >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical > >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they > all > >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged > (her > >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of > >recovery. <<<< > > > >--Tom Kysilko > > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 20:34:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:34:21 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, I'm with you all the way. It just struck me as really, really, really weird that replacing "that" with "like" makes that sentence feel so much better. As one of my old profs used to say, "How can this *be*?!" -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... >they're all >like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." > >Maybe it's just me, >--Tom Kysilko > >Quoting Wilson Gray : > >> Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. >> Just a suggestion. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college >> >grad, female, >> >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This >> may >> >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - >> but >> >maybe not. >> > >> >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her >>full medical >> >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they >> all >> >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged >> (her >> >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of >> >recovery. <<<< >> > >> >--Tom Kysilko >> >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 20:49:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:49:39 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang Message-ID: Coal-miner's cocaine = OxyContin : p.50, Mar 28, 2005 issue of Time. A funny thing, I've been using oxycodone for the past quarter-century and I'm not addicted. ;-) -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 21:01:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:01:21 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: Wiley Miller's syndicated panel cartoon "Non Sequitur" of March 3, 2005 depicts a Dilbert-like office worker blowing a huge police whistle and inducing an apparent heart attack in a older coworker. A third employee observes, "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a euphemism...." In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, IIRC. Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live TV. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 21:04:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:04:20 -0800 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But, then, you're not a coal-miner. This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: New (to me) slang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coal-miner's cocaine = OxyContin : p.50, Mar 28, 2005 issue of Time. A funny thing, I've been using oxycodone for the past quarter-century and I'm not addicted. ;-) -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 22 21:05:52 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:05:52 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: <20050322210420.44966.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > But, then, you're not a coal-miner. > > This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. "Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps equally factitious, term for this. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 21:34:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:34:08 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When you come across a slang term for the first and ofttimes the only time in the NYT magazine - hillbilly heroin - or in Time - coal-miner's cocaine - it probably makes sense to take it with a grain - or perhaps a box - of salt. -HWG >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >Subject: Re: New (to me) slang >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> But, then, you're not a coal-miner. >> >> This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. > >"Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps >equally factitious, term for this. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Tue Mar 22 21:44:19 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:44:19 -0800 Subject: "social interaction" Message-ID: Can anybody help me find the time when "social interaction" became a phrase used in English? My impression is that it's a relatively recent locution but a friend wants to use it in a novel taking place in the 1930s. Any help is appreciated! Kathy KATHY SEAL Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 22 23:30:15 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:30:15 -0500 Subject: "social interaction" Message-ID: The term was in use in the social sciences prior to that time, but had not yet achieved popularity. Scientists have used the term at least since 1920: <> E.L. Talbert, "The Role of Investigation in the Making of a Municipal University," The Scientific Monthly, vol. 11, no. 2, at 151, 157 (Aug. 1920). Accordingly to Westlaw, the phrase (including "social interactions") has been used in 1,133 legal opinions. The earliest was in 1959, the next earliest in 1969. I would say that you are right to be leary of "social interaction" as a phrase used in the 1930s, unless there is some scientific connection. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Kathy Seal Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "social interaction" Can anybody help me find the time when "social interaction" became a phrase used in English? My impression is that it's a relatively recent locution but a friend wants to use it in a novel taking place in the 1930s. Any help is appreciated! Kathy KATHY SEAL Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Mar 23 00:44:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:44:04 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <20050322210122.43570.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This just points up the urgent need for Congress to pass a law establishing a speed limit on semantic evolution. It shouldn't be allowed to occur at a speed any faster than I can keep up with! :) Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:01 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Wiley Miller's syndicated panel cartoon "Non Sequitur" of March 3, 2005 > depicts a Dilbert-like office worker blowing a huge police whistle and > inducing an apparent heart attack in a older coworker. A third employee > observes, > > "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is > just a euphemism...." > > In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes > with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is > quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. > > The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, > IIRC. > > Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on > live TV. > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:27:42 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:27:42 -0800 Subject: the preposition "bar" Message-ID: from a handout at a stanford linguistics presentation 3/22/05: ... can therefore function as potential antecedents (bar other mitigating conditions)... ----- i would have written "barring". outside of "bar none" and the quotation "it was all over bar the shouting" and (i now see) "bar N" (for some number N) 'except for N horses' in betting slang, this preposition was, i had thought, no longer in use. the most recent cite in the OED Online is from 1870. but here it is in the writing of a young woman (a new zealander, for what that's worth). and the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language mentions it twice, without comment, in lists of prepositions and exceptive expressions, suggesting that huddleston and pullum (both speakers of british english) think it has more general use. this is the very devil to google for, needless to say. has anyone been tracking this? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:32:03 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:32:03 -0500 Subject: re-ogling Message-ID: I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just observed: "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to the "oogling" variant. And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right interpretation first time through? Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession Larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Mar 23 01:33:34 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:33:34 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments from members there. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307759 My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Sam Clements From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:43:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:43:07 -0500 Subject: the preposition "bar" In-Reply-To: <4ca7986f9393ce660c9458a512255252@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:27 PM -0800 3/22/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from a handout at a stanford linguistics presentation 3/22/05: > >... can therefore function as potential antecedents (bar other >mitigating conditions)... > >----- > >i would have written "barring". outside of "bar none" and the >quotation "it was all over bar the shouting" Is this really extant in the U.S.? I gather it's normal in the UK, Australia, et al., but I've only ever heard "all over but the shouting" in these parts. Prepositional "bar" is pretty much restricted in the varieties of English with which I'm intimate to the "bar none" construction, although I'm unlikely to have hung out in the appropriate circles to have been exposed to the horse-betting slang. I agree that "barring" would be unremarkable in all these contexts, including that in the handout. Larry >and (i now see) "bar N" >(for some number N) 'except for N horses' in betting slang, this >preposition was, i had thought, no longer in use. the most recent cite >in the OED Online is from 1870. but here it is in the writing of a >young woman (a new zealander, for what that's worth). and the >Cambridge Grammar of the English Language mentions it twice, without >comment, in lists of prepositions and exceptive expressions, suggesting >that huddleston and pullum (both speakers of british english) think it >has more general use. > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 23 01:47:37 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:47:37 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <200503222033.1e4240c775d2@rly-na02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I call them "snow globes." And in a young adult novel, published in 2003, it says: "She picks up one of my snow globes and shakes it. Silver snow falls on four tiny fiddlers in Nashville. Dad still brings me a globe every time he goes on a business trip. No CDs or T-shirts of video games-- I get snow globes." (from "not As Crazy As I Seem" by George Harrar, Graphia Books, 2003.) So at least to that writer, "snow globes" is the current term. Patti Kurtz SClements at NEO.RR.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Sam Clements >Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > >Sam Clements > > -- Freeman - Long day? Straker - Long month! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 23 02:15:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:15:18 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Snow-globes. We had some on the whatnot shelf, as a paperweight on the desk, on the hall table, and elsewhere around the house in the '40's and '50's. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Sam Clements >Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > >Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Mar 23 03:37:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:37:59 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? Message-ID: While idly cruising through today's New York Times sports section, I metaphorically drove into a foot-deep pothole. In an article by Lee Jenkins titled "Stopping, Popping Those Jerseys" (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/sports/ncaabasketball/22uniforms.html), four paragraphs from the end, I blew my suspension on the following: >>>>> Power forwards who muscle inside for contested dunks are more likely to grab two fistfuls of fabric and thrust them forward violently. And when midmajor teams claim landmark victories, it is not uncommon to see the captain with his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping it in front of fans. <<<<< "Pulling it taught"?! Is anyone watching the store there? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 04:16:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:16:15 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights with the fake snow inside." Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were others at a similar loss for words? JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = from members there. = http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Sam Clements --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:18:10 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:18:10 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MW 11 and AHD 3, the ones I have on hand, give /o/ as in toe, go, first, followed with /a/ as in mop. Unfortunately for us sub Mason-Dixoners, no /u/as in google is given as an option. Damn. More dialect retraining. Speaking of which, or more accurately, writing of which, did anyone happen to see the PBS News Hour piece on dialect retraining in Prestonburg, KY late last week? I betcha they say /ugl/, and it seems that they are going to have to learn to do better. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader > of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just > observed: > > "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" > > --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now > that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the > factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the > difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to > the "oogling" variant. > > And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in > Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right > interpretation first time through? > > Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession > > > Larry > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:34:25 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:34:25 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note the adjectives: hillbilly and coal miner. These seem to be the current default bottom of the barrel sociolinguistic labels. I recognize that the alliteration is a factor as well. But surely those more widely versed in ethnic and regional derogatory labels could come up with alternate ethnic and regional groups that would satisfy the alliteration requirement. So can we speculate from these two examples that those poor folks in KY (see previous post) really do need dialect retraining to avoid the status of hillbilly or coal miner? JCS Wilson Gray writes: > When you come across a slang term for the first and ofttimes the only > time in the NYT magazine - hillbilly heroin - or in Time - > coal-miner's cocaine - it probably makes sense to take it with a > grain - or perhaps a box - of salt. > > -HWG > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Re: New (to me) slang >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> But, then, you're not a coal-miner. >>> >>> This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. >> >> "Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps >> equally factitious, term for this. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Mar 23 04:44:49 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:44:49 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <200503221301.1ddQvekf3NZFpA0@mx-a065a05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person who is large. BB -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a euphemism...." In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, IIRC. Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live TV. JL From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 04:21:16 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:21:16 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <000601c52f48$5581d510$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments >from members >there. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. I can't remember what word (if any) we used for those in my childhood. I asked two local persons born since 1985, and "snowglobe" was the immediate and unequivocal answer from both. I asked what it was called if it wasn't spherical but rather like a dome: they said it was a snowglobe anyway. Quick lookaround shows "snowglobe", "snowdome", "snowstorm toy", and (maybe only one instance) "shake-em-up snow scene" from 1975. I haven't found anything much before 1970, so I'm probably missing the earlier word(s). -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:54:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:54:22 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? In-Reply-To: <20050322221957.H97642@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0500 3/22/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >While idly cruising through today's New York Times sports section, I >metaphorically drove into a foot-deep pothole. In an article by Lee Jenkins >titled "Stopping, Popping Those Jerseys" >(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/sports/ncaabasketball/22uniforms.html), >four paragraphs from the end, I blew my suspension on the following: > >>>>> >Power forwards who muscle inside for contested dunks are more likely to grab >two fistfuls of fabric and thrust them forward violently. And when midmajor >teams claim landmark victories, it is not uncommon to see the captain with >his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping it >in front of fans. > <<<<< > >"Pulling it taught"?! Is anyone watching the store there? > Now, now, Mark. These *are* scholar-athletes we're talking about. Of course they're taught. The question is whether they larn. L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 05:12:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:12:53 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:44:49 -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >who is large. BB But "antonym" doesn't quite fit the bill either. I'm not surprised that "oxymoron" was pressed into service for this figure of speech, since the rhetorical term "antiphrasis" is only known to pointyheads. http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/A/antiphrasis.htm See this post for antiphrastic nicknames from the Spanish-American War: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502A&L=ads-l&P=R8497 --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 05:16:35 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:16:35 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Note the adjectives: hillbilly and coal miner. These seem to be the current >default bottom of the barrel sociolinguistic labels. I recognize that the >alliteration is a factor as well. But surely those more widely versed in >ethnic and regional derogatory labels could come up with alternate ethnic >and regional groups that would satisfy the alliteration requirement. So can >we speculate from these two examples that those poor folks in KY (see >previous post) really do need dialect retraining to avoid the status of >hillbilly or coal miner? I don't know that "coal miner" is comparable to "hillbilly". I suppose a coal miner makes a pretty good wage nowadays, and mining would seem to me to be a respectable occupation. I doubt that the typical coal miner would have any objection to being called a coal miner. On the other hand, I suspect that just about anybody referred to *in seriousness* as a hillbilly would object, and point [farther] out into the hills where the *real* hillbillies might be found. I suppose that the two terms for oxycodone are both factitious. I surely never heard either around these parts, despite the hills and coal mines (south of Pittsburgh) and despite the fact that oxycodone abuse/addiction is an everyday routine thing here (as elsewhere, I suppose): it's just the prosaic "wants some Perks", "wants some Oxycon". "Hillbilly heroin" is at least a partially apt metaphor since oxycodone is grossly similar to heroin pharmacologically AFAIK; the other metaphor is invented from double naivete, I think. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 05:21:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >who is large. BB Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and "huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? (I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) Larry >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Jonathan Lighter > > "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a >euphemism...." > >In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes >with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is >quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. > >The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, >IIRC. > >Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live >TV. > >JL From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 06:18:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:18:24 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: Sam Clements: >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Jonathan Lighter: > >Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three generations of >my family called 'em "those paperweights with the fake snow inside." Heh. I checked the script for _Citizen Kane_, since Kane picks one up in the "Rosebud" scene. The script calls it "one of those glass balls which are sold in novelty stores all over the world"! http://corky.net/scripts/citizenKane.html Newspaperarchive suggests that variations on "snow-scene paperweight" or "snow-storm paperweight" were common in the pre-1950 period... Fitchburg Sentinel Wednesday, November 08, 1922 Fitchburg, Massachusetts ...St Tel. 1129. PAPER WEIGHT, glass with SNOW SCENE, Tel. 2771.. Bridgeport Telegram Wednesday, December 09, 1925 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...according to size to Main lot SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS. They were last seen.....realistic SNOW STORMs inside used tor PAPER WEIGHTS 50c.. Appleton Post Crescent Tuesday, December 18, 1928 Appleton, Wisconsin ...those glass PAPERWEIGHTS depicting a SNOW STORM or an angel In flight. Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune Wednesday, August 16, 1933 Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin ...the spherical PAPERWEIGHT with the SNOW-STORM inside that stood on her desk.. Ruthven Free Press Wednesday, February 21, 1934 Ruthven, Iowa ...check under a glass PAPERWEIGHT with a SNOW SCENE .. Iowa City Press Citizen Thursday, December 01, 1938 Iowa City, Iowa ...51.25 Chrome Butter Dish .51.50 SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS 50c.. Nebraska State Journal Sunday, March 19, 1939 Lincoln, Nebraska ...Wedgwood. Dresden figures. SNOWSCENE PAPER-WEIGHTS.. Berkshire Evening Eagle Thursday, April 08, 1943 Pittsfield, Massachusetts ...CARDS for tho hoys in wrvloc SNOW SCENE PAPER WEIGHTS.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, October 14, 1943 Syracuse, New York ...SNO-SCENE PAPER- WEIGHTS Fascinating PAPERWEIGHTS.. Nebraska State Journal Wednesday, June 14, 1944 Lincoln, Nebraska ...flowers 1.00 to 15.00. PAPER WEIGHT "SNOW SCENE" type.. Clearfield Progress Friday, November 17, 1944 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...by "KLETNERT c Best Shield Made SNOW SCENE PAPER WEIGHTS 79c .. Sheboygan Press Wednesday, November 22, 1944 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...hundreds of Gift Suggestions SNOWBALL PAPER WEIGHT .89c. Sheboygan Press Monday, December 17, 1945 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...l.00 box Ripple and Vellum long SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS...89c.. Mansfield News Journal Monday, December 16, 1946 Mansfield, Ohio ...young who is not intrigued with a SNOW BALL PAPER WEIGHT? Berkshire Evening Eagle Friday, December 20, 1946 Pittsfield, Massachusetts ...5-Year genuine 2.50 to 4.95 SNOWSTORM PAPER WEIGHTS........ 69c Bridgeport Telegram Monday, October 20, 1947 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...flurry whenever you wishl .SNOWBALL PAPER WEIGHTS in assorted designs. Dixon Evening Telegraph Saturday, December 13, 1947 Dixon, Illinois ...CHRISTMAS GIFT FRANK DEUTSCH SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS.. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 06:34:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:34:48 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >>?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >>someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >>who is large. BB > >Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an >oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and >"huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a >silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of >these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? A "flesh name"? According to Wiktionary (yikes), "sarconym" is a term for the meat of a particular animal (beef, mutton, venison, pork). But they label this a "protologism", their term for "a word which has only recently been devised": . >(I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh >rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) Likewise, "contronym" is already taken, as it's Richard Lederer's designation for a word that's its own antonym (aka "Janus word", "antagonym", "autoantonym", etc.). I'd stick with good old "antiphrasis", even if it doesn't have a catchy "-nym" form (antiphrastonym?). --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 08:25:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:25:18 EST Subject: How you start/How you finish (1919); "Hanka's Table" in today's New York Times Message-ID: "IT'S NOT HOW YOU START, IT'S HOW YOU FINISH" ... The New Jersey Nets now have a five-game winning streak. Jason Kidd checked his deodorant ("Winning is the best deodorant") .. and then provided another clutch sport cliche. This is probably from horseracing, later made popular by the Broadway musical SEESAW (1973). The Nets next play Memphis on Thursday, and expect them to play with heart, miles and miles and miles of heart:: ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/sports/basketball/23nets.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/sports/basketball/23nets.html) As for the three-game homestand the Nets kicked off Tuesday night, Kidd conceded, "This homestand is big for us." And the winning streak? "It couldn't come at a better time," he said. "It's not how you start. It's how you finish." ... ... HOW YOU START + HOW YOU FINISH--4,280 Google hits, 167 Google Groups hits WGERE YOU START + WHERE YOU FINISH--4,450 Google hits, 262 Google hits ... (GOOGLE) _http://www.hollywoodlitsales.com/cf/journal/dspJournal.cfm?intID=1843_ (http://www.hollywoodlitsales.com/cf/journal/dspJournal.cfm?intID=1843) I'm a big football fan. I've watched enough games in my life to pick up all the cliches and superstitions the announcers, coaches and players talk about. My two favorite are : "I'd rather be lucky than talented" and "It's not how you start, it's how you finish." ... (GOOGLE) _http://vikesgeek.blogspot.com/2004/12/its-not-how-you-start-but-how-you.html_ (http://vikesgeek.blogspot.com/2004/12/its-not-how-you-start-but-how-you.html) Saturday, December 25, 2004 "It's Not How You Start But How You Finish. . . " Coaches love to trot out the pat cliches. In part, this is the result of the reporters' need for a quick take. Realizing that the reporter can/will only use the juiciest part of the interview, coaches simply do the editing for the reporters and try to ensure that what comes out the other end is a sanitized, safe statement. But coaches also resort to cliches to explain away the inexplicable and the unforeseen. And it is in this respect that Vikings' head coach Mike Tice has so often trotted out the refrain that "it's not how you start, but how you finish that matters." ... (GOOGLE) _http://www.nodanw.com/biographies/dorothy_fields.htm_ (http://www.nodanw.com/biographies/dorothy_fields.htm) Working with Cy Coleman, Dorothy Fields' career got a fresh wind. She stepped easily into the seedy world of the Fan-Dango Ballroom and the musical _Sweet Charity_ (http://www.nodanw.com/shows_s/sweet_charity.htm) - surely as far from Fred and Ginger as one can get? Her last hit song was from her second collaboration with Coleman, _Seesaw _ (http://www.nodanw.com/shows_s/seesaw.htm) (1973). Fittingly, it was entitled 'It's Not Where You Start, It's Where You Finish'. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2okISQrVGPtosH22mSNWdonEA5e2xgIlNg==) Wednesday, October 23, 1912 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+where+you+start+and+where+you+fin ish+AND) ...doesn't make any difference WHERE YOU START, or WHERE YOU FINISH when YOU've.....Bt. lyonls, <'liy. (imaha, itiutiuijuo AND I >a.vciipoi't, AND oilier whore ten.. ... _Bee _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2nhDmuRKWxjKIFdROiQJOXi7Ek+EMOTAAEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 17, 1927 _Danville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:danville+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Virginia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:virginia+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...or years What counts is not HOW YOU START, but HOW YOU FINISH, as proved by.....SALE Bow badly we all want s. Utopia AND HOW readily we will listen to man.. ... _Bridgeport Standard Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2uYzjZQsXXWUKMpi09uQE2F+JpT0dnhYR0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, February 28, 1919 _Bridgeport,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bridgeport+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Connecticut_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:connecticut+how+you+sta rt+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...Bantam. They tell YOU it isn't HOW YOU START but HOW YOU FINISH .that counts.....other was washing the gore from hANDs AND face AND body AND feeling to see if.. ... _Lincoln Star _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2ukm7vWP2Pnx/EBVmH0Msh5VLV5dv1efAkIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 17, 1927 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...define than What counts is not HOW YOU START, but HOW YOU FINISH, as proven by.....He explaine< the economy of. the plan AND sHOWed HOW it "will profit in th.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2hJQI6QRzqDc3mXE0xAova0Mf0xxQpgAiUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, May 07, 1953 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND ) ...vrith Arearo Bntler matter HOW- YOU START so HOW- YOU FINISH. We beat Yanks.....will play a Famer as a first sacker AND broth-.season after winning 16 AND.. ... _Trenton Evening Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2vhrjeXc9AzaFEq+2Tt+etbOnBG3+70Zy0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 27, 1919 _Trenton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:trenton+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _New Jersey_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new jersey+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...They tell YOU It isn't HOW YOU START but HOW YOU FINISH that counts.....HANDLING MADE IMA I Crouch Attack AND HOW to Use Head to Puzzle Opponents.. ... _Daily Times News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2kwzfLmLH2TSHxfV8/mnybWpc4zW1ehoEUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Burlington,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:burlington+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _North Carolina_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north carolina+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...auto race tracks isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that can.....Arises To Coaching Move students AND the school booster organization have.. ... _The Odessa American _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2uC1ZWijy1bNIRRPkysmFYE8HivETzQsmEIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 02, 1972 _Odessa,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:odessa+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Texas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:texas+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND ) ...I said 'it doesn't matter WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH. have to say.....AND four- time winner Betsy who carded AND Judy who had a 76. who braved rain.. ... _Oshkosh Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2nIQTazNo9TO8AhgXVk89pv4FDCTfkQy10IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+where+you+start+and+wh ere+you+finish+AND) ...race tracks that says, isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that counts.....Fred AND Leonard, all of Neshkoro, AND Ewald, Westfield; 11 grANDchildren.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspapera rchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2qeGzeGT0yh+XJ/ApX8HJz/xw3Q5EHWiAkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 02, 1972 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...I said 'it doesn't matter WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH.' "I'd have.....near the state's flood disaster area AND USAC AND track officials bickered.. ... _Washington C H Record Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2ht1/dLKuEZP5GPOUrl42/b4/sUbuj/T+kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Washington Court House,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:washington court house+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...race tracks that j isn't WHERE YOU START I but WHERE YOU FINISH that 1 can.....hero's i Darrell Upp in the hurdles AND Of 17.5 seconds AND a first ini e.. ... ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2re7Rk3Dns4XnlkTcRB2eRpSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+where+you+start+and+where+yo u+finish+AND) ...tracks that says. "It isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that counts.....son of Mr. AND Mrs. Gordon Lake Sr.. AND David Brown, son of Mr. AND Mrs.. ... _The Daily Report _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2iSXslgQUoiW8VgQpBp7aleTLn8WtnEupw==) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Ontario,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ontario+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+A ND) ...auto race tracks that isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that can.....AND re- turn to the Forum next Friday AND Sunday. While the Lakers AND Hawks.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FINISH THE JOB._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=330217272&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111565663&client Id=65882) The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Apr 20, 1920. p. II4 (1 page) : How you start is important, very important, but in the end it is how you finish that counts. ... The victor in the race is not the one who dashes off swiftest, but the one who leads at the finish. ... In the race for success speed is less than stamina. ... (...) --Forbes Magazine. ... _Notes of the Game_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=369544632&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111565412&clie ntId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 7, 1920. p. 15 (1 page) : "It isn't where you start the season, but where you finish," remarked George Burns today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ... OT: "HANKA'S TABLE" IN TODAY'S NEW YORK TIMES ... HANKA'S TABLE? Not the hot dog? This gets a feature story in the New York Times? Like no one has ever done a book on Polish food before? ... I couldn't be more depressed. ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/dining/23hanka.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/dining/23hanka.html) Holiday Tribute to the Homeland By _FLORENCE FABRICANT_ (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=FLORENCE FABRICANT&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=FLORENCE FABRICANT&inline=nyt-per) Published: March 23, 2005 FOOD can provide sustenance even when the cupboard is bare. Memoirs of food in times of privation have been written about places as far-flung as Russia, China, Eastern Europe and the American West. And now Hanka Sawka, a Polish immigrant, has added her voice to this canon, recalling the hearty soups and rich cakes that families managed to serve, especially for holidays like Easter, despite shortages under the Communist regime In her book, "At Hanka's Table" (Lake Isle Press, 2004), which she wrote with her daughter, Hanna Maria Sawka, Mrs. Sawka shines a spotlight on her life in Poland and the strong emotional ties her native country still holds for her, even after nearly 30 years of living in the West. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 09:43:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:43:39 EST Subject: Smartness of whips & steel traps (1868 and 1826) Message-ID: SMART AS A WHIP-- 14,600 Google hits, 2,550 Google Groups hits SMART AS A STEEL--163 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits MIND LIKE A STEEL--8,050 Google hits, 6,720 Google Groups hits STEEL TRAP MIND--579 Google hits, 383 Google Groups hits ... David Letterman's show on Tuesday had the lovely Jessica Alba lasso him. He followed this up with the next guest, who was an author who discussed string theory and the origin of the universe. It was like booking trained monkeys followed by Einstein on the same show. ... Jessica Alba was smart as a...whip? Smart as a steel trap? A whip can smart, but is it smart in and of itself? Who would win if you book a whip and a steel trap on JEOPARDY!? If your whip gets stuck in a steel trap, how smart is that? ... I haven't checked Early American Newspapers or Literature Online yet. ... ... (OED) (steel trap) 1735 SOMERVILE Chase III. Argt., The *Steel-Trap described. 1775 [see _SPRING-GUN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=smart+as+a+&first=1&max_to_show=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id =xgjS-HhfHjK-5971&control_no=50236729&result_place=5&xrefword=spring-gun) 1]. 1827 Hone's Every-day Bk. II. 906 The stranger..is in jeopardy of falling into the..fangs of a steel-trap. 1872 _MRS. STOWE_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-s5.html#mrs-stowe) Oldtown Fireside Stories 57 She was a little thin woman, but tough as Inger rubber, and smart as a steel trap. 1899 A. M. BINSTEAD Gal's Gossip 127 He posted sentinel, bright and ready as a new steel-trap. 1921 _D. H. LAWRENCE_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-l.html#d-h-lawrence) Tortoises 32 Little old man, Scuffling beside her..Parting his steel-trap face, so suddenly and seizing her scaly ankle. 1937 _E. S. GARDNER_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-g.html#e-s-gardner) Case of Dangerous Dowager i. 8 You're going up against a crook who is smart as a steel trap. 1972 Publisher's Weekly 17 Apr. 19/1 He's rather amused by what he calls his steeltrap memory. ‘I have a tight grip on things in inverse proportion to their importance.’ ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _CITY INTELLIGENCE.; OUR DELEGATION TO CHARLESTON. Departure of the Nashville Who was on Board, and a Hint at what they Suffered. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=79175064&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111568379&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 19, 1860. p. 8 (1 page) : The reporter of the _Herald_, who is buttonholeing "honorable gentlemen," and who looks as smart as a steel-trap--is welcome to _all_ the news, "exclusive" and all. ... _PERSONATING GOULD'S SON.; THE PEOPLE ON STAMFORD TURN OUT TO SEE THE YOUNG MAN. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=100927518&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111569306&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 9, 1887. p. 1 (1 page) : Besides Johnny Simpson said it was Mr. Gould, and everybody here knows that Johnny Simpson is Mrs. Simpson's son and just as smart as a whip. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Wilmingtonian And Delaware Advertiser _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2jhutOd4Ad+wTE5SB/B+er36Yq7yt+q+gEIF+CsZY mrz) Thursday, April 20, 1826 _Wilmington,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wilmington+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) _Delaware_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:delaware+smart+as+a+stee l+trap+AND) ...to put your sheeps eyes on. SMART AS A STEEL-trAp, she'll do the business for.. ... Pg. 1, col.5: There's Miss Wilhelmina Scroggins, just about sixteen. She;s the girl to put your sheeps eyes on. Smart as a steel trap, she'll do the business for you, and make a mason of you. ... ... _Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2h6FUUtxVrYsjqWCJB+BY7R+C/D8AbE0ug==) Tuesday, January 11, 1876 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) ...A vis in this section, AS SMART AS A STEEL trAp cAn cut put Any of the.....heArt, of us to clo his Su he mAy the SMART, Betley lie's A hundred. And.. ... _Decatur Daily Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=olJOpJH/3rKKID/6NLMW2sPSuzjNllzwsTh1EWObh+kRXo9KEVIjaw==) Wednesday, March 24, 1886 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...rebuking him. She wAfl A girl And SMART AS A. WHIP. goes A person who bAg.. ... _Daily Era _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2nM/LzxMe8RXM+4etaSOsLFddz5sfzuTIkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, September 18, 1886 _Bradford,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bradford+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...She- is About eleven yeArs of Age And SMART AS A WHIP. The Absence of Prof.. ... _Freeborn County Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2hviI+PXffgYY7CU81j31uhwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, November 28, 1883 _Albert Lea,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:albert lea+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Minnesota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:minnesota+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...And sech; A reAl high-flyer he wAS, SMART AS A WHIP, climbin' every where.....And them dAys. "Mis' Mills wAS A SMART womAn And A womAn, with lots of.. ... _Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2udSM0f4A+Q5CAxokQkiFuJwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, November 28, 1883 _Albert Lea,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:albert lea+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Minnesota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:minnesota+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...And sech; A reAl high-flyer he wAS, SMART AS A WHIP, climbin' every where.....country And them dAys. Mills wAS A SMART womAn And A womAn, with lots of.. ... _Decatur Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vT1H6Y5z1fcO/A18wqyL2VwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, March 24, 1886 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...rebuking him. She wAfl A girl And SMART AS A. WHIP. goes A person who bAg.. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Who was she?, or, The soldier's best glory Whittlesey, Elsie Leigh. There was some discussion here back in January about fanciful slang coinages that appeared in the comic strip "For Better Or For Worse" ("gig", roadside", etc.): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0501d&L=ads-l&D=0#54 The "Comics Curmudgeon" site considers another FBoFW coinage: "foob" (a blend of "fool" and "boob"): . "Foob" appeared in FBoFW on Mar. 22 and Mar. 23, but it's apparently been used several times in past strips (by tweener April and her friends). Unlike "gig" and "roadside", "foob" seems like it could actually catch on. One contributor to the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics.strips last June said that he had used "foob" in the past "merely as a more insulting, patronizing form of 'feeb'". It also suggests "foobar", of course. Here are links to the two recent strips (note also the pluralization of "doofus" as "doofi" in the Mar. 23 strip): http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050322.html http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050323.html --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 10:50:49 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:50:49 -0500 Subject: "Foob" Watch Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:15:59 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Here are links to the two recent strips (note also the pluralization of >"doofus" as "doofi" in the Mar. 23 strip): > >http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050322.html >http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050323.html The first appearance of "foob" (and its explanation as a blend of "fool" and "boob") can be found on this page (scroll down to May 24-25, 2004): http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/2004_05.php Oddly, the May 25 strip also uses "prag", which is quite inappropriate for anyone familiar with the HBO series _Oz_, set in a maximum-security prison. "Prag" was a slang term made up by the show's writers, defined by this site as "an inmate who is under the control of another inmate": http://www.angelfire.com/ny/oz4life/lingo.html In the case of FBoFW, "prag" is apparently a blend of "pain" and "drag". --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 13:16:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:16:55 -0800 Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) Message-ID: "Fox & Friends" (Fox News Channel), about five minutes ago: "This kid in Minnesota...assassinated all those students." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 23 13:47:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:47:17 -0500 Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Fox & Friends" (Fox News Channel), about five minutes ago: > >"This kid in Minnesota...assassinated all those students." I musta missed some reports, if they stated that the kid had used hashish. OTOH, perhaps the statements that he was a 'goth' qualify him as a member of a secret society of evil-doers, with implications of substance abuse... Then again, if he was severely delusional, he mighta thought that all of his victims were just figments of his imagination, mere characters in his personal psychodrama. In which case, could the Fox commentator be implying that this was 'character assassination'? Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 14:31:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:31:21 -0800 Subject: "diva" = notorious woman Message-ID: Fox News Live, about twenty minutes ago: "Will the ACLU get these drug-dealing divas back on the street ?" 13 million "diva / divas" hits on Web alone, many of them evidently in this sense. This word seems to have begun mutating about 15 years ago, as I recall, but there's usually been a strong connotation of positive celebrity involved. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 15:26:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <18123.69.142.143.59.1111559688.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 1:34 AM -0500 3/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >>>?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >>>someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >>>who is large. BB >> >>Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an >>oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and >>"huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a >>silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of >>these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? > >A "flesh name"? According to Wiktionary (yikes), "sarconym" is a term for >the meat of a particular animal (beef, mutton, venison, pork). But they >label this a "protologism", their term for "a word which has only recently >been devised": . I hereby retract that suggestion, which was faute de mieux at best, especially now that we have the mieux. > >>(I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh >>rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) > >Likewise, "contronym" is already taken, as it's Richard Lederer's >designation for a word that's its own antonym (aka "Janus word", >"antagonym", "autoantonym", etc.). also "antilogy" (cf. the Linguist List archive on "Words that are their own opposites", a.k.a. "The longest thread"), as well as "enantionym", proposed on this list by Lynne Murphy and me.* >I'd stick with good old "antiphrasis", even if it doesn't have a catchy >"-nym" form (antiphrastonym?). > Indeed. I should have known the Greeks would have a word for it. larry *Now that I review my files (reproduced below), I see that Lynne and I settled worked out that designation in a semi-offline exchange, which is why it doesn't show up on google. So I hereby repropose it, for the "cleave", "sanction" type of case. Note the date of this exchange--you'd think there were other things that might have on our mind at the time... ======== From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: enantiosemy To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU --On Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:01 pm +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on "enantiosemy".) Yes, I've got that one noted as well--although I have no idea why it would be anyone's favorite! Lynne ======= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:49:13 +0800 To: Lynne Murphy From: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: Re: enantiosemy Lynne, ...Why NOT "antilogy"? There's "anti-", and there's Xlogy, a standard stem for words with an X character; compare "tautology" (lit. 'same word'), "haplology", etc. Of course -nym is even more standard in this use, but "antinym" clearly won't do. I would actually vote for "enantionymy" and "enantionym", if that's a possible choice, but you have to admit "anti-" is a more recognized prefix, although "enantio-" more clearly denotes (or "should" denote) oppositeness, as opposed to againstness. L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:06:05 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:06:05 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: Some years ago a man teaching a course here on baseball in literature asked me if the library could get 25 copies of "Babe Ruth caught in a snowstorm", by John Alexander Graham (Boston, Houghton Mifflin, 1973), describing it as the best baseball novel ever written. He wanted each of his prospective students to have a copy to take home. I found a copy in the Brooklyn Public and read it myself. If he had described it as the worst baseball novel ever written he would have come closer, in my opinion. In any event, the title refers to a snowglobe with a figure of Babe Ruth in it, which figures throughout the book. As it turned out, I managed to acquire no copies of this book. Nonetheless, I'm sure it is available in better libraries everywhere; it's just that in this instance Bobst is an abjectly inferior library. If anyone has access to a copy, you might check for what this object is called. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:16 pm Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights with the > fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I never > noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were others > at a similar loss for words? > > JL > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------- > ------------ > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball > on a = > stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused > the = > snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > > We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some > comments = > from members there. = > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > > My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900- > 1950 = > period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > > Sam Clements > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:44:09 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:44:09 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion Message-ID: Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > >-Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >this in do time. >Delia Do tell! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:56:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:56:33 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <5b9b3625b9b32d.5b9b32d5b9b362@nyu.edu> Message-ID: I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation informant judgment. She replies as below. Larry ============== >What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >upside-down and then put them back right side up again? uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:17:22 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:17:22 -0500 Subject: milkshaking Message-ID: This word has been appearing frequently of late in the horseracing news in the [New York] Daily News; "Milkshaking " is the illegal administration of a mixture of bicarbonate of soda, sugar and electrolytes to a horse in hopes of reducing fatigue, thus enhancing its performance. Daily News, February 10, 2005. This noxious-sounding mixture, which will no doubt catch on among us bipeds now that steroids are under a cloud, is called a milkshake. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From rshuy at MONTANA.COM Wed Mar 23 16:05:35 2005 From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:05:35 -0600 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: <200503231645.j2NGjNON011922@barbelith.montana.com> Message-ID: on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > >> >> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >> this in do time. >> Delia > > Do tell! > And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible maturity benefits. From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 17:25:35 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:25:35 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <20050323041615.82333.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights > with the fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I > never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were > others at a similar loss for words? > > JL Yes, me too. I can't remember what we called them; even 'paperweight' doesn't help, because I don't think they were used in that way among my family and acquaintances. They were purely decorative, and I associate them with Christmas. It has seemed really strange to me that I couldn't remember a name for them, because they were very familiar. I've been watching out for references in recent years and have seen only 'snowglobe' and 'waterglobe' (sometimes hyphenated or open), as far as I can remember right now, with 'snowglobe' the more common name. They're often featured in mail-order gift catalogues (e.g. Smithsonian, Boston Museum, Metropolitan Museum); I guess people collect them now. No one I knew of "collected" them years ago -- you just had one that was displayed especially during the holidays. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:31:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:31:20 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:56 AM 3/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation >informant judgment. She replies as below. > >Larry >============== > >>What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >>sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >>that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >>upside-down and then put them back right side up again? > >uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" >first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, >actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. That's a great elicitation question, Larry! (Or should I say "illicitation," as many of my students do?) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:27:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:27:26 -0500 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:05 AM 3/23/2005 -0600, you wrote: >on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > > Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - > > > > Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > > > >> > >> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I > >> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community > >> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a > >> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes > >> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just > >> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on > >> this in do time. > >> Delia > > > > Do tell! > > >And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity >leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible >maturity benefits. I hadn't even noticed that one! But since I'm fast on your heels, I fondly hope for the same. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 17:40:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:40:29 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation informant judgment. She replies as below. Larry ============== >What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >upside-down and then put them back right side up again? uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:42:42 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:42:42 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <000601c52f48$5581d510$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 18:02:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:02:09 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I also associate them with Christmas. Have they become more upscale in recent decades ? The only ones I recall seeing as a boy were small and plastic, obviously intended to appeal to children. Now, of course, they can be quite large and pricey. JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights > with the fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I > never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were > others at a similar loss for words? > > JL Yes, me too. I can't remember what we called them; even 'paperweight' doesn't help, because I don't think they were used in that way among my family and acquaintances. They were purely decorative, and I associate them with Christmas. It has seemed really strange to me that I couldn't remember a name for them, because they were very familiar. I've been watching out for references in recent years and have seen only 'snowglobe' and 'waterglobe' (sometimes hyphenated or open), as far as I can remember right now, with 'snowglobe' the more common name. They're often featured in mail-order gift catalogues (e.g. Smithsonian, Boston Museum, Metropolitan Museum); I guess people collect them now. No one I knew of "collected" them years ago -- you just had one that was displayed especially during the holidays. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 18:40:29 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:40:29 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050322231107.02fdd0c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: The earliest citation in M-W's files for "snowglobe" is 1986, and for "snowdome" is 1990. However, here's an interesting (solo) cite for "snowstorm": Pleasanter it is to contemplate such franker, non-injurious toys as the miniature 'snowstorm' in its water-filled glass glove containing a white sediment which, when the glove was shaken, swirled around in a manner uncommonly like the real thing. In each globe there was fixed an object on which the 'snow' could settle, a chalet or castle for choice, before which stiffly stood a tiny figure flying a balloon of coloured cork. . . . Not that many of the real old 'snowstorms' can have survived the stress of years and frequent shakings, if only because the 'castle' had a knack of coming adrift from its foundations and whirling around its little world in a manner unbefitting any soberly disposed fortress. p. 153 F. Gordon Roe Victorian Furniture Roy Publishers, Great Britain 1952 Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 19:15:37 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:15:37 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <424171CD.3448.A62E790@localhost> Message-ID: Oops! Forgot to check the OED. And guess what -- sense 2 of "snow-storm" is defined as "a paperweight or toy in the form of a transparent dome or globe containing a representation of a scene and loose snow-like particles, which, when shaken, creates the appearance of a snow-storm." Quotations supporting this definition range from 1926-1975. I have to think that this term was more common in British English than American, given our lack of citations and the absence of the word from any of the unabridged dictionaries (unless W3's sense 2 "something resembling a snowstorm" counts -- but I don't think it does). Joanne Despres From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 23 19:16:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:52 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I didn't follow the earlier thread, but I've always said [ag at l]. I don't think I've ever heard [og at l], in fact, in either Minnesota or Ohio--not that the word is in common use. First listing in the dictionaries, huh??? At 11:18 PM 3/22/2005, you wrote: >MW 11 and AHD 3, the ones I have on hand, give /o/ as in toe, go, first, >followed with /a/ as in mop. Unfortunately for us sub Mason-Dixoners, no >/u/as in google is given as an option. Damn. More dialect retraining. > >Speaking of which, or more accurately, writing of which, did anyone happen >to see the PBS News Hour piece on dialect retraining in Prestonburg, KY late >last week? I betcha they say /ugl/, and it seems that they are going to >have to learn to do better. > >JCS > >Laurence Horn writes: > >>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>observed: >> >>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >> >>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >>the "oogling" variant. >> >>And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in >>Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right >>interpretation first time through? >> >>Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession >> >> >>Larry > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 19:40:52 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:40:52 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. Alan Baragona From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 19:48:57 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:48:57 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323141323.032142c0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, dInIs >Laurence Horn writes: > >>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>observed: >> >>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >> >>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to the "oogling" variant. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Mar 23 19:53:25 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:25 -0000 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: > Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great > minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not > in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations > (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 20:19:43 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:19:43 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Just found this on a British web site called Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/338.html). Does anyone know this book and whether it is authoritative? GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE -- "Often quoted in jest today, this saying originated in the seventeenth century as the comic-sounding 'Great wits jump.' Daubridgecourt Belchier first recorded the saying in 'Hans Beer-Pot' (1618) as 'Good wits doe iumpe (agree).'...The expression 'Great minds jump' appeared in the late 1800s..." From "Wise Words and Wives' Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New York, 1993). Alan B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great >> minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not >> in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations >> (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. > > Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of > 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 20:24:45 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:24:45 -0500 Subject: Fw: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: P.S. Barlett's DOES have "good/great wits jump." "Good wits jump; a word to the wise is enough" is found in the early 18th-century translation of Don Quixote by Peter Anthony Motteux. "Great wits jump" is found in Sterne's Tristram Shandy in the mid-18th century. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Baragona" To: Cc: "Paul Baragona" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:19 PM Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > Just found this on a British web site called Phrase Finder > (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/338.html). Does > anyone know this book and whether it is authoritative? > GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE -- "Often quoted in jest today, this saying > originated in the seventeenth century as the comic-sounding 'Great wits > jump.' Daubridgecourt Belchier first recorded the saying in 'Hans > Beer-Pot' (1618) as 'Good wits doe iumpe (agree).'...The expression 'Great > minds jump' appeared in the late 1800s..." From "Wise Words and Wives' > Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk > Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New > York, 1993). > > Alan B. > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 23 20:49:40 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:40 -0600 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language Message-ID: With sincere apologies for a question I know was answered before, can someone re-post a list of books (mainly science fiction) that dealt with language which I know was posted here last year. I tried searching the archives with no results-- I'm obviously not using the right terms. Thanks a heap!!! Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 21:21:49 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:21:49 EST Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------- No one reads the archives? No one? Boy, am I depressed. No one recognizes what I do. If I gave away the same free cars that Oprah did, people wouldn't like the color. Again, from the ADS-L archives: The OED Appeals List has "great minds think alike," out-of-order under "mind." It needs an antedate of 1873. Is there some guy bagging groceries at Wal-Mart twelve hours a day doing all OED's science terms?...Wright American Fiction (where this is from) will be down from 8 a.m. until noon on Friday. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Print Source: Was she engaged? Jonquil, Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott, 1871. Pg. 234: "By Jove, old fellow, you have hit it How did you know so well what I was going to day? Ah! I know now! 'Great minds think alike,' is the old saying." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 21:38:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan Transit Authority) nicknames? ... Barry Popik ("the new Rodney") ... ... ... The MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority) has quickly been getting a bad reputation for high fares and poor service. This has created some uncomplimentary nicknames. "Metrocard" was introduced in 1994. ... ... ... ... 23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: More Trouble Ahead? ... ... ... (Trademark) Word MarkMETROCARD Goods and ServicesIC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Magnetically encoded, pre-paid cards used as payment device for payment of subway and bus fare transactions. FIRST USE: 19941100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941100 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number76522888 Filing DateJune 16, 2003 Current Filing Basis1A Original Filing Basis1A Published for OppositionFebruary 15, 2005 Owner(APPLICANT) Metropolitan Transportation Authority CORPORATION NEW YORK 347 Madison Avenue New York NEW YORK 10017 Attorney of RecordLOUIS S. EDERER Prior Registrations1945002;2004170 Type of MarkTRADEMARK RegisterPRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead IndicatorLIVE From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 22:50:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:50:48 -0800 Subject: "schlock" = nonsense Message-ID: "Where does Jennings get off simultaneously bashing the Roswell [UFO] story and yet taking all the other schlock so seriously?" -- Chris Mooney, "Out of Balance," http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/ufos/ (Mar. 3, 2005). "Schlock" here must mean "nonsense," "baloney," and not third-rate entertainment or shoddy goods. I don't believe I've seen the word so used before. However, "Does anyone really believe this schlock?" --"How to Rob the Banks Legally," Usenet: misc.wanted, July 19, 1996. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 23:53:28 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language In-Reply-To: <4241D664.8030407@netscape.net> Message-ID: Here is the list, I think. http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/sf.html -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 00:32:25 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:32:25 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, >I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, > >dInIs Yeah, but her detective/narrator, Kinsey Millhone, is from Santa Barbara...er, Santa Teresa, or technically from nearby Lompoc, if memory serves. And who knows where the woman who reads the audio book is from (but it doesn't sound like Kentucky to me). On the other hand, I lived in California for years and never noticed an /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological variants were involved... Larry > >>Laurence Horn writes: >> >>>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>>observed: >>> >>>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >>> >>>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >the "oogling" variant. From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 24 01:08:28 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:08:28 -0600 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language In-Reply-To: <200503231853.6b34242016c139@rly-na06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Bingo! That's it. A thousand heartfelt thank yous, Doug! Patti douglas at NB.NET wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Sci fi novels featuring language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Here is the list, I think. > >http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/sf.html > >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - Long day? Straker - Long month! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 24 01:15:58 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:15:58 -0800 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2005, at 4:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ... I lived in California for years and never noticed an > /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? > Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time > dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological > variants were involved... i'm an /ogl/ person too. i'd noticed the occasional person, over the past few years (at least), saying /agl/ ( but took it to be a spelling pronunciation) or /ugl/ (which i took to be an influence of "google" or "goo-goo eyes") and didn't make notes of the events. one never knows. arnold From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Mar 24 02:09:06 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:09:06 -0600 Subject: "Foob" Watch Message-ID: "Feeb" seems to be doubly derogatory - apparently as a shortening of "feeble" and used by non-FBI law enforcement to refer to the FBI as "the feebs" with a similar implication. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" One contributor to the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics.strips last June said that he had used "foob" in the past "merely as a more insulting, patronizing form of 'feeb'". It also suggests "foobar", of course. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 03:57:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:57:58 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: OT: GOODBYE AOL? My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A DILLER, A DOLLAR: RHYMES AND SAYINGS FOR THE TEN O'CLOCK SCHOLAR compiled by Lillian Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell 1955 The author also wrote two books on autograph albums and one title called "Yours Till Niagara Falls" (see ADS-L archives). This book is 150 pages, loaded with interesting stuff such as "Liar, Liar" and "Never went to Yale." I'll research them maybe in another post, or by request. Pg. 2: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, All godd children go to Heaven. 2.3.4.5.6.7.8. All bad children have to wait. Pg. 3: Here comes teacher with a hickory stick; You better get ready for arithmetic. Pg. 6: One's none, Two's some, Three's many, Four's aplenty. I love you a bushel, I love you a peck, I love you a hug Around the neck. Pg. 9: To a semicircle, add a circle, The same again repeat; Add to these a triangle And then you'll have a treat. (COCOA) Pg. 10: Sixty seconds make a minute, How much good can I do in it? Sixty minutes make an hour, All the good that's in my power. Pg. 11: Multiplication is vexation, Division is as bad; The Rule of Three, it puzzles me, And fractions drive me mad. If one and one are two, And one and one do marry, How is it in a year or two, There's two and one to carry? Thirty days hath September, April, June, and November, Save February; the rest have thirty-one Unless you hear from Washington. Pg. 14: Come, dear teacher, hear my say What I can of A B C A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S and T U V W and X Y Z. Now you've heard my A B C, Tell me what you think of me. A-B, ab, catch a crab, G-O, go, let it go. Pg. 15: While a baker was kneading his dough, A weight fell down on his tough, He suddenly exclaimed, "Ough!" Because it had hurt him sough. Pg. 16: Put i before e Except after c, Or when sounded like a, As in neighbor and neigh; And except seize and seizure And also leisure Weird, height, and either, Forfeit and neither. A pretty deer is dear to me, A hare with downy hair, A hart I love with all my heart, But barely bear a bear. Pg. 17: Bill had a billboard and also a board bill but the board bill bored Bill so that he sold the billboard to pay the board bill. Pg. 18: My first is a circle, My second a cross; If you meet my whole, Look out for a toss. (O-X) Do you realize that your real eyes tell real lies to me? Pg. 20: On a hill there is a mill, >From the mill, there is a walk, Under the walk, there is a key, Can you spell this name for me? (Milwaukee) Pg. 21: A knife and a fork, A bottle and a cork. That the way to spell New York. Pg. 22 What starts with a T, Ends with a T, And is full of T? (Teapot) Pg. 26: Ain't ain't in the dictionary no more, So I ain't gonna say ain't no more. Ain't that good? _Heading for a letter:_ Jersey City, Jersey state, Excuse me, honey, I forgot the date. Pg. 28: The wind riz And then it blew. The rain friz And then it snew. Spring has sprung, The grass is riz. I wonder where The flowers is? Spring has sprung, Fall has fell, WInter's here And it's cold as heck. Pg. 29: The swan swam over the sea, Swim, swan, swim. The swan swam back again; Well swam, swan. The sea ceaseth, but the forsythis sufficeth us. The water fell down the mill dam, _slam_. That's poetry. The water fell down the mill dam, _helter-skelter_. That's blank verse. Pg. 30: A kiss is a noun Both common and proper, But not always approved By mama and papa. A kiss is a noun, Standing up or sitting down, Indicative mood, present tense, Taken by those with common sense. Pg. 38: Amo, amas, I had a little lass; Amas, amat, She grew very fat; Amat, amamus, She grew very famous; Amamus, amatis, I fed her potatoes; Amatis, amant But she died of want. Moods and tenses Bother my senses; Adverbs, pronouns, make me roar; Irregular verbs My sleep disturb, They are a regular bore. Pg. 43: A B C D goldfish, M N O goldfish. O S A R D goldfish, C M? O I C. (Abie, see the goldfish, Them ain't no goldfish. Oh, yes they are the goldfish, See 'em? Oh, I see.) Pg. 44: Stand Take 2 Taking I U Throw My (I understand you undertake to overthrow my undertaking.) DRAWPU DNA DRAWNO (Read from right to left for translation) Pg. 48: Is Russia Hungary? I don't know. Alaska. Pg. 51: Where did you get those pants? Pantsylvania. The coat? North Dacoata. The vest? Vest Virginia. The collar? Collarado. The hat? Manhattan. The shirt? A fellow gave it to me. Pg. 53: In Fourteeh Hundred and Ninety-two Columbus saild the ocean blue. In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety-three Columbus sailed the deep blue sea. In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety-four Columbus sailed the sea once more. Pg. 55: Shoot the cat, Shoot the rat, Shoot the dirty Democrat. Shoot the turkey, Shoot the hen, Shoot the dirty Republican. Pg. 62: Roses are red, Violets are blue; The skunks had a college And called it P. U. Googey, gooey was a worm, A mighty worm was he; He sat upon the railroad tracks, The train he did not see. Gooey, gooey! Pg. 63: Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children will burn; All but the youngest, whose name is Ann, And she hid herself 'neath the frying pan. Pg. 66: An apple a day Keeps the doctor away. An onion a day Keeps everyone away. Pg. 69: Mary had a little lamb, A little pork, a liitle jam, A little fish, a little ham, A little soda topped with fizz, Now how sick our Mary is. It's better to burp and bear the shame Than spare the burp and bear the pain. Pg. 76: I sneezed a sneeze into the air; It fell to the ground, I know not where; But hard and cold were the looks of those In whose vicinity I had snoze. Pg. 88: My story's ended, My spoon is bended. If you don't like it, Go next door and get it mended. Pg. 90: Before you say that ugly word, Stop and count ten; Then if you want to say that word, Begin and count again. A wise old owl lived in an oak; THe more he heard the less he spoke; The less he spoke the more he heard, Why can't we all be like that wise old bird? Have communion with few. Be familiar with one; Deal justly with all, Speak evil of none. Pg. 91: Ask me no questions, And I'll tell you no lies; Bring me those apples And I'll make you some pies. Pg. 92: It's not the looks, It's not the shoes; Pretty is As pretty do's. Pg. 93: Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace, And Grace is a little girl Who doesn't wash her face. Pg. 96: Well begun Is half done. Pg. 98: In everything you do Aim to excel, For what's worth doing Is worth doing well. Pg. 99: Stop! Look! and Listen! Before you cross the street. Use your eyes; use your ears; Then use your feet. Pg. 100: Politeness is to do and say The kindest thing in the kindest way. Pg. 101: Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four on the sidewalk Is never allowed. Pg. 109: I pity the waiter, I pity the cook, I pity the one Who steals this book. Pg. 110: "Clap my hands and jump for joy; I was here before Kilroy." "Sorry to spoil your little joke; I was here, but my pencil broke." --Kilroy (TO BE CONTINUED) From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 04:45:21 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:45:21 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <8C6FE3CCD651EA2-B30-131B0@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Pg. 113: This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. Whoever steals this book of knowledge Will graduate from Sing Sing College. Pg. 116: When I die, bury me ddep, Tell Taft High School not to weep, Lay my math book at my head, Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. When I die, bury me deep, Bury my history book at my feet, Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, And won't be back for the history test. I never went to Harvard, I never went to Yale, I got my education At the Hudson Country jail. Fail now and avoid the June rush. Pg. 118: If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. Many are cold, but few are frozen. Roses are red, Violets are blue, I copied your paper, And I flunked too. Pg. 124: You can lead a horse to water, But you cannot make him drink. You can send a fool to college, But you cannot make him think. Little bits of nerve, Little grains of sand, Make the biggest blockhead Pass a hard exam. Pg. 126: The more we study, the more we know. The more we know, the more we forget The more we forget, the less we know. The less we know, the less we forget. The less we forget, the more we know. Why study? Pg. 128: Tattle tale, teacher's pet! Tell it quick or you'll forget. A dillar, a dollar, A ten o'clock scholar, What makes you come so soon? You use to come at ten o'clock, And now you come at noon. Pg. 129: Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, Oil those brains Before they rust. Pg. 130: April Fool, Go to school, Tell your teacher, She's a fool. Teacher, teacher, I declare, I see Mary's underwear. Pg. 134: I made you look, I made you look, I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 137: Sticks and stones may break my bones, But names will never hurt me. When I die, then you'll cry For the names you called me. Pg. 138: Liar, liar, lick spit, Your tongue shall be slit, And all the dogs in town Shall have a little bit. Pg. 139: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire; Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Pg. 140: Birds of a feather flock together And so will pigs and swine; Rats and mice have their choice, And so will I have mine. Billy, Billy is no good, Chop him up for fire wood; If the fire does not burn Billy is a big fat worm. Cross my heart and hope to die, Eat a banana and holler Hi! Pg. 141: Fat, fat, the water rat, Fifty bullets in his hat. Fatty, fatty, Two by four, Swinging on the kitchen door. When the door began to shake Fatty had a bellyache. Pg. 142: What's your name? Pudding and Tame, Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your name? Buster Brown. Aske me again And I'll know you down. My name's West, I ain't in this mess. Pg. 143: _When someone says, "Hey!":_ Hay is for horses, Straw is for cows, Milk is for babies For crying out loud. _or_ Hey! Straw. What you can't eat, You may gnaw. Pg. 146: Tonight, tonight, The pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Break the dishes, break the chairs, Trip the teachers on the stairs. No more pencils, no more books No more teachers' nasty looks. No more Latin, no more French, No more sitting on a hard school bench. Pg. 147: No more homework, oh what cheer No more school for the rest of the year! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS compiled by Lilliam Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company 1965 Pg. 141: _Come on In_ Come on in, The water's fine. I'll give you Till I count nine. If you're not In by then, Guess I'll have to Count to ten. OLD RHYME _Yes, by Golly_ Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. OLD RHYME ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS New York: Charles A. Lilley 1879 Pg. 92: Love many, trust few, And always paddle your own canoe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES by Ray Wood Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company 1952 Pg. 4: Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? Pg. 9: Chicken in the car and the car won't go, That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. Pg. 30: One for the cutworm, Two for the crow, Three for the chickens, And four to grow. Pg. 78: Joe, Joe, strong and able, Take your elbows off the table, You're not living in a stable. Pg. 92: What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. Pg. 106: Joe, Joe, broke his toe, On the way to Mexico; On the way back he broke his back Trying to ride a paper sack; When he got home, he broke a bone Trying to talk on the telephone. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 04:48:21 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:48:21 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in >today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan >Transit Authority) nicknames? >... >23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: >More Trouble Ahead? Barry notes a few others on his "Big Apple" page : ----- (Google Groups) Odd NYCTA quote from NY Times Tuesday October 6, 1998 ... I have seen the trend spread over into supervision now. Kenny NYCTA Motorman MTA.... Moving Trash Around ....Moving Thugs Around ....More Trouble Ahead nyc.transit – Oct 30 1998, 2:42 am by KRH1955 – 9 messages – 9 authors ----- >From a 1996 thread on the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit (the first three actually refer to the MTA of Los Angeles): Making Transit Awful More Trouble Awaits Many Tardy Arrivals My! Timetable! Amazed! http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.transport.urban-transit/browse_frm/thread/188a5597ff32eb99/8d5a240f58ada03d And along the lines of "Moing Thugs Around", the same thread mentions two (racist) nicknames playing on other public transit initialisms: MARTA "Metro Atlanta Regional Transit Authority" -> "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta" NFT "Niagara Frontier Transit" -> "Nigger Freight Train" Those two nicknames also appear in Nicholas Howe's 1989 article "Rewriting initialisms: folk derivations and linguistic riddles" _Journal of American Folklore_ 102(404):171-182. On JSTOR: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715%28198904%2F06%29102%3A404%3C171%3ARIFDAL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z Surprisingly, Howe doesn't have any reinterpretations of "MTA". But he does have a good selection of automotive nicknames: ----- BMW Big Money Wasted Break My Windows Buick Motor Works Wanted Mercedes-Benz (backwards) Chevy Can Hear Every Valve Yell Dodge Dear Old Dad Goes Everywhere Fiat Fix It Again Tony Found In A Toilet Ford Fix Or Replace Daily Fucking Old Rebuilt Dodge Found On Road Dead Found on Russian Dump First On Race Day GM General Mistakes GMC General Mass of Crap Garage Man's Companion Great Made Car Good Mountain Climber IHC (International Harvester Co.) In Hock Constantly MB (Mercedes-Benz) Mucho Bucks Mechanic's Bonanza MOPAR My Only Problems Are Repairs My Old Pig Ain't Running Olds Old Like Dad's Studebaker Plymouth Please Leave Your Money On The Hood Pontiac Poor Old Niggers Think It's A Cadillac REO Runs Empty Only ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 06:16:22 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:16:22 -0500 Subject: Mozzarella Monday Message-ID: MOZZARELLA MONDAY--70 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits MOZZARELLA MONDAYS--10 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits (FACTIVA) New York Pulse ITS TODAYS CHEESE WIZ CYNTHIA KILIAN 600 words 23 March 2005 New York Post 46 English (c) 2005 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. MOZZARELLA is the new Big Cheese. Restaurants are making their own, concocting whole platters devoted to the once overlooked pizza topper and serving the Italian cheese in endlessly fresh presentations. Bond 45, a handsome new Italian addition to Times Square, serves a large platter with four types of mozzarella, including one made in the restaurants kitchen. "I was really going to build a mozzarella bar and do it like our antipasto bar," says owner Shelly Fireman, "but one of the problems is, mozzarella looks kind of boring . . . Its white balls and slightly milky, so the appeal is mixing and matching it with other things." For now, that means serving it with eggplant caponata, nutty fava beans and walnuts, proscuitto and roasted peppers, but there are many possibilities. "Its so endless," says Fireman, "adding is easy." In Los Angeles, Mario Batali is joining forces with baking wizard Nancy Silverton to open a West Coast mozzarella bar, with plans for a spin-off here. Silverton should know a thing or two about the subject - she already presides over "Mozzarella Monday" at L.A.s Jar restaurant. The idea has taken off here too. The Rock Center Caf is doing its own "Mozzarella Monday," with dishes such as crispy sausage and mozzarella purses, and fresh mozzarella, basil and prosciutto pinwheels with garlic crostini. The current darling of the mozzarella world is a variety called burrata, a rich, leaf-wrapped specimen imported from Puglia, Italy. "People are going crazy over it," says Donatella Arpaia, owner of SoHos just-opened Ama, dedicated to Pugliese food. "Mike Myers - you know, Austin Powers - was here a few days ago and just fell in love with it. Hes like, Its sick! I love it! " Ama serves the lush cows milk cheese on the leaf it comes wrapped in, which was originally used to keep the cheese cool, but is now just for decoration. "All we do is help the customer open the pouch and we drizzle a little olive oil from Puglia, and thats it. You dont have to add salt, you dont have to add pepper, you dont have to do much to it at all. Its a very rich mozzarella." I eat at Donatella's restaurant, and she name-drops Mike Myers? Oooh, that woman! "Mozzarella Monday" is something that might catch on. What's next? Andy Smith's "Tuna Tuesday"? (FACTIVA) GO! A LA CARTE 734 words 18 February 2005 The Record All Editions G38 English (...) Rustic-Italian-style handmade mozzarella takes center plate on Monday nights at the bar at Rock Center Cafe. Executive chef Antonio Protelli offers a menu with six mozzarella dishes matched with a selection of Italian wines by the glass. The signature Mozzarella Monday menu offers plates priced from $8 to $12 each. Rock Center Cafe is at 20 W. 50th St., Manhattan. Information: (212) 332-7620. (FACTIVA) Silverton, Batali to join forces for Mozza Bar concept in L.A.: locally produced mozzarella to be central to dishes.(News) Jennings, Lisa 755 words 14 February 2005 Nation's Restaurant News 4 ISSN: 0028-0518; Volume 39; Issue 7 English Copyright 2005 Gale Group Inc. All rights reserved. Los ANGELES -- La Brea Bakery founder and renowned chef-restaurateur Nancy Silverton is teaming up with a counterpart from New York, celebrated chef-restaurateur Mario Batali, to open a new concept here that tentatively is named Mozza Bar and someday may be replicated in the Big Apple. The casual, Italian-inspired restaurant will be a first on the West Coast for Batali and his longtime business partner Joseph Bastianich. The pair owns seven critically acclaimed New York restaurants, including Babbo, Esca, Lupa and the recently opened Bistro du Vent. The Los Angeles venture also marks a reversal of Batali's former stance that he never would open a restaurant in that city. (...) Over the past several months, Silverton also has hosted the popular "Mozzarella Mondays" at the Los Angeles restaurant Jar, co-owned by chef Suzanne Tracht. The weekly dinners include a bar menu that features locally produced mozzarella prepared in various ways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? A brief round-up of my Tyler Cowan restaurant challenge. I visited some excellent restaurants and then some standard types. KLUNG--I ate there Wednesday (last night). A Siamese restaurant on St. Marks Place, between Second and Third. It's been open about six months. A nice place. MERMAID INN--On Second Avenue. I ate there in Monday and finally got a seat. Worth it for the seafood. INDIAN PLACE A BLOCK AWAY FROM THE MERMAID INN WHEN I COULDN'T GET A TABLE IN THERE--Not bad for Northern Indian. BLT FISH--I finally got in there. There's a nice garlic and cheese bread before the meal. I can't tell much from OK fish & chips. PORTFOLIO RESTAURANT--The next block from BLT Fish, when I couldn't get a table there. This place was empty, but it's OK Italian. SERAFINA RESTAURANT--There are at least four different ones in Manhattan--one on Broadway and West 55th, one on Lafayette Street, and I ate at the one on West 61st. I had lettuce and then noodles. It was about $33 with taxes and tip! Overpriced, overrated Italian. Would be OK if cheaper. BROADWAY DINER--Not on Broadway, of course (that's now a Serafina), but on Lexington Avenue and 52nd. Nothing special, but bright enough to read the paper. PIZZA RESTAURANT ON CARMINE STREET--Already mentioned. ITALIAN RESTAURANT ON CARMINE STREET--It's a block down from the pizza restaurant. Above average. Reasonably priced. PIZZA & PASTA ON LA GUARDIA--An OK place, about two blocks from the NYU Bobst Library. JACQUES IMO'S TO GEAUX AT GRAND CENTRAL--Already mentioned. HUMMUS ON MACDOUGAL STREET--Same as the Hummus on St. Marks Place. LOUIS G'S ICE CREAM ON MACDOUGAL STREET--One of a Brooklyn chain. A good egg cream, but I still like Carvel ice cream better. MARY'S FISH CAMP ON WEST FOURTH AND CHARLES STREET--Tiny and crowded, but good fish. Closed on Sundays. Mary was there, but is no Donatella. MARY'S DAIRY ON WEST FOURTH--The Hawaii Five-O with killer chocolate and chips and nuts remains the only flavor to get. Not related to Mary's Fish Camp on West Fourth, but I felt like a Marys food chain last Saturday. GOBO ON SIXTH AVENUE--There's now an uptown one as well. It's been rated one of the best vegetarian restaurants in the country and it certainly is good. I'll have to go there again for another dish. I was told to get the "New England rolls," which are fantastic, but New England? Is it supposed to be a veggie lobster roll? It tasted more Vietnamese than New England! BELLINI RESTAURANT ON EAST 52ND--Donatella's first restaurant. Good but overpriced. My most expensive meal, at $55 (after taxes and tip). The $28 tuna entree was not spectacular. 879-TACO ON FIRST AVENUE--Yes, I actually went here when I just didn't feel like a $60 "angry lobster" dinner at David Burke & Donatella on East 61st. Hey, it was ten bucks. BLOCKHEADS--There are several, but I went to the closest one at Second Avenue and East 51st. Just average Mexican. Better than Taco Bell, not even close to Rosa Mexicano or Mama Mexico or Mexican Radio. Not even as good as Mary Ann's. But it's bright enough to read the newspaper with your meal. MEDITERRANEAN CAFE--Falafel dive on East 53rd Street, below the ground. KELLY AND PING--An "Asian Grocery and Noodle Shop" on 340 Third Avenue (near 23rd Street), also at 127 Greene Street. OK Asian. RAY'S PIZZARIA ON PRINCE STREET--This is supposed to be the "original" Ray's pizza, established 1959. It says "pizzaria" in the window, not "pizzeria." An average slice place. MEKONG RESTAURANT AND BAR ON PRINCE STREET--Average Vietnamese/Asian. ENGLISH IS ITALIAN ON THIRD AVENUE AND EAST 40TH--Not a place to go by yourself. A good deal at $39 for all the rounds. I gotta take Grant Barrett and Jesse Sheidlower here. Orion Montoya's girlfriend looks kinda skinny, too. IRISH BAR ON 43RD STREET, BETWEEN GRAND CENTRAL AND MADISON AVENUE--I didn't go to an Irish bar on St. Patrick's Day, but before, when it was empty. A surprisingly good French onion soup. NATHAN'S-BLIMPIE'S-THE BEST PIZZA ON WESTCHESTER SQUARE--This opened near where I work. Two places on Westchester Square sell "the best pizza." Neither one is very good. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 13:13:44 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:13:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Idealism" In-Reply-To: <8C6FE436BA527E2-B30-13429@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: idealism (OED 1796) 1773 Denis Diderot _An Essay on Blindness_ 50 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Idealism deserves very well to be reported to him; and this hypothesis is as a double incentive for him, his singularity, and much more the difficulty of refuting its principles, they being precisely the same as those of Berkeley. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 13:22:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:22:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Monarchism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: monarchism (OED 1792) 1742 J. Olivier _The History of the Life, and Surprizing Adventures of Signor Rozelli_ 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) If I had known, from that time, the spirit of monarchism, I should have taken care not to have embrac'd it, as I afterwards did. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 24 14:31:46 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: OXYMORON: "A rhetorical figure in which an epigrammatic effect is created by the conjunction of incongruous or contradictory terms" Can anyone out there tell me when oxymoron lost its technical rhetorical definition and became merely a synonym for a contradiction in terms? For better or worse the former usage is apparently lost forever having been overwhelmed by the popular usage to the point where no one except a professor of English or someone like myself who took English back in the middle ages would even know that it ever was a technical term. Page Stephens From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 24 14:51:20 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:51:20 -0500 Subject: swang on local NPR station Message-ID: I just heard _swang_ (as in sing, swang, swung) in an interview on NPR (WAMC, Albany, NY). I suspect that HDAS will extend the understanding of the place of _swang_ in recent American English beyond that found in Wentworth (1944). Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 15:07:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:07:04 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: "Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. JL bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Pg. 113: This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. Whoever steals this book of knowledge Will graduate from Sing Sing College. Pg. 116: When I die, bury me ddep, Tell Taft High School not to weep, Lay my math book at my head, Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. When I die, bury me deep, Bury my history book at my feet, Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, And won't be back for the history test. I never went to Harvard, I never went to Yale, I got my education At the Hudson Country jail. Fail now and avoid the June rush. Pg. 118: If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. Many are cold, but few are frozen. Roses are red, Violets are blue, I copied your paper, And I flunked too. Pg. 124: You can lead a horse to water, But you cannot make him drink. You can send a fool to college, But you cannot make him think. Little bits of nerve, Little grains of sand, Make the biggest blockhead Pass a hard exam. Pg. 126: The more we study, the more we know. The more we know, the more we forget The more we forget, the less we know. The less we know, the less we forget. The less we forget, the more we know. Why study? Pg. 128: Tattle tale, teacher's pet! Tell it quick or you'll forget. A dillar, a dollar, A ten o'clock scholar, What makes you come so soon? You use to come at ten o'clock, And now you come at noon. Pg. 129: Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, Oil those brains Before they rust. Pg. 130: April Fool, Go to school, Tell your teacher, She's a fool. Teacher, teacher, I declare, I see Mary's underwear. Pg. 134: I made you look, I made you look, I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 137: Sticks and stones may break my bones, But names will never hurt me. When I die, then you'll cry For the names you called me. Pg. 138: Liar, liar, lick spit, Your tongue shall be slit, And all the dogs in town Shall have a little bit. Pg. 139: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire; Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Pg. 140: Birds of a feather flock together And so will pigs and swine; Rats and mice have their choice, And so will I have mine. Billy, Billy is no good, Chop him up for fire wood; If the fire does not burn Billy is a big fat worm. Cross my heart and hope to die, Eat a banana and holler Hi! Pg. 141: Fat, fat, the water rat, Fifty bullets in his hat. Fatty, fatty, Two by four, Swinging on the kitchen door. When the door began to shake Fatty had a bellyache. Pg. 142: What's your name? Pudding and Tame, Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your name? Buster Brown. Aske me again And I'll know you down. My name's West, I ain't in this mess. Pg. 143: _When someone says, "Hey!":_ Hay is for horses, Straw is for cows, Milk is for babies For crying out loud. _or_ Hey! Straw. What you can't eat, You may gnaw. Pg. 146: Tonight, tonight, The pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Break the dishes, break the chairs, Trip the teachers on the stairs. No more pencils, no more books No more teachers' nasty looks. No more Latin, no more French, No more sitting on a hard school bench. Pg. 147: No more homework, oh what cheer No more school for the rest of the year! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS compiled by Lilliam Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company 1965 Pg. 141: _Come on In_ Come on in, The water's fine. I'll give you Till I count nine. If you're not In by then, Guess I'll have to Count to ten. OLD RHYME _Yes, by Golly_ Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. OLD RHYME ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS New York: Charles A. Lilley 1879 Pg. 92: Love many, trust few, And always paddle your own canoe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES by Ray Wood Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company 1952 Pg. 4: Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? Pg. 9: Chicken in the car and the car won't go, That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. Pg. 30: One for the cutworm, Two for the crow, Three for the chickens, And four to grow. Pg. 78: Joe, Joe, strong and able, Take your elbows off the table, You're not living in a stable. Pg. 92: What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. Pg. 106: Joe, Joe, broke his toe, On the way to Mexico; On the way back he broke his back Trying to ride a paper sack; When he got home, he broke a bone Trying to talk on the telephone. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 15:13:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:13:04 -0800 Subject: swang on local NPR station In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: HDAS doesn't ordinarily treat nonstandard verb forms - that's DARE territory. I've heard "swang" in Tennessee on more than one occasion, but certainly not with any frequency. JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: swang on local NPR station ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just heard _swang_ (as in sing, swang, swung) in an interview on NPR (WAMC, Albany, NY). I suspect that HDAS will extend the understanding of the place of _swang_ in recent American English beyond that found in Wentworth (1944). Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:25:50 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:25:50 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Stephen Dedalus writes a version of this in a schoolbook in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 24 15:34:33 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for The Kingston Trio many years ago. Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of which shared the same tune. The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never heard the song. The Wreck of the Old 97 also provides us with an interesting way of tracing the antecedents of different versions of a song via a mistake made by the singer of the most popular version. The original recorded version by Henry Whitter was correct in terms of earlier printed versions when he sang "he lost his airbrakes" but Vernon Dalhart who covered it apparently misheard the words since he recorded it as "he lost his average" and so if you hear someone singing the latter phrase you know it comes from Dalhart's cover which sold in the millions and not from Whitter's version. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:48 PM Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in >>today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan >>Transit Authority) nicknames? >>... >>23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: >>More Trouble Ahead? > > Barry notes a few others on his "Big Apple" page > : > > ----- > (Google Groups) > Odd NYCTA quote from NY Times Tuesday October 6, 1998 > ... I have seen the trend spread over into supervision now. Kenny NYCTA > Motorman MTA.... > Moving Trash Around ....Moving Thugs Around ....More Trouble Ahead > nyc.transit - Oct 30 1998, 2:42 am by KRH1955 - 9 messages - 9 authors > ----- > > From a 1996 thread on the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit (the > first three actually refer to the MTA of Los Angeles): > > Making Transit Awful > More Trouble Awaits > Many Tardy Arrivals > My! Timetable! Amazed! > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.transport.urban-transit/browse_frm/thread/188a5597ff32eb99/8d5a240f58ada03d > > And along the lines of "Moing Thugs Around", the same thread mentions two > (racist) nicknames playing on other public transit initialisms: > > MARTA "Metro Atlanta Regional Transit Authority" -> > "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta" > > NFT "Niagara Frontier Transit" -> > "Nigger Freight Train" > > Those two nicknames also appear in Nicholas Howe's 1989 article "Rewriting > initialisms: folk derivations and linguistic riddles" _Journal of American > Folklore_ 102(404):171-182. On JSTOR: > http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715%28198904%2F06%29102%3A404%3C171%3ARIFDAL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z > > Surprisingly, Howe doesn't have any reinterpretations of "MTA". But he > does have a good selection of automotive nicknames: > > ----- > BMW > Big Money Wasted > Break My Windows > Buick Motor Works > Wanted Mercedes-Benz (backwards) > > Chevy > Can Hear Every Valve Yell > > Dodge > Dear Old Dad Goes Everywhere > > Fiat > Fix It Again Tony > Found In A Toilet > > Ford > Fix Or Replace Daily > Fucking Old Rebuilt Dodge > Found On Road Dead > Found on Russian Dump > First On Race Day > > GM > General Mistakes > > GMC > General Mass of Crap > Garage Man's Companion > Great Made Car > Good Mountain Climber > > IHC (International Harvester Co.) > In Hock Constantly > > MB (Mercedes-Benz) > Mucho Bucks > Mechanic's Bonanza > > MOPAR > My Only Problems Are Repairs > My Old Pig Ain't Running > > Olds > Old Like Dad's Studebaker > > Plymouth > Please Leave Your Money On The Hood > > Pontiac > Poor Old Niggers Think It's A Cadillac > > REO > Runs Empty Only > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:37:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: >OXYMORON: >"A rhetorical figure in which an epigrammatic effect is created by the >conjunction of incongruous or contradictory terms" > >Can anyone out there tell me when oxymoron lost its technical rhetorical >definition and became merely a synonym for a contradiction in terms? > >For better or worse the former usage is apparently lost forever having been >overwhelmed by the popular usage to the point where no one except a >professor of English or someone like myself who took English back in the >middle ages would even know that it ever was a technical term. The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general sense of 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive suggests that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:38:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:38:47 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050324150704.96955.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:07 AM -0800 3/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. > >JL speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence Here I sit, broken-hearted Came to shit and only farted. ? I'm assuming Fred will need an first cite on that for his Yale Dictionary of Quotations, although it might be hard to determine the author. I see from the archives that Barry (in an October 2000 posting) found this in a "Realist" issue from 1968--in the pay-toilet version, "Paid to shit"--but its provenance is certainly a lot earlier. L >bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Pg. 111: >Bill Jones is my name, >U. S. is my nation, >Ohio is my dwelling place >And Heaven my expectation. > >Pg. 113: >This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. > >Whoever steals this book of knowledge >Will graduate from Sing Sing College. > >Pg. 116: >When I die, bury me ddep, >Tell Taft High School not to weep, >Lay my math book at my head, >Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. > >When I die, bury me deep, >Bury my history book at my feet, >Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, >And won't be back for the history test. > >I never went to Harvard, >I never went to Yale, >I got my education >At the Hudson Country jail. > >Fail now and avoid the June rush. > >Pg. 118: >If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >Many are cold, but few are frozen. > >Roses are red, >Violets are blue, >I copied your paper, >And I flunked too. > >Pg. 124: >You can lead a horse to water, >But you cannot make him drink. >You can send a fool to college, >But you cannot make him think. > >Little bits of nerve, >Little grains of sand, >Make the biggest blockhead >Pass a hard exam. > >Pg. 126: >The more we study, the more we know. >The more we know, the more we forget >The more we forget, the less we know. >The less we know, the less we forget. >The less we forget, the more we know. >Why study? > >Pg. 128: >Tattle tale, teacher's pet! >Tell it quick or you'll forget. > >A dillar, a dollar, >A ten o'clock scholar, >What makes you come so soon? >You use to come at ten o'clock, >And now you come at noon. > >Pg. 129: >Ashes to ashes, >Dust to dust, >Oil those brains >Before they rust. > >Pg. 130: >April Fool, >Go to school, >Tell your teacher, >She's a fool. > >Teacher, teacher, >I declare, >I see Mary's underwear. > >Pg. 134: >I made you look, >I made you look, >I made you buy a penny book. > >Pg. 137: >Sticks and stones may break my bones, >But names will never hurt me. >When I die, then you'll cry >For the names you called me. > >Pg. 138: >Liar, liar, lick spit, >Your tongue shall be slit, >And all the dogs in town >Shall have a little bit. > >Pg. 139: >Liar, liar, >Your pants are on fire; >Your nose is as long >As a telephone wire. > >Pg. 140: >Birds of a feather flock together >And so will pigs and swine; >Rats and mice have their choice, >And so will I have mine. > >Billy, Billy is no good, >Chop him up for fire wood; >If the fire does not burn >Billy is a big fat worm. > >Cross my heart and hope to die, >Eat a banana and holler Hi! > >Pg. 141: >Fat, fat, the water rat, >Fifty bullets in his hat. > >Fatty, fatty, >Two by four, >Swinging on the kitchen door. >When the door began to shake >Fatty had a bellyache. > >Pg. 142: >What's your name? >Pudding and Tame, >Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. >Where do you live? >Down the lane. >What's your number? >Cucumber. > >What's your name? >Buster Brown. >Aske me again >And I'll know you down. > >My name's West, >I ain't in this mess. > >Pg. 143: >_When someone says, "Hey!":_ > >Hay is for horses, >Straw is for cows, >Milk is for babies >For crying out loud. >_or_ >Hey! >Straw. >What you can't eat, >You may gnaw. > >Pg. 146: >Tonight, tonight, >The pillow fight, >Tomorrow's the end of school. >Break the dishes, break the chairs, >Trip the teachers on the stairs. > >No more pencils, no more books >No more teachers' nasty looks. > >No more Latin, no more French, >No more sitting on a hard school bench. > >Pg. 147: >No more homework, oh what cheer >No more school for the rest of the year! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: >SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS >compiled by Lilliam Morrison >New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company >1965 > >Pg. 141: _Come on In_ >Come on in, >The water's fine. >I'll give you >Till I count nine. >If you're not >In by then, >Guess I'll have to >Count to ten. >OLD RHYME > >_Yes, by Golly_ >Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, >Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. >OLD RHYME > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS >New York: Charles A. Lilley >1879 > >Pg. 92: >Love many, trust few, >And always paddle your own canoe. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES >by Ray Wood >Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company >1952 > >Pg. 4: >Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; >Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; >Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? > >Pg. 9: >Chicken in the car and the car won't go, >That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! > >Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, >That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. > >Pg. 30: >One for the cutworm, >Two for the crow, >Three for the chickens, >And four to grow. > >Pg. 78: >Joe, Joe, strong and able, >Take your elbows off the table, >You're not living in a stable. > >Pg. 92: >What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? >Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. > >Pg. 106: >Joe, Joe, broke his toe, >On the way to Mexico; >On the way back he broke his back >Trying to ride a paper sack; >When he got home, he broke a bone >Trying to talk on the telephone. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:11:00 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:11:00 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: <0IDT00EO6ZK0MVD0@mta03.service.private> Message-ID: Definitely /ogl/ in North Central/Northwestern New Jersey and adjacent parts of NY State. Maybe /agl/ is an Upper Midwest thing. Paul Johnston On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 07:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: re-ogling > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, >> I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, >> >> dInIs > > Yeah, but her detective/narrator, Kinsey Millhone, is from Santa > Barbara...er, Santa Teresa, or technically from nearby Lompoc, if > memory serves. And who knows where the woman who reads the audio > book is from (but it doesn't sound like Kentucky to me). On the > other hand, I lived in California for years and never noticed an > /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? > Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time > dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological > variants were involved... > > Larry > >> >>> Laurence Horn writes: >>> >>>> I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>>> of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>>> observed: >>>> >>>> "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >>>> >>>> --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>>> that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>>> factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>>> difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >> the "oogling" variant. > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 15:43:08 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:43:08 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 10:38:47AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 7:07 AM -0800 3/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >"Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. > > > >JL > > > speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence > > Here I sit, broken-hearted > Came to shit and only farted. > > ? 1928 in A. W. Read _Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy_ (1935) 50 Here I sit all broken hearted Came to shit and only farted. [Editor's note: "Very popular"]. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:17:31 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:17:31 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes >>>>> Pg. 43: A B C D goldfish, M N O goldfish. O S A R D goldfish, C M? O I C. (Abie, see the goldfish, Them ain't no goldfish. Oh, yes they are the goldfish, See 'em? Oh, I see.) <<<<< The version I have seen has an additional letter, which may have been omitted for this publication: A B C D goldfish, L M N O goldfish. [...] (Abie, see the goldfish, Hell, them ain't no goldfish... -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:19:36 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:19:36 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter opines: >>>>> "Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. <<<<< But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, not "snow domes". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:23:28 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:23:28 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: In high school we knew this in some form like "Great minds run in the same path", which a friend of mine always used in the parodic form "Small minds run in the same gutter" when he and I were thinking alike. I prefer his version for everyday use. How many of us have great minds? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:24:53 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:24:53 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: > > speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence > > Here I sit, broken-hearted > Came to shit and only farted. > second stanza, from my college days: Supper's waiting, I cannot linger -- I know, I have it! I'll use my finger! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:29:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:29:27 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last > night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I > downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle > through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. > > Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road > Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? > Get a cable modem from your cable TV company. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:38:33 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Variants from a misspent youth: > If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. > You can lead a horse to water, > But you cannot make him drink. > You can send a fool to college, > But you cannot make him think. You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] but you can't make her think. > April Fool, > Go to school, > Tell your teacher, > She's a fool. Trick or treat, smell my feet, Give me something good to eat. > I made you look, > I made you look, > I made you buy a penny book. ....Made you read a story book. > Fatty, fatty, > Two by four, > Swinging on the kitchen door. ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in elementary school for saying this to a girl). > My name's West, > I ain't in this mess. >From the movie "Pulp Fiction": "Hey, my name's Paul and this shit's between y'all." (Said by a character named Paul) I always assumed it was just some clever dialogue from Quentin Tarantino, now I'm not so sure. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 24 17:07:23 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:07:23 -0000 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective miseries and tell us where it comes from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Mar 24 17:31:40 2005 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:31:40 -0600 Subject: mofo Message-ID: I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a spelling pronunciation? Clai Rice From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 17:34:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:34:07 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA840@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > >You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] >but you can't make her think. attributed, correctly or not, to Dorothy Parker (as an ad lib contribution to a "use this word in a sentence" parlor game, one likes to think around the Algonquin round table). L From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Mar 24 17:36:10 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:36:10 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Quinion Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Great googily moogily A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective miseries and tell us where it comes from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 18:00:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:00:48 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: Michael Quinion: >A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >miseries and tell us where it comes from? John Baker: >I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe >was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: ----- http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html Now looky here. I did not say I was a millionare. But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. And women? Well, great googly moogly. ----- The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' "Ball of Confusion" (1970). --Ben Zimmer From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 24 18:46:47 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <8C6FE3CCD651EA2-B30-131B0@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You can get a high-speed connection from another provider and maintain your AOL account at a reduced price (around $15/month), if you want to. The connection to AOL would be broadband, in that case. Joanne On 23 Mar 2005, at 22:57, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. > > Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 18:56:06 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:56:06 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <4242C4C7.18870.F8F05CF@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 01:46:47PM -0500, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > You can get a high-speed connection from another provider and > maintain your AOL account at a reduced price (around $15/month), > if you want to. The connection to AOL would be broadband, in that > case. > > On 23 Mar 2005, at 22:57, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died > >last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up > >connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still > >must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" > >interruptions. Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL > >Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? I can't speak for the AOL stuff, but I've been very happy with Road Runner in NY, and I have high standards for this kind of thing. I'd recommend it as a provider. If you can maintain your AOL account, perhaps that would be a good solution for you. Jesse Sheidlower OED From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Thu Mar 24 18:47:27 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:47:27 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <0IDV00GNEBDJ9F60@mta03.service.private> Message-ID: And Lloyd Price's (1962?) version of Misty--which the Temps copped their "Great googa mooga, dontcha hear me talkin to ya" from. Paul Johnston On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 01:00 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Great googily moogily > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Michael Quinion: >> A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >> moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >> miseries and tell us where it comes from? > > John Baker: >> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I >> believe >> was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >> Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >> http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > > As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's > "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: > > ----- > http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html > > Now looky here. > I did not say I was a millionare. > But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. > Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, > I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. > And women? Well, great googly moogly. > ----- > > The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of > the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' > "Ball of Confusion" (1970). > > > --Ben Zimmer > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 19:43:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "If at first you don't succeed, try second." I learned this as a "baseball saying" around 1959. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > >You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] >but you can't make her think. attributed, correctly or not, to Dorothy Parker (as an ad lib contribution to a "use this word in a sentence" parlor game, one likes to think around the Algonquin round table). L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 20:29:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:29:53 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:47:27 -0500, Paul Johnston wrote: >And Lloyd Price's (1962?) version of Misty--which the Temps copped their >"Great googa mooga, dontcha hear me talkin to ya" from. Also c. 1962, Lee Dorsey had a song called "Great Googa Mooga" on his album _Ya Ya_. --Ben Zimmer >On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 01:00 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> Michael Quinion: >>> A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >>> moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >>> miseries and tell us where it comes from? >> >> John Baker: >>> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I >>> believe >>> was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >>> Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >>> http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >> >> As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's >> "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: >> >> ----- >> http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html >> >> Now looky here. >> I did not say I was a millionare. >> But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. >> Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, >> I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. >> And women? Well, great googly moogly. >> ----- >> >> The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of >> the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' >> "Ball of Confusion" (1970). >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 20:34:05 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:34:05 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: <20050322050227.70D26B24DD@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: arnold sez >>> Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second (as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. <<< You're treating the @ and the i as separate beads on a string. Try this analysis instead: Begin by treating unstressed [i@] as /?y@/, where I'm ad-hocking /?/ to stand for unstressed central vowel. It could be schwa or I or barred-I; they're not distinctive before /y/, and it's the /y/ that makes the combination come out as [i]. So we have /'nukl?y at r/. Swap the l and y and hey presto!: /'nuky?l at r/ = ['nuky at l@r], by metathesis. mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 20:35:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: >From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: "The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." "Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 21:17:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:17:33 -0800 Subject: "step up to the plate" Message-ID: "Your World," Fox News Channel, five minutes ago: "There is a role for the federal government [in the Schiavo case], and they have not stepped up to the plate!" Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to face a situation or make a decision squarely and confidently." It's been around for many years. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 21:17:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:17:47 -0800 Subject: "step up to the plate" Message-ID: "Your World," Fox News Channel, five minutes ago: "There is a role for the federal government [in the Schiavo case], and they have not stepped up to the plate!" Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to face a situation or make a decision squarely and confidently." It's been around for many years. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 21:42:43 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:42:43 -0500 Subject: "step up to the plate" In-Reply-To: <20050324211733.33950.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 01:17:33PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the > time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to > face a situation or make a decision squarely and > confidently." We do have a draft entry for this, with first quotations of 1875 (literal) and 1919 (figurative). Jesse Sheidlower OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 21:51:24 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:51:24 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: A railfan from the San Francisco area gave me these backronyms for the parts of the New York subway system: IRT = Incredibly Rancid Transit BMT = Bowel Movement Transitr IND = Incredibly Noisy Derailments The practice of thinking up spoofs on names of railroads goes way back. In England the London Chatham and Dover was the "London Crash-em and Turnover". Many such spoofs were fond rather than sarcastic, e.g. the Maryland and Pennsylvania was universally known as the "Ma and Pa" and the Hoosac Tunnel and WIlmington was the "Hoot Toot and Whistle". chew chew! Jim Landau Aside to Barry Popik---somehow this Easter season has gone past without that unforgettable candy item of previous years, Russell Stover Foil Eggs. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 24 22:10:44 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:10:44 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred In-Reply-To: <20050324203516.98281.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 03:35 PM 3/24/2005, you wrote: > From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: > >"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." > >"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to >1880. Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. > >Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >JL Makes it sound more emotionally wrenching?? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 22:41:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: > >"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." > >"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. > >Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. Here's a cite: That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 23:17:23 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:17:23 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: >> >>"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." >> >>"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >>Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. >> >>Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations >like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. >Here's a cite: > > That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a > "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. > Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ Slightly earlier, in the "birth family" sense: ----- Lima News (Ohio), Aug 22, 1968, p. 28 Adopted parents are often given scant information on their chosen child's blood relations. This is done to prevent any later crossing of the two families, which might trigger a change in the blood family's willingness to go through with the adoption. ----- And earlier still, in a peculiar show-biz usage: ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), Oct 26, 1954, p. 18 It was a party for both of Liberace's families. There was his blood family ... And there was his money family, consisting of his business managers, his arranger, his television director, and the wives of some of them. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 23:24:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: "blood family" = kindred In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: One important reason for "blood family" is that "kindred" has fallen out of general use. However, I find there is something creepy about it - or gory. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "blood family" = kindred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: >> >>"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." >> >>"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >>Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. >> >>Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations >like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. >Here's a cite: > > That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a > "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. > Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ Slightly earlier, in the "birth family" sense: ----- Lima News (Ohio), Aug 22, 1968, p. 28 Adopted parents are often given scant information on their chosen child's blood relations. This is done to prevent any later crossing of the two families, which might trigger a change in the blood family's willingness to go through with the adoption. ----- And earlier still, in a peculiar show-biz usage: ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), Oct 26, 1954, p. 18 It was a party for both of Liberace's families. There was his blood family ... And there was his money family, consisting of his business managers, his arranger, his television director, and the wives of some of them. ----- --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 01:56:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:56:26 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Barry quotes > >>>>> > >Pg. 43: >A B C D goldfish, >M N O goldfish. >O S A R D goldfish, > C M? >O I C. >(Abie, see the goldfish, >Them ain't no goldfish. >Oh, yes they are the goldfish, >See 'em? >Oh, I see.) > <<<<< > >The version I have seen has an additional letter, which may have been >omitted for this publication: > >A B C D goldfish, >L M N O goldfish. > [...] >(Abie, see the goldfish, >Hell, them ain't no goldfish... > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] ADCDQTT OMNOQTT OSAR Abie, see the cuties? Oh, them ain't no cuties! Oh, yes they are! From Readers Digest ca. the '40's -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:13:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:13:25 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter opines: > >>>>> > >"Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. > <<<<< > >But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, >not "snow domes". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] I've seen domes, but they were solid glass and had some kind of pictorial matter affixed to the bottom so that the dome was, in effect, a magnifying glass. My late stepfather had one with a photo of his first-born child, which had died in infancy. He used it as a paperweight. I've never seen one that was hollow with "snow," nor do I know of any special name for this item. -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:44:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:44:22 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Michael Quinion: >>A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >>moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >>miseries and tell us where it comes from? > >John Baker: >>I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe >>was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >>Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > >As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's >"Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: > >----- >http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html > >Now looky here. >I did not say I was a millionare. >But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. >Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, >I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. >And women? Well, great googly moogly. >----- > > >The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of >the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' >"Ball of Confusion" (1970). > >--Ben Zimmer The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll have to check my collection. In any case, the Spaniels' use of this version of the expression postdates its use by the Magic Tones and and antedates the version spoken by Wilie Dixon, IIAC. The first version that I heard is the one used by the Cadets. "I smelled somethin' cookin' / An' I looked to see / That's when I found out / They was cookin' me! / Great googa mooga! / Lemme outta here!" -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:56:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:56:28 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >discussion of the term at >http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > >John Baker "... Best-known for Frank Zappa's use ,,," Who's Frank Zappa? -Wilson Gray > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Michael Quinion >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Great googily moogily > > >A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >miseries and tell us where it comes from? > >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: >Web: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 03:02:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:02:58 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Baker, John" >>Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >>which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >>best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >>discussion of the term at >>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >> >>John Baker > > >"... Best-known for Frank Zappa's use ,,," > >Who's Frank Zappa? > >-Wilson Gray The maternal grandfather of invention. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 03:09:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:09:46 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Clai Rice >Subject: mofo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. >I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, >white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo >Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black >vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, >muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >spelling pronunciation? > >Clai Rice I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things may no longer be as I remember them. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 04:24:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:24:15 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I saw some "domes" in the '50s. They were hemispherical, filled with water and confetti-like "snow." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter opines: > >>>>> > >"Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. > <<<<< > >But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, >not "snow domes". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] I've seen domes, but they were solid glass and had some kind of pictorial matter affixed to the bottom so that the dome was, in effect, a magnifying glass. My late stepfather had one with a photo of his first-born child, which had died in infancy. He used it as a paperweight. I've never seen one that was hollow with "snow," nor do I know of any special name for this item. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 04:53:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:53:22 -0800 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: On my first day in Tennessee, I went into a Krystal near campus for some fast food. The first utterance I heard spoken by a very middle-aged white Tennessean was " [ 'kE:p yI ] ? " After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Can I help you?" A week or so ago I was being thwarted once again by the automatic checkout machine at the supermarket. A young black employee approached me and clearly inquired " [ dI 'mEz @ ] ?" After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Did it mess up?" So "muh-fuh" must be out there. I haven't heard it, but I have heard [ 'm@: f@ k@ ] , with reduction to the vanishing point of the secoind syllable. I've heard "mofo" from white guys only, all of them roughly my age, i.e., young enough to have been influenced by the late Hunter S. Thompson, but old enough to be offered gratuitous senior discounts at places like Krystal. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: mofo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Clai Rice >Subject: mofo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. >I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, >white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo >Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black >vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, >muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >spelling pronunciation? > >Clai Rice I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things may no longer be as I remember them. -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 25 05:26:04 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:26:04 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: <20050325045322.86030.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE /mVfV/, maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes "d" when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for maybe a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, but I did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" affectation maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 05:40:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:40:11 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my first day in Tennessee, I went into a Krystal near campus for > some fast food. The first utterance I heard spoken by a very > middle-aged white Tennessean was " [ 'kE:p yI ] ? " > > After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Can I > help you?" > > A week or so ago I was being thwarted once again by the automatic > checkout machine at the supermarket. A young black employee > approached me and clearly inquired > " [ dI 'mEz @ ] ?" > > After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Did it > mess up?" > > So "muh-fuh" must be out there. I haven't heard it, but I have heard > [ 'm@: > f@ k@ ] , with reduction to the vanishing point of the secoind > syllable. I agree. I've never heard anyone say "muh-fuh" except facetiously. But, in the course of my life, I've noticed that there are people who speak seriously in a manner that I had previously considered to be a joke, such as pronouncing "motherfucker" as "mofo." In like manner, I've also, upon occasion, had to deal with people who - I know that this will be hard to believe, but I assure you that it's true, shocking though it be - thought that there was something odd about my speech. -Wilson Gray > > I've heard "mofo" from white guys only, all of them roughly my age, > i.e., young enough to have been influenced by the late Hunter S. > Thompson, but old enough to be offered gratuitous senior discounts at > places like Krystal. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Clai Rice >> Subject: mofo >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the >> pronunciation. >> I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >> secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned >> up, >> white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >> source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >> RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the >> Mofo >> Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively >> Black >> vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is >> me, >> muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >> spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >> spelling pronunciation? >> >> Clai Rice > > > I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always > used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used > only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, > as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things > may no longer be as I remember them. > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 07:04:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:04:04 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or > "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE > /mVfV/, > maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of > "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes > "d" > when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for > maybe > a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows > were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, > but I > did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been > euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" > affectation > maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. > > -- Doug Wilson > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) -Wilson Gray From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 08:38:02 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 03:38:02 -0500 Subject: noted without comment Message-ID: >NO WAH. > >The Atchison Champion says: "This State of Kansas is a Republican State. >It gave Gov. Hayes over forty thousand majority. Its people are a martial >people. Of its >total population, a very large proportion are trained and disciplined >soldiers. But there is not one citizen of Kansas in a thousand who does >not want the disputed >Presidency settled quietly and peacefully, under the forms of law. There >has been no talk of "wah" in Kansas. Our people know what war means, and >they want >none of it. They take no stock in and have no patience with the >blustering, brawling rascals who are howling for "wah." They are quietly >going about their business, >"and waiting for the verdict," and perfectly content to accept it, whether >it be for Hayes or Tilden." > >Winfield Courier, January 4, 1877. Editorial Page. Michael McKernan From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT Fri Mar 25 10:28:34 2005 From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:28:34 +0100 Subject: four and twenty Message-ID: Curiouser and curiouser: "[...]No less mysterious is the way the terms 'twenty-one' and 'one-and-twenty' move up [England] in alternating bands. In London people say 'twenty-one', but if you move forty miles to the north they say 'one-and-twenty'. Forty miles north of that and they say 'twenty-one' again. And so it goes right up the way to Scotland, changing from one to the other every forty miles or so. Just to complicate things, in Boston, in Lincolnshire, they say that a person is twenty-one years old, but that he has one-and-twenty marbles, while twenty miles away in Louth, they say the very opposite.'MOTHER TONGUE,Bill Bryson Penguin 1991 (at Chapter 7 'Varieties of English' on the subject of 'The Linguistic Atlas of Britain') M.I.Amorelli Faculties of Economics and Law University of Sassari ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Frank" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 9:21 AM Subject: four and twenty > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Frank > Subject: four and twenty > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm curious. When did English speakers quit saying things like four and > twenty in normal conversation? Did they ever? The reason I'm asking is > that this morning I blogged the following: > > The French say soixante-dix-neuf (sixty-ten-nine) when they want to > express the number 79. Germans say neunundsechzig (nine-and-sixty). In > an interview with Der Spiegel, a German mathematician proposes that the > way numbers are spoken in German be changed to make mental arithmetic > easier. He wants Germans to say zwanzigeins (twenty-one) instead of > einundzwanzig (one-and-twenty). Come to think of it, backward numbers > used to be common in English too. Children still sing the old nursery > rhyme: > > Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye, > Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. > When the pie was opened the birds began to sing, > Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king? > > Paul > ________________________ > Paul Frank > Chinese-English translator > paulfrank at post.harvard.edu > http://languagejottings.blogspot.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 - Release Date: 11/03/2005 > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 14:23:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times Message-ID: Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? ... There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night early in the tournament. "Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. "Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." ... From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:08:32 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:08:32 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:23 AM 3/25/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's >Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's >basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? > >.... >There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to >market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, >CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports >executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night >early in the tournament. > >"Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. >"Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some >Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the >tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." > >But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." >.... Especially in these strange times. Go, Mountaineers! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 25 16:33:28 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:33:28 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's >Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's >basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? > >... >There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to >market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, >CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports >executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night >early in the tournament. > >"Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. >"Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some >Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the >tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." > >But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." ~~~~~~~~ Surely the madness of the March hare must enter into this somehow....? A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 25 16:32:24 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:32:24 -0500 Subject: mofo Message-ID: I may have put this up earlier but it involves a story from a friend of mine who one time was driving up a street near where I lived and saw something written on the wall of a store which read "(girl's name forgotten) is a hoe." It took him all the way driving back home to realize that the word hoe did not refer to an agricultural implement. In other words spelling is not one of the strong points of graffiti artists. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 2:04 AM Subject: Re: mofo > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: mofo >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or >> "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE >> /mVfV/, >> maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of >> "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes >> "d" >> when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for >> maybe >> a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows >> were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, >> but I >> did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been >> euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" >> affectation >> maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic > pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that > vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or > have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case > that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" > really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the > speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware > that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your > parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, > perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, > there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the > Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two > consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning > with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An > example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 16:45:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:45:31 -0800 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: May I recommend HDAS II for its wide selection of "m.f"-style partial euphemisms ? Including, of course, "m.f." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: mofo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or > "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE > /mVfV/, > maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of > "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes > "d" > when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for > maybe > a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows > were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, > but I > did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been > euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" > affectation > maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. > > -- Doug Wilson > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:51:37 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:51:37 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before > Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group > began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its > assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay > suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute > to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." Here's the earliest on ProQuest: 1940 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 30 Mar. 19 (headline) Hoosier March madness boils to climax today. Nearly 15,000 will see prep basket finals. ... (text) The 29th annual Indiana High school basketball tournament, a show which once was defined as Hoosier hysterics or March madness. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:57:16 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:57:16 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA840@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: --On Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:38 AM -0600 "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> Fatty, fatty, >> Two by four, >> Swinging on the kitchen door. > > ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in > elementary school for saying this to a girl). My grade school classmates sometimes added a fourth line: Fatty, fatty Two by four Couldn't get through the bathroom door So he did it on the floor. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 17:17:27 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:27 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >Fatty, fatty >Two by four >Couldn't get through the bathroom door >So he did it on the floor. > When I was taunted with this, as a child, there were at least two more lines: licked it up and did some more Michael McKernan From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 17:50:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:50:17 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:33 AM -0500 3/25/05, sagehen wrote: > > > >>But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >>Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >>began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >>assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >>suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >>to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." >~~~~~~~~ >Surely the madness of the March hare must enter into this somehow....? >A. Murie > Sandomir doesn't mention either the March hare or the Mad Hatter, but I also assume they're implicated somehow. He does note Andy Borowitz's observation that "under pressure from the National Institutes of Health, the N.C.A.A. has changed the name to 'March Bipolar Disorder'." Larry From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 18:38:23 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > He does note Andy >Borowitz's observation that "under pressure from the National >Institutes of Health, the N.C.A.A. has changed the name to 'March >Bipolar Disorder'." So that's why they call it an 'up and down game'. Michael McKernan From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 25 18:55:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:55:59 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050325050301.6E036B253E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Larry asks: >>>> speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence Here I sit, broken-hearted Came to shit and only farted. ? I'm assuming Fred will need an first cite on that for his Yale Dictionary of Quotations, although it might be hard to determine the author. I see from the archives that Barry (in an October 2000 posting) found this in a "Realist" issue from 1968--in the pay-toilet version, "Paid to shit"--but its provenance is certainly a lot earlier. <<<< There's even a very vulgar Latin version: Hic iaceo, cor meum peredi Pecunia impensa modo pepedi. But you needn't look in the Pompeii graffiti for that citation. One of my wife's Latin professors at CCNY used to while away the subway commute by translating graffiti into Latin. Vos salutat Marcus Mandelensis [anglice a voce scripsit, latine a manu] From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Fri Mar 25 19:41:29 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:41:29 -0800 Subject: speed or rate of change Message-ID: I'm trying to find a message I saw on the list sometimes in the past few weeks, but didn't save. Someone was lamenting his inability to accept the way language changes. Or saying that he didn't want to accept changes, even though he knew he should. I couldn't find it in the archive. Does anyone remember this? Thanks, Kathy KATHY SEAL 310-452-2769 Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) www.Kathyseal.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 19:57:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:57:47 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <1111519438.424070ce66d80@my.visi.com> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in > South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and > "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>[O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<< some observations: (1) the "all" here (between subject and VP) looks like just a floated quantifier ("they all" = "all of them"), not like a quotative element. (2) *quotative* "be" -- in examples like "And she was, 'You have to go now' " (where what follows the form of "be" is a little performance of the quoted material, perhaps in a dramatically emphatic intonation and/or voice quality) -- is not at all uncommon. but such examples don't have a complementizer "that". (3) so this looks like a kind of *reportive* (indirect-quotation) "be", which seems to prefer "that" in most cases. anyway, what's being offered is not directly an account (however approximate) of some bit of speech, but rather an account of some opinions (which, of course, we know about via what people said, though we make no claim to be supplying even an approximation of their actual productions). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 20:01:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:01:09 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or "all are agreed that"? This kind of slip happens all the time. Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 22, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in > South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and > "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>[O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<< some observations: (1) the "all" here (between subject and VP) looks like just a floated quantifier ("they all" = "all of them"), not like a quotative element. (2) *quotative* "be" -- in examples like "And she was, 'You have to go now' " (where what follows the form of "be" is a little performance of the quoted material, perhaps in a dramatically emphatic intonation and/or voice quality) -- is not at all uncommon. but such examples don't have a complementizer "that". (3) so this looks like a kind of *reportive* (indirect-quotation) "be", which seems to prefer "that" in most cases. anyway, what's being offered is not directly an account (however approximate) of some bit of speech, but rather an account of some opinions (which, of course, we know about via what people said, though we make no claim to be supplying even an approximation of their actual productions). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:05:37 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:05:37 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Actually, I'm with you all the way. It just struck me as really, > really, really weird that replacing "that" with "like" makes that > sentence feel so much better. As one of my old profs used to say, > "How can this *be*?!" see below. > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Kysilko >> Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... >> they're all >> like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." >> >> Maybe it's just me, you're letting floated-quantifier "all" and quotative "all" get mooshed together. the "all" is irrevelant, i think: convert to "all of them are that..." and think about that. >> Quoting Wilson Gray : >> >>> Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence >>> feels. >>> Just a suggestion. but this converts a reportive (of, i think, a relatively uncommon but not unattested type) to a genuine quotative (with "like", and these are *really* common). see my previous posting. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:49:53 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:49:53 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325200109.29252.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote, re "they all are that she...": > How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or > "all are agreed that"? > > This kind of slip happens all the time. what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. what's the mechanism? more important, where do we find (inadvertent) speech errors that are parallel to either of these scenarios? i can't say for sure that there aren't parallels, but they certainly aren't of any well-known type in the speech error literature. you might want to say that "all are that" is a blend of "all agree that" and "all are agreed that". but this is stunningly unlike normal syntactic blends, in that on this analysis the product omits something shared by both of the sources (a form of the verb "agree"), and that's really rare. (syntactic blends arise from competition between plans for two alternative ways of expressing "the same thing", and consequently they tend very strongly to preserve material that's in both plans.) the larger point is that you can't just appeal to "slips" without having some proposal about how the slips arise. > Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? well, i *think* i've seen parallel examples that didn't seem to be slips -- though i don't have a file on them, and trying to google for them is hopeless. however, quotative "be" examples (without "that") are not at all uncommon (isa buchstaller has a pile of these), and reportive "be" (with "that") would be entirely parallel. He was "You're an idiot". He was that I was an idiot. (it's actually hard to imagine the first of these being fairly common without some people innovating the second.) this doesn't settle the matter. some real work has to be done on "be that" examples in real life. (please, *please*, someone look at this. i have more little projects like this going than i could finish in fifty years, much less the time i have left.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:50:34 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:50:34 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050325050301.6E036B253E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [somebody:] >>> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. [Bill Mullins:] >>If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. [Larry Horn:] >I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." What's the source of this one?: If at first you don't succeed Slash your wrists and watch them bleed. When concerned and in great doubt Wave your arms and run about. -- Mark, thinking of Mad Magazine, Edward Gorey, Gelett Burgess, Tom Lehrer, and similar sources, of whom only Lehrer seems plausible for this one [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 21:41:30 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:41:30 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, Jon. I should have pointed that out myself. -Wilson On Mar 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > May I recommend HDAS II for its wide selection of "m.f"-style partial > euphemisms ? > > Including, of course, "m.f." > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: mofo >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or >> "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE >> /mVfV/, >> maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of >> "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes >> "d" >> when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for >> maybe >> a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young >> fellows >> were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, >> but I >> did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been >> euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" >> affectation >> maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic > pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that > vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or > have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case > that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" > really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the > speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware > that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your > parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, > perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, > there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the > Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two > consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning > with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An > example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 22:15:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:15:34 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > > If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > > You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] > but you can't make her think. > >> April Fool, >> Go to school, >> Tell your teacher, >> She's a fool. > > Trick or treat, smell my feet, > Give me something good to eat. > >> I made you look, >> I made you look, >> I made you buy a penny book. > > ....Made you read a story book. I made you look You dirty crook You stole your mama's pocketbook. > >> Fatty, fatty, >> Two by four, >> Swinging on the kitchen door. > > ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in > elementary school for saying this to a girl). > >> My name's West, >> I ain't in this mess. > > From the movie "Pulp Fiction": > "Hey, my name's Paul and this shit's between y'all." (Said by a > character named Paul) > I always assumed it was just some clever dialogue from Quentin > Tarantino, now I'm not so sure. > My name's Wes. Leave me out this mess. My name's Bob. I ain't doin' this job. Make like Ezzard And hit the desert. Step out on the patio, Daddio. To paraphrase Jimmy Durante, "They got a million of 'em." Note that I'm using "they got" in its non-standard meaning of "there are." -Wilson Gray From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Mar 25 22:19:42 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:19:42 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <4e49379b13ee17926f2c1704466f0bad@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." If the "all are that" sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote correctly, there was only that single occurrence. The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," decided that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at the wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over the sentence--nothing grammatical about it. Peter Mc. --On Friday, March 25, 2005 12:49 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > >> How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >> "all are agreed that"? >> >> This kind of slip happens all the time. > > what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first > suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second > proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the > opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by > dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. > what's the mechanism? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Mar 25 22:25:56 2005 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:25:56 -0500 Subject: ..English as a code.. Message-ID: A news item, posted to the list merely for informational purposes. A conceptual approach to programming, from MIT. "Natural languages like English, on the other hand, are universally accessible, said Liu. 'Natural language is so semantically rich and flexible that if it could be computationalized as a programming language, maybe everyone could write programs,' he said." Story at: http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2005/032305/Tool_turns_English_to_code_032305.html George Cole Shippensburg University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 22:27:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:27:17 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:29 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> OT: GOODBYE AOL? >> >> My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last >> night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I >> downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle >> through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. >> >> Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road >> Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? >> > > Get a cable modem from your cable TV company. > And make sure to find out what their installation and other fees are. Sometimes, you can get a bunch of stuff free either by switching or sometimes just by threatening to. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 23:56:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:56:30 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A spell check won't find it. You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this is crazy!'" JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote, re "they all are that she...": > How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or > "all are agreed that"? > > This kind of slip happens all the time. what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. what's the mechanism? more important, where do we find (inadvertent) speech errors that are parallel to either of these scenarios? i can't say for sure that there aren't parallels, but they certainly aren't of any well-known type in the speech error literature. you might want to say that "all are that" is a blend of "all agree that" and "all are agreed that". but this is stunningly unlike normal syntactic blends, in that on this analysis the product omits something shared by both of the sources (a form of the verb "agree"), and that's really rare. (syntactic blends arise from competition between plans for two alternative ways of expressing "the same thing", and consequently they tend very strongly to preserve material that's in both plans.) the larger point is that you can't just appeal to "slips" without having some proposal about how the slips arise. > Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? well, i *think* i've seen parallel examples that didn't seem to be slips -- though i don't have a file on them, and trying to google for them is hopeless. however, quotative "be" examples (without "that") are not at all uncommon (isa buchstaller has a pile of these), and reportive "be" (with "that") would be entirely parallel. He was "You're an idiot". He was that I was an idiot. (it's actually hard to imagine the first of these being fairly common without some people innovating the second.) this doesn't settle the matter. some real work has to be done on "be that" examples in real life. (please, *please*, someone look at this. i have more little projects like this going than i could finish in fifty years, much less the time i have left.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 23:59:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:59:26 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Exactly what I did not have the smarts to express, Peter. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." If the "all are that" sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote correctly, there was only that single occurrence. The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," decided that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at the wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over the sentence--nothing grammatical about it. Peter Mc. --On Friday, March 25, 2005 12:49 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > >> How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >> "all are agreed that"? >> >> This kind of slip happens all the time. > > what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first > suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second > proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the > opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by > dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. > what's the mechanism? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 26 00:56:38 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:56:38 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: I've had Roadrunner in Akron for about 5 years. We were the first city in the US to get Roadrunner. And I have nothing but praise for them. You can maintain your AOL account dial up for as little as $4.95/month. This gives you a certain amount of minutes online/month, but I don't remember. Go to "Keyword" "billing" and explore. sam From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 01:26:56 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:26:56 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325200109.29252.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >>"all are >>agreed that"? > >>This kind of slip happens all the time. Why assume it's a new linguistic >>feature? > >>JL ~~~~~~~ >what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first >suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? >.. arnold ~~~~~~~~ At the risk of shutting off an interesting discussion, I have to say it seems all-too-easy to account for an omission of this sort as an artifact of keyboarding/emailing. Meaning to substitute a better word for the first one chosen, deleting the one & then forgetting to replace it with the better. Proofreading, as we all know, can overlook an error when we know what we *meant* to say. A. Murie I had written the above & tried to send it but found the line in use, so went on to read the rest of the accumulated posts, among which was Peter's saying the same thing, in effect. Can't be the Ohio effect, since Peter & I share that with arnold....maybe Oregon comes into it, somehow............? From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 02:00:22 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:00:22 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1111760382@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is > called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." to pick some nits: there are many kinds of typos, of which the cut-and-paste variety is just one. i have a small collection of the cut-and-paste type, but none quite like this one. (but see below.) > If the "all are that" > sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less > likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote > correctly, there was only that single occurrence. > > The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," > decided > that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in > agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or > gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at > the > wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the > mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over > the > sentence--nothing grammatical about it. ah, this last is a skip-ahead typo, and it is indeed common. the "they all are that..." example could have been a typo of this sort. i see now that the other scenarios above are possible, too. look, i'm not insisting that this one example has to be a grammatical innovation. i *am* entertaining that possibility, because it resembles examples i've seen that are very unlikely to be slips of any sort. meanwhile, i'm strongly objecting to the view that if some production can be seen as a slip of some sort, then it should be, and consequently should be dismissed from further discussion. one thing i need to stress, again, for the hundredth or so time: the very same production can have different statuses on different occasions. in particular, for some people at some times it can be an inadvertent error, a slip of one sort or another, while for other people or on other occasions, it can be a genuine variant form -- advertent, though divergent from many other people's varieties. in the case at hand, it would be really nice to know what the original writer thought about this production. and to find out if similar productions occur in speech (where the mechanisms that might give rise to this particular kind of typo are probably not at work). and to see if this writer produces similar occurrences with some frequency. and to see what other people do. consider the case of "be done one's X", as in "I'm done my homework" 'I'm done with my homework'. if you saw one example in writing, you might say that it was obviously a skip-ahead typo, an inadvertent elimination of intended "with", and so deserves no attention from students of linguistic variation. (it would be of interest only to (psycho)linguists and psychologists who study speech errors.) but then it turns out that there are plenty of examples. from speech as well as writing. and people who use it say that that's what they meant to say. so variationists/dialectologists have to take it seriously, even if they've never noticed it before and find it flatly ungrammatical for them. what i'm saying about the "be that+S" example is that i know enough to think that it might not be a slip. provisionally, i'm taking it seriously. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 02:27:50 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:27:50 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325235630.54721.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of > slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily > distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A > spell check won't find it. > > You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this > is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" the first is very frequent indeed, and the second has been attested for roughly 25 years and is not a slip of any sort. > But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this > is crazy!'" the first is certainly attested in speech (and sometimes in informal writing) and does not appear to be an error. things like "She was that 'I'm crazy about it' " -- a stab at direct quotation -- strike me as really dubious, but they're not what we were talking about, which is things like "She was that she was crazy about it" -- indirect quotation. i *think* i've heard/seen examples of this. i'm at home now, away from the material i have on this stuff, and it's not on my computer. unfortunately, the data i have isn't coded for the relevant characteristics, so i'd have to sort through it by hand, which is tedious indeed. a possibly analogous case... work on "is is" (or "double BE" or whatever you call it) reveals that though the second form of "be" (in things like "The thing is is that we have to go") *can* be a kind of disfluency, a mere repetition or partial restart, it very frequently is just a part of certain speakers' (and some writers') English. more recently, my own data collection (as part of a group project at stanford) shows that (a) there are many more types of systematic "is is" than i had ever imagined could occur (*if you don't listen for them, you don't hear them*), and (b) there are speakers for whom "is is" is virtually categorical, occurring nearly every time it would be possible -- these people just don't produce single-"is" examples like "The thing is that I have to go" -- though i would never have imagined that there were such people. the moral is that just because you don't think you've ever heard it doesn't mean it doesn't occur (even occur frequently). and, of course, that just because something is sometimes a slip doesn't mean that it always (or even usually) is. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 03:38:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:38:58 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative "new structure" is similarly well established. Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this phenomenon needs to better substantiated. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of > slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily > distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A > spell check won't find it. > > You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this > is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" the first is very frequent indeed, and the second has been attested for roughly 25 years and is not a slip of any sort. > But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this > is crazy!'" the first is certainly attested in speech (and sometimes in informal writing) and does not appear to be an error. things like "She was that 'I'm crazy about it' " -- a stab at direct quotation -- strike me as really dubious, but they're not what we were talking about, which is things like "She was that she was crazy about it" -- indirect quotation. i *think* i've heard/seen examples of this. i'm at home now, away from the material i have on this stuff, and it's not on my computer. unfortunately, the data i have isn't coded for the relevant characteristics, so i'd have to sort through it by hand, which is tedious indeed. a possibly analogous case... work on "is is" (or "double BE" or whatever you call it) reveals that though the second form of "be" (in things like "The thing is is that we have to go") *can* be a kind of disfluency, a mere repetition or partial restart, it very frequently is just a part of certain speakers' (and some writers') English. more recently, my own data collection (as part of a group project at stanford) shows that (a) there are many more types of systematic "is is" than i had ever imagined could occur (*if you don't listen for them, you don't hear them*), and (b) there are speakers for whom "is is" is virtually categorical, occurring nearly every time it would be possible -- these people just don't produce single-"is" examples like "The thing is that I have to go" -- though i would never have imagined that there were such people. the moral is that just because you don't think you've ever heard it doesn't mean it doesn't occur (even occur frequently). and, of course, that just because something is sometimes a slip doesn't mean that it always (or even usually) is. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 26 04:09:07 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:09:07 -0500 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two words, is there a technical name? Is this still a portmanteau? And, what's the earliest word of this type? I assume that portmanteau is the technical name for taking the first syllable of one word and the final syllable of another and combing them to form a new word, such as motel. I know that this word form goes back to at least Lewis Carrol. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 05:15:39 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:15:39 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050326033858.62006.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're > attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - > particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - > simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in > speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative > "new structure" is similarly well established. exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction could be heard all the time. > Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need > explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an > epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this > phenomenon needs to better substantiated. jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd heard some of the second. you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of hand? what am i, chopped liver? i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless there's a significant body of them. i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i myself can supply a body of evidence, now. i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't *you* get on the job? arnold From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 10:05:17 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:05:17 -0800 Subject: Local meaning Hawaiian Message-ID: In an article in the Seattle Sun (March 9 to April 6 2005, Vol. 9, Iss. No. 3) entitled "What's Cookin'", the word "local" is used twice to mean Hawaiian. (I also should note that the spelling "Hawai'ian" is used, backed up by 38,700 hits on Google, but is this pronunciation really used?) "Some of the more authentically Hawai'ian dishes on Clara's menu are grilled short ribs (market price) which in the islands is known as Korean kolbi [sic: kalbi]; and chicken cutlet ($10), a boneless, breaded chicken called katsu in Hawai'i. Locals also eat pork prepared in the same way known as tonkatsu." The only sensible interpretation of "local" that I can see is "Hawaaiian person" rather than a Seattle local. It appears again in the same article, this time as an adjective: "Clara's offers no poi or local favorite spam musobi [sic: musubi] either." Benjamin Barrett From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 26 10:17:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:17:13 -0500 Subject: Hugungous! Message-ID: Noted on Gawker.com : ----- According to The New York Times’ William Grimes, memoirs are huge. Huger than huge! Hugungous! ----- A blend of "huge" and "hum-o/u-ngous"... though "humongous" is itself supposedly a blend of "huge" and "monstrous" (or "tremendous"). So is this a reblending? Some Google-counts: hugungous 90 hugongous 32 hujungous 12 hujongous 20 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugungus 25 hugongus 5 hugeungous 11 hugeongous 3 huge-ungous 21 huge-ongous 1 hugemongous 1,600 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugemungous 448 huge-mongous 301 huge-mungous 114 hugemongus 329 hugemungus 139 (incl. Urban Dictionary) huge-mongus 37 huge-mungus 208 hugeomongous 34 hugeomungous 3 huge-o-mungous 21 huge-o-mongous 16 hugeamongous 33 hugeamungous 3 huge-a-mongous 20 huge-a-mungous 5 --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:08:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:08:06 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I didn't mean to be insulting, Arnold, or to claim that my recollections trump yours, or to insist that this structure cannot exist. My post simply expressed a measure of professional skepticism and offered a conceivable alternative hypothesis for your consideration. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're > attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - > particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - > simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in > speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative > "new structure" is similarly well established. exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction could be heard all the time. > Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need > explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an > epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this > phenomenon needs to better substantiated. jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd heard some of the second. you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of hand? what am i, chopped liver? i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless there's a significant body of them. i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i myself can supply a body of evidence, now. i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't *you* get on the job? arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:17:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:17:37 -0800 Subject: mongotacular = "enormous, staggeringly huge" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Apparently unique but noteworthy anyway : "These drinks were coming in the mongotacular huge-o-rama sizes not meant for human consumption." - www.livejournal.com/users/pseudonymous/28173.html (Feb. 22, 2003). JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Hugungous! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Noted on Gawker.com : ----- According to The New York Times� William Grimes, memoirs are huge. Huger than huge! Hugungous! ----- A blend of "huge" and "hum-o/u-ngous"... though "humongous" is itself supposedly a blend of "huge" and "monstrous" (or "tremendous"). So is this a reblending? Some Google-counts: hugungous 90 hugongous 32 hujungous 12 hujongous 20 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugungus 25 hugongus 5 hugeungous 11 hugeongous 3 huge-ungous 21 huge-ongous 1 hugemongous 1,600 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugemungous 448 huge-mongous 301 huge-mungous 114 hugemongus 329 hugemungus 139 (incl. Urban Dictionary) huge-mongus 37 huge-mungus 208 hugeomongous 34 hugeomungous 3 huge-o-mungous 21 huge-o-mongous 16 hugeamongous 33 hugeamungous 3 huge-a-mongous 20 huge-a-mungous 5 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:30:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:30:53 -0800 Subject: "Lazarus species" Message-ID: 2005 _Discover_ (Apr.) 70 "Paleontologists have documented a number of plants and animals that disappear at the end of the Permian, stay gone for millions of years, and re-emerge in the middle Triassic. They call these Lazarus species." Goes back to 1995 on Usenet. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:35:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:35:26 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Terminology" In-Reply-To: <20050326133053.83637.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: terminology (OED 1801) 1771 Bielfeld, Jacob Friedrich, Freiherr von. The elements of universal erudition. 164 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The anatomists divide their art into several parts, and these divisions are not without their utility: they prevent confusion in a science whose terminology alone requires a considerable study. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:43:40 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:43:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Footnote" In-Reply-To: <20050326133053.83637.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: footnote (OED 1841) 1713 John Gillan _A vindication of the fundamental charter of presbytery_ 183 (Eighteeenth Century Collections Online) ERRATA. ... P. 95. L. 13. in the Foot-Note. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:52:55 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:52:55 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Monograph" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: monograph (OED3 1804) 1797 William Curtis _Botanical Magazine_ XI. 363 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Prof. JACQUIN has given us a monograph on the genus _Oxalis_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:55:32 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:55:32 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Terminology" (Corrected Citation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > terminology (OED 1801) > > 1771 Bielfeld, Jacob Friedrich, Freiherr von. The elements of universal > erudition. I. 164 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The > anatomists divide their art into several parts, and these divisions are > not without their utility: they prevent confusion in a science whose > terminology alone requires a considerable study. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:03:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:03:18 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pluralism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pluralism (OED 1818) 1772 Pennington, W.. A free inquiry into the origin, progress, and present state of pluralities. 54 We are sure from historic facts, they could see the turpitude of Pluralism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:06:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:06:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Autocrat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: autocrat (OED 1803) 1797 Mercier, Louis Sbastien. Astras return; or, the halcyon days of France in the year 2440: a dream. Translated from the French, by Harriot Augusta Freeman. 295 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The constitution is not military, and the sovereign no longer styles himself Autocrat, and the whole world is too much enlightened to admit of that odious formality. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:32:14 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:32:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pedophile" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pedophile (OED3 1949) 1941 _Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology_ XXXII. 366 We do not know exactly why one person psychophysically infantile becomes an exhibitionist and the other becomes a pedophile. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:47:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: victimology (OED 1958) 1950 _Federal Probation_ XIV. 58 We need, says the author, a science of victimology. [NOTE: This refers to Fredric Wertham, _The Show of Violence_ (1949), which may well contain an earlier usage of this word.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 15:04:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:04:33 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. Newspaperarchive has occurrences back to 1913. ProQuest Historical Newspapers is down right now, so I can't check that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 26 15:09:43 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:09:43 -0800 Subject: terms for words In-Reply-To: <005501c531b9$8e91fc90$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" It's a portmanteau or blend. > Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two > words, is there a technical name? It's an acronym. Acronyms are not restricted to the first letter. Many of the definitions use the term "initial element," which includes the first letter, the first several letters, and the first syllable. I don't know about earliest, but many military acronyms are based, at least in part, on initial syllables: SACEUR, Supreme Allied Commander EURope; NORAD, NORth American Air Defense command; PACAF, PACific Air Forces, etc. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 26 15:51:51 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:51:51 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20O=20tempura,=20o=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?morays!=20or,=20Who=20needs=20an=20editor=20when=20you=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?halve=20a=20spell=20chequer=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/22/05 11:54:46 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > it is not uncommon to see the captain with > >his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping > it > >in front of fans > And what exactly is it that they are pulling and flapping in front of the fans??? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Mar 26 16:28:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:28:42 -0600 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: > >It's an acronym. Acronyms are not restricted to the first letter. Many of >the definitions use the term "initial element," which includes the first >letter, the first several letters, and the first syllable. I don't know >about earliest, but many military acronyms are based, at least in part, on >initial syllables: SACEUR, Supreme Allied Commander EURope; NORAD, NORth >American Air Defense command; PACAF, PACific Air Forces, etc. The Navy is particularly bad about this. COMSUBPACFLT (Commander, Submarine forces in the Pacific Fleet) goes back to WWII, at least. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 16:33:18 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:18 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? In-Reply-To: <111.46ce1f10.2f76df17@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/22/05 11:54:46 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > >>it is not uncommon to see the captain with >> >>>his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping >> >>it >> >>>in front of fans >> > > And what exactly is it that they are pulling and flapping in front of the > fans??? The logo or team name on the front of the jersey. -- AF From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 26 16:43:01 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:43:01 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. -- Doug Wilson From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Mar 26 16:58:08 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:58:08 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries Message-ID: Dear Fred, Thanks for the 1913 quote. My entry for prophesize in the Dictionary Companion was constructed before I used NewspaperArchive.com: The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. the fist note at the end of the entry] prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with communication; common) People in the Bible believed the Earth was flat because they didn't know any better. And so it has always been with the false prophets: They prophecize many impossible things because they don't know any better. Science has always brought more knowledge and wisdom to the human race, conquered many diseases and has kept whole civilizations from going the way of the dinosaur. William Haffner (Twin Falls, Idaho) in a letter to the editor in The Idaho Statesman [Boise] (Nexis), April 13, 2000, p 8b If one looks up "forecast" in the dictionary, forecasting is defined as the attempt to predict, foresee, prophecize, plan, or otherwise develop outlooks for future events. The innate need to see into the future has been recognized by political and business figures throughout history. Mark J. Lawless, "Forecasting in the 1990s:' Journal of Business Forecasting Methods & Systems (Nexis), Fall 1997, p 9-12 This was no ordinary deck. It was an exquisite multilevel collage of wood, brick and summer dreams. Though the magazine itself reflected simpler times and failed to prophecize modern deckmania by announcing that "It's obviously more complicated than anything anybody will actually construct out back," it was definitely what I wanted when I entered the universe of property ownership. Diane C. Arkins, "Patio Passe? Try Building Your Own Dream Deck," Chicago Sun-Times (Nexis), March 10,1995, p 25 RIVERA: Yes, Elizabeth? Well, Elizabeth, let me just show the people the books that you've written. I didn't-OK, Elizabeth Baron has writ- ten, "Prophets or-"Prophets or Profits"-you know, prophets that prophecize; profit, make money. Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Psychics, But Were Afraid to Ask," and "The Art of Silence: Meditating the Western Way." Geraldo Rivera, "There's A Ghost In My House: Driving Out The Demons," Geraldo Show (Nexis), June 24, 1994 "1 just do not believe that we can serve the needs of justice in this coun- try with the mounting amount of litigation taking place," he said. "Reagan justices," Senator Cranston prophecized, "would have an extreme right-wing ideological bent that would influence their thinking." His comment was similar to the one he made in 1971 when he opposed the confirma- tion of William H. Rehnquist as a justice. David A. Kaplan, "The Dropouts' Views; What Might Have Been," The National Law Journal (Nexis), March 19, 1984, p 36 1984 (but presumed to be earlier). Composite (suffixation): formed from prophec(y) (BDE: before 1200) + -ize (OED: 1593), as in genericize (DC 12.4: 1985). There is an entry in OED (1815) for phrophecize; Murray labeled this "nonce." Lord Kinnaird whispering, gesticulating, and prophecising. Countess Harriet Granville, Letters 1810-1845, vol. 1, p 87 American Dialect Society on Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 10:04 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Fred Shapiro >Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob >Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word >_prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > >Newspaperarchive has occurrences back to 1913. ProQuest Historical >Newspapers is down right now, so I can't check that. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sun Mar 27 20:14:24 2005 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:14:24 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Dear Mr. Gray: I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm also a long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something more than 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big in my late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In listening to it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought ocurred that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears from a casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into compliments. You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these matters. Do you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or if my impression is on or off target? Will appreciate your comments. Bob Fitzke From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 17:43:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower has pointed out that "prophecize" is in OED (I hadn't looked under that spelling). Sorry for the error. Now I've joined David Shulman, who frequently proclaimed that he had gotten "snowman" into the dictionaries despite the fact that it had long been in many dictionaries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:30:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:30:02 -0500 Subject: terms for words In-Reply-To: <005501c531b9$8e91fc90$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0500 3/25/05, Sam Clements wrote: >What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" Hmm. I guess I've always assimilated them to the category of blends, although in principle we could distinguish between these examples and the cases where neither component is an independent word, i.e. the classic portmanteaux like "motel" and "smog" In some cases, it's hard to tell which way an item falls (netiquette, cremains). > >Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two >words, is there a technical name? Is this still a portmanteau? >And, what's the earliest word of this type? I call them "clipronyms", since they're a cross between clipping and acronymy, but I'd welcome a better label. I wonder if German wouldn't be the place to look for early examples, given the exploitation of the process there (Nazi, Gestapo), although of course the Soviets engaged in the same practice (Cominform, Comintern). How long has "Nabisco" been around? > >I assume that portmanteau is the technical name for taking the first >syllable of one word and the final syllable of another and combing >them to form a new word, such as motel. I know that this word form >goes back to at least Lewis Carrol. At least Carroll's Jabberwocky ("chortle", "mimsy", etc.) is where the "portmanteau" label originated. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:43:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:43:32 -0500 Subject: Local meaning Hawaiian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:05 AM -0800 3/26/05, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?In an article in the Seattle Sun (March 9 to April 6 2005, Vol. 9, Iss. No. >3) entitled "What's Cookin'", the word "local" is used twice to mean >Hawaiian. (I also should note that the spelling "Hawai'ian" is used, backed >up by 38,700 hits on Google, but is this pronunciation really used?) > >"Some of the more authentically Hawai'ian dishes on Clara's menu are grilled >short ribs (market price) which in the islands is known as Korean kolbi >[sic: kalbi]; and chicken cutlet ($10), a boneless, breaded chicken called >katsu in Hawai'i. Locals also eat pork prepared in the same way known as >tonkatsu." > >The only sensible interpretation of "local" that I can see is "Hawaaiian >person" rather than a Seattle local. > >It appears again in the same article, this time as an adjective: > >"Clara's offers no poi or local favorite spam musobi [sic: musubi] either." I wouldn't say "local" *means* Hawaiian [I'll delete the glottal stop, since that's not relevant to this issue], any more than that "I" *means* 'Larry Horn' when I use it, or 'Benjamin Barrett' when you do. It's a deictic term that picks up its reference from the context. This has been discussed by semanticists--if Geoff Nunberg is lurking, he'd be the one to provide detailed references--but consider "When I go to Seattle, I always visit the local sushi joints", where "local" designates 'of Seattle'. Of course, what's doing the envelope-pushing in your example is that the context for assigning the reference of "local(s)" is the "in Hawaii" in the previous sentence. But I'd wager it's only because the writer thinks s/he's fixed "Hawaii" as the relevant context that "local" can refer to "Hawaiian". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:45:59 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:45:59 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050326113743.02fe1080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0500 3/26/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? > >I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, >although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see >the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. > Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 26 20:37:02 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:37:02 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? >> >>I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, >>although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see >>the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. >Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological >variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps "conversate" for "converse" (v.) would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), even very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, are excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 26 21:01:31 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:01:31 -0500 Subject: "Lazarus species" Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:30:53 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >2005 _Discover_ (Apr.) 70 "Paleontologists have documented a number of >plants and animals that disappear at the end of the Permian, stay gone >for millions of years, and re-emerge in the middle Triassic. They call >these Lazarus species." > >Goes back to 1995 on Usenet. "Lazarus effect" was coined by the paleobiologist David Jablonski in 1983 ("Extinction is Here to Stay" _Paleobiology_ Vol. 9, No. 4, Autumn 1983, p. 319). JSTOR has cites for "Lazarus taxa" from 1986 and "Lazarus species" from 1988. Coincidentally (or not?), Frank Herbert of _Dune_ fame coauthored a sci-fi novel with Bill Ransom called _The Lazarus Effect_, also in 1983. --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 26 21:17:14 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: THE SHOW OF VIOLENCE by Fredric Wetham Garden CIty, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1949 Pg. 279 (Index): Victimology, 259 Pg. 259: The murder victim is the forgotten man. What with sensational discussions on the abnormal psychology of the murderer, we have failed to emphasize the unprotectedness of the victim and the complacency of the authorities. One cannot understand the psychology of the murderer if one does not understand the sociology of his victim. What we need is a science of victimology. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" victimology (OED 1958) 1950 _Federal Probation_ XIV. 58 We need, says the author, a science of victimology. [NOTE: This refers to Fredric Wertham, _The Show of Violence_ (1949), which may well contain an earlier usage of this word.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 21:46:05 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:46:05 -0500 Subject: all-too-easy proofreading Message-ID: sagehen wrote: >At the risk of shutting off an interesting discussion, I have to say it seems all-too-easy to account for an omission of this sort as an artifact of keyboarding/emailing. Meaning to substitute a better word for the first one chosen, deleting the one & then forgetting to replace it with the better. Proofreading, as we all know, can overlook an error when we know what we *meant* to say.< ~~~~~~ An unintentional demonstration! Shoulda said "very easy." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 23:09:51 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:09:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Aggressive" In-Reply-To: <200503262117.j2QLHMAd005232@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: This is one of the most surprisingly weak first uses I have ever encountered in the OED, considering that Samuel Richardson was a major author whose works were presumably read carefully by OED. aggressive (OED 1824) 1716 Well-wisher to his King and country. The Tories address to King G----e. A satirical poem. Representing the conduct of that set of men, from their origin, to the present time. 37 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) As if All-ruling Providence Were pleas'd to punish our Offence, By our _Aggressive_ Treasons vile. 1749 Samuel Richardson _Clarissa_ (ed. 2) IV. 104 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Yet is pleased, that he proposes to avoid _aggressive_ violence, if her Brother and he meet in town. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 26 23:15:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:15:50 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 12:15 AM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're >> attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - >> particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - >> simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in >> speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative >> "new structure" is similarly well established. > > exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have > denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell > reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that > that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in > australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually > all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction > could be heard all the time. FWIW, the fact that I'm an "is is" speaker was pointed out to me by Phil LeSourd of the Dept. of Anthro, at Indiana. This was in 1977, when he and I were roommates. At first, I refused to believe that this "'is is" was a feature of my idiolect, since I had never heard myself use such ungrammatical syntax. When I use ungrammatical English, it's on purpose and I'm fully aware of it. However, after a couple of hours of having Phil point out each occurrence of my use of "is is," I was forced to admit that "'is is" *is* a feature of my idiolect. Until I'd read of other instances of "is is" posted here, I thought that I was the only "is is" speaker on the face of the earth. I exaggerate, of course. In truth, I'd never given it a second thought till it began to be discussed here. Hey, you think maybe I'm, like, the originator of this anomaly? ;-) -Wilson Gray > >> Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need >> explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an >> epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this >> phenomenon needs to better substantiated. > > jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you > don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, > 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have > to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've > seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd > heard some of the second. > > you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i > find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could > claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. > > yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of > hand? what am i, chopped liver? > > i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of > examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting > them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're > talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even > if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless > there's a significant body of them. > > i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging > researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't > think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i > myself can supply a body of evidence, now. > > i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that > there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of > conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't > *you* get on the job? > > arnold > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 23:56:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:56:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Policeman" In-Reply-To: <200503262310.j2QNAUdQ009422@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: policeman (OED 1801) 1791 _The Parliamentary register: or, history of the proceedings and debates of the House of Commons of Ireland_ X. 310 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Has not the policeman been guilty of more insolence and outrage than ever the soldier was. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:03:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:03:36 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Leadership" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: leadership (OED 1821) 1765 Temple, Richard Grenville-Temple, Earl. The principles of the late changes impartially examined: in a letter from a Son of Candor to the Public Advertiser. The second edition. 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The Ministers, 'tis very confidently said, have not yet been able to settle the important point of the leadership among themselves. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 00:28:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? >>> >>> I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a >>> glance, >>> although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't >>> see >>> the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. >> Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological >> variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. > > Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:44:50 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:44:50 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps > >> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) > >Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >the sense of "sweet-talk" v. In hiphop usage, at least, it can range from "sweet-talk" to "have a serious conversation". See the Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive: http://google.com/search?q=site:ohhla.com+conversate|conversatin|conversating|conversated I see there's a fair bit of conversatin' about "conversate" in the archive. --Ben Zimmer From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:48:46 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:48:46 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Quotative [to be] + "that" Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Isabelle K Buchstaller > Date: March 26, 2005 1:31:01 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" > > Here are some examples with 'was' from my corpus. > They are all direct speech > sorry I can't furnish you with any indirect ones (that + deictic shift) > cause I have only collected direct quotes. > > But I can tell you that people tend to have funny reactions to unframed > quotes (by unframed I mean everything without a canonical verb of > quotation > or at least a new quotative). > This means examples such as the "was" ones as well as purely unframed > ones such as > > and he "aaargggg" > or just and "bang" > > or something. > About 20% of my British and American quotes do not contain any verb of > quotation (again this includes the be ones as well as others as > indicated > above) and people just seem not to hear them. > When I play them, many people claim they do not exist - so your > discussion > partner is in good company ;) > X: that;s right yeah > Y: and then you went and it was you turn to go out > X: yeah > Y: as soon as you got out of there it was “goop you’ve seen the > pictures > and Jacky used to go “ohhh ?? I I went there” > X: ohhh ay the Geddy was something > I used to go up in the what did you call it up in the ehhh fire exit > > > B: oh no that when I used to go like > I used to go clubbing and that in the town > I used to tell me ma like I was “I just go in the town anon > and be ah I’ll stay with me friends” > but I never used to like get to us like > A: [ha ha ha > B: [she never knew > > > A: I mean at work at work twenty-five your old woman talks about you > behind your back > B: and you’d think that like like[you know a bit worried > A: [are you worried > B: caught up in the railway [((indistinct)) > A: [I mean even if she had anything to say > it was “why can’t you say” it was “ehm to me face” > B: exactly > A: and I started saying it to somebody else > I mean you always find out > > > A: cause she’s told Carol house for not loose her > she’s “ohh yeah > me mom and dad’s going away > and don’t leave the house empty” > B: tshhh > A: but you know I was “what are you saying > Neil is not letting you go” > cause we went ehhh nahh belly dancing > when it was her 21st > no sorry it was his dau- his sister’s engageme > > > A: street around the corner > like “ehhh > at least I have resolved some of the transport service of > Newcastle” voice > wehhh > and they give us that actually in a snack > “obs- it’s very import that you win those” > I was “for the petty PTE” you know what I mean > so I got up > I went to London ehhh > and XX tell us it was the PTE social club > [and I was “come here straight away” > B: [was there all the employees was there? > and all the workers > A: and I went there > B: her gran’s 77th birthday > > > A: yeah > and it’s all a pain in the ass > at least half of these fellows are all “piahh that’s crap” > so I was “pffhhhh I’ve had it” > your stomach turned upside > B: ha > A: I couldn’t believe it > it was really bad > > > B: and then > no that’s they ch- again and then the there was a > she was “oh they were going Northumbrian Arms” > and she ment like Newcastle Arms > when then there it was one eighty > > > but eh he “must tell you I had a really bad night” > cause he said “oh thanks partner > you’re the first person that has given us a tip” > I was “.hhhhhhh yeahh” > he was telling me and it was half past twelve > so > B: I ammm last time I were in class > from town to here > > > > I said “just around the corner “ > he gans “haw I’ll take you around” > I was “oh I haven’t got any more money” > B: and you want me ??? > A: and even “I I’ll knock the meter off for you” > we gans “thanks” ehhh > went out on Saturday got out the same taxi driver > B: and it was the same again > > > I can say “don’t ask me for anything” > B: but don’t look careful > A: “you are not good enough” > she was “care keeps stating this” > I goes “I wouldn’t be saying it if I was care-free” ha stupid > B: I’m a completely different person From langwidge at EROLS.COM Sun Mar 27 00:42:45 2005 From: langwidge at EROLS.COM (crg) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:42:45 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:07:16 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:07:16 EST Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer writes > The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general sense of > 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive suggests > that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. I learned the word "oxymoron" during the 1965-66 school year from my freshman American Literature professor. I cannot recall his exact words so I cannot say whether he defined it as a deliberate rhetorical figure (is that what you meant?) or simply as "a contradiction in terms", but ever since then I have used it with the latter meaning. The next time I recall using "oxymoron" was in a statistics class in the early 1970's, when the instructor used the term "normal deviates" (yes, that is a technical term in statistics) and paused to comment on its being a contradiction, as was "cells multiply by dividing". The class contributed a few more, including "Catholic parochial school." Here's a cross-check. The American Lit professor was Frederick Reeve, who sometime before 1965 worked on Webster's New World Dictionary. You might check an early edition of WNWD (I have a copy but I can't find it at the moment) and see how it defines "oxymoron". OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was used in one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science Fiction sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson prides himself (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated that punch line, or at least thought he did. However, that does not rule out Dorothy Parker having originated it independently at an earlier date. MAD magazine circa 1960 had as the motto of unreconstructed Confederates "If at first you don't secede, try try again". Which reminds me, my father was fond of the word "unreconstructed" meaning "reactionary", "antediluvian" etc, and I picked it up from him (as in the previous sentence) Is this a common usage? - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:11:23 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:11:23 EST Subject: Antedating of "Idealism" Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:13:44 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > idealism (OED 1796) > > 1773 Denis Diderot _An Essay on Blindness_ 50 (Eighteenth Century > Collections Online) Idealism deserves very well to be reported to him; > and this hypothesis is as a double incentive for him, his singularity, and > much more the difficulty of refuting its principles, they being precisely > the same as those of Berkeley. Is 1773 the date of an English translation? I don't believe Diderot ever wrote in English. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 01:27:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:27:57 -0800 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Q. Can it be that "prophesy" and "prophesize / prophecize" are synonyms as close as "gorse" and "furze"? A. Perhaps - but "gorse" and "furze" remain more interesting because they derive from entirely different etyma. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesse Sheidlower has pointed out that "prophecize" is in OED (I hadn't looked under that spelling). Sorry for the error. Now I've joined David Shulman, who frequently proclaimed that he had gotten "snowman" into the dictionaries despite the fact that it had long been in many dictionaries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:34:52 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:34:52 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: > For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA > their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for > The Kingston Trio many years ago. > > Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship > Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of > which shared the same tune. > > The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never > heard the song. Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary school days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio version "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the same tune! Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit Authority" in 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated Railway. The name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" (generally known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside Boston joined in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system became known as the MTA. (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro VT: The Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes As recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. plummeted [sick] to popularity nation-wide." The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late 1970's there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig up the reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been forgotten. There was also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton Fadiman in "Fantasia Mathematica") Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the MTA song: someone told me that the original version read Fight the fare increase Vote for Walter J. O'Brien and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a Socialist." One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs Fight the fare increase Vote for George O'Brien which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so what party did he belong to? - James A. Landau From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 27 01:37:29 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:37:29 -0600 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 1:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: terms for words > How long has "Nabisco" been around? Trademarked 1901. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 01:45:11 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:45:11 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <60f75ba37147dc6b8529b9d7da298aad@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 4:48 PM, I wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Isabelle K Buchstaller >> Date: March 26, 2005 1:31:01 AM PST >> To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >> >> Here are some examples with 'was' from my corpus. >> They are all direct speech... to make this all more interesting: there's a real possibility that the plain-"be" examples were the earliest, and that nobody noticed them until they got expanded with "like", "all", etc. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 02:23:34 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:23:34 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <1a94d21a4b6fe1901dee40f26f0f5390@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:15 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > FWIW, the fact that I'm an "is is" speaker was pointed out to me by > Phil LeSourd of the Dept. of Anthro, at Indiana. This was in 1977, when > he and I were roommates. At first, I refused to believe that this "'is > is" was a feature of my idiolect, since I had never heard myself use > such ungrammatical syntax. When I use ungrammatical English, it's on > purpose and I'm fully aware of it. However, after a couple of hours of > having Phil point out each occurrence of my use of "is is," I was > forced to admit that "'is is" *is* a feature of my idiolect. Until I'd > read of other instances of "is is" posted here, I thought that I was > the only "is is" speaker on the face of the earth. I exaggerate, of > course. In truth, I'd never given it a second thought till it began to > be discussed here. > > Hey, you think maybe I'm, like, the originator of this anomaly? ;-) not particularly likely. though it's hard to trace it back before the 70s -- almost surely because people took it to be a disfluency (as most people do today), so no one noticed it or recorded it. lots of points to phil lesourd for picking up on it. meanwhile, as i said before, i keep finding new types of examples, of sorts i was pretty sure didn't exist. a few weeks ago... there's the "That's X is Y" (Ross-Hagebaum 2004) construction, as in That's what makes the movie so powerful is that... (until a few years ago, i didn't credit *these*, but they're real). these now have, for some speakers, an extra "is": That's what makes the movie so powerful is is that... wonderful, isn't it? i have more. arnold From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Mar 27 03:03:40 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:03:40 -0600 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <200503270134.j2R1YvbQ004256@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: James A. Landau wrote, of "The MTA": > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so > what party did he belong to? I can't answer that question, but I find that the version I have (by the Kingston Trio, but a later recording) is Fight the fare increase Vote for (pause) whoever the hell is running Jim Parish From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 03:14:06 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:14:06 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron In-Reply-To: <1df.386ac88d.2f776144@aol.com> Message-ID: yOn Sat, 26 Mar 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was used > in one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science > Fiction sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson > prides himself (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated > that punch line, or at least thought he did. However, that does not > rule out Dorothy Parker having originated it independently at an earlier > date. This was, of course, Dorothy Parker's greatest witticism. One would hope Spider Robinson was literate enough to know that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 03:42:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:42:06 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >> Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used >> in >> the sense of "sweet-talk" v. > > In hiphop usage, at least, it can range from "sweet-talk" to "have a > serious conversation". See the Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive: > > http://google.com/search?q=site: > ohhla.com+conversate|conversatin|conversating|conversated > > I see there's a fair bit of conversatin' about "conversate" in the > archive. > > --Ben Zimmer > Unfortunately, I've even suffered through the horror of hearing people use "conversate" as though it was an ordinary word meaning merely "carry on a conversation," in use since at least 1066. One unhip kid even told me about keeping a dictionary with him at all times so that he could conversate with anyone, even with someone who used big words that he didn't already know. You know, it's a real bring-down to talk with people who really believe that so little effort is necessary to take life by the horns. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 03:53:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:53:44 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The whole story is told here : http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jdreed/t/charlie.html Bess Lomax Hawes is the younger sister of the late Alan Lomax and daughter of the pioneer folksong collector John A. Lomax. She was one of the Almanac Singers (folkies of 1940-41), a group including, among others, Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: > For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA > their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for > The Kingston Trio many years ago. > > Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship > Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of > which shared the same tune. > > The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never > heard the song. Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary school days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio version "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the same tune! Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit Authority" in 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated Railway. The name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" (generally known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside Boston joined in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system became known as the MTA. (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro VT: The Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes As recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. plummeted [sick] to popularity nation-wide." The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late 1970's there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig up the reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been forgotten. There was also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton Fadiman in "Fantasia Mathematica") Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the MTA song: someone told me that the original version read Fight the fare increase Vote for Walter J. O'Brien and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a Socialist." One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs Fight the fare increase Vote for George O'Brien which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so what party did he belong to? - James A. Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 04:14:05 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:14:05 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:07 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Oxymoron > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500, > Benjamin Zimmer writes > >> The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general >> sense of >> 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive >> suggests >> that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. > > I learned the word "oxymoron" during the 1965-66 school year from my > freshman > American Literature professor. I cannot recall his exact words so I > cannot > say whether he defined it as a deliberate rhetorical figure (is that > what you > meant?) or simply as "a contradiction in terms", but ever since then > I have > used it with the latter meaning. The next time I recall using > "oxymoron" was in > a statistics class in the early 1970's, when the instructor used the > term > "normal deviates" (yes, that is a technical term in statistics) and > paused to > comment on its being a contradiction, as was "cells multiply by > dividing". The > class contributed a few more, including > "Catholic parochial school" I don't get it. Where's the contradiction? Or should the phrase read "catholic parochial schools"? -Wilson Gray > Here's a cross-check. The American Lit professor was Frederick Reeve, > who > sometime before 1965 worked on Webster's New World Dictionary. You > might check > an early edition of WNWD (I have a copy but I can't find it at the > moment) and > see how it defines "oxymoron". > > OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was > used in > one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science > Fiction > sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson prides > himself > (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated that punch > line, or at > least thought he did. However, that does not rule out Dorothy Parker > having > originated it independently at an earlier date. > > MAD magazine circa 1960 had as the motto of unreconstructed > Confederates "If > at first you don't secede, try try again". Which reminds me, my > father was > fond of the word "unreconstructed" meaning "reactionary", > "antediluvian" etc, > and I picked it up from him (as in the previous sentence) Is this a > common > usage? > > - James A. Landau > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 04:29:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:29:31 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, > Page Stephens wrote: > >> For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the >> MTA >> their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major >> hit for >> The Kingston Trio many years ago. >> >> Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were >> The Ship >> Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 >> both of >> which shared the same tune. >> >> The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have >> never >> heard the song. > > Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary > school > days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio > version > "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the > same tune! > > Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit > Authority" in > 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated > Railway. The > name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" > (generally > known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside > Boston joined > in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system > became > known as the MTA. > > (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro > VT: The > Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) > > As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) > "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes > As > recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. > plummeted [sick] > to popularity nation-wide." > > The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late > 1970's > there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig > up the > reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been > forgotten. There was > also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch > (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton > Fadiman in "Fantasia > Mathematica") > "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray > Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the > MTA > song: someone told me that the original version read > Fight the fare increase > Vote for Walter J. O'Brien > and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a > Socialist." > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans > better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien > who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if > so > what party did he belong to? > > - James A. Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 05:13:19 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:13:19 -0500 Subject: "toeing the line" revisited Message-ID: We've established, at least to my satisfaction, that "towing the line" is an eggcorn. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm the observation in the commentary track to "The Gathering Storm" DVD (the 2002 HBO production with Albert Finney as Churchill and Vanessa Redgrave as Clemmie--quite good, I thought) that "toeing the line" originates (not from athletic endeavors but) from the red line painted on the floor of the House of Commons, traditionally two rapier-widths thick, that separates the party in power from the minority party, to prevent bloodshed on the floor? Sounds like it could be plausible, and also like it could be an etymythology, and I have no way of knowing which. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 05:51:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:51:29 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're a bit older than I am, but I'm still old enough to remember "Shine." I was in the eighth grade, I believe, when the song was at the height of its local (St. Louis) popularity. it was certainly one of my favorite songs. But, for some reason, hearing "Shine" seemed to annoy the hell out of my parents and the fact that I thought the song was so great that I went around the house singing it really pissed them off. Finally, they explained it to me. The song, as you suspect, is actually a list of older (That's why I wasn't familiar with them, though my elders were) racist stereotypes about black people: the curly hair, the pearly teeth, the ready smile, dressing in the latest zoot-suitly style, etc., tarted up to make them sound innocuous. And, of course, "shine" itself is right up there with coon, etc. as a derogatory term. So, your intuition is squarely on the mark. Hey, now, Just because my hair is curly Just because my teeth are pearly Just because I always wear a smile Just because I dress in the latest style ... [Big finish] That is why they call me "shine"! Not bad, in my opinion, considering that I haven't heard this song since 1949! I have no idea how Frankie Laine came to sing this song or how it came to be written and I'd just as soon leave it at that. The only one of Laine's songs that I've never had any use for is "Mule Train." Do you remember - well, it's probably on the CD - his "We'll Be Together Again"? The girl who taught me why heartbreak is called heartBREAK rather than something else said to me, "Don't worry. We'll be together again," as she tore my heart out my chest and stomped that sucker flat. Anyway, her saying that engraved the song into my heart. So, I'm willing to forgive "Shine" in exchange for "We'll Be Together Again." -Wilson Gray On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 27 08:00:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 03:00:56 -0500 Subject: One's goat (which can be gotten) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Review of the handy on-line newspapers shows that the "goat" in "get one's goat" was not strictly confined to this fixed expression, which is probably favored by alliteration. One's "goat" is apparently more or less one's composure or self-confidence. My current speculation is that the original reference was to a (metaphoric) mascot (in the old sense of good-luck charm, the opposite of jinx or hoodoo). Many sports teams apparently had goat mascots. The story about race-horses having goat companions is apparently true. However, I do not find any single instance of "getting/stealing/losing [a horse's] goat"; it's always a human being's goat. I speculate that the race-horse's goat was a mascot kept out of superstition (whether or not the horse became attached to it), and I doubt that the specifically horse-related goat was the etymological ancestor of this metaphor ... merely a cousin. Here are the instances which I found in the first few years from N'archive, with my glosses or interpretations: ---------- "His goat and most of his money gone" (Dispirited, with most of his money gone [?]) [1907] "Tigers have lost their 'goat'" (Tigers have lost their confidence [?] [baseball]) [1907] "Get my goat" (Bother or deter me) [1908] "Get my goat" (Amuse me, make me laugh [jokes]) [1908] "This has got my goat" (This has me mystified) [1908] "They've got my goat" (I'm down and out, broke) [1908] "Got his goat" (Got the better of him) [1908] "Had got his goat" (Had intimidated him) [1908] "Got his 'goat'" (Annoyed him [?]) [1908] "Had his goat" (Had him rattled) [1908] "Gets my goat" (Baffles me [where he went]) [1909] "Get my goat" (Annoy me) [1909] "Getting his goat" (Getting the better of him) [1909] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1910] "Got my goat" (Got me baffled [how to cook spinach]) [1910] "What got his goat" (What he couldn't figure out [what to tell his wife]) [1910] "To get his goat" (To make him angry) [1910] "He lost his 'goat'" (He lost his composure [of a jockey]) [1910] "Had his goat" (Had him intimidated) [1910] "Get his goat" (Annoy him) [1910] "Get his goat" (Get him upset) [1910] "Captures our goat" (Trounces us [baseball]) [1910] "My goat is not for sale" (They can't bother me) [1911] "Drops his goat" (Loses his nerve [high-iron worker]) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Amazes or favorably impresses me [a fine theater]) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Angers me) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Astonishes me or seems ironic to me [foibles]) [1911] "You ain't got my goat" (You haven't intimidated me) [1911] "Has really got my goat" (Really has me stumped [unanswerable question]) [1911] "Has got my goat" (Has angered or annoyed me) [1911] "What got my goat" (What gave me particular difficulty) [1911] "He's got my goat" (He has me hoodooed) [1911] "It's about got my goat today" (I'm suffering from the heat today) [1911] "Got my goat completely" (Angered me) [1911] "You've got my goat" (I surrender; you've converted me [evangelical meeting]) [1911] "The life I lead has got my goat" (My life has got me down [?]) [1911] "Get his goat" (Put one over on him [practical joke]) [1911] "Get his goat" (Rattle him [?] [heckling the pitcher]) [1911] "Had his goat" (Had him scared) [1911] "Gaol has got his goat" (Prison has broken his spirit) [1911] "They had corraled his Goat" (They had taken his self-respect [?]) [1911] "He had 'lost his goat'" (He had lost his nerve) [1911] "Raving and roaring for his goat" (Shouting in order to rattle him [baseball fans]) [1911] "Nearly 'got his goat'" (Nearly talked him into something) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Annoys me) [1912] "Can get my goat" (Can affect me [?] [baseball fans' heckling]) [1912] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1912] "Got my goat" (Annoyed me) [1912] "Has quite got my goat" (Has got me baffled [how to get coal]) [1912] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1912] "Got his goat" (Got the better of him [?] [baseball pitcher]) [1912] "Getting his 'goat'" (Getting him rattled) [1912] "A man that has been robbed of his goat" (A man who lacks confidence [?]) [1912] "Got his goat" (Annoyed him) [1912] "It got his 'goat'" (It got the best of him [wine]) [1912] "Got his goat .... lost his goat" (Made him angry .... got angry) [1912] "Get his 'goat'" (Unsettle him [by heckling]) [1912] ---------- To lose one's goat was considered tantamount to failure (in athletics, etc.). "Goat" = "anger" is not apt; rather "goat" = "temper" (opposite of anger, approximately) is about right: "lose one's goat" approximates "lose one's temper" in some cases. -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Mar 27 08:32:54 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:32:54 +0100 Subject: "toeing the line" revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We've established, at least to my satisfaction, that "towing the line" > is an eggcorn. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm the observation in the > commentary track to "The Gathering Storm" DVD (the 2002 HBO production > with Albert Finney as Churchill and Vanessa Redgrave as Clemmie--quite > good, I thought) that "toeing the line" originates (not from athletic > endeavors but) from the red line painted on the floor of the House of > Commons, traditionally two rapier-widths thick, that separates the > party in power from the minority party, to prevent bloodshed on the > floor? Sounds like it could be plausible, and also like it could be an > etymythology, and I have no way of knowing which. This is often claimed, not least by the guides who take visitors around the Houses of Parliament (enough in itself, from experience, to make one query the expression). So far as I'm aware, there's no evidence supporting their belief. The point about the lines was that honorable members were not supposed to cross them. There's nothing in that rule that would very obviously lead to "toeing the line". The early evidence surely points to athletics and pugilism, possibly derived from sailors required to toe the line when mustering, the lines being the joints in the deck planks. Other forms of the early nineteenth century were "toe the mark", "toe the scratch" (definitely from prize fighting), "toe the crack" and "toe the trig" (trig being an old term for a boundary or centre line in various sports). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 18:31:37 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:31:37 -0800 Subject: two word choices Message-ID: two word choices that caught my eye recently. the first is certainly the word the writer had in mind, and it's comprehensible in context, but the usage is new to me. the second is a malaprop, i think, though at the moment i can't call up the right word for the context; malaprops tend to do that to you. 1. from Brendan Lemon's "Letter from the Editor" in the April 2005 issue of Out magazine, p. 23: I wear a basic shirt-and-jeans combo every day and probably couldn't tell you where the T-shirt or trousers came from. My hookups are a different matter: I know the precise provenance of my wristwear or running shoes and why I'm rockin' them this week but not last. [this is "hookups" 'wardrobe accessories', perhaps an extension from "hookups" 'electronic add-ons, accessories', i.e. things you hook up to the basic system. googling supplies various other uses of the noun "hookups" or "hook-ups", including a use for 'branded clothing or accessories', i.e. such items with a team or company name or logo, which connects the item (hooks it up) to the organization. all these uses involve plurals with category ('kind' or 'type') interpretations, like "clothes" 'clothing'. a singular use -- "I wear a different hookup every day" -- strikes me as interpretable but odd] 2. from Erik Reece's "Death of a Mountain" in the April 2005 issue of Harper's Magazine, p. 59: The investigators wanted to cite Martin County Coal for eight violations, including willful negligence. Thompson and Dave Lauriski, MSHA's new assistant secretary, whittled that down to two menial charges. [this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with "venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, technical-sounding substitute for it?] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 20:32:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:31 AM -0800 3/27/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >2. from Erik Reece's "Death of a Mountain" in the April 2005 issue of >Harper's Magazine, p. 59: > >The investigators wanted to cite Martin County Coal for eight >violations, including willful negligence. Thompson and Dave Lauriski, >MSHA's new assistant secretary, whittled that down to two menial >charges. > >[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >technical-sounding substitute for it?] > FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along different sorts of scales) L From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 27 21:14:21 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:14:21 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >different sorts of scales) Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. -- Doug Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 27 21:29:43 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:29:43 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050327160546.02fe9c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >>FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >>labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >>different sorts of scales) > >Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", >thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an >exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. > >-- Doug Wilson ~~~~~~~~ "Minimal" & "measly" come to mind, though "measly" probably not quite the right tone. AM From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 21:55:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:55:25 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the subway for a long time afterwards. It's still weird and great, to the best of my recollection. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, > Page Stephens wrote: > >> For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the >> MTA >> their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major >> hit for >> The Kingston Trio many years ago. >> >> Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were >> The Ship >> Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 >> both of >> which shared the same tune. >> >> The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have >> never >> heard the song. > > Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary > school > days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio > version > "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the > same tune! > > Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit > Authority" in > 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated > Railway. The > name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" > (generally > known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside > Boston joined > in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system > became > known as the MTA. > > (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro > VT: The > Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) > > As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) > "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes > As > recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. > plummeted [sick] > to popularity nation-wide." > > The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late > 1970's > there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig > up the > reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been > forgotten. There was > also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch > (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton > Fadiman in "Fantasia > Mathematica") > "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray > Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the > MTA > song: someone told me that the original version read > Fight the fare increase > Vote for Walter J. O'Brien > and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a > Socialist." > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans > better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien > who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if > so > what party did he belong to? > > - James A. Landau > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 28 00:48:50 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:48:50 -0600 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: Great tesseract story: "And He Built a Crooked House" by Robert Heinlein. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 10:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 01:00:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:00:05 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Will look that one up, Bill. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great tesseract story: "And He Built a Crooked House" by Robert = Heinlein. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 10:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames =20 "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 28 02:25:08 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:25:08 -0500 Subject: eighty-six (86) not an antedating Message-ID: ...but early use to mean something other than being out of an item on a restaurant menu. Proquest,_Washington Post_ 5 April, 1942. Pg. TC1, col. 5 >>"Curious." Chandos pulled the note toward him and glanced through it. "T.K. will be 86.' Is it code?" "No. IT's soda-popper jargon." "Meaning?" "Tell him,Chick." "Eighty-six means out," I said. "'The tuna-fish salad is 86' means there isn't any more. And if you say a guy is 86, that means he's fired or all washed up or something like that." << Sam Clements From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 02:45:50 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:45:50 -0500 Subject: "Peace Sign" (1900); Chocolate Sprinkles & Broadway Flip Sundae Message-ID: PEACE SIGN ProQuest, then AOL have been down for a while. I guess I can't send the photo of this to ADS-L, but it's available by request. An early version of the "peace sign"--probably meaning, as stated before, "let's go swimming"--is in FRECKLES AND TAN by R. C. Bowman, published by Alfred Bartlett, Boston, 1900. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHOCOLATE SPRINKLES & BROADWAY FLIP WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--CUNY Graduate Center, 34th Street and Fifth Avenue. There was a cheese tasting of NYS & Vermont cheeses. Liz from Murray's Cheese on Bleecker was there, as was Margo True, editor of SAVEUR. (The April 2005 SAVEUR is about Cheese.) WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SUNDAY?--Pete's Place (not Pete's Tavern!), 256 Third Avenue and East 21st Street. The perfect place to watch NCAA basketball games that NEVER END! http://www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=426&cat_id=1&city_id=1 Watch TV at the counter if you want to chat with the owners. Lots of specials will really fill you up if you need a square meal inexpensively. --Gramercy Resident On the wall of Pete's Place is the menu of a former store, the Gramercy Sweet Shop. I was told it's from the "1920s," and the presence of "chop suey sundae" and the prices seem to indicate that: BANAN ROYAL...30 BANANA SPLIT...25 ANOLA (?--ed.) SUNDAE...20 NABISCO SUNDAE...20 CHOCOLATE SPRINKLE SUNDAE...20 CHOP SUEY SUNDAE...20 PINEAPPLE TEMPTATION...20 BROADWAY FLIP...20 ICE CREAM SODAS ALL FLAVORS...10 FRENCH ICE CREAM SODA...15 What is a "Broadway flip"? See the article below, but the prices there are 40 cents a serving! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Real Ice Cream Parlor Is Still Thriving in City By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 21, 1965. p. 24 (1 page) : "THose doors" are the entrance to the Becker and Citarella confectionery at 548 West 207th Street. To pass beneath them is to be transported to an ice cream parlor from the ealy years of the century. (...) In the room to the rear are marble-topped tables and a notice on the wall of the frozen specialties of the house. These include Broadway Flip, Lover's Delight, Pineapple Temptation and Marshmallow Sundae, and the cost is about 40 cents a serving. "As far as I know," Chris Becker, one of the owners, said, "this ice cream parlor has been here since the building was built and that was in 1913 or 1914. I first came here when it was called Broger and Lewessen. They owned a lot of ice cream parlors in Manhattan." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 6 February 1923, Hammond (Ind.) Times, pg. 7, col. 8 ad: Savery's Candy Shoppe BROADWAY FLIP SUNDAE 20c ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? I left out these other restaurants of recent visits: AMMA, East 51 Street and Second Avenue--Overpriced Indian. MELTEMI, First Avenue and East 52 Street--Excellent Greek seafoood place. Draws a crowd from the U.N. MOLYVOS, Seventh Avenue and West 55 Street--Good Greek place, but I enjoyed Meltemi much more. I jhad come after another 10-hour parking ticket waste of my life and just missed the pre-theatre special (to 7:30 p.m.), which is what to get here. VON SINGH'S, Eighth Street near 6th Avenue LASSI, Greenwich Street near 6th Avenue--These are two new hole-in-the-wall Indian places. I can't say I'm crazy about either of them, but Lassi (northern Indian) seems a bit more authentic and Indian. Von Singh's seems like a California veggie place, with Americanized names for the food. APPLE RESTAURANT, Waverly Place near Broadway--Probably good for its bar. No reason to eat here with Gobo around. From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 28 03:24:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:24:42 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MW 11 gives 2b. lacking interest or dignity (a ~ task). With the unfortunate loss of servants, at least for my crowd (I can't even afford illegal aliens, grey or brown), most of us have little context for menial referring to such individuals. The word remains, but only the connotative side. I would suggest that this is not a blend, but rather a reinterpretation. Menial = insignificant, not worthy of attention, like servants. JCS sagehen writes: >>>>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>>>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>>>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>>>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >>>FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >>>labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >>>different sorts of scales) >> >>Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", >>thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an >>exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > ~~~~~~~~ > "Minimal" & "measly" come to mind, though "measly" probably not quite the > right tone. > AM > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 04:55:50 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:55:50 -0500 Subject: "Do-rag" - no mention of ADS antedatings Message-ID: William Safire returned to "do-rag" on Sunday. There is no mention of the discussion and antedatings here. So it remains for his readers, I guess, a term that was coined in The New York Times. And so it goes, as it has been for twelve years. No corrections. No apologies. What a son of a bitch! (NEW YORK TIMES) DOING THE DO-RAG RAG My recent definition of do-rag as ''a scrap of material worn atop a hairdo'' has been challenged. A dozen or so readers are certain it should be spelled dew-rag, derived from the headband worn to absorb the perspiration, similar to dew, on the brow of workers in the sun. On the other hand, Anna Grimes Noser of Nashville holds that ''a do-rag is whatever is available to pull your hair out of your face so you can set about cleaning the house, garage, gutters or other messy tasks. To indirectly criticize and simultaneously empathize with someone, many Southerners will quip, 'Bless his heart.' Mr. Safire, bless your heart.'' Michael Parker of the Corcoran Library in Washington, writing ''as a black man growing up in the 50's and 60's,'' observes that ''a do-rag was usually worn by men who had their hair 'processed.' The do-rag kept the 'process' neat until it was time to step out. We usually made fun of men with do-rags. Today I keep my mouth shut!'' Other Lexicographic Irregulars lent support to my speculation about the hyphenated noun's origin. ''Originally, a do-rag protected one's conk (straightened hair) while one slept,'' noted Rebecca Maksel. And at Washington's Gridiron Dinner a couple of weeks ago, as I stood amid a bunch of other moving shakers in white tie and tails, Colin Powell -- proud product, like me, of the Bronx -- agreed that do-rag did derive from ''doing'' one's hair. He even recalled that ''in the days before pantyhose,'' a variation of the do-rag was a stocking pulled down over the head. Ain't etymology grand? From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 28 05:02:14 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:02:14 -0500 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I’m sorry Mr. Shoe, but there is no maturity or maternity benefit for males in MT. We are not sure just what a materity benefit is, but we are checking on it and will get back to you. However, we will remind you that there are lovely mountain views, particularly around Missoula, but don’t tell anybody. We are not quite sure what your respondent meant by “do time.” Generally this means that the person has had a disagreement with local law enforcement, but sometimes it applies to pregnant women, as Ms Flanigan in Ohio suggests. Our friends in Michigan tell us that male retirees often get Honey Do lists from their wives. We are pretty sure that these are not lists of melons. It is quite confusing. We have heard that you are a person who knows about language, that you worked for a school back east, in St Louis or Biloxi or Washington or someplace like that. Awaiting your reply on what “do” means. Yours, Missoula Jim Roger Shuy writes: > on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >> Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --> - >> >> Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: >> >>> >>> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >>> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >>> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >>> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >>> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >>> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >>> this in do time. >>> Delia >> >> Do tell! >> > And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity > leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible > maturity benefits. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 28 07:21:33 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:21:33 -0500 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: <200502081735.1cYGLp3bo3NZFpL0@mx-a065b05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi...long time listener, first time caller. What a splendid list, with a carnivorous email volume teeming with, for once, my verbal betters. I've seen some impassioned unsubscribe notices since I joined and have wondered why? As a strokee ("stroke survivor," "stroker," "brain attackee" - however "stroke victim" is déclassé and passé), I've been pretty much become confined to a 2 by 2 butt-print in front of my Mac. Thus, online is my oyster. A good deal of it I find banal, but every once in a while, I'll stumble across a gem such as ADS. Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be credentialed? Any list that actually allows for the enlightened investigation of the word "fuck", without the attendant "thyself" (or, as dictated by the METALLICA RULZ, a barrage of juvenile epithets) is a cyber sandbox in which I'd like to play. I've tried to read the list awhile before posting to get the "lay of the LAN", but with such a high volume I find it difficult to understand what goes here and what doesn't. Some posts seem very scholarly, others casual, so I am guessing it is fairly ecumenical in that regard, nest ce pas? I look to be enlightened and have some shits 'n' grins. Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 28 09:39:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:39:17 -0500 Subject: eighty-six (86) not an antedating Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:25:08 -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >...but early use to mean something other than being out of an item on a >restaurant menu. > >Proquest,_Washington Post_ 5 April, 1942. Pg. TC1, col. 5 > >>>"Curious." Chandos pulled the note toward him and glanced through it. > "T.K. will be 86.' Is it code?" > "No. IT's soda-popper jargon." > "Meaning?" > "Tell him,Chick." > "Eighty-six means out," I said. "'The tuna-fish salad is 86' means >there isn't any more. And if you say a guy is 86, that means he's fired >or all washed up or something like that." << Here's another early cite... ----- New York Times, Dec 29, 1939, p. 13 The cabalistic mumbo jumbo of soda-fountain workers has always puzzled us, but we never found a fountain man with enough leisure time, or inclination, to discuss it. Last night, though, we were having a malted in the drug store in the Associated Press Building in Rockefeller Center and Mr. Joe Reno, who served us, let us in on some of the secrets. Now (Mr. Reno said) you take water, for example. If one customer wants water, you call "Eighty-one." If you want water for two customers, you call "Eighty-two." The system, however, stops at "Eighty-five." When a soda-stand worker calls "Eighty-six," it is a sign-off; the store is out of whatever you happen to ask for. ----- The "81" and "86" codes also appear in Bentley's "Linguistic Concoctions of the Soda Jerker" (_AmSp_, Feb. 1936), as well as the 1933 Walter Winchell column that Barry Popik discovered in Dec. 2001: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0112E&L=ads-l&P=R609&m=11562 This article has "81" for water but gives "87" for the "all out" code (casting some doubt on the "nix" rhyming-slang theory): ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 9, 1938, p. J2 Have you ever heard the soda clerks shouting numbers to each other? Here are a few which we recently persuaded a nimble-fingered mixer to translate for us: "81" -- water for the customer. "61" -- cup of coffee. "87" -- we've run out of that item on the menu. "37" -- take special pains for this customer. "Watch the pump" -- the girl you're serving has pretty eyes. "Stretch it" -- give this man a big one; he looks hungry. "87 1/2" -- the girl in the corner has pretty legs. ----- (Bentley's 1936 _AmSp_ article has the "87 1/2" code as well.) --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 09:57:11 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:57:11 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A "personal" request was made for this. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Meany; By Joseph C. Goulden. 504 pp. New York: Atheneum. $12.95. By WILSON C. McWILLIAMS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 22, 1972. p. BR2 (1 page): Contemporary feminists have insisted that the "personal is the political." So it is, as the classic political philosphers knew. And conversely, political life always depends on personality. Perhaps, in the abstract, George Meany would agree. J. Edgar's WLM Caper; Letty Cottin Pogrebin is a writer and an editor at Ms. Magazine who has so far received two pages from her FBI file. Letty Cottin Pogrebin. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1977. p. A17 (1 page) : The FBI never understood the feminist tenet that "the personal is political." The Emergence of Women From the Movement-Ridden '60's; Book World PERSONAL POLITICS: The Roots of Women's Liberation in the Civil Rights Movement and the New Left. By Sara Evans (Knopf. 274 pp. $10) Reviewed by Anne Laurent. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 22, 1979. p. C4 (1 page): Her book, "Personal Politics" after the women's liberation slogan "the personal is political," is an investigation into "the roots of women's liberation in the civil rights movement and the new left." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Herald Saturday, July 16, 1977 Chicago, Illinois ...Yet Mor- and others in believe the PERSONAL IS POLITICAL and must beshared.....Reviewed by Nancy 1 Reese Subtitled PERSONAL Chronicle of a Robin Morgan's.. (Review of GOING TOO FAR by Robin Morgan--ed.) Pg. 54?, col. 2: Yet Morgan, and others in the women's movement, believe the personal is political and must be shared. (JSTOR) Review: [untitled review] Author(s) of Review: Siew Hwa Beh Reviewed Work(s): The Woman's Film by Judy Smith; Louise Alaimo; Ellen Sorrin Film Quarterly > Vol. 25, No. 1 (Autumn, 1971), pp. 48-49 Pg. 49: The film (THE WOMEN'S FILM - ed.) shows that personal experience leads to political action as these working-class women come to realize that the personal is political and the goal is political power. (JSTOR) Political Science Kay Boals Signs > Vol. 1, No. 1 (Autumn, 1975), pp. 161-174 Pg. 172: A further sense of the direction in which it may be desirable to move in reconceptualizing the nature and scope of politics is provided by the idea, prominent within the feminist movement, that "the personal is the political," that is, that the problems individuals encounter are not the result of unique personal weakness, but rather are caused by the structure of societal institutions, and in particular by the sex-role system. Review: [untitled review] Author(s) of Review: Walter L. Goldfrank Reviewed Work(s): Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made. by Eugene D. Genovese Contemporary Sociology > Vol. 4, No. 6 (Nov., 1975), pp. 619-624 Pg. 623: Contemporary sociologists have begun to recognize the pervasiveness of power and domination in ordinary institutional life ("the personal is political"). (PROQUEST) Publication title:Off Our Backs. Washington: Jun 30, 1975. Vol. 5, Iss. 5; pg. 7 NEW YORK -- The longtime radical feminists of Redstockings (founded in early 1969, disbanded in late 1970 and recreated in 1973,) held a press conference on May 9 at the Media Women's Conference, which was presented at the same time as the MORE journalism convention. At the press conference, Redstockings presented a sixteen-page document alleging that Gloria Steinem had worked for the CIA for at least ten years (1959-69) and that Ms. magazine is not an authentic part of the liberal feminist movement, but is hurting the movement. The Redstockings women, who originated consciousness-raising and coined such slogans as "sisterhood is powerful" and "the personal is political", say that they have studied Steinem and Ms. for a year. They say that Steinem not only worked for a CIA-funded group, the Independent Research Service, (a group that they say Ramparts exposed in 1967), from 1959-62, but also continued on its Board of Directors in 1968-69, after the Ramparts exposure. This directorship was mentioned in her first listing in Who's Who in America, but in all later editions of Who's Who her period of employment is reduced from three years (1959-62) to one year (1959-60) and the later directorship is never mentioned again. Redstockings say this is typical of the media's coverage of Steinem; they say the media installed her as a "leader" of the women's movement and covered her past activities. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 28 10:12:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:12:27 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) Message-ID: >From a discussion on WMST-L, the women's studies teaching listserv: ----- http://research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/pisp.html Carol Hanisch has a brief essay called "The Personal is Political" in the Redstockings collection *Feminist Revolution* -- her essay is dated March 1969 (204-205). The essay defends consciousness-raising against the charge that it is "therapy." Hanisch states "One of the first things we discover in these groups is that personal problems are political problems. There are no personal solutions at this time." ----- --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 11:23:37 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:23:37 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) In-Reply-To: <8C70193A527961E-C94-3CFE3@mblk-r22.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A "personal" request was made for this. The coinage was an article by Carol Hanisch, entitled "The Personal Is Political," published in _Notes from the Second Year_ in 1969. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 15:21:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:21:04 -0800 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something creative to impress us ? I've heard of "shittin' and grinnin'," natch. JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Hola ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi...long time listener, first time caller. What a splendid list, with a carnivorous email volume teeming with, for once, my verbal betters. I've seen some impassioned unsubscribe notices since I joined and have wondered why? As a strokee ("stroke survivor," "stroker," "brain attackee" - however "stroke victim" is d�class� and pass�), I've been pretty much become confined to a 2 by 2 butt-print in front of my Mac. Thus, online is my oyster. A good deal of it I find banal, but every once in a while, I'll stumble across a gem such as ADS. Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be credentialed? Any list that actually allows for the enlightened investigation of the word "fuck", without the attendant "thyself" (or, as dictated by the METALLICA RULZ, a barrage of juvenile epithets) is a cyber sandbox in which I'd like to play. I've tried to read the list awhile before posting to get the "lay of the LAN", but with such a high volume I find it difficult to understand what goes here and what doesn't. Some posts seem very scholarly, others casual, so I am guessing it is fairly ecumenical in that regard, nest ce pas? I look to be enlightened and have some shits 'n' grins. Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 28 15:25:44 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:25:44 -0600 Subject: Hola Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 9:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Hola > > Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just > something creative to impress us ? > > I've heard of "shittin' and grinnin'," natch. > > JL During the 1980 Republican National Convention, the Democratic opposition was Jimmy Carter (aka "Grits") and Walter Mondale (aka "Fritz"). I clearly remember seeing a sign being carried around on the convention floor, saying "Fritz and Grits give me the shits". It was the first time I had been exposed to that scatalogical term over broadcast TV. > "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" > Subject: Hola > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Hi...long time listener, first time caller. > > Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be > credentialed? Rex -- I'm not credentialed by any stretch, and they treat me nice -- probably better than I deserve. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Mar 28 17:58:29 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:58:29 -0800 Subject: documentate!! Message-ID: I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of the ethnic connotation. Fritz >>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 18:06:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:06:29 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >the ethnic connotation. >Fritz Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to have heard that claim at some point. Larry > >>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>>From a lurker in Baltimore: > >Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? > >I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. > >Or perhaps they're actually words??? > >Christine Gray > > >> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) > >Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >the sense of "sweet-talk" v. > >-Wilson Gray > >> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >> even >> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >> are >> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> From rshuy at MONTANA.COM Mon Mar 28 17:23:37 2005 From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:23:37 -0600 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281755.j2SHtkWD032720@mistersix.montana.com> Message-ID: on 3/28/05 12:06 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >> do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >> the ethnic connotation. >> Fritz > > Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to > have heard that claim at some point. > > Larry > >> >>>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>> From a lurker in Baltimore: >> >> Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? >> >> I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. >> >> Or perhaps they're actually words??? >> >> Christine Gray >> >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >> Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >> the sense of "sweet-talk" v. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >>> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >>> even >>> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >>> are >>> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >>> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> > I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in which the copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" should be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." Obviously I'm objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the -ate movement is going these days. Roger Shuy From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 28 18:32:51 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:32:51 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 9:23 AM, Roger Shuy wrote: > ...I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in > which the > copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" > should > be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." > Obviously I'm > objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the > -ate > movement is going these days. sometime you ate the bear, sometimes the bear ate you. arnold From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Mar 28 18:32:26 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:32:26 +0100 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to > have heard that claim at some point. That's so. It's the standard form for me, to the extent that "orient" sounds a little odd. On the matter of eggcorns, a subscriber wrote today to say, "Over the past week leading up to Easter, I've seen three separate instances of the word 'crucifiction.'" He wondered whether this showed a sceptical attitude to religion or was a mistake. My money's on the latter. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 28 19:11:16 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:11:16 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050327215525.84021.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >subway for a long time afterwards. That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other SF and math-related great things. I should find that again. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 28 19:17:05 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050328191116.GA6956@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it > >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, > >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the > >subway for a long time afterwards. > > That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia > Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other > SF and math-related great things. I should find that > again. This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked House," referenced in a later post. JTS From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 28 19:03:31 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:03:31 -0600 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in which the >copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" should >be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." Obviously I'm >objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the -ate >movement is going these days. > >Roger Shuy Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? Barbara From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 28 20:11:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:11:46 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. -Wilson Gray On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>> Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >>> in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >>> greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >>> subway for a long time afterwards. >> >> That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia >> Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other >> SF and math-related great things. I should find that >> again. > > This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked > House," referenced in a later post. > > JTS > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 28 20:20:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:20:08 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >> which the >> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >> should >> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >> Obviously I'm >> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >> -ate >> movement is going these days. >> >> Roger Shuy > > Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? > > Barbara > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments in which we would-never-use one. -Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 20:38:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <0b57c18a2400b4e6a4fe95df46db7a22@rcn.com> Message-ID: >As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had >occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story >had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the >subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston >while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also >wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts >of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I >expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random >people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. > >-Wilson Gray Maybe there was a wine-tasting they were all attending? (For some reason, I always have had this strong UC Davis/oenology association working for me.) Larry From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 21:05:51 2005 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:05:51 EST Subject: twat Message-ID: I had a very good friend from North Carolina, in the early 1970s, who used "twat" to refer to a female backside. This especially when that backside was one that made itself noticeable. Lois Nathan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 21:51:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:51:55 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've seen "orientate" in Standard English contexts so many times in UK English written by Ph.D.'s that I don't even notice it any more. JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of the ethnic connotation. Fritz >>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 21:57:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:57:41 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I can't remember the anthology, Jesse, except that it was published by Doubleday around 1959. "Fantastica Mathematica" sounds very much like something I need to look into. Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or something ? Anyone who hasn't read "Flatland" must do so soonest. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >subway for a long time afterwards. That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other SF and math-related great things. I should find that again. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 22:00:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:00:38 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What are the chances, Wilson ? If, as Einstain said, "God doesn't play dice," He certainly plays Bingo ! (Note to pointyheads: Yeah, I know quantum theory shows that he probably plays dice too - and Monopoly.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. -Wilson Gray On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>> Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >>> in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >>> greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >>> subway for a long time afterwards. >> >> That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia >> Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other >> SF and math-related great things. I should find that >> again. > > This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked > House," referenced in a later post. > > JTS > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 22:10:12 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:10:12 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly ancient.) Especially pernicious are hyphens within multipart verbs, e.g. "I thought I'd freak-out" or "Time to hit-the-sack." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >> which the >> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >> should >> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >> Obviously I'm >> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >> -ate >> movement is going these days. >> >> Roger Shuy > > Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? > > Barbara > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments in which we would-never-use one. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 28 23:54:40 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:54:40 -0500 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: <200503280721.1dfW386rB3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 7:21 AM -0800 3/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something >creative to impress us ? Um, far be it from me to even dare to impress this fast lexical crowd. My coinages are generally really awful puns and as I've been currently reading the at once entertaining and mildly pedantic "Predicting New Words" by Allan Metcalf (Houghton Mifflin), I'm told that MY style of neologizing is destined for utter failure. Sigh.... But, more to the point.... "shits & grins" has been in use, at least in rural Indiana for as long as I could count. My grandfolks used it (well, the cool grandfolks, the ones not stuck on Puritanical mouth worship) and I've heard enough other non-kin use it to know it wasn't just a family custom. It is somewhat derivative or precedential to "shits & giggles", I know not which. Google the expression & you'll find a few hundred citations. In fact, this from a BBS call Wordorigins Org (no dot): "I'm more familiar with the phrase "shits and grins" and have been using it for decades. My son taught me "shits and giggles" when he was in college a bit over ten years ago." I'm a shittin' & I'm a grinnin' (apologies to Roy Clark & Buck Owens) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 29 00:31:53 2005 From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:31:53 +0000 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 01:00:25 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:00:25 -0500 Subject: orientate (was documentate) Message-ID: orientate is indeed old--MW11 (1848). Earlier hits in NewspaperArchive.com are misses. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 28, 2005 at 1:06 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: documentate!! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >>do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >>the ethnic connotation. >>Fritz > >Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to >have heard that claim at some point. > >Larry > >> >>>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>>>From a lurker in Baltimore: >> >>Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? >> >>I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. >> >>Or perhaps they're actually words??? >> >>Christine Gray >> >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >>Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >>the sense of "sweet-talk" v. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >>> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >>> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >>> even >>> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >>> are >>> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >>> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 01:46:58 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:46:58 -0500 Subject: solicitate (was documentate) Message-ID: solicitate (1921) In an advertisement for a bank in the Wichita Fails Daily Times (5/20/21): "Why we solicitate your business ..." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 02:18:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:18:19 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly > ancient.) > > Especially pernicious are hyphens within multipart verbs, e.g. "I > thought I'd freak-out" or "Time to hit-the-sack." > > JL > Speaking of hitting the fart sack, don't forget to log-off before you do, Jon. -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Barbara Need >> Subject: Re: documentate!! >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >>> which the >>> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >>> should >>> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >>> Obviously I'm >>> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >>> -ate >>> movement is going these days. >>> >>> Roger Shuy >> >> Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? >> >> Barbara >> > > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is > going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments > in which we would-never-use one. > > -Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 02:55:51 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:55:51 -0500 Subject: solicitate (was documentate) Message-ID: Silly me. I should have looked in OED first. Solicitate: 1. to manage or conduct (1547) 2. to excite, stir up, or stimulate (1568) 3. to request, entreat, beseech (1563) 4. to take action, make application (1572) The entry is labelled "obs." Perhaps not anymore. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 28, 2005 at 8:46 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: solicitate (was documentate) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >solicitate (1921) > >In an advertisement for a bank in the Wichita Fails Daily Times (5/20/21): > >"Why we solicitate your business ..." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 02:58:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:58:25 -0500 Subject: documentate!! Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:10:12 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly >ancient.) Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections can probably beat that. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me too." ----- --Ben Zimmer From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Mar 29 03:02:16 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:02:16 -0600 Subject: Hola Message-ID: I've also been hearing and using it for a long time (grew up in central Ill. but been in the Army for a long time). (And, with no particular linguistic credentials, I've been making the periodic contribution for about two years with no particular flames - it's a pretty flame free list.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex W. Stocklin" At 7:21 AM -0800 3/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something >creative to impress us ? But, more to the point.... "shits & grins" has been in use, at least in rural Indiana for as long as I could count. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 03:09:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: recent examples of solicitated Message-ID: Found in five returns on four sites from Google News: NDTV.com (India) News Today (India) TVShowOnDVD.com (Canada) Press Trust of India Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 03:16:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:16:22 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Try looking in Google for "Just because my hair is curly" and "Just because my teeth is/are pearly." There appears to be a lack of agreement as to which of these is the correct first line. Looking under various combinations of "shine" and "frankie laine" and "lyrics" doesn't yield much useful info. -Wilson Gray On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 29 03:37:43 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:37:43 -0500 Subject: Iron Pipeline Message-ID: IRON PIPELINE + GUNS--247 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits "Iron pipeline" is not in the Historical Dictionary of American Slang and not in the Cassell Dictionary of Slang. I'll add it to my website. 28 March 2005, AM NEW YORK, pg. 1, cols. 2-4 headline: _THE GUN RUN_ _New York's Finest struggle_ _to shut down I-95's "Iron Pipeline"_ (...) The highway is dubbed the "Iron Pipeline bacuse thousands of guns purchased in Georgia, Virginia, Florida and North and South Carolina travel up the coastline on that road and wind up being used in crimes in New York. (GOOGLE GROUPS) "Intellectual Argument for Gun Control " ... area knows, I-55 and I-57 serve not only as Dick Durbin's alleged "iron pipeline," but also ... Such is much more plausible than some evil "gun running" conspiracy ... talk.politics.guns - Aug 17 1997, 10:30 am by Bang - 2505 messages - 273 authors What's the GunRunning State THIS Week? ... Expy., it can also be considered a Firearms Freeway or the Iron Pipeline,'' Blagojevich said ... down to states where the laws are lax.'' Of the 4,539 guns used in ... talk.politics.guns - Jul 14 1997, 3:24 am by HerrGlock - 4 messages - 4 authors 1997CRH4920C URGING SUPPORT FOR RESTRICTIONS ON GUN TRAFFICKERS ... It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, ``Have gun, will travel.'' We can take steps to shut the valve on the iron pipeline and on other interstate ... gov.us.fed.congress.record.house - Jul 10 1997, 10:10 am by n... at house.gov - 1 message - 1 author (FACTIVA) NATIONAL NEWS Guns bought in Georgia arm Northern criminals Bill Montgomery STAFF WRITER 1,519 words 11 October 1993 Atlanta Constitution A/1 Because of Georgia's lax gun-control laws, guns bought here are involved in an ever-increasing number of crimes in major Northern cities. They are not, for the most part, stolen guns. They are legally purchased and sent up Interstate 95's "Iron Pipeline" to cities where gun- control laws are generally tighter. (FACTIVA) LOCAL NEWS 3 men charged with running guns to N.Y. R. Robin McDonald STAFF WRITER 227 words 17 December 1993 Atlanta Constitution F/2 A two-year investigation by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI culminated this week with the indictments of two Atlanta men and one former resident on charges of running guns from Atlanta to New York. The indictments, issued by a federal grand jury in Atlanta Wednesday, charge Jibri Abdur Rahman, 39, and Amin Abdur Karim, 33, with using their Atlanta business, the Al-Fajr Trading Co., to purchase guns that were later shipped to New York and illegally sold, the U.S. attorney's office in Atlanta said Thursday. The indictments say Rahman and Karim bought more than 900 handguns and assault weapons between 1989 and 1991 and shipped them to an unlicensed gun dealer in New York. In a separate indictment, former Atlanta resident Gregory Andrew, now of West Palm Beach, Fla., was charged with illegally shipping firearms by Federal Express from Georgia to New York, federal authorities said. The indictments are part of an ongoing effort by the ATF to stem the illegal flow of guns along Interstate 95, dubbed "the Iron Pipeline," between Atlanta and Northern cities such as New York, where laws regulating gun sales are far more strict, said Thomas Stokes, special agent in charge of the ATF's Atlanta office. (FACTIVA) NEWS DAILY NEWS SPECIAL REPORT GEORGIA'S GUNS 0N N.Y.'S MIND Probers link attacks to flood of pistols from South PATRICE O'SHAUGHNESSY DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER 897 words 16 May 2000 New York Daily News SPORTS FINAL 7 The city's illegal gun market is booming, and authorities blame an "iron pipeline" from northwestern Georgia that enabled just one group of gunrunners to bring as many as 100 weapons here. (FACTIVA) News Student gunrunning is growing problem for N.Y. PATRICE O'SHAUGHNESSY New York Daily News 876 words 20 October 2002 The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Early 23A (...) 'Iron pipeline' Georgia, which does not restrict the number of firearms in a single purchase, has been dubbed "the iron pipeline" because so many guns flow from there. David Fields, a supervisory agent for the bureau in Atlanta, said it's been a perennial problem -- students in Georgia fueling the black market for weapons in their hometowns. "But if you're from a market area like New York, the temptation is greater," Fields said. "We're seeing more of them more frequently now." (FACTIVA) Editorial Desk; Section A Shutting Down the 'Iron Pipeline' 397 words 8 May 2003 The New York Times Page 36, Column 1 In a Brooklyn courtroom last month, a Columbia University professor delivered a lesson in why existing gun laws do not work. The professor, Dr. Howard Andrews, testified that 90 percent of the guns recovered in New York crime investigations from 1996 to 2000 had been bought out of state. A large number came from five states with lax gun laws: Virginia, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina. The suit in which Dr. Andrews testified, in which a ruling is expected shortly, charges gun manufacturers and dealers with doing too little to stop illegal handgun sales. His data give the fullest picture yet of the ''iron pipeline,'' in which guns are transported from Southern states. The iron pipeline is one of the biggest factors in thwarting New York in its efforts to keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of criminals. There are ways to stop the flow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--Old Town Bar, 45 East 18th Street. Not too crowded on a Monday. (GOOGLE) Old Town Bar & Restaurant in Flatiron/Gramercy/Union Square in New ... ... up to Old Town's mahogany bar since 1892. Map it Hours Daily, 11:30am-1am Subway Stops L, N, R, 4, 5, 6 to 14th St. The Scene After Work Bar Food Classic NY ... www.newyorkmetro.com/pages/details/4017.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 03:50:43 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:50:43 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1910 version of "Shine" > > VERSE > When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > But I don't care a bit. > Here's how I figure it: > > CHORUS > > Well, just because my hair is curly, > And just because my teeth is pearly, > Just because I always wears a smile, > Likes to dress up in the latest style. > Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > Just because my color's shady, > Slightly different, maybe. > That is why they call me shine. On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 29 04:27:23 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:27:23 -0500 Subject: "Best way to secure freedom is to practice it" (Bill Buckley) Message-ID: 28 March 2005, New York Sun, "Free Speech At Columbia Hits the Wall" by William F. Buckley, Jr., pg. 9, col. 1: The aphorism is that the best way to secure freedom is to practice it. A counter-aphorism would be that the best way to secure freedom is to acknowledge its limitations. (JSTOR) The Retreat from Heresy Frederick C. Neff The Scientific Monthly > Vol. 78, No. 1 (Jan., 1954), pp. 19-29 Pg.25: And the pragmatic fact that the only way to learn freedom is to practice it precludes any need--or possibility--of indoctrinating it. (GOOGLE) Welcome to uExpress featuring On the Right -- The Best Advice and ... ... the rise of rape off screen. The aphorism is that the best way to secure freedom is to practice it. A counter-aphorism would be ... www.uexpress.com/ontheright/ - 35k - Mar 27, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages Oliver Brown - Politics and Advice to Politicians ... There is nothing so painful as to hear a good cause discredited by spokesmen unworthy of it. The best way to defend freedom is to practise it. ... www.electricscotland.com/ history/oliverbrown/politics.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages The Randi Rhodes Show > Why Not "Isolationism" ... The best way to defend freedom is to practice it. The best way to spread freedom is to lead by example and to encourage with pen, not sword, those who want it. ... www.therandirhodesshow.com/randirhodes/ messageboards/lofiversion/index.php?t38789.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Teach-In ... it is important for the Morgan community to come together and talk about it." He says that the best way to defend American freedom is to practice it in the ... www.msuspokesman.com/main.cfm/ include/detail/storyid/154049.html - 39k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages TheFiringLine Forums - So do we agree here or not? ... wonderful posts here. Most of you have grasped the concept that the easiest way to insure freedom is to practice it every day. Many of ... www.thefiringline.com/forums/ archive/index.php/t-32717.html - 27k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 04:52:54 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:52:54 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281006.1dfYDe7mw3NZFpK0@mx-a065b01.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0500 3/28/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem >to have heard that claim at some point. > >Larry Yo, my wife is a focus group research analyst and , well, you just wouldn't believe the strains on the Mother Tongue that are dished in these confabs. One was "orientated." After the umpteenth time, we asked some fairly educated friends of ours if they knew of its existence since it didn't quite ring true. And it wasn't in our household American Heritage Dictionary. One friend, a Brit, reported back that, indeed, it is in use across the pond. Since my wife submits her reports to CEOs and other self-important suits, she wanted to see documentation and, thus, sought out the OED. And sure and begorrah, if it wasn't right there. Occidentally yours, Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 04:55:13 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:55:13 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281858.1dg6W26F83NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:58 PM -0500 3/28/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections >can probably beat that. > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 >Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, >and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me >too." >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer Ahem, I think I can tie this whole thread together. Wasn't there a song?...ahem...."Me three kings of orientate are" - P'raps an utterance of the bard?, P'raps not. ;-) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 05:32:51 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:32:51 -0500 Subject: Fort Wood (was: Re: Hola) In-Reply-To: <200503281900.1dg6Yl3I73NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:02 PM -0600 3/28/05, Dave Hause wrote: >I've also been hearing and using it for a long time (grew up in >central Ill. but been in the Army for a long time). (And, with no >particular linguistic credentials, I've been making the periodic >contribution for about two years with no particular flames - it's a >pretty flame free list.) Thanx Dave, for the heads up, but I've been known to test the UL-approved limits. Lord knows why, I try to play nice. Guess cuz I am a smartass. ;-) > >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO Fort Wood, huh, I've got a question for ya. How long have you bivouacked there? Reason I axe is because on our many junkets hither and yon thru central MO, we've found respite in Rolla at this lovely dive called Papa Meaux's (perhaps THE best Creole/Cajun vittles slung outside of N'awlins). I wondered if you've heard of it and wondered whatever became of Papa Meaux. We drove through about two years ago and the place was no longer there, after being a fixture for years. Just down Kings Highway from the Sirloin Stockade or some such place. I'd be forever in your debt or....I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a Po'Boy today.... Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Mar 29 08:57:31 2005 From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:57:31 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or > something ? > JL Jonathan, Maybe one or more of the following is what you had in mind? "Sphereland", Dionys Burger; "The Planiverse", Kee Dewdney; and, "Flatterland (like flatland, only more so)", Ian Stewart, (2001), Perseus Publishing. HTH, Bruce Hunter From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Mar 29 09:17:06 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:17:06 +0100 Subject: Pollyanna Message-ID: As you will have gathered, WWWords subscribers are a regular source of questions I can't answer. To judge from online comments, this one seems to puzzle a lot of people. Why, particularly in Pennsylvania, is a type of gift exchange by drawing lots - another name for which, I have just learned, is "secret Santa" - called a Pollyanna (in full, "Pollyanna gift exchange")? Could it possibly be derived from Eleanor Hodgman Porter's character? The earliest example I've found on newspaperarchive.com, which for once is a Coshocton Tribune citation that's correctly dated, is: 1947 Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio) 16 Dec. 9/2 Ladies Aid Society of Nashville Church of Christ, all-day meeting Thursday at home of Mrs. Carl Drake at Loudonville; covered dish dinner at noon; Christmas gift exchange for members and a pollyanna gift exchange. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 11:51:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:51:53 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Me three kings of orientate are." This sentence will not be grammatical for at least another five years. JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:58 PM -0500 3/28/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections >can probably beat that. > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 >Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, >and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me >too." >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer Ahem, I think I can tie this whole thread together. Wasn't there a song?...ahem...."Me three kings of orientate are" - P'raps an utterance of the bard?, P'raps not. ;-) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 11:54:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:54:51 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Sphereland" is it, but the others sound interesting as well. JL Bruce Hunter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bruce Hunter Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or > something ? > JL Jonathan, Maybe one or more of the following is what you had in mind? "Sphereland", Dionys Burger; "The Planiverse", Kee Dewdney; and, "Flatterland (like flatland, only more so)", Ian Stewart, (2001), Perseus Publishing. HTH, Bruce Hunter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Mar 29 16:27:48 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:27:48 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may well be, Michael, that your subscriber from Poland is asking about that precise spelling of Great Googily Moogily because the Beast in the preschooler cartoon Maggie and the Ferocious Beast (on Noggin--see http://www.noggin.com/shows/maggie.php) says "Great Googily Moogily!" as his catchphrase. Yeah, you're laughing, but why would someone from Poland come up with that all of a sudden? Does your subscriber have access to international children's TV programming? Or perhaps that person's got a child of school age who's got friends who've spent time in the US? Catch phrases spread like wildfire among children, and I've noticed that there are a lot of Polish names in the credits for some of these animated series, which may mean that the Nickelodeon/Noggin producers are outsourcing some of the animation work. Yes, I've got a toddler. Wendalyn Nichols >At 9:56 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>Poster: "Baker, John" >>>Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >>>which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >>>best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >>>discussion of the term at >>>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >>> >>>John Baker From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 18:58:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:58:25 -0800 Subject: noviciate Message-ID: Hypercorrectional orthography : 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure knight's quest." "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 19:30:07 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:30:07 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <200503241844.1deEOJ3Ck3NZFpB0@mx-a065a10.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:44 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, >in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll >have to check my collection. Ah, the Spaniels! Now that the gloved one has been skewered, Ja-Net has been uncovered and the rest of the Jackson clan, well, have become has-beens, mayhap the erstwhile pride of Gary, IN, Professor Harold Hill notwithstanding. But I was unable to recall that lyric in any of their tuneage, thus I googled the juxtaposition and netted nada. Perhaps I should have used Moogle? ;-) "Goodnight, Jacko, Goodnight" Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 19:45:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:45:08 -0800 Subject: "and +[verb]ing" as subordinator Message-ID: OK, this is probably just bad copy-editing, but what the heck.... 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky. ) 25 "Even Jefferson Davis, the worn-out and humiliated ex-president of the Confederacy and going to federal prison in 1865, was described by Southerners as King Arthur being spirited to Avalon." Now if this passage were a representation of Anglo-Hibernian dialect, perhaps the disconnect could be explained as an inadvertent deletion of "he" : *...and he goin' to federal prison... But it isn't. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 19:49:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:49:52 -0800 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: This collegial message, hot off the screen, is a splendid ex. of a proof-reading problem that far-future linguists may find overly fascinating : "If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on campus, I'll try to be in my office." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 29 19:51:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:59 -0500 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker Message-ID: SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/217802_grammar28.asp A Word to the unwise -- program's grammar check isn't so smart Monday, March 28, 2005 By TODD BISHOP SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Microsoft the company should big improve Word grammar check. No, your eyes aren't deceiving you. That sentence is a confusing jumble. However, it is perfectly fine in the assessment of Microsoft Word's built-in grammar checker, which detects no problem with the prose. Sandeep Krishnamurthy thinks Microsoft can do a lot better. The University of Washington associate professor has embarked on a one-man mission to persuade the Redmond company to improve the grammar-checking function in its popular word-processing program. Krishnamurthy is also trying to raise public awareness of the issue. "If you're a grad student turning in your term paper, and you think grammar check has completely checked your paper, I have news for you -- it really hasn't," he said. Microsoft says it has been making continuous improvements in the grammar-checking tool, and the company notes that the issue is more complex than it might seem. Experts in natural-language processing say the broader issue reflects a deep technological challenge beyond the current capabilities of computer science. "It is tremendously difficult," said Karen Jensen, a retired Microsoft researcher who led the company's Natural Language Processing research group as it developed the underlying technology for the grammar checker, which debuted in 1997. "It gives you all kinds of respect for a human being's native ability to learn and understand in natural language." But Krishnamurthy, a professor of marketing and e-commerce at the UW's Bothell campus, isn't convinced that the software giant is doing everything it can -- and he supports his point with eye-catching examples. He has crafted and posted for public download several documents containing awful grammar. Depending on the version and settings, the Word grammar checker sometimes detects a few of the problems. But it overlooks the majority of them -- skipping misplaced apostrophes, singular-plural inconsistencies, missing articles, sentence fragments, improper capitalization and other problems. An excerpt from one of his documents: "Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying? It is no wondering that advertisings are bad for company in America, Chicago and Germany. ... McDonald's and Coca Cola are good brand. ... Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft." With examples like that passing through unflagged, Krishnamurthy questions whether Microsoft should even offer the grammar-checking feature in its existing state. "If you're including a feature in a widely used program like Microsoft Word, it's got to pick up more things than it currently does," he said. "I agree, the English language is very complicated, but I think we should expect more from grammar check." By comparison, the grammar checker in Corel Corp.'s WordPerfect Office 12 catches many of the errors in Krishnamurthy's test documents that aren't detected by the Microsoft Word 2003 grammar checker, even set at the highest sensitivity to errors. In fact, there is room for Microsoft to make incremental improvements in Word's grammar checker, said Christopher Manning, assistant professor of linguistics and computer science at Stanford University. For example, he said, the Word grammar checker could benefit from greater use of advanced probabilistic and statistical methods to analyze sentences and flag problems. Microsoft has applied some of that more advanced research to competitive and high-profile areas such as Web search and spam detection. Microsoft says the grammar-checker does use probabilistic techniques in addition to more basic, rules-based methods. But with further use of advanced approaches, it appears possible for Word's grammar checker to improve, Manning said. However, he said, "It still wouldn't be as good as a good human editor." Microsoft calls that the fundamental issue. Responding to an inquiry about Krishnamurthy's examples, the Microsoft Office group said in a statement that the grammar checker "was created to be a guide and a tool, not a perfect proofreader." Microsoft also makes that point in Word's product documentation. The statement added, "It is possible to list a number of sentences that you would expect the Word grammar checker to catch that it doesn't. But that doesn't represent real-world usage. The Word grammar checker is designed to catch the kinds of errors that ordinary users make in normal writing situations." It would be possible to "dial up the sensitivity" of the Word grammar checker to catch more errors, the company said. However, that could also cause it to flag sentences considered correct in colloquial usage. That would risk making the tool more intrusive than people want, the company said. In fact, Microsoft dialed down the sensitivity of the grammar checker in certain respects starting in 2002, responding to customer feedback. For example, some people objected when the tool flagged sentences of more than 40 words as "perhaps excessively complex." Krishnamurthy said he considers the company's view too simplistic. He suggested that Microsoft further increase the available settings, beyond the current options, to let people essentially "pick the level of intrusion." He also said the company should offer an add-on for people who need extra help, such as students for whom English is a second language. As it now stands, the tool helps good writers but "really doesn't help bad writers at all," he said. Krishnamurthy, 37, grew up in Hyderabad, India. A textbook author and a frequent contributor to scholarly journals, he is passionate about writing and the English language. But how did a marketing and e-commerce professor become a grammar-checking crusader? While always stressing the importance of writing well in the first place, Krishnamurthy would also routinely tell his students to run the Word spelling and grammar checks as a precaution before turning in their papers. Then, last year, one student turned in a badly written report. "The least you could have done is run spell-check and grammar-check," Krishnamurthy said. "But I did!" the student said. That prompted the professor to investigate, and he began discovering blind spots in the Word grammar-checking tool. Krishnamurthy ultimately decided to assemble specific examples of bad grammar that made it through undetected. He began circulating them last week via e-mail to friends, colleagues and Seattle-area media. He also created a Web page for the purpose: http://faculty.washington.edu/sandeep/check. The professor is careful to point out that he's not out to bash Microsoft. But he says the company is spending too much energy on extraneous capabilities, while neglecting core features such as the grammar checker. Among other things, Microsoft is trying to expand the market for Microsoft Office by adding a series of related server-based programs. Office and related software make up Microsoft's second-most profitable division, bringing in more than $7.1 billion in operating profit in the last fiscal year. The core Office programs dominate the market. Despite the lack of intense competition, there is a business incentive for Microsoft to invest in core features, said analyst Rob Helm, research director at Kirkland-based research firm Directions on Microsoft. That's because one of the company's biggest challenges is persuading customers to upgrade from older versions of its own programs. By making improvements to features such as the grammar and spelling checkers, Microsoft "can give people an additional incentive" to shift to the newer version, Helm said. Jensen, the retired Microsoft researcher who worked on the original grammar-checking technology, said major advances would involve making computers understand sentences in ways that humans would. As an example, she cited one of the sentences used in Krishnamurthy's sample documents: "Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft." Only by knowing that "Gates" probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence -- would the program know to suggest using "does" instead. "It's this level of understanding that you just can't expect a computer to have at this point," Jensen said. "Someday, of course, it would be great, but we're not there yet." In the meantime, Krishnamurthy is spreading the message. He doesn't suggest that anyone stop using the grammar-checking tool, but he wants people to fully understand its limitations and not consider it a substitute for good writing and editing. In one part of his Web site, he has posted a cautionary list of "top writing mistakes" made by his students. No. 11: "Assuming that Microsoft Word's spelling and grammar check will solve all writing problems." ___________________________________ On the Net: faculty.washington.edu/sandeep/check P-I reporter Todd Bishop can be reached at 206-448-8221or toddbishop at seattlepi.com P-I senior online producer Brian Chin contributed to this report. � 1998-2005 Seattle Post-Intelligencer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 29 19:55:18 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:55:18 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: <20050329185825.78084.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an entry of its own there.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hypercorrectional orthography : > > 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 > "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure > knight's quest." > > "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 20:06:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:06:07 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as in its primary citation). And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 years. But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: noviciate ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an entry of its own there.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hypercorrectional orthography : > > 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 > "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure > knight's quest." > > "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From dcamp at CHILITECH.NET Tue Mar 29 20:00:25 2005 From: dcamp at CHILITECH.NET (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:00:25 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: -------Original Message------- >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on campus, I'll try to be in my >office." ++++++++++++++++++++++ I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had things like that make it into print. It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. D From langwidge at EROLS.COM Tue Mar 29 21:53:10 2005 From: langwidge at EROLS.COM (crg) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:10 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frank Zappa says "great googly moogly" in his album _Apostrophe_. I think it's in the space between "St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast" and "Father O'Blivion." Christine Gray At 9:44 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, >in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll >have to check my collection. Ah, the Spaniels! Now that the gloved one has been skewered, Ja-Net has been uncovered and the rest of the Jackson clan, well, have become has-beens, mayhap the erstwhile pride of Gary, IN, Professor Harold Hill notwithstanding. But I was unable to recall that lyric in any of their tuneage, thus I googled the juxtaposition and netted nada. Perhaps I should have used Moogle? ;-) "Goodnight, Jacko, Goodnight" Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 22:17:05 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:17:05 -0500 Subject: jargonese (1957) Message-ID: Edward Clark’s [Kingston College] translation of “peasantry” as “those who by socio-economic standards are graded as belonging to the stratum of the community depending on pastroro-agricultural pursuits for a livelihood” is, in my opinion, first-class jargonese. Thomas Wright, “Get It Straight,” The Daily Gleaner [Kingston, Jamaica], March 2, 1957, p 6 American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 at 3:06 PM -0500 wrote: > >That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >entry of its own there.) > >Grant Barrett From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 22:23:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:23:05 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:10 -0500, crg wrote: >Frank Zappa says "great googly moogly" in his album _Apostrophe_. > >I think it's in the space between "St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast" and >"Father O'Blivion." As John Baker noted upthread, Zappa says the phrase in "Nanook Rubs It", the second track on _Apostrophe_. ----- And then In a fit of anger I pounced And I pounced again Great Googly Moogly! http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/Apostrophe/02.html http://www.arf.ru/Notes/Apostro/rubsit.html ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 22:28:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:28:58 -0500 Subject: jargonese (1957) Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:17:05 -0500, Barnhart wrote: > >Edward Clark’s [Kingston College] translation of “peasantry” as “those >who by socio-economic standards are graded as belonging to the stratum >of the community depending on pastroro-agricultural pursuits for a >livelihood” is, in my opinion, first-class jargonese. >Thomas Wright, “Get It Straight,” The Daily Gleaner [Kingston, Jamaica], >March 2, 1957, p 6 JSTOR's got it back to 1940... ----- The author's single eye for organization allows to pass into the text many trite and fuzzy lumps of jargonese he probably would never acccept from a student. Review: Technical Reports Author(s) of Review: A. M. Fountain Reviewed Work(s): Writing the Technical Report by J. Raleigh Nelson College English > Vol. 1, No. 8 (May, 1940), pp. 717-718 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0010-0994%28194005%291%3A8%3C717%3ATR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 ----- --Ben Zimmer From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 23:21:28 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:21:28 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <200503291423.1dgp782Lv3NZFpK0@mx-a065b01.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 5:23 PM -0500 3/29/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >As John Baker noted upthread, Zappa says the phrase in "Nanook Rubs >It", the second track on _Apostrophe_. Now there's a fun word I've yet to encounter...."upthread", not necessarily sexy, but so perfectly fitting as to have seemingly always been. Can we now have, say, threadwidth? Or "I've spooled the last three posts". WAIT, someone beat me to THAT one . He sez, bobbin his head up & down, trying to put the list in stitches. Sigh.... Finding dental floss hard to negotiate with zircon-encrusted tweezers, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Tue Mar 29 23:50:22 2005 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:50:22 -0600 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker In-Reply-To: <200503291952.j2TJq0Go002299@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: He needs to tell them to work on the speech recognition function in Word, also. I am having great fun playing with it. After three tries, I got this: Once upon a time there was a little cat name jezebel space jezebel ran ran ran because she was my [ hyper and to she exercise every day jezebel was in training for the cat Olympics and when she ran she also jumped Clyde and the kitty ballet jezebel strainer was a cat named Lee’s Louise did not run very fast but she still run after jezebel me howling me at winged a give up and trying to encourage jezebel to run faster when Louise caught up with jezebel she would biter on the tail and tougher her with her large pot tilapia did give it up. In a session and that of session this session is now over look at It has training sessions, but I am not sure who is training what exactly. DWells From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET Wed Mar 30 00:55:04 2005 From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:55:04 +0000 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker Message-ID: I just read your post and am wondering if this is the method used to generate the emails I keep getting about Viagra that include random words to sneak past my spam filter. I find them strangely compelling.... Carrie Lowery -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wells Darla L > Subject: Re: article about Microsoft grammar checker > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > He needs to tell them to work on the speech recognition function in Word, > also. I am having great fun playing with it. After three tries, I got this: > > Once upon a time there was a little cat name jezebel space jezebel ran ran ran > because she was my [ hyper and to she exercise every day jezebel was in > training for the cat Olympics and when she ran she also jumped Clyde and the > kitty ballet jezebel strainer was a cat named Lee�s Louise did not run very > fast but she still run after jezebel me howling me at winged a give up and > trying to encourage jezebel to run faster when Louise caught up with jezebel > she would biter on the tail and tougher her with her large pot tilapia did > give it up. In a session and that of session this session is now over look at > > It has training sessions, but I am not sure who is training what exactly. > > DWells From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 01:06:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:06:44 -0800 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." Message-ID: I find more than two dozen exx. of this phrase (and "...no draws") on the Web and Usenet - all, I believe, from Britain and Ireland. The phrase is said to be at least fifty years old. There are about three hits for the variant, "Red shoes, no drawers." The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, no cattle." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 01:32:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:32:56 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal novitiate" mean? -Wilson On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as > in its primary citation). > And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 > years. > > But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, > or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. > > JL > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must > not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on > jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a > 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an > entry of its own there.) > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Hypercorrectional orthography : >> >> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >> knight's quest." >> >> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Wed Mar 30 01:39:51 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:39:51 -0600 Subject: "Enticing the bilingual consumer" Message-ID: Public release date: 29-Mar-2005 Contact: Carrie Olivia Adams coa at press.uchicago.edu 773-834-0386 University of Chicago Press Journals Enticing the bilingual consumer Interject an English word into the Spanish ad Even though 20% of American consumers consider themselves bilingual, advertisers have had little idea of how best to reach this growing sector of the U.S. population. A recent study of "code-switching" by David Luna (Baruch College) and Laura Peracchio (University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee), published in the March 2005 issue of the Journal of Consumer Research, provides some provoking ideas. "Code-switching" is the academic term for changing horses in mid-sentence--or, in this instance, interjecting an English word into a Spanish sentence. Because English is seen as the "dominant" language, placing an English word into a Spanish ad is more persuasive than the reverse--placing a Spanish word into an ad written primarily in English. Why should this be so? Linguists have long understood that language signals social identity. Explaining that "code-switching activates language-specific associations," the authors observe that minority languages are perceived to have less prestige than majority languages. Thus advertisers who switched from a majority to a minority language (typically English to Spanish) "elicited a significantly higher proportion of negative thoughts" and lower product evaluations than advertisers who made the switch in reverse. Luna and Peracchio's study is significant for raising these ideas and invites further research into consumer attitudes toward majority and minority language use, attitudes which become increasingly complex as perceptions of minority languages shift. ### Advertising to Bilingual Consumers: The Impact of Code-Switching on Persuasion. By DAVID LUNA AND LAURA A. PERACCHIO. © 2005 by JOURNAL OF CONSUMER RESEARCH, Inc. - Vol. 31 - March 2005 -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 02:09:04 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:09:04 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: <74727a8bac359df56551916d5cfbfeae@rcn.com> Message-ID: >Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be >"virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal >novitiate" mean? > >-Wilson Maybe it's a metanalysis of "the virginal novice I..." No, let's not go there. Larry > >On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: noviciate >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as >>in its primary citation). >>And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 >>years. >> >>But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, >>or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. >> >>JL >> >>Grant Barrett wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Grant Barrett >>Subject: Re: noviciate >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >>not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >>jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >>1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >>entry of its own there.) >> >>Grant Barrett >>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> >>On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>>Hypercorrectional orthography : >>> >>>2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >>>"Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >>>knight's quest." >>> >>>"Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 02:09:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:09:08 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had >> occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story >> had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the >> subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston >> while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also >> wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts >> of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. >> I >> expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random >> people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Maybe there was a wine-tasting they were all attending? > > (For some reason, I always have had this strong UC Davis/oenology > association working for me.) > > Larry > Well, that's completely understandable, Larr. Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. -Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 30 02:27:00 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:27:00 -0500 Subject: Pollyanna In-Reply-To: <42492B22.11011.3DD11C8@localhost> Message-ID: >Why, particularly in Pennsylvania, is a type of gift exchange by >drawing lots - another name for which, I have just learned, is >"secret Santa" - called a Pollyanna (in full, "Pollyanna gift >exchange")? Could it possibly be derived from Eleanor Hodgman >Porter's character? Yes, I think it likely, although I don't know that it's certain. DARE has a good entry for this word. Without making a full search, I find (e.g.) in the Danville VA _Bee_, 12 Dec. 1932 (p. 4): <> ("Pollyannas" = "Pollyanna gifts" I suppose). In the novel _Pollyanna_ there was an instance of Pollyanna conveying a gift whose donor had explicitly disavowed it: perhaps "anonymous gift" was originally the idea. Another incident in the book had Pollyanna receiving a useless gift and being told to be glad for it by her positive-thinking father. Alternatively, the "Pollyanna gift exchange" might have been named after some "Pollyanna Society" or so which had such an event: there were apparently clubs or groups with this name pre-1930, named after the Pollyanna in the novel. Pollyanna was of course a naive saccharine irrationally optimistic little girl, now 'immortalized' in the noun "Pollyanna" = "blindly optimistic or irritatingly cheerful person". -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 02:27:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:27:30 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Believe it or else, "novitiate" appears in dictionaries incl. OED as a synonym of "novice." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: noviciate ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal novitiate" mean? -Wilson On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as > in its primary citation). > And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 > years. > > But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, > or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. > > JL > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must > not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on > jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a > 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an > entry of its own there.) > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Hypercorrectional orthography : >> >> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >> knight's quest." >> >> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 02:54:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:54:58 -0500 Subject: "The Projects" (public housing projects) (1939) Message-ID: OED is at "P" and I'd like to know what it has for "Projects." I'd like to add it to my NYC web page. (That should have the 1937 Big Apple song attached sometime soon, before I die.) "Projects" mean "housing projects." Or maybe people live in their science projects? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("live in the projects") OFFICIALS AT ODDS ON STATE SLUM BILL; Legislative Hearing Reveals Widely Divergent Views on Sum to Be Authorized LABOR FOR $300,000,000 But Other Speakers Urge Caution--Real Estate Groups Oppose Pending Plans Points of Difference Letter From La Guardia Is Read Urges Powers for Zoning Boards Calls 65,000 Tenements "Unfit" A.F.L. Man Hits Realty Groups Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 1939. p. 4 (1 page): In general, they held that under the present plans for the proposed housing projects, the lower-income groups could not afford to live in the projects, and, as a result, the housing program would not help those who needed it most but would, in effect, set up a State-subsidized real estate market which would compete "unfairly" with private industry. NEGROES CHARGE JIM CROWISM IN FEDERAL HOUSING; Only 35 Families Assisted, Leaders Assert. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 28, 1939. p. 4 (1 page): Horace Clayton, director of a Negro research project for the University of CHicago--"Negro families have applied to the housing authority for permission to live in the projects and have not been accepted." PRIEST FEARS 'GHETTO' FOR BLIND VETERANS New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 26, 1950. p. 15 (1 page) : He said the blinded veterans and their families would live in the project apartment building only during a rehabilitation period--perhaps six months or a year--after which the organization would help them go wherever they wished. Killing at Red Hook Houses Makes Many Fear to Go Out By PAUL L. MONTGOMERY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1970. p. 39 (1 page): The patrolmen say most of the predatory youths are addicts who live in the project. Rising Crime Stirs Fear On the Lower East Side By LESLEY OELSNER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 22, 1971. p. 51 (1 page) : Several Housing Authority policemen, however, and some project tenants as well, say it is just as likely the young addicts who live in the projects with their parents. Graffiti Cleanups a 'Lark' for the Young-; Housing Authority printed a cartoon in its publication as part of the drive against defacement. Transit men envy the authority's success. By ROBERT E. TOMASSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1974. p. 537 (1 page) : Transit officials speak almost with envy of the jurisdiction the Housing Authority can exercise over the families of offenders who live in the projects. From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 03:20:38 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:20:38 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com Message-ID: I just went to Americandialect.com instead of Americandialect.org, by mistake. Has anyone ever done this? I'm now looking for hot African-American women in my area. :-) (WWW.AMERICANDIALECT.COM) Afro American Women Free to Join. 1000's of pictures & video's of Beautiful Black singles www.BlackPeopleMeet.com Black English Improve speech, diction, writing. Better test scores and grades. www.axorask.com English Accent Reduction Programs for call-centers, BPO, IT Teacher-led; your site or ours www.altalang.com Afro-American Personals Find Fun, Romance, Love and More. Safely & Securely. Meet Someone Now MatchTrust.com Wear Your Pirate Saying Express Yourself With Swashbuckling Slang Tees, Tanks & More www.piratemod.com Chinese Computer Keyboard Large variety of foreign languages Visit The Key Connection www.customkeys.com American Dialect Low Prices & Huge Selection! Register on eBay. www.ebay.com From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 03:41:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:41:58 -0500 Subject: "No Republican or Democratic way to clean the streets" (1934) Message-ID: I thought that I did this phrase, but maybe not. Does Fred Shapiro have it?...FWIW: I just picked up Road Runner today...OK, I'll pay a million dollars for someone to put one song on my website, but it must be done absolutely no later than ten years from now...FWIW: See the bottom of my website (www.barrypopik.com). I'm running for office twelve years ago. Fiorello La Guardia surely said this, but the first citation below is from Samuel Seabury. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1,500 BACK SEABURY ON ECONOMY BILL; Long Island Episcopal Laymen Send Demand to Steingut for End of Opposition. BISHOP PROPOSES ACTION Stires Breaks Precedent After Fusion Leader Appeals for Support for LaGuardia. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 23, 1934. p. 2 (1 page) : He (Samuel Seabury--ed.) expressed the belief, however, that the public had begun to realize that the administration of city government was not a matter of partisan politics but of business--"that there is no Democratic or Republican way to clean the streets." Durable Campaigner; Theodore Roosevelt Kupferman New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 22, 1962. p. 22 (1 page) : "As La Guardia used to say, "There's no Democratic or Republican way to sweep the streets." Quotation of the Day New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 27, 1965. p. 39 (1 page) : "I'm running as Lindsay. As Fiorello La Guardia said, there is no Republican way or Democratic Way to clean the streets."--Representative John V. Lindsay at a news conference in Washington. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Sheboygan Press Thursday, May 27, 1965 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS. mountainous.....years Ody AND I have been friends, THE REPUBLICAN party comes from THE botTOm.. ... Newark Advocate Thursday, June 03, 1965 Newark, Ohio ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS." That is so.....be mayor of New York. As a Progressive REPUBLICAN, he knew THE obstacles TO.. ... Great Bend Daily Tribune Thursday, May 27, 1965 Great Bend, Kansas ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS." Pioneer.....Tilonka. Iowa on August 29th. NEW YORK REPUBLICAN Rep. John V. Lindsay saying.. ... Syracuse Herald Journal Sunday, July 03, 1966 Syracuse, New York ...is no REPUBLICAN or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS'1 AND carries his.....THE conclusion that THEre is only one WAY TO protect THE lives of American AND.. (JSTOR) Ambition in Israel: A Comparative Extension of Theory and Data Gerald M. Pomper The Western Political Quarterly > Vol. 28, No. 4 (Dec., 1975), pp. 712-732 Pg. 726: The cliche that "there is no Republican or Democratic way to clean the streets" may not be applicable in America, but it is more true that "there is no Labor or Likus way to carry out policy determined in Kerusalem." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 03:43:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:20 PM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Americandialect.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Black English > Improve speech, diction, writing. Better test scores and grades. > www.axorask.com > From www.axorask.com: "Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin’ to'”? -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 03:55:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:55:10 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Believe it or else, "novitiate" appears in dictionaries incl. OED as a > synonym of "novice." > > JL > Hmh. Must be some kind of weird, Protestant usage. ;-) -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be > "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal > novitiate" mean? > > -Wilson > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: noviciate >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as >> in its primary citation). >> And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 >> years. >> >> But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, >> or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. >> >> JL >> >> Grant Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> Subject: Re: noviciate >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >> not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >> jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >> 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >> entry of its own there.) >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> >> On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> Hypercorrectional orthography : >>> >>> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >>> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >>> knight's quest." >>> >>> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 30 04:13:17 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:13:17 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: <200503291706.1dgrFs1873NZFpQ0@mx-a065b28.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >no cattle." Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" That dawg won't hunt, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 30 04:21:29 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:21:29 -0500 Subject: "The Projects" (public housing projects) (1939) In-Reply-To: <8C702EAFE635331-C14-B164@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 21:54, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED is at "P" and I'd like to know what it has for "Projects." I'd > like to add it to my NYC web page. (That should have the 1937 Big > Apple song attached sometime soon, before I die.) Well, you can stop your bellyaching. The song is on your site now. I take it you did not de-stress yourself by getting drunk at Purim and traipsing around dressed like King Ahashverosh. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 04:34:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:34:40 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:13 PM -0500 3/29/05, Rex W. Stocklin wrote: >At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >>no cattle." > >Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" > Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. Larry From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Wed Mar 30 05:18:51 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:18:51 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." Message-ID: Any relationship to the Scottish phrase, frequently said about a stereotypical Edinburgh resident who is all perfect in his/her outside image but who is poverty-stricken and probably eating cat food: "Fur coat 'n nae knickers"? Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 11:13 PM -0500 3/29/05, Rex W. Stocklin wrote: > >At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >>The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, > >>no cattle." > > > >Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" > > > Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" > version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. > > Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 30 05:27:50 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:27:50 -0600 Subject: Americandialect.com Message-ID: >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Tue 3/29/2005 9:43 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Americandialect.com > > From www.axorask.com: > >"Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin' >to'"? > >-Wilson Gray Bubba Gump said "srimps" instead of shrimp or skrimp (and that seems to be pretty accurate for the Bayou la Batre region, from what I've seen). I've heard "shtraight" much more than "skraight" (and not only from blacks, but it seems more common there than in caucasian, although I heard one of the announcers on the Lady Vols game on ESPN use it earlier tonight). And this white boy says "fixin' to" all the time. From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 30 05:44:48 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:44:48 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: <200503292034.1dguUL3bU3NZFpA0@mx-a065a05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 11:34 PM -0500 3/29/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" >version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. > >Larry Well, this is what I've got to say about the veracity of a Google search. If you search for, say, "poo-pooed", you'll get a batch of citations. I turned up 11,900 English pages. Almost to a one the authors MEANT "pooh-poohed", but in their haste, ignorance or whatever they got it wrong. No such official word exists, though it could be an alternate spelling of the child's scatological term for poop. Either poo-poo, poopoo or poo poo, I dunno. This is not my field of study. I GUESS the ultimate arbitration would be how many of those "hatted" websites for either side were Texan. They would be the one's toward which I'd lean. ;-) Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 06:11:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:11:19 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 12:27 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: Americandialect.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > =20 > >> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Tue 3/29/2005 9:43 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Americandialect.com >> >> From www.axorask.com: >> >> "Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin' >> to'"? >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Bubba Gump said "srimps" instead of shrimp or skrimp (and that seems > to = > be pretty accurate for the Bayou la Batre region, from what I've > seen). = > I've heard "shtraight" much more than "skraight" (and not only from = > blacks, but it seems more common there than in caucasian, although I = > heard one of the announcers on the Lady Vols game on ESPN use it > earlier = > tonight). And this white boy says "fixin' to" all the time. > Yeah, "Fixin' to" is a fine old general Southernism. I have a friend who says "skreek, skraighk," etc. for "street, straight," etc. The funny thing is that he doesn't believe that he talks like that. If i say anything to him about it, he says, "Man, I don't say no 'skreek'! I say 'street'!" And he does, *then.* But, of course, he always does say "skreek," as long as he's not monitoring. Until you call his attention to it. Which causes him to monitor. I've tried getting him on tape. Unfortunately, that also causes him to monitor. -Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 30 07:32:55 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:32:55 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <4132667de30a70e55c97b0300ee00867@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two > things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and > fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? Jesse Sheidlower OED From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Mar 30 09:23:28 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:23:28 +0100 Subject: Pollyanna In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050329210753.02fea150@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas Wilson wrote: > In the novel _Pollyanna_ there was an instance of Pollyanna conveying > a gift whose donor had explicitly disavowed it: perhaps "anonymous > gift" was originally the idea. Another incident in the book had > Pollyanna receiving a useless gift and being told to be glad for it by > her positive-thinking father. Alternatively, the "Pollyanna gift > exchange" might have been named after some "Pollyanna Society" or so > which had such an event: there were apparently clubs or groups with > this name pre-1930, named after the Pollyanna in the novel. Pollyanna > was of course a naive saccharine irrationally optimistic little girl, > now 'immortalized' in the noun "Pollyanna" = "blindly optimistic or > irritatingly cheerful person". Many thanks for those leads. Further delving in newspaperarchive.com turns up lots of references to Pollyanna(s) clubs/societies from about 1916 onwards, always associated with churches, especially the Church of Christ, the Lutheran Church and the Baptist Church, in various states. Their function seems from context to have been social and to entertain at gatherings. A search on Google shows that such clubs still exist in some places. There is one further example that gives a clue to their function: 1922 Nebraska State Journal (Lincoln, Nebraska) 9 July B3/4 A group of Pollyannas met Friday morning from 10 to 1 o'clock at the home of Ruth Barnard for a shower in honor of Miss Ola Kallenberger who is soon to become the bride of Charles Spacht. Two hours were spent pleasantly with games, during which Miss Kallenberger was showered with a large assortment of towels, holders and recipes. I can find nothing that suggests why they should have been so named, though the absence of references before 1916 may indicate they were named in direct reference to the Pollyanna stories, the first one of which was published in 1913. Presumably, the reference is to the "glad game" of the book, in which Pollyanna tries to find cause for happiness in the most disastrous situations. Any further information anyone can turn up will be most welcome! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zhangyx106 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 10:04:29 2005 From: zhangyx106 at YAHOO.COM (Yan Zhang) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:04:29 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President��s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 10:41:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) Message-ID: OT: Thanks to Grant Barrett and Orion Montoya for their help in digitizing the 1937 "Big Apple" song. My website had about 3,400 hits yesterday. ... ... Tuesday's Daily News headline was "BLASTS FROM PAST." Tuesday's Metro headline was "BLAST FROM PAST." Both were about testimony in the Michael Jackson trial. I took a look and the second paper's headline and mistaken thought that I'd already picked it up and read it. ... I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film AMERICAN GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in the OED. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... Display Ad 9 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 (1 page) ... meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person in The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies of his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that have sold a million copies or more! (SEARS ad--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 11:54:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:54:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Malapropism" In-Reply-To: <1a5.3444a91a.2f7bdc4c@aol.com> Message-ID: malapropism (OED3 1830 Dec.) 1830 _Amer. Monthly Mag._ Oct. 486 (American Periodical Series) What a world the man must live in, if the other malapropisms of this ill-assorted planet strike him with similar impressions! Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 12:36:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:36:59 -0800 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Have heard both. Cf. (from _The Maltese Falcon_) "The cheaper the crook, the flashier the patter." JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >no cattle." Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" That dawg won't hunt, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 12:46:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:46:26 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President��s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Wed Mar 30 13:33:48 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:33:48 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <20050330124626.22368.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As a kid I always wondered why we said Hawaii for the Hawaiian Islands, but not Phillipi for the Phillipine Islands. sally o. donlon From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Mar 31 02:18:29 2005 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:18:29 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons into lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take my troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, Always feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." Did you get anything about the author? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > 1910 version of "Shine" > > > > VERSE > > When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > > But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > > Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > > Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > > And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > > When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > > But I don't care a bit. > > Here's how I figure it: > > > > CHORUS > > > > Well, just because my hair is curly, > > And just because my teeth is pearly, > > Just because I always wears a smile, > > Likes to dress up in the latest style. > > Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > > Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > > Just because my color's shady, > > Slightly different, maybe. > > That is why they call me shine. > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Dear Mr. Gray: >> >> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >> also a >> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >> more than >> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big >> in my >> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >> listening to >> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >> ocurred >> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >> from a >> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >> compliments. >> >> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >> matters. Do >> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >> if my >> impression is on or off target? >> >> Will appreciate your comments. >> >> Bob Fitzke >> > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 14:46:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:46:32 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film AMERICAN >GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in the OED. >... >Display Ad 9 -- No Title >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 (1 >page) >... >meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person in >The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies of >his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that have >sold a million copies or more! >(SEARS ad--ed.) Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast from the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: ----- http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in mid-1958, Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier every day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was the creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and "submarine race watching." ----- http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible for Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also Rick who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce oldies on Murray’s WINS show. ----- There's a clip on of Murray the K saying, "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a 1961 album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": . --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 14:58:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800 Subject: hair band Message-ID: This kind of hair band is missing from OED : 1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than the typical glam stuff. Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 14:58:48 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:58:48 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: sally o. donlon wrote: >As a kid I always wondered why we said Hawaii for the Hawaiian Islands, >but not Phillipi for the Phillipine Islands. Sally's youthful attempt to apply her understanding of the 'rules' of English helps to expose some layers of complexity beyond the simple accuracy of Jonathan Lighter's >Short for "the Philippine Islands." Place names imposed by colonial 'powers' are a curious mixture of 'native' names -The Hawaiian islands,(as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) named after the 'big island' of Hawai'i. (if this approach had been used for what are now the Phillipines, then the country might now be the Luzon Islands, or simply, Luzon.) And non-native names: -The Phillipine Islands, named by Spanish imperialists as las Islas Filipinas, after Felipe II, King of Spain. The English, who have an interesting habit of anglicizing some foreign personal or place names, but not others), in this case (I believe) already had 'Phillip' as the English equivalent of Felipe, so these islands came to be anglicized as the 'Phillipine Islands', a form which generally requires the definite article, because of its plural structure and I suppose, the fact that one could be referring to several of the thousands of Phillipine Islands, while not intending to refer to the whole shebang, if one said 'Phillipine Islands,' omitting the definite article. Note that Filipino/a people, even in anglophone countries like the USA, insist on using the Spanish-derived term to refer to themselves, rather that something anglicized,like 'Phillipino'. If the English had named the Phillipines after a Phillip of their own, they might have done the same thing (i.e., the Phillipine Islands, or perhaps the Phillipian Islands), but they might also have chosen something like 'Phillipsland'. Naming after kings has been a problem for the English (and other Europeans), since kings go by first names, and it doesn't sound right to say the Phillip Islands, the way it does to say 'the Cook Islands' (after Cap. Cook). So there seems to be a rule hanging around somewhere concerning how to transform first names, vs. last names, in such situations. Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:15:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:15:45 -0500 Subject: hair band Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This kind of hair band is missing from OED : > >1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had >the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than >the typical glam stuff. > >Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully >styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... ----- St. Petersburg Times, June 17, 1991, p. 1D Are hard rockers going soft, wimping out? Nah. Don't expect crunching power chords to vanish any time this millennium. But the better groups are breaking from the pack, looking to expand the perception of what a pop-metal "hair band" can do, plumbing new dynamics for the style. ----- Boston Globe, Nov 3, 1991, p. 77 Devotees can argue forever about these genre differences, or for that matter about how to separate metal and hard rock - as in, say, AC/DC, Skid Row and Aerosmith. "The line is very hazy between hard rock and heavy metal," said Aerosmith's Joe Perry before a recent Boston show. "But it all comes down to hard rock to me. "Whatever you want to call it, I think there's a backlash against the hair bands," Perry said. ----- St. Petersburg Times, Dec 6, 1991, p. 21 Rhino's Never Mind the Mainstream (66:42), even though the tie-in with MTV's alternative program 120 Minutes comes off as a bit cheesy, effectively chronicles rock's fringe of recent years. It also serves as a good primer if you've locked your dial on rock radio for the last half-decade and listened to all those hair bands. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:25:08 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:25:08 -0500 Subject: hair band Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:15:45 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>This kind of hair band is missing from OED : >> >>1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had >>the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than >>the typical glam stuff. >> >>Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >>popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully >>styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. > >Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair >bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... Whoops, make that 1989 on Usenet: ----- I find the Radar Love cover to be pointless. I find "when the children cry" to be retched, cliche, drivel. Chock up another cliche, money making, hair band. rec.music.misc - Oct 25 1989, 10:15 pm by Aaron Kremer ----- The RUMORS I heard at the "hair band" record stores in Seattle were that Nancy and Ann kicked him out due to personality conflicts. rec.music.misc - Nov 2 1989, 9:23 pm by Peter Craft ----- I used to own the last two Heart tapes but trashed them because they have just become another hair band which is sad. rec.music.misc - Nov 6 1989, 10:52 am by send ----- --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:26:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:26:54 -0500 Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis Message-ID: Our topic from last week, supporting Ben Zimmer's nominee... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:03:59 -0500 From: Wordsmith To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis antiphrasis (an-TIF-ruh-sis) noun The humorous or ironic use of a word or a phrase in a sense opposite of its usual meaning. For example: "Brutus is an honorable man." -Antony in Julius Caesar (Shakespeare) [From Late Latin, from Greek antiphrazein (to express by the opposite), from anti- + phrazein (to speak).] Today's word in Visual Thesaurus: http://visualthesaurus.com/?w1=antiphrasis "He was murmuring something between lips decorated by a little mustache, which gave a sarcastic touch to his clerk-like expression, a mustache folded over his mouth like an antiphrasis, which tinged whatever he said with maliciousness, no matter how solemn it was." Edoardo Albinati & John Satriano; Story Written on a Motorcycle; Antioch Review (Yellow Springs, Ohio); Summer 1992. --- end forwarded text From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:29:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:29:08 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Malapropism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 3:54 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > malapropism (OED3 1830 Dec.) > > 1830 _Amer. Monthly Mag._ Oct. 486 (American Periodical Series) > What a world the man must live in, if the other malapropisms of this > ill-assorted planet strike him with similar impressions! is this "malapropism" in the sense 'something that is malapropos, socially inappropriate'? arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:33:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:33:29 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050330073255.GA3707@panix.com> Message-ID: At 2:32 AM -0500 3/30/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier constructions considered oxymoronic? L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:52:42 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: I believe that the lyrics to "Shine" were written by Andy Razaf. If so, there is a biography of him: Black and Blue: The Life and Lyrics of Andy Razaf, by Barry Singer; foreword by Bobby Short. New York: Toronto & New York: Schirmer Books; Maxwell Macmillan Canada; Maxwell Macmillan International, c1992. Razaf was the child of an black American woman and a Madagascarene nobleman -- this sounds like a story his public relations guy thought up after kicking the gong around, but it is verifiable; he was raised in the U. S. There is also a biographical sketch in the American National Biography, and I dare say one in the Grove Dictionary of Jazz and/or the Grove Dictionary of American Music. He wrote the lyrics to a number of Fats Waller's songs. The version of Shine I know is the one Louis Armstrong made in the 1920s. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Fitzke Date: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:14 pm Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. > I'm also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was > big in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The > thought ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it > appears from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song > or if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 16:05:16 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:05:16 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for 'Netherlands.' In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere Eidgenossenschaft, die Türkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why English and German use articles in front of country names, some of which are optional, but German has so many more than English. Fritz Juengling >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President¡ s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 16:17:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:17:31 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Look up "novitiate" on Visual Thesaurus and discover the hip spelling "noviciate." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our topic from last week, supporting Ben Zimmer's nominee... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:03:59 -0500 From: Wordsmith To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis antiphrasis (an-TIF-ruh-sis) noun The humorous or ironic use of a word or a phrase in a sense opposite of its usual meaning. For example: "Brutus is an honorable man." -Antony in Julius Caesar (Shakespeare) [From Late Latin, from Greek antiphrazein (to express by the opposite), from anti- + phrazein (to speak).] Today's word in Visual Thesaurus: http://visualthesaurus.com/?w1=antiphrasis "He was murmuring something between lips decorated by a little mustache, which gave a sarcastic touch to his clerk-like expression, a mustache folded over his mouth like an antiphrasis, which tinged whatever he said with maliciousness, no matter how solemn it was." Edoardo Albinati & John Satriano; Story Written on a Motorcycle; Antioch Review (Yellow Springs, Ohio); Summer 1992. --- end forwarded text --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 16:18:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:18:00 -0500 Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' Message-ID: I'd greatly appreciate some help with the terms 'match hunt', 'side hunt', and the probably related form, 'hunting match'. In each case, I'm referring to specific uses of these terms to mean a particular form of animal-hunting activity, where two teams (or, I suppose, two individuals) compete based on their hunting success ('bagged' quarry) over a set period of time (and perhaps, area). AFAIK, 'match hunt' and 'side hunt' are Americanisms. OTOH, 'hunting match' may have a quite ancient history in English, with references (in English) going back to descriptions of Persian, Greek and Roman practices, Mostly, however, 'hunting match' seems to have been used in the UK in connection with large-scale, elite or nobility social/political hunting events, including some infamously bogus 'hunting matches' uses to lure enemies into gatherings where they might be captured, killed, or otherwise manipulated. At the moment, I don't have access to OED or HDAS or any of the best standard references, so any information from such sources would be a great help. In order to avoid wasting people's time, allow me to provide more details (than most of you want) on this topic: European hunting, of course, was at various times and places a prerogative of the elite/nobility, resulting in the criminalization of hunting by the lower classes as 'poaching.' (A number of people convicted of 'poaching' were transported to the colonies--both North America and Australia, I believe.) So it seems reasonable to assume that 'match hunts' in the USA may have been to a certain extent celebrations of liberation from the tyranny of European laws restricting hunting to the elite. And they may have mimicked, to a certain extent the hunting matches of the European elites. But researching such a possible connection has so far been quite difficult. Any assistance or suggestions would be much appreciated. Again AFAIK, USA match/side hunts were conducted afoot (rather than on horseback, like 'foxhunting'), nor did they involve dogs, nor did the entire hunt chase a single fox, rabbit, or other quarry (also different from foxhunting). Instead, each hunter scored points independently on his kills, which were then added to his team's score, to determine which side won. Based on my research, 'match hunt' was a much more common usage than 'side hunt', but 'side hunt' was used in at least some areas around 1900 (with the supposed derivation of 'hunting by sides' i.e., teams). The Audubon Society, in one of its origin stories, cites 'side hunts' as being the impetus for the now nationwide and annually-scheduled 'bird counts,' which were begun on a small scale in 1900 in an attempt to eliminate the 'senseless' slaughter of birds (and other wildlife) by a 'Christmas side hunt' competition. Many match or side hunts do appear to have been 'senseless slaughter', with all kinds of animals being killed, ranging from songbirds to bison, usually in a system where a varying number of points were allotted to each different species, for scoring purposes. Some of these hunts had a perhaps 'redeeming social value': rat hunts, and in some cases, rabbit hunts, were targetted at perceived pests. Other match hunts went for anything that breathed and was big enough to shoot. Adding to the 'senseless waste,' in many cases, the 'game' from many such hunts was not eaten (even if edible and choice), although there was usually a celebratory meal following the event (paid for and served by the losers, to the winners). Googlers beware: it's hard to eliminate phrases like 'the punishment did not match Hunt's crime' and 'fearing a fire, we sent the children on a match hunt all around the house...' Also, sports teams are sometimes reported as 'hunting matches' with certain rivals, etc. Don't be surprised if you and I match hunts. Really extraneous details, for the addicted: Match or side hunts were generaly distinct from 'ring hunts' (which refers to a hunting strategy of trying to surround a large area with hunters, who then drive the game into a small, roughly circulur kill zone), but it's possible that there were some connections, since ring hunts required at least a (singular) team, or even a team of 'beaters' and a (usually smaller) team of shooters. There are reports of this type of hunting sometimes being practiced by Native Americans. When Euros tried it, the references I've seen described poor discipline and large holes in the 'ring' which allowed most or all of the game to escape. There were also 'cross-fire' problems when the ring got small enough that the animals were within range. Once again, any help with the history/derivation of these specific usages would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 16:19:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:19:13 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, I've heard such phrases so described - and by the usual oxymorons. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:32 AM -0500 3/30/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier constructions considered oxymoronic? L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 16:28:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:28:58 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <200503301533.j2UFXS7V000767@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > > > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier > constructions considered oxymoronic? Certainly expressions like "powerhouse Division II football team" are commonly used in sports. Like "ace of the Colorado Rockies pitching staff." I should note, though, that "jumbo shrimp," which is similar to "large mouse," is considered to be a classic oxymoron. (I nominate "moderate Republican" as a new classic oxymoron.) Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 30 17:01:02 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:01:02 -0500 Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang Message-ID: I helped someone at San Francisco University High School with an article on slang for their parents' newsletter. You might be interested in the slang list put together by the students and the writer. I've included all of their terms, even though many are not new. "Sweet, Tight and Hella Stupid" by Ava Swartz, SFUHS Update (San Francisco), Mar.-Apr. 2005, p. 2 ana--anorexic bootsy--smelly bunk--a situation, object, or person that another finds objectionable burn--put down, to be insulted; a socially degrading situation butchers--which, according to Richard Cole, is British slang for “look” — as in, “Come have a butchers at this.” chill--(adjective) cool, in a relaxed way. Chill = easy going crazy--the adverb, meaning “very” cutty--shady dime--used to describe a member of the opposite sex as a “perfect ten” dude--friend fit--attractive or beautiful fly--fine, attractive fonkay--funky. “You smell fonkay” fresh--tight gnarley--awesome or cool. “A gnarley wave” hella--very, a superlative (Northern Ca) hella--tight really cool hooking up--flirting with, maybe even kissing (always implies more than that, but it’s never true) hyphy--to become overly excited (southern U.S. derivative: crunk) Ill--to be extremely pleasing (“off the chain”; sick; tight) “ill” means sort of awesome Janky--Weird, smelly mad wicked = tight moded--beaten obese -- really good or really big. “Obese homework” rey--important shizzle--for sure sick--tight sketchy--shady, of dubious moral quality solid--decent, good work special--odd, interesting (but not very) spittin’ game--flirting stupid--very cool, popular that’s clutch--that’s tight that’s washed--(unable to define articulately; something that is not good) tight--cool, good, sweet washed--bad we’re gonna peace them--we’re leaving or ditching them word--yeah, I concur wicked--hella (East Coast) .... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 18:37:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:29 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:28 AM -0500 3/30/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? >> > >> Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier >> constructions considered oxymoronic? > >Certainly expressions like "powerhouse Division II football team" are >commonly used in sports. Like "ace of the Colorado Rockies pitching >staff." > >I should note, though, that "jumbo shrimp," which is similar to "large >mouse," is considered to be a classic oxymoron. I'm not sure they're entirely similar, since "large" is an unmarked adjective, so it's easier to read "large mouse", or "large shrimp" for that matter, as 'relatively large...' than it is to read "jumbo shrimp" as 'relatively jumbo'. I'd think any sort of item X that has size could be described as a large X without oxymoronicity if it's (significantly?) larger than the average X. > >(I nominate "moderate Republican" as a new classic oxymoron.) > Well, there's been a sighting of one, but it's Sen. Arnold Vinick (R-Cal.), the Republican nominee played by Alan Alda on The West Wing, and I guess he doesn't count. sigh. L From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 18:51:14 2005 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:51:14 -0800 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I came across a phrase in today's local paper. Two young people were shot, while driving in a car, by a person in a passing car. The investigating officer called it a "rolling drive-by shooting." I Googled it and found only "drive-by shooting." Brenda Lester Macon, GA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 20:36:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:36:42 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons > into > lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take > my > troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, > Always > feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." > > Did you get anything about the author? > Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, Bing Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. *Really* weird, if true. -Wilson Gray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> 1910 version of "Shine" >>> >>> VERSE >>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>> But I don't care a bit. >>> Here's how I figure it: >>> >>> CHORUS >>> >>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>> Just because my color's shady, >>> Slightly different, maybe. >>> That is why they call me shine. >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>> >>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>> also a >>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>> more than >>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>> big >>> in my >>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>> listening to >>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >>> ocurred >>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >>> from a >>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>> compliments. >>> >>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>> matters. Do >>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >>> if my >>> impression is on or off target? >>> >>> Will appreciate your comments. >>> >>> Bob Fitzke >>> >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 20:43:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:43:00 -0500 Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well worth the read, IMO. -Wilson On Mar 30, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Michael McKernan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'd greatly appreciate some help with the terms 'match hunt', 'side > hunt', > and the probably related form, 'hunting match'. > > In each case, I'm referring to specific uses of these terms to mean a > particular form of animal-hunting activity, where two teams (or, I > suppose, two individuals) compete based on their hunting success > ('bagged' > quarry) over a set period of time (and perhaps, area). > > AFAIK, 'match hunt' and 'side hunt' are Americanisms. > > OTOH, 'hunting match' may have a quite ancient history in English, with > references (in English) going back to descriptions of Persian, Greek > and > Roman practices, Mostly, however, 'hunting match' seems to have been > used > in the UK in connection with large-scale, elite or nobility > social/political hunting events, including some infamously bogus > 'hunting > matches' uses to lure enemies into gatherings where they might be > captured, > killed, or otherwise manipulated. > > At the moment, I don't have access to OED or HDAS or any of the best > standard references, so any information from such sources would be a > great > help. > > In order to avoid wasting people's time, allow me to provide more > details > (than most of you want) on this topic: > > European hunting, of course, was at various times and places a > prerogative > of the elite/nobility, resulting in the criminalization of hunting by > the > lower classes as 'poaching.' (A number of people convicted of > 'poaching' > were transported to the colonies--both North America and Australia, I > believe.) So it seems reasonable to assume that 'match hunts' in the > USA > may have been to a certain extent celebrations of liberation from the > tyranny of European laws restricting hunting to the elite. And they may > have mimicked, to a certain extent the hunting matches of the European > elites. But researching such a possible connection has so far been > quite > difficult. Any assistance or suggestions would be much appreciated. > > Again AFAIK, USA match/side hunts were conducted afoot (rather than on > horseback, like 'foxhunting'), nor did they involve dogs, nor did the > entire hunt chase a single fox, rabbit, or other quarry (also > different > from foxhunting). Instead, each hunter scored points independently on > his > kills, which were then added to his team's score, to determine which > side > won. > > Based on my research, 'match hunt' was a much more common usage than > 'side > hunt', but 'side hunt' was used in at least some areas around 1900 > (with > the supposed derivation of 'hunting by sides' i.e., teams). The > Audubon > Society, in one of its origin stories, cites 'side hunts' as being the > impetus for the now nationwide and annually-scheduled 'bird counts,' > which > were begun on a small scale in 1900 in an attempt to eliminate the > 'senseless' slaughter of birds (and other wildlife) by a 'Christmas > side > hunt' competition. > > Many match or side hunts do appear to have been 'senseless slaughter', > with > all kinds of animals being killed, ranging from songbirds to bison, > usually > in a system where a varying number of points were allotted to each > different species, for scoring purposes. > > Some of these hunts had a perhaps 'redeeming social value': rat > hunts, and > in some cases, rabbit hunts, were targetted at perceived pests. Other > match hunts went for anything that breathed and was big enough to > shoot. > > Adding to the 'senseless waste,' in many cases, the 'game' from many > such > hunts was not eaten (even if edible and choice), although there was > usually > a celebratory meal following the event (paid for and served by the > losers, > to the winners). > > Googlers beware: it's hard to eliminate phrases like 'the punishment > did > not match Hunt's crime' and 'fearing a fire, we sent the children on a > match hunt all around the house...' Also, sports teams are sometimes > reported as 'hunting matches' with certain rivals, etc. Don't be > surprised > if you and I match hunts. > > Really extraneous details, for the addicted: > > Match or side hunts were generaly distinct from 'ring hunts' (which > refers > to a hunting strategy of trying to surround a large area with hunters, > who > then drive the game into a small, roughly circulur kill zone), but it's > possible that there were some connections, since ring hunts required at > least a (singular) team, or even a team of 'beaters' and a (usually > smaller) team of shooters. There are reports of this type of hunting > sometimes being practiced by Native Americans. When Euros tried it, > the > references I've seen described poor discipline and large holes in the > 'ring' which allowed most or all of the game to escape. There were > also > 'cross-fire' problems when the ring got small enough that the animals > were > within range. > > Once again, any help with the history/derivation of these specific > usages > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > > > Michael McKernan > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 21:17:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:17:18 -0800 Subject: "genentic" and "cowicorn" Message-ID: Caption on History Channel Broadband today : "This may have been one of the 1st genentically altered animals. Meet Cowicorn." Maybe 1,200 independent Google hits for "genentic," "genentically," "genenticly." "Cowicorn" was a cow with a single horn in the middle of her forehead. She was created at the University of Maine (it doesn't say when - I mean, it must have been some time in history, right?) by means of a grafting operation in heiferhood. So it's "genentic" rather than genetic. (Laff here.)and JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 21:26:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:26:07 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be "The Argentine." Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for 'Netherlands.' In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere Eidgenossenschaft, die T�rkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why English and German use articles in front of country names, some of which are optional, but German has so many more than English. Fritz Juengling >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President� s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 21:29:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:29:36 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <20050330212607.96242.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:26 PM -0800 3/30/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >"The Argentine." >Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." > >JL and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" >FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING >Subject: Re: "The" Philippines >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), >The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits >reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think >the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become >the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for >'Netherlands.' >In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere >Eidgenossenschaft, die T¸rkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, >die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, >der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always >plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why >English and German use articles in front of country names, some of >which are optional, but German has so many more than English. >Fritz Juengling > >>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> >Short for "the Philippine Islands." > >JL > >Yan Zhang wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Yan Zhang >Subject: "The" Philippines >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hi, >I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there >is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President° s >four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the >Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of >Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before >a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. > >Yan > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Mar 30 21:33:38 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:33:38 -0500 Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang In-Reply-To: <20050330170105.C74D910DB38@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Moded was current in LA in the late '70s and early '80s when I was in elementary and middle school. I recall it mostly as a stand-alone expression uttered on seeing another suffer some sort of defeat, "Moded!" Likely it also found use in reflexive expressions of affirmation to the previous example, thusly: "So moded!" I wonder now, what other cultural junk do I have tucked in under the layers of dust? Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I helped someone at San Francisco University High School with an > article on slang for their parents' newsletter. You might be interested > in the slang list put together by the students and the writer. I've > included all of their terms, even though many are not new. > > "Sweet, Tight and Hella Stupid" by Ava Swartz, SFUHS Update (San > Francisco), Mar.-Apr. 2005, p. 2 > > ana--anorexic > > bootsy--smelly > > bunk--a situation, object, or person that another finds objectionable > > burn--put down, to be insulted; a socially degrading situation > > butchers--which, according to Richard Cole, is British slang for “look” > — as in, “Come have a butchers at this.” > > chill--(adjective) cool, in a relaxed way. Chill = easy going > > crazy--the adverb, meaning “very” > > cutty--shady > > dime--used to describe a member of the opposite sex as a “perfect ten” > > dude--friend > > fit--attractive or beautiful > > fly--fine, attractive > > fonkay--funky. “You smell fonkay” > > fresh--tight > > gnarley--awesome or cool. “A gnarley wave” > > hella--very, a superlative (Northern Ca) > > hella--tight really cool > > hooking up--flirting with, maybe even kissing (always implies more than > that, but it’s never true) > > hyphy--to become overly excited (southern U.S. derivative: crunk) > > Ill--to be extremely pleasing (“off the chain”; sick; tight) “ill” > means sort of awesome > > Janky--Weird, smelly > > mad wicked = tight > > moded--beaten > > obese -- really good or really big. “Obese homework” > > rey--important > > shizzle--for sure > > sick--tight > > sketchy--shady, of dubious moral quality > > solid--decent, good work > > special--odd, interesting (but not very) > > spittin’ game--flirting > > stupid--very cool, popular > > that’s clutch--that’s tight > > that’s washed--(unable to define articulately; something that is not > good) > > tight--cool, good, sweet > > washed--bad > > we’re gonna peace them--we’re leaving or ditching them > > word--yeah, I concur > > wicked--hella (East Coast) > > .... > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Mar 30 21:38:30 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:38:30 -0600 Subject: "genentic" and "cowicorn" In-Reply-To: <200503302117.j2ULHJ47002744@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Cowicorn" was a cow with a single horn in the middle of her forehead. She > was created at the University of Maine (it doesn't say when - I mean, it must > have been some time in history, right?) by means of a grafting operation in > heiferhood. This goes back quite a way; if I remember correctly, Willy Ley mentions it in _The Lungfish, the Dodo and the Unicorn_, which appears to have been published in 1952. (I once had a copy, but haven't been able to find it in recent years.) Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 21:51:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:51:35 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I lived in Los Angeles, Andy Razaf lived around the corner from me on Country Club Drive, next door to my girl friend's best friend. Nat "King" Cole lived a couple of blocks away, primarily because he wasn't allowed to buy a house in Beverly Hills and this area, the Wilshire District - west of Western Ave, east of West Los Angeles and north of Pico Blvd,, was as close as the colored could get. This was back in the old days, when no amount of yellow could change black into white. (Supposedly, there's a Brazilian saying to the effect that "yellow," i.e. gold, money, "changes black into white.") According to a recent map in the NYT Sunday Travel section, this neighborhood is now Little Korea. In any case, this Madagascarene story is brand-new to me. In the 'Fifties, at least, the story was that Razaf was a full-blooded - whatever that may mean - Ethiopian, according to black publications of the day, e.g. Ebony, Sepia, Our World, etc. -Wilson Gray On Mar 30, 2005, at 10:52 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I believe that the lyrics to "Shine" were written by Andy Razaf. If > so, there is a biography of him: Black and Blue: The Life and Lyrics of > Andy Razaf, by Barry Singer; foreword by Bobby Short. New York: > Toronto & New York: Schirmer Books; Maxwell Macmillan Canada; Maxwell > Macmillan International, c1992. Razaf was the child of an black > American woman and a Madagascarene nobleman -- this sounds like a story > his public relations guy thought up after kicking the gong around, but > it is verifiable; he was raised in the U. S. There is also a > biographical sketch in the American National Biography, and I dare say > one in the Grove Dictionary of Jazz and/or the Grove Dictionary of > American Music. He wrote the lyrics to a number of Fats Waller's > songs. > > The version of Shine I know is the one Louis Armstrong made in the > 1920s. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Fitzke > Date: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:14 pm > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >> Dear Mr. Gray: >> >> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >> I'm also a >> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >> more than >> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >> big in my >> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >> listening to >> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >> thought ocurred >> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >> appears from a >> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >> compliments. >> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >> matters. Do >> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >> or if my >> impression is on or off target? >> >> Will appreciate your comments. >> >> Bob Fitzke >> > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 22:12:28 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:12:28 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: >>In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>"The Argentine." >>Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >> >>JL > >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The Gambia came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the French who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for the coast around Banjul). The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, hence Argentina/Argentine). Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in the case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz countries are masculine (patria =fatherland). More and more, I seem to hear the article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las Islas Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would be understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish thought England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was promoted to a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so merry old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' (some do use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender form nowadays. The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was named for the river or vice versa, I don't know. Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, that), and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names such as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that deserts also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:19:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:19:17 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >> AMERICAN >> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >> the OED. >> ... >> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >> (1 >> page) >> ... >> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >> in >> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >> of >> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >> have >> sold a million copies or more! >> (SEARS ad--ed.) > > Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast > from > the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka > "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: > > ----- > http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm > As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in > mid-1958, > Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier > every > day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola > scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was > the > creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and > "submarine > race watching." WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. -Wilson Gray > ----- > http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html > At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; > Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible > for > Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also > Rick > who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce > oldies > on Murray’s WINS show. > ----- > > There's a clip on of Murray the K > saying, > "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast effect> > from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a > 1961 > album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": > . > > > --Ben Zimmer > From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Wed Mar 30 22:26:12 2005 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:26:12 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr Gray can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember except that it was written from the left... Jerome Foster. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Fitzke" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:35:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:35:00 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think "The Gambia" has a similar origin. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>"The Argentine." >>Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >> >>JL > >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The Gambia came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the French who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for the coast around Banjul). The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, hence Argentina/Argentine). Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in the case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz countries are masculine (patria =fatherland). More and more, I seem to hear the article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las Islas Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would be understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish thought England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was promoted to a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so merry old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' (some do use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender form nowadays. The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was named for the river or vice versa, I don't know. Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, that), and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names such as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that deserts also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 22:41:00 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:41:00 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:42:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:42:03 -0800 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Watching the submarine races" means lounging about on a river bank, lake shore, margin of the sea, etc., engaging in amorous demonstrations while supposedly enjoying unseen competitions between underwater craft. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >> AMERICAN >> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >> the OED. >> ... >> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >> (1 >> page) >> ... >> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >> in >> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >> of >> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >> have >> sold a million copies or more! >> (SEARS ad--ed.) > > Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast > from > the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka > "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: > > ----- > http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm > As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in > mid-1958, > Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier > every > day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola > scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was > the > creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and > "submarine > race watching." WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. -Wilson Gray > ----- > http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html > At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; > Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible > for > Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also > Rick > who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce > oldies > on Murray�s WINS show. > ----- > > There's a clip on of Murray the K > saying, > "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast > effect> > from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a > 1961 > album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": > . > > > --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:43:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:43:11 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$992f1t@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Michael McKernan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: "The" Philippines > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>> "The Argentine." >>> Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >>> >>> JL >> >> and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" > > I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The > Gambia > came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once > Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks > upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the > French > who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for > the > coast around Banjul). > > The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, > hence Argentina/Argentine). > > Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country > (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in > the > case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el > Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz > countries > are masculine (patria =fatherland). "patria = fatherland" I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the random, unpredictable names of countries. -Wilson Gray > More and more, I seem to hear the > article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las > Islas > Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would > be > understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish > thought > England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was > promoted to > a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so > merry > old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' > (some do > use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender > form > nowadays. > > The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. > > I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was > named > for the river or vice versa, I don't know. > > Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, > that), > and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly > eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these > disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. > > If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers > require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names > such > as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that > deserts > also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... > > Michael McKernan > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:50:12 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:50:12 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the > original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr > Gray > can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember > except that > it was written from the left... > > Jerome Foster. "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's involvement with the CPUSA? -Mr Gray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Fitzke" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >> hearing >> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >> that >> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >> about >> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >> among >> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >> still >> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >> other >> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >> used >> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >> Louis >> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wilson Gray" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --- >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>> into >>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>> take >>>> my >>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>> Always >>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>> >>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>> >>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>> Bing >>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>> *Really* weird, if true. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>> >>>>>> VERSE >>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>> >>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> also a >>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>> more than >>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>> big >>>>>> in my >>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>> listening to >>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>> thought >>>>>> ocurred >>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>> appears >>>>>> from a >>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>> a >>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>> compliments. >>>>>> >>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>> or >>>>>> if my >>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>> >>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 22:51:27 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:51:27 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think >"The Gambia" has a similar origin. Not necessarily disagreeing with Jonathan, I believe that 'The Yukon Territory' was named for the Yukon River, because this geographic feature was at one time the principal 'gateway' or access to what became the 'Territory.' The Gambia, OTOH, was never a "territory" and geographically, it only consists of land adjacent to the Gambia River and its mouth. If you had shallow-draft gunboats, controlling the mouth of the river meant controlling the river, and the banks as far as the range of your guns. The British were willing to venture ashore a little ways, but not very far, whereas the French colonized all of the land around the river which was not controlled by the British. Let's not forget 'The Congo', which I'd suppose was named for the Congo River, and kept the definite article in at least some of its several partitions and independences. As I understand it, 'The Congo' was a European-contrived location, consisting of a large area with a variety of ethnic groups ('natives'), where each group had a name for themselves and their lands. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:58:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:58:28 -0800 Subject: flak Message-ID: This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades old : 1990 Philip H. Melling _Vietnam in American Literature_ (Boston: Twayne) 5 : If the reader is made to experience the life of the soldier, the flak he gets will come from the writer's attempt to convey the impact of the grenade and ricochet, the sudden eruption of a violent event. The primary source of this misinterpretation must be the familar "flak vest / jacket," first issued to bomber crews during WWII but widely used by infantry during and since the Vietnam War. One wonders about "ricochet" as well. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:59:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:59:35 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 23:14:03 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:14:03 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. Fritz > "patria = fatherland" I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the random, unpredictable names of countries. -Wilson Gray > More and more, I seem to hear the > article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las > Islas > Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would > be > understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish > thought > England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was > promoted to > a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so > merry > old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' > (some do > use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender > form > nowadays. > > The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. > > I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was > named > for the river or vice versa, I don't know. > > Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, > that), > and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly > eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these > disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. > > If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers > require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names > such > as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that > deserts > also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... > > Michael McKernan > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 23:15:59 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Thanks, JL. I think I hit on United States when I discussed German. >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 02:59PM >>> Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 23:23:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set > that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. "Where the blue of the night "Meets the gold of the day, "Someone waits for me." For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different platters or not. I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such justification. Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule a rule? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >> Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>> thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>> appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>> or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:51:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:51:22 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Current usage, at www.ukraine.org for example, is "Ukraine" rather than "the Ukraine." "Ukraine" is the official name of the republic. "Ukraine" itself means "border" or "frontier" in Polish and Russian; hence, presumably, the definite article in English. JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, JL. I think I hit on United States when I discussed German. >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 02:59PM >>> Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:24:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:24:43 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Everything I write appears to be written from the left as well, unless I'm doing boustrophedon. Oh, I see. Political left. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the > original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr > Gray > can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember > except that > it was written from the left... > > Jerome Foster. "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's involvement with the CPUSA? -Mr Gray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Fitzke" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >> hearing >> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >> that >> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >> about >> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >> among >> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >> still >> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >> other >> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >> used >> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >> Louis >> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wilson Gray" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --- >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>> into >>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>> take >>>> my >>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>> Always >>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>> >>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>> >>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>> Bing >>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>> *Really* weird, if true. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>> >>>>>> VERSE >>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>> >>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> also a >>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>> more than >>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>> big >>>>>> in my >>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>> listening to >>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>> thought >>>>>> ocurred >>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>> appears >>>>>> from a >>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>> a >>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>> compliments. >>>>>> >>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>> or >>>>>> if my >>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>> >>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:39:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:39:54 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: To fine-tune this discussion further, the presence of the definite article in place names like "the Yukon," "the Gambia," "the Congo," and perhaps "the Argentine," suggests to me that a nominal final - e.g., "colony" or "territory" - has been elided. This is certainly true of "the Shenandoah," meaning "the Shenandoah Valley." (Noteworthy: I've never noticed the Hudson Valley referred to as "the Hudson" or the Tennessee Valley as "the Tennessee." "The Argentine" may well shorten "the Argentine Republic." The result in each case is describable as a metonym, though the metonymy strikes me as accidental Similarly, "the _Beowulf_" may abbreviate "the Beowulf poem." JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think >"The Gambia" has a similar origin. Not necessarily disagreeing with Jonathan, I believe that 'The Yukon Territory' was named for the Yukon River, because this geographic feature was at one time the principal 'gateway' or access to what became the 'Territory.' The Gambia, OTOH, was never a "territory" and geographically, it only consists of land adjacent to the Gambia River and its mouth. If you had shallow-draft gunboats, controlling the mouth of the river meant controlling the river, and the banks as far as the range of your guns. The British were willing to venture ashore a little ways, but not very far, whereas the French colonized all of the land around the river which was not controlled by the British. Let's not forget 'The Congo', which I'd suppose was named for the Congo River, and kept the definite article in at least some of its several partitions and independences. As I understand it, 'The Congo' was a European-contrived location, consisting of a large area with a variety of ethnic groups ('natives'), where each group had a name for themselves and their lands. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 23:41:53 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:41:53 -0500 Subject: flak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: flak > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades > old : > > 1990 Philip H. Melling _Vietnam in American Literature_ (Boston: > Twayne) 5 : If the reader is made to experience the life of the > soldier, the flak he gets will come from the writer's attempt to > convey the impact of the grenade and ricochet, the sudden eruption of > a violent event. > > The primary source of this misinterpretation must be the familar "flak > vest / jacket," first issued to bomber crews during WWII but widely > used by infantry during and since the Vietnam War. > > One wonders about "ricochet" as well. > > JL > Is this Twayne the same Twayne that was a pioneer in publishing sf/stf - are you old enough to remember the battles between the sf'ers (science-fictioners) and the stf'ers (scientifictioners) - in hard-cover? -Wilson > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:54:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:52 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: I learned the "or not" "rule" as a stylistic recommendation rather than a prescriptive grammatical pronouncement. It might have been in one of Theodore Bernstein's books back in the mid '60s. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set > that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. "Where the blue of the night "Meets the gold of the day, "Someone waits for me." For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different platters or not. I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such justification. Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule a rule? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >> Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>> thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>> appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>> or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 31 00:04:09 2005 From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:04:09 +0000 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 31 00:15:00 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:15:00 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit Message-ID: Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Mar 31 01:17:12 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:17:12 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <200503302213.j2UMDAxA018836@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Michael McKernan wrote: > I don't know about The Hague The Dutch name is "'s-Gravenhage", or "Den Haag" for short; literally something like "the Count's Hedge" (i.e., the woods surrounding the principal residence of the Count of Holland). Is there a term for the act of turning a definite (but common) noun phrase into a proper noun? Jim Parish From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 31 01:18:24 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:18:24 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... I believe that they should be capitalized always, also, as in "The >Netherlands" and "The Philippines". I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, but I don't believe that it is usual to routinely capitalize "the" in these names. Neither nation's government uses capitalized "the" routinely in its name at its official English-language Web-site: they say respectively <> and << Welcome to the Netherlands>> for example. Of course "the" is capitalized if it is at the beginning of a sentence. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 01:29:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <424AFB38.14839.2C30768A@localhost> Message-ID: At 7:17 PM -0600 3/30/05, Jim Parish wrote: >Michael McKernan wrote: >> I don't know about The Hague > >The Dutch name is "'s-Gravenhage", or "Den Haag" for short; literally >something like "the Count's Hedge" (i.e., the woods surrounding the >principal residence of the Count of Holland). Is there a term for the act >of turning a definite (but common) noun phrase into a proper noun? > >Jim Parish Strawson (1952, IIRC) describes such phrases "growing capital letters"; his example was either "the Bank of England" or "the Church of England", I forget which. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 31 01:52:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:52:46 -0800 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That is certainly the earliest I know of. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: colder than a witch's tit ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 31 01:52:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:52:47 -0800 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That is certainly the earliest I know of. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: colder than a witch's tit ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 02:36:08 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:08 -0500 Subject: "Never went to Yale" (1947); Blast from the Past Message-ID: July 1947, Utah (later, Western) Humanities Reveiw, vol. 1, no. 3 Margeurite Ivins Wilson: _Yours Till--: A Study of Children's Autograph Rhymes in Utah_ Pg. 246: I never went to college, I never went to Yale, But I spent my life a-living In the Salt Lake City jail. Yours till Bear Lake has cubs. Pg. 248: Yours till bobby pins get seasick from sitting on too many permanent waves. Yours till butter flies. Yours till table legs wear stockings. Yours till the kitchen sinks. Yours till the sun sets dishes on your table. Pg. 249: Rain on the roof, Reminds me of you, Drip, drip, drip. I copied your papers, And I flunked too. Pg. 250: Roses are red, Violets are blue, But I think It's a little P.U. When you are married and have some twins, Call on me for some safety pins. Pg. 252: When you get old, And think you're sweet, Take off your shoes, And smell your feet. Pg. 253: As sure as the grass grows around the stump, You are my darling sugar plum; As sure as the rat runs across the rafter, I hope you get the boy you're after. Cows like cabbage, Pigs like squash, I like you, I do, by gosh. I love you big, I love you mighty, I wish my pajamas, Were close to your nighty. Pg. 254: Now don't get excited, And out of your head, I mean on the clothesline, And not in the bed. Pg. 255: I hope you sit on a tack of success and rise rapidly. Pg. 256: First comes love, Then comes marriage, Then comes Jane With a baby carriage. Pg. 257: Don't go to London, Don't go to France; Stay here in Utah, And give the boys a chance. Butter is butter, Cheese is cheese, What's a kiss, Without a squeeze? Pg. 258: The higher the mountain, The cooler the breeze; The younger the couple, The tighter the squeeze. Poor ink, Poor pen, Can't think, Amen. I'm not a Southern beauty, I'm not an Eastern rose, I'm just a little Western girl, With freckles on her nose. O U Q T, I N V U. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLAST FROM THE PAST I was away from OCLC WorldCat. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title:Do the mashed potatoes. Part 1 ; Do the mashed potatoes. Part 2 Author(s):Kendrick, Nat. (Performer - prf); Coleman, King. ; (Performer - prf) Corp Author(s):Swans (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf) Publication:[S.l.] :; Dade Records, Year:1959-1960? Description:1 sound disc (4 min.) :; analog, 45 rpm, mono. ;; 7 in. Language:English Music Type:Popular music Standard No:Publisher: 1804; Dade Contents:(Do the) Mashed potatoes (Part 1) / Rozier (1:55) -- (Do the) Mashed potatoes (Part 2) / Rozier (1:50) SUBJECT(S) Descriptor:Blues (Music) -- 1951-1960. Popular music -- 1951-1960. Note(s):Released on Chess LP-1461 "Murray The K's Blasts From The Past."/ Participants: "King" Coleman, vocalist. Other Titles:Mashed potatoes. Responsibility:Nat Kendrick and The Swans. Material Type:Musical recording (msr); 45 rpm (45s) Document Type:Sound Recording (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title:Murray the K's blasts from the past Author(s):Berry, Chuck. ; (Performer - prf); Lester, Bobby. ; (Performer - prf); Bo Diddley,; 1928- ; (Performer - prf); Kendrick, Nat. ; (Performer - prf); Valens, Ritchie,; 1941-1959. ; (Performer - prf) Corp Author(s):Chantels (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Moonglows (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Flamingos (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Swans (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Fiests (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Orchids (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Moonlighters (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Pastels (Jazz vocal group) ; (Performer - prf) Publication:Chicago :; Chess, Year:1961 Description:1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ;; 12 in. Language:English Music Type:Popular music Standard No:Publisher: LP-1461; Chess Contents:He's gone (The Chantels) -- Sweet little sixteen (Chuck Berry) -- Blue Velvet (Bobby Lester and the Moonglows) -- Bo Diddley (Bo Diddley) -- The vow (The Flamingos) -- Mashed potatoes (Nat Kendrick & the Swans) -- So fine (The Fiestas) -- You're everything to me (The Orchids) -- La bamba (Richie Valens) -- We go together (The Moonglows) -- Sho doo-be doo (i.e. Shoo be-doo be) (The Moonlighters) -- Been so long (The Pastels). SUBJECT(S) Descriptor:Rhythm and blues music. Note(s):Rhythm and blues songs; various artists./ All songs previously released. Other Titles:He's gone.; Sweet little sixteen.; Blue Velvet.; Bo Diddley.; Vow.; Mashed potatoes.; So fine.; You're everything to me.; Bamba.; We go together.; Shoo be-doo be.; Been so long. Material Type:Musical recording (msr); LP recording (lps) Document Type:Sound Recording From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Mar 31 02:41:57 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:41:57 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country > > (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in > > the > > case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el > > Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz > > countries > > are masculine (patria =fatherland). > > "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray And there is the Russian "motherland" and the English "mother country." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Mar 31 02:45:47 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:45:47 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050330195712.02fed0a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > >... I believe that they should be capitalized always, also, as in "The > >Netherlands" and "The Philippines". > > I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, but I don't believe that it > is usual to routinely capitalize "the" in these names. > > Neither nation's government uses capitalized "the" routinely in > its name at > its official English-language Web-site: they say respectively < Philippines>> and << Welcome to the Netherlands>> for example. > > Of course "the" is capitalized if it is at the beginning of a sentence. The US State Department does not capitalize these or other articles in country names, with exceptions of "The Bahamas" and "The Gambia." Diplomats tend to be sticklers about matters or protocol like this; http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 02:44:44 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:44:44 -0500 Subject: "Lowells speak only to God" (Harvard & Yale versions, 1918) Message-ID: SUCH NONSENSE! An anthology by Carolyn Wells New York: George H. Doran Company 1918 Pg. 215: There once was a man from Nantucket, Who kept all his cash in a bucket, But his daughter, named Nan, Ran away with a man, And as for the bucket, Nantucket. PRINCETON TIGER (Other version follow--ed.) Pg. 219: ON THE ARISTOCRACY OF HARVARD I come from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod; Where the Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells speak only to God! DR. SAMUEL G. BUSHNELL. ON THE DEMOCRACY OF YALE Here's to the town of New Haven, The home of the truth and the light; Where God speaks to Jones in the very same tones, That he uses with Hadley and Dwight! DEAN JONES. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 02:55:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:55:36 -0500 Subject: hair band In-Reply-To: <200503301515.j2UFFpjK026645@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair > bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... > > St. Petersburg Times, June 17, 1991, p. 1D > Are hard rockers going soft, wimping out? Nah. Don't expect crunching > power chords to vanish any time this millennium. But the better groups are > breaking from the pack, looking to expand the perception of what a > pop-metal "hair band" can do, plumbing new dynamics for the style. A search on Westlaw takes it back to 1988, and suggests that "big-hair band" may well have been an earlier variant. I haven't checked Nexis, but I assume Nexis also has hits back to 1988 or earlier for this term. 1988 _Philadelphia Inquirer_ 18 Sept. D1 (Westlaw) Rock-and-roll fans will remember the summer of '88 for the proliferation of big-hair bands on the road. David Lee Roth. Motley Crue. Aerosmith. Guns 'N' Roses. Def Leppard. 1988 _Albany Times Union_ 4 Oct. [article beginning at page C4] (Westlaw) Brytny Fox's first single "Long Way to Love" broke into the Top 100. The Pennsylvania "hair band," who opened for Poison Tuesday night at the Glens Falls Civic Center, also continued to chart with its first album. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:05:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:05:47 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 2:32 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > I think it depends upon whether one has a more-or-less-emotional attachment to an institution that had, until he retired, the winningest coach in the history of Division II football and that, just a couple of years ago, became the winningest school in the history of Division II football, overtaking and surpassing the record formerly held by the vaunted gridiron minions of mighty West Chester (PA) State University. BTW, Davis is just a relatively few miles west along I-80 from Reno, Nevada, "The Biggest Little City in The World." -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:14:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:14:13 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Watching the submarine races" means lounging about on a river bank, > lake shore, margin of the sea, etc., engaging in amorous > demonstrations while supposedly enjoying unseen competitions between > underwater craft. > > JL > Thanks, Jon. I sorta kinda figured something like doing the same thing at a drive-in movie. But these lost-virginity locations were already ancient history by the '70's. -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >>> AMERICAN >>> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >>> the OED. >>> ... >>> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >>> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >>> (1 >>> page) >>> ... >>> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >>> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >>> in >>> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >>> of >>> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >>> have >>> sold a million copies or more! >>> (SEARS ad--ed.) >> >> Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast >> from >> the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka >> "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick >> Sklar: >> >> ----- >> http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm >> As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in >> mid-1958, >> Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier >> every >> day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola >> scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was >> the >> creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and >> "submarine >> race watching." > > WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other > "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. > Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race > [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had > come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were > unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the > Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint > as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior > knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. > > -Wilson Gray > >> ----- >> http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html >> At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; >> Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible >> for >> Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also >> Rick >> who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce >> oldies >> on Murray’s WINS show. >> ----- >> >> There's a clip on of Murray the K >> saying, >> "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast > effect> >> from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a >> 1961 >> album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": >> . >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. > From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Thu Mar 31 03:22:18 2005 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:22:18 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Sorry about that "ballard". It was just a typo for "ballad." As for "from the left"...yes I meant that both Robeson and Earl Robinson, the composer of the piece, were both blacklisted and otherwise punished for their left connections during the McCarthy period. Jerome Foster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jerome Foster >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the >> original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr >> Gray >> can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember >> except that >> it was written from the left... >> >> Jerome Foster. > > "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's > involvement with the CPUSA? > > -Mr Gray > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Fitzke" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --------- >>> >>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>> hearing >>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >>> that >>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>> about >>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>> among >>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>> still >>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>> other >>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >>> used >>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >>> Louis >>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>> >>> Bob >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>>> into >>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>>> take >>>>> my >>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>>> Always >>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>> >>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>> >>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>>> Bing >>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> also a >>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>>> more than >>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> in my >>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>> thought >>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>> appears >>>>>>> from a >>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> if my >>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 03:44:04 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:44:04 -0500 Subject: American Mother Goose (1940); Life like a snowflake (1947) Message-ID: LIFE LIKE A SNOWFLAKE I forgot to include this one. There are a few Google hits. July 1947, Utah Humanities Review, pg. 255: May your life be like a snowflake, Leave a mark, not a stain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE AMERICAN MOTHER GOOSE by Ray Wood forward by John A. Lomax New York: Frederick A, Stokes Company 1940 Pg. 3: How much wood would a wood-chuck chuck If a wood-chuck could chuck wood? He would chuck as much wood as a wood-chuck would chuck, If a wood-chuck could chuck wood. Pg. 5: Fishy-fishy in the brook Daddy caught him with a hook; Mammy fried him in the pan And baby ate him like a man. Pg. 7: Mother may I go out to swim? Yes, my darling daughter, But hang your clothes on a hickory limb And don't go near the water. Pg. 12: There was an owl lived in an oak The more he heard the less he spoke; The less he spoke the more he heard-- Good children should be like that bird. Pg. 16: Bat, bat, come under my hat And I'll give you a slice of bacon, And when I bake, I'll give you a cake, If I am not mistaken. Pg. 17: Good-night Sleep tight Don't let the mosquitoes bits. Pg. 22: I know something I won't tell, Three little niggers in a peanut shell, One can read and one can write And one can smoke his daddy's pipe. Pg. 28: Cry-Baby, cry, Take your little shirt-tail And wipe your little eye And go tell your mammy To give you a pie of pie. Pg. 44: Left foot, right foot, Any foot at all, Sally lost her petticoat A-goin' to the ball. Pg. 46: Chicken in the bread-pan, Pickin' up the dough; Granny will your dog bite? No, child, no. Pg. 59: I'll eat when I'm hungry And drink when I'm dry. If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live 'till I die. Pg. 62: Tommy was a man of law, He sold his bed to lie on straw; He sold the straw to lie on grass, To buy his wife a looking glass. Pg. 68: Had a little dog, his name was Rover, When he died he died all over, All but his tail and it turned over Over and over and ten times over. Pg. 73: Hound dog in the dinner pot, Lick, lick, lick, Chicken in the bread tray, Pick, pick, pick. Pg. 74: Had a little dog He had no sense, Ran under the house And barked at the fence. Pg. 76: When I am president of these United States I'll eat molasses candy and swing on all the gates. Pg. 78: (Post Office) P with a little o, S with a t, O double f, And i-c-e- Pg. 80: Doodle-bug, doodle-bug, Home you must fly Your house is on fire And your children will die. Pg. 82: Barley-corn, barley-corn, Injun-meal shorts, Spunk-water, spunk-water, swaller these warts. Pg. 84: God made man and man made money, God made bees and bees made honey, God made the hog and the hog made meat, Good hog and hominy is hard to beat. Pg. 86 (Riddles): Eyes it has yet cannot see, Tongue, but cannot speak to me; And although it's well-behaved Has a sole that can't be saved. (A shoe.) Pg. 87: In summer it dies, In winter it grows, Its roots above, It's head below. (An icicle.) Pg. 90: Runs all day and never walks, Ofter murmurs, never talks. It has a bed but never sleeps, It has a mouth, but never eats. (A river.) Pg. 92: Adam and Eve and Pinch-me-tight. Went over the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve came back before night, Now who was left to see the fight? Pg. 106: Round as a biscuit, Busy as a bee, Prettiest little thing You ever did see. Pg. 108: This is mother's looking glass And this is baby's cradle. Pg. 109: These are mother's knives and forks. THis is mother's table. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:46:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:46:52 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, it is. -Wilson On Mar 30, 2005, at 6:14 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: "The" Philippines > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. > Fritz >> "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray > >> More and more, I seem to hear the >> article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las >> Islas >> Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would >> be >> understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish >> thought >> England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was >> promoted to >> a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so >> merry >> old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' >> (some do >> use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender >> form >> nowadays. >> >> The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. >> >> I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was >> named >> for the river or vice versa, I don't know. >> >> Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, >> that), >> and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though >> hardly >> eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, >> these >> disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. >> >> If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers >> require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names >> such >> as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that >> deserts >> also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... >> >> Michael McKernan >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 04:05:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:05:46 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As fate would have it, I have many friends who use the pronunciation "ballard," though they use the spelling "ballad." That's why it caught my attention. I used to pronounce "God" as "guard," myself. But I managed to kick the habit while still in primary school. -Wilson Gray On Mar 30, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry about that "ballard". It was just a typo for "ballad." > As for "from the left"...yes I meant that both Robeson and Earl > Robinson, > the composer of the piece, were both blacklisted and otherwise > punished for > their left connections during the McCarthy period. > > Jerome Foster > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jerome Foster >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though >>> the >>> original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr >>> Gray >>> can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember >>> except that >>> it was written from the left... >>> >>> Jerome Foster. >> >> "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's >> involvement with the CPUSA? >> >> -Mr Gray >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Robert Fitzke" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail >>>> header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> >>>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>>> hearing >>>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc >>>> set >>>> that >>>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>>> about >>>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>>> among >>>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>>> still >>>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>>> other >>>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single >>>> digits. I >>>> used >>>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff >>>> with >>>> Louis >>>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized >>>> the >>>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> -- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning >>>>>> lemons >>>>>> into >>>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>>>> take >>>>>> my >>>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always >>>>>> handy, >>>>>> Always >>>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>>> >>>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can >>>>> find >>>>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>>>> Bing >>>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not >>>>> true. >>>>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> also a >>>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> more than >>>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>> in my >>>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>>> appears >>>>>>>> from a >>>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has >>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this >>>>>>>> song >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> if my >>>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 04:17:33 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:17:33 -0500 Subject: hair band In-Reply-To: <200503300658.1dgEEQ5nk3NZFmR0@bunting.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 6:58 AM -0800 3/30/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : >Pantera...had the image of a "hair band" but their music was still >much heavier than the typical glam stuff. > >Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and >carefully styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. Gee, you speak of the '80s as if they were in the Paleozoic? Am I THAT old, golly! Of course, that last criteria, the harmony, is of a dubious nature, depending on the band. If it were the 50's I could see a Chuck Jones riff on this called "Hare Banned". HAH! Bugs channels the Oz while Fudd belts "Kill the Wabbit" (a well-known stand-up bit IS heavy-metal Elmer) Lest y'all think it's hair today, gone tom..., er hair yesterday, gone today; any pop culturologist (or just any snot-nosed kid) KNOWS, that two of the leading (though, not MY personal choices) candidates on this season's "American Idol" are refugees from hair bands. So the genre is thriving, even WITH the onslaught of rap, grunge, thrash, house, trip-hop and all the current groovy vibes. I can't jive at 55, Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Mar 31 03:21:58 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:21:58 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Blackpowder era manufacturer of single shot cartridge rifles. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" "'Ballard'"? Is "... From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 31 05:07:18 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:07:18 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Because, of course, 'Land' is neuter. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:14 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > > In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. > Fritz > > "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between > grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 05:38:53 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:38:53 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) Message-ID: NEGRO FOLK RHYMES Wise and Otherwise with a study by Thomas W. Talley New York: The MacMillan COmpany 1922 Pg. 10: STAND BACK< BLACK MAN Oh! STAN' back, black man, You cain't shine; Yo' lips is too thick, An' you hain't my kin'. Pg. 63: DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS DON'T ax me no questions, An' I won't tell you no lies; But bring me dem apples, An' I'll make you some pies. Pg. 113: DOES MONEY TALK? DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. If it tak lak dey tell, Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, It up an' say: "Farewell!" Pg. 114: I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY I'LL eat when I's hungry An' I'll drink when I'se dry; An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, I'll live till I die. In my liddle log cabin, Ever since I'se been born; Dere hain't been no nothin' 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. But I knows what's a henhouse, An' de tucky he charve; An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, I cain't never starve. Pg. 153: HERE I STAND HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. Here I stan' on two liddle chips, Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. Pg. 159: ASPIRATION IF I wus de President Of dese United States, I'd eat good 'lasses candy, An' swing on all de gates. Pg. 163: THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... Pg. 171: DEEDLE, DUMPLING DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! He went to bed wid his dirty feet. Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! Pg. 186: DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, Don't sing 'fore you eat, Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, You'll cry 'fore you sleep. Pg. 207: LEARN TO COUNT NAUGHT'S a naught, Five's a figger. All fer de white man. None fer de Nigger. Ten's a ten, But it's mighty funny; When you cain't count good, You hain't got no money. Pg. 209: INDEPENDENCE I'SE jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. Pg. 211: DRINKING RAZOR SOUP HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, Dough he talk so big an' smart. Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. Pg. 244: "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, It's made in de shade, It's stirred wid a spade. Come buy my col' ice lemonade. It's made in de shade An sol' in de sun. Ef you hain't got no money, You cain't git none. One glass fer a nickel, An' two fer a dime, Ef you hain't got de chink, You cain't git mine. Come right way, Fer it sho' will pay To git candy fer de ladies An' cakes fer de babies." From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 06:16:28 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:16:28 -0500 Subject: Oakland Tribune (1960-1975) Re: San Francisco University High School Slang In-Reply-To: <9e350b5364aa2c1ba9f53b74e0c37c87@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has recently announced the Oakland Tribune (1960-75). I haven't seen it there yet. We have almost no coverage of Oakland/San Francisco in the 20th century. Newspaperarchive has also announced a Texas newspaper, which will also be very welcome: Cool Content What's New: This is exciting - among the new releases to our site in recent days are issues of the Oakland (CA) Tribune from 1960 and 1975. Previously, the only Oakland- or San Francisco-generated, Bay-area pages available to subscribers were of the pre-20th century variety. Also, the Fitchburg (MA) Sentinel, particularly well-represented from the years 1868-1935, has been updated to include images from 1933. Finally, NewspaperARCHIVE.com has received confirmation that the pages on our site are being searched by Yahoo.com. That means our content can now be located by anyone using this powerful vehicle to search the Internet for historic newspaper images! So, check it out! What's Next: The NewspaperARCHIVE.com lineup will once again expand in the near future when content from a publication in Victoria, TX is introduced. Located near Texas' Gulf Coast, Victoria is about halfway between San Antonio and Houston. Additionally, our archives will add new pages from Oakland and Fitchburg, as well as Syracuse, NY, Annapolis, MD and Doylestown, PA. For more updates, count on this space to let you know each week! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 06:19:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:19:24 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil Mack, and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. -Wilson Gray From dacolb at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 31 06:53:22 2005 From: dacolb at GMAIL.COM (David Colburn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:53:22 -0800 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: <4249c339.00222254.2d1b.1991SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on > >campus, I'll try to be in my office." > > > I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had > things like that make it into print. > > It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to > editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase > without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden > days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such > glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something that I'm missing this pm. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 06:53:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:53:39 -0500 Subject: Dope questions Message-ID: As Free-Wheelin' Franklin has pointed out, "Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope." Some ways to ask, when the need arises: "Do you (want to) smoke marijuana/have some marijuana to sell?" Are you down with that shit? Do you turn on? Do you get high? Are you okay with that shit? Do you get fucked up? Do you go for that shit? Do you get down with that shit? -Wilson Gray From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Mar 31 13:07:01 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:07:01 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: The Bronx is supposedly a way to refer to the family whose farm was north of Manhattan--the Bronck's farm. Barry, is it a myth? After independence, Ukraine dropped the "the" From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 14:08:42 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:08:42 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit Message-ID: In southern Illinois during the 1950s we used to say colder than a witch's tit in a brass brassiere or alternatively colder than a well digger's asshole. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: colder than a witch's tit > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: colder than a witch's tit > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? > > Thanks, > > Sam Clements From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 14:22:05 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:22:05 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Ballad For Americans was written by Earl Robinson whom I met many years ago. He was a leftist composer, and his most famous song was "I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night" which goes: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Alive as you or me Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead," "I never died," says he "I never died," says he "In Salt Lake, Joe," says I to him, Him standing by my bed, "They framed you on a murder charge," Says Joe, "But I ain't dead," Says Joe, "But I ain't dead." "The copper bosses killed you, Joe, They shot you, Joe," says I. "Takes more than guns to kill a man," Says Joe, "I didn't die," Says Joe, "I didn't die." And standing there as big as life And smiling with his eyes Joe says, "What they forgot to kill Went on to organize, Went on to organize." "Joe Hill ain't dead," he says to me, "Joe Hill ain't never died. Where working men are out on strike Joe Hill is at their side, Joe Hill is at their side." "From San Diego up to Maine, In every mine and mill, Where workers strike and organize," Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill," Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill." I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Alive as you or me Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead," "I never died," says he "I never died," says he Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:24 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Everything I write appears to be written from the left as well, unless I'm > doing boustrophedon. > > Oh, I see. Political left. > > JL > .com From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 31 14:35:08 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:35:08 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: <01b601c535fb$254046c0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: In Southern Illinois in the 40's we said (full forms) Colder'n a witch's tit in a brass bra on a frosty Halloween and Colder'n a well-digger's ass in the Klondike dInIs >In southern Illinois during the 1950s we used to say colder than a witch's >tit in a brass brassiere or alternatively colder than a well digger's >asshole. > >Page Stephens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sam Clements" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:15 PM >Subject: colder than a witch's tit > >>---------------------- Information from the mail >>header ----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Sam Clements >>Subject: colder than a witch's tit >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Sam Clements -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:33:54 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:33:54 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: Mack and Brown I don't recognize, off-hand. Ford Dabney was associated with James Reese Europe and the Clef Club. He would have written the music. I see from NYTimes on Proquest that Mack lead the choir for an all-black musical in 1930, with Eubie Blake's orchestra and Ethel Waters, &c. Brown was associated with George White and other Broadway producers as a writer, so he probably wrote the lyrics and was no doubt a white man. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:19 am Subject: "Shine" > The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil > Mack,and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. > > -Wilson Gray > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:46:39 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:46:39 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: At the least the date 1924 is wrong. Crosby first came to some prominence in 1926 as a member of a singing group with the Pual Whiteman orchestra. The eldest (or second eldest) of the Mills brothers was born in 1912. One of the four brothers died young, in the mid 30s, and was replaced by their father. Those of us who remember seeing the Mills Brothers on television or wherever are old codgers, but anyone who remembers them when they were really the four brothers is a danged old codger. This information is from the Grove Dictionary of American Music. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:23 pm Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Robert Fitzke > > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > -------- > > > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > > hearing > > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 > disc set > > that > > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > > about > > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > > among > > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > > still > > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > > other > > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single > digits. I > > used > > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some > stuff with > > Louis > > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he > recognized the > > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > > > Bob > > That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is > just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in > Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in > English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like > BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of > the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. > > "Where the blue of the night > "Meets the gold of the day, > "Someone waits for me." > > For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. > However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song > was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit > A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that > we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different > platters or not. > > I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is > not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is > redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such > justification.Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule > a rule? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Wilson Gray" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > > > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke > >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > >>> -- > >>> -------- > >>> > >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning > lemons>>> into > >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to > "Always take > >>> my > >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always > handy,>>> Always > >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." > >>> > >>> Did you get anything about the author? > >>> > >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can > find>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way > back when, > >> Bing > >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills > >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers > >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not > true.>> *Really* weird, if true. > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Wilson Gray" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM > >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" > >>>>> > >>>>> VERSE > >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > >>>>> But I don't care a bit. > >>>>> Here's how I figure it: > >>>>> > >>>>> CHORUS > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, > >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, > >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, > >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. > >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > >>>>> Just because my color's shady, > >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. > >>>>> That is why they call me shine. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>>>> ----------------------- > >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke > >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > >>>>> -- > >>>>> -- > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS > lurker. I'm > >>>>> also a > >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with > something>>>>> more than > >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits > (he was > >>>>> big > >>>>> in my > >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > >>>>> listening to > >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The > >>>>> thought > >>>>> ocurred > >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it > >>>>> appears > >>>>> from a > >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has > taken a > >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > >>>>> compliments. > >>>>> > >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > >>>>> matters. Do > >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this > song>>>>> or > >>>>> if my > >>>>> impression is on or off target? > >>>>> > >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Fitzke > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:56:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:56:01 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:53 PM -0800 3/30/05, David Colburn wrote: > > >> >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on >> >campus, I'll try to be in my office." >> >> >> I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had >> things like that make it into print. >> >> It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to >> editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase >> without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden >> days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such >> glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. > >I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll >take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something >that I'm missing this pm. I'm assuming it's the garden path initiated by taking "that *am* to..." to involve a copula rather than the same sans-dot initialism you use in your message. I could be wrong, but I think this involves the isograph between those who insist on "a.m."/"p.m." and those who count on context to disambiguate "am". L From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 16:13:50 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: Some times computer programs give interesting results. A few years ago The New Scientist reported that a voice recognition program interpreted the word diarrhea as dire rear. Makes sense to me. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: proof-reading fun > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: proof-reading fun > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:53 PM -0800 3/30/05, David Colburn wrote: >> > >>> >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on >>> >campus, I'll try to be in my office." >>> >>> >>> I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have >>> actually had >>> things like that make it into print. >>> >>> It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to >>> editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of >>> phrase >>> without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the >>> olden >>> days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, >>> such >>> glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. >> >>I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll >>take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something >>that I'm missing this pm. > > I'm assuming it's the garden path initiated by taking "that *am* > to..." to involve a copula rather than the same sans-dot initialism > you use in your message. I could be wrong, but I think this involves > the isograph between those who insist on "a.m."/"p.m." and those who > count on context to disambiguate "am". > > L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 16:19:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: <000801c5360c$a631dbc0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0500 3/31/05, Page Stephens wrote: >Some times computer programs give interesting results. > >A few years ago The New Scientist reported that a voice recognition program >interpreted the word diarrhea as dire rear. > >Makes sense to me. That's a frequently reported eggcorn as well. In fact, one might expect errors in voice recognition to track eggcorns fairly well. Larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 16:29:12 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:29:12 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: Last year I was on a jury with a Black friend of mine, and if you know anything about jury duty you have to spend seemingly endless hours in the jury room waiting for something to happen so Joe began to tell Shine jokes to the rest of us. Not being shy I replied to him by telling hillbilly jokes and by the time our jury duty was over we had gotten to the point where someone or other suggested that we go out on the comedy circuit as Shine and the Hillbilly. We never did it but it was a lot of fun while it lasted. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: Re: "Shine" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: "Shine" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mack and Brown I don't recognize, off-hand. Ford Dabney was associated > with James Reese Europe and the Clef Club. He would have written the > music. I see from NYTimes on Proquest that Mack lead the choir for an > all-black musical in 1930, with Eubie Blake's orchestra and Ethel > Waters, &c. Brown was associated with George White and other Broadway > producers as a writer, so he probably wrote the lyrics and was no doubt > a white man. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:19 am > Subject: "Shine" > >> The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil >> Mack,and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 19:24:18 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:24:18 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20proof-reading=20fun?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/31/05 2:00:52 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > That's a frequently reported eggcorn as well.  In fact, one might > expect errors in voice recognition to track eggcorns fairly well. > > Larry > The difference being that there has to be some kind of semantic relationship between the target and the misperceptioon to make the eggcorn work reasonably well, right? Whereas misperceptions in speech (NOT the same thing as "errors in voice recognition," by the way!!!!) can jump entirely off the semantic track (e.g., "I always used to rather enjoy the big floppy disks" perceived as " ... dicks"). From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 31 20:26:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:26:04 -0500 Subject: cush(t)y-mush(t)y Message-ID: Spotted in King Kaufman's sports column for Salon.com: ----- http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/kaufman/2005/03/31/thursday/index1.html I'll do what I did two years ago and take a flyer on the Cubs, though it's less of a flyer this time. ... But it wouldn't be a flyer if everything looked all cushty-mushty, would it? ----- I've seen "cushty" ('good, fine') in UK contexts -- OED says it's from Romani _kushto_/_kushti_, perhaps influenced by "cushy" (which is of Anglo-Indian origin, from Hindi _khush_ 'pleasure'). Kaufman has apparently borrowed the reduplicated "cushty-mushty" from Monty Python's Terry Gilliam, since Gilliam used it in an interview Kaufman did in 2001: ----- http://dir.salon.com/people/feature/2001/06/16/horse_int/index.html [Kaufman:] What have you been up to since "Holy Grail"? [Gilliam:] Well, I don't mind telling you, it hasn't all been cushty mushty, old friend. ----- No Googlehits aside from Kaufman and Gilliam, but there are some examples of "cushy-mushy" (doesn't seem to be geographically localized): ----- http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Bike_hardtail/product_19644.shtml Don't buy this bike if you are looking for a cushy-mushy ride. ----- http://www.starwatch.co.za/gemini.htm Home and family From January to end-September, home life hits a cushy-mushy peak, filled with love, bliss and generally good vibes. ----- http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003520&channel=gulberg Maybe we should call the bluff now and see things from what they really are rather than from the prism of "inter-faith" cushy-mushy glasses. ----- http://sonicrampage.com/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&artid=20&Itemid=3 I would love to say "Yeah, it was all pre-planned and everything was just cushy mushy." ----- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.juggling/msg/74859bc75a68be85 Better grip, and that tiny bit of padding from the foam that makes everything feel all cushymushy. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 20:36:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:36:35 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Across the alley from the Alamo "Where (or "When"?) the summer sun decides to settle low "A fly sings an Indian 'hi-de-ho' "To the people passing by." I remember my late stepfather pointing out that dad had joined the group after the death of one of the brothers. In those days, "the aptly-named," according to a source that I've now forgotten - Downbeat? New Yorker? Saturday Review? - Paul Whiteman, "The King of Jazz?/Swing?" had his own TV show. No wonder that TV was called "a vast wasteland"! -Wilson Gray On Mar 31, 2005, at 10:46 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At the least the date 1924 is wrong. Crosby first came to some > prominence in 1926 as a member of a singing group with the Pual > Whiteman orchestra. The eldest (or second eldest) of the Mills > brothers was born in 1912. One of the four brothers died young, in the > mid 30s, and was replaced by their father. Those of us who remember > seeing the Mills Brothers on television or wherever are old codgers, > but anyone who remembers them when they were really the four brothers > is a danged old codger. > This information is from the Grove Dictionary of American Music. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:23 pm > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >> On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>> -------- >>> >>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>> hearing >>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 >> disc set >>> that >>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>> about >>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>> among >>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>> still >>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>> other >>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single >> digits. I >>> used >>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some >> stuff with >>> Louis >>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he >> recognized the >>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>> >>> Bob >> >> That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is >> just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in >> Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in >> English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like >> BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of >> the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. >> >> "Where the blue of the night >> "Meets the gold of the day, >> "Someone waits for me." >> >> For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. >> However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song >> was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit >> A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that >> we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different >> platters or not. >> >> I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is >> not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is >> redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such >> justification.Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule >> a rule? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning >> lemons>>> into >>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to >> "Always take >>>>> my >>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always >> handy,>>> Always >>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>> >>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>> >>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can >> find>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way >> back when, >>>> Bing >>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not >> true.>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS >> lurker. I'm >>>>>>> also a >>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with >> something>>>>> more than >>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits >> (he was >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> in my >>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>> thought >>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>> appears >>>>>>> from a >>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has >> taken a >>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this >> song>>>>> or >>>>>>> if my >>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 21:15:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:15:22 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:38 AM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > NEGRO FOLK RHYMES > Wise and Otherwise > with a study > by Thomas W. Talley > New York: The MacMillan COmpany > 1922 > > Pg. 10: > STAND BACK< BLACK MAN > Oh! > STAN' back, black man, > You cain't shine; > Yo' lips is too thick, > An' you hain't my kin'. > > Pg. 63: > DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS > DON'T ax me no questions, > An' I won't tell you no lies; > But bring me dem apples, > An' I'll make you some pies. > > Pg. 113: > DOES MONEY TALK? > DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. > If it tak lak dey tell, > Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, > It up an' say: "Farewell!" > > Pg. 114: > I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY > I'LL eat when I's hungry > An' I'll drink when I'se dry; > An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, > I'll live till I die. > > In my liddle log cabin, > Ever since I'se been born; > Dere hain't been no nothin' > 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. > > But I knows what's a henhouse, > An' de tucky he charve; > An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, > I cain't never starve. > > Pg. 153: > HERE I STAND > HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; > If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. > > Here I stan' on two liddle chips, > Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. > > Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; > I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. > > Pg. 159: > ASPIRATION > IF I wus de President > Of dese United States, > I'd eat good 'lasses candy, > An' swing on all de gates. > > Pg. 163: > THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES > TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; > One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... > > Pg. 171: > DEEDLE, DUMPLING > DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! > He went to bed wid his dirty feet. > Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! > Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! > Diddle, diddle, dumpling My son John He went to bed with his stockings on Diddle, diddle, dumpiing My son John > Pg. 186: > DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST > DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, > Don't sing 'fore you eat, > Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, > You'll cry 'fore you sleep. > > Pg. 207: > LEARN TO COUNT > NAUGHT'S a naught, > Five's a figger. > All fer de white man. > None fer de Nigger. > > Ten's a ten, > But it's mighty funny; > When you cain't count good, > You hain't got no money. > > Pg. 209: > INDEPENDENCE > I'se jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. Didn't someone once publish a book with the title, "A Hog On Ice"? I've never heard either version used in real life. > Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. > If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. > I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. > > Pg. 211: > DRINKING RAZOR SOUP > HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; I once heard someone telling a "preacher" joke say, "Neebuck took a [raz@] an' stahted slewin' them Jews." At the time, I thought he had simply made up that pronunciation of "razor" to make the joke funnier. Now, I guess that "razzer/rozzer" or something like them are/were actually used, like "stab/stob," etc. > Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. > If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, > Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. > > He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, > Dough he talk so big an' smart. > Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. > Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. > > Pg. 244: > "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, > It's made in de shade, > It's stirred wid a spade. > Come buy my col' ice lemonade. > It's made in de shade > An sol' in de sun. > Ef you hain't got no money, > You cain't git none. > One glass fer a nickel, > An' two fer a dime, > Ef you hain't got de chink, > You cain't git mine. > Come right way, > Fer it sho' will pay > To git candy fer de ladies > An' cakes fer de babies." > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 22:17:46 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:17:46 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) Message-ID: Big Bill Broonzy, Black, Brown And White This little song that I'm singin' about, People, you all know that it's true, If you're black and gotta work for livin', Now, this is what they will say to you, They says: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, Stick around, But if you's black, oh, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I was in a place one night, They was all havin' fun, They was all buyin' beer and wine, But they would not sell me none. They said: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I went to an employment office, I got a number, I got in line, They called everybody's number, But they never did call mine. They said: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. Me and a man was workin' side by side, Now, this is what it meant: They was payin' him a dollar an hour, And they was payin' me fifty cent. They said: If you was white, You'd be alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, oh, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I helped win sweet victories, With my plow and hoe, Now, I want you to tell me, brother, What you gonna do 'bout the old Jim Crow? Now, if you is white, You's alright, If you's brown, Stick around, But if you's black, Hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. G7) Me and my wife went all over town And everywhere we went people turned us down Lord, in a (C7) bourgeois town It?s a (G) bourgeois town I got the (D7) bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all a- (G) round Home of the brave, land of the free I don?t wanna be mistreated by no bourgeoisie Lord, in a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around Well, me and my wife we were standing upstairs We heard the white man say ?I don?t want no niggers up there? Lord, in a bourgeois town Uhm, bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around Well, them white folks in Washington they know how To call a colored man a nigger just to see him bow Lord, it?s a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around I tell all the colored folks to listen to me Don't try to find you no home in Washington, DC ?Cause it?s a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:38 AM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM >> Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> NEGRO FOLK RHYMES >> Wise and Otherwise >> with a study >> by Thomas W. Talley >> New York: The MacMillan COmpany >> 1922 >> >> Pg. 10: >> STAND BACK< BLACK MAN >> Oh! >> STAN' back, black man, >> You cain't shine; >> Yo' lips is too thick, >> An' you hain't my kin'. >> >> Pg. 63: >> DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS >> DON'T ax me no questions, >> An' I won't tell you no lies; >> But bring me dem apples, >> An' I'll make you some pies. >> >> Pg. 113: >> DOES MONEY TALK? >> DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. >> If it tak lak dey tell, >> Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, >> It up an' say: "Farewell!" >> >> Pg. 114: >> I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY >> I'LL eat when I's hungry >> An' I'll drink when I'se dry; >> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, >> I'll live till I die. >> >> In my liddle log cabin, >> Ever since I'se been born; >> Dere hain't been no nothin' >> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. >> >> But I knows what's a henhouse, >> An' de tucky he charve; >> An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, >> I cain't never starve. >> >> Pg. 153: >> HERE I STAND >> HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; >> If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. >> >> Here I stan' on two liddle chips, >> Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. >> >> Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; >> I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. >> >> Pg. 159: >> ASPIRATION >> IF I wus de President >> Of dese United States, >> I'd eat good 'lasses candy, >> An' swing on all de gates. >> >> Pg. 163: >> THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES >> TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; >> One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... >> >> Pg. 171: >> DEEDLE, DUMPLING >> DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! >> He went to bed wid his dirty feet. >> Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! >> Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! >> > > Diddle, diddle, dumpling > My son John > He went to bed with his stockings on > Diddle, diddle, dumpiing > My son John > >> Pg. 186: >> DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST >> DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, >> Don't sing 'fore you eat, >> Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, >> You'll cry 'fore you sleep. >> >> Pg. 207: >> LEARN TO COUNT >> NAUGHT'S a naught, >> Five's a figger. >> All fer de white man. >> None fer de Nigger. >> >> Ten's a ten, >> But it's mighty funny; >> When you cain't count good, >> You hain't got no money. >> >> Pg. 209: >> INDEPENDENCE >> I'se jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. > > Didn't someone once publish a book with the title, "A Hog On Ice"? I've > never heard either version used in real life. > >> Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. >> If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. >> I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. >> >> Pg. 211: >> DRINKING RAZOR SOUP >> HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; > > I once heard someone telling a "preacher" joke say, "Neebuck took a > [raz@] an' stahted slewin' them Jews." At the time, I thought he had > simply made up that pronunciation of "razor" to make the joke funnier. > Now, I guess that "razzer/rozzer" or something like them are/were > actually used, like "stab/stob," etc. > >> Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. >> If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, >> Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. >> >> He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, >> Dough he talk so big an' smart. >> Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. >> Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. >> >> Pg. 244: >> "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, >> It's made in de shade, >> It's stirred wid a spade. >> Come buy my col' ice lemonade. >> It's made in de shade >> An sol' in de sun. >> Ef you hain't got no money, >> You cain't git none. >> One glass fer a nickel, >> An' two fer a dime, >> Ef you hain't got de chink, >> You cain't git mine. >> Come right way, >> Fer it sho' will pay >> To git candy fer de ladies >> An' cakes fer de babies." >> From pds at VISI.COM Thu Mar 31 23:42:57 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:42:57 -0600 Subject: flak In-Reply-To: <20050330230602.41D3B4A05@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 3/30/2005 02:58 PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades old : So the derivation from the German "Flugzeug Abwehr Kannonen" (or something like that) is an etymythology??? I want my mommy. --Tom Kysilko From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 1 00:13:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:13:30 -0800 Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby Message-ID: "Who _Threw_ the Overalls in Missus Murphy's Chowder?" JL paulzjoh wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: paulzjoh Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget: Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's chowder. The wearing of the green Johnson's motorcar. Irish Soldier Boy Wrap the green flag around me Rifles of the I.R.A. Black and Tans The Rebel Jesus Johnnie I hardly knew you And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was about the English being the first Egyptians Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks' and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile" > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 01:42:45 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:42:45 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >vote is for the brand name as the source. > >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~~ I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." I certainly remember the Servel with its pretty little blue flame logo. My in-laws had one on the ranch in Wyo --- before REA came into the valley -- when electricity, supplied by their own generator, was only on for a few hours each evening. Servels must have saved a lot of food from spoilage in rural America until years after WWII. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 02:38:45 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:38:45 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:42 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >>of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >>seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >>"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >>used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >>vote is for the brand name as the source. >> >>-Wilson I always wondered the same, and never could decide which was the real story. (Guess that's what turned us into linguists, right?) > ~~~~~~~~~~ >I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics (paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi (in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". Similarly, take two products associated with companies (once) based in Rochester, NY: Kodak for small, easy-to-use affordable cameras and Xerox for copy-machines. The fact that we have the generic noun (and verb) "xerox" but not the generic noun "kodak" (although obviously we have "Kodak moment" and such) has to do with the early and continued domination of the market in the case of one more than in that of the other. Or so I'd bet. I'm sure Ron Butters, Roger Shuy, et al. know much more about this stuff, but I enjoy speculating. Larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Mar 1 02:42:59 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:42:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "rag top" ? 1926 Message-ID: The OED has 1955, for the meaning of a car with a convertible top. M-W has 1953. While this is possibly not acceptible as meaning a "convertible" both M-W and OED may find it useful. I'm not into cars of the period. >From Newspaperarchive, 26 May 1926 _San Mateo(CA) Times_ pg 7(Auto section), col. 2 << "...more than one-half of all open cars sold during 1925 at prices of more than $1000 each, were Studebaker duplex phaetons and roadsters, the cars that have made the old fashioned 'rag top' automobile entirely obsolete." >> Sam Clements From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 1 02:47:59 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:47:59 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting etymological questions. I had always assumed that refrigerator was an ad coinage to get away from the primitiveness of ice box. However, MW 11 gives 1611 as the first use of refrigerator, from the French, of course. You antedating guys can get on which comes first in modern American ad use (refrigerator/Fridgedaire), but how about frigid+air = frigid+aire, a spelling to catch that sophisticated French aire. Fridge could them be ambiguously derived from both. Perhaps more interestingly, we have a modern(?) example of the French/English split dating back to the Middle Ages: French beef, pork, refrigerator, etc.; English cow, pig, ice box. Ok, a bit of a reach, but. . . Jim Stalker sagehen writes: >>I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source >>of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and >>seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by >>"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always* >>used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my >>vote is for the brand name as the source. >> >>-Wilson > ~~~~~~~~~~ > I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another > list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that > became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the > 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." > I certainly remember the Servel with its pretty little blue flame logo. My > in-laws had one on the ranch in Wyo --- before REA came into the valley -- > when electricity, supplied by their own generator, was only on for a few > hours each evening. Servels must have saved a lot of food from spoilage in > rural America until years after WWII. > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 03:34:09 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:34:09 EST Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > I agree.? In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another > list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that > became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the > 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." > Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 1 03:34:34 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:34:34 -0500 Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure that I see how this explains "The team have won its last thee matches." Jim Stalker Laurence Horn writes: > At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one >> need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule: >> >> 1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase. >> >> 2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase. >> >> -Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real >> prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.] >> > > Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end > up leaking around the edges. If the predicate relates directly to > the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to > me: > > A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click > consonants. > A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is > (?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be > closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria > region. > > [N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the spot] > > Or even more clearly in: > > "A group of people always has (#have) a leader." > > And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses: > > "For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members" > > What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the > group or of its members. > > Larry > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109602980"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 03:55:27 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:55:27 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > >> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >> > >Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is >clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > >"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few >people >who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >tissue to >dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." ~~~~~~~~~~ You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not capitalizing and adding little ? doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 1 04:17:42 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:17:42 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is > >clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. > "televison" and > >"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major > >appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > > > >"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very few > >people > >who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified > >about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a > >tissue to > >dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase > >"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. Let me propose a thought-experiment. Assume (I think this is true) that "fridge" is generic = "refrigerator", whatever its etymology. Suppose that it is shown in dictionaries with this generic sense (this is true). Now suppose that (through error or otherwise) the USPTO allowed someone to register the trademark "Fridge" for refrigerators and other appliances. Would it be correct to say that "fridge" no longer exists as a generic word? Would it be reasonable for a dictionary to delete its previous generic interpretation and replace it with "trademark for refrigerators", even if the new Fridge trademark never got far off the ground and even if hardly anyone ever used the word in the trademark sense? [This would be an extreme form of prescriptivism, maybe. (^_^)] [This is apparently what happened with "skivvies" in MW recently. Or am I missing something again?] -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 04:23:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:23:55 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little ? doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 1 04:24:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 23:24:15 -0500 Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't the use of the plural of the verb phrase with the name of a group, a team, or a set, etc. just standard English English? As for "its' vs. "their," I don't know whether that's Britspeak or not. -Wilson On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:34 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'm not sure that I see how this explains "The team have won its last > thee > matches." > > Jim Stalker > > > Laurence Horn writes: > >> At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>> It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one >>> need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule: >>> >>> 1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase. >>> >>> 2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase. >>> >>> -Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real >>> prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.] >>> >> >> Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end >> up leaking around the edges. If the predicate relates directly to >> the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to >> me: >> >> A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click >> consonants. >> A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is >> (?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be >> closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria >> region. >> >> [N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the >> spot] >> >> Or even more clearly in: >> >> "A group of people always has (#have) a leader." >> >> And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses: >> >> "For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members" >> >> What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the >> group or of its members. >> >> Larry >> >> >> -- >> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve >> security, as described below. >> >> Sanitizer (start="1109602980"): >> ParseHeader (): >> Ignored junk while parsing header: >> >> SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): >> Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): >> Enforced policy: accept >> >> >> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 07:51:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 02:51:23 EST Subject: Time magazine digital archives, and more Message-ID: On 22 February 2005, Fred Shapiro posted: ... My longstanding theory that the terms "preppie," "jock," and "wonk" all had their origins in a traditional tripartite division of Harvard students seems to be holding up pretty well, although the earliest Harvard usage of "wonk" is not quite as old as the oldest known citation. Incidentally, I saw somewhere that subscribers to Time get access to a historical archive of that magazine... Fred Shapiro ... ... _http://www.researchbuzz.org/time_magazine_archives_now_available_on_timecom_. shtml_ (http://www.researchbuzz.org/time_magazine_archives_now_available_on_timecom_.shtml) December 22, 2004 TIME Magazine Archives Now Available on TIME.com TIME magazine has now made its 81 years of archives available, over 266,000 articles. The archives have their own domain at _http://www.timearchive.com_ (http://www.timearchive.com/) . The archive is keyword and date-searchable, with an additional search for covers. A search for "Jimmy Carter" found over 2700 articles. Articles are listed with title, date, byline, snippet, and article word count. When I went to view an article, I was surprised to see that I could! But it was a Web article I was looking at. When I tried to look at a non-Web article, I got the first paragraph or so and a note that if I were a TIME subscriber I would have full archive access for free. The subscription is $1.99 for the first 12 issues, and then about $15 for six months. That's not bad at all. But if you don't want to do that, look for the option that says "Click here to see other purchase options". Individual articles are $2.50 and an annual subscription are $49.95. ... ... December 22, 2004 Argus Digital Collection Indexed from 1894-2003 I love it when someone submits a resource and I ask them to submit it again when it's a little further along and they actually DO -- over a year later! Illinois Wesleyan University's newspaper, The Argus, has been published continuously since 1894. And now the archives from the newspaper from 1894-2003 are now available. You can check them out at _http://www.iwu.edu/library/services/argus1.htm_ (http://www.iwu.edu/library/services/argus1.htm) . A list of indexed terms are available from 1965-2003, so those are the only dates available for keyword searching. All the papers are browsable, though, by date. I searched for the phrase Jimmy Carter. I got three results. Results list only the dates. Click on the icon next to the date and you'll get an image of the front page. Click again and you'll get the complete issue as a PDF, including advertisements, which are always interesting years after the fact. Even the earlier editions of the paper are pretty easy to read, though the photographs in the early 80s volumes I looked at were pretty rough. ... February 25, 2005 * An Index of Mad Magazine Covers It's hard to believe that you used to be able to go to the Fast Fare and buy Cracked, Crazy, and Mad magazine at the same time. It's been ages since I've read any of them, so it was a tidal wave of nostalgia when I came across the Mad Magazine cover archive at _http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/index-covers.html_ (http://www.collectmad.com/madcoversite/index-covers.html) . All the covers are here from #1 in 1952 to #451 in March 2005. All the ones I looked at also had a table of contents of what was available in the issue. I wish the cover images were a little larger but they're still great. In addition to the cover images, this site also has tv and movie satire lists, ad satire lists, a very short quiz, and a bunch of Mad-related links. A lot of work was put into this. Timesink! ... ... December 01, 2004 The Scotsman Launches a Digital Archive The Scotsman has launched a digital archive of their newspaper going back to 1817 and going through 1900. Though it does cost to access articles, searching is fahree and there's a sample of content available. The archive's at _http://tinyurl.com/5xjuo_ (http://tinyurl.com/5xjuo) (sorry, the original URL is enormous.) Searching is by simple keyword. A search for "Frodo" found 31 results. Results included the headline from the article found, the date and page from which the result it drawn, and the number of results in the article. If you'd like to see the item, you have several options, from a 24-hour pass for ?5.95 to a one-year pass for ?109.95. In addition to the search, the archive also contains the history of The Scotsman and a fahree sample issue (the first issue of the paper!) If you'd rather browse than search, a calendar of issues is available. Nicely done and not a bad price -- I like all the options for access. ... ... December 01, 2004 Online Database of Scots Texts Available It's called SCOTS, and it stands for Scottish Corpus of Texts and Speech. It includes about 400 texts from Scots to Scottish English. It was assembled by the Arts and Humanities Research Board and it's available at _http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/_ (http://www.scottishcorpus.ac.uk/) . The site is searchable by several different factors, including word (of course), author, gender, area of birth or residence, and year composed. A search for "richt" found 112 results, with results listing title, author, and multimedia. I took a look at Daft Jackie ("Folk kent for miles aboot that Duncan Dungarroch wisnae hauf as bricht as the beer he brewed.") The text is presented complete, with the word for which you searched highlighted. It looks like most of these writings are fairly short. There were some items which were transcriptions and were marked with "audio" in the multimedia portion of the search results. Each of the lines on these transcriptions were clickable, but I wasn't able to generate any audio from them, even viewing them in Internet Explorer. Perhaps you will have better luck than me. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 09:54:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 04:54:45 EST Subject: TIME coinages?; Wuss (1977) Message-ID: _TIME_ COINAGES? ... (ADS-L ARCHIVES) #3979 (24 Jan 2000 05:37) - Coinages (part four)(LONG!) Time coined the word "newsmagazine," along with many other words that entered the language--socialite, guesstimate, televangelist--and many words that did not, including cinemactor and nudancer and sexational. (RHHDAS has guesstimate from 1934, but with no Time citation--ed.) ... ... NEWSMAGAZINE Miscellany _(During the Past Week the Daily Press..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,727690,00.html) Dec. 24, 1923 (During the Past Week the Daily Press Gave Extensive Publicity to the Following Men and Women. Let Each Explain to You Why His Name Appeared in the Headlines.) Mrs. Leonard Wood: "The New York Evening Journal, self-styled 'America's Greatest Evening Newspaper,' ignorantly announced that I had been appointed a Vice Chairman of the Republican National ... ... (OED) 1890 Science 3 Jan. 11 The first number of a weekly *news magazine. 1953 Encounter Nov. 5/1 He shifted to the weekly news-magazine, Der Spiegel. 1992 Economist 31 Oct. 51/1 Old News is the output of the broadsheet newspapers, the news magazines and the television networks' news shows. ... ... GUESSTIMATE No early citation in TIME. See ADS-L archives. ... ... SOCIALITE (OED has this citation) _Engaged. Almira G. Rockefeller, only..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,928438,00.html) Dec. 31, 1928 Engaged. Almira G. Rockefeller, only daughter of the late William G. Rockefeller, grandniece of John Davison Rockefeller, recent debutante, of Manhattan & Greenwich, Conn.; to M. Roy Jackson, able huntsman, widower, father of two married daughters, of Rye, N. Y. Engaged. Melville E. Stone II, grandson of . Associated Press General Manager Melville E. Stone, ... ... ... TELEVANGELIST (OED has 5 March 1973 from TIME, but only this shows up?) Religion _Retailing Optimism_ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,917133,00.html) Feb. 24, 1975 The cameras are in place. So is the Pan-Cake makeup. Cue the lights. Ready on the fountains. Action. "This is the day God has made," beams the Rev. Robert Schuller as he bounds toward the pulpit. A glass panel separating the walk-in sanctuary from the drive-in sanctuary lumbers open. As a dozen fountains spurt skyward, .. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- WUSS ... We have 1976, so I don't know if 1977 helps. THE ITHACAN, from Ithaca College, supposedly is digitized from January 1931, but a check of the word "slang" shows an entry in January 1927. ... ... 24 February 1977, THE ITHACAN, pg. 13, col. 1: A group of athletically-inclined might polish off a half in thirty minutes, while a wuss convention will take all night to dent a quarter.. From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Tue Mar 1 15:01:12 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:01:12 -0600 Subject: Kleenex and icebox Message-ID: At my house, "kleenex" denotes the tissue squares that come packaged in little boxes, while "tissue" denotes the stuff coiled on rolls that we use in the bathroom. "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends had a field day with my American useage. As well, the large appliance that keeps food chilled is called the "icebox," unless we're being self-conscious about it. sally donlon From katherine.martin at OUP.COM Tue Mar 1 15:16:59 2005 From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:16:59 -0500 Subject: rods and poles Message-ID: The OED (ed. 2) entry for pole n.1 includes the sense "a rudimentary fishing rod; esp. one used without fittings other than a line connected to the tip of the rod (now chiefly N. Amer.)" In my own usage (born and raised in VT), pole is simply a synonym for rod, without any implication of technological simplicity. It is the only term that I use, but I have the sense of there being some sort of register distinction here, with rod as the more formal, pole as the more colloquial. DARE doesn't note any regional usages here, and pole is not covered specifically in the angling sense in either M-W or Amer. Heritage. To test the "rudimentary" aspect, I searched proquest for "pole" and "reel", and found ample evidence of poles with reels, including some along the lines of the following, where the narrative uses "rod", but direct quotes feature "pole", though there are also examples of "pole" in straight reportage. 2004 _Field & Stream_ (South ed.) Feb. p. 28 Hall's catfish tackle consists of stout 7-to-7-foot rods, Abu Garcia 7000 big-game baitcasting reels, and 40-pound-test Berkley Big Game monofilament... "When I see the tip of a pole quiver, I pick it up and engage the reel." Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? Thanks, Katherine OED From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 1 15:18:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:18:15 -0500 Subject: short order cook (1891) short order restaurant (1887) Message-ID: OEDs: 1956. However, in NewspaperARCHIVE.com, in a column of advertisements: Short Orders. Having lately added a short order bill of fare also the services of a good short order cook, I am now prpared to sever meals all hours during the day or night up to 1 o'clock. Give me a call. Hue Singleton, Decatur Morning Review, Oct. 21, 1891, p 4 And, for short order restaurant from the same data base, in a column of advertisements only some of the type of which is legible. However, this line of time is incontestably readable despite the fact that the line above and the line below are unreadable (to me): SHORT ORDER RESTAURANT Colorado Sprins Gazette, Oct. 23, 1887, p 2 From jparish at SIUE.EDU Tue Mar 1 15:22:34 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:22:34 -0600 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <200503011515.j21FF5UT021512@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Katherine Martin asked: > Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) > whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; > (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? Hmm. I don't commonly use either word, but I think I would regard "rod" as a hyponym of "pole". The proverbial stick with a string on it is a fishing (or fishin') pole, but definitely not a fishing rod. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From maberry at MYUW.NET Tue Mar 1 15:27:14 2005 From: maberry at MYUW.NET (Allen Maberry) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 07:27:14 -0800 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <200503011515.j21FF59T030659@mxe4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: In my experience a fishing pole and fishing rod are the same thing. When I was growing up (OR, 1950s-60s) the most common term was "fishin' pole" or just "pole" as in "grab your pole, I think you got a nibble". "Rod" or "rod and reel" sounds a bit more high class to me, as in "Rod and Gun Club." The exception would be for "fly-fishing rods" which I don't recall ever being referred to as "poles." allen On Tue, 1 Mar 2005, Martin, Katherine wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Martin, Katherine" > Subject: rods and poles > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The OED (ed. 2) entry for pole n.1 includes the sense "a rudimentary > fishing rod; esp. one used without fittings other than a line > connected to the tip of the rod (now chiefly N. Amer.)" > > In my own usage (born and raised in VT), pole is simply a synonym for > rod, without any implication of technological simplicity. It is the > only term that I use, but I have the sense of there being some sort of > register distinction here, with rod as the more formal, pole as the > more colloquial. > > DARE doesn't note any regional usages here, and pole is not covered > specifically in the angling sense in either M-W or Amer. Heritage. > > To test the "rudimentary" aspect, I searched proquest for "pole" and > "reel", and found ample evidence of poles with reels, including some > along the lines of the following, where the narrative uses "rod", but > direct quotes feature "pole", though there are also examples of "pole" > in straight reportage. > > 2004 _Field & Stream_ (South ed.) Feb. p. 28 > > Hall's catfish tackle consists of stout 7-to-7-foot rods, Abu Garcia > 7000 big-game baitcasting reels, and 40-pound-test Berkley Big Game > monofilament... "When I see the tip of a pole quiver, I pick it up and > engage the reel." > > Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) > whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; > (b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? > > Thanks, > > Katherine > OED > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 1 16:29:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:29:48 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics >(paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful >marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, >however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, >or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi >(in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~~ I take your point. It might be interesting to compare the advertising budgets of these competing products. I do think /kleenex/ has an intrinsic advantage over /scotties/ or /puffs/, in that it only meant one thing, and its sheer ugliness to eye & ear make it memorable. I can easily imagine (without prejudice, since I've always loathed both) /pepsi/ beating out /coke/ if they'd come on the market at the same time. /Curad/ might have won, with a head start, but /bandaid/ is such a beaut, that looks doubtful to me. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 16:39:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:39:24 -0500 Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:29 AM -0500 3/1/05, sagehen wrote: > >But in the case of most of those brand names that become generics >>(paronomasia, I think it's called), it's more the successful >>marketing of the product itself that does it than the brand name, >>however clever it may have been. If Scotties had outpaced Kleenex, >>or Pepsi Coke, we'd be calling tissues scotties and soft drinks pepsi >>(in some places), I dare say. Or "curad" as opposed to "band-aid". > > >>Larry >~~~~~~~~~~ >I take your point. It might be interesting to compare the advertising >budgets of these competing products. I do think /kleenex/ has an intrinsic >advantage over /scotties/ or /puffs/, in that it only meant one thing, and >its sheer ugliness to eye & ear make it memorable. >I can easily imagine (without prejudice, since I've always loathed both) >/pepsi/ beating out /coke/ if they'd come on the market at the same time. >/Curad/ might have won, with a head start, but /bandaid/ is such a beaut, >that looks doubtful to me. >AM > Re "kleenex": wasn't there a study on the effectiveness of "x" and "k" (or at least [k]) in denoting "modernness" in product names that came out during the post-WWII period? There certainly were a bunch of them, including the aforementioned "xerox", "clorox" (with a [k]), and "Kodak", even if the latter didn't make it to generic status. I think there were other examples, although I can't dredge them up at the moment. I think "scotch-tape" also had the right phonology for success, although it lacked the non-ambiguity you point out as an asset for "kleenex" (and "xerox"). As to ugliness, "kleenex" is a little like all those box buildings ("international style") that were so popular during the same period, isn't it? Larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 1 16:43:32 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 08:43:32 -0800 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: --On Monday, February 28, 2005 10:34 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: > > Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is > clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" > and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner > of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. > > "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it > as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very > few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would > be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or > "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be > confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex > cocktail napkins." All this is true only if you ignore popular usage. And why would a linguist do that? If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law. I never heard of "Kleenex rubber panties" and have a hard time picturing something that's both rubber and made of kleenex. Trademarked or not, I remember people using "frigidaire" generically--e.g., "Get a coke out of the frigidaire." I suspect this was in the days when Frigidaire made only refrigerators, and that the usage faded when the label was expanded to other products. Similarly, I clearly remember my grandfather using "kodak" as a generic for "camera"--at a time when Kodak products dominated the U.S. market in cameras that ordinary folks could afford. This, likewise, faded when the market changed (not unlike what seems to be happening with "church key"). A bit tangentially, the English of the Pennsylvania Amish apparently once had "fordcar" as a generic for "car." My only source, admittedly, is a play, Papa Is All, which was set in Pa. Amish country and did at least a convincing job of conveying the speech of that milieu. There was a line in the play about somebody having bought a "Chevrolet fordcar." Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 17:21:00 2005 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:21:00 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). People will think it is weird to say for example, "Puff Kleenex." -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Subj: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:23 pm Size: 3K To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little ? doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 1 17:38:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 09:38:19 -0800 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: I grew up using "tissue" interchangeably with "kleenex." The stuff on rolls is "toilet paper." JL ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). People will think it is weird to say for example, "Puff Kleenex." -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Subj: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Date: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:23 pm Size: 3K To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU At 10:55 PM -0500 2/28/05, sagehen wrote: > >In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> >> >>> I agree. In fact I made much the same argument in an exchange on another >>> list."Frigidaire" was one of those inspired brand names like "Kleenex" that >>> became the generic. It may not be so universally used now as it was in the >>> 40s & 50s, since now we just say "fridge." >>> >> >>Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." How about "a generic"? >"Refrigerator" is >>clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" and >>"telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner of major >>appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >>"Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it as > >a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Now, wait a minute. This sounds awfully prescriptive. If people use it to refer to 'tissue' regardless of the brand name on the package, how is this "not a "generic""? Maybe we're using "generic" differently. >Surely there are very few > >people >>who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would be mystified >>about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or "She used a >>tissue to >>dry her eyes." How is that a problem for the view that "kleenex" is a generic for "tissue"? Nobody's claiming it's the only generic. Ditto band-aid (for adhesive bandages), jello, scotch-tape, etc. In some cases, the old brand name has become the unmarked label for the category ("jello" may be one such), in others, it's on equal footing with the original generic ("Clorox" vs. "bleach", maybe "band-aid" vs. "bandage", the latter being perhaps too general in reference), in others (maybe "kleenex"/"tissue") the original generic is definitely holding its own, but I don't see how that leads us to conclude that "kleenex" isn't used as a generic for "tissue". >Likewise, few people would be confused if asked to purchase >>"Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex cocktail napkins." >~~~~~~~~~~ >You're talking technically, legally. What we're saying (or at least I am) >is that these two trademarks have become naturalized, figuratively >speaking, and do function as the generic, even though the companies instead >of simply glorying in their success choose to grouse about people's not >capitalizing and adding little ? doodads. I, as a matter of fact, would >be puzzled by "Kleenex rubber pants" or "Kleenex napkins," but I am a >dinosaur & not always au courant with the new-fangled. >AM > What she said. If my wife writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, she's not asking me to buy Kleenex brand tissues, she's asking me to buy tissues; if she writes "Puffs" or "Scotties", this isn't the case. (Nor does "scotties" or "puffs" show up in lower-case the way "kleenex" often does--and when it does, it's always for the tissues, I'd wager; not for the cocktail napkins or rubber panties. And, come to think of it, if X writes "Kleenex" on the shopping list, we want to be able to predict that while X will be perfectly content if Y brings back those Puffs, there will be a bit of consternation if Y brings back Kleenex brand rubber pants... larry FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Mar 1 17:45:12 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:45:12 +0000 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <200503011738.j21HcRSi018352@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 1/3/05 5:38 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > I grew up using "tissue" interchangeably with "kleenex." The stuff on rolls > is "toilet paper." > > JL > Agreement on the former, but colloquially in the UK, the latter is "bog roll". -Neil Crawford From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Mar 1 18:46:50 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:46:50 -0600 Subject: rods and poles In-Reply-To: <1109690554.422488bae7fe3@webmail.siue.edu> Message-ID: In the forties and fifties a child had a bamboo pole, with a line and a hook, tied on the end, whereas grownups had bamboo rods with ferrules , a reel and a lure. This was in Ill. and Wis. The bamboo rods were compound; being made out of split pieces of bamboo and then joined together with both glue and ferrules. In addition a handle for the reel was permanently attached. In my mind a rod is always an artifact, where a pole is just a long stick Jim Parish wrote: >Katherine Martin asked: > > >>Does anyone have further insight into this, specifically concerning a) >>whether "pole" does typically indicate a simpler sort of fishing rod; >>(b) whether there is a colloquial/standard dimension to pole/rod? >> >> > >Hmm. I don't commonly use either word, but I think I would regard "rod" as a >hyponym of "pole". The proverbial stick with a string on it is a fishing (or >fishin') pole, but definitely not a fishing rod. > >Jim Parish >------------------------------------------------- >SIUE Web Mail > > > > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 1 19:00:15 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:00:15 -0500 Subject: short order cook (1891) short order restaurant (1887) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:18:15 -0500, Barnhart wrote: >OEDs: 1956. > >However, in NewspaperARCHIVE.com, in a column of advertisements: > >Short Orders. >Having lately added a short order bill of fare also the services of a good >short order cook, I am now prpared to sever meals all hours during the day >or night up to 1 o'clock. Give me a call. >Hue Singleton, Decatur Morning Review, Oct. 21, 1891, p 4 The term also appears in L.A. Times classified ads from Nov. 1891 on. >And, for short order restaurant from the same data base, in a column of >advertisements only some of the type of which is legible. However, this >line of time is incontestably readable despite the fact that the line >above and the line below are unreadable (to me): > >SHORT ORDER RESTAURANT >Colorado Sprins Gazette, Oct. 23, 1887, p 2 By searching on "shortorder" I was able to find a more legible version of what is apparently the same ad, published several months earlier: ----- _Daily Gazette_ (Colorado Springs), Feb. 24, 1887, p. 4, col. 3 Chicago Bakery ERICSON & GOUGH, Proprietors, Next Door to the Postoffice. We invite a Trial of Our Bread and Cakes As we are sure they will be found Superior to any in the city. We also carry a full line of Choice Confection- ery and Pure Home-Made Candies. We have also in connection with our Bakery a Short Order Restaurant And are prepared to fill all orders for Ice Cream and Ices. ----- --Ben Zimmer From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:11:04 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:11:04 -0500 Subject: "Gwine" Message-ID: Yes, you're right about "goin" (monosyllabic) as a source. Labials & velars in SW English project a /w/ after the consonant, so you get "bwile" for boil and "bwy" for boy. Both of these occur in Caribbean creoles. I don't know if either made it to these shores--bile sounds more usual in American vernaculars to me than bwile does. Yours, Paul Johnston From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:44:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:44:20 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <142.408d98dd.2f55fea4@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:21 PM -0500 3/1/05, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems >clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and >that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to >paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). But is this really any different from knowing that "drink" sometimes denotes an imbibable liquid and sometimes an imbibable alcoholic liquid? Or that "color" can include or exclude black and white? Or that "guys" can pick out males sometimes but be gender-nonspecific other times, and so can "gays"? Or that _Frau_ in German and _femme_ in French may pick out women in general or just wives? Or that a Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? Isn't this just the garden variety autohyponymy that often results from broadening and narrowing? What (most) English speakers know, I submit, is that "Kleenex" is a name for a certain brand of tissue and also that it's a generic essentially equivalent to "tissue"; what they know about "Scotties" and "Puffs" is that they have the former sort of meaning and not the latter. There is a case to made for some of these distinctions involving uses rather than senses, but I think with most of those derived generics the line has been crossed. (And to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has essentially disappeared from the speech community.) larry From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 1 20:51:33 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:51:33 -0600 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Or that a >Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after all, not a subset of people from New England)? Barbara From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 1 20:54:21 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 15:54:21 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: These things ebb and flow. A few years ago, I was surprised when people started correcting my references to "Xerox machine" (which I then considered generic, in ordinary speech, for "copier") with "No, it's an IBM [or other specific make] machine." Now "copier" has replaced "Xerox machine" in my own vocabulary. A Kleenex, to me, can be of any brand. My wife, however, routinely asks for a "tissue," even though Kleenex brand tissues are what we use. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 3:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) (And to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has essentially disappeared from the speech community.) larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 1 21:51:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:51:39 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 12:21 PM -0500 3/1/05, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >> the issue is nor just what people say but what they KNOW. IT seems >> clear to me that most people know that KLEENEX is a brand name and >> that it is merely used by speakers in a shorthand way to refer to >> paper tissues (toilet tissue is a compound, by the way). > > But is this really any different from knowing that "drink" sometimes > denotes an imbibable liquid and sometimes an imbibable alcoholic > liquid? Or that "color" can include or exclude black and white? Or > that "guys" can pick out males sometimes but be gender-nonspecific > other times, and so can "gays"? Or that _Frau_ in German and _femme_ > in French may pick out women in general or just wives? Or that a > Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the > northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? > > Isn't this just the garden variety autohyponymy that often results > from broadening and narrowing? What (most) English speakers know, I > submit, is that "Kleenex" is a name for a certain brand of tissue and > also that it's a generic essentially equivalent to "tissue"; what > they know about "Scotties" and "Puffs" is that they have the former > sort of meaning and not the latter. There is a case to made for some > of these distinctions involving uses rather than senses, but I think > with most of those derived generics the line has been crossed. (And > to respond to the question, there are at least some google hits for > "Canon xerox machines", "Scotties kleenex", "Curad band-aids", and > the like, while in other cases--"kitty litter", "crock pot", > "spackle"--any knowledge of the brand name origin of the generic has > essentially disappeared from the speech community.) > > larry > I was caught completely off-guard when I discovered that "Kitty Litter" was a brand name. I'd been using the name generically for years. And I learned "kodak" - the kind of kodak that we used was the oddly-named "Brownie" - a long time, at least a decade, before I learned the word "camera." -Wilson From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 22:01:19 2005 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:01:19 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't it, Ron? That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in determining whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? Some of this ground is covered in an excellent article by Ron and Jennifer Westerhaus, "Linguistic change in words one owns: How trademarks become 'generic,'" in _Studies in the History of the English Language II: Unfolding Conversations_, edited by Anne Curzan and Kimberly Emmons (Mouton de Gruyter, 2004). One might accuse me of several conflicts of interest in mentioning it, I suppose, since Anne is my collaborator, Ron is my colleague and friend, and Jennifer is my fiancee, but Jenny and Ron would be the first to point out that I agree entirely with Larry. (Usually, they just say that I'm wrong, but now maybe they'll say something like, "Well, now you're just agreeing with Larry," instead.) Michael From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Tue Mar 1 22:16:25 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:16:25 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <38C9CF6F.57DCE964.0B0EF510@aol.com> Message-ID: Tom Murray had an article some years ago called "From trade name to generic: The case of Coke" (Names, 43, 1995, 165-186). He cites court cases dealing with "allowed" use of the brand name as generic. Roger Shuy may have something on these issues too. At 05:01 PM 3/1/2005, you wrote: >The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't >it, Ron? That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in >determining whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? > >Some of this ground is covered in an excellent article by Ron and Jennifer >Westerhaus, "Linguistic change in words one owns: How trademarks become >'generic,'" in _Studies in the History of the English Language >II: Unfolding Conversations_, edited by Anne Curzan and Kimberly Emmons >(Mouton de Gruyter, 2004). One might accuse me of several conflicts of >interest in mentioning it, I suppose, since Anne is my collaborator, Ron >is my colleague and friend, and Jennifer is my fiancee, but Jenny and Ron >would be the first to point out that I agree entirely with >Larry. (Usually, they just say that I'm wrong, but now maybe they'll say >something like, "Well, now you're just agreeing with Larry," instead.) > >Michael From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Mar 1 22:54:48 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:54:48 -0500 Subject: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109666612@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: Peter A. McGraw wrote: > --On Monday, February 28, 2005 10:34 PM -0500 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >> In a message dated 2/28/05 8:40:55 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes: >> > >> Neither "Frigidaire" nor "Kleenex" is "the generic." "Refrigerator" is >> clearly "the generic" and has a shorthand form, "fridge" (cf. "televison" >> and "telly"). "Frigidaire" is a brand name that is found on all manner >> of major appliances, not just those that keep things cold. >> >> "Kleenex" is a trademark, not a "generic," though people do indeed use it >> as a shorthand for the generic "(paper) tissue." Surely there are very >> few people who would not understand a request for a "tissue," or would >> be mystified about such phrases and sentences as "a box of tissues" or >> "She used a tissue to dry her eyes." Likewise, few people would be >> confused if asked to purchase "Kleenex rubber panties" or "Kleenex >> cocktail napkins." > > > All this is true only if you ignore popular usage. And why would a > linguist do that? > > If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either > affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law. When I was in high school, the officially sanctioned response when someone asked for a tissue (instead of a Kleenex) was "tissue? I hardly know you". -- Alice Faber From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Mar 1 22:57:17 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:57:17 EST Subject: The meaning of GENERIC (was FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX) Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 5:01:47 PM, MAdams1448 at AOL.COM writes: > The primacy of what consumers KNOW is also technical and legal, too, isn't > it, Ron?? That is, it's one thing that matters to the courts in determining > whether trademark terms have become generic, yes? > Well, I would say that the primacy of what SPEAKERS know is what linguistics is all about. In lexicography, one describes the meanings that one concludes--inductively, on the basis of the data of actual use (but also with some use of introspection and the work of previous lexicographers)--that are in the minds of speakers of the language. In linguistics, the usual definition of GENERIC is not relevant to the issue of trademarks, since GENERIC (as linguists susually use the term) may be applied to ANY word (e.g., "The giraffe has a long neck" is ambiguous between a generic and a nongeneric reading). The lexicographical definition of GENERIC (in the sense relevant to this discussion) is essentially borrowed from the law. Legally, a term is not GENERIC if it is a trademark. KLEENEX and JELLO and BAND-AID are legal trademarks; therefore, they are not "the generic term." They may be USED in a SHORTHAND way (Jenny and I called this SYNECHDOCHE in our article that Michael mentions) as if they were generics, but that does not make them generics unless people really believe that they are no longer trademarks. It truly happened with, say, ZIPPER and ASPIRIN, but not with KLEENEX, that people came to so believe. Perhaps there is some taxonomic profit in (re)defining GENERIC in linguistics/lexicography to include the shorthand sense as well as the legal sense, but I can't see any profit in essentially blurring a distinction that is culturally quite important (i.e., in the law) and that delineates a real difference in linguistic knowledge and behavior (i.e., people recognize MICROSOFT and KLEENEX as one kind of word, ZIPPER as the other). Perhaps it could be useful to create a category that contains KLEENEX and ZIPPER but excludes MICROSOFT, but it seems to me that the burden of argument is on those who would find such a category necessary--and they need also to explain why such a category is culturally and/or linguistically useful, and why they want to appropriate a term that already has a closely related meaning. I don't think I "disagree" with Larry and Michael--it is really just a question of what labels to assign to what concepts. Of course, it would be perfectly legitimate to say that there is no little empirical evidence to indicate that, in folk speech, many people use the term GENERIC in what I am arguing here is a less-useful way (and which Michael and Larry seem to favor). As linguists and lexicographers, we ought certainly to record that "fact" as well. I suggest, however, that most people who use "generic" in the Michael-Larry way have in fact been from the outset strongly influenced by the legal sense of the term--that is, they are in realilty attempting to use it in a quasi-legal fashion without understanding the sociolegal implications of their usage. And this leads to all sorts of confusion. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 00:34:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:34:53 -0500 Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again Message-ID: CEDAR REVOLUTION CEDAR REVOLUTION--652 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits >From the NEW YORK SUN, editorials, 1 March 2005, pg. 8, col. 1: _The Cedar Revolution_ (...) First the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, then the Purple Revolution of Iraqis raising their dyed fingers after voting, (Col. 2--ed.) now the Cedar Revolution against Syrian domination in Lebanon. Actually, I'd go with "Velvet Revolution" in the Czech Republic being the daddy of all these. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Lebanon Government Resigns After Protest ... The State Department's annual report on human rights abuses around the world, released Monday, called the events in Lebanon a "Cedar Revolution" - a moniker ... clari.world.gov.politics - Feb 28, 11:30 pm by AP (GOOGLE) http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=13082 Name that revolution Wednesday, March 02, 2005 WASHINGTON: The U.S. State Department named anti-Syrian street demonstrations in Lebanon the "Cedar revolution," in reference to Lebanon's majestic trees that are celebrated in the Bible as a symbol of well-being and are at the centerpiece of the national flag. Presenting on Monday the State Department's annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2004, Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs Paula Dobriansky said: "In Lebanon, we see growing momentum for a 'Cedar revolution' that is unifying the citizens of that nation to the cause of true democracy and freedom from foreign influence." -------------------------------------------------------------- "HOT DOG" WRONG YET AGAIN There are very few certainties in life. There is death. There are taxes. And-- METRO, "Food Stuff," 1 March 2005, pg. 14, col. 1: _Hot dog purists get buff_ _Bison meat is the newest low-fat fad for frank lovers_(...) Hot dogs became standard fare at ball parks in 1893. According to the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Chris Von de (der--ed.) Ahe, owner of a St. Louis bar and the St. Louis Browns, established "little dogs" as the game food. But another version of events says the "frankfurter" was dubbed the "hot daschund sausage" (dachshund?--ed.) by a cartoonist watching a game at New York City's Polo Grounds. While the origins of the modern hot dog is up to popular debate, its popularity hasn't wavered--consumers spent $1.8 Billion on hot dogs in supermarkets in 2003, and it's estimated that Americans eat 20 billion hot dogs a year, says the Council. (..) CATHERINE NEW catherine.new at metro.us From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 00:35:26 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:35:26 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:51 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >>Or that a >>Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >>northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? > >What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after >all, not a subset of people from New England)? > No, the baseball team "Yankee" (or the defunct pro football team) is a different item. The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind involve contexts in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because he was Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used in the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) In some contexts, that Greenwich, CT stockbroker who commutes to Wall Street isn't really a Yankee. But that craggy farmer from Vermont who talks like the guy in the Pepperidge Fahm commercial and has a profile like that of the (now eroded) Old Man of the Mountains, or the Mayflower-descended non-rhotic headmistress of a New Hampshire boarding school, and the laconic Maine lobsterman who mostly just says "ayuh" are Yankees by any definition (except the baseball one, and that we're agreeing is a different lexical item). An argument, perhaps, for a Roschian prototype definition, but I think it really does involve true autohyponymy, with different cutoff points in different contexts. larry From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Mar 2 00:37:57 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:37:57 -0600 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 01:11:35 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:11:35 -0500 Subject: Hawkins (1934, 1935, 1946) Message-ID: I copied the important materials today. Only one thing seems certain--"Hawkins" DOESN'T come from Chicago. 30 November 1946, THE NEW YORKER, pg. 75: _A REPORTER AT LARGE_ _HAWKINS IS INSIDE_ (Pg. 78, col. 2--ed.) "Hawkins is inside tonight," she said. "I only got five shots." "It's still early," Miss Palmer said. "Who's Hawkins?" I asked. "Oh, that's just an expression that means things are bad," Miss Cook said. "I picked it up from the musicians. There used to be an amateur drummer down in Washington named Hawkins who was always getting some band to let him sit in with them. He was so terrible that when everything was going wronf in the joint the musicians got to saying that Hawkins was inside. When things were jumping, they'd say Hawkins was outside. Well, so far as I'm concerned, he's inside every place on the Street tonight." 21 December 1934, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 14, col. 7: NEITHER friend nor stranger is safe from my inquiries since I first embarked on the enterprise of ferreting out the derivation of "Hawkins," meaning a bitter wind, something disagreeable, or a bogeyman, as defined by our cook. While my efforts thus far have been marked by a signal lack of success, a friend the other day contributed an interesting analogy. I was telling him of my theory that "Hawkins" is descended in its present form from the name of Sir John Hawkins, British admiral and slave trader--due, no doubt, to the fear he inspired among the Negroes with whom he dealt. My friend countered this by telling me of the use of Oliver Cromwell's name today in Ireland. The dictator and his cropheads, not content with terrorizing the cavaliers, so conducted themselves among the Irish that even to this day his name is anathema to any true son of Erin. Hence, when some child has been particularly naughty, so says my friend, its nurse will bring it to time with the threat: "Oliver Cromwell will get you if you don't behave." 27 December 1934, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ I have a very faint gleam of light to throw on the darkness of the saying "Hawkin's (sic) is outside" when the wind is biting cold. My young colored cook says that her old father always used the expression when he was alive, and that her mother thinks he meant that there was a mean old man going by. Why not your British slave trader? CONSTANT READER. Baltimore, Dec. 24. IT LOOKS as though we were on the right track, or, as the youngsters say, a "hot trail." 5 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ I am a little late telling you what I know about Hawkins, but Christmas and one thing and another delayed me. I remember, as a small child, hearinf adult members of my family--of Virginia stock for many generations--say on a day when the wind was particularly high and cold, "Hawkins is certainly out today." I have heard similar expressions from Negroes, but I have never had the impression that Hawkins was of African origin. It was my idea that the darkies had borrowed him from the whites. This idea is strengthened by what my wife tells me. She is English, and spent her early years in Devonshire and South Wales, and she says that Hawkins was frequently mentioned there when the wind was especially nippy. But who Hawkins is and why he should be the personification of a sharp and cutting wind, neither she nor I, nor anyone else I have talked to, has any explanation whatever. I hope your researches may discover the answer. At least the gentleman seems to be widely, if rather unfavorably, known. W. G. M. Norfolk, Va., Dec. 31, 1934. 8 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ In the interest of the advancement of science, I recently asked a venerable Negro named Clarence Thomas (!--ed.) whether he had ever heard the expression "Hawkins is outside." He replied in the affirmative and said that his old father had frequently used this quaint expression to indicate that the weather was inclement, cold and windy. I then asked him what his notion was as to the etiology of this bit of folklore. He replied that he did not know. I beg to remain, sir, your obedient servant, always willing to aid in the advancement of the sum total of human knowledge. SCIENTIST. Baltimore, January 6. I'LL BET he said: "Etiology, Marse Scientist? Etiology? That's sumpin' we all just ain't studyin' a-tall!" 9 January 1935, BALTIMORE SUN, "Down the Spillway" by John O'Ren, pg. 10, col. 7: _Dear Spillway:_ In the long, long ago when I was an apprentice on an Eastindiaman--we spelled it that way then; it was in the late eighties--I used to hear great yarns about a famous Pirate Hawkins, a native of Penzance, Cornwall, England, from our old sailmaker, who also said Hawkins was an ancestor of his. Hawkins always chose the worst of weather to make his raids in the English Channel and about the Cornish coast. Thus, I expect, he became a second Flying Dutchman to the weather-wise. I began my sea life in 1889 and ended it in 1920. Happy New Year! W. J. FARRER. Colonial Beach, Va., Jan. 6. WELL, the consensus is--whatever the Research Department may ultimately report--that Hawkins was a devil of a fellow, and again I am disposed to offer my apologies to the most excellent members of his family for ever bringing up the subject. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 2 01:21:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:35:26 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 2:51 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >>>Or that a >>>Yankee is anyone from the U.S., or more specifically someone from the >>>northern states, or more specifically someone from New England, or...? >> >>What is the or here (leaving aside the baseball team, which is, after >>all, not a subset of people from New England)? >> >No, the baseball team "Yankee" (or the defunct pro football team) is >a different item. The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind >involve contexts in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because >he was Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used >in the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) See also the classic sociological study of "Yankee City" by Lloyd Warner and Leo Srole, in which the population of Newburyport, Mass. is divided between "Yankees" (WASPs) and "ethnics" (Jews, Irish, Italians, what have you). --Ben Zimmer From thgellar at NCSU.EDU Wed Mar 2 01:54:37 2005 From: thgellar at NCSU.EDU (Ted Gellar) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 20:54:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <200503020058.j220wr0L018225@uni05mr.unity.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I > took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a > local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google > show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). It's quite likely that a large chunk of those hits were influenced by an episode of the Fox cartoon Family Guy (now airing on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim). Season 4, episode 4, "A Very Special Family Guy Freakin' Christmas." Stewie, the talking baby-cum-arrogant queen, dreams of having a showdown with Santa Claus (who manifests powers akin to Darth Vader's), wakes up, and accuses "Klaus" of not having the "testicular fortitude to show himself." Ted Gellar NCSU undergrad thgellar at ncsu.edu --- "Perfection has nothing to do with music. If you strive for perfection, you have failed." ::Emma Lou Harris From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 02:06:49 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:06:49 -0500 Subject: "Hawkins Is Coming" Message-ID: Where does this come from, and what date is it? _Jack_ Hawkins? Like the pirate, Captain Jack Hawkins? Or like Jack Frost? http://smith2.sewanee.edu/texts/Other/Hawkins.html _Hawkins_ And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall make the snowflakes fall thick, even in Aredvi deep on the highest tops of the mountains.' Videvdat, Fargard II Around 1912 Junie Sullivan, my grandfather, left his father's farm in Stafford County, Virginia and came five miles across the Rapppahannock River to Fredericksburg. On two lots that cost $10.00 each, he and his brother Burley built a two-storey, four room house. Like the common Irishmen that they were they were also common workers: farmers, railroad hands, carpenters, distillers, roofers, painters. The house was solid and in its original form well-proportioned. By the time I was born in 1942, the house had been expanded along its left or west side. (...) Sometimes when the fresh wood cracked or popped sharply in the stove, Junie would say as flatly as if he were noticing that it was raining, "Hawkins 's coming." It is the only thing I ever remember hearing him say in the evenings around the stove. He did not direct it to anyone. He did not look up to meet their eyes when he said it. He said it, firmly enough to seize the conversation of the room just for the half second it took to say it, firmly enough to seize the center from the edge of the room, but he never moved his eyes from the angling sabre blade of his knife as it worked a groove around the prong of the gravel shooter. "Hawkins 's coming." He might say it once in an evening, a few times in a winter. When he said it, it was always as a slab cracked and the fire began to roar with the released gases. Sometimes when he said it he would grin. Sometimes he winked. He didn't wink often though, because that would make us laugh. Junie's wink was really a blink done with both eyes, but he meant it for a wink and almost everytime he did it, the children would laugh and ask him to do it again. Hawkins was also known as "Jack Hawkins" and for a while, I thought that he was a cousin or other relative of ours who would come to visit. Junie though was the only one who mentioned him, and after a while it began to dawn on me that he was like Jack Frost, the harbinger of cold. Jack Frost seemed a warmer, hearth-friendly kind of being; Hawkins was not so warm. Hawkins was evoked by the fire but was not fire nor associated with fire. The fire was only a reminder to us. Hawkins was always associated with the cold. Hawkins was the essence of cold, of terminal, destructive cold. Hawkins was the cold. The cold always at our backs as we sat facing the fire, the cold that hovered in the dark rooms of the house and reached out as the fire died and we turned out the lights for the day. The cold old men feel when they sit summer evenings in wool sweaters, rubbing fingers that always hurt, the kind of cold Junie felt sawing ice blocks on the river in winter of 1912. Junie pronounced his coming with a flat certainty that never once let enter a shred of doubt about his reality. I knew that Hawkins was real and I knew that when he got here, it meant a closure and a sorting out of things. Hawkins combined the idea of retribution and resolution, of bringing things to an end and of putting things in their right places, a last leveling reduction of effort and posture and vanity under the weight of ice and snow and frost. There was neither dread nor doubt in Junie's voice. He said, "Hawkins 's coming," and as the wind rose and the ashes of the fire sank, I knew he was right. Hawkins had a name, but I knew he was not a man although when I tried to picture him, I thought of the faces of men, particularly the mean ones my aunts had known. One of them had been sent to prison and I sometimes thought Hawkins would look like Ray Pitts, with dark eyes that never smiled. I also thought of Hawkins as very powerful, not strong like a muscular man, but strong like the wind or the cold, a warlock of all winters frozen in a single relentless intent. Hawkins was more than a man, not a monster or terror though, more like God, I suppose, but Junie did not talk much about God. God talk was like house talk; it was the work of women, and Hattie only talked of God when she got scared during thunderstorms. Then she hurried us all into the parlor, pulled down the shades, turned out the light, and repeated, "Be still and know that I am God," each time it thundered. We could not talk or move or play while the storm was going on. Sometimes I would peek, glancing quickly between the curtain and the shade to see if I could see God in the lightning and rain out in the street, but peeking only brought the wrath inside. "Get your eyes away from that window! You hear me child," snapped Hattie. "That lightning come in here and kill us all." I learned the tokens of a kind of theological discourse in that house, and the storm god and Hawkins, the gods of summer and winter, were more real and vivid than all the tales of Sunday School and Church. The finality of Junie's pronouncement of Hawkins' coming gave Hawkins a cosmic, apocalyptic, character. Hawkins was not just the end of the summer, the end of the green leaves and the tomatoes on the vine. Hawkins was the end. The end of everything. Coming like a blanketing, freezing blizzard, covering and annihilating everything in his path in a grip of cold that would still the earth and men upon it. For all that, Hawkins' coming was certain, but in a way not fearsome. Junie did not say it to frighten us. He did not tell us Hawkins would cut our ears off and sell us to Gypsies or stuff us in grass sacks and throw us in the river. Hawkins was coming. Junie knew it. He announced it. It was not commented upon or debated. When the fire popped and Junie said, "Hawkins 's coming," the response was somatic, not verbal. Women shifted on their cushions, pulling their sweaters tighter, or if the women around the fire were my great aunts, they curled their snuff wads to the other side of their lips and released their breath in the long slow sigh that was their way of consenting and commenting at the same time on any final thing. For a moment, the tidal, chthonic flow of talk in the room was reversed. Matriarchy fell silent, and patriarchy claimed its place. Junie squinted at the groove in the hickory, testing its depth with his thumbnail. He set his knife to the other prong and a tiny tress-like spiral, like a curled lock of girl's hair, peeled under the edge. Directly, a child would knock over a stool or toy or one of my aunts would reach for the fire poker to jiggle the wood. Bill got up and walked out to the kitchen. "Anybody want anything while I'm back here," he asked, not waiting for a reply. We were not an intellectual family. No one asked who Hawkins was or what Junie meant by saying he was coming. No one protested that since he hadn't already come he wasn't likely to. Hawkins was real and the reality of Hawkins overwhelmed our sense of self and place and permanence, but no one said these things. No one said, as if to soften the truth, "Yeah, it sure is getting cold outside," or tried to exchange the truth into another more understandable currency. The truth was known by being felt, and I could see it in the complex ritual of soma and gesture that followed in the wake of the pronouncement. When the women shifted in their chairs or the children fussed, when Bill moved from the central parlor to the kitchen and then to the cold, darkened porch at the end of the house, it was not that they were uncomfortable so much as that they were shifting their bodies to bear the weight of a burden they already carried. No one quoted scripture, no one said, "That's right, Junie, death is coming for us all." The truth and weight of Junie's knowledge of Hawkins anteceded all explanations. The long sighs of the women and the wind met in a harmonic of affirmation, a convergence of their being and with the body of the world. Sometimes now, when I hear the wind at night and I am half asleep, I think of old women, and sometimes, not so often, when I hear old women sigh, I feel a chill I do not name. Then, by habit of memory sealed before my childhood was over, like a hand on my shoulder turning me on the path beyond the creek, I hear an old man's voice, Junie, grandfather, "Hawkins 's coming." Hawkins 's coming. All my life I have known Hawkins is coming. Coming and already come and coming still. He has come for Junie and Hattie, Bill and Shine, for Mack Mann, and Lafayette and Smitty and all that tribe of my relatives, Sullivans and Smiths, Withers and Greens, Truslows and Mullens. Men, and women, who wore no particular labels, nameless people almost, but famous to those of us who remember them. Hawkins has come for them and the world they knew and made in the sheds and fields, around the stoves and on the porch. Like a killing frost on the last tomato vines, Hawkins has come for their world and their ways. The old wood houses, the Irish neighborhood, the lawns and sheds, the chicken coops and garages, and cellars and gardens are gone now. The lanes and trees and the rolling earth of the land itself has been leveled. And now when I walk the streets where I played I cannot remember where I am because nothing is left of their world. Hawkins came for them and for a whole way of life and devoured it without a trace save in memory. As a child, I thought everything my father and grandfathers told me was directly and unambiguously true. Living as we did in a practical world of working and making, there was an immediate empirical confirmation of each instruction, "See, Man, set the peg this way, then when the rabbit bites the apple, the trap will fall." "Look here, now. Always be sure to pack salt along the bone in the ham because there is this little pocket where air can get in and spoil it." It was an education of show and tell in woods and fields, sheds and gardens, with tools and animals. I had an implicit trust in their words. When Junie said Hawkins was coming, the only wonder I might have was when or how soon, but never if. They also told me that Santa Claus was coming. I have believed in Hawkins a lot longer than I did in Santa Claus. Now, when I sit by a fire watching orange through amber, the cracking or popping of a log brings a recollected yet adumbrated chill the fire cannot touch, and in the ashening heat of these bones I know Hawkins is coming for me and all my tribe too. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 1992 Gerald L. Smith, Sewanee, Tennessee From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 2 02:47:54 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:47:54 -0500 Subject: "Hawkins" etymology (rudimentary speculation) In-Reply-To: <2E4B0D50.26E86831.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Warrack's Scots Dictionary (1911) shows <> In Scots even more than in English I believe this word would be conventionally "hawkin". Personification of a "hawkin wind" as "Hawkins" seems plausible enough. However, I have been unable to find any example of the use of this adjective "hawking". In fact I can't find it anywhere else at all, not even in the EDD or the SND. So I don't know whether it could have been applied to a cold wind; maybe it is appropriate only for a "hawkish countenance" or something like that. Anybody recognize the word at all? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 2 02:56:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 21:56:56 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which > I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context > was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, > Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a > humorously formal alternative to "guts." FWIW, I've always thought the same. > Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? AFAIK, no. -Wilson Gray > Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 03:05:21 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:05:21 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:37 PM -0600 3/1/05, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >seems mostly just informal. > Well, if "legs" was so seen (or so we're told, whence "piano limbs" and such), I'm sure "guts" would have been. I have no idea whether "legs" *really* required euphemistic substitution in the Victorian (or any other) era, though. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 2 03:11:15 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:11:15 -0500 Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "Cedar Revolution" in Lebanon; "Hot Dog" wrong yet again > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > CEDAR REVOLUTION > > CEDAR REVOLUTION--652 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits > > From the NEW YORK SUN, editorials, 1 March 2005, pg. 8, col. 1: > > _The Cedar Revolution_ > (...) > First the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, then the Purple Revolution of > Iraqis raising their dyed fingers after voting, (Col. 2--ed.) now the > Cedar Revolution against Syrian domination in Lebanon. > > > Actually, I'd go with "Velvet Revolution" in the Czech Republic being > the daddy of all these. > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > Lebanon Government Resigns After Protest > ... The State Department's annual report on human rights abuses around > the world, released > Monday, called the events in Lebanon a "Cedar Revolution" - a moniker > ... > clari.world.gov.politics - Feb 28, 11:30 pm by AP > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp? > edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=13082 > Name that revolution > > Wednesday, March 02, 2005 > > WASHINGTON: The U.S. State Department named anti-Syrian street > demonstrations in Lebanon the "Cedar revolution," in reference to > Lebanon's majestic trees that are celebrated in the Bible as a symbol > of well-being and are at the centerpiece of the national flag. > > Presenting on Monday the State Department's annual Country Reports on > Human Rights Practices for 2004, Undersecretary of State for Global > Affairs Paula Dobriansky said: "In Lebanon, we see growing momentum > for a 'Cedar revolution' that is unifying the citizens of that nation > to the cause of true democracy and freedom from foreign influence." > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > "HOT DOG" WRONG YET AGAIN > > There are very few certainties in life. > > There is death. > > There are taxes. > > And-- > > > METRO, "Food Stuff," 1 March 2005, pg. 14, col. 1: > _Hot dog purists get buff_ > _Bison meat is the newest low-fat fad for frank lovers_(...) > Hot dogs became standard fare at ball parks in 1893. According to the > National Hot Dog and Sausage Council, Chris Von de (der--ed.) Ahe, > owner of a St. Louis bar and the St. Louis Browns Chris von der Ahe owned the St, Louis Cardinals, not the Browns, who are now the Baltimore Orioles. -WIlson Gray > , established "little dogs" as the game food. > > But another version of events says the "frankfurter" was dubbed the > "hot daschund sausage" (dachshund?--ed.) by a cartoonist watching a > game at New York City's Polo Grounds. > > While the origins of the modern hot dog is up to popular debate, its > popularity hasn't wavered--consumers spent $1.8 Billion on hot dogs in > supermarkets in 2003, and it's estimated that Americans eat 20 billion > hot dogs a year, says the Council. > (..) > CATHERINE NEW > catherine.new at metro.us > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 03:21:23 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:21:23 -0500 Subject: "...And the Cabots talk only to God" (awaiting digitized Boston Globe) Message-ID: SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (cut off--sorry - ed.)From _The Proper Bostonians_, by Cleveland Amory, pp. 13-14, 35. Copyright, 1947, by Cleveland Amory. New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc. One small poem which had its genesis in the social aspirations of just two Boston Families has become what is probably the closest thing to a social "folk song" any city ever had. Originally patterned on a toast delivered by an anonymous "Western man" at a Harvard alumni dinner in 1905, it was refined in 1910 by Dr. John Collins Bossidy of Holy Cross to be recited, apparently for all time, as follows: And this is good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots, And the Cabots talk only to God. What does Fred Shapiro have? Why don't I find an early citation on Newspaperarchive? Why don't I see this in the digitized Harvard _Crimson_? Just when in March will we get the digitized Boston _Globe_???? From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 2 03:09:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:09:20 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <7d88f3823f39a723ae0c4d83a6dcb2cb@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >> >>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>humorously formal alternative to "guts." > >FWIW, I've always thought the same. > >> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? > >I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > >> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? > >AFAIK, no. > >-Wilson Gray > >> Today it seems mostly just informal. >> >>-Matt Gordon I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 2 03:33:22 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:33:22 -0500 Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and "rile" lexically separate. Alan Baragona ______________________________________________ From: Ayres, Drummond Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM To: Baragona, Alan Subject: RE: NY Times usage question People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the 3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting riled and waters getting roiled??? From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 2 04:29:52 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:29:52 -0600 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 19:35 -0500 01/3/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >The more specific values of "Yankee" I had in mind involve contexts >in which, say, JFK didn't count as a Yankee because he was >Irish--"real" Yankees are WASPs. ("Yankee" is standardly used in >the context of Boston and Massachusetts politics in this way.) I was not aware of this distinction--and I lived north of Boston for 16 years! > In some contexts, that Greenwich, CT stockbroker who commutes to Wall >Street isn't really a Yankee. But that craggy farmer from Vermont >who talks like the guy in the Pepperidge Fahm commercial and has a >profile like that of the (now eroded) Old Man of the Mountains, Somehow I wouldn't describe that as erosion--being far too sudden a collapse. Of course, you are perfectly right, it collapsed as a result of erosion. > or the Mayflower-descended non-rhotic headmistress of a New Hampshire >boarding school, and the laconic Maine lobsterman who mostly just >says "ayuh" are Yankees by any definition (except the baseball one, >and that we're agreeing is a different lexical item). An argument, >perhaps, for a Roschian prototype definition, but I think it really >does involve true autohyponymy, with different cutoff points in >different contexts. So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) Barbara From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 2 04:56:04 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:56:04 +0100 Subject: linguistic performance during office hours Message-ID: Dr. Vera Zegers of Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum has just published a dissertation that argues that female university students speak with less self-assurance than male students during office hours. Female students tend to ?hide their light under a bushel.? So much so, that they alert their professors to weaknesses that would otherwise go unnoticed. And when female students suffer setbacks, they tend to blame themselves, whereas male students blame unfavorable circumstances. For a German summary of Zeger?s findings, see http://www.uni-protokolle.de/nachrichten/id/94838/ Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 2 05:13:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:13:49 -0500 Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 In-Reply-To: <99.5927d84d.2f564d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: Here are some instances of the transitive verb "shanghai" (= "recruit as a sailor by force or trickery" or so), from the New York Times: ----------- _New York Daily Times_, 15 March 1854: p. 3: <> ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 24 July 1857: p. 5: <> ---------- _New York Times_, 9 Feb. 1860: p. 2: <<_Richard A. Eddy_, a negro, was then placed on trial, charged with the murder of James Boston .... Eddy well-remembered him as being the individual who kidnapped, or, as it is called, "shanghaied" him on board the _Ellen Austin_ .... Boston, who was one of the most notorious "shanghais," or kidnappers of colored men, ... approached Eddy, ..., and expressed his resolution to "shanghai" him immediately for a new voyage .... [Eddy] plunged the blade of a clasp-knife into Boston's abdomen. .... The jury convicted him of manslaughter in the third degree. Great sympathy was manifested for him in Court, and his sentence, undoubtedly, will be as lenient as the law allows.>> ---------- Note that in the 1857 citation the man who is shanghaied is an accomplice and not a pure victim. None of these early citations refers explicitly to Shanghai (in China) or to a ship bound there. Note that the person doing the shanghaiing is not called a "shanghaier" but rather a "shanghai" (in the 1857 and 1860 examples). The verb "shanghai" is generally thought to be derived from the name of the city Shanghai, probably by way of "shanghai" = "kidnap for a long voyage, such as one to Shanghai", or possibly "shanghai" = "kidnap, as is done in Shanghai". Then one would assume that the noun is "shanghai" = "one who shanghais", perhaps with an intermediate stage such as "shanghai man" (cf. analogous verb "murphy" with noun "murphy man"). An alternative evolution can be considered: "shanghai" [verb] = "kidnap, as a shanghai does", where the noun is primary; the obvious source of the noun would be "shanghai" [noun] = "Shanghai rooster [or hen]", conventional usage in the 1850's AFAIK, but I don't know why the hijacker would be likened to a fancy long-legged fowl. Another possibility is that the primary sense of "shanghai" [verb] was not "put on shipboard by drug or force" but rather "pass off [an ignorant landlubber] as an able seaman" as in the 1857 citation. In this case, the word may have arisen from the contemporary practice of passing off an ordinary chicken (or egg) as a valuable shanghai. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 05:36:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:36:06 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: > >So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee than in Yankeeland...) L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 2 05:59:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 00:59:28 -0500 Subject: "...And the Cabots talk only to God" (awaiting digitized Boston Globe) Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 22:21:23 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA >edited by B. A. Botkin >Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. >1954 >Pg. ? (cut off--sorry - ed.)From _The Proper Bostonians_, by Cleveland >Amory, pp. 13-14, 35. Copyright, 1947, by Cleveland Amory. New York: E. >P. Dutton & Co., Inc. > >One small poem which had its genesis in the social aspirations of just >two Boston Families has become what is probably the closest thing to a >social "folk song" any city ever had. Originally patterned on a toast >delivered by an anonymous "Western man" at a Harvard alumni dinner in >1905, it was refined in 1910 by Dr. John Collins Bossidy of Holy Cross >to be recited, apparently for all time, as follows: > >And this is good old Boston, >The home of the bean and the cod, >Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots, >And the Cabots talk only to God. > >What does Fred Shapiro have? > >Why don't I find an early citation on Newspaperarchive? The earliest I can find on Proquest is from Feb. 1915, with "speak" instead of "talk" (and with the Cabots and Lowells reversed): ----- Yale Beats Boston Boast In Matching Toasts at Banquet Washington Post, Feb 14, 1915, p. E8 Waterbury, Conn., Feb. 13 -- College men who attended a Yale alumni dinner here last Friday evening decided today the "hit" of the evening. It was made by the Rev. Dr. Samuel Bushnell, who quoted this toast, which he said he had heard recently in Boston: "I'm from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where the Cabots speak only to the Lowells, And the Lowells speak only with God." The speaker said he sent a copy of the toast to Dean Jones and got back the following: "Here's to the town of New Haven, The home of the Truth and the Light. Where God talks to Jones In the very same tones That he uses with Hadley and Dwight." ----- The same story about Bushnell and Jones is repeated in _The Bookman_ of April 1915 (p. 113), with a few adjustments to Bushnell's toast: ----- I come from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells speak only to God. ----- The May issue of _The Bookman_ (p. 225) has this variant: ----- ...good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod, Where Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells walk with God. ----- And this appears in the September issue (p. 80): ----- A correspondent from Bronxville, New York ... offers this as the authentic version of the lines read by Dr. Bushnell: I am from Massachesetts, The land of the sacred cod, Where the Adams's snub the Abbotts And the Cabots walk with God. ----- This "authentic version" is similar to one given in a 1923 New York Times article: ----- AN IMMORTAL POEM. New York Times, Jul 6, 1923, p. 12 We are indebted to our acute contemporary, The Hartford Courant, for vivifying light on the origin and progress of a great New England lyric. The Rev. Dr. Bushnell, an illustrious and venerable name, searches and finds the beginnings and developments of a stanza that has run over continents. According to him, "at the twenty-fifth anniversary dinner of the Harvard Class of 1880 a man from the West recited: "Here's to old Massachusetts, The home of the sacred cod, Where the Adamses vote for Douglas And the Cabots walk with God." Dr. John C. Bossidy was touched by these beautiful lines. He pondered them; and "recited at the annual midwinter dinner of the alumni of the Holy Cross College: "And this is good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod. Where the Lowells talk to the Cabots And the Cabots talk only to God." ----- A July 10, 1927 Los Angeles Times article ("Boston Quatrains") casts further light on the history of the verse, based on the research of Kate Louise Roberts, compiler of _Hoyt's New Cyclopedia of Practical Quotations_. Roberts retells the story of the 1905 quatrain, with the added explanation that the unnamed Westerner's toast was "inspired by the fact that Charles Francis Adams had supported Mr. Douglas, the shoe manufacturer, for Governor." Bossidy's revision was later relayed to Bushnell, who then used it at the 1915 Yale alumni dinner. Roberts' information is based on a letter she received from Bossidy himself. --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 08:21:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:21:50 -0500 Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) Message-ID: Thanks to Ben Zimmer for that Boston poem research. I wanted to see what we have before the Boston Globe comes out. O.T.: My web site (www.barrypopik.com) got about 2,500 hits yesterday? -------------------------------------------------------------- BOWERY SPEAK >From today's Village Voice. OED has "kick the bucket" from 1785. OED has "chum" from 1684. No one checks. No one. If you write in to correct the record, it's not published. Even if there's a public editor (and the Village Voice doesn't have one), no one responds. http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0509,bpress,61613,15.html The Bowery Boys and Gals introduced plenty of raw-knuckled slang into the American vocabulary (bender, blowout, chum, kick the bucket), and patronized emerging popular-entertainment forms like melodrama, vaudeville, and freak shows. -------------------------------------------------------------- SCHMEGEGGY OED has 1964 for "schmegeggy." I don't know what the HDAS will have. SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: FOLKLORE, LEGENDS, SAGAS, TRADITIONS, CUSTOMS, SONGS, STORIES, AND SAYINGS OF CITY FOLK edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (copy cut off): II. Schmegeggies. [FOOTNOTE: Collected by Marion Charles Hatch, written by Herman Spector and Hyde Partnow. From "Living Lore of New York City," Manuscripts of the Federal Writers' Project of the Works Progress Administration in New York City, 1939.] -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK IS NOT AMERICA I just added this to my web site. It wasn't coined by Ford Madox Ford in 1927. It's especially apt after the election of 2004. New York City is a blue state and getting bluer. The 1878 citation is on the Cornell Making of America. It's from Emma Lazarus? She of Statue of Liberty "give me your poor..." fame?? New York is not America, being a mirror to the states by Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939) New York: A. & C. Boni 1927 ... ... ... (GOOGLE) City Journal Spring 1995 | Out-of-Step New York by David Brooks It's a clich? that New York City is not America, but never before has New York been so out of step with the rest of the country. Urbanities - Spring 1995. ... www.city-journal.org/html/ 5_2_urbanities-out_of_step.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages ... ... ... June 1878, Scribner's Monthly, pg. 256: In the first place, New York is not America, as Paris is France. ... ... June 1890, Century Illustrated Magazine, pg. 281: "But I say, old fellow, New York is not America, and there's a queer thing you have to be behind the curtain to find out." ... ... September 1899, The Arena (Boston), pg. 378: Happily, New York is not America as Paris is France. ... ... 6 May 1898, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 5: "You know I can scarcely say much about Chicago now, as I came directly to Evanston without stopping," he (English poet Richard Le Gallienne - ed.) said. "But I am looking forward to seeing it with great interest. They say New York is not America at all, and that one finds it much more here, and I think this must be so in a way." ... ... 22 September 1900, New York TImes, pg. BR14: John Lane will shortly publish a new volume by Richard Le Gallienne, something after the style of this author's "Prose Fancies." It will be entitled "Sleeping Beauty, and Other Prose Fancies," after the first essay. It is a "fancy," when Mr. Le Gallienne exclaims on landing in New York, "So, this is America!" As he goes on to note New York is not America, but a cosmopolis at the gates of America. ... ... 1 February 1902, New York TImes, pg. BR11: GILBERT PARKER. His Home in London and His Visit to This Country - A Talk with Him. (...) "Well, of course, New York is not America, is it?" I said, thinking of Chinatown and Little Italy and East Houston Street and the other foreign quarters that have so little in common with Fifth Avenue. "You know, nobody was ever born in New York - not even Richard Croker." ... ... 28 March 1906, New York Times, pg. 8: NEW YORK NOT AMERICA. Mary Mortimer Maxwell Taken to Task by a Brooklynite. To the Editor of The New York Times: I have read with a good deal of interest the bright articles in the Sunday issues of your paper from the pen of an "English WOman in New York," and have also been interested in the replies from her many critics. I do not doubt but that everything she has written about relative to our homes, our manners, our dress, and our tempers she has actually seen in her peregrinations through New York City. Her description of life in our flats, its conveniences and inconveniences, its trials and its temptations, is no doubt true. But then New York City is not America, (indeed it is more cosmopolitan than American,) and he or she who judges our people by the sample of civilization to be found within its borders will in my opinion go very far astray. (...) So, thank God, New York is not the whole of America, and all our families are not reared in narrow apartments where the light trickles in through a hole in an airshaft. T. G. Brooklyn, March 26, 1906. ... ... 23 July 1922, New York Times, pg. 92: WHEN the innocent, guileless, and acquisitive Englishman lands in New York, he is apt to form impressions of America which are fundamentally incorrect and which remain with him during his travels of investigation or on his return. He is not entirely to blame; rather, he is helped to fall into the position by the atmosphere in which he finds himself, even though he is warned again and again that New York is not America, and his candid friends confess in moments of expansion that there is a dim, mysterious country known as the Middle West whose inhabitants refer to the Atlatnic seaboard as the "effete East." (ADS-L ARCHIVES) >From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 4 March 1939, pg. 16, col. 2: Some wag once remarked that good Americans, when they died, went to Paris. Somebody also later discovered that New York was not America, a fortunate exemption, which makes it possible for good New Yorkers, when dead, to go not to Paris but to San Francisco. Only San Francisco rather prefers them alive. >From the NYHT, 6 February 1948, pg. 22, col. 2: _Simeon Strunsky Dies at 68;_ _Writer for "The New York Times"_ _His Unsigned Topical Essays_ _on Editorial Page Won_ _Him Wide Recognition_ (...) He was skeptical of any generalization, and the cliche "New York is not America" moved him repeatedly to demonstrate that it was nothing but America. (...)(Col. 3--ed.) He was the author of several books...and "No Mean City," 1944. The last, a defense of New York against all criticism, expressed his love for the metropolis to which he had grown up and worked. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:15:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:15:11 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Citing a 1935 source, Mencken reported the following year that "guts" was one of the words forbidden from use in motion pictures. According to E. R. Hunter & B. E. Gaines,"Verbal Taboo in a College Community" (AS 1938, pp. 96-107), a survey of nearly 400 students and faculty at "a coeducational college in East Tennessee" in 1936-37 revealed that the use of "guts" was frequently avoided - along with "bastard," "bitch," "belly," "sex," "stink" and "whore," and several others. Words deemed highly offensive today were apparently impossible to ask about. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which > I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context > was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, > Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a > humorously formal alternative to "guts." FWIW, I've always thought the same. > Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? AFAIK, no. -Wilson Gray > Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Mar 2 14:16:14 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:16:14 -0500 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: <> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gordon, Matthew J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: strong like ball I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:17:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:17:06 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: Come to think of it, my family did not say "guts" either. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >> >>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>humorously formal alternative to "guts." > >FWIW, I've always thought the same. > >> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? > >I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. > >> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? > >AFAIK, no. > >-Wilson Gray > >> Today it seems mostly just informal. >> >>-Matt Gordon I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:25:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:25:32 -0800 Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 Message-ID: These are valuable antedatings, Doug. Interestingly, OED has "shanghai" fowl only from 1853. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Shanghai (verb and associated countable noun), 1854-1860 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are some instances of the transitive verb "shanghai" (= "recruit as a sailor by force or trickery" or so), from the New York Times: ----------- _New York Daily Times_, 15 March 1854: p. 3: > ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 24 July 1857: p. 5: > ---------- _New York Times_, 9 Feb. 1860: p. 2: <<_Richard A. Eddy_, a negro, was then placed on trial, charged with the murder of James Boston .... Eddy well-remembered him as being the individual who kidnapped, or, as it is called, "shanghaied" him on board the _Ellen Austin_ .... Boston, who was one of the most notorious "shanghais," or kidnappers of colored men, ... approached Eddy, ..., and expressed his resolution to "shanghai" him immediately for a new voyage .... [Eddy] plunged the blade of a clasp-knife into Boston's abdomen. .... The jury convicted him of manslaughter in the third degree. Great sympathy was manifested for him in Court, and his sentence, undoubtedly, will be as lenient as the law allows.>> ---------- Note that in the 1857 citation the man who is shanghaied is an accomplice and not a pure victim. None of these early citations refers explicitly to Shanghai (in China) or to a ship bound there. Note that the person doing the shanghaiing is not called a "shanghaier" but rather a "shanghai" (in the 1857 and 1860 examples). The verb "shanghai" is generally thought to be derived from the name of the city Shanghai, probably by way of "shanghai" = "kidnap for a long voyage, such as one to Shanghai", or possibly "shanghai" = "kidnap, as is done in Shanghai". Then one would assume that the noun is "shanghai" = "one who shanghais", perhaps with an intermediate stage such as "shanghai man" (cf. analogous verb "murphy" with noun "murphy man"). An alternative evolution can be considered: "shanghai" [verb] = "kidnap, as a shanghai does", where the noun is primary; the obvious source of the noun would be "shanghai" [noun] = "Shanghai rooster [or hen]", conventional usage in the 1850's AFAIK, but I don't know why the hijacker would be likened to a fancy long-legged fowl. Another possibility is that the primary sense of "shanghai" [verb] was not "put on shipboard by drug or force" but rather "pass off [an ignorant landlubber] as an able seaman" as in the 1857 citation. In this case, the word may have arisen from the contemporary practice of passing off an ordinary chicken (or egg) as a valuable shanghai. -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:32:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:32:45 -0800 Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) Message-ID: My earliest "schmegeggy" - unearthed 35 years ago - is this very one. Leo Gorcey's "Bowery Boys" used *all* of the words cited by the _Voice_. What more proof do you need, Barry? You nitpicker. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Bowery Speak; Schmegeggy (1939?, 1954); New York Is Not America (1878) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to Ben Zimmer for that Boston poem research. I wanted to see what we have before the Boston Globe comes out. O.T.: My web site (www.barrypopik.com) got about 2,500 hits yesterday? -------------------------------------------------------------- BOWERY SPEAK >From today's Village Voice. OED has "kick the bucket" from 1785. OED has "chum" from 1684. No one checks. No one. If you write in to correct the record, it's not published. Even if there's a public editor (and the Village Voice doesn't have one), no one responds. http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0509,bpress,61613,15.html The Bowery Boys and Gals introduced plenty of raw-knuckled slang into the American vocabulary (bender, blowout, chum, kick the bucket), and patronized emerging popular-entertainment forms like melodrama, vaudeville, and freak shows. -------------------------------------------------------------- SCHMEGEGGY OED has 1964 for "schmegeggy." I don't know what the HDAS will have. SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: FOLKLORE, LEGENDS, SAGAS, TRADITIONS, CUSTOMS, SONGS, STORIES, AND SAYINGS OF CITY FOLK edited by B. A. Botkin Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill Company, Inc. 1954 Pg. ? (copy cut off): II. Schmegeggies. [FOOTNOTE: Collected by Marion Charles Hatch, written by Herman Spector and Hyde Partnow. From "Living Lore of New York City," Manuscripts of the Federal Writers' Project of the Works Progress Administration in New York City, 1939.] -------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK IS NOT AMERICA I just added this to my web site. It wasn't coined by Ford Madox Ford in 1927. It's especially apt after the election of 2004. New York City is a blue state and getting bluer. The 1878 citation is on the Cornell Making of America. It's from Emma Lazarus? She of Statue of Liberty "give me your poor..." fame?? New York is not America, being a mirror to the states by Ford Madox Ford (1873-1939) New York: A. & C. Boni 1927 ... ... ... (GOOGLE) City Journal Spring 1995 | Out-of-Step New York by David Brooks It's a clich? that New York City is not America, but never before has New York been so out of step with the rest of the country. Urbanities - Spring 1995. ... www.city-journal.org/html/ 5_2_urbanities-out_of_step.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages ... ... ... June 1878, Scribner's Monthly, pg. 256: In the first place, New York is not America, as Paris is France. ... ... June 1890, Century Illustrated Magazine, pg. 281: "But I say, old fellow, New York is not America, and there's a queer thing you have to be behind the curtain to find out." ... ... September 1899, The Arena (Boston), pg. 378: Happily, New York is not America as Paris is France. ... ... 6 May 1898, Chicago Daily Tribune, pg. 5: "You know I can scarcely say much about Chicago now, as I came directly to Evanston without stopping," he (English poet Richard Le Gallienne - ed.) said. "But I am looking forward to seeing it with great interest. They say New York is not America at all, and that one finds it much more here, and I think this must be so in a way." ... ... 22 September 1900, New York TImes, pg. BR14: John Lane will shortly publish a new volume by Richard Le Gallienne, something after the style of this author's "Prose Fancies." It will be entitled "Sleeping Beauty, and Other Prose Fancies," after the first essay. It is a "fancy," when Mr. Le Gallienne exclaims on landing in New York, "So, this is America!" As he goes on to note New York is not America, but a cosmopolis at the gates of America. ... ... 1 February 1902, New York TImes, pg. BR11: GILBERT PARKER. His Home in London and His Visit to This Country - A Talk with Him. (...) "Well, of course, New York is not America, is it?" I said, thinking of Chinatown and Little Italy and East Houston Street and the other foreign quarters that have so little in common with Fifth Avenue. "You know, nobody was ever born in New York - not even Richard Croker." ... ... 28 March 1906, New York Times, pg. 8: NEW YORK NOT AMERICA. Mary Mortimer Maxwell Taken to Task by a Brooklynite. To the Editor of The New York Times: I have read with a good deal of interest the bright articles in the Sunday issues of your paper from the pen of an "English WOman in New York," and have also been interested in the replies from her many critics. I do not doubt but that everything she has written about relative to our homes, our manners, our dress, and our tempers she has actually seen in her peregrinations through New York City. Her description of life in our flats, its conveniences and inconveniences, its trials and its temptations, is no doubt true. But then New York City is not America, (indeed it is more cosmopolitan than American,) and he or she who judges our people by the sample of civilization to be found within its borders will in my opinion go very far astray. (...) So, thank God, New York is not the whole of America, and all our families are not reared in narrow apartments where the light trickles in through a hole in an airshaft. T. G. Brooklyn, March 26, 1906. ... ... 23 July 1922, New York Times, pg. 92: WHEN the innocent, guileless, and acquisitive Englishman lands in New York, he is apt to form impressions of America which are fundamentally incorrect and which remain with him during his travels of investigation or on his return. He is not entirely to blame; rather, he is helped to fall into the position by the atmosphere in which he finds himself, even though he is warned again and again that New York is not America, and his candid friends confess in moments of expansion that there is a dim, mysterious country known as the Middle West whose inhabitants refer to the Atlatnic seaboard as the "effete East." (ADS-L ARCHIVES) >From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 4 March 1939, pg. 16, col. 2: Some wag once remarked that good Americans, when they died, went to Paris. Somebody also later discovered that New York was not America, a fortunate exemption, which makes it possible for good New Yorkers, when dead, to go not to Paris but to San Francisco. Only San Francisco rather prefers them alive. >From the NYHT, 6 February 1948, pg. 22, col. 2: _Simeon Strunsky Dies at 68;_ _Writer for "The New York Times"_ _His Unsigned Topical Essays_ _on Editorial Page Won_ _Him Wide Recognition_ (...) He was skeptical of any generalization, and the cliche "New York is not America" moved him repeatedly to demonstrate that it was nothing but America. (...)(Col. 3--ed.) He was the author of several books...and "No Mean City," 1944. The last, a defense of New York against all criticism, expressed his love for the metropolis to which he had grown up and worked. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 14:37:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:37:36 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: <> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Gordon, Matthew J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: strong like ball I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. -Matt Gordon --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 2 14:58:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:58:58 -0500 Subject: (Crosspost) Web resource on British dialects Message-ID: This looks like it should be very useful to those who (unlike me) have the appropriate software to take advantage of it... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:27:45 -0800 Sender: The discussion list for Language and the Law From: "C.J. Storey-Whyte" Subject: [FL-LIST] dialects This is a great source for anyone interested in British dialects: http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/collections/dialects/ ===== Dr C.Storey-Whyte, Forensic Analysis of Recordings and Communications, Old Police Station, Kington, Herefordshire HR5 3DP, UK tel: 01544 231965 (+44) fax: 01544 231934 (+44) mobile: 07743 612015 (+44) AUSTRALIA 0408 519318 (+61) US: (tollfree) 1-888-504-0152 www.audiolex.co.uk www.audiolex-australia.com www.forensically-speaking.co.uk --- end forwarded text From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 2 18:12:29 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:12:29 -0500 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in ?G? Others they are wand?rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 2 18:30:17 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:30:17 -0500 Subject: hang-up Message-ID: >From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among the prisoners on Riker's Island: Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have always been a jailhouse reality. The article began on p. 1 or the A section, and the continuation filled two pages of the Metro (B) section. The quotation is from page B6, col. 1 GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 2 18:47:05 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:47:05 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <30e6f7f30ecb01.30ecb0130e6f7f@nyu.edu> Message-ID: I did an entry for that one yesterday. I was glad to come across the Times use because I already had two "hang-up = suicide" in the database and didn't feel like they were quite enough. The earliest use I found was a 26 Mar. 1982 article titled "Jargon of Correction Officers" in the Times. No doubt Barry will antedate it. The other cite came from a Newsday datelined Queens, so the term could be NYC-specific. http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/hang_up/ Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 2, 2005, at 13:30, George Thompson wrote: >> From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among > the prisoners on Riker's Island: > Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have > always been a jailhouse reality. > > The article began on p. 1 or the A section, and the continuation filled > two pages of the Metro (B) section. The quotation is from page B6, > col. 1 From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 2 18:57:27 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:57:27 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <30e6f7f30ecb01.30ecb0130e6f7f@nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:30:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > >From an article in the NY Times of February 28, 2005, on suicide among > the prisoners on Riker's Island: > Suicides -- "hang-ups" in the cold vernacular of the cell block -- have > always been a jailhouse reality. This is in HDAS, with a first quote of 1974 (in reference to NYC). The verb is older still: 1950 ["1942-49" in HDAS dating] Goldin et al. _Dict. Amer. Underworld Lingo_ 91: _Hang up_...To commit suicide by hanging. I have a feeling that I've seen the noun earlier as well, but I can't place it right now. Tom? Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 2 19:09:48 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:09:48 -0500 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: <20050302185727.GA15042@panix.com> Message-ID: I should have noted the 1974 cite in HDAS does exist, but as it is the only one supporting that definition of the word, we now have two more for the noun and two for the verb (since the 1950 Goldin cite is not in HDAS vol. II). Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 2, 2005, at 13:57, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2005 at 01:30:17PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > This is in HDAS, with a first quote of 1974 (in reference to NYC). The > verb is older still: > > 1950 ["1942-49" in HDAS dating] Goldin et al. _Dict. Amer. Underworld > Lingo_ 91: _Hang up_...To commit suicide by hanging. > > I have a feeling that I've seen the noun earlier as well, but I can't > place it right now. Tom? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 2 20:01:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:01:05 EST Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: This bit of food slang for "nuts" or "off your rocker" or "crazy" is in today's New York Press. Only two Google hits, with one from England? ... ... _http://www.nypress.com/18/9/mail/themail.cfm_ (http://www.nypress.com/18/9/mail/themail.cfm) Wow, has the cheese fallen off of this guy's cracker ("Idiot Patrol" 2/16)? Isn't Brodeur usually the guy who throws the word "fascist" into every other sentence? Now he's a law-and-order enthusiast who thinks the prison system is too lax? Where does he get his 99 percent statistic? I'm with him on the wasteful horror that is the war on drugs, and I don't see the logic in giving violent felons weight-training equipment, but really, is the guy's gimmick supposed to be that he's so smart and brave that he can't articulate a single coherent thought? Anthony Fisher, Brooklyn ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _fifilazoid's Quizzes_ (http://www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/) ... PICS. THE EXCRUEIATINGLY DIFFICULT DB Z GT QUIZ W\PICS. has the cheese fallen off your cracker? FUNNY w\pics. KURAMA OR TRUNKS W\PICS. ... www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/ - 11k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:eIEOj7sf9ToJ:www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/+"cheese+fallen+off"+and+cracker&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.quizilla.com/users/fifilazoid/quizzes/) ... _ManchesterOnline - Football - Manchester City_ (http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/manchestercity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759) ... Slow Joe from ARWICK(snigger snigger),cheese fallen off yer cracker?Keep coming on and humouring us! Ron Jeremy(big blue), Miami 03/12/03 at 15:14. ... www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/ manchestercity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759 - 39k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_PPFwQi3FXQJ:www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/mancheste rcity/comments/view.html?story_id=74759+"cheese+fallen+off"+and+cracker&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.manchesteronline.co.uk/sport/football/manchestercity/comments/vi ew.html?story_id=74759) From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Wed Mar 2 20:09:56 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:09:56 +0000 Subject: hang-up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 2 20:47:06 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:47:06 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? Anyone have thoughts on that? Thanks! -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 2 21:06:16 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:06:16 -0500 Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA 2006: Call for Papers Message-ID: John Morse asked me to post this to the list: At the meeting of the Lexicography Discussion Group last December, I suggested, and it was agreed, that the theme for December 2005 meeting would be 200 Years of American Dictionary Making, to recognize the bicentennial of Noah Webster?s Compendious Dictionary, which was first published early in 1806. As I explained at that meeting, I see the Preface to that dictionary as one of its most significant aspects, as it constitutes a first attempt to lay out the mission of lexicography in the new country. Three particular themes in the Preface seem especially to have stood the test of time: emphasis on analyzing usage over abstract theory, the recognition and acceptance that language changes, and the prediction of the worldwide use of English. Hence, in recognition of the 200th anniversary of this important document, the Discussion Group seeks papers that provide examinations of significant persons, documents, or accomplishments that relate to one of these themes ? or to any other notable aspect of North American dictionary making in the past 200 years, Papers noting trends, making predictions, pointing out unsung heroes, or describing forgotten classics of the past 200 years of dictionary-making will also be welcome. If you plan to attend this year?s MLA (in Washington D.C.) and are interested in presenting a paper at this session, please submit an abstract to me at jmorse at m-w.com by March 15. If you would like to present a paper but can?t make that deadline, please contact me and we can discuss possible alternatives. Thank you. John Morse Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 2 21:09:01 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:09:01 -0500 Subject: Correction Message-ID: The subject line for the previous e-mail should, of course, have read: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA 2005. I'm very sorry for the error. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 21:54:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:54:00 -0800 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: Thanks for the plug, George. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Sdewalks of New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in ?G? Others they are wand?rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 2 21:56:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:56:32 -0800 Subject: Sdewalks of New York Message-ID: I heard another distinguished historian on TV a week or so ago explain that "OK" comes from "Old Kinderhook." I guess they hear the story in college and never bother to question it. I mean, those *are* the initials, right? JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Sdewalks of New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There has been a great throwing about of brains on the NYHIST-L lately, prompted by the following question. In the song, "East Side, West Side" there is a phrase in the 3rd verse: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in "G" Others they are wand'rers but they all feel just like me" What does "some are up in 'G'" refer to? Pat Cunningham responded with a useful history of the song, and an interesting variant reading, followed by some speculative philology: "Things have changed since those times, some are up in ?G? Others they are wand?rers but they all feel just like me "... is one version of the context of the up in "G" but another says "Some are up in "G", some are on the hog," which I believe would be a good thing such as "in clover" would be. Therefore they ones who are up in G could have moved on to a better place, such as Gramercy Park as someone else suggested, or conversely they could be worse off, such as in prison? Perhaps the term referred to a jail of the time? Another offered "Up in G" . . . may mean "paradise", supported by a long passage from the internet, beginning "GARDEN -- (church Slavonic) - - paradise, land of the blessed, a marvelous place in the imaginations of various peoples. Notions of a better life have been reflected in the descriptions of G. ***" (The full passage or the internet address upon request.) Generally, the participants in this list hail from apple country, and I don't mean the big apple, and have a profound ignorance of the NYC subway system, which lead someone to propose that "up in G" meant having ridden the "G" train to live in a more fashionable part of town. Evidently I have at least one landsman on the list, since someone else wrote to point out that the G line is the only subway line that doesn't pass through Manhattan. Then Michael Cassidy was heard from, regarding the possiblility that "up in G" could mean "in jail": >From a friend, my brother: The word "jail" is from English gaol pron. jail. The "g" of gem, George, gimcrack, gin, etc. sounds like "j" to illiterate irish people in NYC ca. 1850-1880 when slang term "g:" for jail evolved, "g" is the cooler (cu/laire: a dark recessed place, a dungeon, a jail.) probably here the "UP" refers to UP NORTH of NYC in Ossining, AKA SING SING. 68% of NYC jail population in 1868 is irish or irish american. It wasn't any classical reference to heaven it was a saol luim (slum) term for JAIL (gaol.) d I think most of us suspect who Michael Cassidy's brother might be. I asked, and indeed, 'tis himself. All of this developed while I was trying to pull myself together enough to look at HDAS -- it sits by the side of my bed, but somehow a couple of days passed before I got around to noting down and posting the information there. The answer to this is to be found in Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang: Under "G" he has "up in G", meaning "superlative, doing very well", &c, and cites a passage dated 1884, and then 5 from 1894-95, including "Sidewalks" -- evidently it was a voguish expression in the mid 1890s. A for "on the hog", the jazz hounds among you will have of course remembered Bessie Smith's mid 1920s recording of Yellow Dog Blues, words by W. C. Handy. A woman whose easy rider has decamped gets a letter from a friend that he had passed through town on a south-bound rattler, heading for where the Southern cross the Yellow Dog. "I saw him there, and he was on the hog." Lighter defines the expression as "living or travelling as a tramp". His first citation is "Sidewalks", then another 1896 source, and also 1897, 1899 and Yellow Dog Blues". My posting concluded with the advice that "Every library specializing in American history ought to own this dictionary and keep it in the reading room." I haven't gotten anywhere at the N-Y Historical Society with this suggestion, and don't have much hope for the Oneonta HS, et al., but I've tried. Meanwhile, Rachel Bliven posted a speculation which, if I may say so, is a slight improvement on HDAS's explanation of the term. "I haven't seen the sheet music, but could the "G" be a musical reference, as in the top of the musical scale? It would be a familiar reference to the generation who first sang the song around the piano." HDAS refers it to the key of G, rather than to the top note of the 8-note scale. I don't know the participants in this discussion. They may all have been history buffs and not professionals in local history, though in general the list attracts museum curators, librarians, &c. Even so, it's a prime example of the way that a queston about words brings out enthusiastic speculation and not "let's look it up in the appropriate dictionary". How many are surprised that Michael Cassidy is still holding out for "g" being "jail"? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:53:10 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:53:10 -0500 Subject: fideo (1890) Message-ID: Seen in today's Poughkeepsie Journal: Marquez, whose parents immigrated directly to Chicago from Mexico, said he?s seen variation of fideo dishes in Spain and all over Mexico. He said La Moderna, which is made in Mexico, is another popular fideo brand. He said he?s certain fideo recipes predate the yellow box?s ?since 1910.? ?Fideo is Tex-Mex for pasta,? Poughkeepsie Journal, March 2, 2005, p 5D Robert S. Peabody wrote in Harper's New Monthly Magazine, July 1890, p 238: The Mexican cooking, though Americans have a prejudice against it, is exceedingly appetizing, but for most palates too highly peppered, chile entering largely into the composition of every dish. Yet it is a rare good feast one can have by ordering the following bill of fare: Sopa de Fido. Gallina con Chile. Tamales. Frijoles Mejicana. Enchiladas. Chile con Carne. Tortillas. Salza de Chile. Pastel de Limon. Granadas de China. Cafe. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:54:17 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:54:17 -0500 Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: roil, v. def. 1 = disturb, unsettle (as waters) def. 2 = rile; vex rile, v. def. 1 = vex def. 2 = roil; disturb, unsettle (of waters) So in WBD, W11, RHWCD, AHD (no usage note). Alan Baragona on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 10:33 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Alan Baragona >Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York = >Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and = >"rile" lexically separate. > >Alan Baragona=20 > >______________________________________________=20 >From: Ayres, Drummond =20 >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM=20 >To: Baragona, Alan=20 >Subject: RE: NY Times usage question=20 > >People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the = >time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- = >and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the = >3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, = >that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the = >desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such = >matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the = >assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) = >preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of = >the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I = >take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting = >riled and waters getting roiled??? From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 01:55:40 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:55:40 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:54:17 PM Message From: Barnhart Subject: Re: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question To: Alan Baragona Cc: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU roil, v. def. 1 = disturb, unsettle (as waters) def. 2 = rile; vex rile, v. def. 1 = vex def. 2 = roil; disturb, unsettle (of waters) So in WBD, W11, RHWCD, AHD (no usage note). Alan Baragona on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 10:33 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Alan Baragona >Subject: Roil/Rile NY Times usage question >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FW: NY Times usage questionThis, from a 35 year veteran of the New York = >Times, supports the speculation that the Times considers "roil" and = >"rile" lexically separate. > >Alan Baragona=20 > >______________________________________________=20 >From: Ayres, Drummond =20 >Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:56 AM=20 >To: Baragona, Alan=20 >Subject: RE: NY Times usage question=20 > >People get riled; waters get roiled --- more or less .... Most of the = >time, at least when i was at the Times, Webster's 3rd was the Bible -- = >and since Webster had moved on to another edition/s, the copies of the = >3rd that were on the research desks were mighty fragile ... physically, = >that is .... and over time, other dictionaries began to show up on the = >desks also ... and the Times became a little more looseygoosey on such = >matters ... but essentially the editors (there are a couple who are the = >assigned specialists in such matters -- Alan Siegal in particular) = >preferred the 3rd -- at least while i was there ...i've got a copy of = >the 3rd at home in NYC ... will check it on the next NYC jaunt ... I = >take it the search you folks did of the times past showed people getting = >riled and waters getting roiled??? From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:04:35 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:04:35 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? In-Reply-To: <4226264A.5080908@netscape.net> Message-ID: This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. ?Teens? probably didn?t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as adults. I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen?s ?Northanger Abbey,? in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly presented as that category. Part of the interest for this novel is that it is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is referred to as a ?guy.? (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see what I?m sayin?. In querying my classes, over several years, they (male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female groups being referred to as ?guys,? by either male or female speakers. But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. Jim Stalker Patti J. Kurtz writes: > I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question > is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer > to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two > guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? > > Anyone have thoughts on that? > > Thanks! > -- > > Dr. Patti J. Kurtz > > Assistant Professor, English > > Director of the Writing Center > > Minot State University > > Minot, ND 58707 > > > > Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. > > > > Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims > that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? > > > > Foster: But we are RIGHT! > > > > Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 01:53:37 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:53:37 -0500 Subject: Shanghai chickens etc., 1852 In-Reply-To: <20050302142532.41588.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >OED has "shanghai" fowl only from 1853. A little earlier from NYT: ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 2 Oct. 1852: p. 2: <> ---------- _New York Daily Times_, 19 Oct. 1852: p. 2: <<_Shanghai Sheep._ -- Sheep all the way from China, good reader! Something of a novelty that. We are accustomed, thanks to Yankee adventure, to the terms, Shanghai chickens, Shanghai eggs, &c., but we had no idea that the subjects of the Brother of the Sun and fifty-third Cousin of the Moon had any knowledge of the value of the wool clip or the taste of mutton chops. ....>> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 02:15:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:15:38 -0500 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they > had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a "guy." This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 years. -- Doug Wilson From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 3 02:17:22 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:17:22 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <200503022104.764422670b5b7@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > > This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. ?Teens? probably >didn?t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, >especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, >members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally >went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as >adults. > Quite right, of course, which makes writing about them from our vantage point doubly difficult. > I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social >context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be >reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, >as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen?s ?Northanger >Abbey,? in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly >presented as that category. > And Little Women, though memory fails me as to how old the girls are in that book. But yes, a great point; young adult literature as we define it, didn't really exist until the very late 19th and early 20th century. Which limits the resources a writer like me has for uncovering teen language from that time period. All of which makes writing young adult historical fiction a massive undertaking. But thanks for the insight, Jim! Patti! > Part of the interest for this novel is that it >is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on >those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from >Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she >is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a ?guy.? (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I >thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see >what I?m sayin?. In querying my classes, over several years, they >(male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female >groups being referred to as ?guys,? by either male or female speakers. >But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. > > >Jim Stalker > > > > >Patti J. Kurtz writes: > > > >>I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question >>is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer >>to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two >>guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? >> >>Anyone have thoughts on that? >> >>Thanks! >>-- >> >>Dr. Patti J. Kurtz >> >>Assistant Professor, English >> >>Director of the Writing Center >> >>Minot State University >> >>Minot, ND 58707 >> >> >> >>Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. >> >> >> >>Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims >>that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? >> >> >> >>Foster: But we are RIGHT! >> >> >> >>Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. >> >> >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:19:55 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:19:55 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <20050302141706.11909.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My family did, but then yall (plural, no question about it), have some sense of my sociolinguistic heritage: KY, not high toned, as we would have said. I didn't learn about intestinal fortitude until I got to UNC. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > Come to think of it, my family did not say "guts" either. > > JL > > Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 09:56 PM 3/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>On Mar 1, 2005, at 7:37 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >> >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>>Subject: strong like ball >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>-------- >>> >>>I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>>I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>>was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, >>>Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). >>> >>>While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>>humorously formal alternative to "guts." >> >>FWIW, I've always thought the same. >> >>> Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? >> >>I have no idea, but I've always assumed that to be the case from the >>time that I first recall hearing it, ca. 1945-50. >> >>> I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >>> >>>Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? >> >>AFAIK, no. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >>> Today it seems mostly just informal. >>> >>>-Matt Gordon > > I think it was coarse in my family; we gutted fish, and animal guts were > vile. But then, my mother was the type who said, "Don't say pee, say urinate!" > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 3 02:22:32 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:22:32 -0600 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <200503022115.374226735e35d@rly-na05.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> >> > >This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >years. > > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be ambiguous? Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? Patti >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:26:36 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:26:36 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <20050302143737.18205.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the following to be figurative/metaphorical? To fret one's guts:...to worry To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, merciless. Farmer and Henley: "gut" Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. > In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. > > JL > > "Baker, John" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: > > <> > > Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: > > <> > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gordon, Matthew J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: strong like ball > > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:33:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:33:28 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: Stalker is right. There were no "teens" until the 1920s or '30s. "Guy" is possible, but I'd recommend "fellow." JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. ???Teens??? probably didn???t exist in the 1800s, at least in the sense that we conceive of them, especially in the middling to lower classes. They were young adults, members of the workforce, or soon to be. Between 15 and 17, they generally went to work, with adults, as apprentices. They lived in an adult world as adults. I would guess that teen language reflected their adult social context. In literature, the most likely place their language would be reported, slang, or informal whichever you choose, was rarely represented, as far as I know. One of the few that I know is Austen???s ???Northanger Abbey,??? in which the main female character is a teen, but not overtly presented as that category. Part of the interest for this novel is that it is about a teen and her perceptions (and the unfortunate effect of novels on those perceptions). The only slang that I remember is a hot dude from Oxford, with a chaise. Emma gets more play time in current movies, but she is not, I think, equivalent to our modern teens. Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they had to tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is referred to as a ???guy.??? (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see what I???m sayin???. In querying my classes, over several years, they (male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female groups being referred to as ???guys,??? by either male or female speakers. But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. Jim Stalker Patti J. Kurtz writes: > I know that "guy" (fellow) goes back to the mid 1800's. My question > is-- would it have been used by teenagers in that time period to refer > to others of their own age group, as in 'he saw her standing between two > guys." Or is the use of this by teens a more recent phenomenon? > > Anyone have thoughts on that? > > Thanks! > -- > > Dr. Patti J. Kurtz > > Assistant Professor, English > > Director of the Writing Center > > Minot State University > > Minot, ND 58707 > > > > Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. > > > > Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims > that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? > > > > Foster: But we are RIGHT! > > > > Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:41:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:41:44 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: My guess is that "guy" was indeed probably ambiguous into the 1890s. George Ade's "Artie" (1896) uses it frequently as a synonym for "fellow." Stephen Crane's "Maggie, A Girl of the Streets" (1892) doesn't. (The former is set in Chicago, the latter in NYC.) I've never seen it in a Civil War letter, BTW. And Jim - the word "dude" in Jane Austen ? Not possible. JL "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- douglas at NB.NET wrote: >> >> > >This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >years. > > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be ambiguous? Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? Patti >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. Freeman - It's called dedication. Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:46:03 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:46:03 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC (was FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX) In-Reply-To: <99.5927d84d.2f564d4d@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM writes: I > suggest, however, that most people who use "generic" in the Michael-Larry way have > in fact been from the outset strongly influenced by the legal sense of the > term--that is, they are in realilty attempting to use it in a quasi-legal fashion > without understanding the sociolegal implications of their usage. And this > leads to all sorts of confusion. > I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie cups; the South will rise again: syndrome? Jim James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 02:54:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:54:05 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: "Guts, but no bowels" may appear problematic in the light of later usage, but I'm dubious about figuration here since "bowels" were traditionally associated with compassion while literal "guts" were mere bodily organs. "Fret one's guts," if figurative, is only barely so. Worry often causes stomach-aches. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the following to be figurative/metaphorical? To fret one's guts:...to worry To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, merciless. Farmer and Henley: "gut" Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative sense should please do so. > In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. > > JL > > "Baker, John" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University Making of America: > > <> > > Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates the point: > > <> > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Gordon, Matthew J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: strong like ball > > > I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal fortitude"). > > While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. > > Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it seems mostly just informal. > > -Matt Gordon > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 02:54:55 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:54:55 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original post, should anyone want to know. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >> >> So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >> by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >> father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) >> > > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds > that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make > them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee > than in Yankeeland...) > > L > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109741902"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 02:59:20 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:59:20 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in the figurative sense. -Wilson Gray On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the > following to be figurative/metaphorical? > > To fret one's guts:...to worry > To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, > merciless. > > Farmer and Henley: "gut" > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >> sense should please do so. >> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. >> >> JL >> >> "Baker, John" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >> Making of America: >> >> <> >> >> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >> the point: >> >> <> >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >> Behalf >> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: strong like ball >> >> >> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >> fortitude"). >> >> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >> seems mostly just informal. >> >> -Matt Gordon >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:04:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:04:13 -0800 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) Message-ID: I'd guess that the redcoats would have considered the ur-Yankee to live just outside of semi-civilized Boston and eat salt cod for breakfast. Vermont was part of New York in those days, and I propose taking it back ! JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original post, should anyone want to know. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 10:29 PM -0600 3/1/05, Barbara Need wrote: >> >> So would a Mayflower descendant born in Tennessee count as a Yankee >> by this narrowest definition? (Mother born in New Jersey; mother's >> father born in Massachusetts; his parents born in Maine.) >> > > Hmm....Yankee bred but not Yankee born. Mebbe so, on the grounds > that just because a cat has her kittens in the oven it doesn't make > them biscuits. (As I think they're more likely to say in Tennessee > than in Yankeeland...) > > L > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109741902"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:09:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:09:08 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: My grandmother knew "greedy-gut" too, but I only recall her saying it once or twice. "Guts," however, in the plural and with no mitigating modifiers, was not in her active vocabulary. Her synonyms were "nerve" and, where physiology was concerned, "intestines" for people and "innards" for poultry. I don't recall my grandfather saying "guts," either, and I know my mother does not. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in the figurative sense. -Wilson Gray On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder the > following to be figurative/metaphorical? > > To fret one's guts:...to worry > To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, > merciless. > > Farmer and Henley: "gut" > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >> sense should please do so. >> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find much. >> >> JL >> >> "Baker, John" wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >> Making of America: >> >> <> >> >> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >> the point: >> >> <> >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >> Behalf >> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: strong like ball >> >> >> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >> fortitude"). >> >> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >> >> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >> seems mostly just informal. >> >> -Matt Gordon >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 03:18:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:18:12 -0500 Subject: Sdewalks of New York In-Reply-To: <20050302215632.38885.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I heard another distinguished historian on TV a week or so ago >explain that "OK" comes from "Old Kinderhook." > >I guess they hear the story in college and never bother to question >it. I mean, those *are* the initials, right? > >JL Well, as Read himself pointed out, that historian should get part credit, anyway (although perhaps not a passing grade, depending on the curve), since Old Kinderhook, Martin Van Buren, and the Tammany OK Club are part of the "trajectory" of the word--unlike Cherokee "okeh" and whatever is volunteered by those who cry Wolof... Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 03:20:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:20:43 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: >From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : He's not running on all 8 cylinders. Doesn't have both oars in the water. Few cans shy of a six pack! Few bytes short of a K. Driving with one wheel in the sand. It's a shame when first cousins marry. He's running on a low mixture. The cheese fell off his cracker long ago. Ibid., April 25 : He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. Not playing with a full deck? Heck, he doesn't even have a full card. He's as sharp as a bowling ball. Butt ugly & dumb to match. He's got a room-temperature IQ in degrees Celsuis. A bit slow out of the gate. He's doin' 30 on the freeway. He's got it floored in neutral. JL, not familiar with any of these. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 03:34:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:34:54 -0500 Subject: Cheese quote by Charles de Gaulle; Good Health & Bad Memory (Bergman/Schweitzer) Message-ID: "HOW CAN YOU GOVERN A COUNTRY WHICH HAS 246 VARIETIES OF CHEESE?" --Charles De Gaulle. In AM-NEW YORK, EATING WELL, 2 March 2005, pg. 26. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has this from 1962. Various web results have "kinds" for "varieties," and the numbers are 246, 256, and 265. The earliest date seen is 1951. (GOOGLE GROUPS) The French will only be united under the threat of danger. Nobody can simply bring together a country that has 265 kinds of cheese. - Charles A.J.M de Gaulle, Speech, 1951 (GOOGLE GROUPS) Random Quotations "How can one be expected to govern a country with 246 kinds of cheese?" -Charles de Gaulle "Christopher Robin Hood: He steals from the rich and gives to the ... alt.quotations - Feb 26 1993, 11:23 pm by Andy Whitfield - 6 messages - 6 authors (GOOGLE) my abode ? New Quotes I just added a few random quotes from the Quotationary to my quote script at ... a country that has 256 kinds of cheese?? - Charles de Gaulle, 1964 ?What a ... www.arador.org/archives/2004/04/25/new-quotes/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ROUND ABOUT with ART RYON; A New Continental Concept Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 5, 1964. p. A24 (2 pages) Second page: Quote from Premier Charles de Gaulle: "How can you rule a nation that has 246 kinds of cheese?" Quotations New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 12, 1967. p. 215 (1 page): Charles de Gaulle, as quoted in a new book--"The General's Tragedy"--by Jean-Raymond Tournoux: "It is impossible in normal times to rally a nation that has 265 kinds of cheese." Scale Weighs a Fly's Tongue HAL BOYLE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 6, 1968. p. E3 (1 page): Quotable notables: "How do you expect to govern a country that has 246 different kinds of cheese?"--Gen. Charles de Gaulle, of France. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Frederick Post Friday, May 20, 1966 Frederick, Maryland ...that has 246 KINDS OF CHEESE" Gen. CHARLES DE GAULLE. Facts to amaze your.....the red carpet for French PresiDEnt CHARLES DE GAULLE in happy appreciation.. -------------------------------------------------------------- "HAPPINESS IS NOTHING MORE THAN GOOD HEALTH AND A BAD MEMORY." Albert Schweitzer. In AM-NEW YORK, HEALTH, 2 March 2005, pg. 20. Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Did Albert Schweitzer or Ingrid Bergman say this? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Topsy Turvy Science. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 12, 1923. p. 6 (1 page): The scientists seem bent on reversing all established concepts and ideas pertaining to everyday matters. Comes a London savant who lists good memory as a sign of bad health and bad memory as a symptom of good health--to the confusion of a generation that, from its cradle, has been taught the opposite. "One who remembers everything, especially concerning the past," says the Londoner, "is physically in a bad way." Word Gems of Others JOAN WINCHELL. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 3, 1959. p. D4 (1 page): FAMOUS FOLKS (and their famous sayings)--"Let Western Union carry the messages" (Moss Hart)..."It's always too soon to quit" (Henry Ford)..."Happiness is nothing more than good health and a bad memory" (Dr. Albert Schweitzer)..."Ninety per cent of all millionaires became so by investing in real estate" (Andrew Carnegie). "ALL HUMAN WISDOM is summed up in two words: wait and hope" (Alexandre Dumas)..."All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" (Edmund Burke). UNKNOWN (unfortunately)--"The best way to help yourself is to help others"..."He is strongest who has conquered self"..."Serving others is the way we pay rent for our lease on life"..."The poor we have always with us because the rich go away for the summer and winter." INDIAN PRAYER--"Grant that I may not criticize my neighbor until I have walked a mile in his mocassins." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Post Standard Friday, June 05, 1987 Syracuse, New York ...Wish We'd Said Thai Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....to hundreds of people who own cats. GOOD for Them Officials at the Medical.. Mountain Democrat Monday, October 26, 1987 Placerville, California ...odds AND frozen ends Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....chart here finds September isn't a GOOD indicator of the total rain year.. Frederick Post Tuesday, September 20, 1994 Frederick, Maryland ...A-2. GOOD morning Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....four years he said. "She's not that GOOD of a baker so I jumped in." This.. Frederick Post Monday, March 27, 1995 Frederick, Maryland ...A2. GOOD morning Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. -IngridBergman.....welfare reform proposal AND a host of HEALTH care bills are also on the agenda.. Wellsboro Gazette Wednesday, April 10, 1996 Wellsboro, Pennsylvania ...for recyling -Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY. -Ingrid Bergman.....AND shall maintain its system in GOOD repair AND working order Section 8.. The Columbus Evening Dispatch Monday, July 21, 1997 Columbus, Ohio ...Thought for today: "Happiness is GOOD HEALTH AND a BAD MEMORY." Bergman.....Lotto: The Kicker: 420038 ALMANAC GOOD morning. Today is Monday, July 21.. Wellsboro Gazette Wednesday, October 14, 1998 Wellsboro, Pennsylvania ...is too GOOD to receive. Fuller is GOOD HEALTH AND BAD MEMORY. Ingrid Bergman.....Steven AND Michelle Foster, Jerome AND Jessica Werkheiser; one sister AND.. Pg. 6, col. 5: --Happiness is goof health and bad memory. --Ingrid Bergman From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 03:47:55 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:47:55 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:54 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: >I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on this >site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but from >the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for >defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give me >a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the original >post, should anyone want to know. > >Jim I would. I just tried an archive search and didn't come up with it, although there was one of Barry's involving "R U A Yankee" diagnostics from the eponymous monthly that looked promising for a moment. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 03:59:26 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:59:26 -0500 Subject: Cheese quote by Charles de Gaulle (1958, 1962) Message-ID: "De Gaulle" and "cheese" turns up a lot of hits. But I searched some more and dusted the Oxford Dictionaty of Quotations (2004). (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) De Gaulle Surprises the Doubters; Many expected him to be a man on horseback, but his first month as Premier has shown him to be a man of moderation, acutely conscious of history's judgment. De Gau!le Surprises the Doubters By NICHOLAS WAHLPARIS.. New York Times (1857-Current. Jun 29, 1958. p. SM9 (4 pages): Fourth page: "How can one conceive of a one-party system," he is reported to have said, "in a country that has over 200 varieties of cheeses." Entertainment; Tender Gripes in Wine Country Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 10, 1962. p. C9 (1 page): DE GAULLE SAID recently, "How can you govern a country with 246 varieties of cheese?" From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 04:09:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:09:18 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, tempora! O, mores! -Wilson On Mar 2, 2005, at 10:09 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My grandmother knew "greedy-gut" too, but I only recall her saying it > once or twice. "Guts," however, in the plural and with no mitigating > modifiers, was not in her active vocabulary. Her synonyms were > "nerve" and, where physiology was concerned, "intestines" for people > and "innards" for poultry. I don't recall my grandfather saying > "guts," either, and I know my mother does not. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > As is usual with me, I can't provide a cite, but my grandparents, born > in the 1870's, used the term "greedy-gut" as a synonym for "glutton" in > the figurative sense. > > -Wilson Gray > > On Mar 2, 2005, at 9:26 PM, James C Stalker wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: strong like ball >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Just because I have my Farmer and Henley at hand, would you consder >> the >> following to be figurative/metaphorical? >> >> To fret one's guts:...to worry >> To have plenty of guts, but no bowels: To be unfeeling, hard, >> merciless. >> >> Farmer and Henley: "gut" >> >> Jim Stalker >> >> Jonathan Lighter writes: >> >>> And anyone who can supply 19th C. exx. of "guts" in a figurative >>> sense should please do so. >>> In the days before search engines and databases, I couldn't find >>> much. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> "Baker, John" wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Baker, John" >>> Subject: Re: strong like ball >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> --------- >>> >>> Yes, "guts" used to be considered coarse. Here's an illustrative >>> quotation from Richard Grant White, A Desultory Denunciation of >>> English Dictionaries, in The Galaxy (1869), via Cornell University >>> Making of America: >>> >>> <> >>> >>> Here's an 11/22/1928 use of "intestinal fortitude" from the online >>> Harvard Crimson (Merriam-Webster has c. 1937), which also illustrates >>> the point: >>> >>> <> >>> >>> >>> John Baker >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On >>> Behalf >>> Of Gordon, Matthew J. >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 7:38 PM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: strong like ball >>> >>> >>> I heard a new-to-me phrase on the radio: "testicular fortitude" which >>> I took to be a form of "intestinal fortitude" gone south. The context >>> was a local sports program discussing a particular coach. As >>> expected, Google show 11k hits for it (cf. 63k for "intestinal >>> fortitude"). >>> >>> While I'm at it, I'd always thought of "intestinal fortitude" as a >>> humorously formal alternative to "guts." Does the evidence suggest it >>> arose as a deliberately funny coinage? I see OED has a 1945 citation >>> from Edgar Bergen/Charlie McCarthy. >>> >>> Also, was "guts" seen as vulgar or coarse at some time? Today it >>> seems mostly just informal. >>> >>> -Matt Gordon >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >>> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >>> >> >> >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English >> Michigan State University >> > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 04:16:37 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:16:37 -0500 Subject: "Western Union" by Moss Hart (1954) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro found earlier for the "Western Union" quote. I thought I'd search it with "Moss Hart," as per a previous post. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Van Wert Times Bulletin Thursday, August 26, 1954 Van Wert, Ohio ...AND if you have a message. adds MOSS HART, "call WESTERN "UNION." CoDvntlit.....veteran practitioners, Kaulnian AND HART. warns George K mi fin, -in. "is.. Pg. 14, col. 7: Terribly earnest young playwrights, without a vestige of humor in their make-ups, are advised to pay heed to those veteran practitioners, Kaufman and Hart. "Whimsy," warns George Kaufman, "Is what closes Saturday night." "And if you have a message," adds Moss Hart, "call Western Union." ("Try and Stop Me" by Bennett Cerf--ed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 04:18:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:18:02 -0500 Subject: [sing.] "guy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:04 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: > Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what >they had to >tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >referred to as a "guy." (HDAS, of course, has the citation as well.) I >thought the female reference was much later, like more in our time, you see >what I'm sayin'. In querying my classes, over several years, they >(male and female) are willing to accept mixed gender groups and all female >groups being referred to as "guys," by either male or female speakers. >But guy in the singular is never applicable to a female. > Never? Well, hardly ever. This claim is a bit too strong as it stands. Consider the following counterexamples: (1) Steppenwolf was four people and I'm just one guy. -actress Joan Allen hosting Saturday Night Live, 11/14/98, cited in Clancy, Steven J. (1999), "The ascent of guy" [American Speech 74: 282-97], p. 287. (2) -Your first mistake was telling him [= an abusive caller] your name. -Yeah, but there were only two of us on the phones, and they would have figured it was me because I'm a girl and the other guy is a guy. (3) from "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (the 1992 movie): Merrick (Donald Sutherland) tells Buffy (Kristy Swanson) that she is "The Chosen One" who must fulfill her vampire-killing destiny. But she's not really into her mission and it falls to Pike (Luke Perry) to remind her of her true calling. Pike: But you're the guy! The chosen guy! Buffy: I am the chosen one, and I choose to go shopping. (4) I like sex just as much as the next guy. -Kate Austen on "Chicago Hope" They tend to involve locutions like "the other guy", "the next guy", "the chosen guy", "just one guy", and so on, none of them strictly referential. There's often an explicit or implicit contrast that doesn't involve gender. But the fact remains that these (and many others) do involve singular instances of "guy" that are either female-specific or sex-neutral. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 04:42:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:42:16 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms Message-ID: My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my eyes -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 3 04:49:51 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:49:51 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: <0c3cdc7e9703479788d7fb41ea3776bf@rcn.com> Message-ID: I presume these are testimonials from some of those e-mail advertisements which I deleted unread. What is a "molunk chunk"? -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 05:34:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 00:34:00 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 2, 2005, at 11:49 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: A couple of phallicisms > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I presume these are testimonials from some of those e-mail > advertisements > which I deleted unread. > > What is a "molunk chunk"? > > -- Doug Wilson > Nope, these are genuine folk-descriptions used in the telling of what-a-night-I-had-that-chick-was-so-fine-I-wanted-to-suck-her-daddy's- dick stories. Back in the day, there must have been dozens of these. Unfortunately, that day was a half-century ago, so these few are about all that I can remember. With respect to "molunk chunk," It's a chunk of an imaginary, very hard substance invented to fill out the brag. -Wilson Gray From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 06:19:53 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:19:53 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22guy=22?= used by teens? In-Reply-To: <20050303024144.43561.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Re: dude. Quite right, as anyone who follows this list knows. Cohen, et al have covered the dude topic quite thoroughly. (I've even thrown in my penny's worth.) I was trying to inject a bit of 20th C to provide contrast. The young gentleman, a bounder mayhap, was indeed a dude (or some such, in modern terms). Either Austen had no similar appropriate term, or chose not to use one. Both are interesting possibilities. Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > My guess is that "guy" was indeed probably ambiguous into the 1890s. George Ade's "Artie" (1896) uses it frequently as a synonym for "fellow." Stephen Crane's "Maggie, A Girl of the Streets" (1892) doesn't. (The former is set in Chicago, the latter in NYC.) > > I've never seen it in a Civil War letter, BTW. > > And Jim - the word "dude" in Jane Austen ? Not possible. > > JL > > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz" > Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > douglas at NB.NET wrote: > >>> >>> >> >>This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today >>(HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so >>(HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 >>years. >> >> > Which raises the question for me of whether, if someone referred to > another person as a "guy" in, say 1899, which meaning would the word > have? HDAS lists the first meaning of "guy" with cites up into the 20th > century and the 2nd meaning (fellow) as early as the 1870's. > > So does that mean both meanings were current during the 1890's? So if a > character thought of someone else as a "guy," the meaning could be > ambiguous? > > Maybe I'd better stick with "boys." Or am I making too much of this? > > > Patti > >>-- Doug Wilson >> >> > > -- > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster? > > > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess. > > > > Freeman - It's called dedication. > > > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 06:25:12 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:25:12 -0500 Subject: Yankees; was Re: FRIGIDAIRE and KLEENEX (was ICE BOX) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The search is on my agenda. Jim Laurence Horn writes: > At 9:54 PM -0500 3/2/05, James C Stalker wrote: >> I, a non-yankee by any measure but the international one, was told, on >> this >> site some years ago, that te ur-yankee was not only from Vermont, but >> from >> the Green Mountains and ate apple pie for breakfast. How's that for >> defining sociolinguist variables? That paraphrase is from memory. Give >> me >> a few days and I can probably find the poster, and maybe even the >> original >> post, should anyone want to know. >> >> Jim > > I would. I just tried an archive search and didn't come up with it, > although there was one of Barry's involving "R U A Yankee" > diagnostics from the eponymous monthly that looked promising for a > moment. > > Larry > > > -- > This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve > security, as described below. > > Sanitizer (start="1109821676"): > ParseHeader (): > Ignored junk while parsing header: > > SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"): > Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"): > Enforced policy: accept > > > See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information. James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 06:55:35 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) Message-ID: I went through the NYPL's Collection of West Viriginia Folklore (1951-1958). It looks like it was typed on carbon paper and run off.Some familiar stuff is here. Each issue of just a few pages had a theme, such as ghosts or children's rhymes. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, 1951, volume 1 Pg. ? Settin' on the doorstep Chewin' bubble gum, Along came a nigger, And asked for some. No, you dirty nigger, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a whippin', Than give you some. Rinny Tin Tin, Swallowed a pin, Went to the doctor, Doctor wasn't in, Knocked on the door, Door fell in, That was the end of Rinny Tin Tin. I went downtown to see Miss Brown, She gave me a nickel to buy a pickle; The pickle was sour, so she gave me a flower; THe flower was red, so she gave me a thread; The thread was black, so she gave me a smack; The smack was hard, so she gave me a card; And on that card was "Red Hot Pepper." Cry baby, cry, Stick your finger in your eye, Go tell your mama it wasn't I. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1952, Vol. II, no. 3 Pg. 3: (Five) more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery; No more lessons, no more chalk, No more teachers' sassy talk! (Ten) more days till vacation Back to civilization! School's out! School's out! Teacher let the mules out! No more pencils, no more books; No more teachers' sassy looks! (Warnings not to steal) Don't steal this book, my little lad, For fifty cents it cost my dad. Steal not this book for fear of shame, For in it is the owner's name; And when you're dead the devil will say, "Where is that book you stole away?" Small is the wren, Black is the rook; Blacker is the sinner Who steals this book. Steal not this book, My honest friend, For fear the gallows Will be thy end. Pg. 4: Teacher, Teacher, I declare I see bedbugs in your hair. Pg. 6: Sitting on the door step, Chewing bubble gum, Along came a beggar And asked for some. "No, you dirty beggar, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a licking Than give you some!" Johnny over the ocean, Johnny over the sea, Johnny broke a milk bottle And blamed it on me. I told Ma, Ma told Pa, Johnny got a licking, Ha, ha, ha! I'm a little Dutch girl dressed in blue; These are the things that I can do; Salute to the Captain, bow to the Queen, Touch the bottom of the submarine. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Ford bumper. (Touching child's forehead) Tom Tinker. (Eyebrows) Eye winker. (eyelashes) Nose smeller. (Nose) Mouth eater. (Mouth) Chin Chopper. (Chine) Gully, gully, gully. (Tickling child under the chin.) Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) Knock on the door, (Tap forehead with knuckles) Peep in, (Touch eyelids) Lift the latch (Pull nose) And walk in. (Touch mouth) Here is the church, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down) This is the steeple; (Point first fingers up for steeple) Open the door And see the people. (Turn clasped hands upside down to show inside of church and people with fingers) Here's my mother's knives and forks (Clasp hands with palms up and fingers pointed out) Here's my mother's table, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down and knuckles level) Here's my lady's looking glass (Lift thumb and first knuckles) And this is the baby's cradle. (Raise first and fourth fingers and rock) Pg. 14: As I went up the heeple steeple, There I met a heap of people. Some were black, an some were blacker, Some were the color of a chew of tobacker. (Ants) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Winter 1958, vol. VIII, no. 2, Old Autograph Album Issue Pg. 21: Remember me at morning Remember me at night Remember me my truest friend And don't forget to write. March 26, 1888 Pg. 21: Love many; Trust few; Always paddle Your own canoe. March 30, 1900 Pg. 22: Be good; be true; And always paddle your own canoe. New York girls are pretty; Boston girls are smart; But it takes a West Virginia girl To break a young man's heart. Dec. 7, 1937 [From SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA (1954) by B. A. Botkin, taken from NEW MASSES, vol. XXVII (May 10, 1938), no. 7, section two, pg. 109: The Brooklyn girls are tough, The Brooklyn girls are smart, But it takes a New York girl To break a fellow's heart!] Pg. 23: Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard To get her daughter a dress; When she got there the cupboard was bare; And so was her daughter, I guess. Jan. 28, 1938 Remember me in friendship; Remember me in love; Remember me, dear friend, In our better home above. Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust; If you don't go to heaven, To _school_ you must. If the river was whiskey; And I were a duck, I'd dive to the bottom And never come up. When you get married And live in the South, Remember me by My big mouth. Yours till kitchen sinks. If in heaven we don't meet, Hand in hand we'll stand the heat. Yours till the pillow slips. Love many; trust few; Always paddle your own canoe. Yours till window pains. (panes) Pg. 24: When you get poor and have no hay, Just sign up on the W.P.A. Love is like a lump of gold, Hard to get and hard to hold. Yours until the moon turns over. When heaven draws back its curtain, And pins it with a star, Remember you always have a friend, No matter where you are. Jan. 19, 1939 Pg. 27: When you're in love, it's hearts; When your engaged, it's diamonds; When you're married, it's clubs; And when you die, it's spades. 1/12/37 When you get married And live in a flat, Send me a picture Of your first little brat. Yours until horse flies. Dec. 8, 1937 As sure as the vine Goes round the stump, I am your darling Sugar lump. (Note: No. 70 is an old one. I found this, or much the same thing in an old album written in 1866. Ed.) Love many; hate few; Always paddle your own canoe. (Note: Variations of this seem to be in all albums. Ed.) Pg. 28: Can't write; too dumb; Inspiration won't come. Blue ink; blue pen, Good Luck! Amen. There's old ship; THere's new ship, But there's no ship Like friendship. Pg. 29: U R 2 sweet 2 be ------- 4 gotten When you get married and think your husband is sweet, Pull off his hoes an smell his feet. Don't make love by the garden gate, Because love is blind, but the neighbors ain't. City of pans, state of dishes; Lots of love, and plenty of kisses. Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf; I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself. You're my all-day study, my midnight dream, Sweet in my coffee, my cold ice cream. Early to bed, Early to rise, And your girl goes out With other guys. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1958, Vol. VIII, no. (?) Pg. ? Sitting on the front porch, Chewing chewing gum; Along came a Nigger and (beggar?) Asked for some. "No, you dirty Nigger! (beggar?) No, you son-of-a-gun. I wouldn't give you none For a great big bum!" (This is a variation of a similar one in _West Virginia Folklore_ (II, 3) and _Hosier Folklore_, (VII, 1). Pg. 40: New York. (or New Orleans) Here we come. Where you from? New York. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some. Pg. 45: Oh, Margarite, go wash your feet! The board of health is down the street. Tell--tale--tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the dogs about the town Shall have a little bit. You liar, you liar, Your pants are on fire! Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Help! Murder! Police! Your father fell in the grease. I laughed so hard, I fell in the lard. Help! Murder! Police! Pg. 46: Want a penny? Go see Jack Benny. Want a nickel? Go suck a pickle. Want a dollar? Go holler. Want a banana? Go play the piano. Julius Caesar, good old geezer, Stuck his head in an ice cream freezer; When the freezer began to freeze, Julius Caesar began to sneeze. Alfred Baker, the undertaker, Stuck his head in a big stone breaker; When the breaker began to break, Alfred Baker began to shake. From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Mar 3 10:16:33 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:16:33 +0000 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: <200503030320.j233Kj6L012660@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : > > He's not running on all 8 cylinders. > > Doesn't have both oars in the water. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. > How about: Two prawns short of a barbie A few slabs short of a patio - Neil Crawford From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Mar 3 10:39:21 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:39:21 +0000 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: <200503030442.j234gQoH005215@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 3/3/05 4:42 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: A couple of phallicisms > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk > > My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 > > My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my eyes > > -Wilson Gray Not so much hard as sweet: "I don't want to do this." I said. He stepped back. He had an erection. "You don't like it?" He rubbed himself with one hand. "My dick's so sweet, it'll give you cavities." -- Susanna Moore, 'In The Cut', Picador, London, 1996, 163 -Neil Crawford (who has come across 'hard as a policeman's nightstick') From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 3 12:40:50 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:40:50 -0000 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: <20050303032043.69715.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Instances provided by Jonathan Lighter: > He's not running on all 8 cylinders. > Doesn't have both oars in the water. > Few cans shy of a six pack! > Few bytes short of a K. > He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. > His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. [etc] Is there a special name for this kind of comparison that implies a deficiency in intellect? I ask because Radio 5 Live, a BBC station, rang me on Monday asking me to do a piece about what they were called and where they came from (I declined, with thanks, having nothing to say). The proposed item was provoked by a refurbished post office which on reopening was found to lack anywhere to despatch letters and which was therefore described as being "one letter box short of a post office". -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 13:14:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:14:36 -0800 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) Message-ID: This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother was One more day and we'll be free >From this school of misery ! No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's dirty looks ! She learned it in the 1890s. Also, the "whiskey / duck" rhyme is commonly found in the "Rye Whiskey" song. JL bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I went through the NYPL's Collection of West Viriginia Folklore (1951-1958). It looks like it was typed on carbon paper and run off.Some familiar stuff is here. Each issue of just a few pages had a theme, such as ghosts or children's rhymes. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, 1951, volume 1 Pg. ? Settin' on the doorstep Chewin' bubble gum, Along came a nigger, And asked for some. No, you dirty nigger, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a whippin', Than give you some. Rinny Tin Tin, Swallowed a pin, Went to the doctor, Doctor wasn't in, Knocked on the door, Door fell in, That was the end of Rinny Tin Tin. I went downtown to see Miss Brown, She gave me a nickel to buy a pickle; The pickle was sour, so she gave me a flower; THe flower was red, so she gave me a thread; The thread was black, so she gave me a smack; The smack was hard, so she gave me a card; And on that card was "Red Hot Pepper." Cry baby, cry, Stick your finger in your eye, Go tell your mama it wasn't I. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1952, Vol. II, no. 3 Pg. 3: (Five) more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery; No more lessons, no more chalk, No more teachers' sassy talk! (Ten) more days till vacation Back to civilization! School's out! School's out! Teacher let the mules out! No more pencils, no more books; No more teachers' sassy looks! (Warnings not to steal) Don't steal this book, my little lad, For fifty cents it cost my dad. Steal not this book for fear of shame, For in it is the owner's name; And when you're dead the devil will say, "Where is that book you stole away?" Small is the wren, Black is the rook; Blacker is the sinner Who steals this book. Steal not this book, My honest friend, For fear the gallows Will be thy end. Pg. 4: Teacher, Teacher, I declare I see bedbugs in your hair. Pg. 6: Sitting on the door step, Chewing bubble gum, Along came a beggar And asked for some. "No, you dirty beggar, No, you dirty bum, I'd rather take a licking Than give you some!" Johnny over the ocean, Johnny over the sea, Johnny broke a milk bottle And blamed it on me. I told Ma, Ma told Pa, Johnny got a licking, Ha, ha, ha! I'm a little Dutch girl dressed in blue; These are the things that I can do; Salute to the Captain, bow to the Queen, Touch the bottom of the submarine. WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Ford bumper. (Touching child's forehead) Tom Tinker. (Eyebrows) Eye winker. (eyelashes) Nose smeller. (Nose) Mouth eater. (Mouth) Chin Chopper. (Chine) Gully, gully, gully. (Tickling child under the chin.) Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) Knock on the door, (Tap forehead with knuckles) Peep in, (Touch eyelids) Lift the latch (Pull nose) And walk in. (Touch mouth) Here is the church, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down) This is the steeple; (Point first fingers up for steeple) Open the door And see the people. (Turn clasped hands upside down to show inside of church and people with fingers) Here's my mother's knives and forks (Clasp hands with palms up and fingers pointed out) Here's my mother's table, (Clasp hands with fingers pointed down and knuckles level) Here's my lady's looking glass (Lift thumb and first knuckles) And this is the baby's cradle. (Raise first and fourth fingers and rock) Pg. 14: As I went up the heeple steeple, There I met a heap of people. Some were black, an some were blacker, Some were the color of a chew of tobacker. (Ants) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Winter 1958, vol. VIII, no. 2, Old Autograph Album Issue Pg. 21: Remember me at morning Remember me at night Remember me my truest friend And don't forget to write. March 26, 1888 Pg. 21: Love many; Trust few; Always paddle Your own canoe. March 30, 1900 Pg. 22: Be good; be true; And always paddle your own canoe. New York girls are pretty; Boston girls are smart; But it takes a West Virginia girl To break a young man's heart. Dec. 7, 1937 [From SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA (1954) by B. A. Botkin, taken from NEW MASSES, vol. XXVII (May 10, 1938), no. 7, section two, pg. 109: The Brooklyn girls are tough, The Brooklyn girls are smart, But it takes a New York girl To break a fellow's heart!] Pg. 23: Old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard To get her daughter a dress; When she got there the cupboard was bare; And so was her daughter, I guess. Jan. 28, 1938 Remember me in friendship; Remember me in love; Remember me, dear friend, In our better home above. Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust; If you don't go to heaven, To _school_ you must. If the river was whiskey; And I were a duck, I'd dive to the bottom And never come up. When you get married And live in the South, Remember me by My big mouth. Yours till kitchen sinks. If in heaven we don't meet, Hand in hand we'll stand the heat. Yours till the pillow slips. Love many; trust few; Always paddle your own canoe. Yours till window pains. (panes) Pg. 24: When you get poor and have no hay, Just sign up on the W.P.A. Love is like a lump of gold, Hard to get and hard to hold. Yours until the moon turns over. When heaven draws back its curtain, And pins it with a star, Remember you always have a friend, No matter where you are. Jan. 19, 1939 Pg. 27: When you're in love, it's hearts; When your engaged, it's diamonds; When you're married, it's clubs; And when you die, it's spades. 1/12/37 When you get married And live in a flat, Send me a picture Of your first little brat. Yours until horse flies. Dec. 8, 1937 As sure as the vine Goes round the stump, I am your darling Sugar lump. (Note: No. 70 is an old one. I found this, or much the same thing in an old album written in 1866. Ed.) Love many; hate few; Always paddle your own canoe. (Note: Variations of this seem to be in all albums. Ed.) Pg. 28: Can't write; too dumb; Inspiration won't come. Blue ink; blue pen, Good Luck! Amen. There's old ship; THere's new ship, But there's no ship Like friendship. Pg. 29: U R 2 sweet 2 be ------- 4 gotten When you get married and think your husband is sweet, Pull off his hoes an smell his feet. Don't make love by the garden gate, Because love is blind, but the neighbors ain't. City of pans, state of dishes; Lots of love, and plenty of kisses. Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf; I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself. You're my all-day study, my midnight dream, Sweet in my coffee, my cold ice cream. Early to bed, Early to rise, And your girl goes out With other guys. WEST VIRIGINIA FOLKLORE, Spring 1958, Vol. VIII, no. (?) Pg. ? Sitting on the front porch, Chewing chewing gum; Along came a Nigger and (beggar?) Asked for some. "No, you dirty Nigger! (beggar?) No, you son-of-a-gun. I wouldn't give you none For a great big bum!" (This is a variation of a similar one in _West Virginia Folklore_ (II, 3) and _Hosier Folklore_, (VII, 1). Pg. 40: New York. (or New Orleans) Here we come. Where you from? New York. What's your trade? Lemonade. Show us some. Pg. 45: Oh, Margarite, go wash your feet! The board of health is down the street. Tell--tale--tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the dogs about the town Shall have a little bit. You liar, you liar, Your pants are on fire! Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Help! Murder! Police! Your father fell in the grease. I laughed so hard, I fell in the lard. Help! Murder! Police! Pg. 46: Want a penny? Go see Jack Benny. Want a nickel? Go suck a pickle. Want a dollar? Go holler. Want a banana? Go play the piano. Julius Caesar, good old geezer, Stuck his head in an ice cream freezer; When the freezer began to freeze, Julius Caesar began to sneeze. Alfred Baker, the undertaker, Stuck his head in a big stone breaker; When the breaker began to break, Alfred Baker began to shake. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 13:57:37 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:57:37 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: <20050303131437.79679.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 05:14:36AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, the "whiskey / duck" rhyme is commonly found in the "Rye Whiskey" song. And loads of blues songs, most prominently (perhaps) Sleepy John Estes' "Diving Duck Blues". I've always liked the version in Furry Lewis' "I Will Turn Your Money Green". Jesse Sheidlower OED From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 14:04:43 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:04:43 EST Subject: COKE in the South Message-ID: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > > > I like this.? Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those > non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the term and > are rejecting it.? Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie cups; the > South will rise again: syndrome? > > Jim > COKE is an important example, and In thank Jim for reminding me of it and making me give it some more thought. JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, there use is plural. I didn't mean to suggest that there may not be some examples of partial genericide still underway in contemporary culture. TRAMPOLINE is a fairly recent example of a term that lost its trademark status. THERMOS is another that has some kind of borderline status. Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, of course, modern advertising. And, no, they are not "rejecting" the specific association of COKE with COCA COLA, though they may be making a parallel use of the word. Note that this process is not peculiar to trademarks. For example, "french" is sometimes used as a verb meaning 'kiss with the mouth open and the tongue protruding'. But people who say, "Tom frenched Tony" are not thereby "rejecting" the association (of the phonemic sequence found in "french") with the proper noun "French." Obviously, there is something of a genericide continuum for trademarks and erstwhile trademarks from true generics (aspirin) to trademarks that are never used generically. Again, all I am suggesting is that it behooves us as linguists and lexicographers to use terminology that reflects the linguistic knowledge of native speakers as accurately and fully as possible. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 14:18:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:18:57 EST Subject: KLEENEX RUBBER PANTIES Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 11:46:25 AM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes: > All this is true only if you ignore popular usage. ? And why would a > linguist do that? > > If I heard someone ask for "a tissue," I would think they were being either > affected or perhaps pathologically conscious of trademark law. ? I never > heard of "Kleenex rubber panties" and have a hard time picturing something > that's both rubber and made of kleenex. > I think your tongue must at least be touching your cheek here. So far as I know, you are correct in suggesting that Kleenex does not actually make rubber panties, but "Kleenex rubber panties" obviously means 'rubber panties made by Kleenex'--not rubber panties made of facial tissues. Kleenex does in fact market Kleenex brand dinner napkins and Kleenex brand dinner napkin dispensers; I doubt seriously that anyone (but a child) has ever concluded on the basis of the name that these were made of facial tissues. As for "pathologically conscious of trademark law," I don't deny that the shorthand use of "Kleenex " in ordinary conversation is commonplace, perhaps even dominant in informal conversation. However, isn't it also true that people who do so do so with the knowledge that what they are doing is in fact shorthand, and that under the right compelling circumstances they would resort to the word "facial tissue" or some other generic term for the thing they were trying to refer to? Try Googling (i.e., 'using a web search engine') for " 'facial tissue' -Kleenex" and you will get 128,000 responses, the first one being from a web site that offers to help one purchase "facial tissues." Sure, some of these entries are from the manufacturers of competing products who do not want to be sued by the Kleenex brand owners, but most are not. And few, I think are "pathological." Rather, in this context it would be confusing to readers to offer to help them buy "kleenex," precisely because readers know that "kleenex" is not REALLY generic. (Granted, anyone who made such a website offer would get a nasty letter from Kleenex's legal department, but while the fear of such a letter may be part of the website-owner's motivation, the lack of clarity of such a use of "kleenex" in this context must surely be paramount). As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage (i.e., taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW about the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be solved by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm not sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not theirs. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:03:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:03:07 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >> >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be archived. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. >> > >How about: > >Two prawns short of a barbie > >A few slabs short of a patio > >- Neil Crawford And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant oversights: "And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too bright, is he, Bernie?" "Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:07:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:07:29 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: The question arose on another list of whether elementary school children have "always" practiced superstitious observances to cause a "snow day" off from school - flushing ice cubes down the toilet, for example. I never heard of this in NYC in the '50s - or anywhere till this week. Does anybody remember such superstitions ? Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 15:09:28 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:09:28 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303150729.23190.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems > to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on > it. ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine of the state education system are a couple of major, red letter events, known as Snow Days. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:10:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:10:32 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: I heard "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" in the early to mid '90s. "A few bricks short of a pile" has been around for maybe 30 years. "A few sandwiches short of a picnic" showed up just a few years back, in my experience. "Lights are on, nobody home" : early '80s? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >> >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be archived. > > JL, not familiar with any of these. >> > >How about: > >Two prawns short of a barbie > >A few slabs short of a patio > >- Neil Crawford And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant oversights: "And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too bright, is he, Bernie?" "Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." Larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 15:13:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:13:41 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators and teachers to pupils. When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems > to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on > it. ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine of the state education system are a couple of major, red letter events, known as Snow Days. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:19:46 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "One short of complete" is surely a universal. One of my favorites is Polish "Nie ma pianti kelpki," which is (literally) "He/she doesn't have fifth stave." Some old small barrels had five staves. Cute huh? dInIs (Prestonski) >>on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >>> >>> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >>> >>> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >>> > >The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a >happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken >from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be >archived. > >> > JL, not familiar with any of these. >>> >> >>How about: >> >>Two prawns short of a barbie >> >>A few slabs short of a patio >> >>- Neil Crawford > >And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the >Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with >this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon >who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant >oversights: > >"And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too >bright, is he, Bernie?" >"Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." > > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:26:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? [long post] In-Reply-To: <422705D2.25977.70155@localhost> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM +0000 3/3/05, Michael Quinion wrote: >Instances provided by Jonathan Lighter: > >> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >> Few cans shy of a six pack! >> Few bytes short of a K. >> He's a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic. >> His elevator doesn't quite reach the top floor. > >[etc] > >Is there a special name for this kind of comparison that implies a >deficiency in intellect? I mentioned in my last posting, there is--or at least used to be--a web-posted list (from a more general humor site) that collected these under the rubric of "short-of"s. Not the best name, of course, since it's somewhat opaque and--as demonstrated by the above examples (or that "not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave" one I cited)--not always descriptive. And in fact misremembered. Now that I rethink it, they're more frequently called "full-deckisms" (as in what someone is purportedly not playing with). A useful (if not exhaustive) list is available at http://herbison.com/canon/fulldeck.html. larry From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 3 15:58:41 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:58:41 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303150729.23190.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. Barbara From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Mar 3 16:41:02 2005 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:41:02 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suspect it started in the sixties. At that time people started thinking in terms of contact hours. It may have come directly from the Kennedy push for physical fitness and the whole science and space race thing. Even though there were superintendents and boards before then, I don't think anyone really was overly concerned with having the schools set up on some standard imposed from the outside. When my dad was a superintendent in the fifties a little before I came along, each school system decided on the specifics of the school year--or at least that is the impression I got from things he told me. Barbara Need wrote: > At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >> be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. > > > 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in > Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if > we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. > > Barbara From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 16:53:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:53:38 -0500 Subject: KLEENEX RUBBER PANTIES In-Reply-To: <1e9.3704076f.2f5876d1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 9:18 AM -0500 3/3/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage (i.e., >taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to >what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW about >the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." I take your point, but (without retrotting out the arguments I've already advanced in this thread) I think you're still underestimating the possibility that what speakers know is that "kleenex" and similar words are in fact autohyponymous, in which case their *use* as generics reflects speakers' *knowledge* of their meaning, as with "Yankee" and other instances of...can we call them "concentrics"? >It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be solved >by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at >least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm not >sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not >theirs. In fact I've used these labels for a somewhat different case, that of *man*, in which (as others have argued before me) speakers don't in fact behave as though there is a true gender-neutral meaning, but at the same time there is a sense that isn't strictly male-referential. (In the paper Steve Kleinedler and I presented on this at the LSA a few years ago, we invoked Roschian prototypes to provide the appropriate model for what we called "QG [quasi-generic] _man_".) I'd argue that this isn't quite the same as "kleenex", which really does mean 'facial tissue'. Our paper was a response to an influential paper by the philosopher Janice Moulton, who claimed that the notion of "parasitic reference", as defined by genericization of "kleenex" for 'tissue', "clorox" for 'bleach', etc., should be extended to the case of "man", and we pointed out various differences between the two cases leading us to reject this identification, including the obvious historical one ("kleenex" involved broadening, "man" involved narrowing). At the same time we suggested that her analysis would be directly applicable to the history and current status of "guy(s)". There too, as with "kleenex" or "clorox" or "xerox", we do (I'd argue) need to invoke autohyponymy, not just careless uses, especially for those speakers who can have an individual woman in mind in referring to "the other guy", "the next guy", "just one guy", etc., but arguably also for those (possibly now a majority) who can refer to mixed-sex or all female groups as "(those) guys". I'd vote to reserve "quasi-generic" for those cases where no true generic sense is involved, as with (according to me) "man", as opposed to those where a generic and a specific sense exist side-by-side, as with (according to me) "kleenex" or "guy(s)". YMMV, of course. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 17:07:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:07:16 -0800 Subject: Cheese fallen off your cracker? Message-ID: If "one short of complete" is a universal, where are examples from, say, pre-1960s English ? JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "One short of complete" is surely a universal. One of my favorites is Polish "Nie ma pianti kelpki," which is (literally) "He/she doesn't have fifth stave." Some old small barrels had five staves. Cute huh? dInIs (Prestonski) >>on 3/3/05 3:20 am, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: Re: Cheese fallen off your cracker? >>> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--> - >>> >>> From "Cliches (Was Re: Schoolhouse Ro)," rec.humor, April 15, 1991 : >>> >>> He's not running on all 8 cylinders. >>> >>> Doesn't have both oars in the water. >>> > >The gold standard for me is still "a few french fries short of a >happy meal". I recall posting a compilation of "short-ofs" (taken >from a web site devoted to the topic) a few years ago that should be >archived. > >> > JL, not familiar with any of these. >>> >> >>How about: >> >>Two prawns short of a barbie >> >>A few slabs short of a patio >> >>- Neil Crawford > >And of course the process is productive. In _The Burglar on the >Prowl_ (2004), Lawrence Block has his burglar-narrator come up with >this one, in reference to an unethical philandering plastic surgeon >who gets himself into some very serious trouble by his own arrogant >oversights: > >"And he showed her Cuckoo's picture anyway?" Ray said. "Not too >bright, is he, Bernie?" >"Not the sharpest scalpel in the autoclave", I allowed, "but..." > > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 17:23:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 09:23:44 -0800 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: So there are at least three kinds of "snow days" in current English : 1. a snowy day. [Presumably a nonlexicalized conversational phrase in use now and again for many decades - or longer.] 2. a notional day set aside during a school year for the possibility that classes might be canceled because of a snowstorm. [In use and lexicalized since at least 1951.] 3. a day when classes are actually or a school closed owing to a snowstorm. [Whether or not a compensatory day will be added at the end of the school term. It's conceivable that classes might be canceled, but that staff is still expected to come to work. In that case, students have a "snow day," but staff does not. Lexicalized when ?] JL Barbara Need wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barbara Need Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. 1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. Barbara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 3 17:38:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:38:39 -0500 Subject: C2C (Cradle to Cradle); Full Deckisms Message-ID: C2C--I don't know if this one has been recorded with all the B2B spinoffs years ago. 3 March 2005, Wall Street, Journal, pg. D1, col. 2: _Beyond Recycling: Manufacturers Embrace "C2C" Design_ (...) The goal is to abandon the cradle-to-grave path of man-made products that end up in garbage dumps and instead make them C2C, or "cradle to cradle." FULL DECKISMS--I discussed a number of these on this list a few years ago. The "cheese fall off your cracker" didn't seem to fit precisely, but it's the same meaning. HARVARD ALUMNI BULLETIN--The NYPL has this, and I thought I'd look for the 1905 alumni dinner and "Cabots talk only to God." The Bulletin is--all together now--off site. "I'm getting it on Saturday, right?" I told the NYPL person. "It takes two days. Come back next week." And so it goes. Back to parking tickets. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 17:50:52 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:50:52 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303151341.76313.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In suburban NY, it was certainly part of core usage by the early 1960s. Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators and teachers to pupils. > > When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? > > JL > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems >>to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on >>it. > > > ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: > > 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine > of the state education system are a couple of major, red > letter events, known as Snow Days. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 3 18:02:41 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:02:41 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303172344.78938.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 09:23:44AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > So there are at least three kinds of "snow days" in current English : > > 1. a snowy day. [Presumably a nonlexicalized > conversational phrase in use now and again for many decades > - or longer.] > > 2. a notional day set aside during a school year for the > possibility that classes might be canceled because of a > snowstorm. [In use and lexicalized since at least 1951.] > > 3. a day when classes are actually or a school closed owing > to a snowstorm. [Whether or not a compensatory day will be > added at the end of the school term. It's conceivable that > classes might be canceled, but that staff is still expected > to come to work. In that case, students have a "snow day," > but staff does not. Lexicalized when ?] 4. extended uses--a day on which a company, etc., is closed owing to a snowstorm; a day on which anything is closed due to any kind of inclement weather; any unscheduled closing of something normally open. E.g. 2005 Wash. Post 25 Feb. A18, I am baffled by how many people freak out because the city shuts down during bad weather. You would think it is the end of the world if we have a snow day. Maybe the real problem is that our city is full of workaholics who can't handle the stress of staying home on a workday. 2003 Wall St. Jrnl 20 Oct. A3 Were a major SARS outbreak to occur in the U.S., the CDC plan envisions possible quarantines of people exposed to SARS... 'Snow day' measures, such as closings of schools and businesses, could be mandated. Jesse Sheidlower OED From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 3 16:44:18 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:44:18 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: _Snow-day_ appears in 1913 (at least, maybe earlier): "We have a man who plays at cleaning off the snow every snow-day." In "The Social Secretary," _Lincoln [Neb.] Daily News_, Dec. 26, 1913, p 4 This sense is, however, not quite the same--just a day of snow. I remember more than one "snow day" in the blizzard of 1947 (suburban NYC region). But, I don't remember at that tender age what people called it. One local school librarian (Hyde Park, N.Y.) remembered no special superstitious behavior. However, her assistant says her daughter will put her pajamas on backwards and dance around the house. There has been no study on the efficacy of this behavior on the atmosphere. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Thursday, March 3, 2005 at 10:58 AM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barbara Need >Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 07:07 -0800 03/3/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems to me to >>be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on it. > >1980s? No, it is certainly earlier than that! I got snow days in >Andover, MA in the 70s. Five were built into the school year, so if >we didn't have any, we ended school a week earlier than planned. > >Barbara > From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 3 18:44:51 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 13:44:51 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <89635decc57411d9c4fe6dea23fad4aa@rcn.com> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. > >So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we could have "chicken every Sunday." >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! > >-Wilson I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, today, on our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million dollar jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the intrusive /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Mar 3 19:27:03 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:27:03 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050302210830.02fd4760@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Then there are the lines in the lord high executioner's aria in The Mikado (enumerating potential candidates for execution who "never would be missed"): "And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy, "And who 'doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try'" I assumed it simply meant she dressed like a man, but was told once that "guy" in the Victorian era--and thus in this passage--had some specific, different meaning which unfortunately I've forgotten. Could it be a reference to the Guy Fawkes effigy of OED sense 1.a.: "The figure is habited in grotesquely ragged and ill-assorted garments"? Or was my informant misinformed and it simply meant a woman who dressed like a man, but who is called a "guy" here just to provide a rhyme with "try"? G&S are obviously evoking some then-current stereotype which is unknown to modern audiences (or at least to me), making the verse obscure. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, March 2, 2005 9:15 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they >> had to >> tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >> referred to as a "guy." > > This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today > (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so > (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 > years. > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 3 19:39:37 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:39:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050303133748.02f1f800@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I caught it and took my little hatchet to it. I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many birds to the big coop in the sky. dInIs >At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >> >>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. > >I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >could have "chicken every Sunday." > >>I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>tempora! O, mores! >> >>-Wilson > >I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, today, on >our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million dollar >jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the intrusive >/l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 19:43:40 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:43:40 -0500 Subject: "guy" Message-ID: There's an interesting contrast between the expression "regular guy" as used in the US & the UK. (This UK usage is probably out of date by several decades!) Whereas here it connotes "true blue," "stand up," "good fellow," &c., in UK it means -- or meant -- a figure of fun, or a foolish-looking, or outlandishly dressed person. These meanings deriving, presumably from the Guy Fawkes effigies carried about and burnt on bonfires on GF day (Nov 5). On the "strong as ball" thread, I've lost the original post & don't remember whence the citation came, but ISTM that mistaking "intestinal" for "testicular" could well arise from mis-hearing or misapprehending this euphemism for "guts," (perhaps from childhood) in a society that is a lot more attentive to testicles than intestines. A. Murie From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 19:51:03 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:51:03 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: <20050303131437.79679.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother was > >One more day and we'll be free >>>From this school of misery ! >No more pencils, no more books, >No more teacher's dirty looks ! > >She learned it in the 1890s. > JL ~~~~~~ The one I was reminded of came from my mother's childhood in St. Louis (she was b. 1905): Once a big molicepan Met a bittle lum, Sitting on a sturbcone, chewing gubber rum. "Hi" said the molicepan, "Won't you simme gome?" "Tixie on your nintype!" Said the bittle lum. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 20:07:46 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:07:46 -0500 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~ Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear "forbid" for both present & past more often than not. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 3 20:23:27 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:23:27 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all my colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > >I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >birds to the big coop in the sky. > >dInIs > > >>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >>could have "chicken every Sunday." From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 3 21:06:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:06:17 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:07 PM -0500 3/3/05, sagehen wrote: > >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>tempora! O, mores! > >>-Wilson >~~~~~~~~~ >Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people >nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear >"forbid" for both present & past more often than not. >AM I'm still trying to figure out the past tense of "forgo". (And no, "decided to forgo" technically doesn't count.) L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 3 21:17:41 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:17:41 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 3:07 PM -0500 3/3/05, sagehen wrote: >> >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >>>tempora! O, mores! >> >>>-Wilson >>~~~~~~~~~ >>Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people >>nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear >>"forbid" for both present & past more often than not. >>AM > >I'm still trying to figure out the past tense of "forgo". (And no, >"decided to forgo" technically doesn't count.) > >L ~~~~~~~~~ Well, it ain't foregone, for sure, so how about "forwent?" AM From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:24:49 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Interesting, Jesse. This usage must have spread from administrators > and teachers to pupils. > > When did it become part of the core vocabulary of American English ? > > JL "*Core* vocabulary"? Isn't that a bit extreme? It's a part of the core vocabulary of American English where snow is a problem, no doubt, but probably nowhere else. The concept of "snow day," from my personal experience is unknown in Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Missouri, and Coastal California. I'd guess that "snow day" is likewise unknown in the rest of the Deep South east of Louisiana. -Wilson > Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: "snow day" superstitions > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 07:07:29AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> Also, what's the earliest date fro "snow day" ? This seems >> to me to be from the ''80s - not that I ever took notes on >> it. > > ProQuest has a delightful 1951 example: > > 1951 N.Y. Times 1 Feb. 24/4 Embedded deeply into the routine > of the state education system are a couple of major, red > letter events, known as Snow Days. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:41:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:41:35 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8adp84@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 1:44 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >> when >> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >> its >> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >> head >> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >> >> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. > > I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we > could have "chicken every Sunday." Watching the chicken's headless body run around used to scare the hell out of me when I was a little kid. At the same time, it was totally fascinating, like a horror movie. BTW, it can also be fun to explain to city-slicker types the origin of that saying about chickens and heads. >> I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >> tempora! O, mores! >> >> -Wilson > > I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, > today, on > our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million > dollar > jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the > intrusive > /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 3 21:59:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 16:59:37 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Great story, dInIs! Fortunately for me - there are several people whose necks I'd love to snap, but I've never killed any animal bigger than a mouse - my branch of the family had moved to St. Louis before the time of that particular rite of passage arrived. -Wilson On Mar 3, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age > phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed > (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting > of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold > its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken > with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I > caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > > I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many > birds to the big coop in the sky. > > dInIs > > >> At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>> abandon. >>> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>> when >>> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>> its >>> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>> head >>> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>> and >>> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >> I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >> we >> could have "chicken every Sunday." >> >>> I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." >>> O, >>> tempora! O, mores! >>> >>> -Wilson >> >> I hear this all the time--no biggie. But re. an earlier thread, >> today, on >> our local radio, I heard a student announcer say "... the 10 million >> dollar >> jackpot drawling...." She was obviously reading a script, so the >> intrusive >> /l/ intrudes even in spite of print. Not uncommon in southern Ohio. > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 22:47:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:47:20 -0800 Subject: "guy" used by teens? Message-ID: It means she dresses like a frightful-looking Guy Fawkes figure. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: "guy" used by teens? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then there are the lines in the lord high executioner's aria in The Mikado (enumerating potential candidates for execution who "never would be missed"): "And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy, "And who 'doesn't think she waltzes, but would rather like to try'" I assumed it simply meant she dressed like a man, but was told once that "guy" in the Victorian era--and thus in this passage--had some specific, different meaning which unfortunately I've forgotten. Could it be a reference to the Guy Fawkes effigy of OED sense 1.a.: "The figure is habited in grotesquely ragged and ill-assorted garments"? Or was my informant misinformed and it simply meant a woman who dressed like a man, but who is called a "guy" here just to provide a rhyme with "try"? G&S are obviously evoking some then-current stereotype which is unknown to modern audiences (or at least to me), making the verse obscure. Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, March 2, 2005 9:15 PM -0500 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> Nonetheless, I went looking in Farmer and Henley to see what they >> had to >> tell us. I was surprised to find an 1837 citation in which a female is >> referred to as a "guy." > > This is of course not exactly the same "guy" = "chap"/"fellow" used today > (HDAS sense 2), but rather the ancestral "guy" = "grotesque person" or so > (HDAS sense 1) which I believe has been obsolete in the US for almost 100 > years. > > -- Doug Wilson ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 22:52:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 14:52:15 -0800 Subject: "strong as ball" Message-ID: I was once upbraided by another grad student for using "guts" conversationally. "Don't say 'guts,'" she complained, "when you mean 'balls.'" She wasn't kidding, either. Go figure. This was in 1975. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: "guy" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There's an interesting contrast between the expression "regular guy" as used in the US & the UK. (This UK usage is probably out of date by several decades!) Whereas here it connotes "true blue," "stand up," "good fellow," &c., in UK it means -- or meant -- a figure of fun, or a foolish-looking, or outlandishly dressed person. These meanings deriving, presumably from the Guy Fawkes effigies carried about and burnt on bonfires on GF day (Nov 5). On the "strong as ball" thread, I've lost the original post & don't remember whence the citation came, but ISTM that mistaking "intestinal" for "testicular" could well arise from mis-hearing or misapprehending this euphemism for "guts," (perhaps from childhood) in a society that is a lot more attentive to testicles than intestines. A. Murie --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:08:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:08:27 -0800 Subject: "among" = "between" Message-ID: This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, "She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering amongst themselves." JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:21:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:21:07 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I wonder if for/bed/ isn't a survival in addition to being a spelling pronunciation. OED lists as ME past-tense forms forbe'ad, forbead, forbet(t), forbed(e), forbed, forbeed. "Forbid" as a past is listed for the 16th through 18th centuries. Apparently somebody just wasn't paying attention for the past 200 years. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I've just heard a character on CSI: NY say for[beid] for "forbade." O, >tempora! O, mores! >-Wilson ~~~~~~~~~ Ho! At least the right word was in the script. Seems that most people nowadays don't even know the form, much less to say "forBAD." I hear "forbid" for both present & past more often than not. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:22:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:22:31 -0800 Subject: strong like ball Message-ID: I don't get it. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: strong like ball ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all my colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > >I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >birds to the big coop in the sky. > >dInIs > > >>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild abandon. >>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, when >>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by its >>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's head >>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>> >>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, and >>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >> >>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that we >>could have "chicken every Sunday." --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 3 23:29:23 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:29:23 -0600 Subject: "among" = "between" In-Reply-To: <20050303230828.71664.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." > >Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the >Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, > >"She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering >amongst themselves." > >JL Actually, this confusion dates to Old English! (Without my dictionary) I remember seeing 'among' as one of the definitions for betweon. Barbara From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:47:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:47:58 -0800 Subject: "among" = "between" Message-ID: Yes, but this is just the opposite ! JL Barbara Need wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barbara Need Subject: Re: "among" = "between" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This tendency has also spread predictably to "amongst." > >Within the past hour, Diane Dimond, summarizing testimony in the >Michael Jackson trial for Court TV, said, > >"She saw them [viz., her brother and Michael Jackson] whispering >amongst themselves." > >JL Actually, this confusion dates to Old English! (Without my dictionary) I remember seeing 'among' as one of the definitions for betweon. Barbara --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 3 23:59:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:59:51 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 00:08:44 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 19:08:44 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050303235951.33371.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > > One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. Loan translation, maybe, but certainly not new. Here's a 1996 use from alt.folklore.urban, where I'm sure I saw it used earlier than that even (but google provides no evidence): . Taking group out of the search field, I found a 1994 thread called "Earworm from hell" in soc.motss. -- Alice Faber From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 4 01:40:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050303235951.33371.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks into one's computer/software). I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the appropriate English "earworm" from 1993. -- Doug Wilson From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Mar 4 01:56:24 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:56:24 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: Does anyone know how old the figurative "Ohrwurm" is in German? As I've posted before, the earliest found for "earworm" so far in English is in the 9/18/1987 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist Bobby Watson: >>"I like to create little earworms," he says. "That way people who don't know the technical side of the music will start humming."<< Word Spy has posted a 12/22/1987 article from The Whole Earth Review, http://www.wordspy.com/words/earworm.asp, talking about Ohrwurms in the figurative sense, so it seems unlikely that the English term could have predated the German term. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Earworm" German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks into one's computer/software). I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the appropriate English "earworm" from 1993. -- Doug Wilson From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Mar 4 01:59:49 2005 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 17:59:49 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050303202355.02fca5e0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad > >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune > >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone > >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > > German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: > according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I > think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively > for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" > in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite > of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However > it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English > "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks > into one's computer/software). > > I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the Paul McFedries covered this a while back. The earliest citation he has is by Howard Rheingold in "Untranslatable words," The Whole Earth Review, December 22, 1987 From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 4 02:13:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:13:47 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that it helps if you're intimately familiar with this killing method. In any case, the wrist twist, when done properly, tears off the chicken's head and pulls out its esophagus. The way dInIs did it, he merely broke the chicken's neck, leaving it otherwise in one piece. He doesn't say so, but it's probably correct to assume that he freaked and dropped the chicken in shock instead of maintaining his hold on the chicken's head and trying again. I certainly would loved to see the expression on dInIs's face when he realized that he had bleeped up. Or, maybe you just had to have been there, city slicker. -Wilson On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Beverly Flanigan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all > my > colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). > > At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >> We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >> phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >> (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >> of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >> its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >> with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >> caught it and took my little hatchet to it. >> >> I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >> birds to the big coop in the sky. >> >> dInIs >> >> >>> At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>> My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>>> abandon. >>>> However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>> used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>>> when >>>> asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>> chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>>> its >>>> head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>>> head >>>> remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>> around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>>> >>>> So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>>> and >>>> a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >>> >>> I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >>> we >>> could have "chicken every Sunday." > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 4 02:22:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:22:10 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, the term that I remember from my childhood as generic, "soda water," has now fallen out of use? -Wilson Gray On Mar 3, 2005, at 9:04 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: COKE in the South > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > >>> >> =20 >> I like this.=A0 Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >> non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >> term an= > d >> are rejecting it.=A0 Does this correlate with the "save your Dixie >> cups; t= > he >> South will rise again: syndrome? >> =20 >> Jim >> =20 > COKE is an important example, and In thank Jim for reminding me of it > and=20 > making me give it some more thought. > > JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be > difficult to=20 > maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME Southerners > sometimes bor= > ders=20 > on the generic. In my experience after living nearly 40 years in > North=20 > Carolina (I haven't checked this against any empirical data), there > are SOME= > people=20 > who use "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks > in=20 > general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number of > immig= > rants=20 > from the North are often confused by such utterances as, "What kind of > cokes= > do=20 > y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, there use is plural. > > I didn't mean to suggest that there may not be some examples of > partial=20 > genericide still underway in contemporary culture. TRAMPOLINE is a > fairly re= > cent=20 > example of a term that lost its trademark status. THERMOS is another > that ha= > s=20 > some kind of borderline status. Sometimes words do indeed undergo what > the=20 > lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some people: > COKE(= > S) may=20 > have some kind of double-meaning for some people, i.e., a dictionary > that=20 > properly describes COKE for some Southerners might should have entry > #1 for=20= > the=20 > trademark status and #2 for the generic use. But such people are a > decided=20 > minority in the US, and I suspect that they are dying out in the face > of dia= > lect=20 > mixture and, of course, modern advertising. And, no, they are not > "rejecting= > "=20 > the specific association of COKE with COCA COLA, though they may be > making a= > =20 > parallel use of the word. Note that this process is not peculiar to > trademar= > ks.=20 > For example, "french" is sometimes used as a verb meaning 'kiss with > the mou= > th=20 > open and the tongue protruding'. But people who say, "Tom frenched > Tony" are= > =20 > not thereby "rejecting" the association (of the phonemic sequence > found in=20 > "french") with the proper noun "French." > > Obviously, there is something of a genericide continuum for trademarks > and=20 > erstwhile trademarks from true generics (aspirin) to trademarks that > are nev= > er=20 > used generically. Again, all I am suggesting is that it behooves us > as=20 > linguists and lexicographers to use terminology that reflects the > linguistic= > knowledge=20 > of native speakers as accurately and fully as possible.=20 > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 02:23:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 21:23:08 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <83c876b105030317597a8510ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0800 3/3/05, Towse wrote: >On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 20:40:43 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >According to Heather Wood and the other fine folks at the Forum for Ballad >> >Scholars (), an "earworm" is a nagging tune >> >that is maddeningly difficult to get out of one's mind. As far as anyone >> >knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of German Ohrwurm, a >>"haunting melody." >> >> German "Ohrwurm" is basically equivalent to English "earwig", I guess: >> according to legend the bug crawls into one's ear and cannot be removed, I >> think. So it would appear likely that the German word was used figuratively >> for "catchy tune" and then crudely 'translated' into English as "earworm" >> in spite of the existence of the 'proper' translation "earwig" and in spite >> of the existence of another (inappropriate) English word "earworm". However >> it is also possible that the loan went the other way, with English >> "earworm" coined by analogy with "computer worm" (something which sneaks >> into one's computer/software). >> >> I find the figurative "Ohrwurm" (German) at Google Groups from 1991, the > >Paul McFedries covered this a while back. > > > >The earliest citation he has is by Howard Rheingold in "Untranslatable >words," The Whole Earth Review, December 22, 1987 Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? By RACHEL KIPP, AP ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, but no cure. ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two songs that are tough to shake. ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Mar 4 03:08:55 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:08:55 -0500 Subject: strong like ball In-Reply-To: <3c0d86f5b7b5366d48283e36abcd5df2@rcn.com> Message-ID: I agree that this sounds awfully ghoulish and hardly laughable--but we country kids grew up seeing lots of ghoulish things! At 09:13 PM 3/3/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I think that it helps if you're intimately familiar with this killing >method. In any case, the wrist twist, when done properly, tears off the >chicken's head and pulls out its esophagus. The way dInIs did it, he >merely broke the chicken's neck, leaving it otherwise in one piece. He >doesn't say so, but it's probably correct to assume that he freaked and >dropped the chicken in shock instead of maintaining his hold on the >chicken's head and trying again. I certainly would loved to see the >expression on dInIs's face when he realized that he had bleeped up. Or, >maybe you just had to have been there, city slicker. > >-Wilson > >On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>I don't get it. >> >>JL >> >>Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: strong like ball >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>This sent me into such gales of laughter that I'm forwarding it to all >>my >>colleagues (one stopped in my doorway and wondered why I was howling). >> >>At 02:39 PM 3/3/2005, you wrote: >>>We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age >>>phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed >>>(which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting >>>of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold >>>its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken >>>with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I >>>caught it and took my little hatchet to it. >>> >>>I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many >>>birds to the big coop in the sky. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >>> >>>>At 11:09 PM 3/2/2005, you wrote: >>>>>My grandmother used both "greedy-gut" and "glutton" with wild >>>>>abandon. >>>>>However, I don't recall that she ever said just plain "gut(s)." She >>>>>used "insides" for chickens or named the individual parts thereof, >>>>>when >>>>>asked. Since we had our own chickens, I saw my grandfather kill a >>>>>chicken by literally wringing its neck. He picked up the chicken by >>>>>its >>>>>head, made a particular movement with his wrist, and the chicken's >>>>>head >>>>>remained in his hand and its body fell to the ground, where it ran >>>>>around like a chicken with its head cut or, rather, torn off. >>>>> >>>>>So, I've seen a literal slap on the wrist, a neck literally wrung, >>>>>and >>>>>a chicken literally running around with its head torn off. >>>> >>>>I have too--in fact, my mother did the chicken-neck wringing so that >>>>we >>>>could have "chicken every Sunday." >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 4 03:13:20 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 22:13:20 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7C@PHEX01.stradley.c om> Message-ID: > Does anyone know how old the figurative "Ohrwurm" is in > German? As I've posted before, the earliest found for "earworm" so far > in English is in the 9/18/1987 issue of Newsday, quoting alto saxophonist > Bobby Watson: > > >>"I like to create little earworms," he says. "That way people > who don't know the technical side of the music will start humming."<< > > Word Spy has posted a 12/22/1987 article from The Whole Earth > Review, http://www.wordspy.com/words/earworm.asp, talking about Ohrwurms > in the figurative sense, so it seems unlikely that the English term could > have predated the German term. I had forgotten the previous thread (or never read it), stupid me. The above dates don't seem decisive (both 1987) but I agree German-to-English is more likely anyway. My little Harrap's Concise German dictionary shows the "Ohrwurm" in question; this book is dated 1982, but I have a 1994 printing so I can't be entirely sure. The Grimm Bros. on-line dictionary does not show it (surprise!). -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Fri Mar 4 06:36:55 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 From: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 Pg. 13: Finger Games Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went down to the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve got home that night And who was left to see the fight? (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. Looking it up, I also found Ruth Rendell's novel _Adam and Eve and Pinch Me_, published in 2001. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 07:02:51 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:02:51 -0500 Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 05:14:36 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This jogged my memory. The entire quatrain I learned from my grandmother >was > >One more day and we'll be free >>From this school of misery ! >No more pencils, no more books, >No more teacher's dirty looks ! > >She learned it in the 1890s. "A few more days and we'll be free >From this school of misery. No more pencils, no more bo[o]ks, No more pencils, no more books." --Lima Daily News (Ohio), June 8, 1920, p. 5 Hard to find early cites for the whole quatrain-- usually only the second couplet is given (or even just the first line of the couplet). There are also a lot of variants for the teacher's looks (Barry mentioned the "saucy" and "sassy" variants in a Jan. 28 post): "No more pencils, no more books..." --Washington Post, Jun 22, 1919, p. 15 --Los Angeles Times, Jun 18, 1921, p. II6 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's horrid looks." --Chicago Tribune, Jun 18, 1921, p. 17 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's angry looks." --Appleton Post Crescent (Wisc.) March 24, 1922, p. 11 --Chicago Daily Tribune, Jun 27, 1931, p. 3 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's saucy looks." --Decatur (Ill.) Daily Review, June 05, 1924 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's sassy looks." --Los Angeles Times, Jun 8, 1924, p. 39 --Washington Post, Jun 11, 1925, p. 2 --Los Angeles Times, Jun 12, 1926, p. 6 --Chicago Daily Tribune, Feb 4, 1929, p. 25 "No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's cross-eyed looks." --Washington Post, Apr 2, 1926, p. 1 The earliest I can find for the "dirty looks" variant is from the New York Times, Jun 24, 1938, p. 18. That article also gives this earlier couplet: "Good-bye, scholars, good-bye, school, Good-bye, teacher, darned old fool." Here's another early one: "Vacation's come, and we are free. No more school for you and me. No more Latin, no more French, No more dunces on a bench." --Los Angeles Times, Jun 29, 1901, p. 16 There are also variants that have the last line as "No more sitting on a hard-wood bench." And there's a similar couplet, "No more Latin, no more Greek / No more sitting on a hard-board seat." --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 07:25:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:25:57 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >From: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), > especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) > >WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >Pg. 13: >Finger Games > >Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >Went down to the river to see the fight. >Adam and Eve got home that night >And who was left to see the fight? > >(When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) > >In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be saved." Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] ----- Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also has: "Acker, backer, soda cracker, Acker, backer, boo! My father chews tobacker, Out goes you." (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") "As I was going to Salt Lake I met a little rattlesnake, He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] It made his little belly ache." "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 10:36:52 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 02:36:52 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My children and their friends learned this as a jump rope chant: "Engine, engine number nine, Going down Chicago line If the train should jump the track, Do you want your money back?" Then it would continue with the jumper jumping to "Yes, no, maybe so" (to answer the question, which is the answer that the jumper finally missed on). "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer Benjamin Zimmer wrote: --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From maberry at MYUW.NET Fri Mar 4 12:03:31 2005 From: maberry at MYUW.NET (Allen Maberry) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:03:31 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: <200503040726.j247Q1R6022119@mxe1.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I grew up with a variation on this from my grandmother (1900-1991). "Adam and Eve and Pinch-me went down to the river to fish. Adam and Eve got drowned so who was left?" allen maberry at myuw.net On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 > Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all > went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be > saved." > Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then > said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] > ----- > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. > ----- > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 12:55:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:55:57 -0800 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny chanting, Acka backa soda cracka, Acka backa boo! Acka backa soda cracka, Out goes you! JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: >Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >From: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), > especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) > >WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >Pg. 13: >Finger Games > >Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >Went down to the river to see the fight. >Adam and Eve got home that night >And who was left to see the fight? > >(When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) > >In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to be saved." Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and then said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] ----- Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also has: "Acker, backer, soda cracker, Acker, backer, boo! My father chews tobacker, Out goes you." (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") "As I was going to Salt Lake I met a little rattlesnake, He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] It made his little belly ache." "Engine number nine, Stick your head in turpentine. Turpentine make it shine Engine number nine." ...etc., etc. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 13:15:41 2005 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:15:41 EST Subject: akdweesh... was sammies Message-ID: Dear All, Subsequent to last month's discussion on "sandwich" and its variations (I'm pitifully late reading my mail), while I believe I missed part of that exchange, I would like to submit a deviation I'm aware of that I don't think made the list, and which might be interesting to some people : akdweesh (pronunciation), akdwich (spelling). This was seeded in the US of A by a French speaker, sojourning for an extended period on the northeast coast. The expression traveled to southeast Florida and then to Chicago, all around the very early 1990s. I heard it used on the northeast coast, in restricted circles. I don't know if it has died out or not, but it could resuscitate. Here's how it works. In French the word "sandwich" is used. It is pronounced /s?dwish/. (I momentarily don't have the IPA on my computer. I'll do my best.) "Sans" /s?/ means "without". "Dwich" means nothing on its own I'm aware of. "Avec", on the other hand, means "with". Substitute "avec" for /s?/ and you get "avecdwich" This declines into /akdwish/, sometimes /akdwitsh/ (obvious English language influence). This can become, with a little inversion /akdwisht/, further declining into /akdwist/ or in its most trimmed form, /dwist/. Hence, "Tu veux un... dwist?" Or as it was passed around in the US, "You want a dwist?" ("Dwist" is of course substitutable by any of its more lengthy above mentioned forms.) For what it's worth. I don't know about Wilson Gray coining "pimpmobile", but I know who coined this one. The name can be supplied upon request. All the best, Lois Nathan From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 14:11:18 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:11:18 -0500 Subject: Apostrophe Message-ID: Colleague's, At the website www.angryflower.com there is a poster with Bob the Angry Flower's rant against misuser's of apostrophe's, some of which are the greengrocer's variety, oft discussed here. dInIs' -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Mar 4 14:32:27 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:32:27 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South Message-ID: From: RonButters at AOL.COM : In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: :: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those :: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the :: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your :: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? : JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be : difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME : Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after : living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this : against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use : "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks : in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number : of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, : "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, : there use is plural. : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the : generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I : suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, : of course, modern advertising... Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, IMObservation), but, that said... I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents of all ages. It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and (i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 15:04:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:04:25 -0500 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <038c01c520c6$fe81cca0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda asked what year it was. What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) as a generic? dInIs >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? > > > >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >: there use is plural. > > > >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >: of course, modern advertising... > >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >IMObservation), but, that said... > >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents >of all ages. > >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. > > > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 15:29:12 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:29:12 EST Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 15:30:57 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:30:57 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20S?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?outh?= Message-ID: Of course, how one says 'soft drink' in Polish does not tell us a thing about the current state of the morpheme COKE in the English language in America (where it has a number of meanings, by the way, that are not associated with soft drinks). In a message dated 3/4/05 10:05:17 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US > sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place > for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had > Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; > seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) > > Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status > than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it > was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, > according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently > displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a > high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian > champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) > > In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order > for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and > was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and > once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda > asked what year it was. > > What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) > as a generic? > > dInIs > > > >From:? ? RonButters at AOL.COM > >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: > > > >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those > >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the > >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your > >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? > > > > > > > >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be > >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME > >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after > >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this > >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use > >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks > >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number > >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, > >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, > >: there use is plural. > > > > > > > >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the > >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some > >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, > >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners > >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the > >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I > >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, > >: of course, modern advertising... > > > >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, > >IMObservation), but, that said... > > > >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can > get > >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from > respondents > >of all ages. > > > >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, > >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and > >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. > > > > > > > >David Bowie? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? http://pmpkn.net/lx > >? ?? Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > >? ?? house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > >? ?? chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > ? ? ? ? Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 15:36:28 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:36:28 -0600 Subject: borrow/lend Message-ID: I searched the newer archives for this reversal, but didn't hit much. is there a way to access the older ones? A student of mine is curious about the origins of this reversal, which she notices in her own speech (North dakota) Thanks either for a re-hash of this or a link to something about it. Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 15:38:32 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:38:32 -0600 Subject: Genericide was Re: COKE in the South Message-ID: > > : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the > : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some > : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for > some people, > : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners > : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the > : generic use. Genericide is not in the OED. >From the Hein Online legal database. Nothing better in Lexis/Nexis, and I don't have Westlaw. Vol 20 No. 1 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. p.7 Fall, 1978 Generic Trademarks, the FTC and the Lanham Act: Covering the Market with Formica; Shipley, David E. " "Genericide," the metamorphosis of a distinctive mark into a generic term, ordinarily results from several factors which often are difficult to identify; concomitantly, the deterioration of the trademark may be equally difficult to abate. " From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 4 15:39:18 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:39:18 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <200503031559841.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html Karen Ellis Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Fri Mar 4 15:44:19 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:44:19 -0600 Subject: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <200503041504.j24F4V1m015836@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: Non-US generic use: When I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for a summer (1997, I think), my se~nora referred to any soft drink as "una coca." Sra. Alvarez would ask, "?Quieres una coca?" and then give me the equivalent of Sprite. At the time, it made me homesick for Alabama. When I worked as a hostess in a restaurant during high school, I would take drink orders from customers. When people said they wanted a coke, I learned I should ask what kind. Rachel Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: COKE in the South > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US > sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place > for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had > Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; > seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) > > Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status > than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it > was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, > according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently > displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a > high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian > champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) > > In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order > for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and > was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and > once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda > asked what year it was. > > What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) > as a generic? > > dInIs > > > >>From: RonButters at AOL.COM >>: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: >> >>:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >>:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >>:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >>:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? >> >> >> >>: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >>: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >>: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >>: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >>: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >>: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >>: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >>: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >>: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >>: there use is plural. >> >> >> >>: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >>: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >>: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >>: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >>: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >>: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >>: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >>: of course, modern advertising... >> >>Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >>IMObservation), but, that said... >> >>I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >>one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >>'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >>only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get >>and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >>in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents >>of all ages. >> >>It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, >>perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts of Idaho and >>(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. >> >> >> >>David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >> Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >> house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 15:48:19 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:48:19 -0600 Subject: Sammies revisited Message-ID: For anyone interested, one of my students here says "sammies" for "sandwich (and her kids do, too). She's 37 and lives near Stanley, ND. Her background is Scots-irish and Norwegian and she's traveled very little outside of ND. They especially like "hammie sammies" : ) Just in case anyone's collecting data on who says this and where. Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 15:56:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:56:31 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:02:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:02:42 -0500 Subject: COKE in the S outh In-Reply-To: <12b.5809e7a7.2f59d931@aol.com> Message-ID: Ron, Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are permitted on this list. dInIs >Of course, how one says 'soft drink' in Polish does not tell us a thing about >the current state of the morpheme COKE in the English language in America >(where it has a number of meanings, by the way, that are not >associated with soft >drinks). > >In a message dated 3/4/05 10:05:17 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> In the early days of the introduction of tooth-destroying US >> sofdranks into then-Communist Eastern Europe, Coke carved out a place >> for itself in Warsaw, but Krakow went for Pepsi. (Poznan also had >> Coke, but I'm not sure of the rest of the national distribution; >> seems to me that Gdansk-Gdynia-Sopot was also Coke territory.) >> >> Since they were "Western," these sofdranks had a much higher status >> than in the US. If you asked for one in even a pretty fancy place, it >> was not brought in a chilled glass (with throat-destroying ice, >> according to local belief), but the bottle itself was prominently >> displayed on the table, so that envious nearby diners could se what a >> high-roller you were. (Much more clout than a bottle of Russian >> champagne, delicious but cheap - and, of course, from the BAD PLACE!) >> >> In those days in Krakow, however, where I had on occasion to order >> for others, I asked for a "Coke" (I actually said "Coca-Cola") and >> was served Pepsi without hesitation, often by a waiter in a tux, and >> once with the bottle lovingly wrapped in a white napkin. I shoulda >> asked what year it was. >> >> What other evidence do we have of non-US use of Coke (or Coca-Cola) >> as a generic? >> >> dInIs >> >> >> >From: RonButters at AOL.COM >> >: In a message dated 3/2/05 9:46:09 PM, stalker at MSU.EDU writes: >> > >> >:: I like this. Southerners, who use Coke generically,(note those >> >:: non-restrictive clause commas) are aware of the legal sense of the >> >:: term and are rejecting it. Does this correlate with the "save your >> >:: Dixie cups; the South will rise again syndrome? >> > >> > >> > >> >: JIm's nonrestrictive clause commas are wrong, but it would be >> >: difficult to maintain that the shorthand use of "cokes" by SOME >> >: Southerners sometimes borders on the generic. In my experience after >> >: living nearly 40 years in North Carolina (I haven't checked this >> >: against any empirical data), there are SOME people who use >> >: "cokes" (almost always in the plural) to refer to soft drinks >> >: in general, though they are fading out in areas where the large number >> >: of immigrants from the North are often confused by such utterances as, >> >: "What kind of cokes do y'all have?" Most frequently, it seems to me, >> >: there use is plural. >> > >> > >> > >> >: ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >> >: lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >> >: people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for some people, >> >: i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >> >: might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >> >: generic use. But such people are a decided minority in the US, and I >> >: suspect that they are dying out in the face of dialect mixture and, >> >: of course, modern advertising... >> > >> >Agreed that the nonrestrictive clause bit was wrong (very wrong, in fact, >> >IMObservation), but, that said... >> > >> >I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m >> >one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of >> >'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm >> >only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can >> get >> >and still hear (semi-?)generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and >> >in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from >> respondents >> >of all ages. >> > >> >It might be worthwhile looking at the possible parallel of PEPSI as, > > >perhaps, a generic for sweetened carbonated beverages in parts >of Idaho and >> >(i think) Montana, and maybe elsewhere. >> > >> > >> > >> >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >> > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >> > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >> Wells Hall A-740 >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >> Office: (517) 353-0740 >> Fax: (517) 432-2736 >> >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Fri Mar 4 16:10:14 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:10:14 -0600 Subject: "matters" = "depends" Message-ID: One more interesting item this morning. I have a student who consistently uses "matters" to mean "depends." E.g.: if asked whether she could go out tonight, she'd say 'it matters if I have homework or not." where I would say 'depends." Anyhow have any idea of the origins/region of this switching? or other examples? Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:12:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:12:54 -0500 Subject: Genericide was Re: COKE in the South In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F2@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 9:38 AM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > >> : ...Sometimes words do indeed undergo what the >> : lawyers call GENERICIDE, and maybe COKE has done this for some >> : people: COKE(S) may have some kind of double-meaning for >> some people, >> : i.e., a dictionary that properly describes COKE for some Southerners >> : might should have entry #1 for the trademark status and #2 for the >> : generic use. > >Genericide is not in the OED. > >>>From the Hein Online legal database. Nothing better in Lexis/Nexis, and >I don't have Westlaw. > >Vol 20 No. 1 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. p.7 Fall, 1978 >Generic Trademarks, the FTC and the Lanham Act: Covering the Market with >Formica; Shipley, David E. > >" "Genericide," the metamorphosis of a distinctive mark into a generic >term, ordinarily results from several factors >which often are difficult to identify; concomitantly, the deterioration >of the trademark may be equally difficult to abate. " As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing of a generic? Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:21:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:21:32 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 04:55:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny chanting, > >Acka backa soda cracka, >Acka backa boo! >Acka backa soda cracka, >Out goes you! Hmm, I don't remember that one. But I do remember the scene in "Super Rabbit" (Chuck Jones, 1943) in which Bugs acts like a cheerleader and gets Cottontail Smith (and his horse) to chant: Bricka-bracka, firecracka, Sis boom bah! Bugs Bunny, Bugs Bunny, Rah rah rah! http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/bugs_bunny/ltbb_353.wav --Ben Zimmer From larry at SCROGGS.COM Fri Mar 4 16:25:08 2005 From: larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:25:08 -0800 Subject: Chickens with their head cut off Message-ID: This was a regular occurrence on my grandparents' farm. My grandmother usually used the "snap of the wrist" method and my grandfather preferred to use a hatchet while holding the chicken on a tree stump. My grandparents' home had an open crawlspace under it and my job, when I was a small lad, was to crawl under the house to recover any chicken that ran under the house after having its head removed. My grandmother could make quite a tasty dish of chicken and dumplings. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com On Mar 3, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: strong like ball > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > We had chickens, and this twist of the wrist was a coming of age > phenomenon for me. The first time I was sent out to do the deed > (which I had observed many times), a breaking rather than a parting > of the neck resulted, so that the poor critter could no longer hold > its head up, but it did indeed run around the yard, like a chicken > with its head a-danglin rather than like one with its head cut off. I > caught it and took my little hatchet to it. > > I was later successful with this flick of the wrist and sent many > birds to the big coop in the sky. > > dInIs From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:26:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:26:06 -0800 Subject: perpetrator / perpetrate / perpetrative Message-ID: Maybe this was discussed long ago. "Perpetrator" has recently generalized into "wrongdoer or miscreant," and comes with the corresponding "perpetrate" and "perpetrative." These are just a few exx. (It helps to misspell the word.) "I just dont want to do recovery with you, and I find your unsoliceted opinions unwelcomed and perpatrative to me. "I dont expect you to understand that you are a perpatrator, nor more then I expect Ice or Buff or Kaitlyn to understand they are perpatrators." ------"Hey Mensa Head," alt.abuse.recovery (June 29, 1997). "the Christian Nazi . . . got to perpatrate on Sonoma County Citizens legally ----"Another SAMM Voter Recommendation, "alt.california (Oct. 24, 1998). "No, you kicked your daughter out, that make you a perpatrator." ----"evolution is chance as explained by scientists," alt.info-science (Apr. 6, 1999). "How many people would now stop to help you if you were down and injured by some nasty perpatrator not many I can tell ya." ----"The Good Ole Days?" alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic (May 26, 1999). I don't call these usages slang. They undoubtedly derive from a simple misunderstanding of the customary meaning of "perpetrator" via the popular division of society into "perpetrators and victims." Of slang interest, however, are the rap / hip-hop terms "perpetrator / perpetrate" meaning "pretender, poseur" and "to pretend to be what one is not." Pamela Munro's students at UCLA provided the earliest citations in 1988-89. "Perp" abbreviates both noun and verb. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:29:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:29:22 -0800 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: That's what happens in my brain. The "earworm," however, belies the glib generalization on the same page that "Music Makes You Smarter." JL Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround Subject: Re: "Earworm" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html Karen Ellis Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 16:32:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:32:52 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: Obviously I was being earwormed when I posted the previous message. I'd apologize, but it's that damned "Jingle Bell Rock" again. JL Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: COKE in the Maryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 9:33:04 AM, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > > I'm not so sure that the use of COKE you discuss is dying out, since *i*'m > one of these people (with a meaning #1 for COKE [note the singular!] of > 'Coca-Cola' and a meaning #2 of 'sweetened carbonated beverage'), and i'm > only 34. I'm from Southern Maryland, pretty much as far north as you can get > and still hear (semi-?) generic COKE (yes, that's COKE in the singular), and > in my fieldwork there, you get occasional COKE as a generic from respondents > of all ages. > Thanks, David, for the information and personal information. As for the fieldwork, isn't "occasional" the operative word here? This would seem to me to indicate that your "coke"-responding informants are (at most) like you, i.e., people who know that COKE is a brand name but also know that SOME people SOMETIMES use it as a pseudogeneric, either as shorthand or because they have attached a secondary meaning to it? This is entirely anecdotal, but when I first moved to Durham, NC, 35+ years ago, one heard "coke" for 'softdrink' much more frequently. Maybe "dying out" was too strong; maybe "less robust" would be a better way of putting it (and more in keeping with the jargon of the times). --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Mar 4 16:37:41 2005 From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (Sylvia Swift) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:37:41 -0800 Subject: Fwd: query: know any linguists or social scientists that know about "play"? Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 4 16:46:13 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:46:13 -0500 Subject: "matters" = "depends" In-Reply-To: <42288866.5060906@netscape.net> Message-ID: >One more interesting item this morning. I have a student who >consistently uses "matters" to mean "depends." E.g.: if asked whether >she could go out tonight, she'd say 'it matters if I have homework or >not." where I would say 'depends." > >Anyhow have any idea of the origins/region of this switching? or other >examples? > >Patti ~~~~~~~~~~ This rings a faint bell -- probably going back to my Nebraska childhood before WWII -- and I find it associated with "rether" for "whether," as in (using your e.g.) "it matters rether I have homework or not." A. Murie From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 16:55:07 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:55:07 -0600 Subject: "'dirty joke" Message-ID: OED has 1913 for "dirty joke" REV. SAM JONES. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Mar 21, 1896; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5/col 3 "A preacher not long since said to a saloon keeper standing in his door in this city: 'Don't you sometimes get tired of this business?' 'Oh,' said the saloon keeper, 'if you could see the crowd that gathers here and hear their dirty, filthy jokes and horrid oaths, you would think hell was going on earth.' " From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 4 17:05:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 09:05:20 -0800 Subject: "'dirty joke" Message-ID: So was that yes or no? JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: "'dirty joke" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OED has 1913 for "dirty joke" REV. SAM JONES. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Mar 21, 1896; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5/col 3 "A preacher not long since said to a saloon keeper standing in his door in this city: 'Don't you sometimes get tired of this business?' 'Oh,' said the saloon keeper, 'if you could see the crowd that gathers here and hear their dirty, filthy jokes and horrid oaths, you would think hell was going on earth.' " __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 17:42:33 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: My favorite spam quote of the day: Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 17:43:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 12:43:07 -0500 Subject: perpetrator / perpetrate / perpetrative Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:26:06 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Of slang interest, however, are the rap / hip-hop terms "perpetrator / >perpetrate" meaning "pretender, poseur" and "to pretend to be what one >is not." Pamela Munro's students at UCLA provided the earliest citations >in 1988-89. The verb appears earlier than that in rap lyrics. It might have started off as "perpetrate a fraud" and gotten clipped from there... ---- Bitin your moves, takin fake awards Sayin everyone else is perpetratin the frauds. --Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, "Step Off" (1984) ---- For all you sucker MCs perpetratin a fraud Your rhymes are cold wack and keep the crowd cold lost. --Run-D.M.C., "Rock Box" (1984) ---- You run round talkin bout what you hate Livin your life just to perpetrate. --Run-D.M.C., "You're Blind" (1985) ---- We slay all suckers who perpetrate And lay down law from state to state. --Run-D.M.C., "My Adidas" (1986) ---- Cheap-skate, perpetrating, money-hungry jerk Everyday I drink a "O.E." and I don't go to work. --Beastie Boys, "Hold It Now, Hit It" (1986) ---- That's when I saw this beautiful girlie girl walkin I picked up my car phone to perpetrate like I was talkin. --DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince, "Parents Just Don't Understand" (1988) ---- And "perpetrator" is just as old, with the shift to the 'poseur' sense occurring early on: ---- You forgot the words of your creator And now he's made you a perpetrator. --Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five, "Step Off" (1984) ---- The lovers and the taker, faker, lovers of the Lakers Simulator, rap traitor, perfect perpetrator. --LL Cool J, "Rock the Bells" (1986) ---- Discriminators, perpetrators, educators, legislators Dominators, people haters known as segregators. --The Boogie Boys, "Colorblind World" (1986) ---- Perpetrators in the business claim their hard as hell Talkin that gangster shit, knowin they're soft as jell - Oh! --Ice-T, "Rhyme Pays" (1987) ---- I'm a crowd motivator, MC annihilator Never front the move cause I'm not a perpetrator. --MC Shan, "Kill That Noise" (1987) ---- To have MCs coming out sounding so similar It's quite confusing for you to remember The originator, and boy do I hate a Perpetrator, but I'm much greater. --Big Daddy Kane, "Ain't No Half-Steppin'" (1988) ---- Many more examples here: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:ohhla.com+perpetrate|perpetratin|perpetrating|perpetrated|perpetrator|perpetrators --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:24:01 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:24:01 EST Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,...? But here > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > conversion TO a generic:? the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > of a generic? > > Larry > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) obviously difficult to remember. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:28:51 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:28:51 EST Subject: COKE in Poland Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 11:03:02 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > Ron, > > Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are > permitted on this list. > > dInIs > You got me there. In fact (and this is NOT a complaint), there is hardly any form of curiosity, intellectual or otherwise, that is not exhibited on this list. The way to order a soft drink in Poland a couple of decades ago seems a lot closer to the topic of American dialects than a lot of stuff we talk about. And, as with everything that dInIs says, it certainly engages one's intellectual curiosity. From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:32:15 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:32:15 EST Subject: LAS COCAS Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 10:45:01 AM, rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU writes: > Non-US generic use: When I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico for a summer > (1997, I think), my se~nora referred to any soft drink as "una coca." > Sra. Alvarez would ask, "?Quieres una coca?" and then give me the > equivalent of Sprite. At the time, it made me homesick for Alabama. When > I worked as a hostess in a restaurant during high school, I would take > drink orders from customers. When people said they wanted a coke, I > learned I should ask what kind. > Rachel > This is what I remember from Guadalajara in the 1970s, too. One could ask, "?Hay cocas?" as well as (as I recall) "... refrescas?" I remember asking once for "bebidas" (at a pushcart in a park in Mexico City) and was told that they had no alcoholic drinks. From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 4 18:33:06 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:33:06 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <200503040829704.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ya gotta just hope for the best :-) k At 11:29 AM 3/4/2005, you wrote: >That's what happens in my brain. The "earworm," however, belies the glib >generalization on the same page that "Music Makes You Smarter." > >JL > > >"earworm" is a nagging tune that is maddeningly difficult to get out of > >one's mind. As far as anyone knows, it's a hot new loan-translation of > >German Ohrwurm, a "haunting melody." > >FYI: Exactly what an earworm is. >http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Stars/funkbrothersCulture.html > >Karen Ellis >Educational CyberPlayGround <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround 7 Hot Site Awards from New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty "I wish I was a glow worm, A glow worm's never glum, How could you be unhappy, when the sun shines out your bum!" Anon <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 18:33:20 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:33:20 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.? It is > virtually the only word I hear for it. > > The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - > perhaps for obvious reasons. > I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 4 18:38:42 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:38:42 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <1ed.3701ee93.2f5a01c1@aol.com> Message-ID: Though my descriptivist training restrains me from quibbling, personally I've always felt exactly as Larry does -- that "genericide" is a patently self-contradictory coinage by people whose real interest obviously isn't in language. Even descriptivists have their private likes and dislikes, I guess. At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA meetings.) Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 4 Mar 2005, at 13:24, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here > > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > > conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > > of a generic? > > > > Larry > > > > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ > the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a > prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, > prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane > linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by > someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and > that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to > it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) > obviously difficult to remember. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 18:52:02 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 13:52:02 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > My favorite spam quote of the day: > > a fatal plane crash 2 years ago.> In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used for "deceased". -- Alice Faber From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:17:58 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: COKE in Poland In-Reply-To: <195.3a2c876b.2f5a02e3@aol.com> Message-ID: Aw shucks. dInIs >In a message dated 3/4/05 11:03:02 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > >> Ron, >> >> Of course it doesn't, but other forms of intellectual curiosity are >> permitted on this list. >> >> dInIs >> > >You got me there. > >In fact (and this is NOT a complaint), there is hardly any form of curiosity, >intellectual or otherwise, that is not exhibited on this list. The way to >order a soft drink in Poland a couple of decades ago seems a lot closer to the >topic of American dialects than a lot of stuff we talk about. And, as with >everything that dInIs says, it certainly engages one's intellectual curiosity. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:36:28 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:36:28 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4228AE52.7030206@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: >In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective >Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used >for "deceased". Thanks. I have read only one of those books and somehow missed this. Its use must be widespread, right? Bethany From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:39:13 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:39:13 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= In-Reply-To: <15d.4bdb6cd6.2f5a03f0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >> perhaps for obvious reasons. Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:40:30 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <1ed.3701ee93.2f5a01c1@aol.com> Message-ID: At 1:24 PM -0500 3/4/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >> of a generic? >> >> Larry >> > >I don't think that I got this message, It was when I was thanking you for sending me your paper on the topic: ========== Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:31:01 -0500 To: Ron Butters From: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: 16.520, Review: Historical Ling: Curzan & Emmons (2004) (P.S. I find "genericide" clever but a bit misleading, since it's not the generic which is killed off, but the specific killed off by the generic, right? Rather different from suicide, matricide, genocide, and the other players on that -cide.) ========== > but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ >the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a >prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, >prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. Purist shmurist; let's try to keep the discourse civil and avoid slurs. All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning "capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, make the most of it. > There is also an arcane >linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now >(invented perhaps by >someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and >that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a >nice ring to >it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) >obviously difficult to remember. I began using the term "antonomasia" for the process after I noticed a paper Roger Shuy presented on the topic (using that term) at the LSA or a satellite conference. Looking it up on the internet, I see that it does indeed have that meaning (although perhaps a broader range of applications as well), and has the advantage of opaque enough to not appear to signify the opposite of what it is designed to signify. Larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:47:03 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:47:03 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: > > >>In all of the Alexander McCall Smith books (Number One Ladies Detective >>Agency, and its sequels) set in Botswana, "late" is the normal word used >>for "deceased". > > > Thanks. I have read only one of those books and somehow missed this. Its > use must be widespread, right? I don't remember it in the first book in the series, but it definitely recurs in the later books. -- Alice Faber From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 19:55:05 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:55:05 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <4228BB37.9000305@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Alice Faber wrote: >I don't remember it in the first book in the series, but it definitely >recurs in the later books. Ah - that is the only one I have read. Bethany From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Mar 4 19:55:41 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:55:41 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at odds with its morphology. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning "capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, make the most of it. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:02:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:02:32 -0500 Subject: "dope" and taboo (was: COKE in the Maryland) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:39 PM -0500 3/4/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >>> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >>> perhaps for obvious reasons. > >Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and >otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. > >Bethany as we'd expect with taboo avoidance; cf. jackass. Or the fact that the French still use _baiser_ ('to fuck') with its original meaning ('kiss') as a noun, or in contextually disambiguated verbal contexts (_baiser la main_). Larry (Of course, some might argue that speakers know that _baiser_ *really* still has just the one sense of 'kiss', but is just *used in a shorthand way* to mean 'fuck'...) From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:05:24 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:05:24 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: In Ann Arbor - Ypsilanti, at last fifteen years ago, the buses had a sign which read "Do not stand in front of the standee line when bus is moving." dInIs > But there are other words that are used in senses at odds >with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that >the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing >escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another >example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one >who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in >lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at >odds with its morphology. > > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 2:41 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? > > > >All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >make the most of it. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:06:41 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:06:41 -0500 Subject: "dope" and taboo (was: COKE in the Maryland) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: >>>> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - >>>> perhaps for obvious reasons. >> >>Let's not give it a premature funeral. Though its use is contextually and >>otherwise restricted, it is in fact still used. >> > >as we'd expect with taboo avoidance; cf. jackass. Or the fact that >the French still use _baiser_ ('to fuck') with its original meaning >('kiss') as a noun, or in contextually disambiguated verbal contexts >(_baiser la main_). I have never seen any evidence that taboo avoidance is at play with use of the word dope meaning generic coke. The contextual restrictions I am familiar with (in East Tennessee) involve age, rurality, and level of education. I know speakers who NEVER use any other word for generic coke. Bethany From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 20:49:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:49:46 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >>> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >>> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >>> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >>> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >>> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >>> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >>> of a generic? [...] >All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >make the most of it. What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. --Ben Zimmer From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 4 21:21:30 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:21:30 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: >John Baker writes: > .... But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with their >morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who >escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the escapee, >but a different meaning prevails.... < ~~~~~~~~ "Absentee" is an example that I have always thought particularly silly-looking. In the case of frequently-seen "retiree" one could suppose the retirement was involuntary, which suggests another possibility: "resignee" for people actually fired but who are described, for political reasons, as having resigned (in order to spend more time with their families, or whatever). A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 21:20:18 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:20:18 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"dope"=20and=20tabo?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?o=20(was:=20COKE=20in=20the=20Maryland)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 3:02:49 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > (Of course, some might argue that speakers know that _baiser_ > *really* still has just the one sense of 'kiss', but is just *used in > a shorthand way* to mean 'fuck'...) > huh-uh From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 21:26:24 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:26:24 EST Subject: keeping the discourse civil and avoiding slurs Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 2:41:19 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > Purist shmurist; let's try to keep the discourse civil and avoid slurs. > Mine was, I confess, a somewhat sardonic reference to Larry's "aren't you being prescriptivist" comment about my original objection to someone's usage of GENERIC to refer to the shorthand (quasigeneric) use of KLEENEX. But I did not take that to be an uncivil slur. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 21:28:39 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:28:39 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B7D@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > But there are other words that are used in senses at odds >with their morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that >the person who escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing >escaped is the escapee, but a different meaning prevails. Another >example is looker, which means a person who is looked at, not one >who looks. I was also going to trot out informant, which is used in >lieu of the stigmatized informer, but I guess that isn't really at >odds with its morphology. -ee is indeed interesting, but note that the animacy restriction is much stronger than the semantic/grammatical role restriction (essentially = non-agent), so an escapee could never be a jail, for example. (There are some counterexamples, such an attested reference to a tomato plant as a "drownee", but they always seem to involve personification.) Could it be the jailer, or a police officer? It doesn't seem as though it really could, in that -ee doesn't seem to be that easy to get with source arguments (cf. *evadee). I've argued (no doubt unpersuasively) that an escapee is so-called because s/he was involuntarily housed in whatever place s/he escaped from, in which case "escapee" is sort of like "standee" in the nonvolitionality dimension--a glarfee is someone who was forced to glarf--even if the "escapee" does seem like an agent even more than a "standee" does. (A very comprehensive treatment of the -ee case is given in Chris Barker's 1998 paper, "Episodic -ee in English: A thematic role constraint on new word formation", Language 74: 695-727.) The result is that "escapee" and "standee", while they may need some explanation (or at least more sophisticated hand-waving) don't really mean the opposite of what they would be predicted to mean given the word-formation rule involved, and in any case if there's only one argument of the verb, we just assign whatever role we have around when we're interpreting the -ee noun. "Looker", on the other hand, is a real problem. And yes, it has always bothered me, I admit it. I'm not claiming that no ambiguities of this sort are possible, even with -ee ("masturbatee", for example, is attested for both 'someone who is masturbated' and 'someone who is masturbated to', ? la "fantasizee"), but part of the problem is that (as Barker's article nicely demonstrates) it's really quite hard to give the actual semantic constraints on -ee affixation. In the case of -cide, on the other hand, it seems entirely straightforward: an X(i)cide is a killing (or killer) of (an) X. X is always (except for "genericide", to be sure) the theme/patient, the killee, never (just) the agent or the instrument, the killer. (In a suicide, X is by definition both killer and killee.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 4 21:47:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:47:13 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <3940.69.142.143.59.1109969386.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 3:49 PM -0500 3/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 14:40:30 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >>>> As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term >>>> extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the >>>> generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here >>>> what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by >>>> conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. >>>> Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come >>>> up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing >>>> of a generic? >[...] >>All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive >>morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in a sense >>totally at odds with that morphology suggests is misleading at best >>and doomed at worst. Anyone has the right to coin a word, for >>example, like _unfaxable_ (of a document), but to coin such a word to >>be used for the meaning "capable of being faxed" (or the meaning >>"capable of being shredded more than once, and served with pickles on >>the side") would be rather...peculiar. If this be prescriptivism, >>make the most of it. > >What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? > >autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) >copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) >medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) > >Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but >they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the >instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could >be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. Ah, good point. I can certainly imagine "copicide" in the sense of "cop-killing", and have seen "suicide by cop" [25,400 google hits] a lot more often than "copicide" [321 google hits. But they certainly exist and do have instrumental and not theme readings on the relevant senses. I think that they definitely are blends and that the "suicide" part is essential--could a nurse who kills patients by medication be said to commit medicide? (I suppose that would be homicide + meds.) What about accidental overdoses, which also involve death by means of medication? One interesting question is then whether that was in fact the intention underlying the formation of "genericide": the idea being that the brands themselves are acting as agents and gradually committing suicide and using genericization as the means to that end. Not impossible, I admit. Let's check "commit genericide": yup, there are a few, anyway, with the "suicide" understanding. Verrrry interesting. OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. Larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 4 22:01:32 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:01:32 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: The last time I remember this happening was in 1993, but I skipped a bunch of DSNA meetings after that, so the custom might have died out well afterwards, for all I know. I apologize if I came across as anti-attorney. Obviously, many lawyers are extremely literate and scholarly; where would a historical lexicographer be without them? It just bugged me a lot to be finger-wagged about how to handle sensitive lexicographical matters by people who had an obvious financial interest in shortchanging the purely linguistic side of things. (If you're an academic, imagine being herded into a room by budget-slashing government officials and told, "Enough with the expensive conferences and academic journals -- you intellectuals need to make up your minds about what you think!") Joanne On 4 Mar 2005, at 16:28, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/4/05 1:44:14 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > > > > At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while > > partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- > > sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA > > meetings.) > > > How long ago was that? I don't remember this at all, and personally would be > in favor or reviving it! > ------- End of forwarded message ------- From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:12:35 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:12:35 EST Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English, when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most scholars who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles on the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (or was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can be used in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but it certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter): 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you" + "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all" is rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsiders trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorically that it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently because people on the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that have been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees trying to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as some of the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatically possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconscious utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they would do so seems a historical and linguistic mystery). A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological and social function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clear to anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I'm not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. > > In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the average > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many > Southern academics and intellectuals. > > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does > exist.? My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.? This is not new, > and hardly peculiar to this list.? I find it amazing and symptomatic - of > what I'm not certain. > > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and always) > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instance > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-person plural > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,? the Southern > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took for > a furriner, etc. > > What gives?? I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one.? And > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this > sensitivity. > > JL > From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:19:43 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:19:43 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Is=20GENERICIDE=20a?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20bad=20choice=20or=20morphemes=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 5:06:52 PM, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > The last time I remember this happening was in 1993, but I skipped > a bunch of DSNA meetings after that, so the custom might have > died out well afterwards, for all I know. > > I apologize if I came across as anti-attorney.? Obviously, many > lawyers are extremely literate and scholarly; where would a > historical lexicographer be without them?? It just bugged me a lot to > be finger-wagged about how to handle sensitive lexicographical > matters by people who had an obvious financial interest in > shortchanging the purely linguistic side of things.? (If you're an > academic, imagine being herded into a room by budget-slashing > government officials and told, "Enough with the expensive > conferences and academic journals -- you intellectuals need to > make up your minds about what you think!") > > Joanne > Wish I'd been there--it must have been quite a scene. Can we invite them to Boston and wave back? From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 4 22:32:36 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:32:36 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Is=20GENERICIDE=20a?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20bad=20choice=20or=20morphemes=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 4:47:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term > very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which > the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the > genericization.? And that's not the general phenomenon under > discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly > Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. > It is not easy to imagine a company deliberately genericizing its own product name, nor even how it could be done. Legally, it is always the linguistic knowledge of ordinary speakers that is the issue. I have been using the term GENERICIDE for several years, and I honestly never thought of the etymological problem that Larry brings up. Part of the problem is that -CIDE implies killing, whereas nobody really sets out to kill a brand name, it just happens as a sort of natural sociolinguistic process. Of course, as we all know, people are not very consistent in coining words from classical-language morphemes. Didn't people object to HOMOSEXUAL because HOMO is Greek and SEX is Latin? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 22:59:09 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:59:09 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: > > All I'm saying is that a word containing partially productive > morphology coined with the intention that it is to be used in > a sense totally at odds with that morphology suggests is > misleading at best and doomed at worst. . . . . > > I began using the term "antonomasia" for the process after I > noticed a paper Roger Shuy presented on the topic (using that > term) at the LSA or a satellite conference. Looking it up on > the internet, I see that it does indeed have that meaning > (although perhaps a broader range of applications as well), > and has the advantage of opaque enough to not appear to > signify the opposite of what it is designed to signify. > Forgive a rank amateur for weighing in so, but: Even after hearing the arguments against "genericide" and for "antonomasia", it's hard for me to consider the former "doomed", especially when compared with the latter. When I heard the word "genericide" in this context (and I had never heard it before, ever), it had a sense of "rightness" in application that "antonomasia" doesn't come close to getting. The fact that "genericide" sticks in the memory much better than "antonomasia" (see, for example, Ron Butters' difficulty in recalling it) makes it a more useful term, while the opaqueness of "antonomasia" is a strike against it. And it is being used, to fulfill the need for a word with the meaning that "genericide" has under this discussion. The Hein Online legal database has 71 cites for "genericide", and only 5 for "antonomasia" -- and all of the "antonomasia" cites are in its context as a figure of classical rhetoric, none in the Kleenex/Xerox/Fridgidaire sense. English is full of quirks. We may be watching one develop, with "genericide". From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:03:11 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:03:11 -0600 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: The only point I'd take issue with from Ron's post is the following: 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all" is rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsiders trying to sound like insiders. The development of plural 2nd person pronouns into singulars (often conveying politeness or formality originally) is motivated psychologically and/or socially. We all know about the European examples (English you, French vous, German sie, even Spanish Usted comes from vuestra (2nd person plural possessive) + merced "grace" - I hope I'm remembering this right). I believe this is common elsewhere in the world as well. And in the French and German cases the polite/formal singular forms retain their plural meanings, so the suggestion that the transparent plurality of one form might prevent it from developing into a singular isn't persuasive. The development from plural to deferential singular makes sense b/c the plural is less threateningly direct (e.g. "I wasn't talking about just you, I was talking about all yall"). So in talking to a social superior you could use the plural as a more indirect form of address. Eventually the semantic component of plurality is seen as optional and the form comes to mean "polite" singular and maybe eventually just singular. I'm sure others on the list can explain this more eloquently. My point is that, based on cross-linguistic evidence, we might expect that yall would develop into a (polite) singular eventually. Whether or not it actually has done this is a different issue. -Matt Gordon From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:08:27 2005 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:08:27 -0600 Subject: LAS COCAS In-Reply-To: <200503041832.j24IWXg8020135@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: In Southern California, that expression ?Quieres coca? has yet another meaning to do with the drug. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 4 23:40:03 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:40:03 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:47:13 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 3:49 PM -0500 3/4/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>What about "X-(i)cide" coinages that mean "suicide by means of X"? >> >>autocide: suicide by crashing the vehicle one is driving (RHUD) >>copicide: suicide by provoking a police officer to shoot (Word Spy) >>medicide: suicide assisted by a physician (AHD, Encarta) >> >>Sure, these should properly be considered blends of "X + [su](i)cide", but >>they at least point to the possibility of "-(i)cide" attaching to the >>instrument rather than the patient of the action. So "genericide" could >>be thought of as death *by means of* genericization. > >Ah, good point. I can certainly imagine "copicide" in the sense of >"cop-killing", and have seen "suicide by cop" [25,400 google hits] a >lot more often than "copicide" [321 google hits. But they certainly >exist and do have instrumental and not theme readings on the relevant >senses. I think that they definitely are blends and that the >"suicide" part is essential--could a nurse who kills patients by >medication be said to commit medicide? (I suppose that would be >homicide + meds.) What about accidental overdoses, which also >involve death by means of medication? > >One interesting question is then whether that was in fact the >intention underlying the formation of "genericide": the idea being >that the brands themselves are acting as agents and gradually >committing suicide and using genericization as the means to that end. >Not impossible, I admit. Let's check "commit genericide": yup, >there are a few, anyway, with the "suicide" understanding. Verrrry >interesting. OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term >very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which >the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the >genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under >discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly >Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. It's possible to create a nonce "X-icide" form that has the instrumental sense (killing by means of X) but is *not* related to committing suicide. Such forms aren't very common, but they're out there. Here are two I found: ----- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/0ad3590c9c85e3c9 I occasionally got up and got another glass of wine and some more food until poor Bill had to haul my inebriated self to the hotel. And it was worth every brain cell that died due to chardonnay-icide. ----- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-154600.html I know how hype can easily ruin a good film, so I do empathize with you on this. [...] yeah, i think it may have been a case of hype-icide for me... ----- The first example might be considered borderline, since it's still one's *own* brain cells that are being killed by Chardonnay. But the second is clearly non-suicidal: "hype-icide" = 'the killing of one's enjoyment of a film due to advance hype'. That seems pretty close to "genericide" = 'the killing of a trademark due to genericization'. I was going to mention the old form "aborticide" = 'the killing of a fetus by means of abortion' (in OED, RHUD, and Webster's 1913), but it turns out the etymology of that is "abort[us]" + "-icide", where "abortus" means 'an aborted fetus', so it's not instrumental. It's an unusual form, though-- resultative, perhaps, since aborticide results in an abortus? --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 23:46:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:46:17 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: Spamicide shows up in Google as both "death to spam" and "dying from an overload of spam". From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 4 23:54:34 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:54:34 -0600 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: Also seen: Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 00:26:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:26:20 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: In theory. But most people still learn the meaning of "coke" (the soft-drink plant's product )long before they learn the meaning of "coke" (the coca plant's product). So "coke" is presumably more strongly imprinted in their vocabularies than is "coke." As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and less common on campus. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.=A0 It= is=20 > virtually the only word I hear for it. >=20 > The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore -=20 > perhaps for obvious reasons. >=20 I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 00:31:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 16:31:25 -0800 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? JL "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joanne M. Despres" Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though my descriptivist training restrains me from quibbling, personally I've always felt exactly as Larry does -- that "genericide" is a patently self-contradictory coinage by people whose real interest obviously isn't in language. Even descriptivists have their private likes and dislikes, I guess. At least we don't have to listen to lawyers lecture at us while partaking of their wine and cheese. (Ugh! That Trademark Assn.- sponsored reception used to be my least favorite part of DSNA meetings.) Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 4 Mar 2005, at 13:24, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/4/05 11:13:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > > As I mentioned to Ron off-line a while back, I find this term > > extremely misleading, since it strongly suggests the death OF the > > generic, as in suicide, fratricide, regicide, genocide,... But here > > what is meant is death (or subsumption) of the trademark by > > conversion TO a generic: the generic is goal, not theme/patient. > > Granted, "trademarkicide" isn't viable, but can't those lawyers come > > up with something better than "genericide" for what isn't the killing > > of a generic? > > > > Larry > > > > I don't think that I got this message, but be that as it may, GENERICIDE _is_ > the common legal term for the process, and, being a descriptive rather than a > prescirptive linguist, I am not to eager to quarrel with them on such purist, > prescriptivist grounds as Larry enunciates here. There is also an arcane > linguistic term that I am not able to bring to mind right now (invented perhaps by > someone at Merriam-Webster a few years ago an posted on their website) and > that someone in this thread actually used a few turns ago. It has a nice ring to > it, but it is also (as I recall) totally opaque and (for me at least) > obviously difficult to remember. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:21:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:21:15 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <12d.5772dd38.2f5a3c04@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:32 PM -0500 3/4/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 3/4/05 4:47:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > >> OK, I'm (partly) convinced, but I still find the term >> very misleading, unless it's used precisely for those cases in which >> the trademark (or the company owning it) is responsible for the >> genericization. And that's not the general phenomenon under >> discussion here, in which it's ordinary speakers, and not Kimberly >> Clark, that use "kleenex" to refer generically to tissues. >> > >It is not easy to imagine a company deliberately genericizing its own product >name, nor even how it could be done. Legally, it is always the linguistic >knowledge of ordinary speakers that is the issue. Well, actually some of the web sites did seem to warn companies not to "commit genericide" in just this way, but it was pretty rare. > >I have been using the term GENERICIDE for several years, and I honestly never >thought of the etymological problem that Larry brings up. Part of the problem >is that -CIDE implies killing, whereas nobody really sets out to kill a brand >name, it just happens as a sort of natural sociolinguistic process. Aha--just so, which makes the analogy with the "copicide" et al. examples (= 'suicide by means of X') Ben brought up earlier less compelling, leaving us with the nonce "hype-icide"-type nonce wordss as models for the intended "genericide", if nonce words can be models. But on top of that, there's the garden path (= killing off of a generic form) based on the far more usual theme/patient pattern. I can imagine, for example, someone calling for the genericide of sex-neutral "he"/"man" language, but again that's the opposite of the intended sense for the antonomasia cases. >Of >course, as we all know, people are not very consistent in coining words from >classical-language morphemes. Didn't people object to HOMOSEXUAL >because HOMO is >Greek and SEX is Latin? Yes they did, but that was dumb (given inter alia the countless etymological hybrids in the language). The issue of misparsing (as equivalent, presumably, to "tautosexual", meaning 'of the same sex? as derived from the Lat. "homo" = 'person'?) is much less likely to have arisen in that case. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 01:30:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: Most of what you say below, Ron, is quite unexceptionable. But surely there was no good linguistic reason for the loss of the OE dual pronoun or a great many other phenomena discussed here, including the various reversals of meaning currently under discussion. (It's not quite parallel, but what about the creation and Tidewater spread of "mongst-ye" as a second-person plural? Truly a strange development.) Once plural "y'all" gets sufficiently lexicalized that speakers no longer think of it as two morphemes, there's little enough to stop them from using it in the singular. As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" implied. The earliest discussion cited by Mencken came in 1907 by Virginian C. Alphonso Smith, reportedly a denier of singular "y'all." In contrast, Mencken also cites Vance Randolph's assertion in the 1920s that he heard singular "y'all" in the Ozarks on a daily basis. One reason I checked Mencken was to see whether he makes any sweeping, unsupported claims about the usage of singular "y'all." He does not. He agrees with all of us that it accounts for a small percentage of all usages. The existence of singular "y'all" even in frozen expressions is very significant, because it opens the door for more widespread use in the future. Although a single respondent's claim to be a user of singular "y'all" proves little about actual usage, the existence of many such claimants reveals their understanding that the second morpheme in "y'all" is indeed no longer morphemic. One should be cautious, however, about Internet claims by laypersons that "y'all" is singular and "y'alls" is plural. The posters may be using the term "singular" in an ad hoc way, i.e., "not redundantly plural like 'y'alls'." Is there a good linguistic reason for the existence of "y'alls" as something of a "superplural"? I've never heard it myself. There is both empirical and theoretical evidence for the existence of singular "y'all." The details of its distribution remain murky. What will DARE say about these grammatical matters ? JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I=20 am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English= ,=20 when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all=20 come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the=20 singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to=20 demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most sc= holars=20 who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles=20= on=20 the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (o= r=20 was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a=20 healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can=20= be used=20 in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but i= t=20 certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter)= : 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you"=20= +=20 "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for=20 speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all= " is=20 rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT=20 "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsid= ers=20 trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom=20 putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated=20 Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorical= ly that=20 it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for=20 wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently becaus= e people on=20 the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that hav= e=20 been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It=20 "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees tryi= ng=20 to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the=20 question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a=20 grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as= some of=20 the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other=20 Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatic= ally=20 possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconsc= ious=20 utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone=20 fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they woul= d do=20 so seems a historical and linguistic mystery).=20 A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what=20 circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological=20= and social=20 function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against=20 against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clea= r to=20 anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I= 'm=20 not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. >=20 >=20 In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own=20 > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the= average=20 > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many= =20 > Southern academics and intellectuals. >=20 > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does=20 > exist.=A0 My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some=20= s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.=A0 Thi= s is not new,=20 > and hardly peculiar to this list.=A0 I find it amazing and symptomatic - o= f=20 > what I'm not certain. >=20 > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to= =20 > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and alw= ays)=20 > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instan= ce=20 > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a=20 > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-perso= n plural=20 > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,=A0 the South= ern=20 > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took=20= for=20 > a furriner, etc. >=20 > What gives?=A0 I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming= =20 > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one= .=A0 And=20 > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this=20 > sensitivity. >=20 > JL >=20 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:34:27 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:34:27 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F7@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 4:59 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Forgive a rank amateur for weighing in so, We're all equal-rank amateurs here as English wielders, assuming trademark lawyers don't get to tip the scales. > but: > >Even after hearing the arguments against "genericide" and for >"antonomasia", it's hard for me to consider the former "doomed", >especially when compared with the latter. When I heard the word >"genericide" in this context (and I had never heard it before, ever), it >had a sense of "rightness" in application that "antonomasia" doesn't >come close to getting. The fact that "genericide" sticks in the memory >much better than "antonomasia" (see, for example, Ron Butters' >difficulty in recalling it) makes it a more useful term, while the >opaqueness of "antonomasia" is a strike against it. Well, I'll certain remember "genericide"; the tricky thing is figuring out what it means, but I concede I'll remember that now too. And I'm quite willing to acknowledge it does have a head start, containing the appropriate morphemes as it does. I just wish they fit together better. > >And it is being used, to fulfill the need for a word with the meaning >that "genericide" has under this discussion. The Hein Online legal >database has 71 cites for "genericide", and only 5 for "antonomasia" -- >and all of the "antonomasia" cites are in its context as a figure of >classical rhetoric, none in the Kleenex/Xerox/Fridgidaire sense. That may well be true for legal databases, but I note that googling "kleenex antonomasia" does pull up 68 hits. Granted, "kleenex genericide" gets you 141, but that is a closer vote than the Hein count. I never claimed "antonomasia" would win the lawyers' hearts (and that's assuming...no, I won't go there). > >English is full of quirks. We may be watching one develop, with >"genericide". Could be. I will go down arguing, but this may end up like the domination of the superior Apple technology by the more efficient and better bankrolled forces of evil. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:54:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:54:36 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7F9@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 5:54 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Also seen: > >Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and >Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon Nice examples--but note that not one of these (including hype-icide and other examples cited earlier) is the X of Xicide a goal argument. For these to be truly parallel, one would have to use the Xicide item with the meaning 'to kill (off) Z by turning Z into X', i.e. to wipe someone out by turning them into Bush, a shoe, spam, etc., the way genericide kills Kleenex, scotch-tape, etc. as brand names by turning them into generics. One closer parallel might be "Borgicide", for death via assimilation into the Borg (in Star Trek Voyager). I tried googling this, but the results were inconclusive and I'm at a disadvantage, since basically all I know about the Borg is the association with "You Will Be Assimilated" line. Hey, maybe ethnic cleansing (e.g. "Russianizing" the Latvians, to use a failed attempt at doing so) isn't such a bad parallel. But that would still suggest "genericizing"/"genericization" rather than "genericide" as the appropriate nominal. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 01:56:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:56:06 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: <20050305003126.71309.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:31 PM -0800 3/4/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. >Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The >obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. > >It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? > >JL > Two days ago I'd have said nothing. Now I'm reading it as "death/suicide by brandy", and I think I'm just about ready for it... L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 02:00:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:00:08 -0800 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: I thought of that possibility too, Larry, but I refrained from mentioning it. I snooze, I lose. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 4:31 PM -0800 3/4/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >It's not just aesthetically bad - it's transparently stupid. >Lawyers are usually more scrupulous -about language, anyway. The >obvious pun on "genocide" is also idiotic. > >It may be a hybrid, but what's wrong with "brandicide" ? > >JL > Two days ago I'd have said nothing. Now I'm reading it as "death/suicide by brandy", and I think I'm just about ready for it... L __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 02:25:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:25:03 -0500 Subject: "Western Union" by Moss Hart (1954) In-Reply-To: <200503030416.j234Gil2007520@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Fred Shapiro found earlier for the "Western Union" quote. My earlier "find" turns out to be erroneous: the "Western Union" quote does not appear in Alva Johnston, The Great Goldwyn (1937). It also does not appear in the Goldwyn section in Bennett Cerf, Try and Stop Me (1944). Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 02:29:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:29:14 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:54:36 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 5:54 PM -0600 3/4/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >> Also seen: >> >>Bushicide -- referring to George Bush being a killer, and >>Shoeicide -- referring to the shoe bomber, and a shoe as a weapon > >Nice examples--but note that not one of these (including hype-icide >and other examples cited earlier) is the X of Xicide a goal argument. And "shoeicide (bomber)" (or, in its appearance as the ADS Most Creative Word of 2001, "shuicide") falls into the category of "suicide" blends (autocide, copicide, medicide), where the instrument is a means for killing oneself. Of course, the instrument in this case is intended to kill others as well, but that gets into the tendentious grounds of "suicide" vs. "homicide" bombers... --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 02:44:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:44:52 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: The earliest "y'all" in OED - "you all," actually - is explicitly a singular. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think anyone disagrees with the following (correct me, please, if I=20 am wrong): 1. The form "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural in American English= ,=20 when it is used at all. 2. The form "y'all" is sometimes used in frozen expressions (e.g., "Y'all=20 come back") to address single persons. 3. Some Southerners will tell you, when asked, "Y'all can be used in the=20 singular." 4. People sometimes make slips of the tongue when speaking. 5. Most published articles on the subject in scholarly journals seek to=20 demonstrate that "y'all" is overwhelmingly used in the plural, i.e., most sc= holars=20 who have seriously studied the subject--enough actually to publish articles=20= on=20 the topic--agree. 6. One article, by Guy Bailey et al., based on telephone surveys in Texas (o= r=20 was it Oklahoma?) presents some evidence that, under direct question, a=20 healthy minority of respondents agreed with the proposition that "Y'all can=20= be used=20 in the singular." The article has been criticized for its methodology, but i= t=20 certainly supports the anecdotal evidence represented by (3) above. To this I would add (wondering if there is any disagrement from any quarter)= : 1. "Y'all" pretty clearly started as a plural, parallel to "yuhnz" (< "you"=20= +=20 "ones"), "yuhz" (< "you" + "{Plural Suffix}"), and "you guys." 2. There is little if any linguistic reason (psychological or social) for=20 speakers to use "y'all" as a singular, since "you" already exists and "y'all= " is=20 rather transparently plural given its morphology. Thus one would not EXPECT=20 "y'all" to be used as a singular, except maybe in dialect mixture, by outsid= ers=20 trying to sound like insiders. I myself don't know of any "Southern academics and intellectuals" for whom=20 putative singular "y'all" is a "hot-button issue"--or any "sophisticated=20 Southerners" who issue "striking, dogmatic refusal[s]" and "deny categorical= ly that=20 it can or does" exist. It does seem to be a "hot-button issue" for=20 wuxxmupp2000, who sounds right angry in the message below, apparently becaus= e people on=20 the listserve have taken issue with various specific pieces of data that hav= e=20 been asserted seeking to demonstrate specific instances of singular "y'all." Of course singlular "y'all" "exists." It "exists" in frozen expressions. It=20 "exists" in slips of the tongue. It exists in the minds of some Yankees tryi= ng=20 to speak Southern. It exists, if only as an artifact of how one asks the=20 question, in Guy Bailey's study. Most importantly, it clearly exists as a=20 grammatical possiblity in the minds of some speakers of American English, as= some of=20 the writers on this list-serve have demonstrated (just as there are other=20 Southerners, generally a majority, for whom it does not exist as a grammatic= ally=20 possiblity). It may even exist as a very minor subset of all the unselfconsc= ious=20 utterances of "y'all" that are generated in America on a given day by bone=20 fide adult nonsenile nonpathological Southern speakers (though why they woul= d do=20 so seems a historical and linguistic mystery).=20 A serious linguist will ask, "How frequent is this form? Under what=20 circumstances is it actually used? What is the historical and psychological=20= and social=20 function of such a form?" A serious linguist will not simply rant against=20 against the "academics and intellectuals" who, for reasons that are not clea= r to=20 anyone, including the ranter ("I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I= 'm=20 not certain"), do not see the issues the way he does. >=20 >=20 In a message dated 2/24/05 9:51:49 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own=20 > Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the= average=20 > Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many= =20 > Southern academics and intellectuals. >=20 > As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does=20 > exist.=A0 My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some=20= s > ophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.=A0 Thi= s is not new,=20 > and hardly peculiar to this list.=A0 I find it amazing and symptomatic - o= f=20 > what I'm not certain. >=20 > An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to= =20 > explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and alw= ays)=20 > thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instan= ce=20 > reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a=20 > transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-perso= n plural=20 > pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,=A0 the South= ern=20 > speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took=20= for=20 > a furriner, etc. >=20 > What gives?=A0 I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming= =20 > that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one= .=A0 And=20 > don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this=20 > sensitivity. >=20 > JL >=20 --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 5 02:45:31 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:45:31 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 02:47:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 21:47:27 -0500 Subject: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's a version that I learned in the first grade (1942) in St. Louis: Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight Went over the hill to see the fight Adam and Eve came back that night Who stayed to see the fight? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 7:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I believe that a Warner Bros. cartoon from ca 1950 has Bugs Bunny > chanting, > > Acka backa soda cracka, > Acka backa boo! > Acka backa soda cracka, > Out goes you! > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 00:36:55 -0600, Dan Goodman wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 01:55:35 -0500 >> From: bapopik at AOL.COM >> Subject: West Virginia Folklore (1950s), >> especially children's rhymes (Liar Liar, 1958) >> >> WEST VIRGINIA FOLKLORE, Summer 1952, vol. II. no. 4 >> Pg. 13: >> Finger Games >> >> Adam and Eve and Pinch-Me-Tight >> Went down to the river to see the fight. >> Adam and Eve got home that night >> And who was left to see the fight? >> >> (When child answers "Pinch Me Tight" the other child pinches him.) >> >> In 1921, Penguin published A. E. Coppard's story collection _Adam and >> Eve and Pinch Me_, which included "Adam and Eve and Pinch Me". The >> story presumably appeared in a magazine some time earlier. > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Oct 12, 1915, p. I9 > Pete said: "Say Bill, tell me this one. Adam, and Eve, and Pinch-me all > went down to bathe; Adam and Eve were drowned, now who was the one to > be > saved." > Friend William gave it the mathematical observation for a moment, and > then > said sprightly: "Pinch-me of course." [Ends in a fight.] > ----- > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." It also > has: > > "Acker, backer, soda cracker, > Acker, backer, boo! > My father chews tobacker, > Out goes you." > > (Or with the third line: "If your father chews tobacker...") > > "As I was going to Salt Lake > I met a little rattlesnake, > He'd e't so much of jelly cake [or "ginger cake"] > It made his little belly ache." > > "Engine number nine, > Stick your head in turpentine. > Turpentine make it shine > Engine number nine." > > ...etc., etc. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 03:18:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:18:58 -0500 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed >that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with >bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty >years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought >the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an >example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" >implied. Here's a relevant snippet from a 1958 article by Ora Spaid, Louisville Courier-Journal Religion Editor, "Does the Term 'Y'All' Have A Biblical Basis? You All Figure It Out." The y'all-ologists disagreed about the term's putative Biblical origins, but they were in accordance on one thing: ----- Oddly enough -- and on this the scholars were agreed -- the Southerner takes an unfair ribbing on his use of "you all." With some exceptions, the Southerner uses "you all" with plural meaning, but his Yankee adversary accuses him of using it in the singular. --Reprinted in: _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio), Sep. 20, 1958, p. 9 ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:30:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:30:40 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about = the South. =20 Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of = in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:38:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:38:51 -0800 Subject: A little more on y'all redux Message-ID: That's an interesting comment. Southerners do get ribbed about using "y'all" - at all ! But Spaid seems to think they're being ribbed for using it as a singular. Which they do on occasion - as Spaid admits. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: A little more on y'all redux ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 17:30:28 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >As far as "hot-button issues" are concerned, Mencken long ago observed >that the literature on "y'all" was "extensive and filled with >bitterness." When I broached the subject in Tennessee nearly thirty >years ago, two or three academic colleagues made clear that they thought >the notion of singular "y'all" was not just preposterous, it was an >example of dismal Yankee and Hollywood ignorance - with "arrogance" >implied. Here's a relevant snippet from a 1958 article by Ora Spaid, Louisville Courier-Journal Religion Editor, "Does the Term 'Y'All' Have A Biblical Basis? You All Figure It Out." The y'all-ologists disagreed about the term's putative Biblical origins, but they were in accordance on one thing: ----- Oddly enough -- and on this the scholars were agreed -- the Southerner takes an unfair ribbing on his use of "you all." With some exceptions, the Southerner uses "you all" with plural meaning, but his Yankee adversary accuses him of using it in the singular. --Reprinted in: _Chronicle Telegram_ (Elyria, Ohio), Sep. 20, 1958, p. 9 ----- --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 03:40:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:40:07 -0500 Subject: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've always been annoyed by the fact that my company ID card reads "RETIREE" instead of "RETIRED." Well, maybe not. I was forced into retirement, so, perhaps, "RETIREE" is fitting, in my case. -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 4:21 PM, sagehen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: sagehen > Subject: Re: Is GENERICIDE a bad choice or morphemes? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> John Baker writes: >> .... But there are other words that are used in senses at odds with >> their >> morphologies. Consider escapee; one would suppose that the person who >> escapes is the escaper, and the person or thing escaped is the >> escapee, >> but a different meaning prevails.... < > ~~~~~~~~ > "Absentee" is an example that I have always thought particularly > silly-looking. > In the case of frequently-seen "retiree" one could suppose the > retirement > was involuntary, which suggests another possibility: "resignee" for > people > actually fired but who are described, for political reasons, as having > resigned (in order to spend more time with their families, or > whatever). > A. Murie > > ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> > From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sat Mar 5 03:46:29 2005 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 22:46:29 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <000601c5212d$667e8620$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: One theory seems to be that a child displaying a characteristic reminiscent of the departed parent (such as red hair) would inspire resentment in the step-parent. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: red-headed stepchild I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 03:54:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 19:54:10 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: Maybe one influence on the expression was the very well-known song "Joe Bowers," with its climactic revelation that "the baby had RED HA'R !" Of course it was an illegitimate baby, but even so.... JL Evan Morris wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Evan Morris Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One theory seems to be that a child displaying a characteristic reminiscent of the departed parent (such as red hair) would inspire resentment in the step-parent. -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com www.word-detective.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Sam Clements Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: red-headed stepchild I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about the South. Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in history? samclem Doing research on a Straightdope subject --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 04:03:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:03:56 -0800 Subject: catharctic Message-ID: Prominent defense attorney Mickey Sherman said tonight on Court TV's "Catherine Crier Live" that he hoped Martha Stewart's stay in the big house was "a catharctic experience." "Catharctic" shows up on the Net nearly a thousand times. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 04:07:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:07:37 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What does "frail" mean in this context? There's also "beat like a rented mule." It appears to say that one would act more viciously toward a rented mule than toward one's own mule. But wouldn't damaging someone else's property cause more trouble than damaging one's own property? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a > red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. > > JL > > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor > about = > the South. =20 > > Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = > treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of > = > in history? > > samclem > Doing research on a Straightdope subject > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 5 04:20:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:20:45 -0500 Subject: A couple of phallicisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2005, at 5:39 AM, neil wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: neil > Subject: Re: A couple of phallicisms > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > on 3/3/05 4:42 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: A couple of phallicisms >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > --> - >> >> My dick was as hard as a molunk chunk >> >> My dick was as hard as times was in 1932 >> >> My dick was so hard that I didn't have enough skin left to close my >> eyes >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Not so much hard as sweet: > > "I don't want to do this." I said. > He stepped back. He had an erection. "You don't like it?" > He rubbed himself with one hand. "My dick's so sweet, it'll give you > cavities." > -- Susanna Moore, 'In The Cut', Picador, London, 1996, 163 > > -Neil Crawford (who has come across 'hard as a policeman's nightstick') > I think that the difference lies between bragging to one's buddies in one case and trying to seduce a potential sexual partner in the other case. -Wilson Gray From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 5 04:44:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:44:23 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <000601c5212d$667e8620$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor about >the South. > >Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be >treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in >history? I don't know of anything earlier. Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. Often a redheaded or cross-eyed or left-handed person was regarded as being a jinx ... along the lines of a black cat. Here are a couple of examples from N'archive: ---------- _Steubenville Herald_, Steubenville OH, 30 Nov. 1896: p. 3(?): <> ---------- _Lincoln Star_, Lincoln NE, 13 April 1934: p. 1: <> ---------- And consider this variant: ---------- _Reno Evening Gazette_, Reno NV, 28 April 1943: p. 2: <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 5 04:56:59 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:56:59 -0500 Subject: Coke In-Reply-To: <20050305002620.19231.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: > In theory. But most people still learn the meaning of "coke" (the soft-drink plant's product )long before they learn the meaning of "coke" (the coca plant's product). So "coke" is presumably more strongly imprinted in their vocabularies than is "coke." > > As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and less common on campus. > > JL > > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM > Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? > = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aryland?= > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 3/4/05 10:57:07 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > > >> "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee.=A0 It= > is=20 >> virtually the only word I hear for it. >>=20 >> The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore -=20 >> perhaps for obvious reasons. >>=20 > > I'd think that the same "obvious reasons" might apply as well to "coke"? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:35:14 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:35:14 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 7:26:42 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, > and less common on campus. > Well, then, wouldn't the taboo work against the retention of coke as a generic for soft drsinks? I agree that coke the drug is more expensive, and it is certainly more dangerous than pot, but it is pretty common in the USA (what does campus have to do with it?), and it is somewhat glamorized among some young people precisely because it is so dangerous. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:42:50 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:42:50 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20A=20little=20more=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?on=20y'all=20redux?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/4/05 6:03:37 PM, GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU writes: > > The development of plural 2nd person pronouns into singulars (often > conveying politeness or formality originally) is motivated psychologically and/or > socially. We all know about the European examples (English you, French vous, > German sie, even Spanish Usted comes from vuestra (2nd person plural possessive) > + merced "grace" - I hope I'm remembering this right).? I believe this is > common elsewhere in the world as well. And in the French and German cases the > polite/formal singular forms retain their plural meanings, so the suggestion > that the transparent plurality of one form might prevent it from developing > into a singular isn't persuasive. > > The development from plural to deferential singular makes sense b/c the > plural is less threateningly direct (e.g. "I wasn't talking about just you, I was > talking about all yall"). So in talking to a social superior you could use > the plural as a more indirect form of address. Eventually the semantic > component of plurality is seen as optional and the form comes to mean "polite" > singular and maybe eventually just singular. I'm sure others on the list can > explain this more eloquently. My point is that,? based on cross-linguistic > evidence, we might expect that yall would develop into a (polite) singular > eventually. Whether or not it actually has done this is a different issue. > Good points, Matt. I'd only respond that (a). the sociocultural situation that brought about the loss of THOU (etc.) was quite different from that of 20th Century America; (b) there seems to be little evidence that Y'ALL is replacing YOU (or even that it is used with any frequency at all, despite the fact that the assertions that singular Y'ALL is "possible" have been going on for generations; and (c) the contrast between "you" and "y'all" is firmly implicit in the thought experiment presented in the second paragraph. From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 05:44:19 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:44:19 EST Subject: the meaning of GENERIC in linguistics Message-ID: Larry Horn's comments (reproduced below) were for me thought-provoking , aND I need to think about them some more. (Thanks, Larry, for the summary of aspects of the Horn-Kleinedler LSA paper, which I think you were indeed kind enough to send me some time in the past.) However, I hope Larry will give me some clarification of just how he is using the term GENERIC in linguistics for words where trademarks are not involved, because he seems to be using the term GENERIC in a way unusual to either linguistics or the law. With respect to trademark law, the term "generic" relates to features of individual words--trademarks are as special kind of proper noun. This is the sense in which it is usually used in lexicography, to my knowlege. In linguistics, to my knowledge, "generic" is a syntactic property of nouns rather than an inherent feature of individual words. That is to say, "man" and "guy" are intrinsically neither generic nor nongeneric; rather, they are construed as "generic" or "nongeneric" in particular linguistic contexts. This is the definition that I find in all introdcutory linguistics textbooks and dictionaries of linguistics, which usually gok on to give such stock examples as the following: GENERIC: Man is an animal that nurses its young. GENERIC: A man should always open a door for a lady. NONGENERIC: A man opened a door for a lady. NONGENERIC: The man was an animal who tried to nurse his young. So I totally agree with Larry that the noun MAN "isn't quite the same as 'kleenex' " with respect to genericness; indeed, lexically, MAN is always potentially either generic or nongeneric, and so is GUY, except insofar as MAN or GUY may be a trademark, which is perfectly possible (though I don't know of any myself off the top of my head). Syntactically, MAN is either generic or nongeneric, depending on the syntax. That is to say, there is indeed a major difference between words such as GUY or MAN and words such as KLEENEX: brand names are intrinsically generic proper nouns, and people give them some kind of special status based on that fact. "autohyponymous" is a term that I am not familiar with, so I have some trouble following Larry's argument below (how a word can be hyponymous to itself is not clear to me). I agree, though, that speakers' use of KLEENEX to refer to tissues in general often times "reflects speakers' knowledge of their meaning" as (1) trademarks (proper nouns) and as (2) the thing that the trademark (proper noun) most frequently refers to (i.e, facial tissues)--indeed, I that hass been pretty much central to my argument all along! On the other hand, speakers' use of ZIPPER to refer to a type of fastener "reflects" only on the latter kind of knowledge. Why Larry and Steve would call MAN a "quasi-generic"--and what the difference is for them between "quasi-generic" and "pseudo-generic"--I'd also like to know about. In a message dated 3/3/05 11:54:12 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > At 9:18 AM -0500 3/3/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > >As for "ignoring usage," it is only by ignoring the FULL data of usage > (i.e., > >taking into account only what people SAY in informal speech, as opposed to > >what they say in other registers, and, more importantly, what they KNOW > about > >the words of the language) that one can justify calling KLEENEX "generic." > > I take your point, but (without retrotting out the arguments I've > already advanced in this thread) I think you're still underestimating > the possibility that what speakers know is that "kleenex" and similar > words are in fact autohyponymous, in which case their *use* as > generics reflects speakers' *knowledge* of their meaning, as with > "Yankee" and other instances of...can we call them "concentrics"? > > >It occurs to me that the whole terminological problem could perhaps be > solved > >by labeling words such as KLEENEX "psuedo-generics" or "quasi-generics," at > >least for purposes of lexicography and other branches of linguistics. I'm > not > >sure how the lawyers would take to that, but this is our profession, not > >theirs. > > In fact I've used these labels for a somewhat different case, that of > *man*, in which (as others have argued before me) speakers don't in > fact behave as though there is a true gender-neutral meaning, but at > the same time there is a sense that isn't strictly male-referential. > (In the paper Steve Kleinedler and I presented on this at the LSA a > few years ago, we invoked Roschian prototypes to provide the > appropriate model for what we called "QG [quasi-generic] _man_".) > I'd argue that this isn't quite the same as "kleenex", which really > does mean 'facial tissue'.? Our paper was a response to an > influential paper by the philosopher Janice Moulton, who claimed that > the notion of "parasitic reference", as defined by genericization of > "kleenex" for 'tissue', "clorox" for 'bleach', etc., should be > extended to the case of "man", and we pointed out various differences > between the two cases leading us to reject this identification, > including the obvious historical one ("kleenex" involved broadening, > "man" involved narrowing).? At the same time we suggested that her > analysis would be directly applicable to the history and current > status of "guy(s)".? There too, as with "kleenex" or "clorox" or > "xerox", we do (I'd argue) need to invoke autohyponymy, not just > careless uses, especially for those speakers who can have an > individual woman in mind in referring to "the other guy", "the next > guy", "just one guy", etc., but arguably also for those (possibly now > a majority) who can refer to mixed-sex or all female groups as > "(those) guys".?? I'd vote to reserve "quasi-generic" for those cases > where no true generic sense is involved, as with (according to me) > "man", as opposed to those where a generic and a specific sense exist > side-by-side, as with (according to me) "kleenex" or "guy(s)".? YMMV, > of course. > > Larry > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 5 05:57:35 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 00:57:35 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 23:44:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a >traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. Often a redheaded or >cross-eyed or left-handed person was regarded as being a jinx ... along the >lines of a black cat. [...] >And consider this variant: > >---------- > >_Reno Evening Gazette_, Reno NV, 28 April 1943: p. 2: > ><ship American," and said that never again must "we allow our merchant >marine to become the nation's cross-eyed stepchild.">> ----- _Chicago Tribune_, Nov 16, 1919, p. 1/7 An advertisement which may be considered a classic appears today in the classified section of The Tribune. It reads: "I own a frame building with two flats and two stores, all vacant except one store. Can find no one to give it better attention than is commonly given by a woman's second husband to her cross-eyed stepchild by the first wife of her first husband. Property is at 5749-51 Wentworth avenue; is all clear and needs many repairs. Make me an offer." ----- (A classic indeed.) --Ben Zimmer From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sat Mar 5 16:00:41 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 10:00:41 -0600 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <20050303172344.78938.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my home, have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. sally donlon From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:09:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:09:41 -0800 Subject: "odds against" = "odds of" Message-ID: Here's another reversal, one which I believe I've heard before on TV news. In _Teach Yourself the Second World War_ (London: Hodder Arnold, 2004), p. 22, historian Alan Farmer writes of the German invasion of 1939: "The odds against Poland's survival were slim." JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:17:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:17:57 -0800 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: To "frail" is a Southeastern term for "beat." It has come to be applied particularly to the very old-time (and likely original) style of playing the five-string banjo by beating on the strings with the nails of the right hand rather than plucking them with the fingers. This latter sense is overlooked by OED - maybe I mentioned this once before. I don't have DARE handy, but OED takes "frail" back to 1851. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does "frail" mean in this context? There's also "beat like a rented mule." It appears to say that one would act more viciously toward a rented mule than toward one's own mule. But wouldn't damaging someone else's property cause more trouble than damaging one's own property? -Wilson Gray On Mar 4, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Don't know about earlier, but I have heard "I'll frail him like a > red-headed stepchild" in Tennessee within the past ten years or less. > > JL > > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: red-headed stepchild > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I can find a 1910 cite in Newspaperarchive that uses this metaphor > about = > the South. =20 > > Is there anything earlier? I can understand that a stepchild might be = > treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of > = > in history? > > samclem > Doing research on a Straightdope subject > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 5 16:28:04 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:28:04 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050304231055.02fe8540@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >samclem: >> I can understand that a stepchild might be >>treated poorly, but why the red-headed? Were red heads thought less of in >>history? > Doug Wilson: >Why "red-headed"? My speculation is that this intensifier reflects a >traditional superstitious aversion to redheads. ~~~~~~~~~ Given that the genetics of hair color is complicated and generally ill-understood, the fact that red-headedness can pop up unexpectedly in families where other coloring predominates could occasion suspicion about parentage. This alone might account for traditional prejudice against red-headedness that seems to occur in many societies. A. Murie From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 5 16:27:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 08:27:50 -0800 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: "Campus" is relevant because my point was that "dope" = Coke seems to be on the way out. In other words, not so much used by young people. "Dope" (marijuana or drugs in general) is more likely to be "discordant" than "coke" because confusion is theoretically possible in non-count utterances like "I'm gonna get _some_ dope" than in count-noun situations like "I'm gonna get _a_ coke." "Dope" = Coke is also a count-noun, but the non-count situations may be enough to help tip the balance against it. Of course, if Bethany is right that "dope" =Coke is still going strong, the whole question is moot. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20aryland? = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 3/4/05 7:26:42 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Coke" (the drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, > and less common on campus. > Well, then, wouldn't the taboo work against the retention of coke as a generic for soft drsinks? I agree that coke the drug is more expensive, and it is certainly more dangerous than pot, but it is pretty common in the USA (what does campus have to do with it?), and it is somewhat glamorized among some young people precisely because it is so dangerous. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sat Mar 5 16:00:39 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:00:39 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions In-Reply-To: <0ea4f3dcec860f0e85c49c6f6aeba7c9@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: And I've just recently learned that in the Pacific Northwest, kids have "Ash Days" when volcanoes blow (Mt. St. Helen's in particular). At 10:00 AM 3/5/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my home, >have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. > >sally donlon From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 19:55:56 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:55:56 EST Subject: catharctic Message-ID: In a message dated Fri, 4 Mar 2005 20:03:56 -0800, Jonathan Lighter writes: > Prominent defense attorney Mickey Sherman said tonight on Court TV's " > Catherine Crier Live" that he hoped Martha Stewart's stay in the big house > was "a catharctic experience." MWCD10 page 181 "catharsis" means "2b a purification or purgation that brings about spiritual renewal or release from tension 3 elimination of a complex by bringing it to consciousness and affording it expression" Either of these two meanings would fit what Sherman said without assuming he made a scatalogical joke. However I prefer "Cathar" meaning "various ascetic and dualistic Christian sects esp. of the later Middle Ages teaching that matter is evil..." Or are you commenting that Sherman made a portmanteau of "carhartic" and "Arctic"? - Jim Landau From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Sat Mar 5 20:03:11 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: Classic? [WAS Re: red-headed stepchild] In-Reply-To: <20050305055739.E65D7F1EBB@spf6-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: The cited quotation piques my curiosity. How old is the vernacular use of "classic" to indicate something particularly amusing? Erik On Mar 5, 2005, at 12:57 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > _Chicago Tribune_, Nov 16, 1919, p. 1/7 > > An advertisement which may be considered a classic appears today in the > classified section of The Tribune. It reads: > "I own a frame building with two flats and two stores, all vacant > except > one store. Can find no one to give it better attention than is commonly > given by a woman's second husband to her cross-eyed stepchild by the > first > wife of her first husband. Property is at 5749-51 Wentworth avenue; is > all > clear and needs many repairs. Make me an offer." > ----- > > (A classic indeed.) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 5 20:22:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 15:22:31 -0500 Subject: the meaning of GENERIC in linguistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:44 AM -0500 3/5/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >Larry Horn's comments (reproduced below) were for me thought-provoking , aND >I need to think about them some more. (Thanks, Larry, for the summary of >aspects of the Horn-Kleinedler LSA paper, which I think you were >indeed kind enough >to send me some time in the past.) However, I hope Larry will give me some >clarification of just how he is using the term GENERIC in >linguistics for words >where trademarks are not involved, because he seems to be using the term >GENERIC in a way unusual to either linguistics or the law. > >With respect to trademark law, the term "generic" relates to features of >individual words--trademarks are as special kind of proper noun. >This is the sense >in which it is usually used in lexicography, to my knowlege. In linguistics, >to my knowledge, "generic" is a syntactic property of nouns rather than an >inherent feature of individual words. That is to say, "man" and "guy" are >intrinsically neither generic nor nongeneric; rather, they are >construed as "generic" >or "nongeneric" in particular linguistic contexts. This is the definition >that I find in all introdcutory linguistics textbooks and dictionaries of >linguistics, which usually gok on to give such stock examples as the >following: > >GENERIC: Man is an animal that nurses its young. >GENERIC: A man should always open a door for a lady. >NONGENERIC: A man opened a door for a lady. >NONGENERIC: The man was an animal who tried to nurse his young. > >So I totally agree with Larry that the noun MAN "isn't quite the same as >'kleenex' " with respect to genericness; indeed, lexically, MAN is always >potentially either generic or nongeneric, and so is GUY, except >insofar as MAN or GUY >may be a trademark, which is perfectly possible (though I don't know of any >myself off the top of my head). Syntactically, MAN is either generic or >nongeneric, depending on the syntax. That is to say, there is indeed a major >difference between words such as GUY or MAN and words such as >KLEENEX: brand names are >intrinsically generic proper nouns, and people give them some kind of special >status based on that fact. Having decided I've over-posted on this thread, I determined to go cold turkey and don't want to open up any new cans of worms. And I fear I can't close this one that easily; there are a number of issues you bring up above that I'll have to defer any response to. But a brief point of clarification on the issue below: >"autohyponymous" is a term that I am not familiar with, so I have some >trouble following Larry's argument below (how a word can be >hyponymous to itself is >not clear to me). "autohyponymy" is a term I've been using since 1984 for the situation arising in precisely the kinds of cases I brought up in connection with that word ("Yankee", "dog", "Frau", "guys", "cow", etc.), in which a lexical item--typically through either semantic broadening or narrowing--has two (or more) senses, one of which includes another. Hyponymy is the relation "collie" or "bitch" bears to "dog" (identifiable with unilateral entailment--all collies/bitches are dogs but not vice versa. But if a bitch is a female dog, its counterpart for a male dog ('a male animal of the family Canidae', in the AHD4's terms) is "dog". Thus "dog" [AHD4's sense #3] is a hyponym of "dog" [AHD4's sense #1], hence an autohyponym. Similarly, the 'Anglo/WASP New Englander' is a hyponym of the 'New Englander' "Yankee", which is a hyponym of the 'northerner' "Yankee", which is a hyponym of the 'U.S. inhabitant' "Yankee"--concentric layers of autohyponymy. This term is more transparent than "genericide", I'd argue--but I promise I won't here. But I'm willing to grant it's not totally transparent, since we're really talking about one sense of a word being a hyponym of another sense of the same word, not literally a word or sense that's hyponymous to itself. > I agree, though, that speakers' use of KLEENEX to refer to >tissues in general often times "reflects speakers' knowledge of their >meaning" as (1) trademarks (proper nouns) and as (2) the thing that >the trademark >(proper noun) most frequently refers to (i.e, facial tissues)--indeed, I that >hass been pretty much central to my argument all along! On the other hand, >speakers' use of ZIPPER to refer to a type of fastener "reflects" >only on the latter >kind of knowledge. > >Why Larry and Steve would call MAN a "quasi-generic"--and what the difference >is for them between "quasi-generic" and "pseudo-generic"--I'd also like to >know about. > > The relevant notion of generic in this case is not the grammatical one (which distinguishes the bare singulars allowed with "woman" and "man"--as in "Man is the only animal that rapes" on either the (putative) generic-human or generic-male-adult-human sense--from the impossible bare singulars with other count nouns barring this use (*Dog is a mammal, *Boy tends to be taller than girl, *Guy drinks beer). Rather, it's the one that comes up in discussions of "he/man" language, in which "generic" seems too ensconced to uproot in the sense of 'sex-neutral'. The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the type Ron alludes to. I will (reluctantly) elaborate if asked, but maybe this is enough for now. Larry From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Mar 5 21:09:52 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 16:09:52 -0500 Subject: English neologisms from Italian Message-ID: A friend and colleague CUNY is renewing research in new words in English from Italian. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. Thanks, David barnhart at highlands.com From Larry at SCROGGS.COM Sat Mar 5 21:28:21 2005 From: Larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:28:21 -0700 Subject: COKE in the Maryland Message-ID: My grandparents, north Georgia 1881-1967, always called Coca-Cola "dope". I was told Coke got that name because the orginal formula contained an extract from the coca bean. I haven't heard anyone call it "dope" for many years. Larry Larry at Scroggs.com Jonathan Lightner wrote: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 07:56:31 -0800 From: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: COKE in the Maryland "Coke" for soft drinkin general is alive and well in East Tennessee. It is virtually the only word I hear for it. The synonymous "dope," however, seems to be on the way out used anymore - perhaps for obvious reasons. JL From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Sat Mar 5 23:03:19 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:03:19 -0500 Subject: red-headed stepchild Message-ID: hi y'all this thread got me to rememberin' livin' on St. Croix USVI mid 70's i loved this very private special info crucian folks talkin bout "inside baby" - in the marriage "outside baby" - not in the marriage - but could be between same family members "backyard baby" - friend from the neighborhood "bush baby" - somting happen during carnival, jump up, rape, fiasco, too drunk to rememba shhhhhh dis a secret kinda thang karen inside baby Creole Talk Mailing List http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Linguistics/Home_Linguistics.html Domino (c) 1990 KSE West Indian Proverbs found in Domino "Little ax cut down big tree" A woman may be small but accomplish big things. "Man Dead, Man Dey" Life will go on in spite of death and if a woman loses her man, there is always another to take his place. Sometimes it feels like: "Ah Buddy, me a jig but no motion" Wok'n like hell but not gettin' anywhere. "Proverbs - an ancient resource, the original sound byte. These morsels of wisdom that make up the Oral Tradition which have successfully passed down knowledge to future generations worked great! before the complications of curriculum interfered with people's ability to internalize snippets of useful and necessary info. " "Now, they educate the knowlege right outta ya." KSE 1998 "Be who you are and say what you feel because the people who mind don't matter and the people who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss "The illiterate of the year 2000 will not be the individual who cannot read and write, but the one who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn." Alvin Toffler <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> /// Karen Ellis /// Educational CyberPlayGround __ /// GUAVABERRY BOOKS - DOMINO \\\/// Traditional Children's Songs Games, Chants from U.S.V.I \X/ 7 Hot Site Awards from New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, \/ Earthlink USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 5 23:38:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) Message-ID: I agree with Larry that maybe it is time to stop this thread for now (or take it private), so I will add only two quick comments myself. 1. I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, "autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). 2. I thank Larry for reminding me that the term GENERIC is also used in morphology to refer to nouns and pronouns that are putatively sex-neutral. I agree with him that "The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the type Ron alludes to." The operative word here is, as I see it, "perniciously." Indeed, so far as I can see, the only thing of importance that these three quite different phenomena have in common is the label GENERIC. The relationship between "Kleenex" and putative "kleenex" does not seem to me to be illuminated in the slightest by confusing the issue with either of the other two uses of "GENERIC." 3. I would be interested in helping to organize a panel on the various issues surrounding the various uses of GENERIC at some conference in the future--perhaps, say, Law and Society in 2006, or, if it is not too late, ANS in 2006 (meeting with LSA/ADS). If anyone is interested in this, let me know. From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Mar 6 00:01:24 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:01:24 -0500 Subject: lanai Message-ID: I was in SW Florida last week where my wife had a workshop on Marco Is; on a rainy day we looked at open houses in new developments in Estero (bet. Ft Meyers and Naples) and was struck by the new-to-me-term "lanai" for an enclosed screened in porch which many of the houses had. Ultimate origin is the name of a Hawaiian island--DARE has "A roofed structure with open sides built near or onto a house; a porch, veranda, or patio." It also notes that it was introduced in Sun City FL by 1982 and unknown in cities that surround it. It obviously has spread since a google search reveals a Mississippi house with one. I would suppose only new houses in the more tropical parts of the country would sport lanais. ________________________________ "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" --Albert Einstein From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 00:41:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:41:02 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <89.22262180.2f5b9cf7@aol.com> Message-ID: At 6:38 PM -0500 3/5/05, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I agree with Larry that maybe it is time to stop this thread for now (or take >it private), so I will add only two quick comments myself. > >1. I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >original." ...which doesn't quite work, since half (or so) of the cases involve those in which the new sense is the superordinate and the older one is the hyponym, as with "guy(s)", "Roman" [for inhabitants of the empire rather than the city], and the full range of antonomasia/genericide examples we've been rehashing. But I do like the query from google about whether I meant to search "autohypnose", which I guess involves hypnotizing yourself in French. Close enough. > I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at least two >other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a useful term to >me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it from now on >whenever I >am in need of such a word, even though this use of strikes me as >somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, "autoerotic" or >"automobile" (just >a matter of taste, of course). Yeah, it's a challenge to come up with a plausible scenario for autohyponymic asphyxiation. > >2. I thank Larry for reminding me that the term GENERIC is also used in >morphology to refer to nouns and pronouns that are putatively >sex-neutral. I agree >with him that "The issue of (intended or purported) sex-neutrality overlaps >perniciously with that of morphological genericity (the bare singular >illustrated above) as well as (ordinary) semantic genericity, of the >type Ron alludes >to." The operative word here is, as I see it, "perniciously." >Indeed, so far as >I can see, the only thing of importance that these three quite different >phenomena have in common is the label GENERIC. The relationship >between "Kleenex" >and putative "kleenex" does not seem to me to be illuminated in the slightest >by confusing the issue with either of the other two uses of "GENERIC." I think it would be relatively straightforward to refer to the first of these as "sex-neutral(ity)", but I'm not sure we can avoid using the now very well-established "generic" for the other two. Maybe we could use "bare singular (count noun)" (BSCN?) for the "man" and "woman" cases. Semantic genericity itself is a many-splendored thing, though, including the varieties of NPs involved (the similarities and differences among bare plurals (Cats are carnivores), indefinite singulars (A cat is a carnivore), and definite singulars (The cat is a carnivore) and the role of "characterizing" sentences. The best treatment I know of is still that in the now 10-year-old _The Generic Book_ (Carlson & Pelletier, eds.), which has a plain white cover with block black and red stenciled letters, making the product look very much like it was pulled from the Generic aisle of the supermarket. More recently, Ariel Cohen has had a lot of useful things to say about generics. The law literature I don't really know. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 00:43:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:43:28 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) Message-ID: I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. I'm sure Jon Lighter has something on this. I was looking through Hoosier Folklore today. Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 78: QUERIES By FRANCES J. BAUGHMAN (...) THe other query is about a cadence count used by high school students for keeping step when a group walked together. The part I remember went like this: Left, left, I left my wife and forty-nine kids. That's right, right... Does anyone remember all of this particular cadence count or other forms of cadence counts? Bloomington, Indiana Hoosier Folklore, September, 1947, vol. VI, no. 3, pg. 109: CADENCE COUNTS There have been several replies to a query by Frances J. Baughman about cadence counts (see _HF_ 6:78). THese replies indicate that the counts are widespread and varied. Illinois Left-- Left-- Left my wife in Starving condition and Nothing but johnnycakes Left-- Left... >From Eva H. McIntosh, Carbondale, Illinois. Minnesota Left! Right! Left--Left-- I left my wife And seventeen children In starving condition WIth nothing but Johnnycake left. Was I right-- Was I right when I left? I left my wife, etc, _da capo_, _ad inf._ >From Leslie Dae Lindau, COlordao State College of Education, Greeley, Colorado, who heard it about thirty years ago. Indiana 1. Miss Caroline Dunn learned this one in a Girl Scout troop about the time of World War I. Left, Left Left a wife and forty-six children. Don't you think that I had a Right, right? 2. This one Miss Dunn learned from Sue WHite, who remembers it from high school days, four or five years ago. Left, Left I left my wife and twenty-one kids Back home in bed in a starving condition Without any gingerbread Left, left. (Pg. 110--ed.) First I hired her Then I fired her THen, by golly She left Left, left... 3. About this one Miss Dunn remarks: "We liked this one for keeping step and regarded it as a little wild because of the 'swear words' in it." Keep step, keep step, Keep step, gosh darn it, keep step. You've got it, now keep it, Don't lose it, doggone it, Keep step, doggone it, keep step. >From Miss Caroline Dunn, WIlliam Henry Smith Memorial Library, Indianapolis, Indiana. 4. Paul G. Brewster says he remembers using thjis one during the first World War. The "hayfoot, strawfoot," he adds, comes from Civil War days when green country recruits often did not know their right feet from their left. The drill sergeants had them tie hay to their left feet and straw on their right feet. Hayfoot, strawfoot Belly full of bean soup Left-- Left-- Left my wife And fourteen children. Did I do right-- Right-- Right when I left? >From Paul G. Brewster, Bloomington, Indiana. Hoosier FOlklore, June 1948, Vol. VII, no. 2, pg. 54: CADENCE COUNT By EVA H. McINTOSH The following was obtained from a friend in Equality, Illinois. Left-- Left-- Left my wife and Fifty-nine kids in the Middle of the kitchen in a Starving condition with Nothing but gingerbread Left-- Did I do right, --right by me Country but wrong by my Family. By gosh I Had a good job but I Left-- Left-- (repeat) (For other forms of cadence Counts see _HF_ 6:109-110.--The Editor.) Carbondale, Illinois Pg. 57: MORE CADENCE COUNTS By GRACE PARTRIDGE SMITH AND JANE MILLER Since the publication of several cadence counts in _HF_ 6:109-10, September, 1947, two more variants have been submitted, from Indiana and Iowa. _Iowa_ Contributed by Grace Partridge Smith who says, "My daughter, Ilse SMith Addicks, of Washington, D. C., remembers the following count from her school days in Iowa City, Iowa. SHe dates it from about 1912-1914 when she was in the grades. COming home from school four and five girls would link arms, stomp along the sidewalk, singing the cadence as indicated." Left, left-- I had to be home When I left!-- I left my wife And seventeen children All in a starving condition WIth nothing but brown--bread-- Left, left-- I had to be home When I left!-- _Indiana_ Contributed by Jane Miller, Kokomo, Indiana, w2ho learned the following count near West Middleton, in Howard COunty. Left, left-- Left my wife and forty-five kids The old gray mare and the peanut stand. Did I do Right? Right! Right from the country Where I came from. Haystack, Strawstack! Skip by jingo. Left, left-- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 00:55:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:55:18 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) Message-ID: I forgot to add this...There are a lot of variation to search for this one. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Julie Stampnitzky Mar 30 2000, 12:00 am show options Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom From: Julie Stampnitzky Date: 2000/03/30 Subject: Re: The hole in the Virgin Mary's roof (was Re: Tea) On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Beth Friedman wrote: > Left, left, left right left > I left my wife and 48 children > Alone in the kitchen in starving condition > With nothing but gingerbread > Left, left, left right left. The versions I learned as a kid had a slightly different rhythm. Left, left, left my wife and 40 kids Right, right, right in the middle of the kitchen floor. and Left, left, left my wife and 40 kids I thought it was right, right... -- Julie Stampnitzky http://www.yucs.org/~jules Rehovot, Israel http://neskaya.darkover.cx (GOOGLE) http://dragon.sleepdeprived.ca/songbook/songs4/S4_29.htm I Left My... There appears to be a number of different versions of this song. Here is the one I know: Left, left, left right left I left my wife in Argentina With 52 kids and a laughing hyena I thought I was right, right, Right in my country and whoop-de-doo! Left, left! I left my wife... Your left foot comes down on each "left" in the march. At the "whoop-de-do!" you do this little jig so that your left foot will come down on the "left" in the next line. Here are a couple of other versions: I had a good home and I left I had a good home and I left I left on my own and it served me right, Left, right left right. (Courtesy of Eileen Kermode, posted to the WAGGGS-L Mailing List) I left my wife and foty-eight kids On the verge of starvation with only one hamburger Left, left to the left, right, left. (Courtesy of Beth Fausnaugh, posted to the WAGGGS-L Mailing List) Thanks very much to an anonymous Guide from the Jersey Channel Islands, who sent me this version! I left, left, I left my wife in New Orleans With thirty-five kids and a bucket of beans I thought it was right, right, Right for my country whoop-ee-doo! Left, left, I left... (courtesy of Kathi Livas) Left, left, Left my wife and forty-eight kids on the edge of starvation without any gingerbread. Did I do right, right? Right to my country but not to my flag. Skip by jingo (do shuffle/skip step to end up on left foot) Left, left... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 00:57:00 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:57:00 -0500 Subject: Crosspost from LL, Disc: New: Isoglosses and the Midland Message-ID: As always, responses should go to the poster, Mr. Kun, as well as to the list. Larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-655. Sat Mar 05 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.655, Disc: New: Isoglosses and the Midland Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:39:04 From: Tom Kun < tomkun83 at hotmail.com > Subject: Isoglosses and the Midland I have two questions, pertaining to an article I just read which was apparently written by Charles-James Bailey (http://www.orlapubs.com/AL/L31.html). My first question would be, why is the concept of isoglosses still used if it's so inaccurate? And second, is there any kind of consensus of the concept of a Midland in the US? Kurath defined a ''North Midland'' (north of the Ohio River) and a ''South Midland'' (Appalachians). Carver labeled those regions ''Lower North'' and ''Upper South.'' The forthcoming Atlas of North American English (Labov, Boberg, Ash) limits the Midland to the North Midland and makes the South Midland part of the South (I think that's the best definition, considering the Northern and Southern vowel shifts). Bailey calls the Midland ''mythology'' and ''one of the worst flights of fancy in linguistics.'' Linguistic Field(s): Sociolinguistics ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-655 --- end forwarded text From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 01:25:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 20:25:04 -0500 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: _AN ENDLESS TALE_ I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger generations. "That's tough!" "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." "Where d'you get it?" "Drugstore." "What's it cost?" "A dime." "shucks, I only got a nickel." "That's tough. "What's tough?" (etc.) Indiana University Ernest Baughman (GOOGLE) DO YOU KNOW LYRICS ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh what's life? A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages Washingtonpost.com: Live Online ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How much does it cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - Supplemental Result - Similar pages Cauldron ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life Person one: A magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person two: How ... epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages yourDictionary.com ? Agora Discussion Board ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: Life, What's Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet come up with an answer. It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer asks What's tough?? The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A magazine.? Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? ?Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best bet. Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety ? popular and memorable songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is full.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where the Sidewalk Begins Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 01:37:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 17:37:31 -0800 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ (1947): "You remind me of a man." "What man?" "The man with the Power!" "What power?" "Hoodoo." "Hoodoo?" "You do!" "Do what?" "Remind me of a man." "What man?" Repeat till dead. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: _AN ENDLESS TALE_ I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger generations. "That's tough!" "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." "Where d'you get it?" "Drugstore." "What's it cost?" "A dime." "shucks, I only got a nickel." "That's tough. "What's tough?" (etc.) Indiana University Ernest Baughman (GOOGLE) DO YOU KNOW LYRICS ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh what's life? A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages Washingtonpost.com: Live Online ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How much does it cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - Supplemental Result - Similar pages Cauldron ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life Person one: A magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person two: How ... epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages yourDictionary.com ??? Agora Discussion Board ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: Life, What's Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet come up with an answer. It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer asks What's tough?? The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A magazine.? Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? ???Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best bet. Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety ??? popular and memorable songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is full.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Where the Sidewalk Begins Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 03:03:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:03:51 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were drowned -- Who was saved? Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on him. ----- The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do parking tickets!--Barry Popik) -------------------------------------------------------------- Some stuff from two magazines. Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go swimming." Pg. 249: Adam and Eve and Pinch-me Went down to the river to bathe; Adam and Eve were drownded; Who was saved? Pg. 254: Here's the church And there's the steeple; Open it up And see the people. Pg. 255: I recall three of these: Engine, engine, number nine, Running on Chicago time. Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, How many monkeys have we here? Nigger, nigger, never die, Black face and shiny eye. Pg. 256: Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. Pg. 257: What goes up must come down Either on heads or on the ground. Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, Mary soon had a pain in the belly. Innocuous ditties: I know something, I won't tell: Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be 1951--ed.) Johnny get your gun And sword and pistol; Johnny get your gun And fifteen cents. Pg. 259: Corn-planting chant: One for the blackbird, Two for the crow Three for the cutworm, And four to grow. (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) Pg. 260: Miscellaneous: Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, Never worked [washed] and never will. Sold agin and got the tin And a little box to put it in. Good Night! Sleep tight! Don't let the bedbugs bite. If you getto Heaven before I do, Tell them that I'm comin' too. A peach-tree in the orchard grew, 'Tis true! Oh! listen to my tale of woe. When I was single, My pockets did jingle, And I wish I was single again. Oh! how the boarders yell, Oh! how the beans do smell, Oh how the boarders yell-- Three times a day. I've been working on the levee All the whole long day; I'v been workin' on the levee Just to pass the time away. Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: Cin, Cinn, A needle and a pin, A skinny and a fatty; And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. Contributed by Paul Weer: A bottle and a cork, A jug and a fork, And that's the way to spell New York. Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: 9. _Lemonade_ Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second team to select something to demonstrate. Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) Pg. 14: 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, All in free. (Ind.) Pg. 19: F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) G. _Simple Simon_ All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a forfeit. (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) Reference: Gomme, II, 383. Pg. 21: Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? Pg. 22: Do this way, and this way and that? Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is doing. (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) _Lemonade_ A. Here we come. B. Where from? A. New York. B. WHat's your trade? A. Lemonade. B. Get to work. Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last line may be replaced by: 1. How's it made? (Ind.) 2. Give us some. (Ill.) 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) Two versions differ markedly from the rest: 1. A. Pennsylvania, Bum, bum, bum. Here I come. B. What's your trade? Pg. 23: A. Lemonade. B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) 2. A. What's your state? B. New York. A. What's your trade? B. Lemonade. (Ind.) References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. Pg. 31: Here's the church And here's the steeple. Open the doors, And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the figures. References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 03:18:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:18:22 -0500 Subject: lanai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It depends on what you consider "new." A friend built a lanai onto the patio of my mother's house in Sacramento, CA, in 1970. The person who built the lanai was a native of Hawaii. He and my mother use the word with such ease, correcting me every time that I tried to refer to the lanai as a "sunporch," that I got the impression that the fact that *I* had never heard this word before was sheer coincidence. This particular lanai is, as described below, an enclosed, screened-in, roofed porch built, in this case, around and over a patio. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 7:01 PM, David Bergdahl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Bergdahl > Subject: lanai > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I was in SW Florida last week where my wife had a workshop on Marco > Is; on a > rainy day we looked at open houses in new developments in Estero (bet. > Ft > Meyers and Naples) and was struck by the new-to-me-term "lanai" for an > enclosed screened in porch which many of the houses had. Ultimate > origin is > the name of a Hawaiian island--DARE has "A roofed structure with open > sides > built near or onto a house; a porch, veranda, or patio." It also notes > that > it was introduced in Sun City FL by 1982 and unknown in cities that > surround > it. It obviously has spread since a google search reveals a > Mississippi > house with one. I would suppose only new houses in the more tropical > parts > of the country would sport lanais. > ________________________________ > "Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht" > --Albert Einstein > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 6 03:25:59 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:25:59 -0500 Subject: "Left! Left! I left my wife and 49 kids..." (Hoosier Folklore) In-Reply-To: <036F49CD.2F740433.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: The version I learned was: Left, left, Left my wife & forty-eight kids To starve to death On nothing but gingerbread. Left, left (repeat.....) A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 03:30:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:30:21 -0500 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was also used in a Hitchcock movie starring Cary Grant. The name and the date escape me, but the date is definitely post-1947. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." > (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ > (1947): > > "You remind me of a man." > "What man?" > "The man with the Power!" > "What power?" > "Hoodoo." > "Hoodoo?" > "You do!" > "Do what?" > "Remind me of a man." > "What man?" > > Repeat till dead. > > JL > > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest > Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: > > _AN ENDLESS TALE_ > > I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going > through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina > (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he > get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger > generations. > > "That's tough!" > "What's tough?" > "Life." > "What's life?" > "A magazine." > "Where d'you get it?" > "Drugstore." > "What's it cost?" > "A dime." > "shucks, I only got a nickel." > "That's tough. > "What's tough?" (etc.) > > Indiana University Ernest Baughman > > > (GOOGLE) > DO YOU KNOW LYRICS > ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh > what's life? > A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... > www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages > > Washingtonpost.com: Live Online > ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How > much does it > cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... > discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - > Supplemental Result - Similar pages > > Cauldron > ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life > Person one: A > magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person > two: How ... > epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& > REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - > Cached - Similar pages > > yourDictionary.com ??? Agora Discussion Board > ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: > Life, What's > Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... > www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ > agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - > Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm > FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 > DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet > come up with an answer. > > It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or > early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. > > In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer > asks What's tough?? > > The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A > magazine.? > > Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find > nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? > ???Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio > > DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the > information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for > Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). > > Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to > your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists > CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). > > Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to > find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best > bet. > > Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. > 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety ??? popular and memorable > songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio > ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do > get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is > full.. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Where the Sidewalk Begins > Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, > D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): > "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did > you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. > THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." > > 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be > true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. > By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): > In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the > title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or > cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. > It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A > magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I > only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 03:34:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 19:34:27 -0800 Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) Message-ID: Cary Grant and Shirley Temple were the peach of a pair in _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This was also used in a Hitchcock movie starring Cary Grant. The name and the date escape me, but the date is definitely post-1947. -Wilson Gray On Mar 5, 2005, at 8:37 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." > (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Something comparable from the film, _The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer_ > (1947): > > "You remind me of a man." > "What man?" > "The man with the Power!" > "What power?" > "Hoodoo." > "Hoodoo?" > "You do!" > "Do what?" > "Remind me of a man." > "What man?" > > Repeat till dead. > > JL > > Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: "What's tough?" "Life." "What's life?" "A magazine." (1945) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, Bloomington, Indiana, edited by Ernest > Baughman, vol. IV, no. 2, June 1945, pg. 37: > > _AN ENDLESS TALE_ > > I heard my sister, May Lou Baughman, age 17, of Kouts, Indiana, going > through this the other day. I asked where she had heard it. "From Lina > (Martin)." "Where'd she hear it?" "From Wesley Birkey." "Where'd he > get it?" "Hard telling." Anyway here it is, from the younger > generations. > > "That's tough!" > "What's tough?" > "Life." > "What's life?" > "A magazine." > "Where d'you get it?" > "Drugstore." > "What's it cost?" > "A dime." > "shucks, I only got a nickel." > "That's tough. > "What's tough?" (etc.) > > Indiana University Ernest Baughman > > > (GOOGLE) > DO YOU KNOW LYRICS > ... 23 Sep 2003 - (1) 50s or 60s oldie. "OH what's tough? Life. Oh > what's life? > A magazine. Well how much does it cost? It costs 20 cents. ... > www.commsoft.lk/doyouknowlyrics03.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages > > Washingtonpost.com: Live Online > ... Alexandria, VA: What's tough? Life. What's Life? A Magazine. How > much does it > cost? A Dime. Only have a Nickel. That's tough! What's tough? ... > discuss.washingtonpost.com/ zforum/99/auto_rate991229.htm - > Supplemental Result - Similar pages > > Cauldron > ... Person two: What's tough? Person one: Life Person two: What's life > Person one: A > magazine Person two: Where'd you get it Person one: News Stand Person > two: How ... > epic-mag.com/cauldron3/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote& > REPLY_ID=2301&TOPIC_ID=189&FORUM_ID=3 - 72k - Supplemental Result - > Cached - Similar pages > > yourDictionary.com ??? Agora Discussion Board > ... I remember a song called That's tough. It goes; What's tough: > Life, What's > Life: a magazine, how much does it cost? it costs 20 ... > www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/ > agora.cgi?board=idiom;action=display;num=1044550287 - 78k - > Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages > > > (GOOGLE) > http://www.jerryosborne.com/5-26-03.htm > FOR THE WEEK OF MAY 26, 2003 > DEAR JERRY: Here's a question I've asked everyone and no one has yet > come up with an answer. > > It's about a song I heard on American Bandstand in the late '50s or > early '60s. I need to know the exact title as well as who recorded it. > > In this tune the backup singers say What's tough,?then the lead singer > asks What's tough?? > > The chorus responds with Life,?and he asks What's life??They answer A > magazine.? > > Someone suggested it is So Tough,?by the Cufflinks, but I can find > nothing at all on this song or artist. Can you help? > ???Barry W. Scholles, Dover, Ohio > > DEAR BARRY: What's really tough? Apparently it has been getting the > information you seek about What's Life (That's Tough),?a 1962 hit for > Gabriel and the Angels (Swan 4118). > > Finding an original 45 is one way to add What's Life (That's Tough)?to > your collection, though it also exists on at least one various artists > CD: Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. 2?(Ace CDCHD 445). > > Ace is a British reissue company, so this import may be difficult to > find in the US shops. Shopping for it online is probably your best > bet. > > Most of the 30 tracks on Golden Age of American Rock and Roll, Vol. > 2?are of the Gabriel and the Angels variety ??? popular and memorable > songs by artists with one or maybe two hits. > > > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) > Zanesville Signal Sunday, January 20, 1957 Zanesville, Ohio > ...of; many nastv breaks. VCnat's LIFE? LIFE is a MAGAZINE. Where do > get it" At.....AND Coach Wayne Ashbaugh. THAT'S TOUGH, but LIFE is > full.. > > > (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) > Where the Sidewalk Begins > Michael Dirda. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, > D.C.: Nov 6, 1988. p. BO16 (1 page): > "That's tough! What's tough? Life. What's life? A magazine. Where did > you get it? Newsstand. How much? Fifteen cents. I've only a dime. > THat's tough! What's tough? Life...." > > 'The Cover of Life': A Family in Wartime; A story 'too good to be > true' and a magazine correspondent's discoveries. > By ALVIN KLEINTEANECK. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, > N.Y.: Dec 13, 1992. p. NJ19 (1 page): > In the end, the incessancy of a theme, a relentless play on the > title--the inside scoop on life's necessary covers, or > cover-ups--brings to mind an endless riddle that went round long ago. > It went like this: That's tough. WHat's tough? Life. What's life? A > magazine. How much? Fifty cents. (Remember, we're talking long ago.) I > only have a nickel. That's tough. Etc. > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 6 04:27:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest > Folklore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Ben Zimmer writes: > > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." > > > (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do > parking tickets!--Barry Popik) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Some stuff from two magazines. > > > Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: > The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go > swimming." Then "then" must be some unspecified pre-WWII date and not 1951? > > Pg. 249: > Adam and Eve and Pinch-me > Went down to the river to bathe; > Adam and Eve were drownded; > Who was saved? > > Pg. 254: > Here's the church > And there's the steeple; > Open it up > And see the people. > > I recall three of these: > > Engine, engine, number nine This is also the name of an R&B song by Wilson Pickett. I don't like the song, so I've never listened to the words. > , > Running on Chicago time. > > Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, > How many monkeys have we here? > > Nigger, nigger, never die, > Black face and shiny eye. > > Pg. 256: > Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, > Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. > > Pg. 257: > What goes up must come down > Either on heads or on the ground. > Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, > Mary soon had a pain in the belly. > > Innocuous ditties: > > I know something, I won't tell: > Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be > 1951--ed.) > > Johnny get your gun > And sword and pistol; > Johnny get your gun > And fifteen cents. > > Pg. 259: > Corn-planting chant: > > One for the blackbird, > Two for the crow > Three for the cutworm, > And four to grow. > (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies > mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) In St. Louis, I learned a variant of this as a chant to start a footrace: One for the money Two for the show Three to make ready And four to GO! > > Pg. 260: > Miscellaneous: > > Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, > Never worked [washed] and never will. In Texas, we said: Curly-head Bill from the western hill [no other lines] > > Sold agin and got the tin > And a little box to put it in. > > Good Night! Sleep tight! > Don't let the bedbugs bite. > > If you getto Heaven before I do, > Tell them that I'm comin' too. > > A peach-tree in the orchard grew, > 'Tis true! > Oh! listen to my tale of woe. > > When I was single, > My pockets did jingle, > And I wish I was single again. > > Oh! how the boarders yell, > Oh! how the beans do smell, > Oh how the boarders yell-- > Three times a day. > > I've been working on the levee > All the whole long day; > I'v been workin' on the levee > Just to pass the time away. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: > Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: > Cin, Cinn, > A needle and a pin, > A skinny and a fatty; > And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. > > Contributed by Paul Weer: > A bottle and a cork, > A jug and a fork, > And that's the way to spell New York. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: > 9. _Lemonade_ > Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each > chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. > Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something > to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" > team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other > team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) > second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The > second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The > second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may > vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to > demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There > may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the > first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the > other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second > team to select something to d! > emonstrate. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: > If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: > > 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) > 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) > Pg. 14: > 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) > 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, > All in free. (Ind.) > > Pg. 19: > F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ > At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, > two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The > formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls > scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap > those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. > (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) In St. Louis, this name of this game is "John Cane Pone" (it sounds like that, in any case) and there was no penalty for losing other than "Gotcha!" > > G. _Simple Simon_ > All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the > statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other > instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a > forfeit. > (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) > Reference: Gomme, II, 383. > > Pg. 21: > Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Pg. 22: > Do this way, and this way and that? > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is > doing. > (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) > > _Lemonade_ > > A. Here we come. > B. Where from? > A. New York. > B. WHat's your trade? > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. > > Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, > two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last > line may be replaced by: > 1. How's it made? (Ind.) > 2. Give us some. (Ill.) > 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) > 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) > The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) > > Two versions differ markedly from the rest: > > 1. A. Pennsylvania, > Bum, bum, bum. > Here I come. > B. What's your trade? > Pg. 23: > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) > 2. A. What's your state? > B. New York. > A. What's your trade? > B. Lemonade. (Ind.) > > References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, > Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX > (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. > > Pg. 31: > Here's the church > And here's the steeple. > Open the doors, > And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) > The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the > figures. This is the version that I learned as a kid in Texas -Wilson Gray > References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 6 06:12:24 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 01:12:24 -0500 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) In-Reply-To: <89.22262180.2f5b9cf7@aol.com> Message-ID: Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a specialization of the usual early sense "whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". ---------- _Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: p. 2, col. 4: [by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 07:53:28 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:53:28 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at >least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a >useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it >from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of > strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, >"autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). Those of a structuralist bent would understand what Larry describes in terms of "markedness". An autohyponym is the "unmarked" of two items asymmetrically opposed in a markedness relationship. I don't know if Larry's 1984 piece (NELS, "Ambiguity, negation, and the London School of Parsimony"?) relates autohyponymy to markedness, but here's something that does: ------------------- http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B iff everything that falls under B also falls under A. In this case, B is called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and 'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] It is a frequent situation that one expression can serve as its own hyponym (so-called AUTOHYPONYMS). We often find this with names of biological kinds, when gender is a factor. For example, 'dog' is a term for dogs in general, but can also be used for male dogs and is then contrasted with 'bitch'. The noun 'cow' is used for female cattle, but also for cattle in general, whereas 'bull' is used for male cattle only. In structuralist terms, 'dog' and 'cow' are UNMARKED, and 'bitch' and 'bull' are MARKED. The marked or unmarked status sometimes is reflected in morphological complexity; cf. 'lion' as the unmarked expression and 'lioness' as the marked expression. The autohyponym is often the expression that denotes the thing or concept that is considered more typical or more frequent. ------------------- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 08:31:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 03:31:00 -0500 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:03:51 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4 >Pg. 254: >Here's the church >And there's the steeple; >Open it up >And see the people. [...] >Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1 >Pg. 31: >Here's the church >And here's the steeple. >Open the doors, >And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) >The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the figures. > >References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. This was already "time-honored" in 1907, according to this non-PC account: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 27, 1907, p. 6 A little southern girl was illustrating on her fingers the time honored, "Here's the church and here's the steeple; open the door and you'll see all the people." "Pretty dirty people," said grandma, looking at the soiled hands. "But they are colored people," was the quick reply. ----- --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 09:43:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 04:43:10 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 10:40:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 05:40:14 -0500 Subject: Gapers' Block (1961) Message-ID: The digitized Chicago Tribune is now at December 1963. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) A $400,000,000 ASSET GOES TO WASTE Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 27, 1961. p. 20 (1 page) He also did not measure the time lost from "gapers' blocks"--delays caused when passing motorists go slowly past the wreckage. HIGHBROWS ARE GETTING THE LOWDOWN; Taking Lessons from Flying Cop HAL FOUST. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 2, 1962. p. 12 (1 page): A group of traffic engineers with assorted college degrees--some of them really highbrows--are monitoring a Chicago policeman in hopes of improving the English they use in their profession. The policeman is Irv Hayden, a high school graduate who broadcasts rush hour guidance to motorists from the W-G-N helicopter. He sharpened his English by issuing orders as an officer in the military police and as a patrolman by giving advice and tickets to motorists and truck drivers before he took to the air. (...) Among the Haydenisms nominated for academic recognition are: "gapers block," backup," "loosening," and "tight pocket." The expressions are descriptive and require no definition. They are familiar to all expressway drivers and all W-G-N listeners during the rush hours, all who commute behind the wheel hoping for Hayden to report traffic ahead as "heavy but steady." From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 10:51:09 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 02:51:09 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 10:59:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 05:59:57 -0500 Subject: Keep It Simple, Stupid (1960) Message-ID: Project KISS? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) WASHINGTON Scrapbook WALTER TROHAN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 4, 1960. p. 43 (1 page): Rear Adm. Paul D. Stroop, chief of the navy's weapons bureau, has instituted "Project KISS" to increase the reliability and reduce the cost of the military gadgets his organizations produces. "KISS" stands for "Keep it simple, stupid." This Morning ...; This Morning ... With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 8, 1964. p. C1 (2 pages) Pg. C3: When Ara Parseghian was coaching at Northwestern he mystified his assistants by writing his coaching philosophy on the blackboard in four letters, "KISS." Then he explained its meaning: "Keep It Simple, Stupid." From preston at MSU.EDU Sun Mar 6 13:23:25 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050306105109.53389.qmail@web41523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is an alternative etymology in which "do-rag" is "dew-rag," and "dew" is a euphemism for sweat, the current "do-rag" folk-etymologized from it. Google gives us 24,300 hits for "do rag," and only 3,550 for "dew rag," but if you look to the biker crowd, the decided preference is for "doo rag" - 35,600 hits. (Several of these hits are for an alternative/indie group known as "(Arizona's) Doo Rag.") Just for variationists, however, is this ad: Doo Rags Wholesale We sell a variety of Dew Rags No Minimums, Low Shipping Cost. www.wholesaleforeveryone.com Too bad it ain't got a "do" version too. By the way, the first "doo rag" Google hit shows y'all bikers like Ron, larry, arnold, and Barry how to sew your own. Hope to see you guys in better style the next time. dInIs >Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep >processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba >to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of >material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" >before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? > >I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html >I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on >the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any >other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. > >''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, >''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or >men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . >. but some young African-American men are masters at transforming >the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes >that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, >was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' > >Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by >Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San >Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the >metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school >officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece >of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; >garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. >The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a >scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved >mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a >paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. > > >(JSTOR) >Take Care of Business >Marvin X >The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >1968), pp. 85-92 >Pg. 85: >WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >typical college student. > > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. > > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From einstein at FROGNET.NET Sun Mar 6 14:38:52 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:38:52 -0500 Subject: lanai Message-ID: I googled "lanai" and found references for San Diego, Phoenix, Miss., NC ... even NZ!! One site defined it as a "Hawaiian garden porch." What's interesting to me is that there are obviously two centers for spreading use as a term: one from Hawaii and the other from Florida. From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sun Mar 6 14:57:46 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:57:46 +0000 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 6 15:17:49 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:17:49 -0500 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050306005722.03002840@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Hootnanny/ Hootenanny My first encounter with this word was as the tradename of a pantograph marketed as a child's toy, late 30s or early 40s. Can't remember if it was spelled with or without the /e/ or which mfr. produced it. I suppose it was the sense of thingamajig that was being referred to. A. Murie ~~~~~~~~ >Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a >specialization of the usual early sense >"whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". > >---------- > >_Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: >p. 2, col. 4: > >[by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] > ><without hootnannies. A hootnanny is what the soldiers call a cootie.>> > >---------- > >-- Doug Wilson A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:18:57 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 09:18:57 -0600 Subject: Re. do rag Message-ID: While in undergraduate school, beginning in about 1972, my housemates and I hosted periodic "Do Rag and Cracker" parties. The mass printed invitations claimed the "Center for Cultural Deviance" as host, and encouraged guests to "bring your own do rag and crackers." Most people at the time did not know the first reference, but a few understood the bi-racial implication through association with the second. Baskets filled with bandannas and soda crackers by the front door helped to further the theme. I still occasionally overhear people I've never met -- or can't remember -- reminiscing about this series of about five events. This, of course, was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... sally donlon From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 15:38:50 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:38:50 EST Subject: Dictionaries Online Message-ID: In a message dated 2/8/05 11:53:41 AM, JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes: > ? ? ? ? I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is > probably the best free modern dictionary online.? For a far more comprehensive > (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the Century > Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at > http://www.global-language.com/century/.? Urbandictionary.com is unreliable but can be a useful guide to recent > slang.? I don't use Merriam-Webster's online website, http://www.m-w.com/, > because I have the collegiate dictionary on my desktop.? I'd love to have a > subscription to the online OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first. > > John Baker > > Because M-W and A-H are online, I keep a hard copy of the New Oxford American on MY desk (as did Larry Horn in recommendingof A-H, I should come out and say that I am doubtless a BIT prejudiced towards NOAD because I am on the Editorial Advisory Board, but I also should say that I am proud to be associated with NOAD and that it is a wonderful desktop dictionary). None of these is an unabridged dictionary, however. If you pay M-W, they will give you access to their online "unabridged" dictionary, and I do pay them because it is quite good. But it is nothing like the OAD online. I am fourtunate in that I can get OAD online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OAD online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:50:55 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:50:55 +0100 Subject: Dictionaries Online In-Reply-To: <20050306153857.EC7744873@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Ron recommends OAD online. What's the URL? Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 6 15:52:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:52:17 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:23:25 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >There is an alternative etymology in which "do-rag" is "dew-rag," and >"dew" is a euphemism for sweat, the current "do-rag" >folk-etymologized from it. The "dew-rag" spelling also goes back to 1966 on Newspaperarchive... ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio) Oct. 12, 1966, p. 60 [?], col. 1 There is no relationship between a kid with a dew rag on his head throwing flaming bottles of gasoline and the constitutional rights of a race of people. ----- --Ben Zimmer >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" >>before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? >> >>(JSTOR) >>Take Care of Business >>Marvin X >>The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >>1968), pp. 85-92 >>Pg. 85: >>WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >>typical college student. >> >> >>(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >>17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >>Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >>do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 16:03:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:03:09 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <59438.24.225.220.222.1110095608.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 2:53 AM -0500 3/6/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 18:38:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > >>I did find two instances of "autohyponymy" through Google, one of which >>defined it as the case where "the new sense of a term is a hyponym of the >>original." I now see that this is a term of his own creation and that at >>least two other linguists have also used it since 1984. It looks like a >>useful term to me, so I'm glad he coined it and I am sure I will use it >>from now on whenever I am in need of such a word, even though this use of >> strikes me as somewhat eccentric compared to the use in, say, >>"autoerotic" or "automobile" (just a matter of taste, of course). > >Those of a structuralist bent would understand what Larry describes in >terms of "markedness". An autohyponym is the "unmarked" of two items >asymmetrically opposed in a markedness relationship. I don't know if >Larry's 1984 piece (NELS, "Ambiguity, negation, and the London School of >Parsimony"?) relates autohyponymy to markedness, but here's something that >does: > >------------------- >http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf > Interesting convergence. Manfred Krifka, whose course material is posted at the above website, is one of the principal authors in _The Generic Book_, which I was just citing last night in my "final posting" on the genericide debate. Well, yes, I do relate autohyponymy to markedness, but it's a fairly complex relation. Some cases of markedness don't involve autohyponymy, of course--the tall/short, wide/narrow classes of marked/marked adjective pairs, for example. The unmarked term has wider distribution and is less informative in those cases (as with the autohyponym like "finger" vs. its cohyponym "thumb"), but the marked term doesn't really count as a hyponym of the unmarked in those cases. In other cases, as with "drink" ('imbibe') vs. "drink" ('imbibe alcoholically'), we have autohyponymy but no markedness (since there's no marked member of a lexical opposition. Then there are the problems with the concept of markedness itself, the difference between morphological/formal markedness and semantic markedness--happy/sad illustrates the latter but not the former, happy/unhappy illustrates both, and neither involves autohyponymy. And then there are the uses in acquisition, lang. universals, innateness, phonology/phonetics, etc. (Some semanticists, like Krifka's countryman Martin Haspelmath, have gone so far as to junk "markedness" entirely, but I do find it useful, if it's handled with care.) Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:46:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:46:13 -0800 Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore Message-ID: "One for the money..." and "Here's [actually, "This is"] the church . . ." were also familiar to me in '50s NYC. "Railroad Bill, Railroad Bill, Never worked and he never will." --from an Alabama folksong, "Railroad Bill." "Johnny get your gun..." So familiar that George M. Cohan quoted it in the verse to "Over There" (1917) : "Johnny get your gun, get your gun, get your gun, / Take it on the run, on the run, on the run...." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest Folklore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 5, 2005, at 10:03 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Children's folklore from Hoosier Folklore, Midwest > Folklore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Ben Zimmer writes: > > Washington Post, Nov 28, 1915, p. E20 > Adam and Eve and Pinch me all went out to swim -- Adam and Eve were > drowned -- Who was saved? > Nobody was likely to forget that one, after it had once been played on > him. > ----- > The latter appears in an article that I'm surprised Barry hasn't found > yet: "Charm of Children's Jingle Games is Mystery of Origin." > > > (I haven't looked through everything yet! I don't get paid! I do > parking tickets!--Barry Popik) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Some stuff from two magazines. > > > Midwest Folklore, winter 1951, vol. I, no. 4, pg. 244: > The V-sign, as later used in World-War days, then meant "let's go > swimming." Then "then" must be some unspecified pre-WWII date and not 1951? > > Pg. 249: > Adam and Eve and Pinch-me > Went down to the river to bathe; > Adam and Eve were drownded; > Who was saved? > > Pg. 254: > Here's the church > And there's the steeple; > Open it up > And see the people. > > I recall three of these: > > Engine, engine, number nine This is also the name of an R&B song by Wilson Pickett. I don't like the song, so I've never listened to the words. > , > Running on Chicago time. > > Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, > How many monkeys have we here? > > Nigger, nigger, never die, > Black face and shiny eye. > > Pg. 256: > Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief, > Doctor, lawyer, merchant, chief. > > Pg. 257: > What goes up must come down > Either on heads or on the ground. > Mary ate jam, Mary ate jelly, > Mary soon had a pain in the belly. > > Innocuous ditties: > > I know something, I won't tell: > Three little niggers in a peanut shell. ("Niggers?" Innocuous? Must be > 1951--ed.) > > Johnny get your gun > And sword and pistol; > Johnny get your gun > And fifteen cents. > > Pg. 259: > Corn-planting chant: > > One for the blackbird, > Two for the crow > Three for the cutworm, > And four to grow. > (_In part a riddle; it meant one kernel for each of the destinies > mentioned, that is, four in all, not the apparent ten, to a hill._) In St. Louis, I learned a variant of this as a chant to start a footrace: One for the money Two for the show Three to make ready And four to GO! > > Pg. 260: > Miscellaneous: > > Bad Bill from Bunker Hill, > Never worked [washed] and never will. In Texas, we said: Curly-head Bill from the western hill [no other lines] > > Sold agin and got the tin > And a little box to put it in. > > Good Night! Sleep tight! > Don't let the bedbugs bite. > > If you getto Heaven before I do, > Tell them that I'm comin' too. > > A peach-tree in the orchard grew, > 'Tis true! > Oh! listen to my tale of woe. > > When I was single, > My pockets did jingle, > And I wish I was single again. > > Oh! how the boarders yell, > Oh! how the beans do smell, > Oh how the boarders yell-- > Three times a day. > > I've been working on the levee > All the whole long day; > I'v been workin' on the levee > Just to pass the time away. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, June 1947, vol. VI, no. 2, pg. 73: > Contributed by Paul Weer, Indianapolis: > Cin, Cinn, > A needle and a pin, > A skinny and a fatty; > And that's the way to spell Cincinnati. > > Contributed by Paul Weer: > A bottle and a cork, > A jug and a fork, > And that's the way to spell New York. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, September 1948, vol. VII, no. 3, pg. 87: > 9. _Lemonade_ > Any number may play lemonade. Two captains are chosen, and each > chooses players, one at a time. The teams line up facing each other. > Each has a home base. One team takes "it." That team chooses something > to demonstrate, such as chopping wood or hoeing the garden. The "it" > team says, "Here we come," and they start walking toward the other > team. The other team starts walking to meet them. The (Pg. 88--ed.) > second team says, "Where from?" The first replies, "New York." The > second asks, "What's your trade?" the first answers, "Lemonade." The > second says, "Show us something if you are not afraid." (The reply may > vary. Sometimes it is, "Go to work.") The first team then begins to > demonstrate; the second team tries to guess what is being done. There > may be any number of guesses. If the second team guesses right, the > first team starts to run for the home base. If anyone is tagged by the > other team, he goes to the other side. It is then time for the second > team to select something to d! > emonstrate. > > > > Hoosier Folklore, March 1949, vol. VIII, no. 1, pg. 13: > If he is unable to find anyone, or wants to end the game, "It" calls: > > 1. Allee, allee in free. (Maine.) > 2. Allee, allee oxen, all in free. (Ind., 2) > Pg. 14: > 3. Oley, oley, ocean-free. (Ind.) > 4. Bee, bee, bumblebee, > All in free. (Ind.) > > Pg. 19: > F. _Scissors, Paper, Rock_ > At a given signal all players hold out their hands. A fist is a rock, > two fingers are scissors and the open hand represents paper. The > formula "Paper covers rock, scissors cut paper and rock dulls > scissors" is followed. All those who made the sign for paper can slap > those who made the sign for rock on the wrist, and so on. > (Ind., 1; Maine, 1.) In St. Louis, this name of this game is "John Cane Pone" (it sounds like that, in any case) and there was no penalty for losing other than "Gotcha!" > > G. _Simple Simon_ > All directions given by the leader which are prefaced with the > statement "Simple Simon says," must be followed by the players. Other > instructions must not be followed. Anyone making a mistake must pay a > forfeit. > (Ill., 1; Ind., 1; New York, 3.) > Reference: Gomme, II, 383. > > Pg. 21: > Did you ever see a lassie, a lassie, a lassie > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Pg. 22: > Do this way, and this way and that? > Did you ever see a lassie do this way and that? > Players try to guess what the leader in the center of the ring is > doing. > (Ill., 1; Mass. 1; New Jersey, 1.) > > _Lemonade_ > > A. Here we come. > B. Where from? > A. New York. > B. WHat's your trade? > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. > > Group B then tries to guess what Group A is going. Of the 8 variants, > two have New Orleans instead of New York (Ill., 1, Ind., 1). The last > line may be replaced by: > 1. How's it made? (Ind.) > 2. Give us some. (Ill.) > 3. Show us some of your hadiwork. (Ind.) > 4. Go to work and work all day. (Kentucky.) > The last line may not be given at all (Ind.) > > Two versions differ markedly from the rest: > > 1. A. Pennsylvania, > Bum, bum, bum. > Here I come. > B. What's your trade? > Pg. 23: > A. Lemonade. > B. Get to work. (Miss. and Tenn.) > 2. A. What's your state? > B. New York. > A. What's your trade? > B. Lemonade. (Ind.) > > References: Babcock; Gomme, I, 117; Heck, 30; Newell, 249; Randolph, > Vance and Nancy Clemons, "Ozark Mountain Party Games," JAFL, XLIX > (1936), 204; Cf. Gomme, II, 305. > > Pg. 31: > Here's the church > And here's the steeple. > Open the doors, > And there are the people. (Ind., 2.) > The fingers are interlaced and the hands twisted to produce the > figures. This is the version that I learned as a kid in Texas -Wilson Gray > References: Babcock; Brewster, 184; Newell, 138. > --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:51:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:51:17 -0800 Subject: Hootnanny (1918) Message-ID: Great quote, Doug, but in my survey of one million AEF sources I never found an ex. of this particular meaning. It's may well be local or ad hoc. Can anybody beat OED's 1917 "cootie" ("coot" would count), or cast light on its sugg. derivation from Malay "kutu"? JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Hootnanny (1918) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here "hootnanny" means "louse", apparently. Perhaps this is a specialization of the usual early sense "whatchamacallit"/"doohickey"/"thingamajig". ---------- _Evening State Journal and Lincoln Daily News_, Lincoln NE, 14 Feb. 1918: p. 2, col. 4: [by "Bugs" Baer, from New York] > ---------- -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 16:54:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:54:56 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) Message-ID: Does Major "trace it back to the 1940's," or just make an assertion ? JL Margaret Lee wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Margaret Lee Subject: Re: Do-Rag (1966) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is in the New York Times? I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. ''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, ''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . . but some young African-American men are masters at transforming the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. (JSTOR) Take Care of Business Marvin X The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, 1968), pp. 85-92 Pg. 85: WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a typical college student. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 6 17:20:38 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 12:20:38 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050306105109.53389.qmail@web41523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Traditionally, do-rags were worn only by black males to keep >processed hair in place/ to maintain the 'do. Clarence Major's Juba to >Jive traces it back to the 1940's. It's not just a "scrap of material" but >a scarf or handkerchief or stocking cap. I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar item worn on the head ... but maybe I misremember. Usually IIRC the do-rag was ostensibly for hairdo purposes, but if somebody was wearing one on the job or around the house it wouldn't be obvious whether it was for that or for sweat control or what. I think a do-rag was still a do-rag if seen on a white man ca. 1960, but IIRC it wasn't often seen on a white man in my environment. I don't have any definite knowledge about the etymology; "[hair]do" seems likely enough unless there's contradictory evidence. -- Doug Wilson From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 6 18:08:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:08:05 -0800 Subject: GENERICIZE and COMMONIZE Message-ID: there are evident problems with using the technical term (in several fields) "generic" for various distinct, though possibly related, concepts. one of these is the common noun derived historically from a proper name, a process for which we already have a (to my mind) pretty good technical term, namely "commonization". see the OED online entry for the verb "commonize": ----- 3. U.S. To convert (a proper name) into a common noun (verb, adjective, etc.); to derive (a common noun, etc.) from a proper name. Also intr. for pass. 1974 Amer. Speech 1971 XLVI. 122 From its use as a proper place name, the Watergate quickly became a proper name for an improper event. There are signs..that it is commonizing... ?Equally cynical and deceitful are the corporate Watergates.? 1979 Amer. Speech 1976 LI. 148 Well-known examples of trade names that have been commonized are aspirin, cellophane,..nylon, thermos, and zipper. 1982 Comments on Etym. XII. V. & VI. 6 Yiddish yente is a female given name as well as a common noun with several pejorative meanings... Only yente (not yentl or yentlin) has been commonized. ----- is there some objection to this terminology in linguistics (as opposed to the law)? linguistic change being what it is, the first step in commonization will be coexistence of the original proper name with its commonized variant -- one type of autohyponymy. this state can endure for some time. or the proper name can fall into disuse, as with "zipper" and its relatives. or the common noun can fall into disuse; do any young british speakers hoover rugs? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 18:27:54 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:27:54 EST Subject: sweatina Message-ID: My memory is that there was an early 20th Century athletes foot remedy called Sweatina (I also believe that it is long forgotten). I was interested to find the following on the internet, where "sweatina" seems to mean 'excessively sweating'. I'm wondering if this is a nonce usage--something that simply indicates the linguistic creativity the lyricist--or if this is a slang term anywhere in the English-speaking world. Posted?-?29 Sep 2004?:? 2:29:36 PM ? ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TLC Song Lyrics Say what say what (uh uh) 2003 Uh It donat get better then this (what) Here I come Here I come Here I come (T - Boz) Here I come A - T - L Iam an Atlanta girl (woo) Iave been born and raised To come and rock ya world I donat wanna hurt nobody (nobody) I just came to move your bodies T - Time to get the place wide up L - Rest well until we all meet up C - Come on and get the speakers boomin' Stop what youare doin' 'Cause weare about to ruin (come on) Chorus: Uh oh uh oh Move to the right now (uh oh uh oh) Move to the left now (uh oh uh oh) Stand real still now (uh oh uh oh) Now break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Move to the right now (uh oh uh oh) Move to the left now (uh oh uh oh) Stand real still now (uh oh uh oh) Now break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down (uh oh uh oh) Break it down Ohhh dirty Dirty dirty Where the South is I been waitin' on Tim to bring the beat in (uh huh) TLC the club's shakin' Bounce to the ounce Like a lot of baby makin' A - Already sweatin' from the music T - Too many drinks don't abuse it L - Let the folks outside in Come on on (come on) Chorus Yo Missy TLC is forever (yeah) So when you come up in this club here (what) Get your back up off the wall Yo Missy (yeah) Left Eye would want us to break it down Break it Break it down like this (like this, like this) Say what Come on now Bridge: If you're dancin' And you're sweatina (yeah) Drippin' wet from your neck to your chest is (aahh) Cause weare pumpin' We keep it jumpin' (whatad ya say) TLC is bringin' heat you gotta love this (bring the beat now) If you're dancin' And you're sweatina (ahhh girl) Drippin' wet from your neck to your chest is (oohh) Cause weare pumpin' We keep it jumpin' (ahh) TLC is bringin' heat you gotta love this http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7026&whichpage=3 From RonButters at AOL.COM Sun Mar 6 18:36:47 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 13:36:47 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Dictionaries=20Onli?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ne?= Message-ID: Oh, my! I wrote that too early in the morning, I guess. Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about the OED!!!! Here is what I meant to say: But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate in that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. In a message dated 3/6/05 10:51:11 AM, paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Ron recommends OAD online. What's the URL? > > Paul > ________________________ > Paul Frank > Chinese-English translator > paulfrank at post.harvard.edu > http://languagejottings.blogspot.com > From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 6 19:16:13 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:16:13 -0500 Subject: Dictionaries Online In-Reply-To: <20050306183652.97364A11C@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > Oh, my! I wrote that too early in the morning, I guess. Sorry for the > confusion. I was talking about the OED!!!! > > Here is what I meant to say: > > But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate > in > that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd > be > willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged > dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been > anything like it in the history of dictionary making. Thanks Ron! I have a three-year-old CD-ROM version of the OED. I wonder if the online version is that much better. I'm a measly freelance translator with no institutional afiliation, so I'd have to fork out quite a bit for the OED online. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 6 20:02:02 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:02:02 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" Message-ID: I wrote Professor Kellaris to ask if he really invented "earworm." He replied as follows: <> I then asked if I could forward his response to ASD-L, and he replied: <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:23 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Earworm" Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? By RACHEL KIPP, AP ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm slinks its way into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, but no cure. ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' jingle are two songs that are tough to shake. ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get stuck in people's heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from people all over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sun Mar 6 21:07:23 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:07:23 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" & singular y'all Message-ID: That's a singular y'all, ain't it? David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Sunday, March 06, 2005 at 3:02 PM -0500 wrote: > >ADS? Yessuh, y'aw be ve'y weh'come ter share mah response wif d'listserv. >(Let me know if you'd like an audio clip of me reading that sentence. I >spent my youth in Georgia. Hence I am bi-lingual...) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 6 21:59:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 16:59:42 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACC10@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Ah, my error. I should obviously have written not "gets (or at least demands) credit" but "has been credited in print" or something along that more mediated line. And as is often the case, it's the attributor of credit who's to blame, not the attributee. L At 3:02 PM -0500 3/6/05, Baker, John wrote: > I wrote Professor Kellaris to ask if he really invented >"earworm." He replied as follows: > > >< > >The answer to your question is an unambiguous "no." Despite the an article >in the NY Times that says the term was "coined by" me, I did not invent (nor >have I ever claimed to invent) the term. Unfortunately, many media sources >picked up the NYT article and reprinted it. > >"Earworms" is a common expression in German. I merely translated (or rather >transliterated) it into English. I take no credit for this, although I will >accept credit for "popularizing" the term though my widely-publicized >research. Thanks for asking! It allows me to set the record straight. > >FYI, after the NYT article, I heard from dozens of irrate German-speaking >people who told me that I did not invent the term. I took the time to >answer each one individually to set the record straight. > >- James>> > > > I then asked if I could forward his response to ASD-L, and he replied: > > >< >ADS? Yessuh, y'aw be ve'y weh'come ter share mah response wif d'listserv. >(Let me know if you'd like an audio clip of me reading that sentence. I >spent my youth in Georgia. Hence I am bi-lingual...) > >-James>> > > >John Baker > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:23 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "Earworm" > > >Ah, but you're all forgetting Prof. James Kellaris of the University >of Cincinnati, who gets (or at least demands) credit for >single-handedly inventing the word in 2000, only 13 years >post-Rheingold, as also discussed extensively on the list: > >What's With That Song Stuck in Your Head? > >By RACHEL KIPP, AP > >ALBANY, N.Y. (Oct. 20 [2003]) - Unexpected and insidious, the earworm >slinks its way >into the brain and refuses to leave. Symptoms vary, although high levels of >annoyance and frustration are common. There are numerous potential treatments, >but no cure. > ''The Lion Sleeps Tonight,'' and Chili's ''baby back ribs'' >jingle are two >songs that are tough to shake. > ''Earworm'' is the term coined by University of Cincinnati marketing >professor James Kellaris for the usually unwelcome songs that get >stuck in people's >heads. Since beginning his research in 2000, Kellaris has heard from >people all >over the world requesting help, sharing anecdotes and offering solutions... From dave at WILTON.NET Sun Mar 6 22:03:17 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:03:17 -0800 Subject: Spam (1987) In-Reply-To: <12c.58fd4fb7.2f5ca7bf@aol.com> Message-ID: A couple of early Usenet sightings of "spam" to mean commercial content (the OED has 1993): Usenet, comp.sys.amiga, Binddrivers vs Mount, 30 Nov 1987: "Spam Content: very little" The usenet posting contains no commercial content, but simply asks some technical questions. Usenet, comp.sys.amiga, A2000 serial port != A1000 (ackkkk!), 22 Oct 1987: "This article contains a *little* bit of Spam. :-)" The usenet posting isn't a straight commercial ad, but does plug Amiga at the expense of Commodore. One of the replies to this last contains the exclamation, "Dirty Vikings!", a reference to the Python skit. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 6 23:10:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:10:27 -0600 Subject: Dictionaries Online Message-ID: Residents of Alabama, with a local library card, get access to the Alabama Virtual Library which recently added the OED online. You can get a nonresident borrower's card from the Huntsville Public Library for $15/yr; I don't know if that is sufficient to get access to the AVL databases. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of RonButters at AOL.COM Sent: Sun 3/6/2005 12:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Dictionaries Online But M-W unabridged online is nothing like the OED online. I am fortunate in that I can get OED online through Duke University, but if I couldn't, I'd be willing to pay an awful lot for it. The OED online takes unabridged dictionaries to a totally new level of usability. There has never been anything like it in the history of dictionary making. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 6 23:15:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 15:15:39 -0800 Subject: dialects in the movies Message-ID: In "Dead Again," Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson switch back and forth from their normal English accents to amazingly persuasive American ones. Truly instructive. Wish I'd thought of it sooner. JL PS: For some reason, the first draft of this went to Dave Wilton. Sorry, Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 01:24:13 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:24:13 EST Subject: "Like water for chocolate" (Mexican proverb) (1935) Message-ID: (GOOGLE GROUPS) 2001newsgroupie Sep 22 2001, 3:30 pm Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films From: "2001newsgroupie" <2001newsgroupi... at SPAMhome Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:30:32 GMT Local: Sat, Sep 22 2001 3:30 pm Subject: Like Water for Chocolate I recently saw this movie but I missed the significance of the title. I understand that it is a partial quote of a Mexican proverb. Does anybody happen to know the whole proverb? Thanks. ... ... I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this Mexican/chocolate proverb. It was the title of a 1993 movie. ... PURO MEXICANO \edited by J. Frank Dobie Austin Texas Folk-Lore Society Publications--Number XII 1935 Pf, 213: _Ranchero Sayings of the Border_, by Howard D, Wesley Some other expressions, for most of which there are English analogues, are _"Comiste gallo?"_ (Did you eat a fighting cock?) and _"como agua para chocolate"_ (like water for chocolate, which is hot). The first is a clever way of asking, "Are you angry?" and corresponds loosely to our saying, "He must have got up on the wrong side of the bed." The other expression is applied to one who is angry. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 01:27:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:27:40 -0500 Subject: "Like water for chocolate" (Mexican proverb) (1935) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:24 PM -0500 3/6/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >(GOOGLE GROUPS) > 2001newsgroupie Sep 22 2001, 3:30 pm > Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films From: "2001newsgroupie" ><2001newsgroupi... at SPAMhome Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 22:30:32 GMT >Local: Sat, Sep 22 >2001 3:30 pm Subject: Like Water for Chocolate > >I recently saw this movie but I missed the significance of the title. I >understand that it is a partial quote of a Mexican proverb. Does anybody >happen to know the whole proverb? Thanks. >... >... >I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this Mexican/chocolate proverb. It was > the title of a 1993 movie. And the movie was based on an eponymous novel by, if memory serves, Laura Esquivel. I don't recall the movie explaining the proverb, but I assume the book does. Larry >... >PURO MEXICANO >\edited by J. Frank Dobie >Austin >Texas Folk-Lore Society Publications--Number XII >1935 >Pf, 213: _Ranchero Sayings of the Border_, by Howard D, Wesley >Some other expressions, for most of which there are English analogues, are >_"Comiste gallo?"_ (Did you eat a fighting cock?) and _"como agua para >chocolate"_ (like water for chocolate, which is hot). The first is a >clever way of >asking, "Are you angry?" and corresponds loosely to our saying, "He must have >got up on the wrong side of the bed." The other expression is applied to one >who is angry. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 01:54:02 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:02 EST Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: GAMES AND SONGS OF AMERICAN CHILDREN by William Wells Newell New York: Harper & Brothers 1884 ... There's a lot here. DARE should have cited it for "potsie" (NYC game). Church/Steeple is here, as is Little Sally Waters. ... ... Pg. 70: _Little Sally Waters._ (...) In the north of England the heroine's name is _Sally Walker_. ... Pg. 102: _Trials, Trouble and Tribulation._ All participants are blindfolded, and joining hands, march forward, singing-- ... Here we go through the Jewish nation, Trials, troubles, and tribulation. ... The fun consists in bringing up against a door, or in causing a general downfall by tripping over some obstacle. ... Pg. 122: _Follow Your Leader._ ... Pg. 129: _The Farmer in the Dell._ ... Pg. 131: _Right Elbow In._ Put your right elbow in, Put your right elbow out, Shake yourselves a little, And turn yourselves about. (The test says this is "Ugly Mug" on Boston and "Linkumbooby" in England--ed.) ... Pg. 138: _The Church and the Steeple._ Here is the church, Here is the steeple, Here is the parson, And all the people. (The text says the Italian version is "This is the Inferno, and this the Paradiso"--ed.) ... Pg. 160: _I Spy._ ... Pg. 174: Tickle's, tickle's on the knee; If you laugh, you don't love me. --_Philadelphia._ ... Pg. 182: _Hockey._ This sport is also called _Shinny_. ... Pg. 184: _Base Ball._ The present scientific game, which we naturally do not intend to describe, was known in Massachusetts, twenty years ago, as the "New York game." ... Pg. 188: _Hop-Scotch._ In Italy the three last divisions are _Inferno_, _Purgatorio_, and _Paradiso_. In New York the last is called _Pot_, ... Pg. 202: Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, How many monkeys are there here? 1, 2, 3, you are he(she). ---_Massachusetts to Georgia_, ... School's up, school's down, School's all around the town. ... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, All goof children go to heaven. --_Massachusetts to Pennsylvania_. ,,, Monfay's child is fair of face (...)--_Georgia_. ... Pg. 203: Engine No. 9 Out goes she. --_Philadelphia_. ... From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 7 05:29:30 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:29:30 -0500 Subject: marginal hires Message-ID: Boston Globe article about the Larry Summers' use of the term "marginal hires" and what it means to most people: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/03/06/marginal_intentions/ Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 05:55:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:55:11 -0600 Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: When did this morph into "hokey pokey"? ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sun 3/6/2005 7:54 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) ... Pg. 131: _Right Elbow In._ Put your right elbow in, Put your right elbow out, Shake yourselves a little, And turn yourselves about. (The test says this is "Ugly Mug" on Boston and "Linkumbooby" in England--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 08:26:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:26:50 EST Subject: Dirty jokes, children's rhymes in Keystone Folklore Quarterly OT: Message-ID: OT: I was rushing a post to watch the Oprah Winfrey movie (THEIR EYES WERE WATCHING GOD) on Sunday. It wasn't very good...Sorry for the typos. DARE does have that 1884 "pot" cite under "pot' and not "potsy"...Also, DARE has a "lemonade" entry, but an 1899 citation under "New York" for "What's your trade?/Lemonade." ... ... I've been going through the Keystone Folklore Quarterly. There's a lot of stuff. ... ... Summer 1970, Keystone Folklore Quarterly, vol. XV, mp. 2, "One-Liners as a Folklore Genre" by Timothy Curry. ... Pg. 88: 1. It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. 2. It's colder than the windy side of a witch's tit. 3. It's hotter than a fresh-screwed ewe with all her wool on. Pg. 89: 4. There's tears in my eyes as big as horse turds. 5. ...horny as a three-peckered gopher. 6. ...you'd be useless as tits on a bull for Laurie. 7. Hinkle, you're so dumb you couldn't pour piss out of a boot without instructions on the hell. (See ADS-L archives for this--ed.) 8. ...you're so blind you couldn't find your own asshole with both hands and three people helping you. 9. Hinkle, you wouldn't know your ass from a hole in the ground. 10. If my dog had a face like yours, I'd shave its ass and teach it to walk backward. (...) It looks like someone put out the fire on your face with an icepick. Pg. 90: 11. ...your breath smells like something crawled up your ass and died there. 12. ...SBD (silent but deadly)...SOE (suffocate or evacuate). 13. ...you don't have enough brains to fit in your left nut before puberty. 14. ...sis on you pister, you're not so mucking fuch. 15. ...ain't that a bite in the balls. 16. ...there's a bun in the oven. 17. ...hang 'em on your nose and snap at 'em. ... Pg. 91: 18. His definition is "that's as gross as a hicky on a hemorrhoid." (Google for "hickey on a hemorrhoid"--ed.) ... Pg. 93: _Dirty Jokes At The Academy And Angela Morrison_ by Thomas Peck ... Pg. 96: "When does a cub-scout become a boy-scout?" Ans.--"When he eats his first brownie." ... Pg. 96: In Days of old when knights were bold And jocks were not invented, They tied a sock around their cock Thus ruptures were prevented. ... Pg. 98: "Confucious say, Birgin like balloon--one prick all gone." "Confucious say, Kotex not best thing on earth, but next to it." ... Pg. 100: In days of old when knights were bold and toilets weren't invented They laid their loads beside the road and walked away contented. ... ... Summer 1966, Keystone Folklore Quarterly, "Jump-Rope Rhymes: Suggestions for Classification and Study" by Bruce R. Buckley Pg. 99: "Have you heard the latest skip-rope rhyme?" "No, what is it?" "Oh well--skip it!" ... Fall 1966, Keystone Folklore Quarterly,, vol XI,, no. 3, "An Annotated Collection of Children's Lore: Part Three of Oral Tradition Among Children in Central New York State," by David J. Winslow. Pg. 151: BABY ROPE, ROCK THE CRADLE, OR BLUE BELLS Pg. 152: OVERS HOT OR THE HOTS PEPPER: Rope is turned as gast as possible. EVER-ENDER NEVER-ENDER FRONT DOORS BACK DOORS DOUBLE ROPE OR DOUBLES CHASE THE FOX CALLING IN BEGGING BAKING BREAD: A player runs in with a stone in his hand, and while jumping places it on the ground, straightens up, picks up the stone again, and runs out. TWIRLS OUT Pg. 153: SALT, VINEGAR, MUSTARD, PEPPER: Often used as a rhyme or at the end of a rhyme, these four words mean sucessively faster speeds of jumping. WINDING THE CLOCK THE SWAY TRIO HIGH WATER ... Pg. 162: Tattle tale, tattle tale, Stick your head in a garbage pail! ... Pg. 163: Kindergarten baby, Stick your head in gravy! ... Pg. 164: Don't say it, Your mother'll faint, Your father'll fall In a bucket of paint. ... Pg. 165: I see London, I see France, I see Kevin's underpants! ... Missed me! Now you've got to Kiss me! ... Trick or treat? Smell my feet. Give me something Good to eat. ... Teacher, teacher, In number nine, Stuck here head In a bottle of wine. Pg. 166: No more pencils, no more books, No more teacher's dirty looks! ... Tonight, tonight, the pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Smash the windows, break the chairs, Trip the teacher on the stairs. ... _EPITHETS_ Blabbermouth, loudmouth, or big mouth--Someone who talks a lot. ... Fatso--a fat person. ... Grapefruit mouth--someone who talks a lot. ... Yellow-bellied chicken--a coward; fattie--a fat person, and smartie--someone who thinks he is smart. ... Gabber-trap--someone who talks a lot. ... Chicken or scaredy-cat--someone who is a coward; big bruiser or tubby--a fat person. Pg. 167: Pud, big bruiser, or pugsley--a fat person; Scaredy-cat, or yellow--a coward. ... Black eggs--a person who is just dirty; skinny bones--a thin person, an fatty--a fat person. ... Nanny goat--a fat person' match stick--a thin person. ... Nut--a crazy person; fatty--a fat person, and chicken--a coward. ... Chicken-shit--a coward. ... Creep-ass--someone you don't like. ... Garbage-mouth liar--someone who lies about you. ... Pg. 168: _RIDDLES_ What falls down but never gets hurt?--Rain. What can you give away and still keep?--Your word. What goes uphill and downhill but never moves?--A road. What has a mouth but never eats?--A river. What has eyes but cannot see?--A potato. What has four legs but only one foot?--A bed. What has ear but cannot hear?--Corn. What has legs but cannot walk?--Table. What has arms and legs but no head?--Armchair. What is black and white and red all over?--Newspaper. What is very light but you can't hold it for long?--Your breath. What holds a lot of water but has a lot of holes in it?--A sponge. ... Pg. 170; What's black and white with a cherry on top?--A police car. Pg. 172: What starts with F and ends with CK?--Firetruck. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 09:50:07 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 04:50:07 EST Subject: Boston Globe is here! Message-ID: The Boston Globe is here! 1972-1900 appears to now be available. ... ... (DOUGHNUT HOLE) _Letter to the Editor 1 -- No Title; Those Unlucky Gloves. What Ails the Cat An Elementary Lesson Only. Let This Dron Now, Please. Asks One of "Sagmore, Jr." Severak Answers. Is it Right? Commends the English. For What He Was and All He Dared. Labor Questions. An Appeal to "W." Some One Said Magnesia Would. Skating Backwards. That Bible Class. What Are These Screens? How Many Senses Are There, "Carl." Another Postal Record. Wants to Know Flow the Machine Works. Doughnuts Whole and Doughnut Hole. About that Simple Rule for the Diametor. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=563532072&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110186435&clientId=65882) Boston. Mar 18, 1886. p. 4 (1 page) : ... _MAKE GOOD DOUGHNUTS.; Anna Barrows Tells How This Can be Done. The Whole Art of Mixing. Shaping and Frying Satisfactorily Explained. Histort of the Evolution of Doughnuts Not Romantic, but Interesting. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=570077212&SrchMode=1&sid=37&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188353&clientId=65882) ANNA BARROWS. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Feb 18, 1894. p. 27 (1 page) ... ... (BEANTOWN) _BOSTON, 4; CHICAGO, 2.; But the Tronble is, New York Keeps Winning, Too. Manager Bancroft's Team of Grays Dust the Diamond with Detroit. Beantown Unions Too Much for the Porkopolitan Unions. New Yorks, 4; Buffalos, O. Providences, 25; Detroits, 3. Clevelands, 7; Philadelphias, 5. Boston Unions, ... Yales, 6, Darmouths,2. Seacons, 10, Harvards, 7. Other Games. New York Still in the Lead. Cames Today. Three Strikes. FIFTH REGIMENT DRILL Colonel Bancroft's Command In Mechanic's Hall and on the Common. SOMERVILLE. Boston Scientific Society. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=547506842&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110186858&clientId=65882) Boston. May 15, 1884. p. 8 (1 page) ... ... (BEAN TOWN) _THE TEMPERANCE MEETING.; A Large Gathering of Inebriate Men--Scriptural Reading and Address by Mr. Moody --The Testimony of Reformed Men. Requests for Prayer. [...] MY FREE UPON A ROCK." The Voluntary Testimony. AN INTERESTING LETTER. HE OPENED A TEMPERANCE [...]., UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF LIQUOR, Mr. Moody's Prayer. The Afternoon Meeting. THE EVENING SERVICE An Immense Gathering at the Tabernacle-- Mr. Moody Preaches an Effective Sermon on "The Heating of Naaman." Mr. Moody's Sermon on "Naaman." NAAMAN DIDN'T DESPISE THE MESSENGER, IT'S AGAINST MY REASON. YOU CAN SEE HIM AS HIS HEAD GOES DOWN Mr. Moody's Prayer. The "After Meetings" _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=541946042&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11101868 95&clientId=65882) Bost on. Mar 24, 1877. p. 2 (2 pages) ... ... (OLL KORRECT) _VERBAL FOUNDLINGS.; Paternity of an Odd Lot of Words and Sayings. Queer Incidents That Gave Them Tolerance in the English Language. Facts Regarding Common Phrases That None of the Dictionaries Tell. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568016452&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309 &VName=HNP&TS=1110187049&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 9, 1889. p. 21 (1 page) ... ... (HOT DOG) 1. _CASE DISMISSED.; Charge Against Sheehan Not Sustained. Order Received in Stastions With Great Joy. Commissioners Divided on the Matter. Whast Gen Masrtin Has to Say About Verdict. How Police and Public View the Entire Subject. GEN MARTIN'S OPINIONS. He Talks Freely in Regard to Case of Sergt Sheehan. WHAT OTHERS THINK. Different Opinions of Officers and Men Around Town. GREENTED WITH CHEERS. Officers of Division 4 Receive the Good News with Jov. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=570435502&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10 &VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Aug 8, 1894. p. 1 (2 pages) ... 2. _OUT INTO THE STREETS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=570039102&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1 110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1893. p. 6 (1 page) ... 3. _AMONG THE FIREMEN.; State Firemen's Association Will Meet at Gloucester, Oct. 11, 12 and 13-- Objections Made to the Date and Place of the League Meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=568756422&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=6588 2) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 11, 1893. p. 26 (1 page) ... 4. _COLLECTING BADGES.; Thousands of Wheelmen in Washington--Smooth Pavements Are Hard and They Are Having a Good Time. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=568382302&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) G S HOWARD. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1892. p. 2 (1 page) ... 5. _Showing How Children "Catch On."_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=563501152&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 27, 1887. p. 18 (1 page) ... 6. _TWELVE DOG TALES.; Attacked by Seven Savage Dogs. Senator Cameron's Dog a Nuisance. Little Johnny on Dogs. Astonishing the Dogs. Dogs as Watchmen. How to Deal With Dog Bites. A Dog's Services Officially Recognized. A Howling Dog Saves a Life. The Newspaper Dog. Two Hounds Kill and Eat a Horse. A Dog That Attempted Suicide. What a Dog's Tail is Good For. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=548209892&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. Feb 8, 1883. p. 3 (1 page) ... 7. _MEXICAN AFFAIRS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=536515472&SrchMode=1&sid=13&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187321&clie ntId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 16, 1872. p. 5 (1 page) ... ... (WINDY CITY) _LOST BY ERRORS.; Detroit Wins the Morning Game from Boston And Rain Stops the Slugging in the Afternoon. Anson's Windy City Players Win Twice, And Draw Away from the Gothamites. One for the Phillies and One for the Pittsburgs. Gaffney's Senators Celebrate by Defeating the Hoosiers. The Blues Play Two Games and Win One. RAIN STOPPED THE HITTING. The Bostons Bat Weldman as They Used To, But it Don't Count. Philadelphia, 9; Pittsburgs, 5. Pittsburgs, 8; Philadelphias, 4. Washingtons,6; Indianapolis,2. Chicagos, 5; New Yorks, 1. Chicagos, 4; New Yorks, 2. Boston Still Hangs to Second Place. THE BLUES DO SOME HITTING. And Defeat the Lynn Aggregation with Ease. Lynns,14; Blues,14. Manchesters, 12; Lowells,8. Manchesters, 8; Lowells, 7; Portlands,14; Salems,6. Lawrences; 31; Haverhills, 3. Portlands, 15; Salems, 11. The Lowells Take a Tumble. American Association Games. Games Today. Other Games. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=563910812&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187528&clientId=65882) Boston. Jul 5, 1887. p. 5 (1 page) ... ... (HARVARD BEETS) (Typo?) _YALE'S DAY.; Mott Haven Cup Her's by ... Points to... Harvard Men Sober and Disheartened. Crimson Not In Games at Any Stage. Lost Five Firsts Won Two Weeks Ago. Records Broken in Four Events on New York Field. The U. of P. Team Comes in Third With 11 Points. Princeton Fourth With One Less to Her Credit. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568733912&SrchMode=1&sid=26&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110187880&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. May 28, 1893. p. 1 (2 pages) ... ... (DUDE & DANDY) _A Plea for the So-Called Dude_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=548314092&SrchMode=1&sid=28&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10187981&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 10, 1883. p. 2 (1 page) ... (FUDGE + COLLEGE) _ANTI-GUSH SOCIETY.; Needed to Stop an Evil in Women's Colleges. Students Talk Divine Fudge, Perfe Dreams and Terribly Good Times. Their Conversation Embarrasses Their Visitors, Wearies Their Brothers. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=44&did=571632332&SrchMode=1&sid=43&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT= 309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188565&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jan 28, 1900. p. 33 (1 page) ... (DEACON PORTER'S HAT) No hits. ... (LOBSTER + NEWBURG) 1. _BOSTON COOKING SCHOOL.; The Year's Lessons Drawing to a Close. Some New Dishes Daintily Prepared and Approved. Swedish Timbals with Creamed Oysters--Rice Pudding with Rose Sauce. Lobster Newburg. Swedish Timbals. Creamed Oysters. Rice Padding. Rose Sauce. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=571370092&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&T S=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872. Apr 4, 1889. p. 4 (1 page) ... 2. _BEST HOME COOKING.; "Daily Hints" Are Popular With Women Readers. "Questions Asked and Answered" Prove a Hit in the Recipe Department. "True and Tried" Still Coming in From Clever Women of New England. Read Carefully. Clam Chowder for pictures First-Class Turkey Dressing. Wanted--Bread and Biscuit. Hominy. Cranberry Jelly Old-Fashioned Hard Gingerbread. Mustard Once More. Lobster a la Newburg Fruit Cake. Currant Cake. Cranberry Jelly Again. Orange Cake. Another Pot Roast. Dressing for Chicken Salad. Grandma's Election Cake. Cabbage Salad Cheap Cake. Salad Dressing. Mrs Hawkes' Recipes Wanted. Pumpkin Pie Information. Apple Pie Wanted. Brown Bread Pudding. Cocoanut Custard Angel Cake. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=570562212&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65 882) Boston. Nov 24, 1894. p. 8 (1 page) ... 3. _HOUSEKEEPERS' COLUMN.; True and Tried Recipes From Experienced Cooks. Rules That Have Been Used for Years by the Women of New England. Home-Made Gifts, Crocheting, Knitting and Fancy Work in Variety. Daily Hints to Housekeepers. LOBSTER A LA NEWBURG. QUIRLED POTATOES. Read Carefully. Home-Made Sausage. Carrie's Doughnuts. Stuffed Cucumbers. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=538094372&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309& VName=HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. May 3, 1897. p. 8 (1 page) ... 4. _HOUSEKEEPERS' COLUMN.; True and Tried Recipes From Experienced Cooks. Rules That Have Been Used for Years by the Women of New England. Home-Made Gifts, Crocheting, Knitting and Fancy Work in Variety. DAILY HINTS TO HOUSE- KEEPERS. SMOTHERED CHICKEN. Read Carefully. Bavarian Chocolate Cream. Boston Baked Beans. Bread Cakes. Lobster a la Newburg. FANCY WORK. Mat for a Small Table. Embroidery Lace Design. PLANTS AND FLOWERS. How to Plant Roses. The Chinese Primrose. GENERAL CORRESPONDENCE. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=570780662&SrchMode=1&sid=47&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName =HNP&TS=1110188888&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Mar 31, 1900. p. 8 (1 page) ... (All right! Time for bed!) From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 11:48:39 2005 From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 03:48:39 -0800 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar item worn on the head ... --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 12:59:40 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:59:40 -0500 Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request In-Reply-To: <006301c49dd8$40400250$0c21a618@sam> Message-ID: Two requests for anyone who has access to the Boston Globe and Atlanta Constitution on ProQuest Historical Newspapers: What is the earliest occurrence of "real McCoy" in those papers? "real Mackay"? "real Sandy Mackay"? What is the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in those papers? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 13:29:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:29:43 -0500 Subject: Games and Songs of American Children (1884) Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 20:54:02 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >GAMES AND SONGS OF AMERICAN CHILDREN >by William Wells Newell >New York: Harper & Brothers >1884 > ... >There's a lot here. DARE should have cited it for "potsie" (NYC game). >Church/Steeple is here, as is Little Sally Waters. [...] >Pg. 138: _The Church and the Steeple._ >Here is the church, >Here is the steeple, >Here is the parson, >And all the people. >(The text says the Italian version is "This is the Inferno, and this the >Paradiso"--ed.) ----- _Atlanta Constitution_, Feb 15, 1880, p. 2 Baby Dimple's House Block upon block, block upon block; Wait, baby, wait till the time to knock; Hush, Baby Dimple, still as a mouse! This is the way to build a house. What shall it be -- a church so high With a steeple up to the very sky? First we will build a good thick wall-- Still, baby, still! or you'll spoil it all; Block upon block, till all is complete; That is the way to build, my sweet! Here is the door, and here is the steeple, Within are the preacher and all the people. Now, baby, now for the final shock! Ah that was only a tiny knock; Once again, Dimple--one, two, three! Over it goes, in your merry glee! And that is the end of the church and the steeple; But where are the preacher and all the people? --Mabel C. Dowd in The Nursery ----- --Ben Zimmer From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA Mon Mar 7 13:59:12 2005 From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:59:12 -0500 Subject: angle of the eye Message-ID: This seems common in literature about glaucoma - 4,250 hits in Google. It refers to the filtration or drainage angle where the cornea attaches to the iris. OED (2002) and the other dictionaries I checked don't have an entry for the phrase, nor is it defined under "angle." A full-text search shows nine citations. See esp. the 1911 cite under "iridial," adj. T. M. Paikeday www.paikeday.net From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 14:24:40 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:24:40 -0500 Subject: "Earworm" In-Reply-To: <20050304050102.97B08B2509@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter sez--- >>> One can be "haunted" in various ways. The calque seems to run to the horrific end of the spectrum; "Jingle Bell Rock" is a good example for me. <<< Rude Awakening Copyright Mark A. Mandel 2004 To the tune of Jingle Bells (starting with the verse: "Dashing through the snow") My new cell phone plays A choice of wake-up song. the right start to my days is going very wrong I chose a pretty theme But now, alas, I find That blasted repetitious meme Has occupied my mind. (CHO:) Pachelbel, Pachelbel, Filling up my brain. The thunder of the Canon Is driving me insane. (2x) A charming piece composed by Johannn Pachelbel. What idiot supposed this phone could play it well? Unmodulated tinkling Of just eight bars' extent (spoken:) Repeat! Of just eight bars' extent (spoken:) Repeat! Of just eight bars'-- (spoken:) NO!... A mind-block better than the best that Bester could invent! (CHO) === ["But it's not to the tune of Pachelbel's Canon!" "That's the idea. I was trying to get _away_ from it!"] mark by hand From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 7 14:30:32 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:30:32 -0500 Subject: "snow day" superstitions Message-ID: From: "Sally O. Donlon" : Schools down on the Gulf Coast, at least in the districts near my : home, have "Blow Days," which are days that may be lost to hurricanes. The Orange County (Florida) School District uses the much-less evocative "Bad Weather Day" for the one[1] such day one the calendar (the day before Thanksgiving, since bad weather seems to come earlier here than further north). I've never heard any other terms for it here, except for the shortened form "weather day". Seminole County, just to the north, calls it a "Make-Up Day" on their calendar--don't know if it gets called something else in casual speech. [1] Yeah, we needed a few more this past year. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 7 14:30:34 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:30:34 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter : As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" : (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, : "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to : refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the : drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and : less common on campus. I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not something that's really in active use *now*. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 15:03:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:03:33 -0500 Subject: deminibus Message-ID: CQ TODAY March 5, 2005 ? 1:13 a.m. Cochran Coins New Term for Multiple-Bill Spending Packages By Jonathan Allen, CQ Staff In typically understated fashion, Senate Appropriations Chairman Thad Cochran, R-Miss., has coined a new term in the lexicon of spending. After winning his colleagues? support for a plan to restructure his committee, Cochran said the days of the appropriations omnibus ? a measure combining several spending bills ? are finished. ?We?re not going to have any,? Cochran declared softly. But, questioned about the possibility of a ?minibus,? a diminutive that has come to describe an omnibus bearing just a few bills, Cochran quickly countered with a new construction, presumably meaning a vehicle with a very small number of bills. He called it ?deminibus.? Source: CQ Today Round-the-clock coverage of news from Capitol Hill. ? 2005 Congressional Quarterly Inc. All Rights Reserved From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 15:11:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 07:11:16 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland Message-ID: I can only say that "dope" appears to be a leading term for marijuana among my undergraduate students, though "hootch" may be more chill. Any discord created by the term as applied to Coca-Cola should apply even if "dope" is merely in one's passive vocabulary. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Lighter : As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" : (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, : "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to : refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the : drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and : less common on campus. I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not something that's really in active use *now*. David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 15:27:12 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:27:12 -0600 Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request Message-ID: "public be damned" SPIES ON THE STAND. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001); Aug 10, 1886; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Atlanta Constitution (1868 - 1925) pg. 5 / col 3 "As an illustration of the indifference of capitalists to the suffering of the poor, the witness referred to the expression of Vanderbilt: "The public be damned." " BIRTH AND BULLION. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960); Dec 16, 1889; ProQuest Historical Newspapers Boston Globe pg. 4/1 "It is this which constitutes the chief offence of Vanderbilt's "public be damned" sentiment, and of Mr. Blaine's assertion that trusts are purely "private affairs." " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:00 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Bos. Globe, Atl. Constitution Request > > > Two requests for anyone who has access to the Boston Globe > and Atlanta Constitution on ProQuest Historical Newspapers: > > What is the earliest occurrence of "real McCoy" in those > papers? "real Mackay"? "real Sandy Mackay"? > > What is the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in > those papers? > > Fred Shapiro > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 15:32:23 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:32:23 -0600 Subject: Boston Globe is here! Message-ID: Looks like the Boston Globe coverage is currently from 1872 to 1900. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 15:42:25 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:42:25 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <20050307114839.53309.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Margaret Lee wrote: > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I > don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap > (although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been > called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a > bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar > item worn on the head ... > What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? > A conventional stocking or watch cap is much heavier-weight, and must be knit. Here's the first hit from Google Images . To my mind, the prototypical do-rag is what football players wear under their helmets. These seem to be fairly thin cloth, and could be woven rather than knit. -- Alice Faber From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 15:48:05 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 10:48:05 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20COKE=20in=20the=20M?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20aryland?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/7/05 10:11:33 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > I can only say that "dope" appears to be a leading term for marijuana among > my undergraduate students, though "hootch" may be more chill. > > Any discord created by the term as applied to Coca-Cola should apply even if > "dope" is merely in one's passive vocabulary. > > JL > I tend to agree with JL, although I must confess that this is not something that I discuss with my students. I'll pass this message on to Connie Eble, who regularly polls her students about their terms for all sorts of things. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Mon Mar 7 16:38:13 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:38:13 -0500 Subject: More on singular y'all Message-ID: In an online forum, from a native Nashvillite, now living in New England: "Where I grew up y'all used to only one person hinted at their size - think rude here. Love the southern way of insulting a person right to their face and pretending they hadn't said a thing." -- Alice Faber From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 16:44:19 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:44:19 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503070501.AAA23943@babel.ling.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different vowels in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it doesn't fit comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to call it? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 17:31:42 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:31:42 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: <422C7661.1080605@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 10:42 AM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Margaret Lee wrote: >> >>"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >>I can remember this expression only back to 1960 or 1961 (before that I >>don't remember). As I recall it, the conventional stocking cap or watch cap >>(although maybe sometimes worn for the same purpose) wouldn't have been >>called a do-rag usually where I came from, and "do-rag" referred to a >>bandanna or similar piece of cloth or else to a nylon stocking or similar >>item worn on the head ... > > > > What's the difference between the "conventional stocking cap or watch >cap" (and what is a watch cap?) and the nylon stocking worn on the head? > > > >A conventional stocking or watch cap is much heavier-weight, and must be >knit. Here's the first hit from Google Images >. > >To my mind, the prototypical do-rag is what football players wear under >their helmets. These seem to be fairly thin cloth, and could be woven >rather than knit. > >-- > >Alice Faber Ah, a toboggan! From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 17:42:45 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 12:42:45 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <20050307050107.3B7B3B25AF@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer quotes: >>>>> http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B **iff everything that falls under B also falls under A**. In this case, B is called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and 'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] <<<<< (1) That part is backward: it should be "iff everything that falls under **A** also falls under **B**". (2) And we also need the requirement that not everything that falls under B falls under A, because in that case they are synonyms. E.g., (1) all dogs (A) are mammals (B), but not all mammals are dogs, so "dog" is a hyponym of "mammal". -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] "The last word" on ADS-L is like "the last bug" in programming. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Mar 7 18:32:35 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 13:32:35 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <1110213859.422c84e37ce5f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / >sing their music if they are musicians. > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different >vowels >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >doesn't fit >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to >call >it? > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~ The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I think that usage was fairly widespread. A. Murie From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Mar 7 19:11:19 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:11:19 EST Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 Message-ID: Connie Eble reports: Dear Ron, ?? I'll ask my students.? But my feeling is that dope is used today as much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple of years. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? Connie From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Mar 7 19:04:35 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:04:35 -0500 Subject: jagon watch In-Reply-To: <200503070844212.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Microneighborhoods Manhattan real estate term for "zones of hipness" engineered by specialty retailers to attract a specific demographic - artists, foodies, sexaholics, fashionistas. Bluefields Construction sites built on land reclaimed from the ocean. Visual Motor Ecstasy Coined by pediatrician Mel Levine to describe a range of intensely stimulating pursuits (most notably first-person shooter videogames) that involve rapid movement and tend to be nonverbal and devoid of intellectual enrichment. Placeshifting Watching or listening to recorded media on any network-connected device - not just the laptop or TiVo box that originally received it. The next logical step beyond timeshifting. - Gareth Branwyn (jargon at wiredmag.com) karen <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Mon Mar 7 20:33:44 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:33:44 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503071030945.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I learned this word when in 1961. when I first learned to bay the baritone ukelele and was asked to participate in hootenany's with the rest of the students. We met at someone's home about once a month for a singalong. We did learn folksongs, but you could have sung anything. The point to perform and to sing together. fyi - classmate Joel Bernstein http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ringleaders/Home_ringleaders.html best, Karen Ellis At 01:32 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Hootenanny >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from > the New > >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz > pianist, a > >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual > >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 > >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / > >sing their music if they are musicians. > > > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' > >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful > >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different > >vowels > >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for > >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it > >doesn't fit > >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to > >call > >it? > > > >Damien Hall > >University of Pennsylvania >~~~~~~~~ >The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >think that usage was fairly widespread. >A. Murie <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> Guavaberry Books http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/ Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I. Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers - 2x Grammy Winners The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html Hot List of Schools Online Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 7 21:15:45 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 16:15:45 -0500 Subject: subdaily Message-ID: "These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly free, many amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling inboxes on a subdaily basis." -- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by David Streitfeld Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident meaning is 'more frequent than daily', and Google has something like 280 hits which, at a quick glance, are all technical from various scientific disciplines (biology, astronomy...) and have this meaning. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 7 21:42:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:42:37 -0600 Subject: subdaily Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark A. Mandel > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:16 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: subdaily > > "These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly > free, many amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling > inboxes on a subdaily basis." > -- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by > David Streitfeld > > Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident > meaning is 'more frequent than daily', and Google has > something like 280 hits which, at a quick glance, are all > technical from various scientific disciplines (biology, > astronomy...) and have this meaning. > Title: Paleontological Evidence on the Earth's Rotational History Since Early Precambrian Authors: Pannella, G. Journal: Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol. 16 (1972), p.212 "Complacent increments reflect both physiological and astronomical rhythms and are highly complex with many subdaily lines." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:01:37 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:01:37 -0500 Subject: Vanderbilt: "The public be damned" (1882) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro asked about the earliest occurrence of "the public be damned" in the Boston Globe and Atlanta Constitution, and Bill Mullins supplied cites from 1886 and 1889, attributed to William Vanderbilt. The Vanderbilt quote first circulated in October 1882, though the word "damned" was often excised. Here is the original New York Times report of Vanderbilt's comments to a correspondent in Chicago: ----- New York Times, Oct 9, 1882, p. 1 Chicago, Oct. 8 -- Mr. William H. Vanderbilt and party arrived in Chicago this afternoon direct from New-York. To a reporter Mr. Vanderbilt said: [...] "Does your limited express pay?" "No; not a bit of it. We only run it because we are forced to do so by the action of the Pennsylvania Road. It doesn't pay expenses. We would abandon it if it was not four our competitor keeping its train on." "But don't you run it for the public benefit?" "The public be -----. What does the public care for the railroads except to get as much out of them for as small a consideration as possible. I don't take any stock in this silly nonsense about working for anybody's good, but our own because we are not. When we make a move we do it because it is our interest to do so, no because we expect to do somebody else some good. Of course we like to do everything possible for the benefit of humanity in general, but when we do we first see that we are benefiting ourselves. Railroads are not run on sentiment, but on business principles and to pay, and I don't mean to be egotistic when I say that the roads which I have had anything to do with have generally paid pretty well." ----- Four days later, the Times ran a letter from Vanderbilt disowning the published comments, followed by a note from the correspondent standing by the article: ----- New York Times, Oct 13, 1882, p. 5 To the Editor of the New-York Times: My attention has been called to an interview said to have been had with me at Chicago, and published in The New-York Times and other Eastern papers of Oct. 9. I conversed with several reporters at Chicago on Sunday last, and, while I am not able now to give from memory all the particulars, I know that the published statement differs materially from what I said. I do not, and never have, entertained any such opinions as are attributed to me. I did not use the language reported as to the public, the Anti-Monopoly politicians, or the Nickle Plated Road, and both my words and ideas are misreported and misrepresented in the report. I have frequently been interviewed by the New-York press, and every one knows I never use language or expressions as attributed to me by the reporter. --William H. Vanderbilt. Denver, Col., Thursday, Oct. 12, 1882. [Note. -- Our Chicago correspondent who was requested to meet the issue of fact raised by Mr. Vanderbilt, does so as follows:] [...] The two reporters who met Mr. Vanderbilt were John D. Sherman of the Tribune, and Clarence P. Dresser of the Metropolitan Press Bureau. These gentlemen conducted the interview together, and every word which Mr. Vanderbilt said was overheard by both and the main points noted. When he referred to the Anti-Monopolists, he certainly did say that he considered them to be, for the most part, fools and black-mailers. Also, he certainly did say "the public be -----," when reference was made to whether he ran his limited express for its benefit. ----- Despite Vanderbilt's protests, the comments circulated widely in the following days and weeks, often serving as fodder for editorial writers. Some newspapers supplied the entire unexpurgated quote: ----- Washington Post, Oct 14, 1882, p. 2 The public gracefully declines to accept Mr. Vanderbilt's kind permission to "be damned" for not liking his stingy management of railroads and the fatal results of his "economy." ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 18, 1882, p. 4 This, however, but faintly represents Mr. Vanderbilt's frankness. "The public be -----!" he exclaimed. [...] Mr. Vanderbilt may damn the public as long as his vulgar breath lasts, but the public will finally get even with him -- of this he may rest assured. ----- Washington Post, Oct 19, 1882, p. 2 Hoever willing Mr. Vanderbilt may be for the public to "be damned," he is in no hurry to arrive at the final judgment in his own proper person. ----- Boston Globe, Oct 25, 1882, p. 2 The rumor now is that Vanderbilt only said "The public be blessed." But is he taking any pains to bless it? Well, not this season. ----- New York Times, Oct 30, 1882, p. 4 In his famous interview with a Chicago reporter, in which Mr. Vanderbilt was represented as saying, "The public be blanked," or words to that effect, the great man also gave his views concerning the so-called "Nickel Plate" Railroad. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 22:09:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:09:27 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny Message-ID: So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different college campus. If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes dancing in cages. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: Hootenanny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from the New >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / >sing their music if they are musicians. > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different >vowels >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >doesn't fit >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to >call >it? > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~ The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I think that usage was fairly widespread. A. Murie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 22:12:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:12:43 -0800 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 Message-ID: Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may create additional discord. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Connie Eble reports: Dear Ron, =A0=A0 I'll ask my students.=A0 But my feeling is that dope is used today as much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple of years. =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 C= onnie --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:26:27 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:26:27 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <20050307220927.23275.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't that disco? At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >college campus. > >If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >dancing in cages. > >JL > >sagehen wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Hootenanny >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from > the New > >Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz pianist, a > >raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he hosts this annual > >broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until 1am every 31 December - 1 > >January; fashionable people are invited and interviewed by him, and play / > >sing their music if they are musicians. > > > >Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in Jools' > >context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / raucous / joyful > >(onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of syllables and different > >vowels > >in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for > >'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it > >doesn't fit > >comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know *what* to > >call > >it? > > > >Damien Hall > >University of Pennsylvania >~~~~~~~~ >The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >think that usage was fairly widespread. >A. Murie > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Mar 7 22:57:47 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:57:47 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050307172458.035b1ab0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. Peter --On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't > that disco? > > At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >> So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >> about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >> college campus. >> >> If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >> dancing in cages. >> >> JL >> >> sagehen wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: sagehen >> Subject: Re: Hootenanny >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ------- >> >> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >> the New >> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >> > >> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >> > syllables and different vowels >> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >> > doesn't fit >> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >> > *what* to call >> > it? >> > >> > Damien Hall >> > University of Pennsylvania >> ~~~~~~~~ >> The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >> didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >> singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >> might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >> think that usage was fairly widespread. >> A. Murie >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Mon Mar 7 23:12:06 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:12:06 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1110207467@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old! But I was expressing surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig." Disco was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for that). But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! At 05:57 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter > >--On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't >>that disco? >> >>At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >>>So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >>>about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >>>college campus. >>> >>>If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >>>dancing in cages. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>sagehen wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: sagehen >>>Subject: Re: Hootenanny >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>------- >>> >>> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >>>the New >>> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >>> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >>> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >>> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >>> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >>> > >>> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >>> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >>> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >>> > syllables and different vowels >>> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >>> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >>> > doesn't fit >>> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >>> > *what* to call >>> > it? >>> > >>> > Damien Hall >>> > University of Pennsylvania >>>~~~~~~~~ >>>The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >>>didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >>>singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >>>might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >>>think that usage was fairly widespread. >>>A. Murie >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 7 23:42:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:42:24 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny Message-ID: "Hootenanny was presented as a traveling folk music jamboree. Taped at various college campuses, it debuted in the Spring of 1963 as a 30-minute show (8:30pm EST, Saturday) for 13 weeks.... "Shindig! was a rock 'n' roll series that aired on ABC from September 1964 through January 1966." -- TV Tome (Internet, as of today). The babes in cages may have come late in the series. JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Hootenanny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree on your timeline; shindig is way old! But I was expressing surprise that a 1970s show (presumably) would be called "Shindig." Disco was the "in" thing in the '70s (and I was already way too old for that). But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! At 05:57 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter > >--On Monday, March 7, 2005 5:26 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>Yes, this was how we used the term in the '60s too. But shindig? Wasn't >>that disco? >> >>At 05:09 PM 3/7/2005, you wrote: >>>So widespread was it that there was a short-lived TV series of that name >>>about 1965. Each week it featured a folk-music concert from a different >>>college campus. >>> >>>If memory serves, it was replaced by "Shindig," which featured babes >>>dancing in cages. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>sagehen wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: sagehen >>>Subject: Re: Hootenanny >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>------- >>> >>> > Another sense, that no-one's mentioned so far, is known in the UK from >>>the New >>> > Year TV party "Jools' Annual Hootenanny". Jools Holland is a jazz >>> > pianist, a raconteur and definitely someone to be seen with, and he >>> > hosts this annual broadcast musical gathering from about 11am until >>> > 1am every 31 December - 1 January; fashionable people are invited and >>> > interviewed by him, and play / sing their music if they are musicians. >>> > >>> > Before this ADS-L thread I had never come across the word except in >>> > Jools' context, and so assumed that it must mean something noisy / >>> > raucous / joyful (onomatopoeia from 'hoot' and from the number of >>> > syllables and different vowels >>> > in the word, I suppose). But if there are more Google hits for >>> > 'thingumajig'-like meanings, perhaps Jools calls it that because it >>> > doesn't fit >>> > comfortably into any other definition, so he doesn't really know >>> > *what* to call >>> > it? >>> > >>> > Damien Hall >>> > University of Pennsylvania >>>~~~~~~~~ >>>The other use of "hoot(e)nanny," more like the one you cite, and which I >>>didn't learn until I was in college in the late 40s, was for a >>>singalong--usually folk, labor, political kinds of music. Pete Seeger >>>might have presided over this sort of event: don't really remember. I >>>think that usage was fairly widespread. >>>A. Murie >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >***************************************************************** >Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon >******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 8 01:06:46 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:06:46 -0800 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050307180905.03625e28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: --On Monday, March 7, 2005 6:12 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > But "hootenanny"-- that was indeed a Pete Seeger kind of term! I agree. In the early '70s one of the shopping malls in suburban Chattanooga, TN, (where I lived) had periodic hootenannies, in which banjo-and-fiddle ensembles from the area gathered to perform, judges awarded prizes, and the crowds were large. I assumed the use of the term (though probably not the venue) for these events had long predated the popular folk music fad of the 60s and migrated into popular usage along with the music, though I can't prove it. Peter ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Tue Mar 8 02:13:03 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:13:03 -0500 Subject: Hootenanny In-Reply-To: <200503071500485.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geeze, talk about sounding like old farts! the beat scene, the folk scene, the blues scene, rock and roll scene, the hippy / psychedelic scene and then there was the way uncool totally commercial TV shows which were never a music scene and where you found some contrived uncool crap called Shindig with the way uncool idea of babes in cages might as well rent Austin Powers for an update on the culture of swinging. dancin babe, karen >Disco?! Good grief--"shindig" was a word my dad used for any big party, >get-together or "do." So it's older than my 62 years, let alone disco. > >Peter >""" "Shindig," which featured babes in dancing in cages. > >> > >> JL <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> " We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different! " - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Timequake "Bizzare travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God" - Kurt Vonnegut "No One gets in to see the Wizard, Not no way, Not no how!" - The Guard You can't depend on your judgement when your imagination is out of focus. - Mark Twain. "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> L (???) K The Educational CyberPlayGround <"_"> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink Hot Site Awards USA Today Best Bets For Educators Award, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 02:31:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:31:23 -0500 Subject: The meaning of GENERIC in linguistics (one last word for now) In-Reply-To: <20050307124058.L34968@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 12:42 PM -0500 3/7/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >Benjamin Zimmer quotes: > >>>>> >http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h2816i3x/LexSemantik1.pdf > >An expression A is a HYPONYM (i.e. an "undername") of an expression B > >**iff everything that falls under B also falls under A**. > > In this case, B is >called a HYPERONYM (i.e. an "overname"). Examples are 'dog' and >'mammal', 'apple' and 'fruit', 'refrigerator' and 'appliance', 'king' >and 'monarch', 'scarlet' and 'red', 'walk' and 'go'. [...] > <<<<< > >(1) That part is backward: it should be "iff everything that falls under >**A** also falls under **B**". (2) And we also need the requirement that not >everything that falls under B falls under A, because in that case they are >synonyms. > >E.g., (1) all dogs (A) are mammals (B), but not all mammals are dogs, so >"dog" is a hyponym of "mammal". > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > "The last word" on ADS-L is like "the last bug" in programming. heh heh. another last word: I've never liked "hyperonym", and prefer "superordinate" for the converse of "hyponym", despite the fact that it sounds like it should be the converse of "subordinate" instead. And also on those A's and B's. Mark is of course right, but so is Manfred (at the above website). It depends on whether you're talking extensions (as Mark is) or intensions (as I'm assuming Manfred is). That is, even though the extension of the superordinate, or if you insist the hyperonym, e.g. "man", properly includes that of the hyponym, e.g. "bachelor", in that all bachelors are men but not vice versa, the intension or sense of the hyponym properly includes that of the superordinate, in that "bachelor" is specified for all the features "man" is, plus (at least) one additional feature, in this case [- married]. Aristotle actually remarks on this at one point, noting that the genus includes the species (the set of animals includes the set of men), but the species also includes the genus ("man" includes "animal"). larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:01:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:01:56 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <00af01c52322$3aae9f70$f0fbaa84@BOWIE> Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > > > >: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >: less common on campus. > >I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >something that's really in active use *now*. > even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if that's pass? already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old informant, home on spring break... Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke weed". Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:13:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:13:36 -0500 Subject: subdaily In-Reply-To: <20050307161516.T79205@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 4:15 PM -0500 3/7/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >"These days, there are thousands of mailing lists -- mostly free, many >amateur, some exclusive, some not -- filling inboxes on a subdaily basis." >-- Wired Magazine, February 2002, page 95: "The In Crowd" by David >Streitfeld > >Not in OED Online or Merriam-Webster Online. The evident meaning is 'more >frequent than daily', and Google has something like 280 hits which, at a >quick glance, are all technical from various scientific disciplines >(biology, astronomy...) and have this meaning. > >-- Mark A. Mandel >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] A very nice word; at least it's useful, and relatively transparent (I guessed the meaning from the header). An early candidate for Albuquerque, I'd say. I can imagine my dentist telling me I should be brushing subdaily. Or myself realizing that I've been getting subdaily spam entreaties to...whatever. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:19:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:19:07 -0500 Subject: another Tom Kun x-post from Linguist List Message-ID: Actually there were two dialectological queries in this one, although the "fields" are identified as phonetics/phonology/sociolinguistics. One is from Kun (whose earlier query I cross-posted a couple of days ago), the other from someone else. As usual, any replies should go to the originators as well as the list. larry --- begin forwarded text LINGUIST List: Vol-16-669. Mon Mar 07 2005. ISSN: 1068 - 4875. Subject: 16.669, Qs: Australian A-Lengthening;Pittsburgh/Dallas Accents 1) Date: 07-Mar-2005 From: Tonio Green < toniogreen at web.de > Subject: Australian A-Lengthening 2) Date: 07-Mar-2005 From: Tom Kun < tpk0005 at unt.edu > Subject: Pittsburgh and Dallas Accents -------------------------Message 1 ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:05:49 From: Tonio Green < toniogreen at web.de > Subject: Australian A-Lengthening Hello, Can anyone confirm or deny the existence of a "lengthened short a" in Australian English, in particular an apparent phonemic split between short [ae] in 'lad', 'can' (modal verb) and [ae:] in 'bad', 'can' (noun)? If real, this is of course strongly reminiscent of the distinction between lax and tense [ae] in New York City. J. C. Wells' "Accents of English" only mentions lengthening of [ae] in monosyllables in Australian, which can be maintained when class 2 suffixes are added, allowing for pairs like h[ae]mmer 'mallet-like tool' vs. h[ae:]mmer 'one who hams', but says nothing about a c[ae]n/c[ae:n] contrast. Are there any Australians here who have contrasts like c[ae]n/c[ae:n] or l[ae]d/b[ae:d]? Has anything been published about this? Thanks in advance! -- Tonio Green Linguistic Field(s): Phonetics Phonology -------------------------Message 2 ---------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:05:53 From: Tom Kun < tpk0005 at unt.edu > Subject: Pittsburgh and Dallas Accents I'm not a ''linguist'' as such, that is, I don't have a degree, but I'm a bit of an accent enthusiast who reads lots of linguistic research papers and listens to how people pronounce words. I also run a website about regional accents at: http://students.csci.unt.edu/~kun I actually have two questions. The first is about some seemingly conflicting data about a city I've never been in: Pittsburgh. The Atlas of North American English (ANAE) shows that, as in Canada, /o/ and /oh/ (cot and caught) are merged in low-back-rounded position. Unlike in the Canadian Shift, their subjects in Pittsburgh also had /^/ lowered into low-central position, and this is supposed to be blocking /ae/ from lowering. However, I also read a recent paper abstract by Corrine McCarthy ( http://www.lsa.umich.edu/ling/nwav33/files/162.pdf ) which claims that the glide deletion of /aw/ (as in ''dahntahn'') was blocking the /ae/-retraction. She did a study of Pittsburgh and found that as /aw/-monophthongization recedes, /ae/-retraction was occuring. So, does this have any effect on /^/-lowering? My second question is about the city where I live, Dallas. Like I said before, I like to listen to people and notice how they pronounce vowels, and I think I'm hearing the beginnings of the Canadian Shift down here. Pronouncing /o/ as a low back rounded vowel was a traditional Southern feature, and younger speakers here still do this. A few weeks ago this girl was saying ''pond'' and I thought she was saying ''pawn.'' (I'm from Ohio). Well, I am also noticing some /ae/-retraction here. I have a theory about this, but since I don't have any degrees in linguistics, I don't want to put it on my website until someone with some credentials tells me I'm on the right track. My theory is that glide deletion of /ay/, the first stage of the Southern Shift, was blocking the /ae/ retraction, since it was pronounced in low central position. As the salient Southern accent features recede in this city, /ay/ is becoming diphthongal again, thus providing a space for /ae/ to fall into--just like in Canada. So am I on the right track here? Linguistic Field(s): Phonology Sociolinguistics ----------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-16-669 --- end forwarded text From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 03:51:27 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:51:27 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Charley Horse" In-Reply-To: <34058.69.142.143.59.1110232897.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: The earliest previously known usage of "Charley horse," I believe, was 29 Aug. 1886 found by Sam Clements. Charley horse (OED 1888) 1886 _Boston Globe_ 17 July 5 Several years ago, says the Chicago Tribune, Joe Quest, now of the Athletics, gave the name of "Charlie horse" to a peculiar contraction and hardening of the muscles and tendons of the thigh, to which base ball players are especially liable from the sudden starting and stopping in chasing balls, as well as the frequent slides in base running. Pfetlor, Anson and Kelly are so badly troubled with "Charley horse" there are times they can scarcely walk. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 04:41:33 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:41:33 EST Subject: Boston Globe: No "hot dog"? Second "basket ball" Message-ID: 1. _MEXICAN AFFAIRS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=536515472&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clien tId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 16, 1872. p. 5 (1 page) (No "Hot dog" in any of these??--ed.) ... 2. _TWELVE DOG TALES.; Attacked by Seven Savage Dogs. Senator Cameron's Dog a Nuisance. Little Johnny on Dogs. Astonishing the Dogs. Dogs as Watchmen. How to Deal With Dog Bites. A Dog's Services Officially Recognized. A Howling Dog Saves a Life. The Newspaper Dog. Two Hounds Kill and Eat a Horse. A Dog That Attempted Suicide. What a Dog's Tail is Good For. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=548209892&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe. Feb 8, 1883. p. 3 (1 page) ... 3. _Showing How Children "Catch On."_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=563501152&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam e=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 27, 1887. p. 18 (1 page) ... 4. _COLLECTING BADGES.; Thousands of Wheelmen in Washington--Smooth Pavements Are Hard and They Are Having a Good Time. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=568382302&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3 09&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) G S HOWARD. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 18, 1892. p. 2 (1 page) ...... 5. _AMONG THE FIREMEN.; State Firemen's Association Will Meet at Gloucester, Oct. 11, 12 and 13-- Objections Made to the Date and Place of the League Meet. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=568756422&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65 882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jun 11, 1893. p. 26 (1 page) ... 6. _OUT INTO THE STREETS._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=570039102&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1893. p. 6 (1 page) ... 7. _CASE DISMISSED.; Charge Against Sheehan Not Sustained. Order Received in Stastions With Great Joy. Commissioners Divided on the Matter. Whast Gen Masrtin Has to Say About Verdict. How Police and Public View the Entire Subject. GEN MARTIN'S OPINIONS. He Talks Freely in Regard to Case of Sergt Sheehan. WHAT OTHERS THINK. Different Opinions of Officers and Men Around Town. GREENTED WITH CHEERS. Officers of Division 4 Receive the Good News with Jov. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=570435502&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110253469&clientId=65882) Boston Daily. Aug 8, 1894. p. 1 (2 pages) ... ... ... BASKETBALL ... (OED) 1892 _J. NAISMITH_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-n.html#j-naismith) in Triangle (U.S.) Jan. 144 (heading) Basket Ball. We present to our readers a new game of ball. 1893 Birkenhead News 9 Dec. 7/5 Interesting Basket-Ball Match. 1898 Daily News 8 June 5/2 Vassar, Syracuse, Cornell, Wellesley, and Rosemary Hall have each their teams of girl basket-ball players. 1901 Westm. Gaz. 1 May 7/1 A game of ?basket ball?, played by ten over-heated and dishevelled ladies A bloomers! 1926 Encycl. Brit. New Suppl. I. 337/2 Basketball has become the national indoor game of the United States. ... ... _STUDENTS' CONFERENCES.; Religious Addresses and Discussions and Basket Ball. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=568368862&SrchMode=1&sid=37&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110255922&clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Jul 8, 1892. p. 3 (1 page) The students spent the afternoon in athletic sports of various kinds, among which the new game of basket ball is popular. From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 05:12:21 2005 From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:12:21 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: This line is widely associated with Ronald Reagan. A 8/13/86 NYT report of a Reagan news conference reports him saying: "I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." A June, 1978 book review from the WSJ quotes a recent book by George Will as listing these statements as "the three least credible sentences in the English language." But on the Web, some people report that the "I'm from the government" line goes back to the 60's. Can anybody locate (or does anybody know of) an earlier source for this? Geoff Nunberg From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 05:56:31 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:56:31 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2005, at 9:12 PM, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: > ...The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT > article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the > check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as > I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." ... indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different "I won't come in your mouth". (i never really understood the force of #3, but then i'm not your average informant on these things.) arnold From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 06:18:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:18:28 EST Subject: Angry Lobster & Firecracker Applesauce & Drunken Donuts Message-ID: ANGRY LOBSTER--574 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits FIRECRACKER APPLESAUCE--90 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN DONUTS--296 Google hits, 32 Google Groups hits DRUNKEN DOUGHNUTS--66 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits ... I like to go to nice restaurants on Monday, when the crowd is thinnest. Last Monday, I tried Vong. Today, I was going to try David Burke & Donatella. (I'd been to Donatella's Ama and Bellini restaurants). However, I took a look at the menu, and it was quite expensive, and there wasn't anything I was interested in eating. ... The "Angry Lobster" caught my eye--so to speak. And "Drunken Donuts"? This is the "New American" cuisine? ... I'm at home and don't have FACTIVA handy. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) ... _davidburke & donatella - NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus ..._ (http://www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182) ... We shared the angry lobster which lived up to it's reputation of being the best lobster in the city and the tuna & salmon with caviar on top was great as well. ... www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails. asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182 - 58k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:qIwjsyy1BMkJ:www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 ) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.menupages.com/restaurantDetails.asp?areaId=1&restaurantId=5182) ... _New York Post Online Edition: food_ (http://www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm) ... Diners at new Davidburke & Donatella naturally ask what "crisp and angry lobster cocktail" is; waiters quickly inform you that the cranky crustacean is mounted ... www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.nypost.com/food/17233.htm) ... _Time Out New York Eating & Drinking Guide Online_ (http://eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448.eat.critics.php) ... Burke serves his "angry lobster" on a bed of nails (that's right; actual nails poke out of the platter), stands his Bronx-style filet mignon upright on the ... eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448.eat.critics.php - 28k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TkvnGu5v6wgJ:eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articles/448 .eat.critics.php+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:eatdrink.timeoutny.com/articl es/448.eat.critics.php) ... _NapaStyle | Angry Lobster with White Beans_ (http://www.napastyle.com/kitchen/recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115) Angry Lobster with White Beans. print this recipe. email this recipe to a friend. (Serves 4) For the beans: 1 cup dry large white beans ... www.napastyle.com/kitchen/ recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115 - 39k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-sc87lEpuAkJ:www.napastyle.com/kitchen/r ecipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.napastyle.com/kitchen/recipes/recipe.jsp?recipe_id=115) ... _Smith & Wollensky in Chicago - Metromix_ (http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds) ... Seating, 450 booth, banquette, table and bar seats. Smoking, Designated areas. Specialties, Dry-aged beef, crackling pork shank, angry lobster and drunkin' donuts ... metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/ 30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds - 61k - Mar 6, 2005 - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:tT2N1u9n-2wJ:metromix.chicagotribune.com/dining/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-di ning_top_heds+"angry+lobster"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:metromix.chicagotribune.com/dini ng/30491,0,7573638.venue?coll=mmx-dining_top_heds) ... _F. Illi Ponte Ristorante - NYC Restaurant & Menu Guide. Menus ..._ (http://www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996) ... Service, Value, Atmosphere, Posted by NY on 12/19/2003 The Angry Lobster. ... The Famous "Angry Lobster" is FANTASTIC and I highly recomend it to any lobster fan. ... www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails. asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996 - 60k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vwrFYsz7T08J:www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&restaurantid=1996+"angry+lobster "&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.menupages.com/restaurantdetails.asp?neighborhoodid=0&res taurantid=1996) (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSP < 3. _Restaurants; Where the gimmicks never end, from Amazon fish ribs to firecracker applesauce. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=115989648&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110261 126&clientId=65882) Ruth Reichl. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1996. p. C33 (1 page) The whipped potatoes, which the chef and partner, David Burke, made famous at Park Avenue Cafe, taste more of olive oil than potatoes, and the hashed browns are dry and overcooked. (...) The entrees to avoid are the silly monkfish Wellington, a piece of nearly tasteless fish topped with mushrooms and wrapped in soggy pastry, and the "angry" lobster. Half a five-pound lobster dusted with peppery flour and sauteed with sliced garlic is a lot to wrestle with. Unlike the similar sauteed lobster at F.illi Ponte in TriBeCa, this one is so tough it made me wonder if the beast had been cooked twice. If you want lobster here, it's much better to have it steamed. ... End the meal with drunkedn doughnuts. It's another gimmick, but it's charming. The waiter arrives shaking a pristine white paper bag. He opens it at the table, pours warm twists of sugar-dusted dough onto a plate and sets down three pots of liquor-laced jam. The combination is irresistible. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) _TIME Magazine Archive Article -- Doughnuts: Not Just for Breakfast ..._ (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,994425,00.html) ... Pastry chefs are now filling their after-dinner menus with doughnuts and fritters fresh from the fryer, like the Drunken Doughnuts at New York City's Maloney ... www.time.com/time/archive/ preview/0,10987,994425,00.html - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.time.com/time/ar chive/preview/0,10987,994425,00.html) ... _addyourown: Maloney & Porcelli, Midtown, Manhattan restaurants_ (http://www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1) ... Tell a friend about Maloney & Porcelli Review: Features "drunken doughnuts", doughnuts filled with liquor. Edit this review - add your own comments! ... www.addyourown.com/restaurant. php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1 - 4k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:hmfvhZ_wM04J:www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1+"drunken+doughnuts"&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=1733&cat_id=1&city_id=1) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 06:29:39 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:29:39 -0500 Subject: shindig Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 21:17:12 -0500, Michael McKernan wrote: >I evidently missed the previous post on 'shindig' but if it matters to >anyone, I have the following citation handy: > >Saturday, December 21, 1878 Rochester Indiana The Rochester Sentinel >> Last week a shindig was given at Widow DICKERHOFF's in honor of one >>NEAISWANGER... >http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/Html/Newspape >rs%201878.htm > >If I have this, without ever having looked for it (before), surely someone >else has found something earlier...please let me know, since I don't have >any of the standard references handy. OED2 has an 1871 cite from Bret Harte for the 'country dance' sense. (There's an obsolete sense, 'a blow on the shins', attested in 1859.) But the American Periodical Series takes it back at least to 1848: ---- 1848 _The John-Donkey_ 14 Oct. 111/2 She desired to have a shin-dig, or dress ball, for the benefit of herself and the juvenile Mahoneys. ---- MW11 dates it to 1842. --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 8 06:33:33 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:33:33 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <3e38801031e86d3a19780a645f85746d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: >indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love >you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different >"I won't come in your mouth". I've heard the same ones, and I'm sure all four before 1970. -- Doug Wilson From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Tue Mar 8 06:34:14 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 00:34:14 -0600 Subject: Paris Hilton'd Message-ID: Durst sues Web sites over porn images Knight Ridder Newspapers Mar. 7, 2005 05:40 PM We knew if we lived long enough, there'd come a day when we might actually understand something Fred Durst did or said. Like a lawsuit. The Limp Bizkit frontman is suing a slew of Web sites for posting clips and stills from a graphic home-made porn vid in which he starred. Rock Dude was Paris Hilton'd last month by the same fiendish evildoer who infiltrated her cell phone - the vid was hacked from his home computer. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 8 06:39:08 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 01:39:08 EST Subject: shindig Message-ID: In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:30:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: MW11 dates it to 1842. --Ben Zimmer Probably from me. See the old ADS-L archives. (Sigh.) ... Barry Popik From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 13:22:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 05:22:20 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > > > >: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >: less common on campus. > >I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >something that's really in active use *now*. > even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if that's pass? already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old informant, home on spring break... Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke weed". Larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 8 14:42:06 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:42:06 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter : Connie Eble reports: :: I'll ask my students. But my feeling is that dope is used today as :: much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to :: drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple :: of years. : Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may : create additional discord. *But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, or presumably 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /excellent/). (I made all my homonyms homographs just to make it visual, as well.) Incidentally--when i mentioned Nick at Nite earlier, i was thinking mainly of shows like Dragnet--i know it's in syndication, but i'm not sure if Nickelodeon shows it. Seems the kind of thing that would show up there, though, especially in the second half of the time block. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Mar 8 14:40:19 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 09:40:19 -0500 Subject: shindig In-Reply-To: <158.4c140354.2f5ea28c@aol.com> Message-ID: The citation backing our 1842 date comes from The New York Daily Express, May 10, 1842. For some strange reason the citation slip reports this quotation as having come from Mr. Barnhart and Mr. Metcalf's _America in So Many Words_, where the term is indeed treated, but, as far as I can see, this particular citation is not given. I'm sure that the quotation did in fact come from Mr. Popik, and will make sure that he gets the proper credit. By the way, wasn't there another 1960s rock and roll show called "Hullabaloo?" Course, I was just a kid then. Maybe I was confusing something else with Desi Arnaz' "Babalu." Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 8 Mar 2005, at 1:39, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/8/2005 1:30:04 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > > MW11 dates it to 1842. > > --Ben Zimmer > > > Probably from me. See the old ADS-L archives. (Sigh.) > ... > Barry Popik From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 8 16:07:08 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:07:08 -0500 Subject: dope Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter writes: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL ~~~~~~~~~~ I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say "I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:40:26 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:40:26 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 21:12:21 -0800, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote: >This line is widely associated with Ronald Reagan. A 8/13/86 NYT >report of a Reagan news conference reports him saying: "I think you >all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the >English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" > >The earliest cite I've found for the line is from an April, 1978 NYT >article in which someone says, "you know the three great lies,,, ;the >check is in the mail; I'm going to love you as much in the morning as >I do tonight, and I'm from the Government and here to help you." A >June, 1978 book review from the WSJ quotes a recent book by George >Will as listing these statements as "the three least credible >sentences in the English language." > >But on the Web, some people report that the "I'm from the government" >line goes back to the 60's. Can anybody locate (or does anybody know >of) an earlier source for this? I can push it back to 1976 on Newspaperarchive, but the earliest cite is still attributed to George Will. And considering how close Will was to Reagan, I'd guess that's where Reagan got the line too... ----- (Frederick, Md.) News, July 19, 1976, p. 4 "Why Do Fewer Voters Care" by William Burleigh The American condition, columnist George Will told a group not long ago, can be summed up in three sentences we're hearing these days: "Your check is in the mail." "I will respect you as much in the morning." "I am from the government and I am here to help you." ----- Lincoln (Neb.) Star, Feb. 16, 1977, p. 18 "It's Your Money" by Jane Bryant Quinn The old gag says there are three statements you should never believe: "The check is in the mail," "I'll love you just as much in the morning," and "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you." ----- --Ben Zimmer From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 8 16:45:42 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:45:42 -0500 Subject: dope Message-ID: What about mary jane? That's pretty passe', isn't it? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 at 11:07 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: dope >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the >"poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:53:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:53:51 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <3e38801031e86d3a19780a645f85746d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: And then there's the "Polish" take on the matter: What are the two biggest lies in Poland? "The check is in your mouth" and "I won't come in the mail". Larry From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Mar 8 16:55:52 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:55:52 -0800 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050308012835.03002080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2005, at 10:33 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> indications of a misspent young life: #2 for me was "I'll still love >> you in the morning" (a briefer variant), but #3 was the very different >> "I won't come in your mouth". > > I've heard the same ones, and I'm sure all four before 1970. the three i reported were a standing joke in my circle in my college days (1958-62). the government one i noticed much later, by at least a decade and maybe more. arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 17:34:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: <422DB9BE.7030900@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 9:42 AM -0500 3/8/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter >: Connie Eble reports: > >:: I'll ask my students. But my feeling is that dope is used today as >:: much as an evaluative term ('good', 'excellent') as to refer to >:: drugs. I've been collecting dank for marijuana for the past couple >:: of years. > >: Connie is undoubtedly right. But the existence of "dope" adj. may >: create additional discord. > >*But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if >two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how >they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or >even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both >consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very >different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, maybe "cape" (promontory vs. cloak) is a better example, since the two "lead"s are only homographs, not homonyms > or >presumably 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /excellent/). > Yours is indeed the standard view (for good reason) within homonymy avoidance research, including a very useful book by Edna Rees Williams, _The Avoidance of Homonyms in English_ (Yale U. Press, 1944), that includes the observation that "Only when the words are alike in sound, when they are in common use in the same social and intellectual circles, when they perform the same syntactical functions in the language, within the same sphere of ideas, do they become subject to mutual confusion and conflict." The cases involving homonymically inspired word (or sense) loss are typically of this type, like Gilli?ron's famous _gat_ ('rooster' vs. 'cat") case in SW France, _let_ ('allow'/ 'hinder'), _queen_ 'sovereign' vs. _quean_ 'harlot', _strait_/_straight_, _pale_ 'shovel'/pail, _an ear_ vs. _a neer_ 'kidney', etc. In cases of taboo avoidance, we seem to extend the boundaries of what counts as closely related, whence the downfall of "cock", "ass", "coney", etc.--and, more recently, even "niggardly". Then of course there are those (typically evaluative) cases in which homonymy is exploited, and confusion is courted rather than avoided--"bad", "stupid", perhaps "gay". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 17:35:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:35:54 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how pass? can it be? L From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 8 17:57:46 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 12:57:46 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >>Jonathan Lighter writes: >> >>What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >>"Grass." >> >>JL >>~~~~~~~~~~ >>I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >>different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." >> Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >>"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >>It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >>to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >>A. Murie >> >Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how pass? can it be? > >L ~~~~~~~~~ Sorry. You've lost me there. I know what it means in general but not in capitalized particular! AM From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 18:11:08 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:11:08 -0500 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:57 PM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: > >At 11:07 AM -0500 3/8/05, sagehen wrote: >>>Jonathan Lighter writes: >>> >>>What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >>>"Grass." >>> >>>JL >>>~~~~~~~~~~ >>>I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >>>different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." >>> Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >>>"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >>>It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >>>to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >>>A. Murie >>> >>Well, there's The Straight Dope, so how pass? can it be? >> >>L >~~~~~~~~~ >Sorry. You've lost me there. I know what it means in general but not in >capitalized particular! >AM I'm referring to Cecil Adams's very useful, enjoyable, and almost always reliable column (in the Chicago Reader) and web resource, http://www.straightdope.com/, with searchable archives and other fun stuff. Sorry if I was too cryptic; the above web site has come up a lot in previous discussions here, so I didn't elaborate. Larry From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 18:28:56 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 10:28:56 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way about other languages too). He looks for meaning differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he says exactly what he means. For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally because he really means 'because'. He's also driven himself a little batty looking for the meaning difference between 'that' and 'which'. I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 8 18:52:42 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 13:52:42 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308182856.93371.qmail@web20426.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:28 AM -0800 3/8/05, Ed Keer wrote: >The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >about other languages too). He looks for meaning >differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >says exactly what he means. > >For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >himself a little batty looking for the meaning >difference between 'that' and 'which'. > >I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > Like the homonymy issue, it depends on how narrowly you cast your net. The claim (which I associate with Michel Br?al and Dwight Bolinger, but I'm sure there are there others over the decades who have taken similar positions) is that there is no true/complete synonymy, if this is defined not just to take into account sameness of truth-conditional or literal meaning but also identity in connotation, register, "quaintness", grammatical properties, etc., with the result that the two items, the putative synonyms, would be mutually substitutable for each other in all contexts without affecting meaning or "tone" in any way. So the example we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, "fridge" vs. "ice box" vs. "refrigerator", wouldn't be a counterexample, given their difference in register, even though they all have the same referential meaning and arguably the same sense. The idea is that each word must earn its keep in the (mental) lexicon or it will disappear; Br?al (in the late 1890s) posited a "law of differentiation" that dictated that the meaning or use conditions on one of the synonyms (resulting from the adoption of a loanword, for example) will shift, so synonymy will no longer obtain; he gives examples like "animal" vs. "beast" vs. "deer" (orig. = 'animal'). The "Avoid Synonymy" principle, so named by Paul Kiparsky in the early 1980s, also applies to the meanings of affixed terms; the result is only one word per meaning slot. This can be (and has been) seen as a reflex of a more general "Elsewhere Principle" that Kiparsky traces back to the great Sanskrit grammarian Panini. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 21:21:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:21:58 -0500 Subject: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help (you)' Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 11:40:26 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >----- >(Frederick, Md.) News, July 19, 1976, p. 4 >"Why Do Fewer Voters Care" by William Burleigh >The American condition, columnist George Will told a group not long ago, >can be summed up in three sentences we're hearing these days: >"Your check is in the mail." >"I will respect you as much in the morning." >"I am from the government and I am here to help you." >----- A slightly earlier cite, with an attribution from the other end of the political spectrum: ----- (Zanesville, Ohio) Times Recorder, March 7, 1976, p. 4-A We like Sen. Edmund Muskie's list of the "three most commonly told lies." The first is "I put your check in the mail yesterday." Second is "I gave at the office." And third is "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you." ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 8 21:58:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:58:24 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" Message-ID: ----- http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ The good, the bad and the fugly A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- like guys with curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the golden age of bad looks? ----- The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to the early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been found? --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Mar 8 22:01:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 16:01:02 -0600 Subject: Salon on "fugly" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:58 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ > The good, the bad and the fugly > A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- > like guys with curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the > golden age of bad looks? > ----- > > The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" > dates to the early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than > the 1984 HDAS cite been found? > > When this post popped up, I happened to be looking at the blog "Go Fug Yourself: Fugly is the New Pretty" http://gofugyourself.typepad.com/go_fug_yourself/ Very catty commentary on celebrities who don't use much sense in dressing up for public appearances. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 8 22:06:23 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:06:23 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <33777.69.142.143.59.1110319104.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 04:58:24PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/03/08/fugly/ > The good, the bad and the fugly > A new fashion buzzword denotes monstrous sartorial sins -- like guys with > curly hair who wear mullets. Are we in the golden age of bad looks? > ----- > > The esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to the > early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been > found? Yes, there's a 1970 quote in _The F-Word_ from an Australian source. I think it's Australian at least--I can't find the source at the moment. Definitely non-US. Jesse Sheidlower OED From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 8 22:09:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:09:00 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <33777.69.142.143.59.1110319104.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Esteemed? What a shame. Respectability at such a young age... Jesse's got an earlier cite for it in "F-Word," and I bet we could find more if we hit paper rather than databases. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 8, 2005, at 16:58, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > the esteemed Grant Barrett is quoted as saying that "fugly" dates to > the > early to mid-'80s. Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been > found? From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 8 22:14:29 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:14:29 -0500 Subject: Salon on "fugly" In-Reply-To: <20050308220623.GA1378@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 17:06, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Tue, Mar 08, 2005 at 04:58:24PM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> Has anything earlier than the 1984 HDAS cite been >> found? > Yes, there's a 1970 quote in _The F-Word_ from an Australian > source. I think it's Australian at least--I can't find the > source at the moment. Definitely non-US. Pipped by the man himself. I'd like to see what Roly Sussex has on "fugly." In the article linked below he writes that he has a database of 10,000 citations for Americanisms; I can only imagine what he has for Australianisms. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3109 Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:42:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:42:24 -0800 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I get over 3,000 Google hits for "get the dope on" and nearly 9,000 for "dope sheet." (I get nearly 2,000 for "smokin' dope.") But as with "dope" (Coca-Cola), I imagine that the info-related terms are primarily used by senior citizens. I have a friend (70) who often uses "dope it out," though only a few hundred examples turn up on Google. Such cases support the point I made some years ago that once a slang term gains a foothold, it is not likely to have the stereotypical lifespan "measurable in weeks or months." Most all of these "dope" expressions (except the adjective) are about 100 years old or more. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: dope ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter writes: What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! "Grass." JL ~~~~~~~~~~ I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the "poop." Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say "I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:49:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:49:10 -0800 Subject: dope In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Maryjane" [sic] + "pot" = 132,000 Google hits. Many of these undoubtedly refer to the proper name "Maryjane," but that's a whole lotta hits! My students report that "Mary Jane" too is still in use on campus. And who am I to argue? JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: Re: dope ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What about mary jane? That's pretty passe', isn't it? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 at 11:07 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: dope >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter writes: > >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I know ! >"Grass." > >JL >~~~~~~~~~~ >I'm wondering if even more passe than "grass" is "dope" in an entirely >different sense: that of information, the "gen," the "skinny," the >"poop." > Weren't racing forms sometimes called "dope sheets"? Someone might say >"I'll send you the dope on how to sign up." >It was also a verb. We used to say "I'm going to dope this out, " & sim. >to mean try to understand instructions, or translate or work out a puzzle. >A. Murie > > > >~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 8 23:59:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:59:17 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way about other languages too). He looks for meaning differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he says exactly what he means. For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally because he really means 'because'. He's also driven himself a little batty looking for the meaning difference between 'that' and 'which'. I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 9 00:05:37 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:05:37 -0500 Subject: Coochy-coo In-Reply-To: <422D7303.27594.513EBA9@localhost> Message-ID: Anybody know the etymology of "coochy" as in the "coochy-coochy-coo" traditionally said to the baby while chucking its chin or whatever? (My question does NOT refer to a hootchie-cootchie dancer, or to any sex organ!) Is this just a nonsense sound? Maybe baby-talk for "cutie" or something? Maybe from French or Gaelic or something? Anybody know what book to consult for this question? -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 00:26:29 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:26:29 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 15:59:17 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the >English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of >discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > >This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," >but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be >considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. The Chambers Dictionary (famed for its distinctly unhelpful definitions) has these entries: FURZE: whin or gorse. WHIN: gorse, furze. GORSE: furze or whin, a prickly papilionaceous shrub. [aha!] --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 00:57:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:57:11 -0500 Subject: Drunken Donuts; Fugly; Letter to the Editor of Tulsa World this time Message-ID: DRUNKEN DONUTS (continued) Maybe "drunken donuts" started here? (FACTIVA) FIRST: EATS NOT JUST FOR COPS RONALD B. LIEBER 227 words 23 December 1996 Fortune Magazine SPECIAL YEAR-END DOUBLE ISSUE/INVESTOR'S GUIDE 1997 32 Issue: DECEMBER 23, 1996 VOL. 134 NO. 12 English (Copyright 1996) Doughnuts have gone upscale. Don't worry, good old-fashioned varieties are still readily available at Dunkin' Donuts or Krispy Kreme. And the hosts at Lou Mitchell's in Chicago still serve the best doughnut holes on the planet, while beignets continue their reign at Cafe Du Monde in New Orleans. But now you can get Drunken Donuts (get it?) at Maloney & Porcelli, a new Manhattan steak house (not yet rated by Zagat), where the fritters are served with three kinds of liqueur-infused jam; at the French Laundry in Napa Valley, a dessert of doughnuts comes with "coffee"--a cup of rich frozen cappuccino pudding. All of the above are tasty and truly decadent. Just the way doughnuts should be. --Ronald B. Lieber -------------------------------------------------------------- FUGLY (continued) Some "fugly" from Factiva and Worldcat. "Truckin' fugly" appears to be American. (FACTIVA) And the winners are not happy. 104 words 10 May 2003 Courier-Mail 3 English (c) 2003 Queensland Newspapers Pty Ltd THEY are not as well known as the Logies, offer notoriety rather than prestige, and even their name lacks the dignity associated with Australia's night of nights. But organisers of the Queensland-based Fugly awards have handed them out anyway, honouring personalities in categories you won't see at the Logies. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: F'ugly, faint clues and cunning tales / Author(s): David, Scarlett Lynn. Year: 1982 Description: 138 leaves ; 29 cm. Language: English Note(s): Typescript./ Dissertation: Thesis (M.A.W.)--Washington University, 1982. Dept. of English. Responsibility: by Scarlett Lynn David. Material Type: Thesis/dissertation (deg); Fiction (fic); Manuscript (mss) Document Type: Book; Archival Material Entry: 19820726 Update: 20040102 Accession No: OCLC: 8630832 Database: WorldCat Title: Reviews : timely twosome. Author(s): Brannigan, Erin. Year: 1998 In: Dance Australia. no. 94 (Feb./Mar. 1998), p. 63. Language: English SUBJECT(S) Named Person: Stewart, Garry. Guerin, Lucy. Named Corp: One Extra Dance Theatre (Company) Note(s): Review of Remote, choreographed by Lucy Guerin, and Fugly, choreographed by Garry Stewart, performed by One Extra Company at Seymour Theatre Centre, November 1997. Document Type: Article Title: Nazis torture aliens underground Grinnell Author(s): Preston, Bryan. ; Lind, Gregg. Corp Author(s): Origamitron (Musical group) Publication: [Grinnell, Iowa :; Bryan P., Year: 2000 Description: 1 sound disc (42 min.) :; digital ;; 4 3/4 in. Language: English Contents: Molotov (theme) --; Like a hurricane of love /; Gregg Lind --; Fuck the dead (bit) --; Live seizure --; Yer mother's new car ;; Time is the enemy /; Gregg Lind --; ready.set.chaunce --; Cajun country car wreck --; Gastric revolution --; Personal space invasion /; Gregg Lind --; Fugly wattle bull --; Lovefeed --; Gobots on patrol in rural Guatemala. Author(s): McIntosh, Grizz. Corp Author(s): Grizzly Bear-with-me Press. Publication: Wayne, NE : Grizzly Bear-with-Me Media, Year: 2001 Description: 37 p. ; 22 cm. + 1 CD-ROM. Language: English Contents: The big $pending daydreams of a North American Grizz -- Virtuoso -- Ironclad lullaby -- Never a cowboy -- Motorvating -- The eleven miles between St. Edward and Genoa -- Moving 'til Monday -- Nickels in the well -- Truckin Fugly -- World is yellow -- Backseat Rita -- Cruising? -- Grease zerks and green apples: a fictional letter -- Heirlooms: a question of genetics -- West of the 100th meridian -- Oompunks and tailfins -- Ballad of Icarus -- Roots & all -- Schwartze -- Welcome to Nebraska -- Raging slab -- The last buffalo. -------------------------------------------------------------- LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF TULSA WORLD (OR, "BIG APPLE WHORE HOAX" DAILY NEWS) I'll let Gerald Cohen write this one. Of course, the mayor of New York City and some others could help me with this and get this guy's site off the web. But they promote it. (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City Letters to the editor are encouraged. Each letter must be signed and include an address and a telephone number where the writer can be reached during business hours. Addresses and phone numbers will not be published. Letters should be a maximum of 200 words to be considered for publication and may be edited for length, style and grammar. Letters should be addressed to Letters to the Editor, Tulsa World, Box 1770, Tulsa, Okla., 74102, or send e-mail to letters at tulsaworld.com. Author(s): McIntosh, Grizz. Corp Author(s): Grizzly Bear-with-me Press. Publication: Wayne, NE : Grizzly Bear-with-Me Media, Year: 2001 Description: 37 p. ; 22 cm. + 1 CD-ROM. Language: English Contents: The big $pending daydreams of a North American Grizz -- Virtuoso -- Ironclad lullaby -- Never a cowboy -- Motorvating -- The eleven miles between St. Edward and Genoa -- Moving 'til Monday -- Nickels in the well -- Truckin Fugly -- World is yellow -- Backseat Rita -- Cruising? -- Grease zerks and green apples: a fictional letter -- Heirlooms: a question of genetics -- West of the 100th meridian -- Oompunks and tailfins -- Ballad of Icarus -- Roots & all -- Schwartze -- Welcome to Nebraska -- Raging slab -- The last buffalo. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 01:50:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:50:54 -0500 Subject: "Here, there and Everywhere" (1826) Message-ID: Again, Google Answers made $2 more than a query here. Yes, Mark Twain coined this. (GOOGLE ANSWERS) Question: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=486954 Was "Here, There, and Everywhere." a popular expression before it became the title of a Beatles song? If yes, what is the origin of the phrase? FYI - I'm posting the same question re: "The Long and Winding Road." Answer: Greetings Whatda, The earliest instance I located of the words together in the order you cite is from Chapter 5 of Mark Twain's "The Adventures of Tom Sawyer" published 130 years ago, in 1875: (...) (LITERATURE ONLINE) Shelley, Mary Wollstonecraft, 1797-1851 [Author Page] The Last Man (1826) 1087Kb The Last Man. By the Author of Frankenstein. In Three Volumes [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. III. [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER IX. [Durable URL for this text] ...at his feet. What to do we knew not---the breakers here, there, everywhere, encompassed us---they roared, and dashed, and flung their... Davis, Charles Augustus, 1795-1867 [Author Page] Letters of J. Downing, Major [pseud.], Downingville Militia, Second Brigade, to His Old Friend, Mr. Dwight, of the New York Daily Advertiser. (1834) 401Kb Letters of J. Downing, Major [pseud.], Downingville Militia, Second Brigade, to His Old Friend, Mr. Dwight, of the New York Daily Advertiser. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] LETTER XIX. [Durable URL for this text] ...that ain't the worst on't,' says I, `our money is here, there, and everywhere; and I don't see how we shall... Thomas, Frederick W. (Frederick William), 1806-1866 [Author Page] Clinton Bradshaw; or, The Adventures of a Lawyer, Volume 1 (1835) 636Kb Clinton Bradshaw; or, The Adventures of a Lawyer, volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER VI. [Durable URL for this text] ...study for your office; study as you walk the streets, here, there, everywhere. I do not mean that you should lose... Gore, Mrs. (Catherine Grace Frances), 1799-1861 [Author Page] Mrs. Armytage (1836) 975Kb Mrs. Armytage; or, Female Domination. By the Authoress of "Mothers and Daughters." In Three Volumes. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): VOL. I. [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER XII. [Durable URL for this text] ...the old borough; at the tag end of the poll, here, there, and everywhere! You understand me?" "Sir!" cried Reginald, in... Simms, William Gilmore, 1806-1870 [Author Page] Mellichampe: A Legend of the Santee, Volume 1 (1836) 488Kb Mellichampe: A Legend of the Santee, Volume 1 [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] CHAPTER IV. [Durable URL for this text] ...parts lately, have you?" inquired Blonay. "Dang it, stranger, they're here, there, and everywhere: they're never long missing from any one... Morris, George Pope, 1802-1864 [Author Page] The Little Frenchman and His Water Lots, with Other Sketches of the Times (1839) 199Kb The Little Frenchman and His Water Lots, with Other Sketches of the Times [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] MR. BEVERLEY LEE. [Durable URL for this text] ...wonderful still, a sort of magical ubiquity, for he was here, there, and everywhere at the same time. At one moment... Stuart-Wortley, Emmeline, Lady, 1806-1855 [Author Page] Alphonzo Algarves (1841) 401Kb ALPHONZO ALGARVES. A PLAY IN FIVE ACTS. [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT IV. [Durable URL for this text] Scene I. [Durable URL for this text] ...movement---) A winged Ubiquity---an Omnipresence--- Here, there, and everywhere!--- [Stage direction] ... Dickens, Charles, 1812-1870 [Author Page] Dombey and Son (1848) 2186Kb Dombey and Son. By Charles Dickens. With Illustrations by H. K. Browne [Durable URL for this text] Found 1 hit(s): CHAPTER XXV. STRANGE NEWS OF UNCLE SOL. [Durable URL for this text] ...shipping, on the bank-side, up the river, down the river, here, there, everywhere, it went gleaming where men were thickest, like... From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Mar 9 01:56:59 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:56:59 -0600 Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" Message-ID: Dear Editor, The brothel story about New York City's nickname "The Big Apple" is a hoax. It has been circulated on the web, but there is not a shred of truth to it. None. Sincerely, Gerald Cohen, Ph.D. Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology, especially of British and American slang; author: Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple" (1991); a revised edition will appear in two years and include a detailed refutation of the brothel etymology.) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 office phone (secretary): (573) 341-4869 email: gcohen at umr.edu P.S. Independent scholar Barry Popik deserves great credit for his work on "The Big Apple." You may check out his website at barrypopik.com. (I have also published his contributions to the subject in several of my articles, and the revision of my book on this topic will be co-authored with him.) [in reference to:] (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:20:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:20:37 -0800 Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Is the "anatomical features" business the latest fantasy attached to this canard? JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Letter to Editor on "The Big Apple" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Editor, The brothel story about New York City's nickname "The Big Apple" is a hoax. It has been circulated on the web, but there is not a shred of truth to it. None. Sincerely, Gerald Cohen, Ph.D. Professor of German and Russian (research specialty: Etymology, especially of British and American slang; author: Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple" (1991); a revised edition will appear in two years and include a detailed refutation of the brothel etymology.) University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65409 office phone (secretary): (573) 341-4869 email: gcohen at umr.edu P.S. Independent scholar Barry Popik deserves great credit for his work on "The Big Apple." You may check out his website at barrypopik.com. (I have also published his contributions to the subject in several of my articles, and the revision of my book on this topic will be co-authored with him.) [in reference to:] (FACTIVA) OPINION Historical facts Staff Reports 219 words 4 March 2005 Tulsa World FINAL HOME EDITION A18 English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. "The big what?" (Feb. 25) about the new campaign by New York City to call itself The World's Second Home ends by citing the current nickname, The Big Apple. The writer says: "Stick with 'The Big Apple.' It has more class." I had to chuckle as I did a Google search on the origin of the nickname while teaching American Culture to my students at the Petroleum University of East China last year. The origin may have something to do with certain anatomical features of the ladies at a house of ill repute in the early days of the city. I miss the Page 2 call-in feature the World dropped in January, but today the editorial page was as entertaining as that page ever was. Linda Shindler, Ponca City --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Wed Mar 9 02:41:40 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 21:41:40 -0500 Subject: dictionary entry for fugly Message-ID: For another treatment, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8, 1993, p 137), the quote from which has a slightly different take: Some sections of US society have their own specific vocabulary. Your fellow drinkers back at the bar, for instance. Are they students? Drop easily then into collegiate slang. They won't be drunk at the end of the evening, they'll be combooselated. The may be facement (handsome) or fugly (fat and ugly). Brian Lynch, "The bar code," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_ [Great Britain] (Nexis), Sept. 15, 1991, p 21 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:49:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:49:41 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) Message-ID: The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) Me, I say "your. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 02:51:24 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 18:51:24 -0800 Subject: dictionary entry for fugly In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Right, and BUFF (B-52 or other huge airplane) stands for "Big Ugly Fat Fellow." JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: dictionary entry for fugly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For another treatment, see The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 8, 1993, p 137), the quote from which has a slightly different take: Some sections of US society have their own specific vocabulary. Your fellow drinkers back at the bar, for instance. Are they students? Drop easily then into collegiate slang. They won't be drunk at the end of the evening, they'll be combooselated. The may be facement (handsome) or fugly (fat and ugly). Brian Lynch, "The bar code," _Manchester Guardian Weekly_ [Great Britain] (Nexis), Sept. 15, 1991, p 21 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:32:09 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:32:09 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22your_guys's=22?= (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: <20050309024941.32899.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I checked to see how y?all?s was doing, vis a vis the google. Your all?s has 278,000 hits; y?all?s 22,900; yall?s 7,790. Might this suggest that ?you? + ?guys? is not as far along the lexicalization path as ?yall?? But is on its way? The process may be not dissimilar to the acquisition of the tense system. When my older son was about 3 years old, many years ago, he produced the following utterances: I catched a bee fish. It didn?t bit. It didn?t bits. He then abandoned the linguist problem and finished what he wanted to say. Knowing where to put inflectional morphemes is tricky, either when acquiring your language, or when the language is changing. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) > > Me, I say "your. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 03:34:02 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:34:02 -0800 Subject: "Build" = prepare (something to eat) Message-ID: 2004 Jared Hess & Jerusha Hess Napoleon Dynamite (film) : I'll build her a cake or something. JL --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 03:45:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 19:45:43 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Am not sure what you mean by "lexicalized" in this case. "Widespread," maybe? I don't recall hearing this before and have no idea of its social or geographical distribution. I certainly agree that novel forms such as this must develop or be adopted early in the individual's acquisition of English. And to survive into adulthood, they either must not be strongly discouraged by parents, or else they must be so common already that parents' corrections go unheeded. I'm much persuaded of the principle that novel grammatical forms created by children lie at the root of most all substantive grammatical change in language, including the disruption and loss of case endings, leveling of verbal moods, etc. It's the little tots who ruin language for the rest of us ! Had W. C. Fields been a linguist, he would have pointed this out 70 years ago ! JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22your_guys's=22?= (2nd person pl. poss.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I checked to see how y???all???s was doing, vis a vis the google. Your all???s has 278,000 hits; y???all???s 22,900; yall???s 7,790. Might this suggest that ???you??? + ???guys??? is not as far along the lexicalization path as ???yall???? But is on its way? The process may be not dissimilar to the acquisition of the tense system. When my older son was about 3 years old, many years ago, he produced the following utterances: I catched a bee fish. It didn???t bit. It didn???t bits. He then abandoned the linguist problem and finished what he wanted to say. Knowing where to put inflectional morphemes is tricky, either when acquiring your language, or when the language is changing. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to the film.) > > Me, I say "your. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:46:04 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:46:04 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308235918.93169.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think synonymy isn?t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. ?That? and ?which? as well as ?since? and ?because? are ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth attending to. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > > The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > > This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. > > JL > > Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I > have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there > is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way > about other languages too). He looks for meaning > differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he > says exactly what he means. > > For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally > because he really means 'because'. He's also driven > himself a little batty looking for the meaning > difference between 'that' and 'which'. > > I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy > in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what > that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 9 03:52:11 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:52:11 -0500 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: ADS-L'ers interested in science fiction may want to be among the first to know that we have just launched a new version of the OED's Science Fiction site. Here's an announcement we wrote up: For those interested: the Oxford English Dictionary Science Fiction project at http://www.jessesword.com/sf has been redesigned and relaunched. The biggest change is that the OED's database of citations of SF words is now made (mostly) available via the website. The OED does not usually make its work available in this way, but OED has agreed to publicly open up this part of its database to acknowledge the great contribution volunteers have made to this project. That means that if you contribute a cite, it's viewable by everyone. Here's a link with more information about the citations http://www.jessesword.com/sf/about_citations We are also adding quite a few new words: there is an internal list of pending words we have been maintaining and over the next few weeks many of those words will be moved to the main pages. This link: http://www.jessesword.com/sf/newest_adds takes you to a list of the most recent additions. We hope these changes make the site into more of a general resource for the vocabulary of SF, instead of just a catalogue of OED research needs. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 9 03:56:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:56:51 -0500 Subject: Americanized French Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 04:00:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:00:25 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think synonymy isn???t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. ???That??? and ???which??? as well as ???since??? and ???because??? are ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth attending to. Jim Stalker Jonathan Lighter writes: > I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > > The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. > > This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. > > JL > > Ed Keer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I > have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there > is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way > about other languages too). He looks for meaning > differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he > says exactly what he means. > > For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally > because he really means 'because'. He's also driven > himself a little batty looking for the meaning > difference between 'that' and 'which'. > > I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy > in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what > that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? > > > > > __________________________________ > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 03:58:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 22:58:48 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050308235918.93169.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:59 PM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in >the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same >level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical >associations. > Don't we also want to force them to co-occur in the same idiolect? Since I don't use either "gorse" or "furze" in mine, let me bring up another pair which I've heard claimed (probably falsely) are complete synonyms, distinguished by geography: "hella" (on the West Coast) and "wicked" (in the Northeast). These are, by stipulation, synonyms, but if they're not used by the same speakers, they don't challenge the relevant non-synonymy generalization anymore than do "snow" and "neige". Of course it may be claimed that "hella" and "wicked" fail the "identical associations" anyway. But then "furze" sounds somehow friendlier to me than "gorse". Does that count? larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 04:05:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:05:22 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: On that day I became one of those speakers who use "gorse" and "furze" interchangeably. Because of this decision, they are now absolute synonyms. You need not thank me. (I never use "whin.") JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 3:59 PM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in >the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." > >The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical >denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same >level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical >associations. > Don't we also want to force them to co-occur in the same idiolect? Since I don't use either "gorse" or "furze" in mine, let me bring up another pair which I've heard claimed (probably falsely) are complete synonyms, distinguished by geography: "hella" (on the West Coast) and "wicked" (in the Northeast). These are, by stipulation, synonyms, but if they're not used by the same speakers, they don't challenge the relevant non-synonymy generalization anymore than do "snow" and "neige". Of course it may be claimed that "hella" and "wicked" fail the "identical associations" anyway. But then "furze" sounds somehow friendlier to me than "gorse". Does that count? larry --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 04:40:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:40:44 -0500 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <20050308132221.33618.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:22 AM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I >know ! "Grass." > >JL Isn't "pot" sort of like "cool", a slang item that's evolved into the standard lexical item for that particular meaning while still retaining its colloquial status (as opposed to "marijuana")? I guess (although I didn't know it before David's post and my field research) "dope" turns out to be more like the other shorter-lived in-group labels that cycle through. I'm not sure whether "weed" is more like "pot" and "cool", or (more likely?) a formerly moribund item like "dope" that has been revived, for whatever reason. Could be there's a regional flavoring, and perhaps there are movies, TV shows, etc. that influence usage on this. Now I'm wondering which of the categories "grass" is in. For me, "weed" sounds dated (= stuck in a particular past time) in a way that "pot" and "grass" don't, but it's not just my daughter's datum that informs my knowledge of its revival. My son was in a dorm (oops, excuse me, residence hall) during his freshman year (2001) that is officially named Wilmarth Hall, but which is known informally as "Weedmart". L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Jonathan Lighter >> >> >> >>: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >>: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >>: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >>: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >>: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >>: less common on campus. >> >>I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >>nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >>thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >>something that's really in active use *now*. >> >even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if >that's pass? already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old >informant, home on spring break... > >Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). >My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but >she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the >expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up >much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) > >She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, >but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke >weed". > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 05:09:27 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:09:27 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050309040025.73623.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think synonymy isn???t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. > ???That??? and ???which??? as well as ???since??? and ???because??? are > ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of > either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a > sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the > distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for > you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth > attending to. > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." >> >> The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. >> >> This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. >> >> JL >> >> Ed Keer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Synonymy avoidance >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >> have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >> is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >> about other languages too). He looks for meaning >> differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >> says exactly what he means. >> >> For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >> because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >> himself a little batty looking for the meaning >> difference between 'that' and 'which'. >> >> I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >> in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >> that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 05:38:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 00:38:09 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: The OED entry for "ribbit" = 'sound made by a frog' gives a first cite of c1968 from the _Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour_ ("That's right. Ribit! I am. I am a frog"). There's a note from the Smothers Brothers program manager saying that he doubted that this was the first use of the word. In a discussion of "ribbit" on the alt.usage.english newsgroup, Donna Richoux found a reference online to a 1965 _Gilligan's Island_ episode with Mel Blanc voicing the character of "Ribbit the Frog"... ----- http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-599/epid-10123/ Gilligan's Island - Water, Water Everywhere Episode Number 14 First Aired January 2, 1965 Production Code 0714 Writer Tom Waldman & Frank Waldman Director Stanley Z. Cherry Guest Stars: Mel Blanc (as Ribbit the Frog (voice)) ----- --Ben Zimmer From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 07:32:23 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 01:32:23 -0600 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations I had submitted, since they were listed in the text of the page. Any way to find out what I've submitted in the new format, short of pulling up each entry and checking individually? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 9 08:56:33 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 03:56:33 -0500 Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe Message-ID: Some Boston Globe items. "HOODLUMS." Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 9, 1872. p. 4 (1 page): The word is of California origin and was born in the columns of the Alta California, which paper first applied it to a set of roughs who apparently had no fear of man, God 0or the laws of the State; men who cared for nothing, respected nothing, and were generally destitute of all those better elements which distinguish men from beasts. Stock Exchange Slang. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 11, 1894. p. 31 (1 page) LANGUAGE OF THE STAGE.; Technical Terms of a Theater All Defined. Illusions of Modern Dramas and Methods by Which They Are Accomplished. Stage Carpenter and Property Man Are Rare Inventive Geniuses. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1894. p. 35 (1 page) SLAIVG OF THE CIRCUS MAN.; Jargon Which is Unintelligible to All but the Traveling Shewman. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 17, 1894. p. 3 (1 page): The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. They are in a line of business to catch every cant phrase going, and any new word which is only a local invention. To a circus man the manager or the head of any enterprise is always "the main guy," while those in subordinate positions are simply "guys." The tents are "tops" to the circus men, and they are sub divided into the "big top," the "animal top," the "kid top," the "candy top," and so on indefinitely. The side show, where the Circassian girls, fat women and other curiosities termed "freaks" are shown, is termed the "kid show," andthe man with the persuasive voice who seeks to entice people into the "kid show" is known as a "barker." The men who sell peanuts, red lemonade, palm leaf fans, animal and song books and concert tickets are known under the general term of "butchers," while that class of circus followers whose methods are outside the pale of the law, such as pickpockets, gamblers and short-change men, are either "crooks" or "grafters." To get a person's money without giving them any equivalent is "to turn them." A countryman is either a "Rube" (Reuben) or a "Jasper." Thus if a countryman went into a side show and was robbed of $10 there, a circus man would say: "The Rube went against the grafter in the kid top and got turned for 10 cases." From the combinations of the warning cry of "Hey" and the word Rube" comes the circus man's rallying cry of "Hey, Rube!" which is always sounded in times when a fight with outsiders is imminent. The cry of "Hey Rube!" has been in use among circus men for half a century or more, and in the old days it was often followed by bloodshed and even loss of life. Fights between circus men and outsiders are comparitcely rare today; however, and serious trouble seldom occurs, except in spasrsely settled regions of the south and west. The musicians with a circus are known as "wind-jammers," the canvasmen and other laborers are "razorbacks," while a man who drinks to excess is either a "lusher" or a "boozer." These last two expressions are not confined to circus men, but have been used largely and more commonly by them than by any other class. The distance from one town to another is always known as a "jump," and traveling is "jumping." A cricus that travels overland is known as "a red wagon show" in contradistinction to a show that travels by rail. The show ground is always called the "lot," and the dining tent, where most of the circus men get their meals, is the "camp." Horses are always stock," and the horse tents are the "stock pens." Then there are scores of technical terms desribing the work of the different performers, which, while hardly to be classed as slang in themselves, nevertheless add to the picturesqueness of the circus folks vocabulary. Thus, among acrobats there is the "understander," the middleman" and the "topmounter." AMong the riders there are rough riders, pad riders and bareback riders, and among the fun-makers there are "patter" or talking clowns, singing clowns and knock-abouts. A clown used to be called a "cackler" in the English circuses. The three-ring tents with their great size have knocked the aged patterclowns, common in the single rings in Tony Pastor's day, our of business. Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. The knockabout business has come up in consequence and the dude and Reuben clown meander among the audience, representing eccentric spectators not belonging to the show.--(Worcester American.) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:28:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:28:16 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and therefore have never been "revived." The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage enjoyed by the other terms. Having said that, I would emphasize that the death of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:22 AM -0800 3/8/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >What could be more passe' sounding than "pot" and "weed"? Oh, I >know ! "Grass." > >JL Isn't "pot" sort of like "cool", a slang item that's evolved into the standard lexical item for that particular meaning while still retaining its colloquial status (as opposed to "marijuana")? I guess (although I didn't know it before David's post and my field research) "dope" turns out to be more like the other shorter-lived in-group labels that cycle through. I'm not sure whether "weed" is more like "pot" and "cool", or (more likely?) a formerly moribund item like "dope" that has been revived, for whatever reason. Could be there's a regional flavoring, and perhaps there are movies, TV shows, etc. that influence usage on this. Now I'm wondering which of the categories "grass" is in. For me, "weed" sounds dated (= stuck in a particular past time) in a way that "pot" and "grass" don't, but it's not just my daughter's datum that informs my knowledge of its revival. My son was in a dorm (oops, excuse me, residence hall) during his freshman year (2001) that is officially named Wilmarth Hall, but which is known informally as "Weedmart". L >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:30 AM -0500 3/7/05, David Bowie wrote: >>From: Jonathan Lighter >> >> >> >>: As for "dope," one assumes, perhaps less confidently, that "dope" >>: (fool) comes earlier than "dope" (illicit drugs). Furthermore, >>: "dope" (specif. "marijuana") is so common a term nowadays that to >>: refer to the drink in that way would be discordant. "Coke" (the >>: drug) interferes less because expensive, more strongly tabooed, and >>: less common on campus. >> >>I'm not sure that "dope" meaning marijuana is actually all so common >>nowadays--to me it seems like a horribly old-fashioned term, the kind of >>thing you laugh at when you see old shows on Nick at Nite, definitely not >>something that's really in active use *now*. >> >even in the collocation "smoke dope"? I'd be very surprised if >that's pass? already. Wait, let me ask a handy 20-year-old >informant, home on spring break... > >Hey, David's right (well, the sample size is small, but still...). >My informant did come up with the right gloss for "smoke dope", but >she hesitated briefly, and said that her familiarity with the >expression was from TV. (She questioned whether it would come up >much on Nick at Nite--maybe more likely on old SNL reruns.) > >She informs me the unmarked form (well, she didn't call it unmarked, >but...) is "smoke pot", and the standard slang term would be "smoke >weed". > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:35:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:35:57 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration that could result in a slowing of economic growth. Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? Jim Jonathan Lighter writes: > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think synonymy isn??????t as easy as denotative and connotative synonymy. > ??????That?????? and ??????which?????? as well as ??????since?????? and ??????because?????? are > ancient usage shibboleths. To me, that status suggests that the choice of > either is not a semantic, or even a grammatical, choice, but rather a > sociolinguistic choice. The two words may be semantically so close that the > distinction is trivial in most semantic contexts (at the level of a BCH for > you older slang mavens), but the sociolinguistic difference is worth > attending to. > > Jim Stalker > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > >> I was told in junior high that there are "only two true synonyms in the English language," and that they are "gorse" and "furze." >> >> The notion seems to be that "true" synonyms share the identical denotation, are of the same syllabic length, belong to the same level of discourse, and seem to share virtually identical associations. >> >> This is, of course, a somewhat tendentious definition of "true synonyms," but "gorse" and "furze" come a lot closer than most. "Whin" might be considered a third synonym, but it's not as rough-sounding as the others. >> >> JL >> >> Ed Keer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Synonymy avoidance >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The discussion of 'dope' reminded me of this issue. I >> have a friend who is absolutely convinced that there >> is no synonymy in English (I assume he feels this way >> about other languages too). He looks for meaning >> differences everywhere becuase he wants to be sure he >> says exactly what he means. >> >> For example, he won't use 'since', except temporally >> because he really means 'because'. He's also driven >> himself a little batty looking for the meaning >> difference between 'that' and 'which'. >> >> I've heard some linguists believe there is no synonymy >> in langusge, but I have a hard time understanding what >> that means. Can anybody enlighten me on the issue? >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! >> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web >> > > > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University > > > --------------------------------- > Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! > Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:40:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:40:36 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The OED entry for "ribbit" = 'sound made by a frog' gives a first cite of c1968 from the _Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour_ ("That's right. Ribit! I am. I am a frog"). There's a note from the Smothers Brothers program manager saying that he doubted that this was the first use of the word. In a discussion of "ribbit" on the alt.usage.english newsgroup, Donna Richoux found a reference online to a 1965 _Gilligan's Island_ episode with Mel Blanc voicing the character of "Ribbit the Frog"... ----- http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-599/epid-10123/ Gilligan's Island - Water, Water Everywhere Episode Number 14 First Aired January 2, 1965 Production Code 0714 Writer Tom Waldman & Frank Waldman Director Stanley Z. Cherry Guest Stars: Mel Blanc (as Ribbit the Frog (voice)) ----- --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 12:43:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 04:43:55 -0800 Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe Message-ID: Thanks, Barry. Good post. I have no access to ProQuest etc., so anything you unearth on slang is very much appreciated. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Circus Slang (1894); Hoodlum (1872) from Boston Globe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Boston Globe items. "HOODLUMS." Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 9, 1872. p. 4 (1 page): The word is of California origin and was born in the columns of the Alta California, which paper first applied it to a set of roughs who apparently had no fear of man, God 0or the laws of the State; men who cared for nothing, respected nothing, and were generally destitute of all those better elements which distinguish men from beasts. Stock Exchange Slang. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Nov 11, 1894. p. 31 (1 page) LANGUAGE OF THE STAGE.; Technical Terms of a Theater All Defined. Illusions of Modern Dramas and Methods by Which They Are Accomplished. Stage Carpenter and Property Man Are Rare Inventive Geniuses. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 30, 1894. p. 35 (1 page) SLAIVG OF THE CIRCUS MAN.; Jargon Which is Unintelligible to All but the Traveling Shewman. Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Dec 17, 1894. p. 3 (1 page): The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. They are in a line of business to catch every cant phrase going, and any new word which is only a local invention. To a circus man the manager or the head of any enterprise is always "the main guy," while those in subordinate positions are simply "guys." The tents are "tops" to the circus men, and they are sub divided into the "big top," the "animal top," the "kid top," the "candy top," and so on indefinitely. The side show, where the Circassian girls, fat women and other curiosities termed "freaks" are shown, is termed the "kid show," andthe man with the persuasive voice who seeks to entice people into the "kid show" is known as a "barker." The men who sell peanuts, red lemonade, palm leaf fans, animal and song books and concert tickets are known under the general term of "butchers," while that class of circus followers whose methods are outside the pale of the law, such as pickpockets, gamblers and short-change men, are either "crooks" or "grafters." To get a person's money without giving them any equivalent is "to turn them." A countryman is either a "Rube" (Reuben) or a "Jasper." Thus if a countryman went into a side show and was robbed of $10 there, a circus man would say: "The Rube went against the grafter in the kid top and got turned for 10 cases." From the combinations of the warning cry of "Hey" and the word Rube" comes the circus man's rallying cry of "Hey, Rube!" which is always sounded in times when a fight with outsiders is imminent. The cry of "Hey Rube!" has been in use among circus men for half a century or more, and in the old days it was often followed by bloodshed and even loss of life. Fights between circus men and outsiders are comparitcely rare today; however, and serious trouble seldom occurs, except in spasrsely settled regions of the south and west. The musicians with a circus are known as "wind-jammers," the canvasmen and other laborers are "razorbacks," while a man who drinks to excess is either a "lusher" or a "boozer." These last two expressions are not confined to circus men, but have been used largely and more commonly by them than by any other class. The distance from one town to another is always known as a "jump," and traveling is "jumping." A cricus that travels overland is known as "a red wagon show" in contradistinction to a show that travels by rail. The show ground is always called the "lot," and the dining tent, where most of the circus men get their meals, is the "camp." Horses are always stock," and the horse tents are the "stock pens." Then there are scores of technical terms desribing the work of the different performers, which, while hardly to be classed as slang in themselves, nevertheless add to the picturesqueness of the circus folks vocabulary. Thus, among acrobats there is the "understander," the middleman" and the "topmounter." AMong the riders there are rough riders, pad riders and bareback riders, and among the fun-makers there are "patter" or talking clowns, singing clowns and knock-abouts. A clown used to be called a "cackler" in the English circuses. The three-ring tents with their great size have knocked the aged patterclowns, common in the single rings in Tony Pastor's day, our of business. Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. The knockabout business has come up in consequence and the dude and Reuben clown meander among the audience, representing eccentric spectators not belonging to the show.--(Worcester American.) --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 9 13:01:31 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 08:01:31 -0500 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3E2C@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 01:32:23AM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations > I had submitted, since they were listed in the text of the > page. Any way to find out what I've submitted in the new > format, short of pulling up each entry and checking > individually? Wait a few days, when I add search capabilities to the Comment field? Sorry, it was too cumbersome to list the entire content of everything. JTS From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Mar 9 14:23:19 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:23:19 -0500 Subject: track ways we use language? In-Reply-To: <200503081757318.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: hey, this might be interesting . . . click on http://wordcount.org/main.php WordCount? is an interactive presentation of the 86,800 most frequently used English words. WordCount tracks the way we use language. QueryCount? tracks the way we use WordCount. best, karen ellis <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 14:26:45 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 06:26:45 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: <20050309122816.85620.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about "bush"? I learned this word for MJ from a man who picked up the word (along with "bushhead") while in the Army between WWI and WWII. It seems with the current president, this term would naturally revive. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary > persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," > and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and > therefore have never been "revived." > > The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites > of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly > moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" > did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage > enjoyed by the other terms. > > Having said that, I would emphasize that the death > of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. > > JL James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Mar 9 14:27:11 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:27:11 -0500 Subject: DOPE as a college student slang term, 1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Laurence Horn > At 9:42 AM -0500 3/8/05, David Bowie wrote: >>*But*--why in the world would such homonymy create discord? I mean, if >>two words have closely related but different meanings, i can see how >>they'd interfere ('cleave' and 'cleave', to take an extreme example, or >>even 'dope' /soft drink/ and 'dope' /drugs/, since they're both >>consumables), but language seems to do fine with hononyms that mean very >>different things (as in 'lead' /give direction/ and 'lead' /metal/, > maybe "cape" (promontory vs. cloak) is a better example, since the > two "lead"s are only homographs, not homonyms Sorry, you're right, i messed up--i got so carried away with everything else being homographic that i wrote 'lead' /give direction/ when i *should* have written 'led' /gave direction/, which is homophonic but not homographic with 'lead' /metal/. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Mar 9 14:33:12 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:33:12 -0500 Subject: Americanized French In-Reply-To: <422E7403.1090800@rcn.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > Just heard Martin Short pronounce "soupcon" as "soop-sone" on L&W:SUV. > Well, given that the character was a pretentious poseur from Montreal, I wouldn't read too much into that. AF -- Alice Faber From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 15:35:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 07:35:00 -0800 Subject: COKE in the M aryland In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: So "MJ" is alive and well too. Google turns up a handful of textual exx. of "bush," marijuana, some of them punning the Prez's name. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: COKE in the M aryland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about "bush"? I learned this word for MJ from a man who picked up the word (along with "bushhead") while in the Army between WWI and WWII. It seems with the current president, this term would naturally revive. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My ongoing monitoring of the slang vocabulary > persuades me that "dope," "weed," "pot," "grass," > and "reefer," and even "mary jane" never "died," and > therefore have never been "revived." > > The synonymous "tea" and "gage," however, favorites > of jazz musicians in the '40s, are almost certainly > moribund. One difference is that "tea" and "gage" > did not receive the wide and repeated media coverage > enjoyed by the other terms. > > Having said that, I would emphasize that the death > of slang terms is often highly exaggerated. > > JL James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 15:53:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:53:37 -0600 Subject: Updates to OED Science Fiction page Message-ID: Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 01:32:23AM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: > > > > The old page would let me search (via CTRL-F) for citations I had > > submitted, since they were listed in the text of the page. > Any way to > > find out what I've submitted in the new format, short of pulling up > > each entry and checking individually? > > Wait a few days, when I add search capabilities to the Comment field? > > Sorry, it was too cumbersome to list the entire content of everything. > > JTS > No need to apologize. The new pages offer an improved look and more info available. Searching the comments field would make it even better. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 15:58:04 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 09:58:04 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Not to mention that switching would require that the National Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready to report to field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the > BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. > > JL > > James C Stalker wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > Jim > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > JL > > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 16:18:05 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:18:05 -0600 Subject: astroturf Message-ID: The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National League is now free of artificial grass: http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php "As you know, "Astroturf" entered the language as a generic term for all artificial playing surfaces. It used to rile Dad tremendously when cheaper, inferior quality imitiations of Astroturf were installed in other stadiums and were commonly called "astroturf". He hated to see the product get a black eye in public relations when football and baseball players would injure themselves, or the ball would bounce funny, and blame the "astroturf" surface. "It's that lousy Polyturf causing that trouble, damn it, not Astroturf!" Not sure who made Polyturf -- possibly arch-rival DuPont (the name was almost swear-word in our house during Dad's Monsanto days....)" From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 16:35:51 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:35:51 -0600 Subject: Doctor Demento Message-ID: Slangophiles and others may be interested that the archives of the Dr. Demento radio show are going online: http://www.thedoctordementoshow.com/index.php From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Wed Mar 9 17:05:18 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:05:18 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <200503090818347.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an aggregator. Karen Ellis >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National >League is now free of artificial grass: > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> The Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/ National Children's Folksong Repository http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/ Hot List of Schools Online and Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/ 7 Hot Site Awards New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink, USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<> From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 17:26:13 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:26:13 -0600 Subject: correction Re: astroturf Message-ID: ????? I don't understand the distinction. Looks like a blog, walks like a blog, quacks like a blog . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Educational > CyberPlayGround > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:05 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: correction Re: astroturf > > > This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an > aggregator. > > Karen Ellis > > >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National > >League is now free of artificial grass: > > > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 18:46:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:46:18 -0600 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project Message-ID: Malcom's stuff first, then Jeff's below that. SF Fandom > > fannish (not in OED; OED SF database has 1948) "BOY HOWDY!' > W. Leslie Rawlings, The Atlanta Constitution, Apr 26, 1919; > pg. 12/4 "There's nobody on earth who can appeal to the > American people more than a fan, be he fannish on baseball, > other sports, wars or trying to get a peace treaty signed, > and Europe cuddled into submission inside of a year." > > fan magazine (OED 1928) > "Playwrights Come Through" The Washington Post; Jul 28, 1918; > pg. TA3/4 "It is probable that the book which will run from > 25,000 to 40,000 words, will be put out by a New York > publishing house, and after its appearance this fall, will > run as a serial in one of the "fan" magazines. " > > "The Lady Who Jilted Chaplin" Appleton [Wisconsin] Post > Crescent 1923-03-03 p. 3/4 "This entertaining "fan" magazine > will be ready next week." > > "On the Silver Screen" [Lincoln] Nebraska State Journal | > 1922-09-03 p. 25/2 "Inasmuch as Valentino is unquestionably > the film idol of 1922, getting about three-fourths of the fan > magazine mail, he may not be so far wrong in sitting down and > making comparisons." > > > fan club (OED 1941) > "ARE FANATICS ON FIRES." Chicago Daily Tribune; Oct 4, 1896; > pg. 29/3 "He hasn't pulled any more boxes, but his admiration > remains unchanged, and he is now a member of Truck No. 6's > "Fan club" over on Franklin street." > [same article] > "There is a "First Battalion Fan club" which is composed of a > number of wealthy men, admirer's of the fireman's life." > > fan base (OED 1979) > "This Morning: Soccer Club Owners Should Heed the Past" > Kenneth Denlinger The Washington Post; Jun 30, 1975; pg. D1/5 > "Many teams went to smaller fields -- the Diplomats to W.T. > Woodson High -- and patiently waited for their fan-base to increase." > > fan mail (OED 1924) > "Lights and Shadows" The Washington Post; Oct 24, 1920; pg. 49/6 > "Catherine Holly, who handles the fan mail, has called for additional interpreters." SF Criticism > > high fantasy (not in OED; OED SF project has 1973) > "Chantecler." The [London] Times, Tuesday, Feb 08, 1910; pg. > 11; col D "It is a work full of literary delights; of high > fantasy; of extraordinary virtuosity in versification ("de > l'acrobatisme!" was the comment of one veteran spectator in > my hearing); not seldom tending to the "showy" and > rhetorical; inspired by a genuine love and knowledge of > Nature, even in her most amusing secret places; fresh, > ingenious, and "amusing" as a spectacle; bristling with > literary satire, some of it rather recondite -- altogether an > extraordinary workd that none other than Rostand could have > imagined -- but too plainly deficient in the "body," the > conflict of wills, the continuous and cumulative interest of > action that are essential for an acted play." > > "GIRAUDOUX 'CHAILLOT' PRESENTED IN PARIS" By LANSING WARREN > New York Times; Dec 20, 1945; pg. 17/4 "But the imagination, > subtlety and high fantasy of the author had full rein in > flights which Giraudoux never surpassed." > > "Tales from Times Square" Dorothy Kilgallen, Lowell > [Massachusetts] Sun 1942-09-15 p. 49/1 "Lindsay and Crouse > are readying "Strip For Action," involving a burlesque troupe > marooned in an army camp (high fantasy since no burlesque > show has ever played an army camp) and the Shuberts are > preparing a legitmate vehicle for the reigning queen of the > stripsie-pipsies, Margie Hart." > > "The Play's The Thing" Chaffee Castleton [Van Nuys > California] Valley News | 1956-07-31 p. 26/4 "Everything > Disney does is either high fantasy or bears the stamp of > complete authenticity." > > post-apocalypse (adj.) (OED does not list, but has in a quote > from 1975 for "Warholian"; OED SF Project has 1976) "NOVELS" > Reviewed by James R. Frakes The Washington Post Book World > Oct 18, 1970; pg. 2/3 "The time is post-apocalypse; the > setting, the flats west of the city, a kind of terminal > chessboard where every space must be staked out." > > > dark fantasy (OED does not have; OED SF project has 1973) > "THE PLAY" By J. BROOKS ATKINSON. New York Times, Oct 26, > 1927; pg. 26/2 "Lord Dunsany has tinted it with the strange, > dark fantasy that distinguishes all his work." > > Note that the radio program "Dark Fantasy" is listed in the > radio listings in the Syracuse Herald Journal, June 12, 1942; > April 17, 1942; April 24, 1942; Charleroi [Pennsylvania] Mail > for November 14, 1941; December 05, 194; Reno Evening Gazette > May 21, 1942; in assorted Chicago Herald Tribune and NYTimes > listings from Nov 21, 1941 through Jun 12, 1942. > > science-fictive (OED SF Project has 1993; term is in OED, but > no cites, dates, quotes are given) "In Search Of the Self" By > ELIZABETH JANEWAY New York Times Book Review Oct 28, 1956; > section 7, p. 7/2 "Science-fictive effects give this weird > tale a speciously contemporary aspect, but what M.Vercors > wishes to establish is the old position that any > incommunicable personal experience is valueless just because > it is incommunicable." > > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; > pg. 19/5 "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, > shimmering with emerald-gold and silver fin." > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, 1937; > p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] > > science-fictiony > Tomorrow's Railroads in the Sky > RALPH STEIN > Los Angeles Times This Week Magazine; Feb 3, 1963; pg. 10/3 > "Perhaps, to get science-fictiony, the solution will be to > run monorails in cities high in the air with their tracks > leaping from the top of one skyscraper to the next, or even > through some of the higher ones since buildings > aren't all the same height." > > "Recommended New Titles" New York Times Book Review; Sep 4, > 1966; pg. 16/1 "Roar Lion Roar. Irvin Faust. (Avon, 60 > cents.) Ten urban fantasies that have aroused much critical > enthusiasm." > From pds at VISI.COM Wed Mar 9 20:22:14 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050309132949.3AE5EA46B@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my lifetime. It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" or something similar. --Tom Kysilko From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:33:27 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:33:27 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: Regarding "quack": I believe a duck in Chaucer's Parlement of Foules at one point intones a "quek." I'm not sure if the sound- change laws would render that as "quack" in modern English, but it sounds pretty close. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 9 Mar 2005, at 14:22, Tom Kysilko wrote: > Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > > > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > > What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to > the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I > learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". > "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my > lifetime. > > It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog > noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" > or something similar. > > --Tom Kysilko From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:43:19 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:43:19 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" Message-ID: Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 9 20:52:01 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the obvious association with "kneedeep"). dInIs Dennis >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Mar 9 20:53:13 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:53:13 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" Message-ID: You've got 14th century for quack as a verb, so you must have had something from this period. In any case, it does appear that quack is not suspiciously new - unlike oink and, especially, ribbet, which really seems to have come from nowhere. I don't recall ever hearing ribbet as a child in the sixties, but it was dominant by the late seventies. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Joanne M. Despres Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Middle English "quek" Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 9 20:58:59 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:58:59 -0600 Subject: psywar Message-ID: psywar OED has 1954 "Ancient Military Art of 'PW' Having Big Revival" By John G. Norris The Washington Post; Jul 8, 1951; pg. B3/2 "Air Force officers say its chief aim is to induce qualified civilians to volunteer for "Psywar" duty." " 'Psywar' Battle with Paper Weapons," New York Times; Nov 29, 1953; pg. SM78/2; quote from SM79/1 "Recently, in Exercise Falcon at Ft. Bragg, N. C. -- the "psywar" center for the Army -- leaflet techniques were tested by troops "defending" the U. S. and an unknown "agressor". " From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 9 20:58:01 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:58:01 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B82@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Oops, my mistake: "quek" and "quack" ARE treated as different words by the OED, which enters "quek" as an interjection with an example from the Parliament of Fowls (defining it, however, as the sound made by a goose). Joanne From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:42:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:42:13 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >obvious association with "kneedeep"). Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? ----- Atlanta Constitution, Feb 8, 1880, p. 2/3 Uncle Remus's Folk-Lore: Brer Fox and the Deceitful Frogs. XIV. "Den n'er Frog holler out: "'Knee deep! Knee deep!'" ----- Full text of the story here: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/Harris2/ch14.html And here is the Disneyfied rendition from _Song of the South_ (1946): ----- http://www.songofthesouth.net/movie/script/reel-1section-a.html MCU of Tempy and Johnny over Sally's shoulder. Tempy: "GRACIOUS GOODNESS, JOHNNY... WE'S ALMOST DAR! LISSEN! YOU AIN'T NEVER HEER'D NO FROGS LIKE DEM IN ATLANTA." John o.s.: "YOU KNOW WHAT THEY'RE SAYING?" CUT TO: MCU of Sally and John. John: "KNEE-DEEP! KNEE-DEEP!" CUT TO: ECU of Johnny. Johnny: "HONEST!" John: "HONEST." Johnny: "KNEE-DEEP! KNEE-DEEP!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:56:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:56:19 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:42:13 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:52:01 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >>obvious association with "kneedeep"). > >Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? > >----- >Atlanta Constitution, Feb 8, 1880, p. 2/3 >Uncle Remus's Folk-Lore: Brer Fox and the Deceitful Frogs. XIV. >"Den n'er Frog holler out: >"'Knee deep! Knee deep!'" >----- > >Full text of the story here: >http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/Harris2/ch14.html Making of America takes it all the way back to 1832, though nothing as canonical as the Uncle Remus tale... ----- http://tinyurl.com/3sen7 New-England magazine, January 1832, p. 40 The woods of Virginia are so filled with the sounds of various birds and tree-frogs, (those delicate sylvans, that have a note clearer than a bird) that an old traveler calls it "a land of enchantment," where so many sweet sounds are emited by invisible songsters; he may, however, have been a little deluded by his admiration, as he affirms that some frogs "emit a most tremendous roar, louder than the bellowing of a bull, and with a striking resemblance to articulate words, as hogshead! tobacco! knee deep! ancle deep! deeper and deeper! Piankitank!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Mar 9 21:57:01 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:57:01 -0500 Subject: shindig In-Reply-To: <20050309050117.D4DA2B252D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Ben Zimmer writes: >>>>> OED2 has an 1871 cite from Bret Harte for the 'country dance' sense. (There's an obsolete sense, 'a blow on the shins', attested in 1859.) But the American Periodical Series takes it back at least to 1848: <<<<< I would guess that the 'dance event' sense originated as a joking use of the 'blow to the shin' sense. It certainly describes my dancing style... -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:28:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:28:53 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I see the OED lacks "arf" entirely, though "bow-wow" (more or less) goes back to _The Tempest_ and beyond. JL Tom Kysilko wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Tom Kysilko Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my lifetime. It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" or something similar. --Tom Kysilko --------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:32:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:32:53 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, ME "quek" became EModE "queck" and then "quack" - but OED has these as verbs only. Curious. JL "Joanne M. Despres" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joanne M. Despres" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding "quack": I believe a duck in Chaucer's Parlement of Foules at one point intones a "quek." I'm not sure if the sound- change laws would render that as "quack" in modern English, but it sounds pretty close. Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster On 9 Mar 2005, at 14:22, Tom Kysilko wrote: > Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > > > The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still > > surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > > What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to > the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I > learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". > "Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my > lifetime. > > It might be interesting to compare the various English translations of the frog > noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" > or something similar. > > --Tom Kysilko __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 9 22:40:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 14:40:37 -0800 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered aquatic "friends": http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Middle English "quek" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You've got 14th century for quack as a verb, so you must have had something from this period. In any case, it does appear that quack is not suspiciously new - unlike oink and, especially, ribbet, which really seems to have come from nowhere. I don't recall ever hearing ribbet as a child in the sixties, but it was dominant by the late seventies. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Joanne M. Despres Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 3:43 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Middle English "quek" Okay, here's the cite: The goos, the cokkow, and the doke also So cryede, "Kek kek! Kokkow! quek quek!" hye, That thourgh myne eres the noyse wente tho. Parliament of Fowls 498-500 Hm, looks like we missed it, too -- our date for "quack" is 1798. Joanne __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 00:58:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:58:09 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <20050309224037.48978.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:40 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered >aquatic "friends": > >http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March > >JL > Jon, Is that URL right, with the dashes and all? I couldn't get it to open. Looks like important research I don't want to miss out on. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 00:59:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 19:59:38 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1110399734.422f5af6dc907@my.visi.com> Message-ID: At 2:22 PM -0600 3/9/05, Tom Kysilko wrote: >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the translator. larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 01:03:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:03:22 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to the literature available when and where I was a child, bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs "chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." "Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. However, given that spacing between words was not the usual practice in antiquity, "bre ke ke kex ko ax ko ax" or any one of several other possible transliterations would be just as acceptable, IMO. But, as to how this croak might be translated, I have no idea. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:05:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:05:01 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > translator. i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:13:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:13:54 -0800 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Middle English "quek" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:40 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This URL provides a tuneful take on the dark side of our feathered >aquatic "friends": > >http://www.harpercollins.com-hc-images-om-JB-SinisterDucks-March > >JL > Jon, Is that URL right, with the dashes and all? I couldn't get it to open. Looks like important research I don't want to miss out on. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:15:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:15:46 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:03 PM -0500 3/9/05, Wilson Gray wrote: > >"Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's >frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. Come to think of it, that croaks truer than my earlier recollection. I yield to Wilson's elephantine memory for Aristophanese frog-talk. L From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 10 01:20:37 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:20:37 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <1b0929b4542f3bc0cb8ba2b8126ccb8c@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 05:05:01PM -0800, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > >I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > >translator. > > i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. Yes, that's right. The transliteration from the Perseus edition is: "brekekekex koax koax". That version might be somewhere near: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0031;layout=;query=card%3D%238;loc=185 , but their "please use this form to link to the page" widget is not working properly. Anyway, for those not familiar with the Perseus project, it's a fantastic thing--Latin and Greek texts with every word parsed and linked to dictionaries, to statistical summaries of the word's use in various text, etc. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:22:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:22:20 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. All I can dredge up from my frog-deprived urban existence is a creaking baritonal "CROOOOOAK!!" The possibility that "ribbit" is the result of an unreported language shift within the frog community has not been addressed. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the literature available when and where I was a child, bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs "chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." "Brekekekex koax koax" is a transliteration of what Aristophanes's frogs said in the textbook that I used for the study of Greek. However, given that spacing between words was not the usual practice in antiquity, "bre ke ke kex ko ax ko ax" or any one of several other possible transliterations would be just as acceptable, IMO. But, as to how this croak might be translated, I have no idea. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Quoting Jonathan Lighter : > >> The late appearance of "ribbit" may be compared with the earlier, but still >> surprisingly recent, appearance of "quack," "honk," and "oink." > >What interests me is that "ribbit" has attained this status as *the* answer to >the question "What does a frog say?" so recently. When I was a child, I >learned from my mother and Captain Kangaroo that froggies went "garump". >"Greedeep" (or some spelling thereof) has also had considerable currency in my >lifetime. > >It might be interesting to compare the various English translations >of the frog >noise in Aristophanes, THE FROGS. I believe Dudley Fitts used "Brekeke kesh" >or something similar. > >--Tom Kysilko --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 01:25:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 17:25:50 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, the "koaxial" version is what I remember as well. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 9, 2005, at 4:59 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I recall it as "Brekekekex brekex brekex", but I can't recall the > translator. i recall it as "Brekekekekex koax koax". memory is a strange thing. arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:51:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:51:53 -0500 Subject: Middle English "quek" In-Reply-To: <20050310011354.86394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > And worth waiting for it was--quite the muckraking expos?. Brekekekekex indeed. L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 01:59:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:59:16 -0500 Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... In-Reply-To: <20050310011354.86394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:13 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > On an eerily related note, here's some real-life research that tends to support the message underlying the above ditty: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1432991,00.html L From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Thu Mar 10 02:27:39 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:27:39 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf Message-ID: A website is not a blog. you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto their website. Simply, It's about programming code. Learn how to make websites then you'll understand. visit the Educational CyberPlayGround http://www.edu-cyberpg.com Interent Area http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Internet/Home_Internet.html Very Interesting Sites Find How to Build Web Sites. best, karen At 12:26 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: correction Re: astroturf >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >????? > >I don't understand the distinction. Looks like a blog, walks like a >blog, quacks like a blog . . . > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Educational > > CyberPlayGround > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:05 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: correction Re: astroturf > > > > > > This link is not a blog, this is a URL of a website using an > > aggregator. > > > > Karen Ellis > > > > >The blog "Baseball Musings" commented on the fact that the National > > >League is now free of artificial grass: > > > > > >http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/008519.php > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 02:31:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:31:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis Message-ID: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis (www.doubletongued.org) been quoted all over. Congratulations!...I discussed "gurgitator" and "short eats" (two recent Double-Tongued" food entries) here before...Remember why it loses money: MTA is ATM spelled backwards. http://www.nypress.com/18/10/pagetwo/newshole4.cfm PULITZER PRIZE FOR MATH The debate continues?who's stupider, New York Post readers or New York Post reporters? We're getting close to a draw with "Get a Fare Deal," the amazingly sad story published in the paper's March 2 edition. At first, it seemed like we had to be misreading the chart at the top of the article. What are the odds that any subway commuter who takes 12 rides a month would need a newspaper article to grasp that they don't need to buy a $76 monthly MetroCard? As it turns out, the Post assumes their readers are pretty damn moronic. Transit reporter Clemente Lisi takes the trouble to break things down even further for those who can't quite master simple multiplication. A commuter who takes 24 rides a month is better off buying two $20 MetroCards. A commuter who takes 42 rides a month is better off buying three $20 cards and a $10 card. And if the commuter has three apples and a murderous hoodlum takes two after putting a bullet in the commuter's head?well, we probably won't read about it in the Post unless the commuter was an aspiring white actress. Let's not give Lisi too much credit for all this deep thinking, though. As it turns out, Lisi is really just reprinting useless info that blogger Grant Barrett had put up on his website. Lisi claims that Barrett "crunched the numbers." If Barrett had posted that you can get four copies of the Post for a dollar in Manhattan, then Lisi would have probably claimed that Barrett "did the research." Meanwhile, we remain convinced that it's a good investment to spend $3.95 for a copy of SCREW to wrap around that Post you buy at the newsstand. Otherwise, people will think you're a cretin. ?J.R. Taylor (GOOGLE) Grant Barrett has updated his excellent MTA fare analysis document ... $, Become a micropatron today. ... www.kottke.org/remainder/05/03/7738.html - 12k - Mar 8, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 02:33:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:33:14 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: Wilson Gray: >According to the literature available when and where I was a child, >bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs >"chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." Jonathan Lighter: >Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was >unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. > >I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. "Jug o' rum" goes back to 1847 on the American Periodical Series: ----- _The Cultivator_, Nov. 1847; Vol. 4, Iss. 11; p. 353, col. 2 Even the frogs sometimes seem to indulge a little in humorous or sarcastic ditties, for one sings out, "Jug o' rum! jug o rum! jug o' dhrum!"--while another answers--"Paddy got dhroonk, got dhroonk, 'oonk 'nk!" ----- That appears in a piece entitled "Rural Sounds" that has some truly bizarre onamatopoetic interpretations. Take this song of the "Bob o'link", supplied by "a southern writer": "Bobby Lincoln--look Mary Lincoln--velvet pantaloons and summer jacket, ho!--Bobby Lincoln won't let Mary Lincoln gad about alone over clover top, dock-weed, and apple tree--nor shall she marry Michael Mangel Wurtzel!" The reader also learns of a doctor who hears the robin's song as "Kill 'em! kill 'em! cure 'em! cure 'em! give 'em physic, physic, physic!", and a tailor who hears the sparrow's song as "Prick yer fin-ger, suck it, suck it well!" --Ben Zimmer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 02:43:53 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:43:53 -0500 Subject: OT: Grant Barrett's MTA analysis In-Reply-To: <7AA2FB91.3ADCCCA7.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: Yeah, there's nothing more remarkable than a little high school math to get your name in the New York Post. I was hoping for exclamation marks in the headline. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:31, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Grant Barrett's MTA analysis (www.doubletongued.org) been quoted all > over. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 02:59:26 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 21:59:26 -0500 Subject: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050309212730.01e00018@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:27, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website > address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto > their website. I see no evidence that this is true. The software being used is Moveable Type, well-known blogging software. The content appears to be unique: I find no other instances of select phrases when searching Google, Technorati, or Feedster. The narrative thread in the posts is also consistent, which would not be the case if they were the product of an aggregator. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 03:18:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:18:15 -0500 Subject: "Perfect Storm" In-Reply-To: <200503090352.j293qDdg026614@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know, did the term "perfect storm" originate with Sebastian Junger's 1997 book with that title? Or was Junger employing a preexisting term? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 04:18:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:18:07 -0500 Subject: Do-Rag (1966) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not very long after WWII, circa 1947, "A New Process for Straightening Hair" (This "New Process" had no brand name) was introduced into the barbershops in the black neighborhoods of St. Louis. Since I've never worn my own hair straightened, I had no more interest in the New Process than I had in the old process that is so lovingly described in the "Autobiography of Malcolm X." So, I have no idea as to whether the "New Process" originated in St. Louis or spread there from somewhere else. In any case, the "New Process" was heavily advertised on the four hours a day of black radio then available in St. Louis and and in the local black newspapers, not to mention in the shop windows of the barbershops themselves. After a couple or three months or so, the conk and its handmaidens, "Congolene Jelly" and "Du-Konk Pomade" were dead, not to mention the "gas job," which was accomplished by running a heated straightening comb through one's hair, resulting in a sort of poor man's conk. The "New Process" took as much time as it took for a woman's trip to the hairdresser and likewise involved the use of one of those three-quarter-egg-shaped hairdryers. It also cost heavy dues, as much as $5.00, whereas a regular haircut cost from 50 to 75 cents. In other words, anybody who could afford the New Process couldn't possibly be indigent. That being the case, I assume that the marine quoted was a racist. These days, a process costs in the neighborhood of a hundred dollars. One part of the New Process involved a long time sitting around waiting for the processing chemicals to do their work. Since the actual styling of the patron's hair was done partially while the chemicals were still doing their work, the patron's hair was put up in rollers and/or curlers and the hair-do wrapped in a bandanna tied exactly as Rosie the Riveter's, except that it was a more manly black or navy in color. This bandanna was, of course, the "hair-do rag." Most readers here are probably already aware of this, but BE is a dialect in which "rag" means not only rag, but any kind of relatively small, useful piece of cloth such as a face rag, a head rag = a facecloth, a bandanna. In my youth, stocking caps were made of actual stockings and were used to keep a man's hair in place while he slept. These were never worn outside. It would have been like appearing in public in just underwear. But men and youths did wear either handkerchiefs or bandannas as head rags outside and they were considered quite stylish for casual wear. These were tied around and over one's head pirate-style or Aunt-Jemima style and antedated the (hair-)do rag by a few years. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Do-Rag (1966) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >William Safire had never heard of a "do rag" before? Earliest use is >in the New York Times? > >I'll never get credit for this (as usual), but here goes. > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html >I visited a high school in Virginia recently that had this sign on >the door: ''Please remove bandannas, skullcaps and do-rags'' or any >other clothing that violated the district's dress policy. > >''For the uninitiated,'' writes Carrie Mason-Draffen in Newsday, >''do-rag is essentially a bandanna that African-American women or >men like to don . . . eminently practical, eminently dress-down . . >. but some young African-American men are masters at transforming >the scarves, or some offshoots, into fashion statements.'' She notes >that ''the symbol of World War II working women, Rosie the Riveter, >was depicted in posters with her locks peeking out of a do-rag.'' > >Earliest use was in an April 1968 Times article from Saigon by >Thomas Johnson quoting a marine recalling indigent blacks in San >Francisco ''with slicked-down hair and 'do-rags.''' What's the >metaphoric root? What does a do-rag do, other than upset school >officials from France to Virginia? My speculation: a rag is a piece >of cloth, often discarded or used for cleaning and dusting; >garment-industry people often mock their business as the rag trade. >The do comes from hairdo, with the do meaning ''style.'' Thus: a >scrap of material worn atop the hairdo is a do-rag. If proved >mistaken, I will wear one to the office for a week, accompanied by a >paronomastic singer-lyricist who calls himself Rapunzel. > > >(JSTOR) >Take Care of Business >Marvin X >The Drama Review: TDR > Vol. 12, No. 4, Black Theatre (Summer, >1968), pp. 85-92 >Pg. 85: >WES is dressed in the style of a "do rag" nationalist; JOE as a >typical college student. > > >(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) >17 August 1966, Newark (Ohio) Advocate, pg. 39, col. 2: >Young called himself the "do-rag" man, referring to a bandana, or >do-rag, worn around the head after applying a hair preparation. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 04:29:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 23:29:05 -0500 Subject: "Perfect Storm" Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:18:15 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Does anyone know, did the term "perfect storm" originate with Sebastian >Junger's 1997 book with that title? Or was Junger employing a preexisting >term? Junger was quoting the meteorologist Bob Case. Whether Case came up with the term himself, I don't know. ----- http://www.usatoday.com/weather/movies/ps/moreperfect.htm USA Today Weather 07/04/00- Updated 01:41 PM ET [...] The meteorologist quoted in Junger's book is having his own second thoughts. Bob Case of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration was described watching satellite images of a Canadian high-pressure system, a major low-pressure system in the North Atlantic and Hurricane Grace to the south. ''Meteorologists see perfection in strange things and the meshing of three completely independent weather systems to form a hundred-year event is one of them,'' Junger wrote. ''My God, thought Case, this is the perfect storm.'' Case, now retired, told the Times from his Pennsylvania home that he meant to say a perfect set of circumstances had aligned to make the mid-Atlantic storm intense and long-lasting. ''Now, unfortunately, the combination of the book and especially the movie have made it the greatest storm, and that's not the case,'' said Case. ---- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 10 06:10:22 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050308185850.0301b5b0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: I looked around for the etymology of "cootie". I didn't find it. But I found something else. Note that the earliest instance of "hootchie-cootchie" [dance] in HDAS has the following, dated 1895: <>. Forms like "coochy-coochy" and "couchee-couchee" coexisted with forms like "hoochy-coochy" for some time. If "coochy-coochy" or so was ancestral, maybe the change of the initial /k/ to /h/ was influenced by an older "Hoochy Coochy" (not a dance) cited in HDAS from 1890. ---------- _Los Angeles Times_, 26 May 1901: p. 11: <> ---------- The spelling "kutchy-kutchy" brings to mind the "coochy-coochy-coo" which is spoken to a baby, and which appeared in an 1884 song title (sheet music reproduced at the LOC "American Memory" site) "Kutchy! Kutchy! Little Baby!" (a song about a baby, not about a cooch dancer). ---------- _Atlanta Constitution_, 4 Nov. 1885: p. 4: <> ---------- I presume "kutchy" here is pronounced /kUtSi/ or /kutSi/. Here is the same spelling used much later. ---------- _Indiana Evening Gazette_ (Indiana PA), 25 Jan. 1962: p. 6: <> ---------- The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta [dance]" (with variants). ---------- _Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: <> ---------- _New York Times_, 7 May 1893: p. 13: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 13 Aug. 1893: p. 28: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 20 Aug. 1893: p. 29: [advertisement] <> ---------- _Washington Post_, 5 Dec. 1894: p. 6: <> ---------- _Chicago Daily Tribune_, 13 Jan. 1895: p. 36: [advertisement] <> ---------- _Davenport Daily Republican_ (Davenport IA), 24 Oct. 1895: p. 1: <> ---------- But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" (i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. ---------- _Davenport Tribune_ (Davenport IA), 14 Feb. 1894: p. 3(?): <> ---------- _Coshocton Daily Age_ (Coshocton OH), 16 Nov. 1900: p. 1: <> ---------- I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it is not available to me. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 10 07:25:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 02:25:06 -0500 Subject: angle of the eye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Thomas Paikeday >Subject: angle of the eye >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This seems common in literature about glaucoma - 4,250 hits in Google. It >refers to the filtration or drainage angle where the cornea attaches to the >iris. OED (2002) and the other dictionaries I checked don't have an entry >for the phrase, nor is it defined under "angle." A full-text search shows >nine citations. See esp. the 1911 cite under "iridial," adj. > >T. M. Paikeday >www.paikeday.net As one who has glaucoma, I can assure you that the "angle of the eye" really is simply the angle formed by the intersection of the iris and the cornea. The width of this angle defines whether one has open-angle glaucoma or angle-closure glaucoma. Otherwise, the angle of the eye is of no consequence. FWIW, I have open-angle glaucoma. -Wilson Gray From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 08:24:11 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 03:24:11 -0500 Subject: "Yours till Niagara Falls" (1907) Message-ID: YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS--1,090 Google hits, 16 Google Groups hits I was going through the Journal of The Ohio Folklore Society today. This seemed like one of the most popular of these constructions. Spring 1969, Journal of the Ohio Folklore SOciety, vol. IV, no. 1 Pg. 51: _NOTES AND QUERIES_ _YOURS TILL THE COWS COME HOME_ Pg. 53: Yours till you see the salad dressing. (...) Yours till the door steps. Yours till the kitchen sinks. Yours till the horse flies. Yours till the bed springs. Yours till the barn dances. Yours till the cake walks. (...) Yours till Niagara Falls. Yours till the board walks. Yours till the side walks. (...) Yours till the powder puffs. Pg. 54: Yours till the sun sets. Yours till the cows get feathers. Yours till the pigs get feathers. Yours till the onions cry. Yours till the cows come home. Yours till the chickens stop laying eggs. (...) Yours till Red's hair turns black. Yours till you sit hearing sad stories. Pg. 55: Yours till you marry Dickie Rideout. Yours till you take algebra and geometry. (...) Yours till I die. (...) Yours till Helen Falls. (...) Yours till the ocean wears rubber pants to keep its bottom dry. Pg. 64: _LOOKING THROUGH THE ARCHIVES_ _AUTOGRAPH ALBUMS_ (...) "You can fall from a tree You can fall from a roof But for goodness sake Don't fall in love." 1936 "When you get married and have twins Don't come to me for safety pins." 1937 "I wish you luck I wish you joy I wish you a baby boy When its hair begins to curl Then I wish you a baby girl." 1938 Pg. 65: "First comes graduation Then comes Marriage Then comes Josephine With a baby carriage." 1938 "Yours till the hot dogs bark." 1936 "Yours till Niagra Falls." 1968 "California grows oranges Florida does too. But it takes Ohio to grow a peach like you." 1936 "Yours till powder puffs." 1936 "What shall I write What shall it be Just two sweet words Remember me." 1939 "When you are old and can not see Put on your specks and think of me." 1968 Pg. 66: "Roses are red, and Indians are black, Do me a favor and sit on a tack." 1957 Remember the city, Remember the town Remember the girl that wrote her autograph upside down." 1957 "I.N.V.U.Q.T." 1957 Pg. 67: "Roses are red, Violets are blue, When it rains, I think of you. DRIP DRIP DRIP" 1959 "You had room for your friends, You had room for your lover, _But_ you didn't have room for little ol' me So I had to write on the cover." 1961 Pg. 68: "When you get married and live in a tree Send me a coconut C.O.D." 1956 "Tulips in the garden Tulips in the park But the kind Joyce likes best Are two lips in the dark." 1956 "It makes me giggle It makes me laugh That you want my autergraph." 1956 "When you get married, and live by the lake, Float me a piece of your weding cake." 1956 Pg. 69: "Someday you may have, I hope, Rainbows for your skipping rope." 1962 Pg. 70: "Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust If it weren't for the girls, Boys lips would rust." 1961 "When you get old and out of shape, Remember girdles are $2.98." 1961 "History is a subject, at least it used to be, First it killed the Romans, Now it's killing me." 1961 "Let your life be like arithmetic: Joys added, sorrows subtracted, Friends multiplied, love undivided." 1961 (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ve Letters Received by the Most Beautiful Woman in Chicago.; Tributes from the Whole Country. Portrait Wins Love of Thousands. Appeals to Best Class of Men. Believe She Is Beyond Their Reach. Filipino Urges His Suit. Doesn't Want to " Make a Mash." Remember Her Now She Is Famous. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 17, 1907. p. F2 (1 page) : "Thanking you in advance for a reply, and hoping fate will be favorable to this note, I am, "Yours Till Niagara Falls." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Indianapolis Star Wednesday, October 30, 1912 Indianapolis, Indiana ...it at advertising rates. YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS. Ind. B. Hanly continues.. Lincoln Star Sunday, May 03, 1931 Lincoln, Nebraska ...This report submitted by "YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS, "BILL DARBY." "You've got.....that Mopey was down here again, "YOURS truly, L.EW HUNTER." "That doesn't.. Nevada State Journal Friday, November 13, 1931 Reno, Nevada ...Felizio Andrade. Past "YOURS TILL NIAGARA FALLS." TODAY'S GREAT BIG.....in our country the problem is old. In YOURS it is new. In Japan it has always.. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 10 11:01:57 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:01:57 -0000 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: The only person I know of who has used "skilligimink" is Howard R Garis, in his Uncle Wiggily stories. Can anyone suggest from where he might have got it? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 10 12:15:43 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:15:43 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: His own version of skinnamarink? sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:01 AM Subject: Skilligimink > The only person I know of who has used "skilligimink" is Howard R > Garis, in his Uncle Wiggily stories. Can anyone suggest from where he > might have got it? > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 12:28:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:28:23 -0800 Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This, on a grand scale, wiped out the dinosaurs. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: speaking of ducks and perversion... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:13 PM -0800 3/9/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >That incorrect URL was of course designed as a test of your resolve. >You have passed that test. And now...the correct URL : > >http://www.harpercollins.com/hc/images/om/JB/SinisterDucks-MarchoftheSinisterDucks.mp3 > >JL > On an eerily related note, here's some real-life research that tends to support the message underlying the above ditty: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1432991,00.html L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 12:35:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 04:35:18 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The origin of the phrase, "A little bird told me." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilson Gray: >According to the literature available when and where I was a child, >bullfrogs "croaked" the sound "jug-a-rum." Other, smaller frogs >"chirrupped" and spring peepers, of course, "peeped." Jonathan Lighter: >Years ago (1992) I mentioned "ribbit" to Fred Cassidy. Either he was >unfamiliar with it, or he had encountered it only recently. > >I do recall that he volunteered "jug-o'-rum" as his childhood frog sound. "Jug o' rum" goes back to 1847 on the American Periodical Series: ----- _The Cultivator_, Nov. 1847; Vol. 4, Iss. 11; p. 353, col. 2 Even the frogs sometimes seem to indulge a little in humorous or sarcastic ditties, for one sings out, "Jug o' rum! jug o rum! jug o' dhrum!"--while another answers--"Paddy got dhroonk, got dhroonk, 'oonk 'nk!" ----- That appears in a piece entitled "Rural Sounds" that has some truly bizarre onamatopoetic interpretations. Take this song of the "Bob o'link", supplied by "a southern writer": "Bobby Lincoln--look Mary Lincoln--velvet pantaloons and summer jacket, ho!--Bobby Lincoln won't let Mary Lincoln gad about alone over clover top, dock-weed, and apple tree--nor shall she marry Michael Mangel Wurtzel!" The reader also learns of a doctor who hears the robin's song as "Kill 'em! kill 'em! cure 'em! cure 'em! give 'em physic, physic, physic!", and a tailor who hears the sparrow's song as "Prick yer fin-ger, suck it, suck it well!" --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 10 14:12:19 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:12:19 -0000 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <000801c5256a$eb232fc0$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: > His own version of skinnamarink? Thanks. Er, what's "skinnamarink"? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 14:14:44 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 06:14:44 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. Help? --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > Not to mention that switching would require that the > National Institute > of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the > National Bureau of > Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna > Division", a cadre > of mobile calibration standards ready to report to > field sites all over > America, and replace it with a "Peroxide Squadron", > who would need to be > trained and otherwise brought up to speed. Plus, "I > Love Lucy" would be > pulled out of the Primary Standards repository and > replaced with > "Baywatch". > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been > the > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any > switch to the > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial > recalibration > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > years ago. > > > > JL > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: James C Stalker > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > Jim > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > JL > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 15:17:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:17:42 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, Baywatch). Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. > Help? > > --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > > Not to mention that switching would require that the National > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready > to report to > > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary > > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > > Jonathan Lighter > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been > > the > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any > > switch to the > > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial > > recalibration > > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. > > > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > > years ago. > > > > > > JL > > > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header > > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: James C Stalker > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ----------------- > > > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 10 15:32:48 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:32:48 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA817@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Just to contribute to this idle speculation further, I should note that I grew up with BCH and that the "B" was "black," not blonde. (In my adult usage, I have replaced it with "tad.") dInIs > Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" >measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a >red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). > >A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, >Baywatch). > >Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. > >Bill > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ed Keer >> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. >> Help? >> >> --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> > Not to mention that switching would require that the National >> > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National >> > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna >> > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready >> to report to >> > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide >> > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to >> > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary >> > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: American Dialect Society >> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> > Jonathan Lighter >> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> > header >> > > ----------------------- >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ----------------- >> > > >> > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been >> > the >> > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any >> > switch to the >> > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial >> > recalibration >> > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. >> > > >> > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >> > years ago. >> > > >> > > JL >> > > >> > > James C Stalker wrote: >> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> > header >> > > ----------------------- >> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > > Poster: James C Stalker >> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ----------------- >> > > >> > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >> > > >> > > Jim >> > > >> > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >> > > >> > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >> > > > >> > > > JL >> > > > >> > >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Make Yahoo! your home page >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 15:50:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:50:47 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project Message-ID: from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for that matter, sitings?) not in our archives... Begin forwarded message: > > this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) > > recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' > instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not > read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', > and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . > it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there > is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > is the use of this phrase documented at all? From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Thu Mar 10 16:05:01 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:01 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: Just saw an online advertisement which read: >Looks like the geeks can get back to being dorks. Made me wonder whether or not the geek/dork pair might have the possibility of evolving into synonymy approaching the level of gorse/furze. I suppose that at the moment, some might object that geek has a techie sense which dork lacks (i.e., computer geeks, not computer dorks), but a good pr firm oughta be able to change all that by strategic blogging, etc. Michael McKernan From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Mar 10 16:07:35 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:09:04 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:09:04 -0800 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:50 AM, i quoted, re "isht": >> it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >> is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. at least two: International Society for Heart Transplantation Instituto Superior de Humanidades e Tecnologias both worthy-sounding entities. and that ain't no isht. arnold From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 10 16:18:30 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:18:30 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <423055C3.28035.B961CA5@localhost> Message-ID: >what's "skinnamarink"? This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a Scotticism. -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:37:19 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [Jonathan Lighter:] >>>>> Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been the accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any switch to the BCH standard would require extensive industrial recalibration that could result in a slowing of economic growth. Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many years ago. <<<<< >From another thread: >>>>> The circus folk not only have a slang of their own, but as they are past masters in the general slang of the day they talk a jargon which would be simply unintelligible to the uninitiated. <<<<< Help! I obviously missed something. What are we talking about? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:20:04 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:20:04 -0500 Subject: Circus Slang (1894) In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes to us: >>>>> Nobody without a voice like a peaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent. <<<<< "Peaking trumpet"? Is that a typo for "speaking trumpet"? OED Online: speaking-trumpet : A kind of trumpet (chiefly used at sea), so contrived as to carry the voice to a great distance, or to cause it to be heard above loud noises. [Citations 1671-1887] -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:53:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:53:47 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: This question was raised on Usenet as far back as 1999. I've never encountered it before now, though. Many of the hits, however, must just be typos. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for that matter, sitings?) not in our archives... Begin forwarded message: > > this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) > > recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' > instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not > read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', > and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . > it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there > is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > is the use of this phrase documented at all? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:46:35 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:46:35 -0500 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:12 AM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >>that matter, sitings?) >> >>not in our archives... >> >>Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >>> >>>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>>is the use of this phrase documented at all? > >Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every >year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a >cluster-simplified version of the former? > > >Larry "Ish" as an exclamation of disgust has been around a long time, at least in the frozen North of Minnesota; other regions use "ick" or "yuck," I believe. But "ish" as a noun is new to me, assuming that's what Larry and Grant are suggesting. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:50:42 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:50:42 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <98d2e8a181d7d1ae9b8b8bb5661d7830@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Come to think of it (and I haven't for a long long time), I used to also hear "isht" and "ishta" as variants of Minnesota "ish," but again only as an exclamation, not as a noun. ("Ishta" is sort of like "oofta" up there, but implying something awful, not just unfortunate.) At 11:33 AM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > >>I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. >this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my >student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored >settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of >people who are tailoring their language -- for example, > >Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat >.... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever >the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. >.... > www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html > >[this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >the writer of the above.] > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 16:05:19 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:05:19 -0500 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: That's nice synchronicity: yesterday I took down some citations from a blogger in Detroit using "ish" in place "shit," and added it to my queue of terms to research further. It's easy to search for if you use pat phrases: "give/gave/giving a/an ish/isht"; "knock/kick/smack the ish/isht," "full of ish/isht", "talk/talked/talking ish/isht," etc. Here's the blogger: http://lifeintextformat.blogspot.com/2005/03/things-i-hate-about- work.html Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 10, 2005, at 10:50, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for > that matter, sitings?) > > not in our archives... > > Begin forwarded message: >> >> this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >> recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >> instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >> read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >> and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >> it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >> is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >> is the use of this phrase documented at all? > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:12:21 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:12:21 -0500 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: <2e04e97415245bbd7d75eb88dcbeda3b@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >that matter, sitings?) > >not in our archives... > >Begin forwarded message: >> >>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>is the use of this phrase documented at all? Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a cluster-simplified version of the former? Larry From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:32:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:32:12 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [Dennis R. Preston:] >Not "greedep" down Louisville way. It was clearly "needeep" (with the >obvious association with "kneedeep"). [Ben Zimmer:] Do we have Joel Chandler Harris to thank for "knee-deep"? <<<<< Laura Ingalls Wilder, if I recall correctly, wrote in one of the books of the Little House series, her fictionalized memoirs of growing up on the frontier in the years after the Civil War, of hearing a bullfrog's croak as a warning: "Knee-deep! Knee-deep! Better go round!" -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:35:44 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:35:44 -0500 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project In-Reply-To: <20050310050037.CC5A6B264D@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Bill Mullins writes: > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; > pg. 19/5 "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, > shimmering with emerald-gold and silver fin." > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, 1937; > p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] The hotel advertisement does not seem connected with the literary/SF use of "urban fantasy". The book review headline may or may not; it could easily have been coined by the reviewer or the editor to describe a story that would not at all be considered "fantasy" in literary terms. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 16:33:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:33:05 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <000d01c5258b$475f7fd0$787aeb3f@chaos> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. > this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of people who are tailoring their language -- for example, Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat ... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. ... www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by the writer of the above.] and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:57:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:57:48 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Dunno about that, but a search does turn up plenty of " uck "s and " *uck "s. JL . David Bergdahl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: ISHT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 16:59:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:59:56 -0800 Subject: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: If Yalies have to simplify their clusters, we ARE in trouble. Yeah, I know.... JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Fwd: if you're ever looking for a new project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 7:50 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from an undergrad student of mine. any sightings or citings? (or, for >that matter, sitings?) > >not in our archives... > >Begin forwarded message: >> >>this goes back to middle school (i remember it saying it then) >> >>recently, i've noticed that a lot of people have been saying 'isht' >>instead of 'shit'. a google search brings up phrases like 'do not >>read this boring isht', 'old isht', 'becca's page of random isht!', >>and, my favorite, 'weird isht i feel like posting whilst st0ned!' . >>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. >>is the use of this phrase documented at all? Haven't heard "isht", but I've been getting "ish" for "shit" every year on my students' slang compilations. Could the former be a cluster-simplified version of the former? Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:06:42 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:06:42 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050310114746.0336d988@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >> On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: >> www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html >> [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >> construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >> the writer of the above.] It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, shaboney, etc." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:09:19 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:09:19 -0500 Subject: isht/ish (was: if you're ever looking for a new project) In-Reply-To: <20050310165348.2905.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 11:53, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This question was raised on Usenet as far back as 1999. I've never > encountered it before now, though. Many of the hits, however, must > just be typos. Some, surely, but others are called out in scare quotes, which would indicate the typing was intentional: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.adventist/ msg/f209e315999aa963?dmode=source (That URL is long and likely to be broken by a mail reader, so you might have to paste two pieces together to get the whole.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 10 17:11:00 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: Fwd: ISHT Message-ID: The first quoted paragraph below should be attributed to Mr. Arnold Zwicky, not Mr. David Bergdahl. Begin forwarded message: >>> www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html >>> [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh >>> construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >>> the writer of the above.] > > It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" > (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; > (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, > shaboney, etc." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 10 18:23:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:23:09 -0500 Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess Message-ID: GLASS ZOO 10 March 2005, New York Sun, R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. column, pg. 11, col. 1: On another occasion, Mr. Bolton wrote that if the glass zoo on the East River that is the U.N. headquarters "lost ten stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference." I'd add "glass zoo" to "lipstick" and "black rock" for NYC buildings, but I don't see much use so far. -------------------------------------------------------------- GUERRILLA CHESS 10 March 2005, New York Sun, Nibras Kazimi opinion, pg. 11, col. 2: In desperation, they employed the tactics of "guerilla chess" that are inspired by the fundamental premise of guerrilla warfare: you win by not losing. There are some hits for "guerrilla chess" and "guerilla chess," but not many. There were only gorillas when I played. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:03:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:03:56 -0500 Subject: if you're ever looking for a new project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8:09 AM -0800 3/10/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Mar 10, 2005, at 7:50 AM, i quoted, re "isht": > >>>it's difficult to just do a google search of this phrase because there >>>is at least one organization that uses the acronym ISHT for its name. > >at least two: >International Society for Heart Transplantation >Instituto Superior de Humanidades e Tecnologias > >both worthy-sounding entities. and that ain't no isht. > As opposed to the Society for Heart and Intellect Transplantation (or the South Hanoi Institute of Technology, which was of course the home institution of the late, lamented Quang Phuc Dong). L From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:05:35 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:05:35 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance Message-ID: When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > Just saw an online advertisement which read: > > >Looks like the geeks can get back to being dorks. > > Made me wonder whether or not the geek/dork pair might have > the possibility of evolving into synonymy approaching the > level of gorse/furze. > > I suppose that at the moment, some might object that geek has > a techie sense which dork lacks (i.e., computer geeks, not > computer dorks), but a good pr firm oughta be able to change > all that by strategic blogging, etc. > > Michael McKernan > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:19:20 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:19:20 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050310111601.02fa9cb0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>what's "skinnamarink"? > >This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I >think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a >Scotticism. > FWIW, "skinnamarink" was in standard colloquial use in NYC, '50s, by those of decidedly non-Scottish extraction. I've never come across "skilligimink" before now, though. Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:21:08 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:21:08 -0600 Subject: new SF cites for the OED SF project Message-ID: I've found others of the "SF" terms on the lists that didn't appear initially as SF, but evolved from related meanings already extant. Example: Sense of Wonder > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" > Subject: Re: new SF cites for the OED SF project > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Bill Mullins writes: > > urban fantasy (OED SF Project has 1993; not in OED) > [Display Ad for > > St. Regis Hotel] New York Times Oct 29, 1928; pg. 19/5 > "Another Urban Fantasy, a bower of the tropic seas, shimmering with > emerald-gold and silver fin." > > > > "An Urban Fantasy" New York Times Book Review Jul 25, > 1937; p. 7/4 [phrase appears only in title, not in body of article] > > The hotel advertisement does not seem connected with the > literary/SF use of "urban fantasy". The book review headline > may or may not; it could easily have been coined by the > reviewer or the editor to describe a story that would not at > all be considered "fantasy" in literary terms. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 10 19:28:10 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:28:10 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) Message-ID: What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One Froggy Evening"? From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:39:41 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:39:41 -0600 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA81A@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: > What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One >Froggy Evening"? Besides the singing? Nothing as articulated as _ribbit_. My memory is that he sounded like a frog. Barbara From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:42:47 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:42:47 -0500 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be >modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" >or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta >[dance]" (with variants). > >---------- > >_Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: > ><widely-advertised dance of a woman whose name I have forgotten, but who, it >was gravely asserted, had been famous in India for several years. .... She >performed what was known as the "Koota-Koota" dance. This is a series of >postures of such a nature that even in Calcutta the dance was considered >infamous.>> > >---------- [snip cites from 1893-95 for "koota-koota", "kuta-kuta", "kutcha-kutcha"] Till Gerry Cohen chimes in, I thought I'd provide some more cites from 1893-95, mostly referring to the belly-dancers who performed at Chicago's 1893 Columbian Exposition in the "Streets of Cairo" exhibit on the Midway Plaisance. The dancers apparently traveled the country on the vaudeville circuit, or at least spawned imitators who promoters claimed had performed in Chicago. The most common spelling variant is "kouta-kouta": ----- National Police Gazette, Dec 16, 1893, p. 6 Crowds gathered in cornerns and gazed tremulously at visions of limbs flashing in difficult dances like streaks of lightning. The Koota-Koota dance, adorned with east-side variations, was realistic. ----- Boston Globe, Dec 31, 1893, p. 19 (advt.) Why, I've got a stage show for you this week that will fairly make you throw up your hands. There ain't a piece of dead wood in it from start to finish, and to cap the climax I've reengaged Mme. Carre and her famous troupe of Kouta-Kouta dancers for one more week. ... This Kouta-Kouta dance is the greatest card that has ever been offered the public. ... It created a furor in Chicago, was the talk of the town in New York, and it caused a heap of excitement when it was first introduced at the Howard, and you know it. ... Come early, and stay as long as you please, but don't miss the Kouta-Kouta dancers at the old Howard Athenaeum tomorrow. [...] Olio: The Kouta-Kouta Dancers. The four original and only Kouta-Kouta dancers who created the sensational furor on the Midway Plaisance, and whose fame has spread from one end of the continent to the other. ----- Boston Globe, Jan 2, 1894, p. 3 The Kouta-Kouta dancers made their usual hit, being encored several times. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 18, 1894, p. 2 By a unanimous vote of the Alderman at a special meeting today, the notorious "Mussell," or "Kouta Kouta" dance, alleged to have been performed by dancers from the Midway Plaisance, World's Fair, has been officially declared immoral and banished from Boston. ----- Washington Post, Apr 22, 1894, p. 14 Another feature will be the appearance of another installment of the Midway dancers in the persons of Hadji Sheriff, Viobela, Zara, and Montezo, in the Kouta-Kouta, the national dance of their country. They are said to be the same dancers who created such a sensation in Cairo street at the World's Fair. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1895, p. 4 Kinetoscope Pictures. It is Omene in the nearest approach to the kouta-kouta dance that has been seen in this city. ----- Washington Post, Aug 27, 1895, p. 2 Later in the evening she appeared as Princess Kouta-Kouta and gave a dance which was wild and hilarious. ----- When belly-dancers performed in a reconstruction of Chicago's Midway in Atlanta in 1895, "coochee-coochee" and "coutah-coutah" were used in the press interchangeably: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 23, 1895, p. 7 Have you heard Cora Routt sing of the simple country maiden who "had never seen the coochee-coochee dance?" The boys around town are all whistling away on that delicious oriental-American tune which is so suggestive of the Midway, and Cora certainly sings it with great feeling. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 24, 1895, p. 2 AGAINST THE COUTAH-COUTAH.; Manufacturers Say It Detracts from Their Exhibits at Fairs. A resolution was adopted which cited that windmills, threshing machines and vehicles stood no earthly chance whatever by the side of the seductive coutah-coutah dance and a vigorous campaign will at once be begun to wipe out this innovation. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 26, 1895, p. 1 The committee visited the Midway, ate the "hot-hots" of Egyptian commerce, drank of the seductive liquid refreshments purveyed by the Turks, witnessed the "coochee coochee" dance, and pronounced it a godd thing. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 26, 1895, p. 7 ON WITH THE DANCE; But It Is Move On, the Georgia Legislators Say. THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE MID The Coutah-Coutah Is Too Much Like a Tamole for Their Taste--A Day in the Legislature. "There is no record of any law compelling a lady or gentleman to visit the 'coochee dance,'" said he. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Nov 4, 1895, p. 4 He explained that while he was in sympathy with the legislative bill prohibiting the coochee-coochee dance, being a fair-mind man, he could not condemn the dance without seeing whether it was naughty or not. ----- >But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or >Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" >(i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. That seems possible. I would guess that promoters of the belly-dance troupes came up with the exotic-sounding "kuta kuta" for the dance (and the name "Princess Kuta Kuta" for the starring performer) simply to suggest the wiggling of the dancers' hips. >I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it >is not available to me. Nor to me. But here is some information on James Thornton's 1895 song "Streets Of Cairo or The Poor Little Country Maid" (cited in HDAS with the spelling "kutchy-kutchy"): http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles3/streets-of-cairo.htm And here is a review (with an excerpt) of Donna Carlton's 1995 book _Looking for Little Egypt_, which might provide further insight: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/review.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/Info.htm Carlton notes that the legendary belly-dancer "Little Egypt" does not appear in any of the contemporaneous press accounts of the Columbian Exposition, only becoming notorious a few years afterwards. This may be true of the term "hoochy coochy" as well, first becoming attached to the Midway dancers well after the original performance. (In the excerpt, Carlton says that the book discusses "the long-debated etymology of 'hoochy coochy'" and suggests "a new derivation.") --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:43:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:43:37 -0800 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Skilligimink ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >what's "skinnamarink"? This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a Scotticism. -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:47:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:47:43 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "J-bronie" represents "jabroney," "gibroney," etc., var. "jaboney," "giboney," etc., meaning "stupid or offensive person." See HDAS I. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: ISHT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:07 AM, David Bergdahl wrote: > I think this is to avoid being filtered out by search engines. > this is almost surely how it started. but it's gone past that. my student reported people *saying* it (in informal, unmonitored settings). some of the google hits don't sound like the writing of people who are tailoring their language -- for example, Low Budget Tone's News And Views Pertaining To Jacksquat ... Me? I'm sick as crap right now. Let me say some isht first. Whoever the j-bronie is leaving stupid ass isht on my guestbook, is a retard. ... www.angelfire.com/ny/blasphamy/March29th2g.html [this is also worth attention for its apparently telescoped wh construction. "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by the writer of the above.] and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:52:27 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:52:27 -0800 Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: There are a few hits for "gorilla chess" also. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Glass Zoo (the U.N.); Guerrilla Chess ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GLASS ZOO 10 March 2005, New York Sun, R. Emmett Tyrrell Jr. column, pg. 11, col. 1: On another occasion, Mr. Bolton wrote that if the glass zoo on the East River that is the U.N. headquarters "lost ten stories, it wouldn't make a bit of difference." I'd add "glass zoo" to "lipstick" and "black rock" for NYC buildings, but I don't see much use so far. -------------------------------------------------------------- GUERRILLA CHESS 10 March 2005, New York Sun, Nibras Kazimi opinion, pg. 11, col. 2: In desperation, they employed the tactics of "guerilla chess" that are inspired by the fundamental premise of guerrilla warfare: you win by not losing. There are some hits for "guerrilla chess" and "guerilla chess," but not many. There were only gorillas when I played. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 10 19:55:09 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:55:09 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA818@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to undergo job retraining? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 19:56:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:56:21 -0800 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I recall, he uttered a prelinguistic frog-like sound. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Ribbit! (1965) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One Froggy Evening"? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 20:01:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:01:40 -0800 Subject: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) Message-ID: Listen to the entire melody here. It's better than you remember ! Honest ! http://www.shira.net/streets-of-cairo.htm A related site offers a "belly-dancing" version. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "Hootchie-cootchie" etymology (partly speculative) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:10:22 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The exact form "coochy coochy" for the dance (however spelled) might be >modeled on this expression. However, a little earlier than "hoochy coochy" >or "coochy coochy" there was the apparently virtually synonymous "kuta kuta >[dance]" (with variants). > >---------- > >_Chicago Daily [Tribune]_, 22 May 1892: p. 30: > ><>widely-advertised dance of a woman whose name I have forgotten, but who, it >was gravely asserted, had been famous in India for several years. .... She >performed what was known as the "Koota-Koota" dance. This is a series of >postures of such a nature that even in Calcutta the dance was considered >infamous.>> > >---------- [snip cites from 1893-95 for "koota-koota", "kuta-kuta", "kutcha-kutcha"] Till Gerry Cohen chimes in, I thought I'd provide some more cites from 1893-95, mostly referring to the belly-dancers who performed at Chicago's 1893 Columbian Exposition in the "Streets of Cairo" exhibit on the Midway Plaisance. The dancers apparently traveled the country on the vaudeville circuit, or at least spawned imitators who promoters claimed had performed in Chicago. The most common spelling variant is "kouta-kouta": ----- National Police Gazette, Dec 16, 1893, p. 6 Crowds gathered in cornerns and gazed tremulously at visions of limbs flashing in difficult dances like streaks of lightning. The Koota-Koota dance, adorned with east-side variations, was realistic. ----- Boston Globe, Dec 31, 1893, p. 19 (advt.) Why, I've got a stage show for you this week that will fairly make you throw up your hands. There ain't a piece of dead wood in it from start to finish, and to cap the climax I've reengaged Mme. Carre and her famous troupe of Kouta-Kouta dancers for one more week. ... This Kouta-Kouta dance is the greatest card that has ever been offered the public. ... It created a furor in Chicago, was the talk of the town in New York, and it caused a heap of excitement when it was first introduced at the Howard, and you know it. ... Come early, and stay as long as you please, but don't miss the Kouta-Kouta dancers at the old Howard Athenaeum tomorrow. [...] Olio: The Kouta-Kouta Dancers. The four original and only Kouta-Kouta dancers who created the sensational furor on the Midway Plaisance, and whose fame has spread from one end of the continent to the other. ----- Boston Globe, Jan 2, 1894, p. 3 The Kouta-Kouta dancers made their usual hit, being encored several times. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 18, 1894, p. 2 By a unanimous vote of the Alderman at a special meeting today, the notorious "Mussell," or "Kouta Kouta" dance, alleged to have been performed by dancers from the Midway Plaisance, World's Fair, has been officially declared immoral and banished from Boston. ----- Washington Post, Apr 22, 1894, p. 14 Another feature will be the appearance of another installment of the Midway dancers in the persons of Hadji Sheriff, Viobela, Zara, and Montezo, in the Kouta-Kouta, the national dance of their country. They are said to be the same dancers who created such a sensation in Cairo street at the World's Fair. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1895, p. 4 Kinetoscope Pictures. It is Omene in the nearest approach to the kouta-kouta dance that has been seen in this city. ----- Washington Post, Aug 27, 1895, p. 2 Later in the evening she appeared as Princess Kouta-Kouta and gave a dance which was wild and hilarious. ----- When belly-dancers performed in a reconstruction of Chicago's Midway in Atlanta in 1895, "coochee-coochee" and "coutah-coutah" were used in the press interchangeably: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 23, 1895, p. 7 Have you heard Cora Routt sing of the simple country maiden who "had never seen the coochee-coochee dance?" The boys around town are all whistling away on that delicious oriental-American tune which is so suggestive of the Midway, and Cora certainly sings it with great feeling. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 24, 1895, p. 2 AGAINST THE COUTAH-COUTAH.; Manufacturers Say It Detracts from Their Exhibits at Fairs. A resolution was adopted which cited that windmills, threshing machines and vehicles stood no earthly chance whatever by the side of the seductive coutah-coutah dance and a vigorous campaign will at once be begun to wipe out this innovation. ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 26, 1895, p. 1 The committee visited the Midway, ate the "hot-hots" of Egyptian commerce, drank of the seductive liquid refreshments purveyed by the Turks, witnessed the "coochee coochee" dance, and pronounced it a godd thing. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Oct 26, 1895, p. 7 ON WITH THE DANCE; But It Is Move On, the Georgia Legislators Say. THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE MID The Coutah-Coutah Is Too Much Like a Tamole for Their Taste--A Day in the Legislature. "There is no record of any law compelling a lady or gentleman to visit the 'coochee dance,'" said he. ----- Atlanta Constitution, Nov 4, 1895, p. 4 He explained that while he was in sympathy with the legislative bill prohibiting the coochee-coochee dance, being a fair-mind man, he could not condemn the dance without seeing whether it was naughty or not. ----- >But whence "kuta kuta"? Does it have a meaning in Bengali or Turkish or >Arabic? Was it made up at random? Maybe it was modeled on "hula-hula" >(i.e., "hula"), a dance which was seen at the time as somewhat similar. That seems possible. I would guess that promoters of the belly-dance troupes came up with the exotic-sounding "kuta kuta" for the dance (and the name "Princess Kuta Kuta" for the starring performer) simply to suggest the wiggling of the dancers' hips. >I know Gerald Cohen has written something about "hootchie-cootchie" but it >is not available to me. Nor to me. But here is some information on James Thornton's 1895 song "Streets Of Cairo or The Poor Little Country Maid" (cited in HDAS with the spelling "kutchy-kutchy"): http://www.gildedserpent.com/articles3/streets-of-cairo.htm And here is a review (with an excerpt) of Donna Carlton's 1995 book _Looking for Little Egypt_, which might provide further insight: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/review.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/IDD/Info.htm Carlton notes that the legendary belly-dancer "Little Egypt" does not appear in any of the contemporaneous press accounts of the Columbian Exposition, only becoming notorious a few years afterwards. This may be true of the term "hoochy coochy" as well, first becoming attached to the Midway dancers well after the original performance. (In the excerpt, Carlton says that the book discusses "the long-debated etymology of 'hoochy coochy'" and suggests "a new derivation.") --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 10 20:03:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:03:32 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. Otherwise, see HDAS. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to undergo job retraining? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 10 20:07:36 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:07:36 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <20050310194337.44092.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a collection of "Brooklynisms" at http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. Joanne On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. > > JL > > "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Skilligimink > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >what's "skinnamarink"? > > This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I > think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a > Scotticism. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 10 21:14:19 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:14:19 -0800 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate disagreeableness. Fritz and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with "freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty of examples). some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". arnold From gingi at POBOX.COM Thu Mar 10 21:31:57 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:31:57 -0500 Subject: Ribbit! (1965) In-Reply-To: <20050310192813.2563D28063B@lime.pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2005-03-10 13:28, Bill.Mullins offered ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU this data: > What did Michigan J. Frog say in the 1955 Warner Bros. cartoon, "One > Froggy Evening"? Something linguistically between *BRRRAP* and *BRRROP*, sounding rather like a belch. (yes, my memory for such things is a little weird) -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 10 21:26:54 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:26:54 -0500 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I never did say it in nice company--I just hate the sound of it! But you're right, the adjective use is common too, usually as "ishy." At 04:14 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for >generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? > >The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be >used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate >disagreeableness. >Fritz > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Thu Mar 10 21:53:00 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:53:00 -0800 Subject: ISHT Message-ID: I think it was OK in polite company, but maybe outlanders will force a change on -MNsotans. >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 03/10/05 01:26PM >>> I never did say it in nice company--I just hate the sound of it! But you're right, the adjective use is common too, usually as "ishy." At 04:14 PM 3/10/2005, you wrote: >How about those folks from Minnesota who have been saying 'ish' for >generations? They won't be able to say it in nice company anymore, will they? > >The Minnesota 'ish' is not the same as the one being discussed, but can be >used as both an adjective and exclamation, altho both indicate >disagreeableness. >Fritz > >and. as larry horn is about to observe in the very next ADS posting, >his yale students have been reporting (spoken) slang "ish" for "shit" >for some years. (i agree with larry that this is probably a >cluster-simplified version of "isht".) quite >probably taboo avoidance, but of the everybody-gets-it sort, as with >"freakin'" and "friggin'" etc. for "fuckin'" (see The F-Word for plenty >of examples). > >some of the users might not even see the "shit" in "ish". > >arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 10 23:12:16 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 15:12:16 -0800 Subject: ISHT In-Reply-To: <5b5f3b2fba3aa7d34de2e6427f1481f5@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: On Mar 10, 2005, at 9:06 AM, Grant Barrett wrote: >>> "j-bronie" is a insult label, quite possibly coined by >>> the writer of the above.] > > It'd say it's a variation on "gibroney" (HDAS 1964-66) cf. "jiboney" > (HDAS 1921), "Esp. Ital.-Amer. a stupid, foolish, or offensive person; > (also) a hired thug; hoodlum; (broadly) a man; fellow. Also jaboney, > shaboney, etc." cool. i should have thought of "gibroney", which i've heard (but not for a long long time). arnold From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM Fri Mar 11 00:43:45 2005 From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 19:43:45 -0500 Subject: corrected Re: correction Re: astroturf In-Reply-To: <200503091859612.SM01620@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I stand corrected - just started working with foxfire and didn't see the rss feed. thanks so much, karen At 09:59 PM 3/9/2005, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Re: correction Re: astroturf >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 9, 2005, at 21:27, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote: > > you saw the address http://www.baseballmusings.com that is a website > > address which used computer progamming code to aggregate blogs onto > > their website. > >I see no evidence that this is true. The software being used is >Moveable Type, well-known blogging software. The content appears to be >unique: I find no other instances of select phrases when searching >Google, Technorati, or Feedster. The narrative thread in the posts is >also consistent, which would not be the case if they were the product >of an aggregator. > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 01:16:23 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:16:23 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Bill Mullins: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? Larry Horn: >when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to >undergo job retraining? Jonathan Lighter: >The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. > >Otherwise, see HDAS. The first HDAS cite for "geek" in the nerdy sense ('an unsociable or overdiligent student') is from Edith Folb's _Runnin' Down Some Lines: The Language and Culture of Black Teenagers_ (1980). The OED3 draft entry antedates this with a 1957 cite from Jack Kerouac's letters: ----- 1957 J. KEROUAC Let. 1 Oct. in Sel. Lett. 1957-69 (1999) 66 Unbelievable number of events almost impossible to remember, including..Brooklyn College wanted me to lecture to eager students and big geek questions to answer. ----- I'm not quite sure what Kerouac meant by "big geek questions"... In any case, the use of "geek" in the collegiate context didn't take off until the mid-'70s. Here's a 1976 cite I found in the Harvard Crimson online archive: ----- http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=105171 Harvard Crimson, August 10, 1976 Ever wondered what was on the other side of Central Square besides the MIT geeks with pocket computers and the NECCO factory? ----- Fred Shapiro noted recently that "geek" was not much used at MIT in the '70s, so perhaps it was something of an exonym, applied by Harvard students to MIT students. I was only able to find one example from the '70s in the online archive of MIT's paper, The Tech, with its hit-or-miss OCR -- and that's for a letter to the editor reprinted from *Dartmouth's* paper: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_098/TECH_V098_S0514_P001.pdf The Tech (MIT), Nov. 14, 1978, p. 1, col. 1 To the Editor: I would just like to comment on the present epidemic of geekishness which is pervading the ranks of freshmen here at the college. I should correct myself and say that this rare disease seems to have been an integral aspect of the class of '81 ever since it set foot in this once geek-free environment. To document my accusation I cite the incredibly weak showing in their first bonfire building, and now their even weaker show in. their second attempt. Where is all their spirit? Most likely it's to be found in the stacks, or Kiewit [Computation Center), or the '02 room perhaps. I just don't know what to make of it all. I challenge these geeks to show a little spirit and produce an 81 tier bonfire by Friday night. It would also be nice to see a few kegs and some spirit around their awaited creation each night. Until then I rest my case. Jeff Boylan '79 The Dartmouth ----- "Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster "Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 02:31:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:31:36 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: A careful consideration of all the "geek" evidence suggests that there was probably no single moment when it came to cover overly intellectual types. tThe word had been in use for decades here and there with "weirdo" being one connotation. IIRC, the early DN cite came from a college campus. But the word's widespread current popularity surely dates from the late '70s and early '80s. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Mullins: >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens at the carnival >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? Larry Horn: >when the carnival sideshows were phased out and those guys had to >undergo job retraining? Jonathan Lighter: >The only retraining needed was to quit biting the heads off chickens. > >Otherwise, see HDAS. The first HDAS cite for "geek" in the nerdy sense ('an unsociable or overdiligent student') is from Edith Folb's _Runnin' Down Some Lines: The Language and Culture of Black Teenagers_ (1980). The OED3 draft entry antedates this with a 1957 cite from Jack Kerouac's letters: ----- 1957 J. KEROUAC Let. 1 Oct. in Sel. Lett. 1957-69 (1999) 66 Unbelievable number of events almost impossible to remember, including..Brooklyn College wanted me to lecture to eager students and big geek questions to answer. ----- I'm not quite sure what Kerouac meant by "big geek questions"... In any case, the use of "geek" in the collegiate context didn't take off until the mid-'70s. Here's a 1976 cite I found in the Harvard Crimson online archive: ----- http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=105171 Harvard Crimson, August 10, 1976 Ever wondered what was on the other side of Central Square besides the MIT geeks with pocket computers and the NECCO factory? ----- Fred Shapiro noted recently that "geek" was not much used at MIT in the '70s, so perhaps it was something of an exonym, applied by Harvard students to MIT students. I was only able to find one example from the '70s in the online archive of MIT's paper, The Tech, with its hit-or-miss OCR -- and that's for a letter to the editor reprinted from *Dartmouth's* paper: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_098/TECH_V098_S0514_P001.pdf The Tech (MIT), Nov. 14, 1978, p. 1, col. 1 To the Editor: I would just like to comment on the present epidemic of geekishness which is pervading the ranks of freshmen here at the college. I should correct myself and say that this rare disease seems to have been an integral aspect of the class of '81 ever since it set foot in this once geek-free environment. To document my accusation I cite the incredibly weak showing in their first bonfire building, and now their even weaker show in. their second attempt. Where is all their spirit? Most likely it's to be found in the stacks, or Kiewit [Computation Center), or the '02 room perhaps. I just don't know what to make of it all. I challenge these geeks to show a little spirit and produce an 81 tier bonfire by Friday night. It would also be nice to see a few kegs and some spirit around their awaited creation each night. Until then I rest my case. Jeff Boylan '79 The Dartmouth ----- "Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster "Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 11 02:46:39 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >"Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster >"Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 > >Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 >in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a 'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later text of the online ad which prompted my post). But whadabout dork? As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 02:47:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:47:18 -0800 Subject: "Inkfish" Message-ID: For "ink-fish," a cuttlefish or squid, OED offers but two cites (1693 and 1752). 1996 Eddie S. Picardo Tales of a Tail Gunner (Seattle: Hara Pub. Co.) 33 : On Christmas Eve...Grandma would make spaghetti sauce with inkfish (today they would call it calamari or squid). Picardo (b. 1922) grew up in Seattle. In mercantile ingenuity, the switch to "calamari" from "inkfish" rivals that to "Alaska king-crab" from "Japanese spider-crab." (Neither of these appears in OED.) JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 11 03:00:04 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:00:04 -0600 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that was live chickens; the geek bit the head off, or something like that. Dead chickens wouldn't have been nearly gross enough to merit such a special term! Victoria > > At 1:05 PM -0600 3/10/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: > >When did geek evolve from the guy who eats dead chickens > at the carnival > >to the guy who knows how to set the clock on the VCR? > > Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 03:26:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:26:05 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <423062B8.15771.108C4A1C@localhost> Message-ID: At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >collection of "Brooklynisms" at >http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. > >Joanne > >On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >> > > JL >> strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. Urban slang? L From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 11 03:39:42 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:39:42 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: Age 60, grew up in Virginia, lived in Ohio since 1970. Never encountered the word(skinnamarinkidink) in any form until my son and I watched the "Elephant Show" on tv, late 1980's, early 1990's. Sharon, Lois and Bram. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:26 PM Subject: Re: Skilligimink > At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >>A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >>something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >>collection of "Brooklynisms" at >>http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. >> >>Joanne >> >>On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >>> >> > JL >>> > strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my > daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it > was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real > skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. > Urban slang? > > L > From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 03:56:40 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 22:56:40 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My mother, KY born (1919) and bred,used "skinny minny" usually in the phrase skinny minny fish tail, as in she's a real skinny minny fish tail. I still use it in intimate (family) contexts mostly, and generally to refer to children. My wife used it too, in the same phrase. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > At 3:07 PM -0500 3/10/05, Joanne M. Despres wrote: >> A North (New) Jersey resident of my acquaintance used say >> something like "Skinny bolink." I found this variant listed in a >> collection of "Brooklynisms" at >> http://www.lampos.com/brooklyn.htm. >> >> Joanne >> >> On 10 Mar 2005, at 11:43, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> "Skinnymalink" was my grandmother's form. She said it frequently. >>> >> > JL >>> > strange. Neither my wife (age 61, grew up in Connecticut) nor my > daughter (age 20) have ever heard of any of these variants, but it > was definitely in my parents' vocabulary ("__ is a real > skinnymarink", I can remember my mother saying), NYC, early-mid 50's. > Urban slang? > > L > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Mar 11 04:00:53 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:00:53 -0500 Subject: Isht and Ish In-Reply-To: <69c0993baccc4ccae56989e6aed4171d@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: For what it's worth, Alonzo Westbrook's "Hip Hoptionary: The Dictionary of Hip Hop Terminology" (2002) separates "ish" and "isht", p. 76: ish: chitchat. "We sat around shooting the _ish._" isht: expletive, like shit. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From stalker at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 04:11:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:11:42 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I support my So. IN colleague. B is black not blonde in my native Louisville, KY and was black in Chapel Hill, NC in the late 50s and early 60s. We really must adhere to strict standards here. No usage variation please. JCS Dennis R. Preston writes: > Just to contribute to this idle speculation further, I should note > that I grew up with BCH and that the "B" was "black," not blonde. (In > my adult usage, I have replaced it with "tad.") > > dInIs > > > >> Just idle speculation as to what would happen if the "standard" >> measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in "move that over just a >> red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH (blonde cunt hair). >> >> A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a blonde hair (peroxide, >> Baywatch). >> >> Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I usually amuse myself. >> >> Bill >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: American Dialect Society >>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Keer >>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Ed Keer >>> Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ----------------- >>> >>> Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the joke. >>> Help? >>> >>> --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >>> > Not to mention that switching would require that the National >>> > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, formerly the National >>> > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to dissolve its "Henna >>> > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration standards ready >>> to report to >>> > field sites all over America, and replace it with a "Peroxide >>> > Squadron", who would need to be trained and otherwise brought up to >>> > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out of the Primary >>> > Standards repository and replaced with "Baywatch". >>> > >>> > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > From: American Dialect Society >>> > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >>> > Jonathan Lighter >>> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >>> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> > header >>> > > ----------------------- >>> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > >>> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> > >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > ----------------- >>> > > >>> > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have been >>> > the >>> > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. Any >>> > switch to the >>> > > BCH standard would require extensive industrial >>> > recalibration >>> > > that could result in a slowing of economic growth. >>> > > >>> > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >>> > years ago. >>> > > >>> > > JL >>> > > >>> > > James C Stalker wrote: >>> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> > header >>> > > ----------------------- >>> > > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > > Poster: James C Stalker >>> > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >>> > > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > ----------------- >>> > > >>> > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >>> > > >>> > > Jim >>> > > >>> > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >>> > > >>> > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >>> > > > >>> > > > JL >>> > > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Make Yahoo! your home page >>> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >>> > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages > Wells Hall A-740 > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA > Office: (517) 353-0740 > Fax: (517) 432-2736 > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 04:45:02 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:45:02 EST Subject: napkins and servietes Message-ID: In a message dated 3/1/05 10:00:24 AM, sod at LOUISIANA.EDU writes: > "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends > had a field day with my American useage. > Then what do you ask for at McDonald's in Louisiana--a serviette? I doubt it! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:22:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 00:22:02 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan wrote: >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > >But whadabout dork? > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns with "nerd", not "dork". "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" and "nerd" have been subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both terms has become more prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic melioration, no doubt inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ (an expression subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et al.) "Geek" has followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness the article in the latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics retailer Best Buy: http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html Part of Best Buy's recent success has been attributed to their deployment of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable techies who work as "agents" assisting befuddled customers. See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek chic": http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 05:36:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:36:03 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and "geek" often does. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >"Geek" appeared as a synonym for "nurd" in National Lampoon's 1977 poster >"Are You a Nurd?" -- see Barry Popik's post: >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002A&L=ads-l&P=R3030 > >Also, Barnhart and Metcalf gave "geek" as their word of the year for 1978 >in _America in So Many Words_, though I don't know what that was based on. Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I almost included it as a 'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually appeared in the later text of the online ad which prompted my post). But whadabout dork? As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:38:12 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:38:12 +0800 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <20050311044507.B550956FF6@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:45:02 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM said: > > "Napkin" left my lexicon after my British friends > > had a field day with my American useage. > Then what do you ask for at McDonald's in Louisiana--a serviette? I doubt > it! Serviette does sound silly in American English. In British English and in French it sounds perfectly natural. I don't suppose much French is spoken in McDonald's restaurants (for want of a better word) in Louisiana - even in Cajun country. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:53:15 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:53:15 -0600 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <36.6e4a56fe.2f627c4e@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't go to McDonalds. :-) We have far too many more interesting killer-food purveyors down here. Once you've had a fried [choose one] shrimp/oyster/catfish/softshell crab po'boy, a Big Mac doesn't seem so big. Were I ever in McDonald's, though, I would ask for paper napkins. The context would unambiguously allow for plain old "napkins," but some experiences are too deeply embedded to forget. In other instances, simple codeswitching would suffice. sod From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 05:59:45 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:59:45 -0600 Subject: napkins and servietes In-Reply-To: <1110519492.24077.218078669@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: You'd be surprised how much of the Cajun dialect is abroad in the open market down here. The linguist in the next office runs middle-aged subjects who have Cajun as their native language and who only learned English when they went to public school. sod From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 09:18:55 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 04:18:55 EST Subject: Big Dance; Chicago Tribune; Circus Slang correction Message-ID: "CIRCUS SLANG" CORRECTION: "Nobody without a voice like a speaking trumpet can be heard nowadays in the great tent." ... ... CHICAGO TRIBUNE--Proquest hasn't done anything on the Los Angeles Times all year. Still at 1968. On more year to a "slam dunk" and "point guard," and almost at "granola" and "California roll." No movement at all....Meanwhile, the Chicago Tribune digitization now appears to have some of 1964, and then it skips to 1968 and 1969. It's now ahead of the LA Times! ... ... ... BIG DANCE: This was mentioned at the Word Origins board, and Grant Barrett mentioned his entry. We'd discussed "Big Dance" and "March Madness" before. I now see in ads this week that the NCAA clearly trademarks "The Big Dance." Some NCAA trademarks show 2000, but see the earlier NCAA trademarks below. ... (WORD ORIGINS BOARD) "The origin of "Big Dance" is seemingly lost to history, at least in terms of who first used it as a synonym for March Madness. Nevertheless, the NCAA trademarked the phrase in 2000." ...... _http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/big_dance/_ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/big_dance/) ... .. _Colgate, to the Big Dance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=115848264&SrchMode=1&sid=34&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111053 1428&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 16, 1995. p. A24 (1 page) ... 6. _Ice Tank_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=114853594&SrchMode=1&sid=34&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110531428&cl ientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1987. p. D23 (1 page) ... _Duos at the Big Dance_ Fourteen schools sent teams to both the men's and women's N.C.A.A. Division I basketball tournaments this year. ... ... (TRADEMARKS) Word Mark THE BIG DANCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 028. US 022 023 038 050. G & S: toys and sporting goods, namely, basketballs, miniature basketballs, miniature basketballs, backboards and miniature backboards, all in connection with intercollegiate basketball games and intercollegiate basketball tournaments Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75468617 Filing Date April 15, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition March 30, 1999 Owner (APPLICANT) National Collegiate Athletic Association, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERISITES KANSAS 6201 College Boulevard Overland Park KANSAS 66211 Attorney of Record DANIEL L. BOOTS Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date June 23, 2002 ... ... Word Mark THE BIG DANCE Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: entertainment services in the nature of intercollegiate basketball games and intercollegiate basketball tournaments. FIRST USE: 20000300. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20000300 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75468619 Filing Date April 15, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Published for Opposition April 13, 1999 Registration Number 2480288 Registration Date August 21, 2001 Owner (REGISTRANT) National Collegiate Athletic Association, The UNINCORPORATED ASSOCIATION INDIANA P.O. Box 6222 Indianapolis INDIANA 462066222 Attorney of Record Douglas N. Masters Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 11 10:07:12 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:07:12 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Jonathan Lighterwrote: >Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >"geek" often does. > Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about the chicken bit. But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does lack). Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement (as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 10:15:03 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:15:03 EST Subject: Lemon Cake rhyme (1894); Saratoga Potatoes; Parker House Rolls Message-ID: The "peanut butter" in this food article turns out to be a false hit. Anyway, the "lemon cake rhyme" is worth posting. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_ ... _BEST HOME COOKING.; "Daily Hints" Are Popular With Women Readers. "Questions Asked and Answered" Prove a Hit in the Recipe Department. "True and Tried" Still Doming In From Clever Women of New England. Daily Hints to Housekeepers. BLANK MANGE Read Carefully. Making a Lemon Pic Delicious Chocolate Cake. Up to Date Success." Nice Loaf Cake. Chocolete Cake. Fruit Cake Two Good Cakes. Snow Pudding. Nice Wedding Cake. Gingerbread Without an Egg Good Coffee. Finnan Haddie. Baked Haddock with Tomato Dressing More Explicit Directions. Frosted Lemon Ple. Cake to Keep Molst, Etc. She Can Make Doughnuts Now. Confectioner Frosting. Golden Rod Kisses Wanted. Recipes and Requests. Lemon Cake and Rhyme. Answers Given. Raised Mother's Cake. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=570611462&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa me=HNP&TS=1110533754&clientId=65882) Boston. Dec 13, 1894. p. 8 (1 page) ... _Lemon Cake and Rhyme._ ... Five cups of flour, White and clean; One cup of butter, Nothing mean; Six new-laid eggs, Well buttered up; Enough of milk To fill one cup; One lemon, large, Two, if small; Sugar, three cups, To sweeten all; Teaspoonful of soda, add; Rich lemon cake Will then be had. Bake it in pans To please the eye. Round or oblong, Should you try; Then one thing note, Without surprise; The more you make, The less the size. ... I took this from the Boston Olive Branch more than 50 years ago. It has been my favorite cake for a great many years. Mrs. H. N. M. Ashmont. ... ... (The poem dates to the 1840s?--ed.) ... ... ... SARATOGA POTATOES ... ... The digitized Atlanta Constitution is earliest on ProQuest. ... ... _Georgia Gossip.; Dalton Citizen. Washington Gazette. Rockdale Register. Quitman Reporter. Maffetta Journal. Lawrenceville Herald. Waynesboro Expositor. Covington Enterprise. MARRIED IN GEORGIA. DIED IN GEORGIA. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=528553122&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType= PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110534752&clientId=65882) The Constitution (1875-1876). Atlanta, Ga.: Jul 8, 1876. p. 3 (1 page) ... Washington Gazette. ... Dr. Holland has taken the Washington hotel and advertise thus: ... "Holland's Washington hotel--on the tooth plan--the only plan superior to the European plan. Beefstake (sic) with or without onions. Saratoga potatoes, French coffee, iced tea, peanuts on toast, frogged chicken, etc., etc. Music three times a fay! Teeth examined before each meal! ... I price my victuals to suit the times, So when you come bring me your dimes!" ... ... ... PARKER HOUSE ROLLS ... Nothing definitive and early in the Boston Globe. The next OED revision will have what? ... ... _AMATEUR COOKERY.; The Newest Notion of the Pretty Girls of Boston. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=522028462&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=P ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110535447&clientId=65882) The Atlanta Constitution (1869-1875). Atlanta, Ga.: Sep 18, 1873. p. 0_2 (1 page) ... >From the Boston Post. (...) "Parker house rolls! Who is up to that, I wonder?" From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM Fri Mar 11 11:49:54 2005 From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 05:49:54 -0600 Subject: serviette Message-ID: I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. J. Nihart From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Fri Mar 11 12:00:13 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:00:13 +0000 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <200503111150.j2BBo1lq009002@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: Here in the UK, back in the '40s (before my time), there was a comedy routine utilising internal vowel switches, with the resulting phrase: double-damask danner nipkips (dinner napkins, of course). Just wouldn't work with 'serviette'. --Neil Crawford From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Fri Mar 11 12:01:19 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:01:19 +0800 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <20050311115000.BF94B2526@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: > I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a = > serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun > = > calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A = > serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. > J. Nihart I speak French at home with my wife. We live in a French-speaking village the Swiss Alps. A few minutes ago, I pointed at a napkin and asked her to tell me what it was. She said "serviette." In English I'd never say serviette. Then again, I'm not British. (Incidentally, in Switzerland a serviette is a napkin. In France it's usually a towel. The Swiss say "linge" when they mean towel.) Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:01:17 2005 From: s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko S. Mufwene) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:01:17 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <004801c52630$717cb0d0$c6c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: >I have spoken French and English all my life and have never asked for a >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In French a Cajun >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second syllable). A >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. >J. Nihart I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' is "serviette." I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a native speaker, and she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier thread of your remark?... Sali. ********************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene ********************************************************** From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 14:09:21 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:09:21 -0800 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've only ever heard it as plain CH, so I was perplexed. --- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > Just idle speculation as to what would happen if > the "standard" > measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in > "move that over just a > red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH > (blonde cunt hair). > > A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a > blonde hair (peroxide, > Baywatch). > > Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I > usually amuse myself. > > Bill > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed > Keer > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Ed Keer > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the > joke. > > Help? > > > > --- "Mullins, Bill" > wrote: > > > Not to mention that switching would require that > the National > > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, > formerly the National > > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to > dissolve its "Henna > > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration > standards ready > > to report to > > > field sites all over America, and replace it > with a "Peroxide > > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and > otherwise brought up to > > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out > of the Primary > > > Standards repository and replaced with > "Baywatch". > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: American Dialect Society > > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > > > Jonathan Lighter > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the > mail > > > header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have > been > > > the > > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. > Any > > > switch to the > > > > BCH standard would require extensive > industrial > > > recalibration > > > > that could result in a slowing of economic > growth. > > > > > > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many > > > years ago. > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > James C Stalker wrote: > > > > ---------------------- Information from the > mail > > > header > > > > ----------------------- > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > Poster: James C Stalker > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: > > > > > > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." > > > > > > > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 14:19:37 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:19:37 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. Ed --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > wrote: > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > almost included it as a > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > appeared in the later > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > closely than nerd does, in > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > again, nobody else seems to > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > gorse/furze (whin). > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > with "nerd", not "dork". > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > and "nerd" have been > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > terms has become more > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > melioration, no doubt > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > (an expression > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > al.) "Geek" has > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > the article in the > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > retailer Best Buy: > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > attributed to their deployment > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > techies who work as "agents" > assisting befuddled customers. > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > chic": > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > --Ben Zimmer > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 14:44:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:44:24 -0500 Subject: Synonymy avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've only ever heard it as plain CH, so I was >perplexed. I'm with Ed on this. I've heard only CH and, till now, I'd also read only CH, -Wilson > >--- "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> Just idle speculation as to what would happen if >> the "standard" >> measurement unit, an RCH, (red cunt hair -- as in >> "move that over just a >> red cunt hair") were to be replaced with a BCH >> (blonde cunt hair). >> >> A red hair (henna, I Love Lucy) is thicker than a >> blonde hair (peroxide, >> Baywatch). >> >> Sorry if my sense of humor is too murky. Well, I >> usually amuse myself. >> >> Bill >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: American Dialect Society >> > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed >> Keer >> > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:15 AM >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > Poster: Ed Keer >> > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > ----------------- >> > >> > Ok, I'd love to laugh, but I'm not getting the >> joke. >> > Help? >> > >> > --- "Mullins, Bill" >> wrote: >> > > Not to mention that switching would require that >> the National >> > > Institute of Standards and Technology, (NIST, >> formerly the National >> > > Bureau of Standards, or NBS) would have to >> dissolve its "Henna >> > > Division", a cadre of mobile calibration >> standards ready >> > to report to >> > > field sites all over America, and replace it >> with a "Peroxide >> > > Squadron", who would need to be trained and >> otherwise brought up to >> > > speed. Plus, "I Love Lucy" would be pulled out >> of the Primary >> > > Standards repository and replaced with >> "Baywatch". >> > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: American Dialect Society >> > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> > > Jonathan Lighter >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:36 AM >> > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the >> mail >> > > header >> > > > ----------------------- > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > > > > > > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > ----------------- >> > > > >> > > > Technically, yes. But the RCH appears to have >> been >> > > the >> > > > accepted measure for at least sixty years. >> Any >> > > switch to the >> > > > BCH standard would require extensive >> industrial >> > > recalibration >> > > > that could result in a slowing of economic >> growth. >> > > > >> > > > Cf. the ill-fated attempt to "go metric" many >> > > years ago. >> > > > >> > > > JL >> > > > >> > > > James C Stalker wrote: >> > > > ---------------------- Information from the >> mail >> > > header >> > > > ----------------------- >> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > > > Poster: James C Stalker >> > > > Subject: Re: Synonymy avoidance >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >-------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > ----------------- >> > > > >> > > > But isn't an RCH bigger than a BCH? >> > > > >> > > > Jim >> > > > >> > > > Jonathan Lighter writes: >> > > > >> > > > > Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer "RCH." >> > > > > >> > > > > JL >> > > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > __________________________________ >> > Do you Yahoo!? >> > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:47:54 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. sally From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 14:49:48 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:49:48 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <004801c52630$717cb0d0$c6c73ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5> Message-ID: I'll be sure to pass that information along to my grandmother-in-law. sod From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 14:52:18 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:52:18 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: I've heard dork as a term for penis, but never heard geek or nerd (although all of them can roughly be synonym to dick, as in "you're a dick/dork/geek/etc."). > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael McKernan > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:07 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Jonathan Lighterwrote: > > >Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live > chickens" > >and "geek" often does. > > > > Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, > in 'natural speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a > gross exaggeration, and that the great majority of > speakers/writers using geek have no idea about the chicken bit. > > But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > > And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a > positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word > just too dorky? > > I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of > geek, dork, nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair > has a greater affinity due to a tendency to elevate them into > positive status (which AFAIK, dork does lack). > > Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since > I've just experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a > Vonage online advertisement (as partially noted in my > original post). My curiousity, however, need not match > anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > > Michael McKernan > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 15:18:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:18:42 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >>"geek" often does. >> > >Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural >speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and >that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about >the chicken bit. > >But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > >And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition >or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? Well, here's an "other comment." I first heard "dork" in 1959 while serving in the Army at Fort Leonard Wood, MO. The speaker was a G.I. named Gewinner who came from somewhere in Illinois. He used the word "dork" with "penis" as its only meaning. If that's dork's original meaning, perhaps - I'm stabbing in the dark [pun intended; "dork" and "dark" fall together as "dark" in St. Louis, where I grew up] here - perhaps that somehow blocks its complete melioration. -Wilson > >I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, >nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due >to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does >lack). > >Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just >experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement >(as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not >match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > >Michael McKernan From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 15:34:51 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:34:51 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink Message-ID: Yes, it is a Scotticism, though I wonder if it came over here. It appears in the following children's rhyme, which my first wife (from Blackburn, West Lothian) was fond of: "Skinny malinky long legs, big banana feet Went tae the pictures an couldnae find a seat When the picture started Skinny malinky farted Skinny malinky long legs, big banana feet" This is a 20c. rhyme, obviously, but I wonder if there are American equivalents. Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Skilligimink > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Skilligimink > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >what's "skinnamarink"? > > This means a thin person. This appears in DARE under "skinny malink" and I > think in OED under "skinny". There are other spellings. Supposedly it's a > Scotticism. > > -- Doug Wilson From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 11 15:51:58 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:51:58 -0600 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20050311075747.01778010@imap.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: 'Seviette' is traditional for 'napkin' in English-speaking Canada and is still quite common, especially for the paper kind. Nobody ever blinks if I ask for a serviette in an eatery in Saskatoon (in the middle of the Prairies). This is true even of young servers, so regardless of which term they themselves use, it's obviously totally familiar to them. I also see it in print from time to time and hear other people of varying ages use the term too. However, 'napkin' is probably more common now, across the country as a whole. As for French use in Canada: an old (1962) Canadian French-English dictionary I have, produced by the Lexicographic Research Centre of the University of Montreal, gives 'table napkin' as the first sense of Fr. 'serviette'. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Salikoko S. Mufwene > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:01 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: serviette > > > At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: > >I have spoken French and English all my life and have > never asked for a > >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In > French a Cajun > >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second > syllable). A > >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. > >J. Nihart > > I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' > is "serviette." > I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a > native speaker, and > she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French > reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier > thread of your > remark?... > > Sali. > > ********************************************************** > Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu > Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor > University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX > 773-834-0924 > Department of Linguistics > 1010 East 59th Street > Chicago, IL 60637 > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene > ********************************************************** --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Fri Mar 11 15:57:56 2005 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Lemay) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:57:56 +0000 Subject: serviette Message-ID: An exchange from the 1939 Three Stooges film "Three Sappy People": The Countess: "I dropped my serviette." Curly: "Here, have half of mine." (gallantly tearing his napkin in two) The Countess: "Thank yaw." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:01:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:01:38 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and "nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a "geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who discovered the fact ? JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. Ed --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > wrote: > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > almost included it as a > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > appeared in the later > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > closely than nerd does, in > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > again, nobody else seems to > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > gorse/furze (whin). > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > with "nerd", not "dork". > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > and "nerd" have been > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > terms has become more > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > melioration, no doubt > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > (an expression > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > al.) "Geek" has > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > the article in the > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > retailer Best Buy: > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > attributed to their deployment > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > techies who work as "agents" > assisting befuddled customers. > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > chic": > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > --Ben Zimmer > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:04:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:04:09 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600, Sally O. Donlon wrote: >I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek >reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed >out, but heavily offended because to them it means the >really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- >grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. As a reasonably well-read child in the '70s and '80s, I hardly ever came across the carnival-performer sense of "geek". I remember being a little perplexed when I listened carefully to Bob Dylan's "Ballad of a Thin Man": You hand in your ticket And you go watch the geek Who immediately walks up to you When he hears you speak And says, "How does it feel To be such a freak?" And you say, "Impossible" As he hands you a bone. That was probably my first exposure to the term. Later on I heard it in the Ramones song "I'm Against It" (from their 1978 _Road to Ruin_ album): "I don't like Jesus freaks, I don't like circus geeks." And I think I came across the expression "geek show", though it wasn't clear to me that it meant anything different from "freak show". (My primary source of knowledge on old-fashioned circus freaks, Tod Browning's cult film _Freaks_, did not feature any chicken-head-biting geeks, to the best of my recollection.) --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:04:10 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:04:10 -0500 Subject: serviette In-Reply-To: <003401c52652$41b853a0$6a8ba58e@vneufeldt> Message-ID: If y'all go to Jack Chambers' dialect topography site at the University of Toronto ya'll can see the results of research into just such questions from across Canada. http://dialect.topography.chass.utoronto.ca/dt_results.php For example, in the Golden Horseshoe, "napkin" was preferred by 69% of the respondents, serviette by only 13%; in the Ottawa Valley, the figures were 60% to 18% in favor of "napkin." dInIs >'Seviette' is traditional for 'napkin' in English-speaking Canada and >is still quite common, especially for the paper kind. Nobody ever >blinks if I ask for a serviette in an eatery in Saskatoon (in the >middle of the Prairies). This is true even of young servers, so >regardless of which term they themselves use, it's obviously totally >familiar to them. I also see it in print from time to time and hear >other people of varying ages use the term too. However, 'napkin' is >probably more common now, across the country as a whole. > >As for French use in Canada: an old (1962) Canadian French-English >dictionary I have, produced by the Lexicographic Research Centre of >the University of Montreal, gives 'table napkin' as the first sense of >Fr. 'serviette'. > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >> Of Salikoko S. Mufwene >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:01 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: serviette >> >> >> At 05:49 AM 3/11/2005 -0600, J. Nihart wrote: >> >I have spoken French and English all my life and have >> never asked for a >> >serviette in any restaurant. A serviette is a towel . In >> French a Cajun >> >calls a paper napkin "a Nap- kin "(accent on the second >> syllable). A >> >serviette is either a wash cloth or a dish towel. >> >J. Nihart >> >> I grew up a Francophone and the term I learned for 'napkin' >> is "serviette." >> I just checked again with a Parisian friend of mine, a >> native speaker, and >> she says the term is serviette. Could it be that (your) Cajun French >> reflects English influence? Or maybe I missed an earlier >> thread of your >> remark?... >> >> Sali. >> >> ********************************************************** >> Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene at uchicago.edu >> Frank J. McLoraine Distinguished Service Professor >> University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX >> 773-834-0924 >> Department of Linguistics >> 1010 East 59th Street >> Chicago, IL 60637 >> http://humanities.uchicago.edu/faculty/mufwene >> ********************************************************** > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 16:06:17 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:06:17 -0600 Subject: big cup of . . . Message-ID: Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: "Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# 111016501481915117 Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" Are there others? From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:13:14 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <20050311160139.43707.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. "Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Remember, there are no such real things as languages. dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) >Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and >"nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also >means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a >"geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." > >Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are >indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who >discovered the fact ? > >JL > >Ed Keer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed >a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > >Ed > > >--- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan >> wrote: >> >> >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I >> almost included it as a >> >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually >> appeared in the later >> >text of the online ad which prompted my post). >> > >> >But whadabout dork? >> > >> >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more >> closely than nerd does, in >> >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then >> again, nobody else seems to >> >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to >> gorse/furze (whin). >> >> I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns >> with "nerd", not "dork". >> "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" >> and "nerd" have been >> subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both >> terms has become more >> prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic >> melioration, no doubt >> inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ >> (an expression >> subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et >> al.) "Geek" has >> followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness >> the article in the >> latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics >> retailer Best Buy: >> >> >http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html >> >> Part of Best Buy's recent success has been >> attributed to their deployment >> of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable >> techies who work as "agents" >> assisting befuddled customers. >> >> See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek >> chic": >> >> >http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:15:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:15:55 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ha ! Teen discomfiture is one of the highest aims of education, I always say ! JL "Sally O. Donlon" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Sally O. Donlon" Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. sally --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Mar 11 16:18:54 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:18:54 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Yes, it was the only real fun I ever had as a Scout Leader. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:16 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Ha ! Teen discomfiture is one of the highest aims of > education, I always say ! > > JL > > "Sally O. Donlon" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Sally O. Donlon" > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy > avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the > geek reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not > only grossed out, but heavily offended because to them it means the > really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- > grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. > > sally > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:19:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:19:25 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The limited evidence suggests that "dick" was indeed the original meaning of "dork," presumably during the late 40s. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Sorry, but "dork" never means "guy who bites heads off live chickens" and >>"geek" often does. >> > >Often? Historically, of course, I would agree. But today, in 'natural >speech', I would suppose that 'often' would be a gross exaggeration, and >that the great majority of speakers/writers using geek have no idea about >the chicken bit. > >But perhaps I'm wrong, I've been so before... > >And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition >or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky? Well, here's an "other comment." I first heard "dork" in 1959 while serving in the Army at Fort Leonard Wood, MO. The speaker was a G.I. named Gewinner who came from somewhere in Illinois. He used the word "dork" with "penis" as its only meaning. If that's dork's original meaning, perhaps - I'm stabbing in the dark [pun intended; "dork" and "dark" fall together as "dark" in St. Louis, where I grew up] here - perhaps that somehow blocks its complete melioration. -Wilson > >I actually don't have any personal stake in the meaning of geek, dork, >nerd; and it may well be that the geek/nerd pair has a greater affinity due >to a tendency to elevate them into positive status (which AFAIK, dork does >lack). > >Still, I find the trio quite interesting, especially since I've just >experienced their appearance as a duo/trio in a Vonage online advertisement >(as partially noted in my original post). My curiousity, however, need not >match anyone else's, though I'll match my ignorance against all comers... > >Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:26:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:26:48 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: "Y'all" can be used in the singular and "you guys" can't. Moreover, "y'all" is heavily marked a s Southern, while "you guys" isn't. "Y'all" is one syllable, but "you guys" is two. (Am not certain of the regional distribution of "gorse" and "furze," or how strongly marked they are for regionality.) JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. "Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Remember, there are no such real things as languages. dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) >Google says that some nerds do have wads after all. "Geek" and >"nerd" are closer, I think, than "geek" and "dork." ("Dork" also >means "penis" and "geek" does not.) However, a "nerd" need not be a >"geek" in the computer sense. A "nerd" need only be a "drip." > >Any other challengers to "gorse" and "furze"? Anf if they are >indeed the only exact synonyms in English, who is the genius who >discovered the fact ? > >JL > >Ed Keer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Ed Keer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed >a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > >Ed > > >--- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan >> wrote: >> >> >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I >> almost included it as a >> >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually >> appeared in the later >> >text of the online ad which prompted my post). >> > >> >But whadabout dork? >> > >> >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more >> closely than nerd does, in >> >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then >> again, nobody else seems to >> >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to >> gorse/furze (whin). >> >> I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns >> with "nerd", not "dork". >> "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" >> and "nerd" have been >> subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both >> terms has become more >> prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic >> melioration, no doubt >> inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ >> (an expression >> subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et >> al.) "Geek" has >> followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness >> the article in the >> latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics >> retailer Best Buy: >> >> >http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html >> >> Part of Best Buy's recent success has been >> attributed to their deployment >> of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable >> techies who work as "agents" >> assisting befuddled customers. >> >> See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek >> chic": >> >> >http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:28:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example (where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Remember, there are no such real things as languages. exactly; this was my (attempted) point with the (admittedly imperfect) "hella"/"wicked" example earlier in the week >dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) > agreed on this too L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:29:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:29:33 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's dialect. --Ben Zimmer From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:31:39 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:31:39 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <36960.69.142.143.59.1110557049.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Luckily (?) for me, I had three older brothers who seemingly knew everything. They were particularly knowledgeable about, and willing to share, the gross stuff. sod From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:31:31 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:31:31 EST Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY is much much worse. I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, "Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. "If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. "I liked the fish because it was greasy." Only if you like a lot of oil on your food. I guess one might write a recipe in which one said something like, "Use enough butter on the baked potato that it is slightly greasy," but I could not say that without the "slightly." Is DInIs alone in this, or am I behind the greasy/greazy curve. In a message dated 3/11/05 11:13:49 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:32:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:32:17 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:28:36 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >>"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >>called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >>bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >>begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >>"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Beat me to it by about a minute! Gotta post fast around here. --Ben Zimmer From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:34:12 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:34:12 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Collegiate=20"geek"?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20in=20the=20'70s=20(was=20Re:=20Synonymy=20avoidance)?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 11:27:10 AM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > "Y'all" can be used in the singular and "you guys" can't.? > Or so some people think. From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:40:01 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:40:01 -0600 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <1a6.337c7274.2f6321e3@aol.com> Message-ID: I've grown up with positive connotations over "greazy." My father always complained that my mother's cooking wasn't "greazy" (or salty) enough. He cooked cajun food like nobody's business and she was from the Northeast and could make a mean pot of corned beef and cabbage. Also, when traveling I always prefer to stop in the local "greazy spoon" cafe for meals, rather than a slick chain venue. This is particularly true for Tex-Mex in the U.S. sod From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:41:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:41:37 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:13 AM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example (where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Remember, there are no such real things as languages. exactly; this was my (attempted) point with the (admittedly imperfect) "hella"/"wicked" example earlier in the week >dInIs (who is happy to admit them as social constructs of enormous importance) > agreed on this too L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:41:57 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:41:57 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:31:31 EST, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time >that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed >as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY >is much much worse. > >I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, >"Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. > >"If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ. Their motto was: "No charge for extra grease." (I even had the T-shirt.) Covert prestige, that. Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994. But do Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 16:42:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:42:23 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Like "pail" and "bucket." JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's dialect. --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:43:23 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:43:23 EST Subject: napkins and serviettes Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 12:38:29 AM, paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU writes: > Serviette does sound silly in American English. In British English and > in French it sounds perfectly natural. > And in Spanish as well. In Mexico, at any rate, one uses a servilleta at table, a toalla after the shower, and pa?al on the baby's bottom. From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:15:02 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:15:02 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: I feel like one of these informants in the Survey of Irish Dialects who hadn't actually spoken Irish in 70 years, but were the last who had in their area, but I can try to recapture the '70s definition in University of Michigan Quaddie language, circa '70: GEEK we didn't use much, but the frat crowd did (sometimes of people like us)--it really was still rather close to the carnie definition, in that a geek was someone who was definitely weird and gross with it. We had a guy in our college who didn't wash or change his sheets for six months, and excelled at grossing out people in other (sometimes quite creative) ways too--he would be a geek. NERD/NURD wasn't a techie, as now, or someone who studied all the time; quite the opposite, in some ways. It denoted a person who was kind of dumb and "out of it", but that was the way they were, they couldn't help it. I remember entitling a certain President who had gone to U of M "Gerry Nerd" because of the facility he had for falling out of plane exits, not because of his intelligence. DORK was different. A dork was "out of it" too, but they COULD help it--rather like a jerk in General American parlance. A dork would run into you in the hallway, knock you down and run on his way because he wanted to get in the last seat in the TV room during the World Series ahead of you. A nerd might knock you down, but that was because he was daydreaming about some girl that he didn't have a hope of getting near, and didn't see you. (Trying to get into the 20-yr-old's mindset here). We didn't have dorkwads and geekwads--I think they might have come to Ann Arbor later, but we sure had shitwads and fuckwads, who were even more malicious than dorks. If we knew one, we used to say that the Michigan dorms were East Quad (hence "Quaddie"), South Quad, West Quad, and Fuck Quad, the last being that guy's apartment. I can't remember what the term was for what we call a nerd today. The engineers we shared a dorm with (who you could tell by their crew cuts, slide rules and white socks) were simply "engines". The only term that sounds like my old vocab was "swot", and that comes from my U. of Edinburgh graduate school days later on. Things like "grade grubber" were around, but that's not quite the same thing. Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Keer" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ed Keer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > But don't forget that the geekwads and dorkwads formed > a historic wad alliance. While the nerds have no wad. > > Ed > > > --- Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:46:39 -0500, Michael McKernan > > wrote: > > > > >Good to see nerd/nurd appear in this thread. I > > almost included it as a > > >'whin' analog in my geek/dork post (and it actually > > appeared in the later > > >text of the online ad which prompted my post). > > > > > >But whadabout dork? > > > > > >As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more > > closely than nerd does, in > > >all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then > > again, nobody else seems to > > >be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to > > gorse/furze (whin). > > > > I would say that in current usage, "geek" aligns > > with "nerd", not "dork". > > "Dork" is invariably pejorative, while both "geek" > > and "nerd" have been > > subject to melioration as the "techie" sense of both > > terms has become more > > prominent. "Nerd" was first to undergo ironic > > melioration, no doubt > > inspired by the 1986 movie _Revenge of the Nerds_ > > (an expression > > subsequently applied to the success of Bill Gates et > > al.) "Geek" has > > followed the meliorative path of "nerd"-- witness > > the article in the > > latest _Time Magazine_ on the consumer-electronics > > retailer Best Buy: > > > > > http://www.time.com/time/insidebiz/article/0,9171,1034713,00.html > > > > Part of Best Buy's recent success has been > > attributed to their deployment > > of "the Geek Squad", an army of knowledgeable > > techies who work as "agents" > > assisting befuddled customers. > > > > See also this 2003 _USA Today_ article on "geek > > chic": > > > > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-10-22-geek-chic_x.htm > > > > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 16:50:13 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:50:13 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20GREAZY=20and=20GREA?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?SY?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 11:42:36 AM, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as > "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ.? Their motto was: "No charge for > extra grease."? (I even had the T-shirt.)? Covert prestige, that. > > Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, > AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994.? But do > Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? > These are obviously ironic uses of "greasy." I doubt that people reading Tony's sign think (with Dennis)--ah! this food must be lightly and delicately oiled! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:50:31 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:50:31 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Mar 11 16:59:30 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:59:30 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA821@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: This was a popular meme a while back, post-9-11, often represented as "a (big) (steaming) cup of STFU" which is an acronym for "shut the fuck up," and usually featuring an image of a smiling helmeted soldier hoisting a tin cup. You can find a lot of variations by doing a Google image search for "stfu" (though be warned that some of the results will be unsafe for work): http://images.google.com/images?q=stfu Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 11, 2005, at 11:06, Mullins, Bill wrote: > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: > "Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > > http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/ > 2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# > 111016501481915117 > > Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > > Are there others? > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 11 16:59:14 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:15:02 -0500, Paul Johnston wrote: >I can't remember what the term was for what we call a nerd today. The >engineers we shared a dorm with (who you could tell by their crew cuts, >slide rules and white socks) were simply "engines". The only term that >sounds like my old vocab was "swot", and that comes from my U. of Edinburgh >graduate school days later on. Things like "grade grubber" were around, but >that's not quite the same thing. How about "grind"? Or "wonk"? Or "weenie"? --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 17:02:03 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:02:03 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <82.23a3bb20.2f632645@aol.com> Message-ID: I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems to be my requirement for such usage. dInIs >In a message dated 3/11/05 11:42:36 AM, bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU writes: > > >> Ah, then you never had the pleasure of eating at the sub shop known as >> "Greasy Tony's" in New Brunswick, NJ. Their motto was: "No charge for >> extra grease." (I even had the T-shirt.) Covert prestige, that. >> >> Checking online, I see that "Greasy Tony's" was transplanted to Tucscon, >> AZ after the New Brunswick establishment was torn down in 1994. But do >> Arizonans appreciate the joys of grease as intensely as New Jerseyans? >> > >These are obviously ironic uses of "greasy." I doubt that people reading >Tony's sign think (with Dennis)--ah! this food must be lightly and delicately >oiled! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 17:02:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:02:46 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But one nut doth not a universal make. Any further evidence of this distinction ? JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 17:17:49 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:17:49 EST Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 12:02:25 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as > some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my > earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease > I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, > sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both > situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems > to be my requirement for such usage. > > dInIs > > Thanks for the clarification. What about IN you? "Lightly and delicately oiled" sounded to me like my friend Mack O'Barr's Italian salads, made with a little fine olive oil, a touch of lemon juice, and some sea salt. (And lettuce, of course.) I have eaten many fine meals with DInIs (and the lovely Mrs. Preston), and the subject of his greasy hands has never come up, so maybe I just naturally think of him in the context of food rather than axles and sewing machines. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 11 18:18:31 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Out of curiosity how many of you have ever met a geek in the carnival sideshow sense of the word? I've known quite a few in my peregrinations around the planet Earth and we were friends including the man who introduced me to geekery who used to stick pins and needles through his cheeks but really wowed the audience when he sewed buttons on his chest although his real specialty was getting blown up by dynamite. A few months ago I appeared on local TV show in order to disabuse the audience of any notion that Sufis had some special religious powers which allowed them to quickly heal after they had driven nails into their heads, etc. and the best line I could come up off the top of my head (no pun intended) was that it had nothing whatsoever to do with religion and magical healing because they were not doing anything I had not seen in that hotbed of religious belief the carnival sideshow. Geekery if you want to call it that has been a mainstay of sideshows for hundreds of years and still exists in more mainstream magical shows. Don't believe me then watch Penn and Teller some time since both of them play the part of the geek in their performances although Teller is the primary geek in their act. When I was in grade school we used to do little geek acts such as sticking pins and needles through our hands or pouring hot wax on them in order to gross out our friends. It looks bad but if you do it right it doesn't hurt any more than sewing buttons on your chest does if you do it right. I would tell you how to eat a lightbulb or to set yourself on fire or even to eat fire except that if you didn't follow my instructions exactly and did it wrong and got hurt you might sue me. Just let me tell you that it is possible to perform such feats without harming yourself, and I will leave it at that. The easiest feats, of course, are to walk across a bed of hot coals or to have someone break a slab of rock while your are lying on a bed of nails. Page Stephens From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:31:44 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:31:44 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <36201.69.142.143.59.1110558573.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 11:29 AM -0500 3/11/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. Preston >wrote: > >>The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to varieties, not languages. >>"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms in the fiction >>called "English," but they don't co-exist in one brain (except for >>bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal speakers are quick to >>begin to make distinctions, as I do now for "greazy" and "greasy." >>"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > >Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New York informants >pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? Regional variants >that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be reintensionalized (as >the semanticists might say) to mean different things within one speaker's >dialect. > And in fact this process was first (to my knowledge) defined (as the "law of differentiation") by the coiner of the term "semantics" himself, Michel Br?al (_Semantics_, 1896, trans. 1900). Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:37:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:37:37 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <0db516e5ac0db7fa81a96478e007a9d9@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0600 3/11/05, Sally O. Donlon wrote: >I've grown up with positive connotations over "greazy." > >My father always complained that my mother's cooking wasn't "greazy" >(or salty) enough. He cooked cajun food like nobody's business and she >was from the Northeast and could make a mean pot of corned beef and >cabbage. > >Also, when traveling I always prefer to stop in the local "greazy >spoon" cafe for meals, rather than a slick chain venue. This is >particularly true for Tex-Mex in the U.S. > And in the northeast, where only the pronunciation (at least the only one I grew up with) is "GREASY", the greasy spoon can also be a positive designation, although as Ron would point out irony is involved. I've always thought [+ greasy] to be a positive evaluation for french fries, although not for e.g. tempura. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:45:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:45:40 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <20050311164137.59961.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:41 AM -0800 3/11/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does >anybody(except a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >JL several students in my undergraduate "Words and Meaning" class did; that's where I first learned about it L From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 18:53:05 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:53:05 -0500 Subject: Winter Salad Bowl; Camelust Message-ID: CAMELUST--Only one hit, in this week's New York Observer,pg. 9, cols. 2-3 caption: Hillary Gets Hot, But For Democrats She?s Lose-Lose ... to entertain what has become a fairly obvious possibility: that, in some respects, this is simply the latest manifestation of Camelust?the tendency (known in ... www.observer.com/pages/frontpage3.asp - 22k - Mar 9, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages ...Camelust: the tendency to mistake political star power for political power. WINTER SALAD BOWL--Gotta do all food city nicknames. >From the Wall Street Journal, 11 March 2005, pg. 1, cols. 4-5: _As Border Tightens, Growers See_ _Threat to "Winter Salad Bowl"_ Pg. A8, col. 5: Between November and March, 90% of the leafy vegetables produced in the U.S., including broccoli and cauliflower, originate here, giving Yuma the nickname of the nation's "winter salad bowl." Back to parking tickets. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 18:57:53 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:57:53 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >to be my requirement for such usage. > A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:04:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:04:16 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How very interesting! I've never known till now that there was a distinction. I have only GREAZY. I've also been aware since I was in my 20's - from the late '50's to the early '60's - that there existed an alternative pronunciation, GREASY. But this is the first that I've heard tell of the fact that there are some people that use both forms and that there is a semantic distinction between the two forms for such people. I guess that segregation took better than I realized. "There's a a fungus among us. So, take it easy, greasy. You got a long way to slide." -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM >Subject: GREAZY and GREASY >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I have known about the greasy/greazy distinction, but this is the first time >that I have even heard GREASY defined this way. I have always heard it framed >as, in essence, GREASY is unpleasantly covered with grease or oil, and GREAZY >is much much worse. > >I can't imagine going into a restaurant anywhere in the country and asking, >"Is your food greasy?" and getting a positive response. > >"If you want greasy food, come to our restaurant?" No. > >"I liked the fish because it was greasy." Only if you like a lot of oil on >your food. > >I guess one might write a recipe in which one said something like, "Use >enough butter on the baked potato that it is slightly greasy," but I >could not say >that without the "slightly." > >Is DInIs alone in this, or am I behind the greasy/greazy curve. > >In a message dated 3/11/05 11:13:49 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes: > > > > "Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and delicately oiled. > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:10:22 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:10:22 -0500 Subject: Skilligimink In-Reply-To: <20050311050112.32970B2479@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: The closest I know to "skinnamarink" is as a nonsense word in the chorus of a song about Dives and Lazarus. Here's how it begins: There was a rich man and he lived in Jerusalem, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. He wore a top hat and his coat was very sprucium, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. Hi-ro-jerum, hey, hi-ro-jerum, hey! Skinnamarinky doodlium, skinnamarinky doodlium, Glory hallelujah, hi-ro-jerum. -- Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:14:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:14:34 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm afraid that you're just too young, Ben. If you'd been around in the '40's and '50's, said ruination of a perfectly good word would trigger a slight feeling of annoyance every time that you came across it in its new (to you) usage. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 08:47:54 -0600, Sally O. Donlon >wrote: > >>I told my middle school daughter and her friends about the geek >>reference to biting off chicken heads and they were not only grossed >>out, but heavily offended because to them it means the >>really-smart-kid-who-may-be-uncool-now-but-who-everyone-knows-will- >>grow-up-to-be-another-Bill-Gates. > >As a reasonably well-read child in the '70s and '80s, I hardly ever came >across the carnival-performer sense of "geek". I remember being a little >perplexed when I listened carefully to Bob Dylan's "Ballad of a Thin Man": > >You hand in your ticket >And you go watch the geek >Who immediately walks up to you >When he hears you speak >And says, "How does it feel >To be such a freak?" >And you say, "Impossible" >As he hands you a bone. > >That was probably my first exposure to the term. Later on I heard it in >the Ramones song "I'm Against It" (from their 1978 _Road to Ruin_ album): >"I don't like Jesus freaks, I don't like circus geeks." And I think I >came across the expression "geek show", though it wasn't clear to me that >it meant anything different from "freak show". (My primary source of >knowledge on old-fashioned circus freaks, Tod Browning's cult film >_Freaks_, did not feature any chicken-head-biting geeks, to the best of my >recollection.) > > >--Ben Zimmer From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Mar 11 19:27:16 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:27:16 -0600 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: Totally off topic but, in the sixties while at school, a friend suggested that we organize all the side show geeks in one big union. He reasoned that any government would cave into our demands rather than allow TV cameras to film 5000 people marching on Washington while biting the heads off of chickens From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:11:25 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:11:25 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bagby Atwood, wasn't it? At 01:57 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>to be my requirement for such usage. >A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) > >Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:37:31 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:37:31 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311141105.01bd5600@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0500 3/11/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Bagby Atwood, wasn't it? Indeed it was. Thanks. I had the A, but I needed help with the twood. L >At 01:57 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >>A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >>greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >>classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >>who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >>anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) >> >>Larry From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 11 19:41:39 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:41:39 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a verb of course). dInIs >At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>to be my requirement for such usage. >> >A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 11 19:53:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:53:00 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > >http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >111016501481915117 > >Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in "whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring untutored Southrons as objects of derision. IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem that I bothered to remember is the first word. -Wilson > >Are there others? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 20:18:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:18:39 -0800 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike (1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old article. "Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." DIXIE Southrons, hear your country call you, Up, lest worse than death befall you! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- Let all hearts be now united! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! CHORUS: Advance the flag of Dixie! Hurrah! Hurrah! In Dixie's land we take our stand, And live or die for Dixie! To arms! To arms! And conquer peace for Dixie! To arms! To arms! And conquer peace for Dixie! Hear the Northern thunders mutter! Northern flags in South winds flutter! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Send them back your fierce defiance! Stamp upon the cursed alliance! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Fear no danger! Shun no labor! Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, Let the odds make each heart bolder! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) How the South's great heart rejoices At your cannon's ringing voices! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! For faith betrayed and pledges broken, Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Strong as lions, swift as eagles, Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Cut the unequal bonds asunder! Let them hence each other plunder! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Swear upon your country's altar Never to submit or falter-- To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Till the spoilers are defeated, Till the Lord's work is completed! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Halt not till our Federation Secures among earth's powers its station! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Then at peace and crowned with glory, Hear your children tell the story! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) If the loved ones weep in sadness, Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- (CHORUS) Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: big cup of . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" > >http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >111016501481915117 > >Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in "whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring untutored Southrons as objects of derision. IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem that I bothered to remember is the first word. -Wilson > >Are there others? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 20:34:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:34:26 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >verb of course). > >dInIs > > > >>At 12:02 PM -0500 3/11/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>I reckon I would call it greazy Tony's (not a pejorative as far as >>>some foods are concerned by the way). The light and delicate of my >>>earlier post was misleading. But if I stuck my hand into axle grease >>>I'd say it was greazy; if I picked up something which had, say, >>>sewing machine oil on it, I would say it was "greasy." Both >>>situations are "negative" (I don't want no grease on me), which seems >>>to be my requirement for such usage. >>A related distinction between food grease (greasy) and mechanical >>greaze (greazy) is one maintained by others, IIRC, as reported in the >>classic dialect-anthology paper on the topic. (Can someone remind me >>who the author is? I think his name starts with an A, but my >>anthologies aren't on me at the moment, nor is DARE.) >> >>Larry > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Mar 11 20:50:14 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:50:14 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20GREAZY=20and=20GREA?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=A0=20SY?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/11/05 3:40:25 PM, flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes: > The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > right? > "greazy" (pronounced with the z) is heard in North Carolina. I first heard someone enunciate the relationship between "greasy" and "greazy" as a matter of intensification at least 30 years ago. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 11 21:00:48 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:00:48 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311153028.03418e88@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >>verb of course). >> >>dInIs >> Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. Larry From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Fri Mar 11 21:32:04 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:32:04 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY Message-ID: [gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and [gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm not > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > > > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a > >>verb of course). > >> > >>dInIs > >> > > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. > > Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 22:16:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:16:50 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: For the record, notes jotted down on the very scene show that "nerd" was indeed in use at NYU in 1970. But it had nothing to do with technology. It was simply a person who was in some usually petty way annoying or obnoxious. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry Horn: >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) Jonathan Lighter: >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 11 22:39:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:39:49 -0800 Subject: "mock-factual" Message-ID: I find less than a dozen Gogle hits for this, but the concept seems to be chillingly useful : "State-of-the-art computer graphics integrated with mock-factual sources make for a horrifyingly realistic build-up to the eruption and the climax itself. Then the devastating aftermath across the globe is revealed ? environmentally, politically, economically and socially ? as viewers glimpse the future and a post-apocalyptic world." --bbc.co.uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/supervolcano/programme.shtml The show is an invitation to fear the paroxysmal explosion of a bubbling supervolcano under Yellowstone. Such an eruption may be inevitable within the next 100,000 years or so. "Mock-factual" appears to mean "imaginary but plausible enough for the purpose of securing viewers." Or something in that general domain. Bevare ! Take care ! JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 22:53:55 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:53:55 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <008a01c52681$c60e74c0$4ba06cc6@oemcomputer> Message-ID: I haven't heard any, but I'm not in "deep" Appalachia. At 04:32 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >[gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and >[gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? > >Paul Johnston >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Horn" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM >Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----- > > > > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and adjective, > > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I wasn't > > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm >not > > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. > > > > > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: > > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a > > >>verb of course). > > >> > > >>dInIs > > >> > > > > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under > > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure > > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. > > > > Larry From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Fri Mar 11 23:30:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:30:52 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <37961.69.142.143.59.1110559831.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: Doesn't anyone watch "Antiques Roadshow"?! At 11:50 AM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >Larry Horn: > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example > >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Jonathan Lighter: > >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > > > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except > >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that >distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic >Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 00:29:43 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:29:43 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:16:50 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >For the record, notes jotted down on the very scene show that "nerd" was >indeed in use at NYU in 1970. But it had nothing to do with technology. >It was simply a person who was in some usually petty way annoying or >obnoxious. The techie variety of "nerd"/"nurd", not surprisingly, developed at tech schools. There's evidence on this site that "nurd" was in use at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in the mid-'60s: http://home.comcast.net/~brons/NerdCorner/nerd.html See the article and photo from the Homecoming 1965 edition of RPI's humor magazine, _The Bachelor_: "Why are 61 nurds so excited?" (reprinted from: ). By the spring of 1970, "(g)nurd"/"nerd" was in common usage at MIT, clearly in a wonkish sense: ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0131_P004.pdf The Tech (MIT), Apr. 7, 1970, p. 4, col. 4 So let's settle back and take a tour of MIT, a la General Catalogue, 69/70. At MIT we have tools (p. 40) and nurds (p. 44, bottom); we also feature extra-curricular activities, but only for crew-cut-scholar-athlete- Eagle-Scout-All-American-boys (pp. 27, 28, 61). ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0216_P003.pdf The Tech (MIT), May 12, 1970, p. 3, col. 1 Fifty drug-crazed filthy hippies (Dope has ruined their minds!) gather, smoking pot, spraying paint. They are, for the most part, MIT students; some of them even have secret identities -- mild-mannered gnurds in a Great Eastern Technological University. ----- http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_090/TECH_V090_S0228_P003.pdf The Tech (MIT), May 19, 1970, p. 3, col. 1 What then does it [sc. _Technique_, MIT's yearbook] have? ... "The Nerd," a thoroughly nurdly treatment of a species with which the author obviously has empathy. ----- (Note adjectival "nurdly" in the last cite -- HDAS has "nerdly" from 1992.) --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 02:05:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:05:11 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My wife, also a New Yorker, seems always to say /ves/. She was told about 1970 that a /vaz/ cost more than $25. She too thinks of it as a joke. Maybe the notion of pronunciation related to price developed as a jest; when it was publicized, many people accepted it as true while others did not. Of the "believers," a certain percentage (few, I would guess) actually alter their native pronunciation to accord with the "rule." Others pass on the information as a "fact" of interest without consistently altering their own pronunciation. It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and "gullibility." JL Beverly Flanigan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doesn't anyone watch "Antiques Roadshow"?! At 11:50 AM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >Larry Horn: > >and similarly the classic [veys] (< $200) /[vaz] (> $200) example > >(where the latter is often taken to be more costly) > >Jonathan Lighter: > >I've always said /vaz/ even though I can't afford any. > > > >Didn't this "distinction" really start out as a joke ? Does anybody(except > >a few uptight linguists) really observe it ? > >AFAIK, Labov was serious when he mentioned a woman in New York having that >distinction. I tracked down the exact reference: it's in _Sociolinguistic >Patterns_, p. 251 (in a footnote). > > >--Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 02:22:14 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:22:14 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) Message-ID: HOOTCHIE COOTCHIE--David Shulman told me about his citation for this, from an old song. I had already been familiar with the song. Gerald Cohen can cite Comments on Etymology a little better. NURD--I think that I posted RPI's "nurd" in the old archives in 1998. I went to RPI. I was an editor of the humor magazine there. I've read every page of every humor magazine. RPI didn't coin "nurd." However, the first thing I was told, in freshman orientation, was that RPI coined "nurd," and that it was really "knurd," or "drunk" spelled backwards. That first year, the pope died. Then the pope died again. Them my dorm-mates told me that I'd been elected Pope Popik, the first member of the Pope-of-the-month-club. And I said, what happens at the end of the month? And they said, you die and we elect a new one... From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 03:43:37 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:43:37 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050311175219.02d9dcf8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: This is indeed an interesting thread. There are rare differences between Dennis and me, in language at any rate. But occasionally, the rather minor geographical difference of a few miles does make a language difference. Dennis is from southern IN, north of the Ohio River. I?m from a working class neighborhood in southern Jefferson County, outside of Louisville. I didn?t even know or notice that was a possibility in ?greasy? and the verb ?grease? until I began my grad study in Wisconsin, and that was after spending some time in New York City! I was further not aware of the qualitative difference until I read Roger Shuy?s attitude studies of the AA dialect in Detroit. I became aware of the phonological significance of the s/z distinction when my sister-in-law, from So IN, same neighborhood as Dennis more or less, but later a long time resident of So KY and AL didn?t even hear the difference when I was explaining (unsuccessfully it seems) what dialects are all about. I was telling her about the greasy/greazy line, and she responded, ?What greazy/greazy line?? I have inquired about the greasy = more positive/greazy = less positive in my classes at MSU with mixed results. Most of my students, mostly Michiganians/Michiganders, can hear the phonological difference, but it means nothing in terms of positive or negative. Greasy is greasy and it will kill you. Greazy is no worse or better. Now, in my world, a very confused one I admit, greazy is nuanced. George Foreman?s grill does not make decent pork chops. There isn?t enough grease. On the other hand, it is possible to have greazy pork chops, i. e., too much grease. So, bottom lining it here. Dennis (So IN) seems to have a distinction that I (No KY) do not have. JCS Beverly Flanigan writes: > I haven't heard any, but I'm not in "deep" Appalachia. > > At 04:32 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >> [gri:z] as a noun is usual in Scots, along with the same as a verb and >> [gri:zi] as an adjective. No Appalachian attestations? >> >> Paul Johnston >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Laurence Horn" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 4:00 PM >> Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY >> >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Laurence Horn >> > Subject: Re: GREAZY and GREA SY >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> ----- >> > >> > >The only distinction as I remember it was/is in the verb and >> adjective, >> > >right? No one, to my knowledge, pronounces the noun with /z/. I >> wasn't >> > >aware of an added semantic distinction in the adjective, but then, I'm >> not >> > >a native in these here parts. I'll now ask though. >> > > >> > >At 02:41 PM 3/11/2005, you wrote: >> > >>E. Bagby Atwood, but I don't recall a "greaze" there (except as a >> > >>verb of course). >> > >> >> > >>dInIs >> > >> >> > >> > Yes, I'm sure it was the verb and the adjective that were under >> > discussion in Atwood's paper. It's all exotic to me, but I'm sure >> > [gri:z] for the noun would have struck me as even more exotic. >> > >> > Larry > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 03:51:45 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 22:51:45 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREA SY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: but my anthologies aren't "on me" at the moment, nor is DARE.) > > Larry > Oh, my God. Are we all becoming linguistic Scrooges dragging around our anthologies and those of all of our colleagues wrapped around our necks? Perhaps our whole libraries? JCS James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Mar 12 03:22:52 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 21:22:52 -0600 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: Pretentiousness? Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and "gullibility." JL From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 04:53:35 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:53:35 -0500 Subject: "Luck is the residue of design" (1946); Bed-Stuy; SABENA Message-ID: LUCK IS THE RESIDUE OF DESIGN I saw this again in some newspaper today. The American Heritage Dictionary has "Branch Rickey, lecture title, 1950." I don't know what Fred has. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Valley Morning Star Saturday, February 16, 1946 Harlingen, Texas ...tilhei dnv Rlckpv urscil a' Irntith on RESIDUE OF DESIGN morning Ircturr tit 9.....them Rcgardloji OF the outcome OF Ih it karne though the Girds will OF.. Pg. 5, col. 1: The other day Rickey discoursed at length on "luck--the residue of design." SABENA-- Military Rule a Disaster, Says Ex-Naval Chief AllAfrica.com, Africa - Mar 10, 2005 ... 'Sabena' not the Belgian Airline, but it was a late army officer who coined the name. 'Sabena' means such a bloody experience never again in Nigeria.". ... 21 February 1946, The Sporting News, pg. 10, col. 3: _OVER--THE FENCE_ By DAN DANIEL _Deviltry Denounced at Dodger Tech_ SCENE--Lecture Hall at the Dodger Institute of Baseball Technology, Sanford, Fla. Dr. Branch Rickey is speaking. Before him sit 155 young players, 30 faculty members, 15 business managers, 15 minor league pilots, four umpires and eight newspapermen. DR. RICKEY--Our thesis this morning is, "The wages of gin is breath," or "You can't fool the manager." FIRST RECRUIT--Doctor, I never did like gin. You can have all of mine from now on. DR. R.--Young man, when I speak of gin, I mean not only the vile distillation of the innocent juniper berry, but the entire category of intoxicating liquors, the entire list of poisoned oncoctions such as rye, bourbon, Scotch, old fashions and new fashions. FIRST MANAGER (Soot voce)--Methinks the Mahatma knoweth too many names. SECOND MANAGER--Well, he was a catcher on them old, old Yankees, back in the days when Griffith was their manager, and you could get a shot of rye for 15 cents on the corner of Broadway and 156th street, across the street from the Yank park. DR. R.--Boys, eschew liquor! FIFTH ROOKIE--The doctor seems to have a cold. DR. R.--The man who, with besotted brain, stagger forth to his daily duties is he who, when beaten by the clear-eyed opponent, shouts, "Luck, pure luck. That guy wears horseshoes!" FIFTEENTH ROOKIE--I am licked, 1 to 6, by a no-hitter in Putrid Falls last July, and that ain't luck, eh? DR. R.--Luck is the residue of design. TENTH MANAGER--If that ain't double talk, I never heard none. Luck is what you ain't got when you lose. (...) DR. R.--I say once again, that time is o the essence and luck is the residue of design. (...) Dr. R--And I want to leave this thought with you--luck is the residue of design. TENTH MANAGER--Double talk if I ever heard it. BOB FINCH--Ten o'clock, doctor. DR. R.--Scram, everybody! -------------------------------------------------------------- BED-STUY Bed-Stuy didn't like "die" in its slogan? "Proud of it"--how old is that? They worked two years on this?? (FACTIVA) BED-STUY DEBUTS 'PROUD' SLOGAN Hasani Gittens 90 words 11 March 2005 New York Post 21 English (c) 2005 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. Bedford-Stuyvesant will no longer be known as the gritty "Do or Die" section of Brooklyn - from now on, it's "Bed-Stuy and Proud of It." That's the new slogan that was trotted out yesterday during a ceremony at Restoration Plaza on Fulton Street, attended by the likes of local hero Mos Def and other community leaders. The campaign is the result of nearly two years of market research, focus groups and on-the-street interviews by the Tate Group. -------------------------------------------------------------- SABENA SABENA used to mean something else. (GOOGLE NEWS) SABENA-- Military Rule a Disaster, Says Ex-Naval Chief AllAfrica.com, Africa - Mar 10, 2005 ... 'Sabena' not the Belgian Airline, but it was a late army officer who coined the name. 'Sabena' means such a bloody experience never again in Nigeria.". ... From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 05:19:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:19:58 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 18:05:11 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My wife, also a New Yorker, seems always to say /ves/. She was told >about 1970 that a /vaz/ cost more than $25. She too thinks of it as a >joke. > >Maybe the notion of pronunciation related to price developed as a jest; >when it was publicized, many people accepted it as true while others did >not. Of the "believers," a certain percentage (few, I would guess) >actually alter their native pronunciation to accord with the "rule." >Others pass on the information as a "fact" of interest without >consistently altering their own pronunciation. > >It may even be that some dealers in vases deliberately changed their >pronunciation on the assumption that /vaz/ sounded more "English" and >therefore elegant and the sort of thing one would say to a high-toned >customer in the market for expensive objets d'art. > >There must be a name for these phenomena. I mean besides "flattery" and >"gullibility." Fascinating... the newspaper databases support your theory that the whole thing started off as a joke that was eventually taken seriously by some. One can find discussions about the proper pronunciation of "vase" back to the 1880s, and joking suggestions that the pronunciation variants distinguish price or quality appear soon thereafter... ----- (Frederick, Md.) News, Jan. 6, 1894, p. 4 >From the New York Sun. The later authorities in words have come to the rescue of the public. They say that a straightforward English pronunciation of the word vase is sufficient and desirable. In such a case it rhymes with case or base. In certain circles the object becomes a vaze: if it is a peachblow it is a vahze; and if it is in Boston it is a vawz. The new dictionary makers have smashed one annoying affectation of language. ----- Stevens Point (Wisc.) Daily Journal, Aug. 21, 1907, p. 3 Somebody says that the difference between a vase and a "vahze" is that the latter costs more than $2.50. But a "vahze" that costs five dollars or six dollars is now called an amphora, and both the vahze and the amphora were never intended for use but to be placed on stands or in niches, as evidence that their owner has money to burn. ----- Mansfield (Ohio) News, Oct. 9, 1915, p. 7 Now the vase in question, you must pronounce vahze, because anything that costs over $1.50 is pronounced as above, while if it costs less, you say vase, making it rhyme with lace. Please make a note of the distinction. ----- Indianapolis Star, May 4, 1921, p. 10 Mr. Crane [sc. Ross Crane, head of the extension department of the Art Institute of Chicago] waxed almost lyrical over the beauties of a blue luster vase of exquisite proportions. "Vase -- vahz -- vaz" he said, referring to it. "If it costs over $100 it's a vahz." ----- Newark (Ohio) Advocate, Dec 30, 1922, p. 4 When a vase becomes inestimably precious it is called a vahze, and it looks as though we'd have to think up some other pronunciation for coal. ----- In his "Take My Word For It" column, Frank Colby (and his widow after his death) addressed the issue repeatedly -- sometimes presented as a joke, sometimes as a serious question from a reader: ----- Los Angeles Times, Nov 26, 1940, p. A20 In the United States there apparently is a feeling that if a vase comes from the five-and-ten it is simply a vayss, to rhyme with case, race. But if it is purchased at one of the more expensive shops it is dignified by the title vawz, to rhyme with laws. ----- Los Angeles Times, Feb 20, 1947, p. 10 There is a hackneyed quip to the effect that if it comes from the five-and-ten it's a "vayss." Otherwise it's a "vahz." ----- Los Angeles Times, Oct 23, 1949, p. A5 [Repeats the "hackneyed quip" of the 1947 column.] ----- Los Angeles Times, Jul 2, 1952, p. A5 Beverly Hills: When you can spare the space, will you be kind enough to comment on the pronunciation of the word vase? I have been told that any vase which costs less than one dollar is pronounced: vayss; if it costs more than one dollar it is pronounced: vawz. Anything to that? -- L.Y.O. Answer-- Of course not. "Vahz" and "vawz" are Briticisms, and either is a little too lah-de-dah for the average American, regardless of the cost of the ornament. Best usage in the United States is: vayss, to rhyme with "base, lace, case, chase." ----- Syracuse Post Standard, Oct. 30, 1956, p. 19 Boulder: My little son's teacher (second grade) has told him that if a vase is bought at the five-and-dime store (strange name nowadays, when if you get anything there for a dollar, you're lucky), it is pronounced "vayss"; but if it costs more than $5, then the pronunciation is "vahz," or some such queer sounding thing. What's the good word? -- Mrs. E.O. Answer: The idea is ridiculous. In the United States the rhyme with case, race, has been best usage for 150 years. The "ah" and "aw" sounds are Briticisms, and the price has nothing at all to do with the pronunciation. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 12 05:23:05 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:23:05 -0500 Subject: big cup of . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Had I but continued to read till I reached the chorus, I would have seen that this chorus *does* fit the tune and that there was a connection between the tune, "Dixie," and the mini-epic poem, "Dixie." I was around seven years old at the time and knew not the art of scanning a text. When I couldn't make the first line fit the rhythm of the song, I erroneously concluded that further reading would be a waste of time. Well, further reading of the poem would have been a waste of time, in any case. But you gnome sane. Thanks, Jon! Now, I shall be able to sleep o' nights. There'll be no more tossing and turning as I try to solve the enigma of the lack of connection between the two "Dixie"s. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike >(1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. >An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the >most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old >article. > >"Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than >Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's >Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. > >It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." > > DIXIE > >Southrons, hear your country call you, >Up, lest worse than death befall you! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- >Let all hearts be now united! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! > >CHORUS: > >Advance the flag of Dixie! > Hurrah! Hurrah! >In Dixie's land we take our stand, > And live or die for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! > >Hear the Northern thunders mutter! >Northern flags in South winds flutter! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Send them back your fierce defiance! >Stamp upon the cursed alliance! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Fear no danger! Shun no labor! >Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, >Let the odds make each heart bolder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >How the South's great heart rejoices >At your cannon's ringing voices! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >For faith betrayed and pledges broken, >Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Strong as lions, swift as eagles, >Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Cut the unequal bonds asunder! >Let them hence each other plunder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Swear upon your country's altar >Never to submit or falter-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Till the spoilers are defeated, >Till the Lord's work is completed! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Halt not till our Federation >Secures among earth's powers its station! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Then at peace and crowned with glory, >Hear your children tell the story! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >If the loved ones weep in sadness, >Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; >Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: big cup of . . . >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >>"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" >> >>http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >>111016501481915117 >> >>Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > >The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man >is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this >re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since >two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to >mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as >in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in >"whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is >probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring >untutored Southrons as objects of derision. > >IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" >that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of >Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to >fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always >considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem >that I bothered to remember is the first word. > >-Wilson > >> >>Are there others? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sat Mar 12 06:55:44 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:55:44 +0800 Subject: A Spanish OED Message-ID: I hope this is not too off-topic. The Real Academia Espa?ola (RAE) has just announced that it has begun work on a dictionary based on historical principles. Spanish speakers don?t have a great etymological dictionary like the Chinese Zhongwen Da Cidian and the Hanyu Da Cidian, Morohashi Tetsuji's Chinese-Japanese Dai Kan-Wa Jiten, the Oxford English Dictionary, or the Grande Dizionario de la Lingua Italiana. RAE director Garc?a de la Concha says that Spanish and Portuguese are the only Western languages that lack a great historical dictionary. The RAE began working on a historical dictionary in the 1930s, but gave up during the Spanish Civil War. A second attempt was begun in 1946, but Volume I (Letter A) was only published in 1972, and the project fizzled out. At that rate, it would have taken 200 years to finish the dictionary. The word alma (soul) alone filled 24 small-type pages. De la Concha reckons that this time round, the project will be completed in about fifteen years. In an article in this morning?s El Pa?s, RAE academician Jos? Antonio Pascual is quoted as saying that RAE plans to work on all the letters of the alphabet simultaneously, taking advantage of new technological tools, especially Web-based tools, as they become available: ?When you miss a train, you may find that the next one is a high-speed train, and then you just have to take it.? The project is expected to cost about EUR1.5 million a year. The Spanish government has agreed to help out. Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 08:34:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:34:18 -0500 Subject: "Work like you don't need the money..." (1989) Message-ID: I was searching for "favorite cliche/phrase" and found this one. I don't know if Fred has it. (GOOGLE) THE MAKING OF BETTIE PAGE UNCENSORED 3 ... FAVORITE CLICHE PHRASE: Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching. ... www.psychotronic.info/archive/bettie/making_bpu3.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages WORK LIKE YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY--29,700 Google hits, 37,600 Google Groups hits LOVE LIKE YOU'VE NEVER BEEN HURT--44,400 Google hits, 51,300 Google Groups hits DANCE LIKE NOBODY'S WATCHING--24,800 Google hits, 20,900 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Dance Party in Buffalo ... It will be a great time!! :) Charlotte waff... at cs.buffalo.edu Work like you don't need the money. Dance like no one is watching. ... soc.motss - Feb 5 1995, 5:23 pm by Charlotte Wafford - 1 message - 1 author Work like you don't need the money. Dance like no one is watching. Love like you've never been hurt. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Gleaner Saturday, November 16, 2002 Kingston, Kingston ...C3 QUOTE OF THE WEEK U> WORK LIKE YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY, Love LIKE YOU've.....kids leave THE house until YOU start WORK until YOU retire until YOU get.. Pg. C3, col. 1: QUOTE OF THE WEEK Work like you don't need the money, Love like you've never been hurt, And dance like no one's watching. --Anonymous. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Post Standard Saturday, June 14, 1997 Syracuse, New York ...course, with a quote: "DANCE LIKE NO ONE IS WATCHING, love LIKE you've never.....been hurt: "sing LIKE NO ONE IS lIStening, and live LIKE it's.. Pg. B-3, col. 3: After district administrators nominated her for the state's Teacher of the Year award, Wildrick had to fill out a lengthy application and get 10 letters of support. She ended, of course, with a quote: "Dance like no one is watching, love like you've never been hurt; "sing like no one is listening, and live like it's heaven on earth." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Journal Sunday, December 06, 1998 Syracuse, New York ...need the money, AND to LOVE LIKE I've NEVER BEEN HURT. LOVE, Mike Tlie Family.....us all Until we meet one day again We LOVE you AND miss you LOVE, Mom, Dad.. Pg. B-4, col. 2 (Obituaries): In Loving Memory of Ellen Tangedahl You taught me to dance like no one's watching, to work like I don't need the money, and to love like I've never been hurt. Love. Mike (PROQUEST) kend: start: DEAR WEEKEND OVER TO YOU; [6] Jess White. The Guardian. Manchester (UK): Mar 23, 2002. p. 12 Readers of LeAnn Rimes's Q&A (March 16) might have been surprised by her "motto" - "Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like nobody's watching" - thinking that it revealed a degree of depth not illustrated by her other responses. They may be less surprised to discover that it is taken from The Frank Sonata by The Longpigs, lyrics by Crispin Hunt. Jess White London SE9 (PROQUEST) Weekend: DEAR WEEKEND: OVER TO YOU The Guardian. Manchester (UK): Mar 30, 2002. p. 16 Jess White (Dear Weekend, March 23) credits the Longpigs' Crispin Hunt with the lyric, "Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like nobody's watching". It is from a Guy Clark song, Come From The Heart, on his 1989 album Old Friends. It was written by Susanna Clark and Richard Leigh. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 08:51:52 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 03:51:52 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Why can't this trial just go away?...It's wine, not sperm, by the way. (GOOGLE NEWS) Teenage accuser: Jackson gave me 'Jesus juice' - Sydney Morning Herald (subscription) - Mar 10, 2005 Jacko 'gave accuser Jesus juice' - NEWS.com.au - Mar 10, 2005 JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits (GOOGLE GROUPS) Drink survey The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On this topic, try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors "Stop The Church" airs amidst controversy in LA (long) ... Even though I'm not a devout Catholic, just another moderately devout, dizzy, Episcopalian Church Fairy (I *always* finish off the Jesus-juice when I'm on ... soc.motss - Sep 23 1991, 9:48 pm by J.T. Kittredge - 119 messages - 44 authors (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) No hits! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 'The Fisher King' Is Wise Enough to Be Wacky Caryn James. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 22, 1991. p. H13 (1 page): Anne, a video-store owner in leopard-print leggings, thinks the Grail is "Jesus's juice glass." L.A. Raw; It not easy being a black private eye in 1961 California -- especially if you're also a single parent. BLACK BETTY By Walter Mosley. 255 pp. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. $19.95. By Barry Gifford. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1994. p. 294 (1 page): Besides his own, he has two other mouths to feed, those of his adopted children: 15-year-old Jesus (Juice), a mostly mute champion prep-school long-distance runner,... (PROQUEST) Vanity Fair says Jackson gave wine to 13-year-olds; [3 STAR Edition] ROBERT KAHN. Houston Chronicle. Houston, Tex.: Jan 29, 2004. p. 12 : Orth, citing the singer's former business manager, Myung-Ho Lee, writes that only Jackson's "inner people know" his code names for the beverages, adding that it "tells you that the boy spent `quality time' with Michael." The boy and his siblings have said that "all the kids around Michael" knew about "Jesus juice" and that Jackson told them, "Jesus drank it, so it must be good." Orth also says that on at least one other occasion, Jackson allegedly gave alcohol in soda cans to minors. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 09:05:35 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 04:05:35 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: >JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Drink survey >The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >this topic, >try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. Michael McKernan From slangman at PACBELL.NET Sat Mar 12 13:39:47 2005 From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 05:39:47 -0800 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: > > >Her two comrades learned they could drop in, sit on the floor, exchange ideas, and sometimes drink beer or "Jesus juice," their own concoction of grape juice and gin. (29) Emily Toth. Inside Peyton Place: The Life of Grace Metalious (1981). > > > > >> >> From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 14:29:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:29:22 -0800 Subject: big cup of . . . Message-ID: Just a routine part of my educational mission, Wilson. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: big cup of . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Had I but continued to read till I reached the chorus, I would have seen that this chorus *does* fit the tune and that there was a connection between the tune, "Dixie," and the mini-epic poem, "Dixie." I was around seven years old at the time and knew not the art of scanning a text. When I couldn't make the first line fit the rhythm of the song, I erroneously concluded that further reading would be a waste of time. Well, further reading of the poem would have been a waste of time, in any case. But you gnome sane. Thanks, Jon! Now, I shall be able to sleep o' nights. There'll be no more tossing and turning as I try to solve the enigma of the lack of connection between the two "Dixie"s. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is the offending work. The author, Albert Pike >(1809-91), was a minor Arkansas writer, later a Confederate general. >An article in "The Handbook of Texas Online" calls him "one of the >most remarkable figures in American history." Must be an old >article. > >"Dixie" is bad by modern standards, but rather more civilized than >Gen. George Patton's verse. It even made it into Thomas Lounsbury's >Yale Book of American Verse (1912). I first read it about 1961. > >It will fit the tune if you cheat "a little" - or "enough." > > DIXIE > >Southrons, hear your country call you, >Up, lest worse than death befall you! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Lo! all the beacon-fires are lighted,-- >Let all hearts be now united! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! > >CHORUS: > >Advance the flag of Dixie! > Hurrah! Hurrah! >In Dixie's land we take our stand, > And live or die for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! >To arms! To arms! > And conquer peace for Dixie! > >Hear the Northern thunders mutter! >Northern flags in South winds flutter! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Send them back your fierce defiance! >Stamp upon the cursed alliance! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Fear no danger! Shun no labor! >Lift up rifle, pike, and sabre! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Shoulder pressing close to shoulder, >Let the odds make each heart bolder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >How the South's great heart rejoices >At your cannon's ringing voices! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >For faith betrayed and pledges broken, >Wrongs inflicted, insults spoken, > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Strong as lions, swift as eagles, >Back to their kennels hunt these beagles! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Cut the unequal bonds asunder! >Let them hence each other plunder! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Swear upon your country's altar >Never to submit or falter-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Till the spoilers are defeated, >Till the Lord's work is completed! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Halt not till our Federation >Secures among earth's powers its station! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Then at peace and crowned with glory, >Hear your children tell the story! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >If the loved ones weep in sadness, >Victory soon shall bring them gladness-- > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie! >Exultant pride soon vanish sorrow; >Smiles chase tears away to-morrow! > To arms! To arms! To arms, in Dixie!-- > >(CHORUS) > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: big cup of . . . >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: big cup of . . . >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Tom Smith to Warren Buffet: >>"Have a nice big cup of shut the hell up" >> >>http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_therightcoast_archive.html# >>111016501481915117 >> >>Reminds me of "open up a can of whoop ass" > >The correct translation of this phrase into the language of The Man >is "open (up) a can of *whip*-ass." BTW, what's up with this >re-respelling of a word whose eye-dialect form has been "whup" since >two hours after God separated the heavens from the earth? Not to >mention that we old heads know that "whoop" is pronounced [hup], as >in "the blood-curdling war-whoops of the red-skinned savages" or in >"whoop-de-doo." I guess this tragic loss of the classic form is >probably due to the steady attrition of comic strips featuring >untutored Southrons as objects of derision. > >IFAC, "Southrons!" is the first word of a long poem entitled "Dixie" >that I once ran across as a child in the 1944 edition of "The Book of >Knowledge: The Children's Encyclopedia." Since its rhythm failed to >fit the rhythm of the song of the same name, which I've always >considered to have quite a catchy tune, the only part of the poem >that I bothered to remember is the first word. > >-Wilson > >> >>Are there others? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 14:37:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 06:37:23 -0800 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The "Purple Jesus" (Everclear and grape Kool-Aid ) was known to me at the University of Tennessee about a quarter century ago. The grad student who told me about it had heard it as an undergrad at a college in Mississippi. The precise phrase "Jesus juice" seems not to be recorded before Jackson's use of it. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Barry Popik wrote: >JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits > > >(GOOGLE GROUPS) >Drink survey >The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >this topic, >try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. Michael McKernan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From edkeer at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 15:27:49 2005 From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 07:27:49 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Also dirt and soil among landscapers. (Soil being the term for the more expensive variant and hence used with clients.) Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Like "pail" and "bucket." > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. > Preston > > wrote: > > >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to > varieties, not languages. > >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms > in the fiction > >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one > brain (except for > >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal > speakers are quick to > >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for > "greazy" and "greasy." > >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and > delicately oiled. > > Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New > York informants > pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? > Regional variants > that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be > reintensionalized (as > the semanticists might say) to mean different things > within one speaker's > dialect. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Mar 12 15:56:24 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:56:24 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) Message-ID: Remember Elmer Gantry. I can't find the exact quote from the movie but I did find this. Elmer Gantry (1960) ... Jesus had love in both fists! ... Gantry turns into an evangelizing, Bible Belt revivalist preacher ... At one point, she remembers "he sure rammed the fear of God up me ... www.film.org/elme.html - 13k - Mar 10, 2005 - Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McKernan" To: Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:05 AM Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Barry Popik wrote: > >>JESUS JUICE--42,200 Google hits, 1,200 Google Groups hits >> >> >>(GOOGLE GROUPS) >>Drink survey >>The other reason it's so lethal is that it's almost all alcohol! :-) On >>this topic, >>try 'Purple Jesus Juice' - everclear and purple kool-aid. ... >>alt.party - Sep 24 1991, 5:41 pm by Iain McVey - 37 messages - 33 authors > > > In my undergraduate days at Georgetown University (1969-70, say, when I > lived in a dorm) we had 'Purple Jesus' parties (juice was not mentioned). > Purple Jesus consisted primarily of grain alcohol (highest proof > available), colored with purple kool-aid (some red wine was optional; but > the secret ingredient was Gatorade, based on its sales pitch, 'gets into > your system twelve times faster than water' (or however many times faster, > I forget). Not having a good understanding of chemistry or physiology, we > simply accepted the empirical data that this combination was the fastest > drunk available without intravenous injection. While we didn't mind > getting ourselves drunk fairly rapidly, the fast-acting quality was most > desireable in connection with our hopes for our female guests. > > Michael McKernan From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 12 16:47:12 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:47:12 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: <16845.69.142.143.59.1110604798.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: Me, I say "jam jar." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:10:27 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:10:27 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Michael McKernan wrote: 'And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky?' Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors to this thread. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:15:52 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:15:52 -0800 Subject: outdoor mall Message-ID: caught on the "international male" page (about shopping opportunities for gay men, all over the world) in the March 2005 issue of Instinct, p. 38: ---- Another recent addition to L.A. is the Grove, and outdoor mall, which has your basics (Banana Republic) as well as department stores and more boutiquey shops. ----- surely "outdoor (shopping) mall" has come past my eyes thousands of times, but this was the first time i reflected on it. its meaning is (almost) transparent, so it's unlikely to find a place in dictionaries (and, indeed, it's not in the OED Online). still, it's not without some interest semantically. first, it has the form of a marked, special case: your classic (shopping) mall -- the Galleria, the Mall of America -- is indoors, under a roof. outdoor malls are, well, outdoors and open to the sky. but an outdoor mall isn't just a place to shop that happens to be open to the elements. it shares one crucial element with indoor malls: easy pedestrian access from one store to another, without interference from traffic. so your ordinary "shopping street", like Fifth Avenue, doesn't count as a mall, because of the traffic on the avenue and the side streets. more generally, city "shopping districts" don't count as malls. if, however, the shopping street or district is closed to traffic, then we have a species of outdoor mall, sometimes described as an "outdoor pedestrian mall". (i draw here from some of the 46,900 sites that Google provides for "outdoor mall".) and your ordinary "shopping center", with clusters of stores sprinkled around a gigantic parking lot, doesn't count as a mall, because pedestrian access from one store to another is not, in general, easy. at the San Antonio Center, a few miles south of me, it borders on the harrowing, in fact, and i don't recall anyone ever referring to the place as a "mall". if, however, you clump all the stores together in a central core, with the parking all around it, then you have an outdoor mall. so the Stanford Shopping Center, a mile north of me, which has this arrangement, is commonly referred to as a "mall". in fact, the center's literature refers to it as a "mall", a "shopping mall", an "outdoor mall", and an "outdoor shopping mall". a subtype of this sort of outdoor mall is the "shopping village", which resembles an apartment or condo complex (often on several levels), and indeed not infrequently has housing mixed in with the stores and restaurants and health clubs and barber shops and whatever. (note that all sorts of non-shopping establishments can be located in malls, but if there isn't a significant opportunity for shopping, it's not a mall, but merely some kind of "center". it's like drugstores: you can sell all sorts of things in a drugstore that aren't in any way describable as "drugs", but there has to be a significant presence of things that are.) outdoor malls can be permanent fixtures or temporary events. so, when the main street of Elmira (NY) is closed for the annual Maple Syrup Festival, with booths selling all sorts of things on the street, the event is described as an "outdoor mall". a further subtlety: malls, both indoor and outdoor, are designed to foster not mere shopping, but a "shopping experience". it's expected that visitors to the mall will window-shop, socialize in the common areas, and enter more than one establishment. if a high percentage of visitors do business at just one establishment, you have something that is technically a mall, but not a very good example of one -- the mall equivalent of the penguin in the bird world. such malls are actually very common in the u.s.: this is the ubiquitous (outdoor) "strip mall", where the establishments are arrayed in a row, making access to any one of them easy from the parking area, without inviting walking from one to another (though this is possible). two footnotes. (1) in addition to malls in the real world, there are virtual malls, "web malls" (53,200 raw Google web hits). (2) the hits for "outdoor mall" take in not only uses of this sequence of words parsed as adjectival "outdoor" plus head noun "mall" (as above), but also some parsed as a noun-noun compound meaning 'mall related to the outdoors'; these are malls, real or virtual, devoted to outdoor equipment (for hiking, climbing, barbecuing, etc.) or activities. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), not a mall rat From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:16:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:16:11 -0500 Subject: GREAZY and GREASY Message-ID: No-one has yet mentioned any of the metaphorical uses of this (these) word(s). I have heard tell that for some, GREAZY is the metaphorical-use pronunciation, said of a person who might politely be described as 'unctuous', like an over-attentive waiter, or of a people collectively thought of as sweaty and/or unctuous (eg 'greasy Wop' as an insult to Italians, 'greasy Dago' as an insult to the Spanish). For such people, GREASY is apparently the literal-meaning pronunciation, no matter what the quality of the grease. This is all hear-say, since both uses are [gri:si] for me (Standard Southern British English), but can anyone else confirm it? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 12 18:19:13 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:19:13 -0500 Subject: Napkins and serviettes Message-ID: My grandmother (born 1920s, Northern England) only says 'serviette' for the thing you use at table. My impression is that 'serviette' for that is in general falling out of use in Britain, just as someone said about Canada, since the use didn't really take in my family after her, but I am still perfectly familiar with the word. Damien Hall Universityof Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 18:50:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:50:16 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical term. Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." JL Ed Keer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Ed Keer Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also dirt and soil among landscapers. (Soil being the term for the more expensive variant and hence used with clients.) Ed --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Like "pail" and "bucket." > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: > Synonymy avoidance) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 11:13:14 -0500, Dennis R. > Preston > > wrote: > > >The "exact synonymy" rule surely applies to > varieties, not languages. > >"Ya'll" and "you guys" appear to be exact synonyms > in the fiction > >called "English," but they don't co-exist in one > brain (except for > >bidialectal speakers), although bidialectal > speakers are quick to > >begin to make distinctions, as I do now for > "greazy" and "greasy." > >"Greazy" is really greasy, "greasy" is lightly and > delicately oiled. > > Didn't Labov have an anecdote about one of his New > York informants > pointing out her small v[eys]es and large v[ahz]es? > Regional variants > that ostensibly "mean the same thing" can always be > reintensionalized (as > the semanticists might say) to mean different things > within one speaker's > dialect. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 19:00:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:00:22 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: For some reason, Alison's comment brings to mind a story that I read somewhere decades ago. I believe it was meant to demonstrate the distinction between good and bad taste in the Victorian era. A wealthy lady hires a new downstairs maid. The lady's home, of course, is filled with antiques and priceless objets d'art. Taking a gander at a delicately sculpted Baroque winged Cupid, the innocent girl exclaims, "Oooh, Ma'am! What a lovely statoo of your dead infant!" Such is the power of art to unite us. JL sagehen wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: sagehen Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Me, I say "jam jar." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 19:03:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:03:39 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a "dork"? Never. Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple dorkiness. Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? JL Damien Hall wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Damien Hall Subject: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael McKernan wrote: 'And I'm still wondering why no one has chimed in with a positive definition or other comment on dork. Is the word just too dorky?' Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors to this thread. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 19:42:09 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:42:09 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: Some fin-de-si?cle "vase" humor: ----- (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the store so hurriedly? Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- "Was that what you called it?" "Certainly." (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You should have called it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. ----- Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word v-a-s-e. I don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She simply speaks of all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. ----- And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness, until up spoke The western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" Over three faces a sad smile flew. And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word, Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" And glances around with an anxious thrill Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" ----- --Ben Zimmer From dpowell at HEALTHYLIFE.COM Sat Mar 12 19:55:32 2005 From: dpowell at HEALTHYLIFE.COM (Don Powell) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:55:32 -0500 Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches Message-ID: Hi, I am new to the list. I have written a book titled Best Sports Clich?s Ever. It has received a good deal of publicity and during interviews I am usually asked if I know the origins of the 1771 clich?s in my book. I only know several so any sports clich? origins you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Don Powell From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 19:59:59 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:59:59 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. > >Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? > >JL > >Damien Hall wrote: >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >last >semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with >those of the other contributors to this thread. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:04:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:04:19 -0500 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:42:09 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > >Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of >that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. >Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many >years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies >visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, >and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: [snip] Aha, found the original, complete version -- from 1889! (The pronunciation spellings given by Roche are slightly different.) ----- Washington Post, July 31, 1889, p. 4 The V-a-s-e. >From the madding crowd they stood apart, The maidens four and the Work of Art; And none might tell from sight alone In which had Culture ripest grown-- The Gotham Million fair to see, The Philadelphia Pedigree, The Boston mind of Azure hue, Or the soulful soul from Kalamazoo-- For all loved Art in a seemly way, With an earnest soul and a capital A. Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness until up spoke The Western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said: "What a lovely vace!" Over three faces a sad smile flew, And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word. Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahs!" And glances round with an anxious thrill, Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteouslee, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me! "I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vaws!" --James Jeffrey Roche ----- (Also appeared in the Atlanta Constitution, Aug 11, 1889, p. 17, with the attribution, "James Jeffrey Roche, in the Post-Express.") This was apparently a famous piece of verse at the time: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Dec 25, 1904, p. A2 James Jeffrey Roche, author of "The Sorrows of Sap'ed," is as well known for his verse as for his prose. His first humorous success was a poem called "The Vase," which appeared in a New York paper twenty years ago, and was widely read all over the country. ----- --Ben Zimmer From preston at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:23:14 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The line between amelioration and covert prestige is surely not too carefully drawn. How can we tell when a word used by insiders (in your face covert prestige, sometimes called reclamation) has been ameliorated in a more general sense by that use? Even after their reclamation, they still seem very context-bound (where by context I specifically mean to refer to user identity). I hope our empirical observations will not overwhelm our need for explanatory theorizing. I shudder to think we would turn out to be the butterfly collectors some of our colleagues in other subfields like to suggest we are. dInIs (who still enjoys catchin them linguistic butterflies) >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? > >Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >>"dork"? Never. >> >>Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >>dorkiness. >> >>Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? >> >>JL >> >>Damien Hall wrote: > >>Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >>last >>semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >>herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >>proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >>went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >>with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >>vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to >>chime with >>those of the other contributors to this thread. >> >>Damien Hall >>University of Pennsylvania > > >Michael McKernan -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 20:27:42 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:27:42 EST Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Rapdict.org; everyone misses the joke??) Message-ID: http://www.rapdict.org/Jesus_juice Allegedly a drink which Michael Jackson drinks himself, and plies on his young "guests". Jesus Juice is cheap White Wine + Coke. See also Jesus blood. Referenced by Eminem: "Here, I make Jesus juice, take a sip of this" -- Eminem (Ass Like That) [1] (http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/eminem/encore/ass_like.mnm.txt) ... ... OK, maybe Larry Horn was busy. But Ben Zimmer and all the rest? You set these things up with an easy lob, and no one hits it? Will William Safire miss it, too? The Michael Jackson trial went like this. "Jesus juice?" responded the defense attorney. "It was nothing more than soda, and I can prove it!" "Soda!" snickered some reporters. The defense attorney got out the Dictionary of American Regional English, volume four, letters P-Sk. A hush went over the courtroom. "Your honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury," said the defense attorney. "My client, Michael Jackson, is the King of Pop." From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 12 20:30:16 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:30:16 -0500 Subject: Napkins and serviettes In-Reply-To: <1110651553.423332a17ad10@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >My grandmother (born 1920s, Northern England) only says 'serviette' for the >thing you use at table. My impression is that 'serviette' for that is in >general falling out of use in Britain, just as someone said about Canada, >since >the use didn't really take in my family after her, but I am still perfectly >familiar with the word. > >Damien Hall >Universityof Pennsylvania ~~~~~~~~~~ I would be very surprised to hear anyone actually say "serviette" in the states. It was an unknown expression to me when I first noticed it (fifty years ago) in Fowler's list of genteelisms that he was recommending "normal" replacements for. I have heard it in the UK, but don't ever remember hearing it in France. (I don't really see why "napkin" should be avoided in UK, anyway, since what we call "diapers" are usually called "nappies" over there.) On the other thread, I'm a GREASY speaker & GREAZY makes me feel quite queasy. AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 12 20:28:33 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:28:33 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Damien Hall: > >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd >for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came >to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a >'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that >annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would >have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British >and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about >'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors >to this thread. Jonathan Lighter: > >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. Michael McKernan: > >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). "Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also "theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). Compare also: "geek pride": 10,500 "nerd pride": 3,940 "dork pride": 641 --Ben Zimmer From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 21:23:39 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:23:39 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google >search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to >someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate >to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for >grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. > >There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and >those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* >geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). > >"Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits >lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty >common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also >"theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", >there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). > >Compare also: > >"geek pride": 10,500 >"nerd pride": 3,940 >"dork pride": 641 Good. Now we're getting somewhere. I used 'pride' based on Jonathan's formulation: >>Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >>"dork"? Never. Ben argues for self-deprecating usage of all of these terms; ok with me. But in my (limited) experience, self-deprecation often is a tool to hide 'pride' in an ability or interest which is seen as low-status, especially in high school/youth culture. I suggest that Ben's data on 'band dork' and 'music dork', other arts/language usages, all show as much covert 'pride' as put-down. Many high school musicians I know, for instance, are quite proud of their musical abilities, although they don't choose to express this pride in all social settings. Likewise, Ben's data on 'grammar geek/nerd' as also 'deprecating: well, we're seeing here a certain degree of synonymy, with nerd and dork showing a substantial degree of interchangeability with geek, win/place/show. If there were good data, I suppose I could accept dork as term of choice for low-status interests, but then, why do Ben's data show such high levels of 'grammar geek'? Alliteration? If, as Ben claims, only 'computer-geek/nerd' has been rehabilitated, then it's not really the geek/nerd, is it? the 'computer' carries the status, and can anyone really believe that 'computer dork', should it come into use, wouldn't have the same status? OK, here are some data: 'computer dork' 3,740 Google hits So, do I hear an assertion that 'computer dorks' are unrehabilitated, non-ameliorated, and clearly lower status than 'computer geeks' or 'computer nerds'? I feel a need to repeat that I have no personal stake in the rehabilitation of the dork. I may be a dork; if so, I'm a proud one. But I am interested in both empirical studies and theoretical analysis of these terms. So please don't take offense if I question assertions. BTW, is there something to be said about English four-letter (slang) words beginning with a consonant and ending in 'k'? Geek, dork, jerk, wonk, dink, gook, etc.? Michael McKernan From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 21:37:34 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:37:34 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Some additional google data, FWIW: computer geek 384,000 computer nerd 112,000 computer nurd 335 computer dork 3,740 computer jerk 1,100 computer wonk 596 computer dink 113 computer gook 81 including: Rusty and Tony's World ... I am a "computer gook", not quite smart enough to be a "geek". We met quite by accident four years ago. We were both playing bingo online. ... tonysgirl.bravepages.com/home/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Briefly scanning the 'gook' data, I noticed the item above, which does clearly specify a status hierarchy. But the other 'gook' hits seem to be synonymous with the geek/nerd mainstream. (A few 'gooks' refer to corrupted output, probably short for 'gobbledygook'.) Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 22:11:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:11:52 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some fin-de-si?cle "vase" humor: ----- (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the store so hurriedly? Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- "Was that what you called it?" "Certainly." (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You should have called it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. ----- Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word v-a-s-e. I don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She simply speaks of all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. ----- And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word For It" column: ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct pronunciation of that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse written many years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four young ladies visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and beautiful vase: Long they worshiped, but no one broke The sacred stillness, until up spoke The western one from the nameless place, Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" Over three faces a sad smile flew. And they edged away from Kalamazoo. But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred To crush the stanger with one small word, Deftly hiding reproof in praise, She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" But brief her unworthy triumph when The lofty one from the home of Penn, With the consciousness of two grandpapas, Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" And glances around with an anxious thrill Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, I did not catch your remark because I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" ----- --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 22:22:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:22:33 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My powerful theoretical argument in this case is "What I say goes." This appears to be similar to the theory that informs your own position. Frankly I would prefer to be called a geek or a nerd rather than a dork, though certainly I have been called all three, particularly after blind dates. Shall we step outside to settle this ? JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. > >Were such distinctions available to the ancient Saxons? > >JL > >Damien Hall wrote: >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd for >last >semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came to introduce >herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a 'grammar dork' and >proceeded to give several examples of things that annoyed her ('Betsy and me >went to the store', etc). Personally, I would have associated such annoyance >with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British and don't have *dork* in my native >vocab at all, but my intuition about 'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with >those of the other contributors to this thread. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 12 22:53:21 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:53:21 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My powerful theoretical argument in this case is "What I say goes." > >This appears to be similar to the theory that informs your own position. >Frankly I would prefer to be called a geek or a nerd rather than a dork, >though certainly I have been called all three, particularly after blind >dates. > >Shall we step outside to settle this ? If the google data I just posted are anything like a reliable portrait of current speech practices, then it seems that if you can claim computer status, you're just about 100 times more likely to be called a 'computer geek' than a 'computer dork.' For nerd, the ratio drops to just under 33 times more likely than dork. Hope this soothes the cyberwaters, since it's snowing rather hard, outside here. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 12 23:00:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:00:10 EST Subject: "Monday's Child" (1836) Message-ID: The "Monday's child is fair in face..." poem has been discussed on the American Name Society list. I don't know what Fred Shapiro (Yale Dictionary of Quotations) will have, but the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations has A. E. Bray, from 1838. I found the same author's work, dated 1836; unfortunately, I couldn't find any earlier. I looked all over "children's poetry" of this period. ... ... (GOOGLE) Friday's Child at Everything2.com ... Monday's child is fair of face Tuesday's child is full of grace Wednesday's child is full ... I could find cites Traditions of Devonshire (AE Bray), 1838 (which is ... www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=847519 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) first day of the week [WAS: A Language Puzzle] ... Monday's child is fair of face, Tuesday's child is full of grace, Wednesday's child is ... The earliest version they knew of was 1838, and instead of 'the Sabbath ... alt.english.usage - Jun 22 2001, 3:10 pm by Donna Richoux - 277 messages - 77 authors ... ... ... A DESCRIPTION OF THE PART OF DEVONSHIRE BORDERING ON THE TAMY AND THE TAVY; ITS NATURAL HISTORY, MANNERS, CUSTOMS, SUPERSTITIONS, SCENERY, ANTIQUITIES, BIOGRAPHY OF EMINENT PERSONS, &c. &c. IN A SERIES OF LETTERS TO ROBERT SOUTHEY, ESQ. BY MRS. BRAY IN THREE VOLUMES.--VOL.II LONDON: JOHN MURRAY, ALBEMARLE STREET MDCCCXXXVI. (1836--ed.) ... ... Pg. 287: The fortunes of children are likewise considered to be very much regulated by the day on which they were born. Here is a poetical adage on the subject common in our town:-- "Monday's child is fair in face, Tuesday's child is full of grace, Wednesday's child is full of woe, Thursday's child has far to go, Pg. 288: Friday's child is loving and giving, Saturday's child works hard for its living; And a child that's born on a Christmas day, Is fair and wise, good and gay." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:14:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:14:15 -0800 Subject: substitute for = replace with Message-ID: Here's another example of this usage, which I continue to find curious. Karen Spears Zacharias, the author of "Hero Mama" (N.Y.: Morrow, 2004), is in her mid-40s and grew up in Kingsport, Tennessee. During an appearance at The New School for Social Research on Jan. 26, she said the following about her mother: "She made bad decisions....She substituted intimacy for sex." Zacharias "meant" just the opposite. A tape of her appearance is showing this weekend on BookTV. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Mar 12 23:22:21 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 17:22:21 -0600 Subject: vase vs. vase In-Reply-To: <20050312221152.94447.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I grew up pronouncing 'vase' to rhyme with 'paws' (Saskatchewan, Canada, heart of the Prairies; born 1939) and was probably grown up before I discovered that there was any other pronun. But I wouldn't rhyme it with 'because', as in the Roche poem, since I pronounce the latter word to rhyme with 'buzz'. I had always thought that the story about the pronun being related to the price was a made-up story, and have assumed that people telling it were doing so tongue-in-cheek -- with maybe just a hint of uncertainty in some cases (i.e. that the person thinks maybe they should be pronouncing the word differently in a given situation). The Roche poem demonstrates that there is a long history of social oneupmanship tied up in this one word, but it doesn't show that different pronuns are actually used to indicate the quality of a particular vase. The variants of 'vase' are surely a totally different thing from something like, say, the pronun of 'offense' and 'defense' with initial stress in a sports context, as opposed to its usual pronun in other contexts. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > > > That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are > possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've > never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. > > Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------- > > Some fin-de-si?cle "vase" humor: > > ----- > (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 > Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the > store so hurriedly? > Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- > "Was that what you called it?" > "Certainly." > (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You > should have called > it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. > ----- > Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 > Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word > v-a-s-e. I > don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. > Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She > simply speaks of > all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. > ----- > > And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word > For It" column: > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > > Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct > pronunciation of > that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. > Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse > written many > years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four > young ladies > visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, > Philadelphia, > and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and > beautiful vase: > > Long they worshiped, but no one broke > The sacred stillness, until up spoke > The western one from the nameless place, > Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" > Over three faces a sad smile flew. > And they edged away from Kalamazoo. > But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred > To crush the stanger with one small word, > Deftly hiding reproof in praise, > She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" > But brief her unworthy triumph when > The lofty one from the home of Penn, > With the consciousness of two grandpapas, > Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" > And glances around with an anxious thrill > Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. > But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, > And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, > I did not catch your remark because > I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:19:17 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:19:17 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damien Hall: > >Here you go. One of the sophomores in the Linguistics 001 class I TA'd >for last semester (a girl, from Southern CA I think), when her turn came >to introduce herself to the rest of the class, described herself as a >'grammar dork' and proceeded to give several examples of things that >annoyed her ('Betsy and me went to the store', etc). Personally, I would >have associated such annoyance with *geek*iness. Of course, I'm British >and don't have *dork* in my native vocab at all, but my intuition about >'dork' and 'geek' does seem to chime with those of the other contributors >to this thread. Jonathan Lighter: > >Nowadays one may take pride in being a certain sort of "geek." But a >"dork"? Never. > >Your student was deprecating her geekiness by ascribing it to simple >dorkiness. Michael McKernan: > >I beg to differ, Jonathan. Damien's example seems to me to be a clear case >of someone 'nowadays' taking 'pride in being a certain sort of 'dork'. But >perhaps I'm being too empirical, and you may have a powerful theoretical >argument for your analysis, rather than an emotional one based on your >personal understanding or intuition. Or maybe her stomach couldn't stand >the chicken heads. Whadda I know? Not much, but I seem to hear and see an >occaisional meliorated dork 'nowadays'. If there is a 'rule' underlying >such transformations, why would dork (or any other term) be excluded, while >geek and nerd are allowed rehabilitation? Who says the student was taking "pride" in being a grammar dork? A Google search on "grammar dork" finds 147 examples, and it's usually ascribed to someone pejoratively (or to oneself in a self-deprecating manner: "I hate to be a grammar dork, but..."). As we all know, being a stickler for grammar is not exactly a source of pride for most of today's yout'. There are 2,230 hits for "grammar geek" and 730 for "grammar nerd" -- and those are mostly deprecating usages also. Clearly it's the *computer* geek/nerd who has been rehabilitated, not the grammar geek/nerd (yet!). "Dork", when used in combining forms, appears limited to nebbish pursuits lacking much prestige in youthful circles. "Band dork" appears pretty common (5,600 hits), as does "music dork" (3,270 hits). There's also "theater/theatre dork" (739 hits). And to go along with "grammar dork", there's "language dork" (122 hits) and "spelling dork" (118 hits). Compare also: "geek pride": 10,500 "nerd pride": 3,940 "dork pride": 641 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:24:11 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:24:11 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Gook" has been used in the general sense of "simpleton or dork" for a long time, but its recent minor resurgence seems to stem from youthful familiarity with the xenophobic term. Whether by extension or misunderstanding, I do not know. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some additional google data, FWIW: computer geek 384,000 computer nerd 112,000 computer nurd 335 computer dork 3,740 computer jerk 1,100 computer wonk 596 computer dink 113 computer gook 81 including: Rusty and Tony's World ... I am a "computer gook", not quite smart enough to be a "geek". We met quite by accident four years ago. We were both playing bingo online. ... tonysgirl.bravepages.com/home/ - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Briefly scanning the 'gook' data, I noticed the item above, which does clearly specify a status hierarchy. But the other 'gook' hits seem to be synonymous with the geek/nerd mainstream. (A few 'gooks' refer to corrupted output, probably short for 'gobbledygook'.) Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Mar 12 23:44:49 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:44:49 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: <20050312231917.12158.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than your typical academic listserv. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 12 23:47:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:47:51 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Jesse, your requirements for excitement are high indeed. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than your typical academic listserv. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 12 23:48:11 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:48:11 -0800 Subject: substitute for = replace with In-Reply-To: <20050312231415.4499.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Here's another example of this usage, which I continue to find curious. > > Karen Spears Zacharias, the author of "Hero Mama" (N.Y.: Morrow, > 2004), is in her mid-40s and grew up in Kingsport, Tennessee. During > an appearance at The New School for Social Research on Jan. 26, she > said the following about her mother: > > "She made bad decisions....She substituted intimacy for sex." > > Zacharias "meant" just the opposite. well, yes. a nice example of reversed "substitute" (in denison's terms) from the u.s. with "with" or "by" it would have been much less exciting. arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 00:00:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:00:39 -0800 Subject: vase vs. vase Message-ID: So when you say, "Bekuz it's a vawz," you mean what I mean when I I say "Bakawz it's a vahz." Somebody must be saying "Bekaze it's a vaze." Or is "bekaze" just an eye-dialect artifact ? JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: vase vs. vase ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I grew up pronouncing 'vase' to rhyme with 'paws' (Saskatchewan, Canada, heart of the Prairies; born 1939) and was probably grown up before I discovered that there was any other pronun. But I wouldn't rhyme it with 'because', as in the Roche poem, since I pronounce the latter word to rhyme with 'buzz'. I had always thought that the story about the pronun being related to the price was a made-up story, and have assumed that people telling it were doing so tongue-in-cheek -- with maybe just a hint of uncertainty in some cases (i.e. that the person thinks maybe they should be pronouncing the word differently in a given situation). The Roche poem demonstrates that there is a long history of social oneupmanship tied up in this one word, but it doesn't show that different pronuns are actually used to indicate the quality of a particular vase. The variants of 'vase' are surely a totally different thing from something like, say, the pronun of 'offense' and 'defense' with initial stress in a sports context, as opposed to its usual pronun in other contexts. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > > > That verse reminds us that *four* pronunciations are > possible, not just two. Compared to "vawz" (which I've > never heard), my customary /vaz/ is pretty unpretentious. > > Wonder what price ranges we're talking about here? > > JL > > Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: vase vs. vase > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------- > > Some fin-de-si?cle "vase" humor: > > ----- > (Mansfield, Ohio) Weekly News, June 2, 1892, p. 3 > Queensware Merchant-- What made that lady go out of the > store so hurriedly? > Clerk-- I don't know. I was showing her a vase -- > "Was that what you called it?" > "Certainly." > (With a groan.) "We have lost her custom forever. You > should have called > it a vawz. She's from Boston." -- Chicago Tribune. > ----- > Newark (Ohio) Daily Advocate, Dec. 15, 1895, p. 5 > Jinks-- I am always embarrassed when I want to say the word > v-a-s-e. I > don't know whether to say vaze, vace, vahz, or vawse. > Binks-- You might take a hint from our hired girl. She > simply speaks of > all ornaments as "them there." -- Truth. > ----- > > And half a century later, from Frank Colby's "Take My Word > For It" column: > > ----- > Los Angeles Times, Jun 5, 1942, p. 12 > > Please send us a RHYMOGRAM that will teach us the correct > pronunciation of > that vexatious word VASE. -- Mrs. H.M. > Answer: As a Rhymogram, let me quote part of a clever verse > written many > years ago by James Jeffrey Roche, in which he tells of four > young ladies > visiting an art museum. They are from Kalamazoo, New York, > Philadelphia, > and Boston, respectively. They stand admiring a rare and > beautiful vase: > > Long they worshiped, but no one broke > The sacred stillness, until up spoke > The western one from the nameless place, > Who blushing said, "What a lovely vase!" > Over three faces a sad smile flew. > And they edged away from Kalamazoo. > But Gotham's haughty soul was stirred > To crush the stanger with one small word, > Deftly hiding reproof in praise, > She cries, "'Tis indeed a lovely vaze!" > But brief her unworthy triumph when > The lofty one from the home of Penn, > With the consciousness of two grandpapas, > Exclaims, "It is quite a lovely vahz!" > And glances around with an anxious thrill > Awaiting the word of Beacon Hill. > But the Boston maiden smiles courteously, > And gently murmurs, "Oh, pardon me, > I did not catch your remark because > I was so entranced with that charming vawz!" > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 13 00:16:14 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:16:14 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: >On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. > >Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >your typical academic listserv. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise is cruising for a bruising. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 03:31:56 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:31:56 -0500 Subject: Polly Wolly Doodle (1883); Ham 'n' Eggs Message-ID: I looked at the Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin and Polly Wolly Doodle all day. -------------------------------------------------------------- POLLY WOLLY DOODLE Again, a folk song that seems to just come from nowhere. Maybe the next HDAS will have "polly wolly doodle." April 1939, Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin, vol. V, no. 2, pg. 41: Polly Wally Doodle (...) Pg. 42: Oh, I went down south for to see my Sal, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day, My Sally is a spunky gal, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day. CHORUS Fare thee well, fare thee well, Fare thee well my fairy fay, For I'm going to Louisiana, For to see my Susy Anna, Sing Polly wally doodle all the day. (GOOGLE) http://www.sois.uwm.edu/dl/sheet_music_site/Composer_bio_page.htm Hills, William H. 1859-1930 Compiler of popular songs. Published Student Songs (1881) which included My Bonnie. His third edition published in 1883 contained Polly Wolly Doodle and There is a Tavern in the Town. (GOOGLE) Shirley Temple: Polly Wolly Doodle Shirley Temple. Song Lyrics. Polly Wolly Doodle (Littlest Rebel 1935). Lyrics/Music S.Clare & B.DeSylva. Picture: Original Sheet Music ... www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/8038/1polywol.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: College songs : a collection of new and popular songs of the American colleges / Author(s): Waite, Henry Randall,; 1845-1909. Publication: Boston :; Oliver Ditson, Edition: New and enl. ed. Year: 1887 Description: 1 vocal score (128 p.) ;; 26 cm. Language: English Music Type: Songs Contents: A-roving -- Alma mater O -- Angel Gabriel -- Ba-be-bi-bo-bu -- Bavarian yodel -- Bingo (As sung at Brown) -- Bingo (marching song) -- The bold fisherman -- Bring back my Bonnie to me -- The bull-dog -- Carve dat possum -- Clementine -- The chapel -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Constantinople -- Crambambuli -- Crow song -- The Dutch company -- Dutch warbler -- Emmet's lullaby -- Fair Harvard -- Farewell for ever -- Forsaken -- Finiculi, finicula -- De golden wedding -- Good-night, ladies -- Go down, Moses -- Golden slippers -- Good-bye, my lover, good-bye -- I'll hear the trumpet sound -- In the morning by the bright light -- The Irish christening -- It's a way we have at Old Harvard -- Jilted -- Jingle Bells -- The Lauterbach maiden -- Maiden of the fleur de lys -- Mary had a little lamb -- Mary and Martha -- McSorley's twins -- Meerschaum pipe.; A merry heart -- Michael Roy -- Mush, mush -- More and more -- Nellie was a lady -- Oh, dem golden slippers -- Oh, my darling Clementine -- Old Noah he did build an ark -- Over the bannister -- Owl and the pussy cat -- Paddy Duffy's cat -- Polly-wolly-doodle -- Peanut song -- The quilting party -- Rig-a-jig -- Roll, Jordan, roll -- Rosalie -- Rumsty ho! -- Serenade -- Shool -- Soldier's farewell -- Solomon Levi -- The Spanish cavalier -- Steal away -- Swing low, sweet chariot -- There is a tavern in the town -- There is music in the air -- Thou art my own love -- Three crows -- Troubadour song -- To the bravest -- Turn back Pharaoh's army -- The two roses -- Upidee -- Uralio -- Vive l'amour -- The waterfall -- Way up on the mountain-top-tip-top -- What beams so bright -- Where would I be -- The young lover. -------------------------------------------------------------- HAM 'N' EGGS I couldn't find anything else on this one. Songs about food are of interest to me. October 1940, Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin, vol. VI, no. 3, pg. 39: Ham 'n' Eggs Mrs. Schaupp says that this song was sung by several boys in the Nebraska State Reformatory for men. "They said it was sung in prisons all over the country. There is also a verse on the sewing-machine, which none of them could remember, so they used to substitute the word 'sewing-machine'in the second stanza." The melody of this song is the same as that used as the theme song of the radio program advertising Barbasol. This program, I believe, was not started until several years after Mrs. Schaupp learned the song in 1923. Ham 'n' eggs, ham 'n' eggs, I like my ham fried good an' brown, I like my eggs turned up-side down. Ham 'n' eggs, ham 'n' eggs, Flip 'em, flop 'em, Better not drop 'em, Ham 'n' eggs. Automobile, automobile, Automobile, she run so fas', Can't see nothin' but a pane o' glass, Automobile, auotmobile, Unk-cu-cu-cuk-chuck, unk-cu-cu-cuk-chuck, Automobile. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 03:47:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:47:00 -0500 Subject: "Sucking Cider through a Straw" (1874) Message-ID: "Sucking cider through a straw" (a tongue-twister!) another "unknown" American folk song. The Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin (April 1939) doesn't give an author, either. Newspaperarchive seems to get us close. However, I got the below message that two 1874 cites aren't available. (GOOGLE) KIDiddles: Song Lyrics: Sippin' Cider Through a Straw Sippin' Cider Through a Straw. Echo Song Written By: Unknown Copyright Unknown. The prettiest girl (The prettiest girl) I ever saw ... www.kididdles.com/mouseum/s051.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) Sipping Cider through a Straw - Trad and Anon (Lyrics and Chords) ARTIST: Trad and Anon TITLE: Sipping Cider through a Straw Lyrics and Chords The prettiest girl (the prettiest girl) I ever saw (I ever saw) Was sippin' ci ... www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/sippingc.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Ohio Democrat Friday, July 03, 1874 New Philadelphia, Ohio ...girl I ever sAw "WAs sucking CIDER THROUGH A strAw. ThAt question, "Where.....AmericAn, ''of A pAtent obtAined THROUGH this office lor A physiciAn.. Portsmouth Times Saturday, May 03, 1873 Portsmouth, Ohio ...yo-orchArd borrowing" Apple0 CIDER THROUGH A strAw. Or you would sco b'wc.....hAirs 1 Give over lookin wildly Oiit THROUGH the vistA of A boundless future.. Coshocton Democrat Tuesday, July 28, 1874 Coshocton, Ohio ...girl I ever sAw WAs sucking CIDER THROUGH A strAw. The other dAy. A young.....not do it unless the temperAnce people THROUGH the LegislAture so enActed.. Dixon Telegraph Wednesday, May 21, 1873 Dixon, Illinois ...borrowing" Apples, or sAmpling CIDER THROUGH A strAw, wo just hint thAt you.....shut lin light AwAy, WhAt gloom Down THROUGH our leAfy cAliocy DArt myriAd.. When I tried to open two "sucking cider" 1874 hits, I got this--which sucks: Newspaper Image Not Viewable We apologize for this error. The newspaper page you are trying to access is currently not available. Our staff has been notified and we are working to correct this issue. If you would still like to contact our customer service department, you may email us at: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 13 03:55:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:55:25 -0500 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Dork >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. >> >>Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >>your typical academic listserv. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I >surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) >good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds >to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share >of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise >is cruising for a bruising. > >Michael McKernan "Cruising for a bruising"? IMO, such a person is aching for a breaking. ;-) -Wilson Gray From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 13 03:57:30 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:57:30 -0500 Subject: "Sucking Cider through a Straw" (1874) Message-ID: Barry, this memoir excerpt is from roughly 1830-40, but not published until 1894, but I thought you might appreciate the description of the activity in the song. >I have very pleasant recollections of the neighborhood cider mill. There >were two rollers formed of logs carefully rounded and four or five feet >long, set closely together in an upright position in a rough frame, a long >crooked sweep coming from one of them to which a horse was hitched and >pulled it round and round, One roller had mortices in it, and projecting >wooden teeth on the other fitted into these, so that, as they both slowly >turned together, the apples were crushed, A huge box of coarse slats, >notched and locked together at the corners, held a vast pile of the >crushed apples while clean rye straw was added to strain the flowing juice >and keep the cheese from spreading too much; then the ponderous screw and >streams of delicious cider. Sucking cider through a long rye straw >inserted in the bung-hole of a barrel was just the best of fun, and cider >taken that way "awful" good while it was new and sweet. http://www.death-valley.us/dv49/dv49_3.html@@@Death Valley in '49 [nb: url needs to have the final text pasted in!] By Williams Lewis Manly; Important chapter of California pioneer history. The autobiography of a pioneer, detailing his life from a humble home in the Green Mountains to the gold mines of California; and particularly reciting the sufferings of the band of men, women and children who gave "Death Valley" its name. PUBLISHED San Jos?, California, The Pacific tree and vine co., 1894. Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 07:03:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:03:41 EST Subject: San Man; OT: NY Post can't add without Grant Barrett! Message-ID: OT: NY POST CAN'T ADD WITHOUT GRANT BARRETT ... The Nets got clobbered again by Miami. The final score was 90-65. Heat over Nets.So let's look at today's newspaper and see how much they lost by. God. this is bad! Give Grant Barrett a job! ... 13 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 50: _Nets melt down in 35-point loss_ ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SAN MAN ... The Sunday NY Times, city section, has an articvle on NYC's sanitation men, but doesn't include the slang angle like the article Grant contributed to. ... Mr. San Man? ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/thecity/index.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/thecity/index.html) _The Collectors_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/nyregion/thecity/13garb.html) By FIELD MALONEY The 'san men' know their work holds no one in thrall. But as they hoist 3.6 million tons of trash a year, and as their 75th birthday passes with little notice, a tip of the hat would be nice, thanks. ... ... SAN MAN + SANITATION--68 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit ... ... (GOOGLE) _Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream_ (http://persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html) . Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream. Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream Make him the cutest that I've ever seen Give him two lips like roses ... persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html - 3k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FYznfBLggocJ:persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html+"Mr.+san dman"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/m496.html) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 07:11:29 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:11:29 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) Message-ID: Voo Doo, MIT's humor magazine, has some old issues in an online archive: . The issues are in PDF files with searchable text (though there's no search facility and the text hasn't been indexed by Google). The 1962 slang list below has some interesting entries -- for instance, "grungy", antedating OED's 1965 cite. Also, "tool(ing)", "gronk", and "hairy", each of which has an entry in the Jargon File: http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/tool.html http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/gronk.html http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hairy.html ----- http://web.mit.edu/voodoo/www/archive/pdfs/1962-Jan.pdf Voo Doo Magazine (MIT), Jan. 1962, pp. 10-11 Here it is, gang! Cut it out and send it home to Mom, or to the hometown girlfriend. It will help them to understand your peculiar way of talking, when you get home, for it is ..... Voo Doo Illustrated Dictiontary [sic] of MIT Tooling - The ingestion of useless information. Tool - One who tools excessively. Horny - Being desirous of Female companionship. Grungy - Grubbiness to an extent known only to Techmen and Hoboes. IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute Has The Finest Professors" Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence. Flush - At M.I.T., this is the antithesis of "bomb"....those who advocate an end to nuclear tests should therefore consider the alternative. Screw - A fastener having helical threads and a slotted head. Gronk - To adjust a device so as to render its original function inoperable; i.e., to "gronk" a pay telephone. Springfield Oval - a type of sandpaper currently being used for printing purposes by the tech. Bee and Pea - Buildings and Power, sometimes erroneously called "Physical "Plant." Bull - An animal secretly harbored in building 14, the mascot of the Humanities Department. The Ninth Level - As anyone who has tried to dial this on an Institute extension has discovered, The Ninth Level is a level of communication attained only by one Ludwig Beethoven. Flunking Out - a system whereby M.I.T. makes room in the dorms for next year's freshmen. Hairy - Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. ----- -- Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 09:32:45 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:32:45 EST Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." ... The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, and both involve Brooklyn. ... Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of Trade Jargon. ... I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a spread from the Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage pitches? ... I'll try to check "mungo" and "hero sandwich" at the Brooklyn Historical Society Library. It's now open "by appointment." It's been closed for renovation for what, five years, ten years now? ... The continuing digitization of the Brooklyn Eagle will help, but don't hold your breath on that. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 2 June 1984, New York Times, pg. 27: Other furnishings are of the "mungo" variety, a term used by sanitation workers for objects retrieved from the trash. (...) Part of the show will be "San-man's Place," an actual outdated sanitation office moved piece by piece to the gallery. ... ... ... _http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/mongo/_ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/mongo/) mongo n. material or goods salvaged from items intended for disposal. _English._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C112/) _NYC._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C54/) _Slang._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C36/) (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C8/) _United States._ (http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/newcats/C8/) New evidence from the unpublished Lexicon of Trade Jargon, compiled by the Works Progress Administration, has a form of this word from before 1938: mungo, referring to the person who salvages discarded items, rather than the things being salvaged. This term appears to be specific to New York City. 1984 James Brooke New York Times (Sept. 10) ?Sanitation Art Showings Brighten Workers? Image? p. B4: Other exhibits at the gallery were a 1,500-square-foot transparent map showing the locations of Sanitation Department offices; three piles of televisions on which videotapes of sanitation workers were shown, and an old, department-section office furnished in ?mongo,? discarded furniture salvaged by sanitation men. 1996 Mierle Laderman Ukeles (http://www.hints.hu/backinfo/sanitationart295.pdf) (Spring) ?Interview: Mierle Laderman Ukeles on Maintenance and Sanitaton Art? p. 20 @ _Dialogues in Public Art_ (http://www.hints.hu/backinfo/sanitationart295.pdf) (2001) Tom Finkelpearl: Besides furniture and bathroom, I crammed the section with a decor of ?Mongo,? items workers selected from the waste flow, that they refused to put in the truck?art, religious figures, dolls. 2004 Jane and Michael Stern _New York Times_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/books/review/20STERNL.html) (June 20) ??Mongo?: I Love Trash?: ?Mongo? is slang for garbage salvaged from streets and trash heaps. Any rubbish can qualify, whether it?s edible, wearable, useful or indescribable. ... ... _http://www.brooklynhistory.org/library_collections.html_ (http://www.brooklynhistory.org/library_collections.html) Subsequently the Library will be open to readers on an _appointment_ (mailto:reference at brooklynhistory.org) basis Not all collections are on-site and available for use; please carefully read the following: Available book collections : Brooklyn, New York City, and Long Island local history, most of the printed genealogy materials, and most Brooklyn maps and atlases. Archives and Manuscripts : NOT available, pending a staff appointment. The image database is available by appointment. Fee schedules and copyright permission forms are available from the _photo archivist_ (mailto:jannitto at brooklynhistory.org) click on ?photo archivist? or call 718.222.4111 X224. We regret that we can ONLY accept reference inquiries at the present time by e-mail and surface mail as we prepare the collections for full research use. Please allow one month for a response. We are unable to accept telephoned reference requests at present. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 10:18:30 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:18:30 EST Subject: Harvey Wallbanger (1968, 1969) Message-ID: Some new cites here. ... .... (OED) In full Harvey Wallbanger. A cocktail made from vodka or gin and orange juice. 1970 Gourmet Nov. 9 (Advt.), Harvey Wallbanger. Fill tall glass with ice cubes. Fill full with orange juice. Add 1 oz. Vodka. 1972 New Yorker 30 Sept. 41/2 A wallbanger is a vodka or gin or whatever you please with orange juice. 1981 T. HEALD Murder at Moose Jaw xi. 130 The Mounties..ordered a brace of Harvey Wallbangers. Ibid. 131 Smith took a draught of Wallbanger. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Ninety Chili Aficionados Chow Down_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=513089432&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1110708130&clientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 22, 1968. p. I14 (1 page) : Instead of champagne or even beer, which also went undrunk, the chili clansmen decided they preferred Harvey Wallbangers. ... A "Harvey Wallbanger," Doner explained, "consists of two shots of vofka, one shot of Galliano (an Italian liqueur) ice and orange juice. ... "As to its origin, there was supposed to be a guy in Laguna Beach who ran out of everything at a party except vodka, Galliano and orange juice. When everybody left, Harvey was banging his head against the wall." ... ... _Display Ad 123 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=577465922&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111070 8751&clientId=65882) Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 23, 1969. p. W4 (1 page) FAMOUS Award Winning Liquor Stores ... HARVEY WALLBANGER The "Now" Mixed Drink ... 8 oz. O.J. 1 oz. Vodka Stir with ice Splash in 1/2 oz. Galliano (Illustration of "Harvey"--ed.) From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 11:10:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:10:07 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 04:32:45 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >... >The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and >1995, and both involve Brooklyn. >... >Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He >noted that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of >Trade Jargon. >... >I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if >it's from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >spread from the Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Why couldn't it have derived from "mung" = 'mixture, mess; messy substance'? This is the presumed origin for "mungo" = 'cheap fabric made from waste wool and rags'. But I can see how the local presence of a colorfully named pitcher could have influenced the "-o" formation. (Encarta suggests that the fabric sense of "mungo" may have been formed "on the model of the Scottish forename Mungo".) The earliest cite I can find for the salvaging sense of "mungo" is from 1963... ----- New York Times, May 30, 1963, p. 14 A Sanitation foreman found $6,000 worth of mungo yesterday. Mungo is the sanitation workers' term for salvageable items found in refuse. ----- New York Times, Jan 2, 1972, p. 13 Among the scuba enthusiasts are a group known as Mungo divers, whom Mr. Miranda described as seagoing scavengers who search for copper and brass to sell to junk dealers. ----- New York Times, May 24, 1974, p. 29 The men said that one reason the bulk collection was so meager was that "mungo-pickers" (slang for scavengers) had carted off the good furniture the night before. ----- New York Times, Jul 21, 1977, p. 50 Jason Martinelli's idea of a night on the town is to jump into his mungo-picking outfit, jump into a commodious refuse bin, and just root around in there collecting "fantastic, free, found material" with which to decorate his apartment. In a word, garbage. To Mr. Martinelli and others in the city's subculture of scavengers the term is "mungo," however and the picking is easy-- once you know the rules. ----- --Ben Zimmer From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Mar 13 13:40:10 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:40:10 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: <3401.69.142.143.59.1110697889.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > Has The Finest Professors" Hahaha. This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". See also http://www.mit.edu/people/mjbauer/ihtfp.html , which claims 1960 for MIT use (though well-established then) and 1956 for the Air Force (is this from Heflin? I'm out of town and don't have my books handy). (HDAS has it to 1969 in Army use.) Can Fred illuminate the usage? Jesse Sheidlower OED From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 13:53:47 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:53:47 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: <200503131340.j2DDeBvO019257@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > > Has The Finest Professors" > > Hahaha. > > This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A > History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian > T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". I Hate This Fucking Place. When I was a student at Harvard Law School, it was common to refer to it as HFLS (Harvard Fucking Law School). Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Sun Mar 13 13:55:43 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:55:43 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 08:53:47AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > > > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute > > > Has The Finest Professors" > > > > Hahaha. > > > > This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A > > History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian > > T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". > > I Hate This Fucking Place. Er, yes, I thought it wasn't even necessary to express that this was the real expansion ;-) Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 16:27:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 08:27:57 -0800 Subject: Dork In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Somebody's gonna be hurtin' for certain. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Dork ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Re: Dork >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 03:19:17PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Thank you, Ben. Michael and I will not have to step outside after all. >> >>Damn, just when I thought ADS-L could be getting more exciting than >>your typical academic listserv. >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >While I find it quite comforting to be relegated to irrelevancy (where I >surely belong), I feel that I must defend my (and I believe, Jonathan's) >good intentions to duke it out if we could only have convinced our seconds >to do their duty. Having no second myself, I accept more than a half-share >of responsibility for the fizzle of the fracas. Anyone who says otherwise >is cruising for a bruising. > >Michael McKernan "Cruising for a bruising"? IMO, such a person is aching for a breaking. ;-) -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 13 17:44:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:44:17 -0500 Subject: the big picture (1926) Message-ID: >From Safire's "On Language" column today, regarding _The Big Picture: The New Logic of Money and Power in Hollywood_ by Edward Jay Epstein: ----- http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/magazine/13ONLANGUAGE.html I pick no nits with his thesis of a paradigm-dropping shift in the industry and its lingo, but one of his etymologies is speculative. Blockbuster, he reports, was "coined in the 1920's to denote a movie whose long line of customers could not be contained on a single city block." Though an online encyclopedia suggests a similar origin -- describing a play so successful that competing theaters on the block are "busted" -- no specific citation is given, and without a citation, you don't have a coinage you can bite on. I'd say blockbuster is World War II vintage and cite The Los Angeles Times of July 30, 1942: "The R.A.F. had lost 29 of the 600 bombers sent against Hamburg Sunday, when 175,000 incendiaries and hundreds of explosive bombs, including two-ton 'block busters,' were dumped in a 35-minute raid." In that same year, the phrase the big picture had its premiere. In his title, Epstein plays its movie meaning against its current sense of "an overview that brings perspective." Probably (now I'm the one speculating) the phrase grew out of the perspective in a painter's "broad canvas." The Big Picture, with initial caps to signify a theme, was used in 1931 by a Depression-era baseball official to describe the distinction that sportswriters bestowed on the St. Louis Cardinals star Pepper Martin, but its grand-perspective sense was first brought into play by Lt. Col. Robert Allen Griffin, in defining the word strategy in 1942: "The term applies to the big picture; it is used in direction of campaigns ... to win wars." ----- I can't do better on "blockbuster" (ever-reliable Newspaperarchive has a couple of hits dated as 1913, but they're actually from 1943). But 1942 seems late for the 'overview' sense of "the big picture". Without even hitting the newspaper databases, I find this 1926 cite on JSTOR: ----- "Tendencies in the Foreign Trade of the United States" by E. Dana Durand Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 127, (Sep. 1926), p. 21 All this will sound to a good many exporters both academic and idealistic. But is that not because details obscure the big picture? ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 17:51:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:51:05 -0800 Subject: defuse / diffuse Message-ID: The confusion is now international. From _The Hindustan Times_ (Mar. 7, 2005) [ http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1269811,00180008.htm ] : "Senior police officials including the Sub-Divisional Magistrate are camping in the area to diffuse the situation following angry protests against the five arrests." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Mar 13 19:15:14 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:15:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) Message-ID: Nothing new except an earlier instance than my 1908 Panama story. This time from Puerto Rico. Using Proquest, 20 May 1900 _New York Times_ pg 12 article entitled "LIGHT-HEARTED PORTO RICO" <> Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Mar 13 19:23:53 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:23:53 -0500 Subject: condom fatigue (was: Dialects in film) Message-ID: FRITZ JUENGLING >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>> wrote: And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the movie, thankfully!) <<< Fritz commented: >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like? <<< Which reminds me of a quote I've had in my pocket for a while: "New York City suffered a 17 percent spike in new HIV infections among gay men over three years. [PARAGRAPH] Some of this increase can be traced to simple condom fatigue." Philadelphia Weekly, Feb. 9-15, 2005 cover story; page 14, column 4, about halfway down. meaning apparently 'people's being tired of using condoms and therefore having sex without one', not 'condoms' wearing out through material overuse [one hopes not!] or aging [conceivable... I didn't say that]'. mark by hand From simon at IPFW.EDU Sun Mar 13 19:36:38 2005 From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:36:38 -0500 Subject: Dialects in film & tv Message-ID: (not as interesting as brad pitt and trojans, but) australian simon baker did a great disengaged educated-but-who-knows-where american english in the cancelled The Guardian beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 u.s. voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu >>> mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU 3/13/2005 2:23 PM >>> FRITZ JUENGLING >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>> wrote: And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the movie, thankfully!) <<< Fritz commented: >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like? <<< Which reminds me of a quote I've had in my pocket for a while: "New York City suffered a 17 percent spike in new HIV infections among gay men over three years. [PARAGRAPH] Some of this increase can be traced to simple condom fatigue." Philadelphia Weekly, Feb. 9-15, 2005 cover story; page 14, column 4, about halfway down. meaning apparently 'people's being tired of using condoms and therefore having sex without one', not 'condoms' wearing out through material overuse [one hopes not!] or aging [conceivable... I didn't say that]'. mark by hand From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 19:55:08 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:55:08 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <000601c52800$fe2cb120$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): (from N'archive) ---------- _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] <<"Do you think," said Sentry Laird to the alcalde after the floral offering had been made and accepted -- "do you think for a minnit that Leftenant Bobbie done the Hobson act for the likes of you? 'Twas for the battery M of the Seventh that worruk was did last night, I can tell you those, and you're not the first Spickety that has been here to-day to have a bookkay for him doin' it.">> ---------- Note the eye-dialect, and the pronunciation of "lieutenant". I don't know what "Hobson" refers to: apparently Lt. Bobbie had acted the hero in fighting a fire. Also in the piece is "Now will you be gone, you Spinnach?" spoken to the alcalde by Laird: I suppose probably "Spinnach" was "Spanish" expressed as "spinach", an alternative to "Spickety". -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 20:12:09 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:12:09 EST Subject: Spigoty (1901) (from Spaghetti, 1896?_ Message-ID: _Times Democrat _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2kHoqC81gExgr9tBgp9VkckpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz) Monday, April 08, 1901 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+spigoty+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+spigoty+AND) ...partment. The oScers met by j iatt a "SPIGOTY" dollar or a "SPIGOTY.....by .a writer in the Boston Transcript. SPIGOTY. according to one version, was.. Pg. 7, col. 4: _The Birth of "Spigoty."_ The new words arising from the mixture of American and Spanish in our new possessions may call, shortly, for new editions of our dictionaries. The story of one such word, "spigoty," has been traced by a writer in the Boston Transcript. Spigoty, according to one version, was the nickname given by troopers in the Second cavalry--stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas, in 1896--to a sallow-complexioned company man who admired an Italian girl called "Spaghretti." At the outbreak of the war these soldiers, together with their comrade "Spigoty," were transferred to Company A of the signal corps. After a stay at Chickamauga this company was sent to Porto Rico with General Miles' expedition, landed at Ponce and encamped later at Guayama. Here the men discovered that the natives themselves were of the same hue as "Spigoty," and in the course of time they therefore dubbed them "Spigoties." Soon the nickname spread, not only in Guayama, but throughout the province, and at last to every town on the islanf, till now the word has become a common means both of designating residents of Spanish or Porto Rican blood and describing everything characteristic of them, such as a "spigoty: hat, a "spigoty" dollar or a "spigoty" trick. Indeed, the Americans now ask one another: "Do you talk spigoty?" or "Can you dance spigoty?" Road-builder order, "Shovel in more dirt there, Spigoty"; housewives say, "Some more bread please, Spigoty," and even the natives themselves, when in need of an expression of contempt for a fellow being, now cry "Spigoty." From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sun Mar 13 20:13:22 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:13:22 -0500 Subject: the big picture (1926) Message-ID: Here's an earlier cite from Westlaw. For "big picture" meaning a money-making movie, from testimony given 8/1/1922 and quoted in a 1925 legal opinion, Parker v. Parker, 74 Cal.App. 646, 652, 241 P. 581, 583 (1925) (ellipses, or whatever those asterisks are, are original): <> John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 12:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: the big picture (1926) But 1942 seems late for the 'overview' sense of "the big picture". Without even hitting the newspaper databases, I find this 1926 cite on JSTOR: ----- "Tendencies in the Foreign Trade of the United States" by E. Dana Durand Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, Vol. 127, (Sep. 1926), p. 21 All this will sound to a good many exporters both academic and idealistic. But is that not because details obscure the big picture? ----- --Ben Zimmer From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sun Mar 13 20:17:48 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:17:48 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s In-Reply-To: <20050312050016.4334EB26BA@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Michael McKernan says: >>> As I see/hear it, dork matches geek a lot more closely than nerd does, in all the non-semantic aspects of synonymy. Then again, nobody else seems to be very interested in comparing geek/dork (nerd) to gorse/furze (whin). <<< A gorse is a gorse, of course, of course, And fur's never found on the gorse, of course. They may be whin-ny, but never dorks, As Mike McKernan said! sorry but not very... mark by hand filk.cracksandshards.com From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Sun Mar 13 20:28:24 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:28:24 -0500 Subject: Dork Message-ID: I'm sure some people sometimes use dork of someone who is suaveness challenged when the techie connotations of geek or nerd would be appropriate, but I was forever inoculated against such semantic drift by the person who told me what "dork" meant (5th-grade classmate, Little Flower parochial school, Chevy Chase, MD, c. 1957): a guy who goes around smelling girls' bicycle seats. Se?n Fitzpatrick A Lie can be all over the Internet before the Truth can boot up its ISP. www.logomachon.blogspot.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 20:34:56 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:34:56 -0500 Subject: "Jesus Juice" (Michael Jackson trial) In-Reply-To: <4232F123.2010601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: At 5:39 AM -0800 3/12/05, Tom Dalzell wrote: >>Her two comrades learned they could drop in, sit on the floor, >>exchange ideas, and sometimes drink beer or "Jesus juice," their >>own concoction of grape juice and gin. (29) Emily Toth. Inside >>Peyton Place: The Life of Grace Metalious (1981). Well, I still think MJ's use is more fitting that any of the competitors mentioned here. It was wine that Jesus (is reported as having) turned water into, not grape juice/gin or ethyl alcohol or various other concoctions, at least in the translations I'm familiar with. When I heard the quote during the trial coverage wrap-up on the ABC World News, my first thought was Euphemism of the Year, here we come! If it's been around as long as it appears (for wine, specifically), I'm not sure, but it's certainly a contenduh. Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 21:11:41 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:11:41 EST Subject: FWIW: "Mungo" Park Message-ID: Yes, as I said, Grant Barrett found "mungo" in the 1930s, which is earlier than 1963. ... I'd posted on "Don't go Mungo Park." That name might be a little obscure for 1930s Brooklyn, though. ... ... _Indiana Weekly Messenger _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2plb+6roubvoyhiDrKEsRTgZ5yinP7EMQEIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, May 22, 1907 _Indiana,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:indiana+called+mungo) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+called+mungo) ...and I'll tell you why this stuff was CALLED MUNGO. "Park, after making up a.....vigor that in gratitude to the tree be CALLED it cahuah, which in Arabia.. Pg. 6?, col. 3: _"MUNGO" PARK._ _The Worse Than Shoddy Fabric That_ _Gave Him His Name._ ... The old lady listened complacently to the compliments on her new gown. "Well, at any rate," she said as she smoothed the lustrous folds, "it isn't made of mungo." "Mungo? What is mungo?" asked he niece. "Have you never heard of Mungo Park?" said the old lady. "Yes, I think I have. I don't know what I've heard, though." "Well, I'll tell you. Mungo Park was an Englishman, and he lived at the time when shoddy was invented. He invented a stuff that was far worse than shoddy--a stuff beside which shoddy was fine, new wool--and I'll tell you why this stuff was called mungo. "Park, after making up a batch of it out of shoddy dust and grease, gave it anxiously to his carder to card. "The carder tried it. Then he sent for the boss. "'This new stock of yours won't go, Mr. Park,' he said. "'Mun go,' said the other in his Yorkshire dialect. 'It mun go, man.' "And go it did, and thus Park got his name, and thus that abominable stock that he invented came to get the name of mungo."--New Orleans Times-Democrat. ... ... ... _News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2lZGfn0gEuCvEBE7O5GayLlDf+dDR6BGN0IF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 26, 1970 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:m ansfield+called+mungo) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+called+mungo) ...back in the 1930's and 1940's who CALLED MUNGO names in stronger terms.....It's about a new record released CALLED "The Saga of Van Lingle MUNGO.. ... _Saga of Van Lingle Mungo_ _A Folk Song of Sorts_ From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 13 21:12:37 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:37 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:32 AM -0500 3/13/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >... >The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, >and both involve Brooklyn. >... >Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted >that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of Trade Jargon. >... >I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >spread from the >Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >pitches? >... He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 13 21:27:45 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:27:45 -0600 Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches Message-ID: 1. Check through the archives of the list: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l 2. If you have specific questions, most people on the list are pretty friendly and helpful. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Don Powell > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 1:56 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Don Powell > Subject: Origins of Sports Cliches > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Hi, I am new to the list. I have written a book titled Best > Sports = Clich=E9s Ever. It has received a good deal of > publicity and during = interviews I am usually asked if I > know the origins of the 1771 = clich=E9s in my book. I only > know several so any sports clich=E9 origins = you can provide > would be greatly appreciated. Don Powell > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 22:43:19 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:43:19 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I need to start reading these posts in reverse order. Good going, Doug. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): (from N'archive) ---------- _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] <<"Do you think," said Sentry Laird to the alcalde after the floral offering had been made and accepted -- "do you think for a minnit that Leftenant Bobbie done the Hobson act for the likes of you? 'Twas for the battery M of the Seventh that worruk was did last night, I can tell you those, and you're not the first Spickety that has been here to-day to have a bookkay for him doin' it.">> ---------- Note the eye-dialect, and the pronunciation of "lieutenant". I don't know what "Hobson" refers to: apparently Lt. Bobbie had acted the hero in fighting a fire. Also in the piece is "Now will you be gone, you Spinnach?" spoken to the alcalde by Laird: I suppose probably "Spinnach" was "Spanish" expressed as "spinach", an alternative to "Spickety". -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 22:40:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:40:56 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I believe I once mentioned, "spiggoty"" was said to have been in use during the Spanish- American War, and this cite may be as close as we're going to get. Anything pre-1921 on "gook" ? JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing new except an earlier instance than my 1908 Panama story. This = time from Puerto Rico. Using Proquest, 20 May 1900 _New York Times_ pg 12 article entitled = "LIGHT-HEARTED PORTO RICO" > Sam Clements __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 22:48:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:48:44 EST Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) Message-ID: Fred Shapiro surely has something. ... ... _New Albums Reflect Black Comics' Rise; The Rhythm Mode _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=167465292&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110752637&clientId=65882) By Hollie I. West. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 25, 1968. p. E2 (1 page) ... _Black Comedians Enjoy Renaissance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=513146222&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS =1110748810&clientId=65882) HOLLIE I WEST. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 30, 1968. p. E14 (1 page) ... In the last five years there has been a meteoric rise in the careers fo black comedians. No longer are Negro comics forced to perform only in ghetto theaters and nightclubs. They are now saturating network television and the country's top night spots with their appearances. ... As a result, the humor of black people is being woven into the national fabric more quickly than ever. The phrase "here come the judge" has become a nation-wide expression. .... The originateo of that phrase, Dewey [Pigmeat] Markham, is an old-line comedian, dating back to the days of vaudeville, On the strength of several recent television appearances, he is enjoying a good deal of currency. ... _Raw Variety_ ... Although he credited with opening doors for the new generation of black comedians, Markham will probably never have the popularity some of the younger black comics enjoy because his humor is of the raw, gut variety. He uses the language of the streets, but it is the language of a previous generation, colored with shades of rural black America. ... Markham does not use protest jokes. On the surface, one could not sense the social rebellion in this country by listening to him. But his is not Uncle Tom humor--it is black ghetto humor straight through. ... Markham is represented by two new albums, "Backstage" (Chess LPS 1621), which was recorded last November at Washington's Howard Theater, and "Here Come the Judge" (Chess LPS 1523). ... _Punch Lines_ ... The latter contains the comedians hit single record. Although it is currently popular, it is not very funny on repeated listenings. Indeed, the lines are dull the second tie around. ... But Markham's other comments on our system of jurisprudence, such as "The Trial," compensate for the dullness of the hit. These are filled withj excellent punch lines and convey a vividly absurd notion of a judge. (...) Bill Cosby, of course, is the most famous and popular living black comedian. He could probably read a baseball lineup and make us crack up. (Didn't that used to be "read the telephone book"?--ed.) ... ... ... _The Post Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4x2+z1TSDMcQmSdmcq+GuVJ0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 23, 1987 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+here+come+the+judge) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+here+come+the+judge) ...in your Funk and Wagnalls" and "HERE COME THE JUDGE." If TV shows have.....THE vague, inept lecher, and Rowan was THE straight man. Rowan appeared as THE.. ... ... _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrFXOXVeVwH3JZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, November 01, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+here+come+the+judge) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+here+come+the+judge) ...ty hot right now. I wrote Earl "HERE COME THE JUDGE" in 1928 when I was doin.....walk out without paying he says 'HERE COME dull JUDGE.' "such an erudite ... ... Pg. 16C, col. 1: EARL WILSON _New Life for Pigmeat_ ... NEW YORK - "Man, that chicken liver's good!" PIgmeat Markham, who was born Dewey Markham, said at a gfront table in Lindy's. "I have been eatin' Jewish food for 40 years. ... "This thing happened to me rather late in life," he said, "and I'm kinda tired. I'm 65 now - will be in April, and one e thing I learn is that home's the place to go to after work. Get to that bed and get some rest. That's the key to bein' an old man, rest. ... "Vacation? I don't see no spot for any. ... "Because 'the Judge' is pretty hot right now. I write 'Here come the judge' in 1928, when I doin' stock on the A;hambra. We kicked it around through burleque. ... "I did the judge on the Ed Sullivan show in 1847 when he had his program at Maxim's Theater, 49th and 7th. Ed didn't have a sponsor then and didn't pay much money, about $400 for five of us. ... "ED COME to Harlem lookin' for me. I was in a hospital. ... "I had a sketch. I'd see a ghost, and yell 'WOW' and go right through the roof on a piano wire. The piano wire broke and I broke both my legs. ... "I did the judge a lot of times for Ed. Sammy Davis saw me do it at the Apollo. Sammy tells me one night he run out of words on TV and so he says 'Here come duh judge.' The kids grabbed it and we (Col. 2--ed.) had 18 weeks on Rowan & Martin, and Ed brought me back. I got 18 albums and they got me bringin' a book out. ... "I come here from Furham, N.C., off a little truck show. Now I live in the Bronx with my wife and two children. I'm tryin' to get through college so I keep to the grindstone. ... "Funny thing about the beef blankets I use to bet the buy over the head with. Pig bladders don't get the effect of the beef bladders. So you have to have a connection to get them. The beef bladders I use are kosher. You don't have to use kosher but it happens that the connections I got is kosher." ... Pigmeat's a very serious gentleman as you can see. "I'm holdin' my money tighter than ever," he said. "If a man threw it away now he's really a fool. Oh, I threw away plenty in my younger days." ... ... 5. _Looking at Hollywood_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=483626662&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10753806&clientId=65882) Hedda Hopper. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 26, 1948. p. A9 (1 page) ... The Lunts' performances are sheer magic, but they could read the telephone directory and make it entertaining, John Hmableton, who saw the play with me, said, "Every contract written in Hollywood should contain a clause that when the Lunts come to town, the players must see them." ... ... ... _Oskar Werner: How Humble Can You Get?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=90667343&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110753093&clientId=65882) By REX REEDROME.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1968. p. D11 (1 page) ... If I make a few more films now, I could come to New York and read the telephone book. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 23:06:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:06:09 -0800 Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) Message-ID: You know you're a geezer when : . . . You first realize there are fully grown people who need to be told that Pigmeat Markham popularized "Here Come the Judge!" as a national catch-phrase on NBC's "Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In" in 1968. (Previously the same show had resurrected "Sock it to me!" During the election, even Richard Nixon appeared for five seconds to say it.) . . . You feel it necessary to point this realization out to others. I never missed an episode. Not one. The only other show that inspired such loyalty was "The Twilight Zone." JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: "Here come the judge" (1968); "Read the telephone directory" (1948) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred Shapiro surely has something. ... ... _New Albums Reflect Black Comics' Rise; The Rhythm Mode _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=167465292&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110752637&clientId=65882) By Hollie I. West. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Aug 25, 1968. p. E2 (1 page) ... _Black Comedians Enjoy Renaissance_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=513146222&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS =1110748810&clientId=65882) HOLLIE I WEST. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 30, 1968. p. E14 (1 page) ... In the last five years there has been a meteoric rise in the careers fo black comedians. No longer are Negro comics forced to perform only in ghetto theaters and nightclubs. They are now saturating network television and the country's top night spots with their appearances. ... As a result, the humor of black people is being woven into the national fabric more quickly than ever. The phrase "here come the judge" has become a nation-wide expression. .... The originateo of that phrase, Dewey [Pigmeat] Markham, is an old-line comedian, dating back to the days of vaudeville, On the strength of several recent television appearances, he is enjoying a good deal of currency. ... _Raw Variety_ ... Although he credited with opening doors for the new generation of black comedians, Markham will probably never have the popularity some of the younger black comics enjoy because his humor is of the raw, gut variety. He uses the language of the streets, but it is the language of a previous generation, colored with shades of rural black America. ... Markham does not use protest jokes. On the surface, one could not sense the social rebellion in this country by listening to him. But his is not Uncle Tom humor--it is black ghetto humor straight through. ... Markham is represented by two new albums, "Backstage" (Chess LPS 1621), which was recorded last November at Washington's Howard Theater, and "Here Come the Judge" (Chess LPS 1523). ... _Punch Lines_ ... The latter contains the comedians hit single record. Although it is currently popular, it is not very funny on repeated listenings. Indeed, the lines are dull the second tie around. ... But Markham's other comments on our system of jurisprudence, such as "The Trial," compensate for the dullness of the hit. These are filled withj excellent punch lines and convey a vividly absurd notion of a judge. (...) Bill Cosby, of course, is the most famous and popular living black comedian. He could probably read a baseball lineup and make us crack up. (Didn't that used to be "read the telephone book"?--ed.) ... ... ... _The Post Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4x2+z1TSDMcQmSdmcq+GuVJ0IF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, September 23, 1987 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+here+come+the+judge) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+here+come+the+judge) ...in your Funk and Wagnalls" and "HERE COME THE JUDGE." If TV shows have.....THE vague, inept lecher, and Rowan was THE straight man. Rowan appeared as THE.. ... ... _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrFXOXVeVwH3JZIjp2xnh7XEIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, November 01, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+here+come+the+judge) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+here+come+the+judge) ...ty hot right now. I wrote Earl "HERE COME THE JUDGE" in 1928 when I was doin.....walk out without paying he says 'HERE COME dull JUDGE.' "such an erudite ... ... Pg. 16C, col. 1: EARL WILSON _New Life for Pigmeat_ ... NEW YORK - "Man, that chicken liver's good!" PIgmeat Markham, who was born Dewey Markham, said at a gfront table in Lindy's. "I have been eatin' Jewish food for 40 years. ... "This thing happened to me rather late in life," he said, "and I'm kinda tired. I'm 65 now - will be in April, and one e thing I learn is that home's the place to go to after work. Get to that bed and get some rest. That's the key to bein' an old man, rest. ... "Vacation? I don't see no spot for any. ... "Because 'the Judge' is pretty hot right now. I write 'Here come the judge' in 1928, when I doin' stock on the A;hambra. We kicked it around through burleque. ... "I did the judge on the Ed Sullivan show in 1847 when he had his program at Maxim's Theater, 49th and 7th. Ed didn't have a sponsor then and didn't pay much money, about $400 for five of us. ... "ED COME to Harlem lookin' for me. I was in a hospital. ... "I had a sketch. I'd see a ghost, and yell 'WOW' and go right through the roof on a piano wire. The piano wire broke and I broke both my legs. ... "I did the judge a lot of times for Ed. Sammy Davis saw me do it at the Apollo. Sammy tells me one night he run out of words on TV and so he says 'Here come duh judge.' The kids grabbed it and we (Col. 2--ed.) had 18 weeks on Rowan & Martin, and Ed brought me back. I got 18 albums and they got me bringin' a book out. ... "I come here from Furham, N.C., off a little truck show. Now I live in the Bronx with my wife and two children. I'm tryin' to get through college so I keep to the grindstone. ... "Funny thing about the beef blankets I use to bet the buy over the head with. Pig bladders don't get the effect of the beef bladders. So you have to have a connection to get them. The beef bladders I use are kosher. You don't have to use kosher but it happens that the connections I got is kosher." ... Pigmeat's a very serious gentleman as you can see. "I'm holdin' my money tighter than ever," he said. "If a man threw it away now he's really a fool. Oh, I threw away plenty in my younger days." ... ... 5. _Looking at Hollywood_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=483626662&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11 10753806&clientId=65882) Hedda Hopper. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 26, 1948. p. A9 (1 page) ... The Lunts' performances are sheer magic, but they could read the telephone directory and make it entertaining, John Hmableton, who saw the play with me, said, "Every contract written in Hollywood should contain a clause that when the Lunts come to town, the players must see them." ... ... ... _Oskar Werner: How Humble Can You Get?_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=90667343&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110753093&clientId=65882) By REX REEDROME.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 2, 1968. p. D11 (1 page) ... If I make a few more films now, I could come to New York and read the telephone book. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 23:32:27 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:32:27 -0500 Subject: Gook (??) (1919) In-Reply-To: <20050313224319.71082.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Times-Democrat_ (Lima OH), 19 July 1919: p. 9: <> ---------- It surely does say "gooks". What does it mean? -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 13 23:37:44 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:37:44 EST Subject: "Read the telephone directory" (1947) Message-ID: _Valley News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2mEPtrn0h6GS/R+uA+aD/VvETHZjsJ+4TUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, September 04, 1964 _Van Nuys,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:van nuys+read+the+telephone+directory) _California_ (http://www.newspap erarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+read+the+telephone+directory) ...commented that Joao could READ THE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY aloud and make it.....of THE To THE which opens Sept. 15, at THE Riviera. Carradlne will play Lycus.. ... ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQpy1J9ve9Q8TVmwX1y7fktIkIF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, December 28, 1993 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+read+the+telephone+book) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+read+the+telephone+book) ...that THEy could probably READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and make it sound like.....no nudity or onscreen THE tUm Is about THE adult THE nicest sense of THE.. ... ... _Chronicle Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2j9lgB+i5OBG0hHQLUEN5Mt+C/D8AbE0ug==) Thursday, September 16, 1993 _Elyria,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:elyria+read+the+telephone+book) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+read+the+telephone+book) ...it for a laugh. Sinbad could READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and be fanny and you get.....about herself in print Her second BOOK, "My is due out in February, THE.. ... ... _Daily Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2rqgJovyaDWmajdJmgYLfXj0aMuvP+Cd3kIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 23, 1989 _Chicago,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+read+the+telephone+book) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+read+the+telephone+book) ...compared to watching someone READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK. At least THE Cruise film.....sion on THE casting director. She READ scenes twice for THE Barry THEn.. ... ... _Syracuse Herald Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2hflbllLYBQpy1J9ve9Q8TUMZmZnMMwkP0IF+CsZYmrz) Tuesday, December 28, 1993 _Syracuse,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+read+the+telephone+book) _New York_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new york+read+the+telephone+book) ...that THEy could probably READ THE TELEPHONE BOOK and make it sound like.....t about THE adult THE nicest sense of THE competition between THE two men for.. ... ... _ Nevada State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2n5CQ6UJ3/DeGwzQv5gH617/XFyoqAKe1w==) Tuesday, October 14, 1947 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+read+the+telephone+directory) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+read+the+telephone+directory) ...she couldn't e came out and READ THE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY." "Looks bad for.....and have only THE right to vote yes or READ THE snapped THE food czar. yes An.. ... Pg. 4, col. 6: "She plays the part of a native girl whose sailor friend has walked out on her. With that set-up, she couldn't miss if she came out and read the telephone directory." ("Pitching Horseshoes" by Billy Rose--ed.) ... ... Sorry for the typing mistakes on "here comes the judge." I spent a long time looking for "here come de judge" and "here comes the judge" and "here come the judge" and other variants on ProQuest and Newspaperarchive and Paper of Record, and it sure feels good to be called a geezer after that. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 13 23:39:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 15:39:47 -0800 Subject: Gook (??) (1919) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Beats me. Context works against a misprint of "geeks." (They'd only need one anyway.) Zebras? No, there's some kind of mistake here. Or else it's a very rare and unrecorded sense. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Gook (??) (1919) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Times-Democrat_ (Lima OH), 19 July 1919: p. 9: > ---------- It surely does say "gooks". What does it mean? -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 13 23:47:13 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 18:47:13 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050313182459.02ffb970@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: From N'archive: ---------- _Evening Post_ (Frederick MD), 22 May 1912: p. 4: << [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, The dodoes used to sing; And the aepornis [sic: "aepyornis" --DW] wandered out In prehistoric spring. The dinosourus [sic] built its nest, The gooks were on the wing; And behemoths were quite a pest In prehistoric spring. Oh, mankind hasn't changed its ways, To habits old we cling. The bards sang these same roundelays In prehistoric spring. >> ---------- The other creatures named here have recognizable names. But what is the "gook"? -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 00:21:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:21:06 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Am still mystified. Earliest HDAS sense (simpleton) is from college use around this period. I wonder if this "gook" was some kind of imaginary creature from a comic strip or something (cf. career of "jeep"). Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" (ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From N'archive: ---------- _Evening Post_ (Frederick MD), 22 May 1912: p. 4: << [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, The dodoes used to sing; And the aepornis [sic: "aepyornis" --DW] wandered out In prehistoric spring. The dinosourus [sic] built its nest, The gooks were on the wing; And behemoths were quite a pest In prehistoric spring. Oh, mankind hasn't changed its ways, To habits old we cling. The bards sang these same roundelays In prehistoric spring. >> ---------- The other creatures named here have recognizable names. But what is the "gook"? -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Mon Mar 14 00:42:55 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:42:55 -0500 Subject: "@" as Gender Wildcard in Spanish Message-ID: Does any know if any work has been done on the "@" symbol as a gender wildcard in Spanish? It's kind of like the equivalent of "he/she" in English: instead of writing "Chicano/Chicana," one might write "Chican at ." There are also examples online of Latin@(s), ni?@(s), Mexican@(s), and in a few places, the plural articles and adjectives are wildcarded, too, as in "L at s Ni?@s Palestin at s." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 01:56:41 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:56:41 -0500 Subject: Re "bracketology" Message-ID: Marginally interesting, or at least curious: The word itself has probably been around for awhile on espn and elsewhere (56K google hits.) But what's weird is the pronunciation (or at least the most frequent one) of "bracketology" (the discussion of the brackets for the NCAA men's basketball tournament, just selected tonight) on espn, with a flap, as if it were "brackedology". Basically, they're not resyllabifying it the way one does with, say, cosmetology, although of course that's not the study of cosmets. But if there were a field that studied comets--hey, there *are* 13K hits for the field, not all of which are typos--I'd wager it's pronounced with a real [t] and not a flap. So what's up with bracke[D]ology? larry From gorion at GMAIL.COM Mon Mar 14 02:09:26 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:09:26 -0500 Subject: "@" as Gender Wildcard in Spanish In-Reply-To: <4234de11.1f57e7c1.3964.fffff2fcSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: All I can add is that is also common in Italian -- "qualcun@" and a zillion others. What search engine are you using to find these? Other shorthands I've seen in Italian x -- "per" (by/for) -- "xche" (this probably also works for spanish "por" and french "par") + -- "piu" -- "+bici; +kaos" (more bikes; more chaos -- shout-outs of a Milan bike "gang") 6 -- "sei" (you are) -- "Eva 6 bona" Hmm... if I can dig up my copy of "Le Mille Lire Scritte" (an Italian tollbooth worker's collection of things written on 1000 lire notes, published in 1995) I could find more. I could maybe get a decent Verbatim article out of what I've been casually collecting on this. O. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 04:51:53 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 23:51:53 -0500 Subject: "All dressed up and no place to go" (1913) Message-ID: HERE COME THE JUDGE--I don't know if I had made it clear, but I had posted that citation because it states that Markham used it in 1928. I believe that it is earlier and pre-Pigmeat. The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "All dressed up with nowhere to go" from William Allen White, 1916. Meatloaf sang that lyric as well, in the 1970s. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) News of the Theaters.; "The Red Canary" Is Quite Worth While. PERCY HAMMOND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 21, 1913. p. 10 (1 page): "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go" is the title of Raymond Hitchock's comic lamentation this season in "The Beauty Shop" THE CATERPILLAR. GEORGE FITCH. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Mar 18, 1914. p. 4 (1 page): As a matter of fact, the caterpillar is all dressed up and has nowhere to go. "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go--" Did That Song Writer Ever Live Here?; We Need a Place to Rest, a Place to Laugh and Frolic Isma Dooly. The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Apr 4, 1915. p. C3 (1 page) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 06:20:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:20:29 -0500 Subject: MIT slang list (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Fred Shapiro >Subject: Re: MIT slang list (1962) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 02:11:29AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > IHTFP - An expression of loyalty towards the Institute, meaning "Institute >> > Has The Finest Professors" >> >> Hahaha. >> >> This one has a long association with MIT; The 2003 book _Nightwork: A >> History of Hacks and Pranks at MIT_ is written by "Institute Historian >> T. F. Peterson". There's also "Interesting Hacks To Fascinate People". > >I Hate This Fucking Place. This expansion, i.e. I Hate This Fucking Place, was used, in the Army, of the post at which one had the misfortune to be stationed. Related to this was the saying, "There are only two good posts: the one that you came from and the one that you're going to," a rendition of a couple of old saws: "better the devil you know than the one you don't" and "you never miss the water till the well runs dry." -Wilson Gray > When I was a student at Harvard Law School, it >was common to refer to it as HFLS (Harvard Fucking Law School). > >Fred > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 07:03:58 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:03:58 -0500 Subject: Home on the Range; Bury me not on lone prairie; Overpaid, Oversexed, and Over Here Message-ID: I'm checking some "anonymous" sayings listing in the American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations. -------------------------------------------------------------- CONNECTICUT, "LAND OF STEADY HABITS" There are some "Steady Habits" in the 1790s; it's definitely associated with Connecticut by about 1800. I haven't checked the Adams papers. (LITERATURE ONLINE) Woodworth, Samuel, 1784-1842 [Author Page] NEW-HAVEN: A POEM. 42Kb , [from The poems, odes, songs, and other metrical effusions (1818)] [Durable URL for this text] Found 5 hit(s). ...Here moral worth and " Steady Habits" reign, While Vice and... ...still we trace The " steady habits" of your fathers' race;... ...attorneys as "the land of steady habits," who all grow rich... ...cannot be, Candour and " steady habits" won't agree; An age... ...thought, The term of " steady habits" lured me here, And... Chester, Leonard, 1750-1803 [Author Page] Federalism Triumphant in the Steady Habits of Connecticut Alone (1801) 278Kb ...4050 Federalism Triumphant in the Steady Habits of Connecticut Alone (1801)... FEDERALISM TRIUMPHANT IN THE STEADY HABITS OF CONNECTICUT ALONE, OR, THE TURNPIKE ROAD TO A FORTUNE. A COMIC OPERA OR, POLITICAL FARCE IN SIX ACTS, As performed at the Theatres Royal and Aristocratic at Hartford and New-Haven October, 1801. [Durable URL for this text] Found 16 hit(s): 2 FEDERALISM TRIUMPHANT IN THE STEADY HABITS OF CONNECTICUT ALONE ,... Main text [Durable URL for this text] ACT I. [Durable URL for this text] ---SCENE I. [Durable URL for this text] ...the well born , our steady habits, and well arranged systems,... ...ponderancy to keep up our steady habits, cheer up Colonel, build... ...those alone, we maintain our steady habits, the priests will flinch... -------------------------------------------------------------- "BURY ME NOT ON THE LONE PRAIRIE" (GOOGLE) http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/cowboy-songs/001543.HTM A cowboy is dying. He asks to be taken home and buried in his family home. His request is ignored; he is buried in a small and isolated prairie grave Probably adapted from "The Ocean Burial," written by Rev. Edwin H. Chapin (1839). For the complex question of the tune, see the notes on that piece. - RBW (GOOGLE) http://stp.ling.uu.se/pipermail/dcml/2002-April/018545.html <> (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) TWO MONTHS A COWBOY. G. F. BLANDY.. Forest and Stream; A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). New York: Nov 1, 1888. Vol. VOL. XXXI., Iss. No. 15; p. 283 (2 pages) First page: Several had good voices and when "The Dying Cowboy" was sung all was still except the clear voice of Dick as he sang: "Oh bury me not on the lone prairie, Where the coyotes howl, and the winds they blow." -------------------------------------------------------------- "HOME ON THE RANGE" Nothing on Newspaperarchive? The American Heritage Dictionary has "ANONYMOUS, cowboy song, 1860s or earlier." Also: "Folk music expert John A Lomax first recorded this song in San Antonio, Texas, in 1908, from a 'Negro singer who ran a beer saloon out beyond the Southern Pacific depot, in a scrubby mesquite grove' (_Folk Song U.S.A._). Not sung so often nowadays is the third verse: 'The red man was pressed from this part of the West,/He's likely no more to return/To the banks of the Red River where seldom if ever/Their flickering campfires burn." (GOOGLE) The Official story of "Home on the Range"... years, a Lawsuit was filed on the original writing and music of "Home on the Range". ... Goodwin had written the words of a song entitled" My Arizona Home" and Mrs ... raven.cc.ku.edu/heritage/kssights/home/official.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE) NPR : Home on the Range, Present at the Creation... the territory, and cowboys constantly on the move, "Home on the Range" spread across the ... So it became 'My Colorado Home' and 'My Arizona Home,'" Averill says. ... www.npr.org/programs/morning/ features/patc/homeontherange/ - 24k - April 29, 2002 -- When Dr. Brewster Higley sat down on the banks of Kansas' Beaver Creek in 1872 and jotted down the lines that would become "Home on the Range," he had little notion that his words would reverberate well into the next century. By the time he died in 1911, the rest of the country had little idea of the song's true origins. As it trickled across America, on its way to the Oval Office and the Rocky Mountains, the legacy left to Dr. Higley by his most famous contribution to American culture was one of anonymity. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) $500,000 SUIT HINGES ON SHIFTING OF NOUNS; Authors Charge That 'Arizona Home' Was Changed to Make 'Home on the Range.' New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 15, 1934. p. 3 (1 page): Mr. and Mrs. William Goodwin, authors in 1905 of "Arizona Home," began suit yesterday in Federal court charging that "Home on the Range," a song much sung on the radio, was in reality an adaptation or their own words and tune. The plaintiffs charged that the defendants, who include publishing houses and several individuals, departed from the spirit of the original piece by turning singular nouns into plurals and vice verse. So that the court had before it the following delicate example: "Oh give me a home where the buffalo roam, Where the deer and the antelope play, There seldom is heard a discouraging word, And the sky is not cloudy all day." As against: "Oh give me a home where the buffaloes roam, Where the deers and the antelopes play There seldom is heard a discouraging word And the skies are not cloudy all day." -------------------------------------------------------------- "I EXPECT TO PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE..." The American Heritage states: "_Bartlett_'s points out that this has been attributed to many people, and most often to Stephen Grellet, a French QUaker cleric, who came to the U.S. in 1795. But no attribution has been verified." (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES) Article 3 -- No Title Friends' Intelligencer (1853-1910). Philadelphia: Mar 20, 1869. Vol. 26, Iss. 3; p. 37 (1 page): "I expect to pass through this world but once. If, therefore, there be any kindness I can show, or any good thing I can do to any fellow human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I will not pass this way again." Article 1 -- No Title Advocate of Peace (1847-1906). Washington: Jan 1872. Vol. 3, Iss. 37; p. A2 (1 page): A worthy Quaker thus wrote: "I expect to pass through this world but once. If, therefore there can be any kindness I can do to any fellow being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I will not pass this way again." (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Disraell and His Wife. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 1, 1894. p. 16 (1 page): _Its Origin_ The quotation beginning, "I expect to pass through this world but once," has been inquired for many times and sought diligently. Somebody has found the idea expressed in a little poem bu Joseph A. Terney: "Through this toilsome world, alas! Once and only once I pass. If a kindness I may show, If a good deed I may do To any suffering fellow-man, Let me do it while I can. Nor delay it, for 'tis plain I shall not pass this way again." And somebody else writes that he has discovered that the quotation, almost exactly as used by Pro. Drummond, is from the epitaph on the tomb of Edward Courtenay, Earl of Devonshire. --_Book Buyer_. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) St Joseph Herald Saturday, February 27, 1869 Saint Joseph, Michigan ...thus I ex pect to PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE there be any kindness I.....thing to and work he or at least try ONCE more. BUT he was unequal to the and.. Coshocton Democrat Tuesday, December 15, 1874 Coshocton, Ohio ...who wrote, expect to PASS THROUGH THIS WORLD BUT ONCE. If, therefore, there be.....liftedthe honseand-jami mod his head' THROUGH the head screamed flrei 'and.. -------------------------------------------------------------- OVERSEXED, OVERPAID, OVERFE, AND OVER HERE A 1944 date is probably good enough for this WWII quotation. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Leonard Lyons Says: The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 30, 1944. p. S6 (1 page): In London the story is being told of an American official who was anxious to discover the nature of the British complaints against the American soldiers based there. He finally asked one Britisher: "What do you think is wrong with the American soldiers?"...The Britisher answered: "Well, they're over-dressed, they're over-paid, they're over-sexed and they're over here." Joe Legion, Private First Class; Mr. Sherwood gives a close-up of the man who will help liquidate Hitler. Joe Legion, Private First Class Joe Legion, Pfc. By ROBERT E. SHERWOODLONDON (By Wireless).. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 28, 1944. p. SM5 (3 pages) Third page: "There's a great gag going around the camp. It's about what is the only trouble with them American troops in England--they're overpaid, over-decorated, over-sexed--and over here." Handy Booklet Insures If Diplomat Dooms Us, He Will Do So Politely; Be Assured That If the End Comes Our Envoys Will Be Impeccably Dressed By Mary Van Rensselaer Thayer. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 6, 1949. p. S1 (2 pages) Second page: We must, of course, overlook the probably painfully true crack about our heroes, current in England at that time "--(they're overpaid, oversexed and, worst of all, _over here_." BRITISH WIT VET [1917]. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 23, 1950. p. 12 (1 page): "Oversexed, overpaid, and over here." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 14 08:20:50 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:20:50 -0500 Subject: "Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug" (1991); Smile (1870) Message-ID: "THERE ARE MANY LANGUAGES, BUT A SMILE SPEAKS ALL OF THEM" "Smile speaks all languages" is in varying froms. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Grand Traverse Herald Thursday, December 01, 1870 Traverse City, Michigan ...or tongues makes any dif- ference. A SMILE SPEAKS the universal lan- guage.....Thin hands whose labor is nearly Calm SMILE uf happiness lost and won. Closely.. Edwardsville Intelligencer Thursday, June 09, 1927 Edwardsville, Illinois ...be that is the time laugh heartily. A SMILE SPEAKS all languages. Cleanliness.....chestnuts without getting so much as a SMILE from the and then to.. Dothan Eagle Sunday, March 11, 1951 Dothan, Alabama ...THE DOTHAN EAGLE. March 1951 FOR TODAY SMILE SPEAKS the universal language. I.....value myself o n says is on-having a SMILE -that low. They are such prompt.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, May 20, 1999 Syracuse, New York ...a hundred lan- guages in the world. A SMILE SPEAKS for all of them. Youth is a.....grand- children. Don'i go to bed mad. SMILE often. Life is like chocolate cake.. -------------------------------------------------------------- "SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE WINDSHIELD, SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE BUG" These have become like the "full deckisms." I searched for "some days you're the" and "some times you're the." (GOOGLE) http://www.ealasaid.com/quotes/anon-unk.html "Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant." ------- Unknown Sometimes you're the pigeon, sometimes you're the statue. -------Unknown Sometimes you're the windsheild, someimes you're the bug. -------Unknown (The below is not related, but I'll look for this later in The Crimson--ed.) Harvard Law: Under the most rigidly controlled conditions of pressure, temperature, volume, humidity, and other variables, the organism will do as it damn well pleases. YOU'RE THE HYDRANT--6,930 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits YOU'RE THE STATUE--6,220 Google hits, 12,200 Google Groups hits YOU'RE THE WINDSHIELD--8,790 Google hits, 19,200 Google Groups hits (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Chronicle Telegram Saturday, May 17, 1997 Elyria, Ohio ...re THE shield, Sometimes YOU'RE THE BUG" has a message that is easier to.....using Garth Brooks' "Standing Outside THE Fire" and a Billy Dean song, "We're.. (FACTIVA) TV-Features CHUNG'S SPIRITS ARE `SOARING' AFTER SHOW OF SUPPORT Gail Shister KNIGHT-RIDDER NEWS SERVICE 574 words 7 June 1995 The Salt Lake Tribune C5 English (Copyright 1995) The moral of the story, says Connie Chung, "is that some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue." (FACTIVA) NEWS Shallow end of pool spawns pithy sayings Pull over and check the air in your head By George Gamester Toronto Star 442 words 8 January 1990 The Toronto Star FIN A4 English Copyright (c) 1990 The Toronto Star You know what we mean . . . SOME DAYS YOU'RE THE BIRD. OTHER DAYS YOU'RE THE STATUE. (FACTIVA) D;SPORTS Ringer's chapter of fairy tale ends John Hawkins THE WASHINGTON TIMES 988 words 1 July 1995 The Washington Times 2 D1 English (Copyright 1995) "Some days, you're the dog and other days, you're the fire hydrant." (FACTIVA) LEISURE GUIDE RECORD REVIEWS 'On Every Street' follows Straits' path ROCK On Every Street. Dire Straits. Warner Bros. COUNTRY For My Broken Heart. Reba McEntire. MCA. JAZZ RAP Son of the P. Digital Underground. Tommy Boy. Steve Dollar, staff writer 912 words 26 October 1991 Atlanta Journal and Constitution L/19 English (Copyright 1991 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution) Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits stick to the blueprint when they make a record these days: Like the multi-platinum 1985 effort "Brothers in Arms," "On Every Street" has a few "Money for Nothing"-type chuckle-along novelty songs, including the first single, "Calling Elvis." It has the usual portions of blues, country confession and, on the wry "The Bug" (chorus: "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug"), pop psychology. (GOOGLE GROUPS) Poll of New Ship names???? ... not? Thanx -+- -+ Nicholas C. Hester | Some days you're the bug, some days you're the | ia80... at Maine.Bitnet | windshield. | ia80024 ... rec.arts.startrek - Mar 22 1991, 7:03 am by Nicholas C. Hester - 8 messages - 8 authors annoying phone calls ... Hey, sometimes you're the semi and sometimes you're the 'possum. --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley" rec.humor - Mar 23 1991, 5:12 am by JOSEPH T CHEW PAL request ... Mail me to: asav... at otax.tky.hut.fi - Pekka ----- Andy (The Android) Combs | "Sometimes you're the windshield, android at cs ... rec.arts.anime - Sep 15 1991, 3:47 am by Alexander Banes Combs - 1 message - 1 author Star Trek and porn ... Andy (The Android) Combs | "Sometimes you're the windshield, android at cs. utexas.edu | sometimes you're the bug." | Dire Straits alt.sex.movies - Sep 28 1991, 3:34 am by Alexander Banes Combs - 29 messages - 28 authors GUS USERS! use that newsgroup! -please- ... would be using it, but this is not it. PS, you f*cked up your redirect. -- Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard - Mar 11 1993, 2:10 pm by Ron "Asbestos" Dippold - 13 messages - 10 authors bay area speed ... old dog new tricks, but you CAN beat it with a rolled up newspaper... Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the newspaper. rec.motorcycles - Aug 17 1994, 1:59 am by Go CRAZY with the CheezeWhiz - 5 messages - 5 authors MIRANDA RIGHTS ... the posts?! (Or, is it West Virginia?) -- /___/\ Sometimes you're _+__ Sometimes you're / \ the dog.... /_____\ the hydrant. ( 'v ... alt.tv.nypd-blue - Feb 3 1995, 7:03 am by Judi McCracken/ILL/Wise Library - 9 messages - 8 authors Scams against Newcomers ... The autoreplies can trickle in for days. -- Gordy Thompson some days you're the statue, g... at panix.com -=0=- some days you're the pigeon. news.newusers.questions - Jan 12 1994, 1:03 am by uh..Clem - 2 messages - 2 authors help: cmu-snmp on Solaris ... Concordia College Voice: (402) 643-7445 Computing Center Seward, NE 68434 Fax: (402) 643-4073 "Sometimes you're the pigeon, and sometimes you're the statue." comp.protocols.snmp - Oct 28 1996, 6:33 pm by Russell Mosemann - 5 messages - 5 authors From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Mon Mar 14 11:34:40 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 06:34:40 -0500 Subject: Gorze: not just a furze any more Message-ID: Gorse as public enemy: http://www.taos-telecommunity.org/epow/EPOW-Archive/archive_2005/EPOW-050307.htm Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 13:36:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:36:17 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn Message-ID: "Well, I can't sleep at night. "I just _catchnap_ through the day" -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 13:44:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 08:44:50 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 4:32 AM -0500 3/13/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>I was looking for "san man" and spotted a "mungo." >>... >>The HDAS has "mongo {orig. unk.]." There are citations from 1985 and 1995, >>and both involve Brooklyn. >>... >>Grant Barrett made a "mongo" entry on Double-Tongued Word Wrester. He noted >>that the term was spotted as "mungo" in the 1938 WPA Lexicon of >>Trade Jargon. >>... >>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >>spread from the >>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >>pitches? >>... >He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >larry And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early '70's, Mungo Jerry. -Wilson Gray From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Mar 14 14:35:21 2005 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:35:21 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: >"Well, I can't sleep at night. >"I just _catchnap_ through the day" Hmmm. Catnap? Catch a nap? I do not know the etymology, and a quick look at OED did not help me ... am I missing something? Bethany From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:40:25 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 07:40:25 -0800 Subject: cross amputation Message-ID: from the NYT Week in Review, 3/13/05, "Shariah's Reach", p. 4: Iran. 2002. At least three were reported sentenced to death by stoning. Amnesty International recorded 9 amputations as punishments, including one cross amputation (for example, a right hand and left foot). not in OED Online or our archives. about 1,400 Google web hits, a number of them with "cross amputation" in quotation marks, indicating that the writer didn't expect readers to be familiar with the term. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:40:56 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:40:56 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" quotes from news archive: ---------- [title] Long Ago. The pterodactyls flew about, [...] ---------- Is there any credit for the author? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:46:12 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:46:12 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter observes: >>>>> Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) <<<<< For what it's worth, "sour" is a much better Latin pronunciation of that syllable than "sore"... although I doubt that they would have said "deeno-". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 15:55:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:55:59 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <20050314050058.B1C4FB2595@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: "Douglas G. Wilson" notes: >>>>> I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): ---------- (from N'archive) _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] [...] <<<<< 1. And this is presumably the origin of "spic" for 'Puerto Rican'. 2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the apparent contradiction? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:08:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:08:11 -0500 Subject: Bomb Message-ID: In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 14 16:08:47 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:08:47 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Jonathan Lighter > When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This > was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient > undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, > but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > term. > Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a (semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:28:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:28:29 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >>>spread from the >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage >>>pitches? >>>... >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html >> >>larry > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > >-Wilson Gray and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway stage)? larry From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET Mon Mar 14 16:41:36 2005 From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:41:36 +0000 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) Message-ID: Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy 70s pop hit. Carrie Lowery jimsmuse at comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's > >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a > >>>spread from the > >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage > >>>pitches? > >>>... > >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm > >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See > >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >> > >>larry > > > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early > >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > > > >-Wilson Gray > > and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > stage)? > > larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 16:48:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:48:54 -0500 Subject: Blues eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:35 AM -0500 3/14/05, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Wilson Gray wrote: > >>"Well, I can't sleep at night. >>"I just _catchnap_ through the day" > >Hmmm. Catnap? Catch a nap? I do not know the etymology, and a quick look >at OED did not help me ... am I missing something? > >Bethany I don't think you're missing anything. I took this, as I'm assuming Wilson did, as an eggcorn in which "catnap" was reanalyzed by influence from "catch a nap", whence "catchnap". Nice one! Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 16:55:05 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:55:05 -0500 Subject: Herp Message-ID: Richard Dawkins, in The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution (2004), writes on page 250 of the U.S. edition about the distinctive term "herp": <> While there are abbreviations without long forms, such as Ms. and Mrs. (the latter originally but no longer an abbreviation for mistress), I take it that herp is something simpler and commoner: a back-formation, probably from herpetology. Google Groups has "herps" from 12/11/1989 and a reference to the "Chicago "Herp" Society" on 3/19/1986. Dawkins also introduces "concestor," his coinage for a common ancestor, used passim throughout the book. We'll see if it catches on. John Baker From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Mar 14 17:42:08 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:42:08 -0800 Subject: Bomb Message-ID: Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. Fritz >>> halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU Mon Mar 14 17:46:19 2005 From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:46:19 -0600 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <200503141742.j2EHgU1m023066@bama.ua.edu> Message-ID: I can refer to something as being "the bomb," meaning excellent. Different from the MIT slang list meaning, but still an AmEng positive meaning. Rachel FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: Bomb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. > I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. > Fritz > > >>>>halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> > > In the MIT slang list was: > > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East > Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage > - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To > me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of > 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it > has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow University of Alabama Libraries Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266 Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833 rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 14 18:27:02 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:27:02 -0800 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: The paddle. "It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. ----- i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 18:45:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:45:38 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I would have said "deenosou'rus" back when I was speaking Latin on a daily basis. Well, five days a week anyway. "Dinosaurus" did not appear in any of our authors, however. Pity. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter observes: >>>>> Re "dinosourus." Walter Cronkite always says "dinosour." This is evidence for the pronunciations antiquity. (Though come to think of it, so is Cronkite.) <<<<< For what it's worth, "sour" is a much better Latin pronunciation of that syllable than "sore"... although I doubt that they would have said "deeno-". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Mar 14 18:48:39 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:48:39 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: Like a cross?? On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as "not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:00:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:00:48 -0800 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, Mark. "Spic" had an alternate, now obsolete, spelling as "spig." Both were common in the armed services. JL "Mark A. Mandel" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" Subject: Re: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Douglas G. Wilson" notes: >>>>> I presume that the original expression was "speak the [English]" pronounced by a Spanish-speaker /spik[a]di/ or so. Of course this can be rendered as a pseudo-English word ostensibly related to "spigot". It can also be rendered other ways. Here is "Spickety" (cf. "spickety-span"): ---------- (from N'archive) _Daily Iowa State Press_, 24 Aug. 1899: p. 7(?): [supposedly from the _Atlanta Constitution_: "Lieutenant Bobbie: A True Story of a Thrilling Incident of the Campaign in Porto Rico", by Milt Saul] [...] <<<<< 1. And this is presumably the origin of "spic" for 'Puerto Rican'. 2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the apparent contradiction? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:06:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:06:23 -0500 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: <4235B70F.8080600@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 11:08 AM -0500 3/14/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > >>When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This >> was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient >> undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, >> but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > >>Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > > term. > >>Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." > >Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening >catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't >think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot >in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a >(semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something >positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). > And "dirt" used to be a lot *more* negative; even the "filth" sense is a narrowing/amelioration from the original drecative meaning. (See OED, sense 1.) Larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Mar 14 19:00:55 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <1110816491.4235b6eb4bb08@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: To "bomb" a test meant to fail it badly when I was in school in the 1970s. Joanne On 14 Mar 2005, at 11:08, Damien Hall wrote: > In the MIT slang list was: > > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East > Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage > - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To > me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of > 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it > has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:06:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:06:29 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've interpreted those T-shirts to communicate humorously and punningly the covert prestige of being a small child whose report card reads "Plays in the dirt," i.e., like a naughty little brat. Another famous report-card comment is "Runs with scissors," indicating a tiny, heedless simpleton who's probably going to kill h**self some day. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Lighter > When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This > was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient > undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, > but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > term. > Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a (semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:09:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:09:47 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0800 3/14/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. It is half of a crucifix, after all. Maybe at places like Robert E. Lee Elementary in Oklahoma, the mind tends to complete the crucifix with the missing perpendicular the way one tends to complete triangles with missing parts... Larry From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 19:11:36 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:11:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Note that, as so often is the case, personal selectivity and interpretation matter a great deal. McConnell could have interpreted the verse as simply urging punishment and discipline, without being specific as to the manner of the punishment. He could also have emphasized the New Testament teachings of Jesus, which typically mitigate the severity of the Old Testament teachings. An example would be "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7) That McConnell chose instead to advocate beating the children in his care was the result of his own choices, not just a neutral reading of the Bible. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Arnold M. Zwicky Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:27 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: adjective "Christian" from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: The paddle. "It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. ----- i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:14:59 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:14:59 -0600 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) Puritan is my guess. Barbara From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:16:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:16:22 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B8B@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... L From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:20:17 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:20:17 -0600 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L Except that I have often seen material from the Old Testament co-opted as "Christian". Barbara From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Mar 14 19:22:08 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:22:08 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not keeping kosher. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:23:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:23:43 -0800 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Then there's the mysterious Planet Mongo and its villainous ruler, Ming the Merciless, big deals in Flash Gordon serials of the '30s. A personal note. I used to wonder how Mungo Park got such a cool name. In high school I was tempted to tell people to "call me Mungo." Never did though. JL Your Name wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Your Name Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy 70s pop hit. Carrie Lowery jimsmuse at comcast.net -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's > >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a > >>>spread from the > >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for throwing garbage > >>>pitches? > >>>... > >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm > >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See > >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html > >> > >>larry > > > >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early > >'70's, Mungo Jerry. > > > >-Wilson Gray > > and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > stage)? > > larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:26:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:26:47 -0800 Subject: Herp In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The editors and contributors to _Reptiles_ magazine, aimed at pet-owners and breeders, use "herp" freely to include amphibians as well. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Herp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dawkins, in The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution (2004), writes on page 250 of the U.S. edition about the distinctive term "herp": <> While there are abbreviations without long forms, such as Ms. and Mrs. (the latter originally but no longer an abbreviation for mistress), I take it that herp is something simpler and commoner: a back-formation, probably from herpetology. Google Groups has "herps" from 12/11/1989 and a reference to the "Chicago "Herp" Society" on 3/19/1986. Dawkins also introduces "concestor," his coinage for a common ancestor, used passim throughout the book. We'll see if it catches on. John Baker __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 14 19:33:18 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:33:18 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACC3A@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: At 2:22 PM -0500 3/14/05, Baker, John wrote: > McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >keeping kosher. > Or not getting circumcised, or wearing wool with linen, or ruling out slavery,... >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > > >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:36:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:36:55 -0800 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., 'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going on since at least 1997. ISTR the test-related positive usage from the distant past but am too lazy to dig out HDAS I for it right now. (It may simply be autosuggestion, however.) JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: Bomb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't bomb=excellence a Britishism? I remember an episode of Hogan's Heroes in which the heroes are speaking of some performance (in London, I believe) in which the performer 'bombed.' It was Newkirk who says it. At first, it makes no sense to the American ear. I don't ever recall bomb=excellence in American English. Fritz >>> halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU 03/14/05 08:08AM >>> In the MIT slang list was: 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:43:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:43:49 -0800 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I think the "meaning" is the same; it's just being used by a #^!%@*& Shifts in meaning encouraged by the usage of #^!%@*&s have not been adequately studied, IMO. JL David Bergdahl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like a cross?? On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as "not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 19:54:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:54:23 -0800 Subject: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Ah, "drecative." A star is born! JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Collegiate "geek" in the '70s (was Re: Synonymy avoidance) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:08 AM -0500 3/14/05, David Bowie wrote: >From: Jonathan Lighter > >>When my wife did botanical research in the '60s, she was instructed > > that the stuff that grows plants must always be called "soil." This >> was not to impress customers. It was because "dirt" has the salient >> undesirable meaning of "filth." ("Soil" and "filth" are also related, >> but the connection does not come to mind as readily.) > >>Because of its greater specificity, "soil" became a required technical > > term. > >>Idiomatically, one may live "close to the soil," but not to the "dirt." > >Consider, though, that one can find T-shirts and such in gardening >catalogs emblazoned with the statement "Plays in the dirt". I don't >think this is an ironic usage--gardeners don't seem to be an ironic lot >in my experience, speaking generally--though it may be a >(semi-?)conscious co-opting of a negative term to express something >positive (in this case, that gardening is fun). > And "dirt" used to be a lot *more* negative; even the "filth" sense is a narrowing/amelioration from the original drecative meaning. (See OED, sense 1.) Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:06:23 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:23 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" [but WOT-WG] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the day, I used to have as a colleague one "Dave." He and I got along quite well. Given that this was the mid-'Fifties and that Dave was white guy in his sixties, whereas I was a black kid in his teens, socially, he was a far-left-wing liberal. When one of our bosses angered him, he turned to the Bible for sustenance, using the Old-testament bit about "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" as the basis of his fantasies of avenging himself against the offending superior. Finally, one day, as Dave began one his rants - "You know what the Bible says, etc." - I said to him, "Dave, the Bible also says, "Vengeance is *mine*, sayeth the Lord. *I* shall repay." Dave was stunned, looking at me as though I had lost my mind. Finally, he was able to blurt out, "But, but, that's in the NEW Testament!" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that belief in the New Testament was one of the things that made Christians Christians, whatever their denomination. FTR, I'm a no-longer-practicing, Jesuit-educated adherent of The One True Faith, i.e. Catholicism. (Lest anyone misunderstand, I use the phrase, "The One True Faith," facetiously. It is/was? a Jesuitic cliche.) I converted as a child as soon as I became aware of the fact that one can hear Mass in as few as fifteen minutes, one day a week as opposed to the Protestant regimen of five hours of Sunday services and four more hours during the rest of the week. And we weren't even Baptists, just Methodists. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >loveth him chasteneth him betimes." Note that, as so often is the >case, personal selectivity and interpretation matter a great deal. >McConnell could have interpreted the verse as simply urging >punishment and discipline, without being specific as to the manner >of the punishment. He could also have emphasized the New Testament >teachings of Jesus, which typically mitigate the severity of the Old >Testament teachings. An example would be "He that is without sin >among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7) That >McConnell chose instead to advocate beating the children in his care >was the result of his own choices, not just a neutral reading of the >Bible. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Arnold M. Zwicky >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:27 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: adjective "Christian" > > >from the NYT, 3/10/05, p. A22, "Favor the Rod, Get the Ax" (with >subhead: "College Expels Education Student Who Advocated Corporal >Punishment"), by Patrick D. Healy: > >The profanity transported him [Scott McConnell, the education student >in question] back to his own days at Robert E. Lee Elementary School in >Oklahoma in the 1980's, when there was a swift solution for wiseacres: >The paddle. > >"It was a footlong piece of wood, and hung on every classroom wall like >a symbol, a strong Christian symbol," said Mr. McConnell, who is 26. >----- > >i'm struggling to see how a paddle used for punishment serves as a >Christian symbol. what's the interpretation of "Christian" here? > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:10:32 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:10:32 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Beautifully put, John. As the Fire Sigb Theater used to say, "Hear! >Hear! There! There!" -Wilson > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >keeping kosher. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Laurence Horn >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" > > >> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." > >Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... > >L From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:20:09 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:20:09 -0500 Subject: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You dodged a bullet on that one, Jon! -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Then there's the mysterious Planet Mongo and its villainous ruler, >Ming the Merciless, big deals in Flash Gordon serials of the '30s. > >A personal note. I used to wonder how Mungo Park got such a cool >name. In high school I was tempted to tell people to "call me >Mungo." Never did though. > >JL > >Your Name wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Your Name >Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Larry mentioned Mungojerrie from T.S. Eliot's "Old Possum's Book of >Practical Cats", and Mr Gray mentioned the British pop-band but I'm >fairly sure that Eliot lifted the cat's name from a certain Mungo >Park (1771 - 1806), a Scotsman famous (well in Scotland anyway) for >his African explorations. How that all translates to the discussion >of the word "mungo" itself I don't know, but thought I should >mention the only "Mungo" I am aware of that did not record a cheesy >70s pop hit. > >Carrie Lowery >jimsmuse at comcast.net > >-------------- Original message -------------- > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: Mystery of "mungo" (from Van Lingle Mungo?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>I think this may answer the question. If the term is "mungo," and if it's >> >>>from the 1930s, and if it's from Brooklyn, all signs point to a >> >>>spread from the >> >>>Brooklyn Dodger pitcher Van Lingle Mungo. Was he known for >>throwing garbage >> >>>pitches? >> >>>... >> >>He started out as a fastball pitcher, but evidently threw out his arm >> >>and tried (unsuccessfully) to come back as a junkballer. See >> >>http://www.thedeadballera.com/BadBoneMungo.html >> >> >> >>larry >> > >> >And then there's the one-hit wonder of the ca. late '60's-early >> >'70's, Mungo Jerry. >> > >> >-Wilson Gray >> >> and wasn't that name borrowed from the eponymous feline ("I might > > mention Mungojerrie/I might mention Griddlebone") from T. S. Eliot > > "Old Possum's Book of Cats" (who later made it onto the Broadway > > stage)? > > > > larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 14 20:42:36 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:42:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I think the "meaning" is the same; it's just being used by a #^!%@*& > >Shifts in meaning encouraged by the usage of #^!%@*&s have not been >adequately studied, IMO. > >JL >David Bergdahl wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bergdahl >Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Like a cross?? > >On a related topic: it seems that "Christian" as a label among some >Pentecostals has a meaning something like "observant" among Orthodox >Jews--some so-called Christians are not observant enough in their eyes and >don't merit the label. So it can be confusing when someone is derided as >"not a Christian" when you know the person is a church-going Methodist! Not if you were schooled by the Jesuits during the 'Fifties. The world was divided into two kinds of people, "Christians" and "non-Catholics." And, as I've noted elsewhere, I used to be a church-going Methodist myself, by coincidence. -Wilson Gray >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 14 21:03:06 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:03:06 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You guys think this is something. Haven't you had any discussions lately about who's a "real linguist"? dInIs >At 2:22 PM -0500 3/14/05, Baker, John wrote: >> McConnell probably takes the position that if it's in the >>Bible, it's Christian. I don't know how guys like that justify not >>keeping kosher. >> > >Or not getting circumcised, or wearing wool with linen, or ruling out >slavery,... > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >>Of Laurence Horn >>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:16 PM >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: adjective "Christian" >> >>> The reference is to Proverbs 13:24, which in the King James >>>Version reads "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that >>>loveth him chasteneth him betimes." >> >>Well, if the paddle had been termed a *Judeo-*Christian symbol... >> >>L -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Mar 14 21:33:36 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:33:36 -0500 Subject: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: Who wrote: "Spare the rod and spoil the child," Solomon said, in accents mild. "Be he boy or be he maid, Beat 'em & wallop 'em," Solomon said. ....? Maybe Chesterton or Belloc? AM From kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG Mon Mar 14 21:53:04 2005 From: kmiller at BIB-ARCH.ORG (Katy Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:53:04 -0500 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: <200503141507606.SM03624@psmtp.com> Message-ID: OH, these posts have brought back some awful, painful memories. Absolutely no way on God's green earth can those things be called Christian. I am (well my buttocks are) all too familiar with that "footlong piece of wood [that] hung on every classroom wall like a symbol...." of sadism. And it wasn't a foot long either, that's way too short to inflict the kind of damage that's intended. Damned baseball coach/American history teacher drilled holes in his, said it made it more aerodynamic. It had to be two feet long. We called 'em "swats." And almost never as a verb, just a noun. "You're gonna get swats" or "How many swats you get for that?" I don't remember any specific word for the paddle itself. Katy Oh and ps. This was in HIGH SCHOOL. Seminole, TX circa 1986. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 14 22:51:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:51:22 -0800 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: OED has "paddywhack," as "a severe beating, a violent blow" from an English dial. source as recent as 1898. "Paddywhack" was another of my grandmother's words, from NYC about 1895 or a little later. It must be significantly older than that in American use. As I heard it, it was a punitive swat with the hand on a child's rear end, certainly not a "severe beating" or "violent blow." And certainly its use was at least influenced by "paddle," if not descended directly from (unattested?) "paddle whack." OED also instances the song "This Old Man" from the 1920s. Neither grandparent was familiar with this when I brought it home from school about 1958. JL Katy Miller wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Katy Miller Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OH, these posts have brought back some awful, painful memories. Absolutely no way on God's green earth can those things be called Christian. I am (well my buttocks are) all too familiar with that "footlong piece of wood [that] hung on every classroom wall like a symbol...." of sadism. And it wasn't a foot long either, that's way too short to inflict the kind of damage that's intended. Damned baseball coach/American history teacher drilled holes in his, said it made it more aerodynamic. It had to be two feet long. We called 'em "swats." And almost never as a verb, just a noun. "You're gonna get swats" or "How many swats you get for that?" I don't remember any specific word for the paddle itself. Katy Oh and ps. This was in HIGH SCHOOL. Seminole, TX circa 1986. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 12/7/2004 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From davemarc at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 14 21:23:14 2005 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:23:14 -0500 Subject: New MSM Definition Message-ID: I saw "MSM" on the Web lately but had trouble figuring it out. Duh: Mainstream Media. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MSM&r=f Example: http://www.wonkette.com/politics/media/starr-report-partisan-cartoon-journo- zings-prez-035902.php David From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 14 23:37:02 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:37:02 -0600 Subject: Swats was RE: adjective "Christian" Message-ID: > I don't remember >any specific word for the paddle itself. Our Study Hall monitor called his "the board of education." In the movie Dazed and Confused, a paddle used for purposes of hazing (and wielded by Ben Affleck, in an early role -- a great movie) is labled "FAH Q". From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Mar 14 23:52:48 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:52:48 -0500 Subject: cross amputation Message-ID: An entry in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 5.3-4; c. 1989) provides the form _cross-amputation_. The e.q. (earliest quote) is 1984. However, since then I've found the following: An Omdurman court found Al-Wathig Sabah Al-Khair guilty of three counts of armed robbery, punishable according to Islamic law by death, crucifixion, or cross amputation of hands and feet. "Thief to be executed then crucified," _Daily Gleaner_ [Kingston, Jamaica] (NewspaperArchive.com), June 15, 1984, p 9 Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 14, 2005 at 10:40 AM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: cross amputation >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >from the NYT Week in Review, 3/13/05, "Shariah's Reach", p. 4: > >Iran. 2002. At least three were reported sentenced to death by >stoning. Amnesty International recorded 9 amputations as punishments, >including one cross amputation (for example, a right hand and left >foot). > >not in OED Online or our archives. about 1,400 Google web hits, a >number of them with "cross amputation" in quotation marks, indicating >that the writer didn't expect readers to be familiar with the term. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From douglas at NB.NET Mon Mar 14 23:57:57 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:57:57 -0500 Subject: Antedating of spiggoty/spigotty (1900) In-Reply-To: <20050314105256.P72941@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: >2. But I always took "No spikka [di] English" as an Italian caricature, not >a Spanish one. ISTM that epenthetic final vowels are a marker of >stage/caricature Italian accents, and prothetic initial ones of Spanish >ones; "spikka" goes with Italian at both ends. (Initial [sp-] is perfectly >acceptable in Italian, but in Spanish it becomes [Esp-].) Can we resolve the >apparent contradiction? I don't take the expression as anything other than English. The usual full expression, I suppose would be "[I] speak [the] English" (taxi driver or merchant trying to do business, etc.) or "I don't speak [the] English" (maybe sometimes "No speak [the] English") (non-English-speaker responding to question or request in English). No doubt there was a wide range of pronunciations, from perfect US-style English to utter silence or pure Spanish from those who knew no English at all. What would be memorable to the new arrivals would be the recognizable but accented pronunciations in the middle of the spectrum. Stereotypes aside, I don't know what percentage of Puerto Ricans would have had difficulty with initial /sp/ or the /kd/ in "speak de". But it looks to me like the overall impression was that the locals said "spickety" or "spiggety" or so a lot. Maybe for every local who said "No speaka de English" there were ten who said "I don' speak English" ... but the unremarkable latter version would be ignored in deriving the slang epithet, I think. Any need for a vowel before /sp/ may have been fulfilled by preceding "I" etc. in many cases too. This is just my speculation and I don't claim any relevant expertise. -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 15 01:22:02 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:22:02 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: <20050314193655.6685.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >on since at least 1997. I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS entry for _the joint_. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 01:27:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 17:27:45 -0800 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Jesse, I hate it when you cite my own works against me. But I proactively wrote "at least." JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: Bomb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >on since at least 1997. I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS entry for _the joint_. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 15 02:22:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:22:37 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the '50's - unfortunately, I can't find a single exact date for him - there was Robert P. "H-Bomb" Ferguson, known to DJ's as "The Bomb." IMO, the "bomb" referenced in today's slang is likewise the H-bomb. Note that I'm *not* suggesting any connection whatsoever between the contemporary bomb and H-Bomb Ferguson. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Bomb >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jesse, I hate it when you cite my own works against me. But I >proactively wrote "at least." > >JL > >Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >Subject: Re: Bomb >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 11:36:55AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> Anything truly splendid is currently designated"da [i.e., >>'the'] bomb" by rap-happy American youth. This has been going >>on since at least 1997. > >I can't remember when we discussed this, but the earliest example >I'm aware of of _the bomb_ is from the spoken-word introduction >to the 1975 Parliament song "P. Funk (Wants to Get Funked Up)". >There's an example from Greg Tate in 1983 hidden in the HDAS >entry for _the joint_. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Mar 15 02:32:52 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:32:52 -0600 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as "oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? Gerald Cohen From stalker at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 15 04:14:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:14:42 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: <6F58D6CB.34B94059.0015B172@aol.com> Message-ID: My wife watches some of the redcorating TV shows, I think in hopes of altering our house so that it is saleable. Whatever, and at any rate, she pointed out a change out from to , as in "change out the linens (instead of change the linens); or change out the window treatments (yech) (instead of change the window treatments)". I railed and ranted about interior decorator speak, and it not being legitimate mainstrem language. Howsomeever and notwithstanding, I have noticed that I'm hearning where I would expect to hear a simple . Unfortunately for my career, I can't provide eamples. I've not been a careful linguist. However, my question is, is anyone hearing where they would expect ? JCS From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 04:36:08 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:36:08 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have any authoritative data, but I've been hearing this since ca. 1990 applied to computer (PC) components and the like. Google Groups shows it from ca. 1986. I think "change out" usually means "remove and replace" rather than "alter", while "change" could mean either. So altering your hard drive (e.g.) by changing the jumpers (but leaving the drive in place) would not be "changing out" the drive, while taking out the drive and putting in a new one instead would be "changing out" the drive ... I think. I don't know exactly how the decorators use this. I would assume that a window treatment could be changed in some ways without removing anything (say by adding some frill or other); I would guess that this alteration wouldn't be called "changing out". Sometimes I've heard "swap out" used like "change out" in this sense. Just my casual impression. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 05:49:19 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:49:19 EST Subject: "Winning is the best deodorant" (1996) Message-ID: WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Nets stagger in, then_ (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/289778p-248110c.html) New York Daily News, NY - 20 hour ... of his locker room before playing Orlando. "The best deodorant, the all-time best soap, is winning.". If that is the case, the Nets ... ... ... ... Winning is the best deodorant? I saw the above on page 50, col. 1, of the Daily News. Jason Kidd of the Nets has been using this line for a few years. Maybe it's in a "Right Guard" commercial? ... Did John Madden coin it? ... I don't have FACTIVA handy. ... It's similar in sound to "sunchine/sunlight is the best disinfectant," that I'd discussed before. ... I've heard about the "sweet smell of success," and I'm sure victory tastes good, but does it really smell good? Os anyone looking to bottle Triple Crown Horse Sweat? ... One down, another 1,000 more for the sports cliche guy, and what do I win? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Journal Inquirer _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2r/EOl72MC5yXaDEy3TuO9veNJ6I2XHDGkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, January 25, 2003 _Manchester,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:manchester+winning+and+best+deodorant) _Connecticut_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:connecticut+winning+and+best+deodorant) ...honors at 7. sports "WINNING is the BEST DEODORANT." 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John Madden's football adage applied to the Hillsborough Republican Executive Committee's elections Tuesday night. ... www.sptimes.com/2004/12/09/ Columns/Hillsborough_GOP_has_.shtml - 29k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:QjWQC0Fz8t0J:www.sptimes.com/2004/12/09/Columns/Hillsborough_GOP_has_.shtml+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en& ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sptimes.com/2004/12/09/Columns/Hillsborough_GOP_has_.shtml) ... _Legal Affairs - Count Me Out, Coach_ (http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/November-December-2003/scene_barcott_novdec03.html) ... ?[NFL broadcaster] John Madden once said, ?Winning is the best deodorant,? ? Thompson noted, ?and, unfortunately, it?s true. ... www.legalaffairs.org/issues/ November-December-2003/scene_barcott_novdec03.html - 22k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:qCP8qE2jNBkJ:www.legalaffairs.o rg/issues/November-December-2003/scene_barcott_novdec03.html+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.legalaffairs.org/issues/November -December-2003/scene_barcott_novdec03.html) ... _Fried Chicken's Hockey Fight Site > hockey-fights.com: Manhunt_ (http://www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=247140&Main=17663 3) ... "Winning is the best deodorant." -- Jason Kidd. Post Extras: Print Post, Vopat#38 captain Reged: 09/04/03 Posts: 828 Loc: Finland, Espoo, ... www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/ showflat.php?Cat=&Number=247140&Main=176633 - 36k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ (http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:-MrFXoQ4V-4J:www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat= &Number=247140&Main=176633+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.hockey-fights.com/forums/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=247140&Main=1766 33) ... _March 09, 2005_ (http://www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january2003/) ... QUOTES OF THE DAY "We have to find a way to get back to playing Nets basketball and get a win out on this trip. Winning is the best deodorant." -- Jason Kidd. ... www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january2003/ - 101k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1jyDgastETIJ:www.slamonline.com/links/archive/january 2003/+"winning+is+the+best+deodorant"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.slamonline.com/links /archive/january2003/) _Seath - 3rd at Pacifc NW Ultra (Iron) Triathlon Championships ..._ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/handle-generic-form/002-9917336-6364062?action=next- page&target=web-search/redirect.html&ws_page=&ws_position=3&ws_type=google_reg ular&url=http://www.teamdobbiaco.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=art icle&sid=83) ... Cycling Quotations. Winning is the best deodorant. 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(GOOGLE GROUPS) _JERRY JONES MUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!!_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys/browse_frm/thread/8f45a5aa35f4c4cf/d74275 e1e25b3e21?q="winning+is+the+best+deodorant"#d74275e1e25b3e21) ... 2) "He may be an asshole, but he's OUR asshole" 3) "Winning is the best deodorant in the world." 4) "There is no such thing as BAD publicity" .... ... _alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.dallas-cowboys) - Jun 7 1996, 8:42 am by Donnie Renfrow - 17 messages - 15 authors ... ... From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 06:03:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:03:56 -0500 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050314232505.0300dac0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: On-line newspaper search shows this "change out" from way back. I don't recall it even from the 1970's myself. Random examples: ---------- _Odessa [TX] American_, 16 Feb. 1958: p. 5: [Improvements in telephone equipment] <> ---------- _Valley Morning Star_ [Harlingen TX], 21 Nov. 1948: "Fair Section", p. 6: <> ---------- _Coshocton [OH] Tribune_, 24 Aug. 1967: p. 3(?): <> ---------- At a glance, it seems like the noun "change-out" may predate the verb "change out". -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 15 06:37:48 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:37:48 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <20050314002106.89570.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" >(ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? I can't find any "goog". I do find "googie" as an alternative (diminutive, I guess) for "goo-goo" = "Filipino" (1899). I read somewhere a speculation that this "goo-goo" might be derived from "gugu" meaning a local plant used like shampoo in the Philippines. I can't recall the datails. An on-line dictionary does show "gugu" = "shampoo" in Kapampangan, = "gugo" in Tagalog. Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. On a lighter note, Safire's column in *1995* [entitled "Goo-goo Eyes"] stated (in response to somebody who recalled "goo-goo" = "Filipino") that the word for Filipinos is "gook", which has nothing whatever to do with "goo-goo". -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 15 07:27:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 02:27:34 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What about "gobble-de-gook"? -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Of course its existence could have influenced the racial sense of "gook" >>(ultimately from "googoo"). Anything on "goog," an intermediate spelling? > >I can't find any "goog". I do find "googie" as an alternative (diminutive, >I guess) for "goo-goo" = "Filipino" (1899). > >I read somewhere a speculation that this "goo-goo" might be derived from >"gugu" meaning a local plant used like shampoo in the Philippines. I can't >recall the datails. An on-line dictionary does show "gugu" = "shampoo" in >Kapampangan, = "gugo" in Tagalog. > >Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to >Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to >political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); >this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy >Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. >Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical >reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items >whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. > >On a lighter note, Safire's column in *1995* [entitled "Goo-goo Eyes"] >stated (in response to somebody who recalled "goo-goo" = "Filipino") that >the word for Filipinos is "gook", which has nothing whatever to do with >"goo-goo". > >-- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 08:34:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 03:34:10 EST Subject: Hammer/Nail;"Knock cover off ball" (pre-1896); "Refs swallowed whistles" (1930s) Message-ID: SOMETIMES YOU'RE THE HAMMER, SOMETIMES YOU'RE THE NAIL ... YOU'RE THE HAMMER--447 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits. ... ... I left this one out of the last post, but I'll include it because William Safire might want to tie it into recent Washington politics. ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) _Delay and Company_ (http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/14/delay.company.tm/) CNN - 13 ho ... Thanks to an unusually close and trusting relationship with his boss, Tom DeLay's chief of ... at getting his way that he became known as "the Hammer," and as he ... _Republicans feel the blows as 'the Hammer' comes in for a ..._ (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/cff12224-942e-11d9-9d6e-00000e2511c8.html) Financial - 29 messages - 18 authors _www.goog_ (http://www.goog) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SPORTS CLICHES ... I'm looking for "sports cliches" for the "Dr. Cliche"...I wonder if the good doctor realizes that I worked ten hours in a room with no air, that I almost passed out again today, and that I have no healthcare. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Sport Story Cliches Get Editor's Ax_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=504279822&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP& TS=1110868948&clientId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 5, 1953. p. D6 (1 page) ... The report listed the 10 most disliked cliches as selected in a poll of Associated press member paper sports editors. Here, in the order of their detestation, they are: ... Mentor, inked pact, pay dirt, circuit clout, gonfalon, roaring back from behind, outclassed but game, clobber, gridders, cage or cagers. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "KNOCK THE COVER OFF THE BALL" ... On page 108 in Dr. Cliche's book is "He Ripped the Cover Off the Ball: Batter Cliches." It's from at least 1896. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Daily Miner _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z8Lm5Wnx+nuKID/6NLMW2jDh79c+auIvfrCqR7ctu8cRXo9KEVIjaw==) Friday, August 29, 1884 _Butte,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:butte+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Montana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:montana+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...no taa. levied for knocking THE COVER OFF THE BALL he will play. Robinson says.....and THE mine owners at mlQlojs Utles COVER town submitted at THE re- cent.. ... _Decatur Daily Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2uV/ZQ+LFcXGdQ6WxA4Us8rQsVdjgMARHkIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, May 25, 1887 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...game and nearly pounded THE COVER OFF THE BALL. THE Bloomingtou players.....cat-fish weighing 171 pounds was taken OFF a trout line at THE river yesterday.. ... _Review _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Z1F8QY91aICKID/6NLMW2gGdIv0OpkmR2Id0TSiFg2RknPLt7TrG1UIF+CsZYmrz) Wednesday, August 05, 1885 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...ones Tbe lleds nearly batted tho COVER OFF THE BALL and kept THE visitors en.....THE Deoatnr barbers. THE game will OFF at THE base BALL park, and promises.. ... _Steubenville Daily Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9OTicI1+LyyKID/6NLMW2rwaMTS4M8l+GOOdOMiyaQEjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Monday, April 06, 1896 _Steubenville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:steubenville+cover+off+the+ball+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+cover+off+the+ball+AND) ...watch tho recruits "knock THE COVER OFF THE BALL" THEy only hope and say in.....biko last rail helped to increase THE BALL players' prejudice against THE.. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- REFS SWALLOWED THEIR WHISTLES ... >From Dr. Cliche, BEST SPORTS CLICHES EVER!, pg. 67: "The Refs Swallowed Their Whistles: Officiating Cliches." This appears to be from at least the 1930s. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Time Out!_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=249341572&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110870500&clientId=658 82) By Chet Smith. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 5, 1936. p. X16 (1 page) : "Hey there--give us a hand--the referee just swallowed his whistle!" ... ... _THE SPORTS X-RAY_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=394810201&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110873271&clien tId=65882) BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 6, 1937. p. A11 (1 page) : Here's good news for local basketball fans. Nope, the officials haven't been ordered to swallow their whistles, but Coach Sam Barry of the Trojans and Coach Caddy Works of the Bruins have instructed the referees and umpires to call only fouls that are flagrant and quite apparently intentional. ... ... _HAWKS BEAT RED WINGS, 4-3; TAKE 2D PLACE; 15,741 WATCH DOUG BENTLEY SCORE 3 GOALS Officials Razzed in Wild 3d Period. That's That! _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=472028092&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD &RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110872690&clientId=65882) EDWARD BURNS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 26, 1943. p. 19 (1 page) : The goal cancellation, made after Meuris apparently had swallowed his whistle, helped the game, for it meant the Hawks had to protect a one goal lead thruout the entire scoreless third period, whereas they'd have had a taming two-goal margin ig Smith's goal had been allowed. ... ... _New Basketball Rules Blamed For Too Much Whistle Blowing; Begovich, Leading Referee and Coach, Says Officials Are Unjustly Accused -- Offers Three Steps for Solving the Problem _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=88611029&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110873024 &clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 3, 1948. p. 18 (1 page): Gray, in viewing a game between Pennsylvania and Illinois two weeks ago, remarked "I thought one of the officials would swallow his whistle. It hardly ever left his mouth." ... From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Tue Mar 15 10:14:53 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:14:53 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo Message-ID: Doug Wilson wrote: >>Note also that in 1899 while the word "goo-goo" was being applied to >>Filipinos the word "goo-goo" was quite conventional in the US referring to >>political reformists (from "Good Government League"or some such thing); >>this home-grown "goo-goo" was used disparagingly, I think by Teddy >>Roosevelt inter alia, and it was used before the Spanish-American War. >>Might this be the origin? Were the Filipino insurgents likened to fanatical >>reformists in the US maybe? It's hard to tell in the wartime news items >>whether "goo-goo" refers to all Filipinos or specifically to the insurgents. A wartime (or insurrection-time) diary (1900-01) published online by the US Army contains the following entries. Note that 'nigger' is used more often then 'gugu', which seems to have entered this solier's vocabulary some time after entering the Philipines. Another entry also contained a colorful turn of phrase for starving a prisoner: > had the fellow on a diet of wind-pudding and dreams for about 24 hours >before he told where the guns were. http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/archival/white/transcript1.asp Combined Arms Research Library Command & General Staff College Fort Leavenworth, Kansas Digital Library Transcription of Karl D. White Diaries > >May 28th:: The boys hiked all day Friday, getting in here about suppertime >but found no niggers. I went to Orani Friday & while there had a little >misunderstanding with Corp. Sturgiss of Co. L. and he had charges >preferred against me. Saturday I hiked out in the morning with a detail & >met a bull train coming down from Orani. After I got back I cleaned up >my gun and then in the P.M. worked at the floor of the addition to the >quarters (planed most of the time, with Jack-plane). That night report >was brought in that a body of about 300 gugu's had been seen near Orani >headed this way & we were warned to look out for them I got on as an >extra guard & spent the night laying behind a rice-paddy. That evening >another detail went to Orani & came back yesterday. Corp. Duncan came >with them (came to Orani Friday) and bought a set of boxing gloves. This >forenoon I went up before Lieut. Schaeffer & got a little (Fuedslar) >blind. Capt. Griffiths is trying to clear me but Schaeffer is bull-headed. >This A M morning the guard was ordered to shoot all the dogs in town & >in a few couple of hours there were forty of them ready to haul off. > > Boxing has been the order of the day today. Just after dinner we had a >little "go" between a couple of hombres? Duncan says he saw Jess & that >he is pretty thin & in bad shape. He let him have a couple of dollars on >my account. He (Duncan) took his niggers to Lingauyes prison all O.K. > >Aug 9th Was on guard yesterday and last night. No. one post. During the >night two nigger prisoners escaped. Yesterday Capt Eckers with a >detachment from here and Lieut Crawford with a detachment from Hermosa >were each out scouring around about three miles east of here. Lieut >Crawford and his party found a gang of armed gugus, killed four or five >(including a captain, captured two and four rifles a pistol and a saber. >Today Lewis and Pride, on duty at the gravel pit were fired on while >busy cooking their dinner. The gugus were on three sides of them and they >were nearly two miles from the rest of the road gang so took to their >heels and went for the rest of the guard. The niggers chased them till >they met the rest of the guard coming to their aid (they had heard the >fireing) and then it was white's chase niggers but they all got away. Both >Mauser and Remington cartridges were picked up where the niggers had >b(een) concealed when they fi opened fire. The boys their dinner and >their havesacks, canteens, ponchos. This was a jubilee day with the >niggers. They finished up the road work and were given a "big dinner" >of American grub: Bacon, salmon, hardtack bread etc. There was a big gang >of them turned out and the band went above to keep things lively. They >came in tonight with the band playing and everybody happy and yelling at >his best. Co H. was down here today to play our team a game of base >ball. We sent them home beat but it was a close game: score 13 to 12. > >Jan 31st- [1901] Was on O.G.F. on the 29th We got out the big wagon and >"policed up" the streets. Yesterday I was in Orani and today am on Guard. >Eleven gugus surrendered their arms and took the oath of allegiance >here at Samal Monday night and two came in here with their guns & >surrendered Tuesday night. Several have gone from around here and >surrendered to the 41st because they were afraid to surrender to the 32nd. >We got states mail Tuesday. > Michael McKernan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 15 10:46:46 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 05:46:46 EST Subject: Pizza: a slice of heaven (2005); Sometimes the bear eats you Message-ID: SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU (continued) ... I should remind everyone looking at the hammer/nail, windshield/bug, dog/hydrant, bird/statue thread that I'd posted "sometimes you eat/hunt the bear, and sometimes the bear eats/hunts you" (1904). I re-checked a little and found this. ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Other 2 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325785442&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110877818&cl ientId=65882) Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 16, 1897. p. 6 (1 page) : Bear hunting is fine sport--so long as you hunt the bear. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- PIZZA: A SLICE OF HEAVEN THE ULTIMATE GUIDE AND COMPANION by Ed Levine with special guest deliveries from Nora Ephron, Mario Batali, Calvin Trillin and many others New York: Universe Publishing 368 pages, paperback, $24.95 2005 ... ... I bought this book a few days ago at the Barnes & Noble on 8th Street and 6th Avenue, then walked to 28 Carmine Street to sample the new pizza restaurant there. The buffalo mozzarrella pizza was very good. ... On the restaurant wall was the story of the "Margherita" pizza. I looked at the menu for some time, memorizing it, and then stared at the wall for some time. "It's true," the waiter told me, happy to share his knowledge with someone new at all this. ... And then I thought, maybe I'll tell him, look, my name is Barry Popik, and I'm looking at this because...I helped put "Margherita" pizza in the Oxford English Dictionary.. ... Why wasn't I asked to contribute to Ed Levine's book? Yes, I'm Barry Popik, and I solved the "hot dog," and maybe in a million years I'll earn a single penny, but I'm sure Ed Levine could've used some pizza history... ... Lots of people are here--Eric Asimov, Sam Sifton, John T. Edge, Roy Blount Jr., Jeffrey Steingarten--and it's an entertaining pizza trip around the U.S. "Pizza Margherita" was invented in 1889 again, so I'll re-post this piece here: ;;; Queen Margaret at Naples. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jul 25, 1880. p. 2 (1 page) _Queen Margaret at Naples._ >From the Geneva Gazette. ... Queen Margaret is in Naples at the palace of Capediamonte, and a story is related of her which explains the secret of her popularity among the people. A favorite eatable with the Neapolitans is the pizza, a sort of cake beaten flat in a round form, and seasoned with carious condiments. The Queen sent for a pizzaimole, who is famous for his skill in making these cakes, as she said "she wanted to eat likethe poor people." The man went to the palace, was received, and having shown a list of thirty-five varieties of pizza, was sent to the royal kitchen to make the kind which the Queen had selected. He made eight, which were the ideals of their kind, and the little Prince and his mother found them excellent, but to eat as the poor people in Naples eat--that is often not all, and is more than could be expected. But she has visited the poor quarter of Naples, and sympathizes with the misery she sees there. ... Pg. 58: An "American Pizza Timeline" is here, but it's just when certain pizza places opened. ... Pg. 82: Manhattan Pizza. The section is already dated, as I proved that evening! ... Pg. 140: Pizza a la Grandma. An interesting chapter on "granfma' pizza" origins. Pg. 143's "where to buy grandma pizza" is "an admittedly incomplete list." The place I first had it--Maffei pizza, on 6th Avenue, near the Barnes & Noble and Bed, Bath & Beyond just below 23rd Street, is not listed. ... Pg. 164: New Haven Pizza. Who cares? They make pizza there? ... Pg. 216: Chicago and Midwestern Pizza. No discussion of the Chicago origin of "stuffed pizza"? None?? ... Pg. 260: Hawaii Pizza. No discussion of the origin of "Hawaiian pizza" (pineapple and ham, and it might come from New York)? ... Pg. 277: Frozen Pizza. The origins of this are not explained at all. Tombstone? Put that on your tombstone, Ed? Remember that line? ... Pg. 298: Planet Pizza. This book doesn't care about the planet. FWIW, I recently had great pizza in the Dominican Republic. My ADS-L travel notes are better than this! ... Pg. 359: Glossary. It's very skimpy, containing only these words:Cornicione, DOC (Denominazione di Origine Controllate), DOP (Denominazione di Origine Protetta), Double-zero flour, Fior di Latte, Grandma Pizza, Hole Structure, Margherita, Marinara, Mozzarella di Bufala, Pizza Bianza, Pizzaiolo, San Marzano Tomato, and VPN (Vera Pizza Napoletana). ... And that's the book. The story of "Sicilian" slice pizza is probably here somewhere, but it's not even a chapter. White pizza? Spinach pizza? Broccoli pizza? Pepperoni pizza? Anchovies? Eggplant? Closed pizza (calzone)? Apizza? Pizze? Pizza? Pizza without cheese? Whole wheat pizza? Kosher pizza? Chocolate pizza? Buffalo wings pizza? Four cheese pizza? Pizza knots? "You've tried the rest, now try the best" on pizza boxes? The origin of the pizza guy's "OK" sign? Pizza blister (see Robert Hendrickson's NEW YAWK TAWK)? Why aren't these easily explained and defined and dated? I could have done that for less than a penny. Yeah, I know, but I'm Barry Popik. I do parking tickets. ... Pizza in song? "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie"? Not here. Pizza in the movies? Danny Aiello in DO THE RIGHT THING? Not here. ... The book will surely get glowing reviews. As an assembly of the authors and places you know about already, it's all here. But is that what "the ultimate guide and companion" should be? From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 12:08:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:08:29 -0800 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes indeed, but I can't give you a citation. It's been noticeable for a couple of years at least. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: change > change out ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife watches some of the redcorating TV shows, I think in hopes of altering our house so that it is saleable. Whatever, and at any rate, she pointed out a change out from to , as in "change out the linens (instead of change the linens); or change out the window treatments (yech) (instead of change the window treatments)". I railed and ranted about interior decorator speak, and it not being legitimate mainstrem language. Howsomeever and notwithstanding, I have noticed that I'm hearning where I would expect to hear a simple . Unfortunately for my career, I can't provide eamples. I've not been a careful linguist. However, my question is, is anyone hearing where they would expect ? JCS --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Mar 15 13:40:05 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:40:05 -0500 Subject: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: My Bavarian father-in-law said "hoopla" when about to spill something--which is similar to the Norwegian "Uf da!" made popular by Minn Public Radio's catalog. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 15 14:08:03 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:08:03 -0500 Subject: Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Damien Hall > In the MIT slang list was: > 'Bomb - When performed on a quiz, excellence; when performed on the > "East Campus Fence", extreme excellence.' > Am I right in thinking that since this list was published (and in > general usage - I've never been even once to MIT), *bomb* has > reversed its slang meaning? To me, at least, in the context of tests > (academic or in the more general sense of 'doing something > challenging'), it now means 'fail'. In my mental lexicon it has > always been a shortening of 'bomb out'. The first two of these have been mentioned in the discussion so far, but AFAICT not in the same post, so here's my intuition: The noun (particularly with the definite article, as 'the bomb') is something that is excellent. The verb is to do badly. The adjective (generally in a construction such as 'It was so bomb') means something was excellent, though i don't use it actively and whether it really means excellent (and the degree of excellence) can be more strongly affected by context than the other two. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 14:13:26 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:13:26 -0800 Subject: change > change out In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Change can mean several things, including replace, but also alter, revise, modify etc. I understand "change-out" to mean take an old, worn item and replace it with a new but otherwise basically identical item, i.e., change out an alternator, 126 first selector switches, a three-way electric light switch, a power pole; no alteration of the receiving environment is needed ...pull the old one out, put the new one in, and voila. This may or may not fit with the use in the home makeover: "makeover" implies, to me, modification, upgrading to something better and upgrading everything in the immediate surroundings while at it. In the Odessa American article, the "126 first selector switches" were changed out but the "inter-toll and toll transmission switches" required modification. --- "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > On-line newspaper search shows this "change out" > from way back. I don't > recall it even from the 1970's myself. Random > examples: > > ---------- > > _Odessa [TX] American_, 16 Feb. 1958: p. 5: > > [Improvements in telephone equipment] > > < required a change-out > of 126 first selector switches and the modification > of all inter-toll and > toll transmission switches.>> > > ---------- > > _Valley Morning Star_ [Harlingen TX], 21 Nov. 1948: > "Fair Section", p. 6: > > < this 69,000 volt circuit > during the change-out of a broken pole by this CP&L > Valley crew.>> > > ---------- > > _Coshocton [OH] Tribune_, 24 Aug. 1967: p. 3(?): > > < three-way electric light > switch that very afternoon.>> > > ---------- > > At a glance, it seems like the noun "change-out" may > predate the verb > "change out". > > -- Doug Wilson > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 15 14:40:45 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:40:45 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on oops-a-daisy at http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as "oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? Gerald Cohen From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:05:13 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:05:13 -0500 Subject: competing deodorants In-Reply-To: <1e1.381364e7.2f67d15f@aol.com> Message-ID: At 12:49 AM -0500 3/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, >... >... Wonder what the relative timeline is between that one and another familiar over-the-counter product. On Mike & Mike, ESPN radio's morning show, one of the hosts, Mike Greenberg, just cited Faye Vincent (former commissioner of baseball) for the adage "Sunlight is the best disinfectant". This was quoted in the context of the upcoming Congressional investigation of steroid use in major league baseball, but I'm sure the line has been around for decades in political contexts. (It's not specifically sports-related the way the deodorant-of-victory one is, and I expect it's a lot older.) Interesting division of labor between deodorants and disinfectants: (google hits) WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT 92 WINNING IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT 0 SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT 4,540 SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DEODORANT 0 larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:07:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:07:06 -0500 Subject: "Winning is the best deodorant" (1996) In-Reply-To: <1e1.381364e7.2f67d15f@aol.com> Message-ID: Oops, sorry; on first reading, I missed the fact that Barry alluded to the "winning" vs. "sunlight" connection as well. Larry At 12:49 AM -0500 3/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT--82 Google hits, >... >... >It's similar in sound to "sunchine/sunlight is the best disinfectant," that >I'd discussed before. >... From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:26:45 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:26:45 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B8F@PHEX01.stradley.com> Message-ID: Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:42:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:42:54 -0800 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: As I recall, some '50s comic books used "uh-oh!" while others preferred "oh-oh!" The good news: OED has "oh-oh!" The bad: From 1944 only. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 15 15:44:51 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:44:51 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: I previously wrote (11/30/2004): I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, 1971 for uh-oh. Why so late? These seem like the kind of terms that one would expect to have been in the language for centuries. Of course, their apparent lateness may be an artifact of a lack of standardized spellings and a tendency not to regard them as words, but I think the latter goes only so far, since there has always been a need to reflect such terms in colloquial dialogue. I can antedate uh-uh and uh-oh. For uh-uh, here's an August 1901 cite from The Atlantic Monthly, available on Making of America (Cornell), referring to a patient who is holding on to a woman's hand: "'Why, Henderson, I'm dashed if I can untangle him.' Carey stooped again. 'Just alive enough to swing to her. Uh-uh!'" A slightly earlier (1901, but referring to earlier events) cite is from Studybaker v. Cofield, 159 Mo. 596, 61 S.W. 246, 249 (Feb. 12, 1901), but the meaning is questionable at best: "Witness was of the opinion that on the day the deed was executed and the day before Boyer could not understand what he was doing. Witness would ask him if he wanted his medicine, and he would answer, 'Uh, uh.' 'Q. You think he was unable to make himself understood at all? A. That is, according to my-- Q. And was unable to understand what people said to him? A. That is the way I took it.'" For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: "The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d 660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:49:34 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:49:34 -0800 Subject: twat Message-ID: Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second ex. to be ambiguous at best. Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this likely to be an error? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 15:50:45 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:50:45 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: <20050315154934.16360.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the > second ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is > this likely to be an error? Robert Browning was a renowned expert on this word. Perhaps his writings will yield some insight. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 15:58:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:58:43 -0800 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually means "uh-oh!" Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I previously wrote (11/30/2004): I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, 1971 for uh-oh. Why so late? These seem like the kind of terms that one would expect to have been in the language for centuries. Of course, their apparent lateness may be an artifact of a lack of standardized spellings and a tendency not to regard them as words, but I think the latter goes only so far, since there has always been a need to reflect such terms in colloquial dialogue. I can antedate uh-uh and uh-oh. For uh-uh, here's an August 1901 cite from The Atlantic Monthly, available on Making of America (Cornell), referring to a patient who is holding on to a woman's hand: "'Why, Henderson, I'm dashed if I can untangle him.' Carey stooped again. 'Just alive enough to swing to her. Uh-uh!'" A slightly earlier (1901, but referring to earlier events) cite is from Studybaker v. Cofield, 159 Mo. 596, 61 S.W. 246, 249 (Feb. 12, 1901), but the meaning is questionable at best: "Witness was of the opinion that on the day the deed was executed and the day before Boyer could not understand what he was doing. Witness would ask him if he wanted his medicine, and he would answer, 'Uh, uh.' 'Q. You think he was unable to make himself understood at all? A. That is, according to my-- Q. And was unable to understand what people said to him? A. That is the way I took it.'" For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: "The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d 660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:27 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Query: Origin of "oops" Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for example, there are 749,000 google hits. Larry At 9:40 AM -0500 3/15/05, Baker, John wrote: > Merriam-Webster takes oops or whoops only back to 1933, so >it doesn't seem to be as old as all that. There are online takes on >oops-a-daisy at >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000224 and >http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ups1.htm. > >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard >Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:33 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" > > >One of my Etymology students today asked me about the origin of "oops." >Supposedly this is a natural exclamation, but are we sure of this? >Are there any articles on the origin of interjections such as >"oops"? And what in the world is going on with "oops-a-daisy"? > >Gerald Cohen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:09:33 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:09:33 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <20050315155843.22209.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, but I won't go there. dInIs >Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >means "uh-oh!" > >Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > >Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? > >Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > >JL > -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Tue Mar 15 16:19:41 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:19:41 +0000 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: <200503151549.j2FFnatw003106@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second > ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this > likely to be an error? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. --Neil Crawford From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 16:31:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:31:15 -0800 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Well, I hope OED hasn't compounded his error - which was of a rather different kind. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: twat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the > second ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is > this likely to be an error? Robert Browning was a renowned expert on this word. Perhaps his writings will yield some insight. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 16:33:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:33:21 -0800 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Not quite what OED has in mind. The 1950 ex. specifically says "buttocks." JL neil wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: neil Subject: Re: twat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." > There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I find the second > ex. to be ambiguous at best. > > Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this > likely to be an error? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. --Neil Crawford --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:38:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:38:15 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:19 PM +0000 3/15/05, neil wrote: >on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." >> There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I >>find the second >> ex. to be ambiguous at best. >> >> Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is this >> likely to be an error? >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com > >A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) >where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. > >--Neil Crawford And when you put that together with the front vs. back regional variation on "cock", you can see where one might run into difficulties... L L From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Tue Mar 15 16:33:16 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:33:16 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We said both "hunh-uh" and "unh-uh" in Minnesota too--more or less interchangeably, though I think (from age-old memory) I said the former more often. Jonathan's "unh-unh" would work for me too. "Uh-uh" wouldn't be a negative at all for me. At 11:09 AM 3/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around >Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any >subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. >If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with >every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I >might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, >but I won't go there. > >dInIs > >>Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >>means "uh-oh!" >> >>Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >>people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >>I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >>Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? >> >>Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >>JL > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, > Asian and African Languages >Wells Hall A-740 >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >Office: (517) 353-0740 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:13:23 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:13:23 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050315112858.01e6fe70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:33 AM -0500 3/15/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >We said both "hunh-uh" and "unh-uh" in Minnesota too--more or less >interchangeably, though I think (from age-old memory) I said the former >more often. Jonathan's "unh-unh" would work for me too. "Uh-uh" wouldn't >be a negative at all for me. One problem here, I think, is in the inadequacy of the transcription system; our orthography is not really geared up for representing lexical tone/stress, nasal vowels, and glottal stops, all of which are involved in distinguishing the affirmative "uh-HUH" from the negative "UHN-unh" (transcriptions somewhat arbitrary, as noted). L > >At 11:09 AM 3/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>You didn't have to go so far; you could have heard us guys around >>Louisville doing the same "hunh-uh." I have no idea if there is any >>subtle (distributional) difference between the two, but I have both. >>If I were not a sociolinguist and deplored introspection on use with >>every fiber of my being (except for folk linguistic analysis), I >>might opine that the "h"-full form is more deliberate or emphatic, >>but I won't go there. >> >>dInIs >> >>>Looks to me that in fuller context,the Atlantic's "uh-uh!" actually >>>means "uh-oh!" >>> >>>Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I heard >>>people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible aspiration where >>>I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >>> >>>Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, like "hit" ? >>> >>>Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >>> >>>JL >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, >> Asian and African Languages >>Wells Hall A-740 >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA >>Office: (517) 353-0740 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:21:23 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:21:23 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) Message-ID: This may well just be coincidental, but (also anecdotally) I have noticed another, well, change going on with *change*, in some people's BrEng at least: *change* > *change up* as in 'I haven't got any Euros at the moment, but I suppose I'll change some money up on the boat' (said just before a trip from England to France on the ferry. Intonation made it clear that this was a phrasal verb *change up* + PP *on the boat*, not simplex *change* + PP *on the boat*; it's actually difficult to find examples that are disambiguated by not being followed by a PP, since it seems that *change up* is for money only, and you have to do that somewhere.) It's a subject of indignation in a way similar to Jim's, at least for my sister, whose boyfriend it is who says this, causing her to rant that there's no reason for the *up* and it should just be *change*. But my casual impression is that I've heard it from others too. I suspect that there are contexts in which *change up* is already part of the 'standard' lexicon (apart from gears, which can be but aren't always changed up), but I can't come up with any. So this just adds to Jim's question. I am hearing *change up* where I would expect *change*. Is there something about *change* that invites its specification by a preposition in general, in the way that Doug indicated for *change out* in particular? That seemed to me a good explanation for *change out* and it would be nice if it could be generalised. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 15 17:44:03 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:44:03 -0500 Subject: Liverpudlian Scouse In-Reply-To: <20050315092947.D534CEDFE3@ws6-1.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: (CC to American Dialect Society mailing list) On Tue, 15 Mar 2005, H J Wilk wrote to ANS-L, the mailing list of the American Name Society: #Interesting article: # #http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/15/international/europe/15liverpool.html?hp # #Howard J. Wilk #Viz Thanks for the pointer. I took especial note of the following sentence: Tracking accents and deconstructing how they change over time, particularly from one region to another, have proved tricky for linguists, because there are so many accents in Britain. "Deconstructing"? (Not to mention the failure of number agreement.) -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 15 19:42:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:42:03 -0800 Subject: inner city Message-ID: OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking usage near the end of ch. 2: "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to Germans." The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the following: 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Mar 15 22:45:30 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:45:30 -0800 Subject: inner city In-Reply-To: <20050315194203.15743.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I guess I don't quite get the point here. Manheim is simply translating the German "Innenstadt," which is the oldest part of Vienna--the district lying within the Ringstrasse, which replaced the former city wall after the latter was torn down. It is roughly at the center of the city--i.e., its innermost district--and thus its designation. Obviously Samarkand had (or has) something similar to pre-Ringstrasse Vienna. Anyway, the Inner City of Vienna does indeed contain most of the buildings that formerly housed the institutions of "Imperial and Royal" power: St. Stephen's Cathedral, the Hofburg (the imperial palace), other palaces and the imperial government buildings. Even today, the district's former status as a seat of imperial power is unmistakable. The Opera and the Burgtheater happen to be on the Inner City side of the Ringstrasse, but the two big museums, the Parliament, the Vienna city hall and the University of Vienna are on the other side--but all these were built after the wall was gone. Besides the imperial government buildings and such, though, the Inner City also contains lots of narrow, winding streets lined with old houses, shops, restaurants, churches, etc. The population of this area is unremarkable now (or was last time I was there), and I don't know anything about its pre-WW2 population, but I gather from the Mein Kampf passage that it must have been heavily Jewish before the war. In any case, I don't see what any of this has to do with the connotations of the expression "inner city" as applied to late-20th century America. Peter --On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:42 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. > regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." > Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. > > Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking > usage near the end of ch. 2: > > "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal > swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to > Germans." > > The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that > > "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most > European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of > the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of > the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." > > The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the > following: > > 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ > (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an > Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were > defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure > [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. > > Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 00:23:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:23:46 -0800 Subject: inner city In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: It has nothing whatever to do with the current connotations.That is exactly the point. OED does not indicate that "Inner City" existed in English as a lexicalized or semi-lexicalized entity before 1968. (I feel fairly confident that a 1967 or even '66 will yet turn up, BTW; there were terrible "inner city" riots in 1967 in the U.S.) The existence of these earlier specific uses of "inner city" - since 1722 - are relevant to the history of the phrase. (I found nothing earlier in EEBO.) Since American "inner cities" are just as much "inner" as Old World "Inner Cities," the consistent approach is to annotate both senses. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: inner city ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess I don't quite get the point here. Manheim is simply translating the German "Innenstadt," which is the oldest part of Vienna--the district lying within the Ringstrasse, which replaced the former city wall after the latter was torn down. It is roughly at the center of the city--i.e., its innermost district--and thus its designation. Obviously Samarkand had (or has) something similar to pre-Ringstrasse Vienna. Anyway, the Inner City of Vienna does indeed contain most of the buildings that formerly housed the institutions of "Imperial and Royal" power: St. Stephen's Cathedral, the Hofburg (the imperial palace), other palaces and the imperial government buildings. Even today, the district's former status as a seat of imperial power is unmistakable. The Opera and the Burgtheater happen to be on the Inner City side of the Ringstrasse, but the two big museums, the Parliament, the Vienna city hall and the University of Vienna are on the other side--but all these were built after the wall was gone. Besides the imperial government buildings and such, though, the Inner City also contains lots of narrow, winding streets lined with old houses, shops, restaurants, churches, etc. The population of this area is unremarkable now (or was last time I was there), and I don't know anything about its pre-WW2 population, but I gather from the Mein Kampf passage that it must have been heavily Jewish before the war. In any case, I don't see what any of this has to do with the connotations of the expression "inner city" as applied to late-20th century America. Peter --On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 11:42 AM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED has "inner city" from 1968 as "the central area of a city, esp. > regarded as having particular problems of overcrowding, poverty, etc." > Perhaps this entry needs some historical clarification. > > Ralph Manheim's 1943 translation of _Mein Kampf_ features this striking > usage near the end of ch. 2: > > "Particularly the Inner City and the districts north of the Danube Canal > swarmed with a people which even outwardly had lost all resemblance to > Germans." > > The 1911 _Britannica_ tells us, however, that > > "The inner city [of Vienna]...is still, unlike the older parts of most > European towns, the most aristocratic quarter, containing the palaces of > the emperor and of many of the nobility, the government offices, many of > the embassies and legations, the opera house and the principal hotels." > > The earliest "inner city" I can find through EEBO and ECCO is the > following: > > 1722 Francois Petis de la Croix _The History of Genghizcan the Great_ > (London: J. Darby, 1722): In this great City [of Samarcand] there was an > Inclosure called the inner City, which had four Gates, but the Walls were > defenceless. The principal Mosque of Samarcand was within this Enclosure > [sic], as also the Palace where the Prince used to reside. > > Other 18th C. exx. refer to ancient Athens and Memphis. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 02:19:57 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:19:57 EST Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) Message-ID: FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock New York: Published by the American Folk-Lore Society G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents 1925 ... A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in advance for my typing. ... ... Pg. 70: When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: Star bright, star bright, First star I've seen tonight, I wish you may, I wish you might, Give me the wish, I wish tonight. ... Pg. 73: A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, He loves me, he loves me not. ... Pg. 107: Monday's child is fair in face,... ... Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, Sneeze on Thursday, something better, Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. ... Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; Cut on Friday, cut for woe; Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. ... "Friday's hair and Sunday's horn You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." ... Monday, health, Tuesday, wealth, Wednesday, the best day of all; Thursday, crosses, Friday, losses, Saturday, no day at all. ... Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. Ah, I hav 'em hot, Ah, I have 'em brown, Ah, I have 'em long, Ah, I have 'em roun', Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', Daibble! ... Pg. 133: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, One flew east and one flew west And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, Some go up and some go down, And some go all around the town. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, All good children go to heaven, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, All bad children are too late. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 All good children go to heaven, All the rest fo below, To keep company with Jumbo, or To keep company with Guiteau. ... Pg. 138: What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. What's your number? 22 Cumber. ... Pg. 139: Nigger in the woodshed, Don't you hear him holler? Take him up to my house And give him half a dollar. ... As I went up the apple tree, All the apples fell on me. Bake a pudding, Bake a pie, You're the one who told the lie. ... Knife and fork, Bottle and cork, That's the way To spell New York. ... A rough shirt And a standing collar Will choke a nigger Till he holler. ... Pg. 140: Hayfoot, strawfoot, Specklefoot, crawfoot, Some flew east, some flew west, Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... Aka baka, soda cracker, Aka baka boo, My grandfather has an old horshoe How many nails did he put in it? (Select a number & count that many.) ... Draw a bucket of water, For my lady's daughter, A gay gold ring and a silver pin, And pray my lady go under. (Miss Jennie go under.) ... Pg. 142: _Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ ... Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ Come put your right hand in, Come put your right hand out, Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, And turn your body about. ... Pg. 151: Once upon a time, When the fogs ate lime, The turkeys chawed tobacco, And the geese drank wine. ... Once upon a time, A fog made a rhyme, Goose chewed Tobacco, And the cat drank wine. ... Once I was a wish bone, Grew within a hen, Now I am a little slave, That is made to wipe your pen. ... Hot corn! Baked pears! Knock a nigger down stairs. ... Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please drop a penny, In the little boy's hat. (Or the Newsboy's hat.) ... Pg. 155: All the cats consulted, What was it about? How to catch a little mouse Running in and out. ... Rain, rain, go away And come again another day, For little Johnny Wants to play. ... Rain come wet me, Sun come dry me, Go 'way Patsy, Don't come nigh me. ... Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake Stole-a half a-dollar cake. ... "Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children alone." Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock New York: Published by the American Folk-Lore Society G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents 1925 ... A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in advance for my typing. ... ... Pg. 70: When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: Star bright, star bright, First star I've seen tonight, I wish you may, I wish you might, Give me the wish, I wish tonight. ... Pg. 73: A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, He loves me, he loves me not. ... Pg. 107: Monday's child is fair in face,... ... Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, Sneeze on Thursday, something better, Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. ... Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; Cut on Friday, cut for woe; Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. ... "Friday's hair and Sunday's horn You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." ... Monday, health, Tuesday, wealth, Wednesday, the best day of all; Thursday, crosses, Friday, losses, Saturday, no day at all. ... Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. Ah, I hav 'em hot, Ah, I have 'em brown, Ah, I have 'em long, Ah, I have 'em roun', Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', Daibble! ... Pg. 133: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, One flew east and one flew west And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. All goof children go to heaven, Some go up and some go down, And some go all around the town. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, All good children go to heaven, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, All bad children are too late. ... 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 All good children go to heaven, All the rest fo below, To keep company with Jumbo, or To keep company with Guiteau. ... Pg. 138: What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. What's your number? 22 Cumber. ... Pg. 139: Nigger in the woodshed, Don't you hear him holler? Take him up to my house And give him half a dollar. ... As I went up the apple tree, All the apples fell on me. Bake a pudding, Bake a pie, You're the one who told the lie. ... Knife and fork, Bottle and cork, That's the way To spell New York. ... A rough shirt And a standing collar Will choke a nigger Till he holler. ... Pg. 140: Hayfoot, strawfoot, Specklefoot, crawfoot, Some flew east, some flew west, Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. ... Aka baka, soda cracker, Aka baka boo, My grandfather has an old horshoe How many nails did he put in it? (Select a number & count that many.) ... Draw a bucket of water, For my lady's daughter, A gay gold ring and a silver pin, And pray my lady go under. (Miss Jennie go under.) ... Pg. 142: _Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ ... Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ Come put your right hand in, Come put your right hand out, Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, And turn your body about. ... Pg. 151: Once upon a time, When the fogs ate lime, The turkeys chawed tobacco, And the geese drank wine. ... Once upon a time, A fog made a rhyme, Goose chewed Tobacco, And the cat drank wine. ... Once I was a wish bone, Grew within a hen, Now I am a little slave, That is made to wipe your pen. ... Hot corn! Baked pears! Knock a nigger down stairs. ... Christmas is coming, Turkeys are fat, Please drop a penny, In the little boy's hat. (Or the Newsboy's hat.) ... Pg. 155: All the cats consulted, What was it about? How to catch a little mouse Running in and out. ... Rain, rain, go away And come again another day, For little Johnny Wants to play. ... Rain come wet me, Sun come dry me, Go 'way Patsy, Don't come nigh me. ... Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake Stole-a half a-dollar cake. ... Take all you gimme. ... A fool for luck, A poor man for children, Eastern shore for hard crabs, And niggers for dogs. ... Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, Lost his wife and couldn't find her. ... Pg. 156: I had a piece of pork, I put it on a fork, And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. ... Tattle tale tit, Your tongue shall be split, And all the girls in our town Shall have a little bit. ... Cry baby cry, Put your finger in your eye And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. ... Pg. 157: Catch a grasshopper, and say, "Spit, spit, tobacco juice, If you don't do it, I'll kill you". If he does not spit, he is killed. ... If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: "Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children will burn." Then it will fly away home. ... Pg. 158: My love for you will never fail, So long as pussy has her tail. ... So long as grass grows round this stump, You are my darling sugar lump. ... (Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) "Leave something for Miss Manners." ... I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, I hope the cat will scratch your face. ... Whistling girls and crowing hens Always come to some bad ends. ... A whistling man and a crowing hen Are not fit for gods or men. ... Girls that whistle and hens that crow, Gather life's pleasure as they go. ... Pg. 159: Needles and pins, needles and pins, When a man marries his trouble begins. ... Tit for tat; If you kill my dog, I;ll kill your cat. ... Multiplication is vexation. Division is bad, The rule of Three doth puzzle me, And Practice drives me mad. ... Whilst we live, we live in clover, When we die, we die all over. ... I had a little fod, his name was Rover, And when he died, he died all over. ... After breakfast, work awhile; After dinner, sit awhile; After supper, walk a mile. ... Pg. 173: Sisters and brothers have I none, But that man's father is my father's son, What relation is that man to me? (My Son.) ... Pg. 174: A house full, a hole full, You can't get a bowl full. (Smoke.) ... Up and down, Never touches sky nor ground. (Pump Handle.) ... Pg.175: Long legs, crooked thighs, Little head and no eyes. (Pair of tongs.) ... Round as a biscuit, As busy as a bee, The prettiest little thing, You ever did see. (A watch.) ... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 02:39:59 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:39:59 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Damn! A brother just can't catch a break nowhere. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >New York: >Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >1925 >... >A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >advance for my typing. >... >... >Pg. 70: >When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >Star bright, star bright, >First star I've seen tonight, >I wish you may, I wish you might, >Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >... >Pg. 73: >A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >He loves me, he loves me not. >... >Pg. 107: >Monday's child is fair in face,... >... >Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >... >Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >... >"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >... >Monday, health, >Tuesday, wealth, >Wednesday, the best day of all; >Thursday, crosses, >Friday, losses, >Saturday, no day at all. >... >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >Ah, I have 'em brown, >Ah, I have 'em long, >Ah, I have 'em roun', >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >Daibble! >... >Pg. 133: >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >One flew east and one flew west >And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >Some go up and some go down, >And some go all around the town. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >All good children go to heaven, >1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >All bad children are too late. >... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >All good children go to heaven, >All the rest fo below, >To keep company with Jumbo, >or >To keep company with Guiteau. >... >Pg. 138: >What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >... >Pg. 139: >Nigger in the woodshed, >Don't you hear him holler? >Take him up to my house >And give him half a dollar. >... >As I went up the apple tree, >All the apples fell on me. >Bake a pudding, >Bake a pie, >You're the one who told the lie. >... >Knife and fork, >Bottle and cork, >That's the way >To spell New York. >... >A rough shirt >And a standing collar >Will choke a nigger >Till he holler. >... >Pg. 140: >Hayfoot, strawfoot, >Specklefoot, crawfoot, >Some flew east, some flew west, >Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >... >Aka baka, soda cracker, >Aka baka boo, >My grandfather has an old horshoe >How many nails did he put in it? >(Select a number & count that many.) >... >Draw a bucket of water, >For my lady's daughter, >A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >And pray my lady go under. >(Miss Jennie go under.) >... >Pg. 142: >_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >... >Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >Come put your right hand in, >Come put your right hand out, >Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >And turn your body about. >... >Pg. 151: >Once upon a time, >When the fogs ate lime, >The turkeys chawed tobacco, >And the geese drank wine. >... >Once upon a time, >A fog made a rhyme, >Goose chewed Tobacco, >And the cat drank wine. >... >Once I was a wish bone, >Grew within a hen, >Now I am a little slave, >That is made to wipe your pen. >... >Hot corn! Baked pears! >Knock a nigger down stairs. >... >Christmas is coming, >Turkeys are fat, >Please drop a penny, >In the little boy's hat. >(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >... >Pg. 155: >All the cats consulted, >What was it about? >How to catch a little mouse >Running in and out. >... >Rain, rain, go away >And come again another day, >For little Johnny >Wants to play. >... >Rain come wet me, >Sun come dry me, >Go 'way Patsy, >Don't come nigh me. >... >Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >... >Take all you gimme. >... >A fool for luck, >A poor man for children, >Eastern shore for hard crabs, >And niggers for dogs. >... >Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >... >Pg. 156: >I had a piece of pork, >I put it on a fork, >And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >... >Tattle tale tit, >Your tongue shall be split, >And all the girls in our town >Shall have a little bit. >... >Cry baby cry, >Put your finger in your eye >And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >... >Pg. 157: >Catch a grasshopper, and say, >"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >If he does not spit, he is killed. >... >If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >Then it will fly away home. >... >Pg. 158: >My love for you will never fail, >So long as pussy has her tail. >... >So long as grass grows round this stump, >You are my darling sugar lump. >... >(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >"Leave something for Miss Manners." >... >I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >I hope the cat will scratch your face. >... >Whistling girls and crowing hens >Always come to some bad ends. >... >A whistling man and a crowing hen >Are not fit for gods or men. >... >Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >Gather life's pleasure as they go. >... >Pg. 159: >Needles and pins, needles and pins, >When a man marries his trouble begins. >... >Tit for tat; >If you kill my dog, >I;ll kill your cat. >... >Multiplication is vexation. >Division is bad, >The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >And Practice drives me mad. >... >Whilst we live, we live in clover, >When we die, we die all over. >... >I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >And when he died, he died all over. >... >After breakfast, work awhile; >After dinner, sit awhile; >After supper, walk a mile. >... >Pg. 173: >Sisters and brothers have I none, >But that man's father is my father's son, >What relation is that man to me? >(My Son.) >... >Pg. 174: >A house full, a hole full, >You can't get a bowl full. >(Smoke.) >... >Up and down, >Never touches sky nor ground. >(Pump Handle.) >... >Pg.175: >Long legs, crooked thighs, >Little head and no eyes. >(Pair of tongs.) >... >Round as a biscuit, >As busy as a bee, >The prettiest little thing, >You ever did see. >(A watch.) >... From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 16 02:53:56 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:53:56 -0500 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather than back. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > At 4:19 PM +0000 3/15/05, neil wrote: >> on 15/3/05 3:49 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>> Subject: twat >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> --> - >>> >>> Besides the usu. meaning, OED lists "twat" as "U.S. dial. The buttocks." >>> There is an unequivocal (wordlist) cite from 1950. However, I >>> find the second >>> ex. to be ambiguous at best. >>> >>> Is anybody familiar with "twat" as a U.S. synonym for backside? Or is >>> this >>> likely to be an error? >>> >>> JL >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> A gay gender twist is recorded in Bruce Rodgers (The Queens' Vernacular) >> where the male anus or rectum is equated with the vagina - twat. >> >> --Neil Crawford > > And when you put that together with the front vs. back regional > variation on "cock", you can see where one might run into > difficulties... > > L > > L > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 16 05:14:43 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:14:43 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >What about "gobble-de-gook"? At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody 'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 05:45:28 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:45:28 EST Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo Message-ID: In a message dated 3/16/2005 12:22:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET writes: >What about "gobble-de-gook"? At a glance this dates only from 1943. Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? In any case, it's not much older than that. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _ Nevada State Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2pcnxPkXaZiZVSFpxsAwP0vO+OQIQYuJoQ==) Sunday, September 26, 1943 _Reno,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+gobbledegook+AND) _Nevada_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+gobbledegook+AND) ...at the sound of his footfall a great GOBBLEDEGOOK would go up and the air.. ... ... (The page clearly shows 1948!) From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 16 05:55:19 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:55:19 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <6d.4132ccc7.2f6921f8@aol.com> Message-ID: >Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? >In any case, it's not much older than that. Right, on closer glance, March 1944, spelled "gobbledygook" usually. The 1943 date was in error. I suppose modeled on "hobbledehoy" maybe. -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 08:14:51 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 03:14:51 EST Subject: "Go with the flow" (1971); "Hit the ball and run like hell" (1965) Message-ID: GO WITH THE FLOW ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Display Ad 28 -- No Title_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=144581812&SrchMode=1&sid=44&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=111095 6393&clientId=65882) The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1971. p. A15 (1 page) : _go with the flow...do the current thing!_ (Hecht Co. ad--ed.) ... ... The ProQuest digitization of the Los Angeles Times was added to! ,,, 1969, baby! Actually, just September and October 1969! Maybe not even that much! ... No "slam dunk." No "point guard." No "granola." ... Not even a "go with the flow." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- "JUST HIT THE BALL AND RUN LIKE HELL" ... Paul Dickson's BASEBALL'S GREATEST QUOTATIONS has a 1988 USA Today citation by Paul Hemphill, giving credit to a Class D manager. ... ... (PROUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _Sports of The Times; Sandy the Magnificent _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=95911511&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VN ame=HNP&TS=1110960475&clientId=65882) By ARTHUR DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 12, 1965. p. 61 (1 page) : "It's great to be back on the beam again," said Maury Wills, the Dodger captain. "We were dreadful during those two games in Minnesota. Maybe we were overconfident, but I do know we were unsettled by the short fences and never did get to play our game--hit the ball and run like hell." ... _Architect of Victory; Richard Robert Luigi Aurelio _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=79434071&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1110960064&clientId=65882) By LAWRENCE VAN GELDER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1969. p. 36 (1 page) : In his spare time, Mr. Aurelio enjoys fishing and a game of baseball, when the opportunity presents itself. "He likes to hit the ball," said Mrs. Aurelio, "and run like hell." ... _Just Hit the Ball and Run Like Hell_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=111727502&SrchMode=1&sid=63&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP &TS=1110959465&clientId=65882) By GILBERT MILLSTEIN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1979. p. BR3 (1 page) : _LONG GONE_ By Paul Hemphill. (...) If I tell you that "Long Gone" is about Class D baseball in Florida in the 1950's, I have told you nothing at all. (...) "Baseball's a simple game. All you got to do is hit the ball and run like hell." ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) _Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MSL63G2EslCKID/6NLMW2pBoZql69NyrXsRAmPjaeem4SF6cHMliVUIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, September 15, 1968 _Hammond,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+hit+the+ball+and+run+like+hell) _Indiana_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+hit+the+ball+and+run+like+hell) ...on Page 3D trying to HIT THE BALL AND RUN LIKE HELL. A thrill? Every day is a.....taking THE BALL on a 60-yard scoring RUN on which be leaped over one player.. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Wed Mar 16 08:21:29 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:21:29 +0800 Subject: four and twenty Message-ID: I'm curious. When did English speakers quit saying things like four and twenty in normal conversation? Did they ever? The reason I'm asking is that this morning I blogged the following: The French say soixante-dix-neuf (sixty-ten-nine) when they want to express the number 79. Germans say neunundsechzig (nine-and-sixty). In an interview with Der Spiegel, a German mathematician proposes that the way numbers are spoken in German be changed to make mental arithmetic easier. He wants Germans to say zwanzigeins (twenty-one) instead of einundzwanzig (one-and-twenty). Come to think of it, backward numbers used to be common in English too. Children still sing the old nursery rhyme: Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye, Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. When the pie was opened the birds began to sing, Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king? Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Mar 16 10:12:57 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:12:57 +0000 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <200503160253.j2G2rwJY024232@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James C Stalker > Subject: Re: twat > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the > buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male > oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down > the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known > to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather > than back. > > JCS > > James C. Stalker > Department of English > Michigan State University oogle - new one on me, but I like it. --Neil Crawford From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Mar 16 11:52:30 2005 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 06:52:30 -0500 Subject: "take a looksy"? In-Reply-To: <200501112043.j0BKhk2A002470@ayrton.acpub.duke.edu> Message-ID: This is new to me. I read "take a looksy" in a caption to an online photo. Google gives c. 3,600 of these and c. 21,500 of "take a look see." I was familiar only with the latter--older?--one. Stephen Goranson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 13:37:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:37:30 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Sylvia Plath seems to have preferred "gobbledygoo," as in her well-known poem "Daddy." This form is quite current in non-S.E. circles along with "gobbledygoop." All vars. also exist with "gobbly..." (Without the Net, we might not know this.) William and Mary Morris long ago reported a letter from a WWI vet who claimed to have heard "gobbledygook" from a fellow soldier in 1918. Maury Maverick did not quite claim to have coined the word. He said he wasn't sure. Evidently he'd known it for a long time. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Maury Maverick is said to have coined/popularized it in 1944. You have 1943? >In any case, it's not much older than that. Right, on closer glance, March 1944, spelled "gobbledygook" usually. The 1943 date was in error. I suppose modeled on "hobbledehoy" maybe. -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 14:33:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:33:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >> than back. >> >> JCS >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English > > Michigan State University > >oogle - new one on me, but I like it. > >--Neil Crawford How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any spoken register of BE. -Wilson Gray From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Wed Mar 16 14:39:00 2005 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:39:00 +0000 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <200503161433.j2GEXWC5018997@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: twat+oogle > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: neil >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: James C Stalker >>> Subject: Re: twat >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --> - >>> >>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>> than back. >>> >>> JCS >>> >>> James C. Stalker >>> Department of English >>> Michigan State University >> >> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >> >> --Neil Crawford > > How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it > pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way > that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once > had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any > spoken register of BE. > > -Wilson Gray 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. --Neil Crawford From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 16 15:09:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:09:40 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Ohgle" is the way I've always heard it and said it. I first heard "oogle" in 1976 from a graduate student from Brooklyn. He was about forty and said that was the only pronunciation he was aware of. He didn't realize that {ogle} was even a word. Reminds me of the MD I met once who didn't know that slanty letters for emphasis were called "italics." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: James C Stalker >> Subject: Re: twat >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) about a male >> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have been known >> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >> than back. >> >> JCS >> >> James C. Stalker >> Department of English > > Michigan State University > >oogle - new one on me, but I like it. > >--Neil Crawford How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any spoken register of BE. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 15:10:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:10:40 -0500 Subject: "Go with the flow" (1971); "Hit the ball and run like hell" (1965) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder whether we can celebrate the birth of a new sports clich?, N. Y. Jets' coach Herman Edwards' carefully enunciated "You play. To win. The game." This was uttered last year, with the exaggerated intonation contour represented above, during the course of a post-game press conference, and since then it's been repeated (with approximations of the same intonation contour) either verbatim or with variations on the same theme (but retaining the contour). Since then, Herm Edwards has evidently written one of those "leadership secrets" books using the line (without my internal punctuation) as its title. Perhaps 30 years from now they'll be trying to track down the origin of the clich?. (None of this should be taken to guarantee that Edwards invented the line or its delivery; for all I know his high school football coach, or third-grade marbles instructor, used to say that to young Herm.) Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 15:19:12 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:19:12 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:39 PM +0000 3/16/05, neil wrote: >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > > > How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any > > spoken register of BE. > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford I've always said "ohgle" for "ogle" too, and was not previously aware of "oogle". Perhaps future generations will assume that "oogling" is a special kind of googling performed when you're checking someone out and don't have a computer on you. larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 16 16:39:12 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:39:12 -0500 Subject: Query: Origin of "oops" Message-ID: Larry Horn: > >Well, that seems pretty convincing, or at least plausible. Speaking >of "oops", does anyone have anything on the first cites of "uh-oh", >the "interjection expressing alarm, foreboding, or dismay", as the >AHD puts it? There's no OED entry for ":uh-oh" at all, which is >pretty remarkable considering its frequency--as a rough index, for >example, there are 749,000 google hits. John Baker: > >I previously wrote (11/30/2004): > >I'm surprised to see that Merriam-Webster has such late dates for >these words: 1889 for uh-huh, circa 1924 for uh-uh, and, implausibly, >1971 for uh-oh. [...] >For uh-oh, I can take it back to 1942, describing events of 1940: >"The witness then testified in substance that she had been gazing in >that direction (towards the west field) since the car began its ascent >of the hill; that she looked back when Mr. Rubart said 'Uh Oh!' and she >then saw the truck." Roushar v. Dixon, 231 Iowa 993, 995, 2 N.W.2d >660, 661 (Mar. 10, 1942). And in that same thread I wrote: ----- Hard to search for "uh-oh" on newspaperarchive or other databases, since poor scanning results in lots of false matches. But I did find a 1930 cite: Van Wert (Ohio) Times Bulletin, August 19, 1930 The Featherheads [comic strip] Uh-oh! This is the title to a strip featuring Mr. Featherhead and his boss: Boss: Mr. Featherhead - have you got all the figures in on that Riggs deal? You want to get along that job, you know... Boss: If we get the contract, my boy... it will be a feather in your cap! A fine thing for you... yes sir! [Mr. Featherhead beams.] Boss: And if we don't get it... you'll probably be fired! Mr. Featherhead: ! I suspect earlier cites can be found in comic strips of the '20s. ----- http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0411E&L=ads-l&P=R2914 --Ben Zimmer From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 16:53:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 11:53:52 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: <20050316024001.55680.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are gone"). Gruesome by inference. At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children alone." > >Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. > >My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. > >JL > >Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >New York: >Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >1925 >.... >A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >advance for my typing. >.... >.... >Pg. 70: >When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >Star bright, star bright, >First star I've seen tonight, >I wish you may, I wish you might, >Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >.... >Pg. 73: >A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >He loves me, he loves me not. >.... >Pg. 107: >Monday's child is fair in face,... >.... >Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >.... >Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >.... >"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >.... >Monday, health, >Tuesday, wealth, >Wednesday, the best day of all; >Thursday, crosses, >Friday, losses, >Saturday, no day at all. >.... >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >Ah, I have 'em brown, >Ah, I have 'em long, >Ah, I have 'em roun', >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >Daibble! >.... >Pg. 133: >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >One flew east and one flew west >And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >All goof children go to heaven, >Some go up and some go down, >And some go all around the town. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >All good children go to heaven, >1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >All bad children are too late. >.... >1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >All good children go to heaven, >All the rest fo below, >To keep company with Jumbo, >or >To keep company with Guiteau. >.... >Pg. 138: >What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >.... >Pg. 139: >Nigger in the woodshed, >Don't you hear him holler? >Take him up to my house >And give him half a dollar. >.... >As I went up the apple tree, >All the apples fell on me. >Bake a pudding, >Bake a pie, >You're the one who told the lie. >.... >Knife and fork, >Bottle and cork, >That's the way >To spell New York. >.... >A rough shirt >And a standing collar >Will choke a nigger >Till he holler. >.... >Pg. 140: >Hayfoot, strawfoot, >Specklefoot, crawfoot, >Some flew east, some flew west, >Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >.... >Aka baka, soda cracker, >Aka baka boo, >My grandfather has an old horshoe >How many nails did he put in it? >(Select a number & count that many.) >.... >Draw a bucket of water, >For my lady's daughter, >A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >And pray my lady go under. >(Miss Jennie go under.) >.... >Pg. 142: >_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >.... >Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >Come put your right hand in, >Come put your right hand out, >Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >And turn your body about. >.... >Pg. 151: >Once upon a time, >When the fogs ate lime, >The turkeys chawed tobacco, >And the geese drank wine. >.... >Once upon a time, >A fog made a rhyme, >Goose chewed Tobacco, >And the cat drank wine. >.... >Once I was a wish bone, >Grew within a hen, >Now I am a little slave, >That is made to wipe your pen. >.... >Hot corn! Baked pears! >Knock a nigger down stairs. >.... >Christmas is coming, >Turkeys are fat, >Please drop a penny, >In the little boy's hat. >(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >.... >Pg. 155: >All the cats consulted, >What was it about? >How to catch a little mouse >Running in and out. >.... >Rain, rain, go away >And come again another day, >For little Johnny >Wants to play. >.... >Rain come wet me, >Sun come dry me, >Go 'way Patsy, >Don't come nigh me. >.... >Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >.... >Take all you gimme. >.... >A fool for luck, >A poor man for children, >Eastern shore for hard crabs, >And niggers for dogs. >.... >Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >.... >Pg. 156: >I had a piece of pork, >I put it on a fork, >And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >.... >Tattle tale tit, >Your tongue shall be split, >And all the girls in our town >Shall have a little bit. >.... >Cry baby cry, >Put your finger in your eye >And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >.... >Pg. 157: >Catch a grasshopper, and say, >"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >If he does not spit, he is killed. >.... >If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >Then it will fly away home. >.... >Pg. 158: >My love for you will never fail, >So long as pussy has her tail. >.... >So long as grass grows round this stump, >You are my darling sugar lump. >.... >(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >"Leave something for Miss Manners." >.... >I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >I hope the cat will scratch your face. >.... >Whistling girls and crowing hens >Always come to some bad ends. >.... >A whistling man and a crowing hen >Are not fit for gods or men. >.... >Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >Gather life's pleasure as they go. >.... >Pg. 159: >Needles and pins, needles and pins, >When a man marries his trouble begins. >.... >Tit for tat; >If you kill my dog, >I;ll kill your cat. >.... >Multiplication is vexation. >Division is bad, >The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >And Practice drives me mad. >.... >Whilst we live, we live in clover, >When we die, we die all over. >.... >I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >And when he died, he died all over. >.... >After breakfast, work awhile; >After dinner, sit awhile; >After supper, walk a mile. >.... >Pg. 173: >Sisters and brothers have I none, >But that man's father is my father's son, >What relation is that man to me? >(My Son.) >.... >Pg. 174: >A house full, a hole full, >You can't get a bowl full. >(Smoke.) >.... >Up and down, >Never touches sky nor ground. >(Pump Handle.) >.... >Pg.175: >Long legs, crooked thighs, >Little head and no eyes. >(Pair of tongs.) >.... >Round as a biscuit, >As busy as a bee, >The prettiest little thing, >You ever did see. >(A watch.) >.... > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 16 17:09:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316115118.03151aa0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 11:53 AM -0500 3/16/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. it was "your children are gone" for us; I always liked to think that they made it out safely, but were now homeless, and Mrs. Ladybug would need to secure new quarters for the family larry >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. >>.... >>Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >>Ah, I hav 'em hot, >>Ah, I have 'em brown, >>Ah, I have 'em long, >>Ah, I have 'em roun', >>Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >>Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >>What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way >>To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. >>(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 19:51:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:51:34 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to be an American. In that case, all bets were off. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>What about "gobble-de-gook"? > >At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our >nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" >in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] > >Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all >restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody >'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. > >-- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 19:58:40 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:58:40 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his goo-goo-googly eyes"? -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: neil >>> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: James C Stalker >>>> Subject: Re: twat >>>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) >>>>about a male >>>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have >>>>been known >>>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>>> than back. >>>> >>>> JCS >>>> >>>> James C. Stalker >>>> Department of English >>>> Michigan State University >>> >>> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >>> >>> --Neil Crawford >> >> How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >> spoken register of BE. >> >> -Wilson Gray > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Mar 16 20:12:04 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:12:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <20050316195859.64644F2000@spf6-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: 'Google/goggle' in its pre-Internet form always struck me as related to the vernacular German gucken 'to peep [at]', which (I always assumed) was in some roundabout way the basis for the name of 'the gookie', a bug-eyed face that Harpo Marx would pull. Erik > Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his > goo-goo-googly eyes"? From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 20:25:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:25:22 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. > >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. > >.... > >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. > >Ah, I hav 'em hot, > >Ah, I have 'em brown, > >Ah, I have 'em long, > >Ah, I have 'em roun', > >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', > >Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. > >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way > >To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. > >(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 16 20:45:10 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 15:45:10 EST Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet Message-ID: The local Metro newspaper has some Irish toasts from _www.stpatricksday.com_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com) . There are many sites of Irish toasts; it seems they all share/steal the same ones. There are no dates or attributions, of course. I'll look for a selected few, by request. ... Is Fred Shapiro considering any? ... ... _http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm_ (http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm) ... _http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html_ (http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html) ... _http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html_ (http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html) ... _http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm_ (http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm) ... _http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html) ... If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough! IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IRISH--419 Google hits ... May the wind at your back always be your own. MAY THE WIND AT YOUR BACK ALWAYS BE YOUR OWN--83 Google hits ... May you be in heaven 1/2 hour before the devil knows you're dead. HEAVEN + HOUR + DEVIL KNOWS + DEAD--9,790 Google hits ... As you slide down the banisters of life may the splinters never point the wrong way. BANISTERS OF LIFE + SPLINTERS--1,180 Google hits ... May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. TROUBLES + GRANDMOTHER'S TEETH--180 Google hits ... In Heaven there is no beer, that is why we drink it here. IN HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER--6,260 Google hits ... I drink to your health when I'm with you, I drink to your health when I'm alone I drink to your health so often, I'm starting to worry about my own. DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--785 Google hits ... I've drunk to your health in the pubs, I've drunk to your health in my home, I've drunk to your health so many times, That I've almost ruined my own. DRUNK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--41 Google hits ... Here's good luck to my wife's husband! GOOD LUCK TO MY WIFE'S HUSBAND--1 Google hit ... Here's to our wives and sweethearts!! May they never meet!! OUR WIVES AND SWEETHEARTS + NEVER MEET--322 Google hits ... May the roof above us never fall in, and may we friends gathered below never fall out. ROOF + FALL IN + NEVER FALL OUT--2,550 Google hits ... May your neighbors respect you, Troubles neglect you, The angels protect you, And Heaven accept you. RESPECT YOU + HEAVEN ACCEPT YOU--1,280 Google hits ... I have known many liked not a few loved only one so this toast's for you. LOVED ONLY ONE + THIS TOAST'S FOR YOU--6 Google hits ... Here's to you, here's to me, the best of friends we'll always be. But if we ever disagree, forget you here's to ME!! HERE'S TO YOU + HERE'S TO ME--522 Google hits ... Ireland - it's the one place on earth Heaven has kissed, with melody, mirth, meadow and mist. IRELAND + MELODY + MIRTH + MEADOW + MIST--541 Google hits ... may you have the hindsight to know where you've been the insight to know where you are and the foresight to know when you're going too far HINDSIGHT + WHERE YOU'VE BEEN + FORESIGHT + TOO FAR--668 Google hits ... my the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use GRASS GROW LONG + ROAD TO HELL--182 Google hits ... my the best day of your past be the worst day of your future BEST DAY OF YOUR PAST + WORST DAY OF YOUR FUTURE--817 Google hits ... May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. LIVE AS LONG AS YOU WANT + AS LONG AS YOU LIVE--672 Google hits ... May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. MAY YOUR HOME + TOO SMALL + FRIENDS--769 Google hits ... May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full moon on a dark night, and the road downhill all the way to your door. WARM WORD ON A COLD--2,180 Google hits From blonde_knight_of_books at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Mar 16 20:55:18 2005 From: blonde_knight_of_books at HOTMAIL.COM (Johnni Wuest) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:55:18 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:05:18 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:05:18 -0500 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As if "Little Red Riding Hood" wasn't scary enough. At 03:25 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the >one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, >was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the >accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, >even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. > >My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of >Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in >February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be >some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird >and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >>gone"). Gruesome by inference. >> >>At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >>> >>>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >>> >>>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>>New York: >>>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>>1925 >>>.... >>>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>>advance for my typing. >>>.... >>>.... >>>Pg. 70: >>>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>>Star bright, star bright, >>>First star I've seen tonight, >>>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>>.... >>>Pg. 73: >>>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>>He loves me, he loves me not. >>>.... >>>Pg. 107: >>>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>>.... >>>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>>.... >>>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>>.... >>>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>>.... >>>Monday, health, >>>Tuesday, wealth, >>>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>>Thursday, crosses, >>>Friday, losses, >>>Saturday, no day at all. >> >.... >> >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. >> >Ah, I hav 'em hot, >> >Ah, I have 'em brown, >> >Ah, I have 'em long, >> >Ah, I have 'em roun', >> >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', >> >Daibble! >>>.... >>>Pg. 133: >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>>All goof children go to heaven, >>>One flew east and one flew west >>>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>>All goof children go to heaven, >>>Some go up and some go down, >>>And some go all around the town. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>>All good children go to heaven, >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>>All bad children are too late. >>>.... >>>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>>All good children go to heaven, >>>All the rest fo below, >>>To keep company with Jumbo, >>>or >>>To keep company with Guiteau. >>>.... >>>Pg. 138: >>>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. >> >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>>.... >>>Pg. 139: >>>Nigger in the woodshed, >>>Don't you hear him holler? >>>Take him up to my house >>>And give him half a dollar. >>>.... >>>As I went up the apple tree, >>>All the apples fell on me. >>>Bake a pudding, >>>Bake a pie, >>>You're the one who told the lie. >>>.... >>>Knife and fork, >>>Bottle and cork, >>>That's the way >> >To spell New York. >>>.... >>>A rough shirt >>>And a standing collar >>>Will choke a nigger >>>Till he holler. >>>.... >>>Pg. 140: >>>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>>Some flew east, some flew west, >>>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>>.... >>>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>>Aka baka boo, >>>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>>How many nails did he put in it? >>>(Select a number & count that many.) >>>.... >>>Draw a bucket of water, >>>For my lady's daughter, >>>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>>And pray my lady go under. >>>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 142: >>>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>>.... >>>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>>Come put your right hand in, >>>Come put your right hand out, >>>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>>And turn your body about. >>>.... >>>Pg. 151: >>>Once upon a time, >>>When the fogs ate lime, >>>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>>And the geese drank wine. >>>.... >>>Once upon a time, >>>A fog made a rhyme, >>>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>>And the cat drank wine. >>>.... >>>Once I was a wish bone, >>>Grew within a hen, >>>Now I am a little slave, >>>That is made to wipe your pen. >>>.... >>>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>>.... >>>Christmas is coming, >>>Turkeys are fat, >>>Please drop a penny, >>>In the little boy's hat. >>>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 155: >>>All the cats consulted, >>>What was it about? >>>How to catch a little mouse >>>Running in and out. >>>.... >>>Rain, rain, go away >>>And come again another day, >>>For little Johnny >>>Wants to play. >>>.... >>>Rain come wet me, >>>Sun come dry me, >>>Go 'way Patsy, >>>Don't come nigh me. >>>.... >>>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>>.... >>>Take all you gimme. >>>.... >>>A fool for luck, >>>A poor man for children, >>>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>>And niggers for dogs. >>>.... >>>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>>.... >>>Pg. 156: >>>I had a piece of pork, >>>I put it on a fork, >>>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>>.... >>>Tattle tale tit, >>>Your tongue shall be split, >>>And all the girls in our town >>>Shall have a little bit. >>>.... >>>Cry baby cry, >>>Put your finger in your eye >>>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>>.... >>>Pg. 157: >>>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>>.... >>>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>>Then it will fly away home. >>>.... >>>Pg. 158: >>>My love for you will never fail, >>>So long as pussy has her tail. >>>.... >>>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>>You are my darling sugar lump. >>>.... >>>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>>.... >>>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>>.... >>>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>>Always come to some bad ends. >>>.... >>>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>>Are not fit for gods or men. >>>.... >>>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>>.... >>>Pg. 159: >>>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>>.... >>>Tit for tat; >>>If you kill my dog, >>>I;ll kill your cat. >>>.... >>>Multiplication is vexation. >>>Division is bad, >>>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>>And Practice drives me mad. >>>.... >>>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>>When we die, we die all over. >>>.... >>>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>>And when he died, he died all over. >>>.... >>>After breakfast, work awhile; >>>After dinner, sit awhile; >>>After supper, walk a mile. >>>.... >>>Pg. 173: >>>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>>But that man's father is my father's son, >>>What relation is that man to me? >>>(My Son.) >>>.... >>>Pg. 174: >>>A house full, a hole full, >>>You can't get a bowl full. >> >(Smoke.) >>>.... >>>Up and down, >>>Never touches sky nor ground. >>>(Pump Handle.) >>>.... >>>Pg.175: >>>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>>Little head and no eyes. >>>(Pair of tongs.) >>>.... >>>Round as a biscuit, >>>As busy as a bee, >>>The prettiest little thing, >>>You ever did see. >>>(A watch.) >>>.... >>> >>> >>>--------------------------------- >>>Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 21:14:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:14:25 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Spoken by a black TV-show guest: He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. -Wilson From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:36:52 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:36:52 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or statistical hypocorrection. 1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social structure. 2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before unstressed syllables. dInIs >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > >-Wilson From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:31:29 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:31:29 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > >-Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Mar 16 21:49:35 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:49:35 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >be an American. In that case, all bets were off. > >-Wilson Gray ~~~~~~~~ Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? AM A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 16 21:47:35 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:47:35 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? Message-ID: An article in "Les Echos," a French-language business journal, claims that in the three years since the introduction of the Euro, no slang words for the unit of currency have appeared. Does anyone know if that's true outside of French? http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20050315/lec1_derniere/4238493.htm The article picked up some possibilities proposed by a paper-only revue known as "Teckel" (the article does not appear on its site ): "Eurouilles" (a play on "rouille" 'rust-colored') or "cuivres" ("coppers") for the 1, 2, and 5 cent pieces. "Roses" in general for "euros," from a supposed (plural?) American pronunciation of "euros" as "youroses." "Ponts" ("bridges") for the paper money, many which have images of generic architecture on them. The 5-euro bill could be the "petit pont" ("small bridge"), the 20-euro note the "grand pont" ("big bridge") or "carne" ("meat," a reference to the approximate 20-euro cost of a meal that includes meat at a restaurant). "Gillette" for the rarely seen 500 euro bill, because "it is quickly transformed into little cuts" ("il est vite transform? en petites coupures"), meaning it is quickly broken or changed for (more useful) smaller denomination bills. "Queue" for the 1000 euro bill, from the pronunciationof "kE," for "kilo Euro," referencing the saying, "win the tail and the ears," which I believe is a bull-fighting reference, or "cherry stems" ("des queues de cerise"), which I believe means "peanuts" or "small amount" or "scraps." There may be a ribald element here, since "queue" is widespread slang for "penis." Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 21:43:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:43:26 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >statistical hypocorrection. > >1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >structure. > >2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >unstressed syllables. > >dInIs > >>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >>-Wilson From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Mar 16 22:01:52 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:01:52 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <200503162155.j2GLt7FS023352@mxe5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. Benjamin Barrett Questioning in Seattle -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! From gorion at GMAIL.COM Wed Mar 16 22:26:39 2005 From: gorion at GMAIL.COM (Orion Montoya) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:26:39 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? In-Reply-To: <4238a99b.06ee3c51.2e23.4c00SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: > that in the three years since the introduction of the Euro, no slang > words for the unit of currency have appeared. Does anyone know if > that's true outside of French? My Milanese biker associates have used both "neuri" and "pleuri" -- "nerves/nuthouses" and, uh, the pleural membrane (with some gender reassignment). A Google search for "5 neuri" and "5 pleuri" show at least some currency, with 19 pleuri and 143 pleuri. Currency! I kill me. O. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 16 22:39:24 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:39:24 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may be a set phrase in this area; I doubt that it is anywhere else. I've also heard "a-dancin' and a-prancin'"--not common elsewhere, I'm sure. At 05:01 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 16 22:58:02 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:58:02 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? > >At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: > >Spoken by a black TV-show guest: > > > >He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. > > > >-Wilson From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Mar 16 23:27:47 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:27:47 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was "He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal context. On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a > clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge > Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has > made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common > street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his > low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge > Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he > decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. > But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to > another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >> >> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:22:14 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:22:14 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:36 PM -0500 3/16/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >unstressed syllables. But fortunately, we'd remember our Wolfram & Schilling-Estes just in time and pre-correct our imminent hypocorrection. Actually, in this case, couldn't we flatlanders do a little 'pocope prep first and come out with "I was a-'memberin..."? Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:26:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:26:40 -0800 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The near global application of "gook" was full-blown by 1945 among overseas service personnel in the Pacific, Africa, and Southern Europe. Basically it meant "native." Since the Vietnam War this broad sense seems to have declined in favor. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to be an American. In that case, all bets were off. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>What about "gobble-de-gook"? > >At a glance this dates only from 1943. I think it may be unrelated to our >nonspecific epithet "gook". [There is a similar word like "gobble-the-goo" >in HDAS, related of course to fellatio, exact connection unclear (to me).] > >Note that "gook" (contrary to popular notions) is historically not at all >restricted to East Asian types: it was applied to just about anybody >'foreign', including WASPish New Zealanders. > >-- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:29:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:29:16 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:49 PM -0500 3/16/05, sagehen wrote: > >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >> >>-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ >Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >AM > I thought they began at Calais ("their" side of the Channel crossing)... Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:39:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:23 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: And these are the lyrics. Spike Jones recorded it with His City Slickers, but Billy Rose and Con Conrad wrote it in 1923. Billy DeBeck's comic strip began in 1919. Who's the most important man this country ever knew?Do you know what politician I have reference to?Well, it isn't Mr. Bryan, and it isn't Mr. Hughes.I've got a hunch that to that bunch I'm going to introduce:(Again you're wrong and to this throng I'm going to Introduce:)Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google bet his horse would win the prize.When the horses ran that day, Spark Plug ran the other way.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google had a wife three times his sizeShe sued Barney for divorceNow he's living with his horseWho's the greatest lover that this country ever knew?And who's the man that Valentino takes his hat off to?No, it isn't Douglas Fairbanks that the ladies rave about.When he arrives, who makes the wives chase all their husbands out? Why, it's Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google is the guy who never buys.Women take him out to dine, then he steals the waiter's dime.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google is the luckiest of guys.If he fell in to the mud, he'd come up with a diamond stud.Barney Google with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Who's the greatest fire chief this country ever saw?Who's the man who loves to hear the blazing buildings roar?Anytime the house is burning, and the flames leap all about,Say, tell me do, who goes, "kerchoo!" and puts the fire out?Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, thought his horse could win the prize.He got odds of ten to eight; Spark Plug came in three days late.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes.Barney Google tried to enter paradise.When Saint Peter saw his face, he said, "Go to the other place".Barney Google, with the goo-goo-goo-ga-ly eyes Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't there an old song about "Barney Google and?/with? his goo-goo-googly eyes"? -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: neil >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: neil >>> Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> on 16/3/05 2:53 am, James C Stalker at stalker at MSU.EDU wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: James C Stalker >>>> Subject: Re: twat >>>> >>> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --> - >>>> >>>> Twat is ambigous in my dialect. It is used for both the vagina and the >>>> buttocks. A formulaic observation from high school (late 50s) >>>>about a male >>>> oogling the rear end of a female, especially if he was following her down >>>> the hall was, "he is on the trail of the twitching twat." I have >>>>been known >>>> to use it still. In general though, "her twat" referred to front rather >>>> than back. >>>> >>>> JCS >>>> >>>> James C. Stalker >>>> Department of English >>>> Michigan State University >>> >>> oogle - new one on me, but I like it. >>> >>> --Neil Crawford >> >> How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >> pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >> that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >> had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >> spoken register of BE. >> >> -Wilson Gray > >'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >--Neil Crawford --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:48:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:48:15 -0800 Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) Message-ID: Living in Target A, "stories" didn't bother me so much as did the evening news, and the sound of air raid sirens being tested once a month. (Ours was atop the building across the street !) I still can't look at footage of nuclear tests. I had a student not long ago who thought who thought H-bomb blasts were aesthetically pleasing. She planned to buy posters for her room. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The "ladybug/ladybird" story, together with the story of the one-legged rooster that wound up making a living as a weathercock, was one of the horrors of my childhood, too. I can still remember the accompanying illustrations (can you believe it?!) well enough that, even now, the memory makes my flesh crawl. My mother told me that her childhood horror story was that of Snow-White and Rose-Red, who were sent to gather strawberries in February. I remember this one, too, But, I knew that there would be some magic that would save the girls, whereas the ladybug/ladybird and the one-legged rooster were just plain bleeped. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Beverly Flanigan >Subject: Re: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For me: "Your house is on fire, your children all gone" (or maybe "are >gone"). Gruesome by inference. > >At 09:40 PM 3/15/2005, you wrote: >>"Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children alone." >> >>Again from my grandmother. Somewhat less gruesome than the Md. version. >> >>My understanding is that it's good luck for a ladybug to land on you. >> >>JL >> >>Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM >>Subject: Folk-Lore from Maryland (1925) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>FOLK-LORE FROM MARYLAND >>collected by Annie Weston Whitney and Caroline Canfield Bullock >>New York: >>Published by the American Folk-Lore Society >>G. E. Stechert and Co., New York, Agents >>1925 >>.... >>A lot of familiar, interesting stuff is here, at a somewhat early date. I >>might do follow-up research in later posts on some of the terms...Sorry in >>advance for my typing. >>.... >>.... >>Pg. 70: >>When you see the first star in the evening, make a wish and say: >>Star bright, star bright, >>First star I've seen tonight, >>I wish you may, I wish you might, >>Give me the wish, I wish tonight. >>.... >>Pg. 73: >>A shorter way to tell fortunes by daisies is, >>He loves me, he loves me not. >>.... >>Pg. 107: >>Monday's child is fair in face,... >>.... >>Sneeze on Monday, sneeze for danger, >>Sneeze on Tuesday, kiss a stranger, >>Sneeze on Wednesday, receive a letter, >>Sneeze on Thursday, something better, >>Sneeze on Friday, expect sorrow, >>Sneeze on Saturday, joy t-morrow (or a beau to-morrow) >>Sneeze on Sunday, your safety seek >>Or the devil will have you the whole of the week. >>.... >>Cut your nails on Monday, cut for news, >>Cut on Tuesday, a pair of new shoes, >>Cut on Wednesday, cut for health; >>Cut on Thursday, cut for wealth; >>Cut on Friday, cut for woe; >>Cut on Saturday, a journey you'll go; >>Cut them on Sunday, you'll cut for evil. >>.... >>"Friday's hair and Sunday's horn >>You'll meet the Black Man on Monday Morn." >>.... >>Monday, health, >>Tuesday, wealth, >>Wednesday, the best day of all; >>Thursday, crosses, >>Friday, losses, >>Saturday, no day at all. > >.... > >Pg. 130: STREET CRIES. The Devil Crab Man. > >Ah, I hav 'em hot, > >Ah, I have 'em brown, > >Ah, I have 'em long, > >Ah, I have 'em roun', > >Dey's nice en fat, dey weighs a poun', > >Daibble! >>.... >>Pg. 133: >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>One flew east and one flew west >>And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7. >>All goof children go to heaven, >>Some go up and some go down, >>And some go all around the town. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7, >>All good children go to heaven, >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, >>All bad children are too late. >>.... >>1-2-3-4-5-6-7 >>All good children go to heaven, >>All the rest fo below, >>To keep company with Jumbo, >>or >>To keep company with Guiteau. >>.... >>Pg. 138: >>What's your name? Pudding-in-tane. >>Where do you loive? Up Red Lane. > >What's your number? 22 Cumber. >>.... >>Pg. 139: >>Nigger in the woodshed, >>Don't you hear him holler? >>Take him up to my house >>And give him half a dollar. >>.... >>As I went up the apple tree, >>All the apples fell on me. >>Bake a pudding, >>Bake a pie, >>You're the one who told the lie. >>.... >>Knife and fork, >>Bottle and cork, >>That's the way > >To spell New York. >>.... >>A rough shirt >>And a standing collar >>Will choke a nigger >>Till he holler. >>.... >>Pg. 140: >>Hayfoot, strawfoot, >>Specklefoot, crawfoot, >>Some flew east, some flew west, >>Some flew over the cuckoo's nest. >>.... >>Aka baka, soda cracker, >>Aka baka boo, >>My grandfather has an old horshoe >>How many nails did he put in it? >>(Select a number & count that many.) >>.... >>Draw a bucket of water, >>For my lady's daughter, >>A gay gold ring and a silver pin, >>And pray my lady go under. >>(Miss Jennie go under.) >>.... >>Pg. 142: >>_Bingo._ (...) _The Farmer stands alone._ >>.... >>Pg. 147: _Ugly mug._ >>Come put your right hand in, >>Come put your right hand out, >>Come give your right hand a shake, shake, shake, >>And turn your body about. >>.... >>Pg. 151: >>Once upon a time, >>When the fogs ate lime, >>The turkeys chawed tobacco, >>And the geese drank wine. >>.... >>Once upon a time, >>A fog made a rhyme, >>Goose chewed Tobacco, >>And the cat drank wine. >>.... >>Once I was a wish bone, >>Grew within a hen, >>Now I am a little slave, >>That is made to wipe your pen. >>.... >>Hot corn! Baked pears! >>Knock a nigger down stairs. >>.... >>Christmas is coming, >>Turkeys are fat, >>Please drop a penny, >>In the little boy's hat. >>(Or the Newsboy's hat.) >>.... >>Pg. 155: >>All the cats consulted, >>What was it about? >>How to catch a little mouse >>Running in and out. >>.... >>Rain, rain, go away >>And come again another day, >>For little Johnny >>Wants to play. >>.... >>Rain come wet me, >>Sun come dry me, >>Go 'way Patsy, >>Don't come nigh me. >>.... >>Jake, Jake, the rattlesnake >>Stole-a half a-dollar cake. >>.... >>Take all you gimme. >>.... >>A fool for luck, >>A poor man for children, >>Eastern shore for hard crabs, >>And niggers for dogs. >>.... >>Ting-a-ling-a-ling the scissors grinder, >>Lost his wife and couldn't find her. >>.... >>Pg. 156: >>I had a piece of pork, >>I put it on a fork, >>And gave it to the curly headed Jew, Jew, Jew. >>.... >>Tattle tale tit, >>Your tongue shall be split, >>And all the girls in our town >>Shall have a little bit. >>.... >>Cry baby cry, >>Put your finger in your eye >>And tell your Mother 'twasn't I. >>.... >>Pg. 157: >>Catch a grasshopper, and say, >>"Spit, spit, tobacco juice, >>If you don't do it, I'll kill you". >>If he does not spit, he is killed. >>.... >>If you see a ladybug, catch it and put it on your finger and say: >>"Lady bug, lady bug, fly away home, >>Your house is on fire, your children will burn." >>Then it will fly away home. >>.... >>Pg. 158: >>My love for you will never fail, >>So long as pussy has her tail. >>.... >>So long as grass grows round this stump, >>You are my darling sugar lump. >>.... >>(Said to a child who affects a very fainty appetite at table.) >>"Leave something for Miss Manners." >>.... >>I beg your pardon, I grant you grace, >>I hope the cat will scratch your face. >>.... >>Whistling girls and crowing hens >>Always come to some bad ends. >>.... >>A whistling man and a crowing hen >>Are not fit for gods or men. >>.... >>Girls that whistle and hens that crow, >>Gather life's pleasure as they go. >>.... >>Pg. 159: >>Needles and pins, needles and pins, >>When a man marries his trouble begins. >>.... >>Tit for tat; >>If you kill my dog, >>I;ll kill your cat. >>.... >>Multiplication is vexation. >>Division is bad, >>The rule of Three doth puzzle me, >>And Practice drives me mad. >>.... >>Whilst we live, we live in clover, >>When we die, we die all over. >>.... >>I had a little fod, his name was Rover, >>And when he died, he died all over. >>.... >>After breakfast, work awhile; >>After dinner, sit awhile; >>After supper, walk a mile. >>.... >>Pg. 173: >>Sisters and brothers have I none, >>But that man's father is my father's son, >>What relation is that man to me? >>(My Son.) >>.... >>Pg. 174: >>A house full, a hole full, >>You can't get a bowl full. > >(Smoke.) >>.... >>Up and down, >>Never touches sky nor ground. >>(Pump Handle.) >>.... >>Pg.175: >>Long legs, crooked thighs, >>Little head and no eyes. >>(Pair of tongs.) >>.... >>Round as a biscuit, >>As busy as a bee, >>The prettiest little thing, >>You ever did see. >>(A watch.) >>.... >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:50:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:50:43 -0800 Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet Message-ID: At least for now, shouldn't that be " ' Irish' toasts " ? JL Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Irish Toasts & the Internet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The local Metro newspaper has some Irish toasts from _www.stpatricksday.com_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com) . There are many sites of Irish toasts; it seems they all share/steal the same ones. There are no dates or attributions, of course. I'll look for a selected few, by request. ... Is Fred Shapiro considering any? ... ... _http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm_ (http://www.irishmillinn.com/toasts1.htm) ... _http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html_ (http://www.najapan.com/brown/IrishToasts.html) ... _http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html_ (http://www.fionasplace.net/AnIrishPatchwork/Irishsayingsandblessings.html) ... _http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm_ (http://www.luquette.org/inspire/irish_blessings.htm) ... _http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html_ (http://www.stpatricksday.com/2002/index-en.html) ... If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough! IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE IRISH--419 Google hits ... May the wind at your back always be your own. MAY THE WIND AT YOUR BACK ALWAYS BE YOUR OWN--83 Google hits ... May you be in heaven 1/2 hour before the devil knows you're dead. HEAVEN + HOUR + DEVIL KNOWS + DEAD--9,790 Google hits ... As you slide down the banisters of life may the splinters never point the wrong way. BANISTERS OF LIFE + SPLINTERS--1,180 Google hits ... May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. TROUBLES + GRANDMOTHER'S TEETH--180 Google hits ... In Heaven there is no beer, that is why we drink it here. IN HEAVEN THERE IS NO BEER--6,260 Google hits ... I drink to your health when I'm with you, I drink to your health when I'm alone I drink to your health so often, I'm starting to worry about my own. DRINK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--785 Google hits ... I've drunk to your health in the pubs, I've drunk to your health in my home, I've drunk to your health so many times, That I've almost ruined my own. DRUNK TO YOUR HEALTH + MY OWN--41 Google hits ... Here's good luck to my wife's husband! GOOD LUCK TO MY WIFE'S HUSBAND--1 Google hit ... Here's to our wives and sweethearts!! May they never meet!! OUR WIVES AND SWEETHEARTS + NEVER MEET--322 Google hits ... May the roof above us never fall in, and may we friends gathered below never fall out. ROOF + FALL IN + NEVER FALL OUT--2,550 Google hits ... May your neighbors respect you, Troubles neglect you, The angels protect you, And Heaven accept you. RESPECT YOU + HEAVEN ACCEPT YOU--1,280 Google hits ... I have known many liked not a few loved only one so this toast's for you. LOVED ONLY ONE + THIS TOAST'S FOR YOU--6 Google hits ... Here's to you, here's to me, the best of friends we'll always be. But if we ever disagree, forget you here's to ME!! HERE'S TO YOU + HERE'S TO ME--522 Google hits ... Ireland - it's the one place on earth Heaven has kissed, with melody, mirth, meadow and mist. IRELAND + MELODY + MIRTH + MEADOW + MIST--541 Google hits ... may you have the hindsight to know where you've been the insight to know where you are and the foresight to know when you're going too far HINDSIGHT + WHERE YOU'VE BEEN + FORESIGHT + TOO FAR--668 Google hits ... my the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use GRASS GROW LONG + ROAD TO HELL--182 Google hits ... my the best day of your past be the worst day of your future BEST DAY OF YOUR PAST + WORST DAY OF YOUR FUTURE--817 Google hits ... May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. LIVE AS LONG AS YOU WANT + AS LONG AS YOU LIVE--672 Google hits ... May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. MAY YOUR HOME + TOO SMALL + FRIENDS--769 Google hits ... May you have warm words on a cold evening, a full moon on a dark night, and the road downhill all the way to your door. WARM WORD ON A COLD--2,180 Google hits --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:54:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:54:36 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: How 'bout this student? He used "thats" as an equivalent for "whose" applied to inanimate objects. Wouldn't stop either. He dropped the class. Of course the fact that it makes perfect sense has no bearing whatever on English usage. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spoken by a black TV-show guest: He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:57:54 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:57:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316164005.0354ed28@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: All before stressed syllables. Ain't no hypocorrection (structural) goin on there. dInIs >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this >morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and >a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! > >At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >>term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >>statistical hypocorrection. >> >>1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >>situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >>nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >>structure. >> >>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>unstressed syllables. >> >>dInIs >> >>>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>>-Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 00:59:42 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:59:42 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a freshman theme. JL Benjamin Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. Benjamin Barrett Questioning in Seattle -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:03:06 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:03:06 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note that all so-called set phrases all obey the stress rule - a-fuedin and a fussin, a fussin and a-fighten, a screamin and a -hollerin, etc, etc. But a-drinkin and a-dancin are good (and not set), but a-fussin and a-arguin (no a-prefixin before vowels) and a-walking and a-peraumblulatin (no a-prexin before weakly stressed syllables) ainp;t worth a crap. dInIs dInIs >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:04:58 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:04:58 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050316173748.0357fe00@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: A-dancin and a-prancin is widespread mongst us a-prefixers. dInIs >It may be a set phrase in this area; I doubt that it is anywhere >else. I've also heard "a-dancin' and a-prancin'"--not common elsewhere, >I'm sure. > >At 05:01 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >>just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. >> >>Benjamin Barrett >>Questioning in Seattle >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >>Beverly Flanigan >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--- >> >>By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >>isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >>Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >>interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >>a-screamin'"--four attestations! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:07:36 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:07:36 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). dInIs >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:08:43 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:08:43 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ya'll flatlander 'pocopers. I done forgot you! dInIs >At 4:36 PM -0500 3/16/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>unstressed syllables. > >But fortunately, we'd remember our Wolfram & Schilling-Estes just in >time and pre-correct our imminent hypocorrection. Actually, in this >case, couldn't we flatlanders do a little 'pocope prep first and come >out with "I was a-'memberin..."? > >Larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:36:11 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:36:11 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). dInIs >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 01:59:01 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:59:01 -0500 Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" In-Reply-To: <200503170136.j2H1aDJX002808@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., used the expression "Heads I win, tails you lose" in _The Professor at the Breakfast-Table_ (1860). Is anyone able to trace earlier usage of this phrase? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 17 02:03:29 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:03:29 -0500 Subject: more on EARWORM Message-ID: I was looking at ear in the OED and found the following. I suspect it has already been mentioned. But I didn't see it. OED: ear-worm, ? = earwig; _fig._ a counsellor .... a1670 Hacket _Abp. Williams II_. 152 There is nothing in the oath to protect such an ear-worm, but he may be approached. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 17 02:10:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:10:29 -0500 Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" Message-ID: There's an 1822 London Times cite over at N'archive. sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 8:59 PM Subject: "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" > Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., used the expression "Heads I win, tails you > lose" in _The Professor at the Breakfast-Table_ (1860). Is anyone able to > trace earlier usage of this phrase? > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:11:03 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:11:03 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8me7jg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: sagehen >Subject: Re: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >> >>-Wilson Gray > ~~~~~~~~ >Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >AM Good one! I've never heard that one before, but, as I've noted elsewhere, I enjoy a well-phrased ethnic or racial slur as well as anybody else. -Wilson > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:26:37 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:26:37 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive without /-s/. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Matthew Gordon >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson From stalker at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 02:38:04 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:38:04 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geez. You assume that everyone knows what oogle means and how to pronounce it, and are you surprised! That?s what I like about language. I would suggest a consult of the HDAS, vol 2, p. 723., where we find ?oogle? with this note: [for the alt. in vowel quality, cf. earlier GONEY and GOONEY] OGLE. The previous comments suggest that there might be a geographic or sociolinguistic distribution, or an intersection of the two. Maybe someone is looking for a dissertation topic? Eric?s suggestion that ?gucken? ?to peep? might be an etymological source is interesting as well. I think I?ll go check out a few Yiddish sites. JCS Johnni Wuest writes: James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 02:53:22 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 20:53:22 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: right, "who is car was it" is ungrammatical but what I'm saying is that he started to say "who's", maybe he had in mind something like "He asked me who's in the car" or something - anyway, he changed the structure of the sentence halfway through. As I type this I realize it sounds far fetched, but I wanted to suggest that someone concerned about impressing a judge is more likely to make their speech more formal (i.e. by undoing a contraction, and notice that 'who's' for 'who + was' is even more informal/vernacular than 'who + is') than to make it more informal. This would seem all the more likely if, as suggested, the speaker is a vernacular-speaking young African American talking to an older African American in a position of authority. In this context I can't understand the social motivation to make his speech more vernacular which is what 'whose > who' seems to result from. Anyway, maybe Wilson has intuitions on this: is possessive 'who' a possible AAVE form (e.g. He the man who car I borrowed)? I realize that's why this example was posted as an example of hypocorrection, but does the form exist? You don't get in AAVE, as far as I know, possessive 'he' instead of 'his'. You have 'they' alternating with 'their' (e.g. That's they problem), but that's probably a result of r-lessness originally. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 8:26 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive without /-s/. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Matthew Gordon >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >context. > > >On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: > >> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that Judge >> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, he >> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> >>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have been >>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>> >>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>> -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 02:58:45 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:58:45 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >so he'd want to avoid them here. > >BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). > >dInIs > >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 17 00:11:04 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:11:04 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... >> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >> -Wilson [Gray] but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them (note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury vapor): ----- ...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... ----- people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the "of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate construction, and fixed things. i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" ("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base "correct(ion)". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 03:18:25 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:18:25 -0500 Subject: Heads I win, tails you lose; Winning is best deodorant Message-ID: HEADS I WIN, TAILS YOU LOSE (ADS-L ARCHIVES) 1835: In relation to the [stock] brokers, we fear it has been "heads I win ? tails you lose" Evening Star, January 17, 1835, p. 2, col. 3 I see in the OED, sense 3b, under Head, noun, citations giving this phrase from 1846 and 1907, both English. Whiting's Early American Proverbs has it from 1814. GAT (EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS) The National Intelligencer and Washington Advertiser, 2 September 1805, pg. 2, col. 3: As to the speculators from the south, they had the advantage in the toss up; they said heads, I win, tails, you lose; they could not lose any thing for they had nothing at stake. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WINNING IS THE BEST DEODORANT (FACTIVA) SPORTS BOMBERS CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO WIN TIME RUNNING OUT IN ANSWER SEARCH Marc Katz DAYTON DAILY NEWS 1,168 words 20 January 1994 Dayton Daily News CITY 1D English (Copyright 1994) SPORTS (...) "When you're winning, you're not worried about anything," Derek Donald said. "When you're winning, you don't look for anything. When you're losing, you look for something. "Winning is the best deodorant. It covers up everything." (FACTIVA) NATIONAL My, how Bucs' fortunes change ERNEST HOOPER 845 words 23 December 1997 St. Petersburg Times 0 SOUTH PINELLAS 1A English (Copyright 1997) Football analyst and former NFL coach John Madden loves to say winning is the best deodorant. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:20:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:20:08 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2005, at 5:07 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive > ;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the > possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps > in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). that was the interpretation i assumed in my response (which has finally gone out, after some hours of mailer woes). arnold From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 03:23:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:23:57 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I was beginning to think I was the only one left who automatically eschews the unnecessary, illogical, and bedamned "of" in those constructions. I'm sure it's ancient, but I only began to notice the "of" within the last 20 years or so. (Yeah, I know....) Yet, to judge from CNN & Fox, this - like "is is" - is now the near-universal rule in speech, not the exception. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... >> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >> >> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >> >> -Wilson [Gray] but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them (note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury vapor): ----- ...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... ----- people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the "of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate construction, and fixed things. i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" ("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base "correct(ion)". arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 03:27:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:27:10 -0800 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Wilson, ever notice how many of Jerry's guests have low-prestige Southern or AAVE accents? Maybe the producers think the NYC Leo Gorcey types are too scary. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >so he'd want to avoid them here. > >BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). > >dInIs > >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," > >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:38:09 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:38:09 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" _by accident_. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >right, "who is car was it" is ungrammatical but what I'm saying is that = >he started to say "who's", maybe he had in mind something like "He asked = >me who's in the car" or something - anyway, he changed the structure of = >the sentence halfway through. As I type this I realize it sounds far = >fetched, but I wanted to suggest that someone concerned about impressing = >a judge is more likely to make their speech more formal (i.e. by undoing = >a contraction, and notice that 'who's' for 'who + was' is even more = >informal/vernacular than 'who + is') than to make it more informal. This = >would seem all the more likely if, as suggested, the speaker is a = >vernacular-speaking young African American talking to an older African = >American in a position of authority. In this context I can't understand = >the social motivation to make his speech more vernacular which is what = >'whose > who' seems to result from. I agree with this, but we're clearly keyboarding past each other. It may help to provide more background. The defendant was trying to explain what happened after he and his girlfriend were stopped by the police for driving a car with illegal plates. He had stolen a pair of dealer plates from his job and covered the DEALER designation with masking tape, so that the cops wouldn't notice. They didn't notice the DEALER, but they did notice the masking tape. Since the car was owned by his now ex-girlfriend and was being driven by her, she was ticketed, her car was impounded, etc. So, she was suing him for the money she lost in fines, impound fees, etc. -Wilson > >Anyway, maybe Wilson has intuitions on this: is possessive 'who' a = >possible AAVE form (e.g. He the man who car I borrowed)? I realize = >that's why this example was posted as an example of hypocorrection, but = >does the form exist? You don't get in AAVE, as far as I know, possessive = >'he' instead of 'his'. You have 'they' alternating with 'their' (e.g. = >That's they problem), but that's probably a result of r-lessness = >originally. On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, bitch?!" a zillion times. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 8:26 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >Not quite. "Who is car was it" is ungrammatical. He said, "He [a >policeman] ax me whose, uh, who car was it." What the speaker did was >to "correct" the standard possessive in /-s/ to the BE possessive >without /-s/. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Matthew Gordon >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >> >>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>context. >> >> >>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >> >>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge > >> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >Judge >>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >he >>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the > >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >>> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to > >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >been >>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>> >>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>> >>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:44:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:44:17 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It makes sense to me. Thanks, arnold, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... > >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson [Gray] > >but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for >something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like >someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them >(note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then >fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't >aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. > >as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an >interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury >vapor): > >----- >...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... >----- > >people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the >"of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. >so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate >construction, and fixed things. > >i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. >whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" >("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, >but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the >tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base >"correct(ion)". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:42:21 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 21:42:21 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: Yeah but that's copula deletion (who < who's) not possessive deletion. What I haven't heard is "The baby who daddy that is called me yesterday" etc. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 9:38 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, bitch?!" a zillion times. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Mar 17 03:48:48 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:48:48 -0500 Subject: Gook (???) (1912) -- Goo-goo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 4:49 PM -0500 3/16/05, sagehen wrote: >> >Thanks, Doug. So, "gook" rather coincides with "wog." In my youth, >>>Aussie friends applied the latter term to anyone who wasn't >>>sufficiently fair-skinned as to merit inclusion into the WASPocracy, >>>yet not so dark-skinned as to be considered a nigger. Hence, "wog" >>>was applied to Southern Europeans of all nationalities, Asians, >>>Indian Indians, etc., unless such a person's speech revealed him to >>>be an American. In that case, all bets were off. >>> >>>-Wilson Gray >> ~~~~~~~~ >>Wasn't the slogan of this point of view "The wogs begin at Dover"? >>AM >> >I thought they began at Calais ("their" side of the Channel crossing)... > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~ You trine 'a be *reasonable*? Think INSULAR, man! AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 03:51:44 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:51:44 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So, I've been vindicated! About thirty years ago, a friend gently chided me wrt my once-unconscious - till he called it to my attention - use of the "is is" construction. ;-) -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I was beginning to think I was the only one left who automatically >eschews the unnecessary, illogical, and bedamned "of" in those >constructions. > >I'm sure it's ancient, but I only began to notice the "of" within >the last 20 years or so. (Yeah, I know....) Yet, to judge from CNN >& Fox, this - like "is is" - is now the near-universal rule in >speech, not the exception. > >JL > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 16, 2005, at 1:36 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection... > >>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>> >>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>> >>> -Wilson [Gray] > >but what wilson reported almost surely wasn't someone aiming for >something less standard than their usual variety. it sounds like >someone starting out in a nonstandard variety that's natural for them >(note the "aks"), shifting towards a more standard variety, and then >fixing things by shifting back to the first variety. the speaker isn't >aiming low (or high), but correcting to stay on course. > >as it happens, i was about to post a somewhat similar example, from an >interviewee on NPR's Morning Edition, 3/8/05 (talking about mercury >vapor): > >----- >...it will break up into so small a... so small of a bead that... >----- > >people with "of" in this degree construction tend to judge the >"of"-less variant as fancy, bookish, old-fashioned, pretentious, etc. >so this guy found himself embarking on the stylistically inappropriate >construction, and fixed things. > >i don't think we have a label for this sort of correction. >whimsically, it might be called "Mama Bear correction" >("ursacorrection" for short). "orthocorrection" (not high, not low, >but (just) right) is a less whimsical possibility, and it keeps up the >tradition of using greek-derived prefixes with the latin-derived base >"correct(ion)". > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Thu Mar 17 03:26:33 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:26:33 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course not; I didn't say there was. At 07:57 PM 3/16/2005 -0500, you wrote: >All before stressed syllables. Ain't no hypocorrection (structural) >goin on there. > >dInIs > > > >>By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >>isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this >>morning. Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >>Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and >>a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! >> >>At 04:36 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>John Baugh has a nice piece on hypocorrection, a now standardized >>>term I think. Remember, however, it may mean structural or >>>statistical hypocorrection. >>> >>>1) statistical - when you use more nonstandard than you or the >>>situation might seem to call for, or when one groups uses more >>>nonstandard than would be expected from its position in social >>>structure. >>> >>>2) structural - when you try to use a "lower status" (presumably >>>covertly prestigious form) but get it wrong. Spose one of you >>>flatlanders wanted to sound like a hillbilly and got into >>>a-prefixing. You might utter "I was a-rememberin what Ole Joe tole >>>me." But you would be wrong; a-pefixing doesn't occur before >>>unstressed syllables. >>> >>>dInIs >>> >>>>Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>> >>>>He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>> >>>>-Wilson > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages >A-740 Wells Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >Phone: (517) 432-3099 >Fax: (517) 432-2736 >preston at msu.edu From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 04:10:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:10:31 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I have noticed this. As a matter of fact, it's one of my reasons for watching the show. I love hearing the way that the guests talk. And I find myself really annoyed when Jerry takes it upon himself to mock the dialects of the guests. They've made him rich. Why dump on them any more than life already has? These are people whose lives are such that they consider an appearance on "The Jerry" to be an honor. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Wilson, ever notice how many of Jerry's guests have low-prestige >Southern or AAVE accents? Maybe the producers think the NYC Leo >Gorcey types are too scary. > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Matt, you need to spend more time watching trash TV. Watch the "Jerry >Springer" show and/or the "Maury" show. Either of these programs >provides straight-from-the-horse's-mouth examples of what's >possible in a wide selection of non-standard varieties of English as >spoken by blacks, whites, and Latins. The catch - isn't there always >one? - is that you very rarely get any information as to where the >speakers are from. And, even when you do, you don't get any >information as to what part of town the person lives in, his age, etc. > >As it happens, in the particular case under discussion, it was >revealed that the speaker lived in Providence, RI, as Judge Joe Brown >read aloud the defendant's criminal record. That's more information >than is usually available about a given "guest" on one of these shows. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to = >>standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was = >>suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction = >>(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation = >>or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness = >>so he'd want to avoid them here. >> >>BTW, is possessive 'who' actually attested for AAVE? I know that the = > >possessive marker on nouns is variably dropped - though not as = > >frequently as the 3rd sg. verbal marker is - but I don't recall having = > >heard or read (in the literature) examples of it dropping from 'whose'.=20 >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Dennis R. Preston >>Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 7:07 PM >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >>"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>=20 >>Nope; his analysis is (if I may speak for him) it that the possessive >>;'whose" is replaced by the form 'who,' perfectly expressive of the >>possessive (as we find in numerous varieties of AAVE, clearer perhaps >>in such forms as "I saw Mary car," i.e. "Mary's"). >> >>dInIs >> >>>So by Wilson's analysis what the man said was >>>"He aks me 'who's, uh, who car was it?" >>>Right? In other words he was uncontracting a contraction in this formal >>>context. >>> >>> >>>On 3/16/05 4:58 PM, "Wilson Gray" wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, they both were. It was the "Judge Joe Brown" show, which is a > >>> clone of "Judge Judy," if you're not familiar with it. Anyway, Judge >>>> Joe has absolutely no sympathy for the common street thug and has >>>> made that very clear. My impression was that the speaker, a common >>>> street thug, suddenly became aware of the difference between his >>>> low-class BE and the judge's middle-class BE. And, knowing that = >>Judge >>>> Joe Brown is not the kind of brother that you can conversate with, = >>he >>>> decided that it would behoove him to talk as "proper" as he could. >>>> But you really have to have had practice in order to switch to >>>> another dialect in mid-utterance, unless you're doing it all the >> >> time. I think our guy meant to shift "aks" to "ast" or even "asted," >> >> but it was already too late and he wound up "down-shifting," so to >> >> speak, from the "proper" "whose" to "who" by accident. >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >>>>> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >>>>> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >>>>> >>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------= >>------- >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Were both the interviewer and the guest black? Might this have = >>been >>>>> accommodation to an "in-group" interlocutor? >>>>> >>>>> At 04:14 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >>>>>> Spoken by a black TV-show guest: >>>>>> >>>>>> He aks me _whose, uh, who_ car was this. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Wilson >> >> >>-- >>Dennis R. Preston >>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics >>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African = >>Languages >>A-740 Wells Hall >>Michigan State University >>East Lansing, MI 48824 >>Phone: (517) 432-3099 >>Fax: (517) 432-2736 >>preston at msu.edu > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 04:20:41 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:20:41 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yeah but that's copula deletion (who < who's) not possessive deletion. Quite so. I regret the error. > = >What I haven't heard is "The baby who daddy that is called me yesterday" = >etc. > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Wed 3/16/2005 9:38 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >On the "Maury" show, you'll hear formations like "Who yo baby daddy, >bitch?!" a zillion times. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 05:37:29 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 00:37:29 -0500 Subject: More "Irish Toasts" (from Factiva, 1986, 1990, 1992, 1995, 1998, 2000) Message-ID: "Banister of life" seems clearly from Australia. Happy St. Patrick's Day, anyway. (FACTIVA) Irish toasts 309 words 17 March 2000 Deseret News C01 English Copyright (c) 2000 Deseret News Publishing Co. May the road rise up to meet you; May the wind be always at your back, the sunshine warm upon your face The rain fall soft upon your fields, And until we meet again, May God hold you in the hollow of his hand. May you taste the sweetest pleasures that fortune ere bestowed, and may all your friends remember all the favors you are owed. May misfortune follow you the rest of your life, but never catch up. As you slide down the banisters of life, may the splinters never point the wrong way. May your troubles be as few and as far apart as my Grandmother's teeth. A toast to your coffin. May it be made of 100-year-old oak. And may we plant the tree together, tomorrow. May you live to be a hundred years, With one extra year to repent! May I see you grey And combing your grandchildren's hair. May your blessings outnumber the shamrocks that grow, And may trouble avoid you wherever you go. When the roaring flames of your love have burned down to embers, may you find that you've married your best friend. May your home always be too small to hold all your friends. May the most you wish for Be the least you get. May your troubles be less And your blessings be more. And nothing but happiness Come through the door. May you have food and raiment, A soft pillow for your head, May you be forty years in heaven Before the devil knows you're dead. May your neighbors respect you, Trouble neglect you, The angels protect you, And heaven accept you, May the Irish hills caress you. May her lakes and rivers bless you. (FACTIVA) WEEKEND PLUS SPIRITED IRISH TOASTS 152 words 13 March 1998 Chicago Sun-Times LATE SPORTS FINAL 54; nc English Copyright (c) 1998 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. One of the traditional rites of the Irish is the presentation of a toast before downing libations. To help you get in the spirit, here are some Irish good wishes: May the road rise to meet you May the wind be always at your back. May the sun rise warm upon your face. . . May God hold you in the hollow of his hand. Long may you live. And may smoke always rise from your roof. Here's to the health of your enemies! May you live long, die happy and rate a mansion in Heaven. May the roof of your house never fall in and those beneath it never fall out. May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live. May you be in Heaven a full half hour afore the devil knows ye're dead. May the luck of the Irish enfold you. May the blessings of Saint Patrick behold you. (FACTIVA) Feature Looking at language Raise a glass to these great Irish toasts Richard Lederer For The Patriot Ledger 657 words 13 March 1995 The Patriot Ledger Quincy, MA Run Of Paper 12 English (Copyright 1995) In "Toasts," Paul Dickson writes, "There is no area of the world where English is spoken that can compare to Ireland as a stronghold for the custom of toasting. More often than not, toasts go by the name of `blessings' in Ireland. There are large numbers of them, and their use seems to be on the increase. All you have to do is listen, and if you spend the day in the Irish countryside, you will go away with countless blessings ringing in your ears." With St. Patrick's Day coming up this Friday, I present a guest column on the subject by Elaine O'Connor, a freelance writer and Irish folklorist who lives in Lowell: Long live the Irish! Long live their cheer! Long live our friendship Year after year. If you are lucky enough to be toasted by an Irishman or Irishwoman, you might be complimented so: "May you live a hundred years -- with one extra to repent." Or, "May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the foresight to know where you are going and the insight to know when you are going too far." On Christmas Eve, there is an old Irish custom of leaving the door unlocked and burning a candle in the window. The blessing states: "May peace and plenty be the first to lift the latch off your door and happiness be guided to your home by the candle of Christmas." In the New Year the Irish say: "May your right hand always be stretched out in friendship and never in want." The practice of toasting, which began in Ireland in the 1600s, depended on a special element or the toast would not work. The toast need not be rendered in Gaelic, but surely must contain a gentle splash of Irish whiskey. A piece of toast was dropped into the goblet, and the courtly and formalized ritual began. Some of the most memorable are: "I propose a toast to the health of your enemy's enemy. (That is, you.)" To an Irish bachelor: "May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the new spuds are up." "I propose a toast to the next round of drinks." "May the hinges of our friendship never grow rusty." "If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you are lucky enough!" "May the road rise to meet you. "May the wind be always at your back "And the sun shine warm on your face, "The rain fall soft upon your fields, "And until we meet again, "May God hold you in the hollow of His hand." "May you have these: the bright warm sun of happiness, the soft cool shades of joy and many pleasures the whole life through." "These things I wish for you: "Someone to love, "Some work to do, "A bit of sun, "A bit of cheer, "And a guardian angel always near." "May you be half an hour in heaven before the devil knows you are dead." "May you live to be 100 and be dispatched by a jealous husband (or wife)." This one is from the breastplate of St. Patrick: "May you be blessed with the strength of heaven, "The light of the sun and the radiance of the moon, "The splendor of fire, the speed of lightning, "The swiftness of wind, the depth of the sea, "The stability of earth and the firmness of rock. The well-known reply, "Here's mud in your eye," is not a toast to a friend but a toast to the one doing the toasting. It means the rider of the losing horse on a muddy track will have mud splashed in his eye from the horse of the winner. (FACTIVA) LIFESTYLE Ellie Rucker Luck of Irish is with reader Ellie Rucker 618 words 7 March 1992 Austin American-Statesman FINAL D1 English (Copyright 1992) Q:Do you know anybody who can speak Irish? I'm in charge of a St. Patrick's Day party and we'd like to make some invitations, that instead of saying, "You are cordially invited," use the Irish expression for that. I can't find anything. - Ann Strom A:The Emerald Restaurant out on 71 West has been a good source in the past. Once again, they came through. They suggest: "You will be met by a hundred thousand welcomes" is "Cead mile failte." Now, want some Irish blessings? Good. Here are some: May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live. May you be in heaven a half-hour before the devil knows you're dead. May the good Lord take a likin' to you, but not too soon. The Irish recipe for longevity: Leave the table hungry, leave the bed sleepy and leave the tavern thirsty. If you're lucky enough to be Irish, you're lucky enough. (FACTIVA) TASTE Sayings could fill a book, and they do Ellen Foley; Staff Writer 745 words 14 March 1990 Star-Tribune Newspaper of the Twin Cities Mpls.-St. Paul METRO 01T English (Copyright 1990) The Irish are a gregarious lot who love to mingle in their local pubs and toast to the good fortune of their family and neighbors. Perhaps the social character of their culture has been preserved best in some of the colorful sayings and toasts which Taste has collected for your St. Patrick's Day celebration. The first is called "An Irish Prayer," but one can imagine it recited at a dinner or gathering. It's contributed by Betty and Kiernan Folliard of Hopkins, whose brogues attest to its authenticity: An Irish Prayer May those that love us, love us And those that don't love us, May God turn their hearts And if He doesn't turn their hearts, May He turn their ankles, So we'll know them by their limping. One of the better known sayings comes to us from Tim McGuire, managing editor of the Star Tribune: May you be in heaven a half-hour before the devil knows you're dead. Adds McGuire: "We journalists need all the help we can get." Another proud local Irish-American is Bob Haugh, chairman of the board and chief executive officer of St. Paul Companies and a descendent of the Haughs of County Clare. He and his brother, Dr. John Haugh of Milwaukee, remember their grandmother speaking gently in Gaelic of her husband: "The head of the goose is for the head of the house." The saying loses a bit in translation and may rattle the sensibilities of more liberated Irish-American women, but in more plain terms it means, "Give papa the best we have, for he works hard to support us." The sweet sentiment of love between spouses is also expressed in this anniversary toast supplied to Taste by columnist John Byrne of the Irish Echo, a national Irish-American newspaper based in New York: I have known many And liked a few I've loved only one I drink to you Byrne solicited from his Irish friends several other toasts with which to celebrate other holidays. For birthdays: May you live as long as you want And never want as long as you live. May you die in bed at 95 years Shot by a jealous husband (or wife). May you live to be 100 years With one extra year to repent. I drink to your coffin: May it be built from the wood of a 100-year-old oak tree That I should plant tomorrow For bachelors: May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the spuds are up. Health and Life to you The wife of your choice to you Land without rent to you For a wake: May every hair on your head Turn into a candle to light your way to heaven And may God and His Holy Mother take the harm of the years away from you. For a wedding: A generation of children on the children of your children For friends: May the roof above us never fall in And may we friends gathered below never fall away May the grass grow long on the road to hell for want of use. There is even now a book called "Irish Toasts" collected and illustrated by Karen Bailey ($5.95, Chronicle Books, 1987). The book is available at Irish Books and Media, Inc., 1433 Franklin Av. E., Minneapolis, 871-3505. The 58-page book has some of the most unusual and most well-known Irish toasts, including this ditty familiar to most gift shop browsers: May the road rise to meet you May the wind always be at your back The sun shine warm upon your face The rain fall soft upon your fields And until we meet again May God hold you in the hollow of His Hand Some of the more unusual toasts from the book include: In the New Year, may your right hand always Be stretched out in friendship and never in want May you have warm words on a cold evening A full moon on a dark night And a road downhill all the way to your door. And since this is the Taste section and the new Irish cusine is our focus, here's one last toast from Bailey's book: The health of the salmon to you, A long life, A full heart And a wet mouth. Happy St. Patrick's Day! (FACTIVA) Sport VO ROGUE FAILS TO OUT-RUN STIPES >From ALAN AITKEN 479 words 25 February 1990 Sun Herald 71 English Copyright of John Fairfax Group Pty Ltd VO ROGUE'S Melbourne autumn campaign may be abandoned after the bitterness of losing yesterday's St George Stakes on a protest. His Melbourne mission had been the Australian Cup at Flemington on March 12 but the gelding's connections lashed out angrily after losing to King's High in the stewards' room at Caulfield. "Whether we just go straight to Sydney or not now is up to the owners but we were definitely robbed here," an emotional trainer Vic Rail said after the protest decision was announced. "As you slide down the banister of life you just consider that another splinter in the arse," said part owner Jeff Perry. (FACTIVA) PEOPLE RED HAIR, WHITE LINEN, AND GREEN BEER 3,597 words 17 March 1986 The San Francisco Chronicle FINAL 14 English (Copyright 1986) (...) -- From UC-Berkeley folklorist and anthropologist Alan Dundes: "What's an Irish seven-course dinner? A six-pack and a potato." (...) BUT DON'T TALK WITH YOUR MOUTH FULL None of this "cheers" or "salud" bit when you're raising your glasses today. "The Irishman never uses one word when he can get away with 10," says Jack McGowan of Dublin, communications manager of Irish Distillers International Inc., who is visiting San Francisco today for an Irish coffee celebration at the Cliff House. McGowan has made a collection of Irish toasts, beginning with the one made familiar by President John F. Kennedy, the most successful of American-born Irishmen: "May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, the sun shine warm upon your face, the rains fall soft upon your fields and until we meet again, may God hold you in the hollow of his hand." Or, if that's a little too wordy: "May God hold you in the hollow of his hand but never close his fist too tightly upon you." For a general occasion, McGowan suggests: "Health and long life to you, the man or woman of your choice to you, land without rent to you, and may you be half an hour in heaven before the devil knows you're dead." To an unwed friend: "May you have nicer legs than your own under the table before the new spuds are up." For a birthday: "May you live as long as you want but never want as long as you live." BLAKE GREEN From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 06:18:01 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:18:01 -0500 Subject: "Scofflaw" in Harvard Crimson (1923, 1924) Message-ID: I'm going to add "scofflaw" to my web page. As usual, my notes in the old ADS-L archives are all unavailable...Note the "scoffing at the law" in October 1923. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=422468 Published on Thursday, October 11, 1923 TOO LIBATORY No writer attributed Although the University Glee Club has "washed its hands" of the double quartet whose rendition of "Johnny Harvard" called forth Mr. Delcevare King's criticism, it scarcely seems necessary for the college to disown these men. At the time when this and many other old Harvard songs were written Prohibition had not yet made the convivial board a rare and clandestine affair. A ban now on all such jolly old songs would be much like the absurd ban on the teaching of German in this country during the war. If, perhaps, Mr. King would not have all such songs put out of everybody's reach, when would he have them sung? For the songs were written to be sung, not read, I pently if, by his interpretation of the American Bar Association's warning, singing "Johnny Harvard" after the debate was scoffing at the Prohibition Law, singing it anywhere would likewise be scoffing at the Law. The song itself was written as a toast to Harvard, not "to glorify the joys of drinking". It happens, so ingrown are the bad habits of Americans, that at many a banquet toasts are still made and drunk, albeit necessarily in water or lemonade. It is quite likely that "Johnny Harvard" was sung with glasses in hand. Take away the wine from the banquet and the glasses from the song and the two cases are practically parellel-except that singing a toast in public is more attractive to the ear than speaking a toast in public. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423683 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 PAGE SENATOR SOUNDER No writer attributed After sifting 25,000 words submitted by more than 6000 contestants, Mr. Delcevare King of Quincy, staunch and ingenious disciple of Prohibition, has chosen the composite "scofflaw" as best describing those revolting, unregenerate citizens who delight in violating the Eighteenth Amendment. This word was selected because best of all it conjured up nauseating visions, true portraits of the lawbreakers, and suggested to every right-thinking person their deep and ignominious depravity. Just repeat "scofflaw" quietly several times; its deadly effect is immediately apparent. Anyone who applies the term to a fellow citizen will do well to follow the famous advice of "the Virginian",--"When you call me that--smile!" Besides rendering the country the marked service of producing a cabalistic word eminently suited to turn bootleggers to stone and petrify rum-runners in their very tracks, Mr. King has set the fashion which undoubtedly will become popular of inventing expressive nick-names of sufficient repulsiveness to apply to nuisances and wrong-doors of every kind. If one is plagued by cigarette borrowers, one can wreak one's vengeance by calling them "ciggabars" or "gottabutts". Or if one's room mate insists on leaving the bath-room door open when the bed-room window is up, one might effectively insult him with the epithet "atmophile", or even in extreme cases "aerodome". The possibilities of this sort of thing are really unlimited. Mr. King little knows what potent forces he has unleashed. But even if such new-coined words of opprobrium enjoy a short-lived popularity, it is probable that the good old monosyllabic terms of the Anglo-Saxon language will still retain their unquestioned away over man's emotions. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423684 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 "SCOFILAW" WILL MAKE LAWLESS DRINKER CRINGE Delcevare King '95 Now Offers Another $200 Prize for Best Essay on Why the Imbiber Should Bear This Name No writer attributed Email this article to a friend Send a letter to the editor Print this article "Scofflaw, n. One who drinks liquor made or obtained illegally." The dictionary of the future will contain the above entry, if the popular imagination is captured by the winning word in the $200 contest which has been conducted recently by Delcevare King '95 for an epithet of bitter opprobrium applicable to a lawless drinker. From among over 25,000 words submitted by 6234 people, the winning term was chosen, according to the announcement of the award made last night by the judges. Inspiration Hits Two at Once This term occurred to two individuals as the one most appropriate name for the violator of the eighteenth amendment, so that it has been necessary to divide the $200 between the two originators, Henry Irving Dale of Andover, and Miss Kate L. Butler of Fields Corner. Despite the alleged unpopularity of the wets in the West and the many entries received from that section of the country, Massachusetts, the stronghold of anti-Volstead sentiment, has furnished the chosen epithet. In order to popularize his new term, Mr. King stated that; coincident with the close of the old contest, a new one will begin, in which another $200 will be divided among the authors of the five best 100 word statements of why the drinker of illegal beverages should be called a "scofflaw". This second contest closes on January 31. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423683 Published on Wednesday, January 16, 1924 PAGE SENATOR SOUNDER No writer attributed After sifting 25,000 words submitted by more than 6000 contestants, Mr. Delcevare King of Quincy, staunch and ingenious disciple of Prohibition, has chosen the composite "scofflaw" as best describing those revolting, unregenerate citizens who delight in violating the Eighteenth Amendment. This word was selected because best of all it conjured up nauseating visions, true portraits of the lawbreakers, and suggested to every right-thinking person their deep and ignominious depravity. Just repeat "scofflaw" quietly several times; its deadly effect is immediately apparent. Anyone who applies the term to a fellow citizen will do well to follow the famous advice of "the Virginian",--"When you call me that--smile!" Besides rendering the country the marked service of producing a cabalistic word eminently suited to turn bootleggers to stone and petrify rum-runners in their very tracks, Mr. King has set the fashion which undoubtedly will become popular of inventing expressive nick-names of sufficient repulsiveness to apply to nuisances and wrong-doors of every kind. If one is plagued by cigarette borrowers, one can wreak one's vengeance by calling them "ciggabars" or "gottabutts". Or if one's room mate insists on leaving the bath-room door open when the bed-room window is up, one might effectively insult him with the epithet "atmophile", or even in extreme cases "aerodome". The possibilities of this sort of thing are really unlimited. Mr. King little knows what potent forces he has unleashed. But even if such new-coined words of opprobrium enjoy a short-lived popularity, it is probable that the good old monosyllabic terms of the Anglo-Saxon language will still retain their unquestioned away over man's emotions. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=263917 Published on Tuesday, January 29, 1924 "FINE!" SAYS DELCEVARE KING OF ADVOCATE OFFER No writer attributed "That's fine! Let us turn on the light and get people thinking!" was the comment of Delcevare King '95 when informed of the Advocate's prize contest for the best word stigmatizing Drys. Mr. King, whose own prize contest resulted in the dubbing of prohibition violators as "Scofflaws", went on to say: "People can poke fun at the idea that the violator of law is a menace to the government, but after all law is the basis of government. Keep the thing before the public--both sides of it. The more it is discussed, the sooner right will come out on top." Despite his enthusiasm for the Advocate's contest, however, Mr. King offered no epithet with which to brand the "Anti-scofflaw". http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423942 Published on Friday, February 08, 1924 HARVARD PROVES DRIER THAN DELCEVARE KING SO DESPERATE EDITORS RAISE THE ANTE No writer attributed The prize offered by the Editors of the Advocate to the person contributing the best word stigmatizing Drys has been raised from 10 dollars to 25 dollars. In spite of the large number of suggestions already sent in, the Board feels that the increased award will attract many more. The contest is taking on a national aspect and a full expression of public opinion is desired. All the New England states have already been heard from as well as New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, West Virginia, Texas, Florida, Colorado, the District of Columbia, and several provinces of Canada. Among the 500 names now in the Editor's hands, the most popular seem to be "dry rot", "camelouse", and "dryad". But the sponsor of "scofflaw" comes in for his share of the scorn. A "Boston deb" has entered the word "Delcevare" as best stimulating a dry. She desires that the prize be held and awarded to the person writing the best essay on "Why it is a stinging insult to call a man Delcevare." Most of the entries, however, have come from married women and on all sorts of paper, some scrawled in pencil on scraps, others neatly written on the best grade of highly scented vellum. Only ten suggestions have been received from the University thus far, and in hopes of obtaining more, the Advocate will take entries over the telephone daily except Saturday and Sunday from 5 to 6 o'clock in the evening, until the close of the contest on February 13. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=423980 Published on Wednesday, February 13, 1924 Delcevare King Shows Partiality to Alma Mater; $25 in Prize Money Has Already Been Snapped Up by Harvard Men No writer attributed Mr. Delcevare King '95, whose notorous "scofflaw" contest brought him national praise and approbrium, is now engaged in announcing the winners of his subsequent prize offers for the best statements on why a "scofflaw" is aptly denominated by that term. This operation requires time. Yesterday Mr. King gave out the names of the winners of his five special prizes, today he announces the fifth and fourth prize-winners, tomorrow will occur the climax of the release of the names of those who have captured third, second, and first places. In this way ample publicity is to be secured. No less than $25 of the $80 already distributed has gone to Harvard graduates. Yesterday came the word that the Rev. Charles Newell St. John '08 of Montpelier, Vermont is one of the five special prize winners. Today the winner of fourth place is announced as Mr. Ellery H. Clark '96 of Boston. Mr. Clark's statement concludes as follows: "The Scofflaw, most emphatically, does not 'Play the Game'. The Umpire, the American Nation, has ruled that Prohibition is 'safe', and that the drinker is 'out'. But the Scofflaw refuses to accept the Umpire's ruling. To hell with America!' he snarls, "I've got to have my drink!" "Behold him a skulker; a non-American; a 'poor sport'; lacking the man hood to play the Game.'" http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424014 Published on Thursday, February 14, 1924 Communication A Rebuke No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: I want to point out that the word scofflaw was coined to stigmatize only those wets who advocate breaking or who do themselves break the law of the country. If a man conscientiously believes that the modification of the Volstead Act or the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment would be for the good of his country, and yet respects the law while it is on the books, the word scofflaw would in no way apply to him. Scofflaw is meant to stigmatize a certain class of lawbreakers, and this purpose is entirely legitimate. On the other hand, the competition which the Advocate is running is directed against a certain class of people only because they hold conscientious opinions. A scofflaw is no more the opposite of a dry than he is the opposite of a law-abiding wet. Thus this competition cannot possibly be considered an answer to Mr. Delcevare King's. It is but the beginning of a mud-slinging contest between wets and drys, and as such I do not think it ought to have the support of the CRIMSON which is a paper that should be above participating in such contests. --Horr Rooxey Gaulf '26 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424044 Published on Friday, February 15, 1924 King Favors Fellow-Townsman No writer attributed Delcevare King '95, continuing his policy of releasing one by one the names of the prize-winners in his second "scofflaw" contest, yesterday announced that second prize, in the shape of $50, has gone to the Rev. William Nicholl, a fellow-citizen of Quincy. The winner of first prize will be named today. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424064 Published on Saturday, February 16, 1924 Communication Another View No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: As much as I abhor giving any publicity whatsoever to that sterling citizen, Mr. Delcevare King, I should like to bring out one point which seems to have been overlooked in all these discussions over that admirable word "scofflaw", Mr. King's great claim to fame. In my mind, Prohibition is one of those unfortunate statutes which has tended to turn this country into a law-breaking rather than a law-abiding land. Moreover, those narrow-minded persons who refuse to see both sides of this question, instead of being the country's greatest patriots, as they delight in terming themselves, are merely hopelessly trying to have enforced without limitation a decree which has caused more law-abiding citizens to become, legally, criminals, and more criminals, actually, to become wealthy and influential men than any other law in the history of the country, to put it mildly. A scofflaw, may not be at heart a law breaker: it may be that he is a person who will not give his support to a law which makes honest men criminals and which tends to disrupt national peace. It is not that I support those who scoff at prohibition: it is, rather, that I have no sympathy for those reforming zealots who merely antagonize men of a wider outlook and deeper perspective by looking, as Kipling puts it, "too good" and talking "too wise". CARL RIMSEY HEUSSY '26. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=424057 Published on Saturday, February 16, 1924 "SCOFFLAW" PRIZE ESSAYIST GOT TRAINING AT HARVARD No writer attributed Mr. Harold Bisbee '00 is the honored recipient of $100 in gold representing first prize in the "Scofflaw" Contest. His essay was one of the few submitted that would have won approval from the English Department, and perhaps he has his Harvard education to thank for that. The winning essay, made public this morning for the first time, contains little that is new. Its chief merit is the apt summary of Mr. Delcevare King's views. "The willingness with which obedience responds to enforcement is the acid test of true democracy," says Mr. Bisbee, in the course of his arguments to prove that the lawless should be abhorred as a "Scofflaw". http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=171877 Published on Monday, February 18, 1924 Communication "Compliments of the Author" No writer attributed (The CRIMSON invites all men in the University to submit signed communications of timely interest. It assumes no responsibility, however, for sentiments expressed under this head and reserves the right to exclude any whose publication would be palpably inappropriate.) To the Editor of the CRIMSON: It is a satisfaction to read Mr. Hoyt Rodney Gale's searching communication. The issue is no longer Wet or Dry, but Law or Lawlessness, and the basis of all the Contest and my effort is to bring home to the lawless drinker that he is aiding in violating the law, and as such is, in the words of President Harding, "a menace to the Republic itself". The greatest domestic problem before our Nation today is "Shall the Constitution of the United States be obeyed?" The Scofflaw says "No!" Yours for stabbing awake the conscience of the Scofflaw, and the general conscience too, DELCEVARE KING. P. S.--Allow me to congratulate you on the spirit of fair play you show in publishing Mr. Gale's communication. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Mar 17 13:57:58 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:57:58 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: neil > on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>spoken register of BE. > 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - > with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i remember, heard [ugl].) And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* (and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 14:07:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:07:09 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. JL David Bowie wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: David Bowie Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neil > on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>spoken register of BE. > 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - > with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i remember, heard [ugl].) And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* (and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 14:28:35 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:28:35 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: <20050317140709.81891.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am in complete support of the Barney Google contamination theory of ogle /ogl/ to yield /ugl/. I offer no proof, but I sure like it. dInIs >Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. > >JL > >David Bowie wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU Thu Mar 17 15:51:48 2005 From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:51:48 -0600 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) In-Reply-To: <1110907283.42371993c1520@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be used with the same meaning in your example? Damien Hall wrote: >This may well just be coincidental, but (also anecdotally) I have noticed >another, well, change going on with *change*, in some people's BrEng at least: > >*change* > *change up* > >as in > >'I haven't got any Euros at the moment, but I suppose I'll change some money up >on the boat' > >(said just before a trip from England to France on the ferry. Intonation made >it clear that this was a phrasal verb *change up* + PP *on the boat*, not >simplex *change* + PP *on the boat*; it's actually difficult to find examples >that are disambiguated by not being followed by a PP, since it seems that >*change up* is for money only, and you have to do that somewhere.) > >It's a subject of indignation in a way similar to Jim's, at least for my sister, >whose boyfriend it is who says this, causing her to rant that there's no reason >for the *up* and it should just be *change*. But my casual impression is that >I've heard it from others too. I suspect that there are contexts in which >*change up* is already part of the 'standard' lexicon (apart from gears, which >can be but aren't always changed up), but I can't come up with any. > >So this just adds to Jim's question. I am hearing *change up* where I would >expect *change*. Is there something about *change* that invites its >specification by a preposition in general, in the way that Doug indicated for >*change out* in particular? That seemed to me a good explanation for *change >out* and it would be nice if it could be generalised. > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > > From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:22:54 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:22:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <20050317050030.4508BB24F5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: dInIs writes: >>>>> Note that all so-called set phrases all obey the stress rule - a-fuedin and a fussin, a fussin and a-fighten, a screamin and a -hollerin, etc, etc. But a-drinkin and a-dancin are good (and not set), but a-fussin and a-arguin (no a-prefixin before vowels) and a-walking and a-peraumblulatin (no a-prexin before weakly stressed syllables) ainp;t worth a crap. <<<<< A-talkin and a-writin and a-prefixin, ain't we? And Matthew Gordon writes: >>>>> OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. <<<<< Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for "Mommy is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive form of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" and "whose/who's car?". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:33:41 2005 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 10:33:41 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: I was kidding about the laziness. I'm not calling the possessive a contraction; I'm talking about "who's' from 'who + was' as the contraction. Since this was a spoken example, we don't know whether the guy who said /huz/ meant 'whose' or 'who's'. The situation seemed to me to make uncontracting more likely as an explanation for /huz/ > 'who' than did the hypocorrection. Syntactically we have to say that he changed the structure of the sentence halfway, but... -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Mark A. Mandel Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 10:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? And Matthew Gordon writes: >>>>> OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction (who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness so he'd want to avoid them here. <<<<< Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for "Mommy is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive form of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" and "whose/who's car?". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 17 16:51:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 11:51:53 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from "goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with "book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: ----- Indiana Evening Gazette (Pa.), March 31, 1917, p. 3/3 There's a moral here for golfing gooks Who drive into woods and brooks-- 'Tis better to toss the texts away And forget what the golfing experts say, Like the good old Scot, who learned to play Ere they thought of golfing books. ----- (From the context of the verse, a "golfing gook" is a "duffer".) There's also the 1950s slang term "book gook" for a studious person, discussed in a post by Doug Wilson about a 1952 article on teen slang: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408A&L=ads-l&P=R7313 In a follow-up, I mentioned the use of "book gook" in a short 1952 film available on the Internet Archive called "Young Man's Fancy": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410D&L=ads-l&P=R355 The protagonist, a slang-slinging teenage girl named Judy Adams, pronounces "book gook" as /bUk gUk/ in this section of the film: ----- http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=1244 (2:45) Judy: For Pete's sake, wouldn't you know that goon brother of mine would bring home something that lives under a rock? Mrs. Adams: Judy, I do wish you'd speak English like normal human beings. Besides, I'm sure Mr. Phipps is a very nice young man. Judy: I know, but just because Bob is a book gook is no reason he has to bring another one home with him. ----- The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a secondary pronunciation. Is there any evidence that the xenonym "gook" has also been pronounced /gUk/? That might indicate influence from these other senses of "gook". --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 16:55:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 08:55:45 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: You can listen to the 1923 melody while reading the words here: http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/barneygoogle.htm JL "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am in complete support of the Barney Google contamination theory of ogle /ogl/ to yield /ugl/. I offer no proof, but I sure like it. dInIs >Yes. "Ohgle" means /ogl/. > >JL > >David Bowie wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx >Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the >house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:02:33 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:02:33 -0800 Subject: *change* + preposition (was: change > change out) In-Reply-To: <4239A794.60201@wku.edu> Message-ID: Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, what do they know?) Peter Mc. --On Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:51 AM -0600 Lesa Dill wrote: > I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting > the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't > work, would it? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 17:06:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:06:21 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: To mix up the mix further, I have also heard "gook" ("wog") pronounced to rhyme with "book," though this appears to be a distinctly infrequent approach. Perhaps cf. the variation between /hUd/ "thug" as people like me say it, and /hud/ as others do. (Couldn't believe this one either when I first heard it.) But I say / 'hudl at m /. Am coming around to the view that "Go figure !" was coined by a linguist. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from "goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with "book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: ----- Indiana Evening Gazette (Pa.), March 31, 1917, p. 3/3 There's a moral here for golfing gooks Who drive into woods and brooks-- 'Tis better to toss the texts away And forget what the golfing experts say, Like the good old Scot, who learned to play Ere they thought of golfing books. ----- (From the context of the verse, a "golfing gook" is a "duffer".) There's also the 1950s slang term "book gook" for a studious person, discussed in a post by Doug Wilson about a 1952 article on teen slang: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408A&L=ads-l&P=R7313 In a follow-up, I mentioned the use of "book gook" in a short 1952 film available on the Internet Archive called "Young Man's Fancy": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0410D&L=ads-l&P=R355 The protagonist, a slang-slinging teenage girl named Judy Adams, pronounces "book gook" as /bUk gUk/ in this section of the film: ----- http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?id=1244 (2:45) Judy: For Pete's sake, wouldn't you know that goon brother of mine would bring home something that lives under a rock? Mrs. Adams: Judy, I do wish you'd speak English like normal human beings. Besides, I'm sure Mr. Phipps is a very nice young man. Judy: I know, but just because Bob is a book gook is no reason he has to bring another one home with him. ----- The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a secondary pronunciation. Is there any evidence that the xenonym "gook" has also been pronounced /gUk/? That might indicate influence from these other senses of "gook". --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 17:11:39 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 09:11:39 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From gingi at POBOX.COM Thu Mar 17 17:16:07 2005 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:16:07 -0500 Subject: grammar changes with formality? Message-ID: I've noticed that the students at the school where I work tend to write notes to one another (or in the discussion conferences) only partially grammatically, sometimes even in "l33t" (originally designed to allow for as few letters as possible per word, for internet chat, but net-savvy teens seem to have adopted it as their own language). This doesn't really surprise me; though our kids have to prove academic merit in order to go here, they're still teens and will go their own way. :) What *did* surprise me was a note I got from a coworker today, with no capitalization and hardly any punctuation. This was a personal matter (she's handing down a bassinet to me), and it surprised me because her professional emails are generally quite grammatical. I have friends who write very ungrammatically, but it's across the board and is due to terrible writing teachers, not personal choice. Is this a trend? Am I just a grammar nazi for even noticing that she writes differently in an informal email than in a formal one? -- --<@ Rachel L.S. Sommer http://www.gingicat.org "If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist." --George Carlin From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:24:11 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:24:11 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? Message-ID: Someone (Orin Hargraves? All I have is 'O.') wrote that Italians had started to use *neuri* / *pleuri* for 'Euros'. That reminded me that I once heard *neuros* myself in France. As it did for Orin, a Google search reveals what I would also call 'some frequency': there were some hits for both *neuro* and *neuros* as currency, though you have to just look at all the results to know whether the hit is on a reference to money or a ref to the prefix *neuro-*, which means the same as it does in English. The French nominalisation *neuro* is also a slang term for 'neurotic (n.)', or something like that. *Neuro* for money was much commoner in Google Groups than in websites. I once also asked whether *balles* ('(small) ball, bullet'), the slang term that the French had for francs, had been or could be transferred to euros. The emphatic answer was 'No', and a Google search confirms that. I *have* heard *balles* used since the introduction of the euro, but it still referred to francs: it was being used by people who still preferred to give monetary values in francs, not having got used to the new-fangled money. Examples of *neuros* from Google Groups below. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania =============================== les neuros ? Subject: [QUEST] les neuros ? Dans mes messages vers les newsgroup le sigle ? (Euro) devient ? ? la lecture. z'avez une explication ? Solution ? Merci ================== Fixed font - Proportional font Ati rage pro 32 mo==> 18 neuros Only 1 message in topic - view as tree jude Apr 3 2003, 2:12 am show options Newsgroups: fr.petites-annonces.informatique.materiel From: j... at no-log.org (jude) - Find messages by this author Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 10:25:16 GMT Local: Thurs,Apr 3 20032:25 am Subject: [VDS] Ati rage pro 32 mo==> 18 neuros Reply to Author| Forward| Print| Individual Message| Show original| Report Abuse Hello a vendre, ati rage pro 32 mo sur port agp achat en decembre 2002 puce ati, modele fabriqu?e par je sais pas qui. 18 euros sans port 20 euros avec port From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:32:24 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:32:24 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <51469.69.142.143.59.1111078313.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: > I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... >The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >secondary pronunciation. > ... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) larry From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Mar 17 17:44:14 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:44:14 -0500 Subject: No slang name for Euro? In-Reply-To: <1111080251.4239bd3ba503f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2005, at 12:24, Damien Hall wrote: > Someone (Orin Hargraves? All I have is 'O.') wrote that Italians had > started to use *neuri* / *pleuri* for 'Euros'. It was Orion Montoya. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 17 17:46:42 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 12:46:42 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, You have now heard /guk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledy...". Well, you didn't really hear it, but you can imagine my dulcet tones. It has no connection with the xenoslur, but it may be connected (my introspector is broke today) with my guck, which I can pronounce either /g^k/ (contamination from 'yuck(y)'?) or /gUk/ (but definitely not /guk/. dInIs >At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >>"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >>this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >>senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >>"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: >> > >I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for >the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... > >>The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >>variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >>the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >>secondary pronunciation. >> >... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck >and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 17 18:08:51 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:08:51 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: <20050317005942.38798.qmail@web53904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I agree on both counts. Our college students pretend they don't know the form, until some finally admit that maybe their grandfather uses it (yeah, sure). And I've never seen it in writing. At 07:59 PM 3/16/2005, you wrote: >I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost daily here in >East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college students, though. And I don't >believ I've ever seen it in a freshman theme. > >JL > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Barrett >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The interviewee then >just reversed the internal order of this phrase for emphasis. > >Benjamin Barrett >Questioning in Seattle > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Beverly Flanigan >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, or at least >isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on local radio this morning. >Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern Ohio, the >interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and >a-screamin'"--four attestations! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 17 18:21:17 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 13:21:17 -0500 Subject: Mobisode; Gold Collar; Bartendresses Message-ID: Greetings from my lunch hour. The guard approached me and said that he needed $1,000 or he might be gone from this earth by Monday. So then another person said that I could afford it, it's the guy's life, what am I, cheap? Life is working out great. Did I commit some crime that I have to do this for twenty years? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MOBISODE It's in today's Wall Street Journal, page B3. It's a "mobile episode." It should be researched and recorded. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GOLD COLLAR 17 March 2005, New York Daily News, pg. 38, col. 1: _SHE'S GOLD, HE'S BLUE_ _Blue-collars holdon to green--gold-collars spend big (...) The first is your old-fashioned, blue-collar kind of folk. The other has now officially been dubbed "gold collar." A new study by Chicago-based research firm Synovate has carved out a niche for these new gold collars--working-class kids who blow huge portions of their income on high-end luxuries. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BARTENDRESSES >From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote to say that she was in favor of calling females who work behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >From Philip Duff, Holland: "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always seemed to indicate a trained professional." Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, too. Here's what she had to say: "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his e-mail "Jeffrey" suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when referring to female bartenders. The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a good unisex term that should be employed when referring to bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 19:07:05 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:07:05 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:46 PM -0500 3/17/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >You have now heard /guk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledy...". >Well, you didn't really hear it, but you can imagine my dulcet tones. > >It has no connection with the xenoslur, but it may be connected (my >introspector is broke today) with my guck, which I can pronounce >either /g^k/ (contamination from 'yuck(y)'?) or /gUk/ (but definitely >not /guk/. > >dInIs No, I think they're independent. I have both "guck" /gUk/ and "gook" /g^k/ for the goopy mess--I'm not sure how I'd be able to tell if the latter pronunciation is an alternate rendering of "guck" or the phonetic representation of a distinct lexical item "gook" with the same meaning, as I've been assuming. But I have only "gobbledyg/U/k". L From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 17 19:07:25 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:07:25 -0000 Subject: Mobisode; Gold Collar; Bartendresses In-Reply-To: <8C6F9353E8E5E01-A48-5DC5@mblk-d30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: > -------------------------------- MOBISODE > > It's in today's Wall Street Journal, page B3. It's a "mobile episode." > It should be researched and recorded. Your wish is my command. Using my magic time machine, I have just written a piece for last November's World Wide Words. It's at http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-mob1.htm -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 20:21:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:21:31 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the plural. Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 17 20:24:05 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 15:24:05 -0500 Subject: "All dressed up and no place to go" (1913) In-Reply-To: <200503140451.j2E4pvYR031040@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "All dressed up with > nowhere to go" from William Allen White, 1916. Meatloaf sang that lyric > as well, in the 1970s. > > PERCY HAMMOND. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 21, > 1913. p. 10 (1 page): "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go" is the title > of Raymond Hitchock's comic lamentation this season in "The Beauty Shop" This goes back to 1912 in my files. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:33:37 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:33:37 -0600 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. > BARTENDRESSES > > From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: > > > Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches > > Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, > as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote > to say that she was in favor of calling females who work > behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. > Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with > Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . > > First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're > getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at > Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found > himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete > Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, > for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray > full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the > glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, > "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't > think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring > to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. > > Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: > > From Philip Duff, Holland: > > "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either > gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the > profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, > something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic > countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, > "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly > untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always > seemed to indicate a trained professional." > > Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? > > Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, > too. Here's what she had to say: > > "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being > called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If > I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or > outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men > pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would > Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a > pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to > "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- > > And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and > former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, > "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at > Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that > Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that > one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that > Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. > > A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she > didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even > "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to > call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before > they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his > e-mail "Jeffrey" > suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when > referring to female bartenders. > > The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a > good unisex term that should be employed when referring to > bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:37:11 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:37:11 -0600 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? Message-ID: >From Hee-Haw Roy Clark: "I'm a-pickin' . . ." Buck Owens: ". . . and I'm a-grinnin'". Also heard: Hootin' and a-hollerin'. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:00 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost > daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college > students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a > freshman theme. > > JL > > Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The > interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this > phrase for emphasis. > > Benjamin Barrett > Questioning in Seattle > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- > --- > > By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, > or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on > local radio this morning. > Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern > Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and > a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 20:50:49 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns of past Paul McEnroe; 23 July 1989 p. 01A "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" meeting. " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander > Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about > the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 17 21:06:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:06:27 -0500 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > >Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > >FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >of past >Paul McEnroe; >23 July 1989 p. 01A >"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >meeting. " Nexis has it from 1983: ----- Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a come-to-Jesus meeting here." ----- See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 17 21:25:54 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:25:54 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course you were "kidding about the laziness." Really? What's the evidence in support of this claim? All we know is what you wrote and nothing that you wrote supports the "kidding" (re)interpretation. Just kidding! >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I was kidding about the laziness. >I'm not calling the possessive a contraction; I'm talking about "who's' = >from 'who + was' as the contraction. Since this was a spoken example, we = >don't know whether the guy who said /huz/ meant 'whose' or 'who's'. The = >situation seemed to me to make uncontracting more likely as an = >explanation for /huz/ > 'who' than did the hypocorrection. Syntactically = >we have to say that he changed the structure of the sentence halfway, = >but... > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Mark A. Mandel >Sent: Thu 3/17/2005 10:22 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as = >"undercorrection/hypocorrection? >=20 >And Matthew Gordon writes: > >>>>> >OK, but if the man was motivated, as Wilson suggested, by trying to >standard up his speech for the judge, why go vernacular? What I was >suggesting was that he was reinterpreting "whose" as a contraction >(who's) and uncontracting in deference to the formality of the situation >or to his addressee. As we all know, contractions are a sign of laziness >so he'd want to avoid them here. > <<<<< > >Irrelevant to your argument, a point on terminology: That's not a >contraction. The first word of "Mommy's home!" is a contraction for = >"Mommy >is", but the homographous first word of "Mommy's car" is the possessive = >form >of "Mommy", and not a contraction of anything. Ditto for "who's there?" = >and >"whose/who's car?". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 22:09:30 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:09:30 -0600 Subject: looper Message-ID: looper (n.) a golfing caddy -- not in HDAS nor OED Caddyshack [film] written by Harold Ramis, Brian Doyle-Murray, Douglas Kenney, directed by Harold Ramis with improvised dialog by Bill Murray. 1980 "So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice. " ERIC SEAVALL TAKES LEAD IN GOLF TOURNEY FRANK FINCH Los Angeles Times; Dec 23, 1935; pg. 17 [quote from p. 19, col 3] "George Beer was the only caddy to qualify for the finals and now is hailed as the idol of the loopers." THE LOCKER ROOM CHARLES BARTLETT Chicago Daily Tribune; Jul 14, 1957; pg. A5 col. 2 "He won this same C. D. G. A. caddie title in 1924 as a looper from Ravisloe." "The Caddyshack Revisited," James T. Mulder, Syracuse Herald American, 1984-05-27 p. L1 col. 2 "In golf parlance, caddies are called "loopers," because they're paid to walk the loop, or circuit, of holes that make up a golf course." [later in article, p. L-2 col 5] "The retired looper laments the decline of his profession." From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:11:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:11:16 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Guck" is recorded much later than syn. "gook" and "gunk." This sort of {gook} is always, so far as I know, / gUk /. I assume "guck" is / g^k /." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:51 AM -0500 3/17/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). Here's a versified example from 1917: > I've only heard /guk/ for the xenoslur, and I've only heard /gUk/ for the last syllable of "gobbledygook", and... >The /gUk/ pronunciation perhaps aligns these usages with "gook" as a >variant of "guck" = 'thick messy substance' -- AHD and MWCD give /gUk/ as >the primary pronunciation of this sense of "gook", with /guk/ as a >secondary pronunciation. > ... for the mass noun above, the (I assume non-exact) synonym of guck and gunk (Who's gonna clean up this gook/guck/gunk on the counter?) larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:18:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:18:06 -0800 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Seems to me that "sundries" are frequently advertised on the windows of general stores in old westerns. At any rate, I am very familiar with the term, even if I've never heard it or used it. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: twat+oogle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the plural. Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: David Bowie >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: neil >> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: > >>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>spoken register of BE. > >> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. > >By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. > >For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >remember, heard [ugl].) > >And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > >-- >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is > chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:21:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:21:30 -0800 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: Yeah, "My name is X, and I'll be your waitstaff." Sounds like some kind of walking stick for corpulent. Have heard this for ten years at least, probably more. I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: Bartendresses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, waitresses, bartenders, etc. > BARTENDRESSES > > From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: > > > Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches > > Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, > as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote > to say that she was in favor of calling females who work > behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. > Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with > Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . > > First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're > getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at > Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found > himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete > Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, > for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray > full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the > glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, > "Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't > think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring > to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. > > Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: > > From Philip Duff, Holland: > > "I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either > gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the > profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, > something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic > countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, > "barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly > untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always > seemed to indicate a trained professional." > > Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? > > Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, > too. Here's what she had to say: > > "Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being > called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If > I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or > outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men > pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would > Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a > pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to > "wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- > > And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and > former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, > "Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at > Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that > Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that > one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that > Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. > > A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she > didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even > "sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to > call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before > they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his > e-mail "Jeffrey" > suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when > referring to female bartenders. > > The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a > good unisex term that should be employed when referring to > bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:22:45 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:22:45 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns of past Paul McEnroe; 23 July 1989 p. 01A "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" meeting. " > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander > Couey and authorities to see whether he knows anything about > the disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:23:36 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:23:36 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." It has come to this.... JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote: >ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > >Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > >FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >of past >Paul McEnroe; >23 July 1989 p. 01A >"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >meeting. " Nexis has it from 1983: ----- Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a come-to-Jesus meeting here." ----- See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 17 22:24:06 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:24:06 -0600 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" Message-ID: But you're ahead in so many other ways . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:23 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > > Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > > FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end > patterns of past Paul McEnroe; > 23 July 1989 p. 01A > "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a > "Come to Jesus" > meeting. " > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey > > and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the > > disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 17 22:25:23 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:25:23 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Don't patronize me. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you're ahead in so many other ways . . . > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:23 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Thanks, Bill. Good to know I'm only sixteen years behind the times. > > JL > > "Mullins, Bill" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. > > Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: > > FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end > patterns of past Paul McEnroe; > 23 July 1989 p. 01A > "Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a > "Come to Jesus" > meeting. " > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:12 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > > > "Fox News Live" about 90 minutes ago: > > > > "Basically it is a come-to-Jesus meeting between John Evander Couey > > and authorities to see whether he knows anything about the > > disappearance of Jessica Lee Lunsford." > > > > New to me, but many earlier exx. on the Net. > > > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Make Yahoo! your home page > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:05:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:09 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: A hearty thank you to anyone who can come up with pre-1981 printed exx. of the fig. phr."play in Peoria." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Fri Mar 18 01:31:21 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:31:21 -0600 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: <20050315155843.22209.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' (can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I > heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible > aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > > Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, > like "hit" ? > > Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > > JL > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:30:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:30:25 -0800 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. (Not *entirely* in jest this time.) JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' (can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I > heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible > aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" > > Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, > like "hit" ? > > Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. > > JL > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 01:35:07 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:35:07 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:05:09 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >A hearty thank you to anyone who can come up with pre-1981 printed exx. of >the fig. phr."play in Peoria." Attributed to John Ehrlichman in early Proquest cites: ----- New York Times Magazine, Aug 3, 1969, p. 59 When a newsman asked him why the President had made a certain move that had aroused criticism in Washington, Ehrlichman replied crisply: "Don't worry. It'll play in Peoria." ----- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 01:37:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:37:23 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <20050318010510.74067.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From ProQuest: ---------- _New York Times_, 3 Aug. 1969: p. SM6: ["Nixon's Inner Circle Meets"] <> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 01:45:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: A hearty thank you, Ben and Doug ! The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark (1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "Will it play in Peoria?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From ProQuest: ---------- _New York Times_, 3 Aug. 1969: p. SM6: ["Nixon's Inner Circle Meets"] > ---------- -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 02:08:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:08:21 -0500 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I was a little kid in St. Louis in the 'Forties, hunh-unh : unh-unh = white speech : black speech. White kids even reproduced the meaningless-to-children "aye-aye, sir" from war movies as "high-eye, sir." Of course, the "high-eye" could have been due to a reanalysis attempting to make something at least partially meaningful out of the otherwise totally meaningless. FWIW, in St. Louis, "unh-unh" can also be used to mean something like "Don't ask!" A. How things been goin' wit' you, man? B. Unh-unh! -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts >we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. > >(Not *entirely* in jest this time.) > >JL > >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Victoria Neufeldt >Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always >used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' >(can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a >pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I >> heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible >> aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >> Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, >> like "hit" ? >> >> Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >> JL >> > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Fri Mar 18 02:28:15 2005 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:28:15 -0600 Subject: Bartendresses In-Reply-To: <20050317222131.38483.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Don't forget "bustroid" > >I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." > >JL > > >"Mullins, Bill" wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: Bartendresses >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, >waitresses, bartenders, etc. > > > > >>BARTENDRESSES >> >>>From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: >> >> >>Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches >> >>Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, >>as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote >>to say that she was in favor of calling females who work >>behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. >>Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with >>Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . >> >>First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're >>getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at >>Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found >>himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete >>Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, >>for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray >>full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the >>glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, >>"Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't >>think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring >>to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. >> >>Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >> >>>From Philip Duff, Holland: >> >>"I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either >>gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the >>profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, >>something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic >>countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, >>"barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly >>untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always >>seemed to indicate a trained professional." >> >>Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? >> >>Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, >>too. Here's what she had to say: >> >>"Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being >>called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If >>I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or >>outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men >>pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would >>Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a >>pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to >>"wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- >> >>And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and >>former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, >>"Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at >>Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that >>Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that >>one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that >>Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. >> >>A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she >>didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even >>"sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to >>call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before >>they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his >>e-mail "Jeffrey" >>suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when >>referring to female bartenders. >> >>The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a >>good unisex term that should be employed when referring to >>bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. >> >> >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 02:25:40 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:25:40 -0800 Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've heard this sense as well, possibly only in AAVE. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was a little kid in St. Louis in the 'Forties, hunh-unh : unh-unh = white speech : black speech. White kids even reproduced the meaningless-to-children "aye-aye, sir" from war movies as "high-eye, sir." Of course, the "high-eye" could have been due to a reanalysis attempting to make something at least partially meaningful out of the otherwise totally meaningless. FWIW, in St. Louis, "unh-unh" can also be used to mean something like "Don't ask!" A. How things been goin' wit' you, man? B. Unh-unh! -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps by disambiguating these semiarticulate yet meaningful grunts >we are approaching the "Big Bang" of language itself. > >(Not *entirely* in jest this time.) > >JL > >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Victoria Neufeldt >Subject: Hunh-unh! (was: Origin of "oops") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >'Hunh-unh' is totally familiar to me. I'm sure that I have always >used (and heard) that as often as 'uh-uh' or 'unh-unh' or 'mm-mm' >(can't think of any other way to write the last one; it too has a >pronounced glottal stop between the syllables). > >Victoria > >Victoria Neufeldt >727 9th Street East >Saskatoon, Sask. >S7H 0M6 >Canada >Tel: 306-955-8910 > > >On Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:59 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Did I mention once before that when I moved to Tennessee I >> heard people saying "hunh-unh!" (No!) with quite audible >> aspiration where I was familiar only with "unh-unh!" >> >> Could this be a survival from Middle English ? You know, >> like "hit" ? >> >> Couldn't resist. But the reported form is genuine. >> >> JL >> > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 02:27:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:27:46 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've never heard it and, fortunately, never used it, either. As a child, I would "read" words that I didn't know by breaking them apart into pieces that I could, to a certain extent, understand. As a consequence, I spent much time vaguely wondering what "[[sun][dries]]" were. Neither other kids nor even adults seemed to know. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Seems to me that "sundries" are frequently advertised on the windows >of general stores in old westerns. > >At any rate, I am very familiar with the term, even if I've never >heard it or used it. > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: twat+oogle >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Yes, I mean [ogl]. Unfortunately, it's been decades I was last in >Salt Lake City and I'll probably never go there, again. So, I'll >probably never see the mimicry. However, the mere thought of the >various and sundry ways in which the good judge could be mimicked or >parodied is worth a laugh all by itself. > >FWIW, in my youth, neighborhood drugstores offered "sundries" for >sale. Otherwise, I've neither seen nor heard "sundry" used in the >plural. > >Further FWIW, Eric P. Hamp once proposed an etymology of "twat" in >which he related it to the "thwait" in names like "Crossthwaite." > >-Wilson Gray > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: David Bowie >>Subject: Re: twat+oogle >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>From: neil >>> on 16/3/05 2:33 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote: >> >>>>How do you feel about "oggle"? This is the way that I've heard it >>>>pronounced most often, And then there's "ohgle," which is the way >>>>that I pronounce "ogle" in my mind when I read it. I've never once >>>>had occasion to speak this word aloud. AFAIK, it's not used in any >>>>spoken register of BE. >> >>> 'ohgle' would be my pronunciation, also; but from now on I'll be oogling - >>> with its echoes of goo-goo eyes. >> >>By "ohgle", do you all mean [ogl]? It's an ambiguous spelling to me. >> >>For my part, i use [ogl], and when i've heard [agl] i've always assumed >>it was a spelling pronunciation--who knew? (I've never, as far as i >>remember, heard [ugl].) >> >>And while i've got you, i'll mention that Jimmy Chunga, one of the >>morning DJs on Salt Lake City's KENZ, does an absolutely *wonderful* > >(and not entirely parodic) mimic of Judge Joe Brown. > > > >-- > >David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx > > Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the > > house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is >> chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 02:31:46 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:31:46 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that disbanded in Peoria." --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 02:43:18 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <51469.69.142.143.59.1111078313.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: At 11:51 AM 3/17/2005, you wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). MW3 shows both /gUk/ and /guk/ for "gook" in senses "native", "glop" (sense like "book gook" not shown). If I were to hypothesize that "gook" = "native" was usually /gUk/ before WW II, would there be any convincing contrary evidence available to put me in my place? -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:02:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:02:03 -0800 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: More hearty thanks, my man! This sort of cite is undoubtedly relevant. Two or three more would be very good. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "Will it play in Peoria?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that disbanded in Peoria." --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:08:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:08:43 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." "In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 11:51 AM 3/17/2005, you wrote: >If "gook" as applied to Filipinos or other foreigners derives from >"goo-goo", we'd expect the pronunciation /guk/ (rhymes with "duke"), and >this is indeed what all the dictionaries give. But other derogatory >senses of "gook" have apparently been pronounced /gUk/ (rhymes with >"book"). MW3 shows both /gUk/ and /guk/ for "gook" in senses "native", "glop" (sense like "book gook" not shown). If I were to hypothesize that "gook" = "native" was usually /gUk/ before WW II, would there be any convincing contrary evidence available to put me in my place? -- Doug Wilson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 18 03:09:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:09:33 -0500 Subject: twat+oogle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:27 PM -0500 3/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've never heard it and, fortunately, never used it, either. As a >child, I would "read" words that I didn't know by breaking them apart >into pieces that I could, to a certain extent, understand. As a >consequence, I spent much time vaguely wondering what >"[[sun][dries]]" were. Neither other kids nor even adults seemed to >know. > >-Wilson And the reverse eggcorn is also possible: why do they charge so much for those sundried ['s^ndri:d] tomatoes anyway? Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 18 03:10:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:10:46 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <33870.69.142.143.59.1111113106.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den Bark >>(1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as synonymous >>with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." > >There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s >with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and >Kalamazoo. Lest we forget--Azusa and Cucamonga, those California joke towns. L > The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 >Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One of >the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The Ghost >That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe that >disbanded in Peoria." > > >--Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 03:17:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:17:13 -0500 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know that feeling only too well. Once, I was chatting with a younger colleague about cool places to hang out. I told him that there was a place in town so hip that, on its oldies jukebox, it had the original *black-American* version of "I'm Into Something Good" and not the years-later Brit cover by Herman & The Hermits and awaited his amazed reaction. When his only response was "Uh-huh," it suddenly struck me that this kid's parents probably didn't meet till a couple of years after the time period that I was discussing. Hence, he had no clue as to what I was babbling about. Now I let quarter-century-old children tell *me* what's fresh. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." > >It has come to this.... > >JL > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill >wrote: > >>ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. >> >>Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: >> >>FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >>of past >>Paul McEnroe; >>23 July 1989 p. 01A >>"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >>meeting. " > >Nexis has it from 1983: > >----- >Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? >Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 > >Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that >contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues >about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and >discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a >come-to-Jesus meeting here." >----- > >See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", >though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: > >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 > > >--Ben Zimmer > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 18 03:39:53 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:39:53 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050318030843.61871.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." Maybe. Is "goog" attested? >"In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I >heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't >believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever >prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? Here is some suggestive negative evidence. Words spelled "-ook" are usually pronounced with /U/. In fact we know that "gook" /gUk/ existed way back. If one desired to represent /guk/, never having seen it in print, would he write "gook"? Maybe. But somebody else would write "guke", probably, or at least [e.g., in "American Speech"] append a pronunciation note like <>. Where is "guke"? Where is the early pronunciation note? There may also have been free alternation [is that the right term?] like with "hoof" (/huf/ or /hUf/). -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 03:53:27 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:53:27 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection Message-ID: "Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles "Good-Time Charlie" Brown. This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 03:54:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:54:51 -0800 Subject: "come-to-Jesus meeting" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Wilson, you gotta fight for your right to party ! If the 'snappers scorn you for living in the past, it's 'cause there ain't nothin' goin' on in the present ! Me, I'm going to put "The Flyin' Purple People Eater" on the hi-fi, watch "And God Created Woman" one more time, and finish up with a tape of Don Larson's perfect game.. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that feeling only too well. Once, I was chatting with a younger colleague about cool places to hang out. I told him that there was a place in town so hip that, on its oldies jukebox, it had the original *black-American* version of "I'm Into Something Good" and not the years-later Brit cover by Herman & The Hermits and awaited his amazed reaction. When his only response was "Uh-huh," it suddenly struck me that this kid's parents probably didn't meet till a couple of years after the time period that I was discussing. Hence, he had no clue as to what I was babbling about. Now I let quarter-century-old children tell *me* what's fresh. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Make that "more than twenty and probably a generation." > >It has come to this.... > >JL > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: "come-to-Jesus meeting" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 14:50:49 -0600, Mullins, Bill >wrote: > >>ProQuest Hist Newspapers has a 12/2000 NYT example. >> >>Factiva has numerous examples, the earliest being: >> >>FATAL NEGLECT Terri Rahn / To keep her kids, she tries to end patterns >>of past >>Paul McEnroe; >>23 July 1989 p. 01A >>"Crossing her means facing her wrath in what she calls a "Come to Jesus" >>meeting. " > >Nexis has it from 1983: > >----- >Can Don Lennox Save Harvester? >Business Week, August 15, 1983, p. 80 > >Lennox insists that he pushes his subordinates to express opinions that >contradict his own. "There have been major disagreements on some issues >about what should be done," he says. "I encourage people to disagree and >discuss their viewpoints. On the other hand," he adds, "I'm not running a >come-to-Jesus meeting here." >----- > >See also Wendalyn Nichols' discussion on "The Mavens' Word of the Day", >though she was unable to trace the expression back very far: > >http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001218 > > >--Ben Zimmer > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 04:21:01 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:21:01 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Goog" is attested in HDAS (s.v. "gook"). I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing militating against this spelling is that it could represent the sound in "cuke" cucumber.) How far back is "way back" for / gUk / ? "Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, right ? Do we know the usu. early pronun. of "gook" (blockhead) ? Do we even know its ety.? Cf. "goop" and "goopy," both fr. the same era, both pronun. solely with / u /, so far as I know. You'll have to search for early indications of the pronun. of "gook" (native). I don't know just when it first appeared in a standard dictionary, or whether a pronun. ever appeared in AS. The burden of proof is on the argument that for some unkn. reason the most freq. pronun. of "gook" (native) has swung from / gUk / to / guk / . Why should the proportions have been significantly different in the past ? And why should the spelling "gook" have been assoc. with the sound of "book," etc., rather than that of "spook" ? Am no longer sure of the technical nuances of "free variation." I don;t think it's strictly "free" if there's a regional pattern to be found. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hmmmmm. Not sure. All we have, I think, is "googoo / gugu" > "goog" > "gook." Maybe. Is "goog" attested? >"In my experience, / guk / is by far the most freq. pronun. (Am sure I >heard / gUk / only once or twice, / guk / a hundred times. And I don't >believe i"ve ever heard / gUk / on TV or in movies. If / gUk / was ever >prevalent, surely there would be more and better evidence of it ? Here is some suggestive negative evidence. Words spelled "-ook" are usually pronounced with /U/. In fact we know that "gook" /gUk/ existed way back. If one desired to represent /guk/, never having seen it in print, would he write "gook"? Maybe. But somebody else would write "guke", probably, or at least [e.g., in "American Speech"] append a pronunciation note like <[rhymes with "spook"]>>. Where is "guke"? Where is the early pronunciation note? There may also have been free alternation [is that the right term?] like with "hoof" (/huf/ or /hUf/). -- Doug Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 04:22:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:22:50 -0800 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: More overcorrection ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles "Good-Time Charlie" Brown. This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 04:48:48 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:48:48 -0500 Subject: Is there such a phenomenon as "undercorrection/hypocorrection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of you may be familiar with the phrase, "Shuckin' 'n' jivin'." The first time that I heard this was on a record by the St. Louis bluesman, Jimmy McCracklin (and yes, his name is pronounced "Jimmy Mack Cracklin), some time in the '50's. He spoke the phrase as, "jes' a-shuckin' an' a-jivin'." Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the song, so I can't track down the exact date of publication. I also once heard someone say, "She was hidin' in the closet, jes' a-gigglin'!" -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as > "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>From Hee-Haw >Roy Clark: "I'm a-pickin' . . ." >Buck Owens: ". . . and I'm a-grinnin'". > >Also heard: Hootin' and a-hollerin'. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:00 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> I can't speak for Ohio, but I hear "a-" prefixin' almost >> daily here in East Tennessee. Hardly ever from college >> students, though. And I don't believ I've ever seen it in a >> freshman theme. >> >> JL >> >> Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: Re: Is there such a phenomenon as >> "undercorrection/hypocorrection? >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------------- >> >> Isn't "a-screamin and a-hollerin" just a set phrase? The >> interviewee then just reversed the internal order of this >> phrase for emphasis. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Questioning in Seattle >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society >> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Beverly Flanigan >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------- >> --- >> >> By the way, for those of you who think a-prefixing is dead, >> or at least isn't used in Ohio, I heard a great example on >> local radio this morning. >> Concerning a murder about 30 miles from here, in southeastern >> Ohio, the interviewee said "They were a-screamin' and >> a-hollerin', and a-hollerin' and a-screamin'"--four attestations! >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 05:11:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:11:10 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >JL I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." -Wilson Gray >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 05:40:19 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:40:19 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:02:03 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:45:29 -0800, Jonathan Lighter >>wrote: >> >>>The phrase must be considerably older in showbiz. Berrey & Van Den >>>Bark (1942) don't list this phrase, but they do offer "Peoria" as >>>synonymous with "An imaginary [sic] 'hick' town." >> >>There are a number of Proquest cites from the late '20s and early '30s >>with Peoria as a "joke town" on the vaudeville circuit, like Kokomo and >>Kalamazoo. The earliest jokey reference I can find is from the 1904 >>Broadway musical comedy "Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!!" starring Eddie Foy. One >>of the songs (music by Jean Schwartz, lyrics by William Jerome) is "The >>Ghost That Never Walked," with the refrain, "I'm the ghost of a troupe >>that disbanded in Peoria." > >More hearty thanks, my man! This sort of cite is undoubtedly relevant. >Two or three more would be very good. Here are some references to the song from the 1904 play: ----- New York Times, Apr 13, 1904, p. 9 That one about the ghost of a troup that was stranded at Peoria had a weird fascination of its own and a lilt that lingers long in the memory. ----- Washington Post, Dec 25, 1904, p. A8 They backed away from the desk, took the center of the floor, and warbled to Mulcahy about the ghost of the man who was stranded with a troupe in Peoria. ----- New York Times, Aug 25, 1918, p. 32 For it developed that Miss Dickson and Martin Brown ... had acted together at one time in a one-night troupe that was stranded, not in Peoria, but Rat Portage, Mich. ----- New York Times, Mar 27, 1932, p. X3 The late Eddie Foy used to sing, in melancholy accents, a ditty in which he proclaimed hiimself to be "the ghost of a troupe that was stranded in Peoria." As a result that shy municipality practically sprang into comic significance akin to that enjoyed by such cultural centres as Kokomo, Kalamazoo and Ypsilanti. It was an unofficial "joke town." ----- Another Broadway play, "Lightnin'" (opened 1918), poked fun at Peoria in a racy courtroom scene... ----- Washington Post, Jan 29, 1918, p. 9 It offers a really delightful flirtation between the presiding judge of a Reno court and a buxom applicant for divorce who had married her vaudeville partner in Peoria at the end of a rainy week that got on her nerves. ----- Washington Post, Jan 13, 1924, p. AA6 Why Peoria is "kidded" in "Lightnin';" town was chosen by Frank Bacon out of compliment to Robert G. Ingersoll. Many of those who have witnessed "Lightnin" may wonder just why it was that Frank Bacon and Winchell Smith happened to use the name of Peoria in the courtroom scene: for to those who have seen this quaintly amusing comedy, it will be recalled that in the Reno courtroom, Bessie Bacon, portraying a vaudeville actress, is being questioned in her divorce action and is asked: "Where were you married?" "Peoria," she answers. "I didn't get that," counters the judge. "Peoria," she repeats; and then with some hesitation adds, "It's a place." "Were you living in Peoria?" "I should say not! -- we were playing there. We were partners, doing a dancing act." "Then why did you marry him?" "That's hard to explain," she falters. "You see, we were in Peoria -- and we were partners -- and -- and -- it rained all week." Because of this bit of dialogue ... there are some who have imagined that Bacon or Smith played the town at some time during their theatrical journeyings, and as a result of some incident, disagreeable or otherwise, seized this occasion to take a fling at the town. ... At a dinner tendered the two Lightnin' Bills by the mayor and other prominent officials and citizens of Peoria, Mr. Bacon explained that no slam at the city was intended, but that, on the contrary, it was selected out of compliment to Mr. Ingersoll, its distinguished citizen. ----- The courtroom scene in "Lightnin'" was invoked when a contributor to the Chicago Tribune column "A Line O' Type Or Two" wanted to ridicule a pompous correspondent who signed off as "Wally from Peoria": ----- Chicago Tribune, Jun 23, 1924, p. 8 But is Peoria to Blame? R.H.L.: How amazingly old is Wally from Peoria, and how unutterably dull must be an intelligentsia that cannot appreciate Nietzsche and Dumas, James Stevens and Lewis Carroll, Lafcadio Hearn and The Duchess! ... I think it would be well to omit Peoria in one's travels. Pansy. ----- Chicago Tribune, Jul 31, 1926, p. 4 Hasn't Peoria Lived That Down Yet? Dick: Whereinell is this Peoria that this fellow Wally is so chesty about? The only time I recall hearing it mentioned was in Frank Bacon's play "Lightnin'" during the court scene when, in reply to the judge's query as to how she happened to marry, the weeping divorcee gave the reason: "Well, I had to spend the week in Peoria-- and it was raining!" Tobey, the Village Shyster. ----- Here are the Internet Broadway Database entries for the two plays in question: http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=5863 http://www.ibdb.com/production.asp?ID=8725 --Ben Zimmer From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Mar 18 09:10:02 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:10:02 -0000 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" In-Reply-To: <20050318030203.8665.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't forget the Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Bierce. Last sentence of the entry under "Dullard": "The intellectual centre of the race is somewhere about Peoria, Illinois, but the New England Dullard is the most shockingly moral." Peoria's reputation is obviously of some antiquity. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Mar 18 10:12:00 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:12:00 EST Subject: Camp Phrases (1861); City Nicknames (1889) Message-ID: A few notes before another day of my life wasted on parking tickets...OT: I had dinner at (Todd) English Is Italian (Third Avenue and 49th Street) last night. They kept bringing courses--$39 prix fixe. I had to tell the wait-person that I wasn't expecting my ex-wife, Kirstie Alley. ... LOS ANGELES TIMES--The 1969 additions appear to be Sept.-December. Not much movement here in about five months. Very frustrating. ... CHICAGO TRIBUNE--It looks like a few years in the 1850s and 1860s were added, and then it jumps to 1890. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) _CAMP PHRASES._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=581847592&SrchMode=1&sid=56&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111138126&clientI d=65882) Chicago Tribune (1860-1872). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 11, 1861. p. 0_2 (1 page) ... CAMP PHRASES. An enterprising publisher might make money by getting up a camp dictionary, for the benefit of those who visit the army, and are mystified by the extraordinary words and phrases used. The word "arms" has been distorted into "umm," brought forcibly forth like the last groan of a dying cat; and in place of "march" we hear "utch." A tent is jocularly termed "the canvas," a sword is a "toad sticker," and any of the altered patterns of muskets are known as "howitzers." Mess beef is "salt horse," coffee is "boiled rye," vegetables are "cow feed," and butter "strong grease." "Bully" is the highest terms of commendation, while dissent is expressed in the remark, "I don't see it." Almost every regiment has its nickname, and few officers or privates receive their legal appellations or titles when spoken of in their absence. The Massachusetts men have christened their Governor, nor have his "military family" escaped their _nome-de-guerre_, one or two of which are decidedly uncomplimentary, through laugh-provoking. ... (HDAS has 1874 for "howitzer"--ed.) ... ... _NICKNAMES OF CITIES.; What You May Call a Place by When You Do Not Want to Call It by Its Name. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=41&did=563464792&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111139359& clientId=65882) Boston Daily Globe (1872-1960). Boston, Mass.: Aug 25, 1889. p. 17 (1 page) ... Aberdeen, Scotland, Granite City. Alexandria, Egypt, Delta City. Akron, O., Summit CIty. Athens, Greece, City of the Violet Crown. Baltimore, Md., Monumental City. Birmingham, O., Bran Town. Boston, Mass., Puritan City; Modern Athens; Hub of the Universe; City of Notions; Athens of America; The Hub. Brooklyn, N.Y., City of Churches. Buffalo, N.Y., Queen City of the Lakes. Baalbec, Syria, City of the Sun. Cairo, Egypt, City of Victory. Cincinnati, O., Queen City; Porkoplis; Queen of the West; Paris of America. Chicago, Ill., Garden City. Cleveland, O., Forest City. Cork, Ire., Dirsh-ren City. Dayton, O., Gem City. Detroit, Mich., City of the Straits. Edinburgh, Scot., Maiden Town; Northern Athens; Modern Athens; Athens of the North. Gibraltar, Key of the Mediterranean. Hannibal, Mo., Bluff City. Havanna, Cuba, Pearl of the Antilles. Indianapolis, Ind., Railroad City. Jerusalem, Palestine, City of Peace; City of the Great King. Keokuk, Iowa, Gate City. Louisville, Ky., Falls City. Limerick, Ire., City of the Violated Treaty. Lowell, Mass., City of Spindles; Manchester of America. London, England, City of Masts; Modern Babylon. Lynchburg, Va., Hill City. Milan, Italy, Little Paris. Nashville, Tenn., City of Rocks. New Haven, Conn., City of Elms. New Orleans, La., Crescent City. New York, N.Y., Gotham; Empire City; Metropolitan City. Philadelphia, Penn., Quaker City; City of Brotherly Love; City of Homes. Pittsburg, Penn., Iron City; Smoky City; Birmingham of America. Portland, Me., Forest City. Paterson, N.J., Lyons of America. Rome, Italy, Eternal City; Nameless City; Queen of Cities; Seven Hilled City; Mistress of the World. Rochester, N.Y., Flour City. St. Louis, Mo., Mound City. San Francisco, Cal., Golden City. Salem, Mass., City of Peace. Salt Lake City, Utah, City of the Saints. Springfield, Ill., Flower City. Streator, Ill., City of the Woods. Sodom and Gomorrah, Cities of the Plain. Toledo, O., Corn City. Venice, Italy, Bride of the Sea. Washington, D.C., City of Magnificent Distances. Winnipeg, Man., Gate City of the Northwest. Xenia, O., Twine City. Zanesville, O., City of Natural Advantages. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 12:07:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:07:07 -0800 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be influenced by the surname "Ballard." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: More overcorrection ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >JL I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." -Wilson Gray >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >-Wilson Gray > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 18 13:01:58 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:01:58 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a CT town/village near Willimantic): >Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >against a window in the >European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >made to Officer Flynn who brought him >before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >appealed from this decision and will await in >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 13:48:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:48:24 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FWIW, I can remember when "the cooler" was a common slang term for gaol. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Michael McKernan >Subject: Refrigerator = jail? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a >CT town/village near Willimantic): > >>Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >>against a window in the >>European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >>made to Officer Flynn who brought him >>before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >>appealed from this decision and will await in > >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. > >Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 13:54:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:54:13 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Cf. syn. "cooler." JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Refrigerator = jail? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a CT town/village near Willimantic): >Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >against a window in the >European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >made to Officer Flynn who brought him >before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >appealed from this decision and will await in >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at the May term. Michael McKernan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Mar 18 13:58:49 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:58:49 +0000 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > >JL > > > And 'ice-box'. JG From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 18 14:07:13 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:07:13 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Cf. syn. "cooler." > >JL Synonymy rehabilitated! I assumed cooler would be too obvious to need mention. This'll teach me a lesson, I hope. With my usual mix of ignorance and curiousity, I wonder how common the specific use of refrigerator = jail has been, and when. Michael McKernan From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 14:21:15 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:21:15 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in the 19th century? --- Jonathon Green wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > > > >JL > > > > > > > And 'ice-box'. > > JG > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 14:29:56 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:29:56 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The OED implies yes. JL James Smith wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Smith Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in the 19th century? --- Jonathon Green wrote: > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > >Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Cf. syn. "cooler." > > > >JL > > > > > > > And 'ice-box'. > > JG > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Mar 18 14:45:53 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:45:53 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other examples of jocular hypercorrection. dInIs >FWIW, I can remember when "the cooler" was a common slang term for gaol. > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Michael McKernan >>Subject: Refrigerator = jail? >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Came across this in the Willimantic Chronicle, Connecticut; (Brooklyn is a >>CT town/village near Willimantic): >> >>>Mar. 14, 1883: A stranger named Patrick Grady in a drunken condition fell >>>against a window in the >>>European house Monday and refused to pay for the damage. Complaint was >>>made to Officer Flynn who brought him >>>before Justice Sumner where a fine of $2 and cost were imposed. He >>>appealed from this decision and will await in >> >the Brooklyn refrigerator judgement from the superior court at >>the May term. >> >>Michael McKernan From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Mar 18 14:47:35 2005 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:47:35 -0600 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: intenstinal fortitude On 3/18/05 8:45 AM, "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other > examples of jocular hypercorrection. > > dInIs > > From einstein at FROGNET.NET Fri Mar 18 15:34:54 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 10:34:54 -0500 Subject: "Will it play in Peoria?" Message-ID: Not to mention Podunk..and Chelm! From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 18 16:01:49 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:01:49 -0500 Subject: Bartendresses Message-ID: Of course there is the old gag about the termite who sits down and asks, "Where is the bar tender?" And then, of course, there is the story of the cannibal who had a stomach ache who went to the doctor. The doctor asked him what he had recently eaten, and after he said a missionary, an anthropologist, a tourist and the woman who tended bar at the local pub the doctor told him that he knew his problem which was the bar bitch you ate. The common term in the Cleveland, Ohio area is server which like mail carrier solves the problem entirely since it is sex neutral as is bar tender. Many years ago in recognition of this problem I wrote two gags. I decided to call a mailbox a contradiction and a mailman a redundancy. For reasons which are beyond me these terms never took off but every once in awhile I attempt to introduce a slang term into my local dialect. My most successful has been rat killer for artificial sweetener on the ground that when given to rats it causes cancer. This one I think has the possibility of taking off if only a few of you will use it whenever you ask for artificial sweetener. Best, Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "paulzjoh" To: Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Bartendresses > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: paulzjoh > Subject: Re: Bartendresses > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Don't forget "bustroid" >> >>I don't know which I find more offensive, this or "waitron." >> >>JL >> >> >>"Mullins, Bill" wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail >>header ----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Mullins, Bill" >>Subject: Re: Bartendresses >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've heard "waitstaff" as a catch-all unisex term for waiters, >>waitresses, bartenders, etc. >> >> >> >> >>>BARTENDRESSES >>> >>>>From the "Ardent Spirits" newletter by Gary Regan: >>> >>> >>>Barmaids, Bartendresses, and Bar Bitches >>> >>>Our friend, Claudia C. F. Craig caused some controversy when, >>>as we reported in the last issue of Ardent Spirits, she wrote >>>to say that she was in favor of calling females who work >>>behind the stick "barmaids," as opposed to bartenders. >>>Not one of our readers who wrote in to comment agreed with >>>Claudia. Mind you, Claudia's used to that . . . >>> >>>First off we should explain the Bar Bitch term lest you're >>>getting irate: Gary was tending bar at a charity function at >>>Painter's Tavern in Cornwall-on-Hudson recently when he found >>>himself in the weeds in a big way. He looked to Pete >>>Buttiglieri, his buddy, and one of the owners of Painter's, >>>for help, and Pete dutifully went to work, grabbing a tray >>>full of clean glasses from the kitchen, and re-stocking the >>>glass shelves. He rolled his eyes at Gary, and muttered, >>>"Now that I'm officially your bar bitch . . . " So, we don't >>>think that Bar Bitch is a suitable term to use when referring >>>to a female bartender, but we do believe that it suits Peter to a T. >>> >>>Here's a look at what some of you wrote on the subject of barmaids: >>> >>>>From Philip Duff, Holland: >>> >>>"I'd go for bartender to describe a, er, bartender of either >>>gender. As well as being unisex, it also fits well with the >>>profession of "tending bar", and is universally understood, >>>something that can't be said for "barkeeper"(most Germanic >>>countries). To me personally, having lived in the UK, >>>"barman" or "barmaid" tends to be used to describe a fairly >>>untrained pub-standard bar worker, whereas "bartender" always >>>seemed to indicate a trained professional." >>> >>>Any bartenders in the U.K. care to comment? >>> >>>Nancy A. Breslow had pretty strong views on this subject, >>>too. Here's what she had to say: >>> >>>"Gary and Mardee: The idea of a female bartender being >>>called anything but a BARTENDER gives me the dry-heaves. If >>>I tend bar, I do the same job whether I've got the inny or >>>outy equipment between my legs. I don't care if some men >>>pine for the "Fly me" days; that's their problem. Would >>>Claudia want a woman flying the plane to be called a >>>pilotess? Ugh. From "maid" it's only a step or two to >>>"wench" and anyone calls me that is begging for a black eye. -Nancy- >>> >>>And speaking of wenches, Deven Black, an old friend, and >>>former manager of the North Star Pub in Manhattan wrote, >>>"Personally, I prefer serving wench." Don't get too upset at >>>Deven, we know him well enough to tell you for sure that >>>Deven had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote that >>>one. If he was even half-way serious we're also sure that >>>Jill, his ever patient wife, would whip him soundly. >>> >>>A certain woman by the name of Brenda wrote to say that she >>>didn't mind being called a bartender, a barmaid, or even >>>"sweety hon," but she added that her customers seldom had to >>>call her anything at all since she gets the drinks out before >>>they have to ask. And finally, a reader who signed his >>>e-mail "Jeffrey" >>>suggested that we start using the word "bartendress" when >>>referring to female bartenders. >>> >>>The vast majority of you, though, think that "bartender" is a >>>good unisex term that should be employed when referring to >>>bartenders of either sex. Sorry, Claudia. >>> >>> >>> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >> >> From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 18 16:12:09 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:12:09 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Which brings up the old story about Dizzy Dean who was once reputed to have said when he broadcast Cardinal games something like, "The reason that ... is so good is that he has guts. Now I know that some of you school marms out there may not like my use of the word 'guts' so I will put it in other terms. The reason ... is so good is because he has testicle fortitude." Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gordon" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Matthew Gordon > Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > intenstinal fortitude > > > On 3/18/05 8:45 AM, "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > >> Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other >> examples of jocular hypercorrection. >> >> dInIs >> >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 18 19:06:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:06:39 -0500 Subject: More overcorrection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmm. That's a clear possibility in my case, too. At the time when I opened foot and inserted mouth, Hank *Ballard* & The Midnighters, who popularized "work" as a slang synonym for "engage in sexual intercourse," were one of the top R&B singing groups. You never can tell, I guess. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. >I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be >influenced by the surname "Ballard." > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: More overcorrection >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: More overcorrection >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. >> >>JL > >I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) > >But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is >otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even >things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." > >-Wilson Gray > >>Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: More overcorrection >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles >>"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. >> >>This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in >>writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of >>Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept >>my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 19:11:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? Message-ID: Dennis Preston: > >Is this "jocular hypercorrection" from 'cooler'? Do we have other >examples of jocular hypercorrection. Matthew Gordon: > > intenstinal fortitude Page Stephens: > >Which brings up the old story about Dizzy Dean who was once reputed to >have said when he broadcast Cardinal games something like, "The reason >that ... is so good is that he has guts. Now I know that some of you >school marms out there may not like my use of the word 'guts' so I will >put it in other terms. The reason ... is so good is because he has >testicle fortitude." There was a long thread here recently on intestinal/testicular fortitude , but the Dizzy Dean anecdote never came up. Dickson's Baseball Dictionary has the anecdote (with "testicle fortitude"), and it's mentioned here: http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/features/experts/09_20_00.stm --Ben Zimmer From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 20:01:52 2005 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:01:52 -0800 Subject: Refrigerator = jail? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Actually, I should have known this. I was thinking too small. Railroad cars cooled by ice, "iceboxes on wheels", were known as refigerator cars at least as far back as the 1850's. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > The OED implies yes. > > JL > > James Smith wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: Refrigerator = jail? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So ice-boxes were commonly called refrigerators in > the > 19th century? James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Fri Mar 18 20:07:27 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:07:27 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: At the Straight Dope, someone asked recently about the tip=T.I.P. (to insure promptness) origin. We took care of that one easily. But, as an aside, I found 10 September 1895 _Los Angeles Times_ pg 6 >>A recently-published article on the derivation of the word "fad" speaks of it as being of Welsh origin, giving "ffedd" as the root word. A correspondent of the New York Tribune writes on the subject: The word 'fad' is a manufactured word, not given by Worcester. It has been in use only a short time, comparatively, and, while it may be derived from the Welsh, it is more probable that it is made from the initial letters of the words 'for a day.' The word 'tip' orginated, it is said, in that way. The story goes that in an old-time English tavern a receptacle for small coin was placed in a conspicuous place over which appeared the legend, 'to insure promptness.' Whatever was placed in the box was given to the servants. Other taverns followed the example, and soon the three words were written, "T.I.P.," everybody knowing what they indicated. Then the punctuation marks were dropped, and the word 'tip' was born. 'Fad' and 'tip' are of the same class and kind."<< Are there earlier print evidences of false acronymic origins? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Fri Mar 18 20:33:11 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:33:11 -0500 Subject: "Rendering" of suspects Message-ID: Back in Oct. 2002, the "rendition" of terrorism suspects first came up on the list: ----- http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210C&L=ads-l&P=R7146 Thomas Joyce: >Rendition is the euphemism for a process by which a terrorism >suspect is given over to the custody of another country for >detention and interrogation free from American legal restrictions. >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Larry Horn: >I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to >"render", but this one doesn't (yet). Thomas Joyce: >I suppose it must be so. But if anybody starts talking about >rendering a suspect, I will have visions of boiling vats. ----- Well, the "rendering" of suspects has already entered public discourse, and it should probably receive some WOTY consideration (at least for euphemism of the year): ----- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050317-4.html Press Briefing by Scott McClellan, March 17, 2005 Q Are these reports wrong, or does he not believe that there's torture going on in these countries where these prisoners are being rendered back to? MR. McCLELLAN: When people are rendered to another country, we seek assurances that they won't be tortured. When we return known terrorists to their countries of origin, or we render people to countries, we want to have assurances that they're not going to be tortured, because that's a value that we hold very dearly. ... But we do take very seriously what our obligations are, and we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ... Q Scott, on renditions, has the United States ever rendered prisoners to countries other than their country of origin? MR. McCLELLAN: Ken, I'm not going to get into talking about any specific matters, and that would be getting into talking about specific matters. But I think I addressed that question earlier when I said that we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ----- A swing through Nexis suggests that "rendering" has been used by the intelligence community at least since 9/11, though it took some investigative reporting by the Washington Post in 2002 and 2004 for the term to become widely known. The cites below trace a shift in usage: "render (someone) to justice" > "render (someone) to a third country" > "render (someone)". ----- Boston Globe, October 7, 2001, p. A1 "These are not abductions, these are renditions," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "If they are wanted by foreign governments and there is concern that they are involved in terrorist activities, the idea is to render them to justice." ----- Washington Post, March 11, 2002, p. A1 Between 1993 and 1999, terrorism suspects also were rendered to the United States from Nigeria, the Philippines, Kenya and South Africa in operations acknowledged by U.S. officials. ... Even when local intelligence agents are involved, diplomats said it is preferable to render a suspect secretly because it prevents lengthy court battles and minimizes publicity that could tip off the detainee's associates. Rendering suspects to a third country, particularly Muslim nations such as Egypt or Jordan, also helps to defuse domestic political concerns in predominantly Muslim nations such as Indonesia, the diplomats said. ----- Washington Post, December 26, 2002, p. A1 Those who cooperate are rewarded with creature comforts, interrogators whose methods include feigned friendship, respect, cultural sensitivity and, in some cases, money. Some who do not cooperate are turned over -- "rendered," in official parlance -- to foreign intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human rights organizations. ... Some officials estimated that fewer than 100 captives have been rendered to third countries. ... The CIA's participation in the interrogation of rendered terrorist suspects varies from country to country. ----- Columbus Dispatch (Ohio), January 19, 2003, p. 4C In the CIA's euphemistic parlance, captives are "rendered" into foreign hands, and these "extraordinary renditions" are said to give the CIA "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspects. ----- Washington Post, July 29, 2004, p. A8 The exact number of people "rendered" or moved to foreign countries with U.S. assistance is unknown, but two cases have received widespread publicity. ----- Washington Post, December 27, 2004, p. A1 Ahmed Agiza was convicted by Egypt's Supreme Military Court of terrorism-related charges; Muhammad Zery was set free. Both say they were tortured while in Egyptian custody. Sweden has opened an investigation into the decision to allow them to be rendered. ----- Los Angeles Times, January 13, 2005, p. 1 "It's a growth industry," said a recently retired CIA clandestine officer who worked on several "renditions" in the Arab world. "We rendered a lot of people to Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis in particular.... Ultimately, the agency just wants these people to disappear forever." ----- New York Times, February 11, 2005, p. 25 As Ms. Mayer pointed out: "Terrorism suspects in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Middle East have often been abducted by hooded or masked American agents, then forced onto a Gulfstream V jet, like the one described by Arar. ... Upon arriving in foreign countries, rendered suspects often vanish. Detainees are not provided with lawyers, and many families are not informed of their whereabouts." ----- New York Times, February 18, 2005, p. 27 Rendition most commonly refers to the extrajudicial transfer of individuals from a foreign country to the United States for the purpose of answering criminal charges. Think, for example, of a drug kingpin who is abducted in Colombia and brought to the U.S. to stand trial for trafficking. The defendant is said to have been "rendered" to justice in the U.S. ----- Boston Globe, March 2, 2005, A1 A State Department translator testified on Jan. 13 that US officials had tried to pressure the country's former president into skipping a trial and "rendering" Bashir to US officials, perhaps to be sent to a third country where torture is allowed. ----- New York Times, March 6, 2005 p. 1 In an interview, the senior official defended renditions as one among several important tools in counterterrorism efforts. "The intelligence obtained by those rendered, detained and interrogated have disrupted terrorist operations," the official said. "It has saved lives in the United States and abroad, and it has resulted in the capture of other terrorists." ----- Washington Post, March 9, 2005, A21 Rendition is the CIA's antiseptic term for its practice of sending captured terrorist suspects to other countries for interrogation. Because some of those countries torture prisoners -- and because some of the suspected terrorists "rendered" by the CIA say they were in fact tortured -- the debate has tended to lump rendition and torture together. ----- Boston Globe, March 12, 2005, p. A11 The clandestine nature of "torture outsourcing" makes it difficult to know the total numbers of those rendered by the Bush administration. ----- Washington Post, March 17, 2005, A1 Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales said in an interview last week that, once a transfer occurs, "we can't fully control what that country might do. We obviously expect a country to whom we have rendered a detainee to comply with their representations to us. If you're asking me 'Does a country always comply?,' I don't have an answer to that." ----- --Ben Zimmer From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 18 21:23:03 2005 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:23:03 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition Message-ID: Two responses to my observation of *change up*: ================= I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be used with the same meaning in your example? ================= Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, what do they know?) Peter Mc. ================= *Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, in fact, when I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the (interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* 'change it into a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for clarification, though. To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* could be used for money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. *Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, it's not in my dialect. Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 18 22:02:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:02:10 -0800 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking acronymically as early as 1895. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the Straight Dope, someone asked recently about the tip=3DT.I.P. (to = insure promptness) origin. We took care of that one easily. But, as an = aside, I found=20 10 September 1895 _Los Angeles Times_ pg 6 >>A recently-published article on the derivation of the word "fad" = speaks of it as being of Welsh origin, giving "ffedd" as the root word. = A correspondent of the New York Tribune writes on the subject: The word = 'fad' is a manufactured word, not given by Worcester. It has been in = use only a short time, comparatively, and, while it may be derived from = the Welsh, it is more probable that it is made from the initial letters = of the words 'for a day.' The word 'tip' orginated, it is said, in that = way. The story goes that in an old-time English tavern a receptacle for = small coin was placed in a conspicuous place over which appeared the = legend, 'to insure promptness.' Whatever was placed in the box was = given to the servants. Other taverns followed the example, and soon the = three words were written, "T.I.P.," everybody knowing what they = indicated. Then the punctuation marks were dropped, and the word 'tip' = was born. 'Fad' and 'tip' are of the same class and kind."<< Are there earlier print evidences of false acronymic origins?=20 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Mar 18 22:43:29 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:43:29 -0600 Subject: [SLANG:53] Panna Message-ID: This may or may not help. I did some googling and found that panna is not only a "nutmeg" but also soccer as played on city squares and involving individual tricks/stunts. The more skill in these stunts, the greater the respect won. Now, there's a famous Thai stuntman named Panna Rittikrai, and I suppose that the youngsters who see him on film were inspired to take his name as symbolizing a supreme stunt--humiliating the opponent by dribbling the ball through his legs. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: slang at leicester.ac.uk on behalf of Paul Heacock > Reply To: slang at leicester.ac.uk > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:06 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list SLANG > Subject: [SLANG:53] Re: Panna > > I asked a soccer-savvy American friend if he's ever heard of the term > "panna," and he hadn't. When I told him what it meant, he said, "Oh, a > nutmeg." He thought panna sounded Spanish or Italian, and said he'd ask > some Spanish-speaking footballers about it. I'll report back if I hear > anything more. > > Cheers > Paul > > Paul Heacock > ELT Electronic Publishing & Publishing Systems Manager > Cambridge University Press > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 00:43:23 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <20050318220210.68932.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >acronymically as early as 1895. I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far behind? -- Doug Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 00:48:54 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:48:54 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 /-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") has a /k/. Of the 16 I can think of with the vowel of "good," 11 have a /k/. That being so, I wonder why it never occurred to me that "gook" (a word only known to me as an ethnic slur from the VietNam days) would be pronounced as anything but /guk/, like "spook." A. Murie From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 19 01:00:34 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:00:34 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: Sorry, Doug. I read your previous message, but didn't include it. sam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious > acronym > much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): If there > are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far behind? > > -- Doug Wilson > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 01:25:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:25:35 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps Message-ID: Get this: "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:05:28 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:05:28 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >has a /k/. How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is certainly so analyzable. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 02:19:10 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:19:10 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >has a /k/. How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is certainly so analyzable. Larry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:39:20 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:39:20 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition In-Reply-To: <1111180983.423b46b7ae474@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. The announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say something like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what is a change up and how might it fit into this discussion? JCS Damien Hall writes: > Two responses to my observation of *change up*: > > ================= > > I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting > the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't > work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming > particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be > used with the same meaning in your example? > > ================= > > Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I > usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in > some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a > black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, > what do they know?) > > Peter Mc. > > ================= > > *Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, in fact, when > I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the > (interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* 'change it into > a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for > clarification, though. > > To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* could be used for > money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the > person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. > *Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, it's not in my > dialect. > > Damien Hall > University of Pennsylvania > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Sat Mar 19 02:45:11 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:45:11 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Nee=22_=3D?= or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: <20050319012535.29749.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about this as a meaning shift path: nee ('formerly', as in the maiden or previously married name of a woman) > interpreted as 'also known as' (aka) > extended to 'perhaps'? JCS Jonathan Lighter writes: > Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it > was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young > attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 02:57:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:57:59 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: My thinking exactly. It would be interesting to know how widespread this is. WE can hope that it's a personal quirk, though. So far. JL James C Stalker wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James C Stalker Subject: Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22Nee=22_=3D?= or; or perhaps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about this as a meaning shift path: nee ('formerly', as in the maiden or previously married name of a woman) > interpreted as 'also known as' (aka) > extended to 'perhaps'? JCS Jonathan Lighter writes: > Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it > was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young > attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" (Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > JL > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Sat Mar 19 03:32:10 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:32:10 -0500 Subject: social interaction Message-ID: Any idea when the term "social interaction" came into use? A fellow writer wants to use it in a dialog taking place in the 1930s but others think it wasn't yet in use and is a more recent term. Kathy Seal ---- Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: More overcorrection > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hmm. That's a clear possibility in my case, too. At the time when I > opened foot and inserted mouth, Hank *Ballard* & The Midnighters, who > popularized "work" as a slang synonym for "engage in sexual > intercourse," were one of the top R&B singing groups. You never can > tell, I guess. > > -Wilson > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >East Tennessee may have more R's per capita than any other area. > >I've never heard any of your other exx., but "ballard" may be > >influenced by the surname "Ballard." > > > >JL > > > >Wilson Gray wrote: > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender: American Dialect Society > >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >>Subject: Re: More overcorrection > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>I've heard "ballard" several times from white Southerners of varying ages. > >> > >>JL > > > >I recommend that no attempt be made to show them the error of their ways. ;-) > > > >But seriously, folks, why is it that people whose dialect is > >otherwise r-less say things like ballard, jurdge, murch, and even > >things like "such" = "search," but "search" = "such." > > > >-Wilson Gray > > > >>Wilson Gray wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >>Sender: American Dialect Society > >>Poster: Wilson Gray > >>Subject: More overcorrection > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>"Ballards," title of a 1962 album by the Texas bluesman, Charles > >>"Good-Time Charlie" Brown. > >> > >>This particular overcorrection is used in speech as well as in > >>writing. I once advised a friend of mine, likewise a black native of > >>Texas, that the word is [bael at d], not [bael at rd]. I should have kept > >>my advice to myself. Some people you just can't talk to. > >> > >>-Wilson Gray > >> > >> > >>--------------------------------- > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 03:51:59 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:51:59 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050319021910.52821.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:19 PM -0800 3/18/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? I'm claiming "Mook" < "Mookie", not vice versa, but to address the question-- A whole bunch of Mets fans, especially immediately after his (Mookie Wilson's) role in the 1986 Series win (especially hitting that ground ball that rolled through Buckner's legs). A basketball player named Mookie Blaylock, formerly from the U. of Oklahoma and various NBA teams, would also be called "Mook" on occasion, if memory serves. >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 03:57:18 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:57:18 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:39 PM -0500 3/18/05, James C Stalker wrote: >I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. The >announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say something >like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what is a change up >and how might it fit into this discussion? > A slow pitch, released with the same motion as a faster pitch. Crucially, the batter is presumed to be expecting a fastball, and the pitcher "changes up" on him. You color analysts can decide how it fits into the discussion, I'm just the play-by-play guy. Larry > >Damien Hall writes: > >>Two responses to my observation of *change up*: >> >>================= >> >>I wonder if the meanings of "change" (change as in money) is prompting >>the added "up" for clarification. "I'll change some money" wouldn't >>work, would it? It would have to be "exchange". Prefixes becoming >>particles is common. Could "change out" and "change up" could both be >>used with the same meaning in your example? >> >>================= >> >>Well, I "change money" frequently whenever I travel abroad. Though I >>usually avoid patronizing the shadowy characters who accost tourists in >>some countries saying, "Change money? Change money?" I never heard a >>black marketeer offer to "exchange money" or "change up money." (But then, >>what do they know?) >> >>Peter Mc. >> >>================= >> >>*Change* for money works for me too. That's the only thing I say, >>in fact, when >>I mean 'change into a different currency': 'exchange' would prompt the >>(interior) question 'For what', but 'change some money' *means* >>'change it into >>a different currency. I think you're right that the added *up* is for >>clarification, though. >> >>To answer the second question, I don't think that *change out* >>could be used for >>money. *Change up* isn't in my dialect either, but I have never heard the >>person I know who says *change up* for money say *change out* for it. >>*Exchange money* seems slightly more plausible to me but, again, >>it's not in my >>dialect. >> >>Damien Hall >>University of Pennsylvania >> > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 04:04:57 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:04:57 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry ~~~~~~~~~ Yeah, forgot that one. There's also a character named Sookie that I see allusions to on the mystery lit list that I assume is a /u/. I'm sure there are others, too (stook, perhaps, though I think that goes both ways). It wasn't so much the paucity of /k/s in the the FOOD list as the preponderance of /k/s in the GOOD list that surprised me. A From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 19 04:05:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:05:07 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've simply forgotten whatever he had to say. And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether anyone salutes, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 19 04:09:51 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:09:51 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry "Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb." -Wilson From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 04:10:19 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:10:19 -0500 Subject: Pahk the cah in Hahvuhd Yahd (1976); Joe College 1934) Message-ID: More from Harvard. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=496464 Published on Wednesday, April 26, 1978 You Can't Pahk Yah Cah In Hahvahd Yahd, But... Harvard BHCU EXPIRES AUG. 31, 1978 http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=496413 Published on Monday, October 31, 1977 Them Ol' Walking Blues Union Dues By John Sayles Little, Brown, $9.95, 385 pp. (...) But lest you think this is a story of radical baiting in Cambridge, circa 1969--which is easy enough to do--it's not. Sayles has an astoundingly accurate ear for speech, in this case the speech of 20-year old Americans in 1969 trying to sound like Lenin in Zurich in 1917. Skillfully interwoven with the story of Hunter McNatt's search for his son are also the stories of people who run across one or the other along the way, and their speech is wonderfully correct. Vinny and Dom, his Boston cops, are a little too pat ("Pahk the cah in Hahvahd Yahd") but they still sound, well, like Boston cops. Sayles also captures the peculiar accents of Appalachia, especially the banter of men who work hard, as when one tells another, "You're so ugly you have to tie a pork chop around your neck just to git the dawg to play with you." http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=111863 Published on Monday, November 15, 1976 Lies My Father Told Me Setting the Record Straight On Age-Olde Harvard Myths (...) PAHK THE CAAH IN HAHVAHD YAHD--This little ditty mimicking the nuances of the Boston accent is based upon a mistaken notion that few non-Harvard people realize. Any vehicle parked in the Yard for an extended period of time--as a great many Harvard students can attest--will be towed away. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=498880 Published on Friday, January 19, 1940 HAWVUHD - HAVUHD - HEVEHD MIXTURE MAKES YAHD ACCENT No writer attributed "There are no less than three pronunciations of 'the broad A'," Frederick C. Packard, associate professor of English, made public this week in a classification of "the Harvard accent." There are three types of accents, Packard disclosed. First there is the broad A, or Hawvuhd group, comprising Back Bay and Park Avenue youths with a prep school background. Second is the flatter A, or Hahvuhd, group, made up of Greater Boston boys of Irish-American stock. The third, a "namby-pamby"' Hehvehd group is composed of Middle Western youths who believe that this is the correct pronunciation before they ever come within earshot of the Memorial Hall bells. The true Harvard accent is a combination of these three, according to Packard. "It does not originate here but is brought in by undergraduates." The "Yahd" accent is not unpleasant as is claimed, he asserted. "It's all right to say 'cawn't' and 'bawth' if it is done in a nice, musical tone," he stated. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=451637 Published on Friday, June 08, 1934 THE PRESS A Few Ralls (...) Yale snobbishness is not necessarily an attitude of rankling superiority. It is the snobbishness of indifference. Members of small and congenial groups, whether they be actually superior or inferior, are satisfied to stay within those groups. Any effort to break those bounds by forced congeniality to outsiders is dubbed "Joe College." (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title: Three Gloucester plays / Author(s): Horovitz, Israel. Publication: Garden City, NY : Fireside Theatre, Year: 1992 Description: viii, 279 p., [8] p. of plates : ports. ; 22 cm. Language: English Contents: Park your car in Harvard Yard -- Henry Lumper -- North Shore fish. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 04:21:16 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:21:16 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0500 3/18/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>>has a /k/. >> >>How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >>clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >>certainly so analyzable. >> >>Larry > >"Kookie, Kookie, Lend Me Your Comb." > Exactly. Edd (double-D) Byrnes, Route 66. To my knowledge, he was never "Kook", although he may have been by truncation, when the other guys (what were their names?) were in a hurry. But lower-case "kook", for a crazy or just eccentric type, was definitely widespread in the 60's. First OED cite: 1960 Daily Mail 22 Aug. 4/5 A kook, Daddy-O, is a screwball who is 'gone' farther than most. Daddy-O indeed. Real gone, man. Larry From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 04:25:59 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:25:59 -0500 Subject: *change* + preposition Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:57:18 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 9:39 PM -0500 3/18/05, James C Stalker wrote: >>I don't watch baseball much, but I did watch some of the World Series. >>The announcers in describing pitches and pitching strategies would say >>something like "he threw (or should have thrown) a change up." So what >>is a change up and how might it fit into this discussion? >> >A slow pitch, released with the same motion as a faster pitch. >Crucially, the batter is presumed to be expecting a fastball, and the >pitcher "changes up" on him. You color analysts can decide how it >fits into the discussion, I'm just the play-by-play guy. Baseball has many expressions for such off-speed pitches-- see this post: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412A&L=ads-l&P=R2187 As far as I can tell, "change-up" originated in the expression "change of pace", a term for a pitcher's mixture of fast and slow pitches. So a pitcher would "change it up" (i.e., change the pace) with a slower pitch, and this was eventually nominalized as "change-up". The phrasal verb "change (it) up" in this context is similar to "mix (it) up" or "switch (it) up", in the sense of skillfully varying one's approach to keep opponents off-balanced or confused. These are common expressions in various sports (not to mention in hiphop usage when a rapper is bragging about lyrical agility). --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 04:40:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <20050318042101.34236.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Goog" is attested in HDAS (s.v. "gook"). A headword itself, I see. OK. >I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing militating >against this spelling is that it could represent the sound in "cuke" cucumber.) I haven't found "guke". >How far back is "way back" for / gUk / ? Ben Zimmer recently posted "golfing gooks" rhymed with "brooks" from 1917. >"Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely >factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, right ? We've seen two examples on this list as Ben Zimmer recently recalled: only one was in audio so that the pronunciation is sure, but I think a rhyme is likely for the printed one. >Do we know the usu. early pronun. of "gook" (blockhead) ? I don't think so, but we know that it occurred once in 1917 as /gUk/ (see above). >Do we even know its ety.? Not for sure AFAIK. >You'll have to search for early indications of the pronun. of "gook" >(native). I don't know just when it first appeared in a standard >dictionary, or whether a pronun. ever appeared in AS. I've searched a little. Early sightings in AS were devoid of pronunciation help. EB (1958) shows /guk/, MW3 shows both, my older books don't show it at all. I believe there was a big surge in the frequency and familiarity of the word around the time of the Korean War (please correct me if necessary). >The burden of proof is on the argument that for some unkn. reason the most >freq. pronun. of "gook" (native) has swung from / gUk / to / guk / . Why >should the proportions have been significantly different in the past? If it is asserted that the modern ratio is, say, 10:1 in favor of /guk/, then there is no reason AFAIK a priori to assume a change in the ratio (although also no reason to exclude the possibility). If it is asserted that the current ratio is, say, 100:1 (and I wouldn't find this unbelievable) then the fact that both pronunciations appear in MW suggests to me (doesn't prove though) that the ratio may have been different 50 years ago. Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) "gook" being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) Korean "mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and taken as a folk-etymon, ca. 1950. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:23:02 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:23:02 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >>acronymically as early as 1895. > >I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious >acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): > >http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 > >If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far >behind? The acronymic interpretation of "hep" as the Crusader's cry "Hierosolyma est perdita" ("Jerusalem is lost") is an interesting case -- the OED dates it to 1839, twenty years after the "Hep! Hep! riots" against Jews in Hamburg, Frankfurt, and other German cities. ----- hep, int. [Said to be f. the initials of Hierosolyma Est Perdita; or, the cry of a goatherd.] Usu. hep, hep! The cry of those who persecuted Jews in the 19th century. Also attrib. 1839 Penny Cycl. XIII. 122/1 They [sc. the Jews] were massacred at the cry of 'Hep', 'Hep', the initials of the words 'Hierosolyma est perdita'. ----- Cecil Adams discusses this and finds it much more likely that "hep" came from the herder's cry. But the OED's 1839 cite shows that the acronymic explanation was being given not too long after the German riots. Perhaps there were anti-Semitic tracts floating around Germany at the time of the riots giving the Crusader story, thus popularizing the "Hep!" cry. Or perhaps it was simply explained this way after the fact by observers trying to link the riots to earlier expressions of anti-Semitism. An earlier backronym in English is "cabal", linked to the ministerial cabinet of Charles II, c. 1670: Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, Lauderdale. Though "cabal" derives from Hebrew "Kabbalah", it came to mean any kind of suspiciously secret matter, and by the mid-17th Century it had already developed a secondary meaning of "a small body of persons engaged in secret or private machination or intrigue" (see OED defs. 3-6). The coincidence of the names in the CABAL Cabinet cemented this meaning as the primary one. I'm not sure, though, of the extent to which the ministerial acronym was later presumed to have been the *source* of the word (rather than simply reinforcing one sense of the word). Here's a Making of America cite from 1876 suggesting that the acronymic explanation was taken seriously: ----- http://tinyurl.com/6shg4 Lieber, Francis. _Manual of political ethics_, 1876. The word cabal, as is well known, is now generally believed, according to Hume, ch. 65, to have been composed of the letters with which the names of the five dangerous ministers of the time began,-- namely, Clifford, Ashley, Buckingham, Arlington, and Lauderdale. (Burnet, Own Times, an. 1672.) Others derive it from the Hebrew Cabala, denoting a mysterious philosophy brought from Egypt. [It is certain that cabal was used to denote a faction or junto before the time of Charles II. It was borrowed from the French, who derived it from Cabala.] ----- Speaking of the Kabbalah, there are various Kabbalistic backronyms used as a kind of mystical folk etymology. For instance, the word PARDES ('paradise, garden') is expanded so that each consonant represents a level of scriptural interpretation: Peshat (literal meaning), Remez (allegorical meaning), Derasha (Talmudic interpretation), and Sod (mystical meaning). This acronymic explanation first appeared in the 13th century in the works of Moses ben Shem Tov (author of the Zohar). Similarly, early Christians made the Greek word for 'fish', ICHTHUS, stand for "Iesous CHristos THeou Uios Soter" (Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior). Based on this backronym, the fish has been used as a symbol for Christ since at least the 2nd century (and now can be seen affixed to the back of SUVs across middle America.) And going back even further is Plato's Cratylus, but I'll stop for now... --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:38:06 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:06 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <37037.69.142.143.59.1111209782.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 12:23 AM -0500 3/19/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:43:23 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >>>Maybe, but it's surprising to me that they were even thinking >>>acronymically as early as 1895. >> >>I asked a related question here some time back about a very dubious >>acronym much earlier (not in English but mentioned in English sources): >> >>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204A&L=ads-l&P=R912 >> >>If there are backronyms (bogus acronyms) can true acronyms be far >>behind? > >The acronymic interpretation of "hep" as the Crusader's cry "Hierosolyma >est perdita" ("Jerusalem is lost") is an interesting case -- the OED dates >it to 1839, twenty years after the "Hep! Hep! riots" against Jews in >Hamburg, Frankfurt, and other German cities. Well, there were some actual acronyms around before then in religious contexts. The oldest I know of is the famous "I-CH-TH-Y-S" for Jesus Christ/fish, immortalized on bumpers to this day. Then there are all those Hebrew ones, KATZ, RAMBAM, TANACH, etc. (I'm sure Mark knows this stuff better than I do.) So the "HEP" story is not inconceivable, at least as something plausibly believed at the time, if not actually true. larry >----- >hep, int. >[Said to be f. the initials of Hierosolyma Est Perdita; >or, the cry of a goatherd.] > >Usu. hep, hep! The cry of those who persecuted Jews in the 19th century. >Also attrib. > >1839 Penny Cycl. XIII. 122/1 They [sc. the Jews] were massacred at the cry >of 'Hep', 'Hep', the initials of the words 'Hierosolyma est perdita'. >----- > >Cecil Adams discusses >this and finds it much more likely that "hep" came from the herder's cry. >But the OED's 1839 cite shows that the acronymic explanation was being >given not too long after the German riots. Perhaps there were >anti-Semitic tracts floating around Germany at the time of the riots >giving the Crusader story, thus popularizing the "Hep!" cry. Or perhaps >it was simply explained this way after the fact by observers trying to >link the riots to earlier expressions of anti-Semitism. > >An earlier backronym in English is "cabal", linked to the ministerial >cabinet of Charles II, c. 1670: Clifford, Arlington, Buckingham, Ashley, >Lauderdale. Though "cabal" derives from Hebrew "Kabbalah", it came to >mean any kind of suspiciously secret matter, and by the mid-17th Century >it had already developed a secondary meaning of "a small body of persons >engaged in secret or private machination or intrigue" (see OED defs. 3-6). > The coincidence of the names in the CABAL Cabinet cemented this meaning >as the primary one. > >I'm not sure, though, of the extent to which the ministerial acronym was >later presumed to have been the *source* of the word (rather than simply >reinforcing one sense of the word). Here's a Making of America cite from >1876 suggesting that the acronymic explanation was taken seriously: > >----- >http://tinyurl.com/6shg4 >Lieber, Francis. _Manual of political ethics_, 1876. >The word cabal, as is well known, is now generally believed, according to >Hume, ch. 65, to have been composed of the letters with which the names of >the five dangerous ministers of the time began,-- namely, Clifford, >Ashley, Buckingham, Arlington, and Lauderdale. (Burnet, Own Times, an. >1672.) Others derive it from the Hebrew Cabala, denoting a mysterious >philosophy brought from Egypt. [It is certain that cabal was used to >denote a faction or junto before the time of Charles II. It was borrowed >from the French, who derived it from Cabala.] >----- > >Speaking of the Kabbalah, there are various Kabbalistic backronyms used as >a kind of mystical folk etymology. For instance, the word PARDES >('paradise, garden') is expanded so that each consonant represents a level >of scriptural interpretation: Peshat (literal meaning), Remez (allegorical >meaning), Derasha (Talmudic interpretation), and Sod (mystical meaning). >This acronymic explanation first appeared in the 13th century in the works >of Moses ben Shem Tov (author of the Zohar). > >Similarly, early Christians made the Greek word for 'fish', ICHTHUS, stand >for "Iesous CHristos THeou Uios Soter" (Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior). >Based on this backronym, the fish has been used as a symbol for Christ >since at least the 2nd century (and now can be seen affixed to the back of >SUVs across middle America.) > >And going back even further is Plato's Cratylus, but I'll stop for now... > > >--Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 05:53:20 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:53:20 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>I've never seen "guke"; have you checked ProQuest ? (One thing >>militating against this spelling is that it could represent the sound >>in "cuke" cucumber.) > >I haven't found "guke". Interestingly, though, "kook" (discussed elsethread) has the variant "kuke", attested in HDAS from 1956, earlier than the "kook" spelling (though both are preceded by "cuck", short for "cuckoo"). >>"Book / gUk /" may simply represent a minority pronun. or a purely >>factitious term. The phr. itself is attested independently only once, >>right ? > >We've seen two examples on this list as Ben Zimmer recently recalled: >only one was in audio so that the pronunciation is sure, but I think a >rhyme is likely for the printed one. Here are two cites in addition to the two from 1952 already given: ----- Washington Post, Mar 26, 1953, p. 40/3 Book gook: Studious person. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jul 29, 1955, p. II5/6 Our panel of teen-age experts today consists of two coolies (girls), two frantic cats (boys) and one book gook (formerly a square but now known as a cube). ----- >If it is asserted that the modern ratio is, say, 10:1 in favor of /guk/, >then there is no reason AFAIK a priori to assume a change in the ratio >(although also no reason to exclude the possibility). If it is asserted >that the current ratio is, say, 100:1 (and I wouldn't find this >unbelievable) then the fact that both pronunciations appear in MW suggests >to me (doesn't prove though) that the ratio may have been different 50 >years ago. > >Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an >identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) "gook" >being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) Korean >"mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and taken as a >folk-etymon, ca. 1950. Should we throw "kook" in the mix? It's suggestive that "gook" apparently derives from "goo-goo" and "kook" from "cuckoo"/"koo-koo". Also, I found a Washington Post letter to the editor from 1950 deriving "gook" from "goo-goo", but in the "goo-goo eyes" sense: ----- Washington Post, Sep 14, 1950, p. 10 "Gook" is derived from "goo goo" eyes, a derogatory term for Asiatics. The term no doubt isn't helping us "win friends and influence people." This is especially true of the South Koreans. ... Joseph Regal. Boston, Mass. [Editor's Note: Yet the South Koreans seem to have adopted the word and are applying it to the North Koreans!] ----- The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 19 06:18:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:18:04 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:53:20 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:40:56 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Why would it have changed? Well, IF it changed, and IF there is an >>identifiable reason, I can think of two possibilities offhand: (1) >>"gook" being likened to "spook" as an ethnic epithet, ca. 1945; (2) >>Korean "mi-guk" being perceived as /miguk/ rather than /migUk/ and >>taken as a folk-etymon, ca. 1950. > >Should we throw "kook" in the mix? It's suggestive that "gook" >apparently derives from "goo-goo" and "kook" from "cuckoo"/"koo-koo". > >Also, I found a Washington Post letter to the editor from 1950 deriving >"gook" from "goo-goo", but in the "goo-goo eyes" sense: > >----- >Washington Post, Sep 14, 1950, p. 10 >"Gook" is derived from "goo goo" eyes, a derogatory term for Asiatics. >The term no doubt isn't helping us "win friends and influence people." >This is especially true of the South Koreans. ... >Joseph Regal. Boston, Mass. >[Editor's Note: Yet the South Koreans seem to have adopted the word and >are applying it to the North Koreans!] >----- > >The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of >Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. More kooky kross-kultural konfusion: ----- Chicago Tribune, Oct 23, 1947, p. 36 You might be interested in the names given to America in the orient. Walter Simmons writes from Korea that America there is called Mikook [pronounced mee-gook]. Written in Chinese characters, this translates as "beautiful country," kook meaning country. Most Koreans, incidentally, take no offense when called gooks by GI's. They consider it a rather oafish compliment, meaning that the GI and the Korean both belong to the same country. ----- --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 06:21:42 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:21:42 -0500 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: <37949.69.142.143.59.1111211600.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu> Message-ID: >The editor's note could be based on yet another misunderstanding of >Korean: "miguk" = 'American person', "hanguk" = 'Korean person'. Quibble: "Miguk" = "America" (cognate with Chinese "Meiguo"), "Hanguk" = "Korea". "Migukin"/"Miguksaram" = "American" (n.), "Hangukin"/"Hanguksaram" = "Korean" (n.) ... I think. -- Doug Wilson From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 06:49:20 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:49:20 -0500 Subject: McKean, Sheidlower, Barrett, Kleinedler in NY Times; "Hot Dog" never to appear Message-ID: McKEAN, SHEIDLOWER, BARRETT, KLEINEDLER IN NEW YORK TIMES Jeez, I'm doing parking tickets ten hours a day and didn't have time to walk five blocks to the library during my lunch hour to check my e-mail and the newspapers. No one points this out? No one reads the New York Times? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/19/arts/19dict.html CHICAGO - Erin McKean answered the door to her brick apartment building in the Lincoln Square neighborhood here wearing a casual outfit accented by bright, pink-framed glasses and a pair of beat-up black-and-white Converse sneakers. She led a visitor down the wending stairs to her basement office, where she proceeded to sit down - or rather bounce - on a black exercise ball. "Drink?" she asked. She brought the beverage in a neon-blue glass. Might Ms. McKean be an escapee from a local version of Cirque du Soleil? A young woman in the throes of suspended adolescence? Hardly. She is one of the youngest editors in chief of one of the "Big Five" American dictionaries: At 33, she is in charge of the Oxford American Dictionary. (The others are American Heritage, Merriam-Webster, Webster's New World and Encarta.) She was appointed last year, and the first Oxford dictionary created under her auspices will hit stores next month. And she is not alone. Ms. McKean is part of the next wave of top lexicographers who have already or may soon take over guardianship of the nation's language, and who disprove Samuel Johnson's definition of a lexicographer as "a harmless drudge." They include Steve Kleinedler, 38, who is second in command at American Heritage and has a phonetic vowel chart tattooed across his back; Grant Barrett, 34, project editor of The Historical Dictionary of American Slang, whom Ms. McKean describes as looking as if he'd just as soon fix a car as edit a dictionary; and Peter Sokolowski, 35, an associate editor at Merriam-Webster and a professional trumpet player. Jesse Sheidlower, 36, editor at large of the Oxford English Dictionary, is best known among the group so far, partly because he is also editor of "The F-Word," a history of that vulgar term's use in English. He is known for his bespoke English suits, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "HOT DOG," NEVER TO APPEAR IN THE NEW YORK TIMES David Shulman died in November. His obituary mentioned a forthcoming book on the "hot dog" with Gerald Cohen and Barry Popick. Well, the book's out. I asked Jerry to send a copy to Florence Fabricant of the Times food section. She gives blurbs on food products and books and goings on. I'll try to explain this in Tonto English. HOT DOG--NEW YORK--FOOD. Nothing. No response. "Hot dog." This is a well-known food. It's a New York food and a New York story. The New York Times runs a food section every week. Sundays, too. What are they waiting for? David Shulman's already dead. Gerald Cohen to die? Me to die? Will I have to wait until 2017 (twelve years) like I did with the Big Apple? Do they review restaurants for the first time two decades after they open? So I wrote to the newspaper's Public Editor. You know, I've had great success with these guys, especially with the Chicago Tribune. They respond to the public. If you tell them that your work is plagiarized and they printed stuff you never said, the public editors really listen to you and respond. They really care about printing timely, important, accurate news. And the NY Times Public Editor replied that they get so many books, they can't review every book, blah blah blah. A form letter. I could have written that. The Times is a lot kinder to restaurants. Every big name restaurant gets reviewed right away. Even a small, ridiculous hole-in-the-wall that sells goddamn dumplings gets reviewed the week it opens, or gets a blurb, or gets SOMETHING. But if you solve the "hot dog," something that's not done every day, by anyone, actually, well, it's already ten years ago, hell, they're never going to print it! Never! NEVER! We're the Times! You solved the Big Apple? The hot dog? Fuck you! And it's like this every day of my life, and it never gets better. (E-MAILS) Attached Message From: Bapopik To: public at nytimes.com Cc: gcohen at umr.edu; jester at panix.com; sclements at neo.rr.com; jakenyt at yahoo.com Subject: Re: "Hot Dog" book briefly mentioned in Times, but never appears? Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:57:56 AM Eastern Standard Time Thanks for the reply. ... As I said, we sent a "hot dog" copy to Florence Fabricant of the food section--not to the book review. She mentions food news. ... The "hot dog" is an important food, and it's a New York story, too. Gerald Cohen was recently interviewed about this in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. It would make a wonderful food story for the start of the baseball season. ... As you may know, I solved "the Big Apple" in 1992, had the mayor sign "Big Apple Corner" into law in 1997, and finally got profiled in the Times in 2004. I guess these things will take years, but I'll never understand why. ... Very truly yours, ... Barry Popik ... In a message dated 3/18/2005 12:36:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, public at nytimes.com writes: At 01:21 AM 3/16/2005, you wrote: To the Public Editor, ... In November 2004, David Shulman died. His Times obituary mentioned that he was co-authoring a book on the origin of the term "hot dog" with Gerald Cohen (gcohen at umr.edu) and Barry Popik. That book is out. A free copy was given to Florence Fabricant. There's no follow-up? ... The legend of the "hot dog" had been that New York Journal cartoonist T. A. Dorgan ("TAD") coined the word "hot dog" at a baseball game at New York's Polo Grounds, in either 1901 or 1906. Our book states that TAD did use "hot dog" in 1906--when he was covering the Harry Stevens-catered six-day bicycle race at Madison Square Garden. ... Our book reveals that "hot dog" had been used at Yale University, from 1894-1895. We have wonderful newspaper illustrations that the Times can reproduce. ... Our work is mentioned in the Winter 2005 edition of the journal _Gastronomica_. I am also credited on the web pages of the National Hot Dog and Sausage Council. ... It's now the start of the baseball season. Is the New York Times going to ever tell its readers about the true story of the hot dog? Or is that brief mention in David Shulman's obituary going to be it? ... Barry Popik 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 (212) 308-2635 www.barrypopik.com Dear Mr. Popik, We get many suggestions for news coverage from our readers, however we here in the office of the public editor do not participate in the selection of features and reviews or make decisions regarding news coverage. If you want to submit a book for possible review please contact the book review at books at nytimes.com. You may be interested to know that about 80,000 books are published every year and The Times's Book Review reviews about 1,500 to 2,000 of them-- obviously not all published books can be reviewed. I include below some general information about the book review which we hope you will find helpful. Sincerely, Arthur Bovino Office of the Public Editor The New York Times The New York Times Book Review General Information Submitting Material for Review Consideration: Galleys of books for review consideration should be addressed to the "Editor of the Book Review" three to four months in advance of publication. If galleys are not available, finished books may be sent. All publishers are welcome to send material for review consideration, but please be aware that we review only a very small percentage of the books we receive and the odds against a given book receiving a review are long indeed. So before you send galleys or books you should familiarize yourself with the kinds of books we do and do not review. The Book Review covers general-interest books that are published in the United States and that can be found in most bookstores. 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If you wish to be considered as a reviewer, please send a letter stating your qualifications (including the books you have published) and copies of at least five published book reviews. Material should be sent to the Editor of the Book Review, 229 West 43rd St., New York, NY 10036. Best-seller lists Rankings reflect sales at almost 4,000 bookstores plus wholesalers serving 50,000 other retailers (gift shops, department stores, newsstands, supermarkets), statistically weighted to represent all such outlets nationwide. Requests for Research: It's a source of real regret to us that we cannot take time out of our regular duties to provide readers with research, story dates, reprints or other such requests. Our staff and facilities are fully occupied in putting out the newspaper. Back Issues: Back issues of The Book Review and the Times can be purchased by calling 1-800-543-5380. Rights and Permissions: For permission to republish or license Times text or photographs call 212-556-1989 or visit http://www.nytimesagency.com. Other information available from the Times can be found at the Help Center at http://www.nytimes.com/info/help/. Author's Queries: The Book Reviews publishes author's queries for writers doing research free of charge, but only when space permits. There can be no guarantee about whether and when an author's query will be published. Wording of queries should be sent to the Editor of the Book Review, 229 West 43rd St., New York, NY 10036. Be sure to include your phone number so we can reach you. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sat Mar 19 09:45:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:45:00 -0500 Subject: Noted without comment Message-ID: Willimantic [CT] Chronicle: Aug 8, 1883: Is "dude" libelous? Not long since a suit was brought in New York City on the ground that it was; and more recently a vigorous Bloomington woman cowhided a clerical editor for calling her a "dudess" Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 12:27:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:27:28 -0800 Subject: "gook" (rhymes with "book") In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: HDAS shows "mook" going back to 1930. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 6:19 PM -0800 3/18/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Who says "mook" > "Mookie" ? I'm claiming "Mook" < "Mookie", not vice versa, but to address the question-- A whole bunch of Mets fans, especially immediately after his (Mookie Wilson's) role in the 1986 Series win (especially hitting that ground ball that rolled through Buckner's legs). A basketball player named Mookie Blaylock, formerly from the U. of Oklahoma and various NBA teams, would also be called "Mook" on occasion, if memory serves. >Laurence Horn wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "gook" (rhymes with "book") >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 7:48 PM -0500 3/18/05, sagehen wrote: >>Leaving aside "gook" and all the other /-oo-/ words -- like roof & root -- >>that can go either way, I find that /k/ seems to be the most U-inspiring >>letter of the alphabet. I can come up off the top of my head with about 40 >>/-oo-/ words that sound the vowel as in "food." Only one of them ("spook") >>has a /k/. > >How about "kook"? Maybe that gets an /u/ because it derives (by >clipping) from "kookie". "Mook" (short for "Mookie", proper name) is >certainly so analyzable. > >Larry > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Make Yahoo! your home page --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 19 12:30:32 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 04:30:32 -0800 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I salute you. I discovered the quote while looking for "peola" cites. I have about fewer than half a dozen, beginning in 1942. Must a "peola" be a female? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've simply forgotten whatever he had to say. And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether anyone salutes, -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Get this: > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 19 12:49:49 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:49:49 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: <20050319123032.35530.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I suppose this "Peola" is from the movie "Imitation of Life"? -- Doug Wilson From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Sat Mar 19 14:33:28 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:33:28 -0500 Subject: Out of context Message-ID: I'm down from Philadelphia visiting family in Chapel Hill, N.C., and I feel like an exotic. Last night as I walked toward the entrance of their assisted living facility, I trade nods with a couple coming out. After we pass, they hail me from behind with "Shabbat shalom!": obviously, they noticed my kippah (yarmulka). They ask who I'm visiting, and tell me about the Friday evening Kiddush services held in the facility. I tell them Thanks, we knew about those, they were on the monthly schedule. The other facility that my relatives were considering mentioned church trips on its schedule, but no Jewish events. Back at the hotel the desk clerk, a young African-American man maybe just out of high school or in college, comments politely on the kippah, and we get into conversation. Turns out he knows a Jewish man through his school, but he can't remember the type. I run through the "denominations" common in the US -- orthodox, conservative, reform. "No... He believes in Jesus as the Son of God." "Oh," I answer, "OK, yeah. I don't want to argue, but most of us wouldn't call those people Jewish." He still wants to talk with me if I have some time during my stay. This morning the placard at the hotel's breakfast area reads (lowercase reproduced intact): today's weather: sunny today's breakfast special: top of the morning farm fresh eggs, savory country sausage & fluffy biscuits breakfast host: jesus In this context it takes me a few moments to re-parse that last line in my mind's ear: hay-SOOS, not JEE-zus. That staffer with the Spanish accent I told about the broken toaster. Yup, it's not *that* strange a place. mark by hand From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 19 14:52:06 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:52:06 -0800 Subject: Pahk the cah in Hahvuhd Yahd (1976); Joe College 1934) In-Reply-To: <8C6FA50B2F556B4-A10-10521@mblk-r11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The movie "Jaws" (1975) has the following exchange: Brody: They must be in the back yard. Ellen Brody: In Amity, you say "yahd." Brody: [speaking with a bad New-England accent] They're in the "yahd," not too "fah" from the "cah." Brody: How's that? Ellen Brody: Like you're from New York. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 19 16:13:00 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:13:00 -0500 Subject: "Rendering" of suspects Message-ID: In the King James version of the Christian bible, Jesus Christ is quoted as saying, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's. ..." Could the CIA just be trading on this biblical usage? >There seems to be an implied transitive verb here, but what is it? Larry Horn: >I'm afraid it's "rendre." Some uses of (Fr.) "rendre" translate to >"render", but this one doesn't (yet). Well, the "rendering" of suspects has already entered public discourse, and it should probably receive some WOTY consideration (at least for euphemism of the year): ----- http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050317-4.html Press Briefing by Scott McClellan, March 17, 2005 Q Are these reports wrong, or does he not believe that there's torture going on in these countries where these prisoners are being rendered back to? MR. McCLELLAN: When people are rendered to another country, we seek assurances that they won't be tortured. When we return known terrorists to their countries of origin, or we render people to countries, we want to have assurances that they're not going to be tortured, because that's a value that we hold very dearly. ... But we do take very seriously what our obligations are, and we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ... Q Scott, on renditions, has the United States ever rendered prisoners to countries other than their country of origin? MR. McCLELLAN: Ken, I'm not going to get into talking about any specific matters, and that would be getting into talking about specific matters. But I think I addressed that question earlier when I said that we have an obligation not to render people to countries if we believe they're going to be tortured. ----- A swing through Nexis suggests that "rendering" has been used by the intelligence community at least since 9/11, though it took some investigative reporting by the Washington Post in 2002 and 2004 for the term to become widely known. The cites below trace a shift in usage: "render (someone) to justice" > "render (someone) to a third country" > "render (someone)". ----- Boston Globe, October 7, 2001, p. A1 "These are not abductions, these are renditions," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "If they are wanted by foreign governments and there is concern that they are involved in terrorist activities, the idea is to render them to justice." ----- Washington Post, March 11, 2002, p. A1 Between 1993 and 1999, terrorism suspects also were rendered to the United States from Nigeria, the Philippines, Kenya and South Africa in operations acknowledged by U.S. officials. ... Even when local intelligence agents are involved, diplomats said it is preferable to render a suspect secretly because it prevents lengthy court battles and minimizes publicity that could tip off the detainee's associates. Rendering suspects to a third country, particularly Muslim nations such as Egypt or Jordan, also helps to defuse domestic political concerns in predominantly Muslim nations such as Indonesia, the diplomats said. ----- Washington Post, December 26, 2002, p. A1 Those who cooperate are rewarded with creature comforts, interrogators whose methods include feigned friendship, respect, cultural sensitivity and, in some cases, money. Some who do not cooperate are turned over -- "rendered," in official parlance -- to foreign intelligence services whose practice of torture has been documented by the U.S. government and human rights organizations. ... Some officials estimated that fewer than 100 captives have been rendered to third countries. ... The CIA's participation in the interrogation of rendered terrorist suspects varies from country to country. ----- Columbus Dispatch (Ohio), January 19, 2003, p. 4C In the CIA's euphemistic parlance, captives are "rendered" into foreign hands, and these "extraordinary renditions" are said to give the CIA "operational flexibility" in dealing with suspects. ----- Washington Post, July 29, 2004, p. A8 The exact number of people "rendered" or moved to foreign countries with U.S. assistance is unknown, but two cases have received widespread publicity. ----- Washington Post, December 27, 2004, p. A1 Ahmed Agiza was convicted by Egypt's Supreme Military Court of terrorism-related charges; Muhammad Zery was set free. Both say they were tortured while in Egyptian custody. Sweden has opened an investigation into the decision to allow them to be rendered. ----- Los Angeles Times, January 13, 2005, p. 1 "It's a growth industry," said a recently retired CIA clandestine officer who worked on several "renditions" in the Arab world. "We rendered a lot o FLAGS (XAOL-READ XAOL-GOODCHECK-DONE XAOL-GOOD) --- message truncated --- From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:23:23 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:23:23 -0500 Subject: Peola (was "Nee" = or; or perhaps) Message-ID: The New York City subway system makes a practice of putting up signs identifying the person who is the general supervisor of each station (usually a group of stations), with a photograph. I noticed with interest a few years ago in a station I do not often pass through that the station manager was one "Peola [last name forgotten]". A woman; from her picture reasonably light-skinned. For you NYCers: as I recall, this was in one of the east side IRT stations. Keep a look out. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:05 pm Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps > The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) > and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever > heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time > I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've > simply forgotten whatever he had to say. > > And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of > your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether > anyone salutes, > > -Wilson > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter > >Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------- > > > >Get this: > > > > "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) > it > >was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an > young>attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" > >(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). > > > >JL > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 18:36:45 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:36:45 -0800 Subject: 767'd Message-ID: To fire, get rid of? Is this a play on something that happened in the production history of Boeing's 767 and/or a play on the verb to 86? Seattle Post-Intelligencer, WA, March 19, 2005 http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/216621_sorbo19.html By CATHY SORBO His marital infidelity was considered by Boeing an act of corporate embarrassment, and Stonecipher was 767'd from the company. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place www.hiroki.us From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 19 18:48:59 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:48:59 -0800 Subject: Nice Message-ID: I've been hearing this one-word exclamation for a while now, perhaps a year or so. Today, the cashier at a coffee shop used it when I redeemed my buy-10-get-one-free coffee card. I recall another instance, though I don't remember the details, where someone used it in response to a story I told where I had done something that resulted in a good result for myself. It seems that at least one usage of this word is to compliment someone on doing something that resulted in a positive ending for that person (or someone else). Perhaps it's a narrowed clipping of the expression "nice job". When I hear it, I imagine it could be replaced with "sweet", though the converse is not necessarily true. It seems to be used in a quiet tone of voice, not something that someone yells as an indication of triumph. I think the final /s/ is an important part of the word's identity. Benjamin Barrett Baking the World a Better Place (starting in Seattle) www.hiroki.us From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:49:34 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:49:34 -0800 Subject: Canadian usage Message-ID: over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by canadians and not shared with other groups. so people suggest characteristically canadian items, and other people write in to say that they're canadian and *they* don't recognize this usage, or to say that the item is also used in the u.k., or in the northern u.s. or wherever (so it's not really *canadian*). when you exclude these two types of items, there's really nothing left. i'm waiting for someone to be told that, well, if they don't have a particular usage, then they're not *really* canadian. the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are supposed to know something about language. (yes, i know, a lot of the participants seem to be deeply, and aggressively, clueless, but still one hopes.) they seem to be unaware of the simplest facts about variation. how have we -- linguists, dialectologists, variationists -- so failed to educate our students and colleagues? they just seem to fall back on folk conceptualizations of language varieties as unique unities standing outside actual people and social groups. arnold, perhaps oversensitive after confronting the stories on the front page of today's NYT (thank goodness erin, steve, etc. appeared inside) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 18:55:52 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:55:52 -0500 Subject: Out of context In-Reply-To: <20050319092943.U16736@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 9:33 AM -0500 3/19/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > >This morning the placard at the hotel's breakfast area reads (lowercase >reproduced intact): > > >today's weather: >sunny > >today's breakfast special: >top of the morning >farm fresh eggs, savory country sausage & fluffy biscuits > >breakfast host: >jesus Talk about your heavenly host! If it really was Jesus, the Original, you could have checked out whether He'd be willing to turn your tomato juice into a bloody Mary. > >In this context it takes me a few moments to re-parse that last line in my >mind's ear: hay-SOOS, not JEE-zus. That staffer with the Spanish accent I >told about the broken toaster. Yup, it's not *that* strange a place. > > >mark by hand From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 19:01:46 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:01:46 -0500 Subject: T.I.P. acronym--1895 In-Reply-To: <46778.69.142.143.59.1111211854.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 12:57 AM -0500 3/19/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:38:06 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >Well, there were some actual acronyms around before then in religious >>contexts. The oldest I know of is the famous "I-CH-TH-Y-S" for Jesus >>Christ/fish, immortalized on bumpers to this day. Then there are all >>those Hebrew ones, KATZ, RAMBAM, TANACH, etc. > >Yes, as I mentioned further down in my post! > oopsy-daisy, my bad. Ben even mentioned the same bumpers. GMTA again, obviously, with one of the great minds not even noticing what the other one had written. L From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Mar 19 19:26:03 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:26:03 +0000 Subject: Nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This would seem to be a transatlantic cousin, even descendant, of the UK's 'nice one!', often modified as 'nice one, my son'. This in turn seems to have emerged from the 1970s soccer chant, dedicated to the Tottenham Hotspur player Cyril Knowles. It ran thus: Nice one, Cyril Nice one, son Nice one Cyril Let's have another one! The 'one' being a goal. (BTW, the north-London club Tottenham Hotspur, for those who appreciate the grim persistence of such things, are sometimes known among rival supporters who refer to the club's supposedly high- percentage of Jewish fans, as 'The Yids'.) The phrase, as it is in the chant, is used when someone has performed some action worthy of acclaim and soon spread beyond the soccer world, being used with and latterly without the 'Cyril'. 'Nice' as a term of congratulatory approval by itself is also reasonably common in the UK. I don't know whether the BBC-TV comedy series The Fast Show, has made it to PBS (it wouldn't have been picked up anywhere else, I would imagine) but this series, first aired in the 1990s, assembled a number of sketches featuring a 'cast' of stock characters. one of whom was a supposed jazz critic, whose response to any piece of music, was invariably 'Nice!', the 's' being heavily sibilant. Jonathon Green From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Sat Mar 19 19:29:36 2005 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:29:36 +0000 Subject: Nice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At which point I correct myself and apologise for misinformation. 'Nice one', if not 'nice', precedes Mr Knowles, emerging in the late 1960s, very early 1970s. Thus Bob Marley, in 'Kinky Reggae' (1971) 'Nice one, nice one, that?s what they say.' JG From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Mar 19 19:40:57 2005 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:40:57 -0600 Subject: Noted without comment--(dude) Message-ID: This 1883 item isn't surprising. Earlier that year the highly insulting poem (to dudes) had appeared and popularized the term "dude." The dudes were seen to be shallow, brainless young men who were slavishly imitating what they thought was high British culture--tight pants, pointed shoes, high collar, monacle, top hat, cane, cigarette, and a highly affected manner of speaking. The cartoonists and other humorists of that time had a field-day with them. Gerald Cohen Original message: > Willimantic [CT] Chronicle: > > Aug 8, 1883: Is "dude" libelous? Not long since a suit was brought in New York City on the ground that it was; and more recently a vigorous Bloomington woman cowhided a clerical editor for calling her a "dudess" > > Michael McKernan > > > From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sat Mar 19 20:02:22 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:02:22 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France Message-ID: If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a lick-block of salt). http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html -- It is claimed the English word "bad" is used in the same slang sense it has had in the U.S. since at least 1984, where it equals "cool" or "good." Also, one of the kids (white) uses the English word "Black" as a term for black members of his cohort and, apparently, no matter the race, they call each other "n?gro": do these show the influence hip-hop culture? -- It is claimed that "verlan" (slang-speak in which words are reversed) is now little-used, since it has become so well-known and adopted by the mainstream. -- A large part of the article concerns teaching young people to speak mainstream French rather than city slang, so that they can function outside of their neighborhood and peer groups. This parallels similar debates in the United States. In one part, the author quotes a person who says youngsters calling about internships open with statements like "Hello? It's about an internship" rather than starting with the formal or polite language still customary in business settings. -- The article claims some kids have an active vocabulary of 350 to 400 words and that they lack the polite language necessary for engaging with strangers. It is described how they are basically unable to defend themselves against accusations of law-breaking, or even of being late, because of their impoverished vocabulary. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 19 23:38:23 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:38:23 -0800 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: my latest Language Log posting -- http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 19 23:50:29 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:29 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: I just asked my 14 year old word/movie/tv geek as he passed through my apartment. He instantly said "Dad. I think it was in the movie "Porky's." (1982). He's been known to be wrong, but he is often right. If someone wants to watch said movie, then we'll know. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" To: Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: tighty-whitey > my latest Language Log posting -- > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html > -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". > anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 19 23:57:49 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey In-Reply-To: <06bd08761f9214a911eaa1ae02684ecb@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > my latest Language Log posting -- > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html > -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". > anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) > > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late 90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The earliest , from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. -- AF From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 00:20:30 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:20:30 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500, Alice Faber wrote: >Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> my latest Language Log posting -- >> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html >> -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". >> anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) >> >> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) > >I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late >90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The >earliest >, >from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the >writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. Goes back to 1990 with the spelling "tighty-whities": http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex/msg/199e559efaa1431f --Ben Zimmer From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 20 01:06:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:06:17 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: Sam Clements wrote: >I just asked my 14 year old word/movie/tv geek as he passed through my >apartment. He instantly said "Dad. I think it was in the movie "Porky's." >(1982). > >He's been known to be wrong, but he is often right. Yes, but has he been ameliorated? Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 01:15:40 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:15:40 -0500 Subject: 767'd Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:36:45 -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >To fire, get rid of? Is this a play on something that happened in the >production history of Boeing's 767 and/or a play on the verb to 86? > >Seattle Post-Intelligencer, WA, March 19, 2005 >http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/216621_sorbo19.html >By CATHY SORBO >His marital infidelity was considered by Boeing an act of corporate >embarrassment, and Stonecipher was 767'd from the company. Boeing is phasing out the 767 and replacing it with the 787, so it would make sense as company slang for getting laid off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787 --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 01:45:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:45:48 -0500 Subject: tighty-whitey Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:20:30 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:57:49 -0500, Alice Faber >wrote: > >>Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >>> my latest Language Log posting -- >>> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001992.html >>> -- takes up "tighty-whitey" (and "whitey-tighty") vs. "tidy-whitey". >>> anyone have any datings on this one? (it's not in the obvious places.) >> >>I first encountered the term (with Ts all around) on usenet in the late >>90s. Googling usenet groups shows a few instances prior to 1996. The >>earliest >>, >>from 1993, provides an explanation of the term, suggesting that the >>writer thought readers might not be familiar with it. > >Goes back to 1990 with the spelling "tighty-whities": > >http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.sex/msg/199e559efaa1431f The same spelling is found in Connie Eble's _Slang and Sociability_, attested at UNC Chapel Hill in 1991. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0807845841/?v=search-inside&keywords=tighty --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 02:51:07 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:51:07 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$8pjqt7@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: State of Youth Slang In France >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at >current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such >articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a >lick-block of salt). > >http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html > >-- It is claimed the English word "bad" is used in the same slang sense >it has had in the U.S. since at least 1984, where it equals "cool" or >"good." Also, one of the kids (white) uses the English word "Black" as >a term for black members of his cohort and, apparently, no matter the >race, they call each other "n?gro": do these show the influence hip-hop >culture? Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people who appear in this scene are all white. -Wilson Gray > >-- It is claimed that "verlan" (slang-speak in which words are >reversed) is now little-used, since it has become so well-known and >adopted by the mainstream. > >-- A large part of the article concerns teaching young people to speak >mainstream French rather than city slang, so that they can function >outside of their neighborhood and peer groups. This parallels similar >debates in the United States. In one part, the author quotes a person >who says youngsters calling about internships open with statements like >"Hello? It's about an internship" rather than starting with the formal >or polite language still customary in business settings. > >-- The article claims some kids have an active vocabulary of 350 to 400 >words and that they lack the polite language necessary for engaging >with strangers. It is described how they are basically unable to defend >themselves against accusations of law-breaking, or even of being late, >because of their impoverished vocabulary. > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 03:23:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:23:25 -0500 Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re: "Must a 'peola' be a female?" Yes. "Bright(-skinned)ness" is irrelevant, if a person is male. For a modern example, cf. Wesley Snipes vs. Halle Berry. As is the case in the broader world, a man can substitute fame or fortune, cf. Donald Trump, for fair skin, large breasts, or other measures of physical attractiveness that apply to women. -Wilson >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I salute you. I discovered the quote while looking for "peola" >cites. I have about fewer than half a dozen, beginning in 1942. > >Must a "peola" be a female? > >JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The word is definitely "Peola" (approx. [piol@] w/stress on the /o/) >and not "Pecola." It's quite rare. The only person that I've ever >heard speak it is my mother, who's now 93. And this is the only time >I've seen it written. Unless it's in Majors, in which case I've >simply forgotten whatever he had to say. > >And yes, Jon. I do understand that the above is beside the point of >your post. ;-) I'm just running it up the flagpole to se whether >anyone salutes, > >-Wilson > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: "Nee" = or; or perhaps >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Get this: >> >> "In that glossary was the term Peola ( it may have been Pecola) it >>was many many years ago I last saw it. Peola (nee Pecola) is an young >>attractive fair skin Negro girl." -- "Broye," "Harlem Slang" >>(Usenet: soc.culture.african.american.moderated ) (Apr. 17, 1999). >> >>JL >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 04:32:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:32:27 -0500 Subject: Nice Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:26:03 +0000, Jonathon Green wrote: >This would seem to be a transatlantic cousin, even descendant, of the >UK's 'nice one!', often modified as 'nice one, my son'. I would have guessed that "nice going!" was the predecessor in AmEng. OED3 has it from 1938 ("nice work!" from 1914), but it looks like the interjection was relatively common by the mid- to late '20s: ----- Atlanta Constitution, Aug 12, 1910, p. 10 Fisher was responsible for all the runs. He scored the first on Sid's triple, drove in the second and third with his homer and scored the fourth himself. Pretty nice going, that. ----- Appleton Post Crescent (Wisc.), Oct 22, 1925, p. 17 Nice going, Adolphus. But you got us a trifle wrong. ----- Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisc.), Oct 4, 1926, p. 11 Many people who are aware of the consistent bowling of "Bill" Zarling, thought it must have been he. However, no such luck, it was his brother, "Wally" who decided to get himself up among the bowlers. Nice going, "Wally!" ----- Chicago Tribune, Feb 5, 1927, p. 17 (personal advt.) Cherries: I've been practically swamped with responses to pleas for feminine companionship. Nice going! ----- Port Arthur News (Tex.), June 29, 1927, p. 10 He shut out the Bears 4 to 0 with one hit last Friday and on Tuesday of that week he relieved Brown in the fifth inning of a game against Waco and held the Cubs to a single safety for the remainder of the route, finally winning out in the eleventh inning. Nice going! ----- --Ben Zimmer From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Sun Mar 20 05:03:21 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 06:03:21 +0100 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: <20050319200224.4F5DFA2CA@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:02:22 -0500, "Grant Barrett" said: > If you read French, this article in Le Monde is a fascinating look at > current youth slang in France (though I suspect that, like such > articles in American newspapers, it might need to be looked at with a > lick-block of salt). > > http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-402088,0.html The article quotes a linguist who reckons that young people in poor neighborhoods have a vocabulary of 350 to 400 words, whereas "we" have 2500 words. That has to be nonsense. -- Pas simple de chercher du travail, d'ouvrir un compte en banque ou de s'inscrire ? la S?curit? sociale quand on ne poss?de que "350 ? 400 mots, alors que nous en utilisons, nous, 2 500", estime ainsi le linguiste Alain Bentolila, pour qui cette langue est d'une "pauvret?" absolue. -- Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Sun Mar 20 06:11:38 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:11:38 -0600 Subject: Canadian usage Message-ID: Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:49:34 -0800 From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Canadian usage "over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by canadians and not shared with other groups. so people suggest characteristically canadian items, and other people write in to say that they're canadian and *they* don't recognize this usage, or to say that the item is also used in the u.k., or in the northern u.s. or wherever (so it's not really *canadian*). when you exclude these two types of items, there's really nothing left. "i'm waiting for someone to be told that, well, if they don't have a particular usage, then they're not *really* canadian." I can't recall in which newsgroup I saw a post from a Canadian who wanted to reshape his country so that it only took in "real Canadians." He did not consider residents of Ontario and Quebec to be real Canadians. "the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are supposed to know something about language. (yes, i know, a lot of the participants seem to be deeply, and aggressively, clueless, but still one hopes.) they seem to be unaware of the simplest facts about variation. how have we -- linguists, dialectologists, variationists -- so failed to educate our students and colleagues? they just seem to fall back on folk conceptualizations of language varieties as unique unities standing outside actual people and social groups." At least it's on topic. I once looked at a Scottish political newsgroup, out of curiousity about Scottish politics. It was full of Canadians discussing Australian gun laws. (Did you realize that the Magna Carta protects the rights of Australians to bear arms? Rather foresighted of the Barons of Runnymede.) On rec.arts.sf.science, the people who've taken their scientific knowledge from Star Trek (I mean that literally; this is not hyperbole) aren't the problem. Their questions are answered politely, and they politely accept the answers. The problem posters are the ones who have some scientific knowledge -- but not nearly as much as they think they do. -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 20 07:04:32 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:04:32 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Michael Quinion discussed possible etyma for "brownie points" recently. I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the Girl Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I have (of course) a naive dubious notion of my own, but before I embarrass myself again I would like to ask Jonathan Lighter and all the other scholars: (1) Is *any* expression of the exact form "brownie point" definitely attested before 1951? (2) Is it certain that there was a previous entity called a "Brownie point" within the Brownies organization, or is it simply assumed that anything called within the Brownies a "point" could be called a "Brownie point" by outsiders? Is there any known record of a literal "Brownie point" (referring to the Brownies) and if so from what date? -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Mar 20 09:36:02 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 09:36:02 -0000 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050320014450.02fc94a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the > Girl Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. > > Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I've had a lot of interesting feedback on the piece I wrote, but likewise find that the written evidence and responses leave a lot of loose ends. One theory I mentioned connects it to the Brown system of demerits (and merits, though the demerits seem to get all the coverage) on the railways, for which there's lots of evidence for "Brownies" but not so far as I know for "Brownie points"; its narrow constituency would in any case count against it. The other, presented by a couple of subscribers of mature years, links it to a system of rewarding deliverers of magazines by the Curtis Publishing Company in the 1930s by vouchers called "greenies" and "brownies". I included this in the last newsletter in the hope that it would spark some responses; one has come in saying that they weren't brownies but "goldies", which would kill the theory dead. I haven't so far been able to confirm or dismiss either term. Though a link with "brown-nose" is often asserted, with implications that "Brownie points" was WW2 services slang, it is interesting that several examples of the phrase "Brownie points" appear in newspapers in the 1950s. If it had been known to be scatalogical at this period, as many subscribers insist, would it really have been allowed to be so freely printed? > (2) Is it certain that there was a previous entity called a "Brownie > point" within the Brownies organization, or is it simply assumed that > anything called within the Brownies a "point" could be called a > "Brownie point" by outsiders? Is there any known record of a literal > "Brownie point" (referring to the Brownies) and if so from what date? My subscribers are divided on this: some say that there were Brownie points, so called, others that there weren't. I, too, would like a definitive answer! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Mar 20 10:15:04 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:15:04 EST Subject: "Spring forward/ahead, Fall back" (1957, by L.A. Examiner?) Message-ID: _Chicago Historical Society Home Page_ (http://www.chicagohistory.org/) ... Get E-News, Coming April 28: The Electronic Encyclopedia of Chicago! Did you know that CHS prepares a series of events just for members? ... www.chicagohistory.org/ - 13k - _Cached_ (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5B_5uR-ETtcJ:www.chicagohistory.org/+"april+28"+and+"encyclopedia+of+chicago" &hl=en&ie=UTF-8) - _Similar pages_ (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.chicagohistory.org/) I met with my sister to do our taxes together. Earlier in the week, she gave me a fax number. It was wrong. She also gave me a time for the Scarsdale train to take today. It was also wrong. "I was tired," she said. It made m So I took the train to Scarsdale. I decided to buy a hard copy of the New York Times to read about the "young lexicograp And I thought, jeez, this "hot dog" thing is miserable, but that's just one thing. Tulsa World doesn't believe or publish Gerald Cohen when he says that the "Big Apple" doesn't come from a woman's vagina. And I thought, why not wait a couple of years, I'll still be a piece of shit, and there will be a new article on a Sheidlower daughter being the youngest dictionary editor ever. But you have to set goals for yourself, so I have this upcoming April 28th, as above, the next date that I will be plagiarized. So I saw the accountant, and she doesn't ask me if I got married anymore, because the idea that anyone will ever like me is out of the question. But she asked if I made any money from writing, and the answer was again "no." The seasons may change, but you can bet that I'll never be a human ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Does Fred Shapiro have "spring ahead/spring forward, fall back"? It's one of the most popular of American saying, but is usually not quotation books. Walter Winchell's 1957 citation of the Los Angeles Examiner is interesting. Did the Examiner coin It's easy enough to check--we know what spring and fall dates are. The hard part is that I'll have to visit the Library of Congress. PEACEMAKER & DIRT PIE ... Sorry if the right-hand column of my left post got cut off. ... Jacques-Imo's opened in New Orleans in 1996. In February 2004, it opened at Columbus Avenue and 77th Street, bringing a little of New Orleans to New York. In December, "Jacques-Imo's To Geaux" (maybe a French scholar on the list can translate this) opened at Grand Central Terminal. I tried it yesterday. ... The menu includes these: ... Shrimp & Alligator Sausage Cheesecake Jambalaya Smoked Chicken & Andouille Gumbo Red Beans & Rice The "Peacemaker" Po' Boy Shrimp Creole Smothered Blackened Chicken Crawfish Etoufee Corn Macquechoux Jacque's Famous Dirt Pie Beugnets ... I've posted on "dirt cake" here before, but not "dirt pie." I'll do it again, maybe later. ... DARE has nothing on "peacemaker"? Will the OED have anything? Is this really a classic New Orleans sandwich, older than some others? ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Capital _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2lYkxDF6Vmwrpd0fq7GIxtcCsxlyF69hZkIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, January 25, 1991 _Annapolis,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:annapolis+peace+maker+sandwich) _Maryland_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+peace+maker+sandwich) ...Jumbo Extra Large Large S67V. PEACE MAKER SANDWICH H cap cream fir tpruOing.....Otter Eqrint2r11R1 WK WISH FOR PEACE 2019 WEST ANNAPOLIS 224-8686 lues.. Pg. 5, col. 1: PEACE MAKER (SUPER SANDWICH RECOPE) 1 loaf Italian bread 8 slices bacon 1/2 cup sour cream 1.2 pint (8 ounces) shucked Maryland OYSTERS, drained flour for sprinkling 2 medium tomatoes salt and pepper to taste 1 teaspoon horseradish Slice bread lengthwise, scoop out soft bread. Fry bacon, remove and drain. Sprinkle oysters with flour and fry in bacon fat. Remove and keep warm. Slice tgomatoes and cook in remaining bacon fat. Place cooked bacon, oysters and tomatoes in bread. Cut bread diagonally. Mix sour cream and horseradish and serve as a sauce. Makes 4 servings. ... Maryland Watermen's Co-op ... DIRT PIE ... DIRT CAKE--12,600 Google hits, 278 Google Groups hits DIET PIE--640 Google hits, 52 Google Groups hits .. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- SIDEWALK SUPERINTENDENT ... This is mentioned in Sunday's New York Times, city section, FYI. I'll research "sidewalk superintendent" later, or someone else can. ... ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/nyregion/thecity/20fyicol.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/20/nyregion/thecity/20fyicol.html) F.Y.I. A Rockefeller Club By _MICHAEL POLLAK_ (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=MICHAEL POLLAK&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=MICHAEL POLLAK&inline=nyt-per) Published: March 20, 2005 . While watching the excavation for the Bank of America building at 42nd Street and the Avenue of the Americas, I became curious about "sidewalk superintendents," those people who watch the construction. Is that a New York term? A. He may not have originated the expression, but John D. Rockefeller Jr. made it popular during the Depression, when looking at work was a cheap alternative to looking for work. Legend has it that Mr. Rockefeller, who loved to watch the construction of the complex that bore his name, once stopped at the entrance to a trucking ramp, only to be told: "Keep moving, buddy. You can't stand here all day." His response, in November 1938, was the Sidewalk Superintendents' Club, a wooden shed on Rockefeller Plaza between 48th and 49th Streets, complete with free membership cards. The trucking ramp story has a nice egalitarian ring to it, but it was just a legend, according to Daniel Okrent in "Great Fortune: The Epic of Rockefeller Center" (Viking, 2003). He wrote that the idea apparently came from a platform for kibitzers in Des Moines and was apparently picked up by Nelson A. Rockefeller, Junior's son. Whatever the source, the publicity stunt caught on, three-quarters of a million membership cards were handed out in the first three months, and soon there were national affiliates - from Hollywood, Fort Worth and elsewhere - who passed time kibitzing at their local sites ... ... (OED) 3. Comb., as sidewalk cafe, skate, song, tree; sidewalk superintendent joc. (chiefly U.S.), an idler who watches and gives unsolicited advice at construction works, road repairs, etc.; ...1940 Sun (Baltimore) 30 Mar. 20/7 The walk..is covered so that the sidewalk superintendents can meet in rainy weather. 1970 _R. P. WARREN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-w.html#r-p-warren) Incarnations 46 Sidewalk superintendents turn now From their duties and at you stare. 1976 A. CASSORLA Skateboarder's Bible 9 Weird-wheeling sidewalk surfers can be seen whipping over the blacktop from Reno to Rio de Janeiro. From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Mar 20 12:15:34 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:15:34 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: > Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, > "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which > the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what > you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people > who appear in this scene are all white. I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but between girls? Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Sun Mar 20 12:17:14 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 07:17:14 -0500 Subject: Dirt Pie Message-ID: >Dirt Pie sounds to me like a drier version of Mississippi Mud Pie/Cake. Michael McKernan From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 20 16:47:20 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:47:20 -0800 Subject: Language Log postings Message-ID: Two recent postings that mine earlier ADS-L exchanges: Orthocorrection: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001993.html Another bullshit night in suck city: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001994.html From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 17:45:56 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 12:45:56 -0500 Subject: Brownie points Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:04:32 -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Michael Quinion discussed possible etyma for "brownie points" recently. > >I see HDAS derives the expression from the Brownies (branch of the Girl >Scouts), which is not implausible IMHO. > >Quinion has presented a few other theories (unsubstantiated, I think). I >have (of course) a naive dubious notion of my own, but before I embarrass >myself again I would like to ask Jonathan Lighter and all the other scholars: > >(1) Is *any* expression of the exact form "brownie point" definitely >attested before 1951? I assume Doug is referring to a 1951 L.A. Times citation, which is not mentioned in Michael Quinion's piece (he mentions two 1954 cites from Newspaperarchive). The 1951 article is interesting, in that it doesn't mention "Brownies" (or capitalize the term), instead relating "brownie points" to the older sense of "brownie" as an elfin spirit: ----- Los Angeles Times, Mar 15, 1951, p. A5 Brownie Points--a New Measure of a Husband By Marvin Miles I first heard about them when the chap standing next to me in the elevator pulled a letter from his pocket, looked at it in dismay and muttered: "More lost brownie points." Figuring him for an eccentric, I forgot about them until that evening when one of the boys looked soulfully into the foam brimming his glass and said solemnly: "I should have been home two hours ago ... I'll never catch up on my brownie points." Brownie points! What esoteric cult was this that immersed men in pixie mathematics? "What are you talking about?" I asked. "Brownie points," he said. "You either have 'em or you don't. Mostly you don't. But if you work hard you sometimes get even. I never heard of anyone getting ahead on 'em. "Are you feeling all right?" "Sure, sure. I'm just worried about my points, that's all." "What's this genie geometry all about?" "You don't know about brownie points? All my buddies keep score. In fact every married male should know about 'em. It's a way of figuring where you stand with the little woman -- favor or disfavor. Started way back in the days of the leprechauns, I suppose, long before there were any doghouses." [...] "If a leprechaun figured out brownie points," I mused, "you can bet it was a girl leprechaun, some scheming sprite who wanted to tie up her guy's conscience in addition and subtraction -- mostly subtraction." ----- So if the Brownie system of merits/demerits is the ultimate source of the expression, then there were at least two subsequent reinterpretations: "brownie" as a euphemism for "brown-nosing", and "brownie" in the elfin sense. (Or, as Michael mentions, these could all be reinterpretations of the voucher system of the Curtis Publishing Co.) --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 20 18:43:52 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:43:52 -0500 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) Message-ID: OED3 gives cites for the sarcastic interjection "Not!" back to 1888, including the 1893 _Princeton Tiger_ headline found by Barry Popik ("An Historical Parallel -- Not"). Sheidlower and Lighter's 1993 _AmSp_ article gives further examples from the early 20th century. I recently came across a cite from 1923 in the _Chicago Tribune_, showing that "Not!" was common enough by then to appear in a headline of a major newspaper: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 25, 1923, p. A2, col. 7 Canadian Girls Spill Brownies Quintet, 18 to 8. A Good Sport -- Not! One of the poorest exhibitions of sportsmanship ever shown in this city occurred last night during the basketball game between the Uptown Brownies and the London, Ont., Shamrocks at the Broadway armory. A man named Christensen, a rooter for the Canadian team, deliberately threw an orange and hit a photographer with force enough to crush the orange and raise a large welt on the side of the operator's face. Christensen was a good sport -- not. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 20 19:40:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:40:47 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Grant Barrett >Subject: Re: State of Youth Slang In France >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: >> Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, >> "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which >> the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what >> you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people >> who appear in this scene are all white. > >I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, >outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to >hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can >witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but >between girls? > >Grant Barrett >gbarrett at worldnewyork.org When I was a kid in Texas, ca.1947-48, it was common for black boys to address one another as "son." Sometimes, the boy so addressed would take pretended umbrage. In such a case, the first boy would reply, "I don't call you 'sun' because you shine; I call you 'son' because you mine." I.e. "I'm yo' daddy. And how did I come to be yo' daddy? Why, by fuckin' yo' mama." IMO, this throws some light on the origin of the current rhetorical question, "Who('s) yo' daddy?" -Wilson Gray From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 04:31:25 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:31:25 -0500 Subject: La Mediatrice or Peacemaker Sandwich Message-ID: MEDIATRICE + NEW ORLEANS--305 Google hits, 12 Google Groups hits PEACEMAKER + NEW ORLEANS--85,400 Google hits, 421 Google Groups hits More on the "la mediatrice" or "peacemaker" sandwich. OED doesn't have the sandwich under "mediatrice." Will it enter something for "peacemaker"? I used to give a "peacemaker" to my ex-wife, Kirstie Alley. I think that's how the trouble started, actually. (FACTIVA) Spotlight WACKY QUESTION, FEBRUARY 26 Mike Rudeen, Rocky Mountain News 329 words 26 February 2005 Rocky Mountain News FINAL 9D English Copyright (c) 2005 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. Where was the name for the po-boy sandwich coined, and by whom? - Leonard, Havana, Cuba Although some say the New Orleans-born po-boy descended from the peacemaker sandwich, an oyster loaf so called because carousing 19th- century husbands brought them home to their wives as peace offerings, most sources attribute it to Martin Brothers restaurant. In 1929, during a New Orleans streetcar-workers' strike, Clovis and Bennie Martin, former streetcar conductors themselves, provided free sandwiches from their restaurant to the "poor boys" on strike, according to a story in The (New Orleans) Times-Picayune. This wasn't the first sandwich served in New Orleans on French bread, but a baking innovation about the same time helped the new version catch on. According to an earlier Times- Picayune story, a baker developed a french loaf without tapered ends, making it easier to slice the sandwich into equal sections, the way it's usually served. It isn't known what fillings the Martin Brothers used, but newspaper accounts say roast beef, ham and cheese, and fried potato were popular. Long before the restaurant closed in 1972, the new sandwich - and the name poor boy, soon shortened to po-boy - had caught on in a big way. (FACTIVA) LAGNIAPPE Humble origins for the king of sandwiches Brett Anderson Restaurant writer 457 words 30 May 2003 Times-Picayune 22 English Copyright (c) 2003 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved. The po-boy is associated with blue-collar New Orleans as surely as trout meuniere is with Garden District elites. While there are divergent theories about its origins -- one has it that the po-boy was an offshoot of the peacemaker sandwich, an oyster loaf named because 19th century husbands were said to bring one home to their wives as a peace offering after a night of carousing -- most people agree that the po-boy was birthed at Martin Brothers restaurant in 1929 in response to a street car workers' strike. The restaurant was opened in 1922 by Clovis and Bennie Martin, brothers from Raceland who had previously worked as streetcar conductors. Michael Mizell-Nelson, an assistant professor of English at Delgado Community College, has studied the 1929 streetcar strike extensively. His documentary, "Streetcar Stories," includes a portion on the po-boy's origins. The strike was particularly bitter, and Mizell-Nelson has a copy of a letter the Martins wrote professing their allegiance to their former colleagues. In a letter addressed to "the striking carmen, Division I94," the brothers wrote, "We are with you till hell freezes, and when it does, we will furnish blankets to keep you warm." They provided free sandwichesto the carmen for the duration of the strike. Whenever a striker would come by, one of the brothers would announce the arrival of another "poor boy," hence the sandwich's name. New Orleanians, or course, had eaten French bread sandwiches long before the Martins' coinage, but the strike coincided with other innovations that have endured. Typically, French bread loaves are tapered at the ends. Cutting such a loaf into three or four parts to make sandwiches would result in mismatched slices. According to a 1981 story in The Times-Picayune's Dixie magazine, around the time of the strike, "John Gendusa, a baker on Touro Street, solved the problem of equalizing the Martins' sandwiches. He developed an elongated tube-like French loaf of approximately 32 inches in length that was more or less straight from end to end. Used for sandwiches, Gendusa's crusty innovation was an immediate hit." Exactly what kind of po-boys the strikers ate is hard to pin down. Newspaper articles from the 1940s indicate that roast beef, ham and cheese and fried potato were popular. Martin Brothers sold its last po-boy at the corner of St. Claude Avenue and Touro Street in 1972. In its 50-year run, the restaurant served all varieties of sandwiches. Even the originators were not purists. Mizell-Nelson cites a mid-'40s newspaper article that tells of one Martins customer "who insisted he wanted sliced bananas with ketchup and mayonnaise." (FACTIVA) FOOD Super Sandwiches TOMMY C. SIMMONS 696 words 19 January 1989 The Baton Rouge State Times 1-F English The peacemaker, la mediatrice, was New Orleanians' equivalent to bringing home roses and chocolates. Husbands who spent too long with their friends, playing cards or whatever, would stop by their favorite oyster bars on the way home and pick up an oyster loaf or oyster po boy. Certainly, no good woman could stay mad at a man who brought her a hot loaf of French bread filled with crisply fried, succulent oysters. (FACTIVA) Shopping Basket OYSTERS] AW, SHUCKS] JOIE WARNER Special to The Globe and Mail 1,048 words 30 September 1987 The Globe and Mail C11; (ILLUS) PEACEMAKER OYSTER PO BOY According to Jane and Michael Stern in their book Real American Food, the culinary legend of the oyster "po boy" is that it was once known as la mediatrice, because it was what dallying husbands brought back to assuage their wives. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, February 06, 1986 Syracuse, New York ...French dishes as shrimp Creole and la MEDIATRICE. latter is an old New Orleans.. The Daily Intelligencer Wednesday, March 12, 1986 Doylestown, Pennsylvania ...a prewarmed oven-proof casserole. LA MEDIATRICE 1 pint oysters 1 cup sliced.. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) >From Old New Orleans The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 12, 1947. p. S2 (1 page) : "LA MEDIATRICE" (For Four) 2 dozen oysters 2 egg yolks, beaten Salt and pepper Fat 1 loaf French bread Flour Dip oyster in flour. Brush them over with beaten egg yolk, which has been seasoned with salt and pepper. Now fry in hot fat for three or four minutes, until a delicate golden brown. Drain on absorbent paper. Have ready a loaf of French bread, having removed the top and the soft inside part, thus forming acase. Put a little oyster liquor into this case and set it in the oven to get thoroughly hot. Place the oysters in the loaf, garnish with a few slices of gherkins, cover with the lid, and serve hot. FOR MEN ONLY!; Some Oyster Lore, Then the Creole Husband's Secret for Making Peace with His Irate Spouse MORRISON WOOD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 9, 1949. p. A7 (1 page) : One of the most delicious oyster concoctions I know of is oyster loaf. But I much prefer the Creole designation of this dish, which is la mediatrice, meaning peacemaker. It is really a gastronomical masterpiece--fried oysters served in a hollowed-out loaf of bread, It apparently received its Creole name from two sources, as far as I can determine. WHen Louisiana parents came home from a party in the small hours, they expected their children to be worried and fretful. So they'd bring them a loaf of bread filled with fried oysters. However, the version I prefer has it that the lord and master of the household, coming home at or near dawn with a load aboard, or as the English put it "high tiddley-eye-tie," would present his irate wife with la mediatrice, which he had somehow managed to pick up on the way home. I have never tried this as a pacifier, but it sounds like a good gag. _Use Entire Loaf of Bread_ Cut off the top of the entire loaf of French bread and scoop out the inside to make a basket, leaving about 1/2 inch of crust all around. Then dip 2 dozen oysters in flour. In the meantime, beat the yolk of one egg, and season it with salt and freshly ground pepper to taste, and mix in a teaspoon of sherry. Now dip the floured oysters in the seasoned egg yolk, then in yellow corn meal. Fry them in hot fat until brown. Remove them from the fat, drain, and then place the drained fried oysters in the loaf of bread, which previously has been toasted. Lay thin slivers of dill pickles over the oysters, place the lid on the loaf, and pop it into the oven to become thoroly (sic) warm. Old New Orleans Gives Us This Tasty Oyster Loaf MORRISON WOOD. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 19, 1958. p. B4 (1 page) : Errant husbands, returning home in the wee hours [and perhaps with a guilty conscience] would stop for that same toothsome delicacy and present it as a peace offering to irate wives. It was aptly named "la mediatrice" [the Peacemaker]. "La mediatrice" of the Creoles is a refined version of an 18th century English recipe for oyster loaves and is a most savory concoction for late evening or early morning snacks. Cut off the top... (Same as above--ed.) From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 04:57:42 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:57:42 -0500 Subject: Healey's "Squeeze the rich until the pips squeak" (1974?) Message-ID: "Denis Healey" is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, but the two quotes (from 1973 and 1978) don't contain the word "squeeze." I found the below in the weekend Financial Times. OED is especially good for the 1918 "pips squeak" citation. Copyright 2005 The Financial Times Limited Financial Times (London, England) March 19, 2005 Saturday SECTION: FT REPORT - HOUSE & HOME; Pg. 16 LENGTH: 1099 words HEADLINE: Where the tax man fears to tread: Some islands are known for protecting financial assets, but beware of moving just for the accounting reasons, says Lucy Warwick-Ching: BYLINE: By LUCY WARWICK-CHING Tax havens became popular with well-heeled Brits in the 1960s and 1970s when the then chancellor Dennis (sic) Healey famously said he was going to squeeze the rich until they squeaked. Today, a steady trickle of people who have made their pile in the UK continue to up sticks and resettle offshore, while wealthy American mainlanders do the same across the Atlantic. Jersey has Nigel Mansell and Alan Whicker, while Bermuda has Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta-Jones. (GOOGLE) LETTERS ... You only have to compare Blair's ideas of a stakeholders' society with Denis Healey's statement in 1974 that 'we will squeeze the rich until the pips squeak'. ... pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr195/letters.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages CIOT | The Chartered Institute of Taxation: Taxes ancient and ... ... In 1974 Denis Healey, who had declared that he would 'squeeze the rich until the pips squeaked', increased the top rate of income tax to 98%, an even higher ... www.tax.org.uk/showarticle.pl?id=1562 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages (OED) b. Phr. to squeeze (someone) until the pips squeak (and variants): to exact the maximum payment from (someone), orig. with allusion to Germany's indemnity after the war of 1914-18 (see quot. 1918). 1918 Cambridge Daily News 11 Dec. 3/2 Sir Eric Geddes followed up his big meeting at the Guildhall on Monday night by addressing another crowded assembly in the large hall at the Beaconsfield Club on Tuesday night... Dealing with the question of indemnities, Sir Eric said: The Germans, if this Government is returned, are going to pay every penny; they are going to be squeezed as a lemon is squeezeduntil the pips squeak. My only doubt is not whether we can squeeze hard enough, but whether there is enough juice. 1929 W. S. CHURCHILL World Crisis: Aftermath ii. 47 One Minister, reproached with lack of vim, went so far as to say ?We would squeeze the German lemon till the pips squeaked.? 1933 Radio Times 14 Apr. 75/1 The Lloyd George Coalition Government..elected..on a programme of hanging the Kaiser, squeezing Germany until the pips squeaked. 1940 S. SPENDER Backward Son 64 A clarion call to the readers of the Daily Sketch to make Germany pay till the pips squeak. 1973 P. O'DONNELL Silver Mistress v. 93 We run an inquiry on a client, and we don't squeeze him till the pips squeak... We just pressure him. 1973 Times 12 Nov. 19/3 In opposition..[Labour] would tax the upper working class until the pips squeak. 1978 Times 15 Sept. 3/3 When Mr Singer was asked how the extra money was being found, he said: ?The pips are squeaking.? (LONDON TIMES ONLINE) "Until The Pips Squeak" German Indemnities In 1918, An Election Phrase Explained (Letters to the Editor) ERIC GEDDES. The Times Friday, Dec 15, 1933; pg. 15; Issue 46628; col F Sir,--Fifteen years ago, on December 11, 1918, to be exact, I made a speech in the Beaconsfield CLubHall, Cambridge, during the course of a campaign in what became known as the "Khaki Election." Language tended to be heated and exuberant in that election, the restraints of the Great War being over and the economic facts which mellow and subdue as yet unforeseen in any strength and clearness. In that speech I used a phrase which caught the fancy of the moment by giving expression no doubt to feelings and expectations which ran riot in the public mind, unaware of the disillusionment and the wisdom that the years were soon to bring. The phras was this: "squeezing Germany like a lemon until the pips squeak." It has attained unmerited longevity despite my hope that it might have died and been buried with other things born in a passionate election, which though only 15 years ago has seemed at times to be a century past. The Times, Tuesday, Feb 19, 1974; pg. 4; Issue 59018; col D Mr Healey promises action on profits of food manufacturers and retailers From Christopher Thomas. : Promising to "squeeze property speculators until the pips squeak," he (Denis Healey--ed.) said that Lord Carrington, Secretary of State for Energy, had made 10m (pounds--ed.) profit from selling agricultural land at prices 30 to 60 times as high as it would command as farming land. A Budget to complete the social contract (News) The Times Monday, Mar 25, 1974; pg. 13; Issue 59047; col A: The TUC has made clear to Mr. Herath and Mr. WIlson, in turn, that workers will moderate their wage demands only if the better off are squeezed until the pips squeak. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 21 06:16:22 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:16:22 -0500 Subject: Hail Mary shot (1965) Message-ID: A new OED draft entry: ----- Hail Mary, phr. and n. Chiefly N. Amer. Sport. A desperate play or manoeuvre having a very low likelihood of success; (Amer. Football) a long pass thrown into or near the end zone by a losing team as time is running out. Chiefly attrib. ----- The first cite is from 1972 in the Sporting News, quoting Roger Staubach, who was using the expression "Hail Mary play" a few years before his famous pass in the 1975 NFC Division Playoff game. (Barry Popik contributed this cite to the list in Dec. 2003.) But "Hail Mary shot" was used in college basketball several years before the the football usage: ----- 1965 _Ironwood Daily Globe_ (Mich.) 20 Dec. 10/4 Tom Flynn called it his "Hail Mary shot" and here's how he described it: "I just grabbed it and threw it," said the Marquette captain whose shot in the final two seconds gave Marquette a 75-74 basketball victory over Washington Saturday night and the Milwaukee Classic championship. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 06:33:41 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:33:41 -0500 Subject: Reno--Biggest Little City in the World (1910) Message-ID: I've decided to add "Biggest Little City" to my "Big Apple" website. I was typing for an hour, citing dozens of other "biggest little cities," and then I pressed the "Y!" button on Newspaperarchive and it wrote over my typed page and all my notes were destroyed. Newspaperarchive gets some Reno newspapers. Was this coined (for Reno) in 1910? The American Heritage Dictionary of Quotations has "The biggest little city in the world.--ANONYMOUS, saying, pre-1960." Duh. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 30 June 1910, Reno (NV) Evening Gazette, pg. 4, col. 1: As Jim Coffroth said upon his return to San Francisco after a day spent in the Veada metroplis: "Reno is the biggest little city in the world," which is just what Reno has been saying for many years. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) RENO--The Biggest Little City JOHN F NESS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 8, 1931. p. K18 (1 page) From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Mon Mar 21 06:40:35 2005 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Sen Fitzpatrick) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:40:35 -0500 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) Message-ID: A pity the orange didn't raise a knot on the poor photog's pate. Se?n Fitzpatrick Beer is good food http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Zimmer Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2005 13:43 Subject: A "Not!" headline (1923) OED3 gives cites for the sarcastic interjection "Not!" back to 1888, including the 1893 _Princeton Tiger_ headline found by Barry Popik ("An Historical Parallel -- Not"). Sheidlower and Lighter's 1993 _AmSp_ article gives further examples from the early 20th century. I recently came across a cite from 1923 in the _Chicago Tribune_, showing that "Not!" was common enough by then to appear in a headline of a major newspaper: ----- Chicago Tribune, Mar 25, 1923, p. A2, col. 7 Canadian Girls Spill Brownies Quintet, 18 to 8. A Good Sport -- Not! One of the poorest exhibitions of sportsmanship ever shown in this city occurred last night during the basketball game between the Uptown Brownies and the London, Ont., Shamrocks at the Broadway armory. A man named Christensen, a rooter for the Canadian team, deliberately threw an orange and hit a photographer with force enough to crush the orange and raise a large welt on the side of the operator's face. Christensen was a good sport -- not. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 21 08:03:00 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:03:00 -0500 Subject: "Berger" and other Penn State diner lingo (1926) Message-ID: The Penn State Collegian has a full digital archive from 1887 to 1940 (including its predecessor, the Free Lance, from 1887 to 1904): http://www.libraries.psu.edu/historicalcollegian/ A 1926 article on the lingo of a local diner includes "berger" for "hamburg(er) sandwich". This antedates the earliest cites for "burger" (MWCD11 1937, OED2 1939). ----- _Penn State Collegian_, Sep. 9, 1926, p. 1, col. 5 "Three Bergers, Draw One, Hat On An Apple"--New Penn State English Course. A little dictionary expansion is nothing to "Jack" and his worthy assistants who are coining a new type of chatter for Penn State lads and lassies at Jerry O'Mahoney's "Get-it-quick" Club Diner. Jack, the boy who's running the joint for Jerry, is the mint where all the slang is coined. He's revolutionizing the vernacular of the lunch room. "Burr' tose," "pitch-pie," "ruz-biff," "scup-cuffy," and "bowl-zupp" have long since served their turns. They are no more. At "Jacks" a customer is served not only food but a brand new kind of chatter that leaves him dumb with amazement. To Jack, a plate of beans is not a plate of beans at all, it is "a thousand." "Adam and Eve on a raft," he yells, and, to the customer's surprise, Morris, his man Friday, slides up two poached eggs on toast. In a like manner bread and butter is "a set up," toast is "angel food," butter is "a chip" and milk is "a glass," a hamburg sandwich is "a berger." [etc.] http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Repository/PSC/1926/09/09/013-PSC-1926-09-09-001-SINGLE.PDF#OLV0_Entity_0001_0019 ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 08:33:47 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:33:47 -0500 Subject: Specimens of Mississippi Folk-Lore (1928) Message-ID: SPECIMENS OF MISSISSIPPI FOLK-LORE Collected with the assistance of Students and Citizens of Mississippi and Edited by Arthur Palmer Hudson, M. A. Professor of English at the University of Mississippi Published under the Auspices of the Mississippi Folk-Lore SOciety 1928 Mimeographed and Printed by Edwards Brothers Ann Arbor, Mich. I hadn't posted this yet, it seems. No big surprises here. Pg. 85: I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY I'll eat when I'm hungry I'll drink when I'm dry. If the Yankees don't get me, I'll live till I die. Pg. 97: I LOOKED OVER JORDAN I looked over Jordan, and what did I see Comin' for to carry me home, A band of angels comin' atter me, Comin' for to carry me home. If you get there before I do, Comin' for to carry me home, Tell all my folks I'm a-comin' too. Comin' for to carry me home. (The origin form of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" had no chariot?--ed.) Pg. 102: TURNIP GREENS (I love food songs. It's also called "Good Old Turnip Greens" and has Ozark lyrics and 425 Google hits--ed.) Had a dream the other night-- Dreamed that I could fly, Flapped my wings like a buzzard And flew up to the sky. St. Peter stood at the Golden Gate. "From what place did you fly?" I told him from Mississippi I flew up to the sky. Pg. 103: He showed me through a telescope-- I don't know what the means-- I saw ten thousand people Living on turnip greens. They all looked so sassy, Been living above their means, And he kicked them down to the hot place For stealing turnip greens. Turnip greens, turnip greens, Good old turnip greens. Cornbread and buttermilk, And good old turnip greens. Pg. 112: Chickama Craney Crow (It's famous and probably much older--ed.) Chickama, chickama, craney crow; I went to the well to wash my toe. When I got back my black-eyed children was gone. What time is it, Old Witch? Pg. 113: William Come Tremble-Toe William come tremble toe He's a good fisherman, all of us know. Catches hens, puts 'em in pens. Some lay eggs, some lay none. Wire, brier, limberlock, Three geese in a flock, One flew east and one flew west, And one flew over the cuckoo's nest. O-U-T spells out and go, You dirty dish rag YOU. Pg. 116: Ikka bokka soda cracker Ikka bokka boo. Ikka bokka soda cracker, Out goes you. Pg. 118: A bushel of wheat and a bushel of clover, All ain't hid can't hide over. A bushel of wheat and a bottle of rum; You better look out, for here I come. Pg. 118: A tea, a tasket, A green and yellow basket. Wrote a letter to my girl, And on my way I lost it, lost it, A little doggie picked it up And put it in his pocket, His pocket, his pocket, A little doggie picked it up And put it in his pocket. Pg. 122: Little Sally Walker Sitting in a saucer, Weeping, crying. Rise, Sally, rise, And wipe your eyes, Look east and then look west, Look to the one that you love best. Pg. 122: Threading the Needle The needle's eye, just come by, And spread your love so true. Many a beau have I let go Because I wanted you. From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 21 09:03:49 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 04:03:49 -0500 Subject: Burnt Ends (Chopped Brisket) Message-ID: "Burnt ends" is not in the OED, of course. Does it come from Arthur Bryant's of Kansas City, popularized by Calvin Trillin in The New Yorker? Next to "Jacques-Imo's To Geaux" in Grand Central Terminal is "Brother Jimmy's BBQ" (www.brotherjimmys.com). On the menu is: CHOPPED BRISKET (BURNT ENDS) WESTERN CAROLINA SAUCE...9.50 SAUCES: WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA--TOMATO BASED BBQ SAUCE EASTERN NORTH CAROLINA--VINEGAR BASED BBQ SAUCE SOUTH CAROLINA--MUSTARD BASED BBQ SAUCE (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Chronicle Telegram Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Elyria, Ohio ...to show up early on days when BURNT ENDS are the special. BURNT used to go.....AND cumin: sprinkle evenly over entire BRISKET. Place BRISKET fat-side up in.. The Chronicle Telegram Wednesday, October 11, 2000 Elyria, Ohio ...not chopped (unless you've ordered BURNT ENDS, which is a story in Baked.....times (as in all day long for a big BRISKET) are constants. You can cook a.. (GOOGLE) (BURNT ENDS + BIRSKET--725 Google hits, ) Burnt Ends - Tough, smoky, bits of brisket that are pure gold ... You get burnt ends either because the brisket you?ve smoked ended up with them, or because you have taken parts of a smoked brisket and returned in to the ... bbq.about.com/od/briske1/a/aa081702a.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages BBQ FAQ Section 10.2.1 ... [What are "burnt ends" from a brisket?]. Jim McGrath and Danny Gaulden--. The burnt ends of a brisket come about two ways. ... www.bbq-porch.org/faq/10-2-1.asp - 48k - Cached - Similar pages burnt ends ... Brisket and Burnt Ends. Serves 6-8 8-lb. ... Save tapered end of brisket where grain runs opposite to rest of meat, for burnt ends (see below); slice and serve. ... www.rundogrun.com/weblog/BurntEndsRecipe.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages Brisket -- Naked Whiz Ceramic Charcoal Cooking ... If you cooked a whole brisket or just a flat, take the flat and wrap it in heavy duty foil. ... We recommend that you make "burnt ends" from it. ... www.nakedwhiz.com/brisket.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages (GOOGLE GROUPS) Restaurants In Kansas City, MO ... Barbecue_) Boyd's 'n' Son: The best brisket (and ohhh, is it good!) rated "As good as we've ever had." Hayward's Pit Bar-B-Que: the best burnt ends (yum, yum ... rec.food.restaurants - May 27 1992, 8:18 am by Kiran Wagle - 2 messages - 2 authors Best Q ... Deservedly. The brisket of beef is exquisite. Oh ... shoulder. And don't forger Hayward's Pit in Overland Park, KS for burnt ends. And ... rec.food.restaurants - May 8 1992, 1:26 pm by Kiran Wagle - 22 messages - 20 authors Fiorella's Jack Stack BBQ - Brisket ... Ribs, sausage, burnt ends, sliced brisket, Hickory Pit Beans, Cheesy Corn Bake, a rub, and a generous allotment of BBQ Sauces. Includes ... www.smokestack.com/category.asp_Q_c_E_9 - 31k - Cached - Similar pages (FACTIVA) Personal Business EDITED BY IRENE PAVE 1,358 words 11 August 1986 Business Week Pg. 79 Vol. Number 2959 (...) Arthur Bryant's Barbecue in Kansas City, Mo. (1727 Brooklyn St.), is a 60-year-old landmark. The founder's niece runs the place, browning and smoking the meat as her uncle did years ago. Some regard this as the only authentic way to barbecue, but even nonbelievers applaud the result. Dinner is about $7. Ask for the free burnt ends--they're just what they sound like and delicious. (FACTIVA) GREAT AMERICAN FOOD CHRONICLES: BARBECUE. (RESTAURANT MARKETING) By Nancy Backas 2,696 words 7 August 1989 Restaurants & Institutions 90 English (...) In the Midwest, barbecued ribs are the heartland's pride and joy, but chicken abounds, as does sausage, sliced pork, brisket, and lamb. The mecca for barbecue of all kinds is Kansas City, Mo., with more than 60 restaurants, among them the legendary Arthur Bryant's, made famous by The New Yorker writer Calvin Trillin, who called it "the single best restaurant in the world." Before his death in 1982, Bryant had cooked for Presidents Harry Truman and Jimmy Carter and Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie. Missouri barbecue oddities include "burnt ends," offered at Hayward's Pit Bar-B-Que,, Kansas City, and "snoots" (pigs' noses) at C&K Barbecue, St. Louis. (FACTIVA) FOOD GUIDE K.C. Barbecue The Standard By Which All Others Are Compared Anne Byrn Food Editor STAFF 2,023 words 6 April 1988 Atlanta Journal and Constitution W/01 English (...) Nearly everyone in this Midwestern city purports to be an expert on barbecue. And what's worse, they retain their geographic prejudice about the subject. Home boy Trillin single-handedly put Arthur Bryant's restaurant on the map. And Atlanta Journal-Constitution columnist Dick Williams claims his hometown barbecue is "so-ooo much better than Southern barbecue." Kansas City Star food editor Art Siemering describes his city's style as "a confluence of Southern and Western, a true crossroads of styles where beef brisket from Texas and pork ribs from the South get equal billing." To translate: Beef briskets in Kansas City are cooked slowly over hickory coals until the faintest ring of pink (from the smoking) and a crunchy, crusty exterior (burnt ends) forms on the outside of the meat. A pound portion of tender beef is thinly sliced, then dropped onto a slice of cushiony white bread with much the same impact a rock would have hitting a stack of tissues. Next, either the famed, gritty, brick-red Bryant's-style sauce or a sweeter version is poured over the creation. Add a handful of dill pickle slivers and another slice of white bread, and you have a handful, sort of Kansas City's version of the Carnegie Deli's corned beef sandwich. From remlingk at GVSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 12:51:46 2005 From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:51:46 -0500 Subject: Second Call for Papers: ADS at MMLA Message-ID: Second Call for Papers: Language Variation and Change in the United States The American Dialect Society, Midwest Region With the Midwest Modern Language Association 10-13 November 2005 The Pfister Milwaukee, Wisconsin We welcome papers dealing with varieties of English and other languages spoken in the United States. Presentations may be based in traditional dialectology or in other areas of language variation and change, including sociolinguistics, historical linguistics, anthropological linguistics, folk linguistics, language and gender/sexuality, language attitudes, linguistics in the schools, critical discourse analysis, or narratology. April 15, 2005 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Email submissions only. Send abstracts to: Kathryn Remlinger remlingk at gvsu.edu American Dialect Society, Midwest Secretary Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan 1-616-331-3122 Membership to ADS is recommended. Membership is $50 and includes a year's subscription to the society's journal, American Speech, and a copy of the Publication of the American Dialect Society (PADS, an annual hardbound supplement). Membership information is available at www.americandialect.org. Membership to MMLA is required. Membership is $35 for full and associate professors, $30 for assistant professors and schoolteachers, $20 for adjunct and part-time faculty, and $15 for students, retired, and unemployed. Information on membership is available at the website below or by writing to MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 1-319-335-0331. For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website, www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers," scroll down to "Associated Organizations," then to "American Dialect Society." -- Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D. Associate Professor of English: Linguistics Grand Valley State University Allendale, MI 49401 USA remlingk at gvsu.edu tel: 616-331-3122 fax: 616-331-3430 From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Mar 21 13:19:38 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:19:38 -0500 Subject: Canadian usage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > over on the newsgroup sci.lang, there's a thread on "Canadian usage" > that dismays me. it's another one of those searches for a *language > essence*, in this case what is truly canadian -- shared generally by > canadians and not shared with other groups... > the problem is that this is *sci.lang*, and the participants are > supposed to know something about language... sci.lang is an unmoderated newsgroup, and is therefore, nearly by definition, pretty much a pointless read. I pop in once in a while in the hopes that it'll be worthwhile, but the Esperanto and spelling reform wars drive me away pretty quickly every time. A sci.lang.moderated, OTOH--which i am *not* (nor will i ever) volunteering to moderate--could be interesting. -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Mar 21 14:29:12 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:29:12 -0500 Subject: State of Youth Slang In France In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've heard Dominican women of the same age, speaking in English, call each each other "mi'ja" (a contraction of "mi hija," meaning "my daughter") as a term of endearment; in fact, I've heard them address their own mother with the word! Can't say I've heard Dominican men/boys use "mi'jo" to each other, but I don't happen to be acquainted with any bilingual Dominican men. I know that Dominicans often call each other "mami" and "papi" as a term of endearment, regardless of age and relationship (witness "Big Papi," the nickname given to David Ortiz of the Boston Red Sox). But as far as I know, none of these terms is used across gender boundaries. All of which is to say, I guess, that Spanish family relationship terms are frequently generalized to terms of endearment by Dominicans, which may help to explain the phenomenon Grant observed, though it doesn't explain the gender- bending aspect of the usage. Joanne Despres On 20 Mar 2005, at 7:15, Grant Barrett wrote: > On Mar 19, 2005, at 21:51, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Does anyone remember the movie filmed in NYC, > > "Kids," from ca. 1995? There is a scene in which > > the protagonist says to his friend, "Nigger, what > > you doin' lookin' at my mama tittie?" The people > > who appear in this scene are all white. > > I recently saw and heard three young Latinas on the NYC subway, > outbound from Manhattan, refer to each other as "son." Odd enough to > hear 13-year-old Dominican boys say it to each other (as you can > witness on the NYC baseball fields almost any Summer weekend day), but > between girls? > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Mar 21 15:19:41 2005 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:19:41 +0100 Subject: Sign language town In-Reply-To: <20050321143430.C27612477@post.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Interesting article in the New York Times about a town "built around American Sign Language, where teachers in the new school will sign, the town council will hold its debates in sign language and restaurant workers will be required to know how to sign orders." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/national/21deaf.html?pagewanted=1&th Paul ________________________ Paul Frank Chinese-English translator paulfrank at post.harvard.edu http://languagejottings.blogspot.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 21 16:14:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:14:59 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? Message-ID: 1996 Truman Smith The Wrong Stuff (rpt. Norman: U. of Okla. Press, 2002) 28: Somebody before us had recognized the problem and had attempted to solve it with some jury-rigged, jill-farted extension levers that stuck up out of the control console like four random sticks jammed into a puddle of mud. Jill-farted ? ? "Misbegotten" ? ? Google offers nothing. Presumably this comes one way or another from "jill-flirted." Smith, born in 1923, grew up near Ponca City, Okla. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 16:29:09 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:29:09 -0500 Subject: jill-farted ? ? In-Reply-To: <20050321161459.26005.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Surely a misundertanding of "jillflirted." Look under "gillflirted" in DARE. It's clearly from 'jill' (=female), indicating vaginal injury, but the general sense of "messed up" is well-established. Used it myself in my youth. Don;t say it no more, specially up here in Michigan, cause folk look at me funny (well, funnier). dInIs >1996 Truman Smith The Wrong Stuff (rpt. Norman: U. of Okla. Press, 2002) 28: >Somebody before us had recognized the problem and had attempted to >solve it with some jury-rigged, jill-farted extension levers that >stuck up out of the control console like four random sticks jammed >into a puddle of mud. > >Jill-farted ? ? "Misbegotten" ? ? Google offers nothing. > >Presumably this comes one way or another from "jill-flirted." > >Smith, born in 1923, grew up near Ponca City, Okla. > >JL > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian and African Languages Wells Hall A-740 Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA Office: (517) 353-0740 Fax: (517) 432-2736 From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Mon Mar 21 18:25:38 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:25:38 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin or date of origin of the term "social interaction"? Thank you, Kathy Seal From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:20:05 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:20:05 -0800 Subject: Canadian usage In-Reply-To: <423EC9EA.1080604@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 21, 2005, at 5:19 AM, David Bowie wrote: > sci.lang is an unmoderated newsgroup, and is therefore, nearly by > definition, pretty much a pointless read. > > I pop in once in a while in the hopes that it'll be worthwhile, but the > Esperanto and spelling reform wars drive me away pretty quickly every > time. i read very selectively. i have a kill-file, and also kill entire threads. and skim through the rest. occasionally there's something of interest. i'll forward a cute exchange from a week or so ago. > > > A sci.lang.moderated, OTOH--which i am *not* (nor will i ever) > volunteering to moderate--could be interesting. undoubtedly. who would ever volunteer as moderator, though? there are some *seriously* contentious people posting now. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:20:09 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:20:09 -0800 Subject: Fwd: article from sci.lang Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Greg Lee >> Newsgroups: sci.lang >> Subject: Re: Criticisms of "a" >> Date: 13 Mar 2005 01:23:22 GMT >> >> Miguel Carrasquer wrote: >>> On 12 Mar 2005 13:25:29 -0800, gugobsn2718 at hotmail.com >>> wrote: >> >>>> Hello, I'm currently working on a research paper about the word >>>> "a." I >>>> need to find any material I can that expresses an opinion about "a" >>>> as >>>> used by an author. >> >>> Google for "a", then see if any opinions are expressed among >>> the 8 billion hits. >> >>> What the hell is a research paper about the word "a"???? >> >> Maybe he's just working on an article. > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:38:33 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:38:33 -0800 Subject: "your guys's" (2nd person pl. poss.) In-Reply-To: <20050309024941.32899.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 8, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > The amusing 2004 film, _Napoleon Dynamite_ features a poor nerd > antihero who says the following: > > "Could I use your guys's phone for a sec ?" > > The plot is set in the town of Preston, ID, which happens to be the > birthplace of cowriter Jared Hess (b. 1979). > > Google turns up nearly 7,000 hits for "your guys's," so I think we can > consider it real. (That's twice as many hits as for "you guys's," > though the former group may be swollen artificially by references to > the film.) > > Me, I say "your. i'll forward some exchanges between me and john singler on this usage, from last month. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:40:01 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:40:01 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: singler's reply to my initial e-mail: Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 23, 2005 3:08:36 PM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > When this came up in my undergraduate socio class a few weeks back, > Sonya--one of the TA's--pointed out that there is variation in > pronunciation between [gayz] and [gayzIz]. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:10 pm > Subject: on the possessive front > >> noticed at the BLS meetings: a commenter on the Walker/Mpiranya >> paper >> referred repeatedly to "your guys' analysis" 'the analysis that >> you >> guys put forward'. then this morning i heard Barry Bonds use this >> possessive (referring to the reporters) in his press conference. >> >> plenty of examples to be found on the net. some people use an >> apostrophe (as in the first example below), but many eschew >> punctuation >> (as in the other two): >> >> StangNet Forums - Tranny went, need your guys' help asap... >> forums.stangnet.com/showthread. php?goto=lastpost&t=532844 >> >> ... [DSL] Verizon PA sucks, really need your guys help! Ok, so I >> originally had a westell 2200 in my house and replaced it with a >> Versalink 327W. ... >> www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12577506~mode=flat >> >> ... hey i just bought your guys cd it rocks I love disco >> mothafucka ... >> haha i love your guys band name...it makes me happy. your music >> rocks!! >> thanks for ... >> www.myspace.com/thepenfifteenclub >> >> > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:40:57 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:40:57 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: message 3: a brief response from me to singler: Begin forwarded message: > From: Arnold M. Zwicky > Date: February 23, 2005 3:23:22 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Cc: Philipp Angermeyer , Tommy Grano > , Tom Wasow > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > > On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:08 PM, you wrote: > >> When this came up in my undergraduate socio class a few weeks back, >> Sonya--one of the TA's--pointed out that there is variation in >> pronunciation between [gayz] and [gayzIz]. > > the spoken examples were monosyllabic. i'd guess that the examples > written without an apostrophe are too. no way to tell about the > examples written with an apostrophe. > > arnold > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 20:42:54 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:42:54 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front Message-ID: message 4, the last: from singler to me... Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 27, 2005 8:58:14 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > Google reports 2370 hits of "your guyses" and 2220 of "you guyses." A > number of the "you guyses" tokens are not possessives; they simply > reflect a pronominal form. > (Remember when we thought the forms of pronouns in American English > were I/me, you, he/him, she/her, it, we/us, they/them, and maybe > yall?) > John > > Some examples > Your guyses > i need your guyses help hi all just dropped in im from chicago and > was just > wondering . . . > > thats wierd...cuz like... your guyses guy cusins/bros dont want > you to have bfs or anything or talk to guys [on a list for South-Asian > Americans) > > I wish my name was as cool as your guyses! > > You guyses as possessive > [Many of these hits repeat the same passage indicating that > Pittsburghers think of it as a Pittsburghism] > You hear "you guyses," and don't think twice. (Example..."you guyses > house is > nice"). - > > You guyses as non-possessive > What my question is, is do any of you guyses do pool running? > > ... You guyses have an amazing candy sound. > > Since my MOM threw away my MICROPHONE, I need you guyses help! > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 21 22:02:59 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:02:59 -0800 Subject: Safire on "nukular" Message-ID: Safire's "On Language" column of 3/20/05 has a segment on "nucular" that strikes me as pretty confused. It also fails entirely to mention Geoff Nunberg's book _Going Nucular_ and the piece that gave the book its title (not to mention the various Language Log postings that have discussed this pronunciation; Googling on "nucular" and "Language Log" will get you the references). I would have thought that the title of Geoff's book would be a pretty clear hint that the pronunciation "nucular" was going to be discussed somewhere in the volume. Instead, Safire asked for Steve Pinker's advice, and Steve came up with a metathesis account -- Safire dutifully defines "metathesis" and indicates its pronunciation -- that can't be the whole story. Here's how he gets into it: ---- Many of us replace an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes (the smallest units of speech sounds) with a familiar one. The only other common word that rhymes with _nuclear_ is the unfamiliar _cochlear_. But in our spectacular language, there are dozens of words like _secular_, _vascular_, _jocular_ and _molecular_, and our brains are tempted to make _nuclear_ fit that familiar pattern. ----- Problem 1, a minor annoyance: "the smallest units of sounds" isn't going to elucidate the notion of "phonemes" to anyone who doesn't already know what phonemes are. It's just baffling. Problem 2, more serious: "an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes". As Geoff points out in his book, the /li at r/ at the end of "nuclear" isn't at all unfamiliar to or difficult for speakers of English: comparatives like "pricklier" are unproblematic and show no inclination towards being reshaped. The problem with "nuclear" isn't phonological but morphological, and that's why words in "-cular" /kyul at r/ are relevant; they appear to have some sort of root ending in "c" /k/, followed by morphological elements "ul" /y at l/ and "ar /@r/, or perhaps an indivisible "ular" /y at l@r/. (Back on 7/3/04, in fact, Alison Murie suggested on ADS-L that "nucular" might be a reanalysis in which the root is the word "nuke", and the word "nucleus" isn't involved at all. And Geoff entertains a similar idea in his article, noting that this would predict a difference between "nuclear" in things like "nuclear family" and "nucular" in things like "nucular weapons".) Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second (as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. Problem 4, another mere annoyance. Safire is being sloppy when he says that "nuclear" rhymes with "cochlear". It doesn't, because the accented vowel /u/ of "nuclear" doesn't match the accented vowel /o/ or /a/ of "cochlear". ( If *they* "rhyme", then so do "noodles" and "models".) Rhyme involves a matching between accented vowels and everything that follows them. The pair "nuclear"/"cochlear" is a kind of almost-rhyme, in which everything that follows the accented vowels matches. Almost, but definitely no cigar. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 21 22:22:32 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:22:32 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: arnold, Cut Pinker a break; he doesn't know anything about language. It's Safire who should be excoriated (cool word!) for asking a psycho instead of a linguini about language. dInIs PS: I also almost had an accident when I read that Pinker called it "metathesis"! For nonlinguists (e.g., Pinker), it appears to mean something like "sounds aren't in their expected (i.e., standard) order and/or some goodies are stuck in or took out. >Safire's "On Language" column of 3/20/05 has a segment on "nucular" >that strikes me as pretty confused. It also fails entirely to mention >Geoff Nunberg's book _Going Nucular_ and the piece that gave the book >its title (not to mention the various Language Log postings that have >discussed this pronunciation; Googling on "nucular" and "Language Log" >will get you the references). I would have thought that the title of >Geoff's book would be a pretty clear hint that the pronunciation >"nucular" was going to be discussed somewhere in the volume. > >Instead, Safire asked for Steve Pinker's advice, and Steve came up with >a metathesis account -- Safire dutifully defines "metathesis" and >indicates its pronunciation -- that can't be the whole story. Here's >how he gets into it: >---- >Many of us replace an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes (the smallest >units of speech sounds) with a familiar one. The only other common >word that rhymes with _nuclear_ is the unfamiliar _cochlear_. But in >our spectacular language, there are dozens of words like _secular_, >_vascular_, _jocular_ and _molecular_, and our brains are tempted to >make _nuclear_ fit that familiar pattern. >----- > >Problem 1, a minor annoyance: "the smallest units of sounds" isn't >going to elucidate the notion of "phonemes" to anyone who doesn't >already know what phonemes are. It's just baffling. > >Problem 2, more serious: "an unfamiliar sequence of phonemes". As >Geoff points out in his book, the /li at r/ at the end of "nuclear" isn't >at all unfamiliar to or difficult for speakers of English: comparatives >like "pricklier" are unproblematic and show no inclination towards >being reshaped. The problem with "nuclear" isn't phonological but >morphological, and that's why words in "-cular" /kyul at r/ are relevant; >they appear to have some sort of root ending in "c" /k/, followed by >morphological elements "ul" /y at l/ and "ar /@r/, or perhaps an >indivisible "ular" /y at l@r/. (Back on 7/3/04, in fact, Alison Murie >suggested on ADS-L that "nucular" might be a reanalysis in which the >root is the word "nuke", and the word "nucleus" isn't involved at all. >And Geoff entertains a similar idea in his article, noting that this >would predict a difference between "nuclear" in things like "nuclear >family" and "nucular" in things like "nucular weapons".) > >Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. >Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with >primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second >(as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable >would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), >yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, >because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is >assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" >words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more >parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. > >Problem 4, another mere annoyance. Safire is being sloppy when he says >that "nuclear" rhymes with "cochlear". It doesn't, because the >accented vowel /u/ of "nuclear" doesn't match the accented vowel /o/ or >/a/ of "cochlear". ( If *they* "rhyme", then so do "noodles" and >"models".) Rhyme involves a matching between accented vowels and >everything that follows them. The pair "nuclear"/"cochlear" is a kind >of almost-rhyme, in which everything that follows the accented vowels >matches. Almost, but definitely no cigar. > >arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 00:54:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:54:54 -0800 Subject: jill-farted ? ? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Not me. JL Kathy Seal wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Kathy Seal Subject: Re: jill-farted ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone know the origin or date of origin of the term "social interaction"? Thank you, Kathy Seal --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 22 00:58:09 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:58:09 EST Subject: "Spring forward/ahead, Fall back" (1957, by L.A. Examiner?) Message-ID: In a message dated Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:15:04 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM cites: > Does Fred Shapiro have "spring ahead/spring forward, fall back"? It's > one of the most popular of American saying, but is usually not quotation > books. > > Walter Winchell's 1957 citation of the Los Angeles Examiner is > interesting When I was in elementary school (1953-1959) I had a subscription to a children's magazine entitled "Jack and Jill". I distinctly remember encountering the mnemonic "Spring forward, fall back" in this magazine, specifically in the column that appeared each month under the pseudonym "Finnie the Office Goldfish". - Jim Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Mar 22 01:10:02 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:10:02 EST Subject: "Best man for the job" Message-ID: My daughter helped judge a high school Academic Team tournament. One question was to name the first female Cabinet member. She says it doesn't bother her that nobody got Frances Perkins (Secretary of Labor under FDR), but why did every single team come up with Condaleeza Rice? Didn't Albright and Reno make any impression on today's high school students? Which leads to a question: was the saying "She's the best man for the job" invented for Perkins (by FDR?), or was it already in existence when FDR nominated Perkins? OT: Front page of today's Wall Street Journal has an whazzat headline: "Rice arrives in China". There is hope; the Republicans and the Democrats agree on one thing, namely that we do not need a white male as Secretary of State. - Jim Landau From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 01:10:50 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:10:50 -0800 Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Interesting collection, Arnold. Abhorrent, but interesting. Now "You-guys's" is starting to look relatively old-fashioned to "me-guys" (1,753 Google hits)*. *(Just kidding ! But I bet for a second you were paralyzed with fear ! ) JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Fwd: on the possessive front ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- message 4, the last: from singler to me... Begin forwarded message: > From: John V Singler > Date: February 27, 2005 8:58:14 PM PST > To: john.singler at nyu.edu > Subject: Re: on the possessive front > > Google reports 2370 hits of "your guyses" and 2220 of "you guyses." A > number of the "you guyses" tokens are not possessives; they simply > reflect a pronominal form. > (Remember when we thought the forms of pronouns in American English > were I/me, you, he/him, she/her, it, we/us, they/them, and maybe > yall?) > John > > Some examples > Your guyses > i need your guyses help hi all just dropped in im from chicago and > was just > wondering . . . > > thats wierd...cuz like... your guyses guy cusins/bros dont want > you to have bfs or anything or talk to guys [on a list for South-Asian > Americans) > > I wish my name was as cool as your guyses! > > You guyses as possessive > [Many of these hits repeat the same passage indicating that > Pittsburghers think of it as a Pittsburghism] > You hear "you guyses," and don't think twice. (Example..."you guyses > house is > nice"). - > > You guyses as non-possessive > What my question is, is do any of you guyses do pool running? > > ... You guyses have an amazing candy sound. > > Since my MOM threw away my MICROPHONE, I need you guyses help! > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 22 01:43:30 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:43:30 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Even us blue-collar (or is it blucular?) dudeses can see that Arnold is on the money. Looks like the ball was fumbled. Is it known that "nucular family" doesn't occur [often]? I'll be listening for it now; it won't surprise me when I hear it. -- Doug Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Tue Mar 22 02:00:14 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:00:14 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <53401.24.225.220.222.1111340756.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutge rs.edu> Message-ID: >I assume Doug is referring to a 1951 L.A. Times citation, which is not >mentioned in Michael Quinion's piece (he mentions two 1954 cites from >Newspaperarchive). The 1951 article is interesting, in that it doesn't >mention "Brownies" (or capitalize the term), instead relating "brownie >points" to the older sense of "brownie" as an elfin spirit: > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Mar 15, 1951, p. A5 >Brownie Points--a New Measure of a Husband >By Marvin Miles > >I first heard about them when the chap standing next to me in the elevator >pulled a letter from his pocket, looked at it in dismay and muttered: >"More lost brownie points." >Figuring him for an eccentric, I forgot about them until that evening when >one of the boys looked soulfully into the foam brimming his glass and said >solemnly: >"I should have been home two hours ago ... I'll never catch up on my >brownie points." >Brownie points! What esoteric cult was this that immersed men in pixie >mathematics? >"What are you talking about?" I asked. >"Brownie points," he said. "You either have 'em or you don't. Mostly you >don't. But if you work hard you sometimes get even. I never heard of >anyone getting ahead on 'em. >"Are you feeling all right?" >"Sure, sure. I'm just worried about my points, that's all." >"What's this genie geometry all about?" >"You don't know about brownie points? All my buddies keep score. In fact >every married male should know about 'em. It's a way of figuring where you >stand with the little woman -- favor or disfavor. Started way back in the >days of the leprechauns, I suppose, long before there were any doghouses." >[...] >"If a leprechaun figured out brownie points," I mused, "you can bet it was >a girl leprechaun, some scheming sprite who wanted to tie up her guy's >conscience in addition and subtraction -- mostly subtraction." >----- > >So if the Brownie system of merits/demerits is the ultimate source of the >expression, then there were at least two subsequent reinterpretations: >"brownie" as a euphemism for "brown-nosing", and "brownie" in the elfin >sense. (Or, as Michael mentions, these could all be reinterpretations of >the voucher system of the Curtis Publishing Co.) That's right, that's the earliest I've seen. When etymologizing I believe in trying to account for the earliest instances first (unless there's a question of anomaly or discontinuity). "Brownie points" in this piece are units of a wife's favor; in subsequent items they are notional units of somebody's (boss's, teacher's, etc.) favor. The derivation from a point awarded to a Brownie (junior Girl Scout) is not unbelievable IMHO. One can picture the Brownie (a little girl of age 7 or so, I think) helping Mom with the garden or the sewing and getting a point toward a merit badge or something like that. Then if Dad helps Mom, he gets a (jocular) point too. And if he does something to accommodate his boss, he gets a similar (sarcastic) point in the eyes of his (jealous?) co-workers. A reasonable speculation, but so far not substantiated, apparently ... please correct me if substantiation is available. Here is an alternative speculation for consideration. It is inferior to the above speculation in that the candidate etymon is not exactly "brownie point"; it is superior to the above and to the railroad and magazine stories presented by Michael Quinion in that the candidate etymon is known to have existed and to have been familiar to the general public. During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and blue. A pound of sirloin steak might cost (say) 40 cents, a pound of hamburger 25 cents, a pound of chicken 50 cents [expensive!] ... but to buy the pound of sirloin one might need to submit 12 brown points, while the hamburger might require 6 brown points per pound but the chicken required no points. So theoretically no matter how affluent you were, if you had no brown points you couldn't have any beef (although you could eat a lot of chicken). [Of course there were all kinds of complications and one could of course circumvent the system.] There was also a scheme to encourage conservation of grease (which was used for various purposes): one could take a pound of accumulated kitchen grease to the meat market and sell it for 4 cents plus 2 brown points, apparently. There are hundreds of instances of "brown point" in this sense at N'archive from 1943-4. Generally the food ration points could not be stored up: they expired after a certain interval (often 1 month, I think). In 1944 (I think), the food rationing system was dropped and all talk of ration points abruptly ceased. But it is not impossible that "brown point" was slightly modified to "brownie point", perhaps reinterpreted as related to Girl Scouts or otherwise. One can imagine various types of jokes or sayings which might have provided a bridge: e.g., "Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor ... no brown points, no meat tonight." Note that it would have been the men who typically might have made such remarks, while it was mostly the women who would have dealt with the brown stamps (no stamps were required in the military AFAIK). Only a speculation: maybe not even the best one. ---------- _Times Recorder_ (Troy NY), 16 Dec. 1943: p. 24: <> ---------- _Gettysburg [PA] Times_, 25 Feb. 1944: p. 3: <<"But say," Chick Klein exclaimed, "the way I feel now -- well, I'm not as young as I used to be, but I hope the brown points hold out. I'm going to be needing a lot of steaks when we start training at Wilmington.">> ---------- -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Mar 22 10:00:36 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:00:36 -0000 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050321011907.02fd7590@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote > During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of > food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a > rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified > number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were > issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and > fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and > blue. I've also just found a reference to something called War merit points at that time, which young people could earn by being helpful; 500 of them would get them a War Patriot's Certificate. So the idea of points was most definitely in the air, though so far I've only found a reference to this particular sort of point from Alabama, so it might have been a local initiative. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Mar 22 12:50:51 2005 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:50:51 -0500 Subject: Student eggcorns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll readily admit that I'm still not entirely clear on the boundaries between eggcorns and other related items, but here's a couple from a student paper, both on the very first page. The beauty of these is that they're both spell-check-proof, too. The first one: "UCF students come from a variety of diverse *back rounds* and ethnicities." The other one--though i'm not sure if this is an eggcorn or building a new verb: "As *I fore mentioned*, my study began with ..." Like i said, there's a couple ways of analyzing that one--either "I fore mentioned" (with /aj/-monophthongization) from "aforementioned", or "fore mentioned" as a verb backformed from "aforementioned" (with a space added to satisfy the spell-check routine). -- David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Mar 22 15:05:55 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:05:55 -0500 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: <423FECC4.17286.5F1762@localhost> Message-ID: >Douglas G. Wilson wrote > >> During WW II, in 1943 and 1944, there was a system of rationing of >> food, gasoline, tires, shoes, etc., in the US. In order to buy a >> rationed item one would have to pay its price AND fork over a specified >> number of ration "points" in the form of stamps or tokens (which were >> issued to the citizen or household by the government). For meats and >> fats there were red and brown points, for some other foods green and >> blue. > >I've also just found a reference to something called War merit points >at that time, which young people could earn by being helpful; 500 of >them would get them a War Patriot's Certificate. So the idea of >points was most definitely in the air, though so far I've only found >a reference to this particular sort of point from Alabama, so it >might have been a local initiative. > >Michael Quinion ~~~~~~~~~~~ I well remember the ration books, stamps & points for meat, canned goods,gas, & some clothing. I don't remember "brownie points" being used in this connection, which of course doesn't mean anything in itself, not least because I don't remember hearing the expression at all until years later. Whatever its ultimate derivation, I daresay its connotation probably varies a lot from user to user. When I hear it (or use it), it suggests contempt & I assume a connection to "brown nose." BTW that grease we recycled during WWII was mostly used for the making of glycerin, I believe. A. Murie From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Mar 22 15:36:14 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:36:14 -0600 Subject: Brownie points In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pds at VISI.COM Tue Mar 22 19:23:58 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:23:58 -0600 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050322155302.63D0A4CC6@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<<< --Tom Kysilko From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 19:48:16 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:48:16 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. Just a suggestion. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college >grad, female, >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This may >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - but >maybe not. > >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of >recovery. <<<< > >--Tom Kysilko From pds at VISI.COM Tue Mar 22 20:09:24 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:09:24 -0600 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050322194820.3487E49C4@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... they're all like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." Maybe it's just me, --Tom Kysilko Quoting Wilson Gray : > Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. > Just a suggestion. > > -Wilson Gray > > >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > >grad, female, > >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This > may > >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - > but > >maybe not. > > > >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical > >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they > all > >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged > (her > >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of > >recovery. <<<< > > > >--Tom Kysilko > > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 20:34:21 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:34:21 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, I'm with you all the way. It just struck me as really, really, really weird that replacing "that" with "like" makes that sentence feel so much better. As one of my old profs used to say, "How can this *be*?!" -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Kysilko >Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... >they're all >like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." > >Maybe it's just me, >--Tom Kysilko > >Quoting Wilson Gray : > >> Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence feels. >> Just a suggestion. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >> >The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college >> >grad, female, >> >with a name that suggests that she may have origins in South Africa. This >> may >> >be a case of an omitted word between "are" and "that" - such as "agreed" - >> but >> >maybe not. >> > >> >>>>> [O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her >>full medical >> >history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they >> all >> >are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged >> (her >> >cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of >> >recovery. <<<< >> > >> >--Tom Kysilko >> >> From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 20:49:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:49:39 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang Message-ID: Coal-miner's cocaine = OxyContin : p.50, Mar 28, 2005 issue of Time. A funny thing, I've been using oxycodone for the past quarter-century and I'm not addicted. ;-) -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 21:01:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:01:21 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: Wiley Miller's syndicated panel cartoon "Non Sequitur" of March 3, 2005 depicts a Dilbert-like office worker blowing a huge police whistle and inducing an apparent heart attack in a older coworker. A third employee observes, "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a euphemism...." In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, IIRC. Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live TV. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 22 21:04:20 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:04:20 -0800 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: But, then, you're not a coal-miner. This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: New (to me) slang ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coal-miner's cocaine = OxyContin : p.50, Mar 28, 2005 issue of Time. A funny thing, I've been using oxycodone for the past quarter-century and I'm not addicted. ;-) -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Mar 22 21:05:52 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:05:52 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: <20050322210420.44966.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > But, then, you're not a coal-miner. > > This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. "Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps equally factitious, term for this. Jesse Sheidlower OED From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 22 21:34:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:34:08 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When you come across a slang term for the first and ofttimes the only time in the NYT magazine - hillbilly heroin - or in Time - coal-miner's cocaine - it probably makes sense to take it with a grain - or perhaps a box - of salt. -HWG >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >Subject: Re: New (to me) slang >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> But, then, you're not a coal-miner. >> >> This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. > >"Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps >equally factitious, term for this. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Tue Mar 22 21:44:19 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:44:19 -0800 Subject: "social interaction" Message-ID: Can anybody help me find the time when "social interaction" became a phrase used in English? My impression is that it's a relatively recent locution but a friend wants to use it in a novel taking place in the 1930s. Any help is appreciated! Kathy KATHY SEAL Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Mar 22 23:30:15 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:30:15 -0500 Subject: "social interaction" Message-ID: The term was in use in the social sciences prior to that time, but had not yet achieved popularity. Scientists have used the term at least since 1920: <> E.L. Talbert, "The Role of Investigation in the Making of a Municipal University," The Scientific Monthly, vol. 11, no. 2, at 151, 157 (Aug. 1920). Accordingly to Westlaw, the phrase (including "social interactions") has been used in 1,133 legal opinions. The earliest was in 1959, the next earliest in 1969. I would say that you are right to be leary of "social interaction" as a phrase used in the 1930s, unless there is some scientific connection. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Kathy Seal Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:44 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "social interaction" Can anybody help me find the time when "social interaction" became a phrase used in English? My impression is that it's a relatively recent locution but a friend wants to use it in a novel taking place in the 1930s. Any help is appreciated! Kathy KATHY SEAL Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Mar 23 00:44:04 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:44:04 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <20050322210122.43570.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This just points up the urgent need for Congress to pass a law establishing a speed limit on semantic evolution. It shouldn't be allowed to occur at a speed any faster than I can keep up with! :) Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:01 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Wiley Miller's syndicated panel cartoon "Non Sequitur" of March 3, 2005 > depicts a Dilbert-like office worker blowing a huge police whistle and > inducing an apparent heart attack in a older coworker. A third employee > observes, > > "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is > just a euphemism...." > > In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes > with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is > quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. > > The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, > IIRC. > > Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on > live TV. > > JL > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:27:42 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:27:42 -0800 Subject: the preposition "bar" Message-ID: from a handout at a stanford linguistics presentation 3/22/05: ... can therefore function as potential antecedents (bar other mitigating conditions)... ----- i would have written "barring". outside of "bar none" and the quotation "it was all over bar the shouting" and (i now see) "bar N" (for some number N) 'except for N horses' in betting slang, this preposition was, i had thought, no longer in use. the most recent cite in the OED Online is from 1870. but here it is in the writing of a young woman (a new zealander, for what that's worth). and the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language mentions it twice, without comment, in lists of prepositions and exceptive expressions, suggesting that huddleston and pullum (both speakers of british english) think it has more general use. this is the very devil to google for, needless to say. has anyone been tracking this? arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:32:03 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:32:03 -0500 Subject: re-ogling Message-ID: I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just observed: "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to the "oogling" variant. And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right interpretation first time through? Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession Larry From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Wed Mar 23 01:33:34 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:33:34 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments from members there. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307759 My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Sam Clements From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 01:43:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:43:07 -0500 Subject: the preposition "bar" In-Reply-To: <4ca7986f9393ce660c9458a512255252@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 5:27 PM -0800 3/22/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >from a handout at a stanford linguistics presentation 3/22/05: > >... can therefore function as potential antecedents (bar other >mitigating conditions)... > >----- > >i would have written "barring". outside of "bar none" and the >quotation "it was all over bar the shouting" Is this really extant in the U.S.? I gather it's normal in the UK, Australia, et al., but I've only ever heard "all over but the shouting" in these parts. Prepositional "bar" is pretty much restricted in the varieties of English with which I'm intimate to the "bar none" construction, although I'm unlikely to have hung out in the appropriate circles to have been exposed to the horse-betting slang. I agree that "barring" would be unremarkable in all these contexts, including that in the handout. Larry >and (i now see) "bar N" >(for some number N) 'except for N horses' in betting slang, this >preposition was, i had thought, no longer in use. the most recent cite >in the OED Online is from 1870. but here it is in the writing of a >young woman (a new zealander, for what that's worth). and the >Cambridge Grammar of the English Language mentions it twice, without >comment, in lists of prepositions and exceptive expressions, suggesting >that huddleston and pullum (both speakers of british english) think it >has more general use. > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 23 01:47:37 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:47:37 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <200503222033.1e4240c775d2@rly-na02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: I call them "snow globes." And in a young adult novel, published in 2003, it says: "She picks up one of my snow globes and shakes it. Silver snow falls on four tiny fiddlers in Nashville. Dad still brings me a globe every time he goes on a business trip. No CDs or T-shirts of video games-- I get snow globes." (from "not As Crazy As I Seem" by George Harrar, Graphia Books, 2003.) So at least to that writer, "snow globes" is the current term. Patti Kurtz SClements at NEO.RR.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Sam Clements >Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > >Sam Clements > > -- Freeman - Long day? Straker - Long month! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 23 02:15:18 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:15:18 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Snow-globes. We had some on the whatnot shelf, as a paperweight on the desk, on the hall table, and elsewhere around the house in the '40's and '50's. -Wilson Gray >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Sam Clements >Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > >Sam Clements From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Wed Mar 23 03:37:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:37:59 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? Message-ID: While idly cruising through today's New York Times sports section, I metaphorically drove into a foot-deep pothole. In an article by Lee Jenkins titled "Stopping, Popping Those Jerseys" (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/sports/ncaabasketball/22uniforms.html), four paragraphs from the end, I blew my suspension on the following: >>>>> Power forwards who muscle inside for contested dunks are more likely to grab two fistfuls of fabric and thrust them forward violently. And when midmajor teams claim landmark victories, it is not uncommon to see the captain with his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping it in front of fans. <<<<< "Pulling it taught"?! Is anyone watching the store there? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 04:16:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:16:15 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights with the fake snow inside." Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were others at a similar loss for words? JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = from members there. = http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Sam Clements --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:18:10 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:18:10 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MW 11 and AHD 3, the ones I have on hand, give /o/ as in toe, go, first, followed with /a/ as in mop. Unfortunately for us sub Mason-Dixoners, no /u/as in google is given as an option. Damn. More dialect retraining. Speaking of which, or more accurately, writing of which, did anyone happen to see the PBS News Hour piece on dialect retraining in Prestonburg, KY late last week? I betcha they say /ugl/, and it seems that they are going to have to learn to do better. JCS Laurence Horn writes: > I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader > of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just > observed: > > "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" > > --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now > that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the > factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the > difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to > the "oogling" variant. > > And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in > Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right > interpretation first time through? > > Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession > > > Larry > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stalker at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:34:25 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:34:25 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note the adjectives: hillbilly and coal miner. These seem to be the current default bottom of the barrel sociolinguistic labels. I recognize that the alliteration is a factor as well. But surely those more widely versed in ethnic and regional derogatory labels could come up with alternate ethnic and regional groups that would satisfy the alliteration requirement. So can we speculate from these two examples that those poor folks in KY (see previous post) really do need dialect retraining to avoid the status of hillbilly or coal miner? JCS Wilson Gray writes: > When you come across a slang term for the first and ofttimes the only > time in the NYT magazine - hillbilly heroin - or in Time - > coal-miner's cocaine - it probably makes sense to take it with a > grain - or perhaps a box - of salt. > > -HWG > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jesse Sheidlower >> Subject: Re: New (to me) slang >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >> >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 01:04:20PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> But, then, you're not a coal-miner. >>> >>> This phr. is also new to me, and sounds somewhat factitious. >> >> "Hillbilly heroin" is a more widely distributed, if perhaps >> equally factitious, term for this. >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Mar 23 04:44:49 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:44:49 -0800 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <200503221301.1ddQvekf3NZFpA0@mx-a065a05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person who is large. BB -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a euphemism...." In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, IIRC. Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live TV. JL From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 04:21:16 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:21:16 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <000601c52f48$5581d510$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments >from members >there. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. I can't remember what word (if any) we used for those in my childhood. I asked two local persons born since 1985, and "snowglobe" was the immediate and unequivocal answer from both. I asked what it was called if it wasn't spherical but rather like a dome: they said it was a snowglobe anyway. Quick lookaround shows "snowglobe", "snowdome", "snowstorm toy", and (maybe only one instance) "shake-em-up snow scene" from 1975. I haven't found anything much before 1970, so I'm probably missing the earlier word(s). -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 04:54:22 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:54:22 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? In-Reply-To: <20050322221957.H97642@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: At 10:37 PM -0500 3/22/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote: >While idly cruising through today's New York Times sports section, I >metaphorically drove into a foot-deep pothole. In an article by Lee Jenkins >titled "Stopping, Popping Those Jerseys" >(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/22/sports/ncaabasketball/22uniforms.html), >four paragraphs from the end, I blew my suspension on the following: > >>>>> >Power forwards who muscle inside for contested dunks are more likely to grab >two fistfuls of fabric and thrust them forward violently. And when midmajor >teams claim landmark victories, it is not uncommon to see the captain with >his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping it >in front of fans. > <<<<< > >"Pulling it taught"?! Is anyone watching the store there? > Now, now, Mark. These *are* scholar-athletes we're talking about. Of course they're taught. The question is whether they larn. L From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 05:12:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:12:53 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:44:49 -0800, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >who is large. BB But "antonym" doesn't quite fit the bill either. I'm not surprised that "oxymoron" was pressed into service for this figure of speech, since the rhetorical term "antiphrasis" is only known to pointyheads. http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Figures/A/antiphrasis.htm See this post for antiphrastic nicknames from the Spanish-American War: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502A&L=ads-l&P=R8497 --Ben Zimmer From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 05:16:35 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:16:35 -0500 Subject: New (to me) slang In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Note the adjectives: hillbilly and coal miner. These seem to be the current >default bottom of the barrel sociolinguistic labels. I recognize that the >alliteration is a factor as well. But surely those more widely versed in >ethnic and regional derogatory labels could come up with alternate ethnic >and regional groups that would satisfy the alliteration requirement. So can >we speculate from these two examples that those poor folks in KY (see >previous post) really do need dialect retraining to avoid the status of >hillbilly or coal miner? I don't know that "coal miner" is comparable to "hillbilly". I suppose a coal miner makes a pretty good wage nowadays, and mining would seem to me to be a respectable occupation. I doubt that the typical coal miner would have any objection to being called a coal miner. On the other hand, I suspect that just about anybody referred to *in seriousness* as a hillbilly would object, and point [farther] out into the hills where the *real* hillbillies might be found. I suppose that the two terms for oxycodone are both factitious. I surely never heard either around these parts, despite the hills and coal mines (south of Pittsburgh) and despite the fact that oxycodone abuse/addiction is an everyday routine thing here (as elsewhere, I suppose): it's just the prosaic "wants some Perks", "wants some Oxycon". "Hillbilly heroin" is at least a partially apt metaphor since oxycodone is grossly similar to heroin pharmacologically AFAIK; the other metaphor is invented from double naivete, I think. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 05:21:43 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >who is large. BB Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and "huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? (I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) Larry >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Jonathan Lighter > > "How many times do I have to tell you, Ralph ? Whistle-blower is just a >euphemism...." > >In my day, soon after the invention of humor, we concluded similar jokes >with the phrase "just a figure of speech." The framing talk balloon is >quite big enough to contain the longer phrase. > >The use of "euphemism" to mean "synonym" has already been commented on, >IIRC. > >Cf. "allegory," currently used almost exclusively to mean "metaphor" on live >TV. > >JL From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 06:18:24 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:18:24 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: Sam Clements: >You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball on a = >stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused the = >snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > >We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some comments = >from members there. = >http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > >My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900-1950 = >period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. Jonathan Lighter: > >Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three generations of >my family called 'em "those paperweights with the fake snow inside." Heh. I checked the script for _Citizen Kane_, since Kane picks one up in the "Rosebud" scene. The script calls it "one of those glass balls which are sold in novelty stores all over the world"! http://corky.net/scripts/citizenKane.html Newspaperarchive suggests that variations on "snow-scene paperweight" or "snow-storm paperweight" were common in the pre-1950 period... Fitchburg Sentinel Wednesday, November 08, 1922 Fitchburg, Massachusetts ...St Tel. 1129. PAPER WEIGHT, glass with SNOW SCENE, Tel. 2771.. Bridgeport Telegram Wednesday, December 09, 1925 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...according to size to Main lot SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS. They were last seen.....realistic SNOW STORMs inside used tor PAPER WEIGHTS 50c.. Appleton Post Crescent Tuesday, December 18, 1928 Appleton, Wisconsin ...those glass PAPERWEIGHTS depicting a SNOW STORM or an angel In flight. Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune Wednesday, August 16, 1933 Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin ...the spherical PAPERWEIGHT with the SNOW-STORM inside that stood on her desk.. Ruthven Free Press Wednesday, February 21, 1934 Ruthven, Iowa ...check under a glass PAPERWEIGHT with a SNOW SCENE .. Iowa City Press Citizen Thursday, December 01, 1938 Iowa City, Iowa ...51.25 Chrome Butter Dish .51.50 SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS 50c.. Nebraska State Journal Sunday, March 19, 1939 Lincoln, Nebraska ...Wedgwood. Dresden figures. SNOWSCENE PAPER-WEIGHTS.. Berkshire Evening Eagle Thursday, April 08, 1943 Pittsfield, Massachusetts ...CARDS for tho hoys in wrvloc SNOW SCENE PAPER WEIGHTS.. Syracuse Herald Journal Thursday, October 14, 1943 Syracuse, New York ...SNO-SCENE PAPER- WEIGHTS Fascinating PAPERWEIGHTS.. Nebraska State Journal Wednesday, June 14, 1944 Lincoln, Nebraska ...flowers 1.00 to 15.00. PAPER WEIGHT "SNOW SCENE" type.. Clearfield Progress Friday, November 17, 1944 Clearfield, Pennsylvania ...by "KLETNERT c Best Shield Made SNOW SCENE PAPER WEIGHTS 79c .. Sheboygan Press Wednesday, November 22, 1944 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...hundreds of Gift Suggestions SNOWBALL PAPER WEIGHT .89c. Sheboygan Press Monday, December 17, 1945 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...l.00 box Ripple and Vellum long SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS...89c.. Mansfield News Journal Monday, December 16, 1946 Mansfield, Ohio ...young who is not intrigued with a SNOW BALL PAPER WEIGHT? Berkshire Evening Eagle Friday, December 20, 1946 Pittsfield, Massachusetts ...5-Year genuine 2.50 to 4.95 SNOWSTORM PAPER WEIGHTS........ 69c Bridgeport Telegram Monday, October 20, 1947 Bridgeport, Connecticut ...flurry whenever you wishl .SNOWBALL PAPER WEIGHTS in assorted designs. Dixon Evening Telegraph Saturday, December 13, 1947 Dixon, Illinois ...CHRISTMAS GIFT FRANK DEUTSCH SNOW STORM PAPER WEIGHTS.. --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 06:34:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 01:34:48 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: >>?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >>someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >>who is large. BB > >Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an >oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and >"huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a >silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of >these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? A "flesh name"? According to Wiktionary (yikes), "sarconym" is a term for the meat of a particular animal (beef, mutton, venison, pork). But they label this a "protologism", their term for "a word which has only recently been devised": . >(I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh >rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) Likewise, "contronym" is already taken, as it's Richard Lederer's designation for a word that's its own antonym (aka "Janus word", "antagonym", "autoantonym", etc.). I'd stick with good old "antiphrasis", even if it doesn't have a catchy "-nym" form (antiphrastonym?). --Ben Zimmer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 08:25:18 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:25:18 EST Subject: How you start/How you finish (1919); "Hanka's Table" in today's New York Times Message-ID: "IT'S NOT HOW YOU START, IT'S HOW YOU FINISH" ... The New Jersey Nets now have a five-game winning streak. Jason Kidd checked his deodorant ("Winning is the best deodorant") .. and then provided another clutch sport cliche. This is probably from horseracing, later made popular by the Broadway musical SEESAW (1973). The Nets next play Memphis on Thursday, and expect them to play with heart, miles and miles and miles of heart:: ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/sports/basketball/23nets.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/sports/basketball/23nets.html) As for the three-game homestand the Nets kicked off Tuesday night, Kidd conceded, "This homestand is big for us." And the winning streak? "It couldn't come at a better time," he said. "It's not how you start. It's how you finish." ... ... HOW YOU START + HOW YOU FINISH--4,280 Google hits, 167 Google Groups hits WGERE YOU START + WHERE YOU FINISH--4,450 Google hits, 262 Google hits ... (GOOGLE) _http://www.hollywoodlitsales.com/cf/journal/dspJournal.cfm?intID=1843_ (http://www.hollywoodlitsales.com/cf/journal/dspJournal.cfm?intID=1843) I'm a big football fan. I've watched enough games in my life to pick up all the cliches and superstitions the announcers, coaches and players talk about. My two favorite are : "I'd rather be lucky than talented" and "It's not how you start, it's how you finish." ... (GOOGLE) _http://vikesgeek.blogspot.com/2004/12/its-not-how-you-start-but-how-you.html_ (http://vikesgeek.blogspot.com/2004/12/its-not-how-you-start-but-how-you.html) Saturday, December 25, 2004 "It's Not How You Start But How You Finish. . . " Coaches love to trot out the pat cliches. In part, this is the result of the reporters' need for a quick take. Realizing that the reporter can/will only use the juiciest part of the interview, coaches simply do the editing for the reporters and try to ensure that what comes out the other end is a sanitized, safe statement. But coaches also resort to cliches to explain away the inexplicable and the unforeseen. And it is in this respect that Vikings' head coach Mike Tice has so often trotted out the refrain that "it's not how you start, but how you finish that matters." ... (GOOGLE) _http://www.nodanw.com/biographies/dorothy_fields.htm_ (http://www.nodanw.com/biographies/dorothy_fields.htm) Working with Cy Coleman, Dorothy Fields' career got a fresh wind. She stepped easily into the seedy world of the Fan-Dango Ballroom and the musical _Sweet Charity_ (http://www.nodanw.com/shows_s/sweet_charity.htm) - surely as far from Fred and Ginger as one can get? Her last hit song was from her second collaboration with Coleman, _Seesaw _ (http://www.nodanw.com/shows_s/seesaw.htm) (1973). Fittingly, it was entitled 'It's Not Where You Start, It's Where You Finish'. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2okISQrVGPtosH22mSNWdonEA5e2xgIlNg==) Wednesday, October 23, 1912 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+where+you+start+and+where+you+fin ish+AND) ...doesn't make any difference WHERE YOU START, or WHERE YOU FINISH when YOU've.....Bt. lyonls, <'liy. (imaha, itiutiuijuo AND I >a.vciipoi't, AND oilier whore ten.. ... _Bee _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2nhDmuRKWxjKIFdROiQJOXi7Ek+EMOTAAEIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 17, 1927 _Danville,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:danville+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Virginia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:virginia+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...or years What counts is not HOW YOU START, but HOW YOU FINISH, as proved by.....SALE Bow badly we all want s. Utopia AND HOW readily we will listen to man.. ... _Bridgeport Standard Telegram _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2uYzjZQsXXWUKMpi09uQE2F+JpT0dnhYR0IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, February 28, 1919 _Bridgeport,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bridgeport+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Connecticut_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:connecticut+how+you+sta rt+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...Bantam. They tell YOU it isn't HOW YOU START but HOW YOU FINISH .that counts.....other was washing the gore from hANDs AND face AND body AND feeling to see if.. ... _Lincoln Star _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2ukm7vWP2Pnx/EBVmH0Msh5VLV5dv1efAkIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 17, 1927 _Lincoln,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Nebraska_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...define than What counts is not HOW YOU START, but HOW YOU FINISH, as proven by.....He explaine< the economy of. the plan AND sHOWed HOW it "will profit in th.. ... _Mansfield News Journal _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2hJQI6QRzqDc3mXE0xAova0Mf0xxQpgAiUIF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, May 07, 1953 _Mansfield,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND ) ...vrith Arearo Bntler matter HOW- YOU START so HOW- YOU FINISH. We beat Yanks.....will play a Famer as a first sacker AND broth-.season after winning 16 AND.. ... _Trenton Evening Times _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2vhrjeXc9AzaFEq+2Tt+etbOnBG3+70Zy0IF+CsZYmrz) Thursday, February 27, 1919 _Trenton,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:trenton+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) _New Jersey_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new jersey+how+you+start+and+how+you+finish+AND) ...They tell YOU It isn't HOW YOU START but HOW YOU FINISH that counts.....HANDLING MADE IMA I Crouch Attack AND HOW to Use Head to Puzzle Opponents.. ... _Daily Times News _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2kwzfLmLH2TSHxfV8/mnybWpc4zW1ehoEUIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Burlington,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:burlington+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _North Carolina_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north carolina+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...auto race tracks isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that can.....Arises To Coaching Move students AND the school booster organization have.. ... _The Odessa American _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3YGl/Jks4m6KID/6NLMW2uC1ZWijy1bNIRRPkysmFYE8HivETzQsmEIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 02, 1972 _Odessa,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:odessa+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Texas_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:texas+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND ) ...I said 'it doesn't matter WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH. have to say.....AND four- time winner Betsy who carded AND Judy who had a 76. who braved rain.. ... _Oshkosh Daily Northwestern _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2nIQTazNo9TO8AhgXVk89pv4FDCTfkQy10IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Oshkosh,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:oshkosh+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Wisconsin_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+where+you+start+and+wh ere+you+finish+AND) ...race tracks that says, isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that counts.....Fred AND Leonard, all of Neshkoro, AND Ewald, Westfield; 11 grANDchildren.. ... _Lima News _ (http://www.newspapera rchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2qeGzeGT0yh+XJ/ApX8HJz/xw3Q5EHWiAkIF+CsZYmrz) Sunday, July 02, 1972 _Lima,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...I said 'it doesn't matter WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH.' "I'd have.....near the state's flood disaster area AND USAC AND track officials bickered.. ... _Washington C H Record Herald _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2ht1/dLKuEZP5GPOUrl42/b4/sUbuj/T+kIF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Washington Court House,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:washington court house+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Ohio_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) ...race tracks that j isn't WHERE YOU START I but WHERE YOU FINISH that 1 can.....hero's i Darrell Upp in the hurdles AND Of 17.5 seconds AND a first ini e.. ... ... _Ironwood Daily Globe _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2re7Rk3Dns4XnlkTcRB2eRpSSzADCEye80IF+CsZYmrz) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Ironwood,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ironwood+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _Michigan_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:michigan+where+you+start+and+where+yo u+finish+AND) ...tracks that says. "It isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that counts.....son of Mr. AND Mrs. Gordon Lake Sr.. AND David Brown, son of Mr. AND Mrs.. ... _The Daily Report _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2iSXslgQUoiW8VgQpBp7aleTLn8WtnEupw==) Friday, April 10, 1970 _Ontario,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:ontario+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+AND) _California_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:california+where+you+start+and+where+you+finish+A ND) ...auto race tracks that isn't WHERE YOU START but WHERE YOU FINISH that can.....AND re- turn to the Forum next Friday AND Sunday. While the Lakers AND Hawks.. ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _FINISH THE JOB._ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=330217272&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111565663&client Id=65882) The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Apr 20, 1920. p. II4 (1 page) : How you start is important, very important, but in the end it is how you finish that counts. ... The victor in the race is not the one who dashes off swiftest, but the one who leads at the finish. ... In the race for success speed is less than stamina. ... (...) --Forbes Magazine. ... _Notes of the Game_ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=369544632&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111565412&clie ntId=65882) Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 7, 1920. p. 15 (1 page) : "It isn't where you start the season, but where you finish," remarked George Burns today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- ... OT: "HANKA'S TABLE" IN TODAY'S NEW YORK TIMES ... HANKA'S TABLE? Not the hot dog? This gets a feature story in the New York Times? Like no one has ever done a book on Polish food before? ... I couldn't be more depressed. ... ... _http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/dining/23hanka.html_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/dining/23hanka.html) Holiday Tribute to the Homeland By _FLORENCE FABRICANT_ (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=FLORENCE FABRICANT&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=FLORENCE FABRICANT&inline=nyt-per) Published: March 23, 2005 FOOD can provide sustenance even when the cupboard is bare. Memoirs of food in times of privation have been written about places as far-flung as Russia, China, Eastern Europe and the American West. And now Hanka Sawka, a Polish immigrant, has added her voice to this canon, recalling the hearty soups and rich cakes that families managed to serve, especially for holidays like Easter, despite shortages under the Communist regime In her book, "At Hanka's Table" (Lake Isle Press, 2004), which she wrote with her daughter, Hanna Maria Sawka, Mrs. Sawka shines a spotlight on her life in Poland and the strong emotional ties her native country still holds for her, even after nearly 30 years of living in the West. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 09:43:39 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 04:43:39 EST Subject: Smartness of whips & steel traps (1868 and 1826) Message-ID: SMART AS A WHIP-- 14,600 Google hits, 2,550 Google Groups hits SMART AS A STEEL--163 Google hits, 45 Google Groups hits MIND LIKE A STEEL--8,050 Google hits, 6,720 Google Groups hits STEEL TRAP MIND--579 Google hits, 383 Google Groups hits ... David Letterman's show on Tuesday had the lovely Jessica Alba lasso him. He followed this up with the next guest, who was an author who discussed string theory and the origin of the universe. It was like booking trained monkeys followed by Einstein on the same show. ... Jessica Alba was smart as a...whip? Smart as a steel trap? A whip can smart, but is it smart in and of itself? Who would win if you book a whip and a steel trap on JEOPARDY!? If your whip gets stuck in a steel trap, how smart is that? ... I haven't checked Early American Newspapers or Literature Online yet. ... ... (OED) (steel trap) 1735 SOMERVILE Chase III. Argt., The *Steel-Trap described. 1775 [see _SPRING-GUN_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=smart+as+a+&first=1&max_to_show=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id =xgjS-HhfHjK-5971&control_no=50236729&result_place=5&xrefword=spring-gun) 1]. 1827 Hone's Every-day Bk. II. 906 The stranger..is in jeopardy of falling into the..fangs of a steel-trap. 1872 _MRS. STOWE_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-s5.html#mrs-stowe) Oldtown Fireside Stories 57 She was a little thin woman, but tough as Inger rubber, and smart as a steel trap. 1899 A. M. BINSTEAD Gal's Gossip 127 He posted sentinel, bright and ready as a new steel-trap. 1921 _D. H. LAWRENCE_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-l.html#d-h-lawrence) Tortoises 32 Little old man, Scuffling beside her..Parting his steel-trap face, so suddenly and seizing her scaly ankle. 1937 _E. S. GARDNER_ (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-g.html#e-s-gardner) Case of Dangerous Dowager i. 8 You're going up against a crook who is smart as a steel trap. 1972 Publisher's Weekly 17 Apr. 19/1 He's rather amused by what he calls his steeltrap memory. ?I have a tight grip on things in inverse proportion to their importance.? ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... _CITY INTELLIGENCE.; OUR DELEGATION TO CHARLESTON. Departure of the Nashville Who was on Board, and a Hint at what they Suffered. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=79175064&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111568379&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 19, 1860. p. 8 (1 page) : The reporter of the _Herald_, who is buttonholeing "honorable gentlemen," and who looks as smart as a steel-trap--is welcome to _all_ the news, "exclusive" and all. ... _PERSONATING GOULD'S SON.; THE PEOPLE ON STAMFORD TURN OUT TO SEE THE YOUNG MAN. _ (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=100927518&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1111569306&clientId=65882) New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 9, 1887. p. 1 (1 page) : Besides Johnny Simpson said it was Mr. Gould, and everybody here knows that Johnny Simpson is Mrs. Simpson's son and just as smart as a whip. ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) ... _Wilmingtonian And Delaware Advertiser _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2jhutOd4Ad+wTE5SB/B+er36Yq7yt+q+gEIF+CsZY mrz) Thursday, April 20, 1826 _Wilmington,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:wilmington+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) _Delaware_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:delaware+smart+as+a+stee l+trap+AND) ...to put your sheeps eyes on. SMART AS A STEEL-trAp, she'll do the business for.. ... Pg. 1, col.5: There's Miss Wilhelmina Scroggins, just about sixteen. She;s the girl to put your sheeps eyes on. Smart as a steel trap, she'll do the business for you, and make a mason of you. ... ... _Constitution _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2h6FUUtxVrYsjqWCJB+BY7R+C/D8AbE0ug==) Tuesday, January 11, 1876 _Atlanta,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:atlanta+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) _Georgia_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:georgia+smart+as+a+steel+trap+AND) ...A vis in this section, AS SMART AS A STEEL trAp cAn cut put Any of the.....heArt, of us to clo his Su he mAy the SMART, Betley lie's A hundred. And.. ... _Decatur Daily Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=olJOpJH/3rKKID/6NLMW2sPSuzjNllzwsTh1EWObh+kRXo9KEVIjaw==) Wednesday, March 24, 1886 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...rebuking him. She wAfl A girl And SMART AS A. WHIP. goes A person who bAg.. ... _Daily Era _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2nM/LzxMe8RXM+4etaSOsLFddz5sfzuTIkIF+CsZYmrz) Saturday, September 18, 1886 _Bradford,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bradford+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Pennsylvania_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...She- is About eleven yeArs of Age And SMART AS A WHIP. The Absence of Prof.. ... _Freeborn County Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2hviI+PXffgYY7CU81j31uhwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, November 28, 1883 _Albert Lea,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:albert lea+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Minnesota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:minnesota+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...And sech; A reAl high-flyer he wAS, SMART AS A WHIP, climbin' every where.....And them dAys. "Mis' Mills wAS A SMART womAn And A womAn, with lots of.. ... _Standard _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=0Hv62RLHvjKKID/6NLMW2udSM0f4A+Q5CAxokQkiFuJwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, November 28, 1883 _Albert Lea,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:albert lea+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Minnesota_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:minnesota+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...And sech; A reAl high-flyer he wAS, SMART AS A WHIP, climbin' every where.....country And them dAys. Mills wAS A SMART womAn And A womAn, with lots of.. ... _Decatur Republican _ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=n9tPhCVbEnaKID/6NLMW2vT1H6Y5z1fcO/A18wqyL2VwUONAFOFcSQ==) Wednesday, March 24, 1886 _Decatur,_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:decatur+smart+as+a+whip+AND) _Illinois_ (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+smart+as+a+whip+AND) ...rebuking him. She wAfl A girl And SMART AS A. WHIP. goes A person who bAg.. ... ... (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Who was she?, or, The soldier's best glory Whittlesey, Elsie Leigh. There was some discussion here back in January about fanciful slang coinages that appeared in the comic strip "For Better Or For Worse" ("gig", roadside", etc.): http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0501d&L=ads-l&D=0#54 The "Comics Curmudgeon" site considers another FBoFW coinage: "foob" (a blend of "fool" and "boob"): . "Foob" appeared in FBoFW on Mar. 22 and Mar. 23, but it's apparently been used several times in past strips (by tweener April and her friends). Unlike "gig" and "roadside", "foob" seems like it could actually catch on. One contributor to the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics.strips last June said that he had used "foob" in the past "merely as a more insulting, patronizing form of 'feeb'". It also suggests "foobar", of course. Here are links to the two recent strips (note also the pluralization of "doofus" as "doofi" in the Mar. 23 strip): http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050322.html http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050323.html --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 23 10:50:49 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:50:49 -0500 Subject: "Foob" Watch Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:15:59 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Here are links to the two recent strips (note also the pluralization of >"doofus" as "doofi" in the Mar. 23 strip): > >http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050322.html >http://www.comics.com/comics/forbetter/archive/forbetter-20050323.html The first appearance of "foob" (and its explanation as a blend of "fool" and "boob") can be found on this page (scroll down to May 24-25, 2004): http://www.fborfw.com/strip_fix/archives/2004_05.php Oddly, the May 25 strip also uses "prag", which is quite inappropriate for anyone familiar with the HBO series _Oz_, set in a maximum-security prison. "Prag" was a slang term made up by the show's writers, defined by this site as "an inmate who is under the control of another inmate": http://www.angelfire.com/ny/oz4life/lingo.html In the case of FBoFW, "prag" is apparently a blend of "pain" and "drag". --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 13:16:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:16:55 -0800 Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) Message-ID: "Fox & Friends" (Fox News Channel), about five minutes ago: "This kid in Minnesota...assassinated all those students." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 23 13:47:17 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:47:17 -0500 Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Jonathan Lighter >Subject: assassinate = murder (anyone) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"Fox & Friends" (Fox News Channel), about five minutes ago: > >"This kid in Minnesota...assassinated all those students." I musta missed some reports, if they stated that the kid had used hashish. OTOH, perhaps the statements that he was a 'goth' qualify him as a member of a secret society of evil-doers, with implications of substance abuse... Then again, if he was severely delusional, he mighta thought that all of his victims were just figments of his imagination, mere characters in his personal psychodrama. In which case, could the Fox commentator be implying that this was 'character assassination'? Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 14:31:21 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:31:21 -0800 Subject: "diva" = notorious woman Message-ID: Fox News Live, about twenty minutes ago: "Will the ACLU get these drug-dealing divas back on the street ?" 13 million "diva / divas" hits on Web alone, many of them evidently in this sense. This word seems to have begun mutating about 15 years ago, as I recall, but there's usually been a strong connotation of positive celebrity involved. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 15:26:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:26:01 -0500 Subject: "euphemism" = metaphor or figure of speech In-Reply-To: <18123.69.142.143.59.1111559688.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: At 1:34 AM -0500 3/23/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:21:43 -0500, Laurence Horn >wrote: > >>>?Last night, I heard what seems like a similar shift for "oxymoron" where >>>someone used it to mean anytonym. The word was "tiny" referring to a person >>>who is large. BB >> >>Well, I'm not sure that would count as an antonym anymore than an >>oxymoron. "Tiny giant" would be an oxymoron, while "tiny" and >>"huge" would plausibly be antonyms. But calling a giant "tiny" (or a >>silent person "Gabby", and similar cases) don't really fit either of >>these categories--what we have here is a...sarconym? > >A "flesh name"? According to Wiktionary (yikes), "sarconym" is a term for >the meat of a particular animal (beef, mutton, venison, pork). But they >label this a "protologism", their term for "a word which has only recently >been devised": . I hereby retract that suggestion, which was faute de mieux at best, especially now that we have the mieux. > >>(I'd suggest "ironym", but I've already nominated that for "Welsh >>rabbit", "Jewish penicillin", and similar examples.) > >Likewise, "contronym" is already taken, as it's Richard Lederer's >designation for a word that's its own antonym (aka "Janus word", >"antagonym", "autoantonym", etc.). also "antilogy" (cf. the Linguist List archive on "Words that are their own opposites", a.k.a. "The longest thread"), as well as "enantionym", proposed on this list by Lynne Murphy and me.* >I'd stick with good old "antiphrasis", even if it doesn't have a catchy >"-nym" form (antiphrastonym?). > Indeed. I should have known the Greeks would have a word for it. larry *Now that I review my files (reproduced below), I see that Lynne and I settled worked out that designation in a semi-offline exchange, which is why it doesn't show up on google. So I hereby repropose it, for the "cleave", "sanction" type of case. Note the date of this exchange--you'd think there were other things that might have on our mind at the time... ======== From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: enantiosemy To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU --On Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:01 pm +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: ...and antilogies, my favorite. (Sorry, nothing to offer on "enantiosemy".) Yes, I've got that one noted as well--although I have no idea why it would be anyone's favorite! Lynne ======= Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:49:13 +0800 To: Lynne Murphy From: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: Re: enantiosemy Lynne, ...Why NOT "antilogy"? There's "anti-", and there's Xlogy, a standard stem for words with an X character; compare "tautology" (lit. 'same word'), "haplology", etc. Of course -nym is even more standard in this use, but "antinym" clearly won't do. I would actually vote for "enantionymy" and "enantionym", if that's a possible choice, but you have to admit "anti-" is a more recognized prefix, although "enantio-" more clearly denotes (or "should" denote) oppositeness, as opposed to againstness. L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:06:05 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:06:05 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? Message-ID: Some years ago a man teaching a course here on baseball in literature asked me if the library could get 25 copies of "Babe Ruth caught in a snowstorm", by John Alexander Graham (Boston, Houghton Mifflin, 1973), describing it as the best baseball novel ever written. He wanted each of his prospective students to have a copy to take home. I found a copy in the Brooklyn Public and read it myself. If he had described it as the worst baseball novel ever written he would have come closer, in my opinion. In any event, the title refers to a snowglobe with a figure of Babe Ruth in it, which figures throughout the book. As it turned out, I managed to acquire no copies of this book. Nonetheless, I'm sure it is available in better libraries everywhere; it's just that in this instance Bobst is an abjectly inferior library. If anyone has access to a copy, you might check for what this object is called. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:16 pm Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights with the > fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I never > noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were others > at a similar loss for words? > > JL > Sam Clements wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------- > ------------ > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > You know. Those things that your grandmother had, the glass ball > on a = > stand, that had stuff inside that, when inverted or shaken, caused > the = > snow to fall through the liquid, perhaps around a scene. > > We have a column by Unca Cecil over at Straight Dope and some > comments = > from members there. = > http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=3D307759 > > My question is: What were these things commonly called in the 1900- > 1950 = > period, and are they known as something else in the last 20 years. > > Sam Clements > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. > From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:44:09 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:44:09 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion Message-ID: Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > >-Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >this in do time. >Delia Do tell! From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 23 16:56:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:56:33 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <5b9b3625b9b32d.5b9b32d5b9b362@nyu.edu> Message-ID: I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation informant judgment. She replies as below. Larry ============== >What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >upside-down and then put them back right side up again? uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:17:22 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:17:22 -0500 Subject: milkshaking Message-ID: This word has been appearing frequently of late in the horseracing news in the [New York] Daily News; "Milkshaking " is the illegal administration of a mixture of bicarbonate of soda, sugar and electrolytes to a horse in hopes of reducing fatigue, thus enhancing its performance. Daily News, February 10, 2005. This noxious-sounding mixture, which will no doubt catch on among us bipeds now that steroids are under a cloud, is called a milkshake. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From rshuy at MONTANA.COM Wed Mar 23 16:05:35 2005 From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:05:35 -0600 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: <200503231645.j2NGjNON011922@barbelith.montana.com> Message-ID: on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > >> >> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >> this in do time. >> Delia > > Do tell! > And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible maturity benefits. From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 17:25:35 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:25:35 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <20050323041615.82333.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights > with the fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I > never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were > others at a similar loss for words? > > JL Yes, me too. I can't remember what we called them; even 'paperweight' doesn't help, because I don't think they were used in that way among my family and acquaintances. They were purely decorative, and I associate them with Christmas. It has seemed really strange to me that I couldn't remember a name for them, because they were very familiar. I've been watching out for references in recent years and have seen only 'snowglobe' and 'waterglobe' (sometimes hyphenated or open), as far as I can remember right now, with 'snowglobe' the more common name. They're often featured in mail-order gift catalogues (e.g. Smithsonian, Boston Museum, Metropolitan Museum); I guess people collect them now. No one I knew of "collected" them years ago -- you just had one that was displayed especially during the holidays. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:31:20 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:31:20 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:56 AM 3/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation >informant judgment. She replies as below. > >Larry >============== > >>What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >>sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >>that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >>upside-down and then put them back right side up again? > >uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" >first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, >actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. That's a great elicitation question, Larry! (Or should I say "illicitation," as many of my students do?) From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:27:26 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:27:26 -0500 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:05 AM 3/23/2005 -0600, you wrote: >on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Beverly Flanigan > > Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--> - > > > > Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: > > > >> > >> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I > >> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community > >> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a > >> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes > >> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just > >> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on > >> this in do time. > >> Delia > > > > Do tell! > > >And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity >leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible >maturity benefits. I hadn't even noticed that one! But since I'm fast on your heels, I fondly hope for the same. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 17:40:29 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:40:29 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I asked my 20-year-old daughter, to obtain a younger-generation informant judgment. She replies as below. Larry ============== >What do you call those glass- or plastic-covered novelty items they >sell in souvenir shops that have tourist scenes inside with fake snow >that settles slowly back down on the scene when you turn them >upside-down and then put them back right side up again? uh oh, i'm not sure if i thought of "snow globes" or "snow domes" first. but i would call them snow globes if i was actually talking, actually snow domes sounds really wierd in comparison. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Wed Mar 23 17:42:42 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:42:42 -0600 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <000601c52f48$5581d510$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 18:02:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:02:09 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I also associate them with Christmas. Have they become more upscale in recent decades ? The only ones I recall seeing as a boy were small and plastic, obviously intended to appeal to children. Now, of course, they can be quite large and pricey. JL Victoria Neufeldt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Don't know about pre-1950, but during that decade three > generations of my family called 'em "those paperweights > with the fake snow inside." > > Industry insiders undoubtedly knew what to call them, but I > never noticed "snowglobe" *or* "snowdome" till the 1980s. > > The level of my benightedness is not in dispute. But were > others at a similar loss for words? > > JL Yes, me too. I can't remember what we called them; even 'paperweight' doesn't help, because I don't think they were used in that way among my family and acquaintances. They were purely decorative, and I associate them with Christmas. It has seemed really strange to me that I couldn't remember a name for them, because they were very familiar. I've been watching out for references in recent years and have seen only 'snowglobe' and 'waterglobe' (sometimes hyphenated or open), as far as I can remember right now, with 'snowglobe' the more common name. They're often featured in mail-order gift catalogues (e.g. Smithsonian, Boston Museum, Metropolitan Museum); I guess people collect them now. No one I knew of "collected" them years ago -- you just had one that was displayed especially during the holidays. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 18:40:29 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:40:29 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050322231107.02fdd0c0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: The earliest citation in M-W's files for "snowglobe" is 1986, and for "snowdome" is 1990. However, here's an interesting (solo) cite for "snowstorm": Pleasanter it is to contemplate such franker, non-injurious toys as the miniature 'snowstorm' in its water-filled glass glove containing a white sediment which, when the glove was shaken, swirled around in a manner uncommonly like the real thing. In each globe there was fixed an object on which the 'snow' could settle, a chalet or castle for choice, before which stiffly stood a tiny figure flying a balloon of coloured cork. . . . Not that many of the real old 'snowstorms' can have survived the stress of years and frequent shakings, if only because the 'castle' had a knack of coming adrift from its foundations and whirling around its little world in a manner unbefitting any soberly disposed fortress. p. 153 F. Gordon Roe Victorian Furniture Roy Publishers, Great Britain 1952 Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Wed Mar 23 19:15:37 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:15:37 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <424171CD.3448.A62E790@localhost> Message-ID: Oops! Forgot to check the OED. And guess what -- sense 2 of "snow-storm" is defined as "a paperweight or toy in the form of a transparent dome or globe containing a representation of a scene and loose snow-like particles, which, when shaken, creates the appearance of a snow-storm." Quotations supporting this definition range from 1926-1975. I have to think that this term was more common in British English than American, given our lack of citations and the absence of the word from any of the unabridged dictionaries (unless W3's sense 2 "something resembling a snowstorm" counts -- but I don't think it does). Joanne Despres From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Wed Mar 23 19:16:52 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:16:52 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I didn't follow the earlier thread, but I've always said [ag at l]. I don't think I've ever heard [og at l], in fact, in either Minnesota or Ohio--not that the word is in common use. First listing in the dictionaries, huh??? At 11:18 PM 3/22/2005, you wrote: >MW 11 and AHD 3, the ones I have on hand, give /o/ as in toe, go, first, >followed with /a/ as in mop. Unfortunately for us sub Mason-Dixoners, no >/u/as in google is given as an option. Damn. More dialect retraining. > >Speaking of which, or more accurately, writing of which, did anyone happen >to see the PBS News Hour piece on dialect retraining in Prestonburg, KY late >last week? I betcha they say /ugl/, and it seems that they are going to >have to learn to do better. > >JCS > >Laurence Horn writes: > >>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>observed: >> >>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >> >>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >>the "oogling" variant. >> >>And on a different topic, did anyone else who saw this headline in >>Sunday's N. Y. Times have trouble coming up with the right >>interpretation first time through? >> >>Bomb Kills 3 Iraqi Policemen in Procession >> >> >>Larry > > > >James C. Stalker >Department of English >Michigan State University From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 19:40:52 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:40:52 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. Alan Baragona From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Mar 23 19:48:57 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:48:57 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050323141323.032142c0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, dInIs >Laurence Horn writes: > >>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>observed: >> >>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >> >>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to the "oogling" variant. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Mar 23 19:53:25 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:53:25 -0000 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: > Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great > minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not > in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations > (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 20:19:43 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:19:43 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Just found this on a British web site called Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/338.html). Does anyone know this book and whether it is authoritative? GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE -- "Often quoted in jest today, this saying originated in the seventeenth century as the comic-sounding 'Great wits jump.' Daubridgecourt Belchier first recorded the saying in 'Hans Beer-Pot' (1618) as 'Good wits doe iumpe (agree).'...The expression 'Great minds jump' appeared in the late 1800s..." From "Wise Words and Wives' Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New York, 1993). Alan B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Quinion" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 2:53 PM Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Does anyone know the origin or earliest usage in English of "great >> minds think alike" or "great minds tend to think alike"? It's not >> in my Bartlett's (15th edition). The Columbia World of Quotations >> (1996) gives "all great heroes think alike" as a Chinese proverb. > > Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of > 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > E-mail: > Web: From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM Wed Mar 23 20:24:45 2005 From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:24:45 -0500 Subject: Fw: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: P.S. Barlett's DOES have "good/great wits jump." "Good wits jump; a word to the wise is enough" is found in the early 18th-century translation of Don Quixote by Peter Anthony Motteux. "Great wits jump" is found in Sterne's Tristram Shandy in the mid-18th century. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Baragona" To: Cc: "Paul Baragona" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 3:19 PM Subject: Re: "Great minds think alike" > Just found this on a British web site called Phrase Finder > (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/32/messages/338.html). Does > anyone know this book and whether it is authoritative? > GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE -- "Often quoted in jest today, this saying > originated in the seventeenth century as the comic-sounding 'Great wits > jump.' Daubridgecourt Belchier first recorded the saying in 'Hans > Beer-Pot' (1618) as 'Good wits doe iumpe (agree).'...The expression 'Great > minds jump' appeared in the late 1800s..." From "Wise Words and Wives' > Tales: The Origins, Meanings and Time-Honored Wisdom of Proverbs and Folk > Sayings Olde and New" by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner (Avon Books, New > York, 1993). > > Alan B. > From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Wed Mar 23 20:49:40 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:49:40 -0600 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language Message-ID: With sincere apologies for a question I know was answered before, can someone re-post a list of books (mainly science fiction) that dealt with language which I know was posted here last year. I tried searching the archives with no results-- I'm obviously not using the right terms. Thanks a heap!!! Patti -- Dr. Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Director of the Writing Center Minot State University Minot, ND 58707 Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that. Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program? Foster: But we are RIGHT! Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 21:21:49 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:21:49 EST Subject: "Great minds think alike" Message-ID: Newspaperarchive.com has an example from the Paxton Weekly Record of 24 Dec. 1874, in which it is described as an adage. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------- No one reads the archives? No one? Boy, am I depressed. No one recognizes what I do. If I gave away the same free cars that Oprah did, people wouldn't like the color. Again, from the ADS-L archives: The OED Appeals List has "great minds think alike," out-of-order under "mind." It needs an antedate of 1873. Is there some guy bagging groceries at Wal-Mart twelve hours a day doing all OED's science terms?...Wright American Fiction (where this is from) will be down from 8 a.m. until noon on Friday. (WRIGHT AMERICAN FICTION) Print Source: Was she engaged? Jonquil, Philadelphia : J.B. Lippincott, 1871. Pg. 234: "By Jove, old fellow, you have hit it How did you know so well what I was going to day? Ah! I know now! 'Great minds think alike,' is the old saying." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 23 21:38:54 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan Transit Authority) nicknames? ... Barry Popik ("the new Rodney") ... ... ... The MTA (Metropolitan Transportation Authority) has quickly been getting a bad reputation for high fares and poor service. This has created some uncomplimentary nicknames. "Metrocard" was introduced in 1994. ... ... ... ... 23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: More Trouble Ahead? ... ... ... (Trademark) Word MarkMETROCARD Goods and ServicesIC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Magnetically encoded, pre-paid cards used as payment device for payment of subway and bus fare transactions. FIRST USE: 19941100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19941100 Mark Drawing Code(1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number76522888 Filing DateJune 16, 2003 Current Filing Basis1A Original Filing Basis1A Published for OppositionFebruary 15, 2005 Owner(APPLICANT) Metropolitan Transportation Authority CORPORATION NEW YORK 347 Madison Avenue New York NEW YORK 10017 Attorney of RecordLOUIS S. EDERER Prior Registrations1945002;2004170 Type of MarkTRADEMARK RegisterPRINCIPAL-2(F) Live/Dead IndicatorLIVE From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 23 22:50:48 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:50:48 -0800 Subject: "schlock" = nonsense Message-ID: "Where does Jennings get off simultaneously bashing the Roswell [UFO] story and yet taking all the other schlock so seriously?" -- Chris Mooney, "Out of Balance," http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/ufos/ (Mar. 3, 2005). "Schlock" here must mean "nonsense," "baloney," and not third-rate entertainment or shoddy goods. I don't believe I've seen the word so used before. However, "Does anyone really believe this schlock?" --"How to Rob the Banks Legally," Usenet: misc.wanted, July 19, 1996. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 23 23:53:28 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:53:28 -0500 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language In-Reply-To: <4241D664.8030407@netscape.net> Message-ID: Here is the list, I think. http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/sf.html -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 00:32:25 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:32:25 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, >I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, > >dInIs Yeah, but her detective/narrator, Kinsey Millhone, is from Santa Barbara...er, Santa Teresa, or technically from nearby Lompoc, if memory serves. And who knows where the woman who reads the audio book is from (but it doesn't sound like Kentucky to me). On the other hand, I lived in California for years and never noticed an /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological variants were involved... Larry > >>Laurence Horn writes: >> >>>I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>>of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>>observed: >>> >>>"The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >>> >>>--with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>>that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>>factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>>difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >the "oogling" variant. From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET Thu Mar 24 01:08:28 2005 From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 19:08:28 -0600 Subject: Sci fi novels featuring language In-Reply-To: <200503231853.6b34242016c139@rly-na06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Bingo! That's it. A thousand heartfelt thank yous, Doug! Patti douglas at NB.NET wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >Subject: Re: Sci fi novels featuring language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Here is the list, I think. > >http://www.princeton.edu/~browning/sf.html > >-- Doug Wilson > > -- Freeman - Long day? Straker - Long month! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Mar 24 01:15:58 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:15:58 -0800 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2005, at 4:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ... I lived in California for years and never noticed an > /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? > Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time > dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological > variants were involved... i'm an /ogl/ person too. i'd noticed the occasional person, over the past few years (at least), saying /agl/ ( but took it to be a spelling pronunciation) or /ugl/ (which i took to be an influence of "google" or "goo-goo eyes") and didn't make notes of the events. one never knows. arnold From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Mar 24 02:09:06 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:09:06 -0600 Subject: "Foob" Watch Message-ID: "Feeb" seems to be doubly derogatory - apparently as a shortening of "feeble" and used by non-FBI law enforcement to refer to the FBI as "the feebs" with a similar implication. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" One contributor to the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.comics.strips last June said that he had used "foob" in the past "merely as a more insulting, patronizing form of 'feeb'". It also suggests "foobar", of course. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 03:57:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:57:58 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: OT: GOODBYE AOL? My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A DILLER, A DOLLAR: RHYMES AND SAYINGS FOR THE TEN O'CLOCK SCHOLAR compiled by Lillian Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell 1955 The author also wrote two books on autograph albums and one title called "Yours Till Niagara Falls" (see ADS-L archives). This book is 150 pages, loaded with interesting stuff such as "Liar, Liar" and "Never went to Yale." I'll research them maybe in another post, or by request. Pg. 2: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, All godd children go to Heaven. 2.3.4.5.6.7.8. All bad children have to wait. Pg. 3: Here comes teacher with a hickory stick; You better get ready for arithmetic. Pg. 6: One's none, Two's some, Three's many, Four's aplenty. I love you a bushel, I love you a peck, I love you a hug Around the neck. Pg. 9: To a semicircle, add a circle, The same again repeat; Add to these a triangle And then you'll have a treat. (COCOA) Pg. 10: Sixty seconds make a minute, How much good can I do in it? Sixty minutes make an hour, All the good that's in my power. Pg. 11: Multiplication is vexation, Division is as bad; The Rule of Three, it puzzles me, And fractions drive me mad. If one and one are two, And one and one do marry, How is it in a year or two, There's two and one to carry? Thirty days hath September, April, June, and November, Save February; the rest have thirty-one Unless you hear from Washington. Pg. 14: Come, dear teacher, hear my say What I can of A B C A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S and T U V W and X Y Z. Now you've heard my A B C, Tell me what you think of me. A-B, ab, catch a crab, G-O, go, let it go. Pg. 15: While a baker was kneading his dough, A weight fell down on his tough, He suddenly exclaimed, "Ough!" Because it had hurt him sough. Pg. 16: Put i before e Except after c, Or when sounded like a, As in neighbor and neigh; And except seize and seizure And also leisure Weird, height, and either, Forfeit and neither. A pretty deer is dear to me, A hare with downy hair, A hart I love with all my heart, But barely bear a bear. Pg. 17: Bill had a billboard and also a board bill but the board bill bored Bill so that he sold the billboard to pay the board bill. Pg. 18: My first is a circle, My second a cross; If you meet my whole, Look out for a toss. (O-X) Do you realize that your real eyes tell real lies to me? Pg. 20: On a hill there is a mill, >From the mill, there is a walk, Under the walk, there is a key, Can you spell this name for me? (Milwaukee) Pg. 21: A knife and a fork, A bottle and a cork. That the way to spell New York. Pg. 22 What starts with a T, Ends with a T, And is full of T? (Teapot) Pg. 26: Ain't ain't in the dictionary no more, So I ain't gonna say ain't no more. Ain't that good? _Heading for a letter:_ Jersey City, Jersey state, Excuse me, honey, I forgot the date. Pg. 28: The wind riz And then it blew. The rain friz And then it snew. Spring has sprung, The grass is riz. I wonder where The flowers is? Spring has sprung, Fall has fell, WInter's here And it's cold as heck. Pg. 29: The swan swam over the sea, Swim, swan, swim. The swan swam back again; Well swam, swan. The sea ceaseth, but the forsythis sufficeth us. The water fell down the mill dam, _slam_. That's poetry. The water fell down the mill dam, _helter-skelter_. That's blank verse. Pg. 30: A kiss is a noun Both common and proper, But not always approved By mama and papa. A kiss is a noun, Standing up or sitting down, Indicative mood, present tense, Taken by those with common sense. Pg. 38: Amo, amas, I had a little lass; Amas, amat, She grew very fat; Amat, amamus, She grew very famous; Amamus, amatis, I fed her potatoes; Amatis, amant But she died of want. Moods and tenses Bother my senses; Adverbs, pronouns, make me roar; Irregular verbs My sleep disturb, They are a regular bore. Pg. 43: A B C D goldfish, M N O goldfish. O S A R D goldfish, C M? O I C. (Abie, see the goldfish, Them ain't no goldfish. Oh, yes they are the goldfish, See 'em? Oh, I see.) Pg. 44: Stand Take 2 Taking I U Throw My (I understand you undertake to overthrow my undertaking.) DRAWPU DNA DRAWNO (Read from right to left for translation) Pg. 48: Is Russia Hungary? I don't know. Alaska. Pg. 51: Where did you get those pants? Pantsylvania. The coat? North Dacoata. The vest? Vest Virginia. The collar? Collarado. The hat? Manhattan. The shirt? A fellow gave it to me. Pg. 53: In Fourteeh Hundred and Ninety-two Columbus saild the ocean blue. In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety-three Columbus sailed the deep blue sea. In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety-four Columbus sailed the sea once more. Pg. 55: Shoot the cat, Shoot the rat, Shoot the dirty Democrat. Shoot the turkey, Shoot the hen, Shoot the dirty Republican. Pg. 62: Roses are red, Violets are blue; The skunks had a college And called it P. U. Googey, gooey was a worm, A mighty worm was he; He sat upon the railroad tracks, The train he did not see. Gooey, gooey! Pg. 63: Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home, Your house is on fire, your children will burn; All but the youngest, whose name is Ann, And she hid herself 'neath the frying pan. Pg. 66: An apple a day Keeps the doctor away. An onion a day Keeps everyone away. Pg. 69: Mary had a little lamb, A little pork, a liitle jam, A little fish, a little ham, A little soda topped with fizz, Now how sick our Mary is. It's better to burp and bear the shame Than spare the burp and bear the pain. Pg. 76: I sneezed a sneeze into the air; It fell to the ground, I know not where; But hard and cold were the looks of those In whose vicinity I had snoze. Pg. 88: My story's ended, My spoon is bended. If you don't like it, Go next door and get it mended. Pg. 90: Before you say that ugly word, Stop and count ten; Then if you want to say that word, Begin and count again. A wise old owl lived in an oak; THe more he heard the less he spoke; The less he spoke the more he heard, Why can't we all be like that wise old bird? Have communion with few. Be familiar with one; Deal justly with all, Speak evil of none. Pg. 91: Ask me no questions, And I'll tell you no lies; Bring me those apples And I'll make you some pies. Pg. 92: It's not the looks, It's not the shoes; Pretty is As pretty do's. Pg. 93: Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace, And Grace is a little girl Who doesn't wash her face. Pg. 96: Well begun Is half done. Pg. 98: In everything you do Aim to excel, For what's worth doing Is worth doing well. Pg. 99: Stop! Look! and Listen! Before you cross the street. Use your eyes; use your ears; Then use your feet. Pg. 100: Politeness is to do and say The kindest thing in the kindest way. Pg. 101: Two's a couple, Three's a crowd, Four on the sidewalk Is never allowed. Pg. 109: I pity the waiter, I pity the cook, I pity the one Who steals this book. Pg. 110: "Clap my hands and jump for joy; I was here before Kilroy." "Sorry to spoil your little joke; I was here, but my pencil broke." --Kilroy (TO BE CONTINUED) From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 04:45:21 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:45:21 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <8C6FE3CCD651EA2-B30-131B0@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Pg. 113: This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. Whoever steals this book of knowledge Will graduate from Sing Sing College. Pg. 116: When I die, bury me ddep, Tell Taft High School not to weep, Lay my math book at my head, Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. When I die, bury me deep, Bury my history book at my feet, Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, And won't be back for the history test. I never went to Harvard, I never went to Yale, I got my education At the Hudson Country jail. Fail now and avoid the June rush. Pg. 118: If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. Many are cold, but few are frozen. Roses are red, Violets are blue, I copied your paper, And I flunked too. Pg. 124: You can lead a horse to water, But you cannot make him drink. You can send a fool to college, But you cannot make him think. Little bits of nerve, Little grains of sand, Make the biggest blockhead Pass a hard exam. Pg. 126: The more we study, the more we know. The more we know, the more we forget The more we forget, the less we know. The less we know, the less we forget. The less we forget, the more we know. Why study? Pg. 128: Tattle tale, teacher's pet! Tell it quick or you'll forget. A dillar, a dollar, A ten o'clock scholar, What makes you come so soon? You use to come at ten o'clock, And now you come at noon. Pg. 129: Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, Oil those brains Before they rust. Pg. 130: April Fool, Go to school, Tell your teacher, She's a fool. Teacher, teacher, I declare, I see Mary's underwear. Pg. 134: I made you look, I made you look, I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 137: Sticks and stones may break my bones, But names will never hurt me. When I die, then you'll cry For the names you called me. Pg. 138: Liar, liar, lick spit, Your tongue shall be slit, And all the dogs in town Shall have a little bit. Pg. 139: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire; Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Pg. 140: Birds of a feather flock together And so will pigs and swine; Rats and mice have their choice, And so will I have mine. Billy, Billy is no good, Chop him up for fire wood; If the fire does not burn Billy is a big fat worm. Cross my heart and hope to die, Eat a banana and holler Hi! Pg. 141: Fat, fat, the water rat, Fifty bullets in his hat. Fatty, fatty, Two by four, Swinging on the kitchen door. When the door began to shake Fatty had a bellyache. Pg. 142: What's your name? Pudding and Tame, Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your name? Buster Brown. Aske me again And I'll know you down. My name's West, I ain't in this mess. Pg. 143: _When someone says, "Hey!":_ Hay is for horses, Straw is for cows, Milk is for babies For crying out loud. _or_ Hey! Straw. What you can't eat, You may gnaw. Pg. 146: Tonight, tonight, The pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Break the dishes, break the chairs, Trip the teachers on the stairs. No more pencils, no more books No more teachers' nasty looks. No more Latin, no more French, No more sitting on a hard school bench. Pg. 147: No more homework, oh what cheer No more school for the rest of the year! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS compiled by Lilliam Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company 1965 Pg. 141: _Come on In_ Come on in, The water's fine. I'll give you Till I count nine. If you're not In by then, Guess I'll have to Count to ten. OLD RHYME _Yes, by Golly_ Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. OLD RHYME ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS New York: Charles A. Lilley 1879 Pg. 92: Love many, trust few, And always paddle your own canoe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES by Ray Wood Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company 1952 Pg. 4: Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? Pg. 9: Chicken in the car and the car won't go, That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. Pg. 30: One for the cutworm, Two for the crow, Three for the chickens, And four to grow. Pg. 78: Joe, Joe, strong and able, Take your elbows off the table, You're not living in a stable. Pg. 92: What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. Pg. 106: Joe, Joe, broke his toe, On the way to Mexico; On the way back he broke his back Trying to ride a paper sack; When he got home, he broke a bone Trying to talk on the telephone. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 04:48:21 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:48:21 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in >today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan >Transit Authority) nicknames? >... >23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: >More Trouble Ahead? Barry notes a few others on his "Big Apple" page : ----- (Google Groups) Odd NYCTA quote from NY Times Tuesday October 6, 1998 ... I have seen the trend spread over into supervision now. Kenny NYCTA Motorman MTA.... Moving Trash Around ....Moving Thugs Around ....More Trouble Ahead nyc.transit ? Oct 30 1998, 2:42 am by KRH1955 ? 9 messages ? 9 authors ----- >From a 1996 thread on the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit (the first three actually refer to the MTA of Los Angeles): Making Transit Awful More Trouble Awaits Many Tardy Arrivals My! Timetable! Amazed! http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.transport.urban-transit/browse_frm/thread/188a5597ff32eb99/8d5a240f58ada03d And along the lines of "Moing Thugs Around", the same thread mentions two (racist) nicknames playing on other public transit initialisms: MARTA "Metro Atlanta Regional Transit Authority" -> "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta" NFT "Niagara Frontier Transit" -> "Nigger Freight Train" Those two nicknames also appear in Nicholas Howe's 1989 article "Rewriting initialisms: folk derivations and linguistic riddles" _Journal of American Folklore_ 102(404):171-182. On JSTOR: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715%28198904%2F06%29102%3A404%3C171%3ARIFDAL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z Surprisingly, Howe doesn't have any reinterpretations of "MTA". But he does have a good selection of automotive nicknames: ----- BMW Big Money Wasted Break My Windows Buick Motor Works Wanted Mercedes-Benz (backwards) Chevy Can Hear Every Valve Yell Dodge Dear Old Dad Goes Everywhere Fiat Fix It Again Tony Found In A Toilet Ford Fix Or Replace Daily Fucking Old Rebuilt Dodge Found On Road Dead Found on Russian Dump First On Race Day GM General Mistakes GMC General Mass of Crap Garage Man's Companion Great Made Car Good Mountain Climber IHC (International Harvester Co.) In Hock Constantly MB (Mercedes-Benz) Mucho Bucks Mechanic's Bonanza MOPAR My Only Problems Are Repairs My Old Pig Ain't Running Olds Old Like Dad's Studebaker Plymouth Please Leave Your Money On The Hood Pontiac Poor Old Niggers Think It's A Cadillac REO Runs Empty Only ----- --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 06:16:22 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:16:22 -0500 Subject: Mozzarella Monday Message-ID: MOZZARELLA MONDAY--70 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits MOZZARELLA MONDAYS--10 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits (FACTIVA) New York Pulse ITS TODAYS CHEESE WIZ CYNTHIA KILIAN 600 words 23 March 2005 New York Post 46 English (c) 2005 N.Y.P. Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. MOZZARELLA is the new Big Cheese. Restaurants are making their own, concocting whole platters devoted to the once overlooked pizza topper and serving the Italian cheese in endlessly fresh presentations. Bond 45, a handsome new Italian addition to Times Square, serves a large platter with four types of mozzarella, including one made in the restaurants kitchen. "I was really going to build a mozzarella bar and do it like our antipasto bar," says owner Shelly Fireman, "but one of the problems is, mozzarella looks kind of boring . . . Its white balls and slightly milky, so the appeal is mixing and matching it with other things." For now, that means serving it with eggplant caponata, nutty fava beans and walnuts, proscuitto and roasted peppers, but there are many possibilities. "Its so endless," says Fireman, "adding is easy." In Los Angeles, Mario Batali is joining forces with baking wizard Nancy Silverton to open a West Coast mozzarella bar, with plans for a spin-off here. Silverton should know a thing or two about the subject - she already presides over "Mozzarella Monday" at L.A.s Jar restaurant. The idea has taken off here too. The Rock Center Caf is doing its own "Mozzarella Monday," with dishes such as crispy sausage and mozzarella purses, and fresh mozzarella, basil and prosciutto pinwheels with garlic crostini. The current darling of the mozzarella world is a variety called burrata, a rich, leaf-wrapped specimen imported from Puglia, Italy. "People are going crazy over it," says Donatella Arpaia, owner of SoHos just-opened Ama, dedicated to Pugliese food. "Mike Myers - you know, Austin Powers - was here a few days ago and just fell in love with it. Hes like, Its sick! I love it! " Ama serves the lush cows milk cheese on the leaf it comes wrapped in, which was originally used to keep the cheese cool, but is now just for decoration. "All we do is help the customer open the pouch and we drizzle a little olive oil from Puglia, and thats it. You dont have to add salt, you dont have to add pepper, you dont have to do much to it at all. Its a very rich mozzarella." I eat at Donatella's restaurant, and she name-drops Mike Myers? Oooh, that woman! "Mozzarella Monday" is something that might catch on. What's next? Andy Smith's "Tuna Tuesday"? (FACTIVA) GO! A LA CARTE 734 words 18 February 2005 The Record All Editions G38 English (...) Rustic-Italian-style handmade mozzarella takes center plate on Monday nights at the bar at Rock Center Cafe. Executive chef Antonio Protelli offers a menu with six mozzarella dishes matched with a selection of Italian wines by the glass. The signature Mozzarella Monday menu offers plates priced from $8 to $12 each. Rock Center Cafe is at 20 W. 50th St., Manhattan. Information: (212) 332-7620. (FACTIVA) Silverton, Batali to join forces for Mozza Bar concept in L.A.: locally produced mozzarella to be central to dishes.(News) Jennings, Lisa 755 words 14 February 2005 Nation's Restaurant News 4 ISSN: 0028-0518; Volume 39; Issue 7 English Copyright 2005 Gale Group Inc. All rights reserved. Los ANGELES -- La Brea Bakery founder and renowned chef-restaurateur Nancy Silverton is teaming up with a counterpart from New York, celebrated chef-restaurateur Mario Batali, to open a new concept here that tentatively is named Mozza Bar and someday may be replicated in the Big Apple. The casual, Italian-inspired restaurant will be a first on the West Coast for Batali and his longtime business partner Joseph Bastianich. The pair owns seven critically acclaimed New York restaurants, including Babbo, Esca, Lupa and the recently opened Bistro du Vent. The Los Angeles venture also marks a reversal of Batali's former stance that he never would open a restaurant in that city. (...) Over the past several months, Silverton also has hosted the popular "Mozzarella Mondays" at the Los Angeles restaurant Jar, co-owned by chef Suzanne Tracht. The weekly dinners include a bar menu that features locally produced mozzarella prepared in various ways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC: WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? A brief round-up of my Tyler Cowan restaurant challenge. I visited some excellent restaurants and then some standard types. KLUNG--I ate there Wednesday (last night). A Siamese restaurant on St. Marks Place, between Second and Third. It's been open about six months. A nice place. MERMAID INN--On Second Avenue. I ate there in Monday and finally got a seat. Worth it for the seafood. INDIAN PLACE A BLOCK AWAY FROM THE MERMAID INN WHEN I COULDN'T GET A TABLE IN THERE--Not bad for Northern Indian. BLT FISH--I finally got in there. There's a nice garlic and cheese bread before the meal. I can't tell much from OK fish & chips. PORTFOLIO RESTAURANT--The next block from BLT Fish, when I couldn't get a table there. This place was empty, but it's OK Italian. SERAFINA RESTAURANT--There are at least four different ones in Manhattan--one on Broadway and West 55th, one on Lafayette Street, and I ate at the one on West 61st. I had lettuce and then noodles. It was about $33 with taxes and tip! Overpriced, overrated Italian. Would be OK if cheaper. BROADWAY DINER--Not on Broadway, of course (that's now a Serafina), but on Lexington Avenue and 52nd. Nothing special, but bright enough to read the paper. PIZZA RESTAURANT ON CARMINE STREET--Already mentioned. ITALIAN RESTAURANT ON CARMINE STREET--It's a block down from the pizza restaurant. Above average. Reasonably priced. PIZZA & PASTA ON LA GUARDIA--An OK place, about two blocks from the NYU Bobst Library. JACQUES IMO'S TO GEAUX AT GRAND CENTRAL--Already mentioned. HUMMUS ON MACDOUGAL STREET--Same as the Hummus on St. Marks Place. LOUIS G'S ICE CREAM ON MACDOUGAL STREET--One of a Brooklyn chain. A good egg cream, but I still like Carvel ice cream better. MARY'S FISH CAMP ON WEST FOURTH AND CHARLES STREET--Tiny and crowded, but good fish. Closed on Sundays. Mary was there, but is no Donatella. MARY'S DAIRY ON WEST FOURTH--The Hawaii Five-O with killer chocolate and chips and nuts remains the only flavor to get. Not related to Mary's Fish Camp on West Fourth, but I felt like a Marys food chain last Saturday. GOBO ON SIXTH AVENUE--There's now an uptown one as well. It's been rated one of the best vegetarian restaurants in the country and it certainly is good. I'll have to go there again for another dish. I was told to get the "New England rolls," which are fantastic, but New England? Is it supposed to be a veggie lobster roll? It tasted more Vietnamese than New England! BELLINI RESTAURANT ON EAST 52ND--Donatella's first restaurant. Good but overpriced. My most expensive meal, at $55 (after taxes and tip). The $28 tuna entree was not spectacular. 879-TACO ON FIRST AVENUE--Yes, I actually went here when I just didn't feel like a $60 "angry lobster" dinner at David Burke & Donatella on East 61st. Hey, it was ten bucks. BLOCKHEADS--There are several, but I went to the closest one at Second Avenue and East 51st. Just average Mexican. Better than Taco Bell, not even close to Rosa Mexicano or Mama Mexico or Mexican Radio. Not even as good as Mary Ann's. But it's bright enough to read the newspaper with your meal. MEDITERRANEAN CAFE--Falafel dive on East 53rd Street, below the ground. KELLY AND PING--An "Asian Grocery and Noodle Shop" on 340 Third Avenue (near 23rd Street), also at 127 Greene Street. OK Asian. RAY'S PIZZARIA ON PRINCE STREET--This is supposed to be the "original" Ray's pizza, established 1959. It says "pizzaria" in the window, not "pizzeria." An average slice place. MEKONG RESTAURANT AND BAR ON PRINCE STREET--Average Vietnamese/Asian. ENGLISH IS ITALIAN ON THIRD AVENUE AND EAST 40TH--Not a place to go by yourself. A good deal at $39 for all the rounds. I gotta take Grant Barrett and Jesse Sheidlower here. Orion Montoya's girlfriend looks kinda skinny, too. IRISH BAR ON 43RD STREET, BETWEEN GRAND CENTRAL AND MADISON AVENUE--I didn't go to an Irish bar on St. Patrick's Day, but before, when it was empty. A surprisingly good French onion soup. NATHAN'S-BLIMPIE'S-THE BEST PIZZA ON WESTCHESTER SQUARE--This opened near where I work. Two places on Westchester Square sell "the best pizza." Neither one is very good. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 13:13:44 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:13:44 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Idealism" In-Reply-To: <8C6FE436BA527E2-B30-13429@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: idealism (OED 1796) 1773 Denis Diderot _An Essay on Blindness_ 50 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Idealism deserves very well to be reported to him; and this hypothesis is as a double incentive for him, his singularity, and much more the difficulty of refuting its principles, they being precisely the same as those of Berkeley. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 13:22:25 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:22:25 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Monarchism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: monarchism (OED 1792) 1742 J. Olivier _The History of the Life, and Surprizing Adventures of Signor Rozelli_ 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) If I had known, from that time, the spirit of monarchism, I should have taken care not to have embrac'd it, as I afterwards did. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 24 14:31:46 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: OXYMORON: "A rhetorical figure in which an epigrammatic effect is created by the conjunction of incongruous or contradictory terms" Can anyone out there tell me when oxymoron lost its technical rhetorical definition and became merely a synonym for a contradiction in terms? For better or worse the former usage is apparently lost forever having been overwhelmed by the popular usage to the point where no one except a professor of English or someone like myself who took English back in the middle ages would even know that it ever was a technical term. Page Stephens From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Mar 24 14:51:20 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:51:20 -0500 Subject: swang on local NPR station Message-ID: I just heard _swang_ (as in sing, swang, swung) in an interview on NPR (WAMC, Albany, NY). I suspect that HDAS will extend the understanding of the place of _swang_ in recent American English beyond that found in Wentworth (1944). Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 15:07:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:07:04 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: "Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. JL bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Pg. 113: This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. Whoever steals this book of knowledge Will graduate from Sing Sing College. Pg. 116: When I die, bury me ddep, Tell Taft High School not to weep, Lay my math book at my head, Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. When I die, bury me deep, Bury my history book at my feet, Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, And won't be back for the history test. I never went to Harvard, I never went to Yale, I got my education At the Hudson Country jail. Fail now and avoid the June rush. Pg. 118: If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. Many are cold, but few are frozen. Roses are red, Violets are blue, I copied your paper, And I flunked too. Pg. 124: You can lead a horse to water, But you cannot make him drink. You can send a fool to college, But you cannot make him think. Little bits of nerve, Little grains of sand, Make the biggest blockhead Pass a hard exam. Pg. 126: The more we study, the more we know. The more we know, the more we forget The more we forget, the less we know. The less we know, the less we forget. The less we forget, the more we know. Why study? Pg. 128: Tattle tale, teacher's pet! Tell it quick or you'll forget. A dillar, a dollar, A ten o'clock scholar, What makes you come so soon? You use to come at ten o'clock, And now you come at noon. Pg. 129: Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust, Oil those brains Before they rust. Pg. 130: April Fool, Go to school, Tell your teacher, She's a fool. Teacher, teacher, I declare, I see Mary's underwear. Pg. 134: I made you look, I made you look, I made you buy a penny book. Pg. 137: Sticks and stones may break my bones, But names will never hurt me. When I die, then you'll cry For the names you called me. Pg. 138: Liar, liar, lick spit, Your tongue shall be slit, And all the dogs in town Shall have a little bit. Pg. 139: Liar, liar, Your pants are on fire; Your nose is as long As a telephone wire. Pg. 140: Birds of a feather flock together And so will pigs and swine; Rats and mice have their choice, And so will I have mine. Billy, Billy is no good, Chop him up for fire wood; If the fire does not burn Billy is a big fat worm. Cross my heart and hope to die, Eat a banana and holler Hi! Pg. 141: Fat, fat, the water rat, Fifty bullets in his hat. Fatty, fatty, Two by four, Swinging on the kitchen door. When the door began to shake Fatty had a bellyache. Pg. 142: What's your name? Pudding and Tame, Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. Where do you live? Down the lane. What's your number? Cucumber. What's your name? Buster Brown. Aske me again And I'll know you down. My name's West, I ain't in this mess. Pg. 143: _When someone says, "Hey!":_ Hay is for horses, Straw is for cows, Milk is for babies For crying out loud. _or_ Hey! Straw. What you can't eat, You may gnaw. Pg. 146: Tonight, tonight, The pillow fight, Tomorrow's the end of school. Break the dishes, break the chairs, Trip the teachers on the stairs. No more pencils, no more books No more teachers' nasty looks. No more Latin, no more French, No more sitting on a hard school bench. Pg. 147: No more homework, oh what cheer No more school for the rest of the year! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS compiled by Lilliam Morrison New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company 1965 Pg. 141: _Come on In_ Come on in, The water's fine. I'll give you Till I count nine. If you're not In by then, Guess I'll have to Count to ten. OLD RHYME _Yes, by Golly_ Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. OLD RHYME ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS New York: Charles A. Lilley 1879 Pg. 92: Love many, trust few, And always paddle your own canoe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES by Ray Wood Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company 1952 Pg. 4: Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? Pg. 9: Chicken in the car and the car won't go, That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. Pg. 30: One for the cutworm, Two for the crow, Three for the chickens, And four to grow. Pg. 78: Joe, Joe, strong and able, Take your elbows off the table, You're not living in a stable. Pg. 92: What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. Pg. 106: Joe, Joe, broke his toe, On the way to Mexico; On the way back he broke his back Trying to ride a paper sack; When he got home, he broke a bone Trying to talk on the telephone. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 15:13:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 07:13:04 -0800 Subject: swang on local NPR station In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: HDAS doesn't ordinarily treat nonstandard verb forms - that's DARE territory. I've heard "swang" in Tennessee on more than one occasion, but certainly not with any frequency. JL Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: swang on local NPR station ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just heard _swang_ (as in sing, swang, swung) in an interview on NPR (WAMC, Albany, NY). I suspect that HDAS will extend the understanding of the place of _swang_ in recent American English beyond that found in Wentworth (1944). Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:25:50 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:25:50 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Pg. 111: Bill Jones is my name, U. S. is my nation, Ohio is my dwelling place And Heaven my expectation. Stephen Dedalus writes a version of this in a schoolbook in A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 24 15:34:33 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for The Kingston Trio many years ago. Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of which shared the same tune. The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never heard the song. The Wreck of the Old 97 also provides us with an interesting way of tracing the antecedents of different versions of a song via a mistake made by the singer of the most popular version. The original recorded version by Henry Whitter was correct in terms of earlier printed versions when he sang "he lost his airbrakes" but Vernon Dalhart who covered it apparently misheard the words since he recorded it as "he lost his average" and so if you hear someone singing the latter phrase you know it comes from Dalhart's cover which sold in the millions and not from Whitter's version. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Zimmer" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 11:48 PM Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:38:54 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >>I just entered this on my "Big Apple" page. "More Trouble Ahead" is in >>today's New York Post. Does anyone know another other "MTA" (Metropolitan >>Transit Authority) nicknames? >>... >>23 March 2005, New York Post, pg. 32 editorial: >>More Trouble Ahead? > > Barry notes a few others on his "Big Apple" page > : > > ----- > (Google Groups) > Odd NYCTA quote from NY Times Tuesday October 6, 1998 > ... I have seen the trend spread over into supervision now. Kenny NYCTA > Motorman MTA.... > Moving Trash Around ....Moving Thugs Around ....More Trouble Ahead > nyc.transit - Oct 30 1998, 2:42 am by KRH1955 - 9 messages - 9 authors > ----- > > From a 1996 thread on the newsgroup misc.transport.urban-transit (the > first three actually refer to the MTA of Los Angeles): > > Making Transit Awful > More Trouble Awaits > Many Tardy Arrivals > My! Timetable! Amazed! > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.transport.urban-transit/browse_frm/thread/188a5597ff32eb99/8d5a240f58ada03d > > And along the lines of "Moing Thugs Around", the same thread mentions two > (racist) nicknames playing on other public transit initialisms: > > MARTA "Metro Atlanta Regional Transit Authority" -> > "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta" > > NFT "Niagara Frontier Transit" -> > "Nigger Freight Train" > > Those two nicknames also appear in Nicholas Howe's 1989 article "Rewriting > initialisms: folk derivations and linguistic riddles" _Journal of American > Folklore_ 102(404):171-182. On JSTOR: > http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715%28198904%2F06%29102%3A404%3C171%3ARIFDAL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-Z > > Surprisingly, Howe doesn't have any reinterpretations of "MTA". But he > does have a good selection of automotive nicknames: > > ----- > BMW > Big Money Wasted > Break My Windows > Buick Motor Works > Wanted Mercedes-Benz (backwards) > > Chevy > Can Hear Every Valve Yell > > Dodge > Dear Old Dad Goes Everywhere > > Fiat > Fix It Again Tony > Found In A Toilet > > Ford > Fix Or Replace Daily > Fucking Old Rebuilt Dodge > Found On Road Dead > Found on Russian Dump > First On Race Day > > GM > General Mistakes > > GMC > General Mass of Crap > Garage Man's Companion > Great Made Car > Good Mountain Climber > > IHC (International Harvester Co.) > In Hock Constantly > > MB (Mercedes-Benz) > Mucho Bucks > Mechanic's Bonanza > > MOPAR > My Only Problems Are Repairs > My Old Pig Ain't Running > > Olds > Old Like Dad's Studebaker > > Plymouth > Please Leave Your Money On The Hood > > Pontiac > Poor Old Niggers Think It's A Cadillac > > REO > Runs Empty Only > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:37:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:31:46 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: >OXYMORON: >"A rhetorical figure in which an epigrammatic effect is created by the >conjunction of incongruous or contradictory terms" > >Can anyone out there tell me when oxymoron lost its technical rhetorical >definition and became merely a synonym for a contradiction in terms? > >For better or worse the former usage is apparently lost forever having been >overwhelmed by the popular usage to the point where no one except a >professor of English or someone like myself who took English back in the >middle ages would even know that it ever was a technical term. The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general sense of 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive suggests that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:38:47 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:38:47 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050324150704.96955.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:07 AM -0800 3/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. > >JL speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence Here I sit, broken-hearted Came to shit and only farted. ? I'm assuming Fred will need an first cite on that for his Yale Dictionary of Quotations, although it might be hard to determine the author. I see from the archives that Barry (in an October 2000 posting) found this in a "Realist" issue from 1968--in the pay-toilet version, "Paid to shit"--but its provenance is certainly a lot earlier. L >bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM >Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Pg. 111: >Bill Jones is my name, >U. S. is my nation, >Ohio is my dwelling place >And Heaven my expectation. > >Pg. 113: >This book is not an orphan, so do not adopt it. > >Whoever steals this book of knowledge >Will graduate from Sing Sing College. > >Pg. 116: >When I die, bury me ddep, >Tell Taft High School not to weep, >Lay my math book at my head, >Tell Miss Barnes I'm glad I'm dead. > >When I die, bury me deep, >Bury my history book at my feet, >Tell my teacher I've gone to rest, >And won't be back for the history test. > >I never went to Harvard, >I never went to Yale, >I got my education >At the Hudson Country jail. > >Fail now and avoid the June rush. > >Pg. 118: >If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >Many are cold, but few are frozen. > >Roses are red, >Violets are blue, >I copied your paper, >And I flunked too. > >Pg. 124: >You can lead a horse to water, >But you cannot make him drink. >You can send a fool to college, >But you cannot make him think. > >Little bits of nerve, >Little grains of sand, >Make the biggest blockhead >Pass a hard exam. > >Pg. 126: >The more we study, the more we know. >The more we know, the more we forget >The more we forget, the less we know. >The less we know, the less we forget. >The less we forget, the more we know. >Why study? > >Pg. 128: >Tattle tale, teacher's pet! >Tell it quick or you'll forget. > >A dillar, a dollar, >A ten o'clock scholar, >What makes you come so soon? >You use to come at ten o'clock, >And now you come at noon. > >Pg. 129: >Ashes to ashes, >Dust to dust, >Oil those brains >Before they rust. > >Pg. 130: >April Fool, >Go to school, >Tell your teacher, >She's a fool. > >Teacher, teacher, >I declare, >I see Mary's underwear. > >Pg. 134: >I made you look, >I made you look, >I made you buy a penny book. > >Pg. 137: >Sticks and stones may break my bones, >But names will never hurt me. >When I die, then you'll cry >For the names you called me. > >Pg. 138: >Liar, liar, lick spit, >Your tongue shall be slit, >And all the dogs in town >Shall have a little bit. > >Pg. 139: >Liar, liar, >Your pants are on fire; >Your nose is as long >As a telephone wire. > >Pg. 140: >Birds of a feather flock together >And so will pigs and swine; >Rats and mice have their choice, >And so will I have mine. > >Billy, Billy is no good, >Chop him up for fire wood; >If the fire does not burn >Billy is a big fat worm. > >Cross my heart and hope to die, >Eat a banana and holler Hi! > >Pg. 141: >Fat, fat, the water rat, >Fifty bullets in his hat. > >Fatty, fatty, >Two by four, >Swinging on the kitchen door. >When the door began to shake >Fatty had a bellyache. > >Pg. 142: >What's your name? >Pudding and Tame, >Aske me again and I'll tell you the same. >Where do you live? >Down the lane. >What's your number? >Cucumber. > >What's your name? >Buster Brown. >Aske me again >And I'll know you down. > >My name's West, >I ain't in this mess. > >Pg. 143: >_When someone says, "Hey!":_ > >Hay is for horses, >Straw is for cows, >Milk is for babies >For crying out loud. >_or_ >Hey! >Straw. >What you can't eat, >You may gnaw. > >Pg. 146: >Tonight, tonight, >The pillow fight, >Tomorrow's the end of school. >Break the dishes, break the chairs, >Trip the teachers on the stairs. > >No more pencils, no more books >No more teachers' nasty looks. > >No more Latin, no more French, >No more sitting on a hard school bench. > >Pg. 147: >No more homework, oh what cheer >No more school for the rest of the year! > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >SPRINTS AND DISTANCES: >SPORTS IN POETRY AND THE POETRY OF SPORTS >compiled by Lilliam Morrison >New York: Thomas Y. Crowell Company >1965 > >Pg. 141: _Come on In_ >Come on in, >The water's fine. >I'll give you >Till I count nine. >If you're not >In by then, >Guess I'll have to >Count to ten. >OLD RHYME > >_Yes, by Golly_ >Yellow-belly, yellow-belly, come and take a swim, >Yes, by golly, when the tide comes in. >OLD RHYME > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >SELECTIONS FOR AUTOGRAPH AND WRITING ALBUMS >New York: Charles A. Lilley >1879 > >Pg. 92: >Love many, trust few, >And always paddle your own canoe. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >FUN IN AMERICAN FOLK RHYMES >by Ray Wood >Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company >1952 > >Pg. 4: >Fuzzy-wuzzy was a bear; >Fuzzy-wuzzy cut his hair; >Then Fuzzy-wuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he? > >Pg. 9: >Chicken in the car and the car won't go, >That's the way to spell C-H-I-C-A-G-O! > >Knife and a fork and a bottle and a cork, >That's the way to spell N-E-W Y-O-R-K. > >Pg. 30: >One for the cutworm, >Two for the crow, >Three for the chickens, >And four to grow. > >Pg. 78: >Joe, Joe, strong and able, >Take your elbows off the table, >You're not living in a stable. > >Pg. 92: >What kind of pants does a cowboy wear? >Rawhide pants, 'cause they don't tear. > >Pg. 106: >Joe, Joe, broke his toe, >On the way to Mexico; >On the way back he broke his back >Trying to ride a paper sack; >When he got home, he broke a bone >Trying to talk on the telephone. > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Thu Mar 24 15:11:00 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:11:00 -0500 Subject: re-ogling In-Reply-To: <0IDT00EO6ZK0MVD0@mta03.service.private> Message-ID: Definitely /ogl/ in North Central/Northwestern New Jersey and adjacent parts of NY State. Maybe /agl/ is an Upper Midwest thing. Paul Johnston On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 07:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: re-ogling > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Sue Grafton is from Louisville, and she speaks (or would have spoken, >> I ain't seen her for years) standard English like me and said /ogl/, >> >> dInIs > > Yeah, but her detective/narrator, Kinsey Millhone, is from Santa > Barbara...er, Santa Teresa, or technically from nearby Lompoc, if > memory serves. And who knows where the woman who reads the audio > book is from (but it doesn't sound like Kentucky to me). On the > other hand, I lived in California for years and never noticed an > /agl/ there. Is that regionalized to the upper Midwest, do we know? > Is there an isogloss in the house? I can't remember the last time > dInIs and I came out on the same side of one, when phonological > variants were involved... > > Larry > >> >>> Laurence Horn writes: >>> >>>> I don't know if I'd have noticed it before last week, but the reader >>>> of my current Audiobook (Sue Grafton's _R is for Richochet_ just >>>> observed: >>>> >>>> "The guy was so busy ogling her, he nearly dropped the car keys" >>>> >>>> --with "ogling" pronounced [aglIng] as in "goggling". In fact, now >>>> that I think of it, I wonder if "goggle" might not be one of the >>>> factors contributing to the "oggle" pronunciation, despite the >>>> difference in orthography, the way Barney Google might contribute to >> the "oogling" variant. > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 15:43:08 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:43:08 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 10:38:47AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 7:07 AM -0800 3/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >"Flunk now and avoid the June rush!" was scrawled on a wall at NYU in 1971. > > > >JL > > > speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence > > Here I sit, broken-hearted > Came to shit and only farted. > > ? 1928 in A. W. Read _Lexical Evidence from Folk Epigraphy_ (1935) 50 Here I sit all broken hearted Came to shit and only farted. [Editor's note: "Very popular"]. Jesse Sheidlower OED From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:17:31 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:17:31 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes >>>>> Pg. 43: A B C D goldfish, M N O goldfish. O S A R D goldfish, C M? O I C. (Abie, see the goldfish, Them ain't no goldfish. Oh, yes they are the goldfish, See 'em? Oh, I see.) <<<<< The version I have seen has an additional letter, which may have been omitted for this publication: A B C D goldfish, L M N O goldfish. [...] (Abie, see the goldfish, Hell, them ain't no goldfish... -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:19:36 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:19:36 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter opines: >>>>> "Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. <<<<< But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, not "snow domes". -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 16:23:28 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:23:28 -0500 Subject: "Great minds think alike" In-Reply-To: <20050324050048.27152B25DB@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: In high school we knew this in some form like "Great minds run in the same path", which a friend of mine always used in the parodic form "Small minds run in the same gutter" when he and I were thinking alike. I prefer his version for everyday use. How many of us have great minds? -- Mark [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:24:53 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:24:53 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: > > speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence > > Here I sit, broken-hearted > Came to shit and only farted. > second stanza, from my college days: Supper's waiting, I cannot linger -- I know, I have it! I'll use my finger! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:29:27 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:29:27 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last > night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I > downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle > through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. > > Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road > Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? > Get a cable modem from your cable TV company. From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Mar 24 16:38:33 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:38:33 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Variants from a misspent youth: > If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. > You can lead a horse to water, > But you cannot make him drink. > You can send a fool to college, > But you cannot make him think. You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] but you can't make her think. > April Fool, > Go to school, > Tell your teacher, > She's a fool. Trick or treat, smell my feet, Give me something good to eat. > I made you look, > I made you look, > I made you buy a penny book. ....Made you read a story book. > Fatty, fatty, > Two by four, > Swinging on the kitchen door. ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in elementary school for saying this to a girl). > My name's West, > I ain't in this mess. >From the movie "Pulp Fiction": "Hey, my name's Paul and this shit's between y'all." (Said by a character named Paul) I always assumed it was just some clever dialogue from Quentin Tarantino, now I'm not so sure. From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Mar 24 17:07:23 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:07:23 -0000 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective miseries and tell us where it comes from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU Thu Mar 24 17:31:40 2005 From: cxr1086 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Clai Rice) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:31:40 -0600 Subject: mofo Message-ID: I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a spelling pronunciation? Clai Rice From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 24 17:34:07 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:34:07 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA840@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > >You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] >but you can't make her think. attributed, correctly or not, to Dorothy Parker (as an ad lib contribution to a "use this word in a sentence" parlor game, one likes to think around the Algonquin round table). L From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Mar 24 17:36:10 2005 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:36:10 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Quinion Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:07 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Great googily moogily A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective miseries and tell us where it comes from? -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 18:00:48 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:00:48 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: Michael Quinion: >A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >miseries and tell us where it comes from? John Baker: >I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe >was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: ----- http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html Now looky here. I did not say I was a millionare. But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. And women? Well, great googly moogly. ----- The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' "Ball of Confusion" (1970). --Ben Zimmer From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 24 18:46:47 2005 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:46:47 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <8C6FE3CCD651EA2-B30-131B0@mblk-d12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You can get a high-speed connection from another provider and maintain your AOL account at a reduced price (around $15/month), if you want to. The connection to AOL would be broadband, in that case. Joanne On 23 Mar 2005, at 22:57, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. > > Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? > From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 18:56:06 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:56:06 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: <4242C4C7.18870.F8F05CF@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 01:46:47PM -0500, Joanne M. Despres wrote: > You can get a high-speed connection from another provider and > maintain your AOL account at a reduced price (around $15/month), > if you want to. The connection to AOL would be broadband, in that > case. > > On 23 Mar 2005, at 22:57, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > > OT: GOODBYE AOL? > > My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died > >last night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up > >connection. I downloaded the "Security Edition," but still > >must battle through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" > >interruptions. Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL > >Broadband? Road Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? I can't speak for the AOL stuff, but I've been very happy with Road Runner in NY, and I have high standards for this kind of thing. I'd recommend it as a provider. If you can maintain your AOL account, perhaps that would be a good solution for you. Jesse Sheidlower OED From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Thu Mar 24 18:47:27 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:47:27 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <0IDV00GNEBDJ9F60@mta03.service.private> Message-ID: And Lloyd Price's (1962?) version of Misty--which the Temps copped their "Great googa mooga, dontcha hear me talkin to ya" from. Paul Johnston On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 01:00 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: Great googily moogily > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Michael Quinion: >> A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >> moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >> miseries and tell us where it comes from? > > John Baker: >> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I >> believe >> was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >> Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >> http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > > As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's > "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: > > ----- > http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html > > Now looky here. > I did not say I was a millionare. > But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. > Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, > I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. > And women? Well, great googly moogly. > ----- > > The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of > the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' > "Ball of Confusion" (1970). > > > --Ben Zimmer > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 19:43:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:43:06 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "If at first you don't succeed, try second." I learned this as a "baseball saying" around 1959. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 10:38 AM -0600 3/24/05, Mullins, Bill wrote: >Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > >If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > >You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] >but you can't make her think. attributed, correctly or not, to Dorothy Parker (as an ad lib contribution to a "use this word in a sentence" parlor game, one likes to think around the Algonquin round table). L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 20:29:53 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:29:53 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:47:27 -0500, Paul Johnston wrote: >And Lloyd Price's (1962?) version of Misty--which the Temps copped their >"Great googa mooga, dontcha hear me talkin to ya" from. Also c. 1962, Lee Dorsey had a song called "Great Googa Mooga" on his album _Ya Ya_. --Ben Zimmer >On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 01:00 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> Michael Quinion: >>> A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >>> moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >>> miseries and tell us where it comes from? >> >> John Baker: >>> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I >>> believe >>> was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >>> Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >>> http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >> >> As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's >> "Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: >> >> ----- >> http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html >> >> Now looky here. >> I did not say I was a millionare. >> But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. >> Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, >> I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. >> And women? Well, great googly moogly. >> ----- >> >> The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of >> the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' >> "Ball of Confusion" (1970). >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Thu Mar 24 20:34:05 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:34:05 -0500 Subject: Safire on "nukular" In-Reply-To: <20050322050227.70D26B24DD@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: arnold sez >>> Problem 3, also serious: getting the metathesis proposal to work. Metathesis of the /l/ and /i/ of /nukli at r/ would give /nukil at r/, with primary accent on the first syllable and secondary accent on the second (as in "nuclear"). To get towards "nucular", that second syllable would have to lose its accent (this is not particularly unlikely), yielding /nukIl at r/ or /nuk at l@r/. This isn't all the way home, though, because there's still that /y/ to pick up. It looks like Safire is assuming a metathesis and *then* a reshaping to match other "-cular" words, which would supply a /y/. But direct reshaping is a more parsimonious account of the phenomenon; the metathesis is unnecessary. <<< You're treating the @ and the i as separate beads on a string. Try this analysis instead: Begin by treating unstressed [i@] as /?y@/, where I'm ad-hocking /?/ to stand for unstressed central vowel. It could be schwa or I or barred-I; they're not distinctive before /y/, and it's the /y/ that makes the combination come out as [i]. So we have /'nukl?y at r/. Swap the l and y and hey presto!: /'nuky?l at r/ = ['nuky at l@r], by metathesis. mark by hand From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 20:35:16 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: >From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: "The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." "Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 21:17:33 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:17:33 -0800 Subject: "step up to the plate" Message-ID: "Your World," Fox News Channel, five minutes ago: "There is a role for the federal government [in the Schiavo case], and they have not stepped up to the plate!" Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to face a situation or make a decision squarely and confidently." It's been around for many years. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 21:17:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:17:47 -0800 Subject: "step up to the plate" Message-ID: "Your World," Fox News Channel, five minutes ago: "There is a role for the federal government [in the Schiavo case], and they have not stepped up to the plate!" Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to face a situation or make a decision squarely and confidently." It's been around for many years. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Mar 24 21:42:43 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:42:43 -0500 Subject: "step up to the plate" In-Reply-To: <20050324211733.33950.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2005 at 01:17:33PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Politicians and talking heads use this metaphor all the > time, but it's not in OED. One definition might be, "to > face a situation or make a decision squarely and > confidently." We do have a draft entry for this, with first quotations of 1875 (literal) and 1919 (figurative). Jesse Sheidlower OED From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Mar 24 21:51:24 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:51:24 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: A railfan from the San Francisco area gave me these backronyms for the parts of the New York subway system: IRT = Incredibly Rancid Transit BMT = Bowel Movement Transitr IND = Incredibly Noisy Derailments The practice of thinking up spoofs on names of railroads goes way back. In England the London Chatham and Dover was the "London Crash-em and Turnover". Many such spoofs were fond rather than sarcastic, e.g. the Maryland and Pennsylvania was universally known as the "Ma and Pa" and the Hoosac Tunnel and WIlmington was the "Hoot Toot and Whistle". chew chew! Jim Landau Aside to Barry Popik---somehow this Easter season has gone past without that unforgettable candy item of previous years, Russell Stover Foil Eggs. From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU Thu Mar 24 22:10:44 2005 From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:10:44 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred In-Reply-To: <20050324203516.98281.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 03:35 PM 3/24/2005, you wrote: > From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: > >"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." > >"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to >1880. Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. > >Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >JL Makes it sound more emotionally wrenching?? From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 22:41:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: > >"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." > >"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. > >Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. Here's a cite: That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 24 23:17:23 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 18:17:23 -0500 Subject: "blood family" = kindred Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: >> >>"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." >> >>"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >>Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. >> >>Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations >like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. >Here's a cite: > > That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a > "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. > Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ Slightly earlier, in the "birth family" sense: ----- Lima News (Ohio), Aug 22, 1968, p. 28 Adopted parents are often given scant information on their chosen child's blood relations. This is done to prevent any later crossing of the two families, which might trigger a change in the blood family's willingness to go through with the adoption. ----- And earlier still, in a peculiar show-biz usage: ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), Oct 26, 1954, p. 18 It was a party for both of Liberace's families. There was his blood family ... And there was his money family, consisting of his business managers, his arranger, his television director, and the wives of some of them. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 24 23:24:49 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: "blood family" = kindred In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: One important reason for "blood family" is that "kindred" has fallen out of general use. However, I find there is something creepy about it - or gory. JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Re: "blood family" = kindred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:41:25 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 12:35:16 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>>From "Studio B," Fox News Channel, ten minutes ago: >> >>"The Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's blood family." >> >>"Blood family" is not in OED, though "blood-kin" is dated to 1880. >>Personally, I would have said "birth family," which isn't listed either. >> >>Fox News has been using "blood family" routinely in this case. > >I associate "blood family" with the Mafia, or at least fictionalizations >like the Sopranos where small-f family is distinguished from big-f Family. >Here's a cite: > > That had never been his goal, such an ambition would have been a > "disrespect" to his benefactor and his benefactor's blood family. > Mario Puzo, _The Godfather_, 1969, p. 53 (1978 Signet edition) > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0451167716/ Slightly earlier, in the "birth family" sense: ----- Lima News (Ohio), Aug 22, 1968, p. 28 Adopted parents are often given scant information on their chosen child's blood relations. This is done to prevent any later crossing of the two families, which might trigger a change in the blood family's willingness to go through with the adoption. ----- And earlier still, in a peculiar show-biz usage: ----- Chronicle Telegram (Elyria, Ohio), Oct 26, 1954, p. 18 It was a party for both of Liberace's families. There was his blood family ... And there was his money family, consisting of his business managers, his arranger, his television director, and the wives of some of them. ----- --Ben Zimmer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 01:56:26 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:56:26 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Barry quotes > >>>>> > >Pg. 43: >A B C D goldfish, >M N O goldfish. >O S A R D goldfish, > C M? >O I C. >(Abie, see the goldfish, >Them ain't no goldfish. >Oh, yes they are the goldfish, >See 'em? >Oh, I see.) > <<<<< > >The version I have seen has an additional letter, which may have been >omitted for this publication: > >A B C D goldfish, >L M N O goldfish. > [...] >(Abie, see the goldfish, >Hell, them ain't no goldfish... > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] ADCDQTT OMNOQTT OSAR Abie, see the cuties? Oh, them ain't no cuties! Oh, yes they are! From Readers Digest ca. the '40's -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:13:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:13:25 -0500 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter opines: > >>>>> > >"Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. > <<<<< > >But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, >not "snow domes". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] I've seen domes, but they were solid glass and had some kind of pictorial matter affixed to the bottom so that the dome was, in effect, a magnifying glass. My late stepfather had one with a photo of his first-born child, which had died in infancy. He used it as a paperweight. I've never seen one that was hollow with "snow," nor do I know of any special name for this item. -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:44:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:44:22 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Michael Quinion: >>A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >>moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >>miseries and tell us where it comes from? > >John Baker: >>I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," which I believe >>was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be best-known for Frank >>Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a discussion of the term at >>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > >As that website notes, "great googly moogly" appeared in Howlin' Wolf's >"Goin' Down Slow" (1961). It's in a spoken part by Willie Dixon: > >----- >http://www.furious.com/perfect/wolf/lyrics1.html > >Now looky here. >I did not say I was a millionare. >But I said I have spent more money than a millionare. >Cause if I had kept all of the money I had already spent, >I'd woulda been a millionare a long time ago. >And women? Well, great googly moogly. >----- > > >The "great googa mooga" variant also appeared in the Cadets' version of >the Jayhawks' "Stranded in the Jungle" (1956) and in the Temptations' >"Ball of Confusion" (1970). > >--Ben Zimmer The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll have to check my collection. In any case, the Spaniels' use of this version of the expression postdates its use by the Magic Tones and and antedates the version spoken by Wilie Dixon, IIAC. The first version that I heard is the one used by the Cadets. "I smelled somethin' cookin' / An' I looked to see / That's when I found out / They was cookin' me! / Great googa mooga! / Lemme outta here!" -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 02:56:28 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 21:56:28 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Baker, John" >Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >discussion of the term at >http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. > >John Baker "... Best-known for Frank Zappa's use ,,," Who's Frank Zappa? -Wilson Gray > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Michael Quinion >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Great googily moogily > > >A WWWords subscriber from Poland asks me about "great googily >moogily". Can somebody put both him and me out of our respective >miseries and tell us where it comes from? > >-- >Michael Quinion >Editor, World Wide Words >E-mail: >Web: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 03:02:58 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:02:58 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: "Baker, John" >>Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >>which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >>best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >>discussion of the term at >>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >> >>John Baker > > >"... Best-known for Frank Zappa's use ,,," > >Who's Frank Zappa? > >-Wilson Gray The maternal grandfather of invention. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 03:09:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 22:09:46 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Clai Rice >Subject: mofo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. >I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, >white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo >Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black >vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, >muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >spelling pronunciation? > >Clai Rice I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things may no longer be as I remember them. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 04:24:15 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:24:15 -0800 Subject: snowglobes? snowdomes? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I saw some "domes" in the '50s. They were hemispherical, filled with water and confetti-like "snow." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Mark A. Mandel" >Subject: Re: snowglobes? snowdomes? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Jonathan Lighter opines: > >>>>> > >"Snowglobes" should be globular. "Snowdomes" should be domes. > <<<<< > >But "snow globes" is what I have always heard them called and called them, >not "snow domes". > >-- Mark >[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] I've seen domes, but they were solid glass and had some kind of pictorial matter affixed to the bottom so that the dome was, in effect, a magnifying glass. My late stepfather had one with a photo of his first-born child, which had died in infancy. He used it as a paperweight. I've never seen one that was hollow with "snow," nor do I know of any special name for this item. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 04:53:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 20:53:22 -0800 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: On my first day in Tennessee, I went into a Krystal near campus for some fast food. The first utterance I heard spoken by a very middle-aged white Tennessean was " [ 'kE:p yI ] ? " After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Can I help you?" A week or so ago I was being thwarted once again by the automatic checkout machine at the supermarket. A young black employee approached me and clearly inquired " [ dI 'mEz @ ] ?" After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Did it mess up?" So "muh-fuh" must be out there. I haven't heard it, but I have heard [ 'm@: f@ k@ ] , with reduction to the vanishing point of the secoind syllable. I've heard "mofo" from white guys only, all of them roughly my age, i.e., young enough to have been influenced by the late Hunter S. Thompson, but old enough to be offered gratuitous senior discounts at places like Krystal. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: mofo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Clai Rice >Subject: mofo >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the pronunciation. >I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned up, >white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the Mofo >Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively Black >vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is me, >muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >spelling pronunciation? > >Clai Rice I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things may no longer be as I remember them. -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From douglas at NB.NET Fri Mar 25 05:26:04 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:26:04 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: <20050325045322.86030.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE /mVfV/, maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes "d" when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for maybe a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, but I did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" affectation maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. -- Doug Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 05:40:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:40:11 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On my first day in Tennessee, I went into a Krystal near campus for > some fast food. The first utterance I heard spoken by a very > middle-aged white Tennessean was " [ 'kE:p yI ] ? " > > After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Can I > help you?" > > A week or so ago I was being thwarted once again by the automatic > checkout machine at the supermarket. A young black employee > approached me and clearly inquired > " [ dI 'mEz @ ] ?" > > After a repetition or two I eventually discovered this meant "Did it > mess up?" > > So "muh-fuh" must be out there. I haven't heard it, but I have heard > [ 'm@: > f@ k@ ] , with reduction to the vanishing point of the secoind > syllable. I agree. I've never heard anyone say "muh-fuh" except facetiously. But, in the course of my life, I've noticed that there are people who speak seriously in a manner that I had previously considered to be a joke, such as pronouncing "motherfucker" as "mofo." In like manner, I've also, upon occasion, had to deal with people who - I know that this will be hard to believe, but I assure you that it's true, shocking though it be - thought that there was something odd about my speech. -Wilson Gray > > I've heard "mofo" from white guys only, all of them roughly my age, > i.e., young enough to have been influenced by the late Hunter S. > Thompson, but old enough to be offered gratuitous senior discounts at > places like Krystal. > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Clai Rice >> Subject: mofo >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> I'm wondering about the word mofo, specifically about the >> pronunciation. >> I've always pronounced both vowels as long o (rhymes with "go"), but >> secretly suspected that this pronunciation was some kind of cleaned >> up, >> white man's version of the term. I've certainly never pronounced the >> source term this way when actually cursing or being cool. OED (and >> RHDAS) gives Thompson's 1967 _Hell's Angels_ as the first use, "the >> Mofo >> Club", but the second citation is "1970 R. D. ABRAHAMS Positively >> Black >> vi. 154 Soul is walkin' down the street in a way that says, 'This is >> me, >> muh-fuh!'". This indicates to me that orthographic mofo might be a >> spelling of "muh-fuh". Is the pronunciation of mofo with long o a >> spelling pronunciation? >> >> Clai Rice > > > I've heard it pronounced as "mofo" only by white people. I've always > used "muthuhfuckuh," myself. "Muh-fuh," in my experience, is used > only as a joking, hyper-BE pseudo-euphemism. Of course, given that, > as a board-certified senior citizen and, hence, old-school, things > may no longer be as I remember them. > > -Wilson Gray > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 07:04:04 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:04:04 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or > "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE > /mVfV/, > maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of > "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes > "d" > when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for > maybe > a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows > were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, > but I > did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been > euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" > affectation > maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. > > -- Doug Wilson > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) -Wilson Gray From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 08:38:02 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 03:38:02 -0500 Subject: noted without comment Message-ID: >NO WAH. > >The Atchison Champion says: "This State of Kansas is a Republican State. >It gave Gov. Hayes over forty thousand majority. Its people are a martial >people. Of its >total population, a very large proportion are trained and disciplined >soldiers. But there is not one citizen of Kansas in a thousand who does >not want the disputed >Presidency settled quietly and peacefully, under the forms of law. There >has been no talk of "wah" in Kansas. Our people know what war means, and >they want >none of it. They take no stock in and have no patience with the >blustering, brawling rascals who are howling for "wah." They are quietly >going about their business, >"and waiting for the verdict," and perfectly content to accept it, whether >it be for Hayes or Tilden." > >Winfield Courier, January 4, 1877. Editorial Page. Michael McKernan From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT Fri Mar 25 10:28:34 2005 From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:28:34 +0100 Subject: four and twenty Message-ID: Curiouser and curiouser: "[...]No less mysterious is the way the terms 'twenty-one' and 'one-and-twenty' move up [England] in alternating bands. In London people say 'twenty-one', but if you move forty miles to the north they say 'one-and-twenty'. Forty miles north of that and they say 'twenty-one' again. And so it goes right up the way to Scotland, changing from one to the other every forty miles or so. Just to complicate things, in Boston, in Lincolnshire, they say that a person is twenty-one years old, but that he has one-and-twenty marbles, while twenty miles away in Louth, they say the very opposite.'MOTHER TONGUE,Bill Bryson Penguin 1991 (at Chapter 7 'Varieties of English' on the subject of 'The Linguistic Atlas of Britain') M.I.Amorelli Faculties of Economics and Law University of Sassari ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Frank" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 9:21 AM Subject: four and twenty > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Paul Frank > Subject: four and twenty > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm curious. When did English speakers quit saying things like four and > twenty in normal conversation? Did they ever? The reason I'm asking is > that this morning I blogged the following: > > The French say soixante-dix-neuf (sixty-ten-nine) when they want to > express the number 79. Germans say neunundsechzig (nine-and-sixty). In > an interview with Der Spiegel, a German mathematician proposes that the > way numbers are spoken in German be changed to make mental arithmetic > easier. He wants Germans to say zwanzigeins (twenty-one) instead of > einundzwanzig (one-and-twenty). Come to think of it, backward numbers > used to be common in English too. Children still sing the old nursery > rhyme: > > Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye, > Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie. > When the pie was opened the birds began to sing, > Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king? > > Paul > ________________________ > Paul Frank > Chinese-English translator > paulfrank at post.harvard.edu > http://languagejottings.blogspot.com > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.2 - Release Date: 11/03/2005 > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 14:23:57 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 09:23:57 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times Message-ID: Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? ... There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night early in the tournament. "Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. "Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." ... From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:08:32 2005 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:08:32 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 09:23 AM 3/25/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's >Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's >basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? > >.... >There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to >market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, >CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports >executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night >early in the tournament. > >"Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. >"Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some >Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the >tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." > >But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." >.... Especially in these strange times. Go, Mountaineers! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Mar 25 16:33:28 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:33:28 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Richard Sandomir, the sports media columnist, has a column in today's >Times on the history of "March Madness" as applied to the NCAA men's >basketball tournament (and earlier tournaments) at >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25tv.html? > >... >There was no promotional strategy behind using March Madness to >market the tournament. It just happened, and has stuck since 1982, >CBS's first year in the madhouse. Kevin O'Malley, a former CBS Sports >executive, recalled hearing the words for the first time one night >early in the tournament. > >"Brent Musburger used it," said O'Malley, an industry consultant. >"Around that time, some people used the phrase in print. Maybe some >Midwestern writers used it, but it really blossomed when the >tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985." > >But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." ~~~~~~~~ Surely the madness of the March hare must enter into this somehow....? A. Murie ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 25 16:32:24 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:32:24 -0500 Subject: mofo Message-ID: I may have put this up earlier but it involves a story from a friend of mine who one time was driving up a street near where I lived and saw something written on the wall of a store which read "(girl's name forgotten) is a hoe." It took him all the way driving back home to realize that the word hoe did not refer to an agricultural implement. In other words spelling is not one of the strong points of graffiti artists. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 2:04 AM Subject: Re: mofo > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: mofo >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or >> "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE >> /mVfV/, >> maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of >> "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes >> "d" >> when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for >> maybe >> a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows >> were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, >> but I >> did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been >> euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" >> affectation >> maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic > pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that > vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or > have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case > that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" > really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the > speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware > that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your > parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, > perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, > there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the > Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two > consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning > with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An > example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) > > -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 16:45:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:45:31 -0800 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: May I recommend HDAS II for its wide selection of "m.f"-style partial euphemisms ? Including, of course, "m.f." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: mofo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or > "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE > /mVfV/, > maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of > "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes > "d" > when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for > maybe > a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young fellows > were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, > but I > did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been > euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" > affectation > maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. > > -- Doug Wilson > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) -Wilson Gray --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:51:37 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:51:37 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before > Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group > began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its > assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay > suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute > to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." Here's the earliest on ProQuest: 1940 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 30 Mar. 19 (headline) Hoosier March madness boils to climax today. Nearly 15,000 will see prep basket finals. ... (text) The 29th annual Indiana High school basketball tournament, a show which once was defined as Hoosier hysterics or March madness. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Mar 25 16:57:16 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:57:16 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA840@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: --On Thursday, March 24, 2005 10:38 AM -0600 "Mullins, Bill" wrote: >> Fatty, fatty, >> Two by four, >> Swinging on the kitchen door. > > ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in > elementary school for saying this to a girl). My grade school classmates sometimes added a fourth line: Fatty, fatty Two by four Couldn't get through the bathroom door So he did it on the floor. Peter Mc. ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 17:17:27 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:17:27 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Peter A. McGraw wrote: > >Fatty, fatty >Two by four >Couldn't get through the bathroom door >So he did it on the floor. > When I was taunted with this, as a child, there were at least two more lines: licked it up and did some more Michael McKernan From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Mar 25 17:50:17 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:50:17 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:33 AM -0500 3/25/05, sagehen wrote: > > > >>But March Madness, as a basketball term, had been used well before >>Musburger said it, by the Illinois High School Association. The group >>began running a boys basketball tournament in 1908, and in 1939, its >>assistant executive secretary, Henry V. Porter, wrote an essay >>suggesting that a "little March madness may complement and contribute >>to sanity and help keep society on an even keel." >~~~~~~~~ >Surely the madness of the March hare must enter into this somehow....? >A. Murie > Sandomir doesn't mention either the March hare or the Mad Hatter, but I also assume they're implicated somehow. He does note Andy Borowitz's observation that "under pressure from the National Institutes of Health, the N.C.A.A. has changed the name to 'March Bipolar Disorder'." Larry From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Fri Mar 25 18:38:23 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: "March Madness" in the Times Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > He does note Andy >Borowitz's observation that "under pressure from the National >Institutes of Health, the N.C.A.A. has changed the name to 'March >Bipolar Disorder'." So that's why they call it an 'up and down game'. Michael McKernan From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 25 18:55:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:55:59 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050325050301.6E036B253E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Larry asks: >>>> speaking of wall scrawls, and bathroom graffiti in particular, whence Here I sit, broken-hearted Came to shit and only farted. ? I'm assuming Fred will need an first cite on that for his Yale Dictionary of Quotations, although it might be hard to determine the author. I see from the archives that Barry (in an October 2000 posting) found this in a "Realist" issue from 1968--in the pay-toilet version, "Paid to shit"--but its provenance is certainly a lot earlier. <<<< There's even a very vulgar Latin version: Hic iaceo, cor meum peredi Pecunia impensa modo pepedi. But you needn't look in the Pompeii graffiti for that citation. One of my wife's Latin professors at CCNY used to while away the subway commute by translating graffiti into Latin. Vos salutat Marcus Mandelensis [anglice a voce scripsit, latine a manu] From kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET Fri Mar 25 19:41:29 2005 From: kathyseal at ADELPHIA.NET (Kathy Seal) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:41:29 -0800 Subject: speed or rate of change Message-ID: I'm trying to find a message I saw on the list sometimes in the past few weeks, but didn't save. Someone was lamenting his inability to accept the way language changes. Or saying that he didn't want to accept changes, even though he knew he should. I couldn't find it in the archive. Does anyone remember this? Thanks, Kathy KATHY SEAL 310-452-2769 Coauthor, Motivated Minds: Raising Children to Love Learning (Holt, 2001) www.Kathyseal.net From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 19:57:47 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 11:57:47 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <1111519438.424070ce66d80@my.visi.com> Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in > South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and > "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>[O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<< some observations: (1) the "all" here (between subject and VP) looks like just a floated quantifier ("they all" = "all of them"), not like a quotative element. (2) *quotative* "be" -- in examples like "And she was, 'You have to go now' " (where what follows the form of "be" is a little performance of the quoted material, perhaps in a dramatically emphatic intonation and/or voice quality) -- is not at all uncommon. but such examples don't have a complementizer "that". (3) so this looks like a kind of *reportive* (indirect-quotation) "be", which seems to prefer "that" in most cases. anyway, what's being offered is not directly an account (however approximate) of some bit of speech, but rather an account of some opinions (which, of course, we know about via what people said, though we make no claim to be supplying even an approximation of their actual productions). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 20:01:09 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:01:09 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or "all are agreed that"? This kind of slip happens all the time. Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 22, 2005, at 11:23 AM, Tom Kysilko wrote: > The following was posted to another listserve by a recent college > grad, female, with a name that suggests that she may have origins in > South Africa. This may be a case of an omitted word between "are" and > "that" - such as "agreed" - but maybe not. >>>[O]f the doctors who have access to Schiavo [sic] and her full medical history and are not affiliated with either side (ie court appointed), they all are that she is in a persistent vegetative state, severely brain damaged (her cerebral cortex is filled with spinal fluid), and has no hope of recovery. <<< some observations: (1) the "all" here (between subject and VP) looks like just a floated quantifier ("they all" = "all of them"), not like a quotative element. (2) *quotative* "be" -- in examples like "And she was, 'You have to go now' " (where what follows the form of "be" is a little performance of the quoted material, perhaps in a dramatically emphatic intonation and/or voice quality) -- is not at all uncommon. but such examples don't have a complementizer "that". (3) so this looks like a kind of *reportive* (indirect-quotation) "be", which seems to prefer "that" in most cases. anyway, what's being offered is not directly an account (however approximate) of some bit of speech, but rather an account of some opinions (which, of course, we know about via what people said, though we make no claim to be supplying even an approximation of their actual productions). arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:05:37 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:05:37 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Actually, I'm with you all the way. It just struck me as really, > really, really weird that replacing "that" with "like" makes that > sentence feel so much better. As one of my old profs used to say, > "How can this *be*?!" see below. > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Tom Kysilko >> Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> With quotative "like", the sentence would feel better to me as "... >> they're all >> like ..." rather than "... they all are like ..." >> >> Maybe it's just me, you're letting floated-quantifier "all" and quotative "all" get mooshed together. the "all" is irrevelant, i think: convert to "all of them are that..." and think about that. >> Quoting Wilson Gray : >> >>> Try replacing that "that" with "like" and see how the sentence >>> feels. >>> Just a suggestion. but this converts a reportive (of, i think, a relatively uncommon but not unattested type) to a genuine quotative (with "like", and these are *really* common). see my previous posting. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:49:53 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:49:53 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325200109.29252.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote, re "they all are that she...": > How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or > "all are agreed that"? > > This kind of slip happens all the time. what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. what's the mechanism? more important, where do we find (inadvertent) speech errors that are parallel to either of these scenarios? i can't say for sure that there aren't parallels, but they certainly aren't of any well-known type in the speech error literature. you might want to say that "all are that" is a blend of "all agree that" and "all are agreed that". but this is stunningly unlike normal syntactic blends, in that on this analysis the product omits something shared by both of the sources (a form of the verb "agree"), and that's really rare. (syntactic blends arise from competition between plans for two alternative ways of expressing "the same thing", and consequently they tend very strongly to preserve material that's in both plans.) the larger point is that you can't just appeal to "slips" without having some proposal about how the slips arise. > Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? well, i *think* i've seen parallel examples that didn't seem to be slips -- though i don't have a file on them, and trying to google for them is hopeless. however, quotative "be" examples (without "that") are not at all uncommon (isa buchstaller has a pile of these), and reportive "be" (with "that") would be entirely parallel. He was "You're an idiot". He was that I was an idiot. (it's actually hard to imagine the first of these being fairly common without some people innovating the second.) this doesn't settle the matter. some real work has to be done on "be that" examples in real life. (please, *please*, someone look at this. i have more little projects like this going than i could finish in fifty years, much less the time i have left.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Fri Mar 25 20:50:34 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:50:34 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: <20050325050301.6E036B253E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu> Message-ID: [somebody:] >>> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. [Bill Mullins:] >>If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. [Larry Horn:] >I recall "If at first you don't succeed, quit." What's the source of this one?: If at first you don't succeed Slash your wrists and watch them bleed. When concerned and in great doubt Wave your arms and run about. -- Mark, thinking of Mad Magazine, Edward Gorey, Gelett Burgess, Tom Lehrer, and similar sources, of whom only Lehrer seems plausible for this one [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.] From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 21:41:30 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:41:30 -0500 Subject: mofo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, Jon. I should have pointed that out myself. -Wilson On Mar 25, 2005, at 11:45 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > May I recommend HDAS II for its wide selection of "m.f"-style partial > euphemisms ? > > Including, of course, "m.f." > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: mofo > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: mofo >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> I used to hear something like "muh-fuh" for "motherf*cker" or >> "motherf*cking" routinely at school around 1961. It wasn't QUITE >> /mVfV/, >> maybe more like /mV at fV/ with just a trace of the second syllable of >> "mother" remaining but with both the "th" sound (which was sometimes >> "d" >> when fully pronounced) and the "k" sound entirely elided (except for >> maybe >> a ghost of a glottal stop at the end). It may be that the young >> fellows >> were putting on an exaggerated pronunciation as Wilson Gray suggests, >> but I >> did not perceive it that way at the time, and it could not have been >> euphemistic (but could have been a "tough guy" or "cool guy" >> affectation >> maybe). I don't think I've heard this lately. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> > > Doug, my friend, when I said that ''muhfuh" was pseudo-euphemistic > pronunciation, I had in mind only my personal experience amongst that > vanishingly-small portion of the colored population with whom I am or > have been personally acquainted. Among them, it definitely is the case > that any pronunciation other than "muthuhfuckuh" or "motherfucker" > really is considered a pseudo-euphemism. That is to say, though the > speaker hasn't actually said "motherfucker," hearers are fully aware > that that's what he means. You wouldn't use this when talking to your > parents, but you might use it with your wife or your girlfriend, > perhaps saying "Pardon my French" or some such thing. And, of course, > there's the age gap. By 1961, I had already spent several years in the > Army. Furthermore, any two consecutive syllables or even two > consecutive words, one beginning with "m" followed by one beginning > with "f" can be interpreted as a coded form of "motherfucker." An > example of this kind of coded form is the phrase, "my friend." ;-) > > -Wilson Gray > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 22:15:34 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:15:34 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:38 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Variants from a misspent youth: > >> If at first you don't succeed, slide for second. > > If at first you don't succeed, suck suck suck til you do succeed. > >> You can lead a horse to water, >> But you cannot make him drink. >> You can send a fool to college, >> But you cannot make him think. > > You can lead a horticulture [whore to culture] > but you can't make her think. > >> April Fool, >> Go to school, >> Tell your teacher, >> She's a fool. > > Trick or treat, smell my feet, > Give me something good to eat. > >> I made you look, >> I made you look, >> I made you buy a penny book. > > ....Made you read a story book. I made you look You dirty crook You stole your mama's pocketbook. > >> Fatty, fatty, >> Two by four, >> Swinging on the kitchen door. > > ....Couldn't get through the bathroom door. (I got in trouble in > elementary school for saying this to a girl). > >> My name's West, >> I ain't in this mess. > > From the movie "Pulp Fiction": > "Hey, my name's Paul and this shit's between y'all." (Said by a > character named Paul) > I always assumed it was just some clever dialogue from Quentin > Tarantino, now I'm not so sure. > My name's Wes. Leave me out this mess. My name's Bob. I ain't doin' this job. Make like Ezzard And hit the desert. Step out on the patio, Daddio. To paraphrase Jimmy Durante, "They got a million of 'em." Note that I'm using "they got" in its non-standard meaning of "there are." -Wilson Gray From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Fri Mar 25 22:19:42 2005 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 14:19:42 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <4e49379b13ee17926f2c1704466f0bad@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." If the "all are that" sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote correctly, there was only that single occurrence. The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," decided that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at the wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over the sentence--nothing grammatical about it. Peter Mc. --On Friday, March 25, 2005 12:49 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > >> How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >> "all are agreed that"? >> >> This kind of slip happens all the time. > > what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first > suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second > proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the > opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by > dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. > what's the mechanism? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Mar 25 22:25:56 2005 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:25:56 -0500 Subject: ..English as a code.. Message-ID: A news item, posted to the list merely for informational purposes. A conceptual approach to programming, from MIT. "Natural languages like English, on the other hand, are universally accessible, said Liu. 'Natural language is so semantically rich and flexible that if it could be computationalized as a programming language, maybe everyone could write programs,' he said." Story at: http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2005/032305/Tool_turns_English_to_code_032305.html George Cole Shippensburg University From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Fri Mar 25 22:27:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 17:27:17 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2005, at 11:29 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> OT: GOODBYE AOL? >> >> My AOL at home (I'm now at the NYU Bobst Library) died last >> night, and I've had enough of my dumb dial-up connection. I >> downloaded the "Security Edition," but still must battle >> through "Party Poker" and "Casino.net" interruptions. >> >> Should I get AOL "Privacy Wall" and AOL Broadband? Road >> Runner? Verizon DSL? Juno? Any suggestions? >> > > Get a cable modem from your cable TV company. > And make sure to find out what their installation and other fees are. Sometimes, you can get a bunch of stuff free either by switching or sometimes just by threatening to. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 23:56:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:56:30 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A spell check won't find it. You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this is crazy!'" JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote, re "they all are that she...": > How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or > "all are agreed that"? > > This kind of slip happens all the time. what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. what's the mechanism? more important, where do we find (inadvertent) speech errors that are parallel to either of these scenarios? i can't say for sure that there aren't parallels, but they certainly aren't of any well-known type in the speech error literature. you might want to say that "all are that" is a blend of "all agree that" and "all are agreed that". but this is stunningly unlike normal syntactic blends, in that on this analysis the product omits something shared by both of the sources (a form of the verb "agree"), and that's really rare. (syntactic blends arise from competition between plans for two alternative ways of expressing "the same thing", and consequently they tend very strongly to preserve material that's in both plans.) the larger point is that you can't just appeal to "slips" without having some proposal about how the slips arise. > Why assume it's a new linguistic feature? well, i *think* i've seen parallel examples that didn't seem to be slips -- though i don't have a file on them, and trying to google for them is hopeless. however, quotative "be" examples (without "that") are not at all uncommon (isa buchstaller has a pile of these), and reportive "be" (with "that") would be entirely parallel. He was "You're an idiot". He was that I was an idiot. (it's actually hard to imagine the first of these being fairly common without some people innovating the second.) this doesn't settle the matter. some real work has to be done on "be that" examples in real life. (please, *please*, someone look at this. i have more little projects like this going than i could finish in fifty years, much less the time i have left.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Mar 25 23:59:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 15:59:26 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Exactly what I did not have the smarts to express, Peter. JL "Peter A. McGraw" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Peter A. McGraw" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." If the "all are that" sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote correctly, there was only that single occurrence. The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," decided that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at the wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over the sentence--nothing grammatical about it. Peter Mc. --On Friday, March 25, 2005 12:49 PM -0800 "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > >> How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >> "all are agreed that"? >> >> This kind of slip happens all the time. > > what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first > suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? your second > proposal would have intended "all are agreed [or: of the > opinion/belief] that" surfacing as "all are that", presumably by > dropping the element heading the "that"-clause complement; again. > what's the mechanism? ***************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 26 00:56:38 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:56:38 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955); OT: Goodbye AOL? Message-ID: I've had Roadrunner in Akron for about 5 years. We were the first city in the US to get Roadrunner. And I have nothing but praise for them. You can maintain your AOL account dial up for as little as $4.95/month. This gives you a certain amount of minutes online/month, but I don't remember. Go to "Keyword" "billing" and explore. sam From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 01:26:56 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 20:26:56 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325200109.29252.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>How do we know the writer didn't mean to write "all agree that"? Or >>"all are >>agreed that"? > >>This kind of slip happens all the time. Why assume it's a new linguistic >>feature? > >>JL ~~~~~~~ >what, *exactly*, kind of slip do you have in mind? your first >suggestion would have intended "all agree [or: believe/say/maintain...] > that" surfacing as "all are that"; what's the mechanism? >.. arnold ~~~~~~~~ At the risk of shutting off an interesting discussion, I have to say it seems all-too-easy to account for an omission of this sort as an artifact of keyboarding/emailing. Meaning to substitute a better word for the first one chosen, deleting the one & then forgetting to replace it with the better. Proofreading, as we all know, can overlook an error when we know what we *meant* to say. A. Murie I had written the above & tried to send it but found the line in use, so went on to read the rest of the accumulated posts, among which was Peter's saying the same thing, in effect. Can't be the Ohio effect, since Peter & I share that with arnold....maybe Oregon comes into it, somehow............? From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 02:00:22 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:00:22 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1111760382@[10.218.201.228]> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote: > As I understood Jonathan's post, the mechanism he was referring to is > called a "cut-and-paste glitch" or a "typo." to pick some nits: there are many kinds of typos, of which the cut-and-paste variety is just one. i have a small collection of the cut-and-paste type, but none quite like this one. (but see below.) > If the "all are that" > sequence had occurred more than once in the passage, it would be less > likely to be explainable as a typo, but if I recall the original quote > correctly, there was only that single occurrence. > > The writer could easily have started with "are in agreement that," > decided > that "agreed" was shorter and therefore preferable, deleted the "in > agreement" and forgotten to follow through by typing in "agreed." Or > gotten distracted in the middle of typing the sentence and resumed at > the > wrong place. Etc. etc. Just now I forgot to type the "to" in "the > mechanism he was referring to" above, then added it when I looked over > the > sentence--nothing grammatical about it. ah, this last is a skip-ahead typo, and it is indeed common. the "they all are that..." example could have been a typo of this sort. i see now that the other scenarios above are possible, too. look, i'm not insisting that this one example has to be a grammatical innovation. i *am* entertaining that possibility, because it resembles examples i've seen that are very unlikely to be slips of any sort. meanwhile, i'm strongly objecting to the view that if some production can be seen as a slip of some sort, then it should be, and consequently should be dismissed from further discussion. one thing i need to stress, again, for the hundredth or so time: the very same production can have different statuses on different occasions. in particular, for some people at some times it can be an inadvertent error, a slip of one sort or another, while for other people or on other occasions, it can be a genuine variant form -- advertent, though divergent from many other people's varieties. in the case at hand, it would be really nice to know what the original writer thought about this production. and to find out if similar productions occur in speech (where the mechanisms that might give rise to this particular kind of typo are probably not at work). and to see if this writer produces similar occurrences with some frequency. and to see what other people do. consider the case of "be done one's X", as in "I'm done my homework" 'I'm done with my homework'. if you saw one example in writing, you might say that it was obviously a skip-ahead typo, an inadvertent elimination of intended "with", and so deserves no attention from students of linguistic variation. (it would be of interest only to (psycho)linguists and psychologists who study speech errors.) but then it turns out that there are plenty of examples. from speech as well as writing. and people who use it say that that's what they meant to say. so variationists/dialectologists have to take it seriously, even if they've never noticed it before and find it flatly ungrammatical for them. what i'm saying about the "be that+S" example is that i know enough to think that it might not be a slip. provisionally, i'm taking it seriously. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 02:27:50 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 18:27:50 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050325235630.54721.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of > slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily > distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A > spell check won't find it. > > You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this > is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" the first is very frequent indeed, and the second has been attested for roughly 25 years and is not a slip of any sort. > But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this > is crazy!'" the first is certainly attested in speech (and sometimes in informal writing) and does not appear to be an error. things like "She was that 'I'm crazy about it' " -- a stab at direct quotation -- strike me as really dubious, but they're not what we were talking about, which is things like "She was that she was crazy about it" -- indirect quotation. i *think* i've heard/seen examples of this. i'm at home now, away from the material i have on this stuff, and it's not on my computer. unfortunately, the data i have isn't coded for the relevant characteristics, so i'd have to sort through it by hand, which is tedious indeed. a possibly analogous case... work on "is is" (or "double BE" or whatever you call it) reveals that though the second form of "be" (in things like "The thing is is that we have to go") *can* be a kind of disfluency, a mere repetition or partial restart, it very frequently is just a part of certain speakers' (and some writers') English. more recently, my own data collection (as part of a group project at stanford) shows that (a) there are many more types of systematic "is is" than i had ever imagined could occur (*if you don't listen for them, you don't hear them*), and (b) there are speakers for whom "is is" is virtually categorical, occurring nearly every time it would be possible -- these people just don't produce single-"is" examples like "The thing is that I have to go" -- though i would never have imagined that there were such people. the moral is that just because you don't think you've ever heard it doesn't mean it doesn't occur (even occur frequently). and, of course, that just because something is sometimes a slip doesn't mean that it always (or even usually) is. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 03:38:58 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:38:58 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative "new structure" is similarly well established. Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this phenomenon needs to better substantiated. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 3:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > If numerous other examples are available, well and good. The kind of > slip I'm thinking of is of the computer kind. One is momentarily > distracted or hits the wrong button and "agree" comes out "are." A > spell check won't find it. > > You'll forgive my skepticism. I've certainly heard "I was like, 'this > is crazy'" and even "I was all, 'this is crazy!" the first is very frequent indeed, and the second has been attested for roughly 25 years and is not a slip of any sort. > But definitely not "I was, 'this is crazy!'" or "She's all that 'this > is crazy!'" the first is certainly attested in speech (and sometimes in informal writing) and does not appear to be an error. things like "She was that 'I'm crazy about it' " -- a stab at direct quotation -- strike me as really dubious, but they're not what we were talking about, which is things like "She was that she was crazy about it" -- indirect quotation. i *think* i've heard/seen examples of this. i'm at home now, away from the material i have on this stuff, and it's not on my computer. unfortunately, the data i have isn't coded for the relevant characteristics, so i'd have to sort through it by hand, which is tedious indeed. a possibly analogous case... work on "is is" (or "double BE" or whatever you call it) reveals that though the second form of "be" (in things like "The thing is is that we have to go") *can* be a kind of disfluency, a mere repetition or partial restart, it very frequently is just a part of certain speakers' (and some writers') English. more recently, my own data collection (as part of a group project at stanford) shows that (a) there are many more types of systematic "is is" than i had ever imagined could occur (*if you don't listen for them, you don't hear them*), and (b) there are speakers for whom "is is" is virtually categorical, occurring nearly every time it would be possible -- these people just don't produce single-"is" examples like "The thing is that I have to go" -- though i would never have imagined that there were such people. the moral is that just because you don't think you've ever heard it doesn't mean it doesn't occur (even occur frequently). and, of course, that just because something is sometimes a slip doesn't mean that it always (or even usually) is. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sat Mar 26 04:09:07 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 23:09:07 -0500 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two words, is there a technical name? Is this still a portmanteau? And, what's the earliest word of this type? I assume that portmanteau is the technical name for taking the first syllable of one word and the final syllable of another and combing them to form a new word, such as motel. I know that this word form goes back to at least Lewis Carrol. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Mar 26 05:15:39 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:15:39 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <20050326033858.62006.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're > attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - > particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - > simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in > speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative > "new structure" is similarly well established. exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction could be heard all the time. > Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need > explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an > epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this > phenomenon needs to better substantiated. jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd heard some of the second. you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of hand? what am i, chopped liver? i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless there's a significant body of them. i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i myself can supply a body of evidence, now. i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't *you* get on the job? arnold From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 10:05:17 2005 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 02:05:17 -0800 Subject: Local meaning Hawaiian Message-ID: In an article in the Seattle Sun (March 9 to April 6 2005, Vol. 9, Iss. No. 3) entitled "What's Cookin'", the word "local" is used twice to mean Hawaiian. (I also should note that the spelling "Hawai'ian" is used, backed up by 38,700 hits on Google, but is this pronunciation really used?) "Some of the more authentically Hawai'ian dishes on Clara's menu are grilled short ribs (market price) which in the islands is known as Korean kolbi [sic: kalbi]; and chicken cutlet ($10), a boneless, breaded chicken called katsu in Hawai'i. Locals also eat pork prepared in the same way known as tonkatsu." The only sensible interpretation of "local" that I can see is "Hawaaiian person" rather than a Seattle local. It appears again in the same article, this time as an adjective: "Clara's offers no poi or local favorite spam musobi [sic: musubi] either." Benjamin Barrett From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 26 10:17:13 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:17:13 -0500 Subject: Hugungous! Message-ID: Noted on Gawker.com : ----- According to The New York Times? William Grimes, memoirs are huge. Huger than huge! Hugungous! ----- A blend of "huge" and "hum-o/u-ngous"... though "humongous" is itself supposedly a blend of "huge" and "monstrous" (or "tremendous"). So is this a reblending? Some Google-counts: hugungous 90 hugongous 32 hujungous 12 hujongous 20 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugungus 25 hugongus 5 hugeungous 11 hugeongous 3 huge-ungous 21 huge-ongous 1 hugemongous 1,600 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugemungous 448 huge-mongous 301 huge-mungous 114 hugemongus 329 hugemungus 139 (incl. Urban Dictionary) huge-mongus 37 huge-mungus 208 hugeomongous 34 hugeomungous 3 huge-o-mungous 21 huge-o-mongous 16 hugeamongous 33 hugeamungous 3 huge-a-mongous 20 huge-a-mungous 5 --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:08:06 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:08:06 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I didn't mean to be insulting, Arnold, or to claim that my recollections trump yours, or to insist that this structure cannot exist. My post simply expressed a measure of professional skepticism and offered a conceivable alternative hypothesis for your consideration. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're > attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - > particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - > simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in > speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative > "new structure" is similarly well established. exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction could be heard all the time. > Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need > explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an > epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this > phenomenon needs to better substantiated. jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd heard some of the second. you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of hand? what am i, chopped liver? i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless there's a significant body of them. i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i myself can supply a body of evidence, now. i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't *you* get on the job? arnold --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:17:37 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:17:37 -0800 Subject: mongotacular = "enormous, staggeringly huge" In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Apparently unique but noteworthy anyway : "These drinks were coming in the mongotacular huge-o-rama sizes not meant for human consumption." - www.livejournal.com/users/pseudonymous/28173.html (Feb. 22, 2003). JL Benjamin Zimmer wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Benjamin Zimmer Subject: Hugungous! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Noted on Gawker.com : ----- According to The New York Times? William Grimes, memoirs are huge. Huger than huge! Hugungous! ----- A blend of "huge" and "hum-o/u-ngous"... though "humongous" is itself supposedly a blend of "huge" and "monstrous" (or "tremendous"). So is this a reblending? Some Google-counts: hugungous 90 hugongous 32 hujungous 12 hujongous 20 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugungus 25 hugongus 5 hugeungous 11 hugeongous 3 huge-ungous 21 huge-ongous 1 hugemongous 1,600 (incl. Urban Dictionary) hugemungous 448 huge-mongous 301 huge-mungous 114 hugemongus 329 hugemungus 139 (incl. Urban Dictionary) huge-mongus 37 huge-mungus 208 hugeomongous 34 hugeomungous 3 huge-o-mungous 21 huge-o-mongous 16 hugeamongous 33 hugeamungous 3 huge-a-mongous 20 huge-a-mungous 5 --Ben Zimmer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Mar 26 13:30:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:30:53 -0800 Subject: "Lazarus species" Message-ID: 2005 _Discover_ (Apr.) 70 "Paleontologists have documented a number of plants and animals that disappear at the end of the Permian, stay gone for millions of years, and re-emerge in the middle Triassic. They call these Lazarus species." Goes back to 1995 on Usenet. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:35:26 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:35:26 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Terminology" In-Reply-To: <20050326133053.83637.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: terminology (OED 1801) 1771 Bielfeld, Jacob Friedrich, Freiherr von. The elements of universal erudition. 164 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The anatomists divide their art into several parts, and these divisions are not without their utility: they prevent confusion in a science whose terminology alone requires a considerable study. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:43:40 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:43:40 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Footnote" In-Reply-To: <20050326133053.83637.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: footnote (OED 1841) 1713 John Gillan _A vindication of the fundamental charter of presbytery_ 183 (Eighteeenth Century Collections Online) ERRATA. ... P. 95. L. 13. in the Foot-Note. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:52:55 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:52:55 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Monograph" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: monograph (OED3 1804) 1797 William Curtis _Botanical Magazine_ XI. 363 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Prof. JACQUIN has given us a monograph on the genus _Oxalis_. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 13:55:32 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:55:32 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Terminology" (Corrected Citation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > terminology (OED 1801) > > 1771 Bielfeld, Jacob Friedrich, Freiherr von. The elements of universal > erudition. I. 164 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The > anatomists divide their art into several parts, and these divisions are > not without their utility: they prevent confusion in a science whose > terminology alone requires a considerable study. > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:03:18 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:03:18 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pluralism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pluralism (OED 1818) 1772 Pennington, W.. A free inquiry into the origin, progress, and present state of pluralities. 54 We are sure from historic facts, they could see the turpitude of Pluralism. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:06:34 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:06:34 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Autocrat" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: autocrat (OED 1803) 1797 Mercier, Louis Sbastien. Astras return; or, the halcyon days of France in the year 2440: a dream. Translated from the French, by Harriot Augusta Freeman. 295 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The constitution is not military, and the sovereign no longer styles himself Autocrat, and the whole world is too much enlightened to admit of that odious formality. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:32:14 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:32:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Pedophile" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: pedophile (OED3 1949) 1941 _Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology_ XXXII. 366 We do not know exactly why one person psychophysically infantile becomes an exhibitionist and the other becomes a pedophile. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 14:47:07 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: victimology (OED 1958) 1950 _Federal Probation_ XIV. 58 We need, says the author, a science of victimology. [NOTE: This refers to Fredric Wertham, _The Show of Violence_ (1949), which may well contain an earlier usage of this word.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 15:04:33 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:04:33 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. Newspaperarchive has occurrences back to 1913. ProQuest Historical Newspapers is down right now, so I can't check that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave at WILTON.NET Sat Mar 26 15:09:43 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 07:09:43 -0800 Subject: terms for words In-Reply-To: <005501c531b9$8e91fc90$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: >What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" It's a portmanteau or blend. > Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two > words, is there a technical name? It's an acronym. Acronyms are not restricted to the first letter. Many of the definitions use the term "initial element," which includes the first letter, the first several letters, and the first syllable. I don't know about earliest, but many military acronyms are based, at least in part, on initial syllables: SACEUR, Supreme Allied Commander EURope; NORAD, NORth American Air Defense command; PACAF, PACific Air Forces, etc. --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Mar 26 15:51:51 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:51:51 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20O=20tempura,=20o=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?morays!=20or,=20Who=20needs=20an=20editor=20when=20you=20?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?halve=20a=20spell=20chequer=3F?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/22/05 11:54:46 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > it is not uncommon to see the captain with > >his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping > it > >in front of fans > And what exactly is it that they are pulling and flapping in front of the fans??? From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sat Mar 26 16:28:42 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 10:28:42 -0600 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: > >It's an acronym. Acronyms are not restricted to the first letter. Many of >the definitions use the term "initial element," which includes the first >letter, the first several letters, and the first syllable. I don't know >about earliest, but many military acronyms are based, at least in part, on >initial syllables: SACEUR, Supreme Allied Commander EURope; NORAD, NORth >American Air Defense command; PACAF, PACific Air Forces, etc. The Navy is particularly bad about this. COMSUBPACFLT (Commander, Submarine forces in the Pacific Fleet) goes back to WWII, at least. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 16:33:18 2005 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:33:18 -0500 Subject: O tempura, o morays! or, Who needs an editor when you halve a spell chequer? In-Reply-To: <111.46ce1f10.2f76df17@aol.com> Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 3/22/05 11:54:46 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > > > >>it is not uncommon to see the captain with >> >>>his thumbs tucked inside his jersey, either pulling it taught or flapping >> >>it >> >>>in front of fans >> > > And what exactly is it that they are pulling and flapping in front of the > fans??? The logo or team name on the front of the jersey. -- AF From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 26 16:43:01 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:43:01 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. -- Doug Wilson From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Mar 26 16:58:08 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:58:08 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries Message-ID: Dear Fred, Thanks for the 1913 quote. My entry for prophesize in the Dictionary Companion was constructed before I used NewspaperArchive.com: The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. the fist note at the end of the entry] prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with communication; common) People in the Bible believed the Earth was flat because they didn't know any better. And so it has always been with the false prophets: They prophecize many impossible things because they don't know any better. Science has always brought more knowledge and wisdom to the human race, conquered many diseases and has kept whole civilizations from going the way of the dinosaur. William Haffner (Twin Falls, Idaho) in a letter to the editor in The Idaho Statesman [Boise] (Nexis), April 13, 2000, p 8b If one looks up "forecast" in the dictionary, forecasting is defined as the attempt to predict, foresee, prophecize, plan, or otherwise develop outlooks for future events. The innate need to see into the future has been recognized by political and business figures throughout history. Mark J. Lawless, "Forecasting in the 1990s:' Journal of Business Forecasting Methods & Systems (Nexis), Fall 1997, p 9-12 This was no ordinary deck. It was an exquisite multilevel collage of wood, brick and summer dreams. Though the magazine itself reflected simpler times and failed to prophecize modern deckmania by announcing that "It's obviously more complicated than anything anybody will actually construct out back," it was definitely what I wanted when I entered the universe of property ownership. Diane C. Arkins, "Patio Passe? Try Building Your Own Dream Deck," Chicago Sun-Times (Nexis), March 10,1995, p 25 RIVERA: Yes, Elizabeth? Well, Elizabeth, let me just show the people the books that you've written. I didn't-OK, Elizabeth Baron has writ- ten, "Prophets or-"Prophets or Profits"-you know, prophets that prophecize; profit, make money. Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Psychics, But Were Afraid to Ask," and "The Art of Silence: Meditating the Western Way." Geraldo Rivera, "There's A Ghost In My House: Driving Out The Demons," Geraldo Show (Nexis), June 24, 1994 "1 just do not believe that we can serve the needs of justice in this coun- try with the mounting amount of litigation taking place," he said. "Reagan justices," Senator Cranston prophecized, "would have an extreme right-wing ideological bent that would influence their thinking." His comment was similar to the one he made in 1971 when he opposed the confirma- tion of William H. Rehnquist as a justice. David A. Kaplan, "The Dropouts' Views; What Might Have Been," The National Law Journal (Nexis), March 19, 1984, p 36 1984 (but presumed to be earlier). Composite (suffixation): formed from prophec(y) (BDE: before 1200) + -ize (OED: 1593), as in genericize (DC 12.4: 1985). There is an entry in OED (1815) for phrophecize; Murray labeled this "nonce." Lord Kinnaird whispering, gesticulating, and prophecising. Countess Harriet Granville, Letters 1810-1845, vol. 1, p 87 American Dialect Society on Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 10:04 AM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Fred Shapiro >Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob >Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word >_prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > >Newspaperarchive has occurrences back to 1913. ProQuest Historical >Newspapers is down right now, so I can't check that. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, >Yale Law School forthcoming >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Sun Mar 27 20:14:24 2005 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 12:14:24 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Dear Mr. Gray: I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm also a long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something more than 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big in my late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In listening to it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought ocurred that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears from a casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into compliments. You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these matters. Do you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or if my impression is on or off target? Will appreciate your comments. Bob Fitzke From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 17:43:24 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower has pointed out that "prophecize" is in OED (I hadn't looked under that spelling). Sorry for the error. Now I've joined David Shulman, who frequently proclaimed that he had gotten "snowman" into the dictionaries despite the fact that it had long been in many dictionaries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:30:02 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:30:02 -0500 Subject: terms for words In-Reply-To: <005501c531b9$8e91fc90$bc24a618@sam> Message-ID: At 11:09 PM -0500 3/25/05, Sam Clements wrote: >What is the technical name for a word such as "gaydar?" Hmm. I guess I've always assimilated them to the category of blends, although in principle we could distinguish between these examples and the cases where neither component is an independent word, i.e. the classic portmanteaux like "motel" and "smog" In some cases, it's hard to tell which way an item falls (netiquette, cremains). > >Also, for a word that is formed from the first syllable of two >words, is there a technical name? Is this still a portmanteau? >And, what's the earliest word of this type? I call them "clipronyms", since they're a cross between clipping and acronymy, but I'd welcome a better label. I wonder if German wouldn't be the place to look for early examples, given the exploitation of the process there (Nazi, Gestapo), although of course the Soviets engaged in the same practice (Cominform, Comintern). How long has "Nabisco" been around? > >I assume that portmanteau is the technical name for taking the first >syllable of one word and the final syllable of another and combing >them to form a new word, such as motel. I know that this word form >goes back to at least Lewis Carrol. At least Carroll's Jabberwocky ("chortle", "mimsy", etc.) is where the "portmanteau" label originated. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:43:32 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:43:32 -0500 Subject: Local meaning Hawaiian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 2:05 AM -0800 3/26/05, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >?In an article in the Seattle Sun (March 9 to April 6 2005, Vol. 9, Iss. No. >3) entitled "What's Cookin'", the word "local" is used twice to mean >Hawaiian. (I also should note that the spelling "Hawai'ian" is used, backed >up by 38,700 hits on Google, but is this pronunciation really used?) > >"Some of the more authentically Hawai'ian dishes on Clara's menu are grilled >short ribs (market price) which in the islands is known as Korean kolbi >[sic: kalbi]; and chicken cutlet ($10), a boneless, breaded chicken called >katsu in Hawai'i. Locals also eat pork prepared in the same way known as >tonkatsu." > >The only sensible interpretation of "local" that I can see is "Hawaaiian >person" rather than a Seattle local. > >It appears again in the same article, this time as an adjective: > >"Clara's offers no poi or local favorite spam musobi [sic: musubi] either." I wouldn't say "local" *means* Hawaiian [I'll delete the glottal stop, since that's not relevant to this issue], any more than that "I" *means* 'Larry Horn' when I use it, or 'Benjamin Barrett' when you do. It's a deictic term that picks up its reference from the context. This has been discussed by semanticists--if Geoff Nunberg is lurking, he'd be the one to provide detailed references--but consider "When I go to Seattle, I always visit the local sushi joints", where "local" designates 'of Seattle'. Of course, what's doing the envelope-pushing in your example is that the context for assigning the reference of "local(s)" is the "in Hawaii" in the previous sentence. But I'd wager it's only because the writer thinks s/he's fixed "Hawaii" as the relevant context that "local" can refer to "Hawaiian". larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 19:45:59 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:45:59 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050326113743.02fe1080@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: At 11:43 AM -0500 3/26/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? > >I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, >although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see >the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. > Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. Larry From douglas at NB.NET Sat Mar 26 20:37:02 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 15:37:02 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? >> >>I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a glance, >>although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't see >>the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. >Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological >variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps "conversate" for "converse" (v.) would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), even very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, are excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. -- Doug Wilson From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sat Mar 26 21:01:31 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:01:31 -0500 Subject: "Lazarus species" Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 05:30:53 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >2005 _Discover_ (Apr.) 70 "Paleontologists have documented a number of >plants and animals that disappear at the end of the Permian, stay gone >for millions of years, and re-emerge in the middle Triassic. They call >these Lazarus species." > >Goes back to 1995 on Usenet. "Lazarus effect" was coined by the paleobiologist David Jablonski in 1983 ("Extinction is Here to Stay" _Paleobiology_ Vol. 9, No. 4, Autumn 1983, p. 319). JSTOR has cites for "Lazarus taxa" from 1986 and "Lazarus species" from 1988. Coincidentally (or not?), Frank Herbert of _Dune_ fame coauthored a sci-fi novel with Bill Ransom called _The Lazarus Effect_, also in 1983. --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Mar 26 21:17:14 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: THE SHOW OF VIOLENCE by Fredric Wetham Garden CIty, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc. 1949 Pg. 279 (Index): Victimology, 259 Pg. 259: The murder victim is the forgotten man. What with sensational discussions on the abnormal psychology of the murderer, we have failed to emphasize the unprotectedness of the victim and the complacency of the authorities. One cannot understand the psychology of the murderer if one does not understand the sociology of his victim. What we need is a science of victimology. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Shapiro To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:47:07 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Victimology" victimology (OED 1958) 1950 _Federal Probation_ XIV. 58 We need, says the author, a science of victimology. [NOTE: This refers to Fredric Wertham, _The Show of Violence_ (1949), which may well contain an earlier usage of this word.] Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Mar 26 21:46:05 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:46:05 -0500 Subject: all-too-easy proofreading Message-ID: sagehen wrote: >At the risk of shutting off an interesting discussion, I have to say it seems all-too-easy to account for an omission of this sort as an artifact of keyboarding/emailing. Meaning to substitute a better word for the first one chosen, deleting the one & then forgetting to replace it with the better. Proofreading, as we all know, can overlook an error when we know what we *meant* to say.< ~~~~~~ An unintentional demonstration! Shoulda said "very easy." AM ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:> From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 23:09:51 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:09:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Aggressive" In-Reply-To: <200503262117.j2QLHMAd005232@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: This is one of the most surprisingly weak first uses I have ever encountered in the OED, considering that Samuel Richardson was a major author whose works were presumably read carefully by OED. aggressive (OED 1824) 1716 Well-wisher to his King and country. The Tories address to King G----e. A satirical poem. Representing the conduct of that set of men, from their origin, to the present time. 37 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) As if All-ruling Providence Were pleas'd to punish our Offence, By our _Aggressive_ Treasons vile. 1749 Samuel Richardson _Clarissa_ (ed. 2) IV. 104 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Yet is pleased, that he proposes to avoid _aggressive_ violence, if her Brother and he meet in town. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sat Mar 26 23:15:50 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:15:50 -0500 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 12:15 AM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 25, 2005, at 7:38 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> I agree with you in principle, Arnold, but the structure you're >> attempting to validate and explain seems to require many more exx. - >> particularly, as Peter says, plural exx. in a single discourse - >> simply to confirm its existence. Exx. of "is is" are everywhere in >> speech, but I'm not sure at all that the existence of this putative >> "new structure" is similarly well established. > > exx. of "is is" are indeed everywhere in speech. but linguists have > denied this on the basis of their recollections. when pat mcconvell > reported examples of "is is" on the Linguist List, someone replied that > that might be so elsewhere but she'd never heard any such thing in > australian english, and mcconvell (an australian) noted that virtually > all his examples *were* from australian english, where the construction > could be heard all the time. FWIW, the fact that I'm an "is is" speaker was pointed out to me by Phil LeSourd of the Dept. of Anthro, at Indiana. This was in 1977, when he and I were roommates. At first, I refused to believe that this "'is is" was a feature of my idiolect, since I had never heard myself use such ungrammatical syntax. When I use ungrammatical English, it's on purpose and I'm fully aware of it. However, after a couple of hours of having Phil point out each occurrence of my use of "is is," I was forced to admit that "'is is" *is* a feature of my idiolect. Until I'd read of other instances of "is is" posted here, I thought that I was the only "is is" speaker on the face of the earth. I exaggerate, of course. In truth, I'd never given it a second thought till it began to be discussed here. Hey, you think maybe I'm, like, the originator of this anomaly? ;-) -Wilson Gray > >> Obviously there can be weird new developments in language that need >> explanation, and obviously they may spread slowly at first, like an >> epidemic, and then appear everywhere. But I think that this >> phenomenon needs to better substantiated. > > jon, you have said that you'd never heard things -- well, that you > don't recall having heard things -- like plain-quotative BE ("She was, > 'I have to go now' ") or plain-reportative BE ("She was that she'd have > to go then"), so you don't believe they exist. i have said that i've > seen a fair number of examples of the first and that i believed i'd > heard some of the second. > > you seem to think that your recollections have priority over mine. i > find that insulting. you're telling me i'm making things up. i could > claim in response that you're listening with deaf ears. > > yes, we need data, but why should you dismiss my recollections out of > hand? what am i, chopped liver? > > i've tried to explain why i'm not leaping to scroll out dozens of > examples: i haven't been coding for these or specifically collecting > them and they can't be gotten in easy database searches, so we're > talking about a major investment of my time to find the examples. even > if i come across some more by accident, you won't accept them unless > there's a significant body of them. > > i'm pretty sure they're out there. so we should be encouraging > researchers to look for them. you seem to be saying that you don't > think they're out there and won't even credit my perceptions unless i > myself can supply a body of evidence, now. > > i agree that evidence is necessary. but i could ask *you* to show that > there are no examples in, say, two or three million words of > conversational spoken english. i'd be impressed by that. why don't > *you* get on the job? > > arnold > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Mar 26 23:56:15 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:56:15 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Policeman" In-Reply-To: <200503262310.j2QNAUdQ009422@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: policeman (OED 1801) 1791 _The Parliamentary register: or, history of the proceedings and debates of the House of Commons of Ireland_ X. 310 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) Has not the policeman been guilty of more insolence and outrage than ever the soldier was. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:03:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:03:36 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Leadership" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: leadership (OED 1821) 1765 Temple, Richard Grenville-Temple, Earl. The principles of the late changes impartially examined: in a letter from a Son of Candor to the Public Advertiser. The second edition. 57 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online) The Ministers, 'tis very confidently said, have not yet been able to settle the important point of the leadership among themselves. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 00:28:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> Maybe this is just an error for "prophesy"? >>> >>> I don't see the adjective "principle" in the dictionaries at a >>> glance, >>> although it is used freely by otherwise respectable writers. I don't >>> see >>> the popular word "wierd" (>1 million hits) either. >> Not quite the same, since the former involves a morphological >> variant, the latter two only orthographic ones. > > Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:44:50 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:44:50 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps > >> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) > >Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >the sense of "sweet-talk" v. In hiphop usage, at least, it can range from "sweet-talk" to "have a serious conversation". See the Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive: http://google.com/search?q=site:ohhla.com+conversate|conversatin|conversating|conversated I see there's a fair bit of conversatin' about "conversate" in the archive. --Ben Zimmer From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 00:48:46 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:48:46 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Quotative [to be] + "that" Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: Isabelle K Buchstaller > Date: March 26, 2005 1:31:01 AM PST > To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" > > Here are some examples with 'was' from my corpus. > They are all direct speech > sorry I can't furnish you with any indirect ones (that + deictic shift) > cause I have only collected direct quotes. > > But I can tell you that people tend to have funny reactions to unframed > quotes (by unframed I mean everything without a canonical verb of > quotation > or at least a new quotative). > This means examples such as the "was" ones as well as purely unframed > ones such as > > and he "aaargggg" > or just and "bang" > > or something. > About 20% of my British and American quotes do not contain any verb of > quotation (again this includes the be ones as well as others as > indicated > above) and people just seem not to hear them. > When I play them, many people claim they do not exist - so your > discussion > partner is in good company ;) > X: that;s right yeah > Y: and then you went and it was you turn to go out > X: yeah > Y: as soon as you got out of there it was ?goop you?ve seen the > pictures > and Jacky used to go ?ohhh ?? I I went there? > X: ohhh ay the Geddy was something > I used to go up in the what did you call it up in the ehhh fire exit > > > B: oh no that when I used to go like > I used to go clubbing and that in the town > I used to tell me ma like I was ?I just go in the town anon > and be ah I?ll stay with me friends? > but I never used to like get to us like > A: [ha ha ha > B: [she never knew > > > A: I mean at work at work twenty-five your old woman talks about you > behind your back > B: and you?d think that like like[you know a bit worried > A: [are you worried > B: caught up in the railway [((indistinct)) > A: [I mean even if she had anything to say > it was ?why can?t you say? it was ?ehm to me face? > B: exactly > A: and I started saying it to somebody else > I mean you always find out > > > A: cause she?s told Carol house for not loose her > she?s ?ohh yeah > me mom and dad?s going away > and don?t leave the house empty? > B: tshhh > A: but you know I was ?what are you saying > Neil is not letting you go? > cause we went ehhh nahh belly dancing > when it was her 21st > no sorry it was his dau- his sister?s engageme > > > A: street around the corner > like ?ehhh > at least I have resolved some of the transport service of > Newcastle? voice > wehhh > and they give us that actually in a snack > ?obs- it?s very import that you win those? > I was ?for the petty PTE? you know what I mean > so I got up > I went to London ehhh > and XX tell us it was the PTE social club > [and I was ?come here straight away? > B: [was there all the employees was there? > and all the workers > A: and I went there > B: her gran?s 77th birthday > > > A: yeah > and it?s all a pain in the ass > at least half of these fellows are all ?piahh that?s crap? > so I was ?pffhhhh I?ve had it? > your stomach turned upside > B: ha > A: I couldn?t believe it > it was really bad > > > B: and then > no that?s they ch- again and then the there was a > she was ?oh they were going Northumbrian Arms? > and she ment like Newcastle Arms > when then there it was one eighty > > > but eh he ?must tell you I had a really bad night? > cause he said ?oh thanks partner > you?re the first person that has given us a tip? > I was ?.hhhhhhh yeahh? > he was telling me and it was half past twelve > so > B: I ammm last time I were in class > from town to here > > > > I said ?just around the corner ? > he gans ?haw I?ll take you around? > I was ?oh I haven?t got any more money? > B: and you want me ??? > A: and even ?I I?ll knock the meter off for you? > we gans ?thanks? ehhh > went out on Saturday got out the same taxi driver > B: and it was the same again > > > I can say ?don?t ask me for anything? > B: but don?t look careful > A: ?you are not good enough? > she was ?care keeps stating this? > I goes ?I wouldn?t be saying it if I was care-free? ha stupid > B: I?m a completely different person From langwidge at EROLS.COM Sun Mar 27 00:42:45 2005 From: langwidge at EROLS.COM (crg) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:42:45 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:07:16 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:07:16 EST Subject: Oxymoron Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer writes > The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general sense of > 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive suggests > that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. I learned the word "oxymoron" during the 1965-66 school year from my freshman American Literature professor. I cannot recall his exact words so I cannot say whether he defined it as a deliberate rhetorical figure (is that what you meant?) or simply as "a contradiction in terms", but ever since then I have used it with the latter meaning. The next time I recall using "oxymoron" was in a statistics class in the early 1970's, when the instructor used the term "normal deviates" (yes, that is a technical term in statistics) and paused to comment on its being a contradiction, as was "cells multiply by dividing". The class contributed a few more, including "Catholic parochial school." Here's a cross-check. The American Lit professor was Frederick Reeve, who sometime before 1965 worked on Webster's New World Dictionary. You might check an early edition of WNWD (I have a copy but I can't find it at the moment) and see how it defines "oxymoron". OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was used in one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science Fiction sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson prides himself (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated that punch line, or at least thought he did. However, that does not rule out Dorothy Parker having originated it independently at an earlier date. MAD magazine circa 1960 had as the motto of unreconstructed Confederates "If at first you don't secede, try try again". Which reminds me, my father was fond of the word "unreconstructed" meaning "reactionary", "antediluvian" etc, and I picked it up from him (as in the previous sentence) Is this a common usage? - James A. Landau From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:11:23 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:11:23 EST Subject: Antedating of "Idealism" Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 08:13:44 -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > idealism (OED 1796) > > 1773 Denis Diderot _An Essay on Blindness_ 50 (Eighteenth Century > Collections Online) Idealism deserves very well to be reported to him; > and this hypothesis is as a double incentive for him, his singularity, and > much more the difficulty of refuting its principles, they being precisely > the same as those of Berkeley. Is 1773 the date of an English translation? I don't believe Diderot ever wrote in English. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 01:27:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:27:57 -0800 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Q. Can it be that "prophesy" and "prophesize / prophecize" are synonyms as close as "gorse" and "furze"? A. Perhaps - but "gorse" and "furze" remain more interesting because they derive from entirely different etyma. JL Fred Shapiro wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesse Sheidlower has pointed out that "prophecize" is in OED (I hadn't looked under that spelling). Sorry for the error. Now I've joined David Shulman, who frequently proclaimed that he had gotten "snowman" into the dictionaries despite the fact that it had long been in many dictionaries. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sun Mar 27 01:34:52 2005 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:34:52 EST Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: > For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA > their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for > The Kingston Trio many years ago. > > Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship > Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of > which shared the same tune. > > The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never > heard the song. Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary school days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio version "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the same tune! Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit Authority" in 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated Railway. The name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" (generally known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside Boston joined in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system became known as the MTA. (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro VT: The Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes As recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. plummeted [sick] to popularity nation-wide." The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late 1970's there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig up the reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been forgotten. There was also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton Fadiman in "Fantasia Mathematica") Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the MTA song: someone told me that the original version read Fight the fare increase Vote for Walter J. O'Brien and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a Socialist." One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs Fight the fare increase Vote for George O'Brien which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so what party did he belong to? - James A. Landau From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Mar 27 01:37:29 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:37:29 -0600 Subject: terms for words Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 1:30 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: terms for words > How long has "Nabisco" been around? Trademarked 1901. From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 01:45:11 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:45:11 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <60f75ba37147dc6b8529b9d7da298aad@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 4:48 PM, I wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Isabelle K Buchstaller >> Date: March 26, 2005 1:31:01 AM PST >> To: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >> Subject: Re: Quotative [to be] + "that" >> >> Here are some examples with 'was' from my corpus. >> They are all direct speech... to make this all more interesting: there's a real possibility that the plain-"be" examples were the earliest, and that nobody noticed them until they got expanded with "like", "all", etc. arnold From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 02:23:34 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:23:34 -0800 Subject: Quotative [to be] + "that" In-Reply-To: <1a94d21a4b6fe1901dee40f26f0f5390@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:15 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > FWIW, the fact that I'm an "is is" speaker was pointed out to me by > Phil LeSourd of the Dept. of Anthro, at Indiana. This was in 1977, when > he and I were roommates. At first, I refused to believe that this "'is > is" was a feature of my idiolect, since I had never heard myself use > such ungrammatical syntax. When I use ungrammatical English, it's on > purpose and I'm fully aware of it. However, after a couple of hours of > having Phil point out each occurrence of my use of "is is," I was > forced to admit that "'is is" *is* a feature of my idiolect. Until I'd > read of other instances of "is is" posted here, I thought that I was > the only "is is" speaker on the face of the earth. I exaggerate, of > course. In truth, I'd never given it a second thought till it began to > be discussed here. > > Hey, you think maybe I'm, like, the originator of this anomaly? ;-) not particularly likely. though it's hard to trace it back before the 70s -- almost surely because people took it to be a disfluency (as most people do today), so no one noticed it or recorded it. lots of points to phil lesourd for picking up on it. meanwhile, as i said before, i keep finding new types of examples, of sorts i was pretty sure didn't exist. a few weeks ago... there's the "That's X is Y" (Ross-Hagebaum 2004) construction, as in That's what makes the movie so powerful is that... (until a few years ago, i didn't credit *these*, but they're real). these now have, for some speakers, an extra "is": That's what makes the movie so powerful is is that... wonderful, isn't it? i have more. arnold From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sun Mar 27 03:03:40 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 21:03:40 -0600 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <200503270134.j2R1YvbQ004256@mx1.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: James A. Landau wrote, of "The MTA": > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so > what party did he belong to? I can't answer that question, but I find that the version I have (by the Kingston Trio, but a later recording) is Fight the fare increase Vote for (pause) whoever the hell is running Jim Parish From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 03:14:06 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:14:06 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron In-Reply-To: <1df.386ac88d.2f776144@aol.com> Message-ID: yOn Sat, 26 Mar 2005, James A. Landau wrote: > OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was used > in one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science > Fiction sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson > prides himself (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated > that punch line, or at least thought he did. However, that does not > rule out Dorothy Parker having originated it independently at an earlier > date. This was, of course, Dorothy Parker's greatest witticism. One would hope Spider Robinson was literate enough to know that. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 03:42:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 22:42:06 -0500 Subject: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Prophesize" Not in the Dictionaries > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:28:11 -0500, Wilson Gray > wrote: > >> On Mar 26, 2005, at 3:37 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> Not the best analogies, I agree. Perhaps >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >> Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used >> in >> the sense of "sweet-talk" v. > > In hiphop usage, at least, it can range from "sweet-talk" to "have a > serious conversation". See the Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive: > > http://google.com/search?q=site: > ohhla.com+conversate|conversatin|conversating|conversated > > I see there's a fair bit of conversatin' about "conversate" in the > archive. > > --Ben Zimmer > Unfortunately, I've even suffered through the horror of hearing people use "conversate" as though it was an ordinary word meaning merely "carry on a conversation," in use since at least 1066. One unhip kid even told me about keeping a dictionary with him at all times so that he could conversate with anyone, even with someone who used big words that he didn't already know. You know, it's a real bring-down to talk with people who really believe that so little effort is necessary to take life by the horns. You don't know whether to laugh or cry. -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 03:53:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:53:44 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: The whole story is told here : http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jdreed/t/charlie.html Bess Lomax Hawes is the younger sister of the late Alan Lomax and daughter of the pioneer folksong collector John A. Lomax. She was one of the Almanac Singers (folkies of 1940-41), a group including, among others, Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie. JL "James A. Landau" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "James A. Landau" Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, Page Stephens wrote: > For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the MTA > their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major hit for > The Kingston Trio many years ago. > > Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were The Ship > Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 both of > which shared the same tune. > > The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have never > heard the song. Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary school days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio version "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the same tune! Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit Authority" in 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated Railway. The name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" (generally known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside Boston joined in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system became known as the MTA. (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro VT: The Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes As recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. plummeted [sick] to popularity nation-wide." The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late 1970's there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig up the reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been forgotten. There was also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton Fadiman in "Fantasia Mathematica") Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the MTA song: someone told me that the original version read Fight the fare increase Vote for Walter J. O'Brien and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a Socialist." One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs Fight the fare increase Vote for George O'Brien which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans better. Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien who ran for office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if so what party did he belong to? - James A. Landau --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 04:14:05 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:14:05 -0500 Subject: Oxymoron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:07 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: Oxymoron > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:37:45 -0500, > Benjamin Zimmer writes > >> The latest OED draft entry has cites back to 1902 for the general >> sense of >> 'a contradiction in terms', but a quick look at Newspaperarchive >> suggests >> that this sense wasn't popularized until the mid-'70s. > > I learned the word "oxymoron" during the 1965-66 school year from my > freshman > American Literature professor. I cannot recall his exact words so I > cannot > say whether he defined it as a deliberate rhetorical figure (is that > what you > meant?) or simply as "a contradiction in terms", but ever since then > I have > used it with the latter meaning. The next time I recall using > "oxymoron" was in > a statistics class in the early 1970's, when the instructor used the > term > "normal deviates" (yes, that is a technical term in statistics) and > paused to > comment on its being a contradiction, as was "cells multiply by > dividing". The > class contributed a few more, including > "Catholic parochial school" I don't get it. Where's the contradiction? Or should the phrase read "catholic parochial schools"? -Wilson Gray > Here's a cross-check. The American Lit professor was Frederick Reeve, > who > sometime before 1965 worked on Webster's New World Dictionary. You > might check > an early edition of WNWD (I have a copy but I can't find it at the > moment) and > see how it defines "oxymoron". > > OT: "you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" was > used in > one of Spider Robinson's "Callahan's Bar" stories in Analog Science > Fiction > sometime in the late 1970's or possibly early 1980's. Robinson prides > himself > (with good cause) as a punster, so he probably originated that punch > line, or at > least thought he did. However, that does not rule out Dorothy Parker > having > originated it independently at an earlier date. > > MAD magazine circa 1960 had as the motto of unreconstructed > Confederates "If > at first you don't secede, try try again". Which reminds me, my > father was > fond of the word "unreconstructed" meaning "reactionary", > "antediluvian" etc, > and I picked it up from him (as in the previous sentence) Is this a > common > usage? > > - James A. Landau > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 04:29:31 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 23:29:31 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, > Page Stephens wrote: > >> For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the >> MTA >> their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major >> hit for >> The Kingston Trio many years ago. >> >> Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were >> The Ship >> Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 >> both of >> which shared the same tune. >> >> The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have >> never >> heard the song. > > Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary > school > days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio > version > "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the > same tune! > > Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit > Authority" in > 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated > Railway. The > name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" > (generally > known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside > Boston joined > in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system > became > known as the MTA. > > (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro > VT: The > Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) > > As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) > "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes > As > recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. > plummeted [sick] > to popularity nation-wide." > > The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late > 1970's > there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig > up the > reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been > forgotten. There was > also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch > (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton > Fadiman in "Fantasia > Mathematica") > "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray > Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the > MTA > song: someone told me that the original version read > Fight the fare increase > Vote for Walter J. O'Brien > and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a > Socialist." > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans > better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien > who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if > so > what party did he belong to? > > - James A. Landau > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 05:13:19 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:13:19 -0500 Subject: "toeing the line" revisited Message-ID: We've established, at least to my satisfaction, that "towing the line" is an eggcorn. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm the observation in the commentary track to "The Gathering Storm" DVD (the 2002 HBO production with Albert Finney as Churchill and Vanessa Redgrave as Clemmie--quite good, I thought) that "toeing the line" originates (not from athletic endeavors but) from the red line painted on the floor of the House of Commons, traditionally two rapier-widths thick, that separates the party in power from the minority party, to prevent bloodshed on the floor? Sounds like it could be plausible, and also like it could be an etymythology, and I have no way of knowing which. Larry From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Sun Mar 27 05:51:29 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 00:51:29 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're a bit older than I am, but I'm still old enough to remember "Shine." I was in the eighth grade, I believe, when the song was at the height of its local (St. Louis) popularity. it was certainly one of my favorite songs. But, for some reason, hearing "Shine" seemed to annoy the hell out of my parents and the fact that I thought the song was so great that I went around the house singing it really pissed them off. Finally, they explained it to me. The song, as you suspect, is actually a list of older (That's why I wasn't familiar with them, though my elders were) racist stereotypes about black people: the curly hair, the pearly teeth, the ready smile, dressing in the latest zoot-suitly style, etc., tarted up to make them sound innocuous. And, of course, "shine" itself is right up there with coon, etc. as a derogatory term. So, your intuition is squarely on the mark. Hey, now, Just because my hair is curly Just because my teeth are pearly Just because I always wear a smile Just because I dress in the latest style ... [Big finish] That is why they call me "shine"! Not bad, in my opinion, considering that I haven't heard this song since 1949! I have no idea how Frankie Laine came to sing this song or how it came to be written and I'd just as soon leave it at that. The only one of Laine's songs that I've never had any use for is "Mule Train." Do you remember - well, it's probably on the CD - his "We'll Be Together Again"? The girl who taught me why heartbreak is called heartBREAK rather than something else said to me, "Don't worry. We'll be together again," as she tore my heart out my chest and stomped that sucker flat. Anyway, her saying that engraved the song into my heart. So, I'm willing to forgive "Shine" in exchange for "We'll Be Together Again." -Wilson Gray On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 27 08:00:56 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 03:00:56 -0500 Subject: One's goat (which can be gotten) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Review of the handy on-line newspapers shows that the "goat" in "get one's goat" was not strictly confined to this fixed expression, which is probably favored by alliteration. One's "goat" is apparently more or less one's composure or self-confidence. My current speculation is that the original reference was to a (metaphoric) mascot (in the old sense of good-luck charm, the opposite of jinx or hoodoo). Many sports teams apparently had goat mascots. The story about race-horses having goat companions is apparently true. However, I do not find any single instance of "getting/stealing/losing [a horse's] goat"; it's always a human being's goat. I speculate that the race-horse's goat was a mascot kept out of superstition (whether or not the horse became attached to it), and I doubt that the specifically horse-related goat was the etymological ancestor of this metaphor ... merely a cousin. Here are the instances which I found in the first few years from N'archive, with my glosses or interpretations: ---------- "His goat and most of his money gone" (Dispirited, with most of his money gone [?]) [1907] "Tigers have lost their 'goat'" (Tigers have lost their confidence [?] [baseball]) [1907] "Get my goat" (Bother or deter me) [1908] "Get my goat" (Amuse me, make me laugh [jokes]) [1908] "This has got my goat" (This has me mystified) [1908] "They've got my goat" (I'm down and out, broke) [1908] "Got his goat" (Got the better of him) [1908] "Had got his goat" (Had intimidated him) [1908] "Got his 'goat'" (Annoyed him [?]) [1908] "Had his goat" (Had him rattled) [1908] "Gets my goat" (Baffles me [where he went]) [1909] "Get my goat" (Annoy me) [1909] "Getting his goat" (Getting the better of him) [1909] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1910] "Got my goat" (Got me baffled [how to cook spinach]) [1910] "What got his goat" (What he couldn't figure out [what to tell his wife]) [1910] "To get his goat" (To make him angry) [1910] "He lost his 'goat'" (He lost his composure [of a jockey]) [1910] "Had his goat" (Had him intimidated) [1910] "Get his goat" (Annoy him) [1910] "Get his goat" (Get him upset) [1910] "Captures our goat" (Trounces us [baseball]) [1910] "My goat is not for sale" (They can't bother me) [1911] "Drops his goat" (Loses his nerve [high-iron worker]) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Amazes or favorably impresses me [a fine theater]) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Angers me) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Astonishes me or seems ironic to me [foibles]) [1911] "You ain't got my goat" (You haven't intimidated me) [1911] "Has really got my goat" (Really has me stumped [unanswerable question]) [1911] "Has got my goat" (Has angered or annoyed me) [1911] "What got my goat" (What gave me particular difficulty) [1911] "He's got my goat" (He has me hoodooed) [1911] "It's about got my goat today" (I'm suffering from the heat today) [1911] "Got my goat completely" (Angered me) [1911] "You've got my goat" (I surrender; you've converted me [evangelical meeting]) [1911] "The life I lead has got my goat" (My life has got me down [?]) [1911] "Get his goat" (Put one over on him [practical joke]) [1911] "Get his goat" (Rattle him [?] [heckling the pitcher]) [1911] "Had his goat" (Had him scared) [1911] "Gaol has got his goat" (Prison has broken his spirit) [1911] "They had corraled his Goat" (They had taken his self-respect [?]) [1911] "He had 'lost his goat'" (He had lost his nerve) [1911] "Raving and roaring for his goat" (Shouting in order to rattle him [baseball fans]) [1911] "Nearly 'got his goat'" (Nearly talked him into something) [1911] "Gets my goat" (Annoys me) [1912] "Can get my goat" (Can affect me [?] [baseball fans' heckling]) [1912] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1912] "Got my goat" (Annoyed me) [1912] "Has quite got my goat" (Has got me baffled [how to get coal]) [1912] "Got my goat" (Angered me) [1912] "Got his goat" (Got the better of him [?] [baseball pitcher]) [1912] "Getting his 'goat'" (Getting him rattled) [1912] "A man that has been robbed of his goat" (A man who lacks confidence [?]) [1912] "Got his goat" (Annoyed him) [1912] "It got his 'goat'" (It got the best of him [wine]) [1912] "Got his goat .... lost his goat" (Made him angry .... got angry) [1912] "Get his 'goat'" (Unsettle him [by heckling]) [1912] ---------- To lose one's goat was considered tantamount to failure (in athletics, etc.). "Goat" = "anger" is not apt; rather "goat" = "temper" (opposite of anger, approximately) is about right: "lose one's goat" approximates "lose one's temper" in some cases. -- Doug Wilson From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Mar 27 08:32:54 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:32:54 +0100 Subject: "toeing the line" revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > We've established, at least to my satisfaction, that "towing the line" > is an eggcorn. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm the observation in the > commentary track to "The Gathering Storm" DVD (the 2002 HBO production > with Albert Finney as Churchill and Vanessa Redgrave as Clemmie--quite > good, I thought) that "toeing the line" originates (not from athletic > endeavors but) from the red line painted on the floor of the House of > Commons, traditionally two rapier-widths thick, that separates the > party in power from the minority party, to prevent bloodshed on the > floor? Sounds like it could be plausible, and also like it could be an > etymythology, and I have no way of knowing which. This is often claimed, not least by the guides who take visitors around the Houses of Parliament (enough in itself, from experience, to make one query the expression). So far as I'm aware, there's no evidence supporting their belief. The point about the lines was that honorable members were not supposed to cross them. There's nothing in that rule that would very obviously lead to "toeing the line". The early evidence surely points to athletics and pugilism, possibly derived from sailors required to toe the line when mustering, the lines being the joints in the deck planks. Other forms of the early nineteenth century were "toe the mark", "toe the scratch" (definitely from prize fighting), "toe the crack" and "toe the trig" (trig being an old term for a boundary or centre line in various sports). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Mar 27 18:31:37 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:31:37 -0800 Subject: two word choices Message-ID: two word choices that caught my eye recently. the first is certainly the word the writer had in mind, and it's comprehensible in context, but the usage is new to me. the second is a malaprop, i think, though at the moment i can't call up the right word for the context; malaprops tend to do that to you. 1. from Brendan Lemon's "Letter from the Editor" in the April 2005 issue of Out magazine, p. 23: I wear a basic shirt-and-jeans combo every day and probably couldn't tell you where the T-shirt or trousers came from. My hookups are a different matter: I know the precise provenance of my wristwear or running shoes and why I'm rockin' them this week but not last. [this is "hookups" 'wardrobe accessories', perhaps an extension from "hookups" 'electronic add-ons, accessories', i.e. things you hook up to the basic system. googling supplies various other uses of the noun "hookups" or "hook-ups", including a use for 'branded clothing or accessories', i.e. such items with a team or company name or logo, which connects the item (hooks it up) to the organization. all these uses involve plurals with category ('kind' or 'type') interpretations, like "clothes" 'clothing'. a singular use -- "I wear a different hookup every day" -- strikes me as interpretable but odd] 2. from Erik Reece's "Death of a Mountain" in the April 2005 issue of Harper's Magazine, p. 59: The investigators wanted to cite Martin County Coal for eight violations, including willful negligence. Thompson and Dave Lauriski, MSHA's new assistant secretary, whittled that down to two menial charges. [this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with "venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, technical-sounding substitute for it?] arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Mar 27 20:32:33 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 15:32:33 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:31 AM -0800 3/27/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >2. from Erik Reece's "Death of a Mountain" in the April 2005 issue of >Harper's Magazine, p. 59: > >The investigators wanted to cite Martin County Coal for eight >violations, including willful negligence. Thompson and Dave Lauriski, >MSHA's new assistant secretary, whittled that down to two menial >charges. > >[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >technical-sounding substitute for it?] > FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along different sorts of scales) L From douglas at NB.NET Sun Mar 27 21:14:21 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:14:21 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >different sorts of scales) Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. -- Doug Wilson From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sun Mar 27 21:29:43 2005 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:29:43 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050327160546.02fe9c90@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: >>>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >>FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >>labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >>different sorts of scales) > >Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", >thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an >exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. > >-- Doug Wilson ~~~~~~~~ "Minimal" & "measly" come to mind, though "measly" probably not quite the right tone. AM From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Mar 27 21:55:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:55:25 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the subway for a long time afterwards. It's still weird and great, to the best of my recollection. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 26, 2005, at 8:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "James A. Landau" > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In a message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2005 10:34:33 -0500, > Page Stephens wrote: > >> For your information if you ask most of the people I know about the >> MTA >> their first reference is probably to The MTA Song which was a major >> hit for >> The Kingston Trio many years ago. >> >> Almost none of them have ever heard of its antecedents which were >> The Ship >> Which Never Returned and even more famous The Wreck of the Old 97 >> both of >> which shared the same tune. >> >> The reference in the MTA song is Boston for those of you who have >> never >> heard the song. > > Learn something new every day! I knew the MTA song from elementary > school > days, and I knew "The Wreck of the Old 97" (in the Chad Mitchell Trio > version > "Superskier") from the same period and I never realized they had the > same tune! > > Boston's mass transit system became the "Metropolitan Transit > Authority" in > 1947, when the city took over the privately-owned Boston Elevated > Railway. The > name was changed to "Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority" > (generally > known as "the T") ) in 1964 when a number of communities outside > Boston joined > in. I don't know when New York City's mass-transit transit system > became > known as the MTA. > > (Reference: Brian J. Cudahy "Change at Park Street Under" Brattleboro > VT: The > Stephen Greene Press, 1972, ISBN 0-8289-0173-2.) > > As for the song "MTA", Cudahy says (page 53) > "Composed [sic] and written by Jacqueline Steiner and Bess Hawes > As > recorded for Capitol Records by the Kingston Trio, THE M.T.A. > plummeted [sick] > to popularity nation-wide." > > The MBTA inspired at least two other literary works. In the late > 1970's > there was a musical written and performed about the MBTA---I can dig > up the > reference if anyone asks. It seems to have flopped and been > forgotten. There was > also a science fiction story "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch > (Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950, reprinted by Clifton > Fadiman in "Fantasia > Mathematica") > "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray > Something that I have never been able to confirm or refute about the > MTA > song: someone told me that the original version read > Fight the fare increase > Vote for Walter J. O'Brien > and "had to be recalled when it was discovered that O'Brien was a > Socialist." > One big trouble with this story is that the Kingston Trio version runs > Fight the fare increase > Vote for George O'Brien > which may or may not be politically acceptable but at least scans > better. > Does anyone know if there was a politician at the time named O'Brien > who ran for > office on a platform which included fighting the fare increase, and if > so > what party did he belong to? > > - James A. Landau > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 28 00:48:50 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 18:48:50 -0600 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: Great tesseract story: "And He Built a Crooked House" by Robert Heinlein. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 10:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 01:00:05 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:00:05 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Will look that one up, Bill. JL "Mullins, Bill" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Mullins, Bill" Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great tesseract story: "And He Built a Crooked House" by Robert = Heinlein. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Sat 3/26/2005 10:29 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames =20 "A Subway Named Mobius" by A. J. Deutsch. Astounding Science Fiction, December 1950. I remember this story. I was a high-school student at the time. I'd never heard of Moebius and his famous strip till I read that story. Furthermore, reading ASF introduced me to the Klein bottle, to the tesseract, and to M.I.T. To paraphrse what Rick James said about cocaine, "ASF was a hell of a mag." -Wilson Gray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Mar 28 02:25:08 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:25:08 -0500 Subject: eighty-six (86) not an antedating Message-ID: ...but early use to mean something other than being out of an item on a restaurant menu. Proquest,_Washington Post_ 5 April, 1942. Pg. TC1, col. 5 >>"Curious." Chandos pulled the note toward him and glanced through it. "T.K. will be 86.' Is it code?" "No. IT's soda-popper jargon." "Meaning?" "Tell him,Chick." "Eighty-six means out," I said. "'The tuna-fish salad is 86' means there isn't any more. And if you say a guy is 86, that means he's fired or all washed up or something like that." << Sam Clements From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 02:45:50 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:45:50 -0500 Subject: "Peace Sign" (1900); Chocolate Sprinkles & Broadway Flip Sundae Message-ID: PEACE SIGN ProQuest, then AOL have been down for a while. I guess I can't send the photo of this to ADS-L, but it's available by request. An early version of the "peace sign"--probably meaning, as stated before, "let's go swimming"--is in FRECKLES AND TAN by R. C. Bowman, published by Alfred Bartlett, Boston, 1900. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHOCOLATE SPRINKLES & BROADWAY FLIP WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--CUNY Graduate Center, 34th Street and Fifth Avenue. There was a cheese tasting of NYS & Vermont cheeses. Liz from Murray's Cheese on Bleecker was there, as was Margo True, editor of SAVEUR. (The April 2005 SAVEUR is about Cheese.) WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SUNDAY?--Pete's Place (not Pete's Tavern!), 256 Third Avenue and East 21st Street. The perfect place to watch NCAA basketball games that NEVER END! http://www.addyourown.com/restaurant.php?rest_id=426&cat_id=1&city_id=1 Watch TV at the counter if you want to chat with the owners. Lots of specials will really fill you up if you need a square meal inexpensively. --Gramercy Resident On the wall of Pete's Place is the menu of a former store, the Gramercy Sweet Shop. I was told it's from the "1920s," and the presence of "chop suey sundae" and the prices seem to indicate that: BANAN ROYAL...30 BANANA SPLIT...25 ANOLA (?--ed.) SUNDAE...20 NABISCO SUNDAE...20 CHOCOLATE SPRINKLE SUNDAE...20 CHOP SUEY SUNDAE...20 PINEAPPLE TEMPTATION...20 BROADWAY FLIP...20 ICE CREAM SODAS ALL FLAVORS...10 FRENCH ICE CREAM SODA...15 What is a "Broadway flip"? See the article below, but the prices there are 40 cents a serving! (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Real Ice Cream Parlor Is Still Thriving in City By CRAIG CLAIBORNE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 21, 1965. p. 24 (1 page) : "THose doors" are the entrance to the Becker and Citarella confectionery at 548 West 207th Street. To pass beneath them is to be transported to an ice cream parlor from the ealy years of the century. (...) In the room to the rear are marble-topped tables and a notice on the wall of the frozen specialties of the house. These include Broadway Flip, Lover's Delight, Pineapple Temptation and Marshmallow Sundae, and the cost is about 40 cents a serving. "As far as I know," Chris Becker, one of the owners, said, "this ice cream parlor has been here since the building was built and that was in 1913 or 1914. I first came here when it was called Broger and Lewessen. They owned a lot of ice cream parlors in Manhattan." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 6 February 1923, Hammond (Ind.) Times, pg. 7, col. 8 ad: Savery's Candy Shoppe BROADWAY FLIP SUNDAE 20c ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MISC. WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT? I left out these other restaurants of recent visits: AMMA, East 51 Street and Second Avenue--Overpriced Indian. MELTEMI, First Avenue and East 52 Street--Excellent Greek seafoood place. Draws a crowd from the U.N. MOLYVOS, Seventh Avenue and West 55 Street--Good Greek place, but I enjoyed Meltemi much more. I jhad come after another 10-hour parking ticket waste of my life and just missed the pre-theatre special (to 7:30 p.m.), which is what to get here. VON SINGH'S, Eighth Street near 6th Avenue LASSI, Greenwich Street near 6th Avenue--These are two new hole-in-the-wall Indian places. I can't say I'm crazy about either of them, but Lassi (northern Indian) seems a bit more authentic and Indian. Von Singh's seems like a California veggie place, with Americanized names for the food. APPLE RESTAURANT, Waverly Place near Broadway--Probably good for its bar. No reason to eat here with Gobo around. From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 28 03:24:42 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:24:42 -0500 Subject: two word choices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MW 11 gives 2b. lacking interest or dignity (a ~ task). With the unfortunate loss of servants, at least for my crowd (I can't even afford illegal aliens, grey or brown), most of us have little context for menial referring to such individuals. The word remains, but only the connotative side. I would suggest that this is not a blend, but rather a reinterpretation. Menial = insignificant, not worthy of attention, like servants. JCS sagehen writes: >>>>[this is "menial" 'inconsequential, petty', not anything to do with >>>>servants or servitude. perhaps a blending of "minor" with >>>>"venial"/"trivial"? or just a malaprop for "minor" -- a fancy, >>>>technical-sounding substitute for it?] >>>FWIW, my first thought was that it was a blend with "venial" (menial >>>labor/venial sins, both relating to relative insignificance but along >>>different sorts of scales) >> >>Hard to know for sure. My guess is that the writer meant to write "menial", >>thinking that it was an appropriate adjective ... possibly taking it as an >>exact equivalent of "lowly" in all senses or something like that. >> >>-- Doug Wilson > ~~~~~~~~ > "Minimal" & "measly" come to mind, though "measly" probably not quite the > right tone. > AM > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 04:55:50 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:55:50 -0500 Subject: "Do-rag" - no mention of ADS antedatings Message-ID: William Safire returned to "do-rag" on Sunday. There is no mention of the discussion and antedatings here. So it remains for his readers, I guess, a term that was coined in The New York Times. And so it goes, as it has been for twelve years. No corrections. No apologies. What a son of a bitch! (NEW YORK TIMES) DOING THE DO-RAG RAG My recent definition of do-rag as ''a scrap of material worn atop a hairdo'' has been challenged. A dozen or so readers are certain it should be spelled dew-rag, derived from the headband worn to absorb the perspiration, similar to dew, on the brow of workers in the sun. On the other hand, Anna Grimes Noser of Nashville holds that ''a do-rag is whatever is available to pull your hair out of your face so you can set about cleaning the house, garage, gutters or other messy tasks. To indirectly criticize and simultaneously empathize with someone, many Southerners will quip, 'Bless his heart.' Mr. Safire, bless your heart.'' Michael Parker of the Corcoran Library in Washington, writing ''as a black man growing up in the 50's and 60's,'' observes that ''a do-rag was usually worn by men who had their hair 'processed.' The do-rag kept the 'process' neat until it was time to step out. We usually made fun of men with do-rags. Today I keep my mouth shut!'' Other Lexicographic Irregulars lent support to my speculation about the hyphenated noun's origin. ''Originally, a do-rag protected one's conk (straightened hair) while one slept,'' noted Rebecca Maksel. And at Washington's Gridiron Dinner a couple of weeks ago, as I stood amid a bunch of other moving shakers in white tie and tails, Colin Powell -- proud product, like me, of the Bronx -- agreed that do-rag did derive from ''doing'' one's hair. He even recalled that ''in the days before pantyhose,'' a variation of the do-rag was a stocking pulled down over the head. Ain't etymology grand? From stalker at MSU.EDU Mon Mar 28 05:02:14 2005 From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:02:14 -0500 Subject: hearing/spelling confusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I?m sorry Mr. Shoe, but there is no maturity or maternity benefit for males in MT. We are not sure just what a materity benefit is, but we are checking on it and will get back to you. However, we will remind you that there are lovely mountain views, particularly around Missoula, but don?t tell anybody. We are not quite sure what your respondent meant by ?do time.? Generally this means that the person has had a disagreement with local law enforcement, but sometimes it applies to pregnant women, as Ms Flanigan in Ohio suggests. Our friends in Michigan tell us that male retirees often get Honey Do lists from their wives. We are pretty sure that these are not lists of melons. It is quite confusing. We have heard that you are a person who knows about language, that you worked for a school back east, in St Louis or Biloxi or Washington or someplace like that. Awaiting your reply on what ?do? means. Yours, Missoula Jim Roger Shuy writes: > on 3/23/05 10:44 AM, Beverly Flanigan at flanigan at OHIO.EDU wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan >> Subject: Fwd: Re: hearing/spelling confusion >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --> - >> >> Following on "pulling it taught," a note about local affairs: >> >>> >>> -Good morning, Just so you know I'm in the process. I >>> e-mailed Kathy Kerr who is in charge of the community >>> page in the Messenger and asked that we create a >>> neighborhood column. She said the decission comes >>> from Monica Nieport, who is on materity leave and just >>> had her baby on Saturday. So I will follow up on >>> this in do time. >>> Delia >> >> Do tell! >> > And this also makes me wonder if "materity leave" is anything like maturity > leave. My fond hope is that in my retirement I might get some possible > maturity benefits. > James C. Stalker Department of English Michigan State University From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 28 07:21:33 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 02:21:33 -0500 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: <200502081735.1cYGLp3bo3NZFpL0@mx-a065b05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi...long time listener, first time caller. What a splendid list, with a carnivorous email volume teeming with, for once, my verbal betters. I've seen some impassioned unsubscribe notices since I joined and have wondered why? As a strokee ("stroke survivor," "stroker," "brain attackee" - however "stroke victim" is d?class? and pass?), I've been pretty much become confined to a 2 by 2 butt-print in front of my Mac. Thus, online is my oyster. A good deal of it I find banal, but every once in a while, I'll stumble across a gem such as ADS. Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be credentialed? Any list that actually allows for the enlightened investigation of the word "fuck", without the attendant "thyself" (or, as dictated by the METALLICA RULZ, a barrage of juvenile epithets) is a cyber sandbox in which I'd like to play. I've tried to read the list awhile before posting to get the "lay of the LAN", but with such a high volume I find it difficult to understand what goes here and what doesn't. Some posts seem very scholarly, others casual, so I am guessing it is fairly ecumenical in that regard, nest ce pas? I look to be enlightened and have some shits 'n' grins. Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 28 09:39:17 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:39:17 -0500 Subject: eighty-six (86) not an antedating Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:25:08 -0500, Sam Clements wrote: >...but early use to mean something other than being out of an item on a >restaurant menu. > >Proquest,_Washington Post_ 5 April, 1942. Pg. TC1, col. 5 > >>>"Curious." Chandos pulled the note toward him and glanced through it. > "T.K. will be 86.' Is it code?" > "No. IT's soda-popper jargon." > "Meaning?" > "Tell him,Chick." > "Eighty-six means out," I said. "'The tuna-fish salad is 86' means >there isn't any more. And if you say a guy is 86, that means he's fired >or all washed up or something like that." << Here's another early cite... ----- New York Times, Dec 29, 1939, p. 13 The cabalistic mumbo jumbo of soda-fountain workers has always puzzled us, but we never found a fountain man with enough leisure time, or inclination, to discuss it. Last night, though, we were having a malted in the drug store in the Associated Press Building in Rockefeller Center and Mr. Joe Reno, who served us, let us in on some of the secrets. Now (Mr. Reno said) you take water, for example. If one customer wants water, you call "Eighty-one." If you want water for two customers, you call "Eighty-two." The system, however, stops at "Eighty-five." When a soda-stand worker calls "Eighty-six," it is a sign-off; the store is out of whatever you happen to ask for. ----- The "81" and "86" codes also appear in Bentley's "Linguistic Concoctions of the Soda Jerker" (_AmSp_, Feb. 1936), as well as the 1933 Walter Winchell column that Barry Popik discovered in Dec. 2001: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0112E&L=ads-l&P=R609&m=11562 This article has "81" for water but gives "87" for the "all out" code (casting some doubt on the "nix" rhyming-slang theory): ----- Los Angeles Times, Jan 9, 1938, p. J2 Have you ever heard the soda clerks shouting numbers to each other? Here are a few which we recently persuaded a nimble-fingered mixer to translate for us: "81" -- water for the customer. "61" -- cup of coffee. "87" -- we've run out of that item on the menu. "37" -- take special pains for this customer. "Watch the pump" -- the girl you're serving has pretty eyes. "Stretch it" -- give this man a big one; he looks hungry. "87 1/2" -- the girl in the corner has pretty legs. ----- (Bentley's 1936 _AmSp_ article has the "87 1/2" code as well.) --Ben Zimmer From bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 09:57:11 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:57:11 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A "personal" request was made for this. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) Meany; By Joseph C. Goulden. 504 pp. New York: Atheneum. $12.95. By WILSON C. McWILLIAMS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 22, 1972. p. BR2 (1 page): Contemporary feminists have insisted that the "personal is the political." So it is, as the classic political philosphers knew. And conversely, political life always depends on personality. Perhaps, in the abstract, George Meany would agree. J. Edgar's WLM Caper; Letty Cottin Pogrebin is a writer and an editor at Ms. Magazine who has so far received two pages from her FBI file. Letty Cottin Pogrebin. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1977. p. A17 (1 page) : The FBI never understood the feminist tenet that "the personal is political." The Emergence of Women From the Movement-Ridden '60's; Book World PERSONAL POLITICS: The Roots of Women's Liberation in the Civil Rights Movement and the New Left. By Sara Evans (Knopf. 274 pp. $10) Reviewed by Anne Laurent. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: May 22, 1979. p. C4 (1 page): Her book, "Personal Politics" after the women's liberation slogan "the personal is political," is an investigation into "the roots of women's liberation in the civil rights movement and the new left." (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) The Herald Saturday, July 16, 1977 Chicago, Illinois ...Yet Mor- and others in believe the PERSONAL IS POLITICAL and must beshared.....Reviewed by Nancy 1 Reese Subtitled PERSONAL Chronicle of a Robin Morgan's.. (Review of GOING TOO FAR by Robin Morgan--ed.) Pg. 54?, col. 2: Yet Morgan, and others in the women's movement, believe the personal is political and must be shared. (JSTOR) Review: [untitled review] Author(s) of Review: Siew Hwa Beh Reviewed Work(s): The Woman's Film by Judy Smith; Louise Alaimo; Ellen Sorrin Film Quarterly > Vol. 25, No. 1 (Autumn, 1971), pp. 48-49 Pg. 49: The film (THE WOMEN'S FILM - ed.) shows that personal experience leads to political action as these working-class women come to realize that the personal is political and the goal is political power. (JSTOR) Political Science Kay Boals Signs > Vol. 1, No. 1 (Autumn, 1975), pp. 161-174 Pg. 172: A further sense of the direction in which it may be desirable to move in reconceptualizing the nature and scope of politics is provided by the idea, prominent within the feminist movement, that "the personal is the political," that is, that the problems individuals encounter are not the result of unique personal weakness, but rather are caused by the structure of societal institutions, and in particular by the sex-role system. Review: [untitled review] Author(s) of Review: Walter L. Goldfrank Reviewed Work(s): Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made. by Eugene D. Genovese Contemporary Sociology > Vol. 4, No. 6 (Nov., 1975), pp. 619-624 Pg. 623: Contemporary sociologists have begun to recognize the pervasiveness of power and domination in ordinary institutional life ("the personal is political"). (PROQUEST) Publication title:Off Our Backs. Washington: Jun 30, 1975. Vol. 5, Iss. 5; pg. 7 NEW YORK -- The longtime radical feminists of Redstockings (founded in early 1969, disbanded in late 1970 and recreated in 1973,) held a press conference on May 9 at the Media Women's Conference, which was presented at the same time as the MORE journalism convention. At the press conference, Redstockings presented a sixteen-page document alleging that Gloria Steinem had worked for the CIA for at least ten years (1959-69) and that Ms. magazine is not an authentic part of the liberal feminist movement, but is hurting the movement. The Redstockings women, who originated consciousness-raising and coined such slogans as "sisterhood is powerful" and "the personal is political", say that they have studied Steinem and Ms. for a year. They say that Steinem not only worked for a CIA-funded group, the Independent Research Service, (a group that they say Ramparts exposed in 1967), from 1959-62, but also continued on its Board of Directors in 1968-69, after the Ramparts exposure. This directorship was mentioned in her first listing in Who's Who in America, but in all later editions of Who's Who her period of employment is reduced from three years (1959-62) to one year (1959-60) and the later directorship is never mentioned again. Redstockings say this is typical of the media's coverage of Steinem; they say the media installed her as a "leader" of the women's movement and covered her past activities. From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Mon Mar 28 10:12:27 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:12:27 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) Message-ID: >From a discussion on WMST-L, the women's studies teaching listserv: ----- http://research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/pisp.html Carol Hanisch has a brief essay called "The Personal is Political" in the Redstockings collection *Feminist Revolution* -- her essay is dated March 1969 (204-205). The essay defends consciousness-raising against the charge that it is "therapy." Hanisch states "One of the first things we discover in these groups is that personal problems are political problems. There are no personal solutions at this time." ----- --Ben Zimmer From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 11:23:37 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:23:37 -0500 Subject: "the personal is political" (1971) In-Reply-To: <8C70193A527961E-C94-3CFE3@mblk-r22.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > A "personal" request was made for this. The coinage was an article by Carol Hanisch, entitled "The Personal Is Political," published in _Notes from the Second Year_ in 1969. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 15:21:04 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:21:04 -0800 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something creative to impress us ? I've heard of "shittin' and grinnin'," natch. JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Hola ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi...long time listener, first time caller. What a splendid list, with a carnivorous email volume teeming with, for once, my verbal betters. I've seen some impassioned unsubscribe notices since I joined and have wondered why? As a strokee ("stroke survivor," "stroker," "brain attackee" - however "stroke victim" is d?class? and pass?), I've been pretty much become confined to a 2 by 2 butt-print in front of my Mac. Thus, online is my oyster. A good deal of it I find banal, but every once in a while, I'll stumble across a gem such as ADS. Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be credentialed? Any list that actually allows for the enlightened investigation of the word "fuck", without the attendant "thyself" (or, as dictated by the METALLICA RULZ, a barrage of juvenile epithets) is a cyber sandbox in which I'd like to play. I've tried to read the list awhile before posting to get the "lay of the LAN", but with such a high volume I find it difficult to understand what goes here and what doesn't. Some posts seem very scholarly, others casual, so I am guessing it is fairly ecumenical in that regard, nest ce pas? I look to be enlightened and have some shits 'n' grins. Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Mar 28 15:25:44 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:25:44 -0600 Subject: Hola Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 9:21 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Hola > > Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just > something creative to impress us ? > > I've heard of "shittin' and grinnin'," natch. > > JL During the 1980 Republican National Convention, the Democratic opposition was Jimmy Carter (aka "Grits") and Walter Mondale (aka "Fritz"). I clearly remember seeing a sign being carried around on the convention floor, saying "Fritz and Grits give me the shits". It was the first time I had been exposed to that scatalogical term over broadcast TV. > "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" > Subject: Hola > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > Hi...long time listener, first time caller. > > Can any verbivore come in and play or does one have to be > credentialed? Rex -- I'm not credentialed by any stretch, and they treat me nice -- probably better than I deserve. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Mon Mar 28 17:58:29 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 09:58:29 -0800 Subject: documentate!! Message-ID: I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of the ethnic connotation. Fritz >>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 18:06:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:06:29 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >the ethnic connotation. >Fritz Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to have heard that claim at some point. Larry > >>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>>From a lurker in Baltimore: > >Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? > >I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. > >Or perhaps they're actually words??? > >Christine Gray > > >> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) > >Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >the sense of "sweet-talk" v. > >-Wilson Gray > >> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >> even >> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >> are >> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> From rshuy at MONTANA.COM Mon Mar 28 17:23:37 2005 From: rshuy at MONTANA.COM (Roger Shuy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:23:37 -0600 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281755.j2SHtkWD032720@mistersix.montana.com> Message-ID: on 3/28/05 12:06 PM, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --> - > > At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >> I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >> do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >> the ethnic connotation. >> Fritz > > Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to > have heard that claim at some point. > > Larry > >> >>>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>> From a lurker in Baltimore: >> >> Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? >> >> I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. >> >> Or perhaps they're actually words??? >> >> Christine Gray >> >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >> Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >> the sense of "sweet-talk" v. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> >>> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >>> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >>> even >>> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >>> are >>> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >>> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> > I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in which the copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" should be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." Obviously I'm objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the -ate movement is going these days. Roger Shuy From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Mar 28 18:32:51 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 10:32:51 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 9:23 AM, Roger Shuy wrote: > ...I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in > which the > copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" > should > be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." > Obviously I'm > objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the > -ate > movement is going these days. sometime you ate the bear, sometimes the bear ate you. arnold From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Mon Mar 28 18:32:26 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 19:32:26 +0100 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to > have heard that claim at some point. That's so. It's the standard form for me, to the extent that "orient" sounds a little odd. On the matter of eggcorns, a subscriber wrote today to say, "Over the past week leading up to Easter, I've seen three separate instances of the word 'crucifiction.'" He wondered whether this showed a sceptical attitude to religion or was a mistake. My money's on the latter. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 28 19:11:16 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:11:16 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050327215525.84021.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >subway for a long time afterwards. That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other SF and math-related great things. I should find that again. Jesse Sheidlower OED From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Mar 28 19:17:05 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:17:05 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050328191116.GA6956@panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it > >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, > >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the > >subway for a long time afterwards. > > That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia > Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other > SF and math-related great things. I should find that > again. This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked House," referenced in a later post. JTS From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Mon Mar 28 19:03:31 2005 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:03:31 -0600 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in which the >copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" should >be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." Obviously I'm >objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the -ate >movement is going these days. > >Roger Shuy Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? Barbara From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 28 20:11:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:11:46 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. -Wilson Gray On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>> Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >>> in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >>> greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >>> subway for a long time afterwards. >> >> That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia >> Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other >> SF and math-related great things. I should find that >> again. > > This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked > House," referenced in a later post. > > JTS > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Mon Mar 28 20:20:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:20:08 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >> which the >> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >> should >> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >> Obviously I'm >> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >> -ate >> movement is going these days. >> >> Roger Shuy > > Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? > > Barbara > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments in which we would-never-use one. -Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Mar 28 20:38:38 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:38:38 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <0b57c18a2400b4e6a4fe95df46db7a22@rcn.com> Message-ID: >As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had >occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story >had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the >subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston >while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also >wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts >of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I >expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random >people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. > >-Wilson Gray Maybe there was a wine-tasting they were all attending? (For some reason, I always have had this strong UC Davis/oenology association working for me.) Larry From LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM Mon Mar 28 21:05:51 2005 From: LBNath88545112 at AOL.COM (Lois Nathan) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:05:51 EST Subject: twat Message-ID: I had a very good friend from North Carolina, in the early 1970s, who used "twat" to refer to a female backside. This especially when that backside was one that made itself noticeable. Lois Nathan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 21:51:55 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:51:55 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I've seen "orientate" in Standard English contexts so many times in UK English written by Ph.D.'s that I don't even notice it any more. JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of the ethnic connotation. Fritz >>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >From a lurker in Baltimore: Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. Or perhaps they're actually words??? Christine Gray > "conversate" for "converse" (v.) Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in the sense of "sweet-talk" v. -Wilson Gray > would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). > Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), > even > very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, > are > excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is > 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. > > -- Doug Wilson > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 21:57:41 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 13:57:41 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I can't remember the anthology, Jesse, except that it was published by Doubleday around 1959. "Fantastica Mathematica" sounds very much like something I need to look into. Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or something ? Anyone who hasn't read "Flatland" must do so soonest. JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >subway for a long time afterwards. That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other SF and math-related great things. I should find that again. Jesse Sheidlower OED --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 22:00:38 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:00:38 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: What are the chances, Wilson ? If, as Einstain said, "God doesn't play dice," He certainly plays Bingo ! (Note to pointyheads: Yeah, I know quantum theory shows that he probably plays dice too - and Monopoly.) JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. I expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. -Wilson Gray On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 02:11:16PM -0500, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 01:55:25PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>> Wow, Wilson, you read "A Subway Named Moebius" ? I read it >>> in an anthology about 1960. I thought it was the weirdest, >>> greatest story ever written ! I was afraid to ride the >>> subway for a long time afterwards. >> >> That was extremely great. Was the collection _Fantasia >> Mathematica_? Which also contained a number of other >> SF and math-related great things. I should find that >> again. > > This collection also contained "And He Built a Crooked > House," referenced in a later post. > > JTS > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Mar 28 22:10:12 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:10:12 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly ancient.) Especially pernicious are hyphens within multipart verbs, e.g. "I thought I'd freak-out" or "Time to hit-the-sack." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >> which the >> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >> should >> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >> Obviously I'm >> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >> -ate >> movement is going these days. >> >> Roger Shuy > > Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? > > Barbara > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments in which we would-never-use one. -Wilson --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Mar 28 23:54:40 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:54:40 -0500 Subject: Hola In-Reply-To: <200503280721.1dfW386rB3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 7:21 AM -0800 3/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something >creative to impress us ? Um, far be it from me to even dare to impress this fast lexical crowd. My coinages are generally really awful puns and as I've been currently reading the at once entertaining and mildly pedantic "Predicting New Words" by Allan Metcalf (Houghton Mifflin), I'm told that MY style of neologizing is destined for utter failure. Sigh.... But, more to the point.... "shits & grins" has been in use, at least in rural Indiana for as long as I could count. My grandfolks used it (well, the cool grandfolks, the ones not stuck on Puritanical mouth worship) and I've heard enough other non-kin use it to know it wasn't just a family custom. It is somewhat derivative or precedential to "shits & giggles", I know not which. Google the expression & you'll find a few hundred citations. In fact, this from a BBS call Wordorigins Org (no dot): "I'm more familiar with the phrase "shits and grins" and have been using it for decades. My son taught me "shits and giggles" when he was in college a bit over ten years ago." I'm a shittin' & I'm a grinnin' (apologies to Roy Clark & Buck Owens) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Mar 29 00:31:53 2005 From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:31:53 +0000 Subject: twat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 01:00:25 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:00:25 -0500 Subject: orientate (was documentate) Message-ID: orientate is indeed old--MW11 (1848). Earlier hits in NewspaperArchive.com are misses. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 28, 2005 at 1:06 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: documentate!! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >At 9:58 AM -0800 3/28/05, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >>I hear orientate all the time--I think there are a lot of people who >>do not even know 'orient'. Maybe they do and avoid it because of >>the ethnic connotation. >>Fritz > >Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem to >have heard that claim at some point. > >Larry > >> >>>>> langwidge at EROLS.COM 03/26/05 04:42PM >>> >>>>From a lurker in Baltimore: >> >>Are orientate, documentate, conversate, etc. becoming more common? >> >>I hear them used more frequently now than I did several years ago. >> >>Or perhaps they're actually words??? >> >>Christine Gray >> >> >>> "conversate" for "converse" (v.) >> >>Isn't "conversate" slang? Since I was a teenager, this has been used in >>the sense of "sweet-talk" v. >> >>-Wilson Gray >> >>> would be more comparable (20,000 supposed hits by naive Google). >>> Anyway, many 'errors' or 'nonstandard variants' (of various types), >>> even >>> very common ones and even ones which have been in use for a long time, >>> are >>> excluded from the dictionaries. Any question of whether or not this is >>> 'good' I'll leave to R. H. Fiske et al. >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 01:46:58 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:46:58 -0500 Subject: solicitate (was documentate) Message-ID: solicitate (1921) In an advertisement for a bank in the Wichita Fails Daily Times (5/20/21): "Why we solicitate your business ..." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 02:18:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:18:19 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly > ancient.) > > Especially pernicious are hyphens within multipart verbs, e.g. "I > thought I'd freak-out" or "Time to hit-the-sack." > > JL > Speaking of hitting the fart sack, don't forget to log-off before you do, Jon. -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: documentate!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 28, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Barbara Need wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Barbara Need >> Subject: Re: documentate!! >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >>> I just got back the copy edited version of a book I'm writing in >>> which the >>> copyeditor decided that my use of "in a solicitation to murder case" >>> should >>> be changed into a verbal expression, "to solicitate a murder." >>> Obviously I'm >>> objecitating to this monstrous change. But maybe that's they way the >>> -ate >>> movement is going these days. >>> >>> Roger Shuy >> >> Would like it better with hyphens: "in a solicitation-to-murder case"? >> >> Barbara >> > > I agree with you, Barb. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the hyphen is > going the way of the dinosaur. Except, of-course, in those environments > in which we would-never-use one. > > -Wilson > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 02:55:51 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:55:51 -0500 Subject: solicitate (was documentate) Message-ID: Silly me. I should have looked in OED first. Solicitate: 1. to manage or conduct (1547) 2. to excite, stir up, or stimulate (1568) 3. to request, entreat, beseech (1563) 4. to take action, make application (1572) The entry is labelled "obs." Perhaps not anymore. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society on Monday, March 28, 2005 at 8:46 PM -0500 wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Barnhart >Subject: solicitate (was documentate) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >solicitate (1921) > >In an advertisement for a bank in the Wichita Fails Daily Times (5/20/21): > >"Why we solicitate your business ..." From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 02:58:25 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:58:25 -0500 Subject: documentate!! Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:10:12 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Me too. Or "me three" as the case may be. (Not in OED but undoubtedly >ancient.) Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections can probably beat that. ----- Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me too." ----- --Ben Zimmer From dwhause at JOBE.NET Tue Mar 29 03:02:16 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 21:02:16 -0600 Subject: Hola Message-ID: I've also been hearing and using it for a long time (grew up in central Ill. but been in the Army for a long time). (And, with no particular linguistic credentials, I've been making the periodic contribution for about two years with no particular flames - it's a pretty flame free list.) Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex W. Stocklin" At 7:21 AM -0800 3/28/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Okay, I'll bite. Is "shits 'n' grins" legit, or just something >creative to impress us ? But, more to the point.... "shits & grins" has been in use, at least in rural Indiana for as long as I could count. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 03:09:15 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:09:15 -0500 Subject: recent examples of solicitated Message-ID: Found in five returns on four sites from Google News: NDTV.com (India) News Today (India) TVShowOnDVD.com (Canada) Press Trust of India Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 03:16:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:16:22 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Try looking in Google for "Just because my hair is curly" and "Just because my teeth is/are pearly." There appears to be a lack of agreement as to which of these is the correct first line. Looking under various combinations of "shine" and "frankie laine" and "lyrics" doesn't yield much useful info. -Wilson Gray On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 29 03:37:43 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:37:43 -0500 Subject: Iron Pipeline Message-ID: IRON PIPELINE + GUNS--247 Google hits, 18 Google Groups hits "Iron pipeline" is not in the Historical Dictionary of American Slang and not in the Cassell Dictionary of Slang. I'll add it to my website. 28 March 2005, AM NEW YORK, pg. 1, cols. 2-4 headline: _THE GUN RUN_ _New York's Finest struggle_ _to shut down I-95's "Iron Pipeline"_ (...) The highway is dubbed the "Iron Pipeline bacuse thousands of guns purchased in Georgia, Virginia, Florida and North and South Carolina travel up the coastline on that road and wind up being used in crimes in New York. (GOOGLE GROUPS) "Intellectual Argument for Gun Control " ... area knows, I-55 and I-57 serve not only as Dick Durbin's alleged "iron pipeline," but also ... Such is much more plausible than some evil "gun running" conspiracy ... talk.politics.guns - Aug 17 1997, 10:30 am by Bang - 2505 messages - 273 authors What's the GunRunning State THIS Week? ... Expy., it can also be considered a Firearms Freeway or the Iron Pipeline,'' Blagojevich said ... down to states where the laws are lax.'' Of the 4,539 guns used in ... talk.politics.guns - Jul 14 1997, 3:24 am by HerrGlock - 4 messages - 4 authors 1997CRH4920C URGING SUPPORT FOR RESTRICTIONS ON GUN TRAFFICKERS ... It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, ``Have gun, will travel.'' We can take steps to shut the valve on the iron pipeline and on other interstate ... gov.us.fed.congress.record.house - Jul 10 1997, 10:10 am by n... at house.gov - 1 message - 1 author (FACTIVA) NATIONAL NEWS Guns bought in Georgia arm Northern criminals Bill Montgomery STAFF WRITER 1,519 words 11 October 1993 Atlanta Constitution A/1 Because of Georgia's lax gun-control laws, guns bought here are involved in an ever-increasing number of crimes in major Northern cities. They are not, for the most part, stolen guns. They are legally purchased and sent up Interstate 95's "Iron Pipeline" to cities where gun- control laws are generally tighter. (FACTIVA) LOCAL NEWS 3 men charged with running guns to N.Y. R. Robin McDonald STAFF WRITER 227 words 17 December 1993 Atlanta Constitution F/2 A two-year investigation by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI culminated this week with the indictments of two Atlanta men and one former resident on charges of running guns from Atlanta to New York. The indictments, issued by a federal grand jury in Atlanta Wednesday, charge Jibri Abdur Rahman, 39, and Amin Abdur Karim, 33, with using their Atlanta business, the Al-Fajr Trading Co., to purchase guns that were later shipped to New York and illegally sold, the U.S. attorney's office in Atlanta said Thursday. The indictments say Rahman and Karim bought more than 900 handguns and assault weapons between 1989 and 1991 and shipped them to an unlicensed gun dealer in New York. In a separate indictment, former Atlanta resident Gregory Andrew, now of West Palm Beach, Fla., was charged with illegally shipping firearms by Federal Express from Georgia to New York, federal authorities said. The indictments are part of an ongoing effort by the ATF to stem the illegal flow of guns along Interstate 95, dubbed "the Iron Pipeline," between Atlanta and Northern cities such as New York, where laws regulating gun sales are far more strict, said Thomas Stokes, special agent in charge of the ATF's Atlanta office. (FACTIVA) NEWS DAILY NEWS SPECIAL REPORT GEORGIA'S GUNS 0N N.Y.'S MIND Probers link attacks to flood of pistols from South PATRICE O'SHAUGHNESSY DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER 897 words 16 May 2000 New York Daily News SPORTS FINAL 7 The city's illegal gun market is booming, and authorities blame an "iron pipeline" from northwestern Georgia that enabled just one group of gunrunners to bring as many as 100 weapons here. (FACTIVA) News Student gunrunning is growing problem for N.Y. PATRICE O'SHAUGHNESSY New York Daily News 876 words 20 October 2002 The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Early 23A (...) 'Iron pipeline' Georgia, which does not restrict the number of firearms in a single purchase, has been dubbed "the iron pipeline" because so many guns flow from there. David Fields, a supervisory agent for the bureau in Atlanta, said it's been a perennial problem -- students in Georgia fueling the black market for weapons in their hometowns. "But if you're from a market area like New York, the temptation is greater," Fields said. "We're seeing more of them more frequently now." (FACTIVA) Editorial Desk; Section A Shutting Down the 'Iron Pipeline' 397 words 8 May 2003 The New York Times Page 36, Column 1 In a Brooklyn courtroom last month, a Columbia University professor delivered a lesson in why existing gun laws do not work. The professor, Dr. Howard Andrews, testified that 90 percent of the guns recovered in New York crime investigations from 1996 to 2000 had been bought out of state. A large number came from five states with lax gun laws: Virginia, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina. The suit in which Dr. Andrews testified, in which a ruling is expected shortly, charges gun manufacturers and dealers with doing too little to stop illegal handgun sales. His data give the fullest picture yet of the ''iron pipeline,'' in which guns are transported from Southern states. The iron pipeline is one of the biggest factors in thwarting New York in its efforts to keep guns off the streets and out of the hands of criminals. There are ways to stop the flow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--Old Town Bar, 45 East 18th Street. Not too crowded on a Monday. (GOOGLE) Old Town Bar & Restaurant in Flatiron/Gramercy/Union Square in New ... ... up to Old Town's mahogany bar since 1892. Map it Hours Daily, 11:30am-1am Subway Stops L, N, R, 4, 5, 6 to 14th St. The Scene After Work Bar Food Classic NY ... www.newyorkmetro.com/pages/details/4017.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Tue Mar 29 03:50:43 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:50:43 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1910 version of "Shine" > > VERSE > When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > But I don't care a bit. > Here's how I figure it: > > CHORUS > > Well, just because my hair is curly, > And just because my teeth is pearly, > Just because I always wears a smile, > Likes to dress up in the latest style. > Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > Just because my color's shady, > Slightly different, maybe. > That is why they call me shine. On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm > also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big > in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought > ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears > from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or > if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Mar 29 04:27:23 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:27:23 -0500 Subject: "Best way to secure freedom is to practice it" (Bill Buckley) Message-ID: 28 March 2005, New York Sun, "Free Speech At Columbia Hits the Wall" by William F. Buckley, Jr., pg. 9, col. 1: The aphorism is that the best way to secure freedom is to practice it. A counter-aphorism would be that the best way to secure freedom is to acknowledge its limitations. (JSTOR) The Retreat from Heresy Frederick C. Neff The Scientific Monthly > Vol. 78, No. 1 (Jan., 1954), pp. 19-29 Pg.25: And the pragmatic fact that the only way to learn freedom is to practice it precludes any need--or possibility--of indoctrinating it. (GOOGLE) Welcome to uExpress featuring On the Right -- The Best Advice and ... ... the rise of rape off screen. The aphorism is that the best way to secure freedom is to practice it. A counter-aphorism would be ... www.uexpress.com/ontheright/ - 35k - Mar 27, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages Oliver Brown - Politics and Advice to Politicians ... There is nothing so painful as to hear a good cause discredited by spokesmen unworthy of it. The best way to defend freedom is to practise it. ... www.electricscotland.com/ history/oliverbrown/politics.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages The Randi Rhodes Show > Why Not "Isolationism" ... The best way to defend freedom is to practice it. The best way to spread freedom is to lead by example and to encourage with pen, not sword, those who want it. ... www.therandirhodesshow.com/randirhodes/ messageboards/lofiversion/index.php?t38789.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages Teach-In ... it is important for the Morgan community to come together and talk about it." He says that the best way to defend American freedom is to practice it in the ... www.msuspokesman.com/main.cfm/ include/detail/storyid/154049.html - 39k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages TheFiringLine Forums - So do we agree here or not? ... wonderful posts here. Most of you have grasped the concept that the easiest way to insure freedom is to practice it every day. Many of ... www.thefiringline.com/forums/ archive/index.php/t-32717.html - 27k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 04:52:54 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:52:54 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281006.1dfYDe7mw3NZFpK0@mx-a065b01.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0500 3/28/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >Isn't "orientate" more or less standard usage in the U.K.? I seem >to have heard that claim at some point. > >Larry Yo, my wife is a focus group research analyst and , well, you just wouldn't believe the strains on the Mother Tongue that are dished in these confabs. One was "orientated." After the umpteenth time, we asked some fairly educated friends of ours if they knew of its existence since it didn't quite ring true. And it wasn't in our household American Heritage Dictionary. One friend, a Brit, reported back that, indeed, it is in use across the pond. Since my wife submits her reports to CEOs and other self-important suits, she wanted to see documentation and, thus, sought out the OED. And sure and begorrah, if it wasn't right there. Occidentally yours, Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 04:55:13 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 23:55:13 -0500 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: <200503281858.1dg6W26F83NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:58 PM -0500 3/28/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections >can probably beat that. > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 >Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, >and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me >too." >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer Ahem, I think I can tie this whole thread together. Wasn't there a song?...ahem...."Me three kings of orientate are" - P'raps an utterance of the bard?, P'raps not. ;-) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 05:32:51 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:32:51 -0500 Subject: Fort Wood (was: Re: Hola) In-Reply-To: <200503281900.1dg6Yl3I73NZFpO0@mx-a065b19.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:02 PM -0600 3/28/05, Dave Hause wrote: >I've also been hearing and using it for a long time (grew up in >central Ill. but been in the Army for a long time). (And, with no >particular linguistic credentials, I've been making the periodic >contribution for about two years with no particular flames - it's a >pretty flame free list.) Thanx Dave, for the heads up, but I've been known to test the UL-approved limits. Lord knows why, I try to play nice. Guess cuz I am a smartass. ;-) > >Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net >Ft. Leonard Wood, MO Fort Wood, huh, I've got a question for ya. How long have you bivouacked there? Reason I axe is because on our many junkets hither and yon thru central MO, we've found respite in Rolla at this lovely dive called Papa Meaux's (perhaps THE best Creole/Cajun vittles slung outside of N'awlins). I wondered if you've heard of it and wondered whatever became of Papa Meaux. We drove through about two years ago and the place was no longer there, after being a fixture for years. Just down Kings Highway from the Sirloin Stockade or some such place. I'd be forever in your debt or....I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a Po'Boy today.... Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM Tue Mar 29 08:57:31 2005 From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:57:31 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames Message-ID: From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or > something ? > JL Jonathan, Maybe one or more of the following is what you had in mind? "Sphereland", Dionys Burger; "The Planiverse", Kee Dewdney; and, "Flatterland (like flatland, only more so)", Ian Stewart, (2001), Perseus Publishing. HTH, Bruce Hunter From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Mar 29 09:17:06 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:17:06 +0100 Subject: Pollyanna Message-ID: As you will have gathered, WWWords subscribers are a regular source of questions I can't answer. To judge from online comments, this one seems to puzzle a lot of people. Why, particularly in Pennsylvania, is a type of gift exchange by drawing lots - another name for which, I have just learned, is "secret Santa" - called a Pollyanna (in full, "Pollyanna gift exchange")? Could it possibly be derived from Eleanor Hodgman Porter's character? The earliest example I've found on newspaperarchive.com, which for once is a Coshocton Tribune citation that's correctly dated, is: 1947 Coshocton Tribune (Coshocton, Ohio) 16 Dec. 9/2 Ladies Aid Society of Nashville Church of Christ, all-day meeting Thursday at home of Mrs. Carl Drake at Loudonville; covered dish dinner at noon; Christmas gift exchange for members and a pollyanna gift exchange. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 11:51:53 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:51:53 -0800 Subject: documentate!! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Me three kings of orientate are." This sentence will not be grammatical for at least another five years. JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Re: documentate!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 9:58 PM -0500 3/28/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Proquest has it back to 1958, though Barry's kid-lore collections >can probably beat that. > >----- >Los Angeles Times, Jun 13, 1958, p. A5 >Mrs. C.C., Los Angeles, would like to donate without buying candy, >and G.B., Los Angeles adds "Me three!" to another's antiselling "Me >too." >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer Ahem, I think I can tie this whole thread together. Wasn't there a song?...ahem...."Me three kings of orientate are" - P'raps an utterance of the bard?, P'raps not. ;-) Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 11:54:51 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 03:54:51 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Sphereland" is it, but the others sound interesting as well. JL Bruce Hunter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Bruce Hunter Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jonathan Lighter" > Wasn't there a sequel to Abbott's "Flatland" written about twenty years back ? "Sphereland" or > something ? > JL Jonathan, Maybe one or more of the following is what you had in mind? "Sphereland", Dionys Burger; "The Planiverse", Kee Dewdney; and, "Flatterland (like flatland, only more so)", Ian Stewart, (2001), Perseus Publishing. HTH, Bruce Hunter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Tue Mar 29 16:27:48 2005 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:27:48 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It may well be, Michael, that your subscriber from Poland is asking about that precise spelling of Great Googily Moogily because the Beast in the preschooler cartoon Maggie and the Ferocious Beast (on Noggin--see http://www.noggin.com/shows/maggie.php) says "Great Googily Moogily!" as his catchphrase. Yeah, you're laughing, but why would someone from Poland come up with that all of a sudden? Does your subscriber have access to international children's TV programming? Or perhaps that person's got a child of school age who's got friends who've spent time in the US? Catch phrases spread like wildfire among children, and I've noticed that there are a lot of Polish names in the credits for some of these animated series, which may mean that the Nickelodeon/Noggin producers are outsourcing some of the animation work. Yes, I've got a toddler. Wendalyn Nichols >At 9:56 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >>> >>>Poster: "Baker, John" >>>Subject: Re: Great googily moogily >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I would say it goes back to the song "Good Googa Mooga," >>>which I believe was by the Magic Tones in 1953. It seems to be >>>best-known for Frank Zappa's use in "Nanook Rubs It," There's a >>>discussion of the term at >>>http://www.1960sailors.net/05c1_googamooga.htm. >>> >>>John Baker From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 18:58:25 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 10:58:25 -0800 Subject: noviciate Message-ID: Hypercorrectional orthography : 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure knight's quest." "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 19:30:07 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:30:07 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <200503241844.1deEOJ3Ck3NZFpB0@mx-a065a10.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 9:44 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, >in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll >have to check my collection. Ah, the Spaniels! Now that the gloved one has been skewered, Ja-Net has been uncovered and the rest of the Jackson clan, well, have become has-beens, mayhap the erstwhile pride of Gary, IN, Professor Harold Hill notwithstanding. But I was unable to recall that lyric in any of their tuneage, thus I googled the juxtaposition and netted nada. Perhaps I should have used Moogle? ;-) "Goodnight, Jacko, Goodnight" Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 19:45:08 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:45:08 -0800 Subject: "and +[verb]ing" as subordinator Message-ID: OK, this is probably just bad copy-editing, but what the heck.... 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky. ) 25 "Even Jefferson Davis, the worn-out and humiliated ex-president of the Confederacy and going to federal prison in 1865, was described by Southerners as King Arthur being spirited to Avalon." Now if this passage were a representation of Anglo-Hibernian dialect, perhaps the disconnect could be explained as an inadvertent deletion of "he" : *...and he goin' to federal prison... But it isn't. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 19:49:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 11:49:52 -0800 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: This collegial message, hot off the screen, is a splendid ex. of a proof-reading problem that far-future linguists may find overly fascinating : "If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on campus, I'll try to be in my office." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU Tue Mar 29 19:51:59 2005 From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:51:59 -0500 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker Message-ID: SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/217802_grammar28.asp A Word to the unwise -- program's grammar check isn't so smart Monday, March 28, 2005 By TODD BISHOP SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER Microsoft the company should big improve Word grammar check. No, your eyes aren't deceiving you. That sentence is a confusing jumble. However, it is perfectly fine in the assessment of Microsoft Word's built-in grammar checker, which detects no problem with the prose. Sandeep Krishnamurthy thinks Microsoft can do a lot better. The University of Washington associate professor has embarked on a one-man mission to persuade the Redmond company to improve the grammar-checking function in its popular word-processing program. Krishnamurthy is also trying to raise public awareness of the issue. "If you're a grad student turning in your term paper, and you think grammar check has completely checked your paper, I have news for you -- it really hasn't," he said. Microsoft says it has been making continuous improvements in the grammar-checking tool, and the company notes that the issue is more complex than it might seem. Experts in natural-language processing say the broader issue reflects a deep technological challenge beyond the current capabilities of computer science. "It is tremendously difficult," said Karen Jensen, a retired Microsoft researcher who led the company's Natural Language Processing research group as it developed the underlying technology for the grammar checker, which debuted in 1997. "It gives you all kinds of respect for a human being's native ability to learn and understand in natural language." But Krishnamurthy, a professor of marketing and e-commerce at the UW's Bothell campus, isn't convinced that the software giant is doing everything it can -- and he supports his point with eye-catching examples. He has crafted and posted for public download several documents containing awful grammar. Depending on the version and settings, the Word grammar checker sometimes detects a few of the problems. But it overlooks the majority of them -- skipping misplaced apostrophes, singular-plural inconsistencies, missing articles, sentence fragments, improper capitalization and other problems. An excerpt from one of his documents: "Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying? It is no wondering that advertisings are bad for company in America, Chicago and Germany. ... McDonald's and Coca Cola are good brand. ... Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft." With examples like that passing through unflagged, Krishnamurthy questions whether Microsoft should even offer the grammar-checking feature in its existing state. "If you're including a feature in a widely used program like Microsoft Word, it's got to pick up more things than it currently does," he said. "I agree, the English language is very complicated, but I think we should expect more from grammar check." By comparison, the grammar checker in Corel Corp.'s WordPerfect Office 12 catches many of the errors in Krishnamurthy's test documents that aren't detected by the Microsoft Word 2003 grammar checker, even set at the highest sensitivity to errors. In fact, there is room for Microsoft to make incremental improvements in Word's grammar checker, said Christopher Manning, assistant professor of linguistics and computer science at Stanford University. For example, he said, the Word grammar checker could benefit from greater use of advanced probabilistic and statistical methods to analyze sentences and flag problems. Microsoft has applied some of that more advanced research to competitive and high-profile areas such as Web search and spam detection. Microsoft says the grammar-checker does use probabilistic techniques in addition to more basic, rules-based methods. But with further use of advanced approaches, it appears possible for Word's grammar checker to improve, Manning said. However, he said, "It still wouldn't be as good as a good human editor." Microsoft calls that the fundamental issue. Responding to an inquiry about Krishnamurthy's examples, the Microsoft Office group said in a statement that the grammar checker "was created to be a guide and a tool, not a perfect proofreader." Microsoft also makes that point in Word's product documentation. The statement added, "It is possible to list a number of sentences that you would expect the Word grammar checker to catch that it doesn't. But that doesn't represent real-world usage. The Word grammar checker is designed to catch the kinds of errors that ordinary users make in normal writing situations." It would be possible to "dial up the sensitivity" of the Word grammar checker to catch more errors, the company said. However, that could also cause it to flag sentences considered correct in colloquial usage. That would risk making the tool more intrusive than people want, the company said. In fact, Microsoft dialed down the sensitivity of the grammar checker in certain respects starting in 2002, responding to customer feedback. For example, some people objected when the tool flagged sentences of more than 40 words as "perhaps excessively complex." Krishnamurthy said he considers the company's view too simplistic. He suggested that Microsoft further increase the available settings, beyond the current options, to let people essentially "pick the level of intrusion." He also said the company should offer an add-on for people who need extra help, such as students for whom English is a second language. As it now stands, the tool helps good writers but "really doesn't help bad writers at all," he said. Krishnamurthy, 37, grew up in Hyderabad, India. A textbook author and a frequent contributor to scholarly journals, he is passionate about writing and the English language. But how did a marketing and e-commerce professor become a grammar-checking crusader? While always stressing the importance of writing well in the first place, Krishnamurthy would also routinely tell his students to run the Word spelling and grammar checks as a precaution before turning in their papers. Then, last year, one student turned in a badly written report. "The least you could have done is run spell-check and grammar-check," Krishnamurthy said. "But I did!" the student said. That prompted the professor to investigate, and he began discovering blind spots in the Word grammar-checking tool. Krishnamurthy ultimately decided to assemble specific examples of bad grammar that made it through undetected. He began circulating them last week via e-mail to friends, colleagues and Seattle-area media. He also created a Web page for the purpose: http://faculty.washington.edu/sandeep/check. The professor is careful to point out that he's not out to bash Microsoft. But he says the company is spending too much energy on extraneous capabilities, while neglecting core features such as the grammar checker. Among other things, Microsoft is trying to expand the market for Microsoft Office by adding a series of related server-based programs. Office and related software make up Microsoft's second-most profitable division, bringing in more than $7.1 billion in operating profit in the last fiscal year. The core Office programs dominate the market. Despite the lack of intense competition, there is a business incentive for Microsoft to invest in core features, said analyst Rob Helm, research director at Kirkland-based research firm Directions on Microsoft. That's because one of the company's biggest challenges is persuading customers to upgrade from older versions of its own programs. By making improvements to features such as the grammar and spelling checkers, Microsoft "can give people an additional incentive" to shift to the newer version, Helm said. Jensen, the retired Microsoft researcher who worked on the original grammar-checking technology, said major advances would involve making computers understand sentences in ways that humans would. As an example, she cited one of the sentences used in Krishnamurthy's sample documents: "Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft." Only by knowing that "Gates" probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence -- would the program know to suggest using "does" instead. "It's this level of understanding that you just can't expect a computer to have at this point," Jensen said. "Someday, of course, it would be great, but we're not there yet." In the meantime, Krishnamurthy is spreading the message. He doesn't suggest that anyone stop using the grammar-checking tool, but he wants people to fully understand its limitations and not consider it a substitute for good writing and editing. In one part of his Web site, he has posted a cautionary list of "top writing mistakes" made by his students. No. 11: "Assuming that Microsoft Word's spelling and grammar check will solve all writing problems." ___________________________________ On the Net: faculty.washington.edu/sandeep/check P-I reporter Todd Bishop can be reached at 206-448-8221or toddbishop at seattlepi.com P-I senior online producer Brian Chin contributed to this report. ? 1998-2005 Seattle Post-Intelligencer From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Mar 29 19:55:18 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:55:18 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: <20050329185825.78084.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an entry of its own there.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hypercorrectional orthography : > > 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 > "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure > knight's quest." > > "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Mar 29 20:06:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 12:06:07 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as in its primary citation). And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 years. But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: noviciate ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an entry of its own there.) Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Hypercorrectional orthography : > > 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 > "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure > knight's quest." > > "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From dcamp at CHILITECH.NET Tue Mar 29 20:00:25 2005 From: dcamp at CHILITECH.NET (Duane Campbell) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 15:00:25 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: -------Original Message------- >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on campus, I'll try to be in my >office." ++++++++++++++++++++++ I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had things like that make it into print. It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. D From langwidge at EROLS.COM Tue Mar 29 21:53:10 2005 From: langwidge at EROLS.COM (crg) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:10 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Frank Zappa says "great googly moogly" in his album _Apostrophe_. I think it's in the space between "St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast" and "Father O'Blivion." Christine Gray At 9:44 PM -0500 3/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote: >The "great googly moogly" version also occurs, I'm *almost* certain, >in a song by the Spaniels. I can't think of the title, offhand. I'll >have to check my collection. Ah, the Spaniels! Now that the gloved one has been skewered, Ja-Net has been uncovered and the rest of the Jackson clan, well, have become has-beens, mayhap the erstwhile pride of Gary, IN, Professor Harold Hill notwithstanding. But I was unable to recall that lyric in any of their tuneage, thus I googled the juxtaposition and netted nada. Perhaps I should have used Moogle? ;-) "Goodnight, Jacko, Goodnight" Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Mar 29 22:17:05 2005 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:17:05 -0500 Subject: jargonese (1957) Message-ID: Edward Clark?s [Kingston College] translation of ?peasantry? as ?those who by socio-economic standards are graded as belonging to the stratum of the community depending on pastroro-agricultural pursuits for a livelihood? is, in my opinion, first-class jargonese. Thomas Wright, ?Get It Straight,? The Daily Gleaner [Kingston, Jamaica], March 2, 1957, p 6 American Dialect Society on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 at 3:06 PM -0500 wrote: > >That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >entry of its own there.) > >Grant Barrett From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 22:23:05 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:23:05 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:53:10 -0500, crg wrote: >Frank Zappa says "great googly moogly" in his album _Apostrophe_. > >I think it's in the space between "St.Alphonzo's Pancake Breakfast" and >"Father O'Blivion." As John Baker noted upthread, Zappa says the phrase in "Nanook Rubs It", the second track on _Apostrophe_. ----- And then In a fit of anger I pounced And I pounced again Great Googly Moogly! http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/Apostrophe/02.html http://www.arf.ru/Notes/Apostro/rubsit.html ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Tue Mar 29 22:28:58 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:28:58 -0500 Subject: jargonese (1957) Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:17:05 -0500, Barnhart wrote: > >Edward Clark?s [Kingston College] translation of ?peasantry? as ?those >who by socio-economic standards are graded as belonging to the stratum >of the community depending on pastroro-agricultural pursuits for a >livelihood? is, in my opinion, first-class jargonese. >Thomas Wright, ?Get It Straight,? The Daily Gleaner [Kingston, Jamaica], >March 2, 1957, p 6 JSTOR's got it back to 1940... ----- The author's single eye for organization allows to pass into the text many trite and fuzzy lumps of jargonese he probably would never acccept from a student. Review: Technical Reports Author(s) of Review: A. M. Fountain Reviewed Work(s): Writing the Technical Report by J. Raleigh Nelson College English > Vol. 1, No. 8 (May, 1940), pp. 717-718 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0010-0994%28194005%291%3A8%3C717%3ATR%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 ----- --Ben Zimmer From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Tue Mar 29 23:21:28 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:21:28 -0500 Subject: Great googily moogily In-Reply-To: <200503291423.1dgp782Lv3NZFpK0@mx-a065b01.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 5:23 PM -0500 3/29/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >As John Baker noted upthread, Zappa says the phrase in "Nanook Rubs >It", the second track on _Apostrophe_. Now there's a fun word I've yet to encounter...."upthread", not necessarily sexy, but so perfectly fitting as to have seemingly always been. Can we now have, say, threadwidth? Or "I've spooled the last three posts". WAIT, someone beat me to THAT one . He sez, bobbin his head up & down, trying to put the list in stitches. Sigh.... Finding dental floss hard to negotiate with zircon-encrusted tweezers, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Tue Mar 29 23:50:22 2005 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:50:22 -0600 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker In-Reply-To: <200503291952.j2TJq0Go002299@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: He needs to tell them to work on the speech recognition function in Word, also. I am having great fun playing with it. After three tries, I got this: Once upon a time there was a little cat name jezebel space jezebel ran ran ran because she was my [ hyper and to she exercise every day jezebel was in training for the cat Olympics and when she ran she also jumped Clyde and the kitty ballet jezebel strainer was a cat named Lee?s Louise did not run very fast but she still run after jezebel me howling me at winged a give up and trying to encourage jezebel to run faster when Louise caught up with jezebel she would biter on the tail and tougher her with her large pot tilapia did give it up. In a session and that of session this session is now over look at It has training sessions, but I am not sure who is training what exactly. DWells From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET Wed Mar 30 00:55:04 2005 From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:55:04 +0000 Subject: article about Microsoft grammar checker Message-ID: I just read your post and am wondering if this is the method used to generate the emails I keep getting about Viagra that include random words to sneak past my spam filter. I find them strangely compelling.... Carrie Lowery -------------- Original message -------------- > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wells Darla L > Subject: Re: article about Microsoft grammar checker > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > He needs to tell them to work on the speech recognition function in Word, > also. I am having great fun playing with it. After three tries, I got this: > > Once upon a time there was a little cat name jezebel space jezebel ran ran ran > because she was my [ hyper and to she exercise every day jezebel was in > training for the cat Olympics and when she ran she also jumped Clyde and the > kitty ballet jezebel strainer was a cat named Lee?s Louise did not run very > fast but she still run after jezebel me howling me at winged a give up and > trying to encourage jezebel to run faster when Louise caught up with jezebel > she would biter on the tail and tougher her with her large pot tilapia did > give it up. In a session and that of session this session is now over look at > > It has training sessions, but I am not sure who is training what exactly. > > DWells From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 01:06:44 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:06:44 -0800 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." Message-ID: I find more than two dozen exx. of this phrase (and "...no draws") on the Web and Usenet - all, I believe, from Britain and Ireland. The phrase is said to be at least fifty years old. There are about three hits for the variant, "Red shoes, no drawers." The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, no cattle." JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 01:32:56 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 20:32:56 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal novitiate" mean? -Wilson On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as > in its primary citation). > And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 > years. > > But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, > or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. > > JL > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must > not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on > jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a > 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an > entry of its own there.) > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Hypercorrectional orthography : >> >> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >> knight's quest." >> >> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM Wed Mar 30 01:39:51 2005 From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:39:51 -0600 Subject: "Enticing the bilingual consumer" Message-ID: Public release date: 29-Mar-2005 Contact: Carrie Olivia Adams coa at press.uchicago.edu 773-834-0386 University of Chicago Press Journals Enticing the bilingual consumer Interject an English word into the Spanish ad Even though 20% of American consumers consider themselves bilingual, advertisers have had little idea of how best to reach this growing sector of the U.S. population. A recent study of "code-switching" by David Luna (Baruch College) and Laura Peracchio (University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee), published in the March 2005 issue of the Journal of Consumer Research, provides some provoking ideas. "Code-switching" is the academic term for changing horses in mid-sentence--or, in this instance, interjecting an English word into a Spanish sentence. Because English is seen as the "dominant" language, placing an English word into a Spanish ad is more persuasive than the reverse--placing a Spanish word into an ad written primarily in English. Why should this be so? Linguists have long understood that language signals social identity. Explaining that "code-switching activates language-specific associations," the authors observe that minority languages are perceived to have less prestige than majority languages. Thus advertisers who switched from a majority to a minority language (typically English to Spanish) "elicited a significantly higher proportion of negative thoughts" and lower product evaluations than advertisers who made the switch in reverse. Luna and Peracchio's study is significant for raising these ideas and invites further research into consumer attitudes toward majority and minority language use, attitudes which become increasingly complex as perceptions of minority languages shift. ### Advertising to Bilingual Consumers: The Impact of Code-Switching on Persuasion. By DAVID LUNA AND LAURA A. PERACCHIO. ? 2005 by JOURNAL OF CONSUMER RESEARCH, Inc. - Vol. 31 - March 2005 -- Dan Goodman Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/ Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies. John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 02:09:04 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:09:04 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: <74727a8bac359df56551916d5cfbfeae@rcn.com> Message-ID: >Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be >"virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal >novitiate" mean? > >-Wilson Maybe it's a metanalysis of "the virginal novice I..." No, let's not go there. Larry > >On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Jonathan Lighter >>Subject: Re: noviciate >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as >>in its primary citation). >>And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 >>years. >> >>But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, >>or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. >> >>JL >> >>Grant Barrett wrote: >>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Grant Barrett >>Subject: Re: noviciate >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >> >>That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >>not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >>jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >>1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >>entry of its own there.) >> >>Grant Barrett >>gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> >>On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>>Hypercorrectional orthography : >>> >>>2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >>>"Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >>>knight's quest." >>> >>>"Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >>> >>>JL >>> >>>__________________________________________________ >>>Do You Yahoo!? >>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>>http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 02:09:08 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:09:08 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 28, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >> As it happens, it was decades after I read the story before I had >> occasion to ride the subway and, by that time, the effect of the story >> had worn off. So far, the weirdest thing that's happened to me on the >> subway is only this. I once was getting onto a subway car in Boston >> while wearing a UC Davis T-shirt just as about seven people also >> wearing UC Davis T-shirts were getting off. There were frenzied shouts >> of "Hi, Aggie!" and, a second later, we were going our separate ways. >> I >> expect to run across people in Berkeley or UCLA gear, and even random >> people in San Diego, Santa Barbara, etc. gear. But, in Davis gear? No. >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Maybe there was a wine-tasting they were all attending? > > (For some reason, I always have had this strong UC Davis/oenology > association working for me.) > > Larry > Well, that's completely understandable, Larr. Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. -Wilson From douglas at NB.NET Wed Mar 30 02:27:00 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:27:00 -0500 Subject: Pollyanna In-Reply-To: <42492B22.11011.3DD11C8@localhost> Message-ID: >Why, particularly in Pennsylvania, is a type of gift exchange by >drawing lots - another name for which, I have just learned, is >"secret Santa" - called a Pollyanna (in full, "Pollyanna gift >exchange")? Could it possibly be derived from Eleanor Hodgman >Porter's character? Yes, I think it likely, although I don't know that it's certain. DARE has a good entry for this word. Without making a full search, I find (e.g.) in the Danville VA _Bee_, 12 Dec. 1932 (p. 4): <> ("Pollyannas" = "Pollyanna gifts" I suppose). In the novel _Pollyanna_ there was an instance of Pollyanna conveying a gift whose donor had explicitly disavowed it: perhaps "anonymous gift" was originally the idea. Another incident in the book had Pollyanna receiving a useless gift and being told to be glad for it by her positive-thinking father. Alternatively, the "Pollyanna gift exchange" might have been named after some "Pollyanna Society" or so which had such an event: there were apparently clubs or groups with this name pre-1930, named after the Pollyanna in the novel. Pollyanna was of course a naive saccharine irrationally optimistic little girl, now 'immortalized' in the noun "Pollyanna" = "blindly optimistic or irritatingly cheerful person". -- Doug Wilson From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 02:27:30 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 18:27:30 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Believe it or else, "novitiate" appears in dictionaries incl. OED as a synonym of "novice." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: noviciate ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal novitiate" mean? -Wilson On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as > in its primary citation). > And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 > years. > > But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, > or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. > > JL > > Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must > not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on > jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a > 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an > entry of its own there.) > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> Hypercorrectional orthography : >> >> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >> knight's quest." >> >> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >> >> JL >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 02:54:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:54:58 -0500 Subject: "The Projects" (public housing projects) (1939) Message-ID: OED is at "P" and I'd like to know what it has for "Projects." I'd like to add it to my NYC web page. (That should have the 1937 Big Apple song attached sometime soon, before I die.) "Projects" mean "housing projects." Or maybe people live in their science projects? (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("live in the projects") OFFICIALS AT ODDS ON STATE SLUM BILL; Legislative Hearing Reveals Widely Divergent Views on Sum to Be Authorized LABOR FOR $300,000,000 But Other Speakers Urge Caution--Real Estate Groups Oppose Pending Plans Points of Difference Letter From La Guardia Is Read Urges Powers for Zoning Boards Calls 65,000 Tenements "Unfit" A.F.L. Man Hits Realty Groups Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 1939. p. 4 (1 page): In general, they held that under the present plans for the proposed housing projects, the lower-income groups could not afford to live in the projects, and, as a result, the housing program would not help those who needed it most but would, in effect, set up a State-subsidized real estate market which would compete "unfairly" with private industry. NEGROES CHARGE JIM CROWISM IN FEDERAL HOUSING; Only 35 Families Assisted, Leaders Assert. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 28, 1939. p. 4 (1 page): Horace Clayton, director of a Negro research project for the University of CHicago--"Negro families have applied to the housing authority for permission to live in the projects and have not been accepted." PRIEST FEARS 'GHETTO' FOR BLIND VETERANS New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 26, 1950. p. 15 (1 page) : He said the blinded veterans and their families would live in the project apartment building only during a rehabilitation period--perhaps six months or a year--after which the organization would help them go wherever they wished. Killing at Red Hook Houses Makes Many Fear to Go Out By PAUL L. MONTGOMERY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 23, 1970. p. 39 (1 page): The patrolmen say most of the predatory youths are addicts who live in the project. Rising Crime Stirs Fear On the Lower East Side By LESLEY OELSNER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 22, 1971. p. 51 (1 page) : Several Housing Authority policemen, however, and some project tenants as well, say it is just as likely the young addicts who live in the projects with their parents. Graffiti Cleanups a 'Lark' for the Young-; Housing Authority printed a cartoon in its publication as part of the drive against defacement. Transit men envy the authority's success. By ROBERT E. TOMASSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 21, 1974. p. 537 (1 page) : Transit officials speak almost with envy of the jurisdiction the Housing Authority can exercise over the families of offenders who live in the projects. From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 03:20:38 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:20:38 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com Message-ID: I just went to Americandialect.com instead of Americandialect.org, by mistake. Has anyone ever done this? I'm now looking for hot African-American women in my area. :-) (WWW.AMERICANDIALECT.COM) Afro American Women Free to Join. 1000's of pictures & video's of Beautiful Black singles www.BlackPeopleMeet.com Black English Improve speech, diction, writing. Better test scores and grades. www.axorask.com English Accent Reduction Programs for call-centers, BPO, IT Teacher-led; your site or ours www.altalang.com Afro-American Personals Find Fun, Romance, Love and More. Safely & Securely. Meet Someone Now MatchTrust.com Wear Your Pirate Saying Express Yourself With Swashbuckling Slang Tees, Tanks & More www.piratemod.com Chinese Computer Keyboard Large variety of foreign languages Visit The Key Connection www.customkeys.com American Dialect Low Prices & Huge Selection! Register on eBay. www.ebay.com From bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 03:41:58 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:41:58 -0500 Subject: "No Republican or Democratic way to clean the streets" (1934) Message-ID: I thought that I did this phrase, but maybe not. Does Fred Shapiro have it?...FWIW: I just picked up Road Runner today...OK, I'll pay a million dollars for someone to put one song on my website, but it must be done absolutely no later than ten years from now...FWIW: See the bottom of my website (www.barrypopik.com). I'm running for office twelve years ago. Fiorello La Guardia surely said this, but the first citation below is from Samuel Seabury. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) 1,500 BACK SEABURY ON ECONOMY BILL; Long Island Episcopal Laymen Send Demand to Steingut for End of Opposition. BISHOP PROPOSES ACTION Stires Breaks Precedent After Fusion Leader Appeals for Support for LaGuardia. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 23, 1934. p. 2 (1 page) : He (Samuel Seabury--ed.) expressed the belief, however, that the public had begun to realize that the administration of city government was not a matter of partisan politics but of business--"that there is no Democratic or Republican way to clean the streets." Durable Campaigner; Theodore Roosevelt Kupferman New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 22, 1962. p. 22 (1 page) : "As La Guardia used to say, "There's no Democratic or Republican way to sweep the streets." Quotation of the Day New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 27, 1965. p. 39 (1 page) : "I'm running as Lindsay. As Fiorello La Guardia said, there is no Republican way or Democratic Way to clean the streets."--Representative John V. Lindsay at a news conference in Washington. (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Sheboygan Press Thursday, May 27, 1965 Sheboygan, Wisconsin ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS. mountainous.....years Ody AND I have been friends, THE REPUBLICAN party comes from THE botTOm.. ... Newark Advocate Thursday, June 03, 1965 Newark, Ohio ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS." That is so.....be mayor of New York. As a Progressive REPUBLICAN, he knew THE obstacles TO.. ... Great Bend Daily Tribune Thursday, May 27, 1965 Great Bend, Kansas ...is no REPUBLICAN WAY or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS." Pioneer.....Tilonka. Iowa on August 29th. NEW YORK REPUBLICAN Rep. John V. Lindsay saying.. ... Syracuse Herald Journal Sunday, July 03, 1966 Syracuse, New York ...is no REPUBLICAN or Democratic WAY TO CLEAN THE STREETS'1 AND carries his.....THE conclusion that THEre is only one WAY TO protect THE lives of American AND.. (JSTOR) Ambition in Israel: A Comparative Extension of Theory and Data Gerald M. Pomper The Western Political Quarterly > Vol. 28, No. 4 (Dec., 1975), pp. 712-732 Pg. 726: The cliche that "there is no Republican or Democratic way to clean the streets" may not be applicable in America, but it is more true that "there is no Labor or Likus way to carry out policy determined in Kerusalem." From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 03:43:06 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:43:06 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 10:20 PM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Americandialect.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Black English > Improve speech, diction, writing. Better test scores and grades. > www.axorask.com > From www.axorask.com: "Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin? to'?? -Wilson Gray From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 03:55:10 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 22:55:10 -0500 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Believe it or else, "novitiate" appears in dictionaries incl. OED as a > synonym of "novice." > > JL > Hmh. Must be some kind of weird, Protestant usage. ;-) -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: noviciate > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Are you sure about the intended meaning, Jon? Shouldn't the reading be > "virginal novice"? What could "virginal noviciate" or even "virginal > novitiate" mean? > > -Wilson > > On Mar 29, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: noviciate >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> Actually, OED shows "noviciate" as one spelling since the 1500s ( as >> in its primary citation). >> And the word does have a needless history in this sense going back 250 >> years. >> >> But I still think the spelling here is hypercorrectional orthography, >> or orthographical hypercorrection, as the case may be. >> >> JL >> >> Grant Barrett wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Grant Barrett >> Subject: Re: noviciate >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> That reminds me of the term "jargonese": the word "jargon" alone must >> not sound bafflegabby enough to some people. No hits yet on >> jargonesespeak, though. (FYI, "jargonese" shows up in OED online in a >> 1985 quote from the London Times at "daysack" but does not yet have an >> entry of its own there.) >> >> Grant Barrett >> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org >> >> On Mar 29, 2005, at 13:58, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> Hypercorrectional orthography : >>> >>> 2002 Michael C. C. Adams _Echoes of War_ (Lexington: U. P. of Ky.) 2 >>> "Luke Skywalker is the virginal noviciate on his first and most pure >>> knight's quest." >>> >>> "Most pure" disimpresses me as well. >>> >>> JL >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! >> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 30 04:13:17 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:13:17 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: <200503291706.1dgrFs1873NZFpQ0@mx-a065b28.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >no cattle." Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" That dawg won't hunt, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 30 04:21:29 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:21:29 -0500 Subject: "The Projects" (public housing projects) (1939) In-Reply-To: <8C702EAFE635331-C14-B164@mblk-d37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2005, at 21:54, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > OED is at "P" and I'd like to know what it has for "Projects." I'd > like to add it to my NYC web page. (That should have the 1937 Big > Apple song attached sometime soon, before I die.) Well, you can stop your bellyaching. The song is on your site now. I take it you did not de-stress yourself by getting drunk at Purim and traipsing around dressed like King Ahashverosh. Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 04:34:40 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:34:40 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:13 PM -0500 3/29/05, Rex W. Stocklin wrote: >At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >>no cattle." > >Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" > Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. Larry From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Wed Mar 30 05:18:51 2005 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:18:51 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." Message-ID: Any relationship to the Scottish phrase, frequently said about a stereotypical Edinburgh resident who is all perfect in his/her outside image but who is poverty-stricken and probably eating cat food: "Fur coat 'n nae knickers"? Paul Johnston ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > At 11:13 PM -0500 3/29/05, Rex W. Stocklin wrote: > >At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >>The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, > >>no cattle." > > > >Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" > > > Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" > version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. > > Larry From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Mar 30 05:27:50 2005 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2005 23:27:50 -0600 Subject: Americandialect.com Message-ID: >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >Sent: Tue 3/29/2005 9:43 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Americandialect.com > > From www.axorask.com: > >"Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin' >to'"? > >-Wilson Gray Bubba Gump said "srimps" instead of shrimp or skrimp (and that seems to be pretty accurate for the Bayou la Batre region, from what I've seen). I've heard "shtraight" much more than "skraight" (and not only from blacks, but it seems more common there than in caucasian, although I heard one of the announcers on the Lady Vols game on ESPN use it earlier tonight). And this white boy says "fixin' to" all the time. From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Wed Mar 30 05:44:48 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:44:48 -0500 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: <200503292034.1dguUL3bU3NZFpA0@mx-a065a05.pas.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 11:34 PM -0500 3/29/05, Laurence Horn wrote: >Well, the google score is 21500-4590 in favor of the "All hat" >version, but those 4590 big-hatters can't be entirely pooh-poohed. > >Larry Well, this is what I've got to say about the veracity of a Google search. If you search for, say, "poo-pooed", you'll get a batch of citations. I turned up 11,900 English pages. Almost to a one the authors MEANT "pooh-poohed", but in their haste, ignorance or whatever they got it wrong. No such official word exists, though it could be an alternate spelling of the child's scatological term for poop. Either poo-poo, poopoo or poo poo, I dunno. This is not my field of study. I GUESS the ultimate arbitration would be how many of those "hatted" websites for either side were Texan. They would be the one's toward which I'd lean. ;-) Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 06:11:19 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:11:19 -0500 Subject: Americandialect.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 12:27 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill" > Subject: Re: Americandialect.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > =20 > >> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray >> Sent: Tue 3/29/2005 9:43 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Americandialect.com >> >> From www.axorask.com: >> >> "Why do many Blacks say 'finna, skrimps, ax, skraight,' and 'fixin' >> to'"? >> >> -Wilson Gray > > Bubba Gump said "srimps" instead of shrimp or skrimp (and that seems > to = > be pretty accurate for the Bayou la Batre region, from what I've > seen). = > I've heard "shtraight" much more than "skraight" (and not only from = > blacks, but it seems more common there than in caucasian, although I = > heard one of the announcers on the Lady Vols game on ESPN use it > earlier = > tonight). And this white boy says "fixin' to" all the time. > Yeah, "Fixin' to" is a fine old general Southernism. I have a friend who says "skreek, skraighk," etc. for "street, straight," etc. The funny thing is that he doesn't believe that he talks like that. If i say anything to him about it, he says, "Man, I don't say no 'skreek'! I say 'street'!" And he does, *then.* But, of course, he always does say "skreek," as long as he's not monitoring. Until you call his attention to it. Which causes him to monitor. I've tried getting him on tape. Unfortunately, that also causes him to monitor. -Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Mar 30 07:32:55 2005 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:32:55 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <4132667de30a70e55c97b0300ee00867@rcn.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two > things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and > fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? Jesse Sheidlower OED From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Mar 30 09:23:28 2005 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:23:28 +0100 Subject: Pollyanna In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050329210753.02fea150@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas Wilson wrote: > In the novel _Pollyanna_ there was an instance of Pollyanna conveying > a gift whose donor had explicitly disavowed it: perhaps "anonymous > gift" was originally the idea. Another incident in the book had > Pollyanna receiving a useless gift and being told to be glad for it by > her positive-thinking father. Alternatively, the "Pollyanna gift > exchange" might have been named after some "Pollyanna Society" or so > which had such an event: there were apparently clubs or groups with > this name pre-1930, named after the Pollyanna in the novel. Pollyanna > was of course a naive saccharine irrationally optimistic little girl, > now 'immortalized' in the noun "Pollyanna" = "blindly optimistic or > irritatingly cheerful person". Many thanks for those leads. Further delving in newspaperarchive.com turns up lots of references to Pollyanna(s) clubs/societies from about 1916 onwards, always associated with churches, especially the Church of Christ, the Lutheran Church and the Baptist Church, in various states. Their function seems from context to have been social and to entertain at gatherings. A search on Google shows that such clubs still exist in some places. There is one further example that gives a clue to their function: 1922 Nebraska State Journal (Lincoln, Nebraska) 9 July B3/4 A group of Pollyannas met Friday morning from 10 to 1 o'clock at the home of Ruth Barnard for a shower in honor of Miss Ola Kallenberger who is soon to become the bride of Charles Spacht. Two hours were spent pleasantly with games, during which Miss Kallenberger was showered with a large assortment of towels, holders and recipes. I can find nothing that suggests why they should have been so named, though the absence of references before 1916 may indicate they were named in direct reference to the Pollyanna stories, the first one of which was published in 1913. Presumably, the reference is to the "glad game" of the book, in which Pollyanna tries to find cause for happiness in the most disastrous situations. Any further information anyone can turn up will be most welcome! -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: Web: From zhangyx106 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 10:04:29 2005 From: zhangyx106 at YAHOO.COM (Yan Zhang) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 02:04:29 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President??s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Mar 30 10:41:16 2005 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) Message-ID: OT: Thanks to Grant Barrett and Orion Montoya for their help in digitizing the 1937 "Big Apple" song. My website had about 3,400 hits yesterday. ... ... Tuesday's Daily News headline was "BLASTS FROM PAST." Tuesday's Metro headline was "BLAST FROM PAST." Both were about testimony in the Michael Jackson trial. I took a look and the second paper's headline and mistaken thought that I'd already picked it up and read it. ... I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film AMERICAN GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in the OED. ... ... ... (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ... Display Ad 9 -- No Title Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 (1 page) ... meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person in The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies of his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that have sold a million copies or more! (SEARS ad--ed.) From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 11:54:03 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:54:03 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Malapropism" In-Reply-To: <1a5.3444a91a.2f7bdc4c@aol.com> Message-ID: malapropism (OED3 1830 Dec.) 1830 _Amer. Monthly Mag._ Oct. 486 (American Periodical Series) What a world the man must live in, if the other malapropisms of this ill-assorted planet strike him with similar impressions! Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 12:36:59 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:36:59 -0800 Subject: "Red hat, no drawers." In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Have heard both. Cf. (from _The Maltese Falcon_) "The cheaper the crook, the flashier the patter." JL "Rex W. Stocklin" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Rex W. Stocklin" Subject: Re: "Red hat, no drawers." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 5:06 PM -0800 3/29/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The former should not be confused with the Texas aphorism, "Big hat, >no cattle." Excuse the butt-in, but I think the phrase is "All hat and no cattle" That dawg won't hunt, Rex Stocklin Fishers, IN --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 12:46:26 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:46:26 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President??s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU Wed Mar 30 13:33:48 2005 From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:33:48 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <20050330124626.22368.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As a kid I always wondered why we said Hawaii for the Hawaiian Islands, but not Phillipi for the Phillipine Islands. sally o. donlon From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET Thu Mar 31 02:18:29 2005 From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:18:29 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons into lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take my troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, Always feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." Did you get anything about the author? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > 1910 version of "Shine" > > > > VERSE > > When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > > But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > > Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > > Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > > And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > > When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > > But I don't care a bit. > > Here's how I figure it: > > > > CHORUS > > > > Well, just because my hair is curly, > > And just because my teeth is pearly, > > Just because I always wears a smile, > > Likes to dress up in the latest style. > > Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > > Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > > Just because my color's shady, > > Slightly different, maybe. > > That is why they call me shine. > > > On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> Dear Mr. Gray: >> >> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >> also a >> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >> more than >> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was big >> in my >> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >> listening to >> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >> ocurred >> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >> from a >> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >> compliments. >> >> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >> matters. Do >> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >> if my >> impression is on or off target? >> >> Will appreciate your comments. >> >> Bob Fitzke >> > From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 14:46:32 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:46:32 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film AMERICAN >GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in the OED. >... >Display Ad 9 -- No Title >Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 (1 >page) >... >meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person in >The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies of >his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that have >sold a million copies or more! >(SEARS ad--ed.) Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast from the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: ----- http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in mid-1958, Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier every day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was the creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and "submarine race watching." ----- http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible for Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also Rick who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce oldies on Murray?s WINS show. ----- There's a clip on of Murray the K saying, "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a 1961 album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": . --Ben Zimmer From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 14:58:57 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800 Subject: hair band Message-ID: This kind of hair band is missing from OED : 1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than the typical glam stuff. Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 14:58:48 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:58:48 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: sally o. donlon wrote: >As a kid I always wondered why we said Hawaii for the Hawaiian Islands, >but not Phillipi for the Phillipine Islands. Sally's youthful attempt to apply her understanding of the 'rules' of English helps to expose some layers of complexity beyond the simple accuracy of Jonathan Lighter's >Short for "the Philippine Islands." Place names imposed by colonial 'powers' are a curious mixture of 'native' names -The Hawaiian islands,(as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) named after the 'big island' of Hawai'i. (if this approach had been used for what are now the Phillipines, then the country might now be the Luzon Islands, or simply, Luzon.) And non-native names: -The Phillipine Islands, named by Spanish imperialists as las Islas Filipinas, after Felipe II, King of Spain. The English, who have an interesting habit of anglicizing some foreign personal or place names, but not others), in this case (I believe) already had 'Phillip' as the English equivalent of Felipe, so these islands came to be anglicized as the 'Phillipine Islands', a form which generally requires the definite article, because of its plural structure and I suppose, the fact that one could be referring to several of the thousands of Phillipine Islands, while not intending to refer to the whole shebang, if one said 'Phillipine Islands,' omitting the definite article. Note that Filipino/a people, even in anglophone countries like the USA, insist on using the Spanish-derived term to refer to themselves, rather that something anglicized,like 'Phillipino'. If the English had named the Phillipines after a Phillip of their own, they might have done the same thing (i.e., the Phillipine Islands, or perhaps the Phillipian Islands), but they might also have chosen something like 'Phillipsland'. Naming after kings has been a problem for the English (and other Europeans), since kings go by first names, and it doesn't sound right to say the Phillip Islands, the way it does to say 'the Cook Islands' (after Cap. Cook). So there seems to be a rule hanging around somewhere concerning how to transform first names, vs. last names, in such situations. Michael McKernan From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:15:45 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:15:45 -0500 Subject: hair band Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This kind of hair band is missing from OED : > >1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had >the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than >the typical glam stuff. > >Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully >styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... ----- St. Petersburg Times, June 17, 1991, p. 1D Are hard rockers going soft, wimping out? Nah. Don't expect crunching power chords to vanish any time this millennium. But the better groups are breaking from the pack, looking to expand the perception of what a pop-metal "hair band" can do, plumbing new dynamics for the style. ----- Boston Globe, Nov 3, 1991, p. 77 Devotees can argue forever about these genre differences, or for that matter about how to separate metal and hard rock - as in, say, AC/DC, Skid Row and Aerosmith. "The line is very hazy between hard rock and heavy metal," said Aerosmith's Joe Perry before a recent Boston show. "But it all comes down to hard rock to me. "Whatever you want to call it, I think there's a backlash against the hair bands," Perry said. ----- St. Petersburg Times, Dec 6, 1991, p. 21 Rhino's Never Mind the Mainstream (66:42), even though the tie-in with MTV's alternative program 120 Minutes comes off as a bit cheesy, effectively chronicles rock's fringe of recent years. It also serves as a good primer if you've locked your dial on rock radio for the last half-decade and listened to all those hair bands. ----- --Ben Zimmer From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:25:08 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:25:08 -0500 Subject: hair band Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:15:45 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:58:57 -0800, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > >>This kind of hair band is missing from OED : >> >>1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : Pantera...had >>the image of a "hair band" but their music was still much heavier than >>the typical glam stuff. >> >>Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >>popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and carefully >>styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. > >Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair >bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... Whoops, make that 1989 on Usenet: ----- I find the Radar Love cover to be pointless. I find "when the children cry" to be retched, cliche, drivel. Chock up another cliche, money making, hair band. rec.music.misc - Oct 25 1989, 10:15 pm by Aaron Kremer ----- The RUMORS I heard at the "hair band" record stores in Seattle were that Nancy and Ann kicked him out due to personality conflicts. rec.music.misc - Nov 2 1989, 9:23 pm by Peter Craft ----- I used to own the last two Heart tapes but trashed them because they have just become another hair band which is sad. rec.music.misc - Nov 6 1989, 10:52 am by send ----- --Ben Zimmer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:26:54 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:26:54 -0500 Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis Message-ID: Our topic from last week, supporting Ben Zimmer's nominee... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:03:59 -0500 From: Wordsmith To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis antiphrasis (an-TIF-ruh-sis) noun The humorous or ironic use of a word or a phrase in a sense opposite of its usual meaning. For example: "Brutus is an honorable man." -Antony in Julius Caesar (Shakespeare) [From Late Latin, from Greek antiphrazein (to express by the opposite), from anti- + phrazein (to speak).] Today's word in Visual Thesaurus: http://visualthesaurus.com/?w1=antiphrasis "He was murmuring something between lips decorated by a little mustache, which gave a sarcastic touch to his clerk-like expression, a mustache folded over his mouth like an antiphrasis, which tinged whatever he said with maliciousness, no matter how solemn it was." Edoardo Albinati & John Satriano; Story Written on a Motorcycle; Antioch Review (Yellow Springs, Ohio); Summer 1992. --- end forwarded text From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:29:08 2005 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:29:08 -0800 Subject: Antedating of "Malapropism" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 3:54 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: > malapropism (OED3 1830 Dec.) > > 1830 _Amer. Monthly Mag._ Oct. 486 (American Periodical Series) > What a world the man must live in, if the other malapropisms of this > ill-assorted planet strike him with similar impressions! is this "malapropism" in the sense 'something that is malapropos, socially inappropriate'? arnold From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:33:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:33:29 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <20050330073255.GA3707@panix.com> Message-ID: At 2:32 AM -0500 3/30/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier constructions considered oxymoronic? L From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Mar 30 15:52:42 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: I believe that the lyrics to "Shine" were written by Andy Razaf. If so, there is a biography of him: Black and Blue: The Life and Lyrics of Andy Razaf, by Barry Singer; foreword by Bobby Short. New York: Toronto & New York: Schirmer Books; Maxwell Macmillan Canada; Maxwell Macmillan International, c1992. Razaf was the child of an black American woman and a Madagascarene nobleman -- this sounds like a story his public relations guy thought up after kicking the gong around, but it is verifiable; he was raised in the U. S. There is also a biographical sketch in the American National Biography, and I dare say one in the Grove Dictionary of Jazz and/or the Grove Dictionary of American Music. He wrote the lyrics to a number of Fats Waller's songs. The version of Shine I know is the one Louis Armstrong made in the 1920s. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Fitzke Date: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:14 pm Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > Dear Mr. Gray: > > I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. > I'm also a > long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something > more than > 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was > big in my > late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > listening to > it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The > thought ocurred > that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it > appears from a > casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a > collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > compliments. > You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > matters. Do > you happen to know anything about the background behind this song > or if my > impression is on or off target? > > Will appreciate your comments. > > Bob Fitzke > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 16:05:16 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:05:16 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for 'Netherlands.' In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere Eidgenossenschaft, die T?rkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why English and German use articles in front of country names, some of which are optional, but German has so many more than English. Fritz Juengling >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President? s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 16:17:31 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:17:31 -0800 Subject: noviciate In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Look up "novitiate" on Visual Thesaurus and discover the hip spelling "noviciate." JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Fwd: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our topic from last week, supporting Ben Zimmer's nominee... L --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:03:59 -0500 From: Wordsmith To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--antiphrasis antiphrasis (an-TIF-ruh-sis) noun The humorous or ironic use of a word or a phrase in a sense opposite of its usual meaning. For example: "Brutus is an honorable man." -Antony in Julius Caesar (Shakespeare) [From Late Latin, from Greek antiphrazein (to express by the opposite), from anti- + phrazein (to speak).] Today's word in Visual Thesaurus: http://visualthesaurus.com/?w1=antiphrasis "He was murmuring something between lips decorated by a little mustache, which gave a sarcastic touch to his clerk-like expression, a mustache folded over his mouth like an antiphrasis, which tinged whatever he said with maliciousness, no matter how solemn it was." Edoardo Albinati & John Satriano; Story Written on a Motorcycle; Antioch Review (Yellow Springs, Ohio); Summer 1992. --- end forwarded text --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 16:18:00 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:18:00 -0500 Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' Message-ID: I'd greatly appreciate some help with the terms 'match hunt', 'side hunt', and the probably related form, 'hunting match'. In each case, I'm referring to specific uses of these terms to mean a particular form of animal-hunting activity, where two teams (or, I suppose, two individuals) compete based on their hunting success ('bagged' quarry) over a set period of time (and perhaps, area). AFAIK, 'match hunt' and 'side hunt' are Americanisms. OTOH, 'hunting match' may have a quite ancient history in English, with references (in English) going back to descriptions of Persian, Greek and Roman practices, Mostly, however, 'hunting match' seems to have been used in the UK in connection with large-scale, elite or nobility social/political hunting events, including some infamously bogus 'hunting matches' uses to lure enemies into gatherings where they might be captured, killed, or otherwise manipulated. At the moment, I don't have access to OED or HDAS or any of the best standard references, so any information from such sources would be a great help. In order to avoid wasting people's time, allow me to provide more details (than most of you want) on this topic: European hunting, of course, was at various times and places a prerogative of the elite/nobility, resulting in the criminalization of hunting by the lower classes as 'poaching.' (A number of people convicted of 'poaching' were transported to the colonies--both North America and Australia, I believe.) So it seems reasonable to assume that 'match hunts' in the USA may have been to a certain extent celebrations of liberation from the tyranny of European laws restricting hunting to the elite. And they may have mimicked, to a certain extent the hunting matches of the European elites. But researching such a possible connection has so far been quite difficult. Any assistance or suggestions would be much appreciated. Again AFAIK, USA match/side hunts were conducted afoot (rather than on horseback, like 'foxhunting'), nor did they involve dogs, nor did the entire hunt chase a single fox, rabbit, or other quarry (also different from foxhunting). Instead, each hunter scored points independently on his kills, which were then added to his team's score, to determine which side won. Based on my research, 'match hunt' was a much more common usage than 'side hunt', but 'side hunt' was used in at least some areas around 1900 (with the supposed derivation of 'hunting by sides' i.e., teams). The Audubon Society, in one of its origin stories, cites 'side hunts' as being the impetus for the now nationwide and annually-scheduled 'bird counts,' which were begun on a small scale in 1900 in an attempt to eliminate the 'senseless' slaughter of birds (and other wildlife) by a 'Christmas side hunt' competition. Many match or side hunts do appear to have been 'senseless slaughter', with all kinds of animals being killed, ranging from songbirds to bison, usually in a system where a varying number of points were allotted to each different species, for scoring purposes. Some of these hunts had a perhaps 'redeeming social value': rat hunts, and in some cases, rabbit hunts, were targetted at perceived pests. Other match hunts went for anything that breathed and was big enough to shoot. Adding to the 'senseless waste,' in many cases, the 'game' from many such hunts was not eaten (even if edible and choice), although there was usually a celebratory meal following the event (paid for and served by the losers, to the winners). Googlers beware: it's hard to eliminate phrases like 'the punishment did not match Hunt's crime' and 'fearing a fire, we sent the children on a match hunt all around the house...' Also, sports teams are sometimes reported as 'hunting matches' with certain rivals, etc. Don't be surprised if you and I match hunts. Really extraneous details, for the addicted: Match or side hunts were generaly distinct from 'ring hunts' (which refers to a hunting strategy of trying to surround a large area with hunters, who then drive the game into a small, roughly circulur kill zone), but it's possible that there were some connections, since ring hunts required at least a (singular) team, or even a team of 'beaters' and a (usually smaller) team of shooters. There are reports of this type of hunting sometimes being practiced by Native Americans. When Euros tried it, the references I've seen described poor discipline and large holes in the 'ring' which allowed most or all of the game to escape. There were also 'cross-fire' problems when the ring got small enough that the animals were within range. Once again, any help with the history/derivation of these specific usages would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 16:19:13 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:19:13 -0800 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Yes, I've heard such phrases so described - and by the usual oxymorons. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At 2:32 AM -0500 3/30/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier constructions considered oxymoronic? L --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 16:28:58 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:28:58 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: <200503301533.j2UFXS7V000767@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > > > Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier > constructions considered oxymoronic? Certainly expressions like "powerhouse Division II football team" are commonly used in sports. Like "ace of the Colorado Rockies pitching staff." I should note, though, that "jumbo shrimp," which is similar to "large mouse," is considered to be a classic oxymoron. (I nominate "moderate Republican" as a new classic oxymoron.) Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Wed Mar 30 17:01:02 2005 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:01:02 -0500 Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang Message-ID: I helped someone at San Francisco University High School with an article on slang for their parents' newsletter. You might be interested in the slang list put together by the students and the writer. I've included all of their terms, even though many are not new. "Sweet, Tight and Hella Stupid" by Ava Swartz, SFUHS Update (San Francisco), Mar.-Apr. 2005, p. 2 ana--anorexic bootsy--smelly bunk--a situation, object, or person that another finds objectionable burn--put down, to be insulted; a socially degrading situation butchers--which, according to Richard Cole, is British slang for ?look? ? as in, ?Come have a butchers at this.? chill--(adjective) cool, in a relaxed way. Chill = easy going crazy--the adverb, meaning ?very? cutty--shady dime--used to describe a member of the opposite sex as a ?perfect ten? dude--friend fit--attractive or beautiful fly--fine, attractive fonkay--funky. ?You smell fonkay? fresh--tight gnarley--awesome or cool. ?A gnarley wave? hella--very, a superlative (Northern Ca) hella--tight really cool hooking up--flirting with, maybe even kissing (always implies more than that, but it?s never true) hyphy--to become overly excited (southern U.S. derivative: crunk) Ill--to be extremely pleasing (?off the chain?; sick; tight) ?ill? means sort of awesome Janky--Weird, smelly mad wicked = tight moded--beaten obese -- really good or really big. ?Obese homework? rey--important shizzle--for sure sick--tight sketchy--shady, of dubious moral quality solid--decent, good work special--odd, interesting (but not very) spittin? game--flirting stupid--very cool, popular that?s clutch--that?s tight that?s washed--(unable to define articulately; something that is not good) tight--cool, good, sweet washed--bad we?re gonna peace them--we?re leaving or ditching them word--yeah, I concur wicked--hella (East Coast) .... Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 18:37:29 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:29 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:28 AM -0500 3/30/05, Fred Shapiro wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. >> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? >> > >> Are "large mouse", "small elephant", and similar relativized modifier >> constructions considered oxymoronic? > >Certainly expressions like "powerhouse Division II football team" are >commonly used in sports. Like "ace of the Colorado Rockies pitching >staff." > >I should note, though, that "jumbo shrimp," which is similar to "large >mouse," is considered to be a classic oxymoron. I'm not sure they're entirely similar, since "large" is an unmarked adjective, so it's easier to read "large mouse", or "large shrimp" for that matter, as 'relatively large...' than it is to read "jumbo shrimp" as 'relatively jumbo'. I'd think any sort of item X that has size could be described as a large X without oxymoronicity if it's (significantly?) larger than the average X. > >(I nominate "moderate Republican" as a new classic oxymoron.) > Well, there's been a sighting of one, but it's Sen. Arnold Vinick (R-Cal.), the Republican nominee played by Alan Alda on The West Wing, and I guess he doesn't count. sigh. L From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 18:51:14 2005 From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:51:14 -0800 Subject: Query In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: I came across a phrase in today's local paper. Two young people were shot, while driving in a car, by a person in a passing car. The investigating officer called it a "rolling drive-by shooting." I Googled it and found only "drive-by shooting." Brenda Lester Macon, GA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 20:36:42 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:36:42 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons > into > lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take > my > troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, > Always > feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." > > Did you get anything about the author? > Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, Bing Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. *Really* weird, if true. -Wilson Gray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> 1910 version of "Shine" >>> >>> VERSE >>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>> But I don't care a bit. >>> Here's how I figure it: >>> >>> CHORUS >>> >>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>> Just because my color's shady, >>> Slightly different, maybe. >>> That is why they call me shine. >> >> >> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>> >>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>> also a >>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>> more than >>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>> big >>> in my >>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>> listening to >>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >>> ocurred >>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >>> from a >>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>> compliments. >>> >>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>> matters. Do >>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >>> if my >>> impression is on or off target? >>> >>> Will appreciate your comments. >>> >>> Bob Fitzke >>> >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 20:43:00 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:43:00 -0500 Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well worth the read, IMO. -Wilson On Mar 30, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Michael McKernan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: 'Match Hunt' 'Side Hunt' 'Hunting Match' > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I'd greatly appreciate some help with the terms 'match hunt', 'side > hunt', > and the probably related form, 'hunting match'. > > In each case, I'm referring to specific uses of these terms to mean a > particular form of animal-hunting activity, where two teams (or, I > suppose, two individuals) compete based on their hunting success > ('bagged' > quarry) over a set period of time (and perhaps, area). > > AFAIK, 'match hunt' and 'side hunt' are Americanisms. > > OTOH, 'hunting match' may have a quite ancient history in English, with > references (in English) going back to descriptions of Persian, Greek > and > Roman practices, Mostly, however, 'hunting match' seems to have been > used > in the UK in connection with large-scale, elite or nobility > social/political hunting events, including some infamously bogus > 'hunting > matches' uses to lure enemies into gatherings where they might be > captured, > killed, or otherwise manipulated. > > At the moment, I don't have access to OED or HDAS or any of the best > standard references, so any information from such sources would be a > great > help. > > In order to avoid wasting people's time, allow me to provide more > details > (than most of you want) on this topic: > > European hunting, of course, was at various times and places a > prerogative > of the elite/nobility, resulting in the criminalization of hunting by > the > lower classes as 'poaching.' (A number of people convicted of > 'poaching' > were transported to the colonies--both North America and Australia, I > believe.) So it seems reasonable to assume that 'match hunts' in the > USA > may have been to a certain extent celebrations of liberation from the > tyranny of European laws restricting hunting to the elite. And they may > have mimicked, to a certain extent the hunting matches of the European > elites. But researching such a possible connection has so far been > quite > difficult. Any assistance or suggestions would be much appreciated. > > Again AFAIK, USA match/side hunts were conducted afoot (rather than on > horseback, like 'foxhunting'), nor did they involve dogs, nor did the > entire hunt chase a single fox, rabbit, or other quarry (also > different > from foxhunting). Instead, each hunter scored points independently on > his > kills, which were then added to his team's score, to determine which > side > won. > > Based on my research, 'match hunt' was a much more common usage than > 'side > hunt', but 'side hunt' was used in at least some areas around 1900 > (with > the supposed derivation of 'hunting by sides' i.e., teams). The > Audubon > Society, in one of its origin stories, cites 'side hunts' as being the > impetus for the now nationwide and annually-scheduled 'bird counts,' > which > were begun on a small scale in 1900 in an attempt to eliminate the > 'senseless' slaughter of birds (and other wildlife) by a 'Christmas > side > hunt' competition. > > Many match or side hunts do appear to have been 'senseless slaughter', > with > all kinds of animals being killed, ranging from songbirds to bison, > usually > in a system where a varying number of points were allotted to each > different species, for scoring purposes. > > Some of these hunts had a perhaps 'redeeming social value': rat > hunts, and > in some cases, rabbit hunts, were targetted at perceived pests. Other > match hunts went for anything that breathed and was big enough to > shoot. > > Adding to the 'senseless waste,' in many cases, the 'game' from many > such > hunts was not eaten (even if edible and choice), although there was > usually > a celebratory meal following the event (paid for and served by the > losers, > to the winners). > > Googlers beware: it's hard to eliminate phrases like 'the punishment > did > not match Hunt's crime' and 'fearing a fire, we sent the children on a > match hunt all around the house...' Also, sports teams are sometimes > reported as 'hunting matches' with certain rivals, etc. Don't be > surprised > if you and I match hunts. > > Really extraneous details, for the addicted: > > Match or side hunts were generaly distinct from 'ring hunts' (which > refers > to a hunting strategy of trying to surround a large area with hunters, > who > then drive the game into a small, roughly circulur kill zone), but it's > possible that there were some connections, since ring hunts required at > least a (singular) team, or even a team of 'beaters' and a (usually > smaller) team of shooters. There are reports of this type of hunting > sometimes being practiced by Native Americans. When Euros tried it, > the > references I've seen described poor discipline and large holes in the > 'ring' which allowed most or all of the game to escape. There were > also > 'cross-fire' problems when the ring got small enough that the animals > were > within range. > > Once again, any help with the history/derivation of these specific > usages > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > > > Michael McKernan > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 21:17:18 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:17:18 -0800 Subject: "genentic" and "cowicorn" Message-ID: Caption on History Channel Broadband today : "This may have been one of the 1st genentically altered animals. Meet Cowicorn." Maybe 1,200 independent Google hits for "genentic," "genentically," "genenticly." "Cowicorn" was a cow with a single horn in the middle of her forehead. She was created at the University of Maine (it doesn't say when - I mean, it must have been some time in history, right?) by means of a grafting operation in heiferhood. So it's "genentic" rather than genetic. (Laff here.)and JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 21:26:07 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:26:07 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be "The Argentine." Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for 'Netherlands.' In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere Eidgenossenschaft, die T?rkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why English and German use articles in front of country names, some of which are optional, but German has so many more than English. Fritz Juengling >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> Short for "the Philippine Islands." JL Yan Zhang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Yan Zhang Subject: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President? s four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. Yan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Mar 30 21:29:36 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:29:36 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <20050330212607.96242.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:26 PM -0800 3/30/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >"The Argentine." >Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." > >JL and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" >FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING >Subject: Re: "The" Philippines >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >We also have, or have had, The Netherlands (which I think is clear), >The Ukraine, (and as every reader of Victorian colonial exploits >reads), The Sudan, and The Gambia. From my reading, I don't think >the last refers to only the river, but to an area, which has become >the country. I don't think 'The' is obligatory except for >'Netherlands.' >In German, we have 'die Schweiz', which is short for 'die schweizere >Eidgenossenschaft, die T?rkei, der Sudan, (der) Irak, (der) Iran, >die Niederlande, die Ukraine, die Tschechoslowakei, die Tschechei, >der Tschad, die Vereinigten Staaten,and die USA (which is always >plural!). The are certainly others. It has always intrigued me why >English and German use articles in front of country names, some of >which are optional, but German has so many more than English. >Fritz Juengling > >>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 04:46AM >>> >Short for "the Philippine Islands." > >JL > >Yan Zhang wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Yan Zhang >Subject: "The" Philippines >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Hi, >I am a Chinese TESOL teacher. In today's dictation exercise, there >is a sentence "China is the first leg of the President? s >four-nation tour, which also includes Japan, South Korea and the >Philippines." One student asked me why there is a "the" in front of >Philippines, while usually people don't put definite article before >a country name. Could anybody help? Thanks a lot. > >Yan > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From grinchy at GRINCHY.COM Wed Mar 30 21:33:38 2005 From: grinchy at GRINCHY.COM (Erik Hoover) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:33:38 -0500 Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang In-Reply-To: <20050330170105.C74D910DB38@spf6-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Moded was current in LA in the late '70s and early '80s when I was in elementary and middle school. I recall it mostly as a stand-alone expression uttered on seeing another suffer some sort of defeat, "Moded!" Likely it also found use in reflexive expressions of affirmation to the previous example, thusly: "So moded!" I wonder now, what other cultural junk do I have tucked in under the layers of dust? Erik ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- Important: This email message and any attached files contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this information may be subject to legal restriction or sanction. Please notify the sender, by email or telephone, of any unintended recipients and delete the original message without making any copies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Grant Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Grant Barrett > Subject: San Francisco University High School Slang > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I helped someone at San Francisco University High School with an > article on slang for their parents' newsletter. You might be interested > in the slang list put together by the students and the writer. I've > included all of their terms, even though many are not new. > > "Sweet, Tight and Hella Stupid" by Ava Swartz, SFUHS Update (San > Francisco), Mar.-Apr. 2005, p. 2 > > ana--anorexic > > bootsy--smelly > > bunk--a situation, object, or person that another finds objectionable > > burn--put down, to be insulted; a socially degrading situation > > butchers--which, according to Richard Cole, is British slang for ?look? > ? as in, ?Come have a butchers at this.? > > chill--(adjective) cool, in a relaxed way. Chill = easy going > > crazy--the adverb, meaning ?very? > > cutty--shady > > dime--used to describe a member of the opposite sex as a ?perfect ten? > > dude--friend > > fit--attractive or beautiful > > fly--fine, attractive > > fonkay--funky. ?You smell fonkay? > > fresh--tight > > gnarley--awesome or cool. ?A gnarley wave? > > hella--very, a superlative (Northern Ca) > > hella--tight really cool > > hooking up--flirting with, maybe even kissing (always implies more than > that, but it?s never true) > > hyphy--to become overly excited (southern U.S. derivative: crunk) > > Ill--to be extremely pleasing (?off the chain?; sick; tight) ?ill? > means sort of awesome > > Janky--Weird, smelly > > mad wicked = tight > > moded--beaten > > obese -- really good or really big. ?Obese homework? > > rey--important > > shizzle--for sure > > sick--tight > > sketchy--shady, of dubious moral quality > > solid--decent, good work > > special--odd, interesting (but not very) > > spittin? game--flirting > > stupid--very cool, popular > > that?s clutch--that?s tight > > that?s washed--(unable to define articulately; something that is not > good) > > tight--cool, good, sweet > > washed--bad > > we?re gonna peace them--we?re leaving or ditching them > > word--yeah, I concur > > wicked--hella (East Coast) > > .... > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett at worldnewyork.org > From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Mar 30 21:38:30 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:38:30 -0600 Subject: "genentic" and "cowicorn" In-Reply-To: <200503302117.j2ULHJ47002744@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Cowicorn" was a cow with a single horn in the middle of her forehead. She > was created at the University of Maine (it doesn't say when - I mean, it must > have been some time in history, right?) by means of a grafting operation in > heiferhood. This goes back quite a way; if I remember correctly, Willy Ley mentions it in _The Lungfish, the Dodo and the Unicorn_, which appears to have been published in 1952. (I once had a copy, but haven't been able to find it in recent years.) Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------- SIUE Web Mail From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 21:51:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:51:35 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When I lived in Los Angeles, Andy Razaf lived around the corner from me on Country Club Drive, next door to my girl friend's best friend. Nat "King" Cole lived a couple of blocks away, primarily because he wasn't allowed to buy a house in Beverly Hills and this area, the Wilshire District - west of Western Ave, east of West Los Angeles and north of Pico Blvd,, was as close as the colored could get. This was back in the old days, when no amount of yellow could change black into white. (Supposedly, there's a Brazilian saying to the effect that "yellow," i.e. gold, money, "changes black into white.") According to a recent map in the NYT Sunday Travel section, this neighborhood is now Little Korea. In any case, this Madagascarene story is brand-new to me. In the 'Fifties, at least, the story was that Razaf was a full-blooded - whatever that may mean - Ethiopian, according to black publications of the day, e.g. Ebony, Sepia, Our World, etc. -Wilson Gray On Mar 30, 2005, at 10:52 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > I believe that the lyrics to "Shine" were written by Andy Razaf. If > so, there is a biography of him: Black and Blue: The Life and Lyrics of > Andy Razaf, by Barry Singer; foreword by Bobby Short. New York: > Toronto & New York: Schirmer Books; Maxwell Macmillan Canada; Maxwell > Macmillan International, c1992. Razaf was the child of an black > American woman and a Madagascarene nobleman -- this sounds like a story > his public relations guy thought up after kicking the gong around, but > it is verifiable; he was raised in the U. S. There is also a > biographical sketch in the American National Biography, and I dare say > one in the Grove Dictionary of Jazz and/or the Grove Dictionary of > American Music. He wrote the lyrics to a number of Fats Waller's > songs. > > The version of Shine I know is the one Louis Armstrong made in the > 1920s. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Fitzke > Date: Sunday, March 27, 2005 3:14 pm > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >> Dear Mr. Gray: >> >> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >> I'm also a >> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >> more than >> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >> big in my >> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >> listening to >> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >> thought ocurred >> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >> appears from a >> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >> compliments. >> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >> matters. Do >> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >> or if my >> impression is on or off target? >> >> Will appreciate your comments. >> >> Bob Fitzke >> > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 22:12:28 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:12:28 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: >>In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>"The Argentine." >>Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >> >>JL > >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The Gambia came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the French who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for the coast around Banjul). The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, hence Argentina/Argentine). Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in the case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz countries are masculine (patria =fatherland). More and more, I seem to hear the article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las Islas Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would be understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish thought England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was promoted to a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so merry old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' (some do use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender form nowadays. The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was named for the river or vice versa, I don't know. Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, that), and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names such as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that deserts also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... Michael McKernan From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:19:17 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:19:17 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >> AMERICAN >> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >> the OED. >> ... >> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >> (1 >> page) >> ... >> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >> in >> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >> of >> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >> have >> sold a million copies or more! >> (SEARS ad--ed.) > > Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast > from > the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka > "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: > > ----- > http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm > As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in > mid-1958, > Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier > every > day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola > scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was > the > creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and > "submarine > race watching." WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. -Wilson Gray > ----- > http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html > At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; > Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible > for > Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also > Rick > who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce > oldies > on Murray?s WINS show. > ----- > > There's a clip on of Murray the K > saying, > "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast effect> > from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a > 1961 > album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": > . > > > --Ben Zimmer > From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Wed Mar 30 22:26:12 2005 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:26:12 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr Gray can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember except that it was written from the left... Jerome Foster. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Fitzke" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:35:00 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:35:00 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think "The Gambia" has a similar origin. JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>"The Argentine." >>Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >> >>JL > >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The Gambia came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the French who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for the coast around Banjul). The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, hence Argentina/Argentine). Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in the case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz countries are masculine (patria =fatherland). More and more, I seem to hear the article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las Islas Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would be understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish thought England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was promoted to a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so merry old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' (some do use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender form nowadays. The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was named for the river or vice versa, I don't know. Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, that), and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names such as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that deserts also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 22:41:00 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:41:00 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:42:03 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:42:03 -0800 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: "Watching the submarine races" means lounging about on a river bank, lake shore, margin of the sea, etc., engaging in amorous demonstrations while supposedly enjoying unseen competitions between underwater craft. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >> AMERICAN >> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >> the OED. >> ... >> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >> (1 >> page) >> ... >> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >> in >> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >> of >> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >> have >> sold a million copies or more! >> (SEARS ad--ed.) > > Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast > from > the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka > "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick Sklar: > > ----- > http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm > As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in > mid-1958, > Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier > every > day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola > scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was > the > creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and > "submarine > race watching." WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. -Wilson Gray > ----- > http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html > At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; > Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible > for > Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also > Rick > who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce > oldies > on Murray?s WINS show. > ----- > > There's a clip on of Murray the K > saying, > "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast > effect> > from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a > 1961 > album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": > . > > > --Ben Zimmer > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:43:11 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:43:11 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$992f1t@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net> Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:12 PM, Michael McKernan wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael McKernan > Subject: Re: "The" Philippines > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > >>> In the Netherlands one finds "The Hague." There also used to be >>> "The Argentine." >>> Slightly closer to home is "The Yukon." >>> >>> JL >> >> and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" > > I don't know about The Hague, or The Dalles, but I am sure that The > Gambia > came from British occupation of the Gambia River's mouth (Banjul, once > Bathurst), and subsequent colonization of as much of the river banks > upstream as they felt was convenient, and properly sticking to the > French > who colonized Senegal (which totally surrounds The Gambia except for > the > coast around Banjul). > > The Argentine is surely derived from Rio de la Plata (River of Silver, > hence Argentina/Argentine). > > Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country > (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in > the > case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el > Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz > countries > are masculine (patria =fatherland). "patria = fatherland" I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the random, unpredictable names of countries. -Wilson Gray > More and more, I seem to hear the > article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las > Islas > Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would > be > understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish > thought > England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was > promoted to > a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so > merry > old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' > (some do > use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender > form > nowadays. > > The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. > > I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was > named > for the river or vice versa, I don't know. > > Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, > that), > and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly > eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these > disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. > > If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers > require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names > such > as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that > deserts > also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... > > Michael McKernan > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 22:50:12 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:50:12 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the > original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr > Gray > can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember > except that > it was written from the left... > > Jerome Foster. "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's involvement with the CPUSA? -Mr Gray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Fitzke" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >> hearing >> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >> that >> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >> about >> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >> among >> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >> still >> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >> other >> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >> used >> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >> Louis >> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wilson Gray" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --- >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>> into >>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>> take >>>> my >>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>> Always >>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>> >>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>> >>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>> Bing >>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>> *Really* weird, if true. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>> >>>>>> VERSE >>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>> >>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> also a >>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>> more than >>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>> big >>>>>> in my >>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>> listening to >>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>> thought >>>>>> ocurred >>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>> appears >>>>>> from a >>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>> a >>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>> compliments. >>>>>> >>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>> or >>>>>> if my >>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>> >>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM Wed Mar 30 22:51:27 2005 From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:51:27 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think >"The Gambia" has a similar origin. Not necessarily disagreeing with Jonathan, I believe that 'The Yukon Territory' was named for the Yukon River, because this geographic feature was at one time the principal 'gateway' or access to what became the 'Territory.' The Gambia, OTOH, was never a "territory" and geographically, it only consists of land adjacent to the Gambia River and its mouth. If you had shallow-draft gunboats, controlling the mouth of the river meant controlling the river, and the banks as far as the range of your guns. The British were willing to venture ashore a little ways, but not very far, whereas the French colonized all of the land around the river which was not controlled by the British. Let's not forget 'The Congo', which I'd suppose was named for the Congo River, and kept the definite article in at least some of its several partitions and independences. As I understand it, 'The Congo' was a European-contrived location, consisting of a large area with a variety of ethnic groups ('natives'), where each group had a name for themselves and their lands. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Michael McKernan From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:58:28 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:58:28 -0800 Subject: flak Message-ID: This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades old : 1990 Philip H. Melling _Vietnam in American Literature_ (Boston: Twayne) 5 : If the reader is made to experience the life of the soldier, the flak he gets will come from the writer's attempt to convey the impact of the grenade and ricochet, the sudden eruption of a violent event. The primary source of this misinterpretation must be the familar "flak vest / jacket," first issued to bomber crews during WWII but widely used by infantry during and since the Vietnam War. One wonders about "ricochet" as well. JL --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 22:59:35 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:59:35 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 23:14:03 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:14:03 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. Fritz > "patria = fatherland" I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the random, unpredictable names of countries. -Wilson Gray > More and more, I seem to hear the > article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las > Islas > Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would > be > understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish > thought > England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was > promoted to > a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so > merry > old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' > (some do > use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender > form > nowadays. > > The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. > > I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was > named > for the river or vice versa, I don't know. > > Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, > that), > and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though hardly > eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, these > disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. > > If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers > require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names > such > as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that > deserts > also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... > > Michael McKernan > From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Wed Mar 30 23:15:59 2005 From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:15:59 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: Thanks, JL. I think I hit on United States when I discussed German. >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 02:59PM >>> Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 23:23:25 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set > that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. "Where the blue of the night "Meets the gold of the day, "Someone waits for me." For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different platters or not. I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such justification. Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule a rule? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >> Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>> thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>> appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>> or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:51:22 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:51:22 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: Current usage, at www.ukraine.org for example, is "Ukraine" rather than "the Ukraine." "Ukraine" is the official name of the republic. "Ukraine" itself means "border" or "frontier" in Polish and Russian; hence, presumably, the definite article in English. JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks, JL. I think I hit on United States when I discussed German. >>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 03/30/05 02:59PM >>> Relax, Fritz. I missed "the Bronx." And then there's "the United States." JL FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heck, how could I have missed that one!! It's right up the road. BTW, its pronunciation is not the same as the city in Texas. It rhymes with 'pals.' And it always has 'the' in front of it. Fritz >and "The Dalles" (Ore.), not to mention "The Bronx" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:24:43 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:24:43 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Everything I write appears to be written from the left as well, unless I'm doing boustrophedon. Oh, I see. Political left. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the > original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr > Gray > can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember > except that > it was written from the left... > > Jerome Foster. "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's involvement with the CPUSA? -Mr Gray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Fitzke" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Robert Fitzke >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >> hearing >> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >> that >> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >> about >> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >> among >> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >> still >> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >> other >> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >> used >> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >> Louis >> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >> >> Bob >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Wilson Gray" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --- >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>> into >>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>> take >>>> my >>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>> Always >>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>> >>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>> >>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>> Bing >>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>> *Really* weird, if true. >>> >>> -Wilson Gray >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>> >>>>>> VERSE >>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>> >>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> also a >>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>> more than >>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>> big >>>>>> in my >>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>> listening to >>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>> thought >>>>>> ocurred >>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>> appears >>>>>> from a >>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>> a >>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>> compliments. >>>>>> >>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>> or >>>>>> if my >>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>> >>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:39:54 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:39:54 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: To fine-tune this discussion further, the presence of the definite article in place names like "the Yukon," "the Gambia," "the Congo," and perhaps "the Argentine," suggests to me that a nominal final - e.g., "colony" or "territory" - has been elided. This is certainly true of "the Shenandoah," meaning "the Shenandoah Valley." (Noteworthy: I've never noticed the Hudson Valley referred to as "the Hudson" or the Tennessee Valley as "the Tennessee." "The Argentine" may well shorten "the Argentine Republic." The result in each case is describable as a metonym, though the metonymy strikes me as accidental Similarly, "the _Beowulf_" may abbreviate "the Beowulf poem." JL Michael McKernan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Michael McKernan Subject: Re: "The" Philippines ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Lighter wrote: >"The Yukon" is sort for "The Yukon [River] Territory." I should think >"The Gambia" has a similar origin. Not necessarily disagreeing with Jonathan, I believe that 'The Yukon Territory' was named for the Yukon River, because this geographic feature was at one time the principal 'gateway' or access to what became the 'Territory.' The Gambia, OTOH, was never a "territory" and geographically, it only consists of land adjacent to the Gambia River and its mouth. If you had shallow-draft gunboats, controlling the mouth of the river meant controlling the river, and the banks as far as the range of your guns. The British were willing to venture ashore a little ways, but not very far, whereas the French colonized all of the land around the river which was not controlled by the British. Let's not forget 'The Congo', which I'd suppose was named for the Congo River, and kept the definite article in at least some of its several partitions and independences. As I understand it, 'The Congo' was a European-contrived location, consisting of a large area with a variety of ethnic groups ('natives'), where each group had a name for themselves and their lands. Please correct me if I'm wrong! Michael McKernan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Wed Mar 30 23:41:53 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:41:53 -0500 Subject: flak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: flak > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades > old : > > 1990 Philip H. Melling _Vietnam in American Literature_ (Boston: > Twayne) 5 : If the reader is made to experience the life of the > soldier, the flak he gets will come from the writer's attempt to > convey the impact of the grenade and ricochet, the sudden eruption of > a violent event. > > The primary source of this misinterpretation must be the familar "flak > vest / jacket," first issued to bomber crews during WWII but widely > used by infantry during and since the Vietnam War. > > One wonders about "ricochet" as well. > > JL > Is this Twayne the same Twayne that was a pioneer in publishing sf/stf - are you old enough to remember the battles between the sf'ers (science-fictioners) and the stf'ers (scientifictioners) - in hard-cover? -Wilson > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! > From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Mar 30 23:54:52 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:54:52 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: I learned the "or not" "rule" as a stylistic recommendation rather than a prescriptive grammatical pronouncement. It might have been in one of Theodore Bernstein's books back in the mid '60s. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Robert Fitzke > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > hearing > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set > that > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > about > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > among > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > still > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > other > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I > used > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with > Louis > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > Bob That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. "Where the blue of the night "Meets the gold of the day, "Someone waits for me." For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different platters or not. I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such justification. Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule a rule? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>> into >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always take >>> my >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>> Always >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>> >>> Did you get anything about the author? >>> >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >> Bing >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >> *Really* weird, if true. >> >> -Wilson Gray >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>> >>>>> VERSE >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>> >>>>> CHORUS >>>>> >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>> >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. I'm >>>>> also a >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>> more than >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>> big >>>>> in my >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>> listening to >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>> thought >>>>> ocurred >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>> appears >>>>> from a >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken a >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>> compliments. >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>> matters. Do >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>> or >>>>> if my >>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>> >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>> >>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Mar 31 00:04:09 2005 From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:04:09 +0000 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Thu Mar 31 00:15:00 2005 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:15:00 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit Message-ID: Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements From jparish at SIUE.EDU Thu Mar 31 01:17:12 2005 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:17:12 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <200503302213.j2UMDAxA018836@mx2.isg.siue.edu> Message-ID: Michael McKernan wrote: > I don't know about The Hague The Dutch name is "'s-Gravenhage", or "Den Haag" for short; literally something like "the Count's Hedge" (i.e., the woods surrounding the principal residence of the Count of Holland). Is there a term for the act of turning a definite (but common) noun phrase into a proper noun? Jim Parish From douglas at NB.NET Thu Mar 31 01:18:24 2005 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:18:24 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... I believe that they should be capitalized always, also, as in "The >Netherlands" and "The Philippines". I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, but I don't believe that it is usual to routinely capitalize "the" in these names. Neither nation's government uses capitalized "the" routinely in its name at its official English-language Web-site: they say respectively <> and << Welcome to the Netherlands>> for example. Of course "the" is capitalized if it is at the beginning of a sentence. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 01:29:15 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <424AFB38.14839.2C30768A@localhost> Message-ID: At 7:17 PM -0600 3/30/05, Jim Parish wrote: >Michael McKernan wrote: >> I don't know about The Hague > >The Dutch name is "'s-Gravenhage", or "Den Haag" for short; literally >something like "the Count's Hedge" (i.e., the woods surrounding the >principal residence of the Count of Holland). Is there a term for the act >of turning a definite (but common) noun phrase into a proper noun? > >Jim Parish Strawson (1952, IIRC) describes such phrases "growing capital letters"; his example was either "the Bank of England" or "the Church of England", I forget which. Larry From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 31 01:52:46 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:52:46 -0800 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That is certainly the earliest I know of. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: colder than a witch's tit ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Mar 31 01:52:47 2005 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 17:52:47 -0800 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: That is certainly the earliest I know of. JL Sam Clements wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Sam Clements Subject: colder than a witch's tit ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? Thanks, Sam Clements --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 02:36:08 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:36:08 -0500 Subject: "Never went to Yale" (1947); Blast from the Past Message-ID: July 1947, Utah (later, Western) Humanities Reveiw, vol. 1, no. 3 Margeurite Ivins Wilson: _Yours Till--: A Study of Children's Autograph Rhymes in Utah_ Pg. 246: I never went to college, I never went to Yale, But I spent my life a-living In the Salt Lake City jail. Yours till Bear Lake has cubs. Pg. 248: Yours till bobby pins get seasick from sitting on too many permanent waves. Yours till butter flies. Yours till table legs wear stockings. Yours till the kitchen sinks. Yours till the sun sets dishes on your table. Pg. 249: Rain on the roof, Reminds me of you, Drip, drip, drip. I copied your papers, And I flunked too. Pg. 250: Roses are red, Violets are blue, But I think It's a little P.U. When you are married and have some twins, Call on me for some safety pins. Pg. 252: When you get old, And think you're sweet, Take off your shoes, And smell your feet. Pg. 253: As sure as the grass grows around the stump, You are my darling sugar plum; As sure as the rat runs across the rafter, I hope you get the boy you're after. Cows like cabbage, Pigs like squash, I like you, I do, by gosh. I love you big, I love you mighty, I wish my pajamas, Were close to your nighty. Pg. 254: Now don't get excited, And out of your head, I mean on the clothesline, And not in the bed. Pg. 255: I hope you sit on a tack of success and rise rapidly. Pg. 256: First comes love, Then comes marriage, Then comes Jane With a baby carriage. Pg. 257: Don't go to London, Don't go to France; Stay here in Utah, And give the boys a chance. Butter is butter, Cheese is cheese, What's a kiss, Without a squeeze? Pg. 258: The higher the mountain, The cooler the breeze; The younger the couple, The tighter the squeeze. Poor ink, Poor pen, Can't think, Amen. I'm not a Southern beauty, I'm not an Eastern rose, I'm just a little Western girl, With freckles on her nose. O U Q T, I N V U. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BLAST FROM THE PAST I was away from OCLC WorldCat. (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title:Do the mashed potatoes. Part 1 ; Do the mashed potatoes. Part 2 Author(s):Kendrick, Nat. (Performer - prf); Coleman, King. ; (Performer - prf) Corp Author(s):Swans (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf) Publication:[S.l.] :; Dade Records, Year:1959-1960? Description:1 sound disc (4 min.) :; analog, 45 rpm, mono. ;; 7 in. Language:English Music Type:Popular music Standard No:Publisher: 1804; Dade Contents:(Do the) Mashed potatoes (Part 1) / Rozier (1:55) -- (Do the) Mashed potatoes (Part 2) / Rozier (1:50) SUBJECT(S) Descriptor:Blues (Music) -- 1951-1960. Popular music -- 1951-1960. Note(s):Released on Chess LP-1461 "Murray The K's Blasts From The Past."/ Participants: "King" Coleman, vocalist. Other Titles:Mashed potatoes. Responsibility:Nat Kendrick and The Swans. Material Type:Musical recording (msr); 45 rpm (45s) Document Type:Sound Recording (OCLC WORLDCAT) Title:Murray the K's blasts from the past Author(s):Berry, Chuck. ; (Performer - prf); Lester, Bobby. ; (Performer - prf); Bo Diddley,; 1928- ; (Performer - prf); Kendrick, Nat. ; (Performer - prf); Valens, Ritchie,; 1941-1959. ; (Performer - prf) Corp Author(s):Chantels (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Moonglows (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Flamingos (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Swans (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Fiests (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Orchids (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Moonlighters (Musical group) ; (Performer - prf); Pastels (Jazz vocal group) ; (Performer - prf) Publication:Chicago :; Chess, Year:1961 Description:1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, mono. ;; 12 in. Language:English Music Type:Popular music Standard No:Publisher: LP-1461; Chess Contents:He's gone (The Chantels) -- Sweet little sixteen (Chuck Berry) -- Blue Velvet (Bobby Lester and the Moonglows) -- Bo Diddley (Bo Diddley) -- The vow (The Flamingos) -- Mashed potatoes (Nat Kendrick & the Swans) -- So fine (The Fiestas) -- You're everything to me (The Orchids) -- La bamba (Richie Valens) -- We go together (The Moonglows) -- Sho doo-be doo (i.e. Shoo be-doo be) (The Moonlighters) -- Been so long (The Pastels). SUBJECT(S) Descriptor:Rhythm and blues music. Note(s):Rhythm and blues songs; various artists./ All songs previously released. Other Titles:He's gone.; Sweet little sixteen.; Blue Velvet.; Bo Diddley.; Vow.; Mashed potatoes.; So fine.; You're everything to me.; Bamba.; We go together.; Shoo be-doo be.; Been so long. Material Type:Musical recording (msr); LP recording (lps) Document Type:Sound Recording From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Mar 31 02:41:57 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:41:57 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Spanish tends to use the definite article with the name of any country > > (although that may be somewhat abandoned these days, particularly in > > the > > case of Spain itself). When I lived in Ecuador, we always said 'el > > Ecuador' and 'el Peru', even 'el Argentina' and 'el China', cuz > > countries > > are masculine (patria =fatherland). > > "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray And there is the Russian "motherland" and the English "mother country." --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net > From dave at WILTON.NET Thu Mar 31 02:45:47 2005 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:45:47 -0800 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050330195712.02fed0a0@pop3.nb.net> Message-ID: > >... I believe that they should be capitalized always, also, as in "The > >Netherlands" and "The Philippines". > > I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly, but I don't believe that it > is usual to routinely capitalize "the" in these names. > > Neither nation's government uses capitalized "the" routinely in > its name at > its official English-language Web-site: they say respectively < Philippines>> and << Welcome to the Netherlands>> for example. > > Of course "the" is capitalized if it is at the beginning of a sentence. The US State Department does not capitalize these or other articles in country names, with exceptions of "The Bahamas" and "The Gambia." Diplomats tend to be sticklers about matters or protocol like this; http://www.state.gov/s/inr/rls/4250.htm --Dave Wilton dave at wilton.net http://www.wilton.net From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 02:44:44 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:44:44 -0500 Subject: "Lowells speak only to God" (Harvard & Yale versions, 1918) Message-ID: SUCH NONSENSE! An anthology by Carolyn Wells New York: George H. Doran Company 1918 Pg. 215: There once was a man from Nantucket, Who kept all his cash in a bucket, But his daughter, named Nan, Ran away with a man, And as for the bucket, Nantucket. PRINCETON TIGER (Other version follow--ed.) Pg. 219: ON THE ARISTOCRACY OF HARVARD I come from good old Boston, The home of the bean and the cod; Where the Cabots speak only to Lowells, And the Lowells speak only to God! DR. SAMUEL G. BUSHNELL. ON THE DEMOCRACY OF YALE Here's to the town of New Haven, The home of the truth and the light; Where God speaks to Jones in the very same tones, That he uses with Hadley and Dwight! DEAN JONES. From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 02:55:36 2005 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:55:36 -0500 Subject: hair band In-Reply-To: <200503301515.j2UFFpjK026645@pantheon-po08.its.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > Nexis takes it back to 1991 (makes sense-- that's the year that the "hair > bands" began losing out to the alternative/grunge movement)... > > St. Petersburg Times, June 17, 1991, p. 1D > Are hard rockers going soft, wimping out? Nah. Don't expect crunching > power chords to vanish any time this millennium. But the better groups are > breaking from the pack, looking to expand the perception of what a > pop-metal "hair band" can do, plumbing new dynamics for the style. A search on Westlaw takes it back to 1988, and suggests that "big-hair band" may well have been an earlier variant. I haven't checked Nexis, but I assume Nexis also has hits back to 1988 or earlier for this term. 1988 _Philadelphia Inquirer_ 18 Sept. D1 (Westlaw) Rock-and-roll fans will remember the summer of '88 for the proliferation of big-hair bands on the road. David Lee Roth. Motley Crue. Aerosmith. Guns 'N' Roses. Def Leppard. 1988 _Albany Times Union_ 4 Oct. [article beginning at page C4] (Westlaw) Brytny Fox's first single "Long Way to Love" broke into the Top 100. The Pennsylvania "hair band," who opened for Poison Tuesday night at the Glens Falls Civic Center, also continued to chart with its first album. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:05:47 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:05:47 -0500 Subject: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 2:32 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: Re: MTA (More Trouble Ahead) nicknames > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2005 at 09:09:08PM -0500, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Davis, even in the town of Davis, is known for only two >> things; its Department of Viticulture and Oenology and >> fielding a powerhouse Division II football team. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Surely this is an oxymoron (FSVO "oxymoron")? > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > I think it depends upon whether one has a more-or-less-emotional attachment to an institution that had, until he retired, the winningest coach in the history of Division II football and that, just a couple of years ago, became the winningest school in the history of Division II football, overtaking and surpassing the record formerly held by the vaunted gridiron minions of mighty West Chester (PA) State University. BTW, Davis is just a relatively few miles west along I-80 from Reno, Nevada, "The Biggest Little City in The World." -Wilson From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:14:13 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:14:13 -0500 Subject: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "Watching the submarine races" means lounging about on a river bank, > lake shore, margin of the sea, etc., engaging in amorous > demonstrations while supposedly enjoying unseen competitions between > underwater craft. > > JL > Thanks, Jon. I sorta kinda figured something like doing the same thing at a drive-in movie. But these lost-virginity locations were already ancient history by the '70's. -Wilson > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: "Blasts From the Past" (1962) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> -------- >> >> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:41:16 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> >>> I remember "blast from the past" from Wolfman Jack in the film >>> AMERICAN >>> GRAFFITI. It's at least from 1962. "Blast from the past" is not in >>> the OED. >>> ... >>> Display Ad 9 -- No Title >>> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 19, 1962. p. 10 >>> (1 >>> page) >>> ... >>> meet JIM LOUNSBURY in person >>> Bring the gang...and have the fun of meeting Jim Lounsbury in person >>> in >>> The Fair's record section, second floor. He'll be autographing copies >>> of >>> his great new album, "Blasts from The Past" ($3.98)--all songs that >>> have >>> sold a million copies or more! >>> (SEARS ad--ed.) >> >> Let's not give a Chicago DJ credit for a New York invention! "Blast >> from >> the past" is generally attributed to 1010-WINS DJ Murray Kaufman, aka >> "Murray the K", or the station's assistant program director Rick >> Sklar: >> >> ----- >> http://www.1960sailors.net/05b_Murray_the_K.htm >> As the overnight host of the "Swingin' Soiree," which began in >> mid-1958, >> Murray Kaufman built a large following that readily tuned in earlier >> every >> day after Murray assumed Alan Freed's primetime slot when the payola >> scandals of 1959 caused Freed's sudden fall from grace. Kaufman was >> the >> creative genius who invented both the "blast from the past" and >> "submarine >> race watching." > > WTF *is* a "submarine race"? I first heard this term used by the other > "Little Walter," *the* oldies DJ in the greater Boston area, in 1972. > Walter often played a doo-wop oldie entitled "Submarine Race > [?Watching"?] and also used the term regularly in his patter. I had > come to Boston from California, where both the song and the term were > unknown. Apparently, it was such an old and well-known term in the > Boston area that Walter never felt the need to give the slightest hint > as to its meaning and the words of the song also assumed prior > knowledge of the meaning of the phrase. > > -Wilson Gray > >> ----- >> http://musicradio.computer.net/Sklar.html >> At WINS Rick also met and worked with another legendary disc jockey; >> Murray "the K" Kaufman. In fact, it was Rick Sklar who was responsible >> for >> Murray Kaufman picking up the name "Murray the K". And, it was also >> Rick >> who coined the phrase "a blast from the past" as a way to introduce >> oldies >> on Murray?s WINS show. >> ----- >> >> There's a clip on of Murray the K >> saying, >> "This is Murray the K on the Swingin' Soiree with a blast > effect> >> from the past..." Don't know what year that's from, but there was a >> 1961 >> album of oldies called "Murray the K's Blasts From the Past": >> . >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more. > From funex79 at CHARTER.NET Thu Mar 31 03:22:18 2005 From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:22:18 -0800 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Sorry about that "ballard". It was just a typo for "ballad." As for "from the left"...yes I meant that both Robeson and Earl Robinson, the composer of the piece, were both blacklisted and otherwise punished for their left connections during the McCarthy period. Jerome Foster ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jerome Foster >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though the >> original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr >> Gray >> can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember >> except that >> it was written from the left... >> >> Jerome Foster. > > "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's > involvement with the CPUSA? > > -Mr Gray > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert Fitzke" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail >>> header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> --------- >>> >>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>> hearing >>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc set >>> that >>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>> about >>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>> among >>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>> still >>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>> other >>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single digits. I >>> used >>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff with >>> Louis >>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized the >>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>> >>> Bob >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning lemons >>>>> into >>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>>> take >>>>> my >>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always handy, >>>>> Always >>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>> >>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>> >>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can find >>>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>>> Bing >>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not true. >>>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> also a >>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with something >>>>>>> more than >>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he was >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> in my >>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>> thought >>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>> appears >>>>>>> from a >>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has taken >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this song >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> if my >>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 03:44:04 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:44:04 -0500 Subject: American Mother Goose (1940); Life like a snowflake (1947) Message-ID: LIFE LIKE A SNOWFLAKE I forgot to include this one. There are a few Google hits. July 1947, Utah Humanities Review, pg. 255: May your life be like a snowflake, Leave a mark, not a stain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE AMERICAN MOTHER GOOSE by Ray Wood forward by John A. Lomax New York: Frederick A, Stokes Company 1940 Pg. 3: How much wood would a wood-chuck chuck If a wood-chuck could chuck wood? He would chuck as much wood as a wood-chuck would chuck, If a wood-chuck could chuck wood. Pg. 5: Fishy-fishy in the brook Daddy caught him with a hook; Mammy fried him in the pan And baby ate him like a man. Pg. 7: Mother may I go out to swim? Yes, my darling daughter, But hang your clothes on a hickory limb And don't go near the water. Pg. 12: There was an owl lived in an oak The more he heard the less he spoke; The less he spoke the more he heard-- Good children should be like that bird. Pg. 16: Bat, bat, come under my hat And I'll give you a slice of bacon, And when I bake, I'll give you a cake, If I am not mistaken. Pg. 17: Good-night Sleep tight Don't let the mosquitoes bits. Pg. 22: I know something I won't tell, Three little niggers in a peanut shell, One can read and one can write And one can smoke his daddy's pipe. Pg. 28: Cry-Baby, cry, Take your little shirt-tail And wipe your little eye And go tell your mammy To give you a pie of pie. Pg. 44: Left foot, right foot, Any foot at all, Sally lost her petticoat A-goin' to the ball. Pg. 46: Chicken in the bread-pan, Pickin' up the dough; Granny will your dog bite? No, child, no. Pg. 59: I'll eat when I'm hungry And drink when I'm dry. If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live 'till I die. Pg. 62: Tommy was a man of law, He sold his bed to lie on straw; He sold the straw to lie on grass, To buy his wife a looking glass. Pg. 68: Had a little dog, his name was Rover, When he died he died all over, All but his tail and it turned over Over and over and ten times over. Pg. 73: Hound dog in the dinner pot, Lick, lick, lick, Chicken in the bread tray, Pick, pick, pick. Pg. 74: Had a little dog He had no sense, Ran under the house And barked at the fence. Pg. 76: When I am president of these United States I'll eat molasses candy and swing on all the gates. Pg. 78: (Post Office) P with a little o, S with a t, O double f, And i-c-e- Pg. 80: Doodle-bug, doodle-bug, Home you must fly Your house is on fire And your children will die. Pg. 82: Barley-corn, barley-corn, Injun-meal shorts, Spunk-water, spunk-water, swaller these warts. Pg. 84: God made man and man made money, God made bees and bees made honey, God made the hog and the hog made meat, Good hog and hominy is hard to beat. Pg. 86 (Riddles): Eyes it has yet cannot see, Tongue, but cannot speak to me; And although it's well-behaved Has a sole that can't be saved. (A shoe.) Pg. 87: In summer it dies, In winter it grows, Its roots above, It's head below. (An icicle.) Pg. 90: Runs all day and never walks, Ofter murmurs, never talks. It has a bed but never sleeps, It has a mouth, but never eats. (A river.) Pg. 92: Adam and Eve and Pinch-me-tight. Went over the river to see the fight. Adam and Eve came back before night, Now who was left to see the fight? Pg. 106: Round as a biscuit, Busy as a bee, Prettiest little thing You ever did see. Pg. 108: This is mother's looking glass And this is baby's cradle. Pg. 109: These are mother's knives and forks. THis is mother's table. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 03:46:52 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:46:52 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, it is. -Wilson On Mar 30, 2005, at 6:14 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING > Subject: Re: "The" Philippines > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. > Fritz >> "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray > >> More and more, I seem to hear the >> article being omitted. But I bet any Spanish speaker would say 'las >> Islas >> Filipinas', because isla (island) is feminine, and las Filipinas would >> be >> understood as 'the Filipina women'. (I suppose that the Spanish >> thought >> England, being an island, was feminine as well, although it was >> promoted to >> a "land": 'Inglaterra.' 'Course, tierra is feminine as well...so >> merry >> old England gets a la from most Spanish-speakers: 'la Inglaterra' >> (some do >> use 'el', but more probably omit the article than use either gender >> form >> nowadays. >> >> The Yukon, I think, also is derived from the Yukon River. >> >> I believe there is (or was) a Bronx River, though if the borough was >> named >> for the river or vice versa, I don't know. >> >> Don't forget that we once had "The Soviet Union" (hardly a river, >> that), >> and "The United Arab Republic" (which had a river or two, though >> hardly >> eponymous; but hey, a good candidate for oxymoron, no?) 'Course, >> these >> disunited unions surely follow different 'rules'. >> >> If we are going to keep this up, perhaps we should consider why rivers >> require the definite article, as well as some non-nation place names >> such >> as The Everglades, The (Wisconsin) Dells, etc. Seems to me that >> deserts >> also require the definite article, so it's nothing to do with water... >> >> Michael McKernan >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 04:05:46 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:05:46 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As fate would have it, I have many friends who use the pronunciation "ballard," though they use the spelling "ballad." That's why it caught my attention. I used to pronounce "God" as "guard," myself. But I managed to kick the habit while still in primary school. -Wilson Gray On Mar 30, 2005, at 10:22 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jerome Foster > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry about that "ballard". It was just a typo for "ballad." > As for "from the left"...yes I meant that both Robeson and Earl > Robinson, > the composer of the piece, were both blacklisted and otherwise > punished for > their left connections during the McCarthy period. > > Jerome Foster > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wilson Gray" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail >> header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Jerome Foster wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Jerome Foster >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> -------- >>> >>> That was "Ballard for Americans" which Bing Crosby recorded, though >>> the >>> original version was recorded by the great Paul Robeson. I'm sure Mr >>> Gray >>> can provide the details of its provenance which I don't remember >>> except that >>> it was written from the left... >>> >>> Jerome Foster. >> >> "'Ballard'"? Is "... written from the left ..." punning on Robeson's >> involvement with the CPUSA? >> >> -Mr Gray >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Robert Fitzke" >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:46 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail >>>> header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> >>>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>>> hearing >>>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 disc >>>> set >>>> that >>>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>>> about >>>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>>> among >>>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>>> still >>>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>>> other >>>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single >>>> digits. I >>>> used >>>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some stuff >>>> with >>>> Louis >>>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he recognized >>>> the >>>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> -- >>>>>> --- >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning >>>>>> lemons >>>>>> into >>>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to "Always >>>>>> take >>>>>> my >>>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always >>>>>> handy, >>>>>> Always >>>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>>> >>>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can >>>>> find >>>>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way back when, >>>>> Bing >>>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not >>>>> true. >>>>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>>> >>>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS lurker. >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> also a >>>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> more than >>>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits (he >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>> in my >>>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>>> appears >>>>>>>> from a >>>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has >>>>>>>> taken >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this >>>>>>>> song >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> if my >>>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 04:17:33 2005 From: stocklin at EARTHLINK.NET (Rex W. Stocklin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:17:33 -0500 Subject: hair band In-Reply-To: <200503300658.1dgEEQ5nk3NZFmR0@bunting.mail.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 6:58 AM -0800 3/30/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >1993 Pantera (Usenet: alt.rock-n-roll.metal ) (May 6) : >Pantera...had the image of a "hair band" but their music was still >much heavier than the typical glam stuff. > >Thousands of Google hits. A 'hair band" is a metal band of a kind >popular in the 1980s whose male musicians wore very long and >carefully styled hair, and typically sang songs in harmony. Gee, you speak of the '80s as if they were in the Paleozoic? Am I THAT old, golly! Of course, that last criteria, the harmony, is of a dubious nature, depending on the band. If it were the 50's I could see a Chuck Jones riff on this called "Hare Banned". HAH! Bugs channels the Oz while Fudd belts "Kill the Wabbit" (a well-known stand-up bit IS heavy-metal Elmer) Lest y'all think it's hair today, gone tom..., er hair yesterday, gone today; any pop culturologist (or just any snot-nosed kid) KNOWS, that two of the leading (though, not MY personal choices) candidates on this season's "American Idol" are refugees from hair bands. So the genre is thriving, even WITH the onslaught of rap, grunge, thrash, house, trip-hop and all the current groovy vibes. I can't jive at 55, Lexy Rexy Fishers, IN From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Mar 31 03:21:58 2005 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:21:58 -0600 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Blackpowder era manufacturer of single shot cartridge rifles. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Ft. Leonard Wood, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" "'Ballard'"? Is "... From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Mar 31 05:07:18 2005 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:07:18 -0600 Subject: "The" Philippines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Because, of course, 'Land' is neuter. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 727 9th Street East Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 0M6 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 On Wednesday, March 30, 2005 5:14 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote: > > In German, 'fatherland' i.e. _Vaterland_ is neuter. > Fritz > > "patria = fatherland" > > I don't think that this fact supports the claim that "countries are > masculine." "Patria" does mean "fatherland," but its own grammatical > gender is feminine. There's no necessary connection between the > grammatical gender of a word and its so-called "natural" gender. > Certainly, there's no necessary connection between > grammatical gender > and natural gender among the members of a semantic set such as the > random, unpredictable names of countries. > > -Wilson Gray > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04 From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 05:38:53 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:38:53 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) Message-ID: NEGRO FOLK RHYMES Wise and Otherwise with a study by Thomas W. Talley New York: The MacMillan COmpany 1922 Pg. 10: STAND BACK< BLACK MAN Oh! STAN' back, black man, You cain't shine; Yo' lips is too thick, An' you hain't my kin'. Pg. 63: DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS DON'T ax me no questions, An' I won't tell you no lies; But bring me dem apples, An' I'll make you some pies. Pg. 113: DOES MONEY TALK? DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. If it tak lak dey tell, Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, It up an' say: "Farewell!" Pg. 114: I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY I'LL eat when I's hungry An' I'll drink when I'se dry; An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, I'll live till I die. In my liddle log cabin, Ever since I'se been born; Dere hain't been no nothin' 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. But I knows what's a henhouse, An' de tucky he charve; An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, I cain't never starve. Pg. 153: HERE I STAND HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. Here I stan' on two liddle chips, Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. Pg. 159: ASPIRATION IF I wus de President Of dese United States, I'd eat good 'lasses candy, An' swing on all de gates. Pg. 163: THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... Pg. 171: DEEDLE, DUMPLING DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! He went to bed wid his dirty feet. Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! Pg. 186: DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, Don't sing 'fore you eat, Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, You'll cry 'fore you sleep. Pg. 207: LEARN TO COUNT NAUGHT'S a naught, Five's a figger. All fer de white man. None fer de Nigger. Ten's a ten, But it's mighty funny; When you cain't count good, You hain't got no money. Pg. 209: INDEPENDENCE I'SE jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. Pg. 211: DRINKING RAZOR SOUP HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, Dough he talk so big an' smart. Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. Pg. 244: "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, It's made in de shade, It's stirred wid a spade. Come buy my col' ice lemonade. It's made in de shade An sol' in de sun. Ef you hain't got no money, You cain't git none. One glass fer a nickel, An' two fer a dime, Ef you hain't got de chink, You cain't git mine. Come right way, Fer it sho' will pay To git candy fer de ladies An' cakes fer de babies." From bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 06:16:28 2005 From: bapopik at AOL.COM (bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:16:28 -0500 Subject: Oakland Tribune (1960-1975) Re: San Francisco University High School Slang In-Reply-To: <9e350b5364aa2c1ba9f53b74e0c37c87@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Newspaperarchive has recently announced the Oakland Tribune (1960-75). I haven't seen it there yet. We have almost no coverage of Oakland/San Francisco in the 20th century. Newspaperarchive has also announced a Texas newspaper, which will also be very welcome: Cool Content What's New: This is exciting - among the new releases to our site in recent days are issues of the Oakland (CA) Tribune from 1960 and 1975. Previously, the only Oakland- or San Francisco-generated, Bay-area pages available to subscribers were of the pre-20th century variety. Also, the Fitchburg (MA) Sentinel, particularly well-represented from the years 1868-1935, has been updated to include images from 1933. Finally, NewspaperARCHIVE.com has received confirmation that the pages on our site are being searched by Yahoo.com. That means our content can now be located by anyone using this powerful vehicle to search the Internet for historic newspaper images! So, check it out! What's Next: The NewspaperARCHIVE.com lineup will once again expand in the near future when content from a publication in Victoria, TX is introduced. Located near Texas' Gulf Coast, Victoria is about halfway between San Antonio and Houston. Additionally, our archives will add new pages from Oakland and Fitchburg, as well as Syracuse, NY, Annapolis, MD and Doylestown, PA. For more updates, count on this space to let you know each week! From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 06:19:24 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:19:24 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil Mack, and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. -Wilson Gray From dacolb at GMAIL.COM Thu Mar 31 06:53:22 2005 From: dacolb at GMAIL.COM (David Colburn) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:53:22 -0800 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: <4249c339.00222254.2d1b.1991SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on > >campus, I'll try to be in my office." > > > I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had > things like that make it into print. > > It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to > editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase > without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden > days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such > glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something that I'm missing this pm. From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 06:53:39 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:53:39 -0500 Subject: Dope questions Message-ID: As Free-Wheelin' Franklin has pointed out, "Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope." Some ways to ask, when the need arises: "Do you (want to) smoke marijuana/have some marijuana to sell?" Are you down with that shit? Do you turn on? Do you get high? Are you okay with that shit? Do you get fucked up? Do you go for that shit? Do you get down with that shit? -Wilson Gray From einstein at FROGNET.NET Thu Mar 31 13:07:01 2005 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:07:01 -0500 Subject: "The" Philippines Message-ID: The Bronx is supposedly a way to refer to the family whose farm was north of Manhattan--the Bronck's farm. Barry, is it a myth? After independence, Ukraine dropped the "the" From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 14:08:42 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:08:42 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit Message-ID: In southern Illinois during the 1950s we used to say colder than a witch's tit in a brass brassiere or alternatively colder than a well digger's asshole. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:15 PM Subject: colder than a witch's tit > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: colder than a witch's tit > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? > > Thanks, > > Sam Clements From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 14:22:05 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:22:05 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: Ballad For Americans was written by Earl Robinson whom I met many years ago. He was a leftist composer, and his most famous song was "I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night" which goes: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Alive as you or me Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead," "I never died," says he "I never died," says he "In Salt Lake, Joe," says I to him, Him standing by my bed, "They framed you on a murder charge," Says Joe, "But I ain't dead," Says Joe, "But I ain't dead." "The copper bosses killed you, Joe, They shot you, Joe," says I. "Takes more than guns to kill a man," Says Joe, "I didn't die," Says Joe, "I didn't die." And standing there as big as life And smiling with his eyes Joe says, "What they forgot to kill Went on to organize, Went on to organize." "Joe Hill ain't dead," he says to me, "Joe Hill ain't never died. Where working men are out on strike Joe Hill is at their side, Joe Hill is at their side." "From San Diego up to Maine, In every mine and mill, Where workers strike and organize," Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill," Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill." I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Alive as you or me Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead," "I never died," says he "I never died," says he Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:24 PM Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Everything I write appears to be written from the left as well, unless I'm > doing boustrophedon. > > Oh, I see. Political left. > > JL > .com From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Mar 31 14:35:08 2005 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:35:08 -0500 Subject: colder than a witch's tit In-Reply-To: <01b601c535fb$254046c0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: In Southern Illinois in the 40's we said (full forms) Colder'n a witch's tit in a brass bra on a frosty Halloween and Colder'n a well-digger's ass in the Klondike dInIs >In southern Illinois during the 1950s we used to say colder than a witch's >tit in a brass brassiere or alternatively colder than a well digger's >asshole. > >Page Stephens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sam Clements" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:15 PM >Subject: colder than a witch's tit > >>---------------------- Information from the mail >>header ----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Sam Clements >>Subject: colder than a witch's tit >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Is this cited anywhere prior to the OED's F. van Wyck Mason in 1932? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Sam Clements -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages A-740 Wells Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 Phone: (517) 432-3099 Fax: (517) 432-2736 preston at msu.edu From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:33:54 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:33:54 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: Mack and Brown I don't recognize, off-hand. Ford Dabney was associated with James Reese Europe and the Clef Club. He would have written the music. I see from NYTimes on Proquest that Mack lead the choir for an all-black musical in 1930, with Eubie Blake's orchestra and Ethel Waters, &c. Brown was associated with George White and other Broadway producers as a writer, so he probably wrote the lyrics and was no doubt a white man. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:19 am Subject: "Shine" > The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil > Mack,and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. > > -Wilson Gray > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:46:39 2005 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:46:39 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) Message-ID: At the least the date 1924 is wrong. Crosby first came to some prominence in 1926 as a member of a singing group with the Pual Whiteman orchestra. The eldest (or second eldest) of the Mills brothers was born in 1912. One of the four brothers died young, in the mid 30s, and was replaced by their father. Those of us who remember seeing the Mills Brothers on television or wherever are old codgers, but anyone who remembers them when they were really the four brothers is a danged old codger. This information is from the Grove Dictionary of American Music. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Wilson Gray Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:23 pm Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Robert Fitzke > > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > -------- > > > > My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever > > hearing > > him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 > disc set > > that > > was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks > > about > > "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and > > among > > these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can > > still > > hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and > > other > > Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single > digits. I > > used > > to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some > stuff with > > Louis > > and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he > recognized the > > in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. > > > > Bob > > That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is > just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in > Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in > English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like > BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of > the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. > > "Where the blue of the night > "Meets the gold of the day, > "Someone waits for me." > > For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. > However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song > was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit > A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that > we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different > platters or not. > > I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is > not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is > redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such > justification.Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule > a rule? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Wilson Gray" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM > > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > > > > > >> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>> ----------------------- > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke > >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > >>> -- > >>> -------- > >>> > >>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning > lemons>>> into > >>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to > "Always take > >>> my > >>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always > handy,>>> Always > >>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." > >>> > >>> Did you get anything about the author? > >>> > >> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can > find>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way > back when, > >> Bing > >> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills > >> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers > >> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not > true.>> *Really* weird, if true. > >> > >> -Wilson Gray > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Wilson Gray" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM > >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>> > >>> > >>>> 1910 version of "Shine" > >>>>> > >>>>> VERSE > >>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. > >>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town > >>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. > >>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. > >>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line > >>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" > >>>>> But I don't care a bit. > >>>>> Here's how I figure it: > >>>>> > >>>>> CHORUS > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, > >>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, > >>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, > >>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. > >>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', > >>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. > >>>>> Just because my color's shady, > >>>>> Slightly different, maybe. > >>>>> That is why they call me shine. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>>>> ----------------------- > >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society > >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke > >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > >>>>> -- > >>>>> -- > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS > lurker. I'm > >>>>> also a > >>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with > something>>>>> more than > >>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits > (he was > >>>>> big > >>>>> in my > >>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In > >>>>> listening to > >>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The > >>>>> thought > >>>>> ocurred > >>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it > >>>>> appears > >>>>> from a > >>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has > taken a > >>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into > >>>>> compliments. > >>>>> > >>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these > >>>>> matters. Do > >>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this > song>>>>> or > >>>>> if my > >>>>> impression is on or off target? > >>>>> > >>>>> Will appreciate your comments. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Fitzke > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 15:56:01 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:56:01 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:53 PM -0800 3/30/05, David Colburn wrote: > > >> >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on >> >campus, I'll try to be in my office." >> >> >> I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have actually had >> things like that make it into print. >> >> It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to >> editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of phrase >> without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the olden >> days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, such >> glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. > >I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll >take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something >that I'm missing this pm. I'm assuming it's the garden path initiated by taking "that *am* to..." to involve a copula rather than the same sans-dot initialism you use in your message. I could be wrong, but I think this involves the isograph between those who insist on "a.m."/"p.m." and those who count on context to disambiguate "am". L From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 16:13:50 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:13:50 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun Message-ID: Some times computer programs give interesting results. A few years ago The New Scientist reported that a voice recognition program interpreted the word diarrhea as dire rear. Makes sense to me. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:56 AM Subject: Re: proof-reading fun > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: proof-reading fun > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:53 PM -0800 3/30/05, David Colburn wrote: >> > >>> >"If you can drop me an e-mail that am to let me know when you'll be on >>> >campus, I'll try to be in my office." >>> >>> >>> I think this represents one of the problems of progress. I have >>> actually had >>> things like that make it into print. >>> >>> It is so easy to make small changes in a ms. I have sent copy off to >>> editors, and taking one last look, make a small change in a word of >>> phrase >>> without noticing its effect on other parts of the sentence. In the >>> olden >>> days, when to change one word you needed to retype the entire page, >>> such >>> glitches didn't happen. Other ones did. >> >>I don't see the proof-reading problem in the quoted sentence, but I'll >>take another look at it tomorrow am, and maybe I'll notice something >>that I'm missing this pm. > > I'm assuming it's the garden path initiated by taking "that *am* > to..." to involve a copula rather than the same sans-dot initialism > you use in your message. I could be wrong, but I think this involves > the isograph between those who insist on "a.m."/"p.m." and those who > count on context to disambiguate "am". > > L From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Mar 31 16:19:51 2005 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: proof-reading fun In-Reply-To: <000801c5360c$a631dbc0$0a0110ac@D552FS31> Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0500 3/31/05, Page Stephens wrote: >Some times computer programs give interesting results. > >A few years ago The New Scientist reported that a voice recognition program >interpreted the word diarrhea as dire rear. > >Makes sense to me. That's a frequently reported eggcorn as well. In fact, one might expect errors in voice recognition to track eggcorns fairly well. Larry From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 16:29:12 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:29:12 -0500 Subject: "Shine" Message-ID: Last year I was on a jury with a Black friend of mine, and if you know anything about jury duty you have to spend seemingly endless hours in the jury room waiting for something to happen so Joe began to tell Shine jokes to the rest of us. Not being shy I replied to him by telling hillbilly jokes and by the time our jury duty was over we had gotten to the point where someone or other suggested that we go out on the comedy circuit as Shine and the Hillbilly. We never did it but it was a lot of fun while it lasted. Page Stephens ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Thompson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: Re: "Shine" > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: "Shine" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mack and Brown I don't recognize, off-hand. Ford Dabney was associated > with James Reese Europe and the Clef Club. He would have written the > music. I see from NYTimes on Proquest that Mack lead the choir for an > all-black musical in 1930, with Eubie Blake's orchestra and Ethel > Waters, &c. Brown was associated with George White and other Broadway > producers as a writer, so he probably wrote the lyrics and was no doubt > a white man. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:19 am > Subject: "Shine" > >> The authors of the 1910 version of "Shine" are Ford Dabney, Cecil >> Mack,and Lew Brown, according to a couple of sites on the Web. >> >> -Wilson Gray >> From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Mar 31 19:24:18 2005 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 14:24:18 EST Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20proof-reading=20fun?= Message-ID: In a message dated 3/31/05 2:00:52 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes: > That's a frequently reported eggcorn as well.? In fact, one might > expect errors in voice recognition to track eggcorns fairly well. > > Larry > The difference being that there has to be some kind of semantic relationship between the target and the misperceptioon to make the eggcorn work reasonably well, right? Whereas misperceptions in speech (NOT the same thing as "errors in voice recognition," by the way!!!!) can jump entirely off the semantic track (e.g., "I always used to rather enjoy the big floppy disks" perceived as " ... dicks"). From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU Thu Mar 31 20:26:04 2005 From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:26:04 -0500 Subject: cush(t)y-mush(t)y Message-ID: Spotted in King Kaufman's sports column for Salon.com: ----- http://www.salon.com/news/sports/col/kaufman/2005/03/31/thursday/index1.html I'll do what I did two years ago and take a flyer on the Cubs, though it's less of a flyer this time. ... But it wouldn't be a flyer if everything looked all cushty-mushty, would it? ----- I've seen "cushty" ('good, fine') in UK contexts -- OED says it's from Romani _kushto_/_kushti_, perhaps influenced by "cushy" (which is of Anglo-Indian origin, from Hindi _khush_ 'pleasure'). Kaufman has apparently borrowed the reduplicated "cushty-mushty" from Monty Python's Terry Gilliam, since Gilliam used it in an interview Kaufman did in 2001: ----- http://dir.salon.com/people/feature/2001/06/16/horse_int/index.html [Kaufman:] What have you been up to since "Holy Grail"? [Gilliam:] Well, I don't mind telling you, it hasn't all been cushty mushty, old friend. ----- No Googlehits aside from Kaufman and Gilliam, but there are some examples of "cushy-mushy" (doesn't seem to be geographically localized): ----- http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Bike_hardtail/product_19644.shtml Don't buy this bike if you are looking for a cushy-mushy ride. ----- http://www.starwatch.co.za/gemini.htm Home and family From January to end-September, home life hits a cushy-mushy peak, filled with love, bliss and generally good vibes. ----- http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003520&channel=gulberg Maybe we should call the bluff now and see things from what they really are rather than from the prism of "inter-faith" cushy-mushy glasses. ----- http://sonicrampage.com/index.php?option=articles&task=viewarticle&artid=20&Itemid=3 I would love to say "Yeah, it was all pre-planned and everything was just cushy mushy." ----- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.juggling/msg/74859bc75a68be85 Better grip, and that tiny bit of padding from the foam that makes everything feel all cushymushy. ----- --Ben Zimmer From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 20:36:35 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:36:35 -0500 Subject: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Across the alley from the Alamo "Where (or "When"?) the summer sun decides to settle low "A fly sings an Indian 'hi-de-ho' "To the people passing by." I remember my late stepfather pointing out that dad had joined the group after the death of one of the brothers. In those days, "the aptly-named," according to a source that I've now forgotten - Downbeat? New Yorker? Saturday Review? - Paul Whiteman, "The King of Jazz?/Swing?" had his own TV show. No wonder that TV was called "a vast wasteland"! -Wilson Gray On Mar 31, 2005, at 10:46 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At the least the date 1924 is wrong. Crosby first came to some > prominence in 1926 as a member of a singing group with the Pual > Whiteman orchestra. The eldest (or second eldest) of the Mills > brothers was born in 1912. One of the four brothers died young, in the > mid 30s, and was replaced by their father. Those of us who remember > seeing the Mills Brothers on television or wherever are old codgers, > but anyone who remembers them when they were really the four brothers > is a danged old codger. > This information is from the Grove Dictionary of American Music. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wilson Gray > Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:23 pm > Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) > >> On Mar 31, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>> -------- >>> >>> My folks used to have some of Bing's stuff. I don't remember ever >>> hearing >>> him do "Shine" but I do have a recollection of a multiple 78 >> disc set >>> that >>> was some kind of historical/patriotic thing in which he sings/talks >>> about >>> "We are endowed by our Creator wioth certain inalienable rights and >>> among >>> these rights ate LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS". I can >>> still >>> hear it my head. Also there were references to Chaim (?) Solomon and >>> other >>> Revolutionary figures. Stirring stuff to a kid in his single >> digits. I >>> used >>> to think Bing was somewhat square until I heard him do some >> stuff with >>> Louis >>> and then Ella. That changed my views. I also suspect he >> recognized the >>> in-your-face lyrics of Shine when he did his version. >>> >>> Bob >> >> That Der Bingle made a version of "Shine" with the Mills Brothers is >> just something that I read in a message posted on some Web site in >> Sweden. (No, I can't read Swedish. Fortunately, Swedes can write in >> English.) I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claim. It sounds like >> BS to me. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. FWIW, the date of >> the Crosby/Mills Brothers version was given as 1924. >> >> "Where the blue of the night >> "Meets the gold of the day, >> "Someone waits for me." >> >> For some reason, I ain't never dug me no whole lot of Louis Armstrong. >> However, Ella is another matter. For many years, my favorite Ella song >> was "Wubba Dolly." This may have been the B side of "A-tiskit >> A-tasket." I was very young, at the time. I remember for certain that >> we had both songs, but I can't recall whether they were on different >> platters or not. >> >> I recall learning a prescriptive rule to the effect that "or not" is >> not to be used in conjunction with "whether," because "or not" is >> redundantly implied by the use of "whether" or some such >> justification.Does anyone else recall having to learn such a rule >> a rule? >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:36 PM >>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>>>> -- >>>>> -------- >>>>> >>>>> The Verse seems to support the notion the author was turning >> lemons>>> into >>>>> lemonade. Laine's version changes "Takes trouble...." to >> "Always take >>>>> my >>>>> troubles with a great big smile" then "Just 'cause I'm always >> handy,>>> Always >>>>> feelin' fine and dandy, That is...." >>>>> >>>>> Did you get anything about the author? >>>>> >>>> Damn! I didn't think about that at all. Hm. I'll see what I can >> find>> out. BTW, if I remember what I read correctly, way, way >> back when, >>>> Bing >>>> Crosby did a version of this in which he was backed up by the Mills >>>> Brothers. Der Bingle sang the "dirty" version, with the Brothers >>>> backgrounding him with a cleaned-up version. Weird, even if not >> true.>> *Really* weird, if true. >>>> >>>> -Wilson Gray >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 7:50 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 1910 version of "Shine" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> VERSE >>>>>>> When I was born they christened me plain Samuel Johnson Brown. >>>>>>> But I hadn't grown so very tall, 'fore some folks in this town >>>>>>> Had changed it 'round to "Sambo." I was "Rastus" to a few. >>>>>>> Then "Chocolate Drop" was added by some others that I knew. >>>>>>> And then, to cap the climax, I was strolling down the line >>>>>>> When someone shouted, "Fellas, hey! Come on and pipe the shine!" >>>>>>> But I don't care a bit. >>>>>>> Here's how I figure it: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CHORUS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, just because my hair is curly, >>>>>>> And just because my teeth is pearly, >>>>>>> Just because I always wears a smile, >>>>>>> Likes to dress up in the latest style. >>>>>>> Just because I'm glad I'm livin', >>>>>>> Takes trouble smilin', never whine. >>>>>>> Just because my color's shady, >>>>>>> Slightly different, maybe. >>>>>>> That is why they call me shine. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 27, 2005, at 3:14 PM, Robert Fitzke wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>> ----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Robert Fitzke >>>>>>> Subject: Re: A Diller, A Dollar (1955) (continued) >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------ >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Mr. Gray: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm a 79 year old semi-retired lawyer and long-time ADS >> lurker. I'm >>>>>>> also a >>>>>>> long-time collector of jazz records (since age 12) with >> something>>>>> more than >>>>>>> 1,000 albums. I recently bought a CD of Frankie Laine hits >> (he was >>>>>>> big >>>>>>> in my >>>>>>> late teens/early twenties) that includes a cut of "Shine". In >>>>>>> listening to >>>>>>> it I think I really heard the lyrics for the first time. The >>>>>>> thought >>>>>>> ocurred >>>>>>> that there must be something more behind these lyrics than it >>>>>>> appears >>>>>>> from a >>>>>>> casual listen. Specifically it seems as if the lyricist has >> taken a >>>>>>> collection of derogatory racial comments and turned them into >>>>>>> compliments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You seem to have an interest in music and a knowledge of these >>>>>>> matters. Do >>>>>>> you happen to know anything about the background behind this >> song>>>>> or >>>>>>> if my >>>>>>> impression is on or off target? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will appreciate your comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob Fitzke >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > From wilson.gray at RCN.COM Thu Mar 31 21:15:22 2005 From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:15:22 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:38 AM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM > Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > NEGRO FOLK RHYMES > Wise and Otherwise > with a study > by Thomas W. Talley > New York: The MacMillan COmpany > 1922 > > Pg. 10: > STAND BACK< BLACK MAN > Oh! > STAN' back, black man, > You cain't shine; > Yo' lips is too thick, > An' you hain't my kin'. > > Pg. 63: > DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS > DON'T ax me no questions, > An' I won't tell you no lies; > But bring me dem apples, > An' I'll make you some pies. > > Pg. 113: > DOES MONEY TALK? > DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. > If it tak lak dey tell, > Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, > It up an' say: "Farewell!" > > Pg. 114: > I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY > I'LL eat when I's hungry > An' I'll drink when I'se dry; > An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, > I'll live till I die. > > In my liddle log cabin, > Ever since I'se been born; > Dere hain't been no nothin' > 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. > > But I knows what's a henhouse, > An' de tucky he charve; > An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, > I cain't never starve. > > Pg. 153: > HERE I STAND > HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; > If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. > > Here I stan' on two liddle chips, > Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. > > Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; > I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. > > Pg. 159: > ASPIRATION > IF I wus de President > Of dese United States, > I'd eat good 'lasses candy, > An' swing on all de gates. > > Pg. 163: > THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES > TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; > One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... > > Pg. 171: > DEEDLE, DUMPLING > DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! > He went to bed wid his dirty feet. > Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! > Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! > Diddle, diddle, dumpling My son John He went to bed with his stockings on Diddle, diddle, dumpiing My son John > Pg. 186: > DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST > DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, > Don't sing 'fore you eat, > Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, > You'll cry 'fore you sleep. > > Pg. 207: > LEARN TO COUNT > NAUGHT'S a naught, > Five's a figger. > All fer de white man. > None fer de Nigger. > > Ten's a ten, > But it's mighty funny; > When you cain't count good, > You hain't got no money. > > Pg. 209: > INDEPENDENCE > I'se jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. Didn't someone once publish a book with the title, "A Hog On Ice"? I've never heard either version used in real life. > Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. > If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. > I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. > > Pg. 211: > DRINKING RAZOR SOUP > HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; I once heard someone telling a "preacher" joke say, "Neebuck took a [raz@] an' stahted slewin' them Jews." At the time, I thought he had simply made up that pronunciation of "razor" to make the joke funnier. Now, I guess that "razzer/rozzer" or something like them are/were actually used, like "stab/stob," etc. > Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. > If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, > Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. > > He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, > Dough he talk so big an' smart. > Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. > Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. > > Pg. 244: > "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, > It's made in de shade, > It's stirred wid a spade. > Come buy my col' ice lemonade. > It's made in de shade > An sol' in de sun. > Ef you hain't got no money, > You cain't git none. > One glass fer a nickel, > An' two fer a dime, > Ef you hain't got de chink, > You cain't git mine. > Come right way, > Fer it sho' will pay > To git candy fer de ladies > An' cakes fer de babies." > From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 31 22:17:46 2005 From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:17:46 -0500 Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) Message-ID: Big Bill Broonzy, Black, Brown And White This little song that I'm singin' about, People, you all know that it's true, If you're black and gotta work for livin', Now, this is what they will say to you, They says: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, Stick around, But if you's black, oh, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I was in a place one night, They was all havin' fun, They was all buyin' beer and wine, But they would not sell me none. They said: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I went to an employment office, I got a number, I got in line, They called everybody's number, But they never did call mine. They said: If you was white, You's alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. Me and a man was workin' side by side, Now, this is what it meant: They was payin' him a dollar an hour, And they was payin' me fifty cent. They said: If you was white, You'd be alright, If you was brown, You could stick around, But as you's black, oh, brother, Get back, get back, get back. I helped win sweet victories, With my plow and hoe, Now, I want you to tell me, brother, What you gonna do 'bout the old Jim Crow? Now, if you is white, You's alright, If you's brown, Stick around, But if you's black, Hmm, hmm, brother, Get back, get back, get back. G7) Me and my wife went all over town And everywhere we went people turned us down Lord, in a (C7) bourgeois town It?s a (G) bourgeois town I got the (D7) bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all a- (G) round Home of the brave, land of the free I don?t wanna be mistreated by no bourgeoisie Lord, in a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around Well, me and my wife we were standing upstairs We heard the white man say ?I don?t want no niggers up there? Lord, in a bourgeois town Uhm, bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around Well, them white folks in Washington they know how To call a colored man a nigger just to see him bow Lord, it?s a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around I tell all the colored folks to listen to me Don't try to find you no home in Washington, DC ?Cause it?s a bourgeois town Uhm, the bourgeois town I got the bourgeois blues Gonna spread the news all around ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" To: Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mar 31, 2005, at 12:38 AM, bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: bapopik at AOL.COM >> Subject: Negro Folk Rhymes (1922) ("lemonade" rhyme) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> NEGRO FOLK RHYMES >> Wise and Otherwise >> with a study >> by Thomas W. Talley >> New York: The MacMillan COmpany >> 1922 >> >> Pg. 10: >> STAND BACK< BLACK MAN >> Oh! >> STAN' back, black man, >> You cain't shine; >> Yo' lips is too thick, >> An' you hain't my kin'. >> >> Pg. 63: >> DON'T ASK ME QUESTIONS >> DON'T ax me no questions, >> An' I won't tell you no lies; >> But bring me dem apples, >> An' I'll make you some pies. >> >> Pg. 113: >> DOES MONEY TALK? >> DEM whitefolks say sat money talk. >> If it tak lak dey tell, >> Den ev'ry time it come to Sam, >> It up an' say: "Farewell!" >> >> Pg. 114: >> I'LL EAT WHEN I'M HUNGRY >> I'LL eat when I's hungry >> An' I'll drink when I'se dry; >> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me, >> I'll live till I die. >> >> In my liddle log cabin, >> Ever since I'se been born; >> Dere hain't been no nothin' >> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn. >> >> But I knows what's a henhouse, >> An' de tucky he charve; >> An' if ole Mosser don't kill me, >> I cain't never starve. >> >> Pg. 153: >> HERE I STAND >> HERE I stan', raggity an' dirty; >> If you don't come kiss me, I'll run lak a tucky. >> >> Here I stan' on two liddle chips, >> Pray, come kiss my sweet liddle lips. >> >> Here I stan' crooked lak a horn; >> I hain't had no kiss since I'se been born. >> >> Pg. 159: >> ASPIRATION >> IF I wus de President >> Of dese United States, >> I'd eat good 'lasses candy, >> An' swing on all de gates. >> >> Pg. 163: >> THE END OF TEN LITTLE NEGROES >> TEN liddle Niggers, a-eatin', fat an' fine; >> One choke hisse'f an' date lef' nine... >> >> Pg. 171: >> DEEDLE, DUMPLING >> DEEDLE, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! >> He went to bed wid his dirty feet. >> Mammy laid a switch down on dat sheet! >> Deedle, deedle, dumplin'! My boy, Pete! >> > > Diddle, diddle, dumpling > My son John > He went to bed with his stockings on > Diddle, diddle, dumpiing > My son John > >> Pg. 186: >> DON'T SING BEFORE BREAKFAST >> DON'T sing out 'fore Breakfast, >> Don't sing 'fore you eat, >> Or you'll cry out 'fore midnight, >> You'll cry 'fore you sleep. >> >> Pg. 207: >> LEARN TO COUNT >> NAUGHT'S a naught, >> Five's a figger. >> All fer de white man. >> None fer de Nigger. >> >> Ten's a ten, >> But it's mighty funny; >> When you cain't count good, >> You hain't got no money. >> >> Pg. 209: >> INDEPENDENCE >> I'se jes as innnerpenunt as a pig on ice. > > Didn't someone once publish a book with the title, "A Hog On Ice"? I've > never heard either version used in real life. > >> Gwineter git up ag'in if I slips down twice. >> If I cain't git up, I can jes lie down. >> I don't want no Niggers to be he'pin' me 'roun'. >> >> Pg. 211: >> DRINKING RAZOR SOUP >> HE'S been drinkin' razzer soup; > > I once heard someone telling a "preacher" joke say, "Neebuck took a > [raz@] an' stahted slewin' them Jews." At the time, I thought he had > simply made up that pronunciation of "razor" to make the joke funnier. > Now, I guess that "razzer/rozzer" or something like them are/were > actually used, like "stab/stob," etc. > >> Dat sharp Nigger, black lak ink. >> If he don't watch dat tongue o' his, >> Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think. >> >> He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost, >> Dough he talk so big an' smart. >> Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in. >> Cain't more an' drive dat ole mule chyart. >> >> Pg. 244: >> "Here's yo' col' ice lemonade, >> It's made in de shade, >> It's stirred wid a spade. >> Come buy my col' ice lemonade. >> It's made in de shade >> An sol' in de sun. >> Ef you hain't got no money, >> You cain't git none. >> One glass fer a nickel, >> An' two fer a dime, >> Ef you hain't got de chink, >> You cain't git mine. >> Come right way, >> Fer it sho' will pay >> To git candy fer de ladies >> An' cakes fer de babies." >> From pds at VISI.COM Thu Mar 31 23:42:57 2005 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:42:57 -0600 Subject: flak In-Reply-To: <20050330230602.41D3B4A05@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com> Message-ID: At 3/30/2005 02:58 PM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >This misunderstanding of "flak" as shrapnel or bullets must be decades old : So the derivation from the German "Flugzeug Abwehr Kannonen" (or something like that) is an etymythology??? I want my mommy. --Tom Kysilko