"politics" and "guys"

[Jonathan Lighter]

Animals, of course, esp. the domestic kind, are frequently referred to affectionately as "guys" (cf. earlier "fellow" used the same way).

  HDAS I has nothing before 1978 for this, undoubtedly because it didn't occur to me for many years to recognize this uage as noteworthy.

  However, I do feel that its widespread use is relatively "new."  I believe it was used in the '50s, which is as far back as I can remember. Elderly people (no wisecracks) seem to prefer "critter."

  I object to the politics of this usage, which serves to exalt animal life to fuilly human status, entailing that mere animals possess immortal souls, the powers of speech, reason, instant credit, etc.  It falsely classifies animals, compromises our humanity, and should be opposed and extirpated.

  Goak.

  So, can anybody antedate "guy" =critter?

  JL
  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
  ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "politics" and "guys"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ca.1967, the use of "you guys" by women to address groups consisting
entirely of women annoyed me. However, I've since been able to get
past that. Indeed, from time to time, I've found myself addressing a
group of women and / or girls as "you guys," when, in the course of
monitoring my speech, I've found myself reduced to a choice of that or
"y'all."

-Wilson

On 12/2/06, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "politics" and "guys"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry for stupidly identifying Lucy as _Homo erectus_.
>
> She was an Australopithecine, as I well know.
>
> The TV reference to "politics" described the Australopithecine kind.
>
> JL
>
> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Pt.1
>
> Some weeks back, IIRC, I posted an example of "politics" used in the narrow sense of "simple power relationships in society; the jockeying for influence or power," or however you care to phrase it. Some of you replied that that's pretty much what "politics" always means.
> As you wish, post-Hobbesians.
>
> As I write, though, the Discovery Science Channel is rebroadcasting a 2003 rock-u-sock-u-mentary called _Walking with Cavemen_. It makes a reference to "politics" among members of a _Homo erectus_ troop.
>
> _H. erectus_ is, of course, the human ancestor most familiar through the fossil known as "Lucy." These small critterfolk walked erect but seem to have had nothing comparable to a language enabling them to make political speeches, discuss nuances of governing, etc. So their "politics" must have been pretty close to animal dominance relationships. The show's narration doesn't even try to suggest otherwise.
>
> Pt. 2
>
> Long, long ago I made vague reference to Douglas R. Hofstadter's crusade against generic "you guys." By chance, I've stumbled again onto the source, and here it is:
>
> 1997 D. R. Hofstadter _Le Ton Beau de Marot_ (N.Y.: Basic Books) 202: In my view, the most pervasive - and for that reason by far the most serious - disease of sexist usage infecting contemporary American English is the to-many-people-innocuous-sounding phrase "you guys" (and related ways of using "guys" in directly addressing a group of people)....
>
> And so on for a couple of oversize pages.
>
> JL
>
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-----
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