old hat

Tue Mar 7 03:34:37 UTC 2006

Don't apologize, Wilson. My mind's been messed with by professionals.

  But the sad truth is that nobody really knows the origin of "tighter than Dick's hatband."  The folk-theory I alluded to is only one among many. (It must be the most memorable because it's the only one I can think of right now.) There's an excellent chance that there was just a guy named Dick who had this hatband....

  What's really remarkable is that "old hat" is now a polite synonym for _passe'_ (maybe a coincidence), and that its once familiar sexual sense has utterly disappeared.

  How often does *that* happen ?

  JL

  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
  ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: old hat
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't want to mess with your mind, Jon, but "tight as Dick's hatband" is
one of my 95-year-old mother's favorite expressions. You may recall the
discussion here in
which I tried to defend the thesis that women have no understanding of
slang.
Otherwise, you wouldn't have little old ladies like my dear mom talking
straight
out of the gutter without realizing it. I punted after being taken to the
woodshed
by arnold.

Since I literally learned this expression at my mother's knee, I had no ide=
a
of
its origin till I happened upon it in Partridge. To coin a phrase, I was
shocked!
Shocked!

And speaking of not getting it, you'd be surprised at the number of women
who
have quietly taken me aside to explain to me that I'm mistaken in my belief
that I am the person who coined a given phrase. However, I was once
mistakenly given credit for initiating the use of "as a matter of fact,"
with
"yes" understood, as an alternative to a simple "yes."

-Wilson

-Wilson

On 3/6/06, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: old hat
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>
> Whoever dreamed up that pun must have been tighter than Dick's hatband.
>
> If you get the idea.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: old hat
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>
> Well, irregardless (What ever happened to that annoying word? And what
> abou=3D
> t
> "forMIDable'? Maybe there is a God!) of my long-ago pet peeve, "old hat"
> because it's often felt is a good one! :-)
>
> -Wilson
>
> On 3/6/06, James Smith wrote:
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: James Smith
> > Subject: Re: old hat
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
> ------
> >
> > I pronounce them the same or differently, depending on
> > emphasis and context. Typical use is "y at r" for both,
> > but "your" can be the same as "yore" and "you're"
> > something like "you'@r" (almost not a contraction:
> > maybe I'm not really using "you're" when I say this
> > but rather actually saying "you are", but were I to
> > write what I think I say, I'd use the contraction).
> >
> >
> > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > You mean there's a difference ? I don't understand
> > > what you're driving at.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > Wilson Gray wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > header -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > Subject: Re: old hat
> > >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
> ------
> > >
> > > The use of "your" for "you're" and the use of
> > > "you're" for "your" in writin=3D3D
> > > g
> > > are so common, in my experience, as hardly to be
> > > worthy of mention. But I a=3D3D
> > > m
> > > surprised to see that this phenomenon is so old,
> > > though.
> > >
> > > Likewise, there are people who pronounce "your" as
> > > though it was spelled
> > > "you're" and who pronounce "you're" as though it was
> > > spelled "your." In my
> > > experience, this is a peculiarity of some dialects
> > > of White (American)
> > > English. I didn't become aware of it until I joined
> > > the Army in the late
> > > '50's. I found - and find - this usage *extremely*
> > > annoying, to the extent
> > > that I once foolishly tried to get such speakers not
> > > to use it. Needless to
> > > say, I had no success whatsoever. They didn't even
> > > understand what I was
> > > driving at. So, I just had to learn to live with it.
> > >
> > > I'd like to think that the pronunciation influences
> > > the spelling, but I hav=3D3D
> > > e
> > > no evidence for this beyond wishful thinking.
> > >
> > > -Wilson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/3/06, Jonathon Green wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > header
> > > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > Poster: Jonathon Green
> > > > Subject: Re: old hat
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
> =3D3D
> > > ------
> > > >
> > > > George Thompson wrote:
> > > > > [...] I notice the nearly 100 year gap in the
> > > OED's citations between
> > > > 1796
> > > > > and 1893, and that both these are from
> > > dictionaries.
> > > > Nice _NY Sporting Whip_ stuff, George. A couple
> > > more mid-century
> > > > 'free-range' examples:
> > > >
> > > > 1841 in _The Gentleman's Spicey Songster_ [song
> > > title] 'Mother H's
> > > > Knocking Shop; or, A Bit Of Old Hat!'
> > > >
> > > > c.1864 'The Female Auctioneer' in Anon. _The
> > > Rakish Rhymer_ (1917) 137:
> > > > And if your [sic] fond of nice=3D3D97 _old hat_, /
> > > I've some that you can buy=3D3D
> > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > JG
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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