pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Sat Nov 4 21:54:43 UTC 2006
Unfortunately, there really isn't any meaningful way to discuss
anything that merely a matter of opinioon, even granting the existence
of several ways of speaking outside of the South that, put together in
various ways, can loosely be referred to as "standard American
English."
Although we all had studied German in college, when my fellow GI's and
I first "bopped the strass" in Frankfurt am Main, we found ourselves
to be basically unable to understand the answers to the questions that
we asked of passers-by, unless the reply was given in English. (You
guys won't mind if I answer you in English, do you?) The problem was
that we had all been taught what Germans themselves - iin those days,
at least - called "Hochdeutsch." But they spoke only their local
dialect. Hence, they could understand our questions, but we couldn't
understand their answers.
Of course, that's a sword that cuts two ways. A German classmate of
mine at UCLA told me that, despite his having studied English for more
than twelve years, upon his arrival in the U.S., he couldn't
understand a word, nor could anyone understand him. The problem was
that he had studied the British BBC-style pronunciation, useless when
he got off the plane in Houston.
On another occasion, three other GI's and I one night were walking the
streets of Amsterdam, trying to locate a bar that had been recommended
to us. After a half-hour or so of fruitless searching, we decided
simply to ask somebody. It being the case that Holland is reputed to
be the most English-speaking country in Europe outside of the British
Isles, we expected no problems. So, we stopped the first Amsterdammer
that we came across and asked whether he knew where the bar was. He
looked a little confused. So, he asked, "Wat?" We repeated the
question. Unfortunately, the only result was that the Dutchman looked
even more confused. As the silence began to grow uncomfortable, in
desperation, the poor guy finally blurted out, "Do you speak English?"
The problem was that the GI that we had unwittingly allowed to act as
our spokesman was an Alabamian.
-Wilson
On 11/3/06, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Re: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Given that there is no officially-defined and governmentally specified
> >and sanctioned dialect of English in the United States, it's not
> >possible to speak of a correctly-spoken version of USA English.
>
> I agree. But one can speak of media Englsih.
>
> >The sounds of American English as specified by m-w.com are mrely a
> >reflection of the personal opinions of the staff of m-w.com, nothing
> >more.
>
> The same for any dictionary. Right?
>
> >Therefore, the sounds of spoken English as defined by m-w.com
> >can not be used to refute anyone else's personal opinion or any other
> >definition of what the sounds of spoken English are.
>
> Nor any dictionary, right?
>
> >Needless to say, my own pronunciation of "slang" does not correspond
> >to that described by m-w.com. Rather, I pronounce "slang" with the
> >twang (stereo)typical of most Southern speakers.
>
> M-w.com has sound files of the words. They are spoken aloud. We can argue
> if it's typical. For "slang" I think it is. It rhymes with "twang" and
> both have long a vowels.
>
> Of course Souther dialect is not the main dialect of USA though it's a
> biggie. The main dialect is well represented in w-m.com. It's on TV and
> radio every day.
>
> >-Wilson
> >
> >
> >On 11/1/06, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject: Re: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> > >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Thanks Joe,
> > >
> > > Interesting approach. Or we can just trust our own hearing to hear that
> >the
> > > vowel in "slang" and "slant" are different enough to be different
> >phonemes.
> > >
> > > It would be great if you use the actual words of m-w.com. Say "slaying"
> > > then eliminte the "i" vowel so you get "slayng." Basically that's what
> >the
> > > speaker in m-w.com is saying and that speaker is saying it correctly as
> >is
> > > spoken in USA English.
> > >
> > > Words like "anger" and "anchor" start with a long a, but in m-w.com I
> >think
> > > that speaker doesn't say that vowel all the way to long a. Basically as
> >I
> > > hear it in TV and radio media, ang/ank are typically long a.
> > >
> > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> > > See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Joseph Salmons <jsalmons at WISC.EDU>
> > > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >Subject: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> > > >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:30:45 -0600
> > > >
> > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >-----------------------
> > > >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >Poster: Joseph Salmons <jsalmons at WISC.EDU>
> > > >Subject: pre-velar /ae/ raising (was: slang/slant)
> > >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >Greetings. I've just rejoined ADS-list after being off it for a few
> > > >years, partly prompted by hearing about the interesting recent slang/
> > > >slant discussion. This 'pre-velar raising' is a topic a few of us
> > > >here in Wisconsin are starting to work on, especially Tom Purnell. I
> > > >hope this message doesn't repeat earlier discussion (or steal Tom's
> > > >thunder), but here's basically how things are looking to us right now:
> > > >
> > > >/ae/ raising before g (and usually eng/angma and sometimes before k)
> > > >can sound like either /ej/ or /E/ to outsiders, and with considerable
> > > >variation across speakers. It is creeping into awareness here, in
> > > >particular with the word 'bag', which is pretty much a stereotype of
> > > >Wisconsin speech for some people. (In addition to the Zeller article,
> > > >Labov et al. discuss it at some length in the Atlas, showing the
> > > >pattern stretching beyond Wisconsin and Minnesota, but looking
> > > >particularly strong here.) One story (I've heard it told by a noted
> > > >member of this society, but independently from others too) involves a
> > > >newcomer going into a grocery store to buy a loaf of bread and some
> > > >milk; he hears the cashier ask "Wanna beg for that?" The newcomer
> > > >wonders, "I have to beg? I just paid for it." (The Wisconsin-oriented
> > > >language blogger Mr. Verb, http://mr-verb.blogspot.com/, recently
> > > >made a pretty obscure allusion to this pattern in a post, in fact.)
> > > >We get /ae/ merging with /ej/ (the vowel of 'bay') for some speakers,
> > > >which is what Zeller reports. Still it looks like not all raisers
> > > >merge these sounds: Some seem to have the raised /ae/ coming out
> > > >close to (maybe identical with) [E], as the perceptual bag/beg
> > > >confusion would suggest. (But some people with a good ear vehemently
> > > >deny that it ever yields [E].) Some speakers with this pattern also
> > > >show really clear lowering of /ej/ before g, including in
> > > >disyllabics: vague, bagel, Reagan, segue, etc. For some, v[ae]gue in
> > > >particular is not variable -- it's just how they say that word. My
> > > >sense is that this has to be hypercorrection, but we haven't done
> > > >much on this yet, or gathered much data (though Tom's doing the
> > > >latter right now.)
> > > >
> > > >Matt Gordon raises a number of really good questions about this
> > > >process which we have just started to look at data on: Is it related
> > > >to NCS? From what we've seen so far, the answer is maybe. Note that
> > > >the NCS isn't found as far west as Minnesota, or even western
> > > >Wisconsin, where pre-velar raising is widespread. That suggests that
> > > >it's a different deal. Is it phonetically different from NCS? It is
> > > >most definitely. Is it older than NCS? We've looked at /ae/ before /
> > > >g/ and alveolars in some DARE recordings from southeast Wisconsin and
> > > >the oldest speakers show no raising in either environment. With a few
> > > >speakers born somewhat later, we get some suggestive patterns before
> > > >alveolars, like NCS (but notably too early for the usual chronology
> > > >of that shift), and none before /g/. Later, but still before NCS
> > > >should be showing up, we start seeing pre-velar raising. (For the
> > > >phonetically inclined: Tom's working out a way of calculating /ae/
> > > >raising that gets away from the simple 700 hz threshold that's been
> > > >criterial for NCS to date, but that's a topic for a paper by him, not
> > > >an ADS-list post. I suspect that Tom's approach allows us to see
> > > >earlier stirrings of NCS than the 700 hz measure.) But note that
> > > >these historical recordings are from southeastern Wisconsin -- Tom
> > > >has suggested in conversation that pre-velar raising could also have
> > > >started elsewhere (say, Minnesota) and spread down to meet NCS. If
> > > >that's so, it could be older, but then from outside of NCS territory.
> > > >
> > > >We will be working on this for some time to come and hope we'll know
> > > >more before too long. Concretely, we should soon have some audio
> > > >samples of these patterns on the Wisconsin Englishes Project page,
> > > >http://csumc.wisc.edu:16080/wep/.
> > > >
> > > >Oh, finally, Paul Johnston mentioned a possible correlation with
> > > >'pop' vs. 'soda', but that line cuts north/south through eastern
> > > >Wisconsin, so that we get this 'bag' pattern with 'soda' and 'pop'
> > > >speakers up here.
> > > >
> > > >Onward,
> > > >Joe
> > > >Center for the Study of Upper Midwestern Cultures
> > > >901 University Bay Drive
> > > >University of Wisconsin
> > > >Madison, WI 53705
> > > >http://csumc.wisc.edu/
> > > >
> > > >http://german.lss.wisc.edu/homes/jsalmons/
> > > >
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> >--
> >Everybody says, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
> >complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> >Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is knows how deep
> >a debt of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our
> >race. He brought death into the world.
> >
> >--Sam Clemens
> >
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--
Everybody says, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is knows how deep
a debt of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our
race. He brought death into the world.
--Sam Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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