who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]

[Wilson Gray]

If you're about ten years older than I am and from Lubbock, TX, "wh-
that" sentences are still possible. The guy sounded like a cowboy
extra in a '40's horse opera, eg. "... who that I was a-tellin' y'all
about." Since ten years older than I am would place him in his 80's,
there may not be many such speakers left.

-Wilson

On 8/7/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 2:44 PM -0400 8/7/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >What messes with my mind is that something that wasn't a problem when
> >I was in an all-black elementary school in the '40's and in a 99.44%
> >white high school in the the '50's, it never occurred to anyone in
> >either school to teach us that "that" couldn't be used with living
> >beings as well as with inanimate objects in restrictive relative
> >clauses.
> >
> >It seems as though someone in the '80's or whenever, with nothing
> >better to do, suddenly decided, out of the clear, blue sky, that he
> >didn't like this use of "that" with living beings and decided to make
> >up a rule saying that and to start teaching it.
> >
> >-Wilson
>
> I wonder if it would help convince such folks if we were to make the
> case that the "that" in such cases isn't really a relative pronoun at
> all but the complementizer, and so doesn't actually refer to anyone
> or anything.  On this view, "the man that came in" is just "the man
> who that came in" with the "who" deleted, while "the book which I
> read" is from "the book which that I read" with the "which" deleted,
> or suppressed, or whatever.  (As I recall, the evidence for this
> claim comes from earlier versions of English in which the "wh- that"
> sequences were possible.)
>
> Naaah.
>
> LH
>
> >.
> >
> >On 8/7/07, Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> >>  Subject:      Re: who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Aug 7, 2007, at 6:44 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >>
> >>  > Is my impression correct that there is an increasing tendency to
> >>  > refer to people using "that"?
> >>
> >>  MWDEU (1989:895): It may be that some carryover from the 18th-century
> >>  general dislike of _that_ has produced the apparently common, yet
> >>  unfounded, notion that _that_ may be used to refer only to things
> >>  [with references to Bernstein, Simon, Safire, and others either
> >>  reporting or expressing this dislike]
> >>
> >>  Garner's Modern American Usage (2003:836): _That_, of course, is
> >>  permissible when referring to humans... Editors tend, however, to
> >>  prefer [_who_]
> >>
> >>  .....
> >>
> >>  the observation is that _that_ has been in use for reference to
> >>  humans, in writing as well as speech, in formal as well as informal
> >>  english, for about two hundred years.  (until the 18th century it was
> >>  apparently the norm.)  now, whether _that_ is gaining on _who_ (and,
> >>  if so, to what degrees for which speakers/writers and in which
> >>  contexts) i don't know, though i'd imagine that the question has been
> >>  studied.  i'd start by looking at the Longman grammar.
> >>
> >>  arnold
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> >                                               -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
                                              -Sam'l Clemens

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org