"Don't shit where you eat"
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Tue Jul 10 19:31:12 UTC 2007
I wasn't generalizing. I was describing my own experiences. Of course,
it's not true that every Arab Muslim makes attempts to convert anyone.
I've known Muslim Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt who
simply minded their own business WRT religion. Some Muslim Arabs from
other places have come on to me WRT Islam when I didn't know them well
enough to be able to say what countries they came from, except in the
case of Musa ("That means 'Moses""!). a Palestinian with whom I once
shared an office. The fact that he had a black girlfriend with whom he
had a child didn't fire any interest is Islam. Another colleague, with
whom I fortunately did not share an office, was unable to sway me from
The One True Faith, despite his sharing with me offprints from learned
journals that argued that slavery under Islam was far more benign for
blacks than was slavery under Catholicism. An Arab fellow-student at
UC Davis made many vain and annoying efforts to rap to me about how
much nicer Islam is for black people than Christianity is. That is to
say, their approaches were based on race. But, even had their
approaches had not been, I would have felt hassled by the
Jehovah's-Witness approach. To paraphrase Shakespeare, the annoying
experiences with people are remembered, whereas more pleasant ones may
be forgotten.
As for my Turkish friends, birds of a feather flock together. Given
that I'm a non-practicing Catholic who hasn't been to Mass - and I
went only because my baby brother was one of the altar boys - since
some time in the '60's, it's not likely to be the case that I would
have as friends people who are practicing members of some other
religion, when I don't even have friends who are practicing Catholics.
It's hard to avoid the making of generalizing assumptions merely on
the basis of one's own limited experience, even the face of
contradictory evidence. For instance, on the basis of your name, I
assume that you're a white woman of Irish ancestry who's a Catholic,
despite the fact that I also know people with Irish names who are
black Catholics (Patricia and Kathleen Cooney), I also know of white
people with Irish names who are Protestants (Jimmy Taggart), and I
also know of men named "Beverly" (I. Beverly Lake).
Needless to say, I don't need to be schooled WRT either stereotyping
or what, for want of a better term, I'll call "reverse stereotyping,"
the assumption that the life of a black person is the same as that of
a similar white person. E.g. a white friend, despite knowing that I
was born in Texas in the 'Thirties, once asked me how long my mother
had stayed in the hospital after I was born. Being black, I wasn't
born in any hospital in Texas. Rather, I was born in a bedroom in the
house of my maternal grandparents with the aid of a midwife, as was
usual among middle-class blacks in that place at that time.
Despite my defensiveness, I concede your point.
-Wilson
On 7/10/07, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at ohio.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, Wilson. After 30 years of knowing
> and teaching Muslims from many (not just Arab) countries, I would hesitate
> to generalize about conversion tendencies (Christians _don't_ try to
> convert?!), naming patterns, or anything else about them. And "Turks
> sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English very well - which is not to
> imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they party their asses off"? _Some_
> secular Turks, yes; but religious Muslim Turks (including good friends of
> mine) are quite another matter. I take no stand on the contentious Turkish
> political situation (well, yes, I do, but that's another matter), but let's
> be careful not to stereotype cultures--we know what happened in the West
> when we did (and do) that. A little personal experience takes us "beyond
> the book," as you discovered yourself.
>
> At 05:40 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >My experience is essentially the same as yours, Jon. My experience has
> >also been that what you read is more trustworthy than conclusions that
> >you reach on your own. Back in the day, I concluded, on the basis of
> >evidence gathered from news stories, a TIME cover featuring the late
> >Charles Malik, then premier of Lebanon, and friends named "George,"
> >"Georgette," and "Louis," that all Lebanese Catholics (the Maronite
> >Church is a branch of the Catholic Church) had Western first names.
> >Some time later, I worked with a Lebanese colleague whose first name
> >was "Jamil." Given that his name was Arabic, one day I asked Jamil
> >several questions about Islam. Jamil became quite agitated and claimed
> >that he had no idea what the answers to my questions were, not even
> >what the proper Arabic pronunciation of Muhammad was. The next day,
> >and every day thereafter, Jamil came to work wearing a gold crucifix
> >around his neck. I'm a slow learner, since I had years earlier assumed
> >that an Egyptian classmate at UC Davis was a Muslim, when he was a
> >Coptic Christian.
> >
> >I've now noted a major difference: in my experience, true Muslims are
> >like Jehovah's Witnesses; they want to convert you. Christians mind
> >their own business. Turks are a notable exception to this
> >generalization. Turks sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English
> >very well - which is not to imply that Arab Muslims don't - and they
> >party their asses off. Nevertheless, they're surprised when this third
> >characteristic sometimes causes them to be mistaken for black
> >Americans.
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >On 7/9/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Hey, Wilson, I never heard of that hand thing in NYC except as an Arab
> > custom.
> > >
> > > And I had to read a book to learn that.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > See there! Ain't I done told y'all a whole lot, segregation really
> > > worked? I have never heard tell before this moment of any customary
> > > use of the left hand among the colored. In the particular case that I
> > > cite, the white guy was an Italian-American from Philadelphia named
> > > deRosa and the black guy, named Jefferson, was from Oceanside, CA,
> > > then an Army town connected to the now-defunct Fort Ord. His father
> > > was also a GI. Nevertheless, Jeff was something of a punk. The insult
> > > hurt his feelings so badly that he came back to the barracks crying.
> > > He didn't get much sympathy from the rest of us, because we'd warned
> > > his black ass not to go to the party from the BE-gin-nin'. There was
> > > no telling what might happen to a coupl'a three blacks among a crowd
> > > of drunken Northern GI's. On the other hand, Southerners who, when
> > > sober, gave us the hate stare - cf. _Black Like Me_ - tended to become
> > > "We're all Southerners together" when drunk.
> > >
> > > -Wilson
> > >
> > > On 7/7/07, Dennis Preston
> > > wrote:
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > Poster: Dennis Preston
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Wilson,
> > > >
> > > > This is an interesting joke; a common piece of racist folk stuff
> > > > where I grew up, around Louisville KY, (apparently told with some
> > > > degree of belief) was that black people shook hands with their left
> > > > hands customarily. Is (was) this widespread?
> > > >
> > > > dInIs
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >-----------------------
> > > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > >Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > > >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > > > >
> > > > >Ii agree with what you say WRT to Muslim custom. I read about it in a
> > > > >book, about fifty years ago. ;-) But wouldn't that also be true of
> > > > >Americans? Wouldn't you switch hands or put down what you were
> > > > >holding, in order to be able to shake hands with another American with
> > > > >your right hand? Or maybe I'm being hypersensitive.
> > > > >
> > > > >White guy offers right hand to black guy:
> > > > >
> > > > >"Happy New Year!"
> > > > >
> > > > >Black guy extends right hand.
> > > > >
> > > > >White guy withdraws right hand and offers left hand:
> > > > >
> > > > >"Oops! I'm sorry! I use my *left* hand to shake with niggers."
> > > > >
> > > > >-Wilson
> > > > >
> > > > >On 7/6/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >>-----------------------
> > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan
> > > > >> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > >>
> > > > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At 04:46 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
> > > > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >> >-----------------------
> > > > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > >> >Poster: Barbara Need
> > > > >> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >At 23:11 -0400 03/7/07, sagehen wrote:
> > > > >> > > >Sorry for the crude title.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>Has anyone searched to find out what the earliest version of
> > this must
> > > > >> > >>have been? I would doubt that it was that phrasing.
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>Anyone suggest what the original sentiment might have been?
> > > > >> > >>
> > > > >> > >>Sam Clements
> > > > >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > >> > >I remember reading about the Essenes or some similar group --
> > associated
> > > > >> > >with the Dead Sea Scrolls, perhaps? -- that had strictures
> > concerning the
> > > > >> > >roles of the two hands: the one that went into the communal pot
> > > > >>at mealtime
> > > > >> > >would never be the one that wiped one's bottom. Whether the
> > > > >>left was the
> > > > >> > >"clean" and the right the "unclean" I don't remember, but I
> > believe the
> > > > >> > >roles were immutable.
> > > > >> > >AM
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >I remember a month-long Sunday school sequence on the Arab world
> > > > >> >(mid-70s, Unitarian Church) in which we were instructed to eat with
> > > > >> >the right hand (no utensils!) because the left hand was traditionally
> > > > >> >used to wipe oneself.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Barbara
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >Barbara Need
> > > > >> >UChicago
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Still true for Muslims. If I'm holding something in my right hand and
> > > > >> unthinkingly shake hands with a Muslim student with my left hand, I
> > > > >> immediately know I've committed a faux pas from the look on the
> > face of my
> > > > >> student.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > > > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > > >-----
> > > > > -Sam'l Clemens
> > > > >
> > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis R. Preston
> > > > University Distinguished Professor
> > > > Department of English
> > > > Morrill Hall 15-C
> > > > Michigan State University
> > > > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > -----
> > > -Sam'l Clemens
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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