Loose cannon (1889)

[Sarah Lang]

I stand corrected, and thanks for the book recommendation.

What about this usage (different, I know--but could it be related?):

"During the action, the enemy had thrown into our gun-room a number
of loose cannon cartridges, in order, as they afterwards owned, to
blow us up" (229).

Voyages to the South Seas, Indian and Pacific Oceans, China Sea,
North-West Coast, Feejee Islands, South Shetlands, &c by Edmund Fanning
(First ed. published in 1833 under title: Voyages round the world;
1924 ed.: Voyages and discoveries in the South Seas, 1792-1832.)

On May 17, 2007, at 9:05 PM, Dave Wilton wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Loose cannon (1889)
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>
> I'm not at all surprised. Many words and phrases with commonly
> supposed
> nautical origins are not nautical at all and appear much later than
> one
> would suppose. In this case, the metaphor is indeed nautical but
> there is
> zero evidence that the lexical item "loose cannon" was actually a
> component
> of nautical speech. Instead, it appears to have been coined by non-
> sailors
> familiar with the Hugo novel (in which it does not appear as a lexical
> item).
>
> And the Isil book is a horrible, horrible book. I don't expect
> scholarly
> research in a popular book like this, but some kind of research
> would be
> nice. She just makes stuff up. I'm all for "fun"
> books about language, but they should have a basis in reality.
>
> If you want a good book on nautical language for the layperson, try
> "A Sea
> of Words" by Dean King. It's written as a companion for Patrick
> O'Brian's
> Aubrey-Maturin novels.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of
> Sarah Lang
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:40 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Loose cannon (1889)
>
> 19thc. seems late. I would doubt it was not in usage during even the
> 17thc. (maybe even 16th)--as a "loose a can(n)on is rather serious
> problem. I think it would be a question of when nautical speech was
> recorded.
>
> (Also: when a Loose Cannon Flogs a Dead Horse There's the Devil to
> Pay: Seafaring Words in Everyday Speech--Olivia A. Isil. Not
> academic, but a good and entreating starting place.)
>
> s.
>
> On May 17, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote:
>
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>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: Loose cannon (1889)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> ---------
>>
>> Quoting Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET>:
>>
>>> OED3 and HDAS have 1946.
>>>
>>> From the _Galveston Daily News_ (Texas), 19 December 1889
>>> (newspaperarchive.com):
>>>
>>> "It would in no event become, as Mr. Grady once said, "a loose
>>> cannon in a
>>> storm-tossed ship," for the very reason that it has not
>>> intelligence enough
>>> to voluntarily stand alone as a class and vote as a political unit.
>>>
>>> The metaphor may also be credited to Victor Hugo, who in his 1874
>>> novel
>>> _Ninety Three_, included an incident about a cannon loose on the
>>> deck of
>>> ship during a storm.
>>
>> Google books gives from Number seventeen: A Noevl [sic, though not
>> so on the
>> title page} by Henry Kingsley,  London, vol. 2, (apparently-
>> legitimate) date
>> 1875, p.60:
>>
>> At once, of course, the ship was in the trough of the sea, a more
>> fearfully
>> dangerous engine of destruction than Mr. Victor Hugo's celebrated
>> loose
>> cannon.
>> ...
>>
>> Stephen Goranson
>> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
>>
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