From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:02:35 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:02:35 -0400 Subject: snowclone: A by B, C by D In-Reply-To: <200709301407.l8UAkG7E028155@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not relevant, but I found myself thinking "One if by land, two if by sea." Yeah, as my lady says, time to get off the computer and go to bed. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:07:10 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:07:10 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200710010144.l8UAkGR9028157@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So you did it your way. m a m On 9/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > But my way's better. > > JL > > Laurence Horn wrote: > > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name > > another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > > > for nothin' left to lose." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 02:31:00 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:31:00 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <116231.70548.qm@web53907.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:44 PM -0700 9/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But my way's better. > > JL I wouldn't mess with that Kristoffersen fellow. He looks like he wouldn't mess with easily. LH >Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >>that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >>to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! >> >> Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name > >another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > >> for nothin' left to lose." >> >> Say what? >> >> JL >> >>Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: "Nothing to lose" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." >> >>The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: >> >>"Nothing beats a try but a failure." >> >>For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >>"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >>whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >>understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >>you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >>possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >>you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >>doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >>because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. >> >>-Wilson >>-- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Sam'l Clemens >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >>Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get >listings, and more! > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 01:44:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:44:16 -0700 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200710010014.l8UJ00FD003720@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But my way's better. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Nothing to lose" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > for nothin' left to lose." > > Say what? > > JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." > >The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: > >"Nothing beats a try but a failure." > >For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. > >-Wilson >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 00:10:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:10:03 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <82745f630709301419k745cce25ofa7ac60c8266b230@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >in Dutch of the "Seventies. > >-Wilson An anecdote along the same lines: During my first week in Paris on my junior year abroad in '63, with my many years of grade school, high school, and college French under my belt, I found myself in a subway station with the compelling need to inquire of someone "Où est la salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous derision: "Une salle de bains dans le métro?!?" Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I eventually learned that I should have asked for "la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have done the job as well. LH > >On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Doug Harris >> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >> when that was the price of admission to a "public >> convenience". >> (the other) doug >> >> --- >> >> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >> >> Paul Johnston wrote: >> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be fine. >> > As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually got my >> > questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by a >> > repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >> > Rellingford Road to get there." >> > >> > Paul Johnston >> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where the >> >> subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same issue? BB >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:14:27 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:14:27 -0400 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <200709292119.l8TAk9MU005417@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song lyrics as transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's spelling and punctuation are already pretty bad. my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me were friends like you, This other one is unclear ( http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 02:20:02 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:20:02 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "WASP" Message-ID: Barry Popik has previously pushed the earliest known usage of _WASP_ back to May 1957. Here is a significantly earlier occurrence in ProQuest's Black American Newspapers: 1948 _New York Amsterdam News_ 17 Apr. 1 In America, we find the WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) ganging up to take their frustrations out on whatever minority group happens to be handy -- whether Negro, Catholic, Jewish, Japanese, or what not. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Oct 1 01:02:49 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:02:49 -0500 Subject: Whiz (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: And the military expression used at formal affairs, "Water the horses," although that may have been purely a cavalry thing. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" A lady (and I use the word in its best sense) I used to work with once told me she "had to go see a man about a mule". It took a while for me to figure out that she went to the bathroom. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 00:14:24 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:14:24 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <394758.813.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > for nothin' left to lose." > > Say what? > > JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." > >The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: > >"Nothing beats a try but a failure." > >For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. > >-Wilson >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 00:01:02 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:01:02 -0700 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200709302040.l8UJ00wL003720@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name for nothin' left to lose." Say what? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: "Nothing to lose" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Barrett wrote: "... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: "Nothing beats a try but a failure." For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the "obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 00:09:36 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 01:09:36 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200709302044.l8UAkGnb018202@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Doug Harris wrote: > As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, > they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having > no intention whatsoever of bathing, [...] I may have already told the story, from my time in Paris, of how I got into something very close to an argument with one of my closest friends at the time, an American, over whether there was a mirror in my bathroom: I *knew* that the object in question existed, right over the washbasin, next to the tub; she insisted there was no mirror whatsoever in my bathroom ... only the toilet facilities themselves. (When that was cleared up I asked somewhat testily how she would call a room whose primary purpose was to take baths in, complete with a lovely sit-down tub. She sort of saw the rationale behind my calling it "bathroom", but decided on "washroom" in the end.) Another story is that of the young US exchange student, first time abroad, who a friend of mine was part of an unofficial welcome committee for. He arrived on a British Airways flight, and had felt rather offended by hearing the flight attendants referring to the location of the "toilets". One of our group didn't even understand what his problem was and launched into a long explanation about how it was indeed the flight attendants' job to direct passengers to the location of the toilets, and didn't he prefer being told beforehand instead of having to figure it out on his own from the seating plan? On a different note, as far as euphemisms for toilets go, I found it surprisingly easy to adapt to the Canadian "washroom" -- I believe because using the facilities in fact includes the act of washing (at least my hands, sometimes my face); however, certainly not bathing. Even now, if I am unsure about the squeamishness level of the company I'm in and therefore need a more obscuring euphemism than I'd normally use, "washroom" is it. (In the office where I work in London, "loo" and "toilet" would be the two most common terms.) As for South African English, the most striking feature I've come across (in addition to raising just about every [@] -- the 'cat' vowel -- to [E] -- the 'bed' vowel) to is "just now". This adverbial designates a point in time somewhere within the line of sight of "now" (past or future). It does not, however, imply immediate proximity. So "I'll do it just now" means about the same as "I'm putting it on my to-do list and will get to it at some point in the foreseeable future". It doesn't mean "I'll get started on it right away". Similarly, "they had a child just now" can refer to a situation where the child in question is a few months or even years old. (If "just now" isn't good enough, a task can be requested to be done "now now", which means, well, now.) Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 1 04:22:44 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 00:22:44 -0400 Subject: antedating reinikaboo (1898) In-Reply-To: <20070928114457.ogs7c0656o4ks0w0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Is the etymology of "reinikaboo" known? [If not, I see a candidate.] -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: 9/29/2007 9:46 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 08:43:06 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 04:43:06 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) Message-ID: Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. ... I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/cup_cake_cupcake/ ... Entry from October 01, 2007 Cup Cake (Cupcake) The origin of the "cup cake" (or "cupcake") is unknown, but the food name appears in American cookbooks, beginning in 1828. It is possible that the cupcake originated in the northeast, possibly in New York. In 2007, an effort was made to name the cupcake the official New York state snack. Wikipedia: Cupcake A cupcake or fairy cake is a small cake designed to serve one person, usually made in a small paper cup container. As with larger cakes, frosting and other cake decorations, such as sprinkles, are defining characteristics of modern cupcakes. Some scholars have defined the cupcake as: a muffin, with frosting on top. Cupcakes are often served during a celebration, such as children's classroom birthday parties. Additionally they can be served as an accompaniment to afternoon tea. They are a more convenient alternative to cake because they don't require utensils or dividing into pieces because they are smaller. A simple cupcake uses the same ingredients as most other standard cakes - incorporating butter, sugar, eggs, and flour. The name "cup" cakes or "measure" cakes is believed to have developed because of the use of the practice of measuring the ingredients using a standard-sized cup instead of the previous practice of weighing the ingredients. It is also possible that cupcakes came into being simply as smaller versions of the Victoria sponge cake, as the mixture required is exactly the same. The mixture is also the same as the quarter cake recipe, so called because it is made up of four ingredients in equal ratios; butter, self-raising flour, eggs and Castor sugar. Fox News New York Politician Proposes Bill to Help Rescue the Cupcake From School Bans Friday, September 28, 2007 By Catherine Donaldson-Evans AP Save the cupcake! That's what one New York state assemblyman intends to do with proposed legislation aimed at reversing several school districts' bans on the sweet treat at classroom parties, fundraising bake sales and other events. Assemblyman Michael Benjamin, a Democrat from the Bronx, N.Y., is introducing a bill Friday that would make the cupcake the official New York state snack — and thus protect it from the bans that are becoming increasingly widespread as a way to combat childhood obesity and diabetes. "Making the cupcake the official state children's snack is my way of saying, 'Let's put some brakes on what's happening to the cupcake,'" Benjamin said in a phone interview. "The way the American eagle is the official national bird and it's illegal to harm one — my thought is, you make the cupcake something similar, and leave the cupcake alone."' A number of schools in Long Island, N.Y., elsewhere in New York and across the country in states including Texas, New Jersey and California have put the kibosh on the mini-cakes for classroom birthday and other parties, claiming they're key offenders in the growing child obesity and diabetes problems. The new rules are also a way to comply with state nutrition guidelines, like the one passed in New York last spring. (Oxford English Dictionary) cup-cake orig. U.S., a cake baked from ingredients measured by the cupful, or baked in a small (freq. paper) cup; 1828 E. LESLIE Receipts 61 *Cup Cake. 1886 Harper's Mag. Dec. 134/2 Cousin Carry with her eternal cup-cake. 1887 M. E. WILKINS Humble Romance 271 Mis' Steele made some cup-cake to-day… She put a cup of butter and two whole cups of sugar in it. 1907 Mrs. Beeton's All about Cookery (new ed.) 216/2 Cup Cakes, Plain (American Recipe)..3 level cupfuls of flour, 1 cupful of sugar, a cupful of butter, 1 cupful of milk… Bake in shallow tins or small cups. Feeding America American Cookery by Amelia Simmons Hartford, CT: Printed for Simeon Butler, Northampton 1798 Pg. 37: A light cake to bake in small cups. Half a pound sugar, half a pound butter, rubbed (Pg. 38—ed.) into two pounds flour, one glass wine, one do. rose water, two do. emptins, a nutmeg, cinnamon and currants. Feeding America Seventy-Five Receipts for Pastry, Cakes, and Sweetmeats by Eliza Leslie Boston, MA: Munroe and Francis 1832 (first edition 1828) Pg. 61: CUP CAKE. Five eggs. Two large tea-cups full of molasses. The same of brown sugar rolled fine. The same of fresh butter. One cup of rich milk. Five cups of flour sifted. Half a cup of powdered allspice and cloves. Half a cup of ginger. Cut up the butter in the milk, and warm them slightly. Warm also the molasses, and stir it into the milk and butter: then stir in, gradually, the sugar, and set it away to get cool. Beat the eggs very light, and stir them into the mixture alternately with the flour. Add the ginger and other spice, and stir the whole very hard. Butter small tins, nearly fill them with the mixture, and bake the cakes in a moderate overn. 28 January 1828, Connecticut Courant (Hartford, CT), pg. 2: >From the N. York National Advocate. (...) The luxury of an old fashioned tea party, consisted of a cup of souchong, plate of toast, grated pot cheese, quince sweetmeats, family ginger-bread, (cup cake was a great treat,) now and then is sweat short cake hot from the griddle, all served upon a neatly polished cherry table around which the company sat, and partook with such freedom as at that period, was the surest guarantee of disinterested friendship. Feeding America The Frugal Housewife by Lydia Maria Francis Child Boston, MA: Carter and Hendee 1830 Pg. 75: CUP CAKE. Cup cake is about as good as pound cake, and is cheaper. One cup of butter, two cups of sugar, three cups of flour, and four eggs, well beat together, and baked in pans or cups. Bale twenty minutes and no more. Feeding America The Cook Not Mad (Author Unknown) Watertown, NY: Knowlton & Rice 1831 Pg. 35: Cup Cake Four cups of flour, three of sugar, two of butter, one of milk, small tea spoonful of pearlash, spoonful of ginger, essence of lemon. Google Books MacKenzie's Five Thousand Receipts in all the Useful and Domestic Arts by an American Physician Philadelphia: James Kay 1831 Pg. 415: Cup cake. 3 cups of sugar, 1 cup of butter, 2 tea spoons of pearlash, 3 eggs, 5 cups of flour; all together with as much spice as you please. Google Books The Young House-Keeper, Or, Thoughts on Food and Cookery by Wm. A. Alcott Fourth Stereotype Edition Boston, MA: George W. Light 1839 Pg. 404: CUP CAKE.—Two cups of cream or milk, two of sugar, two of unbolted wheat meal, one of rice flour, and a tea spoonful of salt. Beat it thoroughly, put it into cups, and bake it half an hour. Feeding America Directions for Cookery by Eliza Leslie Philadelphia, PA: E. L. Carey & Hart 1840 Pg. 354 WHITE CUP CAKE.—Measure one large coffee cup of cream or rich milk, (which, for this cake, is best when sour,) one cup of fresh butter; two cups of powdered white sugar; and four cups of sifted flour. Stir the butter and sugar together till quite light; then by degrees add the cream, alternately with half the flour. Beat five eggs as light as possible, and stir them into the mixture, alternately with the remainder of the flour. Add a grated nutmeg and a large tea-spoonful of powdered cinnamon, with eight drops of oil of lemon. Lastly, stir in a very small tea-spoonful of sal-aratus or pearl-ash, melted in a little vinegar or luke-warm water. Having stirred the whole very hard, put it into little tins; set them in a moderate oven, and bake them about twenty minutes. 10 April 1840, Baltimore (MD) Sun, pg. 2: ...gave Mrs. Goines a cup-cake and a custard,... Google Books The American Frugal Housewife by Lydia Maria Francis Child New York, NY: Samuel S. & William Wood Twenty-Seventh Edition 1841 Pg. 71: CUP CAKE. Cup cake is about as good as pound cake, and is cheaper. One cup of butter, two cups of sugar, three cups of flour, and four eggs, well beat together, and baked in pans or cups. Bake twenty minutes, and no more. Google Books The American Housewife: Containing the Most Valuable and Original Receipts in all the Various Branches of Cookery By An Experienced Lady New York, NY: Dayton and Saxton 1841 Pg. 68: Cup Cake. Mix three tea-cups of sugar with one and a half of butter. When white, beat three eggs, and stir them into the butter and sugar, together with three tea-cups of sifted flour, and rosewater or essence of lemon to the taste. Dissolve a teaspoonful of saleratus in a tea-cup of milk, strain it into the cake, then add three more tea-cups of sifted flour. Bake the cake immediately, either in cups of pans. Feeding America The Housekeepers' Assistant by Ann Allen Boston, MA: J. Munroe 1845 Pg. 20: CUP CAKE. 1 cup of butter, 2 cups of sugar, 3 cups of flour, 4 eggs, 1 cup of cream, 1 teaspoonful of saleratus. Season with nutmeg, essence of lemon, or cinnamon, to your own taste, and mix the ingredients together as above. Rosewater is always an improvement to cake; but when more liquid is added, it will be necessary to add more flour. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 10:28:18 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:28:18 -0400 Subject: antedating reinikaboo (1898) In-Reply-To: <20071001042244.SEGU660.mta10.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: Quoting "Douglas G. Wilson" : > Is the etymology of "reinikaboo" known? > > [If not, I see a candidate.] > > -- Doug Wilson Do tell. I have no serious candidate, nor have seen one. In case it's of interest, the text Jesse alluded to (I guess) is: Arizona Sketches...Why Wolfville Lied When Whisky Bill Died By ALFRED HENRY LEWIS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 23, 1896. p. 14 (1 page). It begins: "Lies in the lump [?] that away," said the Old Cattleman, apropos of some slight discussion we were engaged in, "is bad, an' make no doubt about it--that is, lies which is told malevolent. "Now, thar's a sort of rannikaboo liar on earth, an' I don't mind him nor his fabrications none whatever. That's one of these yere amiable gents who's merely aimin' to entertain you, an' sorter spreads himse'f an' gets plumb excursive in conversation, castin' loose from facts as vain things onworthy of him. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 10:15:47 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:15:47 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Barry Popik : > Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State > snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. > ... > I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone > have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? > ... Apparently the earliest in 19th C US Newspapers is The North American and Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia, PA) Thursday, April 09, 1840; Issue 325; col E City News Reported for the North American Category: News Children poisoned....a small custard pie and a cup cake.... Stephen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Oct 1 14:46:02 2007 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:46:02 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne --On Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:10 pm -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >> He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >> bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >> about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >> enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >> take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >> alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >> borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >> in Dutch of the "Seventies. >> >> -Wilson > > An anecdote along the same lines: > During my first week in Paris on my junior year > abroad in '63, with my many years of grade > school, high school, and college French under my > belt, I found myself in a subway station with the > compelling need to inquire of someone "Où est la > salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous > derision: "Une salle de bains dans le métro?!?" > Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out > the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I > eventually learned that I should have asked for > "la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have > done the job as well. > > LH > >> >> On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the >>> mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Doug Harris >>> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------- >>> >>> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >>> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >>> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >>> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >>> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >>> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >>> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >>> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >>> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >>> when that was the price of admission to a "public >>> convenience". >>> (the other) doug >>> >>> --- >>> >>> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >>> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >>> >>> Paul Johnston wrote: >>> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >>> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be >>> > fine. As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually >>> > got my questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by >>> > a repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >>> > Rellingford Road to get there." >>> > >>> > Paul Johnston >>> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> > >>> >> >>> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where >>> >> the subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same >>> >> issue? BB >>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From msacks at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 1 14:06:32 2007 From: msacks at THEWORLD.COM (Mark Sacks) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:06:32 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200709292244.l8TAk9PK005417@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could simply have been a nerd. I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. Marc Sacks msacks at theworld.com The question, > > "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in > American > > was re-interpreted as: > > "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 14:12:25 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy Message-ID: i seem not to have gotten Michael Covarrubias's original posting on this expression and so repeated the very item he posted there. my apologies. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 1 13:24:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:24:35 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. Joel At 10/1/2007 10:46 AM, you wrote: >If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet >misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue >on Separated by a Common Language: > > > >Lynne > >--On Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:10 pm -0400 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >>>He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >>>bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >>>about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >>>enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >>>take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >>>alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >>>borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >>>in Dutch of the "Seventies. >>> >>>-Wilson >> >>An anecdote along the same lines: >>During my first week in Paris on my junior year >>abroad in '63, with my many years of grade >>school, high school, and college French under my >>belt, I found myself in a subway station with the >>compelling need to inquire of someone "Où est la >>salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous >>derision: "Une salle de bains dans le métro?!?" >>Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out >>the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I >>eventually learned that I should have asked for >>"la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have >>done the job as well. >> >>LH >> >>> >>>On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the >>>>mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Doug Harris >>>> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>-------- >>>> >>>> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >>>> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >>>> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >>>> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >>>> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >>>> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >>>> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >>>> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >>>> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >>>> when that was the price of admission to a "public >>>> convenience". >>>> (the other) doug >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >>>> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >>>> >>>> Paul Johnston wrote: >>>> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >>>> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be >>>> > fine. As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually >>>> > got my questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by >>>> > a repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >>>> > Rellingford Road to get there." >>>> > >>>> > Paul Johnston >>>> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where >>>> >> the subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same >>>> >> issue? BB >>>> >> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>----- >>> -Sam'l Clemens >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language >Arts B135 >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QN > >phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 >http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Mon Oct 1 14:15:45 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:15:45 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011324.l91Albqn001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. ---------- If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where English is the principal language. I perceive their language (and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? (the other) doug ================ Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 14:46:56 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:46:56 -0700 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <021c01c80435$8f465c70$03fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Doug Harris wrote: > Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings > such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, > and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this one looks like female/male. "talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. "steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 1 14:19:32 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:19:32 -0400 Subject: Reinikaboo (speculative etymology) In-Reply-To: <20071001082314.dhuws4opw0gsgs4o@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: This is just a possibility. "Reinikaboo" would seem to mean "prank" or "scam" or so. There is an old European folklore figure, a trickster fox commonly called Reynard. The German name is generally Reine[c]ke. Apparently Dickens popularized this figure in "The Story of Reineke the Fox" [in _Household Words_ (1851 I think)], apparently a prose translation of Goethe's epic poem "Reineke Fuchs" (1794). There were also other English translations of "Reineke Fuchs". The Reynard story was also published (in German/Dutch) in other forms during the 19th century, with titles "Reineke Fuchs", "Reineke Vos", etc. "Reineke" is a plausible etymon for a word like "renicky" which is one of the forms given in DARE. This could have been taken from Dickens or from some other version of the story, or from an intermediate source (e.g., children's book, stage play). Possibly the optional/variable "-boo" is just "boo" (cf. "peekaboo", etc.). Or maybe it's descended from "Fuchs" or equivalent. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: 10/1/2007 10:20 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Oct 1 14:28:32 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:28:32 -0500 Subject: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200709292234.l8TAk9Io030133@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE And the first recorded tennis game was in the Bible: Joseph served in Pharaoh's court. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 5:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > You obviously have not heard the old joke about why the Wise > Men were dressed in Firemen's clothes - the came from afar. > > dInIs (who finds the really heavy duty accents here in Michigan) > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Doug Harris > >Subject: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > >------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > >-------- > > > >'Got a phone call yesterday on our business line, clearly > from a call > >center, based on the amount of chatter in the background. I couldn't > >hear who the caller said she was representing, and I was totally > >befuddled by her question: > >"Who's yer far chiff?" > >I asked several times for her to repeat, then gave up in > frustration, > >said I didn't know, and hung up. > >As I did so, I recalled that for some odd reason, that line has been > >known to be called by people seeking our tiny village's fire > >department. > >The light went on: She was enquiring as to our _fire chief_. > >--- > >She's got _some_ heavy-duty accent! > > (the other) doug > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 12:23:14 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:23:14 -0400 Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) Message-ID: If Live Search showing The Kansas Historical Quarterly, Autumn 1960, "Some Notes on Kansas Cow Town Police Officers and Gun Fighters," N.H. Miller and J.W Snell, p.302 f, here p.326 quoting the Ford County Globe, September 5, 1879, can be relied upon (I guess yes): [headline:] A Day of Carnival ....last Friday in Dodge City.... extricating ourselves from that stupid lethargy which had fallen upon us of late, and were giving vent to our uncurbed hilarity--"getting to the booze joint," as it were, in good shape, and "making a ranikaboo play for ourselves." We speak in the plural number.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 12:16:11 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:16:11 -0400 Subject: An "ode" Message-ID: A reviewer in yesterday's Boston Globe writes: "... a he-said, she-said dialogue ... called, ... _in ode to_ Chekhov, "He and She." I'd write, "in honor of," "in homage to," "as an hommage to," but usage may have changed since the last time that I had to write other than to a friend or a sibling. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From tpratt at UPEI.CA Mon Oct 1 12:40:18 2007 From: tpratt at UPEI.CA (Terry Pratt) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:40:18 -0300 Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award In-Reply-To: <200710010400.l8UAkGDV018202@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award for the support of lexicographical study and research is again being offered by the Dictionary Society of North America for 2008. Funded by DSNA member and fellow Laurence Urdang, the Award will support one or more lexicographical projects during the year 2008 with awards ranging from $500 to $2500. Applicants must be current members of the Dictionary Society of North America. The budget may include costs of travel, tuition, materials, subsistence, and related expenses. The proposal should include the following parts: Project name. Applicant's name and address. A statement of the project's immediate goals and expected long- range results. A description of the methodology or procedures to be used. A summary budget of total expenses for the project. An identification of other sources of support available for the project. A one-page biographical resume for the applicant. The proposal should total no more than three pages, single-spaced, including the one-page resume. The proposal should be sent (with a self-addressed, stamped postcard for acknowledgment) to current DSNA President PROF. TERRY PRATT, 932 PETERS ROAD, RR#3, BONSHAW, P.E.I. C0A 1C0, CANADA (address must be all in caps) or e-mailed to tpratt at upei.ca. It must be received by December 1, 2007. Awards will be bestowed and full payments sent early in 2008. The Society requests that it be sent copies of any publications arising from the Award. 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award The two 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award winners are Dabney A. Bankert (Department of English, James Madison University) is a professor of Medieval English, and Stefan Dollinger (Department of English, University of British Columbia), editor for the revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles. Professor Bankert will use her award in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities to examine the correspondence between Bosworth and Dutch philologists and theologians concerning the making of his famous Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language during the period 1829-1840. Dr. Dollinger is undertaking a revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms. The award will facilitate examining entries in the letters “A” and “C” where errors had been discussed in correspondence between the publisher and editors in 1969. The Dictionary of Canadianisms is a major source of data about English in North America. Terry Pratt 932 Peters Road, Elmwood RR#3 Bonshaw, PEI C0A 1C0 Canada 902-675-3672 FAX 902-566-0363 tpratt at upei.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Oct 1 15:20:33 2007 From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET (David Donnell) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:20:33 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011415.l91AmBxV001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The favorite of my 88 year old mom, from southeastern MO: "pointers & setters" (The latter being the gender which most often 'sets' down to pee. Of course.) DD Missourian in NYC >---------- > >Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. >---------- >If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to >have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where >English is the principal language. I perceive their language >(and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty >sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? >(the other) doug > >================ >Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or >"Ladies' Room" for public facilities any >more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 1 15:19:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:19:57 +0000 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: I agree Surely the Gricean principles are not limited to the USA. In a parallel instance of pragmatic uncooperativeness: Salesman: Hi! I'm Willy Lowman and I am selling shoes. . Resistant, sarcastic stranger: I.m not. Perhaps "Can you use" is an American idiom not used elsewhere (perhaps not). But it seems to me that most of the examples of "miscommunication" offered in this thread are no more than amusing examples of nerdiness, sarcasm, insufficient context, or in attention. ------Original Message------ From: Mark Sacks Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Two other countries separated by a common language I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could simply have been a nerd. I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. Marc Sacks msacks at theworld.com The question, > > "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in > American > > was re-interpreted as: > > "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 13:38:22 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:38:22 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011324.l91Albqn001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or > "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any > more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > > Joel Asking for the "Gents'" or the "Ladys'" is pretty common here in England. I just don't seem to have picked up the habit. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 13:30:00 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: Job titles Message-ID: Job titles supplied by a 77-year-old woman who holds this job (well, it's not as though her clients actually *see* her!): "Phone-sex conversationalist" or "Fantasy phone actress" -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 13:35:48 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:35:48 -0700 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10709301914j61b934a8o32d392f4c17c95c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( > http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song > lyrics as > transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's > spelling and > punctuation are already pretty bad. > > my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me > were > friends like you, it took me a while to figure out that the model was "go-to guy". does Haystak actually say "gold tooth guy", or was this a mishearing? > This other one is unclear ( > http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): > > Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting > conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) also, at http://girlfawkes1.blogspot.com/ for 9/28/07: I came across a new saying a couple of days ago. I was walking behind two guys on Ludlow Ave, and I was shamelessly eavesdropping on their conversation. One guy was talking about how he used to be the best football player on his high school team. He was saying how he would do anything for the team and the team really counted on him to do whatever they needed. Then he said something that truly perplexed me. He said, "Man, I was the Gold Tooth Guy." What? What on earth could this possibly mean? He clearly said Gold Tooth Guy. His friend just nodded in recognition,so he must have known what it meant. Then I realized that this man meant that he was the Go To Guy on the team. [followed by query about the correct linguistic term, and a discussion of what "go-to guy" means] .... otherwise, the hits seem to be about guys who are picked out by their having a gold tooth/gold teeth. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 15:30:39 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:30:39 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011447.l91AkiF7010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i > ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this > one looks like female/male. > > "talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one > order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. > > "steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more > than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially > unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. > > ... while heifers are presumed to be barely sexually mature. Chris Waigl neither-nor ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Oct 1 15:43:12 2007 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:43:12 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011530.l91AlbG7001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm reminded of the man whose ambition was to open a restaurant, label the restrooms "Clams" and "Oysters", and watch people go nuts trying to figure out which one to use. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 1 15:02:18 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:02:18 +0000 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" ... Probably does not translate well (eg, "salle d'hommes"?) ------Original Message------ From: Chris F Waigl Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 1, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Two other countries separated by a common language Joel S. Berson wrote: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or > "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any > more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > > Joel Asking for the "Gents'" or the "Ladys'" is pretty common here in England. I just don't seem to have picked up the habit. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 1 14:24:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) -- another 1828 In-Reply-To: <20071001061547.565gbgmnwgocggk8@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Early American Newspapers gives me 28 hits for "cupcake" before 1841, but they are full of ... no, not cream, nor what you're expecting (the leavings of the pony), but false positives. One "caresses" and several "Captain"s, "superior"s, and "Chesapeake"s (well, the last is somewhat close!) But the last of the 28 is a success, equidating the OED: The luxury of an old fashioned tea party, consisted of a cup of souchong, plate of toast, grated pot cheese, quince sweetmeats, family ginger-bread, (cup cake was a great treat,) now and then a sweet short cake hot from the griddle, all served upon a neatly polished cherry table around which the company sat, and partook with such freedom as at that period, was the surest guarantee of disinterested friendship. How different are assemblages of the kind in our day. Connecticut Courant, 28 Jan. 1828, page 2, col. 6. [The article is "from the N. York National Advocate" and begins "Ancient and Modern--When we contemplate how materially times have altered, within fifty years ..." -- hinting that one should look for cup cakes in New York as early as circa 1780!?] Joel At 10/1/2007 06:15 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Quoting Barry Popik : > >>Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State >>snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. >>... >>I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone >>have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? >>... > >Apparently the earliest in 19th C US Newspapers is >The North American and Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia, PA) Thursday, >April 09, >1840; Issue 325; col E > City News Reported for the North American >Category: News >Children poisoned....a small custard pie and a cup cake.... > >Stephen > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 16:39:13 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:39:13 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0400 10/1/07, David Donnell wrote: >The favorite of my 88 year old mom, from southeastern MO: "pointers & setters" > >(The latter being the gender which most often 'sets' down to pee. Of course.) > ...and a third door marked "poinsetters", for shy pre-op transsexuals. LH > >>---------- >> >>Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >>such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >>and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. >>---------- >>If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to >>have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where >>English is the principal language. I perceive their language >>(and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty >>sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? >>(the other) doug >> >>================ >>Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or >>"Ladies' Room" for public facilities any >>more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. >> >>Joel >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 18:48:20 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:48:20 -0400 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <200710011336.l91AmBsh001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here, it might depend upon race. There has never been a time when gold teeth have been out of style among blacks. (I was surprised to read in some history of fashion or other that, in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth centuries, bejeweled, gold crowned teeth were also quite popular among le haut-mond blanc.) When I was a child, there was a family friend who had gold crowns on all thirty-two. Having a gold tooth or gold teeth wouldn't necessarily pick anybody out of a crowd of black people, whence the addition of gemstones, etc., to one's grill, in order to stand out. I have three gold teeth, myself, and I'm expecting to get three more. Admittedly, I'm not doing it merely as a fashion statement, since the gold crowns cover and will cover only damaged molars and premolars. But, when the offa-donnis told me that I could get either gold or the other stuff for the same astonishing co-pay of 500 bucks, it took me only the time necessary to fire up my speech organs to go for the gold. -Wilson On 10/1/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Gold Tooth Guy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sep 30, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( > > http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song > > lyrics as > > transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's > > spelling and > > punctuation are already pretty bad. > > > > my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me > > were > > friends like you, > > it took me a while to figure out that the model was "go-to guy". > does Haystak actually say "gold tooth guy", or was this a mishearing? > > > This other one is unclear ( > > http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): > > > > Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting > > conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) > > also, at http://girlfawkes1.blogspot.com/ for 9/28/07: > > I came across a new saying a couple of days ago. I was walking behind > two guys on Ludlow Ave, and I was shamelessly eavesdropping on their > conversation. One guy was talking about how he used to be the best > football player on his high school team. He was saying how he would > do anything for the team and the team really counted on him to do > whatever they needed. Then he said something that truly perplexed me. > He said, "Man, I was the Gold Tooth Guy." What? What on earth could > this possibly mean? He clearly said Gold Tooth Guy. His friend just > nodded in recognition,so he must have known what it meant. Then I > realized that this man meant that he was the Go To Guy on the team. > [followed by query about the correct linguistic term, and a > discussion of what "go-to guy" means] > > .... > > otherwise, the hits seem to be about guys who are picked out by their > having a gold tooth/gold teeth. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 1 20:15:30 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:15:30 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011410.l91AmBwR001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Speech-act jokes are even beneath puns. dInIs PS: No offense Larry. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Mark Sacks >Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could >simply have been a nerd. > >I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In >the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major >who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the >ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. > >Marc Sacks >msacks at theworld.com > >The question, >> >> "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in >> American >> >> was re-interpreted as: >> >> "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 1 20:17:28 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:17:28 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011447.l91AkiF7010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: arnold, My UG students a year ago didn't even know the sex of cows, let alone the ball-less status of steers. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Oct 1, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Doug Harris wrote: > >> Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >> such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >> and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. > >this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i >ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this >one looks like female/male. > >"talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one >order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. > >"steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more >than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially >unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 22:13:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:13:16 -0700 Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) In-Reply-To: <200710011223.l91AmBnJ001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to the HDAS files the 1879 quote is correct. JL ote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Stephen Goranson Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Live Search showing The Kansas Historical Quarterly, Autumn 1960, "Some Notes on Kansas Cow Town Police Officers and Gun Fighters," N.H. Miller and J.W Snell, p.302 f, here p.326 quoting the Ford County Globe, September 5, 1879, can be relied upon (I guess yes): [headline:] A Day of Carnival ....last Friday in Dodge City.... extricating ourselves from that stupid lethargy which had fallen upon us of late, and were giving vent to our uncurbed hilarity--"getting to the booze joint," as it were, in good shape, and "making a ranikaboo play for ourselves." We speak in the plural number.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 2 00:22:13 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:22:13 -0400 Subject: Capital Crime In-Reply-To: A<001501c8024a$98d9dfb0$6701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: I'd say it's just an error. Black's Law Dictionary defines "capital crime" or "capital offense" as "A crime for which the death penalty may be imposed." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Capital Crime Is "capital crime" being defined as homicide, as opposed to any crime which is punishable by death? Or is the following just an error? From today's Slate, "Deception at the Supreme Court," by Thomas Goldstein, http://www.slate.com/id/2174854/pagenum/2/: "The defendant in this case is the only person in the country who is on death row for a noncapital crime." (The case in question is a child rape case, which is punishable by death in Louisiana.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Oct 2 02:25:59 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:25:59 -0400 Subject: Capital Crime In-Reply-To: <200710020022.l91KAOAL010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And, _Words and Phrases Judicially Defined_ (Vol 1, p 958) states: "A capital crime is one for which the punishment of death is inflicted. Walker v. State 13. S. W. 860 , 28 Tex. App 503" Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 2 10:51:38 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:51:38 -0400 Subject: the 1938 "Bob's yer uncle" story Message-ID: "Street Corner" by Tom Burns has, to my knowledge, the earliest reported quotation of "Bob's yer uncle" (Partridge listed "Bob's your uncle" in 1937, without providing a quotation). It is in New Writing, edited by John Lehmann with the assistance of Christopher Isherwood and Stephen Spender [the latter the source of the OED 1946 quotation] (New York: Alfred A. Knopf [and London: Hogarth Press] Fall 1938 {=new series 1]). According to "About the Contributors" p. xi "Tom Burns is the author of two stories in [old series] No. 4 A Bit of Fun and Back Rent. he was born in Bethnal Green in 1913, and has worked in London shops, in the Post Office, and as a private school teacher. from pages 72-73: ....'There's that crowd of tarts. Let's get past 'em.' ....A tall girl in the middle turned her head as they came near. "H'm, look out, girls," she said. 'The army's 'ere.' The others turned and giggled shrilly as the youths marched past. 'Bob's yer uncle,' shouted another girl, very suddenly. They all shrieked loud with laughter. [p. 73] ''Ow's yer Aunt Fanny?' called back Frankie, and the shrieks came loud again. "Woo-oo, woo-oo'--Doobsy led a mock chorus.... "Saucy effs,' said the tall girl.... 'Oo, yer bitch,' shouted Frankie.... 'Buch o' toerags,' said the tall girl.... "Ah, eff 'em,' said Walter. 'Stuck-up cows. Think they're all Joan Crawford when they get uhside the factory.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Tue Oct 2 13:28:45 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:28:45 -0700 Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award In-Reply-To: <200710011215.l91AkicZ010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Terry Pratt Thanks for posting the notice about the Award. At the end of the first block of text, your address is partly blocked by some overprinting, which makes the former illegible. L. Urdang Terry Pratt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Terry Pratt Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award for the support of lexicographical study and research is again being offered by the Dictionary Society of North America for 2008. Funded by DSNA member and fellow Laurence Urdang, the Award will support one or more lexicographical projects during the year 2008 with awards ranging from $500 to $2500. Applicants must be current members of the Dictionary Society of North America. The budget may include costs of travel, tuition, materials, subsistence, and related expenses. The proposal should include the following parts: Project name. Applicant's name and address. A statement of the project's immediate goals and expected long- range results. A description of the methodology or procedures to be used. A summary budget of total expenses for the project. An identification of other sources of support available for the project. A one-page biographical resume for the applicant. The proposal should total no more than three pages, single-spaced, including the one-page resume. The proposal should be sent (with a self-addressed, stamped postcard for acknowledgment) to current DSNA President PROF. TERRY PRATT, 932 PETERS ROAD, RR#3, BONSHAW, P.E.I. C0A 1C0, CANADA (address must be all in caps) or e-mailed to tpratt at upei.ca. It must be received by December 1, 2007. Awards will be bestowed and full payments sent early in 2008. The Society requests that it be sent copies of any publications arising from the Award. 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award The two 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award winners are Dabney A. Bankert (Department of English, James Madison University) is a professor of Medieval English, and Stefan Dollinger (Department of English, University of British Columbia), editor for the revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles. Professor Bankert will use her award in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities to examine the correspondence between Bosworth and Dutch philologists and theologians concerning the making of his famous Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language during the period 1829-1840. Dr. Dollinger is undertaking a revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms. The award will facilitate examining entries in the letters “A” and “C” where errors had been discussed in correspondence between the publisher and editors in 1969. The Dictionary of Canadianisms is a major source of data about English in North America. Terry Pratt 932 Peters Road, Elmwood RR#3 Bonshaw, PEI C0A 1C0 Canada 902-675-3672 FAX 902-566-0363 tpratt at upei.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 2 15:17:51 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:17:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? Message-ID: What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? One book treats it as a real women's club ("Social New York Under the Georges", Esther Singleton (1902), pp. 383-4). Another treats it as a political men's club ("Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society (1876), pp. 30-31). Stevens notes "frequent mention" in the two NY newspapers of the period, which supported different political factions. But a newspaper article, included as humor by W. Howland Kenney (Laughter in the Wilderness: Early American Humor to 1783, pp. 185-6) -- which article made its way into the "Manual of the corporation of the city of new york"! -- certainly seems to have sexual connotations. Perhaps there was a real "hunc over de" club (of men), and the newspaper article is a scurrilous political satire on its purpose? I quote some portions of the 25 Feb. 1736 (NS) New York Weekly Journal article: [The male author writes that he found himself ,at the house of a female acquaintance, in the company of a large number of women between the ages of 15 and 50. He was asked to become their secretary, and took notes of their queries to the editor of the newspaper.] "Mrs. --- a Maiden Lady, of middle Age, says She hears there is a Meeting ... every Tuesday, at four certain Houses in this City, which is called the HUNC OVER DE Club, but having ever been cautious of her Character, and not knowing what is meant by the Game of HUNC OVER DE, for she understands it is a sport [asks for advice as to her conduct]. "Mrs. ---, a Widow of about Five and Thirty, says ... that, as it is described to her, there is no Difficultly in their Sport but what may be soon acquired, that she conceives she understands it well, and proposes another Society of Hunc over de's to be established by the Company present, with a competent Number of Males, but submits it to your Advice, and the Opinion of the younger Ladies, for the Elder she thinks are less interested in the Matter. "Mrs. ---, an English Lady of full Age, says she has been acquainted with many People ... and has played at most Games with them, that she never heard of any by the Name of Hunc Over De ... "Miss. ---, a young Lady of agreeable Person, who thinks by a ... piece of Caprice she has been excluded from being one of the Hunc over De's already established, desires to return Thanks for her lucky Escape, but she at the same Time declares she is ready in an Orthodox Manner to be as merry as any Body, and hopes you will advices the young Gentlemen of the Town, to think more of their Belles and less of their Bottles." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Oct 2 18:27:30 2007 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Se=E1n_Fitzpatrick?=) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:27:30 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: Re: spend a penny "Hit the bogs" was current in Brum (Birmingham, Eng.) circa 1969. Seán Fitzpatrick It’s a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 2 19:03:20 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:03:20 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla -----Original Message----- From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 2 19:23:08 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:23:08 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE5804C@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: At 10/2/2007 03:03 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: >Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my >campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a >fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded >like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can >tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." A funny story, particularly to me, who grew up in New York where "gods" do not hang around libraries, museums, etc. (except perhaps as unresponsive statues), and who has been wandering in the innards of Widener for several years past, looking not only for books but also for men's rooms. But--at least today--one will only find gods at the entrances; handier sources will be the librarians and assistants. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 2 20:22:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710021903.l92IjYU8032225@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have understood it as: "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to earth." He must have been totally discombobulated. There was a roughly similar case at the Widener Library circ desk, when I was running it. An English male student assistant was attempting to "chat up" - that's the way they say it over there, to paraphrase a local Boston woman who was mocking English as it's spoken in California - an American female student assistant. In the course of his conversating, he happened to speak the word, "button." She laughingly interrupted his rap, asking, "Buh-tun [b^t at n], Eddie? Buh-tun?" The English kid, totally missing the point, merely replied "Yes," and tried to continue. The girl, now laughing out loud, repeated her question, "Buh-tun, Eddie, buh-tun?" Now completely confused by her laughter and not understanding at all what was being questioned, he again replied merely, "Yes." At this point, I told her to stop that. The poor English kid, I'm afraid, never did understand that the American girl was mocking his - dare I say it? - "English" accent. Speakers of dialect A tend to forget that, to a speaker of dialect B, the oddities of dialect B don't exist. Rather, it's dialect A that has the oddities. When I was a kid, BE speakers in Marshall, Texas, were annoyed by my, to them, snooty "proper" manner of speaking. Back in Saint Louis, people laughed at my "country" accent. I quickly became bi-dialectal. It probably goes without saying that black Marshallites considered the speech of black farmers from surrounding Harrison county to be the "country" dialect and not their own speech. -Wilson -Wilson On 10/2/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." > > Gerald Cohen > University of Missouri-Rolla > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] > Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > > If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet > misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue > on Separated by a Common Language: > > > > Lynne > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 2 21:04:07 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:04:07 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: No, she didn't say what the local's response was. Her story about the incident ended with her reply about looking for someone closer to earth. IAC, it's possible that in her primary concern for finding the ladies room she didn't pay much attention to the fellow's reaction. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have understood it as: "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to earth." He must have been totally discombobulated. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 01:53:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:53:32 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: Clarence Thomas said in an interview that his grandfather used this phrase; perhaps it's in Thomas's book. ... Is it in the ProQuest Black Newspapers database? ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) African-American Proverbs in Context by Anand Prahlad - Literary Criticism - 1996 - 292 pages Page 239 Hard times will make a monkey eat cayenne pepper. ... Usage: "If a monkey had gone a long time without eating, he would eat whatever became available to ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) If He Hollers Let Him Go: A Novel - Google Books Resultby Chester B. Himes - 2002 - Fiction - 216 pages The white folks* pressure would make a monkey eat cayenne pepper—once. 1 tried to shake it from my mind, looked about me. I'd gone out past Washington. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) Hillsdale College - IssueMy grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. ... [June 1994 essay by Clarence Thomas. Full quote below. -- ed.] ... I know there are those who hear me with a smug arrogance that only untarnished youth or insulated cynicism can generate. But I am unimpressed with this uninformed and misguided arrogance; I have seen it and I have been there. My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. That is the one university we all get to attend—tuition free. And learning the lessons that we must learn cannot forever be avoided by sweeping our difficulties under the rug of societal blame. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 04:39:13 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:39:13 -0400 Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) Message-ID: HAMBURG SANDWICH ... I've just added an 1898 "Hamburg sandwich" cite from Bismarck, North Dakota. Both the New York Times and the Yale Daily News printed earlier this year that the "hamburger" was invented at Louis Lunch at New Haven, CT, in 1900. This is obviously not true, but neither publication printed my letters to the editor to correct a simple error of fact. Don't know why I bothered to write them. ... The "hamburger" was clearly (as Texas legislators have proved) invented and/or popularized by Fletcher Davis of Athens, Texas at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, but we now have these: ... 1883--Hamburgers (New York, NY) 1893--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Reno, NV) 1894--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Chicago, IL) 1894--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Los Angeles, CA) 1895--Sandwich...Hamburger steak (Honolulu, HI) 1898--Hamburg sandwich (Bismarck, ND) 1901--Hamburger sandwiches (Omaha, NE) 1902--Hamburger sandwich (Des Moines, IA) 1902--Hamburger sandwich (Davenport, IA) 1902--Hamburger sandwiches (Decatur, IL) 1903--Hamburger sandwich (Fort Worth, TX) ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/hamburger/ ... 16 December 1898, Bismarck (ND) Daily Tribune, pg. 3: Hamburg sandwich....15 Hamburg steak....35 Hamburg steak, with eggs....50 ... ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAXICAB ... Grant Barrett has informed me that the 1899 New York Times "taxicab" ProQuest database citation is in error, and I've removed it from my website. I hate it when he does that and I have to revise old work. ... I seem to have found a June 1906 NewspaperArchive "taxi cab" citation from Hammond, Indiana (see below) that looks like a small go-cart. Could that citation be legitimate or is that one bad as well? ... It's clear that the word "taxicab" was in common use in London in the spring of 1907 and was not "coined" by New Yorker Harry N. Allen in the fall of 1907. The Wikipedia entry needs to be changed, but I'm not allowed to cite any of my own work, so I don't feel like editing it for free (but someone else can). The New York Times also falsely said that Harry N. Allen coined the word "taxicab." ... ... ... http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/podcast-100-years-of-taxis/ September 7th, 2007 9:37 am Allen may have been credited with coining the word "taxicab," but he was probably credited inaccurately. The first appearance of the word so far found is in a British newspaper in March of that same year in a story about the start of taxicab service in London, according to the Oxford English Dictionary and my own digging in newspaper archives. The word "taxicab" quickly traveled to the US and appeared in the Chicago Tribune as early as March 31, 1907, in a story specifically about London taxicabs. An anecdote told in the Tribune story about taxicabs in Paris bears repeating. "The Parisian fiacres show a little ticket 'Libre' when disengaged. The Parisian joker in these circumstances approached and cried: "Cocher, êtes-vous libre?" Cocher would eagerly reply: "Oui, monsieur!" to which the joker would respond with: "Alors, vive la liberté!" — Posted by Grant Barrett ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/taxi_the_word_taxicab_and_the_yellow_color/ ... Entry from June 11, 2005 Taxi (the word "taxicab" and the "yellow" color) It has been said that Harry N. Allen coined the word "taxicab" in the fall of 1907, and that he also introduced the color "yellow" to his vehicles. I think that's wrong on both counts. Paris and then London both had "taxicabs" before they were introduced to New York in October 1907. The word "taxi" is short for "taximeter" and "cab" short for "cabriolet." Harry Allen's cabs were red. The W. C. P. Taxicab Company introduced the yellow cab in New York in the spring of 1909. Wikipedia: Taxicab Taxicab, short forms taxi or cab, is a type of public transport for a single passenger, or small group of passengers, typically for a non-shared ride. A taxicab is a vehicle for hire which conveys passengers between locations of their choice. (In most other modes of public transport, the pick-up and drop-off locations are determined by the service provider, not by the passenger.) Although types of vehicles and methods of regulation, hiring, dispatching, and negotiating payment differ significantly from country to country, many common characteristics exist. (...) History Horse-drawn for-hire hackney carriage services began operating in both Paris and London in the early 17th century. Royal proclamations in both cities regulated the number of carriages - the first example of taxicab regulation. In the 19th century, Hansom cabs largely replaced the older designs because of their improved speed and safety. Although battery-powered vehicles enjoyed a brief success in Paris,London, and New York in the 1890s, the 1891 invention by German Wilhelm Bruhn of the taximeter (the familiar mechanical and now often electronic device that calculates the fare in most taxicabs) ushered in the modern taxi. The first modern meter-equipped taxicab was the Daimler Victoria, built by Gottlieb Daimler in 1897; the first motorized taxi company began operating in Stuttgart the same year. Petrol powered taxicabs began operating in Paris in 1899, in London in1903, and in New York in 1907. The New York taxicabs were imported from France by businessperson Harry N. Allen. Allen was the first person to paint his taxicabs yellow, after learning that yellow is the colour most easily seen from a distance. Wikipedia: Yellow In some countries, taxicabs are commonly yellow. This practice apparently began in New York City, where taxi owner Harry N. Allen painted his taxis yellow after learning that yellow is the color most easily seen at a distance. See List of taxi cab colours. (Oxford English Dictionary) taxi, n. Colloquial abbreviation, orig. of TAXIMETER, and hence, more usu., of TAXI-CAB. 1907 Daily Chron. 26 Mar. 6/7 Every journalist..has his idea of what the vehicle should be called. It has been described as the (1) taxi, (2) motor-cab, (3) taxi-cab, (4) taximo,..(7) taximeter-cab. 1908 Ibid. 4 Feb. 4/7 Within the past few months the 'taxi' has been the name given to the motor-cab. Taxi-cab, taxicab A cab for public hire, fitted with a taximeter; esp. an automobile or motor-cab so furnished. 1907 Daily Chron. 28 Mar. 2/5 The 'taxicab', as the new taximeter motor-cab is called, is fast becoming a familiar feature in the streets of London. 1907 Ibid. 3 May 8/3 London has taken kindly to the Taxicab. 1908 Westm. Gaz. 7 May 4/2 How much the taxi-cab has done..to educate the non-motoring public to the utility of the motor-car. taximeter An automatic contrivance fitted on a cab or other vehicle to indicate to the passenger at any point the distance traversed and the fare due. Also ellipt. for taximeter cab (rare). The earliest forms of this indicator were simply distance-recorders, but it was soon made to comprise an automatic fare-reckoner and index. [1890 German Patent Spec. 56310 Taxameter-Fabrik Westendorp & Pieper in Hamburg.] 1894 Times 2 June 19/1, I have severally interviewed the proprietors of the 'taxameter', owners of cabs at Hamburg, and several of their employes. 1898 Daily Chron. 21 Mar., An illustration and description of the taxameter has been sent us. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 30 Apr. 7/3 Each vehicle will be provided with a taxameterthe little instrument for registering distance which has found such favour in Paris and Berlin. 27 June 1965, New York (NY) Herald Tribune, pg. 24, col. 2: Harry Allen, the Man Behind the Taxicab (...) He was the man who started the taxicab industry in New York City. He coined the name "taxicab" and copyrighted it. He operated the first fleet of what street-corner loafer jeeringly called "smoke-wagons" -- 65 of them to start, 700 within a year. (...)(Col. 3 -- ed.) He put together parts of the words "motorcab" and "taximetres" from a French company making meters for horse cabs, and came up with "taxicab." He went to Washington to copyright it, then went back to France and bought 65 shiny, red taxicabs, 16-horsepower, four-cylinder Darracq cars of the landaulet type. (...)(Col. 4 -- ed.) On Oct. 1, 1907, what the newspapers called "the new taximeter motor cabs" had their first public trial. 27 June 1965, New York (NY) Times, "Harry Allen Dies, Taxi Pioneer, 88, Introduced Vehicles Here in '07 -- Coined 'Taxicab,'" pg. 64: Harry N. Allen, who coined the word "taxicab," and introduced the first such vehicles here, died yesterday at his apartment in the Peter Cooper Hotel, 130 East 39th Street. He was 88 years old. The taxicab industry here began when Mr. Allen became angry one evening early in 1907, when the driver of a horse-drawn hansom cab charged him $5 for a trip from 44th Street to 58th Street. "I got to brooding over this nighthawk," Mr. Allen told an interviewer in 1947. "I made up my mind to start a service in New York and charge so much per mile." Mr. Allen solicited $3 million worth of underwriting for the New York Taxicab Company, from French, ENglish and New York businessmen. On Oct. 1, 1907, a fleet of 65 shiny red taxicabs appeared on the streets of New York. 20 August 1905, New York (NY) Sun, "What Happens in Paris When Your Cab Horse Runs Away," third section, pg. 8, col. 1: "I'd been browsing around one morning and it got to be noon without my knowing it. I'd promised my wife to be back to the hotel for lunch, so I hailed a taximeter cab -- that's a kind of vehicle, you know, that's self-registering. There's a minimum charge, and then you can sit and watch your bill go up as the wheels go around." 15 April 1906, San Francisco (CA) Call, pg. 5, cols. 2-3: Keeping Tab on the Cab. -- The taximeter cab is a great institution -- small clockwork arrangement alongside of seat, so that passenger may sit and watch the indicator and know how his bill is running up. The indicator is set an seventy-five centimes at the start. In other words, you owe 15 cents before you get away. Then it clicks up 10 centimes at a time, and when you reach your destination there is no chance for an argument regarding the total. What they need now in Paris is a mechanism to prevent the driver from taking you by the roundabout way. 18 June 1906, Hammond (IN) Times, pg. 16 ad: This Nifty Taxi Cab. One of the newest of the Go-Cart creation this season is the "Taxi Cab." They are simply immense. Come in and let us show them to you, the price ranges up from ... 14.75 [This looks to be a baby carriage -- ed.] 24 March 1907, Salt Lake Herald (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 8, col. 4: The company which has been formed to operate taximeter cabs in New York will, as soon as possible, open stations at Philadelphia, Boston and other principal cities. 31 March 1907, Salt Lake Herald (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 9, col. 5: Drivers of the taximeter cabs to be operated in New York and several other eastern cities will be termed "motormen," not "chauffeurs," and will be forbidden to receive tips. 31 March 1907, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. B3: LONDON LIKES ITS "TAXICAB"; 63 KEPT BUSY ALL THE TIME. New Sixteen Cents a Mile Motor Cars Strike Popular Fancy in British Metropolis, as in Paris. LONDON, March 30. - After a week's trial the new taximeter motor cab or "taxicab," as it already has been christened, has been pronounced an all sides as an unqualified success, though the drivers will have hard work living down the contempt of the London cabby, who is unable to compete with his smartly uniformed rival and his swift car, and vents his humor in choicest billingsgate whenever the other is in earshot. 28 April 1907, Sunday World-Herald (Omaha, NE), pg. 11: How picturesque the details of that day sound, as Lord Gwydyr tells about them to us who belong to this quicker age of motor buses, taxi cabs and telephones. He started from Gwydyr house in Whitehall, not as he might now, by motor or taxi cab, but in a barge, if you please -- his grandfather's barge, manned by liveried boatmen, of positively Elizabethan aspect. 19 May 1907, New York (NY) Sun, "London Nicknames," second section, pg. 2, col. 7: The streets of London have been dotted lately with handsome new, red painted motor cabs, which ply for hire at the reduced rate of eightpence a mile. They are fitted with taximeters and have promptly been called "taxicabs." (...) The new motor cabs have, as aforesaid, been christened the "taxicabs," and the horse drivers are wild with rage at their success. They have sounded the death knell of the old time crawlers, which, aside from being slow and not altogether safe, have not been too cheap; though I do not suppose Americans who use them here on their summer holidays will agree with me on that point. The one thing that visitors from your side delight in is to sit in a hansom cab by the hour and drive aimlessly about, because "it is so cheap." 26 May 1907, New York (NY) Times, pg. SM6: Is the Day of Cheap and Honest Cab Service at Hand? (...) In London, where they have been in operation for some time, they are now known as "taxicabs." 21 July 1907, New York (NY) Sun, second section, pg. 11, col. 2: Henry D. Winans & May have leased the plot of nine lots on the south side of Fifty-seventh street, 275 feet west of Eleventh avenue, for Charles E. Appleby to the New York Taxi-Cab Company. 25 August 1907, Washington (DC) Herald, "Some Nicknames in London," third part, pg. 2, col. 5: It was only a very few weeks ago that cabs fitted with taximeters in the manner so popular in Paris were put on the London streets, says Tit-Bits. At first everybody called them "taximeter cabs," to distinguish them from ordinary cabs, but the name has by universal consent been shortened to "taxicabs," in just the same was as the omnibus -- which was introduced from Paris by a man named Shillibeer, the first traveling from Paddington to the Bank of England in 1829 -- got changed to "bus," and "cab" took the place of cabriolet, as the one-horse vehicles used to be called when twelve of them first piled in London in 1823. 29 May 1909, New York (NY) Times, pg. 3: Telephone 5400 Columbus For a Yellow Taxicab On June First we begin the operation of a new Taxicab service in this city. Quality is the keynote throughout. Our taximeters are guaranteed to be accurate. The Yellow cabs will be kept constantly in as first class condition as any private turnout. See our page advertisement on back of new Telephone Directory. Our drivers are courteous, capable, and specially selected men. W. C. P. TAXICAB CO., 232 W. 56th Street at Broadway. 20 June 1909, New York Times, pg. S4: President C. F. Wyckoff of the W. C. P. Taxicab Company, made a wager a few days ago that the meters on the yellow cabs his company is operating were perfectly accurate. 18 July 1909, New York (NY) Times, pg. 1: The New York Taxicab Company will announce to-morrow a reduction in the mileage rate of its red taxicabs for the first half mile to 30 cents, and 10 cents for each extra half mile - the same fee, one to four persons, day or night, and no sending charge. This means that the company is going below even the original rate that was charged when the red taxicabs were first put on the streets. (...) At the offices of the New York Transportation Company, Forty-ninth Street and Eighth Avenue, no news of the cut in rates contemplated by their competitor had been received, and the same was true of the W. C. P. Taxicab Company, at Fifty-sixth Street and Broadway, which operates the new yellow taxicabs. 1 September 1933, New York (NY) Times, pg. 17: C. F. WYCKOFF DIES; WENT TO AID PEARY Ithaca Manufacturer Was a Member of Arctic Relief Expedition in 1901. A PIONEER IN TAXIS HERE In 1894 He Joined Firm That Operated First Fleet of Auto- mobile Cabs in New York City. ITHACA, N. Y., Aug. 31. - Clarence F. Wyckoff, a member of the expedition which went to the relief of Admiral Peary in the Arctic in 1901, died of a heart attack in his home here last night at the age of 57. He was found by members of his family this morning. He was a manufacturer of Ithaca, an insurance broker and a pioneer in the automobile and taxi business in New York City. Graduating from Cornall University in 1894, he went to New York, where he joined the firm of Wyckoff, Church & Partridge in the automobile business. The firm built one of the first showrooms for cars and operated the first fleet of taxicabs. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 3 04:40:14 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:40:14 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710021518.l92FImi3002463@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of >New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? I don't know nothing about the club, but I can make a guess about the name. "Hunc Over De" = Spanish "junco verde" (= "green reed/rush"), rewritten as bogus [I think] Latin, with "j" replaced by "h" which expresses the Spanish pronunciation ("j" = /h/ or close enough). "Junco verde" is apparently from Columbus's log: the green rush/reed was apparently one of the first things observed to indicate that the expedition was nearing the land of the New World. From a Web site ... http://www.mgar.net/docs/colon2.htm ... <> There are on-line English versions, I think. The "junco verde"/"green rush"/"green reed" is mentioned in histories and even poems. E.g.: from Google Books: Juan Bautista Muñoz, _Historia del nuevo-mundo_ (1793), p. 80: <> Alfred Coester, _The Literary History of Spanish America_ (1916), p. 435: <<_El Junco verde_ [poem by J. J. Pérez (1845-1900)] relates the impression which was produced on Columbus and his crew by the sight of a green reed, the first sign of land.>> I suppose the meaning of the club name might have been "Attainment of the New World" or something like that. Alternatively perhaps there was a game named after Columbus's reed, with the club named after the game. I don't know whether there is some other meaning (a double-entendre) in the club name. Pretty obscure: I suppose it was meant to be so. Or am I out in left field again? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 05:55:09 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:55:09 -0400 Subject: bobbery 1784 antedates OED2 1816- Message-ID: By a wag correspondent from Spanish town [Jamaica], we are informed, that a military buck having publicly declared that he would make an attack behind the scenes of the theatre, and there kick up, what he polite[l]y called a bobbery, (some new military term for a riot), on Friday evening last, forced the out posts of the stage door, and in [the] tactical phrase, made a lodgement [etc.]. Pennsylvania Packet, 6 March 1784, page 2, col. 3. [Early American Newspapers] bobbery (n) antedates OED2 1816- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 06:29:12 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 02:29:12 -0400 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) Message-ID: Over three years ago, Michael Quinion made an ADS-L post, tracking "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. ... I just noticed that the "First Mention" website tracks "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. ... However, there was a widely circulated AP story on "Kilroy" on 14 November 1945. Fred Shapiro's excellent YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (pg. 669) gives citations of 26 June 1945 and 20 October 1945. ... "First Mention" states that Kilroy doesn't appear in STARS AND STRIPES until 7 January 1946, but Fred Shapiro cites it from STARS AND STRIPES on 19 August 1945. That date actually should be 18 August 1945. There are very many cites in STARS AND STRIPES, actually. ... ... ... (FIRST MENTION) http://firstmention.com/kilroywashere.aspx Undoubtedly the most famous piece of graffiti in history, Kilroy Was Here is almost synonymous with American GI's in World War II. So much so, it's even engraved in the World War II Memorial in Washington DC. But tracking down the origins of this ubiquitous phrase is maddening. There do not seem to be any WWII-era photos of the Kilroy Was Here scribble, despite numerous pleas in military forums asking for such photos. Nor does the phrase show up in actual WWII newspapers or other publications during the war. Not even the venerable Stars and Stripes mentioned Kilroy until well after the War was over, in their January 7, 1946 issue. The actual First Mention of Kilroy Was Here isn't until December 2, 1945 in an article from the Nevada State Journal, which attributes the origin of the phrase to Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 14 November 1945, Lowell (MA) Sun, "How Kilroy Got There," pg. 4, col. 6: 20 November 1945, Portsmouth (NH) Herald, pg. 4, col. 3: Boston (AP) -- To those men of the army air force who wondered how "Kilroy" happened to be just ahead of them at air bases all over the world, here's the answer! ... The army public relations office said that a friend of Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, Jr. of Everest, early in the war wrote on a barracks bulletin board at Boca Raton army air field in Florida: "Kilroy will be here next week." ... Kilroy was ill with the flu at the time. ... Later the catchy phrase was picked up by other airmen who changed it to: "Kilroy was here," and scribbled it on air force station walls. ... Kilroy, himself, only wrote it a couple of times. ... By the time Kilroy got overseas, the public relations office said, the thing had gotten out of hand and Kilroy even acquired a cousin. ... One sign at an Italian base said: ... "Kilroy's cousin, corduroy, was here." ... ... ... (ADS-L, 22 January 2004) Anyone collecting folk etymologies may like to add this one, which I found in the Nevada State Journal for 2 December 1945: Kilroy Was Here; Mystery Message Traced to Source EVERETT, Mass., Dec. 1. (U.P.) The mystery of world war II's most frequently chalked inscription - "Kilroy was here" - apparently has been solved. Veterans, who have seen that curious phrase on buildings, aircraft fuselages and piers wherever Americans have fought, will be happy to know that Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, jr. 21- year-old Everett soldier, was responsible. Now awaiting a discharge at Davis-Monthan field, Tucson, Ariz., Kilroy informed his parents here that while he was hospitalized earlier in the war a friend scrawled on a bulletin board at a Florida airbase: "Kilroy will be here next week." Airmen carried it overseas and left millions of veterans guessing until now. So now we know ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: <[log in to unmask]> Web: ... ,.. ... (STARS AND STRIPES) 18 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 1, col. 1: Kilroy's Fame Is Earned By Going To Pot ... 25 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific) ,pg. 2, col. 3. "Kilroy" letter. ... 30 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy Again!", pg. 2, col. 1. ... 4 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy Again?", pg. 2, col. 1: Your story of Aug. 18 seems a bit on the inquiring side as to "Who's Kilroy?" Well, I know Kilroy well. I assure you he's a well-bred Texas gentleman now seeing the world at Uncle Sam's expense. ... 6 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 3: "Kilroy ate here -- and died." ... 10 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy's Buddy," pg. 2, col. 1. ... 14 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy in Verse," pg. 2, col. 3. ... 18 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 5. (letter about "Kilroy Puzzle") ... 28 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 4: The Kilroy legend was started at Sheppard Field, Tex., by Staff Sergeant Bennet. He started to write "Kilroy Was Here," "Kilroy Slept Here," etc. Later, when we were at Kearns, Utah, a first sergeant wanted to know who was missing from formation. Everyone yelled "Kilroy!" The same thing happened at Ft. Lawton, out POE. We even wrote "Kilroy" on the ship's head on our (Col. 5) way overseas. I believe Staff Sergeant Bennet is on Saipan now, while I'm in Okinawa. --Pfc. R. M. Belanger, APO 337 ... 12 November 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy's Brother," pg. 2, col. 3. ... 16 November 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 3, col. 4: Kilroy Found -- Secret Ends Everett, Mass. (AP)... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Oct 3 08:29:28 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:29:28 +0100 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote ... > Over three years ago, Michael Quinion made an ADS-L post, tracking > "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. Barry, and perhaps others, has been led astray by my odd British sense of humour. When I quoted the item about Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, Jr, and added the comment "So now we know ...", it was to illustrate that even by that date, competing claims to be the originator of the expression had begun to circulate and be believed by the press. I was aware that earlier examples of it had been recorded. Think of the terminating three dots in my comment as my personal representation of the quizzically raised eyebrow ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 11:32:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:32:44 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "dressed to the nines" (1837) In-Reply-To: <492564.3397.qm@web53906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: what has Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect searches.] The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] [It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that "Some unaccustomed spirit Lifts him above the ground".... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 3 11:44:33 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:44:33 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: Whiting's _Modern Proverbs_ (1989; T156), gives "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers" (from _Time_ magazine, 1958: "an axiom learned during his East Harlem youth"). Prahlad (p. 239) cites Elsie C. Parsons, _Folk-Lore of the Antilles_ (1943): "Hunger make monkey blow fire" (from Grenada). Whiting cites as an analog the much older "Dainty dogs eat dirty puddings." --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:53:32 -0400 >From: Barry Popik > >Clarence Thomas said in an interview that his grandfather used this phrase; perhaps it's in Thomas's book. >... >Is it in the ProQuest Black Newspapers database? >... >... >... >(GOOGLE BOOKS) >African-American Proverbs in Context >by Anand Prahlad - Literary Criticism - 1996 - 292 pages > >Page 239 >Hard times will make a monkey eat cayenne pepper. ... Usage: "If a monkey had gone a long time without eating, he would eat whatever became available to ... >... >... >(GOOGLE BOOKS) >If He Hollers Let Him Go: A Novel - Google Books Resultby Chester B. Himes - 2002 - Fiction - 216 pages >The white folks* pressure would make a monkey eat cayenne pepper—once. 1 tried to shake it from my mind, looked about me. I'd gone out past Washington. ... >... >... >(GOOGLE) >Hillsdale College - Issue My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. ... > >[June 1994 essay by Clarence Thomas. Full quote below. -- ed.] >... >I know there are those who hear me with a smug arrogance that only >untarnished youth or insulated cynicism can generate. But I am >unimpressed with this uninformed and misguided arrogance; I have seen >it and I have been there. My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make >monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us >lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. That is the one >university we all get to attend—tuition free. And learning the lessons >that we must learn cannot forever be avoided by sweeping our >difficulties under the rug of societal blame. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:15:30 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:15:30 -0400 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) In-Reply-To: <200710030629.l92IjYQY032225@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Barry Popik wrote: > > 14 November 1945, Lowell (MA) Sun, "How Kilroy Got There," pg. 4, col. 6: > 20 November 1945, Portsmouth (NH) Herald, pg. 4, col. 3: > Boston (AP) -- To those men of the army air force who wondered how > "Kilroy" happened to be just ahead of them at air bases all over the > world, here's the answer! > ... > The army public relations office said that a friend of Sgt. Francis J. > Kilroy, Jr. of Everest, early in the war wrote on a barracks bulletin > board at Boca Raton army air field in Florida: "Kilroy will be here > next week." > ... > Kilroy was ill with the flu at the time. > ... > Later the catchy phrase was picked up by other airmen who changed it > to: "Kilroy was here," and scribbled it on air force station walls. The Boca Raton origin was given a few months earlier in this Chicago Tribune article: ----- "Meet Kilroy; He's GI Rival of Legion's Elmer," Joseph Hearst Chicago Tribune, Aug 20, 1945, p. 9 Kilroy got his legendary start at Boca Raton, Fla. air base. One version is that a fellow named Kilroy attended, after a fashion, radar classes there. When he attended he went to sleep. Frequently he didn't attend at all. His companions noticing his eccentric habits began scribbling notes and leaving them in the classroom. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:34:10 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:34:10 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "chew scenery" (1891) In-Reply-To: <492564.3397.qm@web53906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HDAS and ads-l archive have 1895 "chewin' the scenery" 1891 Rocky Mountain News, (Denver, CO) Sunday, March 01, 1891; pg. 19; col E Sarah?s Cleopatra Bernhardt Scored a Decided Failure on the Opening Night of the Play Agreeable Rattle. Category: News [19th C US N] The Antony...was devoid of dignity and real force. He was inclined to "chew scenery." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:01:54 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:01:54 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Johnny-on-the-spot" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003083410.kkybnh6v400k808g@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED has 1896 1894 The Penny Press, (Minneapolis, MN) Friday, December 21, 1894; Issue 57; Page 1, col C Pay up or Quit Firemen Who Are Not Johnny on the Spot Must Go. Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:51:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:51:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "chew scenery" (1891) In-Reply-To: <200710031234.l93AkoMW018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > HDAS and ads-l archive have 1895 "chewin' the scenery" > > 1891 Rocky Mountain News, (Denver, CO) Sunday, March 01, 1891; pg. 19; col E > Sarah?s Cleopatra Bernhardt Scored a Decided Failure on the Opening Night > of the Play Agreeable Rattle. Category: News [19th C US N] > The Antony...was devoid of dignity and real force. He was inclined to "chew > scenery." Chicago Tribune, Feb. 27, 1883, p. 6, col. 4 Wanted -- to hire -- 50 goats at Haverly's Theatre. Bring them to stage door Monday morning. The above curious "ad" appeared in Sunday's Tribune, and to those who saw it and were not on the inside it was a mystery. Some thought that the irrepressible Haverly had a new scheme and intended to put on the road a company of goats -- "fifty, count 'em, fifty" -- as tragedians, the aforesaid animals understanding perfectly the art of chewing scenery. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:12:30 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:12:30 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 Message-ID: Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page 1,col D Multiple News Items Category: News [col E top] ....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked him off to prison for bigamy. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:24:51 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:24:51 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "more ways nor one to skin a cat" (1830) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: 1830 Daily National Journal, (Washington, DC) Thursday, November 04, 1830; Issue 3057; Page 2, col D. A Rencounter. Category: Editorial [19th C US N] [in col. e] ....Harry is just as sure as that there rifle what never misses; but ye know there is more ways nor one to skin a cat--.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:57:28 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:57:28 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <20071003092451.xm7au0m1c8ggkgws@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Fashion Smiles Approval Without Reserve It Sets the Seal of Commendation upon the Komoi (Arts & Entertainment) The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, IL) Saturday, April 19, 1890; pg. 6; Issue 26; col A ....And when fashion and the Komoi join hands it is, as the mayor observed last night after deep thought, Katy bar the door. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 14:04:03 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:04:03 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031357.l93AlwD0028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > Fashion Smiles Approval Without Reserve It Sets the Seal of Commendation upon > the Komoi (Arts & Entertainment) > The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, IL) Saturday, April 19, 1890; pg. > 6; Issue > 26; col A > ....And when fashion and the Komoi join hands it is, as the mayor > observed last > night after deep thought, Katy bar the door. 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. [HNP Doc ID 229263831] --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 14:05:31 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:05:31 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 14:28:28 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:28:28 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 In-Reply-To: A<20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: When laymen talk about "the long arm of the law," they generally refer to the ability of law enforcement agencies to pursue crimes. But when lawyers talk about "long arm" jurisdiction, they mean the ability of a court to obtain personal jurisdiction over a particular party. I don't know if the two phrases have a common origin. Here's an example of the latter from 1828: "But in all these cases, the court will have to decide under all the circumstances, not only, that there has been a plain devastavit on the part of the executor, but that the debtor consented to, and was a party in contriving the devastavit; then indeed, a case of fraud is made out, which the long arm of the court will reach." Murray v. Blatchford, 1 Wend. 583 (N.Y. 1828). A "devastavit," which was a new term to me, is from Latin "he has wasted" and means an executor's failure to administer a decedent's estate promptly and properly, especially by spending extravagantly or misapplying assets. In the cases in question, the devastavits consisted of executors' sales of estate properties for amounts substantially less than their values. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:13 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page 1,col D Multiple News Items Category: News [col E top] ....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked him off to prison for bigamy. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 14:32:11 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:32:11 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <20071003073244.85sk5u3ntwws844s@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Last Saturday, one of those notorious villains, (distinguished by the appellation of sharper) dressed in his laced cloaths, and powdered off to the nines, went on board of a brig, bound for Calais. Independent Gazetteer [Philadelphia], 24 March 1787, page 2, col. 3 [letter addressed "Mr. Oswald, signed "Lutius"]. [Early American Newspapers] Joel At 10/3/2007 07:32 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: >what has >Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect >searches.] > >The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D > The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] >[It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a >house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. >One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline >says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] >is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that >"Some unaccustomed spirit >Lifts him above the ground".... > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 14:57:47 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: The 1899 citation is still on the Times' website. The New York Times provides scans of the articles in question, but does not include a scan of the date, so users are dependent on the date provided by the Times. Just how unreliable are these? Are we talking Google Books levels of unreliability? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------- TAXICAB ... Grant Barrett has informed me that the 1899 New York Times "taxicab" ProQuest database citation is in error, and I've removed it from my website. I hate it when he does that and I have to revise old work. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 15:05:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:05:33 -0400 Subject: "the X arm of the law" (1792) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED2 does not have "arm of the law" as a phrase; the earliest quotation text containing it is 1871. [All from Early American Newspapers] "the X arm of the law" I did not find X = long; and the earliest "the arm of the law" is later than the first of my two citations below. X = cold, vindictive: An execution in a republic is like a human sacrifice in religion. it is an offering to monarchy, and to that malignant being, who has been stiled a murderer from the beginning, and who delights equally in murder, whether it be purpetrated by the cold, but vindictive arm of the law, or by the angry hand of private revenge. State Gazette of South-Carolina, 4 Oct. 1792, page 2, col. 3. X = strong: I trust we will shew that the strong arm of the law is able to crush any factions or designing set of people, whose wish is to overturn the constitution. Salem Gazette, 14 May 1793, page 2, col. 2 [Ïrish House of Lords. Friday, March 1.] Joel At 10/3/2007 09:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page >1,col D > Multiple News Items >Category: News >[col E top] >....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while >having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked >him off to prison for bigamy. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 15:22:44 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:22:44 -0400 Subject: "the X arm of the law" (1792) In-Reply-To: A<200710031505.l93F5c9d000370@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: The earliest "arm of the law" I see on Westlaw is this dramatically-worded example from 1802, referring to the court's power to find against parties who play a secret role in fraud: "But the arm of the law is not shortened, that it cannot save, and courts and jurors will with eagle eyes trace fraud through all its secret and crooked paths, and render both the agent who appears, and the prime mover who plots in darkness, amenable." Windover v. Robbins, 2 Tyl. 1 (Vt. 1802). "Arm of the law" citations are frequent, but "long arm of the law" does not even show up on Westlaw until 1937. This makes me think that "long arm of the law" may have originated as a blend of "(strong) arm of the law" and "long arm (of the court)." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:06 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "the X arm of the law" (1792) OED2 does not have "arm of the law" as a phrase; the earliest quotation text containing it is 1871. [All from Early American Newspapers] "the X arm of the law" I did not find X = long; and the earliest "the arm of the law" is later than the first of my two citations below. X = cold, vindictive: An execution in a republic is like a human sacrifice in religion. it is an offering to monarchy, and to that malignant being, who has been stiled a murderer from the beginning, and who delights equally in murder, whether it be purpetrated by the cold, but vindictive arm of the law, or by the angry hand of private revenge. State Gazette of South-Carolina, 4 Oct. 1792, page 2, col. 3. X = strong: I trust we will shew that the strong arm of the law is able to crush any factions or designing set of people, whose wish is to overturn the constitution. Salem Gazette, 14 May 1793, page 2, col. 2 [Ïrish House of Lords. Friday, March 1.] Joel At 10/3/2007 09:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; >Page 1,col D > Multiple News Items >Category: News >[col E top] >....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, >while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, >and walked him off to prison for bigamy. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 15:33:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:33:31 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031432.l93AlwHq028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where does "card shark fit in? -Wilson On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last Saturday, one of those notorious villains, (distinguished by the > appellation of sharper) dressed in his laced cloaths, and powdered > off to the nines, went on board of a brig, bound for Calais. > > Independent Gazetteer [Philadelphia], 24 March 1787, page 2, col. 3 > [letter addressed "Mr. Oswald, signed "Lutius"]. > [Early American Newspapers] > > Joel > > At 10/3/2007 07:32 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: > >what has > >Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect > >searches.] > > > >The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D > > The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] > >[It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a > >house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. > >One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline > >says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] > >is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that > >"Some unaccustomed spirit > >Lifts him above the ground".... > > > >Stephen Goranson > >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 16:00:48 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:00:48 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071003044012.JSSD21078.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: Doug, I don't think your guess is out in left field. It has plausibility to me -- but of course no proof (yet). If this learned list can't help further (George Thompson wrote me privately that he was going to look into it), I may try some 18th century historians. Intriguingly, the earliest article Early American Newspapers finds for "hunc over de" (as three separate words) is the possibly-satiric one I excerpted here. [A correction -- the date of publication is 1 March, not 25 February (1736 NS).] The only additional hit from EAN before 1748 is the Boston Evening-Post, 12 April 1736, which copied from the New-York Weekly Journal of 15 March (not found by EAN with my search). The writer of a letter signed Andrew Merril is serious about political party factionalism at social gatherings and clubs that disappoints him, a visitor from overseas. After describing his experiences at various men's and women's clubs, he writes: "I fell into Company one Day with the _Hunc over De_ Club, they were merry enough, but they had like to have demolished the Ladies Tea Table at whose House the Club was; they had not much Party till Supper cane, and then they were as warm as Scallopt Oysters." [Another mystifying reference! Is Merril reporting factually? Does "Scallopt Oysters" hint at something? (By the way, this antedates OED2!) Is "Party" a play on words? Etc.] I did not search further, as it appeared there would be a large number of false positives. If, as one modern author wrote, there are many references to the Hunc Over De club in the New York Papers circa 1736, EAN did not find them. Nor did it find any "junco verde". Joel At 10/3/2007 01:39 AM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of >>New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? > >I don't know nothing about the club, but I can make a guess about the name. > >"Hunc Over De" = Spanish "junco verde" (= "green >reed/rush"), rewritten as bogus [I think] Latin, >with "j" replaced by "h" which expresses the >Spanish pronunciation ("j" = /h/ or close enough). > >"Junco verde" is apparently from Columbus's log: >the green rush/reed was apparently one of the >first things observed to indicate that the >expedition was nearing the land of the New World. > > From a Web site ... http://www.mgar.net/docs/colon2.htm ... > ><Colón Jueves 11 de octubre de 1492: / Navegó al >Ouestesudeste. Tuvieron mucha mar, y más que en >todo el viaje habían tenido. Vieron pardelas y un >junco verde junto a la nao. Vieron los de la >carabela Pinta una caña y un palo y tomaron otro >palillo labrado, a lo que parecía, con hierro, y >un pedazo de caña y otra hierba que nace en >tierra, y una tablilla. Los de la carabela Niña >también vieron otras señales de tierra y un >palillo cargado de escaramojos. Con estas señales >respiraron y alegráronse todos. Anduvieron en >este día, hasta puesto el sol, veintisiete leguas.>> > >There are on-line English versions, I think. > >The "junco verde"/"green rush"/"green reed" is >mentioned in histories and even poems. E.g.: from Google Books: > >Juan Bautista Muñoz, _Historia del nuevo-mundo_ >(1793), p. 80: <alegraron todos al ver un junco verde, un pez de >los que se crian entre rocas, una tablilla , una >caña, un baston con ciertas labores prolijas, ....>> > >Alfred Coester, _The Literary History of Spanish >America_ (1916), p. 435: <<_El Junco verde_ >[poem by J. J. Pérez (1845-1900)] relates the >impression which was produced on Columbus and his >crew by the sight of a green reed, the first sign of land.>> > >I suppose the meaning of the club name might have >been "Attainment of the New World" or something like that. > >Alternatively perhaps there was a game named >after Columbus's reed, with the club named after the game. > >I don't know whether there is some other meaning >(a double-entendre) in the club name. > >Pretty obscure: I suppose it was meant to be so. > >Or am I out in left field again? > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: >269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:00:27 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:00:27 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031415.l93AlwFU028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's gwine _ter_ do it." I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" where the standard, at least, does use one.` -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > > Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 16:11:19 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:11:19 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710030833r25583a35r54b2c573270d64aa@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: From OED2: "sharper" (n 1) "A cheat, swindler, rogue; one who lives by his wits and by taking advantage of the simplicity of others; esp. a fraudulent gamester. Cf. shark n.2" goes back to 1681. Earlier is "shark (n 2) "A worthless and impecunious person who gains a precarious living by sponging on others, by executing disreputable commissions, cheating at play, and petty swindling; a parasite; a sharper. In later use influenced by shark n.1 2.", 1599 B. Jonson. The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. OED2 does not have "card shark"! Joel At 10/3/2007 11:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where >does "card shark fit in? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:13:17 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93Akoia018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or both). dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >gwine _ter_ do it." > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >-Wilson > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English 15C Morrill Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-353-4736 preston at msu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:14:11 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:14:11 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031533.l93Ako4q018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > does "card shark fit in? I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" from 1858: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I really was hearing both.") --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:15:55 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:15:55 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops, should have read the other thread first! On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > > does "card shark fit in? > > I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. > OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" > from 1858: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") > > "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of > the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was > hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I > really was hearing both.") > > > --Ben Zimmer > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:17:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:17:49 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <200710031611.l93AkojM018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. > > OED2 does not have "card shark"! As I just posted in the other thread, we now have "card sharp" from 1858 and "card shark" from 1884: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:29:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:29:30 -0400 Subject: Hi! II Message-ID: Hi, sugar! I've remembered what I was going to say. The baby's screen did its closing and crashing thing, but then, the screen opened up, again, a second later, and everything was okay. Love you, -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:31:16 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:31:16 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: More on the monkey eating red pepper (cayenne) proverb. Now, if only I could get the monkey to eat my wife's tuna casserole--only kidding. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) 'Gombo Zhèbes', little dictionary of Creole proverbs, selected from six ... - Page 25 by Gombo Zhèbes - 1885 Misery makes the monkey eat red pepper."— [Martinique.] 208. • " Mo bien comm mo yé," parole rare. ("Je me trouve bien comme Je suis"— ces sont des paroles ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Occidental Gleanings - Page 192 by Lafcadio Hearn - 1925 "Miser ca lair macaque manger piment"; or "Want makes the monkey eat red pepper," is a powerful illustration of the pressure exerted by necessity. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Road: A Romance of the Proletarian Revolution - Page 336 by George Spiro - 1933 - 623 pages Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper." Eugene asked his opinion whether this crisis would open the eyes of the workers. ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES/NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 12 May 1952, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 33, col. 3: "Hard times," Heloise said, "make the monkey eat red pepper." ("Pound Foolish" by Robert Molloy, copyright 1950 -- ed.) ... ... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,810583,00.html Monday, Nov. 03, 1958 Hoodlum Frank Costello came when he was called last week, began paying the four years and 1½ months he still owes on an income tax rap. Before catching his free bus to the federal penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pa., "The Prime Minister" told reporters he would be "put in solitary for 30 days, but I'm not really bitter." Rolling across the Jersey Meadows, he might well have recalled a favorite axiom learned during his East Harlem youth: "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers." ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) Book World Pay-Per-View - Washington Post - ProQuest Archiver - Dec 28, 1979 ... SC, and orphaned at birth, She was exemplified and frequently repeats something She was told as A child: "Hard times will make A monkey eat red pepper." ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Wisdom of Many: essays on the proverb - Page 144 by Wolfgang Mieder - Reference - 1981 - 326 pages Examples include "Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper" and "That which goes around the devil's back must buckle under his belly. ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) MINERS RESERVE JUDGMENT ON PACT $2.95 - Lexington Herald Leader - NewsBank - Sep 23, 1984 Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper," said Hibbs, a UMW member for 29 years. Akers and Hibbs will have the chance to inspect the proposal in detail ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) For Dinkins, Pomp, Ceremony, Triumph And a Dream Realized New York Times - Jan 1, 1990 ''You know, hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper.'' It is The City's ability to survive hard times that will dominate Mr. Dinkins's first days, ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) TRAINER ARCEL LIVING HISTORY Pay-Per-View - Sunday Oregonian - LexisNexis - Aug 25, 1991 Tough times, Ray ARCEL likes to say, make monkeys eat red peppers. ``It makes me sad,'' ARCEL said recently at Trump Plaza, in Atlantic City to be honored ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) It's the afterthought that doesn't count.(Nation)(Pruden On... Subscription - Washington Times - HighBeam Research - Feb 4, 1997 Hard Times, a famous American philosopher king was fond of reminding everyone, will make a monkey eat red pepper. Our pols are the proof of it, ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:37:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:37:31 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <200710031627.l93AlwdO028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks to both of you. When I was a kid and a big fan of the horse opera, to the extent that I could distinguish between "Lash" Larue and "Whip" Wilson, trying to decide whether I was hearing "card shark" or "card sharp" used to drive me nuts. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. > > > > OED2 does not have "card shark"! > > As I just posted in the other thread, we now have "card sharp" from > 1858 and "card shark" from 1884: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > --Ben Zimmer > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:20:51 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AkojS018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically used to represent [@:]). http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Wilson, > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > both). > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:39:48 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:39:48 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93Akoia018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. I didn't see anything in this story ("Chunk" by Lum Duke, from the Atlanta Constitution) explicitly mentioning the race of the protagonists, Tom Hubbard and his beloved Mary Elizabeth (aka Chunk). They're described as rural Georgia folk -- she had "always lived hid away in the pine mountains on the Chattahoochee River." When such 19th-century stories featured black characters, they tended to be more "marked" -- unless, of course, the eye-dialect itself was intended as evidence of racial markedness. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:42:16 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:42:16 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AlwbQ028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A similar thing happens in early New England literature, right? I recall being puzzled as a teenager by Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (close, I think, though I don't have the poem, or its title, handy). Fifty years and linguistic training on, I assume it was meant to indicate the low central vowel /a/, with of course no /r/ at all, but when I was young and naive, I pronounced it [hOrd hOrt]. Beverly At 12:13 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Wilson, > >It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >(bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >(usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >both). > >dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of English >15C Morrill Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-353-4736 >preston at msu.edu > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 17:15:15 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:15:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "ivory tower" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Of course the collocation exists before 1894. And in poetry meaning an architectural tower, rather than a neck (see Dough Wilson in the archives). In any case the following seems at least close to the OED's "A condition of seclusion or separation from the world; in general, protection or shelter from the harsh realities of life," for which, in English, they start with 1911. Fayetteville Observer, (Fayetteville, NC) Thursday, June 28, 1894; Issue 584; page 1, col E A Literary Philosopher Category: News [19th C US N] ....There is a vulgarity that hangs about the author who seeks the crowd. Let the crowd seek you; let them clamor at the posteru [?postern with last letter inverted?] of your ivory tower.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 17:57:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:57:44 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "ivory tower" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003131515.qc6h6y6ds8c000wk@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: The same speaker, Edmund Gosse, a year earlier [Google Books full view] Questions at Issue (London, 1883) p22): ... and when the battle is over, and the rest meet to carouse round a camp-fire, he [Mallarme] is always found stealing back to the ivory tower of contemplation. ... SG Quoting Stephen Goranson : > Of course the collocation exists before 1894. And in poetry meaning an > architectural tower, rather than a neck (see Doug Wilson in the archives). > In any case the following seems at least close to the OED's "A condition of > seclusion or separation from the world; in general, protection or > shelter from > the harsh realities of life," for which, in English, they start with 1911. > > Fayetteville Observer, (Fayetteville, NC) Thursday, June 28, 1894; Issue 584; > page 1, col E > A Literary Philosopher Category: News [19th C US N] > ....There is a vulgarity that hangs about the author who seeks the crowd. Let > the crowd seek you; let them clamor at the posteru [?postern with last letter > inverted?] of your ivory tower.... > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 19:20:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:20:53 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AkojS018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson, > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > both). > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 3 19:23:27 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:23:27 -0500 Subject: Spear phishing Message-ID: "Spear phishing" is a term that is new to me. From a message to all Northrop-Grumman employees: Northrop Grumman employees have received e-mails from spear phishers recently. Spear fishing is a highly targeted phishing attack. By sending e-mails that appear genuine to all the employees or members of a certain company, government agency, organization or group, spear phishers attempt to trick you into giving out sensitive information. Phishing scams play off the trust a user has with the institution they think they are interacting with, for example a bank or credit union. In addition, spear phishing e-mails may include malicious software that can capture keystrokes or personal files and send them to phishers without your knowledge. Hidden and unknown codes can capture passwords and log-in credentials and compromise sensitive unclassified information. If you don't know who is contacting you and why, then you are at risk of being phished and should not open the e-mail. Delete unwanted e-mails by holding down the Shift key while you delete them to ensure the e-mail is not stored in your deleted items folder . [this instruction is specific to MS Outlook] How to Avoid Getting Hooked by Phishing Scams * Don't reply to e-mail or pop-up messages asking for Northrop Grumman information * Don't click on links within those messages * Don't cut and paste a link from the message into your Web browser * Don't respond to e-mails asking you to call a phone number; phone phishing threats are also on the rise * Don't e-mail personal or financial information. Financial institutions do not request this information via e-mail * Be cautious when opening any attachment or downloading any files regardless of who sent them * Follow up by using methods other than e-mail regardless of whether or not the message is suspicious * Check credit card and bank statements for any unauthorized charges ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On a lighter note: To get a flight instructor rating from the FAA requires meeting requirements (a) through (k) of section 61.183 of the Federal Aviation Requirements. Section (e) however is waived if the applicant: 61.183 (e)(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university. So good news to all you academics out there. You are already 1/11 of the way to getting a flight instructor rating. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ AXWYI KUBNJ CKZRP CFMEW NLAZK YAFXT LQMDP JKJTT MKKLQ KBZLX JLZ ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 3 19:30:16 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:30:16 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031921.l93Aq9RD028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. > >That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > >-Wilson > >On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wilson, >> >> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> both). >> >> dInIs >> >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >----------------------- >> >Sender: American Dialect Society >> >Poster: Wilson Gray >> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> >gwine _ter_ do it." >> > >> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> > >> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> > >> >-Wilson >> > >> > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> >> >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of English >> 15C Morrill Hall >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824 >> 517-353-4736 >> preston at msu.edu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred North Whitehead Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA Office: (517) 353-4736 Fax: (517) 353-3755 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 20:03:38 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:03:38 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031654.l93AkomY018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Why would he represent a low-central vowel with +rr? It seems to me more like an arrhotic speaker trying to represent a rhotic pronunciation. I just tried to Google the phrase, but the only hit was your post of 2004-02-17 (archived at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402c&L=ads-l&P=5368 ). "harrd" has a lot of porn hits. "harrd" with "Whittier" had one from Google Books that looked promising, but it turns out to be an OCR error for "shared" ( http://books.google.com/books?id=R33LsbqlTd4C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=harrd+whittier&source=web&ots=cHqbzGy7MH&sig=nM1vJu2uq4IdHaPc24vGzyfvvhE ) Back to work now. m a m On 10/3/07, Beverly Flanigan < flanigan at ohio.edu> wrote: > > A similar thing happens in early New England literature, right? I recall > being puzzled as a teenager by Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (close, I think, > though I don't have the poem, or its title, handy). Fifty years and > linguistic training on, I assume it was meant to indicate the low central > vowel /a/, with of course no /r/ at all, but when I was young and naive, I > pronounced it [hOrd hOrt]. > > Beverly > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Oct 3 20:49:27 2007 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:49:27 -0500 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 3 20:56:23 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:56:23 EDT Subject: Newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: Never heard about that. ... I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it was there, but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. ... The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so I re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we already knew where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. ... Oh, I got stories. ... --Barry Popik ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 3 23:50:29 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93G0rLH031335@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". Not entirely transparent to me. The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of _maintain Truth_". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 00:02:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:02:49 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710032350.l93L2tWM018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly > Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". > > Not entirely transparent to me. > > The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of > _maintain Truth_". The plot thickens... ----- "Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. _Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 "I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, or hunk, to these Scotch children. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 4 00:32:51 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:32:51 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do not include the story I started from. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry A. Popik" Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Never heard about that. > ... > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > was there, > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > ... > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > I > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > already knew > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > ... > Oh, I got stories. > ... > --Barry Popik > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 02:23:56 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:23:56 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My infancy being over the horizon (and with no children or grandchildren), I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? How does "I spy" (of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? Does either article (Hoke's or Culin's) from the _Journal of American Folklore_ describe these two games? And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? Or relate "I spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's "Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? Joel At 10/3/2007 08:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > > There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly > > Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". > > > > Not entirely transparent to me. > > > > The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of > > _maintain Truth_". > >The plot thickens... > >----- >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, >or hunk, to these Scotch children. >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 4 03:09:44 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:09:44 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >----- >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, >or hunk, to these Scotch children. >----- There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It appears in DARE. So maybe the "Hunc over De" club name is basically Dutch (or Low German), and refers to games of hide-and-seek? Maybe some of the savants can easily identify the relevant Dutch expression, but I surely can't. I know "over" = "over", and maybe "de" = "die" = "that" .... Otherwise, one might post an inquiry on the Lowlands list. [Last time I did, though, I got only an incomprehensible reply in some Low German dialect from a joker.] -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 4 04:02:00 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:02:00 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040224.l942ONIL014668@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >... I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" >is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? Probably not. It was usually described as an outdoors hide-and-seek game. >How does "I spy" >(of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? Don't know. Don't know how hide-and-seek would oppose it either. >And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I >spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by >ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? There are boy-girl variants of hide-and-seek -- IIRC -- in which (e.g.) when the man finds the hiding woman (could be vice versa) he is supposed to hide with her: maybe no more salacious than ballroom dancing, but still it makes a sort of a couple, I guess. >Or relate "I >spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's >"Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, >and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? My casual impression is that the tea table demolition might refer simply to voracious eating, the warmth simply to heated political discussions ("party" = "partisanship" or so, I think). I have put a question on Dave Wilton's Wordorigins.org discussion board; some participants there have shown some familiarity with Dutch in the past. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 04:31:23 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:31:23 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". > > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > appears in DARE. Indeed. From Stewart Culin, "Street Games of Boys in Brooklyn, N. Y." _Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 4, No. 14 (Jul. 1891), p. 226: ----- I Spy, or Hide and Seek. A boundary of a block is agreed upon, within which the players may hide, and then they count out to determine who shall be "it" for the first game. A lamp-post or tree is taken as the "home" or "hunk;" the one who is "it" must stand there with his eyes closed, and count five hundred by fives, crying out each hundred in a loud voice, while the others go hide. [etc.] ----- I don't see anything in that Culin article suggesting a "Scotch" origin, as Hoke claims. Dutch does indeed seem far more likely. Here's the OED etymology for the relevant sense of "hunk": ----- [a. Du. _honk_ goal, home, in a game; of Frisian origin: cf. WFris. _honcke_, _honck_ 'house, place of refuge or safe abode' (Japix); EFris. _hunk_ 'corner, nook, retreat, home in a game' (Doornkaat-Koolman).] ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 07:39:40 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 03:39:40 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" invented and named (of course) in Clarinda, Iowa in 1901 or 1902 Message-ID: Linda Stradley has this Clarinda, Iowa "hamburger" story on her website (whatscookingamerica.net), from an undated article in the Omaha (NE) World-Herald. I found another article in the Lincoln (NE) Star through Google News Archive, care of NewspaperArchive. Oddly, I used the same keywords directly in NewspaperArchive, and the article didn't show up in the results! ... NewspaperArchive has been heavily digitizing Iowa newspapers, so it's odd that no state newspaper tells the story of how the hamburger was invented in 1901-1902 in Clarinda, Iowa. ... These stories are all so ridiculous. There's always someone who says, "What will we call the new sandwich?" Never mind that "Hamburg Steak" and "hamburger" were terms that already existed for many years. ... ... ... http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HamburgerHistory.htm Clarindan Is 'Dan' of Hamburgers, Omaha World-Herald, by Paige Carlin, date unknown. (From Bibliography--B.P.) ... 1901 or 1902 - Bert W. Gary of Clarinda, Iowa, in an article by Paige Carlin for the Omaha World Herald newspaper, takes no credit for having invented it, but he stakes uncompromising claim to being the "daddy" of the hamburger industry. He served his hamburger on a bun: The hamburger business all started about 1901 or 1902 (The Grays aren't sure which) when Mr. Gray operated a little cafe on the east side of Clarinda's Courthouse Square. Mr. Gray recalled: "There was an old German here named Ail Wall (or Wahl, maybe) and he ran a butcher shop. One day he was stuffing bologna with a little hand machine, and he said to me: 'Bert, why wouldn't ground meat make a good sandwich?'" "I said I'd try it, so I took this ground beef and mixed it with an egg batter and fried it. I couldn't bet anybody to eat it. I quit the egg batter and just took the meat with a little flour to hold it together. The new technique paid off." "He almost ran the other cafes out of the sandwich business," Mrs. Gray put in. "He could make hamburgers so nice and soft and juicy - better than I ever could," she added. "This old German, Wall, came over here from Hamburg, and that's what he said to call it," Mr. Gray explained. "I sold them for a nickel apiece in those days, That was when the meat was 10 or 12 cents a pound," he added. "I bought $5 or $6 worth of meat at a time and I got three or four dozen pans of buns from the bakery a day." One time the Grays heard a conflicting claim by a man (somewhere in the northern part of the state) that he was the hamburger's inventor. "I didn't pay any attention to him," Mr. Gray snorted. "I've got plenty of proof mine was the first," he said. ... ... ... 23 June 1977, Lincoln (NE) Star, "Bert's burgers were culinary legacy to U.S.", The Staffer by Deb Gray, pg. 10, cols. 1-5: My great-grandfather claimed that he started a revolution in American cuisine. he claimed he created the first hamburger. (...) My Aunt Lucille, who has always lived in Clarinda, Iowa, the town where I grew up, remembered his story. She told it to me. I also read his story in a World-Herald clipping and a Chamber of Commerce pamphlet. Around the turn of the century (as in all oral history, dates are muddied), Bert Gray had a restaurant on the north side of the town square in Clarinda, Iowa. One morning he walked a few doors down the block, as he did every morning, to buy meat for that day's cooking. The butcher shop was owned by a German, a man named Ohm (or Ahm, Aunt Lucille wasn't sure). He was grinding sausage. "Bert," he said, "don't you think ground-up beef would make a good sandwich?" "You grind some for me, and I'll try it," my grandfather said. When my grandfather returned to the restaurant, he first coated the ground beef with an egg and milk mixture. These were the pre-soybean filler days, you know, and the beef needed gloop to make it stay pattied. But the stuff didn't taste right. My grandfather tried again. This time, he coated the meat with flour, pattied it, then tried it. He put it between bread, tasted it and loved it. The hamburger was born. After he made the sandwich, he took one to the German butcher. "What should we call it?" my grandfather asked. The butcher thought a moment, the laughed. "Let's call it the hamburger," he said. "Why? There's no ham in it." As it turned out, the German butcher originally was from Hamburg, Germany. he named the sandwich after his hometown. The hamburger soon became the hottest-selling item on Bert Gray's menu. he bought ground beef at 12 cents a pound and sold each hamburger for 5 cents each. At that time, many traveling types stopped in Clarinda, sort of a midpoint between Omaha and Kansas City. My aunt said the hamburger's reputation must have spread that way. [Traveling types stopping in Clarinda, Iowa. Must have been -- ed.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 4 08:27:49 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:27:49 +0100 Subject: Spear phishing In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52C92BA5F@XMBIL101.northgrum.com> Message-ID: > "Spear phishing" is a term that is new to me. It has been around a while. I noted it in the newsletter in April 2006. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Thu Oct 4 10:27:47 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 06:27:47 -0400 Subject: Spear-phishing Message-ID: 'Spear-Phishing' is actually at least a couple of years old--I've heard it at least that long (with my other hat I develop computer security policies and training materials). It's mentioned in the wikipedia article on phishing, and Microsoft has a webpage on it, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing http://www.microsoft.com/protect/yourself/phishing/spear.mspx and here's an older NYT reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/business/yourmoney/04spear.html Google gives 143,000 hits. -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:00:34 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:00:34 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071004040158.DVNT6229.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 12:02 AM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>... I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" >>is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? > >Probably not. It was usually described as an outdoors hide-and-seek game. > >>How does "I spy" >>(of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? > >Don't know. Don't know how hide-and-seek would oppose it either. > >>And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I >>spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by >>ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? > >There are boy-girl variants of hide-and-seek -- IIRC -- in which >(e.g.) when the man finds the hiding woman (could be vice versa) he >is supposed to hide with her: maybe no more salacious than ballroom >dancing, but still it makes a sort of a couple, I guess. Yes, good suggestion. I too remember this from my dimming youth, and as including boy-girl "play" as well, or at least the aroma of it. Perhaps at the 1736 "Hunc over de" club meetings (or at least in the possibly-satiric article) when a man found a hiding woman he went off with her to a private room. That would fit the comment, and choice of words, of the young widow: "... as it is described to her, there is no Difficulty in their Sport but what may be soon acquired, that she conceives she understands it well, and proposes another Society of Hunc over de's to be established by the Company present, with a competent Number of Males, but submits it to your Advice, and the Opinion of the younger Ladies, for the Elder she thinks are less interested in the Matter." >>Or relate "I >>spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's >>"Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, >>and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? > >My casual impression is that the tea table demolition might refer >simply to voracious eating, the warmth simply to heated political >discussions ("party" = "partisanship" or so, I think). Yes, "party" seems definitely a play on partisan political factions; that sense was I think becoming common at that period, the age of Walpole. >I have put a question on Dave Wilton's Wordorigins.org discussion >board; some participants there have shown some familiarity with Dutch >in the past. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:03:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:03:35 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Ben [off-list]. I think we're homing in on it. Now if there only were some primary source information about the phrase and "club"! Joel At 10/4/2007 12:31 AM, you wrote: >On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > >----- > > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > > >----- > > > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". > > > > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > > appears in DARE. > >Indeed. From Stewart Culin, "Street Games of Boys in Brooklyn, N. Y." >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 4, No. 14 (Jul. 1891), p. 226: > >----- >I Spy, or Hide and Seek. >A boundary of a block is agreed upon, within which the players may >hide, and then they count out to determine who shall be "it" for the >first game. A lamp-post or tree is taken as the "home" or "hunk;" the >one who is "it" must stand there with his eyes closed, and count five >hundred by fives, crying out each hundred in a loud voice, while the >others go hide. [etc.] >----- > >I don't see anything in that Culin article suggesting a "Scotch" >origin, as Hoke claims. Dutch does indeed seem far more likely. Here's >the OED etymology for the relevant sense of "hunk": > >----- >[a. Du. _honk_ goal, home, in a game; of Frisian origin: cf. WFris. >_honcke_, _honck_ 'house, place of refuge or safe abode' (Japix); >EFris. _hunk_ 'corner, nook, retreat, home in a game' >(Doornkaat-Koolman).] >----- > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:14:24 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:14:24 -0400 Subject: "rough music"and the OED Message-ID: "Rough music" is defined in OED2 only in the literal sense of "noisy uproar", with its earliest cite 1708. But it also seems to have been used to describe extra-legal punishment. "'Rough music' is the generic English name for the ritual of punishment in which a person violating the community's norms of morality was paraded on a horse or donkey, a wooden horse, or a poll or staff" (Jacob & Jacob, ed., _The Origins of Anglo-American Radicalism (1991), page 189). Should this sense be added to the OED's definition? (I do not have any 18th c. quotations.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 14:55:03 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:55:03 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". FWIW, I've always known "I spy" and "hide and (go) seek" to be coevally the same game, but with different "calls": I spy / Hicker(?) more(?) rye(?) ..." (unfortunately, I no longer remember the rest of this call and I have no idea as to whether the call beyond "I spy" consisted of actual words that I was simply too young to understand in the context of the call or whether it was a mere wordless chant) v. "Last night / Night before ..." On the basis of everything that I've ever read that mentions these games, starting from the first grade, I have no reason to think that the equating of these two games is peculiarly a black thang, hough it could be (sigh!) an age thing. -Wilson > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > appears in DARE. > > So maybe the "Hunc over De" club name is basically Dutch (or Low > German), and refers to games of hide-and-seek? > > Maybe some of the savants can easily identify the relevant Dutch > expression, but I surely can't. I know "over" = "over", and maybe > "de" = "die" = "that" .... > > Otherwise, one might post an inquiry on the Lowlands list. [Last time > I did, though, I got only an incomprehensible reply in some Low > German dialect from a joker.] > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 15:20:55 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:20:55 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041403.l94E3arX015123@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Something that I overlooked earlier seems to be the clincher that the "hunc over de" article is satiric and sexual: It is signed Your Humble Servant, Trusty Roger We all remember William Byrd's 1711 "I rogered my wife", don't we? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:07:47 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:07:47 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710022104.l92KXEll005463@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, that's an exceedingly obvious possibility, now that it's been pointed out. It's amazing how quickly the opaque can become transparent, under the right circumstances. :-) If the truth be told, I myself have been faked out by the Bostonic pronunciation of "guard" as, to the inexperienced ear, "god." I once overheard a couple of local girls attempting to flirt with a security guard, who was brushing them off: "What's your name?" "You can call me 'God.'" -Wilson On 10/2/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [I]t's possible that in her primary concern for finding the ladies = > room she didn't pay much attention to the fellow's reaction.=20 > =20 > Gerald Cohen > > ________________________________ > > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray > Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > > > > Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have > understood it as: > > "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to = > earth." > > He must have been totally discombobulated. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:28:47 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:28:47 -0400 Subject: Heard on the Judges Message-ID: Twenty-ish, black-male speaker: "He started _talking head_, so we went outside to _sport things out_." "Talk head" for "talk shit" ("talk trash" is a euphemism in BE) not in Google or Urban Dictionary. Three Google hits in toto, all relevant, for "sport things out"; not in Urban Dictionary. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:34:27 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:34:27 -0400 Subject: Double Decker, Cannibal Sandwiches (1891); Roast Beef a la Astor House (1893); Bowery Lingo (1899) Message-ID: 27 April 1891, San Antonio (TX) Daily Light, pg. 11?, col. 1: SANDWICH-EATING DETROIT The Combination of Bread and Meat the Leading Delicacy. Detroit Free Press. "How many sandwiches are consumed un Detroit daily?" was asked of a dealer in the more or less toothsome articles yesterday. "You will not believe me," he answered, when I tell you that Detroiters eat daily 10,000 sandwiches, yet that is a low estimate." (...)(Col. 2) The sandwich man concluded his philosophic homily on life and eating with a seductive list of the various kinds of sandwiches that tickle the public palate. As he gave them they are as follows: Turkey, chicken, ham, oyster, sardine, salmon, ox tongue, roast beef, egg, orange marmalade, double deckers and cannibal -- The latter meaning a raw beef sandwich, being especially adapted to prize-fighters, and so forth. ... ... ... 15 November 1893, Salem (OH) Daily News, pg. 3, col. 4: A Luscious Sandwich. There is served at the house restaurant -- and for that matter at the senate restaurant -- a dish that is fit for the interior of any man, high or low, rich or poor, old or young, whom the Lord has ever suffered to live and sin. It is composed of a couple of slices of tender beef, divinely roasted, inclosed between slices of bread, divinely browned, and over all is poured a half pint of the golden juice of the meat, vulgarly known as gravy, but whose right name is "ambrosia." This dish in its entirety is down on the bills as "hot roast beef sandwich." It had its birth in the once famed Astor House and is the favorite brain child of a cook upon whom one day descended an inspiration. For a long time it was distinguished upon the capitol cartes as "a la Astor House." It has become so much a favorite with the feeders in the big building, however, that its New York patronymic has been dropped. -- Washington Post. ... ... ... 27 January 1899, Sandusky (OH) Star, pg. 1, col. 4: OUR NEW YORK LETTER Bowery Eating House Lingo -- Snowshoes in New York -- A Costly Strip of Land. [Special Correspondence.] Bowery English is a language of its own. It is distinctly foreign to the Anglo-Saxon commonly in vogue in the ordinary walks of life. It is used almost exclusively in the restaurants of the thoroughfare and is apt to startle strangers. For instance, a customer not accustomed to the life of the Bowery, who wandered into one of its restaurants by mistake, might call for ham and eggs, and the waiter would yell to the cook. "A slice for a gazabo wid a souvenir from de feather factory." Or perhaps the customer would desire two eggs fried plain. The waiter's order to the kitchen would be in the choicest Bowery dialect about as follows. "T'row on a pair of de white wings an have de sunny side up." A glass of milk would bring forth an order for cow juice "wid an overcoat." A steak, "number seven;" beef stew, "mixed Irish," pork and beans, "Boston labor and Chicago capital," corned beef sandwich, "stare the cow in the face;" mush and milk, "disturbed hen fruit;" Spanish omelet, "Santiago cake walk;" chocolate eclair, "French roll wid black dirt on it;" rice and cream, "Chinese white wedding," and so on until every article on the bill of fare has its own name. "Why do we talk dat way to de cooks?" asked one of the waiters in reply to a query. "Why, dem blokies wouldn't know what youse wuz talkin about if youse said it any udder way." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:36:27 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041521.l94AkLQd025173@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Roger" vb. is still fairly common in UK porn. So I've been given to understand. I wonder whether there's a connection between the "Roger" in "Trusty Roger" and that in "Jolly Roger." Both cases appear to have to do with someone getting fucked. -Wilson On 10/4/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Something that I overlooked earlier seems to be the clincher that the > "hunc over de" article is satiric and sexual: It is signed > > Your Humble Servant, > Trusty Roger > > We all remember William Byrd's 1711 "I rogered my wife", don't we? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 17:04:40 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:04:40 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. Here 'tis. The explanation of the metaphorical extension seems plausible to me, if not the allusion to the River Dee. (So now we have Dutch, Scottish, and Welsh provenances!) ----- http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March 1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or dodging. This shows the game has long been known in Pennsylvania or the vicinity, as that paper circulated in the neighbouring provinces as well as New York. I have been unable to find it in Strutt or in any book of sports and games, and have consulted many. The fact of its not being known in any other state at the present day except Western New Jersey and Delaware, where the early settlers, like those of Pennsylvania, were mostly English and Welsh Quakers from those counties in the neighbourhood of the river Dee, would seem to indicate its origin as having some connexion with that river, where it was probably played by the little Quaker children in their old homes on its banks nearly two centuries ago. Ormerod, however, does not speak of it. The persecution of the worthy disciples of George Fox: was so great in North Wales that most of their meetings were entirely broken up at an early date and the members emigrated in a body to Pennsylvania, where now exist many Welsh names as well as those of Cheshire, both local and family, also old English words peculiar to the latter place which have gone out of general use. WILLIAM JOHN POTTS. Camden, New Jersey, U.S.A. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 17:14:16 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:14:16 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/4/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a > _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 > "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in > Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I > spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' > Dee Brown," &c. [snip] The name of the game was also spelled "hunk-a-dee" in the Philadelphia area, as found in these two books: _History of Old Germantown_ (1907), Naaman H. Keyser, et al. http://books.google.com/books?id=8dgLAAAAYAAJ _Early Reminiscences._ (1927), Samuel L Parrish. http://books.google.com/books?id=s3BEAAAAMAAJ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 17:34:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:34:33 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" and the Oh-Ee-Dee? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Time to put it into the OED? Joel At 10/4/2007 01:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/4/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > ----- > > http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a > > _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 > > "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in > > Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I > > spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' > > Dee Brown," &c. >[snip] > >The name of the game was also spelled "hunk-a-dee" in the Philadelphia >area, as found in these two books: > >_History of Old Germantown_ (1907), Naaman H. Keyser, et al. >http://books.google.com/books?id=8dgLAAAAYAAJ > >_Early Reminiscences._ (1927), Samuel L Parrish. >http://books.google.com/books?id=s3BEAAAAMAAJ > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 18:26:28 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:28 -0400 Subject: Cannibal Sandwich (1889) ("hamburgers in the raw") Message-ID: OED has no entry for "cannibal sandwich," a somewhat popular item in the early 1900s. Of course, I re-checked NewspaperArchive for "Cannibal" + "Sandwiches" (I'd found the item searching for "Beef" + "Sandwiches"), and didn't find the 1891 article I'd just read in the other search results! ... ... ... 3 January 1889, Baltimore (MD) Sun, supplement, pg. 2: "The horrid thing," they both faintly gasped, and the German chorister took his departure and his friend along, shaking out the delightful aroma of cannibal sandwiches as he passed down the aisle. ... ... 20 November 1899, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. 8: The Saunterer felt ravenously hungry yesterday noon, and intimated as much to a friend who was with him. "Come lunch with me," promptly responded the latter. "I'll take you to a place you've never been in before, and give you a meal that you've never had before. And that meal will consist of one sandwich. COme along." And the Saunterer did. The other man led the way to a place in the heart of the city, the entrance to which was on a side street. The place looked eminently satisfying, and the Saunterer felt prepared for anything. "Bring us a couple of cannibal sandwiches," said the friend to the waiter. "And don't put any onions in." It sounded rather guessable and the Saunterer waited in apprehensive silence. Presently the waiter returned with the sandwich. It consisted of two slices of bread about nine inches long and five in width buttered a quarter of an inch thick. One of the slices was covered by a half-inch layer of red meat minced. Both started to eat, but after the Saunterer had gulped down four mouthfuls through a face that was painful in its efforts to smile he demanded emphatically to know what it was. "Cannibal sandwich," answered his friend. "I know that," was the answer. "Well, it's made of raw beef, chopped very fine, and it's very good for you. See, they're eating them all around us." and they were, so the Saunterer worked at his a little while longer. The sandwich fully lived up to its reputation. For the Saunterer hasn't really felt hungry since. ... ... (LIVE SEARCH BOOKS) Canning and Preserving of Food Products with Bacteriological Technique by Edward Wiley Duckwall · 1905 · 478 pages · 100% viewable Many people eat uncooked meat in the so-called "cannibal sandwiches," smoked sturgeon and halibut, and m the same meal eat canned goods. If poisoning results, too often the blame is fastened on them ... ... ... 24 February 1907, Fort Worth (TX) Telegram, pg. 9: Cannibal Sandwiches of Rye Bread. -- Put half a pound of raw beef thru a meat chopper; add a teaspoonful of salt, a dash of red pepper and a tablespoonful of onion juice. Spread this over buttered rye bread, cover with another piece of bread and trim away the crusts. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Up-to-date Sandwich Book: 400 Ways to Make a Sandwich - Page 66 by Eva Greene Fuller - 1909 - 180 pages CANNIBAL SANDWICH Chop raw beef and onions very fine, season with salt and pepper, and spread on lightly buttered brown bread. MEAT AND MUSHROOM SANDWICH ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Mental Adjustments - Page 79 by Frederic Lyman Wells - 1917 - 331 pages ... pair of white wings wid de sunny side up (poached eggs), cannibal sandwich (beefsteak tartare), three diamond studs (portion of Hamburger steak). ... ... ... (LIVE SEARCH BOOKS) Handbook of Medical Treatment by John Chalmers Da Costa · 1920 · 1024 pages · 100% viewable Some r the juice of the raw meat and the raw scraped beef, which may be given properly seasoned in the form of a cannibal sandwich, on thin stale or toasted bread. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Edgewater Sandwich Book: With Chapters on Supremes, Hors D'oeuvres ... by Arnold Shircliffe - 1930 - 260 pages Page 120 Raw Beef Sandwich—II Cannibal Sandwich Spread thin slices of bread with finely ground or chopped ... This is called tartar or cannibal sandwich at times. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Outdoor Cooking - Page 370 by Cora Lovisa Brackett Brown, Rose Johnston Brown - 1940 - 506 pages But lest we be led astray, it is well to remember that Cannibal Sandwiches are naught but hamburgers in the raw, and when the onion is mixed in and the meat ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 19:11:54 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:11:54 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 01:04 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a >_Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 >"HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in >Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I >spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' >Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I >find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March >1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game >of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as >playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or >dodging. 1876 is the same year as "Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society, which discusses "Hunc over de" clubs on pp. 30-31. Saying "entirely", the N&Q writer thus missed what I now with confidence will call "satire with sexual overtones" in the March 1 article. And there is not one writer, but two. March 1 is "Trusty Roger", April 19 is "Diana" [the huntress?], who writes (in full; I have regularized italics and full caps): --------- Mr. Zenger; If you have room in your Journal, I should be oblig'd; if you will give this small Billet a Place in it. It is only to desire you will inform me, whether an Act of the Legislature cannot be procured, to confine the prettie Game of Hunk over Dee, to the present Set of Company that play at it? My Reason for this is, because, I think all projectors, ought to be encouraged by the publick. Besides it is my Opinion, that our Posterity should know, who were the Hunk over Dees, and that their dependants might ever be distinguished, from those that play the silly Game of maintain Truth, your speedy Answer will be very Acceptable to your constant Reader. Diana. ---------------- This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know [although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier letter from "Trusty Roger" does. (EAN has certainly confused me about the dates. It calls the March 1 issue "Date: 03-01-1735", not identifying it as Old Style. The reason my EAN searches did not find it previously is that I was looking only in the year 1736!) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 19:26:39 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:26:39 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031649.l93Aq9CF028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two versions. FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > > > I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > I didn't see anything in this story ("Chunk" by Lum Duke, from the > Atlanta Constitution) explicitly mentioning the race of the > protagonists, Tom Hubbard and his beloved Mary Elizabeth (aka Chunk). > They're described as rural Georgia folk -- she had "always lived hid > away in the pine mountains on the Chattahoochee River." When such > 19th-century stories featured black characters, they tended to be more > "marked" -- unless, of course, the eye-dialect itself was intended as > evidence of racial markedness. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 20:47:32 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:47:32 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031638.l93G4KI4018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > used to represent [@:]). > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > > > > On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > Wilson, > > > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > > both). > > > > dInIs > > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >----------------------- > > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Wilson Gray > > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > > > >-Wilson > > > > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >>----------------------- > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > >> > > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > > >> > > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > > >> > > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > >> > > >> > > >> --Ben Zimmer > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >> > > > > > > > > >-- > > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > >----- > > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > University Distinguished Professor > > Department of English > > 15C Morrill Hall > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing, MI 48824 > > 517-353-4736 > > preston at msu.edu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 4 22:58:29 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:58:29 +0000 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041912.l94JBvlc027535@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Whatever, it is cool to find that folks were writing the much-maligned "the reason is. because" in 1876! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Joel S. Berson" Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:11:54 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? At 10/4/2007 01:04 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a >_Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 >"HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in >Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I >spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' >Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I >find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March >1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game >of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as >playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or >dodging. 1876 is the same year as "Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society, which discusses "Hunc over de" clubs on pp. 30-31. Saying "entirely", the N&Q writer thus missed what I now with confidence will call "satire with sexual overtones" in the March 1 article. And there is not one writer, but two. March 1 is "Trusty Roger", April 19 is "Diana" [the huntress?], who writes (in full; I have regularized italics and full caps): --------- Mr. Zenger; If you have room in your Journal, I should be oblig'd; if you will give this small Billet a Place in it. It is only to desire you will inform me, whether an Act of the Legislature cannot be procured, to confine the prettie Game of Hunk over Dee, to the present Set of Company that play at it? My Reason for this is, because, I think all projectors, ought to be encouraged by the publick. Besides it is my Opinion, that our Posterity should know, who were the Hunk over Dees, and that their dependants might ever be distinguished, from those that play the silly Game of maintain Truth, your speedy Answer will be very Acceptable to your constant Reader. Diana. ---------------- This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know [although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier letter from "Trusty Roger" does. (EAN has certainly confused me about the dates. It calls the March 1 issue "Date: 03-01-1735", not identifying it as Old Style. The reason my EAN searches did not find it previously is that I was looking only in the year 1736!) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 01:10:43 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:10:43 -0400 Subject: Grilled Cheese Sandwich (1929, 1930) and Toasted Cheese Sandwich Message-ID: The New York Times devoted a long article to LA's devotion to the "grilled cheese sandwich" last Wednesday (yesterday; see below, at the bottom). I decided to look at cites for "grilled cheese sandwich" and also "toasted cheese sandwich." ... We've discussed the sandwich here before, and other thoughts are appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/grilled_cheese_sandwich_toasted_cheese_sandwich/ ... Entry from October 04, 2007 Grilled Cheese Sandwich (Toasted Cheese Sandwich) Los Angeles hosts an annual "Grilled Cheese Invitational," but the origins of the grilled cheese sandwich are up for debate. The name "grilled cheese" sandwich is cited in a New York State newspaper in 1928 and in a Texas newspaper in 1930. Bread and cheese is a natural combination, and "ramekins" (a bread and cheese dish) is cited from 1700s. "Toasted cheese sandwiches" were on menus from the 1900s and were popularly cited in newspapers by 1910. The Wikipedia (below) claims that the sandwiches were served "open face" until the 1960s, but 1910s citations show some "closed" sandwiches. Cooks.com GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH The most important part of any meal is the time and effort you put in to it. To make a great Grilled Cheese Sandwich you need fresh cheese and fresh bread. Ingredients are bread, cheese, and butter. Take 2 pieces of bread, a slice of cheese and insert the cheese in between the bread, butter the outside of the bread on each side. Place in a pan on low heat and turn when needed, until both sides are golden brown. Serve with pickles and potato chips on the side. Cooks.com GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH 2 slices bread 2 slices American cheese Butter 1 napkin Toast bread in toaster. Spread butter on both sides of toast. Place cheese slices between toast. Place on napkin in microwave. Microwave 30 seconds on high. Wikipedia: Grilled cheese sandwich A grilled cheese sandwich, (also known as cheese toasty or toasted cheese sandwich) is a form of toasted sandwich that consists of two slices of bread and at least one slice of cheese melted in between. There are various methods of preparation which vary depending on taste and convention. In the United States it is most common for the assembled sandwich to be buttered on the outside and placed on a griddle, pan, cast iron skillet, or dedicated sandwich maker to be heated (technically, the word 'grilled' in the name of the meal is inaccurate). Once the bread on the bottom half of the sandwich has reached a toast-like texture, the sandwich is flipped, and continues cooking until the other side has toasted or the cheese has melted. Another method of cooking the grilled cheese is to butter one slice of bread on both sides, grill the bottom side until the butter melts, then flip. Wait for the inside to be grilled, flip and add the cheese. Then butter the other slice of bread and grill then place the slices of bread together. In the United Kingdom the sandwich would most commonly be grilled either (open face as cheese on toast) under a grill (broiler) or, more usually, in a toasted sandwich maker. In the UK the sandwich would not normally be cooked in the American fashion, using a frying pan. Cheddar is most commonly used whilst in the US, traditionally American cheese is used; however, other cheeses such as gouda, Velveeta cheese and Swiss can be used. It is often supplemented with additional ingredients, most notably bacon and/or tomato, but also avocado, tuna, meat, pickles, herbs, spices, and condiments such as mustard, tomato sauce, or Worcestershire sauce. It is traditionally accompanied by tomato soup. Some recipes call for grilled cheese sandwiches to be served with ketchup as the condiment of choice. The grilled cheese sandwich is a variation on the very old combination of bread and cheese. The modern grilled cheese sandwich (American cheese and sliced white bread) began in the 1920s as an open sandwich. The additional slice of bread became common in the 1960s. In the early 1970s, a Canadian restaurant owner by the name Dach Johnston was credit for the addition of bacon to the sandwich, however, evidence of this has not yet been proven. (Oxford English Dictionary) ramekin A small quantity of cheese, with bread-crumbs, eggs, etc., usually baked and served in a special mould. Chiefly pl. 1706 PHILLIPS, Ramequin (Fr. in Cookery), toasted Cheese and Bread, a Toast and Cheese. Ramequins are also small slices of Bread-crum cover'd with a Farce made of pounded Cheese, Eggs and other Ingredients bak'd in a Pie-pan. 1754 Connoisseur No. 19 Toasted cheese is already buried in rammelkins. Feeding America by Jane Cunningham Croly New York, NY: The American News Co. 1870 Pg. 108: TOASTED CHEESE.—1. Grate three ounces of fat cheese, mix it with the yolk of one egg, four ounces of grated bread and three ounces of butter, beat the whole well in a mortar, with a dessert-spoonful of mustard, and a little salt and pepper. (Pg. 109—ed.) egg, four ounces of grated bread and three ounces of butter, beat the whole well in a mortar, with a dessert-spoonful of mustard, and a little salt and pepper. Toast some slices of bread, lay the paste thick upon it, put it for a minute before the fire and send to table very hot. TOASTED CHEESE.—2. Put into a clean sauce-pan a table-spoonful of either ale (not bitter) or cold water; add some slices of toasting cheese, and let it simmer until it is melted, stirring it all the time. Have ready in a bowl some good ale, sweeten it to the taste with moist sugar and add some grated nutmeg. Toast slices of bread without either burn or crust, put them hot into the bowl, to take the chill off the ale, then put a slice of the toast on a hot plate for each person, and pour upon it as much of the cooked cheese as may be agreeable. Take out of the bowl any remaining toast there may be left; stir well the sugar from the bottom, and drink the ale after eating the cheese. Google Books Luncheons: A Cook's Picture Book by Mary Arnold New York, NY: The Century Co. 1902 Pg. 209: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Make a filling of grated cheese, toast the sandwiches on both sides, and serve them hot. Google Books Louis' Every Woman's Cook Book by Louis Muckensturm New York, NY: Dodge Publishing Company 1910 Pg. 104: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Cut and toast six slices of bread. Cover three of them with thin slices of American cheese, and put in the oven in a tin pan. When the cheese is nearly melted, place the other slices of toast on top; keep the sandwiches for two more minutes in the oven to have them very hot. Trim off the crust and serve in a covered dish. 14 June 1910, Syracuse (NY) Post-Standard, pg. 12, col. 1: A quick dainty to whip up in the chafing dish is toasted cheese sandwiches, which are not widely known. Wheaten bread is used for these. Cut in rather thick slices and trim off the crusts. Between each two slices put a thick slice of cheese. Season, if liked, with salt and paprika. Melt in the blazer, a tablespoonful of butter, and when it reaches bubbling point lay in as many sandwiches as the dish will hold at one time conveniently. There must be room to turn them. Have the hot plates ready nearby. When the bread is brown on one side, turn and brown on the other. By this time the cheese will be melted between them and the sandwiches are ready to be enjoyed. 29 March 1911, Stevens Point (WI) Gazette, pg. 14, col. 3: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches. Make round sandwiches (round loaf is best) with slice of thin rich cheese the same size of the thin sliced bread. Brown butter in chafing dish and fry a good brown. Serve at once on individual plates. Fine for afternoon tea. 19 June 1913, Waukesha (WI) Freeman, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: Have You Tried Our Toasted Cheese Sandwiches? 26 November 1913, Grand Forks (ND) Daily Herald, pg. 8: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches. Plain bread and butter with slices of cheese put between as sandwiches are toasted or browned in the chafing dish after frying bacon. Google Books Meatless Cookery by Maria McIlvaine Gillmore 1914 Pg. 210: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Plain bread and butter sandwiches with fairly thick slices of cheese put between the slices are toasted, or at chafing-dish suppers may be browned in a pan. Use a slow heat that the cheese may be melted when the bread is browned. 4 August 1914, Wilkes-Barre (PA) Times-Leader, pg. 10: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches Cut slices of bread a little more thickly than is usual for sandwiches, spread 1 slice with butter and the other with a filling made by grating or grinding through a food chopper 1/2 pound of cheese, to which may be added any desired seasonings, as, for instance, a few drops of onion juice, a little butter if the cheese is dry, a little fresh or canned pepper or a sprinkling of nuts. Spread the filling generously on the bread, press the two slices firmly together and toast the outer surfaces, during which process the cheese will slightly melt. Serve very hot, not preparing the sandwiches until ready to place them on the table. 29 August 1917, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. 7: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Prepare toast, dip in hot salted water. Spread slice with grated cheese; place in a pan in oven long enough to melt the cheese. Put slices together as sandwiches. Feeding America The International Jewish Cook Book by Florence Kreisler Greenbaum New York, NY: Bloch Publishing Company\ 1919 Pg. 9: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES The filling for the toasted cheese sandwiches calls for a cup of soft, mild cheese, finely cut, and stirred over the fire with a tablespoon of butter until the cheese is melted. Enough milk to moisten, perhaps not more than one-eighth of a cup, is then added, with salt, mustard and paprika to taste, and the whole is stirred until creamy and smooth. Slices of bread are very thinly buttered, the cheese mixture spread on generously, each slice covered with another slice, and set away until the filling cools and hardens, when the sandwiches are toasted on both sides and served hot. Google Books Castelar Crèche Cook Book by Board of Directors, Castelar Crèche Home for Homeless Babies Los Angeles, CA: Times- Mirror Printing and Binding House 1922 Pg. 255: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICH Remove crusts from slices of bread and then butter the slices thinly. Spread 1 slice with finely minced ham and place over this a slice of American cheese sprinkled with cayenne pepper and salt, then add another slice of bread, more cheese, properly seasoned, and finally a third slice of bread. Toast these under a gas broiler and when the cheese is melted, cut diagonally, making triangular sandwiches. 22 April 1929, Syracuse (NY) Herald, section X, pg. 16, col. 7: Dishes That May Be Prepared on an Electric Grill. 1. All types of hot sandwiches such as grilled cheese, tongue and egg, club, sardine, etc. Google Books The Edgewater Sandwich Book by Arnold Shircliffe Chicago, IL: J. Willy, Inc. Page 156 ... and in the eating you will find that the yells are blended into a delicious whole. Toast See French Toast Toasted Cheese Sandwich (Open) Toast, ... 7 June 1930, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 14, col. 1: AUTO LUNCHES FOR THE WEEK-END TRIP GRILLED CHEESE SAND- WICHES DELIGHTFUL WHEN MADE IN THE OPEN (...) Grilled cheese sandwiches are delightful when made in the open. Lay large, thin slices of cheese between two slices of buttered bread. Either toast these on the end of a green stick or a gridiron or saute them in bacon fat in a saucepan. Those who take long hikes will be interested to know that if cheese is wrapped in a cloth moistened with vinegar, it will not mold so quickly. 25 January 1934, Milford (Iowa) Mail, pg. 2, col. 5: Miriam Lowenberg, of the foods and nutrition department at Iowa state has a special grilled cheese sandwich that goes straight to the heart. She spreads whole cream cheese on unbuttered bread, adds a bit of prepared mustard to which a drop of Worcestershire sauce has been added, then—and this is what makes it different—she butters the outside of the sandwich lightly and toasts it in the broiler oven, or browns it quickly in a heavy skillet. 21 February 1934, Huntingdon (PA) Daily News, pg. 7, col. 5: Grilled cheese sandwiches are nice, but you'd be surprised at the amount of difference added to the taste if halved walnuts are pressed into the cheese while the sandwich is warm. It's decidedly an improvement. 31 January 1935, The Garfieldian (Chicago, IL), pg. 6 ad: MALTED MILK and Grilled CHEESE SANDWICH 25c (Walgreen Drug Store—ed.) 29 May 1935, Huntingdon (PA) Daily News, pg. 7, col. 6: Grilled Cheese Sandwiches 4 October 1935, North Adams (MA) Transcript, pg. 9, col. 6 ad: Grilled Cheese Sandwich and Hot Chocolate, 20c 6 March 1936, Hammond (IN) Times, pg. 19, col. 5: Grilled Cheese Sandwiches 1 hard-cooked egg 1 1/2 tablespoons pimento 1 small onion 1/2 pound American cheese 1/2 cup evaporated milk 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon flour 1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce Put the egg, pimento and onion with the cheese through a food chopper using the medium knife. Melt the butter in a saucepan and add the flour with the seasoning. Add the milk and stir until the mixture comes to a boil. Combine this mixture with the cheese mixture and spread between slices of bread. Butter the outside of the bread and toast under a low flame until golden brown. 10 February 1938, Wisconsin Rapids (WI) Daily Tribune, pg. 7, col. 5 ad: GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH A tasty, filling delicious light lunch 14c (Ford Hopkins Drug Store—ed.) Live Search Books New York Panorama by Federal Writers' Project, New York City New York, NY: Random House 1938 Pg. 159 (The Local Vernacular): ...smear one, burn it for a toasted cheese sandwich;... 3 October 2007, New York Times, "No Glamour, but Sandwich Is a Star" by Jennifer Stenhauer: Thursday is grilled cheese night at Campanile, a standard-bearer of Italian dining in Los Angeles, and the restaurant's busiest night, when the tables bustle with families, hot daters, girls-night-out revelers downing prosecco, and divorced dads hoping to buy good will from their estranged children. The Melt Down, a restaurant in Culver City devoted to the gooey sandwich, has lines out the door at lunch. Every April is grilled cheese month at Clementine, a lunch spot near Century City, with an elaborate new theme each time. For the past four years, this city has also been home to the Grilled Cheese Invitational. Roughly 600 people show up at an unpublicized address, armed with frying pans and camping stoves, and are given 20 minutes to demonstrate their grilled cheese prowess. (One year, a contestant constructed an eight-foot grilled sandwich rendition of "The Gates" by Christo and Jeanne-Claude.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 02:51:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: Eggcorns? Message-ID: " ... _eyes glazed over_ ..." "His _eyes glassed over_." 2640 raw Google hits "My _eyes glossed over_." 890 raw Google hits; a mixture of obvious, IMO, eggcorns, with other stuff. Both "glassed over" and "glossed over" replace "glazed over," but "glossed over" is more often used in other, sometimes less-obvious, senses: "His _eyes glossed over_ Midori and shifted to Yuriko." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:07:50 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:07:50 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031624.l93G4KFW018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Ben! -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > > does "card shark" fit in? > > I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. > OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" > from 1858: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") > > "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of > the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was > hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I > really was hearing both!") > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:03:15 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031930.l93IE16q028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, back in the day? -Wilson On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British > influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named > 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). > > dInIs > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote > >and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account > >for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless > >it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was > >followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE > >dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found > >not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read > >probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is > >irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set > >the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used > >it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native > >speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what > >I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have > >to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. > > > >That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > >-Wilson > > > >On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Wilson, > >> > >> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > >> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> both). > >> > >> dInIs > >> > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >----------------------- > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> > > >> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> > > >> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > > >> > > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >>----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> >> > >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> >> > >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --Ben Zimmer > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dennis R. Preston > >> University Distinguished Professor > >> Department of English > >> 15C Morrill Hall > >> Michigan State University > >> East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> 517-353-4736 > >> preston at msu.edu > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit > himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man > thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred > North Whitehead > > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > Morrill Hall 15-C > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA > Office: (517) 353-4736 > Fax: (517) 353-3755 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:56:08 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) Message-ID: OED added the "immigration smuggler" sense to "coyote" last year, with a 1924 citation. Here are two cites from 1923 and and earlier one from 1924...It's strange that J. Frank Dobie wrote a book called "The Voice of the Coyote" and neither OED nor HDAS cited from it? ... I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." I don't understand how I can be adding 5 new entries a day, but my visits are down about 2,000 per day from three months ago (when I was out of the country and made one new entry an entire month). ... The Texas Oklahoma game is this weekend, and I see that my most popular entries are "Tuck Fexas," "Fuck Texas," and "Fuck Y'all, I'm from Texas." (But not more than $5-a-day popular.) ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/coyotes_wolves_of_the_border_immigration_smugglers/ ... Entry from October 04, 2007 Coyotes ("wolves of the border" immigration smugglers) The coyote is an animal seen in the Southwest; J. Frank Dobie's The Voice of the Coyote (1949) tells of the folklore of the coyote. Smugglers of aliens (Mexicans and other nationalities) into the United States from Mexico have been called "coyotes" or "wolves of the border" since at least 1923. The 1918 silent film Wolves of the Border might have influenced both terms. Wikipedia: People smuggling People smuggling is a term which is used to describe transportation of people across international borders to a non-official entry point of a destination country for a variety of reasons. Typically those being transported may not have adequate formal travel documents or prior approval to enter the destination country. (...) In the Southwest United States, a "coyote" is a person paid to smuggle illegal immigrants across the border between Mexico and the United States. Snakeheads are smugglers from China who smuggle people into the United States and other Western countries. Internet Movie Database Wolves of the Border (1918) Director: Clifford Smith Writer: Alan James Release Date: 12 May 1918 (USA) more Genre: Western Plot Synopsis: This plot synopsis is empty. Add a synopsis Plot Keywords: Cowboy / Kidnapping / Rancher / Rescue Internet Movie Database Wolves of the Border (1923) Director: Alan James Release Date: 15 January 1923 (USA) more Genre: Western / Comedy / Drama (Oxford English Dictionary) coyote, n. Zool. The name, in Mexico and now in the United States, of the prairie- or barking-wolf (Canis latrans) of the Pacific slope of North America. (...) U.S. slang. A person hired to assist people in illegally crossing the border from Mexico into the United States. 1924 Los Angeles Times 4 June I. 12/7 There has been..the immigration service says, a band of criminals on this border, known as 'coyotes', who live by preying upon persons wishing to secure an easy entrance to the United States. 1943 Econ. Geogr. 19 359/2 The facilitators of illegal entrance, the smugglers or 'coyotes', the contractors or 'engachistas' who provided peons with jobs over the border. 1972 Los Angeles Times 17 Sept. (West Mag. section) 19/3 The coyote took us by way of Tecate in a station wagon… He let us out on the highway and we waited there..to lose the border patrol. (Historical Dictionary of American Slang) coyote n. Police. S.W. a labor contractor or other person who brings illegal immigrants into the U.S. from Mexico. 1929 Gill Und. Slang: Coyotes—Labor agents. 1970 S. Steiner La Raza 300: "Coyote!" is what the campesinos say of a man like Corrilio Macias. 1973 U.S. News & W.R. (July 23) 32: Smugglers, known as "coyotes" in the Mexican-American community in Los Angeles. 1974 Martinez & Longeaux y Vasquez La Raza 127: A worker in Mexico would be picked up by a labor smuggler—called a coyote. 1977 L.A. Times (Jan. 15) II 5: His name was Roberto and he paid a "coyote" 300 American dollars to smuggle him across the border. 24 May 1923, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Border Bandits Commit Many Murders: Immigration Inspector Says Recent Killing of Italians One of Many Similar Crimes," pg. 1, col. 8: A new race has sprung up on the Mexican side of the border, referred to often as the "wolves of the border." The greed for gold has got their blood aflame, and their prey is the simple European alien who wishes to make his home in America but is unable to comply with the immigration standards. ONE VICTIM ESCAPES. The recent murder of six Italians, who bartered for their passage across the Rio Grande only to be betrayed and shot down by their guides and robbed of their money, is believed to be only one of a series of wholesale murders the bandit smugglers have committed. (...) Captain Hanson, who has just returned from the border, believed that hundres of unsuspecting Europeans have met similar fates. The characters of the "coyotes" at the border are the lowest and "the murder of a fellow man means nothing to them,": he said. (...) Says Guides Are Coyotes. The "coyotes," as Captain Hanson refers to the guides, then return to take another party and if any questions are asked they simply state that the party has been safely carried across the river, with no one to deny their statement. 27 June 1923, San Antonio (TX) Express, "Scores of Mexicans Use Others' Head Tax Receipts to Enter United States," pg. 1, col. 2: Reports from Laredo Tuesday also told of the arrest of one German alien who claimed to have been robbed by "coyotes," the Mexican nickname for those who smuggle aliens across the river, the German charging that $150 had been taken from him. (...) (Col. 3 --ed.) He explained that the alien passes through the hands of about five "coyotes" before he reaches the American side of the river and ultimately falls into the hands of government officers who place him in jail for deportation. 11 January 1924, New Castle (PA) News, pg. 2, col. 6: With legal entrance of aliens practically cut off until June 30 the border "coyotes" a smugglers term for a criminal class which preys upon foreigners anxious to enter this country are becoming more active in piloting an undesirable class over the Mexican border, according to official reports. 19 January 1948, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "More Talk About Coyotes" by J. Frank Dobie, section I, pg. 13: In Mexican popular speech, coyote means: a pettifogger, a thief, any kind of shyster or go-between, a curbstone broker, a fixer who has "pull" to sell, an oil or mining scout with "practical experience" in selling leases, also the respectable Minister of Mines, a drink of mixed beer and brandy. As Lumholtz puts it, "the regard that the Indians have for their Mexican masters is shown in the name by which they refer to them—coyotes." Use in Southwestern States. On the border, a smuggler of aliens is called a coyote-enganchista. In the interior of Texas a certain kind of agent, often a jackleg lawyer, who hangs around court houses and charges ignorant Mexicans outrageous fees for services as commonplace as getting a notary public's certification is called a coyote. He is often a Mexican himself. In New Mexico, the name, among other meanings, denotes a half-breed—a mixture of Anglo and Hispano bloods or of Caucasian and Indian—who is loyal to neither line. Mexicans call bastard children coyotitos. Without aspersion they call also the last child in a family a coyotito. In the folklore of ignorance—and not all folklore by any means springs from ignorance—the coyote is a cross between lobo and fox. Google Books The Voice of the Coyote by J. Frank Dobie Boston, MA: Little, Brown 1949 Pg. 258: On the border, a smuggler-over of aliens is called a coyote enganchista. 10 April 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "INS nominee appears capable for job," section A, pg. 11: "We need tougher laws on the smugglers, the coyotes, the guys who smuggle people. They smuggle people and the penalties we assess are relatively light." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 5 02:04:07 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:04:07 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041912.l94JBvlc027535@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious >political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as >honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know >[although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier >letter from "Trusty Roger" does. But some people are just named Roger or Diana. I don't see any sexual reference at all in Diana's letter. As for Roger's article, I think it's ambiguous; I'm not sure whether he's trying to be suggestive or not and if he is I have no idea whether he's justified. Maybe it's all a joke with no substance. OTOH, maybe he's underestimating an outrageous truth. I just don't think we can tell from so little material. There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony used to say. Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called "hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 5 10:06:06 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:06:06 -0400 Subject: minor antedating: "bats in his belfry" (1897) In-Reply-To: <20071003090154.0n1jzh6680408sgc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: The North American (Philadelphia, PA) Monday, July 26, 1897; pg. 4; col C Americanisms (News) [19th C US N] If you would be up to date don't tell a man he has trolleys in his head; but impress upon him the fact that he has "bats in his belfry." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 5 11:38:24 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:38:24 -0400 Subject: "Cracker Jack" (1870, 1884...) Message-ID: Is this relevant or not for the origin of "cracker jack"? 1870 The Milwaukee Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Thursday, October 06, 1870; Issue 235; page 3, col A. A Cup of Cold Water Category: News [19th C US N] [col. D]....Chicago has lately seen an Indian half-breed who played at billiards so well, that he beat even "Cracker Jack," "Pete Snyder," and other billiard sharps. 1879 Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Friday, October 10, 1879; pg. 5; Issue 163; col E. Paying the Penalty Execution of McManus, the Molly Maguire?The Crime for Which He Suffered Category: News [col. F] Bloomingtin Ill. Oct. 9--Deputy Sheriff Cook arrived from Kansas City this morning with Jack McKeern, alias "Cracker Jack," who was recently indicted for highway robbery. 1884 St. Louis Globe-Democrat, (St. Louis, MO) Wednesday, October 15, 1884; pg. 6; Issue 146; col E Murdered by a Mob Two Terrible Crimes Stain the Annals of Callaway County Category: News [col. F] ....Jack McKern, a noted rough, known as "Cracker Jack," was sentenced to one tear in the Penitentiary for burglary. 1888 The Daily Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Sunday, September 02, 1888; pg. 12; Issue 165; col A. Celestials on the Diamond San Francisco Mongolians Wallop the Chicago Contingent by a Large Majority Category: News ....Then came the slugger, the shot-stop [sic], Wung Fung. He would get eighth money in a field of nine ordinary, corner-lot, street-gamins, as a batsman, but he was a "cracker jack" in this class." Lifting the willow, with that easy grace with which a coal-heaver would handle a billiard-cue, he "lined her out. 1888ff it spread into horse racing (cf ads-l archives, and stayed in baseball, and still in billiards:) 1891 The Daily Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Monday, November 23, 1891; pg. 6; Issue 244; col C Billiardist Berger Michael Geary on the First Great Ivory Pusher Category: News ....he was a billiard-player...and a cracker-jack. 1892 Bismarck Daily Tribune, (Bismarck, ND) Tuesday, February 09, 1892; pg. 2; col A It seems, according to goosipy newspaper reports, that Congressman Johnson was not the only gentleman taken in by "Cracker Jack" a noted character about Washington 1892 Morning Oregonian, (Portland, OR) Sunday, March 20, 1892; pg. 16; Issue 8; col C Gossip of Sports The Dudley Medal Contest Today Category: Sports Mitchell says he [a boxer] is a cracker jack and thinks he can beat Bogan. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 12:23:22 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:23:22 +0000 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710050425.l954PJg7006207@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's pronounced "pack" in American English. The best choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in "Saab". In truespel it would be ~paak. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 > From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that > the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by > the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. > Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, > back in the day? > > -Wilson > > On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British >> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named >> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). >> >> dInIs >> >> >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. >>> >>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it. >>> >>>-Wilson >>> >>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Wilson, >>>> >>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >>>> both). >>>> >>>> dInIs >>>> >>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >>>>>gwine _ter_ do it." >>>>> >>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >>>>> >>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.` >>>>> >>>>>-Wilson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --Ben Zimmer >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>>----- >>>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dennis R. Preston >>>> University Distinguished Professor >>>> Department of English >>>> 15C Morrill Hall >>>> Michigan State University >>>> East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>> 517-353-4736 >>>> preston at msu.edu >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>----- >>> -Sam'l Clemens >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> -- >> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit >> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man >> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred >> North Whitehead >> >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of English >> Morrill Hall 15-C >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA >> Office: (517) 353-4736 >> Fax: (517) 353-3755 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Oct 5 12:50:15 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:50:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710051223.l95AkxFb020804@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: /pak/ is, of course, not a recommendation for a spelling, as the /'s indicate. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Zurinskas >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it >contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's >pronounced "pack" in American English. The best >choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in >"Saab". In truespel it would be ~paak. > >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus >"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 >> From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that >> the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by >> the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. >> Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, >> back in the day? >> >> -Wilson >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the >>>mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British >>> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named >>> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). >>> >>> dInIs >>> >>> >>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >>>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >>>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >>>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >>>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >>>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >>>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >>>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >>>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >>>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >>>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >>>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >>>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >>>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. >>>> >>>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it. >>>> >>>>-Wilson >>>> >>>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Wilson, >>>>> >>>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >>>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >>>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >>>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >>>>> both). >>>>> >>>>> dInIs >>>>> >>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >>>>>>gwine _ter_ do it." >>>>>> >>>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >>>>>> >>>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >>>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >>>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >>>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >>>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >>>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >>>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.` >>>>>> >>>>>>-Wilson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>>>----- >>>>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dennis R. Preston >>>>> University Distinguished Professor >>>>> Department of English >>>>> 15C Morrill Hall >>>>> Michigan State University >>>>> East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>>> 517-353-4736 >>>>> preston at msu.edu >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>----- >>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit >>> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man >>> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred >>> North Whitehead >>> >>> Dennis R. Preston >>> University Distinguished Professor >>> Department of English >>> Morrill Hall 15-C >>> Michigan State University >>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA >>> Office: (517) 353-4736 >>> Fax: (517) 353-3755 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office >Outlook ñ together at last. Get it now. >http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 5 14:29:12 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071005020406.XNZV25784.mta9.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 10:04 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: [I had written:] >>This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious >>political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as >>honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know >>[although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier >>letter from "Trusty Roger" does. > >But some people are just named Roger or Diana. In the 18th century pseudonymity was prevalent. Serious letter writers chose constructed Latin names, sometimes related to the subject or point of view (such as Philopatria or Cato), or left their letters unsigned (often the signature would be "A Friend"), or (less frequently) signed their real names (as I assume the "Andrew Merrill" is on one of the hunc-over-de letters). I don't think any *serious* letter-writer would sign "Trusty Roger". Nor is it my impression that letter-writers signed with only a (real) first name. >I don't see any sexual >reference at all in Diana's letter. I admit I don't either, in the letter, but we are removed nearly 300 years from the style of humor. And once again I see I carelessly omitted parts of both letters, "return addresses" below each signature. "Trusty Roger"s letter ends: ---------------- Your Humble Servant, Trusty Roger Direct for me at the Sign of the Torn-Gown and Towsled Headcloaths near the Bowling-Green. ---------------- Strong evidence for sexual suggestion, I think. And an example of a "punch line", reserving the clue that the letter is satiric or comic to the very end? "Diana"s letter ends: ------------ Diana. P.S. Direct for me at the Sign of Descretion [sic] between the Fortification and the Old-Slip. ----------------- Is this "discretion", "desecration", or a clever play on both? Does it have a sexual or defecatory tinge? >As for Roger's article, I think >it's ambiguous; I'm not sure whether he's trying to be suggestive or >not and if he is I have no idea whether he's justified. Maybe it's >all a joke with no substance. OTOH, maybe he's underestimating an >outrageous truth. I just don't think we can tell from so little material. I am convinced that the set of three letters-to-the-editor are trying to be all three: serious about party factionalism (a significant cause of contention at that time, although I know Massachusetts, but very little about New York), satiric, and suggestive. I agree that the material is limited for this instance. But my view of it comes from familiarity with other 18th-century newspaper essays and letters. Joel >There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ >from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) >is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony >used to say. > >Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called >"hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century >writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a >contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: >10/4/2007 8:59 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 5 16:16:40 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:16:40 -0700 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200710032050.l93IE1E2028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't answer Joan's precise question about what's theoretically available, but as of today our library is still using the old edition, Series I, II, III only. JL "Joan H. Hall" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 5 16:19:40 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:19:40 -0700 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200710040033.l940Qwe7028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I or someone else may have already metioned that Google and Google Books occasionally exhibit the same problem. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do not include the story I started from. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry A. Popik" Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Never heard about that. > ... > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > was there, > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > ... > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > I > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > already knew > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > ... > Oh, I got stories. > ... > --Barry Popik > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 5 16:27:34 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:27:34 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <549069.99245.qm@web53909.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There seems to be confusion in this thread between Newspaperarchive and America's Historical Newspapers. The latter is the product that would typically be used in university libraries. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com I can't answer Joan's precise question about what's theoretically available, but as of today our library is still using the old edition, Series I, II, III only. JL "Joan H. Hall" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 5 16:20:51 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710050503.l94MmYmJ012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/4/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ > from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) > is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony > used to say. Yet another spelling is "hunkedee", as in this story about Quaker children in Philadelphia: 1869 _Riverside Magazine for Young People_ June 242/1 Sometimes they played "Hunkedee," and made such a noise that they had to be rung in before their time by the head teacher. [HNP Doc ID 728441322] > Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called > "hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century > writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a > contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? Here's one example (the game's not explicitly described, but it's in the context of playground activities): 1842 _Spirit of the Times_ 5 Nov. 421/2 The festivities of the occasion were prolonged to a late hour in the evening, and after having bent his intense energies to his share in the performance of "Buck! Buck! how many horns?" and the still more exciting divertisement of "Hunk over Dee!" he returned home, reeking from his exercise, with his head anointed with a moist molasses lump, which, in the innocence of his heart, he had thrust into his cap out of sight of his playmates. [HNP Doc ID 792663732] --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Oct 5 17:09:44 2007 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Darla Wells) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:09:44 -0500 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) In-Reply-To: <200710050456.l94MmYlb012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Do they have dipped chicken in that part of Texas? In Wichita Falls, you can get your fried chicken "dipped" that is dipped in jalapeno juice. Wonderful stuff. It may just be a local thing; I haven't seen it anywhere else. Darla Wells With magic, you can turn a frog into a prince. With science, you can turn a frog into a Ph.D and you still have the frog you started with. (Terry Pratchett) ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Barry Popik To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED added the "immigration smuggler" sense to "coyote" last year, > with a 1924 citation. Here are two cites from 1923 and and earlier > one from 1924...It's strange that J. Frank Dobie wrote a book called > "The Voice of the Coyote" and neither OED nor HDAS cited from it? > ... I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border > Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the > Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." I don't understand how I > can be adding 5 new entries a day, but my visits are down about 2,000 > per day from three months ago (when I was out of the country and made > one new entry an entire month). > ... > The Texas Oklahoma game is this weekend, and I see that my most > popular entries are "Tuck Fexas," "Fuck Texas," and "Fuck Y'all, I'm > from Texas." (But not more than $5-a-day popular.) > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/coyotes_wolves_of_the_border_immigration_smugglers/ > ... > Entry from October 04, 2007 > Coyotes ("wolves of the border" immigration smugglers) > The coyote is an animal seen in the Southwest; J. Frank Dobie's The > Voice of the Coyote (1949) tells of the folklore of the coyote. > Smugglers of aliens (Mexicans and other nationalities) into the > United States from Mexico have been called "coyotes" or "wolves of > the border" since at least 1923. The 1918 silent film Wolves of the Border > might have influenced both terms. > > Wikipedia: People smuggling > People smuggling is a term which is used to describe transportation > of people across international borders to a non-official entry point > of a destination country for a variety of reasons. Typically those being > transported may not have adequate formal travel documents or prior > approval to enter the destination country. > (...) > In the Southwest United States, a "coyote" is a person paid to > smuggle illegal immigrants across the border between Mexico and the United > States. Snakeheads are smugglers from China who smuggle people into > the United States and other Western countries. > > Internet Movie Database > Wolves of the Border (1918) > Director: Clifford Smith > Writer: Alan James > Release Date: 12 May 1918 (USA) more > Genre: Western > Plot Synopsis: This plot synopsis is empty. Add a synopsis > Plot Keywords: Cowboy / Kidnapping / Rancher / Rescue > > Internet Movie Database > Wolves of the Border (1923) > Director: Alan James > Release Date: 15 January 1923 (USA) more > Genre: Western / Comedy / Drama > > (Oxford English Dictionary) > coyote, n. > Zool. The name, in Mexico and now in the United States, of the > prairie- or barking-wolf (Canis latrans) of the Pacific slope of > North America. > (...) > U.S. slang. A person hired to assist people in illegally crossing > the border from Mexico into the United States. 1924 Los Angeles > Times 4 June I. 12/7 There has been..the immigration service says, a > band of criminals on this border, known as 'coyotes', who live by > preying upon persons wishing to secure an easy entrance to the > United States. 1943 Econ. Geogr. 19 359/2 The facilitators of > illegal entrance, the smugglers or 'coyotes', the contractors or > 'engachistas' who provided peons with jobs over the border. 1972 Los > Angeles Times 17 Sept. (West Mag. section) 19/3 The coyote took us > by way of Tecate in a station wagon He let us out on the highway > and we waited there..to lose the border patrol. > > (Historical Dictionary of American Slang) > coyote n. > Police. S.W. a labor contractor or other person who brings illegal > immigrants into the U.S. from Mexico. > 1929 Gill Und. Slang: Coyotes—Labor agents. > 1970 S. Steiner La Raza 300: "Coyote!" is what the campesinos say of > a man like Corrilio Macias. 1973 U.S. News & W.R. (July 23) 32: > Smugglers, known as "coyotes" in the Mexican-American community in > Los Angeles. 1974 Martinez & Longeaux y Vasquez La Raza 127: A > worker in Mexico would be picked up by a labor smuggler—called a coyote. > 1977 L.A. Times (Jan. 15) II 5: His name was Roberto and he paid a > "coyote" 300 American dollars to smuggle him across the border. > > 24 May 1923, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Border Bandits Commit Many > Murders: Immigration Inspector Says Recent Killing of Italians One of > Many Similar Crimes," pg. 1, col. 8: > A new race has sprung up on the Mexican side of the border, referred > to often as the "wolves of the border." The greed for gold has got > their blood aflame, and their prey is the simple European alien who > wishes to make his home in America but is unable to comply with the > immigration standards. > > ONE VICTIM ESCAPES. > The recent murder of six Italians, who bartered for their passage > across the Rio Grande only to be betrayed and shot down by their > guides and robbed of their money, is believed to be only one of a > series of wholesale murders the bandit smugglers have committed. > (...) > Captain Hanson, who has just returned from the border, believed that > hundres of unsuspecting Europeans have met similar fates. The > characters of the "coyotes" at the border are the lowest and "the > murder of a fellow man means nothing to them,": he said. > (...) > Says Guides Are Coyotes. > The "coyotes," as Captain Hanson refers to the guides, then return to > take another party and if any questions are asked they simply state > that the party has been safely carried across the river, with no one > to deny their statement. > > 27 June 1923, San Antonio (TX) Express, "Scores of Mexicans Use > Others' Head Tax Receipts to Enter United States," pg. 1, col. 2: > Reports from Laredo Tuesday also told of the arrest of one German > alien who claimed to have been robbed by "coyotes," the Mexican > nickname for those who smuggle aliens across the river, the German > charging that $150 had been taken from him. > (...) (Col. 3 --ed.) > He explained that the alien passes through the hands of about five > "coyotes" before he reaches the American side of the river and > ultimately falls into the hands of government officers who place him > in jail for deportation. > > 11 January 1924, New Castle (PA) News, pg. 2, col. 6: > With legal entrance of aliens practically cut off until June 30 the > border "coyotes" a smugglers term for a criminal class which preys > upon foreigners anxious to enter this country are becoming more > active in piloting an undesirable class over the Mexican border, > according to official reports. > > 19 January 1948, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "More Talk About Coyotes" > by J. Frank Dobie, section I, pg. 13: > In Mexican popular speech, coyote means: a pettifogger, a thief, any > kind of shyster or go-between, a curbstone broker, a fixer who has > "pull" to sell, an oil or mining scout with "practical experience" in > selling leases, also the respectable Minister of Mines, a drink of > mixed beer and brandy. As Lumholtz puts it, "the regard that the > Indians have for their Mexican masters is shown in the name by which > they refer to them—coyotes." > > Use in Southwestern States. > On the border, a smuggler of aliens is called a coyote-enganchista. > In the interior of Texas a certain kind of agent, often a jackleg > lawyer, who hangs around court houses and charges ignorant Mexicans outrageous > fees for services as commonplace as getting a notary public's > certification is called a coyote. He is often a Mexican himself. In > New Mexico, the name, among other meanings, denotes a half-breed—a > mixture of Anglo and Hispano bloods or of Caucasian and Indian—who is > loyal to neither line. Mexicans call bastard children coyotitos. > Without aspersion they call also the last child in a family a > coyotito. In the folklore of ignorance—and not all folklore by any > means springs from ignorance—the coyote is a cross between lobo and > fox. > > Google Books > The Voice of the Coyote > by J. Frank Dobie > Boston, MA: Little, Brown > 1949 > Pg. 258: > On the border, a smuggler-over of aliens is called a coyote enganchista. > > 10 April 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "INS nominee appears capable > for job," section A, pg. 11: > "We need tougher laws on the smugglers, the coyotes, the guys who > smuggle people. They smuggle people and the penalties we assess are > relatively light." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------- End of Original Message ------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 5 17:12:58 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:12:58 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <155011.30185.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As does Early American Newspapers -- not infrequent both false positives and false negatives. Joel At 10/5/2007 12:19 PM, you wrote: >I or someone else may have already metioned that Google and Google >Books occasionally exhibit the same problem. > > JL > >George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: George Thompson >Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither >the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's >Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail >to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had >a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some >distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do >not include the story I started from. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", >Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Barry A. Popik" >Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm >Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Never heard about that. > > ... > > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > > was there, > > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > > ... > > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > > I > > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > > already knew > > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > > ... > > Oh, I got stories. > > ... > > --Barry Popik > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone >who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 6 00:13:51 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:13:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yet another spelling is "hunkedee", as in this story about Quaker >children in Philadelphia: .... And there is "hunkety", with several examples at Google Books. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 6 01:40:23 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:40:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Request for German dictionary of computing terms Message-ID: Would anyone know of a German-English or English-German dictionary of computing terminology? A check of Google show several short lists of such terms, but I can't find a full-fledged dictionary. Does one exist? Any guidance would be very gratefully received. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Oct 6 12:31:58 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:31:58 -0400 Subject: antedating "fair to middling" (1827) Message-ID: New-York Spectator, (New York, NY) Friday, October 26, 1827; p.1 col E Multiple News Items Category: News [col. F] The exhibition [a fair and cattle-show in Brighton], we believe, was in no respect extraordinary, but in all respects, as our friend from the "Record" used to say of the molasses market at Thanksgivig, "from fair to middling." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 6 13:36:24 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:36:24 -0400 Subject: further antedating "fair to middling" (1824) In-Reply-To: <20071006083158.l1vnwn7fmkgg408k@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Eastern Argus (Portland, Maine), 23 March 1824, p. 3, col. 3. Advertisement J. Haskell Has just received 4 cases prime HATS, new style---also, 4 cases imitation HATS, at $2, "from fair to middling." Joel At 10/6/2007 08:31 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >New-York Spectator, (New York, NY) Friday, October 26, 1827; p.1 col E > Multiple News Items >Category: News [col. F] >The exhibition [a fair and cattle-show in Brighton], we believe, was in no >respect extraordinary, but in all respects, as our friend from the "Record" >used to say of the molasses market at Thanksgivig, "from fair to middling." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 18:52:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:52:21 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710041926.l94Faf5p012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah, Wellman! Who Fears the Devil is one of my all-time favorite books. IMHO, though, he should've stuck to his shorts, so to speak; I've read his novels once, and that's about that. m a m On 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Sat Oct 6 18:57:37 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:57:37 -0500 Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can’t distinguish between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes in literature have been given for language-related research. John Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, “Consequences of Erudite Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using Long Words Needlessly.” A write-up of this year’s winning research on rat foreign language backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that affected the rats’ comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats “failed to finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates.” Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 19:02:01 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:02:01 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) In-Reply-To: <200710050456.l94NN2vP025182@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Heh. I WAS going to mention Oat Willie, Barry, but I shoulda known you'd already been there. Third googit for "Onward thru the fog" is your Big Apple page for it. m a m On 10/5/07, Barry Popik wrote: > > ... > I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border > Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the > Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 6 19:47:06 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:47:06 -0400 Subject: Language-related 2007 Ig Nobel prizes [Was: Domo arigato...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Literature Ig Nobel was won this year by a book indexer: Glenda Browne of Blaxland, Blue Mountains, Australia, for her study of the word "the" -- and of the many ways it causes problems for anyone who tries to put things into alphabetical order. REFERENCE: "The Definite Article: Acknowledging 'The' in Index Entries," Glenda Browne, The Indexer, vol. 22, no. 3 April 2001, pp. 119-22. Joel At 10/6/2007 02:57 PM, Dennis Baron wrote: >There's a new post on >the Web of Language: > >Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand >Japanese backwards. Can you? > >The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three >researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can't distinguish >between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. > >The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable >Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the >actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first >time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes >in literature have been given for language-related research. John >Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 >for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences >between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of >Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, "Consequences of Erudite >Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using >Long Words Needlessly." > >A write-up of this year's winning research on rat foreign language >backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of >Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. >Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de >Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and >receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they >had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). >Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that >affected the rats' comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had >no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats "failed to >finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates." > >Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at > > the Web of Language > >www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > >Dennis Baron >Professor of English and Linguistics >Department of English >University of Illinois >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 > >office: 217-244-0568 >fax: 217-333-4321 > >www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron > >read the Web of Language: >www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 6 20:42:18 2007 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:42:18 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <200709281550.l8SCt8DQ020387@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. Unfortunately, I was too late for warmthiness: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004959.html Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 20:47:03 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:47:03 -0400 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname Message-ID: Will "teasipper" be in the next volume of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Dictionary of American Regional English, or an updated OED? What does HDAS have? ... There seems to be a lack of Texas A&M Aggie material here in Austin. I'd like to take a trip to College Station soon, but it sure would be nice to get some recognition or compensation for the stuff that I do. ... Any scholarly help or clues here? --Barry Popik ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tea_sipper_or_teasipper_tea_sip_or_teasip_university_of_texas_at_austin_stu/ ... Entry from October 06, 2007 Tea-sipper or Teasipper; Tea-sip or Teasip (University of Texas at Austin student nickname) Since at least the 1930s, the Texas A&M Aggies have called students of the University of Texas at Austin "tea-sippers" ( or "teasippers"), later "tea-sips" (or "teasips"). No one knows why. Some have speculated that "tea-sipper" is an Aggie tea-drinking interpretation of the famous "Hook 'em, Horns" hand gesture, but that hand gesture was invented by cheerleader Harley Clark in 1955—well after "tea-sipper" is first cited. Wikipedia: Glossary of Texas Aggie Terms Tea-sip A student of Texas A&M's archrival, the University of Texas at Austin. Urban Dictionary tea sipper word used by Texas A&M aggies to describe a Texas Longhorn. meant to be demeaning Why does that there tea sipper make more money than me? by Lindlof May 28, 2004 Urban Dictionary 1. tea-sip One who attends or attended the University of Texas (t.u.) in Austin, Texas. The term tea-sip (also spelled teasip, t-sip, or t sip) was started by students of Texas A&M University (aka. Aggies) in the early 1900's to belittle the well-to-do students of t.u. The University of Texas was traditionally the "rich" school which pumped out doctors, lawyers and the like. A&M was the blue collar school which traditionally taught Agriculture and Mechanics (engineering). The Aggies play the teasips on Thanksgiving day. I'm sick of all those hippy teasips in Austin. by Henry Hill Feb 8, 2005 2. tea-sip one who attends U.T. My friend Mitch is a tea-sip. by Aggie class '08 Nov 3, 2004 (Oxford English Dictionary) tea, n. (...) Objective and obj. gen., as...tea--sipper,... 1756 HANWAY Ess. Tea viii. 245 Were they the sons of *tea-sippers, who won the fields of Cressy and Agincourt? 25 November 1937, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 6, col. 1: THE FOLLOWING excerpts from a letter sent by Junie Schuler, Aggies freshman, gives an idea about the spirit at Aggieland: "The Aggies have been preparing for this day since the football season started, and we don't mean to let the tea sippers from Texas U. spoil our victory." 12 February 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Strolling the Campus" with Sam Weiner, pg. 13, col. 1: AGGIE LAMBAST TEXAS " TEA-SIPPERS." With the ROTC struggle pouring oil on the flames, the perennial rivalry between the Longhorns and Aggies flared into a white hot fire during the week, building up the basketball game tonight between the teams in a rough climax. The heated rivalry flared anew recently during an editorial battle between the Daily Texan campus newspaper ,and the Battalion, the Aggies' sheet. As usual, the students at Texas have been dubbed "tea-sippers" by the droll Aggies, and to carry outthe theme the Battalion editors have arranged for tea to be served to Texas students attending the game at College Station tonight. "It really hurts us," the Aggies said, " to think that the tea-sippers would have to go without their beverage while they're over here in the wilderness, so we got it arranged forthem to have their tea served during the game. The "tea-sippers" and the "tin-soldiers"—as the Texas students call the Aggies—struck up a bargain for tonight. If Texas wins, the Daily Texan writers, Pat Daniels, editor, and Clarence LaReche, sports editor, will write stories of the game for both the Daily Texan and the Battalion. If the Aggies win, however, the Battalion editors will condescend to cover the game for the "tea-sippers," giving it that peculiar Aggie twist which proves so annoying to the Texas boys, who dislike being called "tea-sippers." 2 November 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 8, col. 1: "If we had a one-horse team like Texas U., Conatser would shine more than soph Jack Crain ever could. We are looking forward to seeing the tea sippers tangle over here on Thanksgiving." 5 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News, "Inside Stuff" by Tommy Griffin, pg. 16, col. 1: The Ags, of course, call the Longhorns a bunch of tea-sippers. 6 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News pg. 16, "Inside Stuff" (the mail sack) by Tommy Griffin, col. 1: "College Station." "Mr. Thomas 'Tea-sipper' Griffin:" (...) "In the first place, whether we win or lose every game we play, we still think that we have the best team in the nation and will not go (Col. 2—ed.) running to hide in a corner like a bunch of yellow-bellied tea-sippers." (...) "W. G. (Billy) Williamson, Jr." "P. S. I'd rather be an Aggie Freshman the rest of my life than a Tea-sipping Senior." 1 January 1943, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 3, pg. 11: The differences between "share-croppers" and "tea-sippers" are something that loyal exes of both schools always remember. Time magazine Trouble in Texas Monday, May. 03, 1943 (...) Many Texans find the Austin students effete: to the Aggies (Texas A. & M. College), for example, many strapping Austin characters are "tea-sippers." 1 December 1946, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Forty Acres' Forecast" by Sara Jane Potts, section 5, pg. 7: AUSTIN.—If Yankees coming to Texas have been wondering where all those cowboys were, they would have found them marching in Memorial Stadium, where the Texas Teasippers knocked out the Texas Aggies by a comfortable count of 24 to 7 in the traditional Turkey Day game. 23 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 2: He did get in on a chorus of "Let's get Texas; let's get those teasippers." 30 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 8: Bill Sullivan, the kicker-off, helped start the rally with a thundering: "We got those teasippers." 28 January 1951, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Steers, Aggies Set Grid Date," part 2, pg. 1: AUSTIN, Texas, Jan. 27 (AP).—The Aggies and the Teasippers finally got together on something Saturday, but it took considerable bickering to do it. 5 March 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 6: Two ex-Aggies wired Sen. William T. Moore, Bryan, that he was a tea sipper, the derogatory term Aggies fling at University of Texas students. 7 August 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News part 1, pg. 14: "Wouldn't this be a good spot for a UT teasipper to drop a grenade!" 30 November 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Ags Give Credit to Bryant," part 1, pg. 26: The seniors on the Aggie ball club were rounded up into a corner of the room for pictures. Suddenly, they began rattling the rafters with the chant, "Poo-o-o-r teasips." 13 July 1964, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Please Pass The Tea" by Roy Edwards, section 2, pg. 2: Although he played three years of varsity football at A&M, including the 1941 championship team that lost to Texas, and coached at Aggieland eight years under three head coaches, Zapalac has learned to talk teasipper already. 15 November 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Why Are Longhorns Styled "Tea-Sippers'?" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: SHE WROTE: "I'm not chauvanistic about University of Texas football, although I took my bachelor's degree at Texas. However, since the Longhorns started losing football games, I've noticed that more and more people refer to University of Texas students as 'tea-sippers'. This term is particularly popular with the Texas Aggies. I'm a little annoyed over this and I wonder who was the mischievous person who put the nickname of tea-sippers on Texas students? Please don't use my name since I have a brother-in-law who is a TCU ex and who has a rather heavy-handed sense of humor." WELL, AT THE lady's command, I did some rather unsuccessful research on the "tea-sippers" nickname for University of Texas scholars. I'd heard a legend that it all began when the great coach, Dana Xenophon Bible, started his gridiron renaissance at Texas in the late 1930's and, according to the yarn, used to serve hot tea and cookies at athletic gatherings. Mr. Bible, in his deep echoing bass voice, denied this emphatically. "I never held any teas," he said. Another patriarch of University of Texas sports, Theo Blemont, Longhorn athletic director from 1913 to 1929, also could give me no clue. MY RESEARCH DID show that late in the 19th century, in the Texas Panhandle "teasipper" was a popular term of good-natured scorn for the dandified Britishers who owned several of the larger ranches, such as Lord Tweedmouth and the Earl of Aberdeen of the Rocking Chaire Ranche near Wellington, Texas. This was, of course, long before any chuck wagon cook even dreamed of serving ice tea. And the rough Panhandle cowboys, much given to coffee drinking, were mystified by the British ranchers' ritualistic tea sipping. One British proprietor of a Panhandle ranch objected, at first, to the democratic custom of the owners eating as the same table with the "cow servants", as he called the hands. Cape Willingham, a famous cowboy who was later the first sheriff of Tascoa, commented on this: "Can you imagine that tea-sipper thinks I ain't good enough to eat with him! And me a boy that can ride anything that grows hair!" 26 December 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 24: MOST AGGIES considered them a form of envy, a point of pride. They fought back with barbed wit aimed at "Sips" (short of T-Sip, or Tea-sipper, any person unfortunate enough to enroll at the University of Texas) and Baptists, or Deacons, from Baylor University. 27 April 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section B, pg. 2: "They're both tea-sips. It's going to be an orange wedding." 27 May 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: "He," remarked the cadet of the Person up there, "must have been a tea-sip." 27 October 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section D, pg. 2: As a "Tea-Sip," wife of one, mother of two and mother-in-law of one and, as a subscriber to both the Daily Texan and the Austin American, I feel that I am far better qualified to evaluate the university than Mr. Fessi after one trip to one campus dormitory. 21 February 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Bully Gilstrap Theory on 'Tea-Sipper' Label" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 21: WHY ARE University of Texas at Austin students and even former UT students, scoffingly called "tea-sippers". Questions about this tea-sipper label have come to my desk in a sudden covey of letters, an occurrence I blame on the fact that the dog star is not presently in ascendency. On his rancho near Rosebud, Texas, a real authority on the University of Texas' past, the Hon. Bully Gilstrip, proper his bare feet up on a coffee table (Bully goes bare-footed a lot except during sticker season) and gave me this answer: "The tea-sipper insult is involved with out 'hook 'em horns!' signal, with which followers of the university's athletic teams have been gesturing their allegiance for several decades." BULLY GILSTRAP raised a massive paw in the "hook 'em horns" finger positions, with the middle fingers folded and the fore finger and little finger erect. Mr. Gilstrap declared that this gesture by Texas U. aficionados and aficionadas called up to Texas Aggie minds the act of daintily holding a tea cup with the little finger at high port. "And that's why Aggies, generations ago, started calling us Texas U. folks tea-sippers," said Bully, who spent a quarter of a century as a star athlete and then a coach who became a kind of "institution" at the University of Texas. "BULLY'S WRONG" chorused Mike Quinn, Paul Crume and WIlbur Evans, all stout Orangemen although not necessarily to obnoxious degrees. "That 'hook 'em horns' salute was first innovated by a University of Texas cheer-leader named Harley Clark, now an Austin lawyer, late in the 1950's," said Mr. Quinn. "Bully says they were making the hook 'em salute when he played on an unbeaten Texas football team 51 years ago," I said in rebuttal. "And one story is that the tea-sipper tag was hung on the university in the late 1930's or early 1940's when Dana X. Bible was head football coach and he was said to serve tea and cookies to his athletes as a light meal before games," said Mr. Crume. DANA XENOPHON Bible, the 82-year-old head coach emeritus of the University of Texas who was also a successful head football coach at LSU, Texas A&M, and the University of Nebraska, was asked about this. "Ridiculous," he said. "I never held any teas for football players." Mr. Bible was coach at Texas A&M from 1917 until he went to Nebraska in 1928. And he declared: "As I recall University of Texas people were being called tea-sippers at the time I had my great unbeaten, untied, and unscored on football team at A&M in 1917." (The same team, which didn't operate in 1918 because the coach and most of the players had gone to war, lost its only game 3-7 in the 1920 season, and these were the only points scored on the team during 3 seasons.) WILBUR EVANS, a University of Texas product who is doing a book on A&M, said that he seemed to recall a reference to "tea-sippers" in an ancient version of the Texas Aggie War Song. The lusty lyrics for The War Song were written in the trenches of France in 1918 by an Aggie, James V. (Pinky) Wilson, and begin "Hulla-balloo, hulla-ballo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." and have that refrain "Goodye to Texas Universi-tee, etc." Mr. Evans thinks the War Song may have once had lyrics which went something like this: "T is for Texas U.? Hell no! T is for tea-sippers: Hulla-ballo, hulla-baloo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." MR. CRUME said that the 2 uplifted fingers resemble snails, at least with his hand, and signify the slowness of Longhorn running backs. 4 September 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: Many University of Texas graduates have plates saying "HOOK EM" or some other variant. The ones that can't get "Hook 'Em" get a variant of "TEA SIP," which describes us old Texas boys who never take strong drink. Google Books The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas Music and Lyrics by Carol Hall Book by Larry l. King and Peter Masterson Based on a story by Larry L. King New York, NY: Samuel French, Inc. 1983 Pg. 56: AGGIE I. YeeeeHaw! Didn't them Teasippers step in a deep pile of Aggie Shit! College Football Forum October 05, 2006 9:17 AM (...) "tea sip" - Student of University of Texas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Oct 7 00:26:57 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:26:57 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! Message-ID: On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: I'M A-WISHIN' FOR A BETTER COMMISSION There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. (We could do pronunciation too, of course.) Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 00:27:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:27:53 -0400 Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? In-Reply-To: <200710061859.l96AoTmv012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, the rats may very well have been bilingual in Catalan and Castillian. Not that this, even if true, vitiates your point. :-) -Wilson On 10/6/07, Dennis Baron wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand > Japanese backwards. Can you? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There's a new post on > the Web of Language: > > Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand =20 > Japanese backwards. Can you? > > The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three =20 > researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can=92t distinguish =20= > > between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. > > The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable =20 > Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the =20 > actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first =20 > time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes =20= > > in literature have been given for language-related research. John =20 > Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 =20 > for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences =20 > between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of =20 > Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, =93Consequences of Erudite =20 > Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using =20 > Long Words Needlessly.=94 > > A write-up of this year=92s winning research on rat foreign language =20 > backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of =20 > Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. =20 > Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de =20 > Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and =20= > > receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they =20 > had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). =20= > > Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that =20 > affected the rats=92 comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had =20= > > no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats =93failed to =20 > finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates.=94 > > Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at > > the Web of Language > > www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > Dennis Baron > Professor of English and Linguistics > Department of English > University of Illinois > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > > office: 217-244-0568 > fax: 217-333-4321 > > www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron > > read the Web of Language: > www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 02:04:52 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 22:04:52 -0400 Subject: paralepsis Message-ID: In another forum, I just used the word "paralepsize" as a nonce coinage in the sense 'to suggest something by saying you won't mention it', from "paralepsis". Then I looked for it in OED Online and got There are no results. The nearest alphabetical match-point is displayed in the side-frame. and that was "paralerema, n". "What?", I thought, "don't they have 'paralepsis'?!" And the answer is, not exactly: it is listed only as an irregular form of "paralipsis", in centuries "15 19-". I was surprised, having known the word for years, but only in the "e" spelling. Googits are about 2-1 for the "i" spelling: "about 21,300 for paralipsis" "about 10,300 for paralepsis" m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 03:44:04 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 23:44:04 -0400 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname Message-ID: My Texas Longhorns lost to the Oklahoma Sooners today. Bunch of tea-sippers. ... I looked again, and it appears that the nickname comes from the November 1936 and should appear when I check the Houston Post. ... ... ... 3 November 1936, Galveston Daily News, "Here's the Dope" by Bill Van Fleet, pg. 6, col. 1: WE'VE never been lynched, nor have we seen any other sports writer lynched, but the stage was pretty well set for one or two sports writers we could name to be the main-most characters at a first-class neck-stretchin' over the weekend on the University of Texas campus. We wandered up there Saturday in the course of a trip to cover the S. M. U.-Texas game, and found the students to be in an uproar, principally about what Lloyd Gregory of the Houston Post had said about the Longhorns and their type of play against Rice the week before. Gregory, having seen the Longhorns play a dirty brand of football against Rice, had charged them with that kind of play in black and white, and it wasn't sitting so well with the Texas campus. It so happened that we had written along the very same lines as Gregory, and any charges that the two of us might have "framed up" the charges can bi dissipated by proof of the fact the two of us didn't see each other at the game or afterward, and that neither knew the other was there. FRIDAY NIGHT at the pep rally preceding the S. M. U. game the students were given a new song, purportedly written by Gregory, to sing. They sang it then and at the game Saturday they kept singing it until S. M. U. became too stout for the Steers. Then there wasn't much singing at all. The song, funny enough if you forget that it is doing an injustice to a guy who had the nerve to write what he saw, follows: A gridirons' just for tea and toast Take if from the Houston Post If a man would run and twist Only slap him on the wrist. (...) ... ... ... 26 November 1936, San Antonio Light, pg. 5B, col. 1: Tea, Toast, Honey All The Boys Get AUSTIN, Nov. 26. -- (INS) -- The life of a football player is a hard one, the University of Texas Longhorns agreed today as they sat down to their Thanksgiving dinner. Thinking of turkey and all the trimmings, they found only tea, toast and honey on their bare Thanksgiving training table. Coach Jack Chevigney (Chevigny is correct -- ed.) ordered the rations cut so none of his team would be too full for the Aggies. ... [Texas beat Texas A&M 7-0 that game -- ed.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 07:15:23 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 03:15:23 -0400 Subject: Corn Dog and Nachos were invented at Texas State Fair (Houston Chronicle; Independent of London) Message-ID: What should I do? Write to this guy? It won't make a difference. ... I should have killed myself years ago. Maybe some Texas Fried Cookie Dough will do it. ... ... ... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5194018.html Oct. 6, 2007, 8:28PM SUNDAY CONVERSATION State fair: It's a great ride Errol McKoy, who grew up in the North Texas town of Quanah, attended his first State Fair of Texas as a teenager. He became its president in 1988 after a career as a theme park executive. The 65-year-old McKoy is presiding over his 20th fair, a tenure so long he said some people call him the "cars, cows, corndogs and culture man." The fair runs through Oct. 21 at Dallas' Fair Park. McKoy stepped off the midway for a few minutes to answer questions from the Houston Chronicle's Dallas Bureau Chief Thomas Korosec. (...) Q: What's with all the fried food? All seven of your Big Tex Choice Awards winners and honorable mentions this year came straight from the fryer. The winner, we see, was Texas Fried Cookie Dough, followed by Deep Fried Latte. A: If you look back over time, the corn dog was invented here. Nachos were invented here. We have always had new foods, and over the last 10 years we have encouraged the idea of generating new fried food items. Q: So you've taken the corn dog and worked from there? A: We want to go beyond the corn dog and nachos. We've had a number of items invented now, and we're going to sit back and see which ones have staying power. Q: Which ones would you bet on? A: We think fried Coke, as crazy as it seems, will have a lot of staying power just because of the name. The guy who invented that one, Abel Gonzalez, has won our contest three years in a row. First it was the fried peanut butter and jelly and banana sandwich, followed by fried Coke and fried cookie dough this year. I like the fried cookie dough. (...) thomas.korosec at chron.com ... ... ... http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article3021364.ece Hershey chief quits as Mars edges ahead By Leonard Doyle in Washington Published: 03 October 2007 The increasingly fierce competition in the US confectionery business yesterday claimed its most high-profile victim yet, as Richard Lenny, chief executive of the Hershey Company, quit in frustration at the failure of America's largest chocolate-maker to keep up with Mars. Mr Lenny, 55, who joined Hershey's in 2001 from Kraft Foods, told the board over the weekend of his plan to depart, Hershey's spokesman Kirk Saville said yesterday. "There's been some disappointing performance and there's no question the man's been under some intense pressure," said Marvin Roffman, an analyst at Roffman Miller Associates in Philadelphia, which owns Hershey's shares. Hershey's is fighting in a rapidly developing market, where the latest fad is fried Coke. At the State Fair of Texas, where the corn-dog was invented in 1941, customers have been lining up for deep-fried Coca-Cola-flavoured batter, topped off with whipped cream, cinnamon sugar and a cherry. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 11:45:15 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:45:15 -0400 Subject: Another early "Black Friday" (day after Thanksgiving) Message-ID: Several years ago Barry found a piece -- one filed from Philadelphia and published in *The New York Times* on 29 November 1975 -- that has been cited as the earliest appearance in print (so far) of "Black Friday" used in reference to the day after Thanksgiving [1]. On that same Saturday, *The Titusville [Pennsylvania] Herald* printed an Associated Press report also filed from Philadelphia [2]. Like the piece from *The Times*, it refers to the preceding day as "Black Friday." (I might add that although this second piece does dwell on shoppers' post-Thanksgiving buying sprees, neither it nor the piece from *The Times* refers to or relies on a usage of "Black Friday" holding that "black" refers to the day that merchants' ledger books go from red to black.) -- Bonnie ---------- [1] "Philadelphia police and bus drivers call it 'Black Friday' -- that day each year between Thanksgiving Day and the Army-Navy game. It is the busiest shopping and traffic day of the year in the Bicentennial City as the Christmas list is checked off and the Eastern college football season nears conclusion." [Gordon S. White Jr., "Army vs. Navy: A Dimming Splendor," Pg. 21.] ---------- [2] FOLKS ON BUYING SPREE DESPITE DOWN ECONOMY [Pg. 1] Store aisles were jammed. Escalators were nonstop people. It was the first day of the Christmas shopping season and despite the economy, folks here went on a buying spree. Tens of thousands in search of Christmas gifts left harried sales clerks in their wake on the day after Thanksgiving, the starting bell for the holiday shopping crush. "I don't intend to gift wrap IOU's," said Fred Leamnan of Philadelphia, who just this week got back his job as a plumber's helper. "Sure, money's tight, but it's Christmastime -- you just have to give gifts." It didn't matter which of the city's department stores you went in. Bus after bus unloaded shoppers who fought their way through sidewalk crowds moving at a snail's pace. "Yes, indeed, times are rough for us. That's why we're shopping down here," Elaine Hunt said as she and her three children browsed through the John Wannamaker's basement budget store. "My husband's looking for construction work but I'm working part-time, so there'll be some gifts under the tree somehow," she said. "Everyone's worried about the economy, but you can't get too uptight about money at Christmas," said Marvin Weidner, a shopper at Gimbels. "I want to enjoy myself like when I was a kid." >From frivolous to practical, virtually every department was attracting its share of shoppers. The jewelry, books and toy counters were surrounded by shoppers, and as many as 12 persons were lined up at clothing counters, waiting to make their purchases. "That's why the bus drivers and cab drivers call today 'Black Friday,'" a sales manager at Gimbels said as she watched a traffic cop trying to control a crowd of jaywalkers. "They think in terms of headaches it gives them." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 7 12:10:15 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 08:10:15 -0400 Subject: antedating "standard of living" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710061336.l96DaWa1001583@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: ads-l archive has 1902 The Standard Of Living In The United States. (News) The Times Monday, Sep 22, 1890; pg. 6; Issue 33123; col D At the last meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science...Mr. Dodge...read a paper on the standard of living in the United States, in the course of which he said it was the highest known, and it was progressive. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 7 13:42:09 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:42:09 -0400 Subject: antedating "word game" (1885) Message-ID: ads-l archive has 1899 1885 The Congregationalist, (Boston, MA) Thursday, April 23, 1885; pg. 6; Issue 17; col E [19th C US N] Our Young People A Little Blue Pitcher Mary E. Wilkins. Category: Arts & Entertainment [col. F] This and That A very pretty word-game for young people is one known as "Crambo." Somebody asks a question and, at the same time, gives a word which must be wrought into the answer in the form of a rhyme. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 14:22:43 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:22:43 -0400 Subject: "Until hell freezes over" (1832 & 1859) Message-ID: Barry, in looking for "carpetbaggers," had previously traced "'til (or till) hell freezes over" to 1868, http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908C&L=ADS-L&P=2187 Though a seemingly isolated instance pops up in early 1832, I've found that the expression begins to appear with some frequency in American publications around 1860. -- Bonnie ------------------------ [The editors of a theological magazine report:] This week we received another paper returned from the same [post] office [...] on the margin of which is written, "Stop this paper or send it to Syracuse, where [the subscriber now] lives. Baldwinsville, Onon. Co. N.Y. I shall send it back until hell freezes over, but what I will stop it. I don't want to pay postage on the d----- thing." [From "Orthodox Piety and Manners," *The Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate*, 4 February 1832; 3, 5, Pg. 38; APS Online.] ------------- Another was caught on a stolen horse, and refusing to testify as desired -- his mother urging him to reveal nothing, and saying they would not hang him till hell froze over -- was found dead. [From "Democracy and Crime in Pike County," *The Chicago Press and Tribune*, 7 March 1859, Pg. 2; ProQuest Historical.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Oct 7 15:57:26 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:57:26 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <200710070026.l96AoTv7012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wonderful! It's alive and well here in Southeastern Ohio too. At 08:26 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a >Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced >by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." > >The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the >political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: > >I'M A-WISHIN' >FOR A BETTER >COMMISSION > >There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. > >(We could do pronunciation too, of course.) > >Bethany > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 16:34:43 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:34:43 -0700 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname In-Reply-To: <200710062047.l96Ao3TB012682@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS has nothing on "Teasipper." Too local to have made much of a, er, splash? JL Barry Popik wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barry Popik Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will "teasipper" be in the next volume of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Dictionary of American Regional English, or an updated OED? What does HDAS have? ... There seems to be a lack of Texas A&M Aggie material here in Austin. I'd like to take a trip to College Station soon, but it sure would be nice to get some recognition or compensation for the stuff that I do. ... Any scholarly help or clues here? --Barry Popik ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tea_sipper_or_teasipper_tea_sip_or_teasip_university_of_texas_at_austin_stu/ ... Entry from October 06, 2007 Tea-sipper or Teasipper; Tea-sip or Teasip (University of Texas at Austin student nickname) Since at least the 1930s, the Texas A&M Aggies have called students of the University of Texas at Austin "tea-sippers" ( or "teasippers"), later "tea-sips" (or "teasips"). No one knows why. Some have speculated that "tea-sipper" is an Aggie tea-drinking interpretation of the famous "Hook 'em, Horns" hand gesture, but that hand gesture was invented by cheerleader Harley Clark in 1955—well after "tea-sipper" is first cited. Wikipedia: Glossary of Texas Aggie Terms Tea-sip A student of Texas A&M's archrival, the University of Texas at Austin. Urban Dictionary tea sipper word used by Texas A&M aggies to describe a Texas Longhorn. meant to be demeaning Why does that there tea sipper make more money than me? by Lindlof May 28, 2004 Urban Dictionary 1. tea-sip One who attends or attended the University of Texas (t.u.) in Austin, Texas. The term tea-sip (also spelled teasip, t-sip, or t sip) was started by students of Texas A&M University (aka. Aggies) in the early 1900's to belittle the well-to-do students of t.u. The University of Texas was traditionally the "rich" school which pumped out doctors, lawyers and the like. A&M was the blue collar school which traditionally taught Agriculture and Mechanics (engineering). The Aggies play the teasips on Thanksgiving day. I'm sick of all those hippy teasips in Austin. by Henry Hill Feb 8, 2005 2. tea-sip one who attends U.T. My friend Mitch is a tea-sip. by Aggie class '08 Nov 3, 2004 (Oxford English Dictionary) tea, n. (...) Objective and obj. gen., as...tea--sipper,... 1756 HANWAY Ess. Tea viii. 245 Were they the sons of *tea-sippers, who won the fields of Cressy and Agincourt? 25 November 1937, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 6, col. 1: THE FOLLOWING excerpts from a letter sent by Junie Schuler, Aggies freshman, gives an idea about the spirit at Aggieland: "The Aggies have been preparing for this day since the football season started, and we don't mean to let the tea sippers from Texas U. spoil our victory." 12 February 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Strolling the Campus" with Sam Weiner, pg. 13, col. 1: AGGIE LAMBAST TEXAS " TEA-SIPPERS." With the ROTC struggle pouring oil on the flames, the perennial rivalry between the Longhorns and Aggies flared into a white hot fire during the week, building up the basketball game tonight between the teams in a rough climax. The heated rivalry flared anew recently during an editorial battle between the Daily Texan campus newspaper ,and the Battalion, the Aggies' sheet. As usual, the students at Texas have been dubbed "tea-sippers" by the droll Aggies, and to carry outthe theme the Battalion editors have arranged for tea to be served to Texas students attending the game at College Station tonight. "It really hurts us," the Aggies said, " to think that the tea-sippers would have to go without their beverage while they're over here in the wilderness, so we got it arranged forthem to have their tea served during the game. The "tea-sippers" and the "tin-soldiers"—as the Texas students call the Aggies—struck up a bargain for tonight. If Texas wins, the Daily Texan writers, Pat Daniels, editor, and Clarence LaReche, sports editor, will write stories of the game for both the Daily Texan and the Battalion. If the Aggies win, however, the Battalion editors will condescend to cover the game for the "tea-sippers," giving it that peculiar Aggie twist which proves so annoying to the Texas boys, who dislike being called "tea-sippers." 2 November 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 8, col. 1: "If we had a one-horse team like Texas U., Conatser would shine more than soph Jack Crain ever could. We are looking forward to seeing the tea sippers tangle over here on Thanksgiving." 5 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News, "Inside Stuff" by Tommy Griffin, pg. 16, col. 1: The Ags, of course, call the Longhorns a bunch of tea-sippers. 6 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News pg. 16, "Inside Stuff" (the mail sack) by Tommy Griffin, col. 1: "College Station." "Mr. Thomas 'Tea-sipper' Griffin:" (...) "In the first place, whether we win or lose every game we play, we still think that we have the best team in the nation and will not go (Col. 2—ed.) running to hide in a corner like a bunch of yellow-bellied tea-sippers." (...) "W. G. (Billy) Williamson, Jr." "P. S. I'd rather be an Aggie Freshman the rest of my life than a Tea-sipping Senior." 1 January 1943, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 3, pg. 11: The differences between "share-croppers" and "tea-sippers" are something that loyal exes of both schools always remember. Time magazine Trouble in Texas Monday, May. 03, 1943 (...) Many Texans find the Austin students effete: to the Aggies (Texas A. & M. College), for example, many strapping Austin characters are "tea-sippers." 1 December 1946, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Forty Acres' Forecast" by Sara Jane Potts, section 5, pg. 7: AUSTIN.—If Yankees coming to Texas have been wondering where all those cowboys were, they would have found them marching in Memorial Stadium, where the Texas Teasippers knocked out the Texas Aggies by a comfortable count of 24 to 7 in the traditional Turkey Day game. 23 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 2: He did get in on a chorus of "Let's get Texas; let's get those teasippers." 30 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 8: Bill Sullivan, the kicker-off, helped start the rally with a thundering: "We got those teasippers." 28 January 1951, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Steers, Aggies Set Grid Date," part 2, pg. 1: AUSTIN, Texas, Jan. 27 (AP).—The Aggies and the Teasippers finally got together on something Saturday, but it took considerable bickering to do it. 5 March 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 6: Two ex-Aggies wired Sen. William T. Moore, Bryan, that he was a tea sipper, the derogatory term Aggies fling at University of Texas students. 7 August 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News part 1, pg. 14: "Wouldn't this be a good spot for a UT teasipper to drop a grenade!" 30 November 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Ags Give Credit to Bryant," part 1, pg. 26: The seniors on the Aggie ball club were rounded up into a corner of the room for pictures. Suddenly, they began rattling the rafters with the chant, "Poo-o-o-r teasips." 13 July 1964, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Please Pass The Tea" by Roy Edwards, section 2, pg. 2: Although he played three years of varsity football at A&M, including the 1941 championship team that lost to Texas, and coached at Aggieland eight years under three head coaches, Zapalac has learned to talk teasipper already. 15 November 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Why Are Longhorns Styled "Tea-Sippers'?" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: SHE WROTE: "I'm not chauvanistic about University of Texas football, although I took my bachelor's degree at Texas. However, since the Longhorns started losing football games, I've noticed that more and more people refer to University of Texas students as 'tea-sippers'. This term is particularly popular with the Texas Aggies. I'm a little annoyed over this and I wonder who was the mischievous person who put the nickname of tea-sippers on Texas students? Please don't use my name since I have a brother-in-law who is a TCU ex and who has a rather heavy-handed sense of humor." WELL, AT THE lady's command, I did some rather unsuccessful research on the "tea-sippers" nickname for University of Texas scholars. I'd heard a legend that it all began when the great coach, Dana Xenophon Bible, started his gridiron renaissance at Texas in the late 1930's and, according to the yarn, used to serve hot tea and cookies at athletic gatherings. Mr. Bible, in his deep echoing bass voice, denied this emphatically. "I never held any teas," he said. Another patriarch of University of Texas sports, Theo Blemont, Longhorn athletic director from 1913 to 1929, also could give me no clue. MY RESEARCH DID show that late in the 19th century, in the Texas Panhandle "teasipper" was a popular term of good-natured scorn for the dandified Britishers who owned several of the larger ranches, such as Lord Tweedmouth and the Earl of Aberdeen of the Rocking Chaire Ranche near Wellington, Texas. This was, of course, long before any chuck wagon cook even dreamed of serving ice tea. And the rough Panhandle cowboys, much given to coffee drinking, were mystified by the British ranchers' ritualistic tea sipping. One British proprietor of a Panhandle ranch objected, at first, to the democratic custom of the owners eating as the same table with the "cow servants", as he called the hands. Cape Willingham, a famous cowboy who was later the first sheriff of Tascoa, commented on this: "Can you imagine that tea-sipper thinks I ain't good enough to eat with him! And me a boy that can ride anything that grows hair!" 26 December 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 24: MOST AGGIES considered them a form of envy, a point of pride. They fought back with barbed wit aimed at "Sips" (short of T-Sip, or Tea-sipper, any person unfortunate enough to enroll at the University of Texas) and Baptists, or Deacons, from Baylor University. 27 April 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section B, pg. 2: "They're both tea-sips. It's going to be an orange wedding." 27 May 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: "He," remarked the cadet of the Person up there, "must have been a tea-sip." 27 October 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section D, pg. 2: As a "Tea-Sip," wife of one, mother of two and mother-in-law of one and, as a subscriber to both the Daily Texan and the Austin American, I feel that I am far better qualified to evaluate the university than Mr. Fessi after one trip to one campus dormitory. 21 February 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Bully Gilstrap Theory on 'Tea-Sipper' Label" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 21: WHY ARE University of Texas at Austin students and even former UT students, scoffingly called "tea-sippers". Questions about this tea-sipper label have come to my desk in a sudden covey of letters, an occurrence I blame on the fact that the dog star is not presently in ascendency. On his rancho near Rosebud, Texas, a real authority on the University of Texas' past, the Hon. Bully Gilstrip, proper his bare feet up on a coffee table (Bully goes bare-footed a lot except during sticker season) and gave me this answer: "The tea-sipper insult is involved with out 'hook 'em horns!' signal, with which followers of the university's athletic teams have been gesturing their allegiance for several decades." BULLY GILSTRAP raised a massive paw in the "hook 'em horns" finger positions, with the middle fingers folded and the fore finger and little finger erect. Mr. Gilstrap declared that this gesture by Texas U. aficionados and aficionadas called up to Texas Aggie minds the act of daintily holding a tea cup with the little finger at high port. "And that's why Aggies, generations ago, started calling us Texas U. folks tea-sippers," said Bully, who spent a quarter of a century as a star athlete and then a coach who became a kind of "institution" at the University of Texas. "BULLY'S WRONG" chorused Mike Quinn, Paul Crume and WIlbur Evans, all stout Orangemen although not necessarily to obnoxious degrees. "That 'hook 'em horns' salute was first innovated by a University of Texas cheer-leader named Harley Clark, now an Austin lawyer, late in the 1950's," said Mr. Quinn. "Bully says they were making the hook 'em salute when he played on an unbeaten Texas football team 51 years ago," I said in rebuttal. "And one story is that the tea-sipper tag was hung on the university in the late 1930's or early 1940's when Dana X. Bible was head football coach and he was said to serve tea and cookies to his athletes as a light meal before games," said Mr. Crume. DANA XENOPHON Bible, the 82-year-old head coach emeritus of the University of Texas who was also a successful head football coach at LSU, Texas A&M, and the University of Nebraska, was asked about this. "Ridiculous," he said. "I never held any teas for football players." Mr. Bible was coach at Texas A&M from 1917 until he went to Nebraska in 1928. And he declared: "As I recall University of Texas people were being called tea-sippers at the time I had my great unbeaten, untied, and unscored on football team at A&M in 1917." (The same team, which didn't operate in 1918 because the coach and most of the players had gone to war, lost its only game 3-7 in the 1920 season, and these were the only points scored on the team during 3 seasons.) WILBUR EVANS, a University of Texas product who is doing a book on A&M, said that he seemed to recall a reference to "tea-sippers" in an ancient version of the Texas Aggie War Song. The lusty lyrics for The War Song were written in the trenches of France in 1918 by an Aggie, James V. (Pinky) Wilson, and begin "Hulla-balloo, hulla-ballo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." and have that refrain "Goodye to Texas Universi-tee, etc." Mr. Evans thinks the War Song may have once had lyrics which went something like this: "T is for Texas U.? Hell no! T is for tea-sippers: Hulla-ballo, hulla-baloo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." MR. CRUME said that the 2 uplifted fingers resemble snails, at least with his hand, and signify the slowness of Longhorn running backs. 4 September 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: Many University of Texas graduates have plates saying "HOOK EM" or some other variant. The ones that can't get "Hook 'Em" get a variant of "TEA SIP," which describes us old Texas boys who never take strong drink. Google Books The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas Music and Lyrics by Carol Hall Book by Larry l. King and Peter Masterson Based on a story by Larry L. King New York, NY: Samuel French, Inc. 1983 Pg. 56: AGGIE I. YeeeeHaw! Didn't them Teasippers step in a deep pile of Aggie Shit! College Football Forum October 05, 2006 9:17 AM (...) "tea sip" - Student of University of Texas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 16:59:13 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that far. http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 Scot PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 17:38:25 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:38:25 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: There is an earlier(1697) cite http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1 which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a dog!" Just saying. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scot LaFaive" To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM Subject: Fight like a man I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that far. http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 Scot PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 17:59:21 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:59:21 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Fucking tarbaby. Mr. Brydges actually lived some hundred years AFTER the Google hit. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Fight like a man > There is an earlier(1697) cite > http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1 > which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a > dog!" > > Just saying. > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scot LaFaive" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM > Subject: Fight like a man > > > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work > on > it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was > just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that > far. > http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 > > Scot > PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me > _________________________________________________________________ > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 17:58:16 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:58:16 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710071738.l97ArFmE027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very interesting, though I'm leery of those Google hits that don't let you see the title page or copyright info. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:38:25 -0400> From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Fight like a man> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > There is an earlier(1697) cite> http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1> which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a> dog!"> > Just saying.> > Sam Clements> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Scot LaFaive" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM> Subject: Fight like a man> > > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on> it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was> just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that> far.> http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22> > Scot> PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me> _________________________________________________________________> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 18:01:48 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:01:48 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710071759.l97ArFnm027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Oh :) Those bastards. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:59:21 -0400> From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Fight like a man> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Fucking tarbaby.> > Mr. Brydges actually lived some hundred years AFTER the Google hit.> > Sam Clements> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:38 PM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> > > > There is an earlier(1697) cite> > http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1> > which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a> > dog!"> >> > Just saying.> >> > Sam Clements> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: "Scot LaFaive" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM> > Subject: Fight like a man> >> >> > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work> > on> > it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was> > just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that> > far.> > http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22> >> > Scot> > PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me> > _________________________________________________________________> > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 18:27:17 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:27:17 -0700 Subject: paralepsis In-Reply-To: <200710070205.l96AkKOH003646@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, "paralepsis" is the form that I'd have used. I presume, since I can't remember clearly, that my high-school Latin teacher used it in discussing Cicero. (Tedious then, highly nostalgiafied now.) He was from Maine and not a substituter of / I / for / E /. Recommended reading for high-school Classicists: poem, "The School Boy Reads His Iliad," by David Morton (1921) (though it was not "tops" that were on our minds). JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: paralepsis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In another forum, I just used the word "paralepsize" as a nonce coinage in the sense 'to suggest something by saying you won't mention it', from "paralepsis". Then I looked for it in OED Online and got There are no results. The nearest alphabetical match-point is displayed in the side-frame. and that was "paralerema, n". "What?", I thought, "don't they have 'paralepsis'?!" And the answer is, not exactly: it is listed only as an irregular form of "paralipsis", in centuries "15 19-". I was surprised, having known the word for years, but only in the "e" spelling. Googits are about 2-1 for the "i" spelling: "about 21,300 for paralipsis" "about 10,300 for paralepsis" m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 7 20:54:52 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:54:52 -0500 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" Message-ID: Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Gerald Cohen South-Central Missouri ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:34:34 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:34:34 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072055.l97Ask2x027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Suggested by "hotter [or harder] than the hobs of hell"? JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Gerald Cohen South-Central Missouri ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Oct 7 21:34:31 2007 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 17:34:31 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE58088@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > The economist (?) noted for describing life as "nasty, brutish, and short"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes) -- ======================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:39:53 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:39:53 -0700 Subject: Unrecorded cuss formation Message-ID: A friend reports that her mother, from Harlan, Ky., never ever uses foul language. The exception was when she was trying to get her sewing machine to operate properly during the 1950s. On those occasions she could be heard to mutter, frequently, "Shit to the devil!" JL --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 21:40:50 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:40:50 -0500 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072055.l97ArFuE027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: After searching Google, Google Groups, and Google Books, I don't find any uses of this expression in any inflected form. Sorry. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:54:52 -0500> From: gcohen at UMR.EDU> Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes"> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes"> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it.> > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is?> > Gerald Cohen> South-Central Missouri> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:55:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:55:59 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072134.l97Ask3f027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Nasty,_poor_, brutish, and short." Said by someone to be a desciption of Alexander Pope. JL Alice Faber wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Alice Faber Organization: Haskins Laboratories Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > The economist (?) noted for describing life as "nasty, brutish, and short"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes) -- ======================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 7 22:02:46 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:02:46 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE58088@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: >Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said >that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = >simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she >said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady >answered that her mother had often used it. > >I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't >appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with >it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Likely it's the same as the "hob" in "play hob", "raise hob". I suppose this "hob" _may_ be originally a name like "Bob", but for practical purposes it's just something beginning with an "h", used as a euphemism for "hell". Here maybe the unfamiliar "hob" has been reinterpreted as "Hobbes" (the surname, but not necessarily with any particular person alluded to), or maybe the word is just "hobs", arbitrarily pluralized or pluralized to make "hobs" = "hobgoblins" or something like that ... or maybe the old lady actually said "hob"? Just my casual notions. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1055 - Release Date: 10/7/2007 10:24 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 22:34:58 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:34:58 -0700 Subject: Semantic drift: "khaki" In-Reply-To: <200709170356.l8GAkHGH016800@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For anyone not yet bored silly by this topic: As early as 1919, popular novelist Rex Beach refers to the World War I army uniform indiscriminately as "khaki" and "olive drab" on the same page: 1919 Rex Beach _Too Fat to Fight_ (N.Y.: Harper's) 27 [ref. to 1918]: Every time I see a doughboy I want to stand at attention and throw out my chest....There's something sacred about that olive drab. It's like your mother's wedding-dress, only holier, and decenter, if possible....Those swinging arms, those rifles aslant, those leggings flashing, and that sea, of khaki rising, falling - Gee! There's something about it. JL Amy West wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Amy West Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My brother, who trained me to spit-shine, used to starch his fatigues as a youngster. They were olive drab or camouflage. I think the only khaki-coloring I saw in his uniforms were in his desert camies. We never called his uniforms anything but "fatigues", less frequently BDUs (basic duty uniform?). Again, this is late 1970s. I have heard khakis refer to the style of pants also known as chinos: for example, at one point at the museum job we were told to wear khakis and a golf shirt as a uniform. ---Amy (Again, not a lot of help) West >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:14:22 -0700 >From: Dave Wilton >Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki" > >IIRC, the US Army abandoned its tropical/summer khaki uniforms in the early >1980s, leaving only the olive-drab uniform. I would suspect that if the >meaning shifted it would be after this date, at least in American usage. > >During the 60s and 70s there was a true US Army khaki uniform, which would >have been worn in tropical Vietnam. Perhaps Heinemann is referring to the >true khaki uniform and this is being misinterpreted. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 22:36:05 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:36:05 -0400 Subject: Mystery of "Mr. Bojangles" Message-ID: "Mr. Bojangles" is 1968 song written by Jerry Jeff Walker of Austin. It is not about Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, but surely was influenced by Robinson. ... Are there any cites of "bojangles" and "bejangled" pre-1935? Does any cite in ProQuest's Black Newspaper Collection explain "bojangles"? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mr_bojangles_person_and_song_title/ ... Entry from October 07, 2007 Mr. Bojangles (person and song title) "Mr. Bojangles" is a 1968 song title by Jerry Jeff Walker (a popular performer on the Austin music scene, especially in the 1970s). The song describes a dancer, known throughout the South, down on his luck in a New Orleans jail. Walker said that the character was based on Babe Stovall, a New Orleans guitar player and singer. Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949) was a famous Harlem dancer; although the song "Mr. Bojangles" is not based on Robinson's life, it was Robinson who made the name "Bojangles" famous. In 1977, the Bojangles chain of chicken and biscuits restaurants was founded. The origin of "Bojangles" is uncertain. The term "jingle-jangle" has long been in use, as has the word "jangle" (noise, ringing, chatter). Harriet Beecher Stowe used the word "bejangled" in 1867. Wikipedia: Mr. Bojangles (song) "Mr. Bojangles" is a popular song, written and initially recorded by Jerry Jeff Walker in 1968 and covered since by many other artists. The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band took the song to #9 on the Billboard pop chart in 1971. It was about an obscure alcoholic but talented tap dancing drifter (not the famous stage and movie dancer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, as sometimes assumed). Bojangles is thought to have been a folk character who entertained informally in the south of the US and California, and some say he might have been one of the most gifted natural dancers ever. His actual name is not recorded. Authentic reports of him exist from the 1920s through about 1965. According to the lyrics by Jerry Jeff Walker, he met Bojangles in a prison cell in New Orleans (the first precinct jail to be exact). The two began to converse about life. Bojangles began to dance as Walker admired his skill. Walker has said that the character was based on Babe Stovall, a guitar player and singer who worked in New Orleans in the late sixties. He played a National Dobro steel body guitar, with, as he used to say "...just a finger and a thumb… I don't read a note of music..." Wikipedia: Jerry Jeff Walker Jerry Jeff Walker (born March 16, 1942) is a country music singer. Walker was born Ronald Clyde Crosby in Oneonta, New York. (...) Trivia Some have called Jerry Jeff the Jimmy Buffett of Texas. Oddly enough, it was Jerry Jeff who first drove Jimmy Buffett to Key West (from New Orleans, Louisiana in a Packard). Jerry Jeff has an annual birthday celebration bash in Austin, Texas. This party has become an enormous event in Texas and brings some of the biggest names in country music out for a night of picking and swapping stories under the Austin skyline. Jimmy Buffett attended the 2004 Birthday bash. Wikipedia: Bill Robinson Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (May 25, 1878 – November 25, 1949) was a pioneer and pre-eminent African-American tap dance performer. (...) Toward the end of the vaudeville era a white impresario, Lew Leslie, produced Blackbirds of 1928, a black revue for white audiences featuring Robinson and other black stars. From then on his public role was that of a dapper, smiling, plaid-suited ambassador to the white world, maintaining a tenuous connection with the black show-business circles through his continuing patronage of the Hoofer's Club, an entertainer's haven in Harlem. Consequently, blacks and whites developed differing opinions of him. To whites, for example, his nickname "Bojangles" meant happy-go-lucky, while the black variety artist Tom Flatcher claimed it was slang for "squabbler." Mr. Bojangles (lyrics) - Nitty Gritty Dirt Band I knew a man Bojangles and he danced for you in worn out shoes With silver hair, a ragged shirt and baggy pants, the old soft shoe He jumped so high, he jumped so high, Then he lightly touched down I met him in a cell in New Orleans, I was - down and out He looked at me to be the eyes of age as he spoke right out He talked of life, he talked of life, he laughed, slapped his leg a step Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles Mr. Bojangles, dance! ... Bojangles' Famous Chicken 'n Biscuits History >From a dream . . . Bojangles' began in 1977 as the dream of operators Jack Fulk and Richard Thomas. They saw an opportunity to develop a quick service restaurant chain based on three attributes: A distinctive, spicy flavor profile Wholesome, high-quality made-from-scratch products A fun, festive restaurant design with fast, friendly service. The core menu then was the same as it is today—spicy, Cajun style chicken served with fresh buttermilk biscuits, and one-of-a-kind fixin's, like Dirty Rice™ or Cajun Pintos™. The light, buttery made-from-scratch biscuits are also the basis for the best breakfast in the industry. Biscuit sandwiches filled with mouth-watering items like spicy chicken filets, seasoned sausage or steak, country ham, eggs and cheese are served hot and fresh all day, every day. Sweet biscuits such as Cinnamon Biscuits and BoBerry Biscuits (r) are all-day favorites as well. (Oxford English Dictionary) jangle, n. 1. Idle talk, chatter, jabber; an idle word. Obs. 2. Contention, altercation, bickering. 3. Discordant sound, ring, or clang. 4. Confused and noisy talk; the mingled din of voices. (A kind of blending of senses 1 and 3.) Google Books Religious Poems by Harriet Beecher Stowe Boston, MA: Ticknor and Fields 1867 Pg. 14 ("Knocking, Ever Knocking"): Though forsaken and betangled, Ivy-gnarled and weed-bejangled,... 9 August 1928, Ironwood (MI) Daily Globe, "'Creole Follies Co.' At the Ironwood Tonight," pg. 4, col. 4: Following in the footsteps of the world's renowned Plantation Days and Shuffle Along shows, Creole Follies Company will hold forth at the Ironwood Theatre, for 2 days,starting tonight. This company of colored entertainers consists of some of the most talented performers known in the theatrical world. (...) One of the oustanding hits of the Creole Follies is the Bojangles Slide, a dance step introduced by Bill Robinson, internationally known as a headlined vaudeville artist and anyone who has seen Bill will readily see that it is his style of entertainment with which he has endured himself to the hearts of the American Theatre going public.—Advt. 27 November 1934, La Crosse (WI) Tribune and Leader-Press, pg. 3, col. 4: Bill Robinson is the only colored person ever to be profiled in two parts in the New Yorker. And now a publisher is angling for the astute Gene Fowler to write the biography of "Bojangles." 27 June 1935, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 1, pg. 10: DID YOU KNOW Bill Robinson's nickname is Bojangles. The Negro tap dance king began his career at 5 by earning nickels and dimes by dancing in beer gardens. The public schools of his home town found him a deportment problem. As a result his formal schooling ended when he was 6 years old. His first real dancing job brought him $5 a week and board. Some years later he was making $2.00 a week as a vaudeville headliner. He has never taken a dance lesson. 13 September 1935, Helena (MT) Independent, pg. 4, col. 6: "My nerves are distraught and bejangled while I'm in this manner employed; four grocers were horribly mangled, their shoes and their hats were destroyed." Internet Movie Database Soundtracks for Swing Time (1936) "Bojangles of Harlem" Written by Jerome Kern, Hal Borne, Dorothy Fields Song and dance performed by Fred Astaire, chorus (Trademark) Word Mark BILL ROBINSON'S BOJANGLES Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 033. US 047. G & S: WINES. FIRST USE: 19500406. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19500406 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71605320 Filing Date October 23, 1950 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0553918 Registration Date January 22, 1952 Owner (REGISTRANT) MONARCH WINE COMPANY OF GEORGIA CORPORATION GEORGIA SO. ATLANTA STATION SAWTELL AVE. ATLANTA GEORGIA Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19720122 Other Data THE INDIVIDUAL WHOSE NAME IS USED AS A PART AND PARCEL OF THE TRADE-MARK HEREIN IS A DECEASED THEATRICAL CELEBRITY. Live/Dead Indicator DEAD (Trademark) Word Mark BOJANGLES' FRIED CHICKEN Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19770501. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19770501 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 73163290 Filing Date March 23, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1124591 Registration Date August 28, 1979 Owner (REGISTRANT) BOJANGLES' OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION NORTH CAROLINA P. O. BOX 906 WILKESBORO NORTH CAROLINA 28697 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Disclaimer THE DESCRIPTIVE WORDS "FRIED CHICKEN" ARE DISCLAIMED APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date December 15, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 22:41:38 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:38 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072202.l97ArFwc027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm with Doug in this. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said >that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = >simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she >said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady >answered that her mother had often used it. > >I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't >appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with >it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Likely it's the same as the "hob" in "play hob", "raise hob". I suppose this "hob" _may_ be originally a name like "Bob", but for practical purposes it's just something beginning with an "h", used as a euphemism for "hell". Here maybe the unfamiliar "hob" has been reinterpreted as "Hobbes" (the surname, but not necessarily with any particular person alluded to), or maybe the word is just "hobs", arbitrarily pluralized or pluralized to make "hobs" = "hobgoblins" or something like that ... or maybe the old lady actually said "hob"? Just my casual notions. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1055 - Release Date: 10/7/2007 10:24 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 00:49:12 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:49:12 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072134.l97ArFvY027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm with you, Jon. That's my WAG, too. -Wilson On 10/7/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Suggested by "hotter [or harder] than the hobs of hell"? > > JL > > "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > > Gerald Cohen > South-Central Missouri > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 8 01:15:12 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:15:12 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <478783.22429.qm@web32012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue > of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the > magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. i've been to two downtown palo alto stores with tons of magazines, but neither carries Good. and the piece doesn't seem to be on the on- line site (which has lots of stuff). still working on getting access to the magazine. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 01:54:44 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:54:44 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps not a desired instance? ("men", not "a man") Pennsylvania Gazette, 27 October 1757, p. 3, col. 1 [Early American Newspapers]. and the Indians finding their Endeavors to force the Door were in vain, called to the young Fellows in English, to come out and fight like Men, and not stay in the House to be murdered. So the origin is from the Iroquois? :-) Or you can have "fight like lions" from 1736, "fight like devils" from 1745, fight like Britons from 1758, ... . Joel At 10/7/2007 12:59 PM, Scot LaFAive wrote: >I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done >work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is >right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting >that it could go back that far. >http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 > >Scot >PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me >_________________________________________________________________ >Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! >http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 03:23:55 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:23:55 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <200710070026.l96AoTv5012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Shouldn't that be a-prefixing _a-dying_ out? :-) -Wilson On 10/6/07, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a > Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced > by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." > > The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the > political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: > > I'M A-WISHIN' > FOR A BETTER > COMMISSION > > There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. > > (We could do pronunciation too, of course.) > > Bethany > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 04:03:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:03:31 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710061852.l96AoTmr012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An article in NewsTime claims that the BrE spelling, "Burma" [b^:m@] is based upon Burmese _Ba:ma_ [b*:m@], itself based upon the standard BrE transliteration of Sanskrit-based alphabets. The AmE r-ful pronunciation is based upon the BrE spelling. -Wilson On 10/6/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ah, Wellman! Who Fears the Devil is one of my all-time favorite books. IMHO, > though, he should've stuck to his shorts, so to speak; I've read his novels > once, and that's about that. > > m a m > > On 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > > and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > > Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Oct 8 04:59:37 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:59:37 EDT Subject: Does anyone know of this type of German dictionary? Message-ID: I noticed no one was answering the question, so I sent it to our former German exchange students. (They are former exchange students; not former Germans!) Following my sig line is the one reply I got. Rosemarie I saw an ad that said '24-Hour Banking,' but I don't have that much time. -- Steven Wright _http://deu.proz.com/index.php3?sp=kog_ (http://deu.proz.com/index.php3?sp=kog) ... Maybe that helps. But just think about it…most of the computer termina is English anyway…so no need for a translation???? At the page you can choose b/w computer(allgemein) – general, computer hardware, computer software, comuter – system and networks. Maybe it helps….i also just put it in google but it is a german site…k…have fun! XXOO Sascha ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Oct 8 11:23:50 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:23:50 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <82745f630710072023p4fb9cb90i16aae089074835b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Point, Wilson! Bethany On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Wilson Gray wrote: > Shouldn't that be > > a-prefixing _a-dying_ out? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 15:23:25 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:23:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) Message-ID: From a colleague: >_http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html?_r=1&oref=slogi >n_ >(http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) > > >October 7, 2007 >Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. >By CHARLES McGRATH > >THE Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the scaled-down, two-volume version >of the mammoth 20-volume O.E.D., just got a >little shorter. With the dispatch >of a waiter flicking away flyspecks, the editor, Angus Stevenson, eliminated >some 16,000 hyphens from the sixth edition, >published last month. “People are >not confident about using hyphens anymore,” he >said. “They’re not really >sure what they’re for.” > >[SEE URL FOR COMPLETE ARTICLE..... rr]] Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 23:38:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:38:20 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710080155.l981tCpx013628@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/7/2007 09:54 PM, Iwrote: >Or you can have "fight like lions" from 1736, "fight like devils" >from 1745, fight like Britons from 1758, ... . Considering the article in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine, perhaps these should be replaced by "fight like red squirrels"? The article says "But over time the red squirrel became beloved in Britain. It supplanted the realm's old icon, the lion, as the symbol of a gentler, more evolved nation" (p. 68, col. 2). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Oct 9 10:27:30 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 06:27:30 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710081523.l98Al2P0032325@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: >People are >>not confident about using hyphens anymore >From the Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary (c. 1951), the long usage note at _hyphen_ quotes John Benbow (author of _Manuscript and Proof_, the style book of OUP-NY): "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 9 15:53:46 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:53:46 -0400 Subject: riflerized Message-ID: Does anyone have any idea what is meant here by "riflerized"? I assume it's a transcription error but I can't figure out what it's supposed to be. SCHWEITZER: Greta, I think that you know that a court has to weigh all the evidence, and it just depends on how much weight he's going to put on this gentleman's declaration. I would argue that, you know, it is remote and the court shouldn't consider it greatly, but it has to consider the evidence. This court has to consider all the evidence presented and make some determination. So it's not irrelevant. VAN SUSTEREN: I would — you know what? I would think it's almost silly because he didn't even come into court. Now, no one asked him to come into court, but he basically signed a piece of paper, Gloria filed it, and... [...] SCHWEITZER: Let me explain that to you. In California, we have what's called "riflerized decisions," or "regularized declarations." The court can make rulings based on declarations during these pendente lite hearings. Other than a trial... Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From oupr0026 at HERALD.OX.AC.UK Tue Oct 9 16:17:39 2007 From: oupr0026 at HERALD.OX.AC.UK (Alex Steer) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:17:39 +0100 Subject: riflerized Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Grant Barrett wrote: > Does anyone have any idea what is meant here by "riflerized"? I > assume it's a transcription error but I can't figure out what it's > supposed to be. Various quick searches for rifleri[sz]* have turned up nothing further. My best guess would be a mishearing (a bit of a long shot to mishear 'g'<-->'f', but audio 'noise' could be a factor) for 'regularized'. That would make sense in context, as: 'In California, we have what's called "regularized decisions," or "regularized declarations." The court can make rulings based on declarations during these pendente lite hearings.' In which 'regularized' is the common term, and 'declaration' and 'decision' vary. This also seems to fit the contextual clue of a declaration that becomes a ruling (which regularized = 'made into a ruling'). Alex ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 9 17:54:45 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:54:45 -0400 Subject: Heard on the Judges Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish white woman: "He was talkin' on the telephone and he was _doin'_ this _number_: "Listen to this! Listen to this!" I guess that "do ... number," as opposed to a simple "VP ..." - e.g., she didn't say, "... he was saying ..." or whatever - is not peculiar to black speech. The woman didn't mention where she was from, though she did mention having been to North Carolina. FWIW, her speech was r-ful and [ei] tended toward [^i] or [ai]. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Tue Oct 9 19:02:28 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710091027.l994Nse4017495@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. L. Urdang Old Lyme Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: Re: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- American Dialect Society writes: >People are >>not confident about using hyphens anymore >From the Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary (c. 1951), the long usage note at _hyphen_ quotes John Benbow (author of _Manuscript and Proof_, the style book of OUP-NY): "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 9 19:58:48 2007 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:58:48 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <200710080115.l97AskAp027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Now it's online: http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Stimuli/mark_peters_on_the_colbert_suffix "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: The Colbert suffix ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue > of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the > magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. i've been to two downtown palo alto stores with tons of magazines, but neither carries Good. and the piece doesn't seem to be on the on- line site (which has lots of stuff). still working on getting access to the magazine. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 9 21:49:02 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:49:02 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <785435.44042.qm@web32011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:58 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Now it's online: > > http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Stimuli/ > mark_peters_on_the_colbert_suffix cool. as mark knows, i drove that hard mile and a half to menlo park to get a copy of the magazine at the wonderful Kepler's (not long ago saved from closire). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 10 10:07:53 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:07:53 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 Message-ID: "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 11:34:19 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:34:19 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <20071010060753.pm6tl1xp7oosocsc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, Congratulations on this outstanding discovery, which certainly is Murphy's-Law-ish. Also, your many other antedatings posted recently have been absolutely first-rate. Can I ask out of curiosity, which database yielded this 1877-8 citation? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:07 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 10 12:06:06 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:06:06 -0400 Subject: AP story on "wide stance" Message-ID: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3710787 ...with several quotes from Grant Barrett about WOTY candidates "wide stance" and "toe-tapper". --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 10 12:40:09 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:40:09 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EDE5@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Google Books. The first view of the result gives, wrongly, 1935. The next screen gives a "snippet" and two different dates. The quotation and citation below are from the original paper publication. SG Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > Stephen, > > Congratulations on this outstanding discovery, which certainly is > Murphy's-Law-ish. Also, your many other antedatings posted recently > have been absolutely first-rate. Can I ask out of curiosity, which > database yielded this 1877-8 citation? > > Fred Shapiro > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:07 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 > > "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong > sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the > safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too > many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and > occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of > requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to > indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can > hardly be > laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely > neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine > must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." > > In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the > Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, > here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil > Engineers, Vol. > LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 10 13:42:48 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:42:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710100402.l9A1EvLk012156@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Laurence Urdang > In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have > passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced > in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. (And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not that.) I'll have to pay attention to my own usage when it comes up again, and report back sometime. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 10 13:59:42 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:59:42 -0500 Subject: docent Message-ID: >From an Associated Press article, available on-line at http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 0071006124409990001 Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing year-round on the first Saturday of the month. Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents so dates can be added. "Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have been published in 1972. What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke College is dated 1838. You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The journal was in Norwegian. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore and make the promised purchase. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 10 14:31:15 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:31:15 -0400 Subject: docent In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52C97A615@XMBIL101.northgrum. com> Message-ID: The OED(2) definition sure needs an updating. E.g,, museum docents. Joel At 10/10/2007 09:59 AM, James Landau wrote: > From an Associated Press article, available on-line at >http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 >0071006124409990001 > >Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public >By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP > >The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army >Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will >begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing >year-round on the first Saturday of the month. > >Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at >least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents >so dates can be added. > > >"Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". > >OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" > >OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. >Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have >been published in 1972. > >What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit >number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. >Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the >issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded >in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges >put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. >Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke >College is dated 1838. > >You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The >journal was in Norwegian. > >James A. Landau >Test Engineer >Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES >^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore >in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry >Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he >was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore >and make the promised purchase. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Oct 10 14:57:27 2007 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:57:27 -0500 Subject: Fred Cassidy's centennial Message-ID: Today marks the hundredth anniversary of Fred Cassidy's birth, and we're marking the occasion with an event celebrating Fred and DARE at the Wisconsin Book Festival. Here's the resolution that the ADS Executive Council passed at January's annual meeting: A Resolution Honoring Frederic G. Cassidy Whereas: October 10, 2007 marks the centennial of the birth of Frederic G. Cassidy; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was a longtime active member of the American Dialect Society; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was the catalyst for, the director of, and the best possible booster for the Society’s official dictionary, the Dictionary of American Regional English; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was mentor to a large number of ADS members, and friend and colleague to others; Therefore: We, the members of the Executive Committee of the American Dialect Society, do hereby declare October 10, 2007 “Frederic G. Cassidy Day,” on which friends are encouraged to raise a glass of Jamaican rum in Fred’s memory and cry out with vigor, “On to Z!” ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Wed Oct 10 15:16:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:16:12 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <200710101136.l9AAkrbx003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ish, smish. This provides a wonderful Colbert extension: KISSINESS, as in Keep It Simple, Stupid. (the other) doug Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:02:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:02:03 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710041226k64466985t4b5fec0e312cc9b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:26 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume >that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far >more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none >whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP >and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly >Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing >all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, >especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you >haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters >and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, >if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two >versions. > >FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. > >-Wilson Not too recently, I trust, given that (while Ralph is still going strong) Carter died 40 years ago, which had deleterious consequences on his crosspicking technique... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:09:20 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:09:20 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710041347r77ea9faek59d9f04d8d7fd1f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > >-Wilson Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? LH > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically >> used to represent [@:]). >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> > Wilson, >> > >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> > both). >> > >> > dInIs >> > >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > >----------------------- >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." >> > > >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> > > >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> > > >> > >-Wilson >> > > >> > > >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > >>----------------------- >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> > >> >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> > >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> > >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >-- >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > >----- >> > > -Sam'l Clemens >> > > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Dennis R. Preston >> > University Distinguished Professor >> > Department of English >> > 15C Morrill Hall >> > Michigan State University >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 >> > 517-353-4736 >> > preston at msu.edu >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:32:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <470CD6D8.8080009@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: >From: Laurence Urdang > >>In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have >>passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced >>in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. > >I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and >there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the >other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's >going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. >(And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not that.) > There are certainly syntactic differences. For me, for example: I didn't eat any more (*anymore) of the raw liver. I don't eat raw liver anymore (?any more). I wouldn't eat raw liver, any more (*anymore) than I would eat raw kidneys. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:49:22 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:49:22 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) Message-ID: As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the "-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 19:51:37 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:51:37 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710101932.l9AHwps1003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find increasingly rare. I think "positive anymore" is driving "negative any more" out of existence. Or, at least that's what it seems in Athens, which one daughter once claimed was situated "between Appalachia and the Midwest." -db On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >From: Laurence Urdang > > > >>In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have > >>passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced > >>in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. > > > >I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and > >there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the > >other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's > >going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. > >(And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not > that.) > > > There are certainly syntactic differences. For me, for example: > > I didn't eat any more (*anymore) of the raw liver. > I don't eat raw liver anymore (?any more). > I wouldn't eat raw liver, any more (*anymore) than I would eat raw > kidneys. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:53:45 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:53:45 -0400 Subject: suspend sub Message-ID: Please suspend my ads-l subscription for now. (I can't remember how to do it, Terry and Jesse!) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:56:50 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:56:50 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <20071010154922.HWW09710@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 3:49 PM -0400 10/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the >"-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or >affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say >that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than >in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? > >--Charlie Oh right, "feller". Also "holler" ('declivity'), "winder", and "tater". I see now that there's a "regional note" under "holler" in the AHD4 , but it indicates all these are indeed pronounced rhotically in the relevant (Appalachian) area, which is, of course, a rhotic area. So I'm a bit confused still. Are there two different processes involved, which overlap and clash? LH >_____________________________________________________________ > > >> >>Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, >>that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old >>Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final >>/@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation >>is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 20:02:04 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:02:04 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101902.l9AAmZgN005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Got damp in the basement, but it didn't get wet! Larry, will you *please* stop reminding me how old I am?! Have a little mercy. Yes, it was back in the mid-'Sixties in Los Angeles that I saw the Stanley Brothers. At that particular time and place, the blue-grass sound was so hip that *everybody* was diggin' it. Well, not to the extent that the previous sentence may imply. Once you get past the Stanleys, my knowledge of blue-grass diminishes to the level of "I know it when I hear it." Off the top of my head, I know only the ancient "Mountain Dew" and the strange "Finger poppin' Time," WRT song-titles. -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:26 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume > >that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far > >more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none > >whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > >and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > >Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing > >all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, > >especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you > >haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters > >and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, > >if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two > >versions. > > > >FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. > > > >-Wilson > > Not too recently, I trust, given that (while Ralph is still going > strong) Carter died 40 years ago, which had deleterious consequences > on his crosspicking technique... > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Wed Oct 10 21:29:57 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:29:57 -0700 Subject: docent In-Reply-To: <200710101431.l9AAkr3N003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my personal (as contrasted with professional, lexicographic) experience, a docent is not merely any "tour guide" but one who works in a museum and is usually knowledgeable about the exhibited art. Today, of course, anybody shouting about Soho from the top of a tour bus might well be called a docent. L. Urdang Old Lyme "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: docent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The OED(2) definition sure needs an updating. E.g,, museum docents. Joel At 10/10/2007 09:59 AM, James Landau wrote: > From an Associated Press article, available on-line at >http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 >0071006124409990001 > >Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public >By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP > >The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army >Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will >begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing >year-round on the first Saturday of the month. > >Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at >least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents >so dates can be added. > > >"Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". > >OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" > >OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. >Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have >been published in 1972. > >What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit >number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. >Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the >issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded >in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges >put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. >Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke >College is dated 1838. > >You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The >journal was in Norwegian. > >James A. Landau >Test Engineer >Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES >^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore >in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry >Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he >was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore >and make the promised purchase. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 21:38:41 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:38:41 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101957.l9AAmZmZ005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As teenagers in Saint Louis, we used to use rhotic "feller" and "yeller" as joking pronunciations mocking "hill-billy" talk," just because we could. We had no contact at all with "hill-biliies," except on the radio and in the movies, (anybody else remember, e.g., Maw & Paw Kettle or Judy Canova and her rhotic feller, Lukey [liukI], who "shore did love at-air gal"?) and had no reason to mock them. Down home in Texas, "windih" [wIndI] was the usual BE pronunciation of "window"; in Saint Louis, it was "winduh" [wind@]. When a map showed me that the Poconos are part of the Appalachians, I started jokingly referring to my wife's PA hometown as being located in the rhotic "holler." -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:49 PM -0400 10/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the > >"-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or > >affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say > >that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than > >in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? > > > >--Charlie > > Oh right, "feller". Also "holler" ('declivity'), "winder", and > "tater". I see now that there's a "regional note" under "holler" in > the AHD4 , but it indicates all these are indeed pronounced > rhotically in the relevant (Appalachian) area, which is, of course, a > rhotic area. So I'm a bit confused still. Are there two different > processes involved, which overlap and clash? > > LH > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > >>Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, > >>that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old > >>Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final > >>/@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation > >>is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >> > >>LH > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Wed Oct 10 21:45:25 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:45:25 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710101949.l9AHwpvN003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have noted in recent years the semantic change in gentleman: most notably is its use by the police to describe a murderous rapist or other felon, e.g., "We arrested the gentleman as he was about to attack a woman in the entryway." I call your attention to it because I took particular exception to such usage that occurred the other day, on the TV news, when the chief archivist of the National Holocaust Museum, in looking over some photos in an album kept by an officer at Auschwitz, referred to one individual as "this gentleman": it was Dr. Mengele. Perhaps we shall soon be hearing about "that sweetie, Adolf Hitler," "dear old Heinrich Himmler," and other monsters of the Third Reich. I sent the Museum an email expressing my strong objection to this semantic warping and the head of the Eastern Region phoned me today. One might think she'd apologize, but instead she made it clear that while she agreed with my criticism of the distortion, she was not apologizing because the quotation had not come from her lips. The (youngish) woman who had uttered the word did not mean anything evil or inconsiderate, and my point is to show how language change can bring about offensive usage that ought to be noted, commented on, and not tolerated. So much for being an academically cool observer of the passing linguistic scene. L. Urdang P.S. Let us not labor the point any further with a barrage of emails either in criticism or in support. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 22:28:08 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:28:08 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101909.l9AFpmcZ005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert /r/ a la Britspeak. FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" (Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, "light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as "night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? -Wilson -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. > >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, > >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > > > >-Wilson > > Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that > "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" > (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather > than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is > essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > > LH > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > >> used to represent [@:]). > >> > > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> > Wilson, > >> > > >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> > both). > >> > > >> > dInIs > > >> > > >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> > >----------------------- > >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> > > > >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> > > > >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> > > > >> > >-Wilson > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> > >>----------------------- > >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >-- > >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> > >----- > >> > > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > >> > > > >> > -- > >> > Dennis R. Preston > >> > University Distinguished Professor > >> > Department of English > >> > 15C Morrill Hall > >> > Michigan State University > >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> > 517-353-4736 > >> > preston at msu.edu > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 10 22:43:02 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:43:02 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710102228.l9AJd4Pl005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk) in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s. I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was "revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered. Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert >/r/ a la Britspeak. > >FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever >race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any >evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in >the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" >(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, >"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of >a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred >to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people >refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as >"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." > >I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los >Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and >one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, >darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, >of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. >Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as >we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain >down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? > >-Wilson > >-Wilson >On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. >> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, >> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that >> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" >> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather >> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is >> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about >> >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically >> >> used to represent [@:]). >> >> >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >> > Wilson, >> >> > >> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> >> > both). >> >> > >> >> > dInIs >> >> >> > >> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >> > >----------------------- >> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray >> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > >> >> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." >> >> > > >> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> >> > > >> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine >>from down home >> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd >>speaker/singer from >> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> >> > > >> >> > >-Wilson >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >> > >>----------------------- >> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say >>that, hits 'Katy, >> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, >>hits 'Katy, >> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> > >> >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >-- >> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange >>complaint to >> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> > >----- >> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> > Dennis R. Preston >> >> > University Distinguished Professor >> >> > Department of English >> >> > 15C Morrill Hall >> >> > Michigan State University >> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 >> >> > 517-353-4736 >> >> > preston at msu.edu >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 00:52:34 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:52:34 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710101951.l9AAmZm7005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, David Bergdahl wrote: > > Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means > "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find > increasingly rare. I think "positive anymore" is driving "negative any > more" out of existence. Or, at least that's what it seems in Athens, which > one daughter once claimed was situated "between Appalachia and the Midwest." On the page below you'll find a chart comparing US/UK usage of open vs. closed "any( )more", along with "some( )day", "under( )way", "some( )time", etc., as reflected by the Oxford English Corpus: http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/oec03/ Obviously this doesn't distinguish the various possible contexts where "any( )more" can appear, but I think the US predilection for the closed form is too large to be ascribed simply to "positive anymore" usage (though that no doubt plays a contributing role). --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 01:17:19 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:17:19 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710101528w162b3563k8f84af57e3ed1aa8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray asks > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > the past? This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith sings "I aint no high yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I remember it, and not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see that the transcription of the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't where it should be. A crisis I will deal with another time. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 01:36:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:36:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710110117.l9AKvIBv005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, George Thompson wrote: > > Wilson Gray asks > > > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > > the past? > > This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith sings "I aint no high > yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I remember it, and > not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) > > Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see that the transcription of > the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. > The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't where it should be. A crisis > I will deal with another time. I have that song on "The Complete Recordings, Vol. 3", where the songwriting credit is given to Bessie Smith herself. Confirmed here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html FWIW, Michael Taft's concordance of pre-war blues lyrics gives the line as "I ain't no high yellow : I'm a *deep killer* brown". I'm guessing the use of asterisks around "deep killer" indicates a disputed transcription, though "deep killer" sounds plausible to me from a quick listen. See: , where one can also find various other "high yellow"s in the concordance. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 02:34:23 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:34:23 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710102145.l9AJd4I9005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. Has anyone here done a study on ratio of negative to positive uses of politeness forms? I'm sure there's something out there, but I'm not up to looking it up tonight... I wonder whether we're not on the way to a majority use of politeness forms for negative connotations. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 11 02:49:09 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:49:09 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics literature. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Oct 11 02:49:00 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:49:00 -0500 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) Message-ID: I used to hear it in Decatur, IL, in the 60s and 70s. Probably only from whites, though. A significant part of Decatur's black population had migrated from Tennessee (Brownsville is a town name I remember) to work in factories and foundries. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in the past? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 02:50:03 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:50:03 -0400 Subject: about we Message-ID: Just heard from Dalton McGuinty, in his reelection victory speech (premier of Ontario): "They're about we. We Ontarians." James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 03:07:04 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:07:04 -0400 Subject: delicatessen Message-ID: I turned up the item below while reading the [New York] Sun the other day. . . . the "delicatessen" at 177 Bowery. . . . The Sun, October 25, 1879, p. 1, col. 3 The earliest entry in OED is 1889, except for an occurrence that it supposes to be unassimilated German. Delicacies or relishes for the table; esp. attrib., in delicatessen shop, store. b. ellipt. A delicatessen shop. [1877 E. S. DALLAS Kettner's Bk. of Table 399 A house which abounds in foreign dainties of all sorts{em}Lingner's Delicatessen Handlung, 46, Old Compton Street, Soho.] 1889 Kansas Times & Star 7 Nov., Burglars broke into Blake's delicatessen store..and..made an awful mess of the juicy stuff, canned and bottled. 1893 Harper's Mag. Apr. 660 They [sc. Germans in New York] maintain..their delicatessen shops and pork butchers. *** Checking various Proquest files, I find: . . . sausages, sauerkraut and other delicatessen. . . . New York Times, March 27, 1875. p. 3 A liberal rule for calculation in laying in supplies at Quebec is to allow thirty cents for each ration, on the basis of two served to every man of the party each day for ordinary stores, . . . and for what the Germans call delicatessen. . . . Scribner's Monthly, May 1877. Vol. XIV., Iss. No. 1.; p. 46?[the last page of the article] 1884: European Hotel, Restaurant, and Delicatessen. [in St. Louis] Colman's Rural World, March 20, 1884. Vol. 37, Iss. 12; p. 96 So the Sun's passage is the earliest in the sense of a shop, and the 1875 & 1877 citations antedate the sense of a comestible. The Proquest databases offer 2 other citations that are still earlies, but the first is the name of a shop in Germany and the second is unassimilated German. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 03:17:00 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:17:00 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks. I thought that that would be the case, but I wanted to be sure that it was by a native speaker of BE. ""deep killer" was one of the transcriptions I saw by Google. I've always heard "'ticular" (not, actually, "particular",) but I wouldn't go to the stake maintaining that as the truth. My daughter, Elizabeth Sarah, is named in honor of Bessie Smith. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Zimmer Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:01 pm Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > On 10/10/07, George Thompson wrote: > > > > Wilson Gray asks > > > > > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > > > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > > > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even > in > > > the past? > > > > This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith > sings "I aint no high > > yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I > remember it, and > > not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) > > > > Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see > that the transcription of > > the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. > > The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't > where it should be. A crisis > > I will deal with another time. > > I have that song on "The Complete Recordings, Vol. 3", where the > songwriting credit is given to Bessie Smith herself. Confirmed here: > > http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html > > FWIW, Michael Taft's concordance of pre-war blues lyrics gives the > line as "I ain't no high yellow : I'm a *deep killer* brown". I'm > guessing the use of asterisks around "deep killer" indicates a > disputed transcription, though "deep killer" sounds plausible to me > from a quick listen. > > See: <, where one can also find various > other "high yellow"s in the concordance. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Thu Oct 11 05:46:38 2007 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:46:38 +0800 Subject: Heel or Boot (end slice of bread); NewspaperArchive not updating? In-Reply-To: <200709230609.l8MAlhL3027659@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hey Barry -- > HEEL OR BOOT > ... > Does anyone (from Texas) have an opinion on "heel" or "boot" for the > end slice of a loaf of bread? Always heel in our fam...folks from the mid-west, I grew up in southern California. Never heard boot being used for the end slice of a loaf of bread. -r ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 06:08:43 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:08:43 -0400 Subject: Vick 'em / Gig 'em Message-ID: ----- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300616,00.html LUBBOCK, Texas — Texas Tech has banned the sale of a T-shirt bearing the likeness of Michael Vick hanging the dog mascot of rival Texas A&M. The red and black shirts, with text that says "VICK 'EM" on the front in an apparent reference to the Aggies' slogan "Gig 'em," was created by a Tech student who was trying to sell them before Saturday's game in Lubbock. The back of the shirt shows a football player wearing the No. 7 Vick jersey holding a rope with an image of the mascot Reveille at the end of a noose. Vick, who faces up to five years in prison after pleading guilty to a federal dogfighting charge, is suspended indefinitely by the NFL. [etc.] ----- Barry's already covered "Gig 'em": http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/gig_em_aggies/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 08:02:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:02:34 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) Message-ID: O.T.: GET GRASS, LOSE ALL COMMUNICATION. Two days ago, I lost my entire Time Warner triple play (internet, cable, phone). I was told to wait at home from 8 a.m. until midnight. The guy finally came at 4 p.m. and fixed the thing into two minutes. ... We put in new grass at the house, and the men adjusted the sprinkler system. Apparently, the guys cut the cable line to the house next to me. They waited three days for Time Warner to arrive (it happened Friday afternoon). When Time Warner re-connected the house next door on Monday, it disconnected my house. Time Warner really sucks...Man, it was all because of the grass. ... O.T.: AOL-ELLEN DEGENERES AOL is running something with Ellen DeGeneres about why she should come visit your town. A featured question is about the "Windy City." Then local drinks are explained, like "Long Island Iced Tea." In the AOL quiz today (http://ellen.aol.com/editorial/the+surprising+state+trivia+quiz), it's said that "iced tea" comes from Missouri. Iced tea was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, dontcha know. I really must kill myself. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ STEAK FINGERS ... "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. It seems to be a regional dish, starting at West Texas drive-ins in the 1950s. Buddy;s Drive In at Andrews, TX is most famous for it today. It should be in a Texas Food Museum that I'd really like to get off the ground, at least on the web. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/steak_fingers/ ... Entry from October 11, 2007 Steak Fingers (Steakfingers) "Steak fingers" (breaded beef strips) became popular snacks at West Texas drive-ins in the 1950s and 1960s. Buddy's Drive In (Andrews, TX) began in 1969 and claims to be "Steakfinger Headquarters," but it did not invent "steak fingers." Dairy Queen has had "steak fingers" on its menu since at least 1966. Buddy's Drive In The words Steakfinger Headquarters are painted in blue letters on the side of the little white building with the carport out front at 106 East Broadway (432-523-2840). And that's no lie. Eating steak fingers at Buddy's is a religious experience, though not a weight loss program. The order is enormous, and it costs just $4.95. The pile of tender, tasty steak fingers probably stands half a foot high. Steak fingers, in case you didn't know, are breaded strips of beef. I should also mention that the steak fingers come with a bowl of creamy gravy for dipping. Very few people can finish an order all by themselves, said Marion Chapman, a waitress here for twenty- five years, so many people share. "This one man, he had never ordered steak fingers. 'Oh ma'am, I didn't know you were going to bring the last supper.' " Buddy's has been around since 1969. Yes there is a Buddy, though he doesn't run the place. The owners are Minnie Coleman and Floy Robertson. Buddy is Minnie's husband. "We just decided to name it after him," Floy said. "We thrashed that around for about a month. Finally, we came up with his name." When someone dies in Andrews, Buddy's sends the grieving family large roasting pans of steak fingers to help them through their loss. "And the gravy that goes with it," Floy said. "That's better than flowers. That's all we can give." Imitation being the purest form of flattery, Buddy's name has popped up in other places. "There are some places in Houston that have signs that say they have steak fingers like Buddy's in Andrews, Texas," Floy said. "There's a restaurant in New York that has the same thing inside. A guy from Odessa said he and his wife were visiting in downtown New York, and the first thing they saw was a sign that said they had steak fingers like Andrews, Texas." Maybe so, but a pile of steak fingers like they serve at Buddy's would cost you about $99 in New York City. South Texas Dairy Queen Menu Steak Finger Country Basket It's a Texas original that has made Texas Dairy Queen stores famous for almost 50 years! Juicy steak fingers, crisp French fries, Texas toast, and creamy country gravy make the Steak Finger Country Basket* a great meal for lunch or dinner. Have a four-piece Basket, or if you're really hungry, go for a 6-piece Country Basket*. Some Texas stores also offer an 8-piece Country Basket*. All Recipes Steak Fingers SUBMITTED BY: Rita Fay "Easy to make and a favorite of my family. Excellent with french fries and a salad!!" INGREDIENTS 1/3 cup vegetable oil 1 pound round steak 2 eggs 1/2 cup milk salt and pepper to taste 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour for coating DIRECTIONS Tenderize steak by pounding with a mallet. Cut into 3 inch long strips. Combine egg, milk, salt and pepper in a shallow dish, whisk until well blended. In a large skillet over medium heat, heat 1/3 cup oil (or just enough to cover the bottom of the pan). Coat steak pieces in flour. Shake off excess. Then dip in the egg mixture and again in flour. Fry the strips in the hot oil until golden brown; about 2 minutes. Transfer to a plate lined with paper towels to absorb oil. Cooks.com STEAK FINGERS Round steak, sprinkle with meat tenderizer and let stand 1 hour. Cut into bite size or finger size pieces. Combine and dip meat pieces in 2 eggs, milk, Worcestershire sauce then roll in flour, then deep fry. 3 September 1934, San Antonio (TX) Express, pg. 5, col. 3: Buns, butter, barbecue sauce, individual steak fingers, corn on the cob, coffee, watermelon made up the menu. 7 November 1951, Big Spring (TX) Daily Herald, pg.9 9, col. 3 ad: Chicken in the Basket Chicken in the Box Steak Fingers in the Basket EVERYBODY'S DRIVE INN 30 December 1952, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Steak Fingers in Basket...65c CLOCK DRIVE-INS 5 November 1953, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 2A, col. 5 ad: Take Home Specials All Served in Baskets with Plenty of French Fries: Steak Fingers Chicken Shrimp CASEY'S RESTAURANTS 11 November 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, Julie Benell's Recipe, part 2, pg. 1: FINGER STEAK SANDWICHES For easy eating prepare steak finger sandwiches from a steak that is one and one-half inches thick. Brush it on both sides with garlic butter and broil or grill over hot coals, turning several times and brushing with garlic butter each time. When the steak reaches the desired stage of "doneness"cut in half-inch strips, place each strip in a hot frankfurter roll and serve. 23 June 1954, Ada (OK) Evening News, pg. 10, col. 2 ad: JIM'S DRIVE-IN Our Menu Features: Charcoal Broiled Hamburgers Fish and Chips Steak Fingers Shrimp Sandwiches 24 September 1955, El Paso (TX) Prospector, pg. 7, col. 2 ad: FIESTA DRIVE-IN THEATRE Have You Seen Our New Cinebar? Serving only the Finest in Foods, Southern Fried Chicken, Steak FIngers & Jumbo Shrimp, all served with French Fries & Hot Rolls. 4 May 1957, Tucson (AZ) Daily Citizen, pg. 10, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers French Fries, Garlic Toast, Boxed To Go! 95c LUCKY WISHBONE 2 July 1957, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Fiesta Drive In Theatre Fiesta Snack Bar Features: Southern Fried Chicken, Tasty Steak Fingers, Fried Jumbo Shrimp, all served with Golden Brown French Fries, Hot Buttered Rolls, and a Donut. 19 February 1959, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 40, col. 3 ad: CLOCK Drive-Ins STEAK FINGERS Breaded Golden Brown Steak Strips, French Fries, Toasted Buttered Rolls 65c 31 March 1959, Tucson (AZ) Daily Citizen, pg. 17, col. 5: Steak Fingers...95c Chicken Carousel 1 July 1960, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Recipes of the Day" by Julie Benell, section 3, pg. 4: STEAK FINGER SANDWICHES Have your meat man cut filets or strips at least 1 1/2 inches thick. Brush the meat on both sides with garlic butter and broil over the charcoal or in the oven. When done, cut in half-inch strips, place one or two strips on a hot frankfurter roll or a hamburger bun, and serve plain or with a spicy barbecue sauce. 17 October 1961, Amarillo (TX) Globe-Times, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Steak Fingers for 75c 4 steak fingers with Hidy fries, heart of lettuce with dressing, buttered sesame seed bun, drink and dessert. HI-D-HO 30 October 1964, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 12A, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers 73c Kims 13 April 1966, Hobbs (NM) Daily News-Sun, pg. 6, col. 7 ad: Steak Fingers and Shrimp Also Served in the Box. DAIRY QUEEN 30 September 1966, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 11C, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers in a basket 69c DAIRY QUEEN 22 January 1969, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 13 ad: Steak Finger Patties Winkin Chef Breaded… LB. 89c 12 June 1969, Dallas (TX) Morning News section E, pg. 17 ad: Gooch - All Meat Steak Fingers 12-oz. pkg. 79c 29 December 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section C, pg. 11 ad: DAIRY QUEEN Steak Finger Basket Sale only 79c Enjoy a delicious Steak Finger Basket. Special sale Price, only 79c!! That's Golden, Scrumptious Steakfingers, Crispy Fries, Texas Toast and Real Country Gravy. Google Books Plowboys, Cowboys, and Slanted Pigs by Jerry Flemmons Fort Worth, TX: TCU Press 1984 Pg. 104: For the record, Texas also invented the ice cream sundae, the Margarita, frozen steak fingers, corn chips, stadium nachos and the Marpeani, which is a regular martini except that the olive is replaced by a blackeyed pea. Google Books Texasville a novel by Larry McMurtry New York, NY: Simon and Schuster 1987 Pg. 162: The twins were slurping malts and foraging at will from a heap of cheeseburgers, French fries, nachos, steak fingers, tacos, and other delicacies. Google Books Amarillo by Morning by Bay Matthews New York, NY: Silhouette Books 1988 Pg. 136: Russ smiled. "If you disregard Dairy Queen's steak fingers, they have the only chicken-fried steak in town." Google Books The $100 Hamburger: A Guide to Pilots' Favorite Fly-In Restaurants by John F. Purner New York, NY: McGraw-Hill 1998 Pg. 282: Andrews, TX Buddy's Drive Inn If you like REAL steak fingers, go to Buddy's Drive Inn. The steak fingers are sliced from round steak fillets and deep fried to a golden brown. The portions are huge, you WON'T go away hungry. The price is about $6 per parson, and they have doggie bags on hand. Google Books Texas Road Trip by Bryan Woolley Fort Worth, TX: TCU Press 2004 Pg. 21: They go for the box dinners of chicken strips, steak fingers, fried cod, or shrimp, served with fries, a corn fritter, toast, and a pickle. (Sky-Vue Drive-In in Lamesa—ed.) MyWestTexas.com Buddy's to serve up steak fingers again 08/30/2005 By Ruth Campbell Staff Writer Midland Reporter-Telegram ANDREWS—Buddy's Drive-In, temporarily closed five months ago, reopens Wednesday with new but familiar owners. Kelsey Robertson, grandson of Floy Robertson who co-founded the restaurant with Minnie Coleman, and Mary Anderson, a former waitress, have assumed ownership. The restaurant, at 106 E. Broadway in Andrews, is named after "buddies" Robertson and Coleman. "My grandmother was one of the original owners of the restaurant. I'm pretty much opening it as a tribute to her and her partner," said Robertson, who grew up at the eatery and is the nephew of former co-owner Bonnie Duncan. "It's something I always wanted to do. I feel like I need to do it for my grandmother. We've got a lot of restaurants here in town serving steak fingers, but nothing compares to what we've got," he added. Robertson said he, friends, family and former employees spent about two weeks cleaning and remodeling Buddy's for its re-opening. The eatery will have about 10 employees and feature the same steak fingers that made it famous. "We're hoping to put it back to the style of steak fingers my mother and Minnie started with," Robertson said. (...) The Andrews Chamber of Commerce constantly gets calls about the eatery's steak fingers. Google Books Identity Envy: Wanting to Be Who We're Not Creative Nonfiction by Queer Writers edited by Jim Tushinski and Jim Can Buskirk Binghamton, NY: Harrington Park Press 2007 Pg. 25: In Europe, I dream of Texas. (...) I do not dream of fried rabbit with calf brains, roasted cingale, or petite, discrete, and oh-so-chic gelato. My slumber binges center on Tex-Mex victuals, and I do not mean the anemic concoctions of California, New Mexico, or Oregon. I crave the real grub of carne guisada, pico de gallo, and chili con carne. On the pure Tex side: steak, steak fingers, and chicken-fried steak. Texas toast and endless iced tea. Frito Pie and Snickers Bar Cake. Dripping saved for gravy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Thu Oct 11 10:04:39 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:04:39 -0400 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: > At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >> Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >> their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >> similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >> as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >> deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >> what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >> negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >> diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > > And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or > pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics > literature. I have certainly heard the word 'gentleman' used ironically by police officers and others to mean someone really bad--my sense is that they are well aware of the ironic use they are making of it. Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 11 11:20:20 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:20:20 +0100 Subject: Wenis Message-ID: Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 11 12:30:28 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:30:28 -0400 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: It's my sense that the quoted use of "gentleman" was not intended deprecatorily or ironically--just neutrally generic: 'adult male'. You know, the kind of person who uses a public restroom marked "Gentlemen," where admittance requires no social-class or moral credentials. That's a different issue, of course, from how designations like "gentleman" and "lady" AFFECT those in whose presence the words are used. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:49:09 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: gentleman >> >At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >>Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > >And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics literature. > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Thu Oct 11 13:35:57 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:35:57 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111004.l9AKvIav005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these glasses into the dishwasher." It is refreshing to see a lively, intelligent, well-informed discussion of language matters on this exchange, but it is increasingly salted with the patronizing comments and quasi-learned discourses on a subject that, perhaps properly, is not felt to beyond the calling of anybody who can read and write. For those who might have missed it, there is an article or two in the current issue of Nature revealing that what we call strong verbs (that is, those that change their form to make a past, like take, took, run, ran) vs. those we call weak verbs (those that simply add a dental or alveolar ending, like book, booked, ban, banned) are slowly changing into weak verbs because of "pressure" exerting by the weak and are not changing faster only because of their great frequency in the language. I hope they don't start giving out Nobel prizes for that sort of linguistic insight, but it is another good example of the low level of scholarship that has pervaded even professional linguistics. I am no longer struck by the lack of originality characterizing the topics accepted for doctoral dissertations in linguistics, one that I had previously thought was reserved for dissertations on English literature (where I once found seven, almost identical, on Monk Lewis in the library at Butler Library at Columbia alone). Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the game. The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. L. Urdang Old Lyme ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:07:00 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:07:00 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710102145.l9AJd4I9005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can't say how long since I began to notice this use of "gentleman," but it's been a while. Isn't the (ultimate) source of the problem a vague feeling that "man" must be avoided? (Note too that "gentleman" contains more syllables.) Cf. the nearly universal TV talk-show practice of avoiding "boy" and "girl" unless the child is obviously a tiny infant. "Young man" or "young woman" is almost always substituted. JL Laurence Urdang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Urdang Subject: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have noted in recent years the semantic change in gentleman: most notably is its use by the police to describe a murderous rapist or other felon, e.g., "We arrested the gentleman as he was about to attack a woman in the entryway." I call your attention to it because I took particular exception to such usage that occurred the other day, on the TV news, when the chief archivist of the National Holocaust Museum, in looking over some photos in an album kept by an officer at Auschwitz, referred to one individual as "this gentleman": it was Dr. Mengele. Perhaps we shall soon be hearing about "that sweetie, Adolf Hitler," "dear old Heinrich Himmler," and other monsters of the Third Reich. I sent the Museum an email expressing my strong objection to this semantic warping and the head of the Eastern Region phoned me today. One might think she'd apologize, but instead she made it clear that while she agreed with my criticism of the distortion, she was not apologizing because the quotation had not come from her lips. The (youngish) woman who had uttered the word did not mean anything evil or inconsiderate, and my point is to show how language change can bring about offensive usage that ought to be noted, commented on, and not tolerated. So much for being an academically cool observer of the passing linguistic scene. L. Urdang P.S. Let us not labor the point any further with a barrage of emails either in criticism or in support. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:17:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:17:59 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111004.l9AKvIav005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geoff, my impression is that - whatever they're thinking - the usage of cops on the evening news almost always comes across as bland and matter-of-fact. I'm now receiving a vague signal from an admittedly impaired memory cell that some time during the '70s police nationwide were encouraged always to address citizens and "Sir" or "Ma'am," particularly when they were about to arrest them. The idea was that being respectful tends to make even some thugs a little more cooperative. Also, they're innocent till proven otherwise. The practice was also intended to help police remember that they shouldn't shove people around without a good reason. JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >> Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >> their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >> similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >> as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >> deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >> what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >> negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >> diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > > And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or > pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics > literature. I have certainly heard the word 'gentleman' used ironically by police officers and others to mean someone really bad--my sense is that they are well aware of the ironic use they are making of it. Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:29:26 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:29:26 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111336.l9BAkJqU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was pretty original: "Juan Manuel Toro, Josep B Trobalon and Nuria Sebastian-Galles of the Universitat de Barcelona, won the Linguistics award for showing that rats sometimes cannot tell the difference between a person speaking Japanese backwards and a person speaking Dutch backwards." But this was just an "Ig Nobel" Prize. So far. JL Laurence Urdang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Urdang Subject: Re: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these glasses into the dishwasher." It is refreshing to see a lively, intelligent, well-informed discussion of language matters on this exchange, but it is increasingly salted with the patronizing comments and quasi-learned discourses on a subject that, perhaps properly, is not felt to beyond the calling of anybody who can read and write. For those who might have missed it, there is an article or two in the current issue of Nature revealing that what we call strong verbs (that is, those that change their form to make a past, like take, took, run, ran) vs. those we call weak verbs (those that simply add a dental or alveolar ending, like book, booked, ban, banned) are slowly changing into weak verbs because of "pressure" exerting by the weak and are not changing faster only because of their great frequency in the language. I hope they don't start giving out Nobel prizes for that sort of linguistic insight, but it is another good example of the low level of scholarship that has pervaded even professional linguistics. I am no longer struck by the lack of originality characterizing the topics accepted for doctoral dissertations in linguistics, one that I had previously thought was reserved for dissertations on English literature (where I once found seven, almost identical, on Monk Lewis in the library at Butler Library at Columbia alone). Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the game. The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. L. Urdang Old Lyme ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Oct 11 14:46:24 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:46:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710110402.l9B1MfjX003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: David Bergdahl > Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means > "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find > increasingly rare... That's it! That explains the differences (which i've thought of as bizarre) that sometimes "I don't do that anymore" feels better than "I don't do that any more", and sometimes the other way around. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Oct 11 14:50:27 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:50:27 -0500 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710110802.l9ALPPVM003091@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > STEAK FINGERS > ... > "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see 14b). 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Athenæum No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:13:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:13:35 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710102243.l9AHwpM1003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know what to tell you, dInIs. The use of bright(-skinned) goes all the way back to my grandparents, at least, all of whom were born in the 19th Century, it goes without saying. (FWIW, I read in a ghost story called "The Duppy," back in the 'Fiddies, that "bright-skinned" was a Caribbeanism, But, I've known only a single West Indian in my entire life and the subject never came up.) (BTW, there were some so-called "Black Caribs" from Belize at the Michigan LSA in '73. I don't know whether they count as "West Indians" in the ordinary sense of the term.) I personally have never actually used or heard other than "light-skin," light-skinned," and "light-skinded" among my friends. As I've said, I know "high-yellow" only from reading. Maybe enough colored read, nowadays, for the term to have become commonly used. A lot can change in fiddy years. For example, fiddy years ago, "fifty" was pronounced "fit-tih" [fIttI] Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," replied that his stage name represents change. -Wilson On 10/10/07, Dennis Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Preston > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk) > in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s. > I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was > "revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered. > Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited > encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it. > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert > >/r/ a la Britspeak. > > > >FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > >race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > >evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > >the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" > >(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, > >"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of > >a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred > >to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people > >refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as > >"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." > > > >I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los > >Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and > >one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, > >darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, > >of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. > >Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as > >we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain > >down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? > > > >-Wilson > > > >-Wilson > >On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. > >> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, > >> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > >> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that > >> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" > >> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather > >> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is > >> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >> > >> LH > >> > >> > > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >>----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > >> >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > >> >> used to represent [@:]). > >> >> > >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> >> > Wilson, > >> >> > > >> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> >> > both). > >> >> > > >> >> > dInIs > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >> > >----------------------- > >> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> >> > > > >> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine > >>from down home > >> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd > >>speaker/singer from > >> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> >> > > > >> >> > >-Wilson > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >> > >>----------------------- > >> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say > >>that, hits 'Katy, > >> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, > >>hits 'Katy, > >> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > >-- > >> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange > >>complaint to > >> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >> > >----- > >> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens > >> >> > > > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Dennis R. Preston > >> >> > University Distinguished Professor > >> >> > Department of English > >> >> > 15C Morrill Hall > >> >> > Michigan State University > >> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> >> > 517-353-4736 > >> >> > preston at msu.edu > >> >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > Morrill Hall 15-C > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 15:35:30 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:35:30 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710111513.l9BF2lMk005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, > when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," > replied that his stage name represents change. Well, that's more pleasant than his other explanation, which is that it's an homage to the notorious triggerman Kelvin "50 Cent" Martin... ----- http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=1112 Nobody, including family and friends, seems to know exactly how Martin acquired the name 50 Cent. Some say he earned it in a dice game, after he walked away with a cool $500 after an initial wager of 50 cents. Others suspect it was because of his five-foot-three, 120-pound frame. "He was a short guy," says 50's former criminal cohort One Arm Monk, who fenced all the bling 50 stole. "He was little." [...] The pitiless mastermind of countless homicides, 50 Cent's reputation far outweighed the money he made, and his legacy lives on through folklore as well as through the music and imagery of Curtis "50 Cent" Jackson. "I took the name 50 Cent because it says everything I want it to say. I'm the same kind of person 50 Cent was. I provide for myself by any means," says Jackson. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:50:17 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:50:17 EDT Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/11/2007 10:50:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL writes: Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see 14b). 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Athenæum No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? ... ... Yes, it is true that there are many foods that are called "fingers." But "steak fingers" are more than merely "short and narrow pieces" of steak. They are breaded and deep-fried. ... For example, OED (Second Edition, 1989) has this in its "steak" entry: "attrib. and Comb., as steak dinner, -meat, pie, piece, pudding, sandwich;" ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:51:46 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:51:46 +0000 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: I have often heard young people refer to a person who is a good deal older than the speaker (and, usually, the hearer) as "an older gentleman." The use of "gentleman" rather than "guy" or simply man has always struck me as somewhat patronizing but not ironic. The usage is particularly common (imho) among folks who are describing the sexual (or even just social) advances of an older man who is respectable but no longer young enough to seem sexually attractive to the speaker. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 16:26:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:26:32 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Some Google numbers: ... STEAK FINGERS--20,500 Google hits STEAKFINGERS--1,080 Google hits CHICKEN FRIED STEAK FINGERS--2,770 Google hits ... Below is a nice interview about "chicken-fried steak" and "steak fingers" in West Texas. (It's easier to read at the site, where the questions are in bold.) ... Again, OED and DARE do not pay me. If OED wants to say "we'll disregard those 20,000 steak fingers hits," and if DARE wants to ignore West Texas food, those are decisions for them to make. ... ... ... http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/library/JonesInterview.htm How Chicken-Fried Steak Got Its Name Virginia Jones Birth: November 28, 1940 "Texas People Have Such a Love Affair" Note: This interview with Virginia Jones from the Cactus Cafe in West Texas was done at the 13th Texas Folklife Festival in 1984. The principal reason that I've got you here, Virginia, is because I want to know about chicken-fried steak. Are you coming from the Cactus Cafe? Yes, ma'am. And how did you happen to call it that? And how do you happen to be here? The Cactus Cafe got its name from a singer who is from Colorado City, whose name is Jay Boy Adams. He recorded a song about a Cactus Cafe that actually existed at one time in Colorado City. The song was about this old cowboy that would go in and drink coffee early in the morning and tell cowboy stories. And so we took the name "The Cactus Cafe" and actually even brought the original sign up at one time. It is just an old tin sign. Actually, the Cactus Cafe-that's not an uncommon name for a restaurant in West Texas. Uh-huh. I'm sure it isn't. Tell me how-what's the singer's name? Jay Boy Adams. Is it B-0-Y? Yes, it's like John Boy, after his father; this is Jay Boy, after his father. Texas people have such a love affair with chicken-fried steak. Everybody has favorite cafes and favorite recipes and whatnot. Have you any idea where all this started? Where is chicken-fried steak coming from? And what, in your opinion, is the right way to make it? My husband thinks that possibly it came from the wiener schnitzel in Germany, because German people did come and settle in Southwest Texas. He thinks that probably-and further west, where beef is so popular-that they just kind of devised a recipe for themselves. We make our chicken-fried steak pretty much the way I make it at home, and that is, we get regular round steak, and we have it only tenderized one time so that it will hold together. We cut it ourselves, cut the cutlets into steak fingers, put it in a mixture of flour, salt, pepper, and tenderizer. Then, in a mixture of eggs and milk, kind of let it drip out, and then back into another mixture of flour, salt, and pepper. And then we quick-freeze them to bring them to the Folklife Festival. You make them into fingers. That's not normal in a café, is it? Or in a restaurant? Or in a home? In West Texas, steak fingers are very popular. Except, usually, if you order them out, you will get what we call pre-fab meat that has the soybeans and is preformed. Ours is not. Ours is actually cut from the beef. You said flour and salt and pepper. Is there any-there's no hot stuff-no chili-no picante? No, nothing. You fry it? Yes. What do you fry it in? We fry them in just deep fryers. Yes, in deep fat. The way to fry chicken-fried steak is to fry it quickly, where it will get crusty on the outside and still remain tender on the inside as opposed to chicken that, you know, gets crusty on the outside, but you have to cook it a long time to get it done inside. You don't have to cook chicken-fried steak really all that long to get it done on the inside. Of course, you don't want it dried out. You want it to remain tender. Well, now I-when you say tenderizer, is that that stuff like "Adolph's" or something like that? Yes, ma'am. We did that because if you would have your own done in the grocery store, you might have it tenderized several times. You know, run through the tenderizer machine, but ours would fall apart as we have to handle it. So we just had it put through the tenderizer machine one time, just to get it kind of tenderized and break it up, and yet not have it where it was hard to hold together. But you still, after that-run it through the machine once-you still use some of that tenderizer powder. Yes, ma'am. Actually, this is the first year we've done that. We've done it several different ways, but this is basically the way we do it. We want our meat to be tender, but we want it to be real, too. And that's why we use the real cutlets. You don't want it to be mushy either? Sometimes when you over-tenderize it, it is just like eating mush. I hate it that way. Well, now, Texans argue by the hour about the gravy. Yes. (laughter) The gravy that goes on chicken-fried steak, now, how do you make that? People are fascinated by this. Apparently, not a lot of people make their own gravy. And even less numbers must make the cream gravy -it is what we make-the milk gravy-as opposed to brown roast gravy. All right. You make-you put in some grease-and if you're doing your chicken-fried steak-you just take some of the grease you fried your meat in. . . Oh. So it has the flavor. You put some grease in your skillet, then some flour and salt and pepper and make a roux. Then you gradually add your cold milk, stirring all the time, and just stir it over the medium-hot heat until it gets thick. And it's not real difficult to make, but you will find that if you've made it four or five times, it will never be the same consistency. Sometimes you'll come out with it a little thicker and sometimes a little thinner. But this is the way to make the cream gravy we have. Well, that's interesting. You use the same fat that you did the frying in? Yes. You get some of the meat flavor that way. Well, yes. That's the way we do it at home now. You can use just shortening, and we have done that some here to have, you know, the real clean shortening. I don't mean clean as opposed to dirty, but I mean as opposed to not cooked a lot . . . Used. Uh-huh. What kind of fat do you use for the deep-fat frying? Lard. Shortening. You do Crisco or one that's white? Well, we buy commercial shortening. But you don't use lard? You could. I don't think it would make a whole lot of difference. But we actually use shortening. It's supposed to be less troublesome and lower cholesterol or something like that. What is the reaction to people coming in? Do you sell a lot? Is it a popular thing? In the Folklife? Yes, it is a popular thing. The first year that we came, we had people come up and ask us if we were selling fried cactus. Then they'd find out that we were from West Texas, and they'd ask us if it was rattlesnake meat. We had some people ask us if it was chicken. But as we have been here over the years, this is our fifth year to come, most people seem to know now what we have. And we don't have to explain it. (laughter) I have noticed-I read all the every weekend criticisms or critiques of different restaurants around. And time and time again, chicken-fried steak comes up. "They make the best chicken-fried steak in San Antonio." "Their chicken-fried steak is tough." or "Their gravy isn't any good." Time and time again. So I think the public is being educated, but it seems to me that chicken-fried steak is very basic to the Texans. It is in West Texas. It is in West Texas. Are you from West Texas? Yes, ma'am. It's home. Is it? Oh, yes. In fact, I am a lover of chicken-fried steak, and I rarely order it out, because I know the way I like it, and I am oftentimes disappointed. And I think a lot of times the meat, maybe, isn't as good as it should be. Or, they will use-they have packaged gravy mix-and a lot of restaurants use that. We don't think that's as good as making it from scratch. No, I don't either. I think that's awful. Did you say-are you from Colorado City? Not originally, but I have lived there for five years. And I am a West Texas girl. Are you? So you know what's what about West Texas, don't you? Well, I've eaten chicken-fried steak all my life. Although I didn't grow up havin' it in my home, so much, but I had a friend. I think it's interesting to note that probably a lot of poor people used to eat chicken-fried steak, because a friend grew up in a home where her father had been killed when she was very young. And they didn't have very much money, but they had chicken-fried steak all the time. Whereas my family, we weren't rich, but we were more middle class, we had roast and steak and things. Of course, I had a rancher for a granddaddy, so we had our own beef. Yeah. You had meat. But I think chicken-fried steak has been popular for a long time. Well, I can remember when I was young, the round steak was a cheap buy. And when you talk about your friend who didn't have much money, I can remember my mother tenderizing it, pounding flour into it, with the edge of a saucer. Yes, or I've even done this myself-used a glass-and pounded it on the cabinet. (pounding table) (laughter) Well, she always-I can still see her doing that thing. Is there a special menu that goes with chicken-fried steak? What kind of potatoes? What kind of vegetables? Usually, they serve French fries. Oh, do they? Or baked potatoes in West Texas. Now we are serving something that not exactly-goes with chicken-fried steak but is a good addition to it-and we call-they're hot puffs. And what they are is canned biscuits. And you can buy the cheapest canned biscuits available. You deep-fry them like you would a doughnut. They puff up, and they are good with the cream gravy, and we also serve them with honey. And you can poke holes in it like you do in a sopapilla and pour the honey in. And that's what we serve at our booth [at Folklife], the chicken-fried steak, the hot puffs, and the cream gravy and honey. That's interesting. I was going to say you've got to have something to put that cream gravy on. French-fried potatoes wouldn't do. No. Well, yes. Oh, yes. We eat the cream gravy with. . . On French-fried potatoes? Oh, that's one of my husband's favorite meals. In fact, sometimes if I'm not going to prepare supper or something, he will go in and cook French fries and make a bunch of cream gravy. He loves that. He doesn't mind it getting-getting the gravy on the . . . ? No. In fact we have a restaurant in Colorado City, and it does have very good chicken-fried steak. We always order extra cream gravy to go with our French fries. Oh, really? I've learned something I didn't know-that you deep-fat fried that. You can see I'm not a native Texan-I thought it was a piece of meat that was sautéed in fat in the skillet. Well, of course you can fix round steak that way, but I don't think it's as good. Now at home, you don't have to deep-fry. In other words, when I say that, when we deep-fry it, we completely submerge it here in the grease because we have the cookers. At home I don't do that because I just don't want to use that much grease and be bothered with it. I just use an iron skillet and fry it on one side and then turn it and fry it on the other. Uh-huh. But you do the fingers always. No. Not always. Not always, no. The reason we're doing the fingers here is because people are eating with their hands. It's easier to serve. And it's easier to serve. You will find it in fast foods, like Dairy Queen sells chicken-fried steak fingers. Your husband thinks that it comes from wiener schnitzel? That's awfully interesting, you know. I never gave it a thought because wiener schnitzel always has a fried egg on top. Uh-huh. And it is battered, though, isn't it? Well, it's similar. You can see possibly how that could be the origin, even though we've made a . . . And it's always veal in Europe, but in Texas veal is not very popular. Well, it used to be. I've been married about 22 years, and when I first got married, I bought veal cutlets for chicken-fried steak. Did you? Uh-huh. But now you can hardly ever find veal to buy. And if you do, it's so expensive. It is so costly. We couldn't buy it out in West Texas-in small West Texas towns. We can now get it. Kroger's is selling it now. It's white veal like I grew up with, and it's pretty good, but it's not quite right yet. It doesn't quite suit me. You all might be interested to know how we did come out here. Oh, I think that would be interesting. Yes, of course. My husband and I-we came to the Folklife Festival as a family on a vacation six years ago-and we were fascinated by it like most people-and he went back and said "You know, they've got everything there but chicken-fried steak. And since that's the national food of West Texas, I'm going to write them." He wrote them a letter, and in the letter he said, you know, that they didn't have this and he thought that they should. And he said, since I cooked the best chicken-fried steak in Texas, I think you ought to invite me and my organization to come out. (laughter) So that is how we got to come to the Folklife Festival. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 16:19:56 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:19:56 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710111550.l9BF2lY0005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Barry A. Popik wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/2007 10:50:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL writes: > > Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: > > 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for > finger-biscuit (see 14b). > > 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Atheneum > No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. > > The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other > items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, > shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't > necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? > > Yes, it is true that there are many foods that are called "fingers." But =20 > "steak fingers" are more than merely "short and narrow pieces" of steak. They > are breaded and deep-fried.=20 As are "chicken fingers", of course, and presumably other fingers of the meat variety. From a quick search of the databases, I see chicken fingers of the deep-fried variety (as opposed to chicken finger sandwiches and the like) showing up in a May 1971 Art Buchwald column about a DC sandwich shop that sold something called "The Goldflnger" ("boneless all-white meat deep-fried chicken fingers topped with cole slaw, Russian dressing and pickle slices on a double-twist seeded roll"). So "chicken fingers" are perhaps not quite as old as the Texan "steak fingers" of the '50s, but they're certainly better known now thanks to national chains like KFC. In any case, it looks like the OED needs a new sense for "finger" to cover the deep-fried fast-food genre, but individual entries for "steak fingers", "chicken fingers", etc., don't seem warranted. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 11 16:47:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:47:07 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9D3F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 9:50 AM -0500 10/11/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > > >> STEAK FINGERS >> ... >> "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. > >Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: > > 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any >material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see >14b). > >1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or >Naples biscuits. 1865 Athenæum No. 1989. 803/2 >Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. > >The fact that it is colocated with steak, >chicken, or any of several other items (Googling >shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet >potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, >french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't >necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does >it? Maybe we need to develop a new lexical item, Texas tempura. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 11 17:06:57 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: palindromic? Message-ID: Sophie Harrison, review of Peter Nadas's Fire and Knowledge, NYT Book Review, 9/7/07, p. 19: No one writes a palindromic phrase like Nadas. On writing: "The ideal literary sentence may be born of imagination or experience, but it must gauge its imagination within its experience and its experience within its imagination." further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in different ways. it looks like harrison reached into her stock of technical terms and pulled out a wrong (but semantically related) one. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 17:29:16 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: palindromic? In-Reply-To: <200710111707.l9BAnTVJ013403@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > Sophie Harrison, review of Peter Nadas's Fire and Knowledge, NYT Book > Review, 9/7/07, p. 19: > > No one writes a palindromic phrase like Nadas. On writing: "The > ideal literary sentence may be born of imagination or experience, but > it must gauge its imagination within its experience and its > experience within its imagination." > > further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic > ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in > different ways. > > it looks like harrison reached into her stock of technical terms and > pulled out a wrong (but semantically related) one. Well, chiastic constructions like "its imagination within its experience and its experience within its imagination" vaguely resemble "word palindromes" -- typical examples of which include: So patient a doctor to doctor a patient so. Girl, bathing on Bikini, eyeing boy, finds boy eyeing bikini on bathing girl. You can cage a swallow, can't you, but you can't swallow a cage, can you? Bores are people that say that people are bores. Women understand men; few men understand women. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 11 18:06:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:06:54 -0700 Subject: palindromic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On 10/11/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> ... further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic >> ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in >> different ways. > Well, chiastic constructions like "its imagination within its > experience and its experience within its imagination" vaguely resemble > "word palindromes" -- typical examples of which include:... i was expanding on this posting for Language Log on just this point. now i've cribbed your examples. with credit. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 20:50:49 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:50:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710111546.l9BAkJ5k013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So, that "explanation" was most likely pulled out of his PR man's ass and I fell for it. Played like a piano. -Wilson On 10/11/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/11/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, > > when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," > > replied that his stage name represents change. > > Well, that's more pleasant than his other explanation, which is that > it's an homage to the notorious triggerman Kelvin "50 Cent" Martin... > > ----- > http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=1112 > Nobody, including family and friends, seems to know exactly how Martin > acquired the name 50 Cent. Some say he earned it in a dice game, after > he walked away with a cool $500 after an initial wager of 50 cents. > Others suspect it was because of his five-foot-three, 120-pound frame. > "He was a short guy," says 50's former criminal cohort One Arm Monk, > who fenced all the bling 50 stole. "He was little." > [...] > The pitiless mastermind of countless homicides, 50 Cent's reputation > far outweighed the money he made, and his legacy lives on through > folklore as well as through the music and imagery of Curtis "50 Cent" > Jackson. "I took the name 50 Cent because it says everything I want it > to say. I'm the same kind of person 50 Cent was. I provide for myself > by any means," says Jackson. > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 23:35:21 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:35:21 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111336.l9BAkJqU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit >of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, >occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be >worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than >it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, >demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; >place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these >glasses into the dishwasher." I do apologize. In my late-evening scan of the email, I failed to notice the irony in your missive to the museum. Of course, I'm sure that you, probably even more than the rest of us here, know about irony and other pragmatic effects. I merely raised it because I was wondering about the actual relative frequency with which politeness forms are used not ironically but with a forced formality coming from social distancing for negative rather than positive reasons. I can see I should simply have gone and dug up references on it and not bothered anyone here with the question. But I was hoping to learn further on the subject from those here who have more grounding in it than I have. Clearly I should have broached the subject in a slightly different style -- again the style of discourse used on other lists seems not to be quite right for this one. My apologies. WRT to inane dissertations: As far as I can tell, not only English but all the humanities are riddled with them. I wish I could be surprised that many in linguistics are also inane, but given the number of deadweight tenure books coming out in the humanities and social sciences serving no real value other than padding library shelves and CVs, it would seem the dissertations are often just a practice round of the same. > Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the >often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every >week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the >game. Some of them might also just be a bit too thin-skinned to take the vigorous discourse that sometimes goes on. > The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of >dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. Since I know you have a well-developed understanding of irony, I know that the irony in the above statement (being upset by disrespect but using a disrespectful term) was also intended. I do find this list refreshing in that it's just about the only place I can go where I'm not treated like the smartest person in the room. But of course since I as yet lack graduate training in linguistics (my PhD is in one of those humanities fields), I naturally expect corrections and upbraidings here, and that's why I pipe up. It's a good education! Now I must go actually look and see what research there is on the prevalence of non-ironic negative-toned uses of politeness forms. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 12 00:21:48 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:21:48 -0500 Subject: OT (sort of): French youth-speak known as "Verlan" Message-ID: Today a colleague drew my attention to French "Verlan" (derives from "l'envers" = "the reverse," and I immediately thought of the word-play that goes on in English (Cockney back slang, e.g. "yob" = boy, Cockney rhyming slang, Pig Latin, etc.). A comparative study along this line might be interesting. Below my signoff is a relevant link. Gerald Cohen USA TODAY Powered by Click the following to access the sent link: USATODAY.com - French youths speaking their own language * SAVE THIS link FORWARD THIS link Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email information from any Web site. *This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste the entire address below into your web browser. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-01-05-french-slang_x.htm?POE=click-refer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 12 00:22:18 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:22:18 -0500 Subject: OT: More Verlan (NY Times article) Message-ID: For those interested, here's another item. Gerald Cohen [Top ] New York Times Discovers 'Verlan' Backward Runs French. Reels the Mind. August 17, 2002 By ALEXANDER STILLE, New York Times Those who have studied French but haven't been in France for a while may find themselves confused when they overhear conversations that sound familiar but remain largely incomprehensible. Gradually they may realize, or some kind soul may explain, that what they are hearing is a popular slang called Verlan in which standard French spellings or syllables are reversed or recombined, or both. Thus the standard greeting "Bonjour, ça va?" or "Good day, how are you?" becomes "Jourbon, ça av?" "Une fête" (a party) has become "une teuf"; the word for woman or wife, femme, has become meuf; a café has become féca; and so on. The word Verlan itself is a Verlanization of the term l'envers, meaning "the reverse." Within a couple of decades, Verlan has spread from the peripheral housing projects of France 's poorest immigrants, heavily populated with Africans and North African Arabs, and gained widespread popularity among young people across France . It has seeped into film dialogue, advertising campaigns, French rap and hip-hop music, the mainstream media. It has even made it into some of the country's leading dictionaries. A language of alienation that has, paradoxically, also become a means of integration, Verlan expresses France 's love-hate relationship with its immigrant community and has begun to attract a number of scholarly studies. "Speaking backwards becomes a metaphor of opposition, of talking back," writes Natalie Lefkowitz, a professor of French applied linguistics at Central Washington University in Ellensburg , Wash. , and the author of "Talking Backwards, Looking Forwards: The French Language Game Verlan" (Gunter Narr, 1991), which, when it was published, was one of the first major studies of Verlan. But along with its subversive element, Ms. Lefkowitz explained in an interview, "for the young urban professional, Verlan is a form of political correctness expressing solidarity with and awareness of the immigrant community at a time of anti-immigrant politics." The first documented uses of Verlan date to the 19th century, when it was used as a code language among criminals, said the French scholar Louis-Jean Calvet. But the current and most widespread use of Verlan has its origins in the growth of France 's banlieues, the peripheral areas outside major cities, where the government built high-rise housing for its immigrant worker population after World War II. In the 1960's and 70's, many North African workers were joined there by their wives and families. "This housing that was supposed to be temporary, and was built intentionally apart from the mainstream society, became permanent," said Meredith Doran, an assistant professor of French applied linguistics at Penn State University, who recently finished a dissertation on the culture and language of the French banlieues. Their inhabitants also call a banlieue "la Cité", which has been Verlanized into "la Téci." Verlan caught on among the second generation of immigrants who were living between cultures. "They were born in France and often did not speak Arabic," Ms. Lefkowitz said, "but they did not feel integrated into France ." Ms. Doran explained, "Verlan was a way of their establishing their language and their own distinct identity." The term beur, which is a Verlanization of the French word Arabe, refers specifically to the second- and third-generation North Africans. Until recently, there was even a radio station of French North Africans called Radio Beur. "Verlan has many functions," writes Vivienne Méla, an anthropologist who teaches at the University of Paris VIII , in a recent article called "Verlan 2000." "Initially, it was a secret language that allowed people to speak about illicit activities without being understood. And while Verlan conserves this function, its principal function is for young people to express both their difference and their attachment to a French identity. They have invented a culture that is in between the culture of their parents, which they no longer possess, and the French culture to which they don't have complete access." Verlan, however, is also widely spoken by the other immigrant groups of the banlieues, mainly sub-Saharan Africans and Caribbean blacks. And Verlan, along with reversing syllables and words, has also incorporated terms from Creole, Arabic, Rom (the language of the Gypsies) and American slang to create a kind of speech of the disenfranchised. "Verlan serves as an interface between these different groups who do not have a common language," said Alain Rey, one of the editors of the Petit Robert dictionary, the first of the standard dictionaries to incorporate a number of Verlan terms. More than just reversing words, scholars say, Verlan reverses what have traditionally been regarded as negative qualities in France - ethnic and religious differences, non-French identity, nonstandard speech - and turns them into positive attributes that are consciously cultivated. "In a country obsessed with linguistic purity, it turns a stigma into a positive emblem, a form of covert prestige," Ms. Lefkowitz said. Verlanizing words, she and others say, changes their tone and meaning. "When you say téci for cité, it is a way of expressing affection, like saying homeland," she added. Verlan, in the views of Mr. Rey and others, is also a playful way for the French to forge a language for dealing with ethnic, racial and religious differences. The Verlanized words for Arab, black or Jew "allow you to mark racial and culture differences without insulting people," Ms. Lefkowitz said. But Leyla Habane, a Moroccan-French university student who provided research assistance when Ms. Doran was working on her dissertation, is leery of that interpretation. "I think these terms can be pejorative in any form," she said, although she admitted that they could also be used playfully. Perhaps because it has been so widely adopted by most French, she finds the term beur offensive. But there is no question that Verlan is used to discuss race, ethnicity and other taboo subjects. In one recent study, the French scholars Jean-Luc Azra and Véronique Cheneau, both of the University of Paris VIII , documented about 350 Verlan terms, which tended to be clustered around a handful of subjects: illegal activities like theft and drugs; race, ethnicity and national origin; and taboo topics like sex, as well as everyday objects on the street and in the subway. Verlan was discovered by mainstream French in the 1980's after a series of major riots and confrontations with police brought the problems of la Cité to the attention of most French. "These riots put a spotlight on the youth subculture of the banlieus, and that's when everybody noticed that these youths had this language of their own," Ms. Doran said. A series of books and films about life in the banlieues followed, bringing Verlan to the attention of a wider public. The 1995 movie "La Haine" ("Hate"), about the lives of three housing-project friends, with much of its dialogue in Verlan, was a revelation to many French, though some found parts of it incomprehensible. Also very popular was a film thriller called "Les Ripoux," which is a Verlanization of the French word pourri, meaning rotten. Ripoux has become a common term for corrupt police officers. Verlan became so popular that even former French President François Mitterrand showed off his knowledge of it during a television interview several years ago. When he was asked whether he knew the word chébran (Verlan for branché, which means hip), he answered, "of course", but added, "That's already passé; you should say câblé," which literally means "wired for cable," but means "plugged in" or with-it in current slang. Ms. Lefkowitz explained: "There are now different kinds of Verlan. There is the Verlan of the original group, the working class immigrants from the banlieus. Then there is the Verlan of the urban professionals, bourgeois Verlan or `Verlan geoisbour.' There is also the Verlan of the teenagers who use it to distinguish themselves from the adult word as a game and a form of amusement." The appropriation of Verlan by mainstream French culture is viewed with some uneasiness by those in the banlieues. "They find it annoying," Ms. Habane said. "They feel it is their language, and now they want to take this from us, too." As a result, Verlan keeps renewing so that the speech of la Cité stays a step ahead of geoisbour Verlan. Many terms have also been "reverlanized." Beur, Ms. Habane said, now that it has been widely adopted by the French, is sometimes seen as pejorative, with many North African speakers using the term reub, which is beur itself turned inside out. As a Frenchwoman of Moroccan descent pursuing a university degree, Ms. Habane expressed mixed feelings about Verlan. "I worry that it creates a kind of linguistic gap between these young people and the rest of the world that can become a trap," she said. "When I speak to some kids in my neighborhood, they often don't understand me." And while the emulation of Verlan and banlieue culture might be flattering, she worries about recent polls showing that a majority of French feel that there are too many Arabs in the country. Whatever the case, Verlan has made its mark on the language, said Mr. Rey, the lexicographer. "Many of them have become so common, they are not even thought of as Verlan," he said, and their proliferation in newspapers and novels has forced Le Petit Robert to include many Verlan terms in its most recent editions, to the annoyance of purists at the Académie française, whose dictionary has resisted. "We feel that a dictionary should reflect the language that is actually spoken," Mr. Rey said. "Besides, I think, on balance, there is much creativity in Verlan, and it shows that the French language is very much alive." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/17/arts/17SLAN.html?ex=1031087009&ei=1&en=bf2d0cb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 12 00:35:27 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:35:27 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The "blog" of "unnecessary" quotes Message-ID: http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 12 01:05:21 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:05:21 -0400 Subject: OT: More Verlan (NY Times article) In-Reply-To: <200710120027.l9BN2SXU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > > For those interested, here's another item. > > Gerald Cohen > > [Top ] New York Times Discovers 'Verlan' Verlan has come up on Language Log from time to time, most recently in this post by Mark Liberman: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004497.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 12 01:37:04 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:37:04 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710112336.l9BNViGk013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Some of them might also just be a bit too thin-skinned to take the >vigorous discourse that sometimes goes on. I've just realized that this may be taken to imply that Dr. Urdang is thin-skinned. I meant no such thing, just for the record! James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 12 03:02:57 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 Message-ID: Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] real widow of his estate." In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, and always of a very ill repute in her country." I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 11 23:55:57 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:55:57 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <470E1504.22965.E3E29F@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hillaryhazelbrown at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 11:08:32 2007 From: hillaryhazelbrown at GMAIL.COM (Hillary Brown) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:08:32 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <200710120843.l9BNVig4013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wenis as penis appears in an episode of the TV show _Mr. Show_ with Bob Odenkirk and David Cross from 1998. The relevant sketch is even up on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCimI9QUtc0 hb On 10/11/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Wenis > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which > seems > >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). > > Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something > interesting here .... > > Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably > with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a > decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real > life). > > "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to > mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably > < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan > Ames. > > "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or > hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I > think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to > give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or > the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about > someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). > > "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. > > I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie > or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've > glanced at by mistake recently. > > Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": > 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search > (e.g.) Google Groups <>. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: > 10/11/2007 9:11 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 11:49:12 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:49:12 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" Message-ID: NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the recent noose news? ... ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas Tailgating is big at UT.) Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/iced_tea1/ ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tailgate_party_or_tailgate_picnic_tailgating/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 12 13:34:06 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:34:06 -0400 Subject: Davy Jones's Locker, 1726 Message-ID: OED has Davy Jones 1751 and Davy Jones's locker 1803 1726, available at Google Books full view and Eighteenth Century Collections Online: The four years voyages of Capt. George Roberts; being a series of uncommon events, which befell him in a voyage to the islands of the Canaries, Cape de Verde, and Barbadoes, from whence he was bound to the coast of Guiney. ... Written by himself, ... London : printed for A. Bettesworth, and J. Osborn, 1726. ESTC Number T056902 Physical Description [6],458p.,plates : map ; 8° Notes Sometimes attributed to Daniel Defoe (Wilson (no firm opinion), Trent, Hutchins, Moore, Novak). Attribution disputed by Furbank and Owens, Defoe de-attributions. Source Library British Library Page 89: ...for he would toss them all into Davy Jones's Locker if they did;.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 12 14:12:25 2007 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <20071011235555.GMJT4814.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: At my day job, we recently completed a short animated film (as a demo for one of our products). One of the characters was originally named "Weenis." The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of "wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of the patch of elbow skin meaning. The name of the character was changed to "Flint" at the last minute when some execs objected to "Weenis." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:23:21 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:23:21 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <20071011235555.GMJT4814.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:55 PM -0400 10/11/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >>to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). > >Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something >interesting here .... > >Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably >with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a >decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in >real life). > >"Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to >mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably >< "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by >Jonathan Ames. If the mangina lives and prospers, why not the wenis? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:27:46 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:27:46 -0700 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born of front-porch sitting ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:40:03 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:40:03 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: And northerners talk fast because they sit uncomfortably on those little stoops . . . . --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to > > ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born of front-porch sitting > >ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 12 15:17:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:17:58 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels In-Reply-To: <20071012104003.HYN07391@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0400 10/12/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >And northerners talk fast because they sit uncomfortably on those >little stoops . . . . > >--Charlie ...and before long we'll be back to the shouting-across-the-Alps explanation of the Grimm's Law sound changes. LH >_____________________________________________________________ >> >>a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on >>gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of >>Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to >> >> ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born >>of front-porch sitting >> >>ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. >> >>arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Oct 12 15:49:43 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:49:43 -0400 Subject: Wenis Message-ID: I'm coming to this thread a little late, having been away from my computer for more than a month (in fact, I'm still away from it, since it is on srike , complaiing of neglect).....but this elbow skin gag reminds me of an old joke about some naive newly-weds who went to a hugely-embarrassed, tongue-tied pastor for advice about how to consummate their marriage and were given such ambiguous advice about the man's part being introduced to the woman's receptacle that they ended up with his elbow in her armpit. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Original Message: ----------------- From: Dave Wilton dave at WILTON.NET Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis At my day job, we recently completed a short animated film (as a demo for one of our products). One of the characters was originally named "Weenis." The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of "wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of the patch of elbow skin meaning. The name of the character was changed to "Flint" at the last minute when some execs objected to "Weenis." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 12 16:12:15 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:12:15 -0500 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121149.l9CArpf5032425@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:49 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > recent noose news? Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. > ... > ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material > to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my > website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas > Tailgating is big at UT.) Note that Barry is referring to the University of Texas when he says "UT". I hope that Jon Lighter and Bethany Dumas (both of whom are on the faculty of the REAL UT -- the University of Tennessee) will agree with me that while Barry is okay in referring to U of Tex as UT when he is in Texas, he should be careful when sending nationwide emails, because most right-thinking people will recognize UT as the one in Knoxville. As they should. > Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th > Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia > to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. "The Navy" _The New York Herald_, (New York, NY) Friday, August 21, 1863; p 1, col E "There are three large iceboxes in the vessel, which are capable of containing about thirty tons of ice, besides stowing away a large quantity of fresh meats, &c. Tanks have been placed in different parts of the vessel, which are to be filled with iced tea and coffee, and in fact everything has been done to make her indeed a "home." " "News" _The Daily Miners' Register_, (Central City, CO) Tuesday, July 21, 1868; Issue 306; p 3, col C "Iced tea with a slice of lemon in it is said to be decidedly ahead of lager." [no title] -_Trenton State Gazette_, published as State Gazette; Date: 02-09-1852; Volume: VI; Issue: 1532; Page: [2]; col 3 "Throughout the summer, ices are sold in the streets of every Russian town; and, not only iced water, iced wine, iced beer, but even iced tea is drank in immense quantities." Bill Mullins Univ of TN at Knoxville, Class of 1985 > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 16:35:04 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:35:04 +0000 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9BN2Shm005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being > transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd > sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in > Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's > widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] > real widow of his estate." > > In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, > and always of a very ill repute in her country." > > I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for > "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 17:02:29 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:02:29 -0500 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710121635.l9CGEu6X031657@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt? I'd be very surprised if someone said "stumpd." Scot > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:35:04 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt?> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400> > From: Berson at ATT.NET> > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson"> > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being> > transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd> > sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in> > Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's> > widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his]> > real widow of his estate."> >> > In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin,> > and always of a very ill repute in her country."> >> > I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for> > "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper".> >> > Joel> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf・. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last.  Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 12 17:30:29 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:30:29 -0400 Subject: "the cat got your tongue?" 1895 In-Reply-To: <20071012093406.ks9b6cnwg0k44wo0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED has 1911 The Atchison Daily Globe, (Atchison, KS) Tuesday, March 26, 1895; pg. 2; Issue 5,404; col D [19th C US Newspapers] City News A Collection of Important Paragraphs for Your Consideration What has become of the old fashioned woman who, when she caught her boy stealing preserves, and asked him for an explanation, said, "Well, has the cat got your tongue?" Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 12 19:42:14 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:42:14 -0700 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9BJpCao005040@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not a misprint but a genuine folk-etymological form? New to me. JL "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] real widow of his estate." In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, and always of a very ill repute in her country." I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 12 19:46:22 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:46:22 -0700 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: ... now posted about, in somewhat expanded form, on Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005015.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 12 20:31:43 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:31:43 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121612.l9CAosAN032316@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/12/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > > recent noose news? > > Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. Or, in a New York context, the hanging of a noose on a black professor's office door at Columbia earlier this week. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/education/12columbia.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 21:48:13 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:48:13 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121612.l9CAosAN032316@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember it in the form, "No noose is good news" as a graffito on the wall of a cell in a newspaper cartoon from the 'Forties. In _Grin and Bear It_ by George "Lichty" Lichtenstein, perhaps, and in any number of other cartoons by any number of other cartoonists. -Wilson On 10/12/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:49 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > > > > > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > > recent noose news? > > Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. > > > > ... > > ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material > > to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my > > website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas > > Tailgating is big at UT.) > > Note that Barry is referring to the University of Texas when he says > "UT". I hope that Jon Lighter and Bethany Dumas (both of whom are on > the faculty of the REAL UT -- the University of Tennessee) will agree > with me that while Barry is okay in referring to U of Tex as UT when he > is in Texas, he should be careful when sending nationwide emails, > because most right-thinking people will recognize UT as the one in > Knoxville. As they should. > > > Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th > > Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia > > to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. > > > "The Navy" _The New York Herald_, (New York, NY) Friday, August 21, > 1863; p 1, col E > "There are three large iceboxes in the vessel, which are capable of > containing > about thirty tons of ice, besides stowing away a large quantity of fresh > meats, &c. > Tanks have been placed in different parts of the vessel, which are to be > filled with > iced tea and coffee, and in fact everything has been done to make her > indeed a > "home." " > > "News" _The Daily Miners' Register_, (Central City, CO) Tuesday, July > 21, 1868; Issue 306; p 3, col C > "Iced tea with a slice of lemon in it is said to be decidedly ahead of > lager." > > [no title] -_Trenton State Gazette_, published as State Gazette; Date: > 02-09-1852; Volume: VI; Issue: 1532; Page: [2]; col 3 > "Throughout the summer, ices are sold in the streets of every Russian > town; and, not only iced > water, iced wine, iced beer, but even iced tea is drank in immense > quantities." > > Bill Mullins > Univ of TN at Knoxville, Class of 1985 > > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 22:38:19 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:38:19 -0400 Subject: "No noose is good news" (1870) Message-ID: No news is good news. James Howell, _Familiar Letters, 3 June 1640. --_Yale Book of Quotations_ (2006), pg. 617. ... ... 11 December 1866, Waukesha (WI) Plaindealer, pg. 4, col. 1: The Boston _Post_ says: "Hanging a priest and a reporter will not obliterate Fenianism." It evidently forgets that a reporter cannot be hanged. Where would they get the _noose_? (news.) ... 13 January 1870, Decatur (IL) Republican, pg. 1, col. 1: To the condemned man no noose is good news. ... 4 April 1872, Iowa State Reporter (Waterloo, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 4: No noose is good news, as the man said when he was reprieved. ... 13 April 1872, Portsmouth (OH) Times, pg. 1, col. 8: To the condemned man no noose is good news. ... 12 September 1882, Chicago (IL) Daily Trobune, pg. ?: Mr. Tracey is beginning to think that no noose is good noose. ... 17 October 1894, Monroe (WI) Evening Times, pg. 4, col. 1: When lynchings are finally suppressed no noose will be good news. ... 13 June 1895, Brooklyn (NY) Daily Eagle, pg. 6: No noose is good news to him. As the rope here has given way to the electric chair, the foregoing remark is withdrawn. ... 8 May 1912, Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, WI), "Notes by the Funny Men," pg. 7, col. 2: "I have held a reprieve for you from the home secretary," said the governor of the prison to the callous murderer. "Ah!" replied the latter, "No noose is good news, as the proverb says." ... 17 April 1926, Logansport (IN) Morning Press, pg. 4, col. 4: CHAIRMAN--What, Mr. Tinder, would you deem an ideal penalty for those who flaunt the Volstead law? TINDER--Hanging for first offense. CHAIRMAN--What? Hanging for first offenders? TINDER--Yes. hanging! No noose is good noose without a penalty like that. ... 13 April 1927, Coshocton (OH) Tribune, pg. 6, col. 6: _As He Left the Pen_ "No noose is good noose," said the pardoned murderer. -- Cornell Widow. ... 1 June 1928, Kingsport (TN) Times, "Jokes," pg. 4, col. 3: Counsel (to condemned)--You are not going to be hanged after all. Killer--No noose is good news. ... 27 January 1930, Tyrone (PA) Daily Herald, pg. 6, col. 6: _Getting the Hang of It_ "Even the bluest of the bluebloods," says the warden of Sing Sing prison, "cannot trace their ancestry far back without encountering the gallows or a prison." In studying the family tree no noose is good news.--South Bend Tribune. ... 25 June 1930, Charleston (WV) Gazette, pg. 6, col. 5: _Or Hanged_ Montgomery News One is being told of the fellow that was about to be hung. Just as the trap was about to be sprung a message was received granting him a reprieve. Hearing the message he remarked: "No noose is good noose." And they hanged him anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 12 22:49:17 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:49:17 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] Louisiana vow els Message-ID: In a message dated 10/12/07 3:46:49 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > >    http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005015.html > Wonderful, Arnold! I would add only that, when students object that specific linguistic changes MUST have a particular explanation--that language change cannot be random--I ask them why it rained yesterday and not today. It seems to me that folk wisdom actually has a fairly well-developed sense of the random nature of some phenomena (e.g., in addition to the weather, the sudden appearance of a giant number of gnats that recently changed the course of baseball history; "just not getting the cards" at poker; meeting the love of one's life in Bora-Bora). ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 12 23:45:39 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:45:39 -0400 Subject: "bloodymindedness 1690 (antedates OED2 1789) Message-ID: If any slave, by punishment from the owner for running away or other offence, shall suffer in life or limb, no person shall be liable to the law for the same; but if any one out of wilfulness, wantoness, or bloody mindedness, shall kill a slave, he or she, upon due conviction thereof, shall suffer three months imprisonment, without bail or mainprize, and also pay the sum of fifty pounds to the owner of such slave. The Statutes at Large of South Carolina: Edited, under Authority of the Legislature, by David J. McCord (1840: Printed by A. S. Johnson), VII. 346. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 13 01:43:22 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:43:22 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <00b001c80cd9$eaeac4b0$6701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: >The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of >"wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of >the patch of elbow skin meaning. A student at the local high school informs me that the elbow-skin word is current at the school, but only used by a few students (who use it a lot). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1067 - Release Date: 10/12/2007 6:02 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 01:47:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710121702.l9CGEuAP031657@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Come again? m a m On 10/12/07, Scot LaFaive wrote: > > > PiBIb3cgZG8gQW1lcmljYW5zIHNheSAic3R1bXBlZD8iIH5zdHVtcGQgb3IgfnN0dW1wdD8NCkkn > > ZCBiZSB2ZXJ5IHN1cnByaXNlZCBpZiBzb21lb25lIHNhaWQgInN0dW1wZC4iDQogDQpTY290DQoN > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 01:50:28 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:50:28 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: That's a good reply, Ron; I'll have to remember it. m a m On 10/12/07, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > Wonderful, Arnold! I would add only that, when students object that > specific > linguistic changes MUST have a particular explanation--that language > change > cannot be random--I ask them why it rained yesterday and not today. It > seems > to me that folk wisdom actually has a fairly well-developed sense of the > random > nature of some phenomena (e.g., in addition to the weather, the sudden > appearance of a giant number of gnats that recently changed the course of > ba > seball history; "just not getting the cards" at poker; meeting the love of > one's life in > Bora-Bora). > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Oct 13 03:29:07 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is from the New-York evening Post, mid-October, 1825: Yesterday morning a well dressed female with her servant behind her, stepping up to a huckster in Washington Market enquired whether she had "any peaches proper for sweetmeats?" "No, aunty, but I guess you may get some of that there lady with a pipe in her mouth, what sits opposite, and sells them savoy cabbages and blue nose potatoes." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 13 16:42:24 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:42:24 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" Message-ID: In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory whistle is going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc. In evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!" Pretty scary, no? The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design statement that screams innovation." And they mean that in a good way. This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats. Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say," "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intended, Blacula fans). So you get "scream." JL --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Oct 13 17:07:32 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:07:32 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" In-Reply-To: <18815.51933.qm@web53911.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a > factory whistle is going off next to your ear, you're in space and > nobody can hear you, etc. In evidence, I submit to you the film > title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), which was meant to > suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line "The > Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!" Pretty scary, no? > > The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their > new laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's > "a design statement that screams innovation." > And they mean that in a good way. > > This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats. i don't think the usage is particularly recent or largely a matter of advertising, google on {"fairly screams"} for more examples. NOAD2 says screaming expresses "excitement, great emotion, or pain", which strikes me as pretty much right. in any case, not necessarily negative. but *loud*, which is what "fairly screams" and similar expressions pick up on. older uses of "scream" are still available. and i can't see how anyone could misunderstand the figure in uses that have inanimate objects screaming (or shouting; {"fairly shouts"} nets a considerable number of hits). it looks like pretty routine figurative language to me. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sat Oct 13 19:31:32 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:31:32 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam Message-ID: In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least the ones searchable via Linguistlist) Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 13 19:38:45 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:38:45 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0_[ADS-L]_semantic_drif_t:=A0?= "scream" Message-ID: On the other hand, somebody might just say that this is a slightly metaphorical use and not a sign that advertising is destroying the language. As my grandmother said a hundred years ago, "You scream, I scream--We all scream for ice cream." In a message dated 10/13/07 12:42:37 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory whistle is > going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc.  In > evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), > which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line > "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!"  Pretty scary, no? > >   The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new > laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design statement > that screams innovation." >   And they mean that in a good way. > >   This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats.  > Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say," > "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intended, > Blacula fans). > >   So you get "scream." > >   JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Oct 13 19:40:34 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:40:34 -0700 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131931.l9DAkWqe002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB Geoff Nathan wrote: > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some > of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or > two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least > the ones searchable via Linguistlist) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 13 19:52:12 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:52:12 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Friday the Thirteenth (1869, 1880) Message-ID: Barry Popik has taken the popular understanding of Friday the 13th as a day of ill-boding back to 1898. It seems to go back at least to the early 1880s, where I saw several examples. Here's the earliest, from 1880, plus a passage from 1869 that seems to show the superstition in its formative period. Might the 1880 passage also be an antedating of the black cat superstition? 45 Appletons' Journal 256 (Mar. 1880) (Making of America): Everybody knows the state of mind which, as superstitious folk hold, precedes some great calamity. The victim is foolishly, childishly, recklessly confident and happy; he disregards those warnings which used to play so large a part in the lives of our ancestors: magpies, black-cats, crows, hares, run across his path unheeded; screech-owls hoot and he hears them not; brindled cats mew and he only laughs; knives are crossed, salt is spilled, dreams are told before breakfast, and he recks not; the visions of the night have brought him squalling babies, and he forgets them; he stumbles at the threshold and thinks nothing of it; the day is Friday, the thirteenth, and he regards it not; every kind of miraculous warning is lavished upon that man, and he goes on to his doom, laughing and careless. Sutherland Edwards, The Life of Rossini 340 (1869) (Google Books full text): He [sc. Rossini] was surrounded to the last by admiring and affectionate friends; and if it be true that, like so many other Italians, he regarded Friday as an unlucky day, and thirteen as an unlucky number, it is remarkable that on Friday, the 13th of November, he died. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 20:55:57 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:55:57 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131940.l9DAkWHj027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and straightforward step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' [a subject]. m a m On 10/13/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the > default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it > actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB > > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 21:40:12 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:40:12 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? Message-ID: In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Oct 13 21:39:45 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:39:45 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710132056.l9DAkWss002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't say whether I've heard it, but in context for me it would not be strikingly odd. "Go over" would be more normal in the parts of Canada I've been educated (Alberta and Ontario), but "take up" would be understood and probably not remarked on, I'd say. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 13 21:42:34 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:42:34 +0000 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10710131355g623d3947u3faefff4aa6fdf12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The only way I have ever used it is as a synonym for "collect" Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Mark Mandel Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:55:57 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Taking up an exam Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and straightforward step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' [a subject]. m a m On 10/13/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the > default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it > actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB > > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 23:51:43 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:51:43 -0400 Subject: "hangnail": an eighteenth-century eggcorn Message-ID: This is the latest version of a word that's been around, and mutating, at least since the 10th century. The OED says: >>>>> hang-nail [f. HANG v. + NAIL; but historically an accommodated form of angnail; cf. AGNAIL 3.] A small piece of epidermis partially detached, but hanging by one end, near to a nail. <<<<< Their etymology of "agnail" (defs below) starts with the delicious peeve "A word of which the application (and perhaps the form) has been much perverted by pseudo-etymology". In Old and Middle English (1) it meant 'a corn on the toe or foot', the "nail" part having "the sense, not of 'finger-nail,' unguis, but of a nail (of iron, etc.) clavus, hence, a hard round-headed excrescence fixed in the flesh". But at least by the late 1500s (2) it had gotten associated with finger- and toenails, and from there it was got eggcorned (3) into its present pronunciation and meaning. >>>>> agnail 1. A corn on the toe or foot. Obs. 2. Any 'painful swelling,' 'ulcer,' or 'sore,' under, about, around the toe- or finger-nail; in J. and subseq. Dicts. identified with whitlow. [This change of explanation seems due to pseudo-etymology; whether confusion with Fr. angonailles 'botches, (pocky) bumps, or sores', or med.L. anghiones, anguinalia 'carbuncles' contributed the 'ulcers' or 'sores' is uncertain; but -nail, misinterpreted, fixed the locality. The further identification with whitlow (in the Dicts.) seems due to collating the Gr. name of the latter paronukhia (f. parh 'beside' + onykh- 'nail') with ag-nail (quasi ag- 'at' + nail). Ash explains agnail as 'a whitlow, paronychia,' and paronychia as 'a perpetual sore under the root of the nail, a whitlow.'] 3. A 'hang-nail'; see quot. [Hang-nail, given by Halliwell as a dialect word, is evidently like the Sc. equivalent anger-nail (ANGER = irritation, inflammation), a corruption of ang-nail, putting a plausible meaning into it. That is, ang-nail, dialectally pronounced hang-nail, was explained as 'hanging' or detached nail. This explanation of agnail appears first in Bailey 1737 (ed. 1736 having only sense 2); the form hang-nail is in Craig 1847, and is now commoner in London than agnail.] <<<<< m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 14 00:33:08 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:33:08 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9C33Lw5021247@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being >transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd >sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in >Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's >widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] >real widow of his estate." > >In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, >and always of a very ill repute in her country." > >I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for >"strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". I suppose maybe it's just "strumpet" ... with misprint or otherwise. At Early American Newspapers, I see in _American Weekly Mercury_, 19-26 Aug. 1736, "from the Boston Gazette, of Aug. 16", a comparable passage: <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: 10/13/2007 7:26 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 14 00:50:41 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:50:41 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710132143.l9DAkWNF027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was thinking of uses like these: - "He took up philately after he retired." - "That covers the holiday committee's business. Shall we take up the redecoration issue next?" m a m On 10/13/07, ronbutters at aol.com wrote: > > The only way I have ever used it is as a synonym for "collect" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Mandel > > Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and > straightforward > step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' > [a > subject]. > > [ ...] > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian > and > > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 14 01:27:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:27:35 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <20071014003309.LDUZ7709.mta15.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately, Doug's is not a second instance; his is the same 1736 newspaper article that I cited, from the American Weekly Mercury. The Aug. 16 issue of the Boston Gazette that is credited by the AMW is not extant. Joel At 10/13/2007 08:33 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being >>transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd >>sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in >>Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's >>widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] >>real widow of his estate." >> >>In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, >>and always of a very ill repute in her country." >> >>I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for >>"strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". > >I suppose maybe it's just "strumpet" ... with misprint or otherwise. > >At Early American Newspapers, I see in _American Weekly Mercury_, >19-26 Aug. 1736, "from the Boston Gazette, of Aug. 16", a comparable >passage: <a Common Strumpet in Dublin, and always of ill repute, and personated >Mr. Buckler's Widow ...>>. > >-- Doug Wilson > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: >10/13/2007 7:26 PM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 14 06:15:51 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:15:51 -0400 Subject: Frings (French Fries + Onion Rings) (1979) Message-ID: FRINGS + FRIES + ONION RINGS--9,220 Google Hits ... I just added an entry for "frings" (french fries + onion rings). I'd noticed "frings" on the menus of several restaurants here in Austin (such as Shady Grove on Barton Springs' restaurant row). ... "Frings" was trademarked by Jack in the Box in 1979, but it now appears to be generic, with a large number of hits all over North America. OED should consider having "frings." Pre-1980 citations (check FACTIVA) are welcome. ... Why is "frings" in my Texas section? Well, "onion rings" were invented at the Pig Stand drive-ins in Texas. "French fries," as we all know, were invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, when someone from the New York Tribune asked Fletcher Davis where he got his potato recipe, and Davis replied "Paris" (Texas), and the reporter thought it was Paris, France... ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/frings_french_fries_onion_rings/ ... Entry from October 14, 2007 Frings (French Fries + Onion Rings) "Frings" are orders of half french fries and half onion rings. The "frings" name was trademarked by Jack in the Box (a hamburger chain popular in California and Texas) in 1979, but Jack in the Box discontinued the item. Other fast food chains and restaurants (especially in California and Texas) have "frings" on their menus. Runzia's (of Nebraska) website claims a trademark on "frings," but trademark records show a first use of 2002 and a "Dead" trademark status. Ruby's Diner (of California) has a "frings" trademark claim from 1992. Jack In The Box: Jack Facts Gone, but not forgotten, Jack in the Box has a few renowned menu items that have gone the way of mood rings and shag carpeting, including a fish sandwich called the Moby Jack, introduced in 1970, and Frings, a combination of onion rings and french fries, introduced in 1979. A.Word.A.Day AWADmail Issue 98 August 27, 2003 (...) Interesting choice for this week's theme. One in particular that I remember is one that, thankfully, never caught on in our language. Several years ago, the fast food chain Jack-in-the-Box started selling a side order of both French fries and onion rings, together in the same package. They dubbed this culinary combination "Frings". The idea did not catch on, and "Frings" went the way of McDonald's' Arch Deluxe. Thankfully so! -Dale Roberts (drobertsATcasarino.com) Wikipedia: Jack in the Box Jack in the Box (NYSE: JBX) is an American fast-food restaurant founded in 1951. In total, the chain has 2,100 locations in 17 U.S. states, mostly in the western half of the country. Most of the outlets are in California (900), followed by Texas (560), Arizona (165), and Washington (132) (...) In 1999, Foodmaker Inc., the corporate name of Jack in the Box, was renamed to fit its core brand. Runza Frings(r) - Fries and Rings together! Wikipedia: Harvey's Harvey's is a fast food restaurant chain that operates in Canada, with locations concentrated in southern and eastern Ontario, southern Quebec, the Maritimes, and urban Alberta. It serves hamburgers, hot dogs, french fries, onion rings, and other traditional fast food fare. (...) One of Harvey's most famous promotional menu items was Frings, a specially designed french fry box that's half-full of french fries and half-full of onion rings. Shady Grove (Austin, TX) Frings A generous basket of french fries and onion rings. Lakeway Resort and Spa (Austin, TX) All sandwich board items come with a choice of: French Fries, Onion Rings, Frings, Cole Slaw, Homemade Potato Chips or Potato Salad EZ's (Austin, TX) If you get the frings (half fries, half onion rings), you have to be sure to tell them to include the chipotle sauce. It's delicious, especially mixed with ketchup. Freddie's (Austin, TX) frings (can't decide...get some of both) Sammie's Bar-B-Q (Fort Worth, TX) Frings (Combination Fries and Onion Rings) Lg $2.95 Park Classic Diner (PA & OH) Frings If one is good, two is better! Classic Park Fries and onion rings served together! They´re crispy, crispy, and crunchy, crunchy, too! Ruby's Diner (various states) FRINGS A combination basket of our Fit Fries and RubyRings for the very hungry and indecisive. Fuddruckers (various states) Onion Rings or Frings Cheeburger Cheeburger (various states) Frings Basket: the best of both worlds! a combination of our famous fries and rings. Green Eggs and Ham Cafe (Disneyworld) Frings (1/2 fries, 1/2 rings) $2.79 Google Groups:alt.tv.star-trek.voyager Newsgroups: alt.tv.star-trek.voyager From: "John Ro" Date: 2000/01/05 Subject: Re: I Love You, Jack In The Box >I remember their tacos, they were good. Hey, do they still have >"Frings"? (half French Fries, half onion rings) Frings may have had a name change. Curly Fries have been on the menu for a number of years now - French Fries all curled up to look like onion rings, but no real onions in them. Google Groups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc From: Stephen Cooke Date: 2000/03/24 Subject: Re: OTP: His Finest (Quarter) Hour Here we go, a Harvey's flame-broiled war… (...) Plus, you can get Frings! (A mix of fries and rings) Google Groups: ba.food Newsgroups: ba.food From: a... at bayarea.net (Asya Kamsky) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:53:14 +0000 (UTC) Local: Thurs, May 17 2001 4:53 pm Subject: new burger place in San Mateo The menu also has salads, and sides like fries, onion rings and frings (combo of the two). (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: French Fries and Onion Rings for Consumption On or Off the Premises. FIRST USE: 19790802. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19790802 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 05.11.01 - Beets; Carrots; Parsnips; Potatoes 08.01.09 - Bagels; Doughnuts (donuts) 08.13.25 - Eggroll; Enchiladas; Potato chips; Potato chips; Rice; Salt; Snack foods; Sugar cubes; Tortilla chips 27.03.05 - Objects forming letters or numerals Serial Number 73236310 Filing Date October 22, 1979 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 22, 1981 Registration Number 1182338 Registration Date December 15, 1981 Owner (REGISTRANT) Foodmaker, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 9330 Balboa Ave. San Diego CALIFORNIA 92123 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record BABETTE D. KAMM Disclaimer Applicant disclaims the representation of an onion ring and a French fried potato apart from the mark as shown; however, applicant waives none of its common law rights therein. Description of Mark The stippling in the drawing is for shading only and does not represent color. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date September 21, 2002 (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: Onion rings and french fries for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19920101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920101 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78230704 Filing Date March 27, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 18, 2007 Owner (APPLICANT) Ruby's Diner, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 660 Newport Center DriveSuite 850 Newport Beach CALIFORNIA 92660 Attorney of Record Edward A. Schlatter Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: French fries and onion rings for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 20020301. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020301 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76428415 Filing Date July 9, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition January 28, 2003 Registration Number 2709225 Registration Date April 22, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Runza National, Inc. CORPORATION NEBRASKA 5931 South 58th St., P.O. Box 6042 Lincoln NEBRASKA 68506 Attorney of Record Alan D. Slattery Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date March 6, 2007 (Trademark) Word Mark WINGS "N" FRINGS Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES, NAMELY, CHICKEN WINGS, FRIES AND ONION RINGS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78217774 Filing Date February 21, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Duke, Mike H INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 2731 Whispering Fern Court Kingwood TEXAS 77345 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 9, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 14 14:15:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:15:20 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? Message-ID: What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of colonial sources have been modernized.") The days are short, the weather's cold By tavern fires tales are told Some ask for dram when first come in Others with flip or bounce begin. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 14 18:01:03 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:01:03 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl Message-ID: Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and searched Google a little. Not much luck. The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in 1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't find out why. Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with answer, but defer to the scholars on here. Sam Clements PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the 30's. Maybe he knows. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 14 18:04:28 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:04:28 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl Message-ID: That would be "Annie Goodwin." As a side note, I'm not interested in girls who made cigarettes in factories in the 1800s sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: cigarette girl Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and searched Google a little. Not much luck. The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in 1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't find out why. Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with answer, but defer to the scholars on here. Sam Clements PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the 30's. Maybe he knows. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 14 19:21:05 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:21:05 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl In-Reply-To: <000601c80e8c$2f9c1e70$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 2:01 PM -0400 10/14/07, Sam Clements wrote: >Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the >doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. > >But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and >searched Google a little. Not much luck. > >The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, >with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. > >Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in >1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't >find out why. > >Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with >answer, but defer to the scholars on here. > >Sam Clements > >PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the >30's. Maybe he knows. > Well, it is too bad my mother isn't around to get some history from. She did indeed work as a cigarette girl (complete with final -e!) for many years in the 1930s. Of course the term was already well-established by then, not to mention the profession. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 20:15:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:15:59 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710131938.l9DAkWqu002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, Blacula, Speak"? I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" No semantic drift there, but I bet I'm picking up more than was implied. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20[ADS-L]=20semantic=20drif? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?t:=A0=20"scream"?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the other hand, somebody might just say that this is a slightly=20 metaphorical use and not a sign that advertising is destroying the language.= As my=20 grandmother said a hundred years ago, "You scream, I scream--We all scream f= or ice=20 cream." In a message dated 10/13/07 12:42:37 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling=20 > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory=20= whistle is=20 > going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc.= =A0 In=20 > evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973= ),=20 > which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the li= ne=20 > "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!"=A0 Pretty scary, no? >=20 > =A0 The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new=20 > laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design st= atement=20 > that screams innovation." > =A0 And they mean that in a good way. >=20 > =A0 This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats.= =A0=20 > Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say= ,"=20 > "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intend= ed,=20 > Blacula fans). >=20 > =A0 So you get "scream." >=20 > =A0 JL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >=20 >=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 20:19:26 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:19:26 -0700 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131931.l9DAkWHB027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard of it. JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: Taking up an exam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least the ones searchable via Linguistlist) Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 14 20:29:24 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:29:24 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <92940.50833.qm@web53901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, > Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually > challenging nobody is saying that. as i said before, the older uses of "scream" are still available. just because a new use becomes available doesn't mean that the old ones have been supplanted, and the context makes it perfectly clear when literal screaming is intended and when the screaming is figurative. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 14 22:18:35 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:18:35 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? In-Reply-To: <200710141415.l9EEFZAJ016070@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type >of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that >might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a >tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of >colonial sources have been modernized.") > >The days are short, the weather's cold >By tavern fires tales are told >Some ask for dram when first come in >Others with flip or bounce begin. I assume it's short for "cherry bounce" ("cherry-bounce" in my poor-man's OED), i.e., a drink, either cherry brandy (as in OED) or some rum-based concoction (several recipes can be found via Google Books, although none so early as 1704). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 22:56:58 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:56:58 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710142016.l9EB7mWO023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry more of a challenge. The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat camp overtones, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:03:14 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:03:14 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial governments have followed suit." I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) -- which, however, could make _it_ an eggcorn. I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. I can't imagine this one is all that new. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 23:15:39 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:15:39 -0700 Subject: glory Message-ID: OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 14 23:30:12 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:30:12 +0000 Subject: glory Message-ID: Does this ironic sense of "glory" exist apart from the cliche that JL cites here? If not, it seems to me that dictionaries should NOT mention it. And the ironic reading is usu. so clear from context that even listing the fixed phrase might should be given very low priority. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] glory OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 14 23:42:41 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:42:41 +0000 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: I don't understand. My intuition is that "follow suit" is the normal idiom. Never heard "follow suite." ------Original Message------ From: James Harbeck Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: [ADS-L] follow suite >> follow suit Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial governments have followed suit." I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) -- which, however, could make _it_ an eggcorn. I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. I can't imagine this one is all that new. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:44:59 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:44:59 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142304.l9EB7mmw011531@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not otherwise often written down.) So never mind! And now I know why it wasn't mentioned. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 14 23:50:13 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:50:13 -0700 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2007, at 4:03 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" > by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial > governments have followed suit." > > I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its > eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't > make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is > just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling (and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) > -- which, however, could > make _it_ an eggcorn. > > I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. > I can't imagine this one is all that new. this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 23:50:35 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:50:35 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710142257.l9EAkPtH021983@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have suddenly been extinguished. They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not "destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively than I thought. Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice cream they want. JL James Harbeck wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Harbeck Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry more of a challenge. The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat camp overtones, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:54:50 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:54:50 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142350.l9EB7mZg023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling >(and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- >playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) You're right, of course. Somehow I learned that one wrong as a child and have lacked opportunities for correction! Not eggcorn but eggface, as it turns out. > > -- which, however, could >> make _it_ an eggcorn. >> >> I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. >> I can't imagine this one is all that new. > >this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped >variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). Yes, I think that's fair. One less user now, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 14 23:55:55 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:55:55 -0400 Subject: from the "cocked an inquisitive eyebrow" collection Message-ID: Cris Collinsworth on NBC, discussing a big fumble, remarked that "it turned the complete game around", i.e. turned the game completely around. (In an earlier discussion over the summer re "dodged a narrow bullet", Arnold reminded us this is called hypallage or transferred epithets. Somehow it strikes me as especially odd when the adverb transfer to modify a definite, as above.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 15 00:07:49 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:07:49 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I >learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always >understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm >quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative >for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At >any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been >wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, >but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't >people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not >otherwise often written down.) I think "suite" for "suit [of cards etc.]" is simply a variant spelling in modern times. Searching Google Books for <<"follow suit">> gives 1890 items while <<"follow suite">> gives 'only' 415: still far too many for sporadic error, I think. Of course I didn't examine every item, but quick browse indicates that the 'literal' (card-playing, domino-playing) and the 'metaphoric' senses of the phrase both have multiple examples of each spelling ... and both spellings were used 200 years ago ... and both are used currently, in seemingly respectable books. I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Oct 15 00:15:05 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:15:05 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710150007.l9EB7mom011531@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". Well, as I learned it, same as "suit." But it is an interesting question -- are there people out there who would say "follow suite" with "suite" like "sweet"? Not something easy to determine with a web search, alas. If there were a good way to limit the hits to end words of rhyming poetry, that would be a great start (perhaps there is, and I simply don't know how -- if so, someone please tell me!). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 00:18:01 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:18:01 +0000 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: Could the confusion be related to the prescriptions and prescriptions concerning "bedroom suites." Etc.? ------Original Message------ From: James Harbeck Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] follow suite >> follow suit >i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling >(and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- >playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) You're right, of course. Somehow I learned that one wrong as a child and have lacked opportunities for correction! Not eggcorn but eggface, as it turns out. > > -- which, however, could >> make _it_ an eggcorn. >> >> I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. >> I can't imagine this one is all that new. > >this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped >variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). Yes, I think that's fair. One less user now, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 15 00:29:32 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: A<815287.27704.qm@web53910.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Without otherwise attempting to take a position in this learned discussion, I would just point out that if this is to be the standard, it is a standard that much advertising copy will fail to meet. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:51 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 15 00:29:11 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:29:11 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". > >Well, as I learned it, same as "suit." But it is an interesting >question -- are there people out there who would say "follow suite" >with "suite" like "sweet"? I guess I would, if requested to read out loud "follow suite" from one of the many books showing this spelling ... I like spelling pronunciations and I don't know offhand of any "suite" in English which cannot be 'correctly' pronounced "sweet" (I pronounce "bedroom suite" etc. this way too). I'm sure I'm not the only one. Try Googling <<"simply follow sweet">>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 15 00:31:22 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:31:22 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <20071015000749.LDGU20060.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: I can understand the use of both -- although I am not a user of "suite". Perhaps more common in Europe? Doesn't "suit" come from the French "suite"? OED2 says "[a. AF. siwte (12th c.), siute, sute, seute, suite = OF. sieute, later suitte, etc. (mod.F. suite, see suite)" And OED2 has this quotation: "1849 Chambers's Inform. People II. 663/2 If a person happens not to follow suite, or trump a suite." -- although it's its only "follow suite". Joel At 10/14/2007 08:07 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I >>learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always >>understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm >>quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative >>for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At >>any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been >>wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, >>but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't >>people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not >>otherwise often written down.) > >I think "suite" for "suit [of cards etc.]" is simply a variant >spelling in modern times. > >Searching Google Books for <<"follow suit">> gives 1890 items while ><<"follow suite">> gives 'only' 415: still far too many for sporadic >error, I think. Of course I didn't examine every item, but quick >browse indicates that the 'literal' (card-playing, domino-playing) >and the 'metaphoric' senses of the phrase both have multiple examples >of each spelling ... and both spellings were used 200 years ago ... >and both are used currently, in seemingly respectable books. > >I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: >10/14/2007 9:22 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 15 00:36:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? In-Reply-To: <20071014221835.EFQV20060.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. These 1702 (or 1701, possibly, being in an almanack for 1702) cites for "flip" and "bounce" will go off to the OED. Joel At 10/14/2007 06:18 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type >>of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that >>might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a >>tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of >>colonial sources have been modernized.") >> >>The days are short, the weather's cold >>By tavern fires tales are told >>Some ask for dram when first come in >>Others with flip or bounce begin. > >I assume it's short for "cherry bounce" ("cherry-bounce" in my >poor-man's OED), i.e., a drink, either cherry brandy (as in OED) or >some rum-based concoction (several recipes can be found via Google >Books, although none so early as 1704). > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: >10/14/2007 9:22 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:04:23 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:04:23 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world Message-ID: Today ___, tomorrow the world Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) According to a post in the Mudcat Forum (3), it "is a citation from the chorus of a song (from 1932?):" "Es zittern die morschen Knochen" by Hans Baumann (4, 5). The refrain is Wir werden weiter marschieren > Wenn alles in Scherben fällt, > Denn heute da hört uns Deutschland > Und morgen die ganze Welt. > (so, not so much a citation as perhaps an allusion) -- which, if my undergraduate German serves me, means approximately We will march on > (even) if everything falls to pieces, > for today Germany hears us > and tomorrow the whole world. > But "da hört uns" 'hears us', as printed here, may well either be a softening of "gehört uns", or have been understood as "da gehört uns", 'belongs to us' (6). My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original slogan. m a m 1. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei; scroll down to Slogans 2. http://movies.go.com/tomorrow-the-world/d787709/drama 3. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=55750; search for "translation", in the post by "Wolfgang" of 24 Feb 2003. 4. http://ingeb.org/Lieder/eszitter.html 5. http://www.kollektives-gedaechtnis.de/texte/vor45/lieder.html 6. http://schmautz.gmxhome.de/nachd.htm, bottom of page 7. http://www.valleybooks.net/cgi-bin/valleybooks/14034.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:09:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:09:21 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142350.l9EAl2K5010082@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Google reports ~ 56400 hits for "follow suite", so James has indeed uncovered an eggcorn, just not quite the one he thought he had. m a m On 10/14/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > > this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped > variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:51:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 01:51:57 +0000 Subject: glory In-Reply-To: <204955318-1192404639-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-593868146-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: ronbutters at AOL.COM Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:30:12 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] glory Does this ironic sense of "glory" exist apart from the cliche that JL cites here? If not, it seems to me that dictionaries should NOT mention it. And the ironic reading is usu. so clear from context that even listing the fixed phrase might should be given very low priority. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] glory OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 15 02:01:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:01:18 -0700 Subject: antedating "cant" Message-ID: In the obs. sense "A toss, pitch, or throw, which overturns, casts down, etc.... 1736 J. LEWIS Hist. Thanet Gloss., Cant..likewise signifies a cast or throw; ‘I gave him a cant’. " From EEBO: 1683 _The Loyal Caution to All the Kings Friends...A Song_ v: But her Husband was Loyal & gave him a _Cant_. JL --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 04:16:26 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:16:26 -0400 Subject: Southwest Salad (Southwest Chicken Salad) Message-ID: SOUTHWEST CHICKEN SALAD--18,800 Google hits SOUTHWESTERN CHICKEN SALAD--10,300 Google hits SOUTHWEST SALAD--16,500 Google hits SOUTHWESTERN SALAD--12,200 Google hits McDonald's added "Southwest Salad" in 2007, so it's time to look at this regional American food term. Perhaps there's OED/DARE interest. I couldn't find the name before the 1970s. Only part of my long entry is below. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/southwest_salad_southwest_chicken_salad_southwestern_chicken_salad/ ... Entry from October 14, 2007 Southwest Salad or Southwestern Salad (Southwest Chicken Salad or Southwestern Chicken Salad) In 2007, McDonald's introduced a "Southwest Salad." In 2003, Jack in the Box introduced a "Southwest Salad." What is this salad that sometimes goes by the names of "Southwestern Salad," "Southwest Chicken Salad" and "Southwestern Chicken Salad"? A "Southwest Salad" usually contains chicken, but may not (hence the name difference). Cilantro, lime or lemon is often added to the chicken. Corn is usually an ingredient in a Southwest Salad, and black beans, tomatoes, peppers, onions and even jack cheese sometimes are included. McDonald's adds tortilla strips; Jack in the Box adds onion rings. A 1972 recipe for "Southwest Salad" included kidney beans, celery, green peppers, onion, and spicy French dressing (no chicken). The Southwest Salad seems to have achieved popularity in the 1980s and 1990s. McDonald's Southwest salad Bold and zest. Just like you. Tangy warm cilantro-lime glazed chicken meets a lively blend of poblano peppers, roasted tomatoes, crispy chili-lime tortilla strips, savory black beans and lime-roasted corn. Shredded cheddar jack cheese and Newman's Own All Natural Southwest Dressing complete the salad that's deliciously, dramatically different. Just like you. Jack In The Box—Our Food Southwest Salad Iceberg/Romaine Lettuce Blend Spring Mix Black Beans Red Onion Rings Roasted Corn Grape Tomatoes Shredded Pepper Jack Cheese on the side: Grilled or Crispy Chicken Strips Creamy Southwest Dressing Spicy Corn Sticks Cooks.com SOUTHWESTERN SALAD 1 (19 oz.) can drained kidney beans 1 (8 3/4 oz.) drained corn 1 lg. chopped tomato 1 sm. chopped green pepper 1 (4 oz.) can chopped mild green chiles (optional) 1 tbsp. chopped fresh coriander (optional) 2 tbsp. chili sauce 2 tbsp. red wine vinegar 1/4 tsp. oregano 1/4 tsp. sugar 1/4 tsp. salt 2 tbsp. oil Combine first 6 ingredients in a large bowl. Combine rest of ingredients. Pour dressing over vegetable mixture. Refrigerate. Serves 8. Cooks.com SOUTHWESTERN SALAD 1 can kidney beans, drained 1 c. cooked corn kernels 1/4 c. chopped red bell peppers (pimiento) 1 green pepper, seeded and chopped 1/2 bunch scallions, chopped 2 tbsp. chopped fresh cilantro Juice of 1/2 lime (or 5 tbsp. vinegar) 1 clove garlic, crushed Salt and pepper to taste Pinch of sugar or a little honey 1/2 head crisp, shredded lettuce Combine beans, corn, peppers, scallions and cilantro. Put dressing ingredients in a jar; shake to mix well. Pour over vegetables and toss. Chill to allow flavors to meld. Line serving dish with shredded lettuce; spoon bean mixture on top. Garnish with lime slices and parsley sprigs. (More on my website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Oct 15 10:31:17 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:31:17 -0400 Subject: glory In-Reply-To: <200710150152.l9EAl2XP010082@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps blaze of glory might be covered under the figurative sense of blaze? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 15 12:05:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:05:44 -0400 Subject: antedating "duck tape" 1899 Message-ID: OED has 1902 1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, 1899; pg. 3; Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, Corresponding Secretary of the Era Club. Category: News [col. F] ...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, especially in white and dark blue. 1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: 05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical Newspapers] Adv. Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Oct 15 12:10:50 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:10:50 -0400 Subject: In? On? Google In-Reply-To: <200709291117.l8TAk98U030133@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps getting _on_ an airplane or even a train devolves from getting _on board_, _on-board_, or even _aboard_. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "David A. Daniel" >Subject: Re: In? On? Google >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Usage of in and on is highly idiomatic. We all know that while normal >people >are waiting in line New Yorkers are waiting on line. And as George Carlin >says (or at least used to say) "You can get ON an airplane if you want to, >but I am going to get IN it." >DAD > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >Of >Mark Mandel >Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: In? On? Google > > >My guess (or theory or hypothesis if I want to sound more scholarly) is >that >places defined as surfaces take ON and places defined by boundaries on >surfaces take IN: > >on Earth, on the Moon, on small islands (Staten Island) > >in Rochester, in the US, in large islands (Greenland), continents (Europe, >Australia, Africa) > >This mainlander thinks of Hawai`i as a state and so a political entity >rather than a topographic one; similarly e.g. Iceland or Greenland. Do >Hawai`ians say "in" or "on" for Oahu? for the big island (i.e., the island >Hawai`i)? > >m a m > >On 9/25/07, Your Name wrote: >> >> I've always been fascinated by how we choose "in" vs. "on." I live ON >> the >> earth, but I live IN Rochester - which is obviously ON the earth. I'd >> never >> say I lived ON Rochester or IN the earth. I found the info IN the >> dictionary, >> but ON the internet (or on Google). Is that because the info was ON >the >> pages, but the pages were contained INside the book covers? While the >> Google >> info appears ON my monitor screen? >> >> Anyone who can shed any light on how we choose IN vs. ON? >> >> Rosemarie >> >> The worst thing about censorship is ************************** ! >> >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at >> http://www.aol.com >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Oct 15 15:16:20 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710142016.l9EB7mWO023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall > that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was > the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that > asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" > I don't think that "scream" meaning "fast" is all that uncommon. I remember buying a computer about 1990 that was a "screamer". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From indigo at WELL.COM Mon Oct 15 15:22:09 2007 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:22:09 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" Message-ID: How about "screaming" as an equivalent to fabulous, great, amazing? That's been around for a while. "That party was screamin'!" In particular, I remember wearing a spectacular pair of striped pants to work one day (Oakland CA, circa 2002) & my client admired them, saying "those pants are screaming!" That comment stood out in my mind because I don't usually wear screaming clothes (flamboyant, colorful, &c.), not because I thought screaming was a strange word to use. What can I say, I was proud of those pants! >Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is >destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have >suddenly been extinguished. > > They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in >the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy >seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, >like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not >trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free >to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not >"destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a >freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. > > If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in >brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the >semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively >than I thought. > > Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice >cream they want. > > JL > > >James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Harbeck >Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >>Blacula, Speak"? >> I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging > >An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry >typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible >nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a >refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry >more of a challenge. > >The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the >continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat >camp overtones, though. > >James Harbeck. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 15:56:53 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:56:53 EDT Subject: blaze of glory Message-ID: The mind of a true lexicographer at work. Clearly the Dictionary Society of North America knew what they were doing when they elected DB president. I suggest that this idea appears to me to scream out for implementation. In a message dated 10/15/07 6:31:28 AM, barnhart at highlands.com writes: > Perhaps blaze of glory might be covered under the figurative sense of > blaze? > > Regards, > David > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 16:19:59 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:19:59 +0000 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This sense of "scream" is already recognized by those slang dictionaries that have managed to get to the letter S! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Indigo Som Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:22:09 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] semantic drift: "scream" How about "screaming" as an equivalent to fabulous, great, amazing? That's been around for a while. "That party was screamin'!" In particular, I remember wearing a spectacular pair of striped pants to work one day (Oakland CA, circa 2002) & my client admired them, saying "those pants are screaming!" That comment stood out in my mind because I don't usually wear screaming clothes (flamboyant, colorful, &c.), not because I thought screaming was a strange word to use. What can I say, I was proud of those pants! >Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is >destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have >suddenly been extinguished. > > They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in >the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy >seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, >like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not >trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free >to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not >"destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a >freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. > > If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in >brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the >semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively >than I thought. > > Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice >cream they want. > > JL > > >James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Harbeck >Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >>Blacula, Speak"? >> I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging > >An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry >typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible >nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a >refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry >more of a challenge. > >The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the >continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat >camp overtones, though. > >James Harbeck. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 17:36:50 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:36:50 -0400 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) Message-ID: COWBOY CUT + STEAK--737 Google hits COWBOY RIBEYE--9,130 Google hits COWBOY RIB STEAK--177 Google hits "Cowby Cut" ("Cowboy Ribeye") is not in OED. Perhaps OED could consider it in the "ribeye" entry revision. It's be featured in my Texas Food Museum, that I gotta build myself brick by brick, with absolutely no help from anyone in this darned state... ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cowboy_cut_cowboy_ribeye_steak_cowboy_rib_steak/ ... Entry from October 15, 2007 Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye Steak; Cowboy Rib Steak) A "cowboy cut" is a cut of steak with the bone in (for use by cowboys as a handle). The term "cowboy cut" appeared in the late 1960s and 1970s; Wrangler introduced its "cowboy cut" jeans before the steak cut had its name. The cowboy cut is usually for rib-eye steaks, and they're often called "cowboy ribeyes" or "cowboy rib steaks." Montana Legend Natural Angus Beef Ribeye Steak Cut from the middle (or "eye") of the rib, these ample, well-marbled steaks have long been a staple at distinctive meals. The ribeye comes from the tail-end of the loin, next to the New York Strip. This boneless cut is a more robust steak, and it is sometimes called the "cowboy cut." With its generous marbling, it can take a little more heat and be served medium to medium-rare. Smithfield Collection - Gourmet Steaks & Beef Cowboy-Cut Rib Eyes NEW! A frenched bone-in Rib Eye from Smithfield Beef is what Paula chooses when she craves a good ol' steak on the grill. Perfectly marbled like a rib-eye should, incredibly tender and juicy, this is one hunk of beef! Just ask Paula. 14 oz. each. Ruth Chris Steak House Cowboy Ribeye A huge bone-in version of this USDA Prime cut. 22 April 1967, The Argus (Fremont, CA), Family Weekly, pg. 15, col. 1: I have, for example, learned to be wary of such menu items as cowboy-cut T-bone steak, Santa Fe third-degree Chili, and fried reconstituted oysters. 14 March 1969, Oakland (CA) Tribune, pg. E53, col. 5 ad: Cowboy Cut Prime Rib Dinner on Saturday. (Roy Rogers' Apple Valley Inn—ed.) 3 October 1969, Valley News (Van Nuys, CA), pg. 7, col. 1: ...and the Gold Rush, High Sierra Mountain trout and pepper cowboy cut sirloin steak. 20 February 1972, Yuma (AZ) Daily Sun, Dining & Dancing, pg. 10, col. 4 ad: Charbroiled Cowboy Cut T-Bone Steak $2.95 (Farm House—ed.) 14 June 1973, Long Beach (CA) Press-Telegram, pg. A33, col. 2 ad: Curly's Giant Cowboy Cut Prime Rib Dinner $2.95 (Curly Jones—ed.) 15 August 1973, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 29 ad: COWBOY Cut of Cross Cut STEAK...lb. 1.44 31 October 1975, Albuquerque (NM) Journal, pg. F7, col. 1 ad: PRIME RIB Ladies Cut $4.95 Cowboy Cut $6.50 (Chez Hubert—ed.) 9 April 1976, Yuma (AZ) Daily Sun, pg. 45?, col. 2 ad: Cowboy Rib Steak 18 oz. ... 3.75 (Brownie's Pit—ed.) 7 December 1977, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. C11, col. 5 ad: Cowboy Cut ...$5.50 Cowgirl Cut...4.50 Tenderfoot...3.95 Rib-Eye Steak...5.95 (Upper Valley Cattle Company—ed.) Google Groups: dfw.eats Newsgroups: dfw.eats From: mpe... at hamon.swmed.edu (Michael Perry) Date: 1996/04/11 Subject: Re: Going to Star Canyon… My main course was the Cowboy Ribeye which is a grilled marinated ribeye steak smothered in onion rings. This is supposed to be one of the house specialities. The beef was tender and juicy and the marinade was very good. Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Cuchulain Libby" Date: 2000/06/25 Subject: Re: Ruth's Chris style steaks? Just et a 2.1 lb 'cowboy cut' [little rib bone attached] rib-eye. Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Cuchulain Libby" Date: 2000/06/27 Subject: Re: Ruth's Chris style steaks? i say this because I found a supply of 21-day wet aged rib-eyes cut 'cowboy cut' with the little bone attached, like someone will really use it like a handle. Kinda cute tho' Google Groups: rec.arts.disney.parks Newsgroups: rec.arts.disney.parks From: i... at aol.comnospam (IMBE) Date: 31 Jul 2001 14:37:23 GMT Local: Tues, Jul 31 2001 10:37 am Subject: IMBE's Dining Report 1 (Liberty Tree Tavern, Concourse Steakhouse, Kona Cafe, CA Grill) For dinner, everyone had the special of the night - a "Cowboy Ribeye" with Mashed Potatoes. Now the mashed were great - the parmesan type from Chef Mickey's! LOL The steak wasn't of a bad quality, it just had virtually NO seasonings on it. Google Groups: rec.collecting.coins Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins From: "Fred A. Murphy" Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:47:43 GMT Local: Tues, Sep 4 2001 6:47 pm Subject: Re: are my National Bicentennial Medals Gold? Many years ago, the standard for a "cowboy cut" steak was that you could cut a slot in it, and the steak was (better be) as thick as the coin was wide. Google Groups: memphis.dining Newsgroups: memphis.dining From: "Kilroy238" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:32:51 -0500 Local: Wed, Sep 17 2003 11:32 am Subject: Re: Who has the best… When you go to Ruth's Chris be sure to take your wallet Doc. Last time I was there had a cowboy cut 32oz bone in ribeye and a 2 1/2 lbs lobster was about $125. Google Books Frommer's Portable Cayman Islands by Darwin Porter and Danforth Prince Wiley Publishing, Inc. 2003 Pg. 174: The most frequently ordered local favorite is the "cowboy cut" (16 or 18 oz.) of rib-eye dipped in blackened spices, pan seared, and topped with grilled onions. Google Books Flavourville by Lesley Chesterman ECW Press 2003 Pg. 24: Main courses included grilled black sea bass, a rack of Rimouski lamb, and a "Cowboy Cut" 20-ounce rib steak. Google Books New Mexico by Brian Bell Insight Guides 2004 Pg. 326: The menu changes often, but a recent installment included chile-glazed beef short ribs, black truffle risotto, scallops a la vera cruzana and the venerable "cowboy cut"—an aged Angus beef ribeye. (Coyote Cafe in Santa Fe, NM—ed.) Boston Globe Archives MENUSPEAK Published on August 3, 2005 Author(s): Joe Yonan As far as butchers and many restaurant suppliers are concerned, a "cowboy steak" is a bone-in ribeye in which the bone is "Frenched," or scraped bare, creating a handle perfect for a cowpoke with no time for knife or fork. Boston's South End is no Wild West, but the Southwestern restaurant Masa gives its own expansive definition to the cowboy cut idea. At Masa, two of the most popular dishes take the name: one is a pork chop, Chowhound - Chicago Area My bone in rib-eye (aka the cowboy cut or Chicago bone in cut) are really just (cooked) prime rib cut to 3/4" thickness and charred to finish. abf005 Apr 25, 2007 12:30PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 15 23:42:49 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:42:49 -0400 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forget the cowboy cut--what else do you have on fried reconstituted oysters? Are those sea creatures or the mountain variety, and what (one wonders) caused the need for reconstitution? Inquiring palates want to know! LH At 1:36 PM -0400 10/15/07, Barry Popik wrote: >COWBOY CUT + STEAK--737 Google hits >COWBOY RIBEYE--9,130 Google hits >COWBOY RIB STEAK--177 Google hits > >"Cowby Cut" ("Cowboy Ribeye") is not in OED. Perhaps OED could >consider it in the "ribeye" entry revision. It's be featured in my >Texas Food Museum, that I gotta build myself brick by brick, with >absolutely no help from anyone in this darned state... >... >... >... >http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cowboy_cut_cowboy_ribeye_steak_cowboy_rib_steak/ >... >Entry from October 15, 2007 >Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye Steak; Cowboy Rib Steak) >A "cowboy cut" is a cut of steak with the bone in (for use by cowboys >as a handle). The term "cowboy cut" appeared in the late 1960s and >1970s; Wrangler introduced its "cowboy cut" jeans before the steak cut >had its name. The cowboy cut is usually for rib-eye steaks, and >they're often called "cowboy ribeyes" or "cowboy rib steaks." >... >22 April 1967, The Argus (Fremont, CA), Family Weekly, pg. 15, col. 1: >I have, for example, learned to be wary of such menu items as >cowboy-cut T-bone steak, Santa Fe third-degree Chili, and fried >reconstituted oysters. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 03:26:57 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:26:57 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism Message-ID: In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 04:07:14 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:07:14 -0400 Subject: "Strew" [stru] v. [stro] redux, sort of Message-ID: A while ago, we discussed a non-standard pronunciation such that "strew" has a conjugation identical to that of "sew." While watching _Discovery Health_,I heard a doctor refer to a disease called [spro]. I've heard of a disease spelled "sprue," preumably pronounced [spru]. The other doctors referred to [spro] as [spru]. Google shows "sprew" as a very rare alternative spelling of "sprue." Unfortunately, there's no way to tell whether rhe doctor who used the pronunciation [spro] also used the spelling "sprew." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 04:11:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: "Gray Rape"--I just don't like this one...Sorry for the bad intro to the previous post, but I'd spent much time researching "cowboy cut" (I now have a "cowboy-cut jeans" entry on my wenbsite as well) and the wife was kicking me out the door. ... ... ... http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form-of-date-rape/ October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? By Sewell Chan When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. "Are you talking about the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what." A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of "gray rape" — and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate White, editor in chief of Cosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 05:36:27 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:36:27 -0400 Subject: "Nachos" (1948, San Antonio Light) Message-ID: NewspaperArchive just expanded its database of the San Antonio Light newspaper. I found nice "nachos," but no luck with Margarita. ... ... ,.. (OED) nacho, n. orig. U.S. A tortilla chip, typically topped with melted cheese, chilli sauce, etc. Usu. in pl.: a Texan or Mexican dish consisting of these, freq. served as a snack or appetizer with savoury dips. 1949 J. TRAHEY Taste of Texas 27 He returned carrying a large dish of Nachos Especiales. 'These Nachos,' said Pedro, 'will help El Capitansoon he will forget his troubles for nachos make one romantic.' ... ... ... http://www.newspaperarchive.com/NewContent.aspx Available 10/16/2007 Title: San Antonio Light, The Country: United States Of America State: Texas City: San Antonio Page Count: 30914 Date(s): 1947 - 1959 ... ... ... 28 January 1948, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 14A, col. 4 ad: Mexican Food at its best! LATIN QUARTER MEXICAN RESTAURANT 305 W. Josephine "NACHOS" (Mexican Hors-D'-Oeuvres)...35c Here is a real dainty! Golden fried tortilla strips, deliciously spiced, topped with mellow, melted cheese and garnished with chili jalapeno bits. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 05:54:58 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:54:58 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710160327.l9G0kj2F003447@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "Séan O Coileáin" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism derive = > from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of heat and = > passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples of "teas = > ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know how good a = > source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? = > Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. > =20 > =20 > John Baker > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 16 13:41:17 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:41:17 -0400 Subject: antedating "jerry" building 1859; jerry built 1860 Message-ID: OED has 1869 for jerry-built; 1885 for jerry building 1859 The New York Herald, (New York, NY) Thursday, November 10, 1859; pg. 4; col F [19th C US Newspapers] The Great Eastern and Her Future Liverpool Opinion of the Big Ship Category: Shipping news [19th C US Newspapers] [from the Liverpool Albion, Oct.22] ...the decks...will have to be replaced...her sleeping cabins are wretched, dark, badly ventilated dens, and must all come down. In short, she is nothing more nor less than a gigantic imposture below, a fit sample of Thames "jerry" building fixings, the whole demonstrating that limited liability can coexist with unlimited folly and extravagance....Liverpool or Clyde shipbuilders would never have turned out such work. 1860 Tom Rocket &c. &c. &c. (London: Ward and Lock, 1860) By Albany de Grenier Fonblanque, Jun. [Google Books full view] in the story "Sebastopol Villa" [according to the front matter, reprinted from a periodical] pages 63-4: He had tried other building speculations, had run up other "jerry-built" houses, and had failed utterly, hopelessly. Mr. Peter Specie seized his houses, including Sebastopol Villa, for the ground rent, and let them to [p. 64] people who believed in cheap tenements. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 16 14:20:37 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:20:37 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such a drug becomes a date rape. --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >From: Barry Popik >Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >... >http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form-of-date-rape/ >October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >By Sewell Chan > >When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. "Are you talking about >the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. > > >An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what." > >A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of "gray rape" — and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 14:36:57 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) Message-ID: SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits ... ... This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation born in the ... First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors stand apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About the Pew Internet & American Life Project http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 14:32:47 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: A<82745f630710152254w9acbe90le59707c4b8c5e537@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Cassidy's claim is that "teas" is pronounced "j'as" in the Ulster and North Mayo dialect, which he describes as one of the three living dialects of Irish. I don't have much doubt that if Irishmen said "j'as'm," with a voiceless s, Americans could convert that to jazm. But I'm left with several questions: 1. Does "teas ioma" really mean heat, passion, semen in Irish? Under the circumstances, I would think we would want more than Cassidy's say-so. 2. It's all very well to say that "j'as'm" could become jasm, but the supposed Irish phrase is "teas ioma." Even with the t taking a j sound, how plausible is that change in pronunciation? 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from somewhere. Thoughts? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "Séan O Coileáin" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive = from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and = passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples > of "teas = ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know > how good a = source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? > = Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Oct 16 14:18:39 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:18:39 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710152343.l9FJtZe2021967@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE If you take a steer to the large-animal vet, and tell him that you want to make it back into a bull, the vet will reconstitute his oysters. > > Forget the cowboy cut--what else do you have on fried > reconstituted oysters? Are those sea creatures or the > mountain variety, and what (one wonders) caused the need for > reconstitution? > Inquiring palates want to know! > > LH > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 15:36:40 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:36:40 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161436.l9GAkUnd032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this official? Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > ... > ... > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > ... > ... > ... > (GOOGLE NEWS) > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > born in the ... > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > ... > ... > (GOOGLE NEWS) > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > ... > ... > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors stand > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About the Pew > Internet & American Life Project http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 16 15:36:32 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:36:32 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/16/2007 10:32 AM, John Baker wrote, asking for thoughts: > 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug > Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that > was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of > Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a > vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before > that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their > influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? The following almost certainly does not affect the implausibility of an Irish origin, but: There certainly were Irish immigrants -- and frequently deplored -- in the early 18th century; in particular, there was resistance to their coming into Boston between 1715 and 1725. (Colonials deploring the Irish goes back to the 1630s.) As for quantity, "By far the greatest number of [indentured] servants and redemptioners came from that country during the eighteenth century." (References upon request.) As for the Franklin family, Ben was certainly familiar with the vulgar tongue -- see the 1736-7 "Drinkers Dictionary" (even though I have deprived him of its authorship). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 16 16:03:35 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:03:35 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161536.l9GAp6oQ000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word around 30 years ago. I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", because I have never understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguages.wordpress.com Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this official? > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 16:15:36 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:15:36 -0700 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710161437.l9GAnrUB003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Further questions that must be addressed are, first of all, even if "teas ioma" means, as Cassidy asserts, "an abundance of heat and passion," was this phrase likely to be heard in common use? Or was it in literary use only? Is its existence as a grammatical Irish collocation even attested before the mid-19th C.? And if it is attested, is it ever "figuratively" used for "semen," as Cassidy claims, or is that his own interpretation to "prove" the point? He doesn't say. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cassidy's claim is that "teas" is pronounced "j'as" in the Ulster and North Mayo dialect, which he describes as one of the three living dialects of Irish. I don't have much doubt that if Irishmen said "j'as'm," with a voiceless s, Americans could convert that to jazm. But I'm left with several questions: 1. Does "teas ioma" really mean heat, passion, semen in Irish? Under the circumstances, I would think we would want more than Cassidy's say-so. 2. It's all very well to say that "j'as'm" could become jasm, but the supposed Irish phrase is "teas ioma." Even with the t taking a j sound, how plausible is that change in pronunciation? 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from somewhere. Thoughts? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "Séan O Coileáin" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive = from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and = passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples > of "teas = ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know > how good a = source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? > = Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 16 16:21:42 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:21:42 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9E40@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: There's also "a scream [of laughter]" Have you met her? She's a scream. Or, That movie is a scream. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" Date: Monday, October 15, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > > The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall > > that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was > > the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that > > asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" > > > > I don't think that "scream" meaning "fast" is all that uncommon. > I remember buying a computer about 1990 that was a "screamer". > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slang at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Oct 16 17:01:50 2007 From: slang at UCHICAGO.EDU (Sarah Lang) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:01:50 -0600 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710161420.l9GAkUlT032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- rape" drunk was used. Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to give consent. (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and its meanings or usages justice.) S. On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days > ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging > and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, > at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the > term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, > possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? > > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the > informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such > a drug becomes a date rape. > > --Charlie > ____________________________________________________________ > > ---- Original message ---- >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >> From: Barry Popik >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> ... >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- >> of-date-rape/ >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >> By Sewell Chan >> >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. >> "Are you talking about >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. >> >> >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted >> what." >> >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of >> "gray rape" — and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 16 17:17:00 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:17:00 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2007, at 23:26, Baker, John wrote: > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any > examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I > don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on > this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" > category. That's the weakness of his Irish, too, that he's not working from reliable source material. It doesn't require a fluent or native understanding of Irish (which Cassidy does not have--this an important point that he often lets go unexplained) to see that he's taking words that have complex senses and cherry-picking the one that most suits his purposes. The Irish definitions he gives are little better than glosses and do not show a complex understanding of context nor frequency, neither presently nor historically. He's done no corpus analysis. At best, he seems to have plundered dictionaries, and when it has suited him, he has adjusted his plunderings to make the meanings broad enough to support his theories. What he's also done is found writers of Irish heritage who have used the English forms of the words, going by surname only in some cases, in others choosing people who live or had lived or could have lived in a region that was widely settled by Irish or Scots-Irish. He's done little to verify whether those people he is quoting had any knowledge of Irish, even just an old granny who might have taught them a few expressions. He seems to be working under the assumption that some Irish just lingered in the air. Then in the cases that I have seen (I have not read this book thoroughly), he has chosen as supporting evidence English-language quotes that contain the *English* word under discussion. I have yet to see a single one of his quotes include any form of the *Irish* word in an *English-language* context, except when he's quoting from dictionaries which, in all cases, are talking about an Irish meaning rather than the supposed English meaning. Even in the completely Irish quotes, the forms of the word that are cited are usually very different from the form that was supposedly transformed into an English word. Many of his Irish forms should be prefixed with an asterisk because he has not found them in the wild but merely postulated their existence. To put it another way, he's failed to find early uses of the transformed or transforming terms--that is, a variety of phonetic or Anglicized spellings that resemble the terms as we know them today, i.e., word forms somewhere on the continuum of change-- that might demonstrate that they were earliest, or nearly earliest, used by Irish-speakers or people of provable Irish heritage or in direct contact with Irish people. His citation evidence is paltry and incomplete. The main thing that bothers me about most of his theories, besides his overall unwillingness to express doubt and caveats about them and his apparent inability to do the work required to falsify his own theories, is that in cultural overlaps and contact situations in which words are borrowed there tends to be written evidence of it. This happened repeatedly with contact contacts by the English, French, and Spanish settlers with Native Americans in the New World, and it continues to happen where Spanish and English rub up against each other today. So, there might be texts that show this happening. In those cases, we might find borrowed words set off by quotes or dashes, or explained as "as my gram used to say," or "as we used to say," or even given plainly as a word from another language, and so forth. Primary source material needs to be found and examined: letters, books, diaries, what have you. Certainly, across the whole of his book "How the Irish Invented Slang," there should be lots and lots of this sort of "language contact" evidence, but I've yet to see any (again, I have not read the book thoroughly). Of course, if no such texts are found, or the words are not found in them, then the theories are unproven, and that is that. Cassidy has promoted his unsubstantiated theories so widely that he cannot back down now without looking foolish. Besides that, substantiation is a lot of work, and as we have seen repeatedly, those would-be scholars who "cry Wolof" have little stomach for the tedium required to prove their theories. Instead, they do mini-book tours of Ireland where they are lauded by well- meaning folk who don't know better than to trust. For an example typical of his scholarship, see his claims about "bunkum." He says that the congressman from Buncombe County lived in North Carolina, which had a Scots-Gaelic and Irish-speaking population, which, somehow supported by information gathered from a 2005 Scotsman newspaper article that said Dizzy Gillespie's family from NC and Alabama were African-American Gaelic speakers, means that "Buncombe" comes from "buanchumadh," which he defines as "a long made- up story, an endless invention." His other evidence is three uses of "bunk" in the plays of Eugene O'Neill, one from 1939 which has it as "de old Irish bunk"--the oldest cite he has, 89 years later than OED's first cite. He has no citations spelled "buanchumadh" at all, neither in English nor Irish. Nowhere does he attempt to explain the early expression "talking to Buncombe," nor the capitalization or spelling of Buncombe in early uses, nor the existence of Colonel Edward Buncombe for which the county is named. This is in the same entry in which he casually throws in unsupported Irish etymologies for "swank" and "to dig=understand." By the way, there are a number of old full-text English-Irish dictionaries at Google Books that might be helpful. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 17:19:36 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:19:36 -0400 Subject: Cassidy Message-ID: I sent some of our recent posts to a former colleague who's an Irish/Celtic specialist (though not primarily a linguist). He writes: David: Forgive me if I have said this before. Daniel Cassidy's reputation is zilch in Irish American scholarship. The two leading journals, NEW HIBERNIA REVIEW and EIRE-IRELAND, have both rejected him. He takes such rejection with vituperation. He's a credulous empire-builder. That does not mean there is not much influence of spoken Irish (Gaelic) on spoken English. One is the lenition of initial B's in some NYC place names, "Vrooklyn" for "Brooklyn." As for vocabulary, slob and phony are pretty well accepted, I think. There is other Irish influence not from spoken Irish. Stephen Foster was Irish (and gay), and the words and music for "Dixie" were written by Irishmen in New York. You probably know about the naughty implications of the title "Dixie." None of this means Cassidy is right. Best, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:32:58 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:32:58 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not clear what the (t) in m-w's pronunciation means - is the 't' optional, or does this indicate placing the tongue against the teeth but going to the 's' without pronouncing, or very weakly pronouncing, the 't'? --- Tom Zurinskas wrote: ... > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com > does not pronounce it.... James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU Tue Oct 16 17:46:59 2007 From: t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:46:59 -0400 Subject: AS indexing In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9EBE@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Colleagues, I was doing a bibliography search using the MLA index yesterday, and I noticed that the search was not returning an information about articles published in American Speech for 2005 to the present. Does anyone know whether MLA stopped indexing American Speech or who bibliography other than MLA does index the journal? -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:49:19 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:49:19 -0700 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710161717.l9GAnrj7003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Most eloquent, Grant. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 15, 2007, at 23:26, Baker, John wrote: > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any > examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I > don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on > this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" > category. That's the weakness of his Irish, too, that he's not working from reliable source material. It doesn't require a fluent or native understanding of Irish (which Cassidy does not have--this an important point that he often lets go unexplained) to see that he's taking words that have complex senses and cherry-picking the one that most suits his purposes. The Irish definitions he gives are little better than glosses and do not show a complex understanding of context nor frequency, neither presently nor historically. He's done no corpus analysis. At best, he seems to have plundered dictionaries, and when it has suited him, he has adjusted his plunderings to make the meanings broad enough to support his theories. What he's also done is found writers of Irish heritage who have used the English forms of the words, going by surname only in some cases, in others choosing people who live or had lived or could have lived in a region that was widely settled by Irish or Scots-Irish. He's done little to verify whether those people he is quoting had any knowledge of Irish, even just an old granny who might have taught them a few expressions. He seems to be working under the assumption that some Irish just lingered in the air. Then in the cases that I have seen (I have not read this book thoroughly), he has chosen as supporting evidence English-language quotes that contain the *English* word under discussion. I have yet to see a single one of his quotes include any form of the *Irish* word in an *English-language* context, except when he's quoting from dictionaries which, in all cases, are talking about an Irish meaning rather than the supposed English meaning. Even in the completely Irish quotes, the forms of the word that are cited are usually very different from the form that was supposedly transformed into an English word. Many of his Irish forms should be prefixed with an asterisk because he has not found them in the wild but merely postulated their existence. To put it another way, he's failed to find early uses of the transformed or transforming terms--that is, a variety of phonetic or Anglicized spellings that resemble the terms as we know them today, i.e., word forms somewhere on the continuum of change-- that might demonstrate that they were earliest, or nearly earliest, used by Irish-speakers or people of provable Irish heritage or in direct contact with Irish people. His citation evidence is paltry and incomplete. The main thing that bothers me about most of his theories, besides his overall unwillingness to express doubt and caveats about them and his apparent inability to do the work required to falsify his own theories, is that in cultural overlaps and contact situations in which words are borrowed there tends to be written evidence of it. This happened repeatedly with contact contacts by the English, French, and Spanish settlers with Native Americans in the New World, and it continues to happen where Spanish and English rub up against each other today. So, there might be texts that show this happening. In those cases, we might find borrowed words set off by quotes or dashes, or explained as "as my gram used to say," or "as we used to say," or even given plainly as a word from another language, and so forth. Primary source material needs to be found and examined: letters, books, diaries, what have you. Certainly, across the whole of his book "How the Irish Invented Slang," there should be lots and lots of this sort of "language contact" evidence, but I've yet to see any (again, I have not read the book thoroughly). Of course, if no such texts are found, or the words are not found in them, then the theories are unproven, and that is that. Cassidy has promoted his unsubstantiated theories so widely that he cannot back down now without looking foolish. Besides that, substantiation is a lot of work, and as we have seen repeatedly, those would-be scholars who "cry Wolof" have little stomach for the tedium required to prove their theories. Instead, they do mini-book tours of Ireland where they are lauded by well- meaning folk who don't know better than to trust. For an example typical of his scholarship, see his claims about "bunkum." He says that the congressman from Buncombe County lived in North Carolina, which had a Scots-Gaelic and Irish-speaking population, which, somehow supported by information gathered from a 2005 Scotsman newspaper article that said Dizzy Gillespie's family from NC and Alabama were African-American Gaelic speakers, means that "Buncombe" comes from "buanchumadh," which he defines as "a long made- up story, an endless invention." His other evidence is three uses of "bunk" in the plays of Eugene O'Neill, one from 1939 which has it as "de old Irish bunk"--the oldest cite he has, 89 years later than OED's first cite. He has no citations spelled "buanchumadh" at all, neither in English nor Irish. Nowhere does he attempt to explain the early expression "talking to Buncombe," nor the capitalization or spelling of Buncombe in early uses, nor the existence of Colonel Edward Buncombe for which the county is named. This is in the same entry in which he casually throws in unsupported Irish etymologies for "swank" and "to dig=understand." By the way, there are a number of old full-text English-Irish dictionaries at Google Books that might be helpful. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:50:40 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:50:40 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <4714E0D7.2030609@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Tidal wave was the popular name in use when I was a youth back in the 50's, but I think those in the know have long eschewed this moniker for seismic sea wave. I have no documentation, but I think 'tsunami' has come into more widespread use in the past 50 years or so, basically since the end of WWII because of the more open exchange of scientific knowledge between Japan and the west (and because 'tsunami' sounds less mundane than 'seismic sea wave'). "Tidal wave: An erroneous syn. of both 'storm surge' and 'tsunami'" American Geologic Institute Glossary of Geology, 1980 --- Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word > around 30 years ago. > I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", > because I have never > understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 18:36:06 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:36:06 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? Message-ID: MOP SAUCE--14,800 Google hits MOPPING SAUCE--2,880 Google hits MOPPIN SAUCE--1,350 Google hits I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' comments appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ ... Entry from October 16, 2007 Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, but Jetton didn't invent "mop." The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and salt. About.com: Barbecues & Grilling Mop from Derrick Riches The baste of Barbecue When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, "mop". Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. Food Network Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay Episode: Austin (Texas) During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas Style Mop Sauce. 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers 6 ounces yellow mustard 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce 4 ounces honey Pinch hot chile flakes 4 ounces wine vinegar 1 white onion chopped 2 lemons, sliced Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes during cooking. Cooks.com TEXAS MOP SAUCE 1/2 c. tomato sauce 1 c. strong black coffee 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce 1 tbsp. sugar 1 tbsp. salt 1/2 c. butter Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. Cooks.com TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE 2 c. beef stock 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco Black pepper 1 tsp. chili powder 1 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce 1/3 c. oil 1/2 tsp. garlic powder 1 tsp. paprika Crushed red pepper (to taste) Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! About.com: Barbecues & Grilling Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce >From Paul Williams Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't have to worry about it burning. INGREDIENTS: 2 cups vinegar 1 cup olive oil 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce 1/2 cup water 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half 2 tablespoons hot sauce 6 bay leaves, crushed 2 cloves garlic, minced 1 tablespoon paprika 1 tablespoon chili powder PREPARATION: Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. Free Cooking Recipes Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue Category: Sauces Ingredients and Directions 1 c Strong black coffee 1 c Tomato catsup 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper 1 tb Salt 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce 1/4 c Butter or margerine 1 tb Sugar Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will make you throw rocks at steak! The BBQ Report Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious that anyone will guess your secret. Ingredients 3 cups of Dr. Pepper 2 tablespoons vegetable oil Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. Associated Content: The People's Media Company Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine 1/2 pound butter 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine 2 large white onions chopped fine 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce 1/2 dozen lemons 4 tablespoons salt 3 tablespoons black pepper 2 tablespoons chile powder 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce 2 tablespoons dry mustard 3 cloves garlic Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup and spices. Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. For mop sauce: 2 cups above sauce 2 cups water 2 cups cooking oil 1 cup vinegar Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.—Ralph M. Coble, 3559 Lawnview. 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. 10, col. 4: MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. 4 quarts bone stock 3 tablespoons salt 3 tablespoons dry mustard 2 tablespoons garlic powder 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf 2 tablespoons chili powder 3 tablespoons paprika 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce 2 pints Worcestershire sauce 1 pint vinegar 1 pint oil 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup—buy good stout beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, it's delicious. 3 bay leaves Salt and pepper 2 quarts bone stock 6 pounds beef brisket Mop Sauce Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also serve this with Barbecue Sauce. (...) Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine in association with Pocket Books. (More on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:00:56 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: "It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 19:05:50 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:05:50 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: A<705370.32611.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent insights all around. "Ioma" does seem to mean something like "full" or "abundant," but I see no evidence that "teas ioma" was a common or even an existing collocation, much less that there was any plausible way that it could have been transformed into "jasm" or "jism." Incidentally, I think it's unfortunate that Cassidy's book so far seems to have been reviewed only by those who have no knowledge in the area. I know that debunking is not as rewarding as reviewing a more substantive work, but it would be a public service if someone could publish a review taking a less credulous approach. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:12:49 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:12:49 EDT Subject: "scream" = 'makes me laugh' Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/07 12:22:09 PM, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > Have you met her?  She's a scream.  Or, That movie is a scream. > Documented in slang dictionaries. How far should dicitonaries of record go in documenting slang uses?As with trademarks and compounds, it seems to be up to the editors, based on (1) frequency, (2) opaqueness, and (3) general utility. This is opaque enough that I'd think a lexicographer might well consider it. If "gray rape" could be construed as 'rape of(by?) old people' "She's a scream could easily be read to mean "She's frightening," though no native speaker of current American English would ever do that. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 16 19:21:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Did the attack occur in a larvatory? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. > >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:23:37 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:23:37 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/07 2:36:40 PM, bapopik at GMAIL.COM writes: > I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at > the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. > Sounds more like something for DARE than for OED/ ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 16 19:28:05 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:28:05 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? In-Reply-To: <200710161836.l9GAnrsX003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll > probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' > comments appreciated. Here's a nice quote for "sop": An Eastern man, a "tenderfoot," on one occasion asked some one to pass the gravy, whereupon the bouncer placed his pistol on the table, and quietly remarked "any man as calls sop gravy, has got to eat dust or apologize". It appears in Libby Custer's book "Following the Guidon". Libby being the wife of General George Armstrong Custer. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ > ... > Entry from October 16, 2007 > Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) > Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as > basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. > President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton > (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, > but Jetton didn't invent "mop." > > The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, > Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and > salt. > > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Mop from Derrick Riches > The baste of Barbecue > When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite > Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of > people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that > measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of > this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the > meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, > "mop". > > Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to > mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it > easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another > kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over > meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it > this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. > > A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are > thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. > > Food Network > Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom > Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay > Episode: Austin (Texas) > > During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas > Style Mop Sauce. > > 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers > 6 ounces yellow mustard > 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce > 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce > 4 ounces honey > Pinch hot chile flakes > 4 ounces wine vinegar > 1 white onion chopped > 2 lemons, sliced > > Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 > minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes > during cooking. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP SAUCE > 1/2 c. tomato sauce > 1 c. strong black coffee > 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1 tbsp. sugar > 1 tbsp. salt > 1/2 c. butter > > Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter > is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for > flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE > 2 c. beef stock > 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard > 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar > 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco > Black pepper > 1 tsp. chili powder > 1 1/2 tsp. salt > 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1/3 c. oil > 1/2 tsp. garlic powder > 1 tsp. paprika > Crushed red pepper (to taste) > > Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce >> From Paul Williams > Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on > beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't > have to worry about it burning. > > INGREDIENTS: > 2 cups vinegar > 1 cup olive oil > 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce > 1/2 cup water > 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half > 2 tablespoons hot sauce > 6 bay leaves, crushed > 2 cloves garlic, minced > 1 tablespoon paprika > 1 tablespoon chili powder > > PREPARATION: > Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from > heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. > > Free Cooking Recipes > Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue > Category: Sauces > > Ingredients and Directions > 1 c Strong black coffee > 1 c Tomato catsup > 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper > 1 tb Salt > 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce > 1/4 c Butter or margerine > 1 tb Sugar > > Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring > frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat > before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn > them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong > for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better > it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will > make you throw rocks at steak! > > The BBQ Report > Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce > > Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. > > The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something > that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The > oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious > that anyone will guess your secret. > > Ingredients > 3 cups of Dr. Pepper > 2 tablespoons vegetable oil > Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. > > Associated Content: The People's Media Company > Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) > > 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: > COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE > 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine > 1/2 pound butter > 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine > 2 large white onions chopped fine > 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles > 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce > 1/2 dozen lemons > 4 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons black pepper > 2 tablespoons chile powder > 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce > 2 tablespoons dry mustard > 3 cloves garlic > > Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil > garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup > and spices. > Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. > > For mop sauce: > 2 cups above sauce > 2 cups water > 2 cups cooking oil > 1 cup vinegar > > Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.—Ralph M. Coble, > 3559 Lawnview. > > 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook > Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. > 10, col. 4: > MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS > Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. > Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime > store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are > constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop > concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. > > 4 quarts bone stock > 3 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons dry mustard > 2 tablespoons garlic powder > 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf > 2 tablespoons chili powder > 3 tablespoons paprika > 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce > 2 pints Worcestershire sauce > 1 pint vinegar > 1 pint oil > 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate > > Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup—buy good stout > beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other > ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. > > (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) > TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE > This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts > but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it > as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, > it's delicious. > > 3 bay leaves > Salt and pepper > 2 quarts bone stock > 6 pounds beef brisket > Mop Sauce > > Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is > simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to > the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in > your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter > of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about > every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by > forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure > to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good > natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of > chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also > serve this with Barbecue Sauce. > (...) > Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter > Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine > in association with Pocket Books. > > (More on website -- B.P.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~Will Salmon ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 20:04:26 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:04:26 -0400 Subject: Digitization of The Guardian (1821-2003), The Observer (1791-2003), Playboy, Rolling Stone Message-ID: Olive is working with ProQuest for The Guardian and The Observer?...Knowing ProQuest, this stuff won't be available until a year after ProQuest says it will be available...Bondi Digital Publishing also did The New Yorker...O.T.: The AOL homepage still is cooperating with "Ellen (DeGeneres) Across America," and today's subject is the "hot dog." ... ... ... http://www.sys-con.com/read/443928.htm The Guardian and The Observer Added to ProQuest Historical Newspapers(TM) By: PR Newswire Oct. 15, 2007 09:27 PM ANN ARBOR, Mich., Oct. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- The Guardian and The Observer will be the first British titles to join the acclaimed ProQuest Historical Newspapers(TM). More than 212 years of continuous, independent reporting that covers the best in arts, politics, business, and sports will be searchable for the first time. Digitised by Olive Software, Inc. and converted to ProQuest Historical Newspaper's specifications, the digital archive will include the Guardian (1821-2003) and The Observer (1791-2003). ... ... ... http://books.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1365180.php/Archives_of_Playboy_and_Rolling_Stone_now_available Archives of Playboy and Rolling Stone now available By M&C News Oct 15, 2007, 10:39 GMT That's right. Ever just want to get a hold of some issue of an old magazine and reread the articles you remember? Well now you can. Now with the help of Bondi Digital Publishing—a company which develops and publishes a line of searchable digital archives of print magazines people will be able find the article they are looking for. Right now Bondi is featuring Bondi Digital Publishing's Cover to Cover series of Rolling Stone: The First 40 Years and Playboy: The 50s. These will both be available Nov 2 and in bookstores. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Oct 16 20:22:05 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:22:05 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161733.l9GAkUEb032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/16/07, James Smith wrote: > > It's not clear what the (t) in m-w's pronunciation > means - is the 't' optional, or does this indicate > placing the tongue against the teeth but going to the > 's' without pronouncing, or very weakly pronouncing, > the 't'? >From M-W's pronunciation guide: ---- http://www.m-w.com/help/pronguide.htm Parentheses are used in pronunciations to indicate that whatever is symbolized between them is present in some utterances but not in others; thus factory \'fak-t(&-)rE\ is pronounced both \'fak-t&-rE\ and \'fak-trE\, industry \'in-(")d&s-trE\ is pronounced both \'in-d&s-trE\ and \'in-"d&s-trE\. In some phonetic environments, as in fence \'fen(t)s\ and boil \'boi(&)l\, it may be difficult to determine whether the sound shown in parentheses is or is not present in a given utterance; even the usage of a single speaker may vary considerably. ---- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 21:06:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <200710161921.l9GAp6BY000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain amount of confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) -Wilson On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: Re: Say what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Did the attack occur in a larvatory? > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 > >From: Wilson Gray > > > >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > > > >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > > > >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. > > > >-Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Oct 16 21:22:45 2007 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:22:45 -0500 Subject: AS indexing In-Reply-To: <4714F913.8030000@moreheadstate.edu> Message-ID: I use LLBA (Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts) which indexes AS as well as other journals I'm interested in. On 10/16/07 12:46 PM, "Terry Irons" wrote: > Colleagues, > > I was doing a bibliography search using the MLA index yesterday, and I > noticed that the search was not returning an information about articles > published in American Speech for 2005 to the present. Does anyone know > whether MLA stopped indexing American Speech or who bibliography other > than MLA does index the journal? > > -- > Virtually, Terry > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu > Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 > Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 21:49:04 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:49:04 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? In-Reply-To: <200710161836.l9GAp672000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes: "Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to mop your meat." There is nothing "today" about this tool. As long as i've been living, there has been available at any well-stocked grocery store, at least as far north as Missouri, a dish-washing tool known as a "dish mop." The dish mop, as noted above, looks like a miniature kitchen(-floor) mop. In my experience, it is the dish mop that is the mop of choice WRT cooking, especially WRT barbecue. Since the dish mop is primarily used as a tool with which to wash dishes - I myself have personally used many dish mops in the course of my life, both in washing dishes and in barbecuing - it is a only newly-bought dish mop is used in cooking. WRT the LBJ barbegue story, under the conditions described, Jetton may very well have used an actual kitchen mop. But the claim that this is the origin of the cooking term "mop" is laughable. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > MOP SAUCE--14,800 Google hits > MOPPING SAUCE--2,880 Google hits > MOPPIN SAUCE--1,350 Google hits > > I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at > the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. > > Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll > probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' > comments appreciated. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ > ... > Entry from October 16, 2007 > Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) > Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as > basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. > President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton > (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, > but Jetton didn't invent "mop." > > The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, > Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and > salt. > > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Mop from Derrick Riches > The baste of Barbecue > When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite > Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of > people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that > measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of > this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the > meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, > "mop". > > Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to > mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it > easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another > kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over > meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it > this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. > > A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are > thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. > > Food Network > Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom > Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay > Episode: Austin (Texas) > > During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas > Style Mop Sauce. > > 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers > 6 ounces yellow mustard > 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce > 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce > 4 ounces honey > Pinch hot chile flakes > 4 ounces wine vinegar > 1 white onion chopped > 2 lemons, sliced > > Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 > minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes > during cooking. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP SAUCE > 1/2 c. tomato sauce > 1 c. strong black coffee > 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1 tbsp. sugar > 1 tbsp. salt > 1/2 c. butter > > Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter > is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for > flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE > 2 c. beef stock > 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard > 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar > 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco > Black pepper > 1 tsp. chili powder > 1 1/2 tsp. salt > 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1/3 c. oil > 1/2 tsp. garlic powder > 1 tsp. paprika > Crushed red pepper (to taste) > > Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce > From Paul Williams > Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on > beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't > have to worry about it burning. > > INGREDIENTS: > 2 cups vinegar > 1 cup olive oil > 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce > 1/2 cup water > 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half > 2 tablespoons hot sauce > 6 bay leaves, crushed > 2 cloves garlic, minced > 1 tablespoon paprika > 1 tablespoon chili powder > > PREPARATION: > Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from > heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. > > Free Cooking Recipes > Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue > Category: Sauces > > Ingredients and Directions > 1 c Strong black coffee > 1 c Tomato catsup > 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper > 1 tb Salt > 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce > 1/4 c Butter or margerine > 1 tb Sugar > > Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring > frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat > before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn > them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong > for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better > it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will > make you throw rocks at steak! > > The BBQ Report > Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce > > Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. > > The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something > that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The > oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious > that anyone will guess your secret. > > Ingredients > 3 cups of Dr. Pepper > 2 tablespoons vegetable oil > Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. > > Associated Content: The People's Media Company > Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) > > 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: > COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE > 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine > 1/2 pound butter > 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine > 2 large white onions chopped fine > 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles > 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce > 1/2 dozen lemons > 4 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons black pepper > 2 tablespoons chile powder > 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce > 2 tablespoons dry mustard > 3 cloves garlic > > Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil > garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup > and spices. > Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. > > For mop sauce: > 2 cups above sauce > 2 cups water > 2 cups cooking oil > 1 cup vinegar > > Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.—Ralph M. Coble, > 3559 Lawnview. > > 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook > Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. > 10, col. 4: > MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS > Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. > Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime > store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are > constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop > concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. > > 4 quarts bone stock > 3 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons dry mustard > 2 tablespoons garlic powder > 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf > 2 tablespoons chili powder > 3 tablespoons paprika > 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce > 2 pints Worcestershire sauce > 1 pint vinegar > 1 pint oil > 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate > > Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup—buy good stout > beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other > ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. > > (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) > TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE > This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts > but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it > as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, > it's delicious. > > 3 bay leaves > Salt and pepper > 2 quarts bone stock > 6 pounds beef brisket > Mop Sauce > > Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is > simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to > the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in > your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter > of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about > every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by > forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure > to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good > natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of > chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also > serve this with Barbecue Sauce. > (...) > Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter > Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine > in association with Pocket Books. > > (More on website -- B.P.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 23:12:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:12:32 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 ... Watch the above ABC World News report on National Dictionary Day (today). There's a surprise appearance by a handsome ADS-L personality! It's a shoe-in that you'll enjoy the segment, where he gets free reign to speak about spelling. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Oct 16 23:16:45 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:16:45 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is this a joke? "Your search - http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 - did not match any documents. On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Barry Popik wrote: > http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Oct 16 23:21:31 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:21:31 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: So, not only is Ben Zimmer a brilliant researcher, writer, he is photogenic. To quote a famous? Texas researcher---"I hate that guy." :) Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Popik" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 > ... > Watch the above ABC World News report on National Dictionary Day > (today). There's a surprise appearance by a handsome ADS-L > personality! It's a shoe-in that you'll enjoy the segment, where he > gets free reign to speak about spelling. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 23:35:49 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:35:49 -0700 Subject: "yeah" Message-ID: Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." And regarding "Yay!": 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is hard to explain. JL --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 16 23:50:13 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:50:13 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from > somewhere. Thoughts? There are various hypotheses; obviously most of them are false. Speculation (I forget whose, not mine): "jism" from English dialect "chissom" = "sprout", "jasm" from "jism" by some unexplained(?) process. Speculation (mine): "jism" and "jasm" (and "jesum" too!) from the seldom-seen word "orgiasm". Speculation (mine): "jizzum" (maybe pseudo-Latinized) from (*)"jizz" or so, a humorous or dialectal version of "juice". Speculation (mine): "jism" OR "jasm" [whichever was first] > (*)"jism-jasm" or so [cf. "mish-mash", "jim-jams", "fiddle-faddle", etc.] > "jasm" OR "jism" [whichever wasn't first] And of course there's Cassidy's Irish derivation. Etc. Note that I do not insist that any of these notions is certain, or even highly probable. Perhaps some transitional form will show up to support one or the other. Maybe the truth is something nobody has thought of. It is my suspicion that the earlier sense was not "semen" but rather the abstract quality, say "vigor" or "spirit". Cf. "spunk", "mettle". Once a word is taken to mean specifically "semen", it would be hard to use it politely, but once (e.g.) "spunk" is established in a polite sense one need have no qualms about referring to one's child's spunk or one's mother's spunk, even if one is fully aware that "spunk" can mean "semen". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 17 01:16:16 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:16:16 -0500 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The message below is important, because Daniel Cassidy reserves special contempt for scholars who disagree with him without knowing Gaelic. Meanwhile, despite the deservedly negative evaluation of Cassidy's book, I'm reminded of the admonition not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book (e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). No doubt there's a lot of bathwater in his book. But if even a single one of Cassidy's numerous proposed etymologies turns out to be correct, his book will not be totally without value. Gerald Cohen On 10/16/07 12:19 PM, "David Bergdahl" wrote: > I sent some of our recent posts to a former colleague who's an Irish/Celtic > specialist (though not primarily a linguist). He writes: > > David: > > Forgive me if I have said this before. Daniel Cassidy's reputation is zilch > in Irish American scholarship. The two leading journals, NEW HIBERNIA > REVIEW and EIRE-IRELAND, have both rejected him. He takes such rejection > with vituperation. He's a credulous empire-builder. That does not mean > there is not much influence of spoken Irish (Gaelic) on spoken English. One > is the lenition of initial B's in some NYC place names, "Vrooklyn" for > "Brooklyn." As for vocabulary, slob and phony are pretty well accepted, I > think. > > There is other Irish influence not from spoken Irish. Stephen Foster was > Irish (and gay), and the words and music for "Dixie" were written by > Irishmen in New York. You probably know about the naughty implications of > the title "Dixie." > > None of this means Cassidy is right. > > Best, > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 01:41:38 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:41:38 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161750.l9GGHrXi003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:50:40 -0700 > From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tidal wave was the popular name in use when I was a > youth back in the 50's, but I think those in the know > have long eschewed this moniker for seismic sea wave. > I have no documentation, but I think 'tsunami' has > come into more widespread use in the past 50 years or > so, basically since the end of WWII because of the > more open exchange of scientific knowledge between > Japan and the west (and because 'tsunami' sounds less > mundane than 'seismic sea wave'). > > "Tidal wave: An erroneous syn. of both 'storm surge' > and 'tsunami'" American Geologic Institute Glossary > of Geology, 1980 > > > --- Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word >> around 30 years ago. >> I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", >> because I have never >> understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. > > > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > http://sims.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 02:30:50 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:30:50 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710162321.l9GKWAxG003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as well as to Ben. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 02:43:05 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:43:05 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <200710170110.l9H0wpE8003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/16/07, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > No doubt there's a lot of bathwater in his book. But if even a single one > of > Cassidy's numerous proposed etymologies turns out to be correct, his book > will not be totally without value. > (I have not read the book, though I have read some posts of his. For the following arithmetic I am assuming that David's correspondent's evaluation, and those of regular listies Wilson, John, Jonathan, Grant, and Doug (and possibly others I've missed) are correct.) Adding the large negative value of the baloney, spread of misinformation, and encouraging others in his own sort of cavalier attitude toward language, to the small positive value of any crumb of reality that may actually be in there, he still comes out with a large negative value, which may be visualized as down in a pit or neck-deep in B.S. And that's granting him the benefit of the doubt on anything that might be correct. If you fire a shotgun in the general direction of a rifle target, you may indeed score a few points and even a bulls-eye, but it's not by marksmanship. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 17 02:49:15 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:49:15 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170142.l9H0wpJC003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal wave, then. But the tide doesn't roar onto shores, destroying objects and creatures in the path. If you want to eliminate all the words with sounds that are unfriendly to AmE, you have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, knight, tse-tse...) BB Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 03:17:07 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710161702.l9GGHrL8003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree with you. If one party is drugged so that she is not only unable to give consent, but is also completely unaware of even being in a situation that normally requires consent, how can that be anything but plain,old rape, whether the people involved be siblings or total strangers? "Grey rape" sounds more like a situation in which a girl might say, "Iwas too drunk to know what he was doing to me" and the guy says, "I don't remember her saying no, but I was pretty drunk, myself." But this sort of thing is not made new by giving it a new name. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Sarah Lang wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sarah Lang > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone > who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my > understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink > with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, > acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If > that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke > to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- > rape" drunk was used. > > Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be > referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before > but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party > were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). > But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to > give consent. > > (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex > word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and > its meanings or usages justice.) > > S. > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles Doyle > > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------- > > > > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days > > ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging > > and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, > > at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the > > term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, > > possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? > > > > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the > > informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such > > a drug becomes a date rape. > > > > --Charlie > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > ---- Original message ---- > >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 > >> From: Barry Popik > >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >> ... > >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- > >> of-date-rape/ > >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm > >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? > >> By Sewell Chan > >> > >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex > >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a > >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. > >> "Are you talking about > >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. > >> > >> > >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New > >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls > >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing > >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted > >> what." > >> > >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. > >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this > >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of > >> "gray rape" — and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or > >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York > >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former > >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate > >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Wed Oct 17 03:22:49 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:22:49 EDT Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: I can't help thinking - if everyone would just behave themselves, there'd be no need for terms like this. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 17 03:49:45 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:49:45 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, and me, along with unnamed others. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 04:29:50 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:29:50 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710162335.l9GIREFv032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": Baker: I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! [forgotten passages] Want banana in it? Children: Well, I guess! We want the pat-a-cake That we like best! Yea, team! Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! Baker's man! Etc. But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was chatting about something or other: Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of my favorite tunes! -Wilson On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > And regarding "Yay!": > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > hard to explain. > > JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 04:28:48 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:28:48 -0400 Subject: Soppin' Sauce Message-ID: SOPPING SAUCE--357 Google hits SOPPIN SAUCE--282 Google hits SOP SAUCE--47 Google hits MOPPIN' AND SOPPIN' SAUCE--1 Google hit MOP AND SOP SAUCE--2 Google hits MOP & SOP SAUCE--4 Google hits SOPPIN' AND MOPPIN' SAUCE--1 Google hits SOP AND MOP SAUCE--0 Google hits SOP & MOP SAUCE--1 Google hit "Soppin' sauce" is of possible interest to OED and DARE. It is clearly less popular than "mop sauce." Basically, "soppin' sauce" is a thicker "mop sauce" or a thinner "barbecue sauce." My recent entry on this term is below. O.T.: If that ABC World News video link to "National Dictionary Day" didn't work out, just go directly to the ABC World News (with Charles Gibson) website. Click the link there...Why do dictionaries get a day, but hot dogs get an entire month? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/soppin_sauce_sopping_sauce_sop_sauce_moppin_soppin_sauce_mop_sop_sauce/ ... Soppin' sauce (also "sopping sauce" or "sop sauce") is, to some, just a Texas term for a type of barbecue sauce. A "mop sauce" is applied to marinate, tenderize and baste. Soppin' sauce is added during the last five minutes of cooking, or is served at the table like a barbecue sauce. Mop sauce is usually thinner than soppin' sauce; the soppin' sauce often has sugar and ketchup than would burn if applied to the meat too early during cooking. A few sauces are called "moppin' & soppin' sauce" or "mop & sop sauce," for use like a mop sauce, a sop sauce, and a barbecue table sauce. The ingredients—Worcestershire sauce, vinegar, hot red pepper, garlic, salt—are often similar in both "mop" and "sop" sauces. Some contend that there is basically no difference between the sauces, with the difference only in how the manufacturer chooses to label and sell the sauce. California Barbecue Association While the meat is cooking, use a mop or a baste A mop, and a sop are the same, just a difference in regional names. A mop or sop is a liquid that you put on the meat while it cooks. The mob or sop should contain only a little sugar (or tomato ketchup) as one containing much sugar will likely caramelize and turn black as the sugar burns and turns to carbon. A mop is applied with a brush, a little barbecue mop or from a spray bottle. If you use a spray bottle, remember to filter the liquid before you fill the bottle as particles (like black pepper) will likely clog the spray nozzle. A basting sauce is somewhat thicker than a mop or a sop and usually has a sugar or ketchup base. Basting sauces are usually reserved for the last fifteen minutes of cooking or are applied to the meat after it is removed from the smoker. Bar-B-Q Sauce Recipes TEXAS SOPPIN' SAUCE 2 Garlic cloves; roughly cut 1/2 t Salt 1 Small dried, hot red pepper 2 T Brown sugar 1 T Worcestershire sauce 1 c Cider vinegar 1/4 t Ground cumin 2 c Ketchup 1/2 t Anise seeds Hot pepper sauce, to taste Combine all ingredients through vinegar in the container of a blender or food processor. Process until smooth. Transfer mixture to a medium saucepan and add the ketchup. Heat to boiling, reduce heat. Simmer uncovered 30 minutes. Add hot pepper sauce to taste. Makes about 3 cups. [From: Cooking With Fire and Smoke by Phillip Stephen Schulz] Texas Beef Council 6666 Soppin' Sauce Prep: 10 minutes Cook: 1 hour Servings: Makes approximately 6 cups 1 cup water 1 16 ounce can tomato paste 5 tsp. chili powder 1-1/2 tsp. black pepper 1/2 cup catsup 1/2 tsp. garlic salt 3 Tbsp. Worcestershire sauce 1/3 cup cider vinegar 1/3 cup lemon juice 1/2 cup margarine or butter 1/4 tsp. cayenne 6 Tbsp. honey 6 Tbsp. brown sugar 1/2 tsp. salt Combine all ingredients in a medium sauce pan. Bring to a boil, reduce heat and simmer one hour, stirring occasionally. If used as a basting sauce, baste meat with sauce when almost done. Can also be served as a sauce with the meal. Great with ribs and brisket. Rare Finds Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Unlike a 'mopping sauce' which is used for slow roasting, 'sopping sauce' is used on quicker cooking items. And unlike BBQ sauce which is fairly thick and added right at the end of cooking, 'sopping sauce' should be applied liberally with a string brush to literally 'sop' the meat throughout the cooking process. Sopping sauces are one of the south's best kept BBQ secrets. Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce will make your grilled steaks, burgers, and chops so delicious your grill will be open all year long! Fischer & Wieser Specialty Foods (Fredericksburg, TX) Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Our Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce is one of Texas' best kept secrets. This blend will make your grilled steaks, burgers, chops and grilled game so delicious your grill will be open all year long! Texas On The Plate - The New Texas Cuisine Grilled Ribeye Steak with Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce You will become the King, or Queen as the case may be, of Steak Grilling to your family and friends when you serve them these melt-in-your-mouth-delicious steaks. To serve 4 4 (12-ounce) ribeye steaks 1 cup Texas on the Plate Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Freshly cracked black pepper 4 (1/2-inch thick) slices of real butter (no cheating with margarine!) Heat a gas char grill to medium-hot or build a good charcoal fire and let it burn down to where the coals are covered with white ash and glowing red underneath. Trim excess fat from the edges of the steaks. Pour the Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce in a non-aluminum baking dish large enough to hold the four steaks in a single layer. Arrange the steaks in the pan, coating the bottoms with the baste. Turn the steaks over and coat the other side. Set steaks aside in the baste while you heat the grill or build your fire. When the grill is ready, slap those steaks on the grill rack and grind a liberal amount of black pepper over the top. Grill to desired degree of doneness, peppering the opposite side when you turn the steaks. Just before you take the steaks off the fire, lay one of the butter slices on top of each steak and cook just long enough for the butter to almost melt. Transfer steaks to serving plates and enjoy! Uncle Phaedrus, Finder of Lost Recipes Mop and Sop Sauce 1 1/2 cups cider vinegar 1 cup ketchup 1/2 teaspoon or more Tabasco Sauce 1 teaspoon or more chili powder 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/3 cup brown sugar 2 tablespoons Worcestershire sauce Instructions: Combine all ingredients in a sauce pan and bring to a boil; stir occasionally. Adjust seasonings. Mop this sauce on grilled meat 10 minutes before it is fully cooked. Reboil sauce and serve for sopping at the table Sycamore Hill Farms (Quitman, GA) Sycamore Red Mop & Sop Available in: Pints & 1 Gallon containers Not everyone likes mustard, so we came up with a great Red sauce for the table and grill that has a taste you'll keep coming back for. It's a ketchup style sauce with the fullness of Apple Cider Vinegar, Molasses and Worcestershire sauce. I've even seen a great-neice of mine with a small bowl dipping her finger in it and eating straight from the dish. We call it Sycamore Red and it's a Mop & Sop sauce too! Most folks down here think that if it's red, it's BBQ sauce. The sauce is not hot but might have a light spicy kick from the black pepper we use in it. Associated Content: The People's Media Company Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 2 Soppin' Sauce (Video) 8 June 1972, Vidette-Messenger (Valparaiso, IN), pg. 3, col. 1: ROTISSERIE BEEF With Soppin' Sauce 4 to 6 pound rolled rib roast 1 cup ketchup 1 cup Worcestershire sauce 1 cup strong coffee 1/2 cup butter or margarine 2 tablespoons freshly ground pepper 1 tablespoon sugar 1 tablespoon salt 1 February 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Legislator Wants Chili for Official State Dish" by Frank X. Tolbert, Section D, pg. 3: "I would like to serve an old-fashion 'sopping sauce,' made from the juices dripping from the beef and wit ha lot of black pepper sn other spices and a little vinegar. The sopping kind of a barbecue sauce. It's good just soaked in biscuits or light bread." 17 February 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: However, there is another sign which warns that diabetics or folks with stomach ulcers had better not try the barbecue sauce on the tables. It's an old-fashion sopping sauce, although maybe with too much chili powder accents. Fairly peppery but seemed harmless to me. 8 July 1987, Frederick (MD) News-Post, pg. C1, col. 2: Following is a recipe from Courtenay Beinhorn's book "Beinhorn's Mesquite Cookery." DOWN-EAT MOPPIN' AND SOPPIN' SAUCE 1 cup cider vinegar 2 teaspoons ground red pepper 1 teaspoon ground black pepper 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 teaspoon safflower oil Combine all the ingredients in a bowl and mix well. Pour into a shake bottle. Makes 1 cup. 7 June 1990, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 6, pg. 1, cols. 2-3: Certain outdoor cooks down South make a distinction between the moppin' sauce and the soppin' sauce. You use moppin' sauce to marinate, tenderize and baste. It can vary from complicated to plain (beer), but its job is to flavor the meat and keep it moist. Sugar and ketchup would only burn over the long haul, so you leave them out. Schlesinger and Willoughby say a typical recipe might be 1/2 gallon vinegar, 2 warm beers, 1/4 cup cayenne and 2 secret ingredients. Soppin' sauce can be as basic as vinegar, salt and pepper, but as fancy as a concoction of 30 ingredients, and likely will get more sugary and ketchup-y. The main thing is, it shouldn't hide the smokey taste of the meat. You smooth it on in the last five minutes of cooking so it won't burn, and serve it on the side. For common folk, most sauces are all-purpose, too. What works for spareribs usually works on beef, chicken and shrimp. And don't let the purists bother you: Moppin' usually works fine for soppin' and vice-versa. Just warm it up. Google Groups: rec.crafts.textiles.quilting Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles.quilting From: "Phyllis Andersen" Date: 2000/01/14 Subject: Trek to Tucson-Day 2 even longer I found some Side Saddle Sopping Sauce for my DH to use on the BBQ. Low Carb Friends 03-29-2003, 07:07 PM Though this isn't a recipe, I have found that the "sopping sauce", a thinner type of bbq sauce, often makes a really good low carb substitute for regular bbq sauce. Of course, as always (LOL), check the label, but there should be at least one variety of this at your local grocer! Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Greg Leman" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:24:42 GMT Local: Tues, Nov 25 2003 8:24 am Subject: Re: Jamaican Jerk Sauce You'll have to look pretty hard to find something like an NC soppin sauce. San Diego Reader Delayed Whomp By Naomi Wise Published January 6, 2005 (...) Slopping on barbecue sauce as a marinade before smoking is a sure sign of inauthenticity, and a near-certain route to a nasty layer of charred sugar besmirching the surface of the meat. Texas barbecuers (especially white guys) often use a wet marinade or baste, which they call "mopping sauce," and in Kansas City, some "Qs" immerse their pork ribs in a savory spiced brine, but most southerners rub the meat with a dry-spice blend (homemade or store-bought)—salt, pepper, paprika, plus dry mustard, garlic powder, whatever. After that comes the sauce. If you travel through the South, every hundred miles or so you hit a different regional sauce, plus all the individual variations thereof. South Carolina's mustard-based sauce is thin and yellow, Memphis's sauce is red, light, and tangy, and rural Tennessee's can be incendiary. Louisiana's runs sweet and lemony, and the sweet-sour, tomatoey Texas sauce (called "sopping sauce" by the natives) is the model for the bottled sauces in the supermarket—and for the sauces served at most California barbecues. San Diego Reader Where Smoking Is Good By Naomi Wise Published January 18, 2007 (...) Often, Southerners rub barbecue meats with an aromatic spice mixture before cooking; they may also baste during cooking with a strongly seasoned liquid (as in your typical Texas "mop and sop"—the mop is the baste, the sop is the thicker sauce applied just at serving, so the sugars won't blacken in the heat of the pit). (Trademark) Word Mark SOPPIN SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Bar-B-Q sauce. FIRST USE: 20040304. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040320 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78379039 Filing Date March 4, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Trinity Treats, LLC Ruth C McRae Celeste Caldwell Rochelle Chiles PARTNERSHIP LOUISIANA 9095 Hosston-Vivian Road Vivian LOUISIANA 71082 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 29, 2005 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Wed Oct 17 04:33:09 2007 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael H Covarrubias) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:33:09 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170249.l9GL2aXf003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I grew up saying tidal wave and I still use it more often than tsunami (but it has nothing to do with evil phonotactics)-- However for some reason--as a [aI] > [^I]/ __[t] raiser I also applied the raising to 'tidal' in this phrase but not in "tide" or even in "tidal bore". Perhaps I modeled it after 'title'? Any other evidence of this "hyper" canadian raising before a voiced dental? Michael Quoting Benjamin Barrett : > > No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal > wave, then. But the tide doesn't roar onto > shores, destroying objects and creatures in the > path. If you want to eliminate all the words > with sounds that are unfriendly to AmE, you > have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, > knight, tse-tse...) BB > > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who > > knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? > > volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the > > ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think > > it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent > > letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 05:04:06 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:04:06 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710170231.l9GLOWhq000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree. Ben, I was much impressed, especially considering your youth. Are you old enough to have your driver's license, yet? :-) The baby-faced look has its ups and downs. I myself was still being carded at the age of 36. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as > well as to Ben. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Wed Oct 17 05:16:14 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:16:14 -0500 Subject: Spell the American way on National Dictionary Day Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Spell the American way on National Dictionary Day October 16 is the birthday of the American lexicographer Noah Webster. It’s also “National Dictionary Day.” In his own time Webster was most famous for the blue-backed spelling books from which American children learned their ABC’s, but thanks to the popularity of his 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language, his name also became synonymous with dictionary. This year, to celebrate National Dictionary Day, the editors at the Oxford American Dictionary have decided to honor the great American lexicographer by revising the spelling of two words to reflect the latest American spelling trends. According to ABC News, after reviewing 2 billion words of contemporary American prose, Oxford’s lexicographers have determined that since 49% of Americans write vocal chords and 46% choose free reign, these innovative spellings will now appear alongside the more conventional vocal cords and free rein. This decision to recognize variant spellings, like a president pardoning murderers and White House staffers who lie to grand juries, is likely to anger purists who are convinced that the job of dictionaries is to propose language laws and see that others obey them. But lexicographers aren’t language cops. Their job is to record English as people use it, not to impose their idea of how it should be used on the rest of us. That very descriptive job description won’t silence the loud opposition that vocal chords is likely to produce. There will be letters in the Times from long-retired British colonels who will pop their monocles while admonishing Oxford for giving Americans free reign over English, thereby violating the dictionary-maker’s Hippocratic oath as stated by their own great lexicographer, Samuel Johnson, while on the other side of the pond high school teachers whose job, as defined by the federal government, is to leave no child behind, will campaign to ban such outlandish spellings from standardized tests and they’ll tut tut that that poor old Mr. Webster must be spinning in his grave. Neither the colonels nor the teachers will be correct. . . . to find out why, read the rest of this post on The Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 17 01:53:43 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:53:43 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an >etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book I agree with this approach. However I suggest that while finding a plausible candidate etymon is easy (and sometimes fun) it is very different from demonstrating a real historical connection! >(e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). Ah, now here I can contribute an etymon ... with (AFAIK) just as much solid corroboration as the "death-cap" hypothesis! _Eastern Europe_ ("Lonely Planet" Phrasebook) (4th ed., 2007): p. 437: << ["Slovene": "in the bar"] What would you like? Kaj bos^? .... kai bosh [s^ = s-with-hacek] >> The semantic development is obvious ("what will you have" > "what have you" > "whatchamacallit"/"whatever") and it accounts not only for "put the kibosh on it" = "put the whatever on it" but also for both "that's the real kibosh" = "that's the real whatever" and "that's just a lot of kibosh" = "that's just a lot of whatever". Perhaps we can thank some forgotten Slovenian bartender in London, ca. 1800. Or maybe the expression was picked up by reporters covering the Congress of Laibach in 1821. No doubt mainstream lexicographers (most of whom speak _no Slovene at all_) will pooh-pooh this etymology. But it's so obvious! (^_^) -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Oct 17 10:14:44 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:14:44 -0500 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahhh, but if everyone just behaved themselves it would be the end of our legal system, not a bad thing, but think of the unemployment! Your Name wrote: > I can't help thinking - if everyone would just behave themselves, there'd be > no need for terms like this. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- “Wars begin where you will, but they do not end where you please.” Machiavelli ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 11:54:50 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:54:50 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would have thought that I'd be mentioned in an article about the sport of antedating. For the record, I was the one who found the 1860 citation for "Windy City," not Barry (although Barry was certainly the one who earlier disproved the Dana story). Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer [bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The competitive sport of antedating Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, and me, along with unnamed others. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 17 12:13:46 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:13:46 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: Hey, y'all-- I wasn't suggesting that drugged-stranger rape is something less heinous than plain old rape. I was just wondering how common it is to refer to DSR as "date rape"! It's that philological thing we do . . . . --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:17:07 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > >I agree with you. If one party is drugged so that she is not only unable to give consent, but is also completely unaware of even being in a situation that normally requires consent, how can that be anything but plain, old rape, whether the people involved be siblings or total strangers? > >"Grey rape" sounds more like a situation in which a girl might say, "Iwas too drunk to know what he was doing to me" and the guy says, "I don't remember her saying no, but I was pretty drunk, myself." But this sort of thing is not made new by giving it a new name. > >-Wilson > >On 10/16/07, Sarah Lang wrote: >> >> I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone >> who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my >> understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink >> with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, >> acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If >> that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke >> to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- >> rape" drunk was used. >> >> Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be >> referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before >> but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party >> were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). >> But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to >> give consent. >> >> (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex >> word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and >> its meanings or usages justice.) >> >> S. >> >> On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: >> > >> > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? >> > >> > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such a drug becomes a date rape. >> > >> > --Charlie >> > ____________________________________________________________ >> > >> > ---- Original message ---- >> >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >> >> From: Barry Popik >> >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > >> >> ... >> >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- >> >> of-date-rape/ >> >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >> >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >> >> By Sewell Chan >> >> >> >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex >> >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a >> >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. >> >> "Are you talking about >> >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. >> >> >> >> >> >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New >> >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls >> >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing >> >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted >> >> what." >> >> >> >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. >> >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this >> >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of >> >> "gray rape" — and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or >> >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York >> >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former >> >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate >> >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 17 12:15:34 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:15:34 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the article: "Barry Popik, a former Manhattan traffic court judge who now lives in Texas, holds the world heavyweight belt in significant antedatings. By finding an example of Chicago being called the "Windy City" dating from 1860, he disproved the popular legend that Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined by New York Sun editor Charles A. Dana, pooh-poohing Chicago's ability to put on the 1893 Columbian Exposition." What, the world heavyweight belt for a mere 33-year antedating? What about my "piss-house", 1665, antedating 1942? Just as significant. (And who says antedating is a competitive sport?) Joel At 10/16/2007 11:49 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, >Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > >http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > >Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, >and me, along with unnamed others. > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 17 12:18:32 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:18:32 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms "lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, but confusion did occur. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) > >-Wilson > >On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >> >> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >> >> --Charlie >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> ---- Original message ---- >> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >> >From: Wilson Gray >> > >> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >> > >> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >> > >> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. >> > >> >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 17 14:47:39 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:47:39 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710170429.l9GL2agn003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ECCO and EEBO overwhelmingly show "Yea" in biblical contexts, usu. meaning "yes indeed!" or "moreover" rather than as an offhand "yes." Why this should be so is puzzling. Can it be that modern "yeah" really is just (or mostly) a recent apocope of "yes"? This is hard for me to believe. "Yeah" just seems too fundamental a part of English. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": Baker: I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! [forgotten passages] Want banana in it? Children: Well, I guess! We want the pat-a-cake That we like best! Yea, team! Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! Baker's man! Etc. But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was chatting about something or other: Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of my favorite tunes! -Wilson On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > And regarding "Yay!": > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > hard to explain. > > JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 16:42:12 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:42:12 -0400 Subject: "Vocal cords"? Message-ID: I've long - ever since I learned to read and spell back in the 'Forties - been under the impression that the only way to spell "vocal chords" was "vocal chords." At some more recent time, like the 'Eighties, I got the impression that "cords" was a technical spelling peculiar to the writings of linguists. I am amazed to learn that, until now, "cords" was considered to be the only "correct" spelling, despite its extreme rarity, even in technical writing. Who knew? OTOH, "free _reign_"? WTF?! I had no idea that this variant even existed before I saw the Dictionary Day film. As the late, great Richard Prior put it, "Unreal. An' I ain't gawin' faw it." Maybe I need to spin' mo' time down own dih cowna axin' niggaz how tuh spayl shit. Reading's obviously a waste of time. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 16:44:46 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:44:46 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <20071017081832.IDB02140@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8:43 AM -0400 10/17/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, >but confusion did occur. > For the science teachers' sake, I hope the confusion was caught in time... LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >>From: Wilson Gray >> >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >>> >>> --Charlie >>> _____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> ---- Original message ---- >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >>> >From: Wilson Gray >>> > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >>> > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >>> > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses >>>the singular like a non-count noun. >>> > >>> >-Wilson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 17 16:47:57 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:47:57 -0400 Subject: Wikipedian truthiness In-Reply-To: <200709260402.l8PKnLX3019529@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Somebody else may have beaten me to this, but Wikipedia's featured article today is the entry on truthiness, which includes much discussion of ADS's WotY designation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:01:27 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170249.l9H1MsV3032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we don't park on it. Somewhere there's a list of these. We can live with tsunami. I wonder which word most Americans would choose. I wonder how many words in English are out there that are not pronounced in an English friendly way. You seem to think lots. But I think we Englishize them, like the way "t" was dropped by m-w.com for saying tsunami. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:49:15 -0700 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal wave, then. But the tide > doesn't roar onto shores, destroying objects and creatures in the path. > If you want to eliminate all the words with sounds that are unfriendly > to AmE, you have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, knight, tse-tse...) BB > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:22:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:22:59 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <200710170711.l9GL2ak9003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) -Wilson On 10/16/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Cassidy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an > >etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book > > I agree with this approach. However I suggest that while finding a > plausible candidate etymon is easy (and sometimes fun) it is very > different from demonstrating a real historical connection! > > >(e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). > > Ah, now here I can contribute an etymon ... with (AFAIK) just as much > solid corroboration as the "death-cap" hypothesis! > > _Eastern Europe_ ("Lonely Planet" Phrasebook) (4th ed., 2007): p. 437: > > << > > ["Slovene": "in the bar"] > > What would you like? > Kaj bos^? .... kai bosh > > [s^ = s-with-hacek] > > >> > > The semantic development is obvious ("what will you have" > "what > have you" > "whatchamacallit"/"whatever") and it accounts not only > for "put the kibosh on it" = "put the whatever on it" but also for > both "that's the real kibosh" = "that's the real whatever" and > "that's just a lot of kibosh" = "that's just a lot of whatever". > > Perhaps we can thank some forgotten Slovenian bartender in London, > ca. 1800. Or maybe the expression was picked up by reporters covering > the Congress of Laibach in 1821. > > No doubt mainstream lexicographers (most of whom speak _no Slovene at > all_) will pooh-pooh this etymology. But it's so obvious! (^_^) > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:24:06 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:24:06 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710170504.l9H1Msin032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 billion. I can't guess your dialect. It's the same as mine, but mine is typical media. I didn't hear any awe-dropping or r-dropping or I-dropping as well. I did hear ~eeng rather than ~ing, but that is common. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:04:06 -0400 > From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree. Ben, I was much impressed, especially considering your youth. > Are you old enough to have your driver's license, yet? :-) The > baby-faced look has its ups and downs. I myself was still being carded > at the age of 36. > > -Wilson > > On 10/16/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as >> well as to Ben. >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:41:51 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:41:51 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710171447.l9HAlDVW004972@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Amen" to that! Now, why is it that the originally simpler form, "yea," was more formal than the original compound, "yea swa"? I don't even have a WAG, a joke, or an anecdote for that one. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ECCO and EEBO overwhelmingly show "Yea" in biblical contexts, usu. meaning "yes indeed!" or "moreover" rather than as an offhand "yes." > > Why this should be so is puzzling. Can it be that modern "yeah" really is just (or mostly) a recent apocope of "yes"? > > This is hard for me to believe. "Yeah" just seems too fundamental a part of English. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > > Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I > remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": > > Baker: > I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! > [forgotten passages] > Want banana in it? > > Children: > Well, I guess! > We want the pat-a-cake > That we like best! > Yea, team! > Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! > Baker's man! > Etc. > > But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind > between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling > and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the > connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the > connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was > chatting about something or other: > > Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." > > Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" > > Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" > > The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of > my favorite tunes! > > -Wilson > > > On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > > > And regarding "Yay!": > > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > > hard to explain. > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 18:45:23 2007 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:45:23 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <82745f630710171022s69e29414v51c04bcfa3897ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from > Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I > know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) > It's hard to argue with that logic! -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 19:46:30 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:46:30 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <47165843.10705@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 2:45 PM -0400 10/17/07, Alice Faber wrote: >Wilson Gray wrote: >>Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from >>Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I >>know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) >> > >It's hard to argue with that logic! > In that case, I think we have to regard "kibosh" as a scribal error for what should have been rendered as "kibbish". Maybe this is all revealed in the new book on Yiddish reviewed in today's Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/books/17grimes.html?_r=1&ref=books&oref=slogin). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 20:08:44 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:08:44 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710170429.l9H1Msgr032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., opposed to nays (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. m a m On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 17 20:03:11 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:03:11 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710171724.l9HFjNhq021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 > billion. I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview that aired). More here: http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 19:42:09 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:42:09 -0400 Subject: Denver Sandwich (1903); Western Sandwich (1908); Manhattan Sandwich (1909) Message-ID: DARE has "Denver Sandwich," and I'm told to look at its entry for "western sandwich." I don't know what that looks like and hope this helps. ... Surprisingly, I didn't find much help in Chronicling America (1900-1910). I did find one New York Tribune hit there that didn't really apply. Chronicling America has the 1900-1910 New York Tribune? Does the ProQuest NY Tribune version have a "Denver Sandwich" or "Western Sandwich"? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/western_sandwich_denver_sandwich_denver_omelet/ ... Entry from October 17, 2007 Western Sandwich (Denver Sandwich; Denver Omelet) A "Western sandwich" (also called a "Denver sandwich" or "Denver omelet") usually consists of an omelet with ham, onions, and green pepper, served between two slices of (usually toasted) bread. Earlier version of "ham toast" and "ham and egg on toast" were served in America (the East as well as the West) in the 19th century. It is claimed (see below, in 1954) that Denver restaurateur Albert A. McVittie invented the "Denver sandwich" in Denver in 1907, but the "Denver sandwich" appears in print at least as early as 1903. McVittie (who also served as president of the National Restaurant Association) appears in many newspaper articles before the 1950s, but there is no mention of the "Denver sandwich" in those articles. M. D. Looney (see below, in 1950) is another Denver 1907 claimant. It is also claimed (see below, in 1973) that the "Denver sandwich" was invented at Denver's Taber Hotel. The sandwich was called a "Western Sandwich" as early as 1908, cited in a San Antonio newspaper. A "Manhattan Sandwich" (cited from 1909) contained fried egg, minced ham, and onion. Wikipedia: Omelette An omelette or omlet is a preparation of beaten egg cooked with butter or oil in a frying pan, usually folded around a filling such as cheese, vegetables, meat, or some combination of the above. Gourmet cook Julia Child famously described an omelette as soft-cooked scrambled eggs wrapped in an envelope of firmly-cooked scrambled eggs. Many variations exist. (...) A Western omelette, also known as a Denver omelette, is an omelette sometimes filled with diced ham, onions, and green bell peppers, though there are many variations on fillings. Often served in the midwestern United States and sometimes has a topping of cheese and a sidedish of hashbrowns or fried potatoes. Food Timeline "Western. A sandwich composed of an omelet with green pepper, chopped ham, and onions on white bread or toast. It is sometimes called a "western omelet" (which first appeared in print in 1935; "western" in 1951) or, in Utah, a "Denver omelet" or "Denver sandwich") (in print since 1925) ---Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, John F. Mariani [Lebhar-Friedman:New York] 1999 (p. 345) (Dictionary of American Regional English) Denver omelet n Also Denver. Cf western sandwich An omelet containing ham, onions, and freq green pepper; hence n Denver sandwich such an omelet served between sliced of bread. 1925 Lewis Arrowsmith 258 Upper MW, You might bring me a Denver sandwich from the Sunset Trail Lunch. 1932 (1946) Hibben Amer. Regional Cookery 193, Denver Sandwich...Fry..chopped ham with the onion...Add slightly beaten eggs, parsley;...Mix together and let brown lightly...Pile between slices of hot buttered toast. 1940 Brown Amer. Cooks 69, Denver Sandwich...This solid snack was born in covered wagon days, when eggs had to be hauled in over long, hot trails. They got so high in flavor that the kindest thing to do was smother them in onions...Early cowboys called the great-grandaddy of the Denver Sandwich "Ham Toast." 1967 DARE FW Addit. cnNY, A western omelet or sandwich (egg, ham, pepper, onion) is called a Denver sandwich or omelet in the west. 1985 DARE File Denver CO, Th chef at the Brown Palace Hotel..says that out here a "denver" is an omelet made with ham, green peppers and onions. A "western" is a sandwich; it has the same ingredients as the "Denver," but is prepared in such a way that it can be eaten between two pieces of toast...They don't seem to use the "Denver" term back east. 16 April 1884, Perry (Iowa) Pilot, pg. 3, col. 2: HAM AND EGGS ON TOAST.—Chop fine cold broiled or baked ham. Toast and butter slices of stale bread; crush the crust with a napkin to soften it. Spread with the ham and set in the oven for three or four minutes. Beat six eggs with a half cupful of milk, a little pepper and salt. Put this in a saucepan and stir over the fire until it begins to thicken. Take off, beat well for a moment, spread over the ham on toast; serve hot immediately. 7 April 1903, Semi Weekly Iowa State Reporter (Waterloo, Iowa), pg. 6, col. 1: In those days he would hop to a new book like a hungry hobo to a Denver sandwich, and, weather permitting, he would have put it away on a back shelf, or off to a neighbor's before the mass of the people knew it was out of the printshop. 15 February 1908, Newark (OH) Advocate, pg. 6, col. 2: The lunch consisted of Denver sandwiches, raisin and mince pie, pickles, cheese, cakes and coffee. 5 August 1908, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 3, col. 7: Western Sandwiches. Chop fine uncooked bacon, green peppers and onions; to twelve slices of bacon use two green peppers (seeds removed), six onions size of an egg; season with salt and a little pepper. Fry until bacon is done, then scramble in two eggs. Place between white or rye bread. This makes a delicious sandwich. 3 December 1909, Janesville (WI) Daily Gazette, pg. 2, col. 6 ad: Ham Sandwich. Fried Ham Sandwich. Ham and Egg Sandwich. Dried Beef Sandwich. Egg Sandwich. Egg Beef Sandwich. Hamburg Sandwich. Escanaba Sandwich. Manhattan Sandwich. Denver Sandwich. (Razook's Candy Palace—ed.) 12 September 1911, Syracuse (NY) Herald, pg. 5, col. 3: Western Sandwich. Blend 1 c. of chopped or finely minced ham with 1 well beaten egg, season with a very little grated onion; saute in hot dripping made from the fat of the ham; place between toasted bread that has been dipped in a little hot milk, then butter and set in a hot oven for a few minutes to dry out. Serve hot. The sauted ham may be placed between very thin slices of bread. 7 March 1912, Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, WI), pg. 8, col. 3 ad: 1 cup of coffee and one Denver sandwich ... 20c (South Side Restaurant and Lunch Room—ed.) 8 November 1912, Janesville (WI) Daily Gazette, pg. 6, col. 2 ad: Egg Sandwich...10c Hamburg Sandwich...10c Escanaba Sandwich...10c Manhattan Sandwich...10c Denver Sandwich...10c (Razook's Candy Palace—ed.) 3 October 1915, Duluth (MN) News Tribune, section 3, pg. 1: It has become a dispensary for "ham an," sinkers, and coffee and the festive Denver sandwiches. 24 March 1917, Wilkes-Barre (PA) Times Leader, pg. 14 ad: THE HAMPTON (...) Western Omelette...30c June 1918, Hotel Monthly, "Lunch-Room Cafeteria in I.C.R.R.'s New 63d St. Station" (Chicago, IL), menu, pg. 62, col. 2: Sandwiches...Denver 15c 8 April 1919, Syracuse (NY) Herald, pg. 10, col. 4: Western Sandwiches. To 3 T. of finely minced ham add 2 t. grated onion and 1 well beaten egg, blend well and saute in hot drippings on both sides or butter. Place between 1/3 inch slices of bread. Lettuce may be used. May 1919, Hotel Monthly, pg. 75, col. 2: Sandwiches...Hot...Denver...40c 9 June 1922, Davenport (Iowa) Democrat and Leader, pg. 20, col. 5: Q. What is a Manhattan sandwich? A. W. A. A New York chef says that a Manhattan sandwich has a filling of fried egg, minced ham and onion. 19 April 1924, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 5: DENVER SANDWICH It's a food as well as a palatable, wholesome candy. This delicious confection has become extremely popular...10c (WALGREEN CO. ad—ed.) 6 September 1924, Los Angeles (CA) Times, pg. 6: DENVER SANDWICH Make twelve slices of toast and butter. Beat six eggs until light and beat into them two cupfuls of finely chopped boiled ham, two finely chopped small onions, and three finely chopped dill pickles. Heat three tablespoonfuls of butter in a sautepan, turn in the mixture and stir and cook five minutes; spread over six slices of the buttered toast, cover with six slices of toast, place one sandwich on a lettuce-covered plate, garnish with sliced dill pickle and serve. Time magazine New Pictures Monday, Apr. 05, 1926 (...) Desert Gold. Zane Grey has contributed another hair-raiser, in which a sand storm is a vast feature. It deals with the dangers surrounding a girl who lived on the edge of a Western desert, and how a brave lieutenant of cavalry (Neil Hamilton) preserved her from them. Western pictures, like Western sandwiches,— are much the same everywhere and good if you like them. —A western sandwich is a ham and onion omelet with bread above and below. 26 June 1926, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 12: Denver sandwiches are appetizing and form a well-balanced meal if fruit is the dessert. For six persons use one pound of smoked ham, chopped, six onions and six eggs. Cook the onions and ham in a frying pan, add the eggs and stir until they are well scrambled. Put between rolls of slices of toast. 31 May 1929, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 10B, col. 3: A Denver sandwich is made by scrambling eggs with cold boiled ham and onions which have been chopped and browned in butter in a frying pan on top of the wire grill. This may be served over slices of buttered bread or toast, and is delicious with sliced tomatoes or a potato salad. Time magazine Western Sandwich Monday, Mar. 29, 1937 A LAMP ON THE PLAINS—Paul Morgan —Harper ($2.50). 24 January 1940, Wuakesha (WI) Freeman, pg. 3?, col. 3: "Western sandwich"—Denver sandwich. Time magazine The New Pictures Monday, Nov. 06, 1944 (...) Tall in the Saddle (RKO-Radio) is a western omelet made of the traditional ingredients and served up with a trifle more than the traditional style and fun. A hard young newcomer to town (John Wayne) renders a bruising account of himself in barroom, street and poker brawls, smokes out the skunk who killed his boss and, in the course of preventing a dove-soft eastern girl from being cheated of her inheritance, learns that he himself is the rightful heir to the K.C. Ranch. 14 July 1950, Amarillo (TX) Daily News, pg. 1, col. 1: IF YOU WILL bear with us a moment, we have a couple of footnotes to the Denver sandwich controversy. One tends to support the claim of M. D. Looney of Borger that he invented the Denver sandwich in 1907. Charlie Pryor of Amarillo backs Mr. Looney's thesis when he writes: "I was key clerk at $30 a month at the Brown Palace in Denver when Maude Adams was there. Sandwiches was all the food I could buy as the hotel did not furnish me with meals or room. The Manhattan (where Mr. Looney says he produced his first Denver sandwiches) was in the theatrical district and was famous for its KC steaks." On the other side, one R. A. Olatz of Portland, Me., called us by telephone. Said he was a tourist passing through. He can recall, he said, buying Denver sandwiches in Portland as long ago as 1898. Then, he said, they were made only with an egg and a slice of onion. 19 October 1952, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part VI, pg. 8: Western Omelet Add finely-diced onion, green pepper and ham to scrambled eggs and you have a Western omelet. Cook the onion and green pepper in a little butter or margarine first, if you like, until they are partly tender. 10 October 1954, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part V, pg. 15: Denver Sandwich Has Become Big Coast-to-Coast Favorite Sandwich tastes vary from place to place, and sometimes a regional favorite hits the spot nationally. So it is with the Denver or Western sandwich. The Denver sandwich composed of braised diced onion, green pepper, ham, seasoned and fried with an egg is perhaps listed on more restaurant menus than any other "name" sandwich. It may be served open faced, or closed, on toast or plain bread and its price ranged from low to medium, depending on the restaurant where it is ordered, the garnishment and the number of other foods included. At any price the Denver sandwich is good eating. The late Albert A. McVittie invented the Denver sandwich. Mr. McVittie was a native of Hamilton, Ont., was orphaned at an early age and grew up in Brooklyn. He followed a theatrical career for a short time, and finally in his theatrical wanderings, landed in Denver, in 1907, broke and hungry. He landed his first job in the Old Grand Central Restaurant near the Union Station. Travelers always in a hurry kept asking for some new kind of sandwich to tempt their appetites, and the Denver sandwich was Mr. McVitties inspired answer. It won its creator fame and fortune and a place for the city's name on menus across the nation. 23 March 1973, Hayward (CA) Daily Review, "Little Known Tasty Trivia," pg. 1H, col. 1: The famous Denver Sandwich was originated at the Taber Hotel in Denver. Seattle (WA) Post-Intelligencer DISHES COME WITH A LESSON IN HISTORY. (Life and Arts) From: Seattle Post-Intelligencer (Seattle, WA) Date: June 19, 2002 Byline: JOHN OWEN Columnist THE DENVER SANDWICH was invented by a buxom young beauty name Baby Doe in the kitchen of the Taber Hotel, which was owned by her husband, a Colorado silver mine millionaire. Hollandaise sauce was introduced by a French woman, Desiree Clary, who became queen of Sweden. Eggs Benedict was created in a Sicilian kitchen by the Franciscan saint of the same name. John L. Rafferty, captain of a fishing ketch, invented ketchup in 1802 to ward off scurvy in his crew. We have George Leonard Herter to thank for the above historical notes. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 17 22:12:42 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:12:42 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172008.l9HAlDwu021509@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Err... I don't get it. JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., opposed to nays (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. m a m On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 00:31:40 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:31:40 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710172115.l9HI27Wa004972@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ben, I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated as it includes phrases. See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml English Language Hits 1 Billion Words LONDON, Apr. 26, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (AP) A massive language research database responsible for bringing words such as "podcast" and "celebutante" to the pages of the Oxford dictionaries has officially hit a total of 1 billion words, researchers said Wednesday. Drawing on sources such as weblogs, chatrooms, newspapers, magazines and fiction, the Oxford English Corpus spots emerging trends in language usage to help guide lexicographers when composing the most recent editions of dictionaries. The press publishes the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the most comprehensive dictionary of the language, which in its most recent August 2005 edition added words such as "supersize," "wiki" and "retail politics" to its pages. Oxford University Press lexicographer Catherine Soanes said the database is not a collection of 1 billion different words, but of sentences and other examples of the usage and spelling. "The corpus is purely 21st century English," said Judy Pearsall, publishing manager of English dictionaries. "You're looking at current English and seeing what's happening right now. That's language at the cutting edge." As hybrid words such as "geek-chic," "inner-child" or "gabfest" increase in usage, Pearsall said part of the research project's goal is to identify words that have lasting power. "English gets really creative, really fun. What we're putting in dictionaries is words that will stick around," she said. Launched in January 2000, the Oxford English Corpus is part of the world's largest-funded language research project, costing $90,000-$107,000 per year. It has helped identify how the spellings of common phrases have changed, such as "fazed by" to "phased by" or "free rein" to "free reign." "Buck naked" increasingly has evolved to "butt naked." The corpus collects evidence from all the places where English is spoken, whether from North America, Britain, the Caribbean, Australia or India, to reflect the most current and common usage of the English language. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:03:11 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >> billion. > > I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus > (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview > that aired). More here: > > http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 18 01:19:24 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:19:24 -0400 Subject: antedating "duck tape" 1899 In-Reply-To: <20071015080544.q96hg97c0k48s88k@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: >OED has 1902 > >1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, >1899; pg. 3; >Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] > Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, > Corresponding >Secretary of the Era Club. >Category: News [col. F] >...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, >especially in white and dark blue. > >1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: >05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical >Newspapers] Adv. >Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of >silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. What is the sense of "duck tape" here? A type of tape? If so, what is the sense of "tape"? More-or-less "fabric strip"? I assume "duck" means the type of fabric? If "duck tape" here means "tape made of duck" how did it "take the lead" in "washable suits"? As ornamentation? Or was the whole suit made of duck tape? And if it's just "tape made of duck" does it merit an entry in the dictionary? If it does, I suppose "canvas tape", "linen tape", etc. get entries too? [I see from the same time period (e.g.) linen tape girdles.] Or does the special collocation "duck tape" (used later for a type of adhesive tape) drag in its ancestor? I can't find "duck tape" in my poor-man's OED at a glance. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - Release Date: 10/17/2007 7:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 01:39:03 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:39:03 -0400 Subject: Another Google Books screwup & Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke Message-ID: Google Books is bad. Here's another example. ... I was researching a "Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke" that's popular on the internet (see below). I looked for three search terms: "Texas," "lawyer," and "dare shoot." ... Four results came back, including one from "The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook" by Dorothy J. Kaplan. The book's cover plainly is for a different book entirely: "Bits of Silver: Vignettes of the Old West" edited by Don Ward. ... How could this happen? Google, I can confuse a Texas history book with a diabetic cookbook all by myself, thank you! ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook - Page 262 by Dorothy J. Kaplan - 1972 - 125 pages "That's how it went down in Texas," the southern cowhands said. ... but did not quite dare shoot a county judge at the bench before witnesses. ... ... ... ... Funny Bone July 15, 2006 mexican bandit and texas ranger Filed under: Lawyer A Mexican bandit made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande from time to time and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas ranger decided to track him down. After a lengthy search, he traced the bandit to his favorite cantina, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said, "You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll blow your brains out." But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish. Fortunately, a bilingual lawyer was in the saloon and translated the Ranger's message. The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree in back of the cantina. "What did he say?" asked the Ranger. The lawyer answered, "He said 'Get lost, you turkey. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 01:45:40 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:45:40 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? Message-ID: For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from the mistakes of the Google coalition. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik [bapopik at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Another Google Books screwup & Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke Google Books is bad. Here's another example. ... I was researching a "Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke" that's popular on the internet (see below). I looked for three search terms: "Texas," "lawyer," and "dare shoot." ... Four results came back, including one from "The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook" by Dorothy J. Kaplan. The book's cover plainly is for a different book entirely: "Bits of Silver: Vignettes of the Old West" edited by Don Ward. ... How could this happen? Google, I can confuse a Texas history book with a diabetic cookbook all by myself, thank you! ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook - Page 262 by Dorothy J. Kaplan - 1972 - 125 pages "That's how it went down in Texas," the southern cowhands said. ... but did not quite dare shoot a county judge at the bench before witnesses. ... ... ... ... Funny Bone July 15, 2006 mexican bandit and texas ranger Filed under: Lawyer A Mexican bandit made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande from time to time and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas ranger decided to track him down. After a lengthy search, he traced the bandit to his favorite cantina, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said, "You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll blow your brains out." But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish. Fortunately, a bilingual lawyer was in the saloon and translated the Ranger's message. The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree in back of the cantina. "What did he say?" asked the Ranger. The lawyer answered, "He said 'Get lost, you turkey. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Oct 18 02:06:59 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:06:59 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EE65@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2007, at 21:45, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of > Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of > great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British > Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working > with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of > digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from > the mistakes of the Google coalition. Is it the same as the Live.com book search? http://books.live.com Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 18 05:23:48 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710180031.l9HK1P8s021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > > > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> > >> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 > >> billion. > > > > I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus > > (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview > > that aired). More here: > > > > http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ > > I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on OUPblog: http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated > as it includes phrases. See > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml > > English Language Hits 1 Billion Words That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log even before I began my OUP affiliation: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Oct 18 10:19:41 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:19:41 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Finally, there's a review of the Cassidy book that takes the proper critical look at the book: "There are brief glimmers of light, especially in the essays regarding the development of the words 'dude' and 'jazz', but these are lost among the wreckage. For someone who criticizes Anglo-English dictionaries so stridently, Cassidy seems to fall into a similar trap. Convinced of his thesis and eager to disseminate his ideas, he fails to vet and solidify these connections enough so the reader can feel certain about them. Words are too powerful to be anything less than certain." Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 12:27:06 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:27:06 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172212.l9HLV6Bq021509@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My post should have read: > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > m a m > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 18 12:38:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:38:20 -0400 Subject: "yeah" Message-ID: It's clear to me that "nay" comes from the contraction of "no way." --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay (,Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Thu Oct 18 13:01:52 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:52 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710180401.l9HM5ke1004974@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped and designed for visual pleasure in driving. ---Amy West >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >From: Tom Zurinskas >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > >It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >don't park on it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 18 13:41:21 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:41:21 -0500 Subject: Cassidy Message-ID: My thanks to Grant and the other ads-l members who have commented on Cassidy's writings. Btw, Cassidy also fails on "dude" and "jazz." I've already commented on "jazz" in an earlier ads-l message, and later I'll comment on "dude." Also, btw, although I'm ready to look for any insight at all in Cassidy's book (and rejoice if I find it), my overall evaluation of the book is that it's a scholarly disgrace. In haste, Gerald Cohen P.S. The etymology of "dude" was clarified by Barry Popik. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Grant Barrett Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 5:19 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Cassidy Finally, there's a review of the Cassidy book that takes the proper critical look at the book: "There are brief glimmers of light, especially in the essays regarding the development of the words 'dude' and 'jazz', but these are lost among the wreckage. For someone who criticizes Anglo-English dictionaries so stridently, Cassidy seems to fall into a similar trap. Convinced of his thesis and eager to disseminate his ideas, he fails to vet and solidify these connections enough so the reader can feel certain about them. Words are too powerful to be anything less than certain." Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 14:36:40 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:36:40 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? In-Reply-To: <12C7A960-9E22-44D4-A753-5511A1A6746F@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Yes, the Live.com book search is the Beta site for this project. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Grant Barrett [gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? On Oct 17, 2007, at 21:45, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of > Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of > great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British > Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working > with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of > digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from > the mistakes of the Google coalition. Is it the same as the Live.com book search? http://books.live.com Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 18 15:09:12 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:09:12 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710181227.l9IAkMLV000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, Wilson. It was Mark's note that "yea" / je / is used in the U.S. Congress that I didn't get. Maybe it's worth restating that one OE syn. of "yes" was / jE /. This has survived as / je / in parliamentary language and archaic biblical language. One would expect that modern {yeah}, {yeh}, and {yea} (all pronounced much as in OE and in use throughout the anglophone world) is likewise a direct survival of the same OE word. OED, however, does not show any modern exx. (other than the formal/frozen kind) until 1905. (_Yeah_: 1905 U.S.; _yeh_: 1920: U.K.). So what's the history of colloquial "yeah"? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My post should have read: > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > m a m > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 18 15:16:17 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:16:17 -0400 Subject: antedating duck tape 1899 Message-ID: There are several types of fabric tapes used in tailoring & dressmaking, for trimming, reinforcing and binding. Some of these are cut from broadcloth and have their edges folded under, and some are woven as tape, that is, selvedged so that they can't unravel. The "duck tape" of these entries is probably of the latter type. I think the adoption of "duck tape" as the name of the later adhesive-type of tape is a misnomer for "duct tape," a kind of water-based adhesive tape used to seal the joints in furnace ducts, which, in turn became the prototype of the contact- adhesive tape we all use to hold stuff together today. We discussed "duct-" and "duck-" tape here several years ago. AM Original Message: ----------------- From: Douglas G. Wilson douglas at NB.NET Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:19:24 -0400 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating "duck tape" 1899 >OED has 1902 > >1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, >1899; pg. 3; >Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] > Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, > Corresponding >Secretary of the Era Club. >Category: News [col. F] >...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, >especially in white and dark blue. > >1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: >05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical >Newspapers] Adv. >Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of >silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. What is the sense of "duck tape" here? A type of tape? If so, what is the sense of "tape"? More-or-less "fabric strip"? I assume "duck" means the type of fabric? If "duck tape" here means "tape made of duck" how did it "take the lead" in "washable suits"? As ornamentation? Or was the whole suit made of duck tape? And if it's just "tape made of duck" does it merit an entry in the dictionary? If it does, I suppose "canvas tape", "linen tape", etc. get entries too? [I see from the same time period (e.g.) linen tape girdles.] Or does the special collocation "duck tape" (used later for a type of adhesive tape) drag in its ancestor? I can't find "duck tape" in my poor-man's OED at a glance. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - Release Date: 10/17/2007 7:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 18:01:59 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:01:59 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: Anyone remember this? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ ... Entry from October 18, 2007 "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy fried okra instead. Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks up. Food Tale: Okra Okra (Abelmoschus esculentus) Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a coffee substitute. Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: (...) Old Homer Ogletree's so high On okra he keeps lots laid by. He keeps it in a safe he locks up, He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. (Which goes to show it's no misnomer When people call him Okra Homer. Okra! Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook Stewed Okra and Tomatoes Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed—that is, cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be at its best. (...) People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse to defend okra. It's delicious—so much so that I enjoy that slimey texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. Google Books 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so much okra I slid out of bed. 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic Monthly. "I don't even like the stuff—okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly is a dilly." I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up… (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra Homer.)" 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from slipping out." Google Groups: soc.motss Newsgroups: soc.motss From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How appetizing! Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove From: "Nancy" Date: 1998/10/03 Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to keep us from sliding out." Johnny Caker's Journal 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. (...) At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is slimey! 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) October 03, 2006 It's better if you fry it Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do you really like boiled okra? Ugh. (...) Comments you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a kid my socks would not stay up." Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM Food Network Forums Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just breading with a little seedy slime in it! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 18 18:39:27 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:39:27 -0700 Subject: "in power" Message-ID: Here's another example of the use of this phrase to mean "in office [because democratically elected]": 2007 _Fox News Live_ (FNC TV) (Oct. 18): [The Sarkozies] are the first French Presidential couple to split while they were in power. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 23:36:26 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:36:26 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710181802.l9IFrnFJ005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased to be unique in the eater's experience. I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. Who knows? -Wilson On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone remember this? > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > ... > Entry from October 18, 2007 > "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" > Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > fried okra instead. > > Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > up. > > > Food Tale: Okra > Okra > (Abelmoschus esculentus) > Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > > It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > > It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > coffee substitute. > > Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > > Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > (...) > Old Homer Ogletree's so high > On okra he keeps lots laid by. > He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > When people call him Okra Homer. > Okra! > > Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed—that is, > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > at its best. > (...) > People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > to defend okra. It's delicious—so much so that I enjoy that slimey > texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > Google Books > 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > much okra I slid out of bed. > > 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > > 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > > 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > out of bed." > > 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > > 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > Monthly. > > "I don't even like the stuff—okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > is a dilly." > > I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up… > (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > Homer.)" > > 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > slipping out." > > Google Groups: soc.motss > Newsgroups: soc.motss > From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > > "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > appetizing! > > Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > From: "Nancy" > Date: 1998/10/03 > Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > > BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > > 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > keep us from sliding out." > > Johnny Caker's Journal > 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > (...) > At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > slimey! > > 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > > Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > October 03, 2006 > It's better if you fry it > Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > > I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > (...) > Comments > you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > kid my socks would not stay up." > Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > > Food Network Forums > Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > > I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > breading with a little seedy slime in it! > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 23:44:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:44:35 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710181509.l9IAkMl7000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, yeah. I get it, now. Yea, Jon! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry, Wilson. It was Mark's note that "yea" / je / is used in the U.S. Congress that I didn't get. > > Maybe it's worth restating that one OE syn. of "yes" was / jE /. This has survived as / je / in parliamentary language and archaic biblical language. One would expect that modern {yeah}, {yeh}, and {yea} (all pronounced much as in OE and in use throughout the anglophone world) is likewise a direct survival of the same OE word. OED, however, does not show any modern exx. (other than the formal/frozen kind) until 1905. (_Yeah_: 1905 U.S.; _yeh_: 1920: U.K.). > > So what's the history of colloquial "yeah"? > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My post should have read: > > > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > -Wilson > > > On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Err... > > > > I don't get it. > > > > JL > > > > Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > > > m a m > > > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 23:47:18 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:47:18 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710181636u4331eb3at9929db3130b074ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >Who knows? > >-Wilson Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into a dry okratini every night...) LH > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Barry Popik >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Anyone remember this? >> ... >> ... >> ... >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> ... >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> fried okra instead. >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> up. >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> Okra >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> coffee substitute. >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> (...) >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > Okra! >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> at its best. >> (...) >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> Google Books >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> out of bed." >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> Monthly. >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> is a dilly." >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> Homer.)" >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> slipping out." >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> appetizing! >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> From: "Nancy" >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> (...) >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> slimey! >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> October 03, 2006 >> It's better if you fry it >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> (...) >> Comments >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> Food Network Forums >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Oct 19 01:10:37 2007 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:10:37 -0300 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IMwdU1000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:47 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >Who knows? > >-Wilson Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into a dry okratini every night...) LH > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: ----- >> >> Anyone remember this? >> ... >> ... >> ... >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_ out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> ... >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> fried okra instead. >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> up. >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> Okra >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> coffee substitute. >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> (...) >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > Okra! >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> at its best. >> (...) >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> Google Books >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> out of bed." >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> Monthly. >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> is a dilly." >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> Homer.)" >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> slipping out." >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> appetizing! >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> From: "Nancy" >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> (...) >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> slimey! >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> October 03, 2006 >> It's better if you fry it >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> (...) >> Comments >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> Food Network Forums >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 00:24:49 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710190010.l9J0AdVL028086@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >DAD OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. LH > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Laurence Horn >Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:47 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >>appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >>nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >>native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >>eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >>to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >>I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >>grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >>snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >>have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >>Who knows? >> >>-Wilson > >Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. >Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >(Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >a dry okratini every night...) > >LH > >> >>On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >----- >>> >>> Anyone remember this? >>> ... >>> ... >>> ... >>> >>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_ >out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >>> ... >>> Entry from October 18, 2007 >>> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks >up!" >>> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >>> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >>> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >>> fried okra instead. >>> >>> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >>> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >>> up. >>> >>> >>> Food Tale: Okra >>> Okra >>> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >>> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >>> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >>> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >>> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >>> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >>> >>> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >>> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >>> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >>> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >>> >>> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >>> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >>> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >>> coffee substitute. >>> >>> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >>> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >>> >>> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> (...) >>> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >>> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >>> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >>> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >>> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> > Okra! >>> >>> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >>> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >>> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >>> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >>> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >>> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >>> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >>> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >>> at its best. >>> (...) >>> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >>> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >>> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >>> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >>> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >>> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >>> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >>> >>> Google Books >>> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >>> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >>> much okra I slid out of bed. >>> >>> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >>> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >>> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >>> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >>> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >>> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >>> >>> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >>> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >>> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >>> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >>> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >>> >>> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >>> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >>> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >>> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >>> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >>> out of bed." >>> >>> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >>> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >>> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >>> >>> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >>> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >>> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >>> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >>> Monthly. >>> >>> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >>> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >>> is a dilly." >>> >>> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >>> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >>> >>> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >>> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >>> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >>> Homer.)" >>> >>> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >>> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >>> slipping out." >>> >>> Google Groups: soc.motss >>> Newsgroups: soc.motss >>> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >>> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >>> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >>> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >>> >>> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >>> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >>> appetizing! > >> >>> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >>> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >>> From: "Nancy" >>> Date: 1998/10/03 >>> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> >>> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >>> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >>> >>> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >>> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >>> keep us from sliding out." >>> >>> Johnny Caker's Journal >>> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >>> (...) >>> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >>> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >>> slimey! >>> >>> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >>> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >>> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >>> >>> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >>> October 03, 2006 >>> It's better if you fry it >>> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >>> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >>> >>> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >>> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >>> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >>> (...) >>> Comments >>> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >>> kid my socks would not stay up." >>> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >>> >>> Food Network Forums >>> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >>> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >>> >>> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >>> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >>> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >>> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >>-- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 19 00:31:17 2007 From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET (David Donnell) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:31:17 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710181302.l9IAkMP7000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park in a driveway." Interesting observation/background, in any case. DD >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Amy West >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >and designed for visual pleasure in driving. > >---Amy West > >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>From: Tom Zurinskas >>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >> >>It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>don't park on it. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 19 00:34:01 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:34:01 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Country comedian Jerry Clower also had a routine about two dogs eating "slick, slimy boiled okra." It went down so fast that they both thought the other one got it all and they commenced to fighting. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 01:06:47 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:06:47 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IMwdU1000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >> I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> Who knows? The trick is to add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar while stewing or sautéing. It makes short work of the slime. A story I heard as a kid was that okra seeds were brought to America by captive slaves, smuggled across the ocean on the slave ships in their hair. A bit of googling suggests I wasn't the only one to hear this story. It would be interesting to know where that story got started. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 01:25:26 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:25:26 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190031.l9IMKc4A005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Dave and Amy, Right, there are a bunch of those "old saws." I had a list at one time. I had never thought of "parkway" as being named to represent a park we drive through, but that works for me, even though they may not look like parks now. Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park. So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake. Otherwise I prefer "tidal wave" as in m-w.com. Main Entry: tidal wave Function: noun Date: 1851 1: something overwhelming especially in quantity or volume 2 a: an unusually high sea wave that is triggered especially by an earthquake b: an unusual rise of water alongshore due to strong winds Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:31:17 -0400 > From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Donnell > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: > > "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park > in a driveway." > > Interesting observation/background, in any case. > > DD > >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Amy West >>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >>sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >>in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >>and designed for visual pleasure in driving. >> >>---Amy West >> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>>From: Tom Zurinskas >>>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>> >>>It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>>Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>>names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>>don't park on it. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Oct 19 01:28:32 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:28:32 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Yeah Message-ID: As Jon has noted, dictionaries consider "yeah" a 20th-century word (Merriam-Webster gives a date of 1902), though it seems likely to be much older. I suspect that the key is to look for spellings other than "yeah." Even with just that spelling, though, colloquial "yeah" can be antedated. Most strikingly, it appears passim in the modern sense in Edwin Lassetter Bynner, Zachary Phips (1892) (Google Books full text). The first use is on page 9: "Yeah, I was." The speakers who say "yeah" tend to be schoolboys and sailors from the Boston area, though that may not be true of every use. It may or may not be significant that the book is a historical novel. Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll see 't stret to leeward." Of perhaps greater significance is this passage from an essay by Richard Jefferies (1848 - 1887), "Field Words and Ways," published posthumously in Richard Jefferies, Field and Hedgerow (1889) (Google Books full text), but probably reprinted from some earlier magazine publication. The essay discusses the language of English farmers and laborers; unfortunately, it is mostly unclear what part of England is intended, though it seems likely that Jefferies drew from his experiences living in Wiltshire or perhaps Surrey: <> John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 19 01:41:36 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "dude" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As promised earlier today, here's information about "dude." Credit for locating the key articles that help clarify its etymology go to Barry Popik and Sam Clements. 1) Barry first spotted a May 1881 article in _Clothier and Furnisher_, vol. 13, no. 10, pp. 27-28 (reprinted in my _Comments on Etymology_ April 1997, pp. 2-3 and then Oct. 1998, pp. 1-2). The 1881 article is titled "Definition Of The Word Dude" and says in part: "...It is not exactly slang, but has not rooted itself in the language and has not, therefore, a precise and accepted meaning. The word pronounced in two syllables as if spelled 'doody' has been in occasional use in some New England towns for more than a score of years. It was probably born as a diminutive of dandy, and applied to the feeble personators of the real fop. ..." >From this 1881 passage just above, it looks like "Yankee Doodle Dandy" produced a blend of "dood(le)" and "dandy" in some New England towns prior to 1883, with shortening to "dude" (one syllable) by 1883. 1883 is when "dude" burst on the American scene. 2) A second very important discovery was made by Sam Clements (1/15/2004 ads-l message), who had spotted a relevant 1879 article: 5 April 1879, _Burlington (IA) Weekly Hawkeye_ 6/4 (Reprinted from the _Boston Herald_); title: "Concord Reminiscences About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson": "Julian Hawthorne [Nathaniel's son] came home from Italy when a very small boy. He wore long curls, and the Concord boys plagued him in the usual tough way of boys. They called him "Sissy" and "Yankee Doodle," and finally they ridiculed the poor lad till he petitioned for a barber to cut off his locks." This 1879 quote clarifies that "Yankee Doodle" could specifically be used to ridicule a dandy (outside the song). So "Dood" of "Yankee Doodle (Dandy)" is almost certainly the source of 19th century "dude," either directly or via shortening of the "doody" mentioned in the 1881 _Clothier and Furnisher_ article. Note: When "dude" burst on the American scene in 1883, its meaning was different from that of modern times. The earlier meaning "an effete, young brainless youth imitating in speech and dress what he considered to be representative of high British fashion (particularly Oscar Wilde)." The cartoonists and other humorists had a field day with this character. As soon as time permits, I would like to compile all the "dude" material from the Comments on Etymology treatments into a unified presentation, with due credit of course. Meanwhile, anyone interested in looking at the available material may start with my item "_Dude_" from _Yankee Doodle_-- Confirming Evidence From an 1879 Newspaper Article," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 33, no. 7, April 2004, pp. 2-3. The article's selected bibliography permits a researcher to work backwards for the earlier Comments on Etymology treatments. In the meantime, thanks and congratulations to Barry and Sam for their work on this subject. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 01:56:33 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:56:33 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710180533.l9I2HKkC021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what does "word" mean? Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>> >>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>> billion. >>> >>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>> that aired). More here: >>> >>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >> >> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. > > If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of > specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on > OUPblog: > > http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > >> Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >> as it includes phrases. See >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >> >> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words > > That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log > even before I began my OUP affiliation: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Oct 19 02:00:26 2007 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:00:26 -0500 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: He was referring to the size of the corpus: "Because the corpus is a collection of texts, there are not two billion different words: the humble word 'the', the commonest in the written language, accounts for almost 100 million of all the words in the corpus!" http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/?view=uk -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 8:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what does "word" mean? Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>> >>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>> billion. >>> >>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>> that aired). More here: >>> >>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >> >> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. > > If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of > specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on > OUPblog: > > http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > >> Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >> as it includes phrases. See >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >> >> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words > > That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log > even before I began my OUP affiliation: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 02:15:54 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190125.l9IL86Yh005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like circular troll country once again. BB Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park. > > So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:30:15 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:30:15 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172212.l9HK1Ppe021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, I should have made it explicit. I was trying to contribute to the discussion of "nay", more than of "yea": Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., ***opposed to nays*** (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:36:43 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:36:43 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Yeah In-Reply-To: <200710190128.l9IL86Z5005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Lorboard" ("larboard") I understand here, as a synonym for "port" 'left'. But "to leeward"? That means 'downwind'. I wonder if Bynner knew that, or just thought it was another one of those peculiar nautical synonyms for "left" and "right". m a m On 10/18/07, Baker, John wrote: > > > Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in > dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full > text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an > inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go > off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll > see 't stret to leeward." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 02:42:41 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:42:41 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <2B9C268F14E3E647845C2AA0195E2C96026A26F2@UM-XMAIL03.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: At 9:00 PM -0500 10/18/07, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >He was referring to the size of the corpus: > >"Because the corpus is a collection of texts, >there are not two billion different words: the >humble word 'the', the commonest in the written >language, accounts for almost 100 million of all >the words in the corpus!" >http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/?view=uk Maybe we need to introduce a unit on the type/token distinction. LH >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas >Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 8:56 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > >So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion >words? And what does "word" mean? >Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a >page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 >billion. > >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus >"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 >> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> >>>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>>> >>>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in >>>>>English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>>> billion. >>>> >>>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>>> that aired). More here: >>>> >>>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >>> >>> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. >> >> If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of >> specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on >> OUPblog: >> >> http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ >> >>> Regarding the number of words, I found this >>>below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >>> as it includes phrases. See >>> >>> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >>> >>> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words >> >> That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log >> even before I began my OUP affiliation: >> >> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >_________________________________________________________________ >Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at >the Messenger Café. Stop by today. >http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 19 02:44:59 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:44:59 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what >does "word" mean? >Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would >take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Let's try that again! A billion (US) is a thousand million (1,000,000,000). At 100 headwords per page, a billion headwords would require 10,000,000 (ten million) pages. Obviously an unwieldy dictionary. A _million_ headwords at 100 per page will require 10,000 pages: a book the size of the OED, roughly, I guess. Not infeasible at all. It is reasonable to say that there are about a million English words/lexemes, as an order-of-magnitude estimate. Of course it depends on criteria for inclusion, distinctness, etc., etc. Crystal ("Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language") gives a million (1,000,000) as a conservative estimate, gives 500,000 as the approximate number of headwords in a large dictionary (OED, 1992), gives 2,000,000 as a reasonable possibility. There is no possibility of a billion distinct lexical items, IMHO ... as I think Ben Zimmer pointed out. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:48:33 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:48:33 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IJ8llV000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and > >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from > >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a > >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to > >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased > >to be unique in the eater's experience. > > > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the > >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig > >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may > >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. > >Who knows? > > > >-Wilson > > Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and > I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, > since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. > Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took > getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. > (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure > I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be > a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into > a dry okratini every night...) > > LH > > > > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the > >>mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Barry Popik > >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Anyone remember this? > >> ... > >> ... > >> ... > >> > >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > >> ... > >> Entry from October 18, 2007 > >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" > >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > >> fried okra instead. > >> > >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > >> up. > >> > >> > >> Food Tale: Okra > >> Okra > >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) > >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > >> > >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > >> > >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > >> coffee substitute. > >> > >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > >> > >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> (...) > >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high > >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. > >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > > Okra! > >> > >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > >> at its best. > >> (...) > >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey > >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > >> > >> Google Books > >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > >> much okra I slid out of bed. > >> > >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > >> > >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > >> > >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > >> out of bed." > >> > >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > >> > >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > >> Monthly. > >> > >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > >> is a dilly." > >> > >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > >> > >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up > >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > >> Homer.)" > >> > >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > >> slipping out." > >> > >> Google Groups: soc.motss > >> Newsgroups: soc.motss > >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > >> > >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > >> appetizing! > >> > >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > >> From: "Nancy" > >> Date: 1998/10/03 > >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> > >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > >> > >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > >> keep us from sliding out." > >> > >> Johnny Caker's Journal > >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > >> (...) > >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > >> slimey! > >> > >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > >> > >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > >> October 03, 2006 > >> It's better if you fry it > >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > >> > >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > >> (...) > >> Comments > >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > >> kid my socks would not stay up." > >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > >> > >> Food Network Forums > >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > >> > >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 03:06:06 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190215.l9IJ8lwN000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Something like that. Scot PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like circular troll country once again. BB> > Tom Zurinskas wrote:> > Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park.> >> > So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake.> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last.  Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 03:08:52 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:08:52 -0500 Subject: Recent Nature articles Message-ID: I heard on NPR last week that a recent issue of Nature had three(?) articles on language; one was on irregular verbs. I would like access to them, but my school access has run out (if that would have helped) and I don't want get a subscription for a few articles. Does anyone have copies of these articles or know a good way to get a look at them? Thanx for any help offered. Scot _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 03:11:03 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:11:03 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190031.l9IMKc4A005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's a tendency to remove such words from the language. AFAIK, nobody uses the word "parkway" for any sort of a road unless the road is named XX Parkway, and even then, they probably say "drive down the Parkway" not "drive down the parkway". BB David Donnell wrote: > I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: > > "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park > in a driveway." > > Interesting observation/background, in any case. > > DD > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Amy West >> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >> sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >> in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >> and designed for visual pleasure in driving. >> >> ---Amy West >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>> From: Tom Zurinskas >>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>> >>> It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>> Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>> names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>> don't park on it. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 03:12:50 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710181948m547424a8sebbea551b19b025a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! > >-Wilson The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> > >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >Who knows? >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> a dry okratini every night...) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> ... >> >> ... >> >> ... >> >> >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> ... >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >>socks up!" >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> Okra >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> (...) >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> >> at its best. >> >> (...) >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> (...) >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> (...) >> >> Comments >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Oct 19 03:17:47 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:17:47 -0500 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: I can't resist quoting a friend, "There's only one thing I eat that's hairy on the outside and slimy on the inside, and it isn't okra." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased to be unique in the eater's experience. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 19 03:18:53 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:18:53 -0400 Subject: Gism (1901): a second thought In-Reply-To: <20070919014506.OWHY4108.mta13.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: >---------- > >E. D. Gillespie, _A Book of Remembrances_ (Lippincott, Philadelphia, >1901): p. 33: > ><story to my grandmother she instantly wrote these verses: / ... / >"Now, mother, when we wish to soar / And cut a dash at 'Bellespore,' >/ You will repeat some vulgarism, / What we call nectar you call gism.">> > >---------- > >This verse, ostensibly quoted from E. D. Gillespie's mother, would >have been written around 1800, I think. The context: a bookish girl >had claimed that her sister had gone out to read poetry ("Night >Thoughts"), but their unpretentious mother had spoiled the illusion >by saying that the girl had gone out to get "a mess of poke". > >I don't know what "Bellespore" means ("Belle Espoir"?). > >What does "gism" mean here? What pronunciation is expressed by "gism" here? Is this isolated ca.-1800 word /gIzm/ or /dZIzm/? If it's /dZIzm/ (like "jism") it's surely reasonable to _try_ to relate it to the "jism" later used for "spirit"/"vigor" or so and for "semen". But what if it's /gIzm/? Then one might attempt an association with dialectal "gizzen"/"gizzern"/"gizzem"/etc. = "gizzard"/"throat", right? SND shows "gizzern" with variants. DARE shows "gizzle" = "goozle" = "goozlem" = "guzzle" = "throat". Also "goozlum" = "viscous food such as a sauce, gravy, or pudding ...". IF there was a word (ca. 1800) pronounced /gIzm/ meaning "gravy" or so, it would explain the "gism" in the above quotation. But how (if at all) would one relate it to the later "gism"/"jism"? Is a /g/ > /dZ/ mutation explainable/believable? Also note "gizzard" (in HDAS, etc.) with sense similar to "jism"/"jasm". Any thoughts? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 19 05:11:37 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:11:37 -0400 Subject: "shoestring" (attr) ="spending little; cheap; petty" 1759 antedates 1890- Message-ID: She assumes the Authority of the Step mother.--She wears more Airs of Reserve, and Distance, and Superiority than your Father.ⅆShe is not the most discreet Woman, She told the Behavior of the people, at the Tavern they were at in the Country about the Tea, before all the Monatiquot officers, shoe string fellows that never use Tea and would use it as [awkwardly?] as the Landlady did. That was quite imprudent [and] impopular. It was designed to divert and please, but it had a contrary Effect. It made them all jealous and suspicious that they were remarked and laughed at as much to the next Company. p. 114 1759 summer antedates OED3 sense 4.b "spending little; cheap; petty" 1890- Diary and Autobiography of John Adams Ed. L. H. Butterfield 1961 The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 19 11:35:19 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:35:19 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, > Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > > http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > > Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, > and me, along with unnamed others. > > > --Ben Zimmer Thanks. And she mentions George A. Thompson Jr. and his 1912 jazz find. Earlier in the article, she wrote of "a dedicated cadre of DIY word-researchers who don't want to wait for the OED's revision process to get around to updating the words they're interested in." Now I know that not all proposed antedatings are interesting--or even all reliable--and that OED has a plan to review all articles, and can't do everything instantly. But a Boston Globe reader who goes to the usually-quite-excellent but occasionally quite-mistaken OED might fairly wonder why that 1912 quotation does not appear, and, also, that a 1909 quotation (properly?) disputed by--the late--David Shulman (1912-2004) does appear. Jazz is probably an often-consulted word. (Perhaps the online hits are recorded). Isn't that worth an out-of-sequence (and easy) correction (as e.g., Dave Wilton suggested some time ago)? Or removing the Hoosier 1926 citation that was proven to be misdated, yet again, in the Indiana Magazine of History? Or in boondoggle--another oft-consulted word, I'd guess--mentioning the August 14, 1929 Punch article, cited, e.g., by Jon Lighter in Atlantic back in March of 1995? Or simply removing the contradiction in the Poontang entry? Or at Copacetic, noting that the 1919 author having made it up (spelled copasetic) for the unique use of Mrs. Lukins is more plausible than those guesses currently listed? Or re-addressing scholarship for the outdated Element and Nazarene entries? (E.g., might OED readers prefer to know about the cuneiform tablet find at Hazor probably mentioning Nazareth?) Or in the Essene entry, instead of citing a book that was fairly good, that is, for 1864, that listed 19 etymology proposals--actually, there have been more than 60 different proposals published--mentioning that only one of these proposals, made first, as far as I know, by Philip Melanchthon in 1532, has evidently been confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Or, at least, that an increasing list of scholars recognize this? There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 19 12:03:56 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:03:56 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful (or at least more colorful). --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" > >The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 13:38:03 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190306.l9IJ8l0l000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com Main Entry: tsu·na·mi Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mē\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave Date: 1897 : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Something like that. > =20 > Scot > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec= > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS= > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea= > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: = > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------= > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks = > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point= > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo= > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak= > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though= > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving= > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped = > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac= > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------= > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/= > /www.americandialect.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= > Get it now. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= > 6971033= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Fri Oct 19 13:57:29 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:57:29 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710191203.l9JAlVGZ032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A more yuppified version might have been called, albeit erroneously, yam frits. ;) (the other) doug It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful (or at least more colorful). --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 14:18:48 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:18:48 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <20071019080356.IEX00316@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and >that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. > >One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten >Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never >encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, >yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some >comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) >idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful >(or at least more colorful). > >--Charlie I assume the same. They're now a frequent addition in college dining halls too. (Sweet potato chips are also thriving.) LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- > >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 >>From: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" >> >>The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >>(http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >>chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >>although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >>that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >>okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 19 14:21:54 2007 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:21:54 -0700 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Going beyond simply correcting known errors faster, a neat feature would be inclusion of "unedited" citations in the online edition. A button, similar to the one that displays the 2nd Edition entry, could display unedited/unverified citations when the reader requests. You could even have a comment feature where readers could send in or comment on citations by clicking through. (Probably not public comments, given the nature of the OED, but ones that go directly to a database for consideration by the editors when they get to that word in the revision cycle. Make submitting citations and corrections easier.) This would be a fair amount of work to implement and maintain (and I imagine that it's probably not practical to put every citation in the Oxford database online--some I understand are still on paper slips), but it could end up generating more material and saving effort in the long run by engaging a wider group in helping with the editing. And you'd still maintain quality control by having the "official" edited entry. And it would make the dictionary more valuable by pointing researchers to citations that they otherwise might miss--they'd have to verify them themselves, of course. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:35 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, > Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > > http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > > Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, > and me, along with unnamed others. > > > --Ben Zimmer Thanks. And she mentions George A. Thompson Jr. and his 1912 jazz find. Earlier in the article, she wrote of "a dedicated cadre of DIY word-researchers who don't want to wait for the OED's revision process to get around to updating the words they're interested in." Now I know that not all proposed antedatings are interesting--or even all reliable--and that OED has a plan to review all articles, and can't do everything instantly. But a Boston Globe reader who goes to the usually-quite-excellent but occasionally quite-mistaken OED might fairly wonder why that 1912 quotation does not appear, and, also, that a 1909 quotation (properly?) disputed by--the late--David Shulman (1912-2004) does appear. Jazz is probably an often-consulted word. (Perhaps the online hits are recorded). Isn't that worth an out-of-sequence (and easy) correction (as e.g., Dave Wilton suggested some time ago)? Or removing the Hoosier 1926 citation that was proven to be misdated, yet again, in the Indiana Magazine of History? Or in boondoggle--another oft-consulted word, I'd guess--mentioning the August 14, 1929 Punch article, cited, e.g., by Jon Lighter in Atlantic back in March of 1995? Or simply removing the contradiction in the Poontang entry? Or at Copacetic, noting that the 1919 author having made it up (spelled copasetic) for the unique use of Mrs. Lukins is more plausible than those guesses currently listed? Or re-addressing scholarship for the outdated Element and Nazarene entries? (E.g., might OED readers prefer to know about the cuneiform tablet find at Hazor probably mentioning Nazareth?) Or in the Essene entry, instead of citing a book that was fairly good, that is, for 1864, that listed 19 etymology proposals--actually, there have been more than 60 different proposals published--mentioning that only one of these proposals, made first, as far as I know, by Philip Melanchthon in 1532, has evidently been confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Or, at least, that an increasing list of scholars recognize this? There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 19 14:26:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:26:18 -0700 Subject: Antedating of Yeah In-Reply-To: <200710190236.l9IL86hT005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe there was a big wind blowin' just then. JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: Antedating of Yeah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Lorboard" ("larboard") I understand here, as a synonym for "port" 'left'. But "to leeward"? That means 'downwind'. I wonder if Bynner knew that, or just thought it was another one of those peculiar nautical synonyms for "left" and "right". m a m On 10/18/07, Baker, John wrote: > > > Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in > dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full > text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an > inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go > off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll > see 't stret to leeward." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 14:38:11 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:38:11 -0500 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710191357.l9JAlVdt027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I got an email from the folks who produced "Balderdash & Piffle" for the BBC (the show which looks for antedatings for words -- mostly British slang). Among other things, it pointed to a "Hall of Fame" page on the OED's website for people who helped research terms from the second season of the show. A few of the names will be recognized from the ADS-L. http://www.oed.com/bbcwordhunt/acknowledge.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 14:40:11 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:40:11 -0500 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710190315.l9IJ8l1N000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > I can't resist quoting a friend, "There's only one thing I > eat that's hairy on the outside and slimy on the inside, and > it isn't okra." > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Uh, kiwi fruit? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 19 15:13:33 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:13:33 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But getting back to basics, before 'tsunami' became popular, the correct name was 'seismic sea wave', not 'tidal wave'. But the phrase 'tidal wave ' is stuck in popular imagery, and in ways that have nothing to do with earthquakes, waves, or tides. --- Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with > those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain > it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic > principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor > wave", which to me does not have the impact of a > "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date > associated - 1851, see m-w.com > > Main Entry: tsu·na·mi > Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mē\ > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami > Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave > Date: 1897 > : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine > earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave > > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the > phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has > that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that > the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation. > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus > "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 > > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" > files for Social Security) > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Scot LaFaive > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" > files for Social Security) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Something like that. > > =20 > > Scot > > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. > >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: > gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec= > > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for > Social Security)> To: ADS= > > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- > Information from the mail hea= > > der -----------------------> Sender: American > Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin > Barrett > Subject: Re: = > > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > Security)> --------------= > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> > Looks = > > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom > Zurinskas wrote:>> Point= > > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be > dropped for "tsunami". Someo= > > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the > cause, which is an earthquak= > > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, > like parkway, even though= > > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" > doesn't resemble driving= > > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why > "tidal wave" is dropped = > > and who is responsible for dropping it goes > unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac= > > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> > ------------------------= > > ------------------------------------> The American > Dialect Society - http:/= > > /www.americandialect.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook > =96 together at last. =A0= > > Get it now. > > > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= > > 6971033= > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the > Messenger Café. Stop by today. > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 19 15:48:10 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:48:10 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:35:19AM -0400, Stephen Goranson wrote: [...] > There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that > annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but > perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which > OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be > construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than > strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative > research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively > simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed > contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. I can't respond at length to this, but do want to make a few points. First, the OED is planning in the near future to published revised versions of out-of-sequence entries; in other words, we will be able to work on existing entries (in contrast to our current practice of editing in alphabetical sequence only, and publishing new-word updates from anywhere in the alphabet). This should address some of the concerns relating to major entries that have flaws. Second, much of this work is _extremely_ time consuming. It may look obvious that if there's a bogus quotation or a prominent antedating, you can just take it out or slip it in, but it usually doesn't work like that--there are a lot of things to consider, entries might have to be rewritten, etymologists consulted, consultants consulted, etc. Revising the entry for _jazz_ will be a major effort--one which we will likely undertake, but not one that can be approximated by pulling the 1909 quote and sneaking in the 1912. We appreciate the frustration that surrounds OED's frequent outdatedness, and we have various plans to deal with it. We are also of course grateful for the enormous contributions made by outside volunteers, many of whom are on this list. But the revision process is not a simple process, I'm afraid. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 15:52:52 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191338.l9JAlVNB032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. Scot > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> > Main Entry: tsu·na·mi> Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mÄ“\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Date: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500> > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Scot LaFaive> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Something like that.> > =20> > Scot> > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful.> >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=> > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=> > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=> > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: => > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------=> > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks => > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=> > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=> > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=> > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though=> > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving=> > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped => > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac=> > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------=> > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/=> > /www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0=> > Get it now.> > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062=> > 6971033=> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 19 15:54:39 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:54:39 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <001e01c8125b$67441c60$6601a8c0@viper> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:21:54AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > Going beyond simply correcting known errors faster, a neat feature would be > inclusion of "unedited" citations in the online edition. A button, similar > to the one that displays the 2nd Edition entry, could display > unedited/unverified citations when the reader requests. You could even have > a comment feature where readers could send in or comment on citations by > clicking through. (Probably not public comments, given the nature of the > OED, but ones that go directly to a database for consideration by the > editors when they get to that word in the revision cycle. Make submitting > citations and corrections easier.) > > This would be a fair amount of work to implement and maintain (and I imagine > that it's probably not practical to put every citation in the Oxford > database online--some I understand are still on paper slips), but it could > end up generating more material and saving effort in the long run by > engaging a wider group in helping with the editing. And you'd still maintain > quality control by having the "official" edited entry. And it would make the > dictionary more valuable by pointing researchers to citations that they > otherwise might miss--they'd have to verify them themselves, of course. I think doing something like this would prove to be extremely confusing and useless to almost everyone who looked at it, unless an extremely large amount of editorial effort were involved. (An example where such effort has been expended is the OED's science fiction project, at http://www.jessesword.com/sf, which does in fact link to the OED's citation databases for the relevant words, but even here there are significant problems with the list.) As someone who gets to see the kind of comments the OED gets from the general public, trust me when I say that encouraging more of this would involve an exceptional amount of editorial time and energy with very little positive result. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 19 16:03:42 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:03:42 EDT Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, 11 people were credited for Bloody Mary," but the first citation was found me (uncredited) me? It took me a great many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 16:46:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191338.l9JAlVNB032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an earthquake or volcanic eruption. The morpheme tsu (津) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (波) means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English, which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave. * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguages.wordpress.com Tom Zurinskas wrote: > From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com > > Main Entry: tsu·na·mi > Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mÄ“\ > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami > Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave > Date: 1897 > : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 16:55:16 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:55:16 -0500 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710191603.l9JFdOcO032254@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE As I understand it, these names are not those people who researched a term, but those who sent info to the "B&P" team who were producing the show. I sent contributions to 'balderdash at bbc.co.uk'. They weren't useful, so I don't appear in the Hall of Fame. I suppose I could have sent the early Bloody Mary citation you found to them, and appeared on the list. But that's not how I roll. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry A. Popik > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:04 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, > 11 people were credited for Bloody Mary," but the first > citation was found me (uncredited) me? It took me a great > many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Oct 19 17:28:41 2007 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:28:41 +0100 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <200710191554.l9JAlVs7027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I think doing something like this would prove to be extremely > confusing and useless to almost everyone who looked at it, > unless an extremely large amount of editorial effort were > involved. (An example where such effort has been expended is > the OED's science fiction project, at > http://www.jessesword.com/sf, which does in fact link to the > OED's citation databases for the relevant words, but even here > there are significant problems with the list.) > > As someone who gets to see the kind of comments the OED gets > from the general public, trust me when I say that encouraging > more of this would involve an exceptional amount of editorial > time and energy with very little positive result. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > Jesse is absolutely right. The public at large may be well-meaning, but lexicographical professionals and/or scholars they are not. As I suggested in a talk at this year's DSNA, the finding of antedates is still pretty much a lottery, but those of us who pursue the task as professionals are still the best qualified for the task. When the OED put out their list of terms to be antedated for this year's series of Balderdash & Piffle I found that of the slang examples my database could better two-thirds and equal the remainder. My intention is not to boast: this is my job, I _ought_ to be able to do so. My partner Susie Ford, researching for me at the British Library on a vast range of slang-related materials, finds antedates great and small almost every working day. We don't parade them, it's simply one part - and undoubtedly a satisfying one - of what we do in making a dictionary. The producers of B&P filmed me for two shows, and used one; their problem being, I was told, that they couldn't keep throwing forward the same smart-ass. Quite right, but as Jesse implies, and as the B&P team told me, while the public are keen, all too often it's a matter of 'my grandmother/great-uncle/milkman's mother-in-law' used to say....' And nary a syllable's supporting data. Or, if etymologies are essayed, that for instance the great monosyllable is _definitely_ an acronym of 'fornicate under command of the king'. Of course we cannot expect them to be lexicographers, but that's the point; they aren't and the best of intentions won't make it so. And as Jesse points out, such a flood of ultimately irrelevant information merely clogs the machine - and its maintenance requires more than enough energy as it is. JG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 18:38:02 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:38:02 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191553.l9JAl045027421@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think pronouncing those silent letters is a worthy pursuit. So many pronunciations are capricious. One that follows the alphabetic principle is following what letters were always supposed to do, stand for sounds. I'd be interested to see folks reactions when you speak them. I hear the "t" coming out in "often", though my grade school nuns said "no, no, no". Why can't those other silent letters come out as well. If "chord" were pronounced with a "ch" there would be no confusion between "cord" and ~chord. I wunder what the true Japanese pronunciation of tsunami is? Stress on nam? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 -0500 > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pro= > nunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. > =20 > Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the= > "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. > =20 > Scot > =20 >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subjec= > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS= > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea= > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Si= > lver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -----------------= > -------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks lik= > e "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and = > hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic pri= > nciple. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not hav= > e the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated -= > 1851, see m-w.com>> Main Entry: tsu=C2=B7na=C2=B7mi> Pronunciation: \(t)s= > u=CC=87-=CB=88n=C3=A4-m=C4=93\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural t= > sunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Dat= > e: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement= > or volcanic eruption : tidal wave>> (Note that the dot over the u did not= > copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem= > . No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronu= > nciation.>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com -= > and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.>>> = >>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500>> From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.= > COM>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Secur= > ity)>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> ---------------------- Information= > from the mail header ----------------------->> Sender: American Dialect S= > ociety>> Poster: Scot LaFaive>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boo= > mer" files for Social Security)>> ----------------------------------------= > --------------------------------------->>>> Something like that.>> =3D20= >>> Scot>> PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful.>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2= > 007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=3D>> t: Re: "Silver= > Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=3D>> -L at LIST= > SERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=3D>> d= > er -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> P= > oster: Benjamin Barrett> Subject: Re: =3D>> "Silver Tsunami" (first "boom= > er" files for Social Security)> --------------=3D>> ----------------------= > ------------------------------------------->> Looks =3D>> like circular tr= > oll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=3D>> was - why t= > he term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=3D>> ne sa= > id "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=3D> = >> e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even thou= > gh=3D>> it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble= > driving=3D>> through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave"= > is dropped =3D>> and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, = > unless "tsunami" ac=3D>> tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>>= > ------------------------=3D>> ------------------------------------> The A= > merican Dialect Society - http:/=3D>> /www.americandialect.org>> ________= > _________________________________________________________>> Windows Live H= > otmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =3D96 together at last. =3DA0=3D>> Get= > it now.>> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?p= > id=3D3DCL10062=3D>> 6971033=3D>>>> -------------------------------------= > ----------------------->> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americ= > andialect.org>> __________________________________________________________= > _______> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf= > =C3=A9. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.= > html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline>> -------------------------------------= > -----------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.american= > dialect.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = > challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= > t= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 19 18:47:25 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:47:25 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2007, at 07:35, Stephen Goranson wrote: > A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great > improvements and speed contributions to learning. Jesse and Jonathon have very ably responded already, but I think this point needs to be further responded to. I believe that "jazz" is a pet word for a handful of people. I believe most people--scholars and musicians included--could give two poots in a puddle about it. There are many pet words like that. "Emo" is a hotly contested words for a certain crowd. Should lexicographers prefer to work on entries for pet words over any other part of a dictionary? No, they shouldn't. There are limited budgets, limited personnel, and limited time. Even unpaid reading programs cost precious pounds. Flights of fancy to work on pet words may satisfy individuals, but not the larger goal of the project. To put Jesse's point a different way: Every task in dictionary-making is "simple," but there are oodles of simple tasks to each entry that make up the time-consuming editing process. Once you crack open an entry to make a quotation change, you are compelled to review the entire thing. Does the new quote change any editorial notes? Does it introduce new evidence that needs supporting or refuting? Do we refer to that quote in another entry? There's always more than a simple thing to fix. Looking at this from a different angle, I'd say that excessive attention to finding antedatings has distracted some very fine minds that might better spend their time finding words which are so far unrecorded in any dictionary. Antedatings are fun but rarely profitable nor informative beyond the date itself. (Though I do have that lexicographer's disease--one of many--that would like to see "jazz" made right just for the sake of accuracy.) Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of your colleagues. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 19 19:19:32 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:19:32 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You forget that the so-called "alphabetical principle" is simply 'pronounce the words the way) *I* say is best'. Alice-in-Wonderland lexicography, in short. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Scot LaFaive Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. Scot > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> > Main Entry: tsu·na·mi> Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mÄ“\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japan! ese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Date: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500> > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Scot LaFaive> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Somet! hing like that.> > =20> > Scot> > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorf u l.> >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=> > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=> > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=> > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: => > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------=> > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks => > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=> > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=> > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=> > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though=> > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving=> > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is droppe! d => > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac=> > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------=> > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/=> > /www.americandialect.org> >_________________________________________________________________> > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0=> > Get it now.> > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062=> > 6971033=> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >_________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Societ! y - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 20:17:35 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:17:35 -0400 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") Message-ID: OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under Britain's strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my website and also on Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L and clearly known to OED. No one at OED can know this?...Maybe Jessica Seinfeld (famous cookbook author) can take credit for my food work...Gotta do some work on "wet burritos" and "saddle-style" burritos. Any OED entry under "saddle"?...This unpaid, unloved work never ends. ... Maybe some old New Yorkers here remember "mello rolls" and can help with the below. There's surprisingly little on the web, and the term does not appear to be trademarked..."Up your hole with a mello roll" ("Up your nose with a rubber hose") is a shocking omission in the otherwise brilliant Yale Book of Quotations. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/mello_roll_or_mell_o_roll_up_your_hole_with_a_mello_roll/ ... Entry from October 19, 2007 Mello Roll or Mell-O-Roll ("Up your hole with a Mello Roll!") Mello rolls (also sometimes spelled "mello-rolls" or "mell-o-rolls," perhaps like "jell-o") were ice cream treats, somewhat like ice cream cones. They were popular in the Bronx and in Brooklyn; many people remember them served at Jones Beach in the 1940s and 1950s. The television show Welcome Back, Kotter (1975-1979) was based on comedian Gabriel Kaplan's life, as expressed in his comedy album Holes and Mello-Rolls. One joke line on the tv show—"Up your nose with a rubber hose!"—was originally recalled by Kaplan as ""Up your hole with a mello roll!" Back in the Bronx: Celebrating the Experience of Growing Up and Living in the Bronx (http://www.backinthebronx.com) Volume III, Issue IX, pg. 10: Proverbs & Sayings (...) 14. Charlotte Russe...Sponge cake in a cylindrical body of cardboard with a lot of whipped cream and as you eat it, you push it up from the bottom. 15. Mello Roll...Ice cream wrapped in a cylindrical shape that you peeled off the wrapper and pushed in a special mello roll cone. Newsday New Yorkers share Jones Beach memories (...) "I have been going to Jones Beach since 1955. I remember Field 9 and when I hike around out there now, I find pieces of the old parking lot coming up through the sand. They sold Mell-Rolls at the concession there—a concession shaped like the pilot house of a ship. Mello-Rolls were a cylindrical chunt of vanilla ice cream wrapped in paper which would be unrolled and placed into a wafer cone." —Bill Picchioni Rockville Centre Boomer Baby Memories; Food Mello roll and Charlotte Russe Growing up in Brooklyn there was a candy store on practically every corner and a bakery a few blocks away. Two of my favorites were Mello Rolls and Charlotte Russes. The challenge was to get the Mello Roll onto the cone without it falling on the floor. It took a lot of practice but it was worth the effort! --- Jeannie M. South Florida (formerly Brooklyn) - 1946 6 December 1970, New York (NY) Times, pg. 229 ad: Complete Mello-Roll Machine and Hardener 11 January 1976, New York (NY) Times, "Comedy Disks From Carlin to Kaplan to Klein" by Shaun Considine, pg. D17: A blurb on the cover of Gabriel Kaplan's "Holes and Mello-Rolls" claims that his hit TV show, "Welcome Back, Kotter," was inspired by this album. Internet Movie Database Memorable quotes for My Favorite Year (1982) Sy: We're talkin' future generations here. We're discussing morals. Alice Miller: [for Herb] You're not qualified to discuss morals, Sy. Sy: Up your hole with a Mello Roll, Alice! You too, Herb! Google Books Loving Women: a novel of the fifties by Pete Hamill New York, NY: Random House 1989 Pg. 192: "Up your hole with a Mell-o-roll, coppers, you ain't takin' me alive!" 12 February 1989, New York Times, "On Language" by William Safire, pg. SM10: "All my age cohorts [sic—should be "all members of my age cohort"] fondly recall the fat cylinders of ice cream called Mello-Rolls," writes Ruth B. Roufberg of Kendall Park, N.J. "They were wrapped in two overlapping strips of paper, which, when pulled from opposite directions, exposed the cylinder and neatly deposited it into the ice-cream cone." Funny how so many people miss Mello-Rolls. "When you licked the ice cream," explains Patricia Maloney Bernstein of Great Neck, L.I., "the roll shape caused it to turn round in its cone, so as the ice cream melted it did not run down the outside of the cone, but rather melted within the cone, running down into the hollow in the handle." 31 December 1989, New York Times, "Looking Back at a Disappointing Decade" by Marcia Byalick, pg. LI14: For me the last decade had no memories as sweet as charlotte russes or mello rolls. 18 October 1992, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 7, pg. 6, col. 2: "And Mello Rolls in a cup with sprinkles. Mello Rolls were sort of ice cream cones, but they weren't scoops, they were more oval-shaped." (Review of the book When You're From Brooklyn, Everything Else is Tokyo by Larry King with Marty Appel—ed.) Daily (University of Washington Student Newspaper) January 25, 1996 Welcome Back, Kaplan Another show, another time Hans Ruegamer Daily Staff (...) Part of the show's living legacy is the number of catch phrases it developed. Ranging from Lawrence Jacobs' deep-voiced "Hi, there" to Ron Palillo's high-pitched "Oooo!" "Most of the stuff came from my high school," Kaplan said. "The real phrase was 'Up your hole with a Mello roll.' A Mello roll was a like an ice cream they sold in New York and that was a standard catch phrase on the street. If you insulted anybody, you said something like that or something about their parents. And that became part of the beginnings of the show and then we got away from that." "We had to change it of course for television - to 'Up your nose with a rubber hose.' And then one show the censor got upset about us saying that and he said, 'You have to say, "Up your nose with a garden hose."' "I said, 'Why,' just out of curiosity, and he said, "Well, you can do a lot of damage to someone with a rubber hose.' They had these weird censorship things. And after the next week they said we could say rubber hose again. But there's one show where we say 'Up your nose with a garden hose.'" BronxRoots-L From: Mike < kombucha at ticnet.com> Subject: Re: Mello-Roll Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:05:19 -0600 References: <20010328203751.24626.qmail at web1301.mail.yahoo.com> Marc et-yoozal, The mello-roll cone was of the "waffle" variety, and not of the "sugar-cone" variety which was crunchy. The stem of the cone had a flat bottom instead of a point. On the top it had a rectangular opening about 2.5 inches by about 1.25 inches which nested the mellow-roll. The ice cream was a cylinder a bit larger than a flashlight battery, and it had a paper wrapper with a tab that ran along it lenghtwise. There was an art to placing the roll in the cone, and then pulling the paper off as the roll rotated. I remember vanilla, but am not sure if it cam in other flavors. It was a favorite cuss to say… "Up your nose with a garden hose, and up your hole with a mello-roll!" Food of the Eighties Shayne Genoway - May 04, 2007 I was trying to find information about Mello-Roll ice cream with not too much luck. Try explaining the concept to your grandchildren and it becomes a task in futility, and much laughter on their part. They can't grasp the concept of ice cream that came wrapped in something that looked like the center cardboard roll on our toilet paper, with ice cream stuffed inside. That was the only way I could think of explaining it to them. You then had to unravel the cone around the ice cream which sat inside a cone that was also round so the ice cream sat neatly into the cone. Weird, isn't it, just trying to describe it. I remember them well because my dad had a variety store at the time, and I remember him serving them to the kids coming into the store. He would pull a part of the paper off, and fit the exposed part of the ice cream into the cone. When he figured it was in tight enough, he unrolled the rest of the paper off and handed the cone to the customer. The Mello-Roll ice cream could be handled with his hands at all times because it was protected by this paper. It was about the size of the inside cardboard roll of toilet paper, and that's exactly what it looked like standing on end inside the cone. For it's time it was convenient for the store keeper, he didn't need to worry about a scoop, just reach in pull one out, and unwrap it. Simple, easy, and efficient when I think about it now. It'd sure be nice if someone came up with a picture of one from somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 20:36:33 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:36:33 -0700 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The folks at BBC/Balderdash & Piffle asked for help antedating certain words, which information would then be used to update the OED references. In fact, I think I first heard of it from something Fred Shapiro posted here. Easily amused by the sorting and surfing, I checked a few out and sent a few antedate bits in and made the list. If you didn't send one in =to the Balderdash & Piffle folks=, you wouldn't be on the acknowledgments page. Simple. That said, if you look at the backdating the OED online's showing for Bloody Mary [ref:], your references backdate theirs. Maybe you should let the OED know. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious On 10/19/07, Barry A. Popik wrote: > I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, 11 people were > credited for Bloody Mary," but the first citation was found me (uncredited) > me? It took me a great many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 23:27:05 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:27:05 -0500 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710192017.l9JAlV2B032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under > Britain's strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my > website and also on Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L > and clearly known to OED. No one at OED can know > this?... In what possible way have you been libelled? They haven't said anything bad about you. Takeaway Media produced a show, "Balderdash & Piffle," about antedating words. They asked for help with a project they called "Wordhunt". You didn't give them any. They didn't list you as helping when they put together the Wordhunt Hall of Fame. To paraphrase Sgt. Hulka from that great movie, "Stripes", "Lighten up, Barry!" Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 00:35:17 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:35:17 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191646.l9JAlVjH032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A good point. So why should Americans be subject to the replacement of a word they already know, such as "tidal wave" by a word they have trouble pronouncing, tsunami, or looking up because it starts with a silent letter, or connot fathom the relevance of because of the invisible morphology that makes it relevant. At least the word "tidal wave" is something that is spellable, lookupable, and intuitive as to meaning based on English morphology. So as an American in the American Dialect Society, I believe the word "tidal wave" should be retained because, according to m-w.com, it antedates the word tsunami, is more intuitive as to meaning, and is more pronouncable and spellable. To me there is no more redeamable quality to tsunami than changing hurricane to typhoon. Is that next? So my vote is tidal wave over tsunami. I find no sense in changing. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an > earthquake or volcanic eruption. > > The morpheme tsu (æ´¥) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (æ³¢) > means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English, > which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave. > > * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I > don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami. > > Benjamin Barrett > a cyberbreath for language life > livinglanguages.wordpress.com > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com >> >> Main Entry: tsu·na·mi >> Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mÄ“\ >> Function: noun >> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami >> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave >> Date: 1897 >> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:38:38 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:38:38 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710200035.l9JNoIF9032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geez. How about we give it a rest. People use what they want. If you want to use "tidal wave," then use it, but I for one will use "tsunami" because I prefer it. More flavorful. ADS isn't going to make some grand decision that will enforce language rules among all American speakers, so please give the platforming a break. Scot > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:35:17 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > A good point. So why should Americans be subject to the replacement of a word they already know, such as "tidal wave"> by a word they have trouble pronouncing, tsunami, or looking up because it starts with a silent letter, or connot fathom> the relevance of because of the invisible morphology that makes it relevant. At least the word "tidal wave" is something> that is spellable, lookupable, and intuitive as to meaning based on English morphology.> > So as an American in the American Dialect Society, I believe the word "tidal wave" should be retained because,> according to m-w.com, it antedates the word tsunami, is more intuitive as to meaning, and is more pronouncable> and spellable. To me there is no more redeamable quality to tsunami than changing hurricane to typhoon.> Is that next? So my vote is tidal wave over tsunami. I find no sense in changing.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700> > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Benjamin Barrett> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an> > earthquake or volcanic eruption.> >> > The morpheme tsu (æ´¥) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (æ³¢)> > means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English,> > which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave.> >> > * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I> > don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami.> >> > Benjamin Barrett> > a cyberbreath for language life> > livinglanguages.wordpress.com> >> > Tom Zurinskas wrote:> >> From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> >>> >> Main Entry: tsu·na·mi> >> Pronunciation: \(t)su̇-ˈnä-mÄ“\> >> Function: noun> >> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> >> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> >> Date: 1897> >> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> >>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:38:58 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:38:58 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= Re: [ADS-L] Gism (1 901): a second thought Message-ID: Surely jism is both Irish and Yiddish. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:46:37 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:46:37 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: HISPANIC OR MEXICAN ... The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 20 02:07:13 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:07:13 -0500 Subject: "Bloody Mary"; was: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: The reference is: Barry Popik: "Origin of the Bloody Mary Drink in a Parisian Watering Hole for Americans, 1919 or 1921," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 29, no. 8, May 2000 (sic; not 2001), pp. 24-27. As usual, fine work, Barry. Gerald Cohen Original message from: Barry Popik, Fri 10/19/2007 8:46 PM ... My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 02:41:49 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:41:49 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Jesse, While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the 1912 quote would require. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 11:48 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Second, much of this work is _extremely_ time consuming. It may look obvious that if there's a bogus quotation or a prominent antedating, you can just take it out or slip it in, but it usually doesn't work like that--there are a lot of things to consider, entries might have to be rewritten, etymologists consulted, consultants consulted, etc. Revising the entry for _jazz_ will be a major effort--one which we will likely undertake, but not one that can be approximated by pulling the 1909 quote and sneaking in the 1912. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 02:38:01 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:38:01 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: In fairness to the OED, Jesse did post the following here on 1/4/2007, at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0701A&L=ADS-L&P=R16218&I=-3: By the way, anyone with antedatings of the dates _published on the Balderdash & Piffle site_--i.e., including Barry for _Bloody Mary_, John/Fred for _shaggy dog story_, etc., please _send it in to the site_. You'll get listed there, as Fred was last time, if you do so. If you just send it to me or directly to OED, you likely won't. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Barry Popik Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 03:11:09 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:11:09 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: <200710200146.l9K104XF027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Hispanic or Mexican" makes as much sense as "African-American or Black." -Wilson On 10/19/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > HISPANIC OR MEXICAN > ... > The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some > detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why > it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) > ... > I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually > very careful about them. > ... > The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't > know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of > the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years > ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" > date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got > credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. > ... > OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit > here, but it didn't. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 20 03:11:44 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:11:44 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:41:49PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > Jesse, > > While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as > well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why > the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That > one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that > could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the > 1912 quote would require. I disagree. First of all, the quote exists in OED2, and is widely (if incorrectly) referred to in other sources. So if we take it out, we'd have to add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated," etc., so that people looking in OED and not finding this quote would know why it's not there. Then we're left with the 1913 quote as the first use. But wait! That quote, despite appearances, doesn't refer to music. Do we leave it in (because we're not revising, we're just pulling the bogus 1909 quote), or do we take it out (because it's also bogus, if in a different way)? If we take it out, then the first quote for _jazz_ is 1917 (and that quote retails an invented etymology, but that's beside the point). Then we have a sense 1 that's from 1917, but a sense 2 from 1913, so these are out of order. Do we leave them in a wrong order? Or do we switch them around, perhaps messing up other cross-references, either within the OED or in other sources? We do have earlier evidence than 1917 now, but do we put it in? No, we're not revising. And so forth. I'm sure there are circumstances where a bogus first quote could be removed more easily, but this is certainly not one of them. Pulling this would require significant editorial consideration even if we were trying to keep it simple. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 04:16:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:16:30 -0400 Subject: Gism (1901): a second thought In-Reply-To: <200710190319.l9IMKcAw005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I was in grade school, ca.1943, a classmate once used "[gIzm]pipe" for "windpipe." He was ridiculed to the extent that he didn't use it again. Back in the day, "gism" [dZIzm] in any meaning was unknown. I eventually learned of its existence, in the "semen" meaning, by reading exotic literature, ca.1960. It remains a literary term for me. -Wilson On 10/18/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Gism (1901): a second thought > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >---------- > > > >E. D. Gillespie, _A Book of Remembrances_ (Lippincott, Philadelphia, > >1901): p. 33: > > > >< >story to my grandmother she instantly wrote these verses: / ... / > >"Now, mother, when we wish to soar / And cut a dash at 'Bellespore,' > >/ You will repeat some vulgarism, / What we call nectar you call gism.">> > > > >---------- > > > >This verse, ostensibly quoted from E. D. Gillespie's mother, would > >have been written around 1800, I think. The context: a bookish girl > >had claimed that her sister had gone out to read poetry ("Night > >Thoughts"), but their unpretentious mother had spoiled the illusion > >by saying that the girl had gone out to get "a mess of poke". > > > >I don't know what "Bellespore" means ("Belle Espoir"?). > > > >What does "gism" mean here? > > What pronunciation is expressed by "gism" here? Is this isolated > ca.-1800 word /gIzm/ or /dZIzm/? > > If it's /dZIzm/ (like "jism") it's surely reasonable to _try_ to > relate it to the "jism" later used for "spirit"/"vigor" or so and for "semen". > > But what if it's /gIzm/? > > Then one might attempt an association with dialectal > "gizzen"/"gizzern"/"gizzem"/etc. = "gizzard"/"throat", right? SND > shows "gizzern" with variants. DARE shows "gizzle" = "goozle" = > "goozlem" = "guzzle" = "throat". Also "goozlum" = "viscous food such > as a sauce, gravy, or pudding ...". > > IF there was a word (ca. 1800) pronounced /gIzm/ meaning "gravy" or > so, it would explain the "gism" in the above quotation. But how (if > at all) would one relate it to the later "gism"/"jism"? Is a /g/ > > /dZ/ mutation explainable/believable? > > Also note "gizzard" (in HDAS, etc.) with sense similar to "jism"/"jasm". > > Any thoughts? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 05:03:51 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:03:51 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710190313.l9IJ8l11000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you simply rising to the challenge? FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, > >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! > > > >-Wilson > > The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's > (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' > chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, > although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is > that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried > okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) > > LH > > > > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? > >>East Texas?) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and > >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from > >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a > >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to > >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased > >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >> > > >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the > >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig > >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may > >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. > >> >Who knows? > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and > >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, > >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. > >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took > >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. > >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure > >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be > >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into > >> a dry okratini every night...) > >> > >> LH > >> > >> > > >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the > >> >>mail header ----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Barry Popik > >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? > >>East Texas?) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> Anyone remember this? > >> >> ... > >> >> ... > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > >> >> ... > >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 > >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my > >>socks up!" > >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > >> >> fried okra instead. > >> >> > >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > >> >> up. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Food Tale: Okra > >> >> Okra > >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) > >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > >> >> > >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > >> >> > >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > >> >> coffee substitute. > >> >> > >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > >> >> > >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> >> (...) > >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high > >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. > >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. > >> > > Okra! > >> >> > >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > >> >> at its best. > >> >> (...) > >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey > >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > >> >> > >> >> Google Books > >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. > >> >> > >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > >> >> out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > >> >> > >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > >> >> Monthly. > >> >> > >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > >> >> is a dilly." > >> >> > >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > > >> > >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up > >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > >> >> Homer.)" > >> >> > >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > >> >> slipping out." > >> >> > >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss > >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss > >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > >> >> > >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > >> >> appetizing! > >> >> > >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > >> >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > >> >> From: "Nancy" > >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 > >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> >> > >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > >> >> > >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > >> >> keep us from sliding out." > >> >> > >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal > >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > >> >> (...) > >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > >> >> slimey! > >> >> > >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > >> >> > >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > >> >> October 03, 2006 > >> >> It's better if you fry it > >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > >> >> > >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > >> >> (...) > >> >> Comments > >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." > >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > >> >> > >> >> Food Network Forums > >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > >> >> > >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 05:09:08 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:09:08 -0400 Subject: My wife's NE PA opinion: Message-ID: "All cars look the same, anymore." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 20 05:24:36 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:24:36 -0400 Subject: you're not the boss of me (1883) Message-ID: A few years ago I posted a 1953 cite for "you're not the boss of me": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502d&L=ads-l&P=29568 But now Google Book Search beats that by 70 years. Details here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005037.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 06:36:50 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:36:50 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) Message-ID: I was browsing though a long Chowhound posting of "regional food quirks." There was a recent post by "RaiderCake" (Texas Tech Red Raiders in Lubbock) that said that in his college town, ranch dressing is called "sorority sauce." There don't seem to be many hits; maybe someone can check FACTIVA. ... It looks like a regional usage, possibly of interest to DARE for its next volume or to HDAS...Ranch dressing with chips?...Ranch dressing on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/sorority_sauce_ranch_dressing/ ... Entry from October 20, 2007 Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) "Sorority sauce" has been a slang nickname for "ketchup" since at least World War II. Since about 2006, ranch dressing has been called "sorority sauce" at Texas Tech University in Lubbock. The reasons for this are unknown, but many Texans have long loved ranch dressing. Wikipedia: Ranch dressing Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue cheese. 7 March 1942, Army Times, pg. 12, col. 1: G. I. Slang in P. I.: A Slightly Censored Glossary of Terms Used by MacArthur's Boys to Express Themselves Between Raids on Bataan (...) "Sorority sauce"—catsup. 23 September 1996, Syracuse (NY) Post-Standard, pg. 13?, col. 5: Winchester Sauce (also known as Sorority Sauce) Daily Toreador (Texas Tech) Cheers and jeers finish out year Abbie Kopf/Columnist Issue date: 5/1/06 Section: Opinion Most people I have met at Texas Tech develop a love-hate relationship with the city of Lubbock. Many students have some of the best times of their lives here, granted they still hate the city because there is nothing to do (though let's not forget the National Ranching Heritage Center). Though I use my columns to complain about the ills of society, I myself both love and hate Lubbock and Tech, and would like to offer some cheers and jeers as I leave to start a new phase in my life. Cheers to: Sorority girls. While it's true that as a waitress I tire of getting your kids meals and chips with ranch (we call it sorority sauce), I have to say that I believe that you ladies are getting a bad rap. Chowhound - Regional "Food Quirks" In the college town in Texas where I live, tortilla chips and salsa are served at practically every restaurant - but some people (namely, the college set) like to eat tortilla chips with ranch dressing, hence the nickname "sorority sauce" for ranch. And we have ranch on pizza here, too. RaiderCake Oct 14, 2007 07:15PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 20 14:04:52 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:04:52 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <200710200636.l9K104k1027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've long been (mildly) curious about the origins of the name _ranch dressing_. To my mind, a _ranch_ is a type of 'farm' for raising animals. The 'dressing' one usually finds in ranch fields is _not_ something I'd want on _my_ salad! Did RD originate as a clever marketer's idea, a joke, an abuse of poetic license, or all of the above? (the other) doug Definition of an anorexic's thin legs: Ill-gotten gams. =========================================================== Wikipedia: Ranch dressing Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue cheese. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 14:51:18 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:51:18 +0000 Subject: gator bag Message-ID: This came in a message on a neighborhood list serve--from a Durham NC city counsel member. It seems to refer to the practice of attaching canvas bags to the base of young trees. The bags are filled with water that then drips slowly onto the roots. Is this new? Where does it come from? THE QUOTE: "I believe we are making progress on the tree issue. I just spoke with Alex Johnson, City Arborist and Dorthea Pierce of Keep Durham Beautiful. They recommend the low flow gator bag process to water the two damaged trees and hopefully they will be installed soon." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sat Oct 20 16:15:28 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:15:28 -0400 Subject: Picky reader Message-ID: >From yesterday's *New York Times*: "Jessica Seinfeld, the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife, has a hot best seller with 'Deceptively Delicious,' a cookbook for parents of picky eaters." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/nyregion/19seinfeld.html "[T]he comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" instead of "wife of comedian Jerry Seinfeld"? Really? The former leaves a bad taste in my ears. What am I not getting? -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Oct 20 16:38:07 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:38:07 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <6A12A664-E7FC-4668-85F2-D39492CE70EF@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Grant Barrett advises Stephen Goranson: Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of your colleagues. I've been working on an article for one of the annual SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) on the origin of "jazz" in baseball. My hope is, that this article will alert these harmless crackpots that if they are reading early 20th C newspapers looking for news of their favorite teams and come upon the word "jazz", they have found something notable. I'm hoping that 1913 won't prove the earliest occurrence. For my part, as I read early 19th C newspapers, whenever I find the editor showing off a new word, giving his readers a nudge so that they will notice how up to date he is, putting a word or phrase in quotes, or italics, or introducing it with "as the boys say" or "to use a western expression" or the like, I make a note of it. This has produces some absolute antedatings, some antedatings for the U. S. (which the OED seems unconcerned with) and a few entirely new words. A problem with the fascination with antedatings is that occurrences that aren't antedatings are seen as valueless. But they may illustrate the word's meaning better than the original instance, or show a new nuance -- as the difference between "jazz" as "energy, spirit" and "jazz" as "nonsense, foolishness". The stuff I fuind that aren't antedatings I don't send here, usually, but I do send to Jonathan & Jonathon. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:51 pm Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > On Oct 19, 2007, at 07:35, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great > > improvements and speed contributions to learning. > > Jesse and Jonathon have very ably responded already, but I think this > point needs to be further responded to. > > I believe that "jazz" is a pet word for a handful of people. I > believe most people--scholars and musicians included--could give two > poots in a puddle about it. There are many pet words like that. "Emo" > is a hotly contested words for a certain crowd. > > Should lexicographers prefer to work on entries for pet words over > any other part of a dictionary? No, they shouldn't. There are limited > budgets, limited personnel, and limited time. Even unpaid reading > programs cost precious pounds. Flights of fancy to work on pet words > may satisfy individuals, but not the larger goal of the project. > > To put Jesse's point a different way: Every task in dictionary-making > is "simple," but there are oodles of simple tasks to each entry that > make up the time-consuming editing process. Once you crack open an > entry to make a quotation change, you are compelled to review the > entire thing. Does the new quote change any editorial notes? Does it > introduce new evidence that needs supporting or refuting? Do we refer > to that quote in another entry? There's always more than a simple > thing to fix. > > Looking at this from a different angle, I'd say that excessive > attention to finding antedatings has distracted some very fine minds > that might better spend their time finding words which are so far > unrecorded in any dictionary. Antedatings are fun but rarely > profitable nor informative beyond the date itself. (Though I do have > that lexicographer's disease--one of many--that would like to see > "jazz" made right just for the sake of accuracy.) > > Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. > Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then > sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the > true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times > has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, > interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of > your colleagues. > > Grant Barrett > Double-Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/ > editor at doubletongued.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:11:27 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:11:27 -0700 Subject: gator bag In-Reply-To: <1599474511-1192891902-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2054641777-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Short for "irrigator bag" I don't know who had the first product or developed the technology, but TreeGator, a brand name, might've put the name into common use. On 10/20/07, ronbutters at aol.com wrote: > This came in a message on a neighborhood list serve--from a Durham NC city counsel member. It seems to refer to the practice of attaching canvas bags to the base of young trees. The bags are filled with water that then drips slowly onto the roots. > > Is this new? Where does it come from? > > THE QUOTE: > > "I believe we are making progress on the tree issue. I just spoke with Alex Johnson, City Arborist and Dorthea Pierce of Keep Durham Beautiful. They recommend the low flow gator bag process to water the two damaged trees and hopefully they will be installed soon." > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:15:22 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:15:22 -0700 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <04f201c81322$2fc8be40$04fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: All you ever wanted to know about the origins of ranch dressing: On 10/20/07, Doug Harris wrote: > I've long been (mildly) curious about the origins of the > name _ranch dressing_. To my mind, a _ranch_ is a type of > 'farm' for raising animals. The 'dressing' one usually finds > in ranch fields is _not_ something I'd want on _my_ salad! > Did RD originate as a clever marketer's idea, a joke, an > abuse of poetic license, or all of the above? > > (the other) doug > > Definition of an anorexic's thin legs: Ill-gotten gams. > =========================================================== > > Wikipedia: Ranch dressing > Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of > buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other > seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two > styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue > cheese. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 20 17:34:58 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:34:58 -0500 Subject: "Jazz" reference --- was: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera,... Message-ID: Re: "jazz" (discussed in several recent ads-l messages), please don't overlook the following item: Gerald Cohen: "_Jazz_" Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #3." in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 35, no. 1-2, October-November 2005, 140 pp. ----- Btw, due credit is given throughout. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of George Thompson Sent: Sat 10/20/2007 11:38 AM I've been working on an article for one of the annual SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) on the origin of "jazz" in baseball. My hope is, that this article will alert these harmless crackpots that if they are reading early 20th C newspapers looking for news of their favorite teams and come upon the word "jazz", they have found something notable. I'm hoping that 1913 won't prove the earliest occurrence. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:41:08 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:41:08 +0000 Subject: Picky reader Message-ID: Sounds fine to me either way, except purists would require "wife of THE comedian Jerry Seinfeld"! What is wrong with "the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife"? Your tongue is in your ear??? ------Original Message------ From: Bonnie Taylor-Blake Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 20, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Picky reader >From yesterday's *New York Times*: "Jessica Seinfeld, the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife, has a hot best seller with 'Deceptively Delicious,' a cookbook for parents of picky eaters." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/nyregion/19seinfeld.html "[T]he comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" instead of "wife of comedian Jerry Seinfeld"? Really? The former leaves a bad taste in my ears. What am I not getting? -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 20 18:10:16 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:10:16 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apparently the Wordhunt people only gave credit to discoverers who directly contributed the information to them. This may indeed be the sensible way for them to proceed. Note, however, the following e-mail that I had sent them: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Fred Shapiro To: balderdash at bbc.co.uk Subject: Antedating of "Bloody Mary" Barry Popik discovered much earlier evidence five years ago: > From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 December 1939, pg. 9, col. 2: George Jessel's newest pick-me-up which is receiving attention from the town's paragraphers is called a Bloody Mary: half tomato juice, half vodka. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik [bapopik at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle HISPANIC OR MEXICAN ... The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 19:18:03 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:18:03 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Yes, I do indeed think that you should add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated." The quote that's there now is incorrect information. I believe it is incumbent upon OUP to make the necessary correction. In this regard, it would probably be most helpful not to delete the incorrect quote at the present time, but simply to add the necessary note that it is erroneously dated. I do not believe that any correction means that you must immediately re-edit the entire entry, or even rethink editorial decisions that now may seem questionable. It is inevitable that any reference work intended to be used over an extended period of time will eventually contain some outdated information that does not reflect the most current findings. But the problems that you cite with making a correction are problems that exist in any case, because people who pay attention to other sources already know that the 1909 cite is in error. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 11:11 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:41:49PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > Jesse, > > While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as > well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why > the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That > one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that > could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the > 1912 quote would require. I disagree. First of all, the quote exists in OED2, and is widely (if incorrectly) referred to in other sources. So if we take it out, we'd have to add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated," etc., so that people looking in OED and not finding this quote would know why it's not there. Then we're left with the 1913 quote as the first use. But wait! That quote, despite appearances, doesn't refer to music. Do we leave it in (because we're not revising, we're just pulling the bogus 1909 quote), or do we take it out (because it's also bogus, if in a different way)? If we take it out, then the first quote for _jazz_ is 1917 (and that quote retails an invented etymology, but that's beside the point). Then we have a sense 1 that's from 1917, but a sense 2 from 1913, so these are out of order. Do we leave them in a wrong order? Or do we switch them around, perhaps messing up other cross-references, either within the OED or in other sources? We do have earlier evidence than 1917 now, but do we put it in? No, we're not revising. And so forth. I'm sure there are circumstances where a bogus first quote could be removed more easily, but this is certainly not one of them. Pulling this would require significant editorial consideration even if we were trying to keep it simple. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 19:30:54 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:30:54 -0700 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/19/07, Barry Popik wrote: > HISPANIC OR MEXICAN > ... > The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some > detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why > it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. You can be Hispanic without being Mexican. You can also be Mexican without being Hispanic, as any Mexican with native Mexican blood will tell you. Things can get pretty dicey with some folks claiming their upscale Hispanic-French-German background (no peasant native Mexicans in the family tree, thankyouverymuch) while others are proud of their pure native Mexican ancestry and resent the Hispanic sneers and the folks who want to label them as Hispanic when, thankyouverymuch, they are not and don't want to be. The medical office had probably run into both types. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 20 20:32:35 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:32:35 -0700 Subject: "Yoot" resurfaces Message-ID: Wentworth & Flexner's _DAS_ from 1960 includes a citation of _yoot_ from the _N.Y. World-Telegram and Sun_ of Aug. 16, 1957 (no page number given): "Cop Shot: 3 Yoots* Held...(*Yoot: a young punk; a juvenile no-goodnik)." This p.m. Fox News alluded to "yoots," explaining that it meant "angry youths." By way of further explanation, "Yoots hate the Establishment." A protest demonstration at the meeting of the World Bank and International Money Fund was the context. A Fox reporter was surrounded by "yoots" who stole his camera. The film, _My Cousin Vinny_ (1992) was cited as the inspiration. Cinephiles will recall the word's appearance there. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Sat Oct 20 23:42:47 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:42:47 -0400 Subject: Okratini? In-Reply-To: <200710190402.l9IMwdcF000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Has Barry looked into this alleged okratini? I am another Northerner in the pro-okra contingent. ---Amy West >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >>God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >>abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >>of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >>DAD > >OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 02:41:19 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:19 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <200710200636.l9JIH0Mb027421@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ..Ranch dressing > on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? I thought ranch on pizza was a California thing. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 03:59:39 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:59:39 -0400 Subject: Okratini? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:42 PM -0400 10/20/07, Amy West wrote: >Has Barry looked into this alleged okratini? I thought I'd invented the word (not to mention the concept), but it turns out not so, as I learned from (who else?) Barry. From the archives: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:04:46 -0400 To: American Dialect Society From: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Okratini (1971) At 1:43 PM -0400 8/21/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >OKRATINI > > Larry once posted about this drink. > I went through about 75 hits for "cocktail" and "inventor" or "invented." >There were no big surprises, but I did come up with the "Okratini" and the >"Cocktail Suit." > > > 18 March 1971, COSHOCTON TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg.7B, col. 5: > In New York, a Tex-Mex restaurant has invented a cocktail called the >"okratini." Essentially it's a martini, but is served with a pickled okra pod >instead of an olive. > I can't believe it. Scooped by the Coshocton Trib! Well, it's good to know, before I applied for a patent. Thanks, Barry. --Larry, who was drinking okratinis in the 60's in L.A. but never got written up in Coshocton. P.S. I wonder what they mean by "essentially". Of course, an *echt* okratini requires not just any old pickled okra pod, but one from a jar of Talk O' Texas HOT Crisp OKRA PICKLES (look for the cowboy and lasso on the label). > >I am another Northerner in the pro-okra contingent. > >---Amy West > >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 >>From: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >> >>At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >>>God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >>>abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >>>of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >>>DAD >> >>OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 04:14:13 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:14:13 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710192203j6b47be47iae1f35ef9a7c31b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you >simply rising to the challenge? > >FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, >sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa >salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be >told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, >collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how >parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for >drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! > >-Wilson I'd go for any of the above except the candied yams, which are too sweet for me. Oursins, asa I like to think of them, are fine little critters, but not necessarily worth the effort, and those greens and roots are great. If I could have a bit of those scotch bonnets to squeeze into the pot likker or corn bread to sop in it, I'd be down with that too. (If I had my druthers, though, I'd opt for the "broth" made when you dip a mess o' steamer clams into hot water to wash off the sand. Is there a name for that? Clam likker?) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >> >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >> (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >> chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >> although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >> that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >> okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >> > >> >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >> >Who knows? >> >> > >> >> >-Wilson >> >> >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> >> a dry okratini every night...) > > >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> > >> >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >> >> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >>>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> >> ... >> >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >> >>socks up!" >> >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people >>survived on >> >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer >>the less slimy >> >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic >>Monthly hints >> >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping >>your socks >> >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> >> Okra >> >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by >>the Egyptians >> >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the >>central lands >> >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and >>ultimately to the >> >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no >>time at all it >> >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried >>okra, of course, >> >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern >>climes, but >> >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed >>alone or with >> >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this >>recipe to be >> >> >> at its best. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as >>"silky," a >> >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, >>especially >> >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. >But I refuse >> >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes >>like this: When >> >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > >> >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi >>McCulloch found the >> >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression >>was: "I ate >> >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes >>out slimy for >> >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I >>nearly slid >> >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" >>by Frank X. >> >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the >>august Atlantic >> >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers >>wrote. "But in >> >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the >>Atlantic Monthly >> >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind >>if I print >> >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> > > >> >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid >>by...He keeps >> >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: >>Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> >> Newsgroups: >>alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to >>have eaten so >> >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> >> keep us from sliding out." > > >> >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > > >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been >>familiar with it a >> >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a >>finicky eater. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the >>fantods. Do >> >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Comments >> >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate >>so much as a >> >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have >>had is just >> >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> >----- >> >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 04:41:33 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:41:33 -0400 Subject: Wet Burrito; NYC Deli Food Joke - "72 hours later, you're hungry again" Message-ID: WET BURRITO ... I did a post on the "wet burrito" ("burrito enchilada style"), if OED or DARE is interested. ... WET BURRITO--17,200 Google hits WET BURRITOS--9,990 Google hits BURRITOS + ENCHILADA STYLE--740 Google hits ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/wet_burrito_burrito_enchilada_style/ ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NYC DELI FOOD JOKE -- "72 HOURS LATER, YOU'RE HUNGRY AGAIN" ... The Sunday New York Times Magazine has a lengthy story on the nearly vanished Jewish deli in New York City. This quote is almost always attributed to the late NY Times writer Richard F. Shepard, but I tried many keywords in the NY Times archive (I have access through the Westbank library in Austin) and couldn't find it in his work. The quote does appear in the following Google-restricted book, but that dates from 1982. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Live and Be Well: A Celebration of Yiddish Culture in America by Richard F. Shepard, Vicki Gold Levi - Social Science - 2000 - 198 pages [ Sorry, this page's content is restricted ] (Originally published in 1982 -- B.P.) ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/72_hours_later_youre_hungry_again_joke_about_eating_deli_food/ ... Entry from October 20, 2007 "72 hours later, you're hungry again" (joke about eating deli food) The old line about Chinese food is that it isn't filling: "A few hours later, you're hungry again." New York's Jewish delis are known for their overstuffed sandwiches, prompting the joke: "72 hours later, you're hungry again." The line is often attributed to the late New York Times cultural reporter Richard F. Shepard, but it appears in a 1972 New York Times story by food writer Raymond Sokolov. New York Times March 7, 1998 Richard F. Shepard, 75, Editor And a Writer for The Times By ERIC PACE Richard F. Shepard, a retired New York Times writer who was also a former cultural news editor of The Times and was known for his amiably down-to-earth manner, which included meeting friends at a Theater District cafe he called ''the Polish Tea Room,'' died last night at his home in Fresh Meadows, Queens. He was 75 years old. 31 December 1972, New York Times, "Filling finger food" by Raymond Sokolov, pg. SM25: Many rude things have been said about Jewish food—that it is the major cause of heartburn in the New York area, that, after eating it, you get hungry 72 hours later and so on. These slurs most often come out of the mouths of people stuffing themselves with Jewish food. Save The Deli New York Times: Summary of the Deli Conference Thursday, August 2nd, 2007 (...) The food historian Joel Denker began his presentation by invoking Richard F. Shepard, a New York Times reporter who has since died and who once said, "I love Jewish food, but when you eat, 72 hours later, you're hungry again." New York Times A Counter History Published: October 21, 2007 (...) Or as the New York Times reporter and deli aficionado Richard F. Shepard used to say, "I love Jewish food, but when you eat it, 72 hours later you're hungry again." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 14:36:37 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:36:37 +0000 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With all due respect, guys, the D in ADSL stands for DIALECT, not DIET. If you are going to post your "witty" private conversations to the entire list, could you PLEASE label them "Off Topic?" It isn't just that you are clogging my mailbox--I do not like to delete unopened messages from you two because they are often so interesting. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:14:13 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you >simply rising to the challenge? > >FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, >sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa >salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be >told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, >collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how >parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for >drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! > >-Wilson I'd go for any of the above except the candied yams, which are too sweet for me. Oursins, asa I like to think of them, are fine little critters, but not necessarily worth the effort, and those greens and roots are great. If I could have a bit of those scotch bonnets to squeeze into the pot likker or corn bread to sop in it, I'd be down with that too. (If I had my druthers, though, I'd opt for the "broth" made when you dip a mess o' steamer clams into hot water to wash off the sand. Is there a name for that? Clam likker?) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >> >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >> (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >> chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >> although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >> that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >> okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >> > >> >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >> >Who knows? >> >> > >> >> >-Wilson >> >> >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> >> a dry okratini every night...) > > >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> > >> >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >> >> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >>>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> >> ... >> >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >> >>socks up!" >> >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people >>survived on >> >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer >>the less slimy >> >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic >>Monthly hints >> >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping >>your socks >> >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> >> Okra >> >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by >>the Egyptians >> >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the >>central lands >> >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and >>ultimately to the >> >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no >>time at all it >> >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried >>okra, of course, >> >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern >>climes, but >> >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed >>alone or with >> >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this >>recipe to be >> >> >> at its best. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as >>"silky," a >> >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, >>especially >> >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. >But I refuse >> >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes >>like this: When >> >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > >> >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi >>McCulloch found the >> >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression >>was: "I ate >> >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes >>out slimy for >> >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I >>nearly slid >> >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" >>by Frank X. >> >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the >>august Atlantic >> >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers >>wrote. "But in >> >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the >>Atlantic Monthly >> >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind >>if I print >> >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> > > >> >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid >>by...He keeps >> >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: >>Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> >> Newsgroups: >>alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to >>have eaten so >> >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> >> keep us from sliding out." > > >> >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > > >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been >>familiar with it a >> >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a >>finicky eater. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the >>fantods. Do >> >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Comments >> >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate >>so much as a >> >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have >>had is just >> >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> >----- >> >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 14:43:47 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:43:47 +0000 Subject: "Yoot" resurfaces In-Reply-To: <965879.75992.qm@web53904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The origin would seem to be simply a patronizing mimickry of working-class American pronunciation of word-final theta--or am I missing something here? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:32:35 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] "Yoot" resurfaces Wentworth & Flexner's _DAS_ from 1960 includes a citation of _yoot_ from the _N.Y. World-Telegram and Sun_ of Aug. 16, 1957 (no page number given): "Cop Shot: 3 Yoots* Held...(*Yoot: a young punk; a juvenile no-goodnik)." This p.m. Fox News alluded to "yoots," explaining that it meant "angry youths." By way of further explanation, "Yoots hate the Establishment." A protest demonstration at the meeting of the World Bank and International Money Fund was the context. A Fox reporter was surrounded by "yoots" who stole his camera. The film, _My Cousin Vinny_ (1992) was cited as the inspiration. Cinephiles will recall the word's appearance there. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 15:15:17 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:15:17 +0000 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife Message-ID: "Awkward" is no more than a wastebasket category for 'I don't like it'--in this case because the possessive marker is farther away from the phrase's head than LU finds aesthetically pleasing. Shock one ah songoo, as they say in French class. MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." But I would never patronize LU by accusing him of advocating prolix and inelegant syntax. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Oct 21 16:13:04 2007 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:13:04 -0500 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <20071017081832.IDB02140@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know of a chemist whose WWII discharge papers identified him as a "LAV" assistant! Barbara Barbara Need UChicago At 08:18 -0400 17/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, >but confusion did occur. > >--Charlie >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >>From: Wilson Gray >> >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >>> >>> --Charlie >>> _____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> ---- Original message ---- >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >>> >From: Wilson Gray >>> > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >>> > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >>> > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses >>>the singular like a non-count noun. >>> > >>> >-Wilson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 21 17:48:04 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:48:04 -0700 Subject: Eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <464F5422.3000000@rcn.com> Message-ID: On May 19, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Phil Cleary wrote: > BBC America's print and online catalogues contain the following blurb > for the Guinness Toucan T-shirt: "Dublin's most famous brewery has > been > slacking thirsts for more than 175 years...." now on the ecdb: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/989/slack/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 21 19:29:52 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:29:52 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) Message-ID: The most useful cite in the ADS database is still Barry's find of an interview with a police officer in the 14 September 1888 _Morning Oregonian_ which perhaps, if correct, shows the term came from the greeting used by tramps--"hobo" to identify themselves to each other. Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be more recognized at the time by Western citizens. "Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 "Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. Sam Clements **Also, there are other book cites by searching for "hobo+ tramp" "1850-1889. Some may even be legitimate antedates. But I don't have the patience of Stephen. If I can see the full view, then I take it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 20:02:48 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: >From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which I hear quite > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly heard 'schmuck' > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much American cultural > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und > Schmuck"! m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:03:52 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <200710211613.l9LAmxfj024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's probably lucky that I let well-enough alone. I told the Army that I had been a laboratory assistant as a civilian. After I described what I had done, my civvy job was determined to be "water-tender." (I was a laboratory assistant in a steam-electric generating plant.) -Wilson On 10/21/07, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: Say what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I know of a chemist whose WWII discharge papers identified him as a > "LAV" assistant! > > Barbara > > Barbara Need > UChicago > > At 08:18 -0400 17/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully > >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms > >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, > >but confusion did occur. > > > >--Charlie > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > >---- Original message ---- > >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 > >>From: Wilson Gray > >> > >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain > >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) > >> > >>-Wilson > >> > >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >>> > >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? > >>> > >>> --Charlie > >>> _____________________________________________________________ > >>> > >>> ---- Original message ---- > >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 > >>> >From: Wilson Gray > >>> > > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > >>> > > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > >>> > > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have > >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, > >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses > >>>the singular like a non-count noun. > >>> > > >>> >-Wilson > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 21 21:07:52 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:07:52 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) In-Reply-To: <000601c81418$c1453cd0$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. > >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 > >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." > >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. Google Books is full of these pitfalls. In the current case, maybe two or more books have been combined. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:29:30 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:29:30 -0400 Subject: "Tavern" sandwiches, revisited (Iowa? Baltimore?) Message-ID: DARE and OED are possibly interested in "tavern" sandwiches. NewspaperArchive has been adding much material from Iowa, so it's worth another look. My previous post is attached below. ... Te problem is that thousands of establishments in America were called "taverns" in the 1940s and 1950s. Are we talking about Iowa's Ye Olde Tavern, Baltimore's Little Taverns, or the White Tavern restaurant chain? ... Of interest also are the terms "ratburger" and an "deathball" (not in HDAS) associated with the Little Tavern chain...Anyone interested in "White Tassel" hamburger cites? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Tavern Little Tavern Shops is a chain of hamburger restaurants in Baltimore, Maryland, and Washington, D.C. As of January 2007, three restaurants remain in the chain (including one in Laurel, that is currently closed for renovations), though it was much more numerous once: in 1939, there were 21 in Washington, D.C., and 50 in the Baltimore-Washington area. The slogan of the chain was "Buy 'em by the bag," and its signs promised "Cold drinks * Good Coffee." The stores were quite small and could accommodate only a few seated customers, while most business was take-out. The chain was founded in 1927 in Louisville, Kentucky, by Harry F. Duncan, who soon relocated to Washington, D.C., in 1928, where he opened a Little Tavern Shop in 814 E Street NW. The standard "Tudor cottage" restaurant design used by the chain was designed by engineer Charles E. Brooks and architect George E. Stone of Baltimore's Stonebrook Corporation. 17 November 1940, Charleston (WV) Gazette, pg. 8, col. 6 ad: Five Hamburger for 10c at The White Tavern 7 June 1951, Milford (Iowa) Mail, pg. 6, col. 1 ad: LAKELAND DRIVE IN (..) NEW AT THE KNOB HILL SNACK BAR Featuring Tavern Sandwiches We Sell 'em Exclusively 21 January 1954, Petersburg (VA) Progress-Index, pg. 14, cols. 5-6: Serve the hamburger patties with a flavorful butter mixture, or don't shape the patties and serve the browned hamburger meat in a thick barbecue sauce to be ladled over the toasted buns. These are known as "Tavern Burgers" in some areas of the country and are a special favorite of the teen-age crowd. 2 July 1984, Syracuse (NY) Herald-Journal, "The Butcher" by Merle Ellis," pg. D2, col. 1: Tavern burgers a timeless summer treat for children (...) Taverns originated (al east in my world) at Ye Olde Tavern, a little restaurant on 14th and Jackson in Sioux City, Iowa, where they were the house special and were devoured by hordes of hungry high school kids from Central. I went to "East High" on the other side of town, so we learned to make our own. ... They're so easy to make the kids can do it themselves in less time than it takes to make a trip to McDonald's. And, I guarantee every kid from 5 to 50 will love 'em! ... TAVERNS 2 pounds ground beef 1 cup water 3/4 cup catsup 3 tablespoons prepared mustard 1/2 teaspoon chili powder to taste 1 onion minced Salt and pepper to taste Bring the water to a boil in a good-sized pan. Crumble the ground beef and add it to the water, along with the rest of the ingredients. Bring the mixture back to a boil for a minute or two, stirring to mix well and break up any lumps of meat. Reduce heat, cover and simmer 20 minutes. 26 March 1986, The Capital (Annapolis, MD), "A hamburger's place in history" by Eric Smith, pg. 35, col. 1: In Baltimore they are known affectionately as "deathballs." In Washington they're called "ratburgers" -- also affectionately. And in the days when Annapolis boasted a pair of Little Taverns on Main Street and West Street, many people here passionately believed that they served the tastiest hamburgers in the entire world. (...) "Oh, yes. And it's been that way ever since Mr. Harry Duncan started Little Taverns back in 1927. Even the square buns are made especially for us by Wonder Bread from our own dough recipe." 6 August 2001, The Capital (Annapolis, MD), "Little burgers bring a blast from the past" by Eric Smith, pg. B1, col. 2: Not just any hamburgers, but the kind we used to call "ratburgers" and "deathballs" when I was a kid. They are small, cheap, laced with chopped onions and posses an addictive quality that causes people my age to search for them like the Holy Grail. (...) (Col. 3) Little Taverns were the premier purveyors of tiny, tasty hamburgers in the Washington-Baltimore area, and sure enough, readers wrote in to Mrs. Jaques to tell her that Little Taverns had not completely disappeared, that some had been spotted as far away as East Baltimore and Laurel. (Trademark) Word Mark LITTLE TAVERN SHOPS Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: SANDWICHES. FIRST USE: 19281101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19281101 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71586924 Filing Date October 27, 1949 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0549509 Registration Date October 16, 1951 Owner (REGISTRANT) LITTLE TAVERN SHOPS, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 5100 GEORGIA AVENUE, N.W. WASHINGTON D.C. (LAST LISTED OWNER) AL & PAUL FOOD VENTURE, LLC LTD LIAB CO BY ASSIGNMENT MARYLAND PO BOX 908 ABINGDON MARYLAND 21009 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Prior Registrations 0256754 Disclaimer THE WORD "SHOPS" IS DISCLAIMED APART FROM THE MARK SHOWN IN THE DRAWING. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20020126. Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20020126 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ... ... ... (ADS-L POST, 14 August 2003) http://www.greece.k12.ny.us/taylor/topics/localwords.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: [log in to unmask] (Mary Johnson): Hi, what a great idea for a project. I just have a couple different words to add to your list. I teach in an elementary school in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I grew up on a farm in South Dakota. Here is our version of some of your examples. We eat subs and drink pop, a milkshake has ice cream in it and we put our groceries in a paper bag or sack. Here are a couple new ones for you. The area where I grew up called a loose-meat sandwich with tomato sauce, ketchup, etc. on a bun, a "tavern". This sandwich is also known as a "Sloppy Joe", a "BBQ" in Sioux Falls, and a "Made Right" in parts of Iowa. Growing up on a farm, the meals of the day were called Breakfast, Dinner(noon), Supper(evening), and Lunch was an afternoon snack. Whereas most people call the noon meal Lunch. 27 July 1951, LEMARS SEMI WEEKLY SENTINEL (Le Mars, Iowa), pg. 1, col. 3: When asked about student preferences, Miss Watson replied "I think they prefer loose meat sandwiches, such as taverns." 20 August 1953, LEMARS GLOBE-POST (Le Mars, Iowa), pg. 8?, col. 3: (HAM SANDWICHES---TAVERNS--- ICE CREAM--CAKE--COFFEE) 19 August 1954, LEMARS GLOBE-POST (Le Mars, Iowa), pg.1, col 7: Serving ham sandwiches, taverns, hot dogs, ice cream, cake and coffee. 2 September 1954, HAWARDEN INDEPENDENT (Hawarden, Iowa), pg. 2?, col. 1: Baked Ham Sandwiches, Taverns, Hot Dogs, Home Made Pies and Coffee will be served. 15 July 1957, HARLAN NEWS ADVERTISER (Harlan, Iowa), pg.1, col. 4: The menu calls for loose meat sandwiches, hot dogs, potato chips, soft drinks, ice cream and milk, Wigness said. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:35:20 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:35:20 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <200710212003.l9LB0cW4010397@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means "penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or "compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or manliness or something along those lines. I used to vaguely wonder whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a Schmueckerei. -Wilson On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" > (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): > > 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into > > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which I hear quite > > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east > > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly heard 'schmuck' > > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much American cultural > > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means > > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not > > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und > > Schmuck"! > > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Sun Oct 21 21:45:07 2007 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:45:07 -0500 Subject: "Tavern" sandwiches, revisited (Iowa? Baltimore?) In-Reply-To: <200710212129.l9LAmx0P024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The only time I heard "tavern" used in the sense of a sandwich was from a Nebraskan. She also insisted that in the winter time you scoop snow off your sidewalk. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 22 00:18:35 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:18:35 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710211435oe955d53g1a6290ad76ac089a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the German/Yiddish case. LH >I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson > >On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" >> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >> >> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into >> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>I hear quite >> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east >> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>heard 'schmuck' >> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>American cultural >> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means >> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und >> > Schmuck"! >> >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 22 00:28:33 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:28:33 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) In-Reply-To: <20071021210751.XAXZ24626.mta15.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:07:52PM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but > >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be > >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. > > > >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic > >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From > >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 > > > >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, > >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have > >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it > >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. > >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? > >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times > >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." > > > >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. > > Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: > page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. Yes, this is a government document on Utah bound together with a book on Mormons. This sort of thing is particularly dangerous, because if you just skip back to the start of the entire text, you'll see the actual title page of the 1886 volume. And while we're at it, the author is "A Gentile", not "A. Gentile" :-) Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Oct 22 00:45:09 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:45:09 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) Message-ID: Many thanks to Doug and Jessie for correcting my exuberance. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) > On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:07:52PM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but >> >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be >> >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. >> > >> >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic >> >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From >> >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 >> > >> >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, >> >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have >> >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it >> >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. >> >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? >> >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times >> >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." >> > >> >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. >> >> Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: >> page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. > > Yes, this is a government document on Utah bound together with > a book on Mormons. This sort of thing is particularly > dangerous, because if you just skip back to the start of the > entire text, you'll see the actual title page of the 1886 > volume. > > And while we're at it, the author is "A Gentile", not > "A. Gentile" :-) > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 22 01:08:27 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:08:27 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Sun 10/21/2007 7:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the German/Yiddish case. LH >I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson > >On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" >> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >> >> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into >> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>I hear quite >> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east >> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>heard 'schmuck' >> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>American cultural >> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means >> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und >> > Schmuck"! >> >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 22 01:18:07 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:18:07 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >>colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >>"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >>trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >>the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >>"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >>manliness or something along those lines. > >I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" >metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the >German/Yiddish case. I guess there is some question about the origin of "schmuck". I've seen the Yiddish word written "shmok" etc. which comports fairly well with the pronunciation /SmVk/ in English, not so well with German "Schmuck" /SmUk/ or so (we have "schnook" in English, why not "schmook" if it's German "Schmuck"?). Of course I don't know bobkes from Yiddish or any other language, but just maybe the general German slang "Schmuck" was from Yiddish rather than vice versa ... and assimilated to "Schmuck" = "ornament". I see Croatian "s^mokljan" (s^ = s-with-hacek) = "blockhead" etc., possibly from the Yiddish, or from some Slavic origin .... One candidate etymon of Yiddish "shmok" = "penis" is old Polish "smok" = "dragon"/"snake" (in MW3). Currently I see Polish "smok" = "dragon". Also Byelorussian "tsmok". These would be expected to be /SmOk/ or so in German/Yiddish, I think? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 22 01:24:41 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:24:41 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IIRC, Lenny Bruce was once arrested in New York by a Yiddish speaking cop for using "schmuck" on the stage. In his defense Bruce called on his grandmother as an expert witness on Yiddish, Her testimony was that schmuck was a male decoration similar to a lapel pin Laurence Horn wrote: > At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >> colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >> "penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >> trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >> the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >> "compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >> manliness or something along those lines. > > I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" > metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the > German/Yiddish case. > > LH > >> I used to vaguely wonder >> whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >> Schmueckerei. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word >>> "kvetch" >>> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >>> >>> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way >>> into >>> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>> I hear quite >>> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially >>> the east >>> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>> heard 'schmuck' >>> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>> American cultural >>> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German >>> means >>> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >>> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying >>> "Juwelier und >>> > Schmuck"! >>> >>> >>> m a m >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > -- HONK IF YOU LOVE PEACE AND QUIET ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Oct 22 02:04:09 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:04:09 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: For usage, Leo Rosen in The Joys of Yiddish relates an anecdote about an old man who had retired to Florida and bought a camel which he rode around. One day, a friend asked him if his camel were male or female. He thought a bit and replied that it must be male, as when he rode it around he would hear people tell their friends, "Look at the schmuck on that camel." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:34:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:34:34 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich Message-ID: HOBO: Whew! That was close! Thought I'd lost another one! ... ... ... TAVERN SANDWICH: (Probably similar to the long article I'd posted previously by the same author -- B.P.) Tavern sandwich deserves its fame (December 1, 1993) San Antonio Express-News Page 3C (411 Words) Merle Ellis, The Butcher Every town in America has some claim to fame. The city I grew up in, Sioux City, Iowa, has several special claims to fame. It may, for example, qualify as the popcorn capital of the world because Jolly Time popcorn comes from there. Another claim to fame Sioux City has earned but not proclaimed nationally is as the originating place of the tavern. Not the saloon, bar or watering hole that you normally associate with the word, but rather the sandwich... ... ... Sex-Crime Panic: A Journey to the Paranoid Heart of the 1950s by Neil Miller Los Angeles, CA: Alyson Publishing 2002 Pg. 49: In one of the trial's lighter moments, Tacy questioned the police lieutenant about an interest his wife had in a Sioux City establishment, Ye Old (sic) Tavern. "Does your wife have a license to sell beer?" Tacy demanded. "We sell root beer," aid Dennison. "But it is called a tavern, isn't it?" Tacy persisted. "That's because we sell tavern sandwiches," replied the policeman. (A "tavern sandwich" is Iowa lingo for a loose-meat sandwich, a sloppy joe.) ... ... 1 December 1944, Rock Valley (Iowa) Bee, pg. 8, col. 3: There will be hot vegetable soup, tavern sandwiches and pie for lunch. ... 29 November 1951, Hawarden (Iowa) Independent, pg. 27, col. 7: Have a tavern sandwich at the city hall Saturday, Dec. 1, at the Catholic Ladies bake sale and bazaar. ... 16 August 1964, Sioux City (Iowa) Sunday Journal, pg. H10, col. 6 ad: Ye Olde Tavern Inn Home of the original Ye Olde Tavern Sandwiches 14th and Jackson Sts. "Sioux City's Oldest Privately Owned Restaurant" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Oct 22 03:44:00 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:44:00 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Popik" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich > HOBO: > Whew! That was close! Thought I'd lost another one! Actually, you did. Stephen antedated it by two days. But your cite was still the potentially most useful. Stephen Goranson= http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709C&L=ADS-L&P=R5587&I=-3 BP= http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0606D&L=ADS-L&P=R10273&I=-3&m=43412 Sam ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:50:22 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:50:22 EDT Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this could be considered an actual eggcorn: << SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came across one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: "Residential hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. Garages, basements, addicts." --Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll >> Rosemarie No husband has ever been shot while washing the dishes. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:56:47 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:56:47 -0700 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <20071020224119.pmqbye4dw80w044g@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jalapeño peppers and pineapple pizza is pure California and the pizza of choice for the Indus peninsula vegetarians in Silicon Valley. The company I worked for had a gathering at my place and the Round Table pizza folks called back to make sure I had =really= ordered eight extra-large jalapeño pepper and pineapple pizzas. On 10/20/07, William Salmon wrote: > ..Ranch dressing > > on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? > > I thought ranch on pizza was a California thing. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Mon Oct 22 04:45:13 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:45:13 -0500 Subject: Vatican 2.2? Wichita Catholic School goes English-only Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Vatican 2.2? Wichita Catholic School goes English-only A Wichita Catholic school is now requiring its students to speak only English in school. In September, officials at St. Anne School sent home a letter notifying parents of the new policy, enacted to punish four students for allegedly using Spanish to bully other children and make fun of teachers and administrators. There are 75 Hispanic and 27 Asian children in the 243-student school, which runs from pre-kindergarten to eighth grade and has no foreign-language classes. Bullying and disrespectful behavior were already prohibited by the school handbook, but the school’s letter failed to explain why that policy was insufficient to deal with the recent incidents. Nor did it specify why the school’s 71 remaining Spanish speakers, along with its Vietnamese- and Chinese-speaking students, were also being punished by having their languages banned from the hallways. And it failed to indicate whether students who bully others or disrespect their teachers in English will be forced to stop speaking altogether. . . . To find out more, read the rest on the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 06:37:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:37:00 -0400 Subject: "Fried Pickle" ("Frickle") Mystery (Mississippi?) Message-ID: I just made two entries for "fried pickles" and "frickles," a very popular Southern dish. ... The Wikipedia "fried pickle" entry is extremely short and clearly wrong. The "Cock of the Walk" restaurant began in 1977, and I've found "french fried pickle slices" in 1962. That restaurant could not possibly have invented the dish. I would correct the Wikipedia, but I'm not allowed to cite my work. ... It's also frequently claimed (by food writer John T. Edge and others) that "fried pickles" originated at the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Mississippi in 1969, but again, this appears doubtful. ... O.T.: My pregnant wife loves pickles. Fortunately, I'll easily make ten cents from this post, and it'll pay all of our medical bills. ... ... ... FRICKLES: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/frickles_fried_pickles/ ... ... FRIED PICKLES: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/fried_pickles_fried_dill_pickles_french_fried_pickle_slices/ ... Entry from October 22, 2007 Fried Pickles (Fried Dill Pickles; French Fried Pickle Slices) Fried pickles are served throughout the South (and, now, in many northern cities as well). The exact origin of "fried pickles," however, is unknown. It is claimed in the Wikipedia (below) that the Cock of the Walk restaurant first created this dish, but that restaurant opened in April 1977—clearly too late to have invented the dish. It is often claimed that the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, MS invented fried pickles in 1969, but "french fried pickle slices" is cited in print in 1962. "Fried pickles" are often called "frickles." Ranch dressing often is served with fried pickles. Wikipedia: Fried pickle A fried pickle is a snack item found commonly in the American South. It is made by deep-frying a sliced battered dill pickle. A restaurant by the name of Cock of the Walk is credited with this creation. This once small shack located on the Mississippi River is now a large chain also known for their fried catfish. Roadfood Forums - Fried Pickles Posted - 11/27/2005 : 21:08:07 Dearfolk, As has been noted elsewhere, fried dill pickles began as a last-ditch effort by a chef to put out food - ANY food - to feed anxious customers at The Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Mississippi. From that fated moment, their popularity has spread considerably. One Athens establishment, The Blind Pig, always has them available. In fact, now I'll have to wander down there and have some in a few minutes, along with my first taste of their Brunswick stew. My favorite eatery/drinkery, Copper Creek Brewing Co., offers fried pickles from time to time. The chef fried some up one night out of pure boredom; several customers (the regulars first, then others who noted the oddity and HAD to try some) ordered up some until the place ran plumb out of pickles. Both of these examples use the standard Delta version: sliced pickles cut on the bias and breaded and fried. One nearby restaurant, The Berryman House in Bowman, Georgia, serves fried pickle spears. The people there were indeed amazed when I ordered up some with my breakfast! Now I can't help but wonder what fried sweet pickle slices would taste like.... Cucumbersomely, Ort. Carlton in Chilly Athens, Georgia. (...) Posted - 11/28/2005 : 00:26:59 it is a southern thing, hell we have deep fried versions of just about everything down here. (Twinkies, snickers, ice cream) They are good at Cock of the Walk in Maumelle, AR along with the catfish. Just stay away from the chicken there it tends to be very dry and tough. But they do have great fish, fried pickles, and tossed cornbread (they literally throw it up in the air right in front of you and catch it in a cast iron skillet at your table. Cock of the Walk Restaurant The first Cock of the Walk opened in April, 1977, on the bank of the ole "Mighty Muddy" Mississippi River in Natchez, Mississippi. The founders were Sallie and Basil Ballard, Weeta and Forrest Colebank, and Ann and George Eyrich. 19 November 1962, Oakland (CA) Tribune, "Peter Piper Pick a Peck...,"pg. 23, cols. 3-4: POPULAR PICKLES again show their versatility in this French Fried Pickle recipe prepared specially for the 1962 Newspaper Food Editors Conference in New York. A happy addition to the appetizer tray or used as a side dish with meats for dinner or a snack with juice, soft drinks in the evening, these delightful little treats are easy to prepare and delicious to eat. FRENCH FRIED PICKLE SLICES One cup sweet cucumber pickle slices One cup unsifted pancake mix Two eggs Two-thirds cup milk Oil for frying Drain pickle slices on paper towels, turn once to dry both sides of pickle well. Combine eggs and milk; add gradually to pancake mix, stirring during addition and until mixture is smooth. Heat oil in electric fry pan with temperature control set at 375 degrees F., or in skillet on medium fire. Dip drained pickle slices, one at a time into batter covering pickle slice entirely. Fry in hot fat until golden brown and turn, about one minute. Drain slices on paper towel and serve at once while hot. Makes 36 to 40 French Fried Pickle slices. Use any of the pickle slices...sweet, candied, sweet pickle chips, etc. 12 December 1969, Burlington (NC) Daily Times-News, "Pickles Help To Make Any Meal Complete" Miss York Kiker (Department of Agriculture - Marketing Home Economist), by pg. 13A, cols. 3-4: French Fried Pickles Slices 1 cup sweet cucumber pickle slices 1 cup unsifted pancake mix 2 eggs 2-3 cup milk Oil for frying Drain pickle slices on paper towels, turn once to dry both sides of pickle well. Combine eggs and milk; add gradually to pancake mix, stirring during addition and until mixture is smooth. Heat oil in electric fry pan with temperature control set at 375 degree F. or in skillet on medium fire. Dip drained pickle slices, one at a time, into batter covering pickle slices entirely. Fry in hot fat until a golden brown and turn about minute. Drain slices on paper towel and serve at once while hot. Yield: 36 to 40 French Fried Pickle slices. Use any of the pickle slices...sweet, dill, super sweet, pickle chips, etc. (This article was also printed in December 4, 1969, Lumberton, NC Robesonian, pg. 9, cols. 5-8—ed.) 10 September 1976, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. A3, col. 1: This year's fair menu offers everything imaginable, from tacos to spud dogs, hoagies to home made bread, french dip sandwiches to fried dill pickles and home made candy to corn on the cob. (Eastern Idaho State Fair in Blackfoot—ed.) 15 September 1976, Walla Walla (WA) Union-Bulletin, "If pickles are your dish, then try them in a hot one," pg. 15, col. 2: Fried pickles 1/2 cup flour 1 teaspoon sugar 1/4 teaspoon salt 1 egg 1/4 cup water several dill pickles, sliced Dip the 1/4-inch thick pickle slices in a batter made from the other ingredients. Fry the coated slices in hot oil until they are golden brown. Serve them with a sauce made of slightly more than 1/4 cup ketchup and slightly less than 1/4 cup mayonnaise. 2 June 1977, Lima (OH) News, pg. D1, col. 5: By the end of 1973 she decided to combine the two approaches into her newsletter—a different kind of periodical for women. it contained chatty little items about keeping house and raising a family, recipes for unusual dishes like fried pickles and salad soup, and a hefty dose of jokes and humorous narratives. (Gloria Pitzer's National Homemaker's Newsletter—ed.) 4 September 1977, Idaho State Journal (Pocatello, ID), pg. D1, col. 2: "Tiger Ears" (a pressed dough cake with cinnamon and sugar) was the most popular food at the '76 fair—but this year it may be French Fried Dill Pickles, the manager predicted. "Hot dill pickles with crisp batter coating—they are really good!" (Eastern Idaho State Fair—ed.) 13 November 1977, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 2F, col. 4: FRENCH FRIED DILL PICKLES Fredda Cook Snyder 2 large dill pickles, sliced 1 egg 1 cup pancake batter 1/2 cup milk Mix pancake batter with milk and egg. Dip sliced pickles in flour then in batter. Deep fry until golden. 13 January 1981, North Hills News Record (Warrendale, PA), pg. 9, col. 3 ad: Deep Fried Dill Pickles (Franklin Inn at Franklin Park—ed.) 26 August 1982, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, "Southern-fried dill pickles?", section 5, pg. 5, col. 1: MEMPHIS, Tenn. (UPI)—The South has given the world its own special version of deep-fried chicken and catfish, so why shouldn't there be a spot on the menu for fried dill pickles? That's the feeling of Chad Selden of Hollywood, Miss., who claims at least partial credit for bringing fried pickles into vogue. Selden's brother, Tate, used to manage The Hollywood,a cafe in their hometown where fried dill pickles were a favorite item. The cafe is now owned by Bob Hall, who showed how to make fried dill pickles during a demonstration at the Mid-South Folklife Festival in Memphis. "There are a couple of different recipes, real hot and kind of mild," Selden said in an interview. "The basic thing is to start with a beer batter." (...) Add spices—garlic salt, paprika, red pepper, black pepper and "anything you got around the kitchen" to all-purpose flour. Stir in a little beer. Set the batter aside to thicken enough to cling to a dill pickle chip. "It's best to let it age an hour at least, maybe longer, to get all of the spices to exude all their goodies," Selden said. Slice dill pickles crosswise about one-eighth to one-quarter-inch thick. Dip in batter and fry until crisp in deep fat preheated to 350 to 375 degrees. Serve hot. 26 October 1983, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, Food, pg. 7, col. 4: French Fried Pickles 1 qt. dill pickles, thinly sliced 1 3/4 c. flour (divided) 2 tsp. red pepper 2 tsp. paprika 2 tsp. black pepper 2 tsp garlic salt 1 tsp, salt 3 dashes hot sauce 1 c. beer vegetable oil Dip pickles in 1 cup flour, set aside. Combine 3/4 cup flour and all dry ingredients. Add hot sauce and beer, mixing well. Dip pickles into batter. Deep fry in hot oil until pickles float to top and are golden brown. Drain and serve. Makes 2 1/2 dozen. Linda Laidley, 1511 Birchwood, Roslyn. 2 July 1984, Syracuse (NY) Herald-Journal, "The Butcher" by Merle Ellis," pg. D2, cols. 3-4: Tavern burgers a timeless summer treat for children (...) Taverns originated (al east in my world) at Ye Olde Tavern, a little restaurant on 14th and Jackson in Sioux City, Iowa, where they were the house special and were devoured by hordes of hungry high FRIED DILL PICKLES 1 egg, beaten 8 ounces milk 1 tablespoon Lea & Perrin Sauce or 6 drops Tabasco 1 tablespoon flour Salt and pepper 2 cups flour Sliced dill pickles Oil for deep frying Mix beaten egg with milk, sauces and 1 tablespoon flour. Add salt and pepper to taste. Mix 2 cups flour with salt and pepper to taste in a separate bowl. Dip pickles in egg mixture then into flour, then into egg and back into flour. Fry in 350-degree deep fat until golden brown. 30 October 1985, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, "Fried dill pickles are a regional specialty" by Cecily Brownstone (Associated Press), pg. 9, cols. 1-3: DEAR CECILY: I've heard that fried pickles, served with catfish, are a specialty of the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Miss. (...)—CURIOUS. DEAR CURIOUS: Because I had never heard of fried dill pickles I asked an acquaintance of mine who is particularly interested in regional Southern dishes to research the subject. She reports that according to the Center for Southern Folklore in Memphis, Tenn., fried dill pickles are indeed served at Mississippi's Hollywood Cafe. In fact, they originated there. Here is the recipe she ferreted out.—C. B. FRIED DILL PICKLES 2 large egg yolks 1 cup water 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 32-ounce jar dill pickles, well drained Oil for frying Beat together egg yolks and water until blended. Gradually beat in flour, keeping the batter smooth, but not over-beating. Trim ends from pickles. Slice 1/4-inch thick. Dry well on paper towels. Heat oil for shallow frying to 375 degrees. Dip pickle slices into batter and fry, without crowding, in the hot oil until slightly browned. Remove and drain on paper towels. Serve at once. (More on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 22 07:28:30 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:28:30 -0400 Subject: various book scanning projects In-Reply-To: <0b3001c8144f$d788ae50$6401a8c0@hausemobile> Message-ID: The NY Times reports on a variety of book-scanning projects: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22library.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 22 07:49:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:49:45 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy Message-ID: In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake that wasn't edited. The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an effect. FWIW. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguage.wordpress.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 22 11:22:34 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:22:34 -0400 Subject: slight antedating of hobo (April 19, 1888) Message-ID: Paper: Kansas City Star, published as The Kansas City Star; Date: 04-19-1888; Volume: 14; Issue: 184; Page: [2]; [col. 6] [America's Historical Newspapers] KANSAS NOTES ....Wichita is struggling with the problem of reducing its "hobo" surplus. "Hobo" is Wichita for tramp. Headline: East Grand Forks News; Article Type: News/Opinion Paper: Grand Forks Herald, published as The Daily Herald; Date: 07-20-1888; Volume: 14; Issue: 68; Page: [4]; [col 4} North Dakota [Am. Hist. News.] EAST GRAND FORKS NEWS ....A genuine hobo tried to run the Point on Wednesday evening. He started in by flashing his razor and cutting a young man's coat.... Later articles give the plural variously as hobos and hoboes. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 22 12:26:41 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 05:26:41 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <471C5619.9070408@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". ?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with final /i/.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 12:26:40 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:26:40 -0400 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710220749.l9LB0cqO010397@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to the OED, the verb is spelled "prophesy," which, a la Blanchette, I also pronounce [profIsai] or [prof at sai]. -Wilson On 10/22/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: prophesai for prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is > speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I > don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake > that wasn't edited. > > The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, > "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of > her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. > That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an > effect. > > FWIW. > > Benjamin Barrett > a cyberbreath for language life > livinglanguage.wordpress.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 22 13:12:46 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 06:12:46 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710221226.l9MAkdXI005630@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The only pronunciation and spelling I've ever known for the verb in question are as Arnold and Wilson say. BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an upcoming biopic. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: prophesai for prophecy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". ?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with final /i/.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 22 13:27:27 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:27:27 -0400 Subject: various book scanning projects In-Reply-To: <20071022032830.1y8cocq7ko8gsgkc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Might someone (with clout) suggest to the article's writer -- who might be interested -- that she (or the NY Times) investigate the problems with Google's scanning methods and results? I can suggest someone to be interviewed, who has designed a bibliographic data base that does not suffer from some of Google's problems. Joel At 10/22/2007 03:28 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >The NY Times reports on a variety of book-scanning projects: >http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22library.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 13:36:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:36:31 -0400 Subject: Hi! Message-ID: Hi, sugar! Would you believe that I'm about third in line for the the laundry on this floor?! It looks like I'm going to have to start climbing the mountain. An article in the Times says that an organization known as the "Boston Library Consortium," including the BPL, Yale, and a few other places refusing to deal with Google, for fear tthat Google will start making money off the copies or some such. I'm washing on the third floor. Love you, -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Oct 22 14:35:48 2007 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:35:48 -0400 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") In-Reply-To: <200710192017.l9JAlV2B032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm from the NYC area, but I don't know Mello Rolls...I always heard it as "...with a ten-foot pole". Yours, Paul Johnston On Oct 19, 2007, at 4:17 PM, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under Britain's > strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my website and also on > Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L and clearly known to OED. No > one at OED can know this?...Maybe Jessica Seinfeld (famous cookbook > author) can take credit for my food work...Gotta do some work on "wet > burritos" and "saddle-style" burritos. Any OED entry under > "saddle"?...This unpaid, unloved work never ends. > ... > Maybe some old New Yorkers here remember "mello rolls" and can help > with the below. There's surprisingly little on the web, and the term > does not appear to be trademarked..."Up your hole with a mello roll" > ("Up your nose with a rubber hose") is a shocking omission in the > otherwise brilliant Yale Book of Quotations. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/ > mello_roll_or_mell_o_roll_up_your_hole_with_a_mello_roll/ > ... > Entry from October 19, 2007 > Mello Roll or Mell-O-Roll ("Up your hole with a Mello Roll!") > Mello rolls (also sometimes spelled "mello-rolls" or "mell-o-rolls," > perhaps like "jell-o") were ice cream treats, somewhat like ice cream > cones. They were popular in the Bronx and in Brooklyn; many people > remember them served at Jones Beach in the 1940s and 1950s. > > The television show Welcome Back, Kotter (1975-1979) was based on > comedian Gabriel Kaplan's life, as expressed in his comedy album Holes > and Mello-Rolls. One joke line on the tv show—"Up your nose with a > rubber hose!"—was originally recalled by Kaplan as ""Up your hole with > a mello roll!" > > > Back in the Bronx: > Celebrating the Experience of Growing Up and Living in the Bronx > (http://www.backinthebronx.com) > Volume III, Issue IX, pg. 10: > Proverbs & Sayings > (...) > 14. Charlotte Russe...Sponge cake in a cylindrical body of cardboard > with a lot of whipped cream and as you eat it, you push it up from the > bottom. > 15. Mello Roll...Ice cream wrapped in a cylindrical shape that you > peeled off the wrapper and pushed in a special mello roll cone. > > Newsday > New Yorkers share Jones Beach memories > (...) > "I have been going to Jones Beach since 1955. I remember Field 9 and > when I hike around out there now, I find pieces of the old parking lot > coming up through the sand. They sold Mell-Rolls at the concession > there—a concession shaped like the pilot house of a ship. Mello-Rolls > were a cylindrical chunt of vanilla ice cream wrapped in paper which > would be unrolled and placed into a wafer cone." —Bill Picchioni > Rockville Centre > > Boomer Baby Memories; Food > Mello roll and Charlotte Russe > Growing up in Brooklyn there was a candy store on practically every > corner and a bakery a few blocks away. Two of my favorites were Mello > Rolls and Charlotte Russes. The challenge was to get the Mello Roll > onto the cone without it falling on the floor. It took a lot of > practice but it was worth the effort! --- Jeannie M. South Florida > (formerly Brooklyn) - 1946 > > 6 December 1970, New York (NY) Times, pg. 229 ad: > Complete Mello-Roll Machine and Hardener > > 11 January 1976, New York (NY) Times, "Comedy Disks From Carlin to > Kaplan to Klein" by Shaun Considine, pg. D17: > A blurb on the cover of Gabriel Kaplan's "Holes and Mello-Rolls" > claims that his hit TV show, "Welcome Back, Kotter," was inspired by > this album. > > Internet Movie Database > Memorable quotes for > My Favorite Year (1982) > > Sy: We're talkin' future generations here. We're discussing morals. > Alice Miller: [for Herb] You're not qualified to discuss morals, Sy. > Sy: Up your hole with a Mello Roll, Alice! You too, Herb! > > Google Books > Loving Women: a novel of the fifties > by Pete Hamill > New York, NY: Random House > 1989 > Pg. 192: > "Up your hole with a Mell-o-roll, coppers, you ain't takin' me alive!" > > 12 February 1989, New York Times, "On Language" by William Safire, > pg. SM10: > "All my age cohorts [sic—should be "all members of my age cohort"] > fondly recall the fat cylinders of ice cream called Mello-Rolls," > writes Ruth B. Roufberg of Kendall Park, N.J. "They were wrapped in > two overlapping strips of paper, which, when pulled from opposite > directions, exposed the cylinder and neatly deposited it into the > ice-cream cone." > > Funny how so many people miss Mello-Rolls. "When you licked the ice > cream," explains Patricia Maloney Bernstein of Great Neck, L.I., "the > roll shape caused it to turn round in its cone, so as the ice cream > melted it did not run down the outside of the cone, but rather melted > within the cone, running down into the hollow in the handle." > > 31 December 1989, New York Times, "Looking Back at a Disappointing > Decade" by Marcia Byalick, pg. LI14: > For me the last decade had no memories as sweet as charlotte russes or > mello rolls. > > 18 October 1992, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 7, pg. 6, col. 2: > "And Mello Rolls in a cup with sprinkles. Mello Rolls were sort of ice > cream cones, but they weren't scoops, they were more oval-shaped." > (Review of the book When You're From Brooklyn, Everything Else is > Tokyo by Larry King with Marty Appel—ed.) > > Daily (University of Washington Student Newspaper) > January 25, 1996 > Welcome Back, Kaplan > Another show, another time > Hans Ruegamer > Daily Staff > (...) > Part of the show's living legacy is the number of catch phrases it > developed. Ranging from Lawrence Jacobs' deep-voiced "Hi, there" to > Ron Palillo's high-pitched "Oooo!" > > "Most of the stuff came from my high school," Kaplan said. "The real > phrase was 'Up your hole with a Mello roll.' A Mello roll was a like > an ice cream they sold in New York and that was a standard catch > phrase on the street. If you insulted anybody, you said something like > that or something about their parents. And that became part of the > beginnings of the show and then we got away from that." > > "We had to change it of course for television - to 'Up your nose with > a rubber hose.' And then one show the censor got upset about us saying > that and he said, 'You have to say, "Up your nose with a garden > hose."' > > "I said, 'Why,' just out of curiosity, and he said, "Well, you can do > a lot of damage to someone with a rubber hose.' They had these weird > censorship things. And after the next week they said we could say > rubber hose again. But there's one show where we say 'Up your nose > with a garden hose.'" > > BronxRoots-L > From: Mike < kombucha at ticnet.com> > Subject: Re: Mello-Roll > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:05:19 -0600 > > References: <20010328203751.24626.qmail at web1301.mail.yahoo.com> > Marc et-yoozal, > > The mello-roll cone was of the "waffle" variety, and not of the > "sugar-cone" variety which was crunchy. The stem of the cone had a > flat bottom instead of a point. On the top it had a rectangular > opening about 2.5 inches by about 1.25 inches which nested the > mellow-roll. The ice cream was a cylinder a bit larger than a > flashlight battery, and it had a paper wrapper with a tab that ran > along it lenghtwise. There was an art to placing the roll in the cone, > and then pulling the paper off as the roll rotated. I remember > vanilla, but am not sure if it cam in other flavors. > > It was a favorite cuss to say > "Up your nose with a garden hose, and > up your hole with a mello-roll!" > > Food of the Eighties > Shayne Genoway - May 04, 2007 > I was trying to find information about Mello-Roll ice cream with not > too much luck. Try explaining the concept to your grandchildren and it > becomes a task in futility, and much laughter on their part. They > can't grasp the concept of ice cream that came wrapped in something > that looked like the center cardboard roll on our toilet paper, with > ice cream stuffed inside. That was the only way I could think of > explaining it to them. You then had to unravel the cone around the ice > cream which sat inside a cone that was also round so the ice cream sat > neatly into the cone. Weird, isn't it, just trying to describe it. I > remember them well because my dad had a variety store at the time, and > I remember him serving them to the kids coming into the store. He > would pull a part of the paper off, and fit the exposed part of the > ice cream into the cone. When he figured it was in tight enough, he > unrolled the rest of the paper off and handed the cone to the > customer. The Mello-Roll ice cream could be handled with his hands at > all times because it was protected by this paper. It was about the > size of the inside cardboard roll of toilet paper, and that's exactly > what it looked like standing on end inside the cone. For it's time it > was convenient for the store keeper, he didn't need to worry about a > scoop, just reach in pull one out, and unwrap it. Simple, easy, and > efficient when I think about it now. It'd sure be nice if someone came > up with a picture of one from somewhere. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 22 14:43:29 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:43:29 -0400 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <760918.76765.qm@web53908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:38 AM -0700 10/22/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The only pronunciation and spelling I've ever known for the verb in >question are as Arnold and Wilson say. > > BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an upcoming biopic. > > JL ...which actually brings up one sorta counterexample to the first observation: in "The Times They Are a-Changing", Dylan sings Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen But this is only a sorta counterexample, because it arguably involves not the verb "prophesy" but a different (albeit eggcornishly formed) verb. LH > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: prophesai for prophecy >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say >> "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". > >?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this >is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a >verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with >final /i/.) > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 22 15:42:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:42:45 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710221226.l9MAkdUj005629@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I sit corrected, thank you all. It sounded like a mangled attempt at Latin to me. AFAIK, I've never heard the noun or verb end any way except "ee". BB Wilson Gray wrote: > According to the OED, the verb is spelled "prophesy," which, a la > Blanchette, I also pronounce [profIsai] or [prof at sai]. > > -Wilson > > On 10/22/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: prophesai for prophecy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say >> "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is >> speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I >> don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake >> that wasn't edited. >> >> The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, >> "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of >> her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. >> That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an >> effect. >> >> FWIW. >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 22 16:21:42 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:21:42 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 6:38 AM -0700 10/22/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> ... BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an >> upcoming biopic. >> >> JL > > ...which actually brings up one sorta counterexample to the first > observation: in "The Times They Are a-Changing", Dylan sings > > Come writers and critics > Who prophesize with your pen > > But this is only a sorta counterexample, because it arguably involves > not the verb "prophesy" but a different (albeit eggcornishly formed) > verb.- indeed, and separately listed in the OED's draft revision of june 2007, with cites back to 1816. i don't see an eggcorn here, only an alternative verb for this meaning, one formed more or less regularly from the noun "prophecy" (though i don't know why it's not spelled "prophecize"). the verb "prophesy" is much older, and not regularly formed. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 22 17:50:33 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:50:33 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: A<12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE580F1@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: The longer article is: "Etymology of Yiddish Shmok" ("Sh" here = "s" with a hacek; -- The article reproduces all Comments on Etymology treatments of the term to date; individual authors are listed in the table of contents), Comments on Etymology, vol. 12, no. 11-12, March 1983, 73 pages. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > > The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: > > 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. > 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. > 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. > 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: > a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). > b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) > > Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. > > Gerald Cohen > > ________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 23:29:56 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:29:56 -0400 Subject: 'Islamofascism" (coined in 1990?) Message-ID: This is "Islamofascism Awareness Week," and Christopher Hitchen writes in Slate that "Islamofascism" was coined in the Independent (London) in 1990. OED agrees, and the citation is featured on a Wikipedia page. ... However, the term "Islamic fascism" was used in the 1980s, referring to the events in Iran. Shouldn't there be some note that this ("Islamic fascism") is the origin of the term ("Islamofascism")? ... ... ... (Oxford English Dictionary) Islamofascism, n. depreciative. [< ISLAMO- comb. form + FASCISM n.] The advocacy or practice of a form of Islam perceived as authoritarian, intolerant, or extremist; spec. Islamic fundamentalism regarded in this way. 1990 Independent 8 Sept. 15/8 Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say 'Islamo-fascism', is the rule rather than the exception. 2002 National Rev. (U.S.) (Nexis) 10 Apr., You cannot deny that a brand of Islam is most certainly at war with us. You can call this brand Islamofascism, radical Islam, Wahhabism, whatever you want. ... ... ... http://www.slate.com/id/2176389 fighting words: A wartime lexicon. Defending IslamofascismIt's a valid term. Here's why. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, Oct. 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM ET The attempt by David Horowitz and his allies to launch "Islamofascism Awareness Week" on American campuses has been met with a variety of responses. (...) The term Islamofascism was first used in 1990 in Britain's Independent newspaper by Scottish writer Malise Ruthven, who was writing about the way in which traditional Arab dictatorships used religious appeals in order to stay in power. I didn't know about this when I employed the term "fascism with an Islamic face" to describe the attack on civil society on Sept. 11, 2001, and to ridicule those who presented the attack as some kind of liberation theology in action. "Fascism with an Islamic face" is meant to summon a dual echo of both Alexander Dubcek and Susan Sontag (if I do say so myself), and in any case, it can't be used for everyday polemical purposes, so the question remains: Does Bin Ladenism or Salafism or whatever we agree to call it have anything in common with fascism? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism Islamofascism is a controversial neologism suggesting an association of the ideological or operational characteristics of certain modern Islamist movements with European fascist movements of the early 20th century, neofascist movements, or totalitarianism. The word is included in the New Oxford American Dictionary, defining it as "a controversial term equating some modern Islamic movements with the European fascist movements of the early twentieth century". Critics of the term argue that associating the religion of Islam with fascism is offensive and inaccurate. Origins and usage Although Islamofascism is usually a reference to Islamism rather than Islam in general, comparisons have been made between fascism and Islam, as far back as 1937, when the German Catholic emigré Edgar Alexander compared Nazism with "Mohammedanism" [citation needed], and again, in 1939, when psychologist Carl Jung said about Adolf Hitler, "he is like Mohammed. The emotion in Germany is Islamic, warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god."[1] According to Roger Scruton of the Wall Street Journal, the term was introduced by the French historian Maxime Rodinson to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978. Scruton claims that Rodinson "was a Marxist, who described as 'fascist' any movement of which he disapproved", but credits him with inventing a "convenient way of announcing that you are not against Islam but only against its perversion by the terrorists." [2]. In 1990 Malise Ruthven wrote, in The Independent: "Nevertheless there is what might be called a political problem affecting the Muslim world. In contrast to the heirs of some other non-Western traditions, including Hinduism, Shintoism and Buddhism, Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say Islamo-fascism, is the rule rather than the exception from Morocco to Pakistan." [3] Albert Scardino of the The Guardian attributes the term to an article by Muslim scholar Khalid Duran in the Washington Times, where he used it to describe the push by some Islamist clerics to "impose religious orthodoxy on the state and the citizenry".[4] The related term, Islamic fascism, was adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz[5] and Christopher Hitchens,[6] who intended it to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda, although he more often tends to use the phrases "theocratic fascism" or "fascism with an Islamic face" (a play on Susan Sontag's phrase "fascism with a human face", referring to the declaration of martial law in Poland in 1981). [7] ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) MUBARAK'S PLEA Boston Globe $2.95 - Boston Globe - NewsBank - Mar 15, 1985 They all look on in horror as The Islamic fascism spawned by The Ayatollah Khomeini takes root in Lebanon. While Mubarak was visiting Washington, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Modern Writings on Islam and Muslims in India - Page 71 by Iqtidar Husain Siddiqui - 1974 - 112 pages ... dominance of the Muslim League and then became the emotional centre of Pakistan; most of the students and the staff members supported Islamic fascism. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Human Context: Le Domaine Humain. Der Mensch und Seine Welt. Hombre Y ... - Page 31 1975 ... social control: education is reduced to conditioning, except in Islamic fascism, which elevates traditional religious teaching to a dominant position, ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Cry for My Revolution, Iran - Page 360 by Manoucher Parvin - History - 1987 - 345 pages They perceive Islamic fascism, this monstrous reality, as a nightmare that will pass, but the mullahs consider it a dream coming true that will last forever ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Sadat and After: Struggles for Egypt's Political Soul - Page 126 by Raymond William Baker - Political Science - 1990 ... to capitalize on the January disturbances to organize a revolutionary strike would probably backfire to the ultimate advantage of an Islamic fascism. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 23 01:20:58 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:20:58 -0400 Subject: an old joke In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An article in the NYTimes City section of a couple of Sundays ago gave the old joke that New York will be a fine city, if they ever get it finished, and credited it to O Henry. I had posted the origin of this joke here years ago, (under this same heading, if I recall), and wrote the editor with the full text of the first version. This letter was published this past Sunday. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/opinion/nyregionopinions/l21city.html?_r=1&oref=slogin By the way: I didn't find this quotation in The Yale Dictionary of Quotes, and I think that Fred muffed a popup when he did not include it: it's a living quotation, it's always misattributed, and the true author is known. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Tue Oct 23 04:36:19 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:36:19 -0500 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business Bans on swearing in college sports have been making headlines in the last year or two as part of a concerted effort to enforce good sportsmanship among players and fans alike, both toward the opposing team and toward the refs, but a new study coming out of the University of East Anglia’s Norwich Business School reports that, while swearing may cost you the game, on the plus side it does build team spirit. Their research further suggests that turning the air blue on a regular basis may actually be good for business. The legendary American lawyer Clarence Darrow reportedly told one interviewer, “I don’t swear just for the hell of it” (at least the Darrow character in Inherit the Wind says this). Now two business scholars, Yehuda Baruch and Stuart Jenkins, report in a recent issue of the Leadership and Organization Development Journal (vol. 28 [2007], pp. 492-507), that regular swearing at work creates a sense of community and reinforces social relationships. . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 06:23:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:23:24 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) Message-ID: Cna someone read the word after "hamburger" and before "sandwiches of all kinds" in the 1886 Washington Brewery ads in the Butte (MT) Daily Miner on NewspaperArchive? ... I thought the word was "hamburger eels," but I just can't read it. ... ... ... 2 January 1886, Butte (MT) Daily Miner, pg. 3, col. 4: WASHINGTON BREWERY, East Park, Street. H. H. HORST, Prop. Caviar, Russian Sardelles, Swiss Cheese, Limberger Cheese, Pigs Feet, Hamburger Eola. SANDWICHES OF ALL KINDS! ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Butte Daily Miner, The Hamburger Eels SANDWICHES Imported and Domestic LETSON TORCE JewelerS SILVER Sliver ware Optical eto LOWEST Fine Watch saa a Street to CITY AND COUNTY Bodies Washed Dressed and Embalmed PACIFIC BEER HALL Park Street near Montana The Celebrated St Louis Beer on A il and Foreign Beers by the or Keg Prop Lavell BUTTE Mont Idaho WINDSOR STABLES EAST Park Street SALE PEED PHAETONS AND second to none m tbc Boarded the lay cr Homes Bought ird and Second band Cash Advanced on BucKies Saturday, January 09, 1886 Butte, Montana ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Butte Daily Miner, The Hamburger Sols SANDWICHES OF SLI Imported and Domestic SAINT LOUIS BEER HALL The Finest BEER HALL in the City City and County UNDERTAKER PURE HIGHLY JOSEPH BURNETT CO BOSTON MAM For Sale by H A Butte City Montana CO DEALERS IN- Groceries Teas Provisions and LIQUORS CIGARS AND TOBACCOS East Park St Cor Arizona BUTTE CITY Mont ED WHITEHEAD West Park Street Butte City Montana Will Buy or Soil anything In the line of Furniture Stoves Mining Tools CARPENTER TOOLS ETC Wes Tuesday, June 08, 1886 Butte, Montana ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 23 06:46:34 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:46:34 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I thought the word was "hamburger eels," but I just can't read it. Reckon it's just "Hamburger eels", sure enough. Searching N'archive for <<"hamburger eels">> turns up other, more legible examples. Eels from Hamburg, or maybe eels in the Hamburg style? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.6/1086 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 7:57 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 23 07:03:45 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:03:45 EDT Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) Message-ID: Sorry about that. It's "hamburger eels." But how about these cites for early hamburger and cheeseburger sandwiches? ... ... ... 21 May 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, "Chas. Howard's Remarkable Success," pg. 2, col. 2: An adjunct to the bar is the lunch counter where at any hour steak sandwiches, genuine turtle soup, Frankfurter sausages, pork and beans, Hamburger steak, sweet breads, imported sardines, Roquefort cheese, cold roast beef, cold beef tongue, shrimp salad, lobster salad, and in fact anything hot or cold that the fancy can suggest or appetite crave can be had at a moment's notice. ... ... 17 June 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: The Magnolia Saloon and Restaurant 208 High Street. Philip Stepp, Proprietor. Has been newly remodeled and fitted up in first-class style. I have also placed in my room A New Improved Kahn & Bro. Gas Stove and Lunch Counter. Where you can now obtain at any hour all kinds of Sandwiches, Hamburger Sausage, Spring Chicken, Turtle Soup, Sardines, Cheese, Ham Boston Baked Beans, Etc., cooked to order on short notice. ... ... 10 November 1905, Marshall (MI) Expounder, pg. 6, col. 4: Before he went to bed he had three bottles of beer, several hamburger sandwiches with onions, cheese, rye bread and finished off with a particularly bad cigar. (...) --Emporia, Kan. Gazette. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gingi at POBOX.COM Tue Oct 23 12:24:17 2007 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:24:17 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and this > spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > "titbit". > > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > reason. > Anyone know why we USAians are different? -- -- Rachel Sommer As the Italian proverb says: L'aritmetica non è opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 23 11:42:40 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:42:40 -0400 Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 Message-ID: Mark Twain and others attributed the saying about three kinds of lies--lies, damned lies, and statistics--to Benjamin Disraeli; but this has not been found in any of his works; nor has it been found in any usage by anyone as early as his lifetime. And there are additional reasons to doubt that attribution and the presentation of it in Yale Book of Quotations.* In January 1892 Robert Giffen gave a lecture that was printed in June 1892 and also in 1893 in a conference proceedings published in Hobart, Tasmania (p.463 in Reports of the ... meeting, ANZAAS). Giffen said that an older saying about three types of witnesses, liars, damned (he said outrageous) liars, and experts had "lately been adapted" to throw dirt on statistics. If he was correct, and if "lately" means within the last few years, then it began after the death of Disraeli (in 1881). The "liar" saying (sometimes with slight variations, e.g. scientists instead of experts) is attested in X Club notes of Thomas Henry Huxley on Dec. 5 1885 (details in the archives) and later, e.g., in the Times, Mar. 9, 1891, p. 12. In addition to Disraeli, the phrase has been attributed to Walter Bagehot (in 1894 and often in later years; details in the archive); Leonard Courtney; Arthur Balfour; and others (and, of course, someone not well known should not be a priori excluded). E.g. one Balfour attribution appears in the Washington Post Oct. 29, 1901, p.19: London Gossip.(by Lew Rosen) ...Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics." The main new observation here is a new 1892 quote. Though not the last word on the subject, it may be a helpful step. POLITICS AND SOCIETY. The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), June 29, 1892; Issue 16920 (3945 words) Mr. Arthur Balfour is reverting to his old habits of wild and reckless assertions. Last night he made what his friends would doubtless call a stinging speech. He began by a contemptuous reference to his opponent, Professor Monro; and in dealing with the statistics of the latter had the good taste to say that there were three kinds of unveracity--namely, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Then, having got his hand in, the ex-Chief Secretary [of Ireland] began his old game of denying every accusation against his Irish administration. He denied that the freedom of the Press or the right of public meeting was interfered with under the Crimes Act of 1887!.... Balfour earlier was author of A defence of philosophic doubt; being an essay on the foundations of belief (1879), and later Prime Minister (1902-1905), and author of the Balfour Declaration (1917). He died in 1930. It might be worth searching for an earlier use of the phrase by him (or Bagehot or Courtney or another). Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *In general I think the Yale Book of Quotations is very good. Exceptions to this view include its inadequate index and cross referencing system and its analysis of this phrase. The 1895 Leonard Courtney citation is misinterpreted there (as explained in the archive; it refers to the future, i.e., to a statesman long after the death of Disraeli, etc.). I contributed that citation, unacknowledged in YBQ, unlike in Ralph Keyes, The Quote Verifier. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 12:52:39 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:52:39 -0400 Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 In-Reply-To: <20071023074240.u4nnnapr0sg44koc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Gee, Stephen, according to your review of The Yale Book of Quotations on Amazon, the main flaw of the book seems to be its failure to include the Montagnards theory of the origin of the phrase "whole nine yards." In any case, I appreciate the continued good information you are unearthing about "lies, damned lies, and statistics" and I will certainly reevaluate my discussion of the Disraeli theory in the next edition. What research method yielded the Leeds Mercury reference? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:42 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 Mark Twain and others attributed the saying about three kinds of lies--lies, damned lies, and statistics--to Benjamin Disraeli; but this has not been found in any of his works; nor has it been found in any usage by anyone as early as his lifetime. And there are additional reasons to doubt that attribution and the presentation of it in Yale Book of Quotations.* In January 1892 Robert Giffen gave a lecture that was printed in June 1892 and also in 1893 in a conference proceedings published in Hobart, Tasmania (p.463 in Reports of the ... meeting, ANZAAS). Giffen said that an older saying about three types of witnesses, liars, damned (he said outrageous) liars, and experts had "lately been adapted" to throw dirt on statistics. If he was correct, and if "lately" means within the last few years, then it began after the death of Disraeli (in 1881). The "liar" saying (sometimes with slight variations, e.g. scientists instead of experts) is attested in X Club notes of Thomas Henry Huxley on Dec. 5 1885 (details in the archives) and later, e.g., in the Times, Mar. 9, 1891, p. 12. In addition to Disraeli, the phrase has been attributed to Walter Bagehot (in 1894 and often in later years; details in the archive); Leonard Courtney; Arthur Balfour; and others (and, of course, someone not well known should not be a priori excluded). E.g. one Balfour attribution appears in the Washington Post Oct. 29, 1901, p.19: London Gossip.(by Lew Rosen) ...Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics." The main new observation here is a new 1892 quote. Though not the last word on the subject, it may be a helpful step. POLITICS AND SOCIETY. The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), June 29, 1892; Issue 16920 (3945 words) Mr. Arthur Balfour is reverting to his old habits of wild and reckless assertions. Last night he made what his friends would doubtless call a stinging speech. He began by a contemptuous reference to his opponent, Professor Monro; and in dealing with the statistics of the latter had the good taste to say that there were three kinds of unveracity--namely, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Then, having got his hand in, the ex-Chief Secretary [of Ireland] began his old game of denying every accusation against his Irish administration. He denied that the freedom of the Press or the right of public meeting was interfered with under the Crimes Act of 1887!.... Balfour earlier was author of A defence of philosophic doubt; being an essay on the foundations of belief (1879), and later Prime Minister (1902-1905), and author of the Balfour Declaration (1917). He died in 1930. It might be worth searching for an earlier use of the phrase by him (or Bagehot or Courtney or another). Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *In general I think the Yale Book of Quotations is very good. Exceptions to this view include its inadequate index and cross referencing system and its analysis of this phrase. The 1895 Leonard Courtney citation is misinterpreted there (as explained in the archive; it refers to the future, i.e., to a statesman long after the death of Disraeli, etc.). I contributed that citation, unacknowledged in YBQ, unlike in Ralph Keyes, The Quote Verifier. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Tue Oct 23 13:26:43 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:26:43 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <200710220400.l9M37YTJ024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notionally related is "Beutel" meaning "bag, purse" or "scrotum." It's significant in the 1500s "novel" Fortunatus: the protagonist is given a bottomless bag of money by a hag (I think) and that's a key plot element. ---Amy West >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:35:20 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > >>From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 13:50:43 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:50:43 -0700 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 9:36 PM, Dennis Baron wrote: > There's a new post on the > Web of Language: > > WTF? Swearing at work is good for business > > Bans on swearing in college sports have been making headlines in > the last year or two as part of a concerted effort to enforce good > sportsmanship among players and fans alike, both toward the > opposing team and toward the refs, but a new study coming out of > the University of East Anglia’s Norwich Business School reports > that, while swearing may cost you the game, on the plus side it > does build team spirit. Their research further suggests that > turning the air blue on a regular basis may actually be good for > business. see the very critical discussion of this "study" by Mark Liberman on Language Log: ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete other study: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html (with, as a bonus, a wonderful piece of science-news satire from The Onion) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 13:54:05 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:54:05 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <3c1dab590710230524i21361f35k89428afce7f81be8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain >> without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form >> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or "assimilation at a distance", which amounts here to the same result LH >, and this >> spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth >> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, >> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing >> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has >> *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone >> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used >> "titbit". >> >> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was >> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", >> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". >> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the >> reason. >> > >Anyone know why we USAians are different? > >-- >-- >Rachel Sommer >As the Italian proverb says: >L'aritmetica non è opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Tue Oct 23 14:38:09 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:38:09 -0400 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: <200710231350.l9NAl4tW015524@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The various workplaces of Tony Soprano and associates do, indeed, feature a lot of swearing -- both social and annoyance types. There's also a certain amount of resulting _social cohesion_ and _stress release_ and, to one or another degree, a sense of _group well-being__. But there have been a significant number of individuals who undoubtedly would, if they could, question the _individual well-being_ finding -- but they can't, given that they're dead. I'd imagine their response to this particular finding would be, quite simple, WTF?????? (the other) doug ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete other study: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 14:43:20 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:43:20 -0400 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: <001801c81582$55054680$04fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0400 10/23/07, Doug Harris wrote: >The various workplaces of Tony Soprano and associates do, indeed, feature >a lot of swearing -- both social and annoyance types. There's also a certain >amount of resulting _social cohesion_ and _stress release_ and, to one or >another degree, a sense of _group well-being__. But there have been a >significant number of individuals who undoubtedly would, if they could, >question the _individual well-being_ finding -- but they can't, given that >they're dead. I'd imagine their response to this particular finding would >be, quite simple, WTF?????? >(the other) doug Well, as the Onion "study" would put it, the individuals in question did have a blast. LH > > ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete >other study: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 23 15:27:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:27:20 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED suggests from tit (n3), with the connotation of "small" (and agrees hat "tid-bit" is earlier). Joel At 10/23/2007 09:54 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: >>David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >>(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): >> >>The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain >>> without access to a copy of the Oxford >>> English Dictionary, the original form >>> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >>> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >>> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover > >to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or >"assimilation at a distance", which amounts here >to the same result > >LH > >>, and this >>> spelling and pronunciation is now the most >>> common in the UK and Commonwealth >>> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an >>> alternative in use in the USA, >>> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing >>> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th >>> century. It's not that the US has >>> *preserved* the original spelling, but that >>> they have for some reason *gone >>> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used >>> "titbit". >>> >>> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was >>> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", >>> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". >>> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the >>> reason. >> >>Anyone know why we USAians are different? >> >>-- >>-- >>Rachel Sommer >>As the Italian proverb says: >>L'aritmetica non è opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 15:39:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:39:59 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <200710231354.l9NAn2kh016012@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I hold the assimilation theory to account for American "tidbit" and the dissimilation theory to account for General-English "titmouse." Unless, of course, it has something to do with Tommy Tittlemouse. -Wilson On 10/23/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: tidbit versus titbit? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: > >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic > > >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > > > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > > >> without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form > >> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > >> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > >> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover > > to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or > "assimilation at a distance", which amounts here > to the same result > > LH > > >, and this > >> spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth > >> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > >> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > >> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has > >> *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > >> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > >> "titbit". > >> > >> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > >> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > >> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > >> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > >> reason. > >> > > > >Anyone know why we USAians are different? > > > >-- > >-- > >Rachel Sommer > >As the Italian proverb says: > >L'aritmetica non è opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 23 16:12:57 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:12:57 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: Might the form "tidbit" have influenced the construction of the currently common locution "a tad bit of (something)"--which I believe we discussed several weeks or months ago? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 23 17:05:12 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:05:12 EDT Subject: Hamburger/Steakburger Sandwich, Cheeseburger Message-ID: I don't see "cheeseburger" here--and I only see "hamburger sandwich" from 1905." What is the earliest "steakburger" that you have found? The earliestr "steakburger sandwich"? In a message dated 10/23/07 3:04:19 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Sorry about that. It's "hamburger eels." But how about these cites for  > early > hamburger and cheeseburger sandwiches? > ... > ... > ... > 21 May 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, "Chas. Howard's Remarkable > Success," pg. 2, col. 2: > An adjunct to the bar is the lunch counter where at any hour steak > sandwiches, genuine turtle soup, Frankfurter sausages, pork and beans, > Hamburger > steak, sweet breads, imported sardines, Roquefort cheese, cold roast beef, > cold > beef tongue, shrimp salad, lobster salad, and in fact anything hot or cold > that > the fancy can suggest or appetite crave can be had at a moment's notice. > ... > ... > 17 June 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: > The Magnolia Saloon and Restaurant > 208 High Street. Philip Stepp, Proprietor. > Has been newly remodeled and fitted up in first-class style. I have also > placed in my room > A New Improved Kahn & Bro. Gas Stove and Lunch Counter. > Where you can now obtain at any hour all kinds of Sandwiches,  Hamburger > Sausage, Spring Chicken, Turtle Soup, Sardines, Cheese, Ham > Boston Baked Beans, Etc., cooked to order on short notice. > ... > ... > 10 November 1905, Marshall (MI) Expounder, pg. 6, col. 4: > Before he went to bed he had three bottles of beer, several hamburger > sandwiches with onions, cheese, rye bread and finished off with a > particularly  bad > cigar. (...) --Emporia, Kan. Gazette. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 20:38:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:38:24 -0400 Subject: Fry Sauce (UT) (O.T.: my website doesn't work?) Message-ID: "Fry Sauce" (a special sauce for french fries--that of course come from Paris, Texas) is an important regional cuisine (Utah) that is not in DARE. It's long been said that "fry sauce" was invented by Utah's Arctic Circle restaurants, but a recent Sept. 4, 2007 blog post claims the honor for Stan's Diner in Provo. ... My website seems to cut off over half the post. Every day, another goddamn crisis. I'm gonna clear fifteen cents on this post. ... ... ... Fry sauce (sauce for french fries) is a popular state dish or Utah, but is now served in Oregon and other Western states. A simple recipe is one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. The Arctic Circle fast food restaurant chain is said to have invented fry sauce in 1948 (according to Wikipedia). In the 1940s, the first "Arctic Circle" restaurant in Salt Lake City was called the "Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q," after founder Don Carlos Edwards. The Arctic Circle restaurant trademarked fry sauce ("a dipping sauce for french fries") from April 1956. A September 4, 2007 post (below) claims that Stan's Dine in Provo, UT first invented fry sauce, and that the Arctic Circle borrowed the recipe. Wikipedia: Fry Sauce Fry sauce is a regional condiment served with french fries. It is usually a simple combination of one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. When spices and other flavorings are added, it is similar to—but thicker and smoother than—traditional Russian dressing and Thousand Island dressing. Fry sauce is commonly found in restaurants in Utah, much of Idaho, eastern Washington and rural Oregon, but is also commonly found in supermarkets across the country, as well as available by mail-order. Occasionally other ingredients such as barbecue sauce are substituted for ketchup. The Utah-based Arctic Circle restaurant chain claims to have invented fry sauce around 1948. Arctic Circle serves it in its restaurants in the western United States. Many other fast-food restaurants and family restaurants in the region, such as Carl's Jr, Crown Burgers, Apollo Burger and Hires Big H, offer their own versions of the sauce. Until 1999, Utah franchise locations of McDonald's also carried fry sauce. The chain stopped stocking the condiment because of the high waste it produced: because of its mayonnaise content, the sauce spoils after a single day if left unrefrigerated. Nevertheless, many other national fast food restaurants in Utah and nearby states serve fry sauce. Among the most popular souvenir pins during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were ones that depicted fry sauce. Originally sold for US$7.50, these pins became valued at over $60 before the Olympic games started. Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce Arctic Circle has long been an innovator in fast foods, but our Original Fry Sauce—a tasty, tangy mixture of tomato concentrate, lemon juice, eggs, and a whole bunch of other ingredients—stands out as the most imitated, and also the least duplicated. Ever since we invented fry sauce more than 50 years ago, we've carefully guarded the original secret recipe. There is only one original fry sauce and Arctic Circle has it. But nowadays, many people are dipping their fries (and lots of other foods, for that matter) into Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce outside our restaurants. Not because one of our competitors has cracked our secret recipe, but because we now have 12-ounce bottles available for purchase in our stores. And that means you can take the Original home with you! So if you're hankering for some doggoned delicious dipping, visit your nearest Arctic Circle and take home the only fry sauce that's been featured on national television, Olympic pins, and more. Original Fry Sauce, exclusive to Arctic Circle—where the good stuff is! About.com: Salt Lake City, UT Fry Sauce >From Theresa Husarik One of Utah's Unique Culinary Treasures (...) The basic recipe 1 part ketchup 2 parts mayonnaise Mix together until thoroughly blended. Other options: Substitute barbecue sauce for ketchup. Use buttermilk or half & half to thin the sauce. Pickle juice (either dill or sweet) for a little zing (rumor has it the official recipe includes pickle juice) Chopped pickles minced very tiny, so the sauce is a little chunky (this makes the sauce look suspiciously like thousand island dressing) Seasoning salt Horseradish Garlic Whatever exotic spices you have on your shelf -- go ahead, experiment 15 November 1957, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. B11, col. 1 ad: 15th Birthday Anniversary Special at DON CARLOS BAR-BE-Q (...) Hamburgers With Fry's and Special Sauce 20 August 1959, Denton (TX) Record-Chronicle, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 1-2: A Twin Delight For Teens: French Fries 'N Pizza Sauce 16 March 1961, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 14C, col. 1 ad: FRENCH FRIES With Special Arctic Circle Sauce 10c 10 September 1961, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. 51 ad: Start with a flavorful Russian Dressing -- made with equal parts creamy Best Foods Real Mayonnaise and zesty Heinz Ketchup. 16 May 1962, Fort Pierce (FL) News Tribune, "Shrimp Appetizers With Pink Sauce, pg. 9, col. 1: PINK SAUCE 1 cup mayonnaise 1/2 cup sour cream 1/4 cup catsup 1 tablespoon lemon juice 1/8 teaspoon salt snipped fresh or frozen chive or fresh dill Combine ingredients and mix well, adding chives or fresh dill to taste. If desired, omit chives or dill and stir in 1/2 teaspoon curry powder. Chill thoroughly before serving. Makes 1 3/4 cups sauce. 7 September 1962, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 9A, col. 7 ad: FRIES With Arctic Circle Sauce...10c 15 February 1963, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 7A, col. 3: ARCTIC CIRCLE FRENCH FRIES With Sauce...10c 8 August 1964, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 10, col. 5 ad: French Fry Sauce (Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q -- ed.) Steve and Laurel Piccolo's Blog Tuesday, September 04, 2007 The Origins of Fry Sauce My friend Barry (originally from Detroit) asked me what is unique about Utah and what he should do to experience the state to its fullest. The first thought that came to mind was that he should try fry sauce, a combination of ketchup, mayonaisse and sometimes additional ingredients used as a dipping sauce for french fries. See if you can follow this. Last week I met Laurel's maternal grandmother's former husband's oldest son, Ron Taylor. (Laurel's grandmother passed away a few years ago.) He claims (and I believe him) to have invented fry sauce. How cool is that!? His father is Stan, who used to own Stan's Diner on 900 East in Provo, Utah. He said it came about as a natural evolution of combining ketchup and mayonaisse as a burger condiment, and it just grew in popularity. He said someone from Arctic Circle (a Utah-based burger chain) later asked his permission to use the recipe. Arctic Circle and other chains have popularized it across the intermountain west. Apparently controversy surrounds this topic. Arctic Circle (the former management long gone) now claims to have invented fry sauce on their Web site. It's hard to know who is the true originator. Maybe they both can claim it. I believe Ron first introduced the basic combination of ketchup and mayo and that Arctic Circle later perfected it by adding additional ingredients (which they say are part of a secret recipe). The articles listed at the bottom of this post mention some interesting tidbits. For example, the Deseret News article claims more fry sauce is now consumed in Oregon than in Utah. (So maybe Barry, who now lives near Portland, won't have to travel so far to get his fill.) If you have any additional insight, please post a comment here and let us know. I think we should spread the word and honor Ron for this invention that changed the world for the better. :) (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: FAST FOOD RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19520600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19520600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73734717 Filing Date June 16, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 15, 1988 Registration Number 1524008 Registration Date February 7, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) QUAKER STATE MINIT-LUBE, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1385 WEST 2200 SOUTH SALT LAKE CITY UTAH 84119 (LAST LISTED OWNER) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION Assignee of DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South, Ste. 200 PO Box 339 Midvale UTAH 84047 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record FREDERICK B. ZIESENHEIM Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: A dipping sauce for french fries. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78489185 Filing Date September 24, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South #200 Midvale UTAH 84047 Prior Registrations 1524008;1529011 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "original fry sauce" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date May 4, 2006 (Trademark) Word Mark ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: DIPPING SAUCE FOR FRENCH FRIES. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75492665 Filing Date May 28, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) ARCTIC CIRCLE RESTAURANTS, INC CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 WEST 7200 SOUTH, SUITE 200 PO BOX 339 MIDVALE UTAH 84047 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 19, 1999 (Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FRY SUPER SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20021023. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20021023 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76375891 Filing Date February 27, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Supplemental Register Date November 4, 2002 Registration Number 2696858 Registration Date March 11, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH 8170 South Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record JOHN C. STRINGHAM Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register SUPPLEMENTAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark HIRES BIG H FAMOUS HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20051201. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051201 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETS-1 H A single letter, multiples of a single letter or in combination with a design NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks Serial Number 78932156 Filing Date July 18, 2006 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition June 12, 2007 Registration Number 3286306 Registration Date August 28, 2007 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH Suite 210 8160 Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record John C. Stringham Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 20:59:59 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:59:59 -0400 Subject: Fry Sauce (corrected) Message-ID: Sorry about that. I see I used ' for " in the html code. ... My eyesight and typing and everything else are all shot. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/fry_sauce_french_fry_sauce_french_fries_sauce/ ... Entry from October 23, 2007 Fry Sauce (French Fry Sauce; French Fries Sauce) Fry sauce (sauce for french fries) is a popular state dish or Utah, but is now served in Oregon and other Western states. A simple recipe is one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. The Arctic Circle fast food restaurant chain is said to have invented fry sauce in 1948 (according to Wikipedia). In the 1940s, the first "Arctic Circle" restaurant in Salt Lake City was called the "Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q," after founder Don Carlos Edwards. The Arctic Circle restaurant trademarked fry sauce ("a dipping sauce for french fries") from April 1956. A September 4, 2007 post (below) claims that Stan's Diner in Provo, UT first invented fry sauce, and that the Arctic Circle borrowed the recipe. Wikipedia: Fry Sauce Fry sauce is a regional condiment served with french fries. It is usually a simple combination of one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. When spices and other flavorings are added, it is similar to—but thicker and smoother than—traditional Russian dressing and Thousand Island dressing. Fry sauce is commonly found in restaurants in Utah, much of Idaho, eastern Washington and rural Oregon, but is also commonly found in supermarkets across the country, as well as available by mail-order. Occasionally other ingredients such as barbecue sauce are substituted for ketchup. The Utah-based Arctic Circle restaurant chain claims to have invented fry sauce around 1948. Arctic Circle serves it in its restaurants in the western United States. Many other fast-food restaurants and family restaurants in the region, such as Carl's Jr, Crown Burgers, Apollo Burger and Hires Big H, offer their own versions of the sauce. Until 1999, Utah franchise locations of McDonald's also carried fry sauce. The chain stopped stocking the condiment because of the high waste it produced: because of its mayonnaise content, the sauce spoils after a single day if left unrefrigerated. Nevertheless, many other national fast food restaurants in Utah and nearby states serve fry sauce. Among the most popular souvenir pins during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were ones that depicted fry sauce. Originally sold for US$7.50, these pins became valued at over $60 before the Olympic games started. Arctic Circle History Back in 1924, an inventive and entrepreneurial young man named Don Carlos Edwards put up a tiny refreshment stand during a Pioneer Day celebration in a small Northern Utah town. Although he didn't know it then, that stand was the beginning of a fast food icon that now spans the Western United States. By 1941, Edwards' little stand in a small rural town had evolved into Don Carlos Bar-B-Q in Salt Lake City. Nine years later, he opened his second restaurant in Salt Lake, which he called Arctic Circle. This new restaurant featured numerous original family recipes that were as tasty as they were unique. Soon after the opening in 1950, long lines of people were waiting for their chance to taste standout menu items like "Brown Toppers" and "Ranch Burgers." In those early years, Edwards continued to invent new foods and options. Fry sauce and kid's meals, for example, are Arctic Circle originals. Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce Arctic Circle has long been an innovator in fast foods, but our Original Fry Sauce—a tasty, tangy mixture of tomato concentrate, lemon juice, eggs, and a whole bunch of other ingredients—stands out as the most imitated, and also the least duplicated. Ever since we invented fry sauce more than 50 years ago, we've carefully guarded the original secret recipe. There is only one original fry sauce and Arctic Circle has it. But nowadays, many people are dipping their fries (and lots of other foods, for that matter) into Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce outside our restaurants. Not because one of our competitors has cracked our secret recipe, but because we now have 12-ounce bottles available for purchase in our stores. And that means you can take the Original home with you! So if you're hankering for some doggoned delicious dipping, visit your nearest Arctic Circle and take home the only fry sauce that's been featured on national television, Olympic pins, and more. Original Fry Sauce, exclusive to Arctic Circle—where the good stuff is! About.com: Salt Lake City, UT Fry Sauce >From Theresa Husarik One of Utah's Unique Culinary Treasures (...) The basic recipe 1 part ketchup 2 parts mayonnaise Mix together until thoroughly blended. Other options: Substitute barbecue sauce for ketchup. Use buttermilk or half & half to thin the sauce. Pickle juice (either dill or sweet) for a little zing (rumor has it the official recipe includes pickle juice) Chopped pickles minced very tiny, so the sauce is a little chunky (this makes the sauce look suspiciously like thousand island dressing) Seasoning salt Horseradish Garlic Whatever exotic spices you have on your shelf—go ahead, experiment 15 November 1957, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. B11, col. 1 ad: 15th Birthday Anniversary Special at DON CARLOS BAR-BE-Q (...) Hamburgers With Fry's and Special Sauce 20 August 1959, Denton (TX) Record-Chronicle, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 1-2: A Twin Delight For Teens: French Fries 'N Pizza Sauce 16 March 1961, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 14C, col. 1 ad: FRENCH FRIES With Special Arctic Circle Sauce 10c 10 September 1961, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. 51 ad: Start with a flavorful Russian Dressing—made with equal parts creamy Best Foods Real Mayonnaise and zesty Heinz Ketchup. 16 May 1962, Fort Pierce (FL) News Tribune, "Shrimp Appetizers With Pink Sauce, pg. 9, col. 1: PINK SAUCE 1 cup mayonnaise 1/2 cup sour cream 1/4 cup catsup 1 tablespoon lemon juice 1/8 teaspoon salt snipped fresh or frozen chive or fresh dill Combine ingredients and mix well, adding chives or fresh dill to taste. If desired, omit chives or dill and stir in 1/2 teaspoon curry powder. Chill thoroughly before serving. Makes 1 3/4 cups sauce. 7 September 1962, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 9A, col. 7 ad: FRIES With Arctic Circle Sauce...10c 15 February 1963, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 7A, col. 3: ARCTIC CIRCLE FRENCH FRIES With Sauce...10c 8 August 1964, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 10, col. 5 ad: French Fry Sauce (Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q—ed.) Steve and Laurel Piccolo's Blog Tuesday, September 04, 2007 The Origins of Fry Sauce My friend Barry (originally from Detroit) asked me what is unique about Utah and what he should do to experience the state to its fullest. The first thought that came to mind was that he should try fry sauce, a combination of ketchup, mayonaisse and sometimes additional ingredients used as a dipping sauce for french fries. See if you can follow this. Last week I met Laurel's maternal grandmother's former husband's oldest son, Ron Taylor. (Laurel's grandmother passed away a few years ago.) He claims (and I believe him) to have invented fry sauce. How cool is that!? His father is Stan, who used to own Stan's Diner on 900 East in Provo, Utah. He said it came about as a natural evolution of combining ketchup and mayonaisse as a burger condiment, and it just grew in popularity. He said someone from Arctic Circle (a Utah-based burger chain) later asked his permission to use the recipe. Arctic Circle and other chains have popularized it across the intermountain west. Apparently controversy surrounds this topic. Arctic Circle (the former management long gone) now claims to have invented fry sauce on their Web site. It's hard to know who is the true originator. Maybe they both can claim it. I believe Ron first introduced the basic combination of ketchup and mayo and that Arctic Circle later perfected it by adding additional ingredients (which they say are part of a secret recipe). The articles listed at the bottom of this post mention some interesting tidbits. For example, the Deseret News article claims more fry sauce is now consumed in Oregon than in Utah. (So maybe Barry, who now lives near Portland, won't have to travel so far to get his fill.) If you have any additional insight, please post a comment here and let us know. I think we should spread the word and honor Ron for this invention that changed the world for the better. (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: FAST FOOD RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19520600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19520600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73734717 Filing Date June 16, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 15, 1988 Registration Number 1524008 Registration Date February 7, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) QUAKER STATE MINIT-LUBE, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1385 WEST 2200 SOUTH SALT LAKE CITY UTAH 84119 (LAST LISTED OWNER) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION Assignee of DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South, Ste. 200 PO Box 339 Midvale UTAH 84047 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record FREDERICK B. ZIESENHEIM Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: A dipping sauce for french fries. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78489185 Filing Date September 24, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South #200 Midvale UTAH 84047 Prior Registrations 1524008;1529011 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "original fry sauce" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date May 4, 2006 (Trademark) Word Mark ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: DIPPING SAUCE FOR FRENCH FRIES. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75492665 Filing Date May 28, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) ARCTIC CIRCLE RESTAURANTS, INC CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 WEST 7200 SOUTH, SUITE 200 PO BOX 339 MIDVALE UTAH 84047 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 19, 1999 (Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FRY SUPER SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20021023. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20021023 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76375891 Filing Date February 27, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Supplemental Register Date November 4, 2002 Registration Number 2696858 Registration Date March 11, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH 8170 South Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record JOHN C. STRINGHAM Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register SUPPLEMENTAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark HIRES BIG H FAMOUS HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20051201. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051201 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETS-1 H A single letter, multiples of a single letter or in combination with a design NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks Serial Number 78932156 Filing Date July 18, 2006 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition June 12, 2007 Registration Number 3286306 Registration Date August 28, 2007 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH Suite 210 8160 Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record John C. Stringham Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 22:19:56 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:19:56 -0700 Subject: trawf (was Re: southmore) In-Reply-To: <7F73B49C-393F-4BEA-A089-5DB70FCC7C4D@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2007, at 9:15 AM, i wrote: > i've now found a possible > intermediate stage between "soph(o)more" and "southmore", namely "soth > (o)more" (presumably with [T] rather than [f]). modest number of > hits, e.g.: > > and i've heard the Promo For Craig David's Sothomore LP, "Slicker > than your Average", and its totally Brilliant > http://macosx.com/forums/archive/t-23712.html > > Most of our family is being supportive of our homeschooling > adventure. WE also have a 19 sothmore in college. We would like to > hear from others . > http://forums.about.com/dir-app/acx/ACDispatch.aspx? > action=message&webtag=ab-homeschool&msg=11079 now a Language Log reader tells me that ... the [television] weather reporters seem to say "trawth" instead of trough ("trawf ") another [T] for standard [f]. i see that dictionary.com lists pronunciations with [T] for "trough" "sometimes". has the distribution of this pronunciation for this item been studied? has the variant been reported for any roughly similar words: tough, enough, rough, cough? [f] for [T] is, of course, a lenition/simplification. can/should [T] for [f] be seen as a kind of strengthening? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 23:29:28 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:29:28 -0400 Subject: trawf (was Re: southmore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:19 PM -0700 10/23/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Sep 20, 2007, at 9:15 AM, i wrote: > >>i've now found a possible >>intermediate stage between "soph(o)more" and "southmore", namely "soth >>(o)more" (presumably with [T] rather than [f]). modest number of >>hits, e.g.: >> >>and i've heard the Promo For Craig David's Sothomore LP, "Slicker >>than your Average", and its totally Brilliant >>http://macosx.com/forums/archive/t-23712.html >> >>Most of our family is being supportive of our homeschooling >>adventure. WE also have a 19 sothmore in college. We would like to >>hear from others . >>http://forums.about.com/dir-app/acx/ACDispatch.aspx? >>action=message&webtag=ab-homeschool&msg=11079 > >now a Language Log reader tells me that > > ... the [television] weather reporters seem to say "trawth" >instead of trough ("trawf ") > >another [T] for standard [f]. i see that dictionary.com lists >pronunciations with [T] for "trough" "sometimes". has the >distribution of this pronunciation for this item been studied? has >the variant been reported for any roughly similar words: tough, >enough, rough, cough? > >[f] for [T] is, of course, a lenition/simplification. can/should [T] >for [f] be seen as a kind of strengthening? > Maybe these speakers have heard about couples plighting their troth without knowing exactly to what this referred, and just assumed that the "troth" on the weather map is just another kind of whatever that is. (Thus representing a hypercorrection of the obviously sloppy pronunciation /trOf/ one hears all too often--and not just from those cockney-influenced weatherpeople who are always /f/ing their /T/s.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 23:52:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <1104460399-1192979739-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1844210661-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ... MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry > Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is > "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife > of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." there's a trade: the "group genitive" in -s is heavy on the left (and gets heavier as the possessive NP gets longer), which can be harder to process than the right-heavy of-genitive; but the of-genitive is a bit longer (usually, two words: a "the" on the head N, plus the "of"). if i remember the literature correctly, when the possessor NP doesn't end in its head, the of-genitive (the more "analytic" variant) is advancing at the expense of the group genitive (the more "synthetic" variant), which is apparently not very frequent in this configuration. one result is that a few speakers now judge the group genitive in this configuration to be, not merely awkward, but semantically ill- formed (or ungrammatical). see the example in this Language Log posting of mine: AZ, 11/23/06: A friend of mine’s pet bear: http:// itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003814.html in this example, you can see another possible advantage of the group genitive: since the possessor NP comes first, it's more easily interpreted as topical or foregrounded. "a friend of mine's pet bear" foregrounds the friend; "the pet bear of a friend of mine" foregrounds the bear. so a lot depends on what's going on in the discourse. these group genitives aren't disappearing, but it looks like they're becoming the marked variant, mostly used when they have some advantage over the of-genitive. (by the way, some usage advisers just *hate* chains of PPs -- as in "the pet bear of a friend of mine" -- especially when they involve more than one "of".) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 24 02:11:09 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:11:09 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <3c1dab590710230524i21361f35k89428afce7f81be8@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the > original form > > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and this > > spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and > Commonwealth > > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > > although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > > in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that > the US has > > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > > back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > > "titbit". > > > > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > > prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > > changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > > However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > > reason. Was there any 'reinvention' of "tidbit"? What is the evidence? Google Books search in works dated 1750-1850 shows both "tidbit" and "titbit" many times, and both appear to have been used on both sides of the Pond during this time. Some entries in reference books showed both alternatives, e.g. "titbit (properly tidbit)" [published London, 1819]. I see "titbit" used by Washington Irving, "tidbit" by Thomas Moore. This is just at a casual glance. I did not attempt to count the instances ... or to identify the birthplaces of the authors ... or to guess whether each spelling was that of the author or of the editor. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1089 - Release Date: 10/23/2007 7:39 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Oct 24 10:30:27 2007 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:30:27 +0100 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: I always associate titbit/tidbit with the similar alternation between hotchpotch/hodgepodge. Maybe Americans just like voicing their consonants more! :) Lynne --On 23 October 2007 22:11 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular >> Webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): >> >> The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can >> ascertain >> > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the >> original form >> > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >> > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >> > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and >> > this spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and >> Commonwealth >> > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the >> > USA, although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, >> > appearing in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not >> > that >> the US has >> > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason >> > *gone back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when >> > everyone used "titbit". >> > >> > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change >> > was prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude >> > syllables", changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" >> > for "tid". However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for >> > this as the reason. > > Was there any 'reinvention' of "tidbit"? What is the evidence? > > Google Books search in works dated 1750-1850 shows both "tidbit" and > "titbit" many times, and both appear to have been used on both sides > of the Pond during this time. Some entries in reference books showed > both alternatives, e.g. "titbit (properly tidbit)" [published London, > 1819]. I see "titbit" used by Washington Irving, "tidbit" by Thomas > Moore. This is just at a casual glance. I did not attempt to count > the instances ... or to identify the birthplaces of the authors ... > or to guess whether each spelling was that of the author or of the editor. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1089 - Release Date: > 10/23/2007 7:39 PM Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 11:45:29 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:45:29 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again Message-ID: It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used by Terri Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, the prophesies' answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 24 14:28:18 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:28:18 -0700 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10710240445s7ebf5eabxd191a19cf9a8515d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:45 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used > by Terri > Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, the > prophesies' > answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). ah, but is this just spelling? this all started with a pronunciation difference. huge number of hits for {"a prophesy"}, but i'd guess that nearly all of them represent the pronunciation with /i/. also many hits for the verb "prophecied", presumably pronounced with /aj/. Brians, Common Errors: “Prophecy,” the noun, (pronounced “PROF-a-see”) is a prediction. The verb “to prophesy” (pronounced “PROF-a-sigh”) means to predict something. When a prophet prophesies he or she utters prophecies. MWDEU: The OED shows that historically both spellings have been used for both functions. Webster's Second recognizes -cy for the verb and -sy for the noun as infrequent variants, and so does Webster's Third. ----- but all this is about spelling. MWDEU on "prophesize": Bremner 1980 says this word does not exist, but it does. It is, however, of such low frequency in print that it is not eligible for entry even in an unabridged dictionary. We have examples so far from 1966 and 1981, and a local western Massachusetts newspaper not noted fr elegant spelling essayed _prophesize_ in 1974. ----- [but now it's in the OED] the Columbia Guide to Standard American English (1993) says it is Substandard, apparently an error caused by a feeling that _prophesy_ needs a suffix to be a real verb. To say or write _prophesize_ is a shibboleth. ---- ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. follow-ups by various people, including David Barnhart [contrast with the Columbia Guide above]: The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. the first note at the end of the entry] prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with communication; common) ---- and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under "prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, 19- prophecize. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:08:23 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:08:23 +0000 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <846745FD-7504-48A7-A6D2-BAE4ED4EE459@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Arnold, for this definitive explication. The most important issue seems to be what else is going on in the discourse. The length of the phrase may marginally affect intelligibility. Otherwise, strong feelings one way or another are just a matter of taste--not surprising, because generally when the language offers speakers options, folks will try to come up with gross generalizations about the "meaning" and suitability of the variants (eg, "the passive is awkward," "pronouncing {-ing} as /-in/ is vulgar, etc ) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:52:54 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Jerry's the comedian wife On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ... MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry > Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is > "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife > of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." there's a trade: the "group genitive" in -s is heavy on the left (and gets heavier as the possessive NP gets longer), which can be harder to process than the right-heavy of-genitive; but the of-genitive is a bit longer (usually, two words: a "the" on the head N, plus the "of"). if i remember the literature correctly, when the possessor NP doesn't end in its head, the of-genitive (the more "analytic" variant) is advancing at the expense of the group genitive (the more "synthetic" variant), which is apparently not very frequent in this configuration. one result is that a few speakers now judge the group genitive in this configuration to be, not merely awkward, but semantically ill- formed (or ungrammatical). see the example in this Language Log posting of mine: AZ, 11/23/06: A friend of mine’s pet bear: http:// itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003814.html in this example, you can see another possible advantage of the group genitive: since the possessor NP comes first, it's more easily interpreted as topical or foregrounded. "a friend of mine's pet bear" foregrounds the friend; "the pet bear of a friend of mine" foregrounds the bear. so a lot depends on what's going on in the discourse. these group genitives aren't disappearing, but it looks like they're becoming the marked variant, mostly used when they have some advantage over the of-genitive. (by the way, some usage advisers just *hate* chains of PPs -- as in "the pet bear of a friend of mine" -- especially when they involve more than one "of".) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:16:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:16:53 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710150104.l9EB7mbK023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Damn! In my day, we had to do policing by hand! The sergeant would say: "Start bending and picking! I don't want to see nothing but assholes and elbows!" -Wilson On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today ___, tomorrow the world > > Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > > Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > According to a post in the Mudcat Forum (3), it "is a citation from the > chorus of a song (from 1932?):" "Es zittern die morschen Knochen" by Hans > Baumann (4, 5). The refrain is > > Wir werden weiter marschieren > > Wenn alles in Scherben f=E4llt, > > Denn heute da h=F6rt uns Deutschland > > Und morgen die ganze Welt. > > > > (so, not so much a citation as perhaps an allusion) -- which, if my > undergraduate German serves me, means approximately > > We will march on > > (even) if everything falls to pieces, > > for today Germany hears us > > and tomorrow the whole world. > > > > But "da h=F6rt uns" 'hears us', as printed here, may well either be a > softening of "geh=F6rt uns", or have been understood as "da geh=F6rt uns", > 'belongs to us' (6). > > My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The > Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. > collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, > mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 1= > 0 > and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original > slogan. > > m a m > > 1. > http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpa= > rtei; > scroll down to Slogans > 2. http://movies.go.com/tomorrow-the-world/d787709/drama > 3. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3D55750; search for > "translation", in the post by "Wolfgang" of 24 Feb 2003. > 4. http://ingeb.org/Lieder/eszitter.html > 5. http://www.kollektives-gedaechtnis.de/texte/vor45/lieder.html > 6. http://schmautz.gmxhome.de/nachd.htm, bottom of page > 7. http://www.valleybooks.net/cgi-bin/valleybooks/14034.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 24 15:28:48 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:28:48 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <588A56A3-674F-447B-8AA2-1D7F6C9D3AB2@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > >follow-ups by various people, including David Barnhart [contrast with >the Columbia Guide above]: >The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. >the first note at the end of the entry] > >prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). >Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with >communication; common) > >---- > >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, >19- prophecize. > And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a "prophesize" from 1895). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:37:33 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:37:33 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? In-Reply-To: <200710132140.l9DAuWU1003055@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's hard to say. IMO, it's definitely a tip of the slung, but it could very well have been motivated by an underlying BE form. It's happened to me. Indeed, it can even occur in writing, let alone in speech. There are forms that you're so accustomed to using that it never occurs to you that they're not universal, until members of The Other Group start looking confused, as was the case in my "fuck over" anecdote. -Wilson On 10/13/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I > wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. > /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me > because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 24 16:31:45 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:31:45 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241528.l9OAkW2t026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: > >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in > >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the > >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > > > >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under > >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with > >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, > >19- prophecize. > > > And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry > includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a > "prophesize" from 1895). Sadly, though, OED doesn't include another lexical oddity from Dylan's 1964 output, the eggcorn "scrapegoat" as used in "Ballad in Plain D" ("The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone / By the jealousy of others around her"). This would be difficult to include, actually, since it appears as "scapegoat" in the published lyrics. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 24 16:45:06 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:45:06 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? Message-ID: Of course, Southerners--black and white, and perhaps AAVE-influenced speakers elsewhere--tend to manifest the word "interest" without the final [-t]. Thence the possible pluralizing of "interest" as "interes'es." I believe I myself tend to use something like a zero-plural (phonologically speaking) for the word (as pronounced [-t]-lessly). In any case, the /-sts/ cluster is just TOO MUCH! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:37:33 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >It's hard to say. IMO, it's definitely a tip of the slung, but it could very well have been motivated by an underlying BE form. It's happened to me. Indeed, it can even occur in writing, let alone in speech. There are forms that you're so accustomed to using that it never occurs to you that they're not universal, until members of The Other Group start looking confused, as was the case in my "fuck over" anecdote. > >-Wilson > >On 10/13/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> >> In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. >> >> m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 24 20:13:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0400 10/24/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/24/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: >> >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in >> >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the >> >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. >> > >> >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under >> >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with >> >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, >> >19- prophecize. >> > >> And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry >> includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a >> "prophesize" from 1895). > >Sadly, though, OED doesn't include another lexical oddity from Dylan's >1964 output, the eggcorn "scrapegoat" as used in "Ballad in Plain D" >("The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone / By the jealousy of >others around her"). This would be difficult to include, actually, >since it appears as "scapegoat" in the published lyrics. > >--Ben Zimmer > Ben is responsible for the "scrapegoat" entry in the eggcorn database, which includes a commentary from "Mike" from a year ago referencing a Time magazine article in Feb. 1964 in which Lee Harvey Oswald's mother Marguerite accuses the CIA of making her son the scrapegoat. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 24 20:29:34 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:29:34 -0700 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <2106122360-1193238524-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-277643691-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:08 AM, Ron Butters wrote (about the choice between the -s possessive and the of-possessive when the possessor NP is long and/or complex): > The most important issue seems to be what else is going on in the > discourse. i just wanted to pull that out and stress it. a lot of my academic writing these days is taken up with criticizing judgments on isolated phrases and sentences (by linguists, by usage advisers, by ordinary people with an interest in language), when the phenomena at issue are sensitive (often exquisitely so) to aspects of the discourse context, the speaker's/writer's intentions, etc. i have about two dozen Language Log pieces in preparation in which these matters figure prominently. i find it especially vexing that advice for *writers* should be so heavily focused on material examined out of context. i think i understand how the problem arises. a great many people think of discourse as just sentences strung together; you produce a well-formed sentence and then follow it with another one and then another, and so on. it's all very much a "bottom-up" process. if you think of discourse this way, you'll concentrate very much on individual sentences, without context, and you're likely to attribute problems you see to the syntax or style of those sentences. but discourse is organized so as to create coherence for stretches of text, to pursue various goals, and so one. these factors figure significantly in the choices you make in framing individual sentences. ah, well, i need to get back to the specific cases... arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 21:32:02 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:32:02 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161536.l9GAp6oQ000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? -- Anyɛɛ mɔbi. On 16/10/2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas < truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this > official? > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at > authorhouse.com . > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Barry Popik > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > > ... > > ... > > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > > ... > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > > born in the ... > > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors > stand > > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About > the Pew > > Internet & American Life Project > http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 21:35:49 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:35:49 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm assuming is) the majority of speakers? -- Anyɛɛ mɔbi. On 24/10/2007, Stephen Montgomery wrote: > > Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which > word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to > my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly > master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > > And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > -- > Anyɛɛ mɔbi. > > On 16/10/2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society < ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas < truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > > Security) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this > > official? > > > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce > > it. > > > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at > > authorhouse.com . > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > > > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Barry Popik > > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > > > ... > > > ... > > > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > > > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > > > ... > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > > > > > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > > > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > > > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > > > born in the ... > > > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > > > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > > > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > > > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > > > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > > > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > > > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > > > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired > > seniors stand > > > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology > > About the Pew > > > Internet & American Life Project > > http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > > > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > N����q�É�^rԨr'��m�����z��jwbjW���� From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 24 22:01:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:01:57 +0000 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? Message-ID: Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," "presidency")? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 22:31:10 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:31:10 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242145.l9OAlqug026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, from the top. First message: Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? Second message: Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm assuming is) the majority of speakers? [So make that apologies for the triple post and spamming your inboxes with reams of nonsense.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 25 00:22:13 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:22:13 -0700 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <2147254912-1193263337-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-217686175-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb > because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ > cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," > "presidency")? 1. there are plenty of -ize verbs based on nouns ending in /i/, e.g.: analogize, apologize; colonize, harmonize; deputize; summarize; subsidize so: /ti di ni ri Ji/. why should /si/ be excluded? 2. though -ize does many things (derive inchoatives, derive causative-inchoatives, derive verbs meaning 'to supply with', derive verbs meaning 'to behave like', 'to treat the way ... does', etc.), there are semantic restrictions on the bases these various kinds of - ize can combine with. these semantic restrictions remove a large number of bases in /si/ from consideration; in particular, abstract nouns in -ancy/-ency are semantically inappropriate; and "leprosize" would be as odd as "influenzize". i'm not sure that we're left with enough /si/ bases to justify a generalization. 3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: fragranc(e)ize, condominiumize, condomize, Thatcherize, etc. these are nonce formations, but they're interpretable in context. so the fact that you haven't heard or seen a particular -ize word or that it isn't in dictionaries doesn't mean it's impossible, only that people haven't yet seen a use for it. i can easily imagine "legacize" 'supply (with) a legacy, turn sth into a legacy' and "agencize" 'turn sth into an agency' (as in "GWB agencized Homeland Security"). 4. "prophesize" (however you spell it) when it was first created probably meant 'supply (with) prophecies' -- i.e., something very close to "prophesy". the material in the OED is not nearly enough to indicate whether people who had both verbs might have used them a bit differently. but, in any case, "prophesize" is an improvement over "prophesy" on morphological grounds. 5. another fun fact: there's also a verb "prophetize", based on the noun "prophet", presumably meaning originally 'behave like a prophet' -- i.e., 'prophesy', once again. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 00:44:27 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:44:27 -0400 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <4F746051-9F7C-4883-AF27-C8838FD551A8@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/24/2007 08:22 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect >verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: No pun intended by "productive", I assume. By the number of his examples, Arnold has apparently assiduized. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 00:10:06 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:10:06 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242231.l9OGisAr026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: /ts-/ yes, /mn-/ no. m a m (not mn a mn) On 10/24/07, Stephen Montgomery wrote: > > Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now > was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, > from the top. > > First message: > Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which > word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down > to > my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't > properly > master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > > And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 00:07:37 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:07:37 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241428.l9OAkWp7026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:45 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used > > by Terri Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, > the > > prophesies' answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). > > ah, but is this just spelling? this all started with a pronunciation > difference. > > huge number of hits for {"a prophesy"}, but i'd guess that nearly all > of them represent the pronunciation with /i/. also many hits for the > verb "prophecied", presumably pronounced with /aj/. > (Was I up at 4:45 am? Ah, Pacific Time.) "presumably pronounced with /aj/." A reasonable supposition for those who were writing what they'd heard. But once in writing it can be picked up by people who don't connect it with /aj/ -- perhaps have never heard /'prOf at saj/ -- and pronounced with /i:/ as the spelling suggests. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 00:54:20 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:54:20 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710250007.l9OGisHV026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know that more than once I have heard the verb "prophesy" read with /-i/ on the end by people reading scripture in church. I would presume that they simply weren't familiar with the verb (or with its pronunciation, at least), since it is heard much less often than the noun. I wonder whether we will see a trend towards use of "prophesy" pronounced with an /-i/ ending if people continue to see it every so often in text but never to heard pronounced with the /-ai/. I suspect that in general usage "prophesize" is more likely to gain the upper hand, though, as it's formed in a rather more standard way for modern users. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Oct 25 01:01:44 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:01:44 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242231.l9OIu0WY006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, 1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. 2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify Guiness? 3) You don't pronounce the /t/ at the onset of silver? dInIs (long day) >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Stephen Montgomery >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now >was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, >from the top. > >First message: >Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which >word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to >my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly >master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > >And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > > >Second message: >Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did >it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" >might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm >assuming is) the majority of speakers? > >[So make that apologies for the triple post and spamming your inboxes with >reams of nonsense.] > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 01:42:30 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:42:30 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:01 PM -0400 10/24/07, Dennis Preston wrote: >Stephen, > >1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. > >2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if >you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify >Guiness? I pronounce *an* /m/ in mnemonic. ;-) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 02:14:15 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:14:15 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called "number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : "John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided number cube numbered 1-7." Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word usage. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 02:34:35 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 02:39:25 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:39:25 +0000 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <4F746051-9F7C-4883-AF27-C8838FD551A8@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I agree completely, and I add only that my point as that making "prophesy" a verb sans adding /z/ just feels WEIRD. Yet we have e.g. "allied" and other two-syllable words. Arnold has thought this out more carefully than I, though--as usual. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:22:13 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Why "prophesize" ? On Oct 24, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb > because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ > cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," > "presidency")? 1. there are plenty of -ize verbs based on nouns ending in /i/, e.g.: analogize, apologize; colonize, harmonize; deputize; summarize; subsidize so: /ti di ni ri Ji/. why should /si/ be excluded? 2. though -ize does many things (derive inchoatives, derive causative-inchoatives, derive verbs meaning 'to supply with', derive verbs meaning 'to behave like', 'to treat the way ... does', etc.), there are semantic restrictions on the bases these various kinds of - ize can combine with. these semantic restrictions remove a large number of bases in /si/ from consideration; in particular, abstract nouns in -ancy/-ency are semantically inappropriate; and "leprosize" would be as odd as "influenzize". i'm not sure that we're left with enough /si/ bases to justify a generalization. 3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: fragranc(e)ize, condominiumize, condomize, Thatcherize, etc. these are nonce formations, but they're interpretable in context. so the fact that you haven't heard or seen a particular -ize word or that it isn't in dictionaries doesn't mean it's impossible, only that people haven't yet seen a use for it. i can easily imagine "legacize" 'supply (with) a legacy, turn sth into a legacy' and "agencize" 'turn sth into an agency' (as in "GWB agencized Homeland Security"). 4. "prophesize" (however you spell it) when it was first created probably meant 'supply (with) prophecies' -- i.e., something very close to "prophesy". the material in the OED is not nearly enough to indicate whether people who had both verbs might have used them a bit differently. but, in any case, "prophesize" is an improvement over "prophesy" on morphological grounds. 5. another fun fact: there's also a verb "prophetize", based on the noun "prophet", presumably meaning originally 'behave like a prophet' -- i.e., 'prophesy', once again. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Oct 25 02:43:18 2007 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but RPGers needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 03:51:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:51:58 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <2B9C268F14E3E647845C2AA0195E2C96026A2701@UM-XMAIL03.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: At 9:43 PM -0500 10/24/07, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn >Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > >>I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >>dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >>digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >>school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >>be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >>that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >>"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >>she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >>a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >>at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : >> >>"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >>number cube numbered 1-7." >> >>Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >>question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >>meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >>solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >>number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >>usage. >> >Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >the number cube is cast. > >LH > > >Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad >influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but >RPGers needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? > >-Matt >------------------------------------------------------------ Backgammonists? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 06:51:08 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:51:08 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710250142.l9ONu63S026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For want of a term, I call this "spelnouncing" - pronouncing a word as it's spelled, or as one intuits its pronunciation from the usual pronunciation of the letter strings that make up a word. I like this because it follows the alphabetic principle, that letters stand for sounds. The fact that many words do not follow spelnouncing makes English harder to learn. I'm all for making English easier to learn and say. Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that "tidal wave" is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" means. If they have a good reason, I'd like to know it. Perhapas "typhoon" is preferable to "hurricane?" Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:42:30 -0400 > From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 9:01 PM -0400 10/24/07, Dennis Preston wrote: >>Stephen, >> >>1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. >> >>2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if >>you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify >>Guiness? > > I pronounce *an* /m/ in mnemonic. ;-) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Thu Oct 25 08:01:31 2007 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:01:31 +0800 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" In-Reply-To: <200710250651.l9OIu0s4006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that > "tidal wave" is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. Preferred by whom? =) Actually the "powers that be" is "usage". > Perhapas "typhoon" is preferable to "hurricane?" Or Willy-Willy? Living in Typhoon Alley here in Asia, I prefer the meteorological term: tropical cyclone. And... tsunami (silent t) works for me. Russ Taipei ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Oct 25 10:41:08 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:41:08 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241428.l9OAlqZa006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: > >MWDEU on "prophesize": Bremner 1980 says this word does not exist, >but it does. It is, however, of such low frequency in print that it >is not eligible for entry even in an unabridged dictionary. We have >examples so far from 1966 and 1981, and a local western Massachusetts >newspaper not noted fr elegant spelling essayed _prophesize_ in 1974. There's an entry in Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, p 285), if anyone's interested. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 12:55:45 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:55:45 +0000 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 13:55:59 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:55:59 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <1103802520-1193316965-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim .net-109095263-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up not of square faces. If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) Joel >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn > >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in > >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their > >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem > >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided > >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word > >usage. > > >Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >the number cube is cast. > >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 14:15:22 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:15:22 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710251356.l9PDu075016713@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: That should be "Of course," of course. My fingers aren't warmed up this early in the morning. At 10/25/2007 09:55 AM, you wrote: >At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >>Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? > >Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up >not of square faces. > >If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was >some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) > >Joel > >>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Laurence Horn >> >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >>To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes >> >> >> >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >> >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >> >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >> >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >> >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >> >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >> >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >> >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >> >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >> >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : >> > >> >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >> >number cube numbered 1-7." >> > >> >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >> >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >> >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >> >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >> >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >> >usage. >> > >>Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >>that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >>the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >>the number cube is cast. >> >>LH >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 14:28:28 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:28:28 +0000 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: So the mathematicians have redefined "cube"? I would call the four-sided solid a "pyramid." See AMERICAN HERITAGE: CUBE NOUN: 1. Mathematics A regular solid having six congruent square faces. 2a. Something having the general shape of a cube: a cube of sugar. b. A cubicle, used for work or study. 3. Mathematics The third power of a number or quantity. 4. cubes Slang Cubic inches. Used especially of an internal combustion engine. ------Original Message------ From: Joel S. Berson Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 25, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up not of square faces. If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) Joel >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn > >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching mat Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 15:42:23 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 16:18:04 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:18:04 -0500 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkieq023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: News to me. Scot > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400> From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU> Subject: The m-word> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?!> > --Charlie> _____________________________________________________________> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last.  Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 16:26:47 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:26:47 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251618.l9PAkinn026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ to so offend. Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling course. (the other) doug > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 16:44:48 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:44:48 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251627.l9PAkiqv023477@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. WS Quoting Doug Harris : > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Doug Harris > Subject: Re: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive > in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But > I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ > to so offend. > Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling > course. > (the other) doug > >> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= > word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= > _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= > ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= > ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= > e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= > word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= > e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= > nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= > p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= > sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~Will Salmon ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Oct 25 16:41:32 2007 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:41:32 +0100 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkipi026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > From: Charles Doyle > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400 > To: > Subject: The m-word > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had > uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some > of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and > nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male > student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. > That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in > the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As > far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma > attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie Just as long as you're not talking about oysters... Check out www.male 101.com/synonyms [if it's still active] where in 2003 'moist oyster' was listed as a synonym for the vulva/vagina. --Neil Crawford > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 25 16:49:32 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025114223.IKN07418@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women > in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat > flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the > offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual > suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual > arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of > my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a > connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I > could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever > stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 16:55:12 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:55:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:44:48 -0400 >From: William Salmon >Subject: Re: The m-word > >I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. > >WS > >Quoting Doug Harris : >>> >> I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive >> in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But >> I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ >> to so offend. >> Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling >> course. >> (the other) doug >> >>> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= >> word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= >> _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= >> ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= >> ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= >> e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= >> word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= >> e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= >> nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= >> p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= >> sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 16:56:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:56:57 +0000 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025164932.GA17571@panix.com> Message-ID: I have heard "wetty-wetty" used this way, but not "moist." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The m-word On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women > in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat > flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the > offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual > suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual > arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of > my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a > connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I > could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever > stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:01:54 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:01:54 -0400 Subject: "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" Message-ID: I believe that this is the earliest version of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" that has so far been discovered: 1891 _Notes & Queries_ 10 Oct. 288 DEGREES OF FALSEHOOD. -- Who was it who said, "There are three degrees of falsehood: the first is a fib, the second is a lie, and then come statistics"? ST. SWITHIN It does not appear that this query was ever answered. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:02:08 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:02:08 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025114223.IKN07418@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word MOIST!) these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now taking it to be offensive to women. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:10:42 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:10:42 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that my students are consonant with the times. I'll now remember to compliment the cook by describing her cake as exquisitely "wet" or "damp"! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 >From: Jesse Sheidlower > >On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: >> >> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word >> "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & >> Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women >> in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of >> information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat >> flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the >> offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual >> suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual >> arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of >> my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a >> connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I >> could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever >> stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > >This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: > >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:17:40 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251655.l9PAki0U026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry. That should be that I have heard it used offensively with "a" diminutive suffix. And the suffix in question is -ie/-y. > "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? > > ---- Original message ---- >> I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. >> >> WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Oct 25 17:22:40 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:22:40 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710250403.l9P09lTV026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > Today ___, tomorrow the world > Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The > Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. > collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, > mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 > and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original > slogan. My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the exact way the DJ ended the discussion: Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today DC, tomorrow the world! -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:33:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:33:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251657.l9PAkiqI023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wetty-wetty???? WTF??? 'Makes me wanna barfy-poo. (the other) doug I have heard "wetty-wetty" used this way, but not "moist." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:36:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:36:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251717.l9PH7b8P026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And what, one may wonder, were you _doing_ in a 'moistie" context, anyway? ;) (the other) doug Sorry. That should be that I have heard it used offensively with "a" diminutive suffix. And the suffix in question is -ie/-y. > "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? > > ---- Original message ---- >> I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. >> >> WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:39:34 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:39:34 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025131042.IKP02331@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 1:10 PM -0400 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the evident >aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the vehemence of >that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that my students are >consonant with the times. > >I'll now remember to compliment the cook by describing her cake as >exquisitely "wet" or "damp"! > >--Charlie Very interesting; I had no idea of the existence of this phenomenon, much less its breadth and depth. It looks to me as though the source is (as so often in language) an effect of the combination of sound (in particular the /oi/ nucleus exacerbated by the following voiceless sibilant) and meaning (in particular the collocational one, as a modifier of panties). So neither "choice", say, nor "damp" have any particular aversive effect. Is it, as it appears to me, only women who are "moist"ophobic? So it would appear from the evidence presented on the Language Log posts, along with Charlie's post. LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 >>From: Jesse Sheidlower >> >>On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word >>> "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & >>> Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women >>> in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of >>> information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat >>> flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the >>> offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual >>> suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual >>> arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of >>> my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a >>> connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I >>> could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever >>> stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! >> >>This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: >> >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:41:00 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:41:00 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251723.l9PAki5w026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course the phrase would have taken on a totally different meaning had the speaker been referring more specifically to a certain MD city rather than the entire state: "Yesterday, AC, today DC, tomorrow we're _all_ connected." (the other) doug My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the exact way the DJ ended the discussion: Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today DC, tomorrow the world! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:49:11 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <4720D0E0.7010700@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 1:22 PM -0400 10/25/07, David Bowie wrote: >On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > >>Today ___, tomorrow the world > >>Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > >>Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi >>party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > > >>My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The >>Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. >>collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, >>mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 >>and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original >>slogan. > >My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would >have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the >then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which >would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought >that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way >of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the >exact way the DJ ended the discussion: > > Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today > DC, tomorrow the world! > A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 18:00:03 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:00:03 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251749.l9PAki3Y023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_not_i ll_take_manhattan/ (And notice who's URL that is!!! (the other) doug A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonar d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 18:20:34 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:20:34 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <02b501c81730$de6d8e50$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: At 2:00 PM -0400 10/25/07, Doug Harris wrote: >Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: >http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_not_i >ll_take_manhattan/ Different sense of "take", though. Cohen's is more the hostile takeover model. --"Lorenz" H. > >(And notice who's URL that is!!! >(the other) doug > >A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): > >First we take Manhattan, >Then we take Berlin > >Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at >http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonar >d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. >Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very >Cohenian music video with many seagulls. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 25 18:17:45 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:17:45 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: A<02b501c81730$de6d8e50$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: The lyrics for "Manhattan" on Barry's site refer to My Fair Lady and South Pacific, which seems unlikely for a 1925 song. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:00 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_n ot_i ll_take_manhattan/ (And notice who's URL that is!!! (the other) doug A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Le onar d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 25 18:03:28 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:03:28 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025131042.IKP02331@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 01:10:42PM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the > evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the > vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that > my students are consonant with the times. I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 18:37:42 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:37:42 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025180328.GA5824@panix.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 18:43:53 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:43:53 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <1626231138-1193322528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim .net-1622448584-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 25 18:32:37 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:32:37 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251749.l9PAki3Y023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 1:22 PM -0400 10/25/07, David Bowie wrote: > >On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > >>Today ___, tomorrow the world > > > >>Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > > > >>Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > >>party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): > > First we take Manhattan, > Then we take Berlin Two other New York-oriented variants... * In the original version of Mel Brooks' "The Producers" (1968), at the premiere of "Springtime for Hitler" the playwright Franz Liebkind announces, "Today Broadway, tomorrow..." and then trails off making vague hand gestures. * The 1976 debut album by The Ramones featured "Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World." Wikipedia says the song "was inspired by Dee Dee's youth in Germany, as well as Johnny's fascination with old WWII movies. Originally titled 'I'm a Nazi, Baby' the song features tongue in cheek lyrics about Nazism, such as, 'I'm a shock trooper in a stupor, yes I am/ I'm a Nazi schatze, you know I fight for the fatherland'. This song, along with "Blitzkrieg Bop", mark the first appearance of Nazi themes and imagery in Punk music (even though Joey was Jewish)." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 25 18:57:53 2007 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:57:53 -0700 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710250246.l9ONu64W026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn > Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in > >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their > >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem > >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided > >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word > >usage. > > > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling > that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether > the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, > the number cube is cast. > > LH > > > Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad > influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but RPGers > needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? > > -Matt Its too bad they didn't adopt RPG nomenclature for dice; I would have liked it if the example would had read "John was tossing 1d4 and 1d7." Jeff Prucher Editor, Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction http://www.jeffprucher.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 19:04:07 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:04:07 -0400 Subject: Media Request Message-ID: I have had a request from a national television show wanting to talk with someone knowledgeable about dialectology, located near to New York or Los Angeles. My impression is that dialectologists tend to be located in the South or maybe Midwest, so I am at a bit of a loss. If anyone knowledgeable about dialectology in the N.Y. or L.A. areas is interested, or if anyone else can suggest such a person, I'd love to hear from you. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 19:13:29 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:13:29 -0400 Subject: Washeteria (January 1936) Message-ID: WASHETERIA--28,700 Google hits WASHATERIA--23,600 Google hits WASHITERIA--128 Google hits ... OED has an entry for "washeteria," but it needs revision. WIll DARE have it? Was this term coined by C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth, TX in 1936? ... Washiteria--with "shit" in the middle--is seldom used, but it's worth adding for errant Googlers. ... O.T.: I'm still recovering from Wednesday's New York Times lead story on "Tex-Mex." The guy (a NYT sports writer) never came to Austin and never interviewed me (first cites of "Tex-Mex"), but he did interview Robb Walsh (who wrote a book on "Tex-Mex" several years ago). What was the purpose of the article--what Tex-Mex means to NYT sportswriter Joe Drape? Why now?...Also, there are some fine Tex-Mex places in NYC. My wife misses Blockheads and its $4 Margaritas. Actually, my wife misses ANY Margaritas these days. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/washeteria_washateria_washiteria/ ... Entry from October 25, 2007 Washeteria (Washateria; Washiteria) The "washeteria" (wash + cafeteria) is often spelled ""washateria" or even "washiteria" (with the dirty word in the middle). The washeteria is popular in the South; it is called a "laundromat" or "launderette" is other places. The Modern Mechanix (January 1936) article in the November 1, 2005 post (below) asserts that the first "washeteria" was opened by C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth. Fact Monster wash•a•te•ri•a Pronunciation: (wosh"u-tēr'ē-u, wô"shu-) —n. Chiefly Southern U.S. a launderette. Also,washeteria. Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright (c) 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease. Answers.com wash·e·teria (wŏsh'ĭ-tîr'ē-ə, wô'shĭ-) n. A laundromat. [WASH + (CAF)ETERIA.] Urban Dictionary washateria (noun) where jase and the other scragglers wash they clothes. "One of you pledges needs to give me a ride to the washateria. I am running out of clothes. I will let Solana wash some stuff but not my underwear because they stank." by Ches Fedric Miss. State Univ. Nov 1, 2005 Mr. Smarty Pants (Austin Chronicle) Laundromat Facts The word "washateria," primarily used in the South, came into the English language around 1937. Bendix Appliances invented the automatic washing machine in 1937. The word "laundromat" was registered as a trademark by Westinghouse Electric, a subsidiary of White Consolidated Industries on Oct. 1, 1947. Westinghouse listed the word as first being used in commerce on Oct. 26, 1940, and renewed the trademark in 1988. Early laundromats were open specific hours, and since they did not necessarily feature coin-operated machines, there was always an attendant on duty. Some even required that you make an appointment. The first unattended, 24-hour self-service laundromat in the United States was opened by Nelson Puett in 1949 on North Loop in Austin, Texas about where present day Room Service is located. According to the March 1950 issue of Nation's Business, there were an estimated 4,000 laundromats, laundrettes, laundreezes, and assorted self-service washeries nationwide in 1950. (Oxford English Dictionary) washeteria orig. and chiefly U.S. Also washateria. [f. WASH v. + -ETERIA.] a. = LAUNDERETTE. 1959 [see -TERIA suffix]. 1966 Sunday Times 17 July 30 Now that we have grown accustomed to the blandishments of..something called Washeterias, the next step may be drive-in laundries. b. car washeteria: a self-service car-washing establishment. 1965 Daily Tel. 14 May 20/2 (Advt.), The demand from motorists for simple-to-operate inexpensive car washing facilities will go on growing. Here's how the Car Washeteria answers these requirements. 27 October 1940, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 7 classified ad: FOR SALE at a bargain, Washateria, all new equipment, one year old. If interested see DOSSIE DEEDS at Top Rail stand in Cedar Hill, Texas. 11 November 1941, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 3 classified ad: FOR SALE—Money-making washeteria, account being draftee. Good equipment, business well established. JOE BOX, Grapevine, Texas. The Daily Texican Tuesday, July 27, 2004 Spanglish Word Of The Day - Washateria Washateria: This has to be one of the best words I've heard, because it's even been introduced into the maintstream. Drive by a laundry mat in Oak Cliff or East Dallas and it says: Washateria. Oh my god, that's awesome. posted by Daily Texican at 11:33 AM 6 Comments: (...) Anonymous said… also, it's spelled "washeteria" and it is not "Spanglish" 10:40 PM (...) Anonymous said… I grew up in East Texas and never saw a spanish person, we always said "washateria" I never heard laundromat used until I went to college in San Antonio 12:46 PM Modern Mechanix November 21, 2005 Powered by Gregarious World's First Washeteria Opened (Jan, 1936) Filed under: Origins — @ 3:49 pm Source: Modern Mechanix 1-1936 A new idea promptly put to work has resulted in a fast growing business for Mr. C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth, Texas. He decided women who did not have room for a modern laundry in their home would be glad to pay to do their own washing in a place that did. He established the world's first washeteria, and found he was right. 4776 Hammel 10.24.2007 (...) Texas is strange, its also the place that calls laundry mats washiterias. (Trademark) Word Mark WASHETERIA Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 037. US 103. G & S: COIN OPERATED LAUNDRY SERVICE. FIRST USE: 19590505. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19590505 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 72080687 Filing Date September 1, 1959 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0740756 Registration Date November 13, 1962 Owner (REGISTRANT) WASHETERIA, INC. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 26 RACINE ST. JANESVILLE WISCONSIN Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 25 19:19:38 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:19:38 -0400 Subject: Hamburger/Steakburger Sandwich, Cheeseburger In-Reply-To: <200710231705.l9NAl4Go015524@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/23/07, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > What is the earliest "steakburger" that you have found? Last year I posted a 1934 cite for "steakburger" from S.J. Perelman: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0607B&L=ADS-L&P=R3367 Dunno if Barry's beaten that. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From baesparza at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 19:45:38 2007 From: baesparza at GMAIL.COM (Bradley A. Esparza) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:45:38 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251837.l9PIbiSu017714@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This reminds me of the choice I make when I decide to use "difficult" instead of "hard". I find myself constantly catching myself so I won't possibly be taken as a raconteur. On 10/25/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 10/25/2007 02:03 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if > someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must > acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. > > > As Charles Doyle wrote: > > except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds > women of sexual arousal > > > Female embarrassment about sexual arousal? (Although I surmise that > moistness would be considered by some females -- and males -- as an > advantage.) Perhaps more suited for study by a psychology email list than > ADS-L. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American > Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Bradley A. Esparza "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think." Dorothy Parker, when asked to use the word 'horticulture' in a sentence. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 22:17:06 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:17:06 -0400 Subject: nasal spray flu shot Message-ID: U.S. FDA OKs nasal spray flu shot for very young http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071024/nasal_spray_071024/20071024?hub=Health Evidently "flu shot" has, at least for some users, broadened beyond the "injection" sense of "shot" that I still think of it as having. Perhaps this is under the influence of other non-injection uses of "shot", of which there are of course several. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 22:18:37 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:18:37 -0400 Subject: wage in on Message-ID: This one is new to me. I've posted it on the eggcorn forum. A co-worker just said to me, "That's quite a dilemma, and not one I'm going to wage in on." I've found instances of it on the web. The first few: http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B974BDFE2-9AF5-4CE5-8B15-E0C869ACE211%7D&siteid=mktw Check back at guruscorner.com on Wednesday when firebrand Martin Weiss of the Safe Money Report will wage in on the rate cut and its effect on deflation. [probably for "weigh in"] http://www.thegamergene.com/tag/halo-3/ Religious leaders are often quick to wage in on the negative site for the video game debate but not so in this case. [possibly for "wade in"] http://library.thinkquest.org/26638/war/index.html War was also no longer limited to the combatting sides, for foreigners could wage in on one side or another and change completely the dynamics of the conflict. [likely directly affected by "waging war"] http://community.eons.com/groups/topics/internet-dating-after-50---ugh/1/2007/05 I'm going to take a risk here and wage in on a delicate topic that seems to pervade many of these postings [could be weigh or wade] http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nlevina/GOS-spr-06-FTMBa.htm We will wage in on the debate on the pros and cons of global sourcing (offshoring). [probably for "weigh in"] 16,300 total ghits for "wage in on" but not all are examples of this usage -- about 50%, by the look of the first couple of pages of results. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Oct 25 22:29:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:29:45 -0700 Subject: nasal spray flu shot In-Reply-To: <200710252218.l9PAkiUe026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What should it properly be called? I'd call it a shot not because I think it's an inoculation, but because I lack a better word that people including me understand...BB On Oct 25, 2007, at 3:17 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > Poster: James Harbeck > > > U.S. FDA OKs nasal spray flu shot for very young > http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071024/ > nasal_spray_071024/20071024?hub=Health > > Evidently "flu shot" has, at least for some users, broadened beyond > the "injection" sense of "shot" that I still think of it as having. > Perhaps this is under the influence of other non-injection uses of > "shot", of which there are of course several. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 23:05:51 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:05:51 -0400 Subject: Fortune Cookies (1901 for Halloween; 1926, Japanese party in Texas) Message-ID: These two "fortune cookies" cites are interesting. The Japanese use is nothing new, but it's an early cite. Fortune cookies for Halloween? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_cookie Origin San Francisco and Los Angeles both lay claim to the origin of the fortune cookie. Makoto Hagiwara of Golden Gate Park's Japanese Tea Garden in San Francisco is said to have invented the cookie in 1909. while David Jung, founder of the Hong Kong Noodle Company in Los Angeles, is said to have invented them in 1918. ... ... 2 November 1901, Prescott (AZ) Morning Courier, pg. 2: Thursday evening, from 7 to 9 o'clock, Mary, Frank and Gail Gardner entertained quite a number of their little friends at the home of their parents with a Hallowe'en party. Many interesting and laughable games were played. Then came the drawing for the seat of honor at the table. Henry Adams drew the lucky number. He seemed particularly fortunate, as he also drew the pen in the fortune cookies, which denotes that he will be a famous writer. ... ... 10 September 1926, Big Spring (TX) Herald, "Japanese Motif Expressed in Parties for Visitor," pg. 11, col. 2: Fortune cookies were served with the main course, and enclosed in each one was a rhyme or fortune, and pretty Japanese parasols were other plate favors. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Oct 25 23:05:53 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:05:53 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710250651.l9OIu0s4006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that > be that "tidal wave" > is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 23:43:36 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:43:36 -0400 Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami Message-ID: Spoken by Horatio: "I had him dead to _his_ rights and lost him." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 00:05:52 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:05:52 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkieq023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My wife suggests that the women be asked about "hot," after I mentioned to her that, in my lost youth, "hot," when applied to a woman, meant that she had the female equivalent of a boner, i.e. was sexually aroused to the point of being moist and ready for sexual intercourse, or was infected with gonorrhea. It had nothing whatsoever to do with physical attractiveness. -Wilson On 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 01:40:29 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:40:29 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251803.l9PAki52023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Awright, Charlie, here's watcha got: You got somebody who's nuts. Mildly, but still nuts. She don't like "moist," and she's watcha call a politically-correct female. So she figures the problem ain't with her, it's with the word "moist." She's "offended," so it's gotta be the word's fault. And since she's a woman, that makes it "offensive to women." In your specific context of college youth, the others, as soon as they heard the phrase "offensive to women," probly figured it's smarter to agree, especially if any of them have the same funny kink about "moist." JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 01:10:42PM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the > evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the > vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that > my students are consonant with the times. I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 01:42:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:42:16 -0700 Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami In-Reply-To: <200710252343.l9PMm7X4026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That must mean "oblivious to his First Amendment rights. But then I had to give that damn Miranda warning." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spoken by Horatio: "I had him dead to _his_ rights and lost him." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 01:56:33 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:56:33 -0400 Subject: nasal spray flu shot In-Reply-To: <200710252229.l9PAkiQb023477@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What should it properly be called? I'd call it a shot not because I >think it's an inoculation, but because I lack a better word that >people including me understand...BB Nasal spray vaccine (or vaccination). Or nasal spray inoculation, I suppose. Or flu vaccine nasal spray -- I'm sure that would work fine. I think "vaccine" gets used enough now that it's not too high level for news. Perhaps not everyone agrees. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 02:09:41 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:09:41 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: >So the mathematicians have redefined "cube"? I would call the >four-sided solid a "pyramid." Not so much the mathematicians as certain education policy makers, I'd say. Ones who can't seem to recognize an opportunity to teach "tetrahedron," "heptahedron," etc. I don't think four-sided dice (number tetrahedra) roll all that well, but they seem to serve the purpose for many role-playing games. The ones they use (along with various other aleatory polyhedra -- octohedra, decahedra, dodecahedra, icosahedra, and of course cubes, all of which are generally referred to as X-sided dice in my experience) have rounded vertices. They land with point up, of course, so the numbers are written along the bottom edge of each face -- i.e., each face has three numbers, one for each edge. One way of getting around the rolling problem and still generate a number out of 4 is of course to use octohedra with two of each number. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 02:18:47 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:18:47 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710251858.l9PAkiGE026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Its too bad they didn't adopt RPG nomenclature for dice; I would have liked it >if the example would had read "John was tossing 1d4 and 1d7." LOL! Now I remember that terminology! Obviously I was never a major RPGer, and I haven't touched one in a couple of decades. The problem would be what the d stands for... the word that was deemed too evocative of gambling in the first place (the editors who informed me of this were of the mind that that was hte issue; as to the die/dice plural issue, that would have been something that the editors would have been in a position to exercise rather more influence on -- it's the political stuff that overrules). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kdaly973 at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 26 02:35:51 2007 From: kdaly973 at VERIZON.NET (Kate Daly) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251644.l9PAkitV026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. -Kate At 12:44 PM 10/25/2007, William Salmon wrote: >I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. > >WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 26 03:16:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:16:58 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <0JQH00IQBZ7WLO88@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM -0400 10/25/07, Kate Daly wrote: >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, >the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I >think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other >people to throw. >-Kate Except that as we've now learned from the Language Log postings (not to mention the existence of the "I HATE the word MOIST" facebook group), she's hardly alone in this. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 06:39:08 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:39:08 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710252306.l9PMob3J026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I picture myself asking Prof. Irwin Corey which term is better for American Powers that Be to choose for American media, "tidal wave" or "tsunami", and picture his reply as this: You ask which term is better. Let's look at the factors, my friend. 1. Root words. "Tidal wave" is English, and Americans speak English. Not good. Besides "wave is duplicitous. It could mean waving "hi hello" with your hand. Whereas "tsunami" is Japanese. Good. An import. Free trade. No baggage of knowing what words mean. "Tsunami" means "harbor wave". There are lots of harbors. Lots of roots. Lots of harbor canals. Root canals. Root canals are no fun. Tsunamis are no fun. Brilliant logic. 2. Pronunciation. Anybody can say "tidal wave" in America. It's English. Not good. Too simple. Simple things for simple people, I say. But "tsunami" is complex. Do we say the "t" or not. Phonetically they put a (t) in front. Excellent. You get choice, and I'm pro choice. Imagine looking up the word with a beginning parens. Brilliant diversity. In fact the "t" before the "s" to start a word is the latest thing. I tsay it all the time. 3. Precedence. The term "tidal wave" came first by about 30 years. Not good. "Tsunami" is the new term. Newer is better. Look what happened to "brontosaurus." You gotta keep up. In fact I predict "hurricane" will dissappear. It was named "her" because of all the girl names they gave them. But men demanded equal time. So half became "himicanes." Which created a tie. Therefore the word "typhoon" best reflects that tie. And don't you love the "ph" instead of "f" in the word "typhoon". So scientific. Changing Aphrica to Africa was a big mistake. Too tsimple. Less spicey. 4. Impact. Term "tidal wave" has no emotional impact. When you say "hello", you wave. No good. But everybody knows that the most important 3-syllable word in Japanese is "Godzilla". "Godzilla! Godzilla" Run for your life." Now it's "Tsunami! Run for your life!" Great emotional linkage. Looks like tsunami is the obvious winner. Of course there are no Powers that Be anymore to make decisions (except perhaps Rupert Murdock). Oops I hear my wife calling. Coming honey. Gotta go. Tsee you later. (Tstrang, I tseem to have tstarted tsome kind of tsilly lisp!?) Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:05:53 -0500 > From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > >> Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that >> be that "tidal wave" >> is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" >> means. > > I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite > some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our > mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. > > So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost > Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther > down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 26 13:00:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:00:20 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 14:11:07 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:11:07 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710260006.l9PMob7X026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's pretty much right, Wilson. It was also true in my own youth, and in Chaucer's youth too, according to a reputable slang dictionary. It should be observed, though, that the modern sense of "sexy" could occasionally be heard in the 1930s. James T. Farrell used it a couple of times. Paul Muni in _Scarface_ (1932) takes a gander at lissome Karen Morley and sez, "That's hot!" His sidekick replies informatively,"That's Poppy." Reason: popularity of "hot" in the '20s to mean great or exciting, though more often in negative constructions, i.e., "not so hot." And cf. "hot mama." But the current nuance wasn't a big deal till ca1980. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife suggests that the women be asked about "hot," after I mentioned to her that, in my lost youth, "hot," when applied to a woman, meant that she had the female equivalent of a boner, i.e. was sexually aroused to the point of being moist and ready for sexual intercourse, or was infected with gonorrhea. It had nothing whatsoever to do with physical attractiveness. -Wilson On 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 14:18:12 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:18:12 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710261302.l9QAnGNG015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie, you'll have noticed the current TV commercials that feature A. a bouncing balloon filled with urine, and B. giant anthropomorphic mucus. Market researchers seem to have determined that these images are very appealing to today's prime demographic. They'll move products. (Or "product," as products are so often called on TV.) JL Charles Doyle wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Charles Doyle Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 26 14:36:34 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:36:34 -0400 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" Message-ID: At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": << It reminds me of a saying we used to have in Wyoming, which is, Dogs don't bark at parked cars. >> (Interview in _Time_, 20 Sept. 2007) << And we have a saying in Wyoming, which goes like this, "Dogs don't bark at parked cars." >> (Interview on MSNBC, 11 Oct. 2007) Of course, she is referring to denunciations of her husband. Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? Any information will be appreciated! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Fri Oct 26 14:36:21 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:36:21 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710261418.l9QAkRMB015119@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It is increasingly difficult finding a TV program in which the main competition isn't something like projectile vomiting; but if one watches things like the Last Comic Standing and listens to what passes these days for humor, if is not hard to see why. L. Urdang Old Lyme Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charlie, you'll have noticed the current TV commercials that feature A. a bouncing balloon filled with urine, and B. giant anthropomorphic mucus. Market researchers seem to have determined that these images are very appealing to today's prime demographic. They'll move products. (Or "product," as products are so often called on TV.) JL Charles Doyle wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Charles Doyle Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 17:26:28 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:26:28 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? Message-ID: What do the experts say about -- In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God a No. 1 enemy." Who vs. that? Has vs. have? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 26 18:28:28 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:28:28 -0700 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710261726.l9QHQXDk007865@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Joel Berson wrote: > What do the experts say about -- > > In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of > emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War > marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God > a No. 1 enemy." > > Who vs. that? "that" (or "which") is standard, but relative "who" is not infrequently used with heads referring to human institutions, organizations, etc.: "a company who cares about you". an actual cite: When Zucker telegraphed the German firm who made and packed his special rocket fuel, he discovered that the Nazis had banned its export. (Christopher Turner, "Letter Bombs", _Cabinet_ 23 (Fall 2006), p. 29) i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) not in MWDEU, apparently. > Has vs. have? only "has". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 19:27:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:27:31 -0400 Subject: Hear on the Judges: Message-ID: "Bowling pin" used to mean the shape of a bottle of Budweiser "Ice." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 26 19:41:31 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:41:31 +0000 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" Message-ID: Dogs DO bark at a number of unpleasant things--loud mouth jerks, for example. I suspect that this silly saying is a product of Mrs. Cheney's weak-minded imagination. If not, it is typical of her mind that she would have thought it clever. ------Original Message------ From: Charles Doyle Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 26, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: [ADS-L] "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": << It reminds me of a saying we used to have in Wyoming, which is, Dogs don't bark at parked cars. >> (Interview in _Time_, 20 Sept. 2007) << And we have a saying in Wyoming, which goes like this, "Dogs don't bark at parked cars." >> (Interview on MSNBC, 11 Oct. 2007) Of course, she is referring to denunciations of her husband. Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? Any information will be appreciated! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 21:22:04 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:22:04 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <0920CA9F-EBCF-44D3-A0B5-7FD6B37AE109@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 02:28 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 26, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Joel Berson wrote: > >>What do the experts say about -- >> >>In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of >>emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War >>marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God >>a No. 1 enemy." >> >>Who vs. that? > >"that" (or "which") is standard, but relative "who" is not >infrequently used with heads referring to human institutions, >organizations, etc.: "a company who cares about you". an actual cite: > >When Zucker telegraphed the German firm who made and packed his >special rocket fuel, he discovered that the Nazis had banned its export. > (Christopher Turner, "Letter Bombs", _Cabinet_ 23 (Fall 2006), p. 29) > >i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when >it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples >systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the >spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent >development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) > >not in MWDEU, apparently. > >>Has vs. have? > >only "has". Well, with "nation who" I somehow wanted "have". Interesting, to me -- subconscious association of "who" with people, and thus plural? And, I assume, not "has" but "have" in Britain? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 21:35:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:35:03 -0400 Subject: "hard (cider)" 1786 antedates OED2 1789- Message-ID: Take a six quart jug of old hard cider, put therein a pint of country mustard seed, one double handful of parsley roots, one double handful of lignum vitae shavings, add one double handful of horseradish roots; let them simmer together over a slow fire 48 hours, when it will be fit for use. [From the Albany Gazette. FYI, a medicine for the cure of the Dropsy.] 3/2 "hard" (a) antedates OED2 sense 14.c 1789- Vermont Journal, 1786 25 April Early American Newspapers ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 23:29:32 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:29:32 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki Message-ID: From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 26 23:47:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:47:07 -0400 Subject: "hard (cider)" 1786 antedates OED2 1789- In-Reply-To: <200710262135.l9QLZRC0001790@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0400 10/26/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Take a six quart jug of old hard cider, put therein a pint of country >mustard seed, one double handful of parsley roots, one double handful >of lignum vitae shavings, add one double handful of horseradish >roots; let them simmer together over a slow fire 48 hours, when it >will be fit for use. >[From the Albany Gazette. FYI, a medicine for the cure of the Dropsy.] > >3/2 >"hard" (a) >antedates OED2 sense 14.c 1789- > >Vermont Journal, 1786 >25 April >Early American Newspapers > I don't know. Both hard and moist; I think this drink is just too off-color for the current age. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 00:24:15 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:24:15 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710262122.l9QI8pfY015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/26/2007 02:28 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >> [...] >> i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when >> it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples >> systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the >> spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent >> development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) >> >> not in MWDEU, apparently. >> >> >>> Has vs. have? >>> >> only "has". >> > > Well, with "nation who" I somehow wanted "have". Interesting, to me > -- subconscious association of "who" with people, and thus plural? > > Here are a few cites from Project Gutenberg. ================ Sir, I place myself upon the Constitution, in the presence of a nation who have the Declaration of Independence read to them every Fourth of July, and profess to believe it. SPEECH OF JOHN HOSSACK, CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF THE FUGITIVE SLAVE LAW, BEFORE JUDGE DRUMMOND, OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, CHICAGO, ILL. NEW YORK: PUBLISHED BY THE AMERICAN ANTI-SLAVERY SOCIETY. 1860. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/1/3/9/8/13987/13987-h/13987-h.htm ================ He tried raising sums of money on national credit, and also devised a company who were to lend money to found a great settlement on the Mississippi, the returns from which were to be enormous. HISTORY OF FRANCE. BY CHARLOTTE M. YONGE. NEW YORK: D. APPLETON AND COMPANY 1, 3, AND 5 BOND STREET. 1882. http://mirror.pacific.net.au/gutenberg/1/7/2/8/17287/17287-h/17287-h.htm ================ They have been received with rapture by a nation who know how to appreciate every testimony which the United States have given to them of their affection. /The Representatives of the French People composing the Committee of Public Safety of the National Convention, charged by the law of the 7th Fructidor with the direction of foreign relations, to the Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled/. /(October 21, 1794)/ in: James D. Richardson, A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents Section 1 (of 3) of Volume 10. 1902 [unclear where the translation comes from, if the original was sent in French] http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/gutenberg/1/4/5/8/14584/14584-h/14584-h.htm ================= There is a bondage which is worse to bear Than his who breathes, by roof, and floor, and wall, Pent in, a Tyrant's solitary Thrall: 'Tis his who walks about in the open air, One of a Nation who, henceforth, must wear Their fetters in their Souls. For who could be, Who, even the best, in such condition, free From self-reproach, reproach which he must share With Human Nature? Never be it ours To see the Sun how brightly it will shine, And know that noble Feelings, manly Powers, Instead of gathering strength must droop and pine, And Earth with all her pleasant fruits and flowers Fade, and participate in Man's decline. (October, 1803) Poems in Two Volumes, Volume 1 / Wordsworth, William, 1770-1850 http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/pwdw110.htm ============================ > And, I assume, not "has" but "have" in Britain? > My gut feeling is that this is not correct for contemporary British English for nations -- they take singular agreement, and so does the noun _nation_. Except if you're really talking about sports teams ("England have fired manager after failing to qualify for cup" and the like). Companies are a different matter: they are usually referred to with plural verbs, though, so I'm less sure about what would happen with "a company who". Well let's look ... from the Guardian Unlimited archives ================ In line with this, as a director of a company who received funding from the Arts Council, I was initially asked to be on a consultation panel about arts council funding and told I would received a phone call to discuss this. [This is about a theatre company] Theatre blog reader comment http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/theatre/2007/06/the_olympics_killed_my_theatre.html#comment-549350 ================ Highly specialised IT and Technology company who specialise in data and networking and hosting solutions have a new role for a marketing manager to join them. [Job ad. Doesn't shock me at all for BrE. There are more in the jobs section.] http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/298318/marketing-manager-it-experts ================ Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union, said: " Not only has the voluntary sector been used as Trojan horse by the private sector, but the government has handed a large chunk of work to a firm which is failing and mired in controversy in Australia. The government is giving a green light to a company who we fear will try and circumvent TUPE regulations." [Article, business section] http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2175500,00.html ================ "Waterstone's is, after all, a bookseller, whose stock in trade is the purveying of opinion, not all of it palatable to those concerned. The action that has been taken so far bears more resemblance to the behaviour of an American fast-food chain than a company who deal in intellectual freedoms and the concerns of a pluralist liberal society." [Article, technology section] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/jan/12/books.newmedia ================ Still, rare in normal journalistic writing -- none of the above examples falls into that category. So let's look for contemporary BrE examples of "nation who": =============== Yet despite all this, New Zealand remain a magnificent rugby nation who are bound to win the World Cup again soon. [Sports blog comment -- this is the nation = team situation. Always plural in BrE. BTW, they did.] http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/09/15/its_now_or_never_for_new_zeala.html =============== While the strategy may differ, Moore's overarching political take on America remains the same and can be summarised thus: the American people are a decent and basically fair-minded nation who are either ill-informed or misinformed and certainly misled into behaving otherwise. [Article, film section -- plural agreement because of "people"] http://film.guardian.co.uk/interview/interviewpages/0,,1055562,00.html =============== As a nation who has destroyed more languages than any other, and along with them so many cultural nuances and aspirations, we have no right to judge the catalan wish for lingual self determination. [CIF reader comment] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/giles_tremlett/2006/06/small_earthquake_in_catalonia.html#comment-92241 =============== I didn't say that I agreed, merely that that is the likely response from a nation who is intent on gaining the technology and who won't acknowledge even a large reduction as being in good spirit [CIF reader comment] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/kate_hudson/2006/06/neither_independent_nor_a_dete.html#comment-96374 =============== etc. Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. Cheers, Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 00:32:39 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:32:39 +0100 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710262329.l9QI8poW015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? Chris Waigl who'd expect green and, well, blue ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 01:11:35 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:11:35 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710270058.l9QKf0Wp009656@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/26/2007 08:24 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > >> Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. >> > > And some from British sources. I see a mixed bag of singular and > plural, and one quote that used singular with "firm" and plural with > "company." Do I sense, from this small sample, a plurality for the > plural with "nation"? > > *Well yes, sure, but it's overwhelmingly singular in the contemporary sources except in BrE when "nation" is a metonymy for "national football/cricket/rugby/whatever team". Or of course in cases like "the X people are a nation who [+ plural verb]". (The firm/singular, company/plural example was from a quote that sounded as if it had been re-written quite a bit. I imagine the original spoken statement was a little muddled.) Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 Chris Waigl * ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 01:17:56 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:17:56 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710270112.l9QKf0dD009656@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Chris F Waigl wrote: > Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 > > Reading through those again, there *are* a few that use the plural when "nation" carries the principal sense of the sum of its people. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 27 01:01:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:01:03 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 08:49 PM, you wrote: >>Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": >>> >>>"Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, >>>nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the >>>pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. >>> >>>These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the >>>khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. >>Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? >> >>Chris Waigl >>who'd expect green and, well, blue >I used to wear a "loden coat" in elementary school (so my mother >always called it), and it was a kind of heavy olive-greenish brown >wool. But I agree that it's hard to imagine nautical blue as a shade >of brown. Well, wait 'til you receive your Eddie Bauer catalog -- yes, it's coming, along with all the other holiday season junk mail -- and tell me how well "nautical blue" (Let alone loden) has been rendered in its printing! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 27 00:58:28 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:58:28 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <4722852F.1000802@lascribe.net> Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 08:24 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. And some from British sources. I see a mixed bag of singular and plural, and one quote that used singular with "firm" and plural with "company." Do I sense, from this small sample, a plurality for the plural with "nation"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 27 00:49:45 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:49:45 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <47228727.1000704@lascribe.net> Message-ID: >Joel S. Berson wrote: >> From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": >> >>"Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, >>nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the >>pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. >> >>These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the >>khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. >> >Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? > >Chris Waigl >who'd expect green and, well, blue > I used to wear a "loden coat" in elementary school (so my mother always called it), and it was a kind of heavy olive-greenish brown wool. But I agree that it's hard to imagine nautical blue as a shade of brown. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Sat Oct 27 04:04:49 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 00:04:49 EDT Subject: "a nation who has ..."? Message-ID: Well, in that case it's "people" that's plural, not "nation." Rosemarie |||||||//////__ __ __ __ __ The domino effect at work. In a message dated 10/26/2007 9:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chris at LASCRIBE.NET writes: > *Well yes, sure, but it's overwhelmingly singular in the contemporary sources except in BrE when "nation" is a metonymy for "national football/cricket/rugby/whatever team". Or of course in cases like "the X people are a nation who [+ plural verb]". (The firm/singular, company/plural example was from a quote that sounded as if it had been re-written quite a bit. I imagine the original spoken statement was a little muddled.) Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 Chris Waigl * ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 27 12:13:20 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:13:20 -0400 Subject: wild hair/hare Message-ID: Kevin Drum, on his "Political Animal" blog on cbsnews.com, tries to figure out whether the idiom is "wild hair (up one's butt)" or "wild hare": http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/26/politics/animal/main3418643.shtml He quotes, among others, "word maven Doug Wilson", with a link to a 2002 ADS-L thread. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 27 12:16:47 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:16:47 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" Message-ID: An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28vajayjay.html?ex=1351224000&en=63ef009ac890309a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss Geoff Nunberg and John McWhorter are quoted. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 27 15:43:22 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:43:22 -0400 Subject: wild hair/hare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since 2002, more information has appeared (bigger databases) and I am no longer so mystified. I think I may have been helped by a correspondent on this but I can't remember for sure, so thanks to whomever if so! Of course the problem with "wild hair" is that a simple hair, wild or tame, in the anus or rectum would not be distressing or exceptional. The metaphor is less confusing, however, if one notes that "a wild hair" is/was used for "a troublesome erratic hair, ingrown, inflamed, and/or irritating [e.g. to the eye]". I've never heard the expression in this sense and it may be regional or obsolescent for all I know. At Google Books, from 1922, referring to an apical [tooth] abscess (Smith, _Heart Affections_): <> Here (and in similar examples IIRC) "wild hair" = "[?ingrown] hair associated with a boil or abscess". Now it's easy to see how "have a wild hair" might mean "be irritated/agitated/etc." In particular "He can't sit still; he must have a wild hair on his ass/butt [i.e., either buttock or perianal region]" is perfectly understandable. I speculate that the specific use of "up" however MAY be gratuitous rudeness, since "up one's ass" would usually (AFAIK) refer to an internal location where there are no hairs growing (AFAIK). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 17:26:04 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:26:04 -0400 Subject: southmore In-Reply-To: <200709242256.l8OGunnJ007473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another thought on "southmore" (unless someone's already said it and I've forgotten). The other three "year names" are interpretable: "junior" and "senior" are used in all sorts of contexts, and "freshman" has recognizeable parts, which can be reasonably interpreted together as "someone who is new here". Only "sophomore" is opaque, and that imbalance may add motivation for "southmore". m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 27 17:37:33 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710120036.l9BNViLA013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml in the article's sixth paragraph: Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what they'd seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that they saw gruesome things." stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ (the other) doug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 18:52:55 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:52:55 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" In-Reply-To: <200710250801.l9P09lgR026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not the "power's that be"? m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 18:57:17 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:57:17 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710260210.l9PMobF1026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, James Harbeck wrote: > > > I don't think four-sided dice (number tetrahedra) roll all that well, > but they seem to serve the purpose for many role-playing games. Gamers toss them so they turn in the air. m a m, who raised his children with D&D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:03:04 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:03:04 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251945.l9PH7bYx026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What's wrong with being a storyteller? Or does being French make it dirty? m a m On 10/25/07, Bradley A. Esparza wrote: > > This reminds me of the choice I make when I decide to use "difficult" > instead of "hard". I find myself constantly catching myself so I won't > possibly be taken as a raconteur. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:04:40 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:04:40 -0400 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" In-Reply-To: <200710261436.l9QAnGc6015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If she's from there, she may have heard it back home and not (or not much) anywhere else. m a m On 10/26/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > > At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few > hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early > 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? > > Any information will be appreciated! > > --Charlie > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:08:14 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:08:14 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710271737.l9RAkVOr020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". m a m On 10/27/07, Doug Harris wrote: > > 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st > ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml > in the article's sixth paragraph: > Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, > asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew > their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what > they'd > seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I > assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that > they saw gruesome things." > > stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ > > (the other) doug > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 27 20:04:42 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:04:42 +0000 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: Certain Victorian folks are reported to have hated the word "leg" so much that the put stockings on their pianos There seems to be a straightforward Freudian explanation for such lexical aversions, nor is it therefore surprising that people would independently be afflicted with identical aversions. I'd expect "luggage" to be rarer than "moist." . ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 25, 2007 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The m-word At 10:35 PM -0400 10/25/07, Kate Daly wrote: >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, >the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I >think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other >people to throw. >-Kate Except that as we've now learned from the Language Log postings (not to mention the existence of the "I HATE the word MOIST" facebook group), she's hardly alone in this. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 27 21:52:08 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710271908.l9RAkVTG025953@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes it does, but if you check the other definition (pimp -- v. (by senior medical personnel) to badger a student doctor with medical questions (as a teaching method).) . . . it kinda sorta fits that (quoted) usage. (the other) doug Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". m a m On 10/27/07, Doug Harris wrote: > > 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st > ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml > in the article's sixth paragraph: > Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, > asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew > their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what > they'd > seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I > assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that > they saw gruesome things." > > stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ > > (the other) doug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 28 01:41:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:41:18 -0700 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710270033.l9QAkRwZ015119@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess "nautical blue" is like "navy blue" but less militaristic. I've been aware of "loden" for at least a dozen years, probably more like twenty. As long as "khaki" is back again, I find a U. S. Marine memoir of WWI, published in 1920, actually refers to the 1916 Marine Corps uniform as "khaki." The official name was "forest green," closer to "sage-green," as I see it. JL Chris F Waigl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Chris F Waigl Subject: Re: The latest in khaki ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel S. Berson wrote: > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? Chris Waigl who'd expect green and, well, blue ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 04:26:41 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:26:41 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" In-Reply-To: <200710271226.l9RAkVE9020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks, I reckon. -Wilson On 10/27/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by > "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28vajayjay.html?ex=1351224000&en=63ef009ac890309a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss > > Geoff Nunberg and John McWhorter are quoted. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 28 04:52:05 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:52:05 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <04fd01c818e3$9fc4d960$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: >Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". I agree. But I can't be sure. As for "pimping" during medical training, here is the classic reference, I think, from JAMA: http://www.neonatology.org/pearls/pimping.html [JAMA is a *major* medical journal.] I think in this context "pimp [someone]" = "ask pimp questions of [someone]". A "pimp question" is a difficult and potentially embarrassing question, perhaps involving arcane or extraneous lore (at least in the opinion of the pimpee). Why "pimp"? There is of course an acronym etymology available ("put in my place") ... probably just as reliable as other acronym etymologies. My casual speculation is that "pimp question" = "question asked by a pimp" ... or "pimp [someone]" = "behave like a pimp toward [someone]" ... with "pimp" in its older [figurative] sense of "despicable person" or so. But I'm not at all sure of this. The notion that the "pimp question" is asked in order to educate the questioner is not at all plausible according to my (limited and not necessarily representative) experience. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 28 05:15:06 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:15:06 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710272005.l9RAkVVR020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just by the way, my wife, a 37-year-old Canadian university administrator, has no problem with the word "moist" (she says she dislikes "dry" more, in fact). And she says people like the students who proclaim it to be offensive to women make her feel embarrassed to be a woman. Making snowballs. Yep. I like that one. Gonna use it myself sometime, for sure. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 06:19:02 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:19:02 -0400 Subject: Cheese Fries (Chili Cheese F ries; Jalape=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= Cheese Fries) Message-ID: I just did a long posting on "cheese fries." The Food Timeline (Jan. 2007 post below) couldn't find "chili cheese fries" before 1988, but I found a December 1986 citation using Google News Archives. Maybe someone with FACTIVA can do better. ... Robb Walsh's latest book calls jalapeño cheese fries a "quintessential Texas side dish." I'll be sure to include them in a Texas Food Museum that doesn't exist. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cheese_fries_chili_cheese_fries_jalapeno_cheese_fries/ ... Entry from October 28, 2007 Cheese Fries (Chili Cheese Fries; Jalapeño Cheese Fries) The origin of "cheese fries" (cheese added to french fries0 is in dispute. The dish is claimed by both Philadelphia and Chicago, dating from the early 1980s. Hostess distributed frozen "cheese fries" as early as 1975. Texas-style ingredients were soon added, making "chili cheese fries" and "jalapeño cheese fries." Texas food author Robb Walsh calls jalapeño cheese fries a "quintessential Texas side dish." Wikipedia: French Fries French fries (North America; sometimes also uncapitalized as "french fries"[1] or simply "fries"[2]), or chips (United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland, and most Commonwealth nations), are pieces of potato that have been cut into batons and deep-fried. (...) United States In the United States, the most popular condiment for fries is ketchup. Mustard is another common condiment, with malt vinegar mainly available at retaurants which serve fish and chips. Fries are sometimes coated with melted cheese, called cheese fries. This can be in combination with chili, making chili cheese fries. Variations of cheese fries include fries covered with Cheez Whiz, mozzarella, Swiss cheese, or garlic and cheese fries (cheese with garlic mayonnaise). 14 May 1975, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 39 ad: 150 GR. PKG. HOSTESS CHEESE FRIES 38c 4 December 1975, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 55 ad: HOSTESS SNACKS 300 GRAM PKG. Cheese Fries of Cheese Sticks .68 17 September 1975, Appleton (WI) Post-Crescent, "Football Strategy at Home" by Lillian Mackesy, pg. C1, col. 1: CHEESE FRIES 1 cups fried potato snack sticks 1 tablespoon vegetable oil 2 tablespoons grated Parmesan cheese 1 teaspoon onion powder 1 teaspoon parsley flakes Place potato snacks in center of 18-inch square of aluminum foil. Heat oven to 350 degrees. Sprinkle snacks with oil and toss gently to cover. Add remaining ingredients and mix until well-coated. Fold edges of foil loosely around fries. Place on rack in preheated oven (or on rack over hot coals on outdoor grill) and heat for about 10 to 15 minutes, until heated through. Toss once or twice during heating. Recipe makes about 4 servings to go with hamburgers or other meats. 9 July 1980, Elyria (OH) Chronicle-Telegram, pg. C6 ad: Suncrisp - Butter, Onion, Cheese FRIES 20-oz. Pack 79c 14 July 1981, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 3A, pg. 8: Tube Steak Palace, 2643 Hirshoff, Rolling Meadows. (...) ...onion rings, desserts and cheese fries. 9 May 1983, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, pg. 10A, col. 5: Crafts, a video arcade and a variety of foods from hot dogs and cheese fries to cotton candy will be available. 12 March 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. A1: ...night to get some cheese fries at the Dip Stix restaurant on the Boardwalk. (Atlantic City—ed.) 30 August 1984, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Junk Food of the '80s: CHeese edges out salt and sugar as top flavoring" by Polly Hurst and Steven Fried (Philadelphia Magazine): In the past, junk food was flavored with one of two things: salt or sugar, and lots of it. The junk food of the '80s, however, is made with (or covered by) cheese. Nachos and cheese fries are among the latest entries in the cheese-junk list, which already included Cheetos, Snack Mate Cheese Spreads (those canned things that make flowers if applied correctly), cheese-filled Combos, nacho-cheese Doritos, Tostitos, Burritos—where will it all end? 5 September 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, "The Cornucopia of New Eats on the Streets" by Dick Polman, pg. E1: Those ex-loyalists who once bought his hot dogs are Now gorging themselves ON everything imaginable - shrimp, flounder, cheese fries, souvlaki, spinach pie, ... 7 October 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, "The Maligned Cafeteria" by Marilynn Marter, pg. M1: The foods that got highest marks from the teens included cheese fries,... 7 March 1985, Atlanta (GA) Journal and Constitution, "Chili's could become a second home for burger fanatics," pg. A7: There are plenty of appetizers: Super nachos ($4.95); cheese fries ($2.95);... 15 August 1986, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 6, pg. 9, col. 3: For 20 cents extra, you can have cheese fries. For these, the fries are squirted with a processed cheese sauce that just makes them soggy. 16 August 1985, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, "Pat's Steaks" by Glenn N. Kaup, pg. 42, col. 5: Along with sandwiches, the restaurants offer criss-cross fries and cheese fries. 10 December 1986, Los Angeles (CA) Daily News: Everyone you know goes," said Crismon, a Granada Hills resident who usually orders chili cheese fries at the shop. (Primo's Specialty Sandwich Shop—ed.) 8 March 1987, New York (NY) Times, "A Road Not Often Taken" (Jane & Michael Stern of "Road Food") by Marian Burros, pg. 312: THOSE WHO ASPIRE TO THE American version of beurre blanc and puff pastry don't want to hear about cheese fries and Coca-Cola cake. 8 September 1988, Miami (FL) Herald, "Joe BelAir's transports you to happier days; vinyl booths and chili dogs put you back in the '50s" by Alison Oresman, pg. 2E: ...cheese fries and chili fries are also available. 21 November 1988, Dallas (TX) Morning News: Fuddrucker's has introduced nachos and guacamole and prototype outlets are testing "chili cheese fries" and tacos. 31 August 1989, Atlanta (GA) Journal and Constitution, "Atlanta Couple's Dreams Light Up at Flamers Eatery" by Henrietta Spearman, pg. E6: Side orders range from regular french fries, Cajun fries, chili cheese fries, cheese fries, or fried mushrooms and onion rings priced from 99 cents to $1.29 1 September 1989, Sacramento (CA) , "Burgers so good they could kill you," pg. TK13: Murder Burger also offers something called ""cheese fries.'' (...) I would have liked to have tackled the chili cheese fries,... Google Groups: rec.food.restaurants Newsgroups: rec.food.restaurants From: h... at sp24.csrd.uiuc.edu (William Tsun-Yuk Hsu) Date: 11 Mar 91 22:41:31 GMT Local: Mon, Mar 11 1991 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Chicago restaurants There's a good burger place on the corner of Belmont and Sheffield. Try the guacamole and cheese fries. 15 March 1991, Chicago (IL) Sun-Times, "In thick or thin, they always stick together" by Pat Bruno, pg. 59: Ed Debevic's Short Orders Deluxe, 640 N. Wells (312-664-1707). White Castle Systems, numerous locations in the Chicago area (312-582-7373). While trying to separate three fries that were welded to each other by melted cheese, my wife announced: "Cheese fries were invented by Ed Debevic." "You do know that there is no such person as… 12 April 1991, Chicago (IL) Sun-Times, "Hearts melt for cheese fries" by Pat Bruno, pg. 53: Cheez! My column of March 15 on cheese fries must have been a whiz, as readers really took to writing about their favorites. My favorites: Gold Coast Dogs on North State, Ed Debevic's Short Orders Deluxe on North Wells and White Castle all around town. Google Groups: soc.sulture.canada Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada From: P... at psuvm.psu.edu (Paul D. Shan) Date: 18 Jul 91 12:29:25 GMT Local: Thurs, Jul 18 1991 8:29 am Subject: Re: Canadianisms? Gravy on fries is a semi-common question where I live (Central and/or Western Pennsylvania). What usually gets strange looks except in the place where I was introduced to it is Chili-Cheese Fries. When I get these looks it's usually that they've heard of Chili fries and Cheese fries, but not both. Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: wmar... at STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) Date: 24 Jul 91 15:31:12 GMT Local: Wed, Jul 24 1991 11:31 am Subject: Regional foods: Horseshoe Sandwich Cheese fries (French fries with cheese sauce on them) are fairly common, I believe. This is pretty much in the same line except it puts the sandwich itself under the cheese fries. As I recall, the horseshoe sandwich came in hamburger, ham, and other versions (maybe roast beef? not sure...). Google Groups: ne.food Newsgroups: ne.food From: filip... at husc9.harvard.edu (David Filippi) Date: 27 Feb 92 18:13:35 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 27 1992 2:13 pm Subject: Chili cheese fries. In my homeland of Southern California, it was my frequent habit to stop at Top's for their transcendent chili-doused boxes of french fries with lots of yellow and white cheese on top. Alas! Stranded in Boston, my cholesterol level is slowly decreasing to normal levels… does anyone know where I could get some chili cheese fries? 24 April 1992, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Jons Grille" review by Lanette Causey: Chili cheese fries were freshly sizzled and smothered in good quality Chili, grated Cheddar, chopped onions and fierce jalapeno slices. Google Books The Low-Fat Fast Food Guide by Jamie Pope and Martin Katahn New York, NY: W. W. Norton & Company 1993 (revised edition, 2000) Pg. 43: chili cheese fries (Del Taco—ed.) 16 January 1993, (Baton Rouge, LA): "I can't get anybody up here who can do jalapeno cheese fries like George's restaurant. They try, but It's just not the same." Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: "Kris" Date: 20 Jan 2007 09:42:24 -0800 Local: Sat, Jan 20 2007 1:42 pm Subject: Re: anyone know when/where chili cheese fries originated? Well, I have no actual proof on this, but at the time I always heard that a hot dog place by Michigan State University started the phenomenon. I think they were referring to Top Dog, which isn't around anymore. But during my college years, it was great to go there at 2 a.m. after a party… Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: "Doc Martian" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:34:24 GMT Local: Sun, Jan 21 2007 1:34 am Subject: Re: anyone know when/where chili cheese fries originated? From: Foodtimel... at aol.com To: docmart... at verizon.net Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 1:44 PM Subject: Re: chili cheese fries Doc, The earliest print reference we find for "chili cheese fries" is from 1988. Although the restaurant was based in Chicago, the founders were from Cincinnati and very much taken with their city's chili tradition. "The Near North eatery is named Coney Dog, but has nothing to do with New York. It serves Cincinnati-style chili, but it doesn't call it that on the menu. Confused? No, problem. The selections are very simple. They've got chili and they've got chili dogs.Craig McCoy and Randy Reynolds, a pair of out-of-towners who graduated from Northwestern University in 1984, returned to open a tiny, fast-food place in a storefront in April. With a fondness for Cincinnati-style chili, but the smarts not to call it that for fear of offending Chicagoans, the dish is billed as "chili spaghetti," served 2-way ($2.35), 3-way ($2.60), 4-way ($2.85) or 5-way ($2.95)...McCoy and Reynolds make their own french fries from Idaho potatoes. They are plump and not greasy. But don't stop. Coney Dog has cheese fries ($1.50) to beat all others. The fries are covered with melted Cheddar cheese-the real kind-sour cream, onions and jalapeno peppers. The cheapeaters' favorite, however, was the order of chili cheese fries ($1.80), everything that can come with the cheese fries plus a smothering of chili." --- CONEY DOG 'CHILI SPAGHETTI' STILL TASTY BY ANY OTHER NAME; [NORTH SPORTS FINAL, CN Edition] Manuel Galvan. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 25, 1988. pg. 36 According to the U.S. Patent and Trademark database (http://www.uspto.gov) "Chili cheese fries" are not a registered trademark. We sent a note to Skyline asking when they introduced this item to their menu. Hopefully, they will respond. North American fast-food dishes combining cheese, fries & other toppings dates back at least to 1957. About French Canadian Poutine (c. 1957): http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-1371-8372/life_society/canadian_food/cli We will be in touch when we hear back from Skyline. ----------------------------------- Lynne Olver (IACP), editor The Food Timeline http://www.foodtimeline.org Serious Eats Cook the Book: Jalapeño Cheese Fries Posted by Ed Levine, May 10, 2007 at 5:00 PM Here's the penultimate recipe of the week from Robb Walsh's Texas Cowboy Cookbook. This is a "quintessential Texas side dish," Robb says, "that combines classic American fries with Tex-Mex chile con queso and jalapeños." Make sure to bookmark this recipe so you have it handy; you can serve it alongside tomorrow's tenderloin. And, remember, if you'd like to lasso yourself a copy of the book that these fries come from, throw your hat into our cookbook giveaway contest. Jalapeño Cheese Fries - serves 4 - Ingredients 2 pounds russet potatoes 2 1/2 cups peanut oil 2 jalapeños, seeded and sliced 1 onion, sliced Salt 1 cup Chile con Queso (recipe follows), or sub in one 15-ounce jar of Cheez Whiz 1/4 cup pickled jalapeño slices (...) Chile con Queso - makes about 2 cups - Ingredients 1 pound Velveeta cheese, cut into 1-inch cubes 1 can Ro-tel tomatoes ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 06:31:45 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:31:45 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710280141.l9RAkVir020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From my years in the Army in Germany, I recall that lodenjackets made by the company that invented the article of clothing, known in Britspeak as a "duffel coat," I think, came in a single color called by the PX "loden green." I'm not sure what the color was called in German, "lodengruen"? Even by the late 'Fifties, English was already the language of choice. GI's called it "the magic language," because, for all practical purposes, it could be used anywhere with anyone. Except in France, of course. -Wilson On 10/27/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The latest in khaki > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I guess "nautical blue" is like "navy blue" but less militaristic. I've been aware of "loden" for at least a dozen years, probably more like twenty. > > As long as "khaki" is back again, I find a U. S. Marine memoir of WWI, published in 1920, actually refers to the 1916 Marine Corps uniform as "khaki." The official name was "forest green," closer to "sage-green," as I see it. > > JL > > Chris F Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris F Waigl > Subject: Re: The latest in khaki > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Joel S. Berson wrote: > > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > > > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? > > Chris Waigl > who'd expect green and, well, blue > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 12:32:59 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:32:59 -0400 Subject: "Wham, Bam, Thank You, Ma'am" Message-ID: I believe this expression was discussed previously on this list. Here is earlier evidence, passed on to me by Jay Dillon: Thomas Heggen _Mister Roberts: A play_ (1948), page 105: GERHART: Well, there goes the liberty. That sure was a wham-bam-thank you, ma'am! [. . .] But, by God, it was worth it. That liberty was worth anything! Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 12:39:21 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:39:21 -0400 Subject: "Intelligent Design" Message-ID: Below is a section of the Wikipedia article on "Intelligent Design," which adds to the information in OED for the modern usage: Prior to the publication of the book Of Pandas and People in 1989, the words "intelligent design" had been used on several occasions as a descriptive phrase in contexts that are unrelated to the modern use of the term. The phrase "intelligent design" can be found in an 1847 issue of Scientific American, in an 1850 book by Patrick Edward Dove,[49] and even in a 1861 letter of Charles Darwin.[50] The words are also used in an address to the 1873 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science by Paleyite botanist George James Allman: No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible — in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design.[51] The phrase can be found again in Humanism, a 1903 book by one of the founders of classical pragmatism, F.C.S. Schiller: "It will not be possible to rule out the supposition that the process of evolution may be guided by an intelligent design." A derivative of the phrase appears in the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1967) in the article on the Teleological argument for the existence of God : "Stated most succinctly, the argument runs: The world exhibits teleological order (design, adaptation). Therefore, it was produced by an intelligent designer." The phrases "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" were used in a 1979 book Chance or Design? by James Horigan[52] and the phrase "intelligent design" was used in a 1982 speech by Sir Fred Hoyle in his promotion of panspermia.[53] The modern use of the words "intelligent design", as a term intended to describe a field of inquiry, began after the Supreme Court of the United States, in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), ruled that creationism is unconstitutional in public school science curricula. A Discovery Institute report says that Charles Thaxton, editor of Of Pandas and People, had picked the phrase up from a NASA scientist, and thought "That's just what I need, it's a good engineering term."[54] In drafts of the book over one hundred uses of the root word "creation", such as "creationism" and "creation science", were changed, almost without exception, to intelligent design.[16] In June 1988 Thaxton held a conference titled Sources of Information Content in DNA in Tacoma, Washington,[44] and in December decided to use the label "intelligent design" for his new creationist movement.[55] Stephen C. Meyer was at the conference, and later recalled that "the term came up".[45] The book Of Pandas ! and People was published in 1989, and is considered to be the first intelligent design book,[56][23] as well as the first place where the phrase "intelligent design" appeared in its present use.[57] Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 28 15:14:23 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus Message-ID: "What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." The Caucus, a political group that originally met in Boston, later also known as the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as Caucus. Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 [sic: this should read 1788; Gordon was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon (Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no 'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word cau´-cau-as´u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough 'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England; but there appears to be no direct evidence." Another unpersuasive proposal appears in the American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, drinking vessel." OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, 1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to James Warren (Papers of John Adams, Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree unanimously to push for the same Man." The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers ...in New England By John Eliot (of the Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to assemble in that part of town. It has the effect to awake the _north wind_, and stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this body of men the most important matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of these memoirs has been assured by some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an appeal was signed "The Caucus." That according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is said to have been involved in the Boston Tea Party. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 28 16:41:59 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:41:59 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071028111423.2sazmrw6s8gwogw0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: "Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724" is right -- the (modern) historians say that nothing can be found written about Elisha Cooke Jr.'s 1720s caucus before around the 1770s. But I don't think it is correct to write "later also known as the North End Caucus" -- not the same group. Cooke's faction and strength had dissipated around 1740, there were generally good relations between the Assembly and the governor between 1745 and 1760, and the pre-Revolutionary caucus was I would think a new group, perhaps adopting the word from the most recent and well-remembered period of strong opposition to the royal government. John Adams referred to the 1740 land bank crisis as "rais[ing] a greater ferment in the province than the stamp-act did". (Cooke died in 1737, but the paper currency issue between the Assembly and the governor ran through the 1720s and 1730s before reaching its climax in 1740.) It is perhaps interesting that Adams is the writer of the earliest OED citation for "caucus". Stephen Goranson writes >The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." How does "north end" give a clue to the origin of "caucus"? Also, if it is a reference to the pre-Revolutionary "North End Caucus", that was later than Cooke's. Is there evidence that Cooke's too was a North End group? (Probably answerable from the literature about Cooke, but I don't have sources at hand.) BTW, Dr. J. H. Trumbull's 1872 suggestion of possible derivation from an Algonkin word (saying that "Indian names were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England") sounds plausible to me! (Trumbull was a historian of Connecticut, and also wrote about the "blue laws".) Joel At 10/28/2007 11:14 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >"What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." > >The Caucus, a political group that originally >met in Boston, later also known as >the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as >Caucus. > >Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: >origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; >quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 >[sic: this should read 1788; Gordon >was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon (Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no >'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, >as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption >of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the >more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence >beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the >date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. >Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word >cau´-cau-as´u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough >'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to >talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, >promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the >general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names >were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England; but there >appears to be no direct evidence." Another >unpersuasive proposal appears in the >American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, >drinking vessel." > >OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for >the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, >1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to >James Warren (Papers of John Adams, >Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake >Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree >unanimously to push for the same Man." > >The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." > >A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers >...in New England By John Eliot (of the Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 >p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. >Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that >influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to >assemble in that part of town. It has the effect >to awake the _north wind_, and >stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this >body of men the most important >matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of >these memoirs has been assured by >some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided >by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." > >In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an >appeal was signed "The Caucus." That >according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in >the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is >said to have been involved in the >Boston Tea Party. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 18:20:04 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:20:04 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710281642.l9SGgB4c023438@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 12:41 PM -0400 10/28/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: >"Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before >1724" is right -- the (modern) historians say >that nothing can be found written about Elisha >Cooke Jr.'s 1720s caucus before around the 1770s. Not to be confused, I assume, with the Elisha Cook Jr. who helped make the world safe for the new (non-catamite) meaning of "gunsel", as described here in threads of the past. (See also now the THE DREADED LINGUISTICS SECTION, PLACED LAST SO THAT THOSE WHO DISLIKE IT CAN AVOID IT" at the site http://www.triviafirst.com/2006_05_03.html, although without the detailed consideration of the derivation of the first vowel in "gunsel" via German and Yiddish that we attempted to provide.) Now if we just find a connection between caucuses and gunsels... LH >But I don't think it is correct to write "later >also known as the North End Caucus" -- not the >same group. Cooke's faction and strength had >dissipated around 1740, there were generally good >relations between the Assembly and the governor >between 1745 and 1760, and the pre-Revolutionary >caucus was I would think a new group, perhaps >adopting the word from the most recent and >well-remembered period of strong opposition to the royal government. > >John Adams referred to the 1740 land bank crisis >as "rais[ing] a greater ferment in the province >than the stamp-act did". (Cooke died in 1737, >but the paper currency issue between the Assembly >and the governor ran through the 1720s and 1730s >before reaching its climax in 1740.) It is >perhaps interesting that Adams is the writer of >the earliest OED citation for "caucus". > >Stephen Goranson writes >>The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >>while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." > >How does "north end" give a clue to the origin of >"caucus"? Also, if it is a reference to the >pre-Revolutionary "North End Caucus", that was >later than Cooke's. Is there evidence that >Cooke's too was a North End group? (Probably >answerable from the literature about Cooke, but I don't have sources at hand.) > >BTW, Dr. J. H. Trumbull's 1872 suggestion of >possible derivation from an Algonkin word (saying that "Indian names >were commonly taken by clubs and secret >associations in New England") sounds plausible to >me! (Trumbull was a historian of Connecticut, >and also wrote about the "blue laws".) > >Joel > >At 10/28/2007 11:14 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>"What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." >> >>The Caucus, a political group that originally >>met in Boston, later also known as >>the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as >>Caucus. >> >>Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: >>origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; >>quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 >>[sic: this should read 1788; Gordon >>was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon >>(Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no >>'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, >>as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption >>of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the >>more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence >>beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the >>date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. >>Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. >>Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word >>cau´-cau-as´u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough >>'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to >>talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, >>promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the >>general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names >>were commonly taken by clubs and secret >>associations in New England; but there >>appears to be no direct evidence." Another >>unpersuasive proposal appears in the >>American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, >>drinking vessel." >> >>OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for >>the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, >>1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to >>James Warren (Papers of John Adams, >>Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake >>Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree >>unanimously to push for the same Man." >> >>The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >>while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." >> >>A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers >>...in New England By John Eliot (of the >>Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 >>p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. >>Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that >>influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to >>assemble in that part of town. It has the effect >>to awake the _north wind_, and >>stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this >>body of men the most important >>matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of >>these memoirs has been assured by >>some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided >>by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." >> >>In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an >>appeal was signed "The Caucus." That >>according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in >>the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is >>said to have been involved in the >>Boston Tea Party. >> >>Stephen Goranson >>http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 18:46:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:46:34 -0400 Subject: "Remember the a la mode!" (1958) Message-ID: O.T.: Sorry if the previous "cheese fries" subject headline didn't work out, but I tempted fate by adding the word ""jalapeño." I won't use "à la mode" for this headline...I added Lone Star Steakhouse's "Amarillo Cheese Fries" to my entry. They're too popular to pass up. ... ... "Remember the a la mode!" is another fun one and is a good excuse to add the "pie a la mode" antedating to my website...I would correct the Wikipedia, but I can't link to my own page, even if it's been peer-reviewed by American Dialect Society and food scholars...I just added "Pinky Friedman" (cocktail) and "Texas Bloody Mary" to my website. The "bloody mary" entry was especially painful, as it reminds me that I usually don't receive any credit or any compensation for my work. ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie Fruit pies may be served with a scoop of ice cream, a style known in North America as à la mode. Apple pie is a traditional choice, though any pie with sweet fillings may be served à la mode. This pie is thought to have been popularized in the mid-1890s in the United States. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/remember_the_a_la_mode_pie_a_la_mode/ ... Entry from October 28, 2007 "Remember the à la mode!" (pie à la mode) "Remember the Alamo!" (or, as some insist, "Remember Alamo!") was the famous Texas cry at the victorious Battle of San Jacinto on April 21, 1836. The inevitable "Remember the à la mode!" joke arrived much later. The American Dairy Association created a "Remember the A La Mode!" month (in August 1959) to urge people to eat more ice cream with their pie. Pie à la mode (French for "according to the fashion") is pie with ice cream (usually vanilla ice cream or cream). The pie is usually apple pie. The dish appears to have been first served at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. There is a legend that Charles Watson Townsend first invented "pie à la mode" at the Cambridge Hotel in Cambridge, New York, and later at New York City's Delmonico's restaurant in the mid-1890s (1896 is sometimes given as the date), but this seems unlikely and is not supported by historical evidence. What's Cooking America Apple Pie a la Mode – In the United States, pie a la mode refers to pie (usually apple pie) served with a scoop of ice cream (usually vanilla) on top. 1890s - According to the historians of the Cambridge Hotel in Washington County New York, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, dined regularly at the Cambridge Hotel during the mid 1890's. Cambridge Hotel (Cambridge, NY) The History of Pie a la Mode (Reprint from Sealtest Magazine) With Apple Pie a la Mode holding such a special niche in the taste of the American public, it is appropriate at this time that we turn to historians long enough to record for prosperity the origin of this delectable delicacy of the day. We have it that the late Professor Charles Watson Townsend, who lived alone in a Main Street apartment during his later years and dined regularly at the Hotel Cambridge, now known as the Cambridge Hotel, was wholly responsible for the blessed business. One day in the mid 90's, Professor Townsend was seated for dinner at a table when the late Mrs. Berry Hall observed that he was eating ice cream with his apple pie. Just like that she named it "Pie a la Mode", and we often wondered why, and thereby brought enduring fame to Professor Townsend and the Hotel Cambridge. Shortly thereafter the Professor visited New York City, taking with him a yen for his favorite dessert new name and all. At the fashionable Delmonico's he nonchalantly ordered Pie a la Mode and when the waiter stated that he never heard of such a thing the Professor expressed a great astonishment. "Do you mean to tell me that so famous an eating place as Delmonico's has never heard of Pie a la Mode, when the Hotel Cambridge, up in the village of Cambridge, NY serves it every day? Call the manager at once, I demand as good service here as I get in Cambridge." The manager came running, and the Professor repeated his remarks. "Delmonico's never intends that any other restaurant shall get ahead of us" said the manager and forthwith ordered that Pie a la Mode be featured on the menu every day. A newspaperman representing the New York Sun was seated at a nearby table and overheard the conversation. The next day the Sun carried a feature story of the incident and it was picked up by many other newspapers. In no time at all, Pie a la Mode became standard on menus all over the country. (Oxford English Dictionary) à la mode, phr. Cookery. Of a dessert: served with ice-cream. U.S. 1903 Everybody's Mag. VIII. 6/2 Tea and buns,..apple pie à la mode and chocolate were the most serious menus. 1928 Delineator Cook Bk. 734 'Pie a la mode' is pie served with ice-cream. 1949 L. P. DE GOUY Pie Book 65 Apple Pie… Serve warm or cold, with cheese, a la mode or with whipped cream. 26 April 1893, St. Paul Daily News, pg. 3, col. 5: CULINARY SNAP. Chicagoans Indignant at Probable High Prices for World's Fair Pie. (...) Cold meats were raised from 30 to 35 cents, sandwiches (chicken) from 15 to 20, and salads (chicken) from 40 to 50 cents, and apple pie, a la mode, was raised 20 cents—10 cents for apple pie and ten cents for a la mode. 13 May 1893, Chicago (IL) Daily Inter Ocean, pg. 1: Electric Restaurant (C.) World's Fair Grounds, Jackson Park. Dinner Served from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. May 11, 1893 (...) Apple pie a la mode...20 12 June 1895, Warren (PA) Evening Democrat, pg. 3, col. 3: PIE A LA MODE, 10 Cents. (...)—Chicago Times-Herald. 4 August 1895, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 34: He's got a glass of beer and a great big piece of pie with a chunk of ice cream on top of it. Pie a la mode, I believe they call it. 6 April 1896, Duluth (MN) News-Tribune, "Desserts," pg. 4: Apple pie a la mode—Stew one quart of ripe apples, pared and cut in quarters, putting them through a sieve; add one tablespoonful of butter and beat to a cream. Line a pieplate with feather paste, fill with the apple cream and bake 20 minutes in an even-heated oven. Spread over the apple a thick meringue made of the whites of the eggs and tablespoonfuls of pulverized sugar beaten stiffly and not flavored. Brown slightly in the oven and serve wit ha large spoonful of whipped cream stirred with candied cherries and flavored with almond. 3 May 1896, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 51 ad: Pie a la Mode...5c 21 May 1936, New York (NY) Times, pg. 23: CHARLES W. TOWNSEND Cambridge, N. Y., Man Credited With Originating Pie a la Mode. CAMBRIDGE, Mass., May 20 (AP).—Charles Watson Townsend, one-time concert pianist, who, tradition has it, inadvertently originated pie a la mode here fifty-two years ago, died today in Mary McClellan Hospital. His age was 87. As the story goes, he amazed waiters in a local hotel by asking for ice cream on his pie. He like it so well he ordered it on another occasion in Delmonico's restaurant in New York. The restaurant then added the dessert to its menu. The Hotel Cambridge here specializes in the dish and points out the table at which Townsend was dining when he created it. 27 May 1936, Frederick (MD News, pg. 4, col. 1 editorial: PIE A LA MODE. Surely no list of great American inventors is complete without the name of Charles Watson Townsend, father of pie a la mode, who has passed away in New York Stste at a great age. It is to be regretted that the original creation, due to its perishable nature, is not available for the Smithsonian Institution or some kindred agency. We believe the luncheon clubs and all kinds of citizens who gather at noon in an atmosphere of good fellowship and chicken croquettes followed by apple pie with a top dressing of ice cream, will see the propriety of paying tribute by a moment of silence at their next meetings to the memory of a benefactor. To the best of our knowledge, it was never officially settled whether pie a la mode is played with the spoon or fork or both, though common preference seems to lean to the fork alone. In any event, millions of his fellow men are indebted to Mr. Townsend for lending flavor—usually vanilla—to their daily lives. 11 June 1958, Mason City (Iowa) Globe-Gazette, pg. 5, col. 4: OUCH! MADISON, Wis. (AP)—Printed under the pie list on menus at a well-known Madison (not Texas) steakhouse: "Remember the Ala-mode!" 5 December 1958, Sheboygan (WI) Press, pg. 12, col. 2: In August, you'll be urged to "Remember the A La Mode." (To the strains of Dixie.) Here Mr. Moo, the ADA mascot, goes western and you learn that ice cream goes with anything from brats to "heavenly cranberry pie." (American Dairy Association story—ed.) 14 August 1959, Newark (OH) Advocate, pg. 21, col. 7 ad: Remember the A-La Mode Ice Cream Make's America's Best Desserts Even Better (...) CUMMINS' ICE CREAM and DAIRY 20 August 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Times, pg. 49 ad: Ice Cream Remember the A La Mode Knolle All Jersey 3 Qts. for 99c 8 January 1960, Amarillo (TX) Globe-Times, pg. 12, col. 5: Why go to Bali or the Congo when here you can attend in comparative safety a "Domestic Rabbit Week" or "Remember A La Mode Month"? 29 August 1963, Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada), pg. 7, cols. 3-5: Pie a la Mode Invention Of American Restaurants CAMBRIDGE, N.Y. (UPI)—Pie a la mode is as American as baseball or the Virginia reel but its origin eludes those not aware of this small community in the Adirondack foothill. In 1896, a music teacher, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, regularly concluded his dinners at the Hotel Cambridge with the combination of apple pie and ice cream. When Mrs. Berry Hall, an employee at the hotel first saw the creation, she gasped, "pie a la mode." The name was acceptable enough to Townsend, who wasn't fussy as long as his favorite dessert was served. Later that year at fashionable Delmonico's restaurant in New York City, Townsend requested "his" dessert. When the waiter disclaimed knowledge of "pie a la mode," Townsend was astonished and then indignant. He called the manager and described how a little hotel in Cambridge, N.Y. regularly served the dish. With Delmonico's reputation at stake, the flustered manager ordered "pie a la mode" featured on the daily menu. A reporter from the old New York Sun overheard the conversation and the emergence of "pie a la mode" was told in a feature story in the daily the next day. Other newspapers across the nation followed suit and the dessert was soon a household standby. Why did the phrase "a la mode" become so quickly associated with a mound of ice cream on a slice of pie? A Wagner College history professor noted that "a la mode" was used widely in the 1890's to describe anything extremely fashionable. A few persons are aware of the origin of the term. Walter Gann, present owner of the Hotel Cambridge, said his sister was listening to a phone-in-the-answer quiz program in New York when the dessert's birthplace was asked. She telephones within three minutes only to be told some 200 listeners had already called in the correct answer. Gann credits much of Cambridge's national notoriety to Roy Shoet, who has been the radio and television announcer at nearby Saratoga Raceway for many years. During the winter months, Shoet broadcast from California and frequently mentioned the birthplace of "pie a la mode" on a network. In addition, Cambridge is a fashionable resort which had catered for many years to well-traveled guests who spread its reputation throughout the globe. Google Books Remember the a la mode! Riddles and Puns compiled by Charles Keller Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall 1983 Google Groups: alt.tv.game-shows Newsgroups: alt.tv.game-shows From: "Jason Wuthrich" Date: 1999/11/08 Subject: Re: JS ABC Millionaire 11/7 > For $300: > In the battle cry datings from the 1830s, what are Texans told to remember? > He says The Alamo for $300. > For $500: > What French phrase has come to mean "served with ice cream"? > He chooses "a la mode" for $500. REMEMBER THE A LA MODE! (...) And all my opinions (except the a la mode joke) are mine alone. Google Books Angels Laughing: The Very Best Spiritual and Religious Humor compiled and written by Thomas Haka Trafford Publishing Pg. 224: The Baptist minister in Texas ordered ice cream with his pie for dessert because he wanted to "remember the a la mode." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 28 21:18:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: "Blue laws 1755 antedates 1762; "blue law" (singular) 1792 not in OED2 Message-ID: (1) Well, Fred Shapiro, it's not Paul Scholes' assertion of a quotation from Smith's phantom 1767 "History of New York", but it may be (see Note) earlier than the "earliest" 1762 quotation! "Blue laws," 1755: "Hartford, (in Connecticut) May 12. Since the happy Revolution, and the Revival of our old Blue Laws, we have the Pleasure to see the Lord's Work go on with Success; all different Persuasions do now again pay our Ministers, which is said to be a great Help to many of our Towns in the back Settlements." New-York Mercury, 1755 March 3, 1/3 {EAN]. NOTE: My eye of suspicion having been poked by the phrase "Since the happy Revolution" and by a Hartford dateline of May in a March NY paper, and wondering what revolution there was in New York in 1755 (some constitutional crisis, or "the" Revolution?), I looked further into this issue. The "blue laws" item is preceded at a distance by a headline "The New-York Gazette. May, 20th, *1775*", and there are a few more items on pages 1 and 2 dated May or 1775. I browsed further, but did not see anything blatant that would place the contents in 1775 versus 1755; a closer reading might reveal something. As to the masthead, it is Number 134; No. 133 is dated Feb. 24, 1755; No. 13[5?] is dated March 10, 1755; No. 136 is dated March 17, 1755. EAN says the NY Mercury was published from Aug. 31, 1752 to Jan. 25, 1768 (after which its title changed), as does the Harvard catalog. If so, the 1775 dates in my issue must be incorrect. Perhaps I have here, in the spirit of the season, a ghoulish, Googlish tale. But I think not; the 1755 date seems to be genuine. I have no idea where the May 1775 dates come from. Perhaps I should scroll through the microfilm. (2) "Blue law", singular, not in OED2. "He therefore hoped the house would not accept the report then under consideration; but that they would gratify the very respectable town of Boston in its request, and permit a bill to be brought in for repealing this unsocial, illiberal, unconstitutional, rigid blue Law." ("Speech of Mr. Gardiner in the General Court, on the subject of a Theatre.") Essex Journal, 1792 Feb. 8, 4/3 [EAN]. (3) An early "blue laws", interdates 1762 (not in OED2) -- 1781 S. Peters Hist. Connecticut. They declare that a more unrighteous edict is not among their Blue Laws. Pennsylvania Ledger, 1778 March 11, 3/3 [EAN]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 28 22:25:00 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:25:00 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? Message-ID: At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey+parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 shows an 1890 cite. Comments? Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 22:48:37 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:48:37 -0400 Subject: "Blue Laws" in 1755 Message-ID: Joel, Absolutely fascinating. I have long been aware of this hit in Early American Newspapers/America's Historical Newspapers, but I had assumed it was a misdated newspaper because there are so many 1775 dates in it. But looking at the page for a few minutes, it has dawned on me that much of this newspaper issue is a dream sequence -- the writer, writing in 1755, is dreaming about a future 1775 newspaper issue. The "Revolution" referred to is some imaginary British revolution, not the real American Revolution of 1775. The article two articles before the one mentioning _blue laws_ explicitly says that it is describing a dream newspaper issue. Although I would hope that the OED will check the original paper if it is available, or at least the microform, there seems every reason to believe that this is a genuine 1755 occurrence of _blue laws_. Well done, Joel! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Blue laws 1755 antedates 1762; "blue law" (singular) 1792 not in OED2 (1) Well, Fred Shapiro, it's not Paul Scholes' assertion of a quotation from Smith's phantom 1767 "History of New York", but it may be (see Note) earlier than the "earliest" 1762 quotation! "Blue laws," 1755: "Hartford, (in Connecticut) May 12. Since the happy Revolution, and the Revival of our old Blue Laws, we have the Pleasure to see the Lord's Work go on with Success; all different Persuasions do now again pay our Ministers, which is said to be a great Help to many of our Towns in the back Settlements." New-York Mercury, 1755 March 3, 1/3 {EAN]. NOTE: My eye of suspicion having been poked by the phrase "Since the happy Revolution" and by a Hartford dateline of May in a March NY paper, and wondering what revolution there was in New York in 1755 (some constitutional crisis, or "the" Revolution?), I looked further into this issue. The "blue laws" item is preceded at a distance by a headline "The New-York Gazette. May, 20th, *1775*", and there are a few more items on pages 1 and 2 dated May or 1775. I browsed further, but did not see anything blatant that would place the contents in 1775 versus 1755; a closer reading might reveal something. As to the masthead, it is Number 134; No. 133 is dated Feb. 24, 1755; No. 13[5?] is dated March 10, 1755; No. 136 is dated March 17, 1755. EAN says the NY Mercury was published from Aug. 31, 1752 to Jan. 25, 1768 (after which its title changed), as does the Harvard catalog. If so, the 1775 dates in my issue must be incorrect. Perhaps I have here, in the spirit of the season, a ghoulish, Googlish tale. But I think not; the 1755 date seems to be genuine. I have no idea where the May 1775 dates come from. Perhaps I should scroll through the microfilm. (2) "Blue law", singular, not in OED2. "He therefore hoped the house would not accept the report then under consideration; but that they would gratify the very respectable town of Boston in its request, and permit a bill to be brought in for repealing this unsocial, illiberal, unconstitutional, rigid blue Law." ("Speech of Mr. Gardiner in the General Court, on the subject of a Theatre.") Essex Journal, 1792 Feb. 8, 4/3 [EAN]. (3) An early "blue laws", interdates 1762 (not in OED2) -- 1781 S. Peters Hist. Connecticut. They declare that a more unrighteous edict is not among their Blue Laws. Pennsylvania Ledger, 1778 March 11, 3/3 [EAN]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Oct 28 23:02:16 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:02:16 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? In-Reply-To: <1c6f01c819b1$6157f800$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2007, at 18:25, Sam Clements wrote: > At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, > supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey > +parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 shows an 1890 cite. > > Comments? I saw that last week and mentioned it in a podcast. It seems to check out, if you go back page by page, making sure there are no breaks and that the page numbers are consecutive. It seems to conform to the table of contents, too. The only way to be sure, though, will be by checking the printed version. It doesn't seem to be one of the books that is also at the U. of Michigan Making of America site--that's the school where Google got the book. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 28 23:11:56 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:11:56 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? In-Reply-To: <1c6f01c819b1$6157f800$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: >At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, >supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. > >http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey+parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 >shows an 1890 cite. > >Comments? Looks OK to me. I guess it's found from 1890. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 29 07:12:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:12:00 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" Message-ID: For Gerald Cohen and whoever else is interested...If Corpus Christi were to use "Windy City," I still wouldn't get in the papers down here. ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_City,_Texas Missouri City is a city located in the U.S. state of Texas within the Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown metropolitan area. The city is mostly in Fort Bend County with a small portion within Harris County. As of the 2000 U.S. Census, the city had a total population of 52,913 (though a 2004 estimate placed the population at 62,570). ... ... http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071011_jj_missouricityshowmecity.15eb14bd4.html Missouri City to be known as 'Show Me' city 03:35 PM CDT on Thursday, October 11, 2007 KHOU.com staff report Missouri City wants to get out from the shadows of Houston and Sugar Land. So, it will now be called the "Show Me" city after the state it was named after. The city will also get a new logo to go along with that slogan. Officials say they asked residents how best to improve the city's image. Most voted against changing Missouri City's name. The new slogan and logo will be phased in over the next year ... ... http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071016_tnt_missouricity.178d79c05.html Missouri City gets a new logo 05:26 PM CDT on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 KHOU.com staff report Missouri City has a new logo. The logo was approved Monday night. It's all a part of a new image campaign that also includes the slogan, "The Show Me City." ... ... http://www.fortbendnow.com/opinion/3484/why-couldnt-citizens-have-come-up-with-mo-city-slogan Opinion/Analysis Why Couldn't Citizens Have Come Up With Mo. City Slogan? Oct 25, 2007, 12 08 PM I have a comment about Missouri City's new slogan of "Show Me". In the mid- 1890s it is said that a mining town in Colorado had to use miners from Missouri due to a strike. These miners were not familiar to Colorado methods of mining and required lots of instruction. Pit boses began saying "That man is from Missouri, he doesnt know anything, you will have to show him. Its said that this is where the show me state came from. Sounds like ineptness is associated with the" show me state",, guess our city council finally got it right at least where they are concerned anyway. Why couldn't the citizens been allowed to have input with a contest to come up with a slogan and logo.. or is it that this council doesn't want any input because if citizens become involved , then questions begin to be asked and council must come up with some answers. Just keep 'em dumb and stupid I guess. David Whythe Missouri City ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 11:40:57 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:40:57 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071028111423.2sazmrw6s8gwogw0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed "The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") And he omitted the N.B. section following the signature. Apparently we now have the spellings Caucus, Caucuss (1776 mentioned yesterday), and Caucas (this is not the only appearance of the latter). The appeal is in the Boston Evening Post and is available in America's Historical Newspapers. My previous message made no mention of, and no claim about, Elisha Cooke Jr. The slight misdating in the OED Caucus etymology perhaps followed the similar mistake in An American Glossary By Richard Hopwood Thornton page 154. More of the biography of Joseph Warren in John Eliot, 1809, I suggest, ma be, for those interested in this word, worth reading. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 29 12:13:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:13:30 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" In-Reply-To: <200710290712.l9SArKPW004599@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Ineptness"? What's happened to "ineptitude" and "unaptness"? -Wilson On 10/29/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For Gerald Cohen and whoever else is interested...If Corpus Christi > were to use "Windy City," I still wouldn't get in the papers down > here. > ... > ... > ... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_City,_Texas > Missouri City is a city located in the U.S. state of Texas within the > Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown metropolitan area. The city is mostly in > Fort Bend County with a small portion within Harris County. As of the > 2000 U.S. Census, the city had a total population of 52,913 (though a > 2004 estimate placed the population at 62,570). > ... > ... > http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071011_jj_missouricityshowmecity.15eb14bd4.html > Missouri City to be known as 'Show Me' city > > 03:35 PM CDT on Thursday, October 11, 2007 > > KHOU.com staff report > > Missouri City wants to get out from the shadows of Houston and Sugar Land. > > So, it will now be called the "Show Me" city after the state it was > named after. > > The city will also get a new logo to go along with that slogan. > > Officials say they asked residents how best to improve the city's image. > > Most voted against changing Missouri City's name. > > The new slogan and logo will be phased in over the next year > ... > ... > http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071016_tnt_missouricity.178d79c05.html > > Missouri City gets a new logo > > 05:26 PM CDT on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 > > KHOU.com staff report > Missouri City has a new logo. > > The logo was approved Monday night. > > It's all a part of a new image campaign that also includes the slogan, > "The Show Me City." > ... > ... > http://www.fortbendnow.com/opinion/3484/why-couldnt-citizens-have-come-up-with-mo-city-slogan > Opinion/Analysis > Why Couldn't Citizens Have Come Up With Mo. City Slogan? > Oct 25, 2007, 12 08 PM > > > I have a comment about Missouri City's new slogan of "Show Me". In the > mid- 1890s it is said that a mining town in Colorado had to use miners > from Missouri due to a strike. These miners were not familiar to > Colorado methods of mining and required lots of instruction. Pit boses > began saying "That man is from Missouri, he doesnt know anything, you > will have to show him. Its said that this is where the show me state > came from. > > Sounds like ineptness is associated with the" show me state",, guess > our city council finally got it right at least where they are > concerned anyway. > > Why couldn't the citizens been allowed to have input with a contest to > come up with a slogan and logo.. or is it that this council doesn't > want any input because if citizens become involved , then questions > begin to be asked and council must come up with some answers. > > Just keep 'em dumb and stupid I guess. > > David Whythe > Missouri City > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 29 14:45:37 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:45:37 -0700 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Rosemarie wrote: > If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this > could be > considered an actual eggcorn: > > << SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came > across > one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: > "Residential > hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. > Garages, > basements, addicts." > > --Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll another flapping case, but it's hard to work out the semantics. a comment on the ecdb has drug addict >> drug attic: Commentary by david toccafondi , 2005/02/15 at 6:59 pm drug addict >> drug attic I’ve heard people say this for years, but only recently started noticing it in print: “many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a drug attic” I’m not a drug attic..i just need a puff ----- attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Mon Oct 29 15:03:16 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:03:16 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291445.l9TAlAea013770@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Alternatively. . . I'm not a drug attic, I just have bats in my belfry. (the other) doug drug addict >> drug attic I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started noticing it in print: "many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a drug attic" I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff ----- attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 15:02:36 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:02:36 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071029074057.5kugm0ryf40sow4o@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 07:40 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United >States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], >which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a >Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 >when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed >"The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") The possible plural is intriguing, along with the "as". But might it not be a collective noun, as in "the committee"? And one year earlier John Adams had spelt it "caucus". Are the newspaper "caucas"s (and the others you found) just a not-unusual 18th c. variable spelling? Or have the editors of the Adams _Diary_ normalized *his* spelling of one year earlier? >And he omitted the N.B. section following the signature. Apparently >we now have the spellings Caucus, Caucuss (1776 mentioned >yesterday), and Caucas (this is not the only appearance of the latter). Do some of the other "caucas"s also suggest a plural? >The appeal is in the Boston Evening >Post and is available in America's Historical Newspapers. > >My previous message made no mention of, and no claim about, Elisha Cooke Jr. True; I mentioned Cooke because his 1720's party is referred to as a "caucus" also. But my question was really whether "north end" suggests anything about the etymology. >The slight misdating in the OED Caucus etymology perhaps followed the similar >mistake in An American Glossary By Richard Hopwood Thornton page 154. Do you mean the 1788 misdating of Gordon as 1774? Since the quotations include Gordon and date it 1788, I wonder whether the reference in the etymology means rather that Gordon said (in 1788) that he couldn't obtain a satisfactory explanation of the name in 1774. (Did he ask Adams??) >More of the biography of Joseph Warren in John Eliot, 1809, I suggest, ma be, >for those interested in this word, worth reading. Thanks. I have an interest in the Boston Caucus -- meaning the 1720s group -- and will look there. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:14:43 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:14:43 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <1951FC22-9659-43BF-984B-49114108D02C@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:45 AM -0700 10/29/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Rosemarie wrote: > >>If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this >>could be >>considered an actual eggcorn: >> >><< SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came >>across >>one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: >>"Residential >>hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. >>Garages, >>basements, addicts." >> >>--Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll > >another flapping case, but it's hard to work out the semantics. a >comment on the ecdb has drug addict >> drug attic: > >Commentary by david toccafondi , 2005/02/15 at 6:59 pm > >drug addict >> drug attic > >I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started >noticing it in print: >"many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a >drug attic" > >I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff > Better to be a drug attic than a drug cellar. At least you're higher. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:27:38 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:27:38 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: E.g., another "caucas" spelling appears in Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements Paper: Boston Evening-Post, published as Boston Evening Post.; Date: 02-14-1763; Issue: 1432; Page: [3]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [America's Historical Newspapers]. This is the same month and year of the OED earliest quote, from the diary of John Adams, (and the newspaper publisher explained that it was to be published last week). ...to determine whether it be agreeable to "OUR SIDE" [dagger or cross sign].... [dagger or cross sign footnote;] Caucas. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:29:24 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:29:24 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291503.l9TAkugX011453@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If /t/ and /d/ are flapped (as they almost always are in AmerEng) and the final /kt/ is simplified (as it would be in many varieties), the pronunciation could have been the source of the reanalysis in print, but how could we have been sure of it in speech since they are homophonous? Somebody says /aeDIk/ for "addict" and someone else hears "attic." dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Doug Harris >Subject: Re: This is almost an eggcorn >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Alternatively. . . >I'm not a drug attic, I just have bats in my belfry. >(the other) doug > >drug addict >> drug attic > >I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started >noticing it in print: >"many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a >drug attic" > >I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff > >----- > >attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English 15C Morrill Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-353-4736 preston at msu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 15:54:25 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:54:25 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 07:40 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United >States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], >which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a >Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 >when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed >"The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") On page 7, footnote 13, Dallinger's discussion of the word origin is very similar to the OED's (except he comes down on the side of "caulkers"). Dallinger writes "The deriviation of the word _caucus_, which first appeared about 1724 in Massachusetts, is still in doubt." Too bad he -- nor anyone else -- has identified *where* it appeared about 1724! (Stephen, have you looked in Early American Imprints also?) Those, however, appear to be the only words Dallinger utters about the 1720s, except for a very brief and general (and undated) statement about the first "party lines" being the court and popular parties (also p. 7). His discussion of the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus is for the pre-Revolutionary period. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 16:03:13 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:03:13 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Life and Times of Joseph Warren By Richard Frothingham page 50 note 1: "In the records of one of these caucuses, the word is spelt caucos ("Siege of Boston," 30). In the "Boston Gazette" of 1760 are the following sentences: "Nothing of the least significance was rransacted at a late meeting of the New and Grand Corcas."-- "Votes are to be given away by the delicate hands of the New and Grand Corcas." If the same group (as appears), an antedating. Sure enough (perhaps an outsider view, perhaps spelling from oral account): Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements Paper: Boston Gazette, published as The Boston Gazette, and Country Journal; Date: 05-05-1760; Issue: 266; Page: Supplement [1]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts: [italics ignored] Whereas it is reported, that certain Persons, of the Modern Air and Complexion, to the Number of Twelve at least, have divers Times of late been known to combine together, and are called by the Name of the New and Grand Corcas, tho' of declared Principles directly opposite to all that have heretofore been known: And whereas it is vehemently suspected, by some, that their Design is nothing less, than totally to overthrow the ancient Constitution of our Town-Meetings, as being popular and mobbish... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Oct 29 16:14:39 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:14:39 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to figure. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:29:24 -0400 >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >If /t/ and /d/ are flapped (as they almost always are in AmerEng) and the final /kt/ is simplified (as it would be in many varieties), the pronunciation could have been the source of the reanalysis in print, but how could we have been sure of it in speech since they are homophonous? Somebody says /aeDIk/ for "addict" and someone else hears "attic." > >dInIs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 17:06:07 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:06:07 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071029120313.0uj5jivzwgc0ksgk@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 12:03 PM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >According to Life and Times of Joseph Warren By Richard Frothingham >page 50 note >1: "In the records of one of these caucuses, the word is spelt caucos >("Siege of >Boston," 30). In the "Boston Gazette" of 1760 are the following sentences: >"Nothing of the least significance was rransacted at a late meeting of the New >and Grand Corcas."-- "Votes are to be given away by the delicate hands of the >New and Grand Corcas." > >If the same group (as appears), an antedating. > >Sure enough (perhaps an outsider view, perhaps spelling from oral account): >Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements >Paper: Boston Gazette, published as The Boston Gazette, and Country Journal; >Date: 05-05-1760; Issue: 266; Page: Supplement [1]; Location: Boston, >Massachusetts: [italics ignored] > >Whereas it is reported, that certain Persons, of the Modern Air and >Complexion, >to the Number of Twelve at least, have divers Times of late been known to >combine together, and are called by the Name of the New and Grand Corcas, tho' >of declared Principles directly opposite to all that have heretofore been >known: And whereas it is vehemently suspected, by some, that their Design is >nothing less, than totally to overthrow the ancient Constitution of our >Town-Meetings, as being popular and mobbish... Good find! Now, I assume, we will start looking for "corca[s]" in the 1720s! And any relation to the West Indies "Caucus", which appears (appear?) in a few early Boston newspapers (1750s, if I remember correctly, when I came across them in EAN)? Or of the "Grand Corcas" to Grand Turk? (Just kidding; I am tentatively identifying the West Indies Caucus as another instance of 18th century idiosyncratic spelling, here for the Caicos.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 29 18:14:02 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:14:02 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251702.l9PAki0T026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... > > see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: > > ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html > > ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html > > ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > > (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word > MOIST!) > > these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" > "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among > women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now > taking it to be offensive to women. This thread (along with Mark's LL discussion) has now been picked up by Carol Lloyd's "Broadsheet" column on Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/?last_story=/mwt/broadsheet/2007/10/29/moist/ An excerpt: ----- Last week the moist conversation took on a new dimension when Charles Doyle at the University of Georgia posted to an academic language list-serve that his use of the word in a Shakespeare class had prompted several of his female college students to inform him (in an amused, not outraged way) that the M-word was offensive to women. According to professor Doyle, the women offered no explanation for the word's bad juju, but one male student suggested that it might have something to do with female sexual arousal. To which I offer the following comment: No, duh. Since then some posts have suggested that the moist embargo is yet another feminist absurdity (a theory too absurd to dignify with a response). But maybe the college students were not talking about the word per se, but about the professor's use of it. Doyle says he used the word to describe Egypt in "Antony and Cleopatra" -- and the association with women's sexual arousal "is not at all beside the point." So are these women squeamish about Shakespeare's (or Doyle's) bawdy vision, or do they actually believe the word that has sold Betty Crocker cake mixes for decades is now an obscenity? Either way, it's weird to imagine that in this era of happy-go-lucky explicitness, we could suddenly start getting offended in a college Shakespeare seminar and turning ordinary words into taboos. Is there a growing Victorianism lurking in our verbal closet? Or is it that since an open revulsion with the female body is no longer kosher, our disgust searches out substitute targets? ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Oct 29 20:58:51 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:58:51 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: I've been picking up mail from the web for several weeks now, since my own machine is still in the hands of the (I hope) merciful tech. Since I can't take time to open all of it, I've been mystified by the "m- word" thread. Now that I've looked at it, I'm still mystified. "Moist" has no particular bad connotations for me, but I suspect has been tainted by pernicious, insistent advertising that makes sweat seem bad. There are lots of lotions that are marketed as "moisturizers," making it seem a bit self-defeating........so what's new? AM Original Message: ----------------- From: Benjamin Zimmer bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:14:02 -0400 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: The m-word On 10/25/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... > > see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: > > ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html > > ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html > > ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > > (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word > MOIST!) > > these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" > "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among > women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now > taking it to be offensive to women. This thread (along with Mark's LL discussion) has now been picked up by Carol Lloyd's "Broadsheet" column on Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/?last_story=/mwt/broadsheet/2007/10/29/m oist/ An excerpt: ----- Last week the moist conversation took on a new dimension when Charles Doyle at the University of Georgia posted to an academic language list-serve that his use of the word in a Shakespeare class had prompted several of his female college students to inform him (in an amused, not outraged way) that the M-word was offensive to women. According to professor Doyle, the women offered no explanation for the word's bad juju, but one male student suggested that it might have something to do with female sexual arousal. To which I offer the following comment: No, duh. Since then some posts have suggested that the moist embargo is yet another feminist absurdity (a theory too absurd to dignify with a response). But maybe the college students were not talking about the word per se, but about the professor's use of it. Doyle says he used the word to describe Egypt in "Antony and Cleopatra" -- and the association with women's sexual arousal "is not at all beside the point." So are these women squeamish about Shakespeare's (or Doyle's) bawdy vision, or do they actually believe the word that has sold Betty Crocker cake mixes for decades is now an obscenity? Either way, it's weird to imagine that in this era of happy-go-lucky explicitness, we could suddenly start getting offended in a college Shakespeare seminar and turning ordinary words into taboos. Is there a growing Victorianism lurking in our verbal closet? Or is it that since an open revulsion with the female body is no longer kosher, our disgust searches out substitute targets? ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 02:23:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:23:24 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" Message-ID: Featured today on AOL is another "Ellen Across America" quiz. Ellen does this to torture me. I get less sympathy than her dog. ... I proved that this naval banquet was in 1900 (not 1899), and "show me" had been current since 1894. Missouri didn't send me a word of thanks, and the state's website is still wrong. ... ... http://ellen.aol.com/editorial/the+all-american+state+trivia+quiz Missouri's state nickname, the "Show Me State" is derived from: A. An unfortunate fishing incident B. A really (really) early fan of the movie "Jerry McGuire" C. The state's picture-book pretty natural landscape D. A certain stubborn congressman D ("Correct" answer -- B.P.) The nickname is ascribed to Rep. Willard Van Diver who, while a member of the U.S. House Committee on Naval Affairs, spoke at an 1899 naval banquet in Philadelphia. There, he declared, "I come from a country that raises corn and cotton, cockleburs and Democrats and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri, and you have got to show me.: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 30 03:27:23 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:27:23 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291614.l9TAlA6l013772@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on >the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to >figure. Hmm... "Hey, Maude, how d'you spell attic?" "Addict? A-d-d-i-c-t." Well, one possibility, anyway. I suppose the writer may have assumed that it was another case of one word with two fairly different meanings and learned the spelling of "addict"... If someone spelled it "addic" it could have been spell check, too. (And maybe the writer saw the spelling "relict" somewhere and thought from that that a silent t was reasonable on the end of this word.) Oh, where is a verbal Horation Kane when we need him, to discover the real answers so neatly with lucky bits of evidence and technology, all in an hour flat? James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 08:25:16 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:25:16 -0400 Subject: "Red or Green or Christmas?" (chile sauce) Message-ID: I just finished a long post on "Red or Green or Christmas?" The Dictionary of American Regional English doesn't have "Christmas" (1/2 red and 1/2 green chile sauce), a New Mexico regional food term? ... Any earlier "Christmas" will be appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/red_or_green_or_christmas_red_sauce_green_sauce_or_half_red_and_half_green/ ... Entry from October 30, 2007 "Red or Green (or Christmas)?" (red sauce, green sauce, or half-red and half-green chile sauce) "Red or green?" is the official state question of New Mexico. Really, it is. The "state question" was proposed in 1996 and finally signed by the governor in 1999. New Mexico is a major chile-producing state, and there are both red chile sauces and green chile sauces. The "red or green?" question is asked often in restaurants, and the state legislature thought that making it an "official state question" would boost tourism. Christmas is known for its red and green colors. In New Mexico restaurant lingo (that appears to have started in Santa Fe), "Christmas" means a plate of half-red and half-green chile sauces. The New Mexico terminology has spread to some other states of the Southwest, such as Arizona and Texas. Wikipedia: New Mexico State question* "Red or Green?" 1999 (*)The official state question refers to a question commonly heard at restaurants, where waiters will ask customers "red or green?" in reference to which kind of chili pepper or "chile sauce" the customers wants served with their meal. This type of "chile" is usually distinct from salsa, as the chile sauce is much finer and thicker and more commonly served with meals. Natives are more likely to refer to the chili sauce put on their meal as just plain "chile", and not as any form of "salsa" (which is usually reserved by natives in English for the salsa served with chips; everything else is just "chile"). If the diner wants both they can answer with, "Christmas" (or "Navidad" in Spanish), in reference to the two traditional colors of Christmas—Red and Green. Wikipedia: Cuisine of the Southwestern United States Southwestern cuisine is food styled after the rustic cooking of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, as well as parts of Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado. It comprises a fusion of recipes for things that might have been eaten by cowboys, Native Americans, and Mexicans throughout the post-Columbian era, however, there is a great diversity in this kind of cuisine within the above-mentioned states. Southwestern cuisine is heavily influenced by Mexican cuisine but often involves larger cuts of meat, and less use of tripe, brain, and other parts not considered as desirable in the United States. Like Mexican cuisine, it is also known for its use of spices (particularly the chile, or Chili pepper) and accompaniment with beans (frijoles), cooked in a variety of manners. Chili con carne, fajitas, certain kinds of chiles rellenos (stuffed chiles), and various steak-chile combinations are particularly well-known Southwestern foods. Note that "chili" generally refers to a thick stew or soup prepared with beans and meat, while "chile" refers to the peppers that grow in this region and have been eaten for thousands of years by the native people. Recently, several chains of casual dining restaurants specializing in Southwestern cuisine have become popular in the United States. New Mexico is known for its dedication to the chile (the official "state question" is "Red or green?", which refers to the preferred color of chiles), most notably the "hatch" chile. New Mexican cuisine New Mexican food is a type of regional cuisine originating in the U.S. state of New Mexico; it is a subset of Mexican-American cuisine. Although many New Mexican dishes are similar to Mexican and Tex-Mex offerings such as enchiladas and burritos, New Mexican food has a distinct style. The most important difference is the type of chile pepper used. [citation needed] New Mexico chiles comes in two varieties, referred to as either "green chile" or "red chile" depending on the stage of ripeness in which they were picked. Green chile is perhaps the defining ingredient of New Mexican food compared to neighboring styles, though heavier use of cilantro and relaxed use of cumin are also important. In the past few years, green chile has grown increasingly more common outside of New Mexico, and it is a popular ingredient in everything from enchiladas and burritos to cheeseburgers and bagels within the state's borders. (...) List of New Mexican culinary terms (...) Chile or chile sauce: A sauce made from red or green chiles by a variety of recipes, and served hot over many (perhaps any) New Mexican dish. Chile does not use vinegar, unlike most salsas, picantes and other hot sauces. Green chile is made with chopped roasted chiles, while red chile is made with chiles dried and ground to a powder. Thickeners like flour, and various spices are often added, especially ground cumin, coriander and oregano (none of these is usually added to a red chile sauce, and rarely would cumin or coriander show up in a traditional green sauce). Chile is one of the most definitive differences between New Mexican and other Mexican and Mexican-American cuisines. Mexican and Californian tend to use various specialized sauces for different dishes, while Tex-Mex leans toward the use of salsa picante and chili con carne (and even Cajun-style Louisiana hot sauce). New Mexican cuisine uses chile sauce as taco sauce, enchilada sauce, burrito sauce, etc. (though any given meal may use both red and green varieties for different dishes). A thicker version of green chile, with larger pieces of the plant, plus onions and other additions, is called green chile stew and is popular in Albuquerque-style New Mexican food; it is used the same way as green chile sauce, as a topping for virtually anything, including American dishes. The term "Christmas" is commonly used in New Mexico when both red and green chiles are used for one dish. Bill Richardson for President (May 24, 2007) Red or Blue State? Nah. Red or Green! Forget the standard political demographics and things like mixing religion with politics. In New Mexico, Christmas is celebrated every day - in fact, several times a day - in the halls of government, city plazas, schools, and people's homes. What am I talking about? "Red or Green?" - the official New Mexico State Question, the answer to which has recently been legislated to be: "Christmas," meaning both, please. Chile has been an important staple and source of pride going back hundreds of New Mexican years. The most well-known chiles come from the town of Hatch (everyone knows that!), where the long, slender spicy vegetables are harvested and celebrated. Every food in New Mexico comes smothered in chile. If Richardson becomes President, the White House Chef had better have this down! Albuquerque Living Red Or Green? If you dine in any Albuquerque restaurant serving New Mexican cuisine, be assured that you will be asked the question: "Red or Green?" What does it mean? Well, it reflects what can only be called a local obsession that has even influenced state legislation. In 1996 the New Mexico State Legislature passed a House Joint Memorial declaring "Red or Green?" the official state question. This refers to being asked whether one prefers red or green chile when ordering New Mexican cuisine. This measure was passed to signify the importance that the chile industry has on the economy of the state. In 2000 New Mexico produced 99,000 tons of chile valued at nearly 49 million dollars making it the number one cash crop in terms of sales in the state. the santa fe site Red or Green? Chile that is! (...) Hatch in southern New Mexico is where much of the New Mexico chili crop is grown. Hatch is called the Chile Capital of the world and has its annual Hatch Chile festival on Labor Day weekend. In New Mexico when ordering chile with your meal the chile is typically the Hatch Chile. The green ones are usually roasted and the red ones are dried before they are used in cooking. Remember this when asked red or green? Or Christmas? The green is hotter and the red is a more pungent but not so hot a taste. Christmas is both red and green for those of you who want to try both so you can make the decision as to what you like. New Mexico Chili Depending on the variety, growth and harvest conditions, "hotness" can vary. Your cook/waiter will know which is hotter. If you're the adventurous sort, ask for "Christmas"--a sample of red and green chile/chili served side-by-side. NPR: New Mexico: Chile Hot Spot Kitchen Window By Bonny Wolf New Mexico: Chile Hot Spot NPR.org, September 19, 2007 (...) There's even an official state question: Red or green? And if you can't decide if you want red chile or green chile, you may answer, "Christmas," and you'll get some of both. Green and red chiles are actually the same chiles at different life stages: either picked earlier when they're green, or later after they're left to turn red on the vine. 27 September 1987, New York (NY) Times, "Chiles: Pungent, Sweet and Rich" by Susan Benner, section XX, pg. 28: Verde or colorado (green or red), chile pods may be used fresh from the plant, but more often they are roasted. Then the green is peeled and the red usually dried and ground. Though native pods are sold green—farmers like to sell them this way since it minimizes the danger of loss from birds or hail or frost—their thin-walled wrinkled flesh is difficult to peel. Consequently, the chile of northern New Mexico rarely appears green in restaurants, and is better known for the richly flavored powders from the dried, roasted and ground red. 26 November 1989, New York (NY) Times, "Santa Fe's Spicy Cultural Mix" by Nancy Harmon Jenkins, pg. XX12: ...carne adobado, spicy pork, marinated in red chili paste before roasting, and everywhere a choice of red or green chili sauce as an accompaniment. (Just ask for "Christmas," said Sam Arnold, a food historian who has lived in Santa Fe for many years, if you want both.) (...) (Pg. XX24—ed.) ...in the Hotel La Fonda, to the breakfast burritos, lascivious concoctions of scrambled eggs, sausage or ham, green or red (or Christmas) chili and cheese, that are available in a number of local breakfast places. 16 December 1990, New York (NY) Times, "Salsas of the Southwest" by Jeanie Puleston Fleming, pg. XX6: During the tasting Mr. Raub (Chef Peter Raub of the Sante Fe School of Cooking—ed.) explained another fine point in salsa definitions: the difference between traditional salsa and traditional New Mexican red or green chili sauces. While New Mexican chili sauce is served hot and on top of dishes like enchiladas (half red and half green is known as Christmas), salsa is served separately and cold. Also, you taste the chili, the tomato, the cilantro in salsa, while in a sauce, one flavor—usually the chile—dominates. Google Books Jane Butel's Southwestern Kitchen by Jane Butel New York, NY: HP Books 1994 Pg. 103: Christmas Chicken In New Mexico, a new favorite is to sauce dishes with half red chile sauce and half green chile sauce. This custom is called "Christmas," when one orders in a restaurant. So, when I combined red and green chiles in one chicken dish, I decided Christmas was an appropriate name. (Much more on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 12:53:04 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:53:04 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" Message-ID: capitalism (OED 1854) 1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a plutocracy. Fred Shapiro --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 30 13:12:33 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:12:33 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF6F@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > capitalism (OED 1854) > > 1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library > Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more > together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and > money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a > plutocracy. PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 Category:News [19th Century British Library Newspapers] London, July 28 ... Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. SG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 13:30:06 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" Message-ID: linguistic (OED 1856) 1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Oct 30 12:40:18 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:40:18 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710300402.l9U3Gd38013770@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Charles Doyle > Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on > the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to > figure. How so? If the words are really and truly "merged", why wouldn't we expect some level of what looks a bit like free variation between them? I mean, it's not like one of the words is so amazingly obscure that nobody's seen it before--they both can show up on sweeps-week TV news teasers, for example. ("The danger in your attic!" "The story of an addict" and such.) -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 30 14:11:19 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:11:19 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: I wouldn't assume that the two words are "merged"--just that they sometimes get confused as to their spelling. In some dialects (like mine!), "addict" is pronounced the same as "attic," so it might easily be misspelled that way. But no pronunciation-spelling will produce "addict" for "attic," since there are no dialects (as far as I know) that would normally add a [-t] to the end of "attic." That's all I meant. (I'm not discounting other explanations for "addict" in place of "attic.") --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:40:18 -0400 >From: David Bowie > >From: Charles Doyle > >> Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to figure. > >How so? If the words are really and truly "merged", why wouldn't we expect some level of what looks a bit like free variation between them? I mean, it's not like one of the words is so amazingly obscure that nobody's seen it before--they both can show up on sweeps-week TV news teasers, for example. ("The danger in your attic!" "The story of an addict" and such.) > >-- >David Bowie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 30 15:19:42 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:19:42 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2007, at 08:16, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by > "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: Thanks to a site visitor, I was able to take this term back just a couple of years further than the first use given in the Times article--which Rosenbloom seems to have found on my site, though she said nothing about it. I have a Barry Popik sensation coming on. This is a song from a rather profane white rap geek who seems to be more of a goof than a pretender: 2000 MC Paul Barman _It’s Very Stimulating_ (Feb. 15) “MTV Get Off the Air, Part 2 (featuring Princess Superstar)”: Lady, one more complaint and I’ll shove a rape whistle up the Mrs. Vajajay. http://dtww.org/index.php/dictionary/va_jay_jay/ Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 15:41:23 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:41:23 -0700 Subject: More color confusion Message-ID: My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that very same catalogue! Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. So: credit but no free return shipping. As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? Could be any color. Probably gray. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 16:06:19 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:06:19 -0700 Subject: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News Message-ID: A few weeks ago, Fox ran a story about an irate gas-station owner in Texas who believes that Citgo profits Hugo Chavez more than any other brand. (My understanding is that gasoline is so thoroughly sloshed around by the time it gets to the pump that one can't discriminate.) He paid for a billboard with a picture of Chavez with a Citgo logo and the words "Don't Buy Gas From This Ass!" In covering this event at various points in the news day, Fox waffled about the word "ass." On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. At another time they showed the word on the board but wouldn't say it. A third time, they did say the word, though in a humorous, apologetic way. During the breakfast hour this a.m., however, a Fox entertainment correspondent said right out, "You know the old expression, 'You can't polish a turd'? Well, that certainly applies here." No bleep, no comment, nothing. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 16:26:00 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:26:00 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <171517.81225.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that >very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED needs to update their entry. LH P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots of different colors, so that doesn't help much. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 30 16:46:09 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:46:09 -0400 Subject: WOTY Season Message-ID: As the words-of-the-year season has begun with Webster's New World College Dictionary's "grass station" (), I'd like to remind everyone that we have a "media queries" page on the ADS web site: http://tinyurl.com/336gfu Any ADS member is invited to be a part of the media queries page. It usually results in a couple of calls a month, though more in December in January. If you'd like to be on it, please send me the following: Name Professional affiliation Very short bio: "I am an XXX for YYY Company/University with expertise in WWWW-ology, ZZZZ-ism, and TTTT-dom." Recent or relevant publications (a few, please, not dozens) Contact information: email, phone, mailing address. If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are correct. Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yevb00 at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 16:49:09 2007 From: yevb00 at GMAIL.COM (Evan Bradley) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:49:09 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5cc008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, "Pure topaz is transparent but is usually tinted by impurities; typical topaz is wine or straw-yellow. They may also be white, gray, green, blue, pink or reddish-yellow and transparent or translucent." I'm a guy, as well, and I don't keep up with the latest jewelry trends, but perhaps the blue has become more popular than the common yellow variety, thereby shifting the color associated with the gem name? Also according to wikipedia, "A recent trend in jewelry is the manufacture of topaz specimens that display iridescent colors, by applying a thin layer of titanium oxide via physical vapor deposition, this stone is then sold as 'mystic topaz'." If this catches on, maybe 'topaz' will come to mean iridescent ;) On 10/30/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: More color confusion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's > >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from > >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to > >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > >very same catalogue! > > > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is > >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has > >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. > >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? > >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > > > JL > > Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED > version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington > (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good > karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I > turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was > already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance > at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates > they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark > yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted > lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). > > Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED > needs to update their entry. > > LH > > P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots > of different colors, so that doesn't help much. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Tue Oct 30 16:53:40 2007 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael H Covarrubias) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:53:40 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5K7002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's a very hard stone. Typically either a dark yellow or a light blue. I'm not sure which is the more common color for the stone but November's stone is the yellow variety which probably influenced the typical intention. mhc > > At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's > >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from > >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to > >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > >very same catalogue! > > > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is > >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has > >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. > >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? > >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > > > JL > > > Laurence Horn wrote: > > Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED > version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington > (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good > karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I > turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was > already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance > at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates > they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark > yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted > lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). > > Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED > needs to update their entry. > > LH > > P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots > of different colors, so that doesn't help much. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ English Language & Linguistics Purdue University mcovarru at purdue.edu web.ics.purdue.edu/~mcovarru ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 30 16:52:43 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:43 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5K7002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've always known topaz to be yellowish, and I've certainly seen it up close and personal more than once. According to http://www.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/topaz/topaz.htm , "Topaz is a common gemstone that has been used for centuries in jewelry. Its golden brown to yellow color is classic but is confused with the less valuable citrine, which is sold under the name topaz. The blue topaz that is often confused with aquamarine is rarely natural and is produced by irradiating and then heating clear crystals." And on the side of the same page is a bunch of ads for blue topaz jewellery. Nary a sight of the yellowish kind. So apparently in some quarters, topaz is thought of as blue! News to me. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 16:55:25 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:55:25 -0700 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <171517.81225.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Topaz is colorless, but as with many colorless minerals, impurities can result in a variety of colors: "yellow, light shades of grey, green, red or blue", (Deer, Howie, and Zussman, 1966, An Introduction to the Rock-forming Minerals) However, it is likely that the gem you received is a colored variety of quartz, not topaz; in the very confusing (deceptive?) world of commercial jewelry, what a stone is called, especially a colored semi-precious stone, has more to do with appearance than mineralogy. It is rare to find genuine topaz in jewelry; although it is harder than quartz, it is easily cleaved or broken. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and > OED shows she's right. The color name has been in > use for at least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item > in "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was > a light blue, very close to turquoise. But > "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that > "topaz" really is light blue but no green as > turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has indeed > designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, > counts for nada. So: credit but no free return > shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda > rock, isn't it? Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 30 17:28:40 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:28:40 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: A<85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044BA227@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Sadly, the acknowledged Powers - the Fowler brothers, Professor Strunk, and E.B. White - are all deceased. It follows that the language necessarily is in a state of stasis, and no further changes or corrections are possible. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that > "tidal wave" > is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:06:07 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:06:07 -0700 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <914d6aa90710300949r2e558b41v401c9f9528095ca7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Evan Bradley wrote: > According to Wikipedia, "Pure topaz is transparent but is usually > tinted by impurities; typical topaz is wine or straw-yellow. They may > also be white, gray, green, blue, pink or reddish-yellow and > transparent or translucent." > > I'm a guy, as well, and I don't keep up with the latest jewelry > trends, but perhaps the blue has become more popular than the common > yellow variety, thereby shifting the color associated with the gem > name? if this is indeed a trend, the dictionaries are way behind on it. NOAD2 has the gemstone (in various colors), "a dark yellow color", and a tropical bird with a yellowish throat. AHD4 is similar, except that for the color name it refers you to "citrine" -- "pale-yellow; lemon colored" or a "translucent, yellow variety of quartz, often sold as topaz". some other gemstones come in a variety of colors, only one of which has been taken over for use as a color name. for the gemstone sapphire, wikipedia sez: The mineral corundum consists of pure aluminium oxide. Trace amounts of other elements such as iron, titanium and chromium give corundum their blue, yellow, pink, purple, orange or greenish color. Sapphire includes any gemstone quality varieties of the mineral corundum except the fully saturated red variety, which is instead known as ruby, and the pinkish-orange variety known as padparadscha. (padparadscha is news to me.) lots of webhits for "blue topaz". blue topaz (so labeled) is the december birthstone (with turquoise as an alternative), while yellow topaz (usually just labeled "topaz") is the november birthstone. in any case, there's some justification for "topaz" picking up an alternative meaning as a color word. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:35:22 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:35:22 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are > correct. my details are essentially correct, but i'd like to expand things somewhat: 1. after my title, add a line with my webpage: http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~zwicky 2. add to areas of expertise: formulaic language, literature giving advice on grammar, style, and usage 3. add to publications: numerous postings to Language Log [add link to LL] since 2003 4. my phone situation has changed. i used to work mostly at my private office, but since june 2006, stanford has supplied me with a real office, and i mostly work there or at home. so probably all three numbers should be listed: Stanford office: (650) 725-0023. Home: (650) 323-0753. Private office: (650) 843-0550. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:42:14 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:42:14 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 11:35 AM, i wrote: > On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > >> If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are >> correct. > > > my details are essentially correct... my apologies for sending this to the whole group rather than just to grant (the opposite of my usual error with "reply"). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:15:14 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:15:14 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <20071030091233.hpupjlpyoosc4gk0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the originator of capitalism: I. capitalism. 1816 Headline: From the Columbian. South America; Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; Location: New York, New York [EAN] Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of capitalism for their private advantage. [And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; Location: Maysville, Kentucky [EAN] General Carrera had used great exertions to put down _capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and to promote the general good. [So there! :-) ] II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, American Oracle of Liberty; Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; Location: Worcester, Massachusetts [The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. Joel At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > >>capitalism (OED 1854) >> >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a >>plutocracy. > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 >Category:News >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] >London, July 28 >... >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > >SG > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:20:43 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:20:43 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF72@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Fred and Stephen, May I use the names of your distinguished universities to urge Harvard to subscribe to 19th Century British Library Newspapers? (I've been told they're considering it, "but since it's on microfilm ..."). Joel At 10/30/2007 09:30 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library >Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our >readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, >warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:28:58 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:28:58 -0400 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <746263.88868.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. As my mother the high school English teacher told me, learn a new word every day. Thanks, JL. And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:47:26 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:47:26 -0400 Subject: "clapped-out" arrives at the front page of the NY Times Message-ID: "Clapped-out" has arrived at the front page of the NY Times (Tues. Oct. 30, 1/1): Cullen, a laconic fellow with disheveled hair and a cigarette sagging from his lips, is maneuvering a clapped-out Toyota down a suburban Johannesburg street. Another new WOTD for me, but I see that OED2 has it from 1946. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 23:13:37 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:13:37 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" Message-ID: 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk University, Boston. Not in OED. Why the cover-up? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 23:59:48 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:59:48 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" In-Reply-To: <314525.98419.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 4:13 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I > will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of > dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the > internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, > which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk > University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? "chiasmatic" for the anatomical term (relating to the optic chiasm (a)) and the cytological term (referring to cross-overs in genes) is in the OED (1997 revisions); AHD4 gives "chiasmal" and "chiasmic" as well as "chiasmatic" in these senses. for the adjective related to the literary figure chiasmus (or chiasm), most people seem to use "chiastic", and the OED has long had an entry for *that*. "chiasmatic crossings" borders on redundancy. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 23:59:54 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <200710302221.l9UML3To031697@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel, I'm not sure what you can use the university name for except to say that I as an individual employee of the university have found this database to have some value. Note that Yale has not subscribed to it, only gotten a trial, and it is questionable whether Yale will subscribe because it is very expensive (around $100,000, I believe). Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Linguistic" Fred and Stephen, May I use the names of your distinguished universities to urge Harvard to subscribe to 19th Century British Library Newspapers? (I've been told they're considering it, "but since it's on microfilm ..."). Joel At 10/30/2007 09:30 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library >Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our >readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, >warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 00:05:15 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:05:15 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <200710302215.l9UMFYUx028945@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel, Do we really know that the Argentine usage of "capitalism" has the modern meaning? I had seen the 1820 citation but not posted it because I figured it was a different term, deriving perhaps from "capital" in the sense that Buenos Aires is the capital of the country rather than from financial "capital." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the originator of capitalism: I. capitalism. 1816 Headline: From the Columbian. South America; Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; Location: New York, New York [EAN] Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of capitalism for their private advantage. [And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; Location: Maysville, Kentucky [EAN] General Carrera had used great exertions to put down _capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and to promote the general good. [So there! :-) ] II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, American Oracle of Liberty; Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; Location: Worcester, Massachusetts [The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. Joel At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > >>capitalism (OED 1854) >> >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a >>plutocracy. > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 >Category:News >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] >London, July 28 >... >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > >SG > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 00:27:46 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:27:46 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF8C@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 10/30/2007 07:59 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Joel, > >I'm not sure what you can use the university name for except to say >that I as an individual employee of the university have found this >database to have some value. Note that Yale has not subscribed to >it, only gotten a trial, and it is questionable whether Yale will >subscribe because it is very expensive (around $100,000, I believe). Fair use of Yale's name? "In his research, Fred Shapiro, editor of the excellent _Yale Book of Quotations_, has found Yale's access to the _19th Century British Library Newspapers_ database to be very valuable." (Just kidding; but I might say that I know that Yale and Duke have access to it.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 00:28:56 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:28:56 -0400 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grant, Could you please make the following updates to my media queries bio: Please change "Yale Dictionary of Quotations" to "Yale Book of Quotations" both places where it appears. Please change (Yale University Press, forthcoming, intended ...) to (Yale University Press, 2006, intended ...) Thanks, Fred # Fred R. Shapiro Associate Librarian for Collections and Access and Lecturer in Legal Research, Yale Law School; Editor, Yale Dictionary of Quotations Areas of Expertise: Origins of quotations, origins of words. Publications: # Yale Dictionary of Quotations (Yale University Press, forthcoming, intended to be the most authoritative quotation dictionary) # Stumpers!: Answers to Hundreds of Questions That Stumped the Experts (Random House, 1998) # Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations (Oxford University Press, 1993) Contact Fred Shapiro: fred.shapiro at yale.edu Office: (203) 432-4840 ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Grant Barrett [gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: WOTY Season As the words-of-the-year season has begun with Webster's New World College Dictionary's "grass station" (), I'd like to remind everyone that we have a "media queries" page on the ADS web site: http://tinyurl.com/336gfu Any ADS member is invited to be a part of the media queries page. It usually results in a couple of calls a month, though more in December in January. If you'd like to be on it, please send me the following: Name Professional affiliation Very short bio: "I am an XXX for YYY Company/University with expertise in WWWW-ology, ZZZZ-ism, and TTTT-dom." Recent or relevant publications (a few, please, not dozens) Contact information: email, phone, mailing address. If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are correct. Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 00:36:49 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:36:49 -0500 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710302313.l9UMKtRJ002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Chiasmatic -- is that a Chia pet in the throes of passion? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) > 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic > crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the > external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and > depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk > University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 00:47:41 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:47:41 -0500 Subject: More color confusion (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710301541.l9UFV3RG009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I may have mentioned this here before. I, like most guys I know, believe that 90% of colors encountered are either red, blue, green or beige, and can be described with those words plus the modifiers "light", "dark", and "kinda". (You'll note I left black off the list. No need for it. That suit isn't black, it's just dark blue. Whadda ya mean it's black? Stand over in that light over there. See?) My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). When we painted our hallway, we had to get color samples. I now realize the many "colors" that exist are just a ruse by Sherwin Williams. > > > My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED > shows she's right. The color name has been in use for at > least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in > "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was a light > blue, very close to turquoise. But "turquoise" was an > alternative color choice in that very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really > is light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The > manufacturer has indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for > nada. So: credit but no free return shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't > it? Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Oct 31 00:51:18 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:51:18 -0400 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710310037.l9UNj6S0009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Chiasmatic -- is that a Chia pet in the throes of passion? If it gets breathless, it's chiasthmatic. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 01:13:13 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:13:13 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF8D@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Fred, My impression from having quickly perused the two articles (1816, 1817) was that "capitalism" was a use of the monetary sense. To me the 1816 quote's "for their private advantage" and the 1817 quote's "general good" seems more likely to refer to economics than to the capital of the country. The 1917 article also speaks of trade and of the junta at Buenos Ayres appropriating to themselves the emoluments consequent on a revolution. ... Having gone back to the 1815 and 1817 articles now, one person might read "capitalism" as economic, while another might read it as referring to the centralized, dictatorial "junta" at Buenos Ayres. A historian of Argentina might be needed to clarify this. For the latter, http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/samerica/argentina18161870.html "The United Provinces of La Plata saw the emergence of two political groupings : the UNITARIANS favouring a strong centralist state, and the FEDERALISTS who advocated strong regional autonomy. As the regional political strongmen (CAUDILLOS) resisted attempts to impose central authority from Buenos Aires, the country found itself in a protracted civil war." (This I think is after 1817.) Joel At 10/30/2007 08:05 PM, you wrote: >Joel, > >Do we really know that the Argentine usage of "capitalism" has the >modern meaning? I had seen the 1820 citation but not posted it >because I figured it was a different term, deriving perhaps from >"capital" in the sense that Buenos Aires is the capital of the >country rather than from financial "capital." > >Fred Shapiro > > > >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:15 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" > >America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the >originator of capitalism: > >I. capitalism. 1816 > >Headline: From the Columbian. South America; >Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; >Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; >Location: New York, New York >[EAN] > >Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, >which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other >provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches >who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the >commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of >capitalism for their private advantage. > >[And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the >above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] > >Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; >Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; >Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; >Location: Maysville, Kentucky >[EAN] > >General Carrera had used great exertions to put down >_capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and >to promote the general good. > >[So there! :-) ] > >II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) > >Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General >of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; >Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, >American Oracle of Liberty; >Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; >Location: Worcester, Massachusetts >[The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] > >It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of >this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive >navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the >intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the >riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. > >Joel > >At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: > >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > > > >>capitalism (OED 1854) > >> > >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library > >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more > >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and > >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a > >>plutocracy. > > > > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE > >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 > >Category:News > >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] > >London, July 28 > >... > >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. > >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the > >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground > which it has > >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > > > >SG > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 01:52:05 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:52:05 -0400 Subject: Suicide Circuit (1943, rodeo) Message-ID: I don't know if OED, HDAS, or DARE has anything prepared for "suicide circuit." ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/suicide_circuit_rodeo/ ... Entry from October 30, 2007 Suicide Circuit (rodeo) Rodeo is the official state sport of Texas. It's tough for the rodeo performers, who often suffer many injuries. The term "suicide circuit" for the rodeo business has been in use since at least 1943. There is an isolated 1925 use of "suicide circuit" in the theatre. 29 November 1925, New York (NY) Times, pg. X2: The fact of the matter is in such towns as Rochester, Syracuse, Washington, Baltimore, Toledo and others like them that they became known to managers as the "Death Trail" or the "Suicide Circuit." It was a tradition that once a show started on that dark journey it never got to New York. It was not only a tradition; it was a fact. (The theatre—ed.) 10 October 1943, Los Angeles (CA) Times, "Rodeo Girl," pg. G8: TAKE a look—it isn't difficult—at that girl on the left. She's in the news because she's hitting the horsehide "suicide circuit" in New York's Madison Square Garden for the first time. 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. 3, col. 1: "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. Shoulders, champion All Around Cowboy, champion Bareback Bronc Rider and champion Bull Rider for 1956, has no romantic notions about professional rodeo. He stays with it for one reason: the money. It was the money that first got him into rodeo 14 years ago. 22 August 1957, (Pasco, WA), pg. 1, col. 3: This year, nationally-famous such as Harley-May, Jim Shoulders, Deb Copenhaver and other "suicide circuit" headliners will be home, only the top waddies will actually be seen by spectators. Time magazine The Suicide Circuit Monday, Nov. 18, 1957 (..) Wear & Tear. Rodeo riding, Shoulders argues, is the roughest racket in sport. But it is not the physical danger that concerns him. "There is absolutely no money guarantee," he complains. "You've even got to furnish your own equipment, and you have to pay entry fees to compete. If you're hurt, you have to sort of scuffle around for yourself." 20 December 1959, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Birth of the Rodeo Finals" by Bill Rives, section 2, pg. 2: The sport of rodeo is so rugged that the cowboys who participate in it refer to their annual ride-and-rope tour as "The Suicide Circuit." These indestructible sons of the range country earn their living by trying to stay aboard stomping, twisting, enraged horses and bulls and by roping and wrestling unfriendly bulls and calves. It's a hazardous profession and the cowboy takes great pride in it. A busted rib, a goring scar is a badge of honor, although he'd gruffly deny it. 3 September 1971, New York (NY) Times, Books of The Times: A Tough Way to Earn a Living" by Thomas Lask, pg. 25: RODEO! The Suicide Circuit. Text and photographs by Fred Schnell. Rand McNally. $12.95. Google Books by Howard Roberts Lamar New York, NY: Crowell 1977 Pg. 1031: It is the "suicide" circuit. A most important characteristic of the rodeo cowboy is his feeling of independence: no sponsors, no guarantee, and no salary. 19 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Texas lore from Neiman's to Rodeos to Rednecks" by Charles Martin, section G, pg. 5: Mansfield, in "Rodeo Cowboy, 1976," discusses the "All-American sport" and the nature of the men who are attracted to the "suicide circuit." 20 September 1981, New York (NY) Times, "Rodeo Is Riding High Again" by Scott Eyman, pp. SM20+: "Personally, I don't want to rodeo even 10 more years; they don't call it the 'suicide circuit' for nothing." 6 March 1988, New York (NY) Times, "For Nomadic Rodeo Cowboys, a Few Dollars More" by James Hirsch, pg. F10, col. 1: Sponsors have increased purses, but pros still call it the "suicide circuit." 18 June 1989, New York (NY) Times, "Rounding Up an American Tradition" by Judith Shulevitz, pg. XX14: Whatever the setting, old-timers don't call it "the suicide circuit" for nothing. The danger and excitement of rodeo is palpable, whether you are watching the three riding events or the speed events of roping and steer wrestling. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 31 02:15:52 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:15:52 +0000 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" Message-ID: My Blackberry spell checker corrects CHIASMATIC to CHEESEBURGER. I hope Mr. Popik will take note. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 30, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: [ADS-L] litcrit "chiasmatic" 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk University, Boston. Not in OED. Why the cover-up? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Oct 31 02:56:03 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:56:03 -0500 Subject: More color confusion Message-ID: I'm partial to adding yellow, orange, and purple and further submit that any of these colors may be adverbialized by the suffix -ish, such as "a kinda reddish purple". Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" I may have mentioned this here before. I, like most guys I know, believe that 90% of colors encountered are either red, blue, green or beige, and can be described with those words plus the modifiers "light", "dark", and "kinda". (You'll note I left black off the list. No need for it. That suit isn't black, it's just dark blue. Whadda ya mean it's black? Stand over in that light over there. See?) My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). When we painted our hallway, we had to get color samples. I now realize the many "colors" that exist are just a ruse by Sherwin Williams. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 12:05:10 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:05:10 -0400 Subject: WOTY preview (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) Message-ID: A preview of WOTY season, with quotes from Wayne Glowka and Grant Barrett: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07304/829837-51.stm --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 31 12:18:59 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:18:59 -0400 Subject: antedating of fiasco (1827ff) Message-ID: OED2 has 1855 sense 2 {"...of obscure origin..."), "A failure or break-down in a dramatic or musical performance. Also in a general sense: An ignominious failure, a 'mull'" How early does fiasco appear in Italian with this sense? Do the earliest Italian uses appear with a simple failure (say, a boring opera) or with an ignominious or disastrous failure? Are there commendable articles on this word? ads-l archives has 1842 1nd 1844 quotations. 1827 May. The Oriental herald and colonial review v. XIII ed. by James Silk Buckingham p.229 [Google Books full view; apparently genuine]{In Italy at a performance of a the opera Giovanna by Vaccaij] People began to mutter 'pasticcio,' a phrase by which they are wont to indicate music made up of odds and ends ; and every thing seemed to portend a fiasco, (in musical phraseology, a failure.) A fine duet, however...turned the scale, and put the audience in good humour. 1841 Cecil: or, The adventures of a coxcomb. A novel. 2nd ed. v.2 p.11 [Google Books full view]. [By Mrs. Catherine Grace F. Gore] I was fain to confess that, with all my tact and cleverness, my season had been a failure. I had achieved nothing. My advantages had been great, the result--fiasco! 1841 April The Foreign Quarterly Review p. 118 [GoBk, fv] .. the prying public recognize in a new manoeuvre, anything that has been used before, they hiss it; the ballet is damned, and in this fiasco all the splendid costumes [etc.]...condemned to vanish.... The following are from British Library 19th Century British Newspapers (accessed on an individual not institutional trial basis). Some correspondent apparently quite liked the word. MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), July 25, 1841; Issue 148 When transplanted to Turin a decided _fiasco_ followed, though the principal _artistes_ were the same. [Oberto by Verdi creates a _furore_ in one city and meets with a _fiasco_ in another] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 5, 1841; Issue 167 anticipated the fiasco [a singer omitted some songs, knowing that] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 11, 1842; Issue 220 a downright fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 29, 1844; Issue 327 met with a fiasco [audience reception--cold?] [has been got up and played in Vienna to considerable applause] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 29, 1844; Issue 327 fiasco [some call for carriage to leave early] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), June 8, 1845; Issue 350 met with a fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), November 30, 1845; Issue 375 a "fiasco" in the Haymarket is a thing unknown MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 With my support you succeed; without it you incur fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 tears...could not avert a fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 [letter on corn laws fuss...fiasco] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 season commenced inauspiciously...At Venice Genoa and Milan the fiasco has been general ....[success mitigated] fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), February 22, 1846; Issue 387 [one success [a dancer]] in the midst of the general fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), March 29, 1846; Issue 392 met with rude fiasco Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ullans at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 13:16:45 2007 From: ullans at YAHOO.COM (Montgomery Michael) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:16:45 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: <200710301835.l9UFV3IG009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear Arnold About half of the postings from you, including the one below,end up automatically in my Bulk file, which I check not very often. Any idea why this happens? Yours are one of the few postings I ever read. Please don't get involved in the antedating chase. There are too many messages of that kind already, and it takes several rounds a day to weed out ADS-L postings that are of no interest to me. I know that you have some familiarity with my dictionary of mountain English. This is to let you know that I am in rather late stages of revising and expanding that work, which will cover a rather broader territory. If you have any suggestions regarding format, or indeed the treatment of any specific terms in the dictionary, I would be pleased to hear from you. I am afriad that the reading for citations could proceed forever, as engrossing as it is to unearth obscure publications and other documents from southern Appalachia - I could probably read a volume a day of hillbilly stories from now till 2010 - but I must close this stage of the work by the end of December, with many bridges still to cross. But I would do my best to attend to any recommendations you might have. All the best Michael --- "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > Subject: Re: WOTY Season > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > > > If you are already on that page, please verify > that your details are > > correct. > > > my details are essentially correct, but i'd like to > expand things > somewhat: > > 1. after my title, add a line with my webpage: > http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~zwicky > > 2. add to areas of expertise: > formulaic language, literature giving advice on > grammar, style, > and usage > > 3. add to publications: > numerous postings to Language Log [add link to > LL] since 2003 > > 4. my phone situation has changed. i used to work > mostly at my > private office, but since june 2006, stanford has > supplied me with a > real office, and i mostly work there or at home. so > probably all > three numbers should be listed: > Stanford office: (650) 725-0023. Home: (650) > 323-0753. Private > office: (650) 843-0550. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Oct 31 13:24:37 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:24:37 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 2007 to 30 Oct 2007 (#2007-304) In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UJw6pR002384@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 31 13:56:25 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UMKtkR002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Charles Doyle > I wouldn't assume that the two words are "merged"--just that they > sometimes get confused as to their spelling. In some dialects (like > mine!), "addict" is pronounced the same as "attic," so it might > easily be misspelled that way. But no pronunciation-spelling will > produce "addict" for "attic," since there are no dialects (as far as > I know) that would normally add a [-t] to the end of "attic." That's > all I meant. (I'm not discounting other explanations for "addict" in > place of "attic.") Gotcha. I just figure that if there's no sound difference between the two, and people know of both words but don't necessarily know what they mean, then we might well expect both to end up substituting for the other here and there. (I see this in my 6yo's use of know and no, for example.) -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 15:13:14 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:13:14 -0400 Subject: Trinity (Louisiana dish of onions, celery, bell peppers) Message-ID: O.T.: There's someone hanging from a tree in the house next to mine. I hope this is for Halloween...I'll try to get to "barbecued crabs" later today. ... There's a video in today's NY Times dining section on preparing "grillades and grits," and "the trinity" is shown. Any forthcoming DARE or OED entry? Louisiana borders on Texas, so I'll probably add it to my Texas page. ... NewspaperArchive has a Ruston (LA) newspaper from the 1970s, but I didn't see "trinity" there. "Trinity" definitely shows up by the early 1980s. ... ... ... http://www.nytimes.com/pages/dining/index.html New Orleans Breakfast Grillades and Grits by John Besh ... ... http://www.cookinglouisiana.com/Cooking/The_Trinity.htm Cooking Louisiana - The Trinity Onions, Celery and Bell Pepper, The Trinity as they are known, are the beginning of many a fine dish here in South Louisiana. In my 30 years of cooking I've almost always cooked these vegetables down until they were almost mush. Why, because that's the way I learned to do it from the old folks. This holds true especially for pot roasts, gumbo, jambalaya, sauce piqaunts, etc. ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_(cuisine) The holy trinity of cuisine are the three ingredients key to a particular cuisine. Because these three ingredients are so common in a recipes of a specific cuisine they are almost indivisible and end up being treated as a single ingredient. They also provide the distinctive flavoring of specific cuisines. The name is an allusion to the Holy Trinity of the Christian faith. Common holy trinities in cuisine are: the Indian "wet" trinity of garlic, ginger and onion the Chinese trinity of scallions, ginger and garlic the Szechuan trinity of green garlic, ginger and chili peppers the Thai trinity of galangal, kaffir lime and lemon grass the French Mirepoix trinity of celery, onion and carrot the Lebanese trinity of garlic, lemon juice and olive oil the Italian Soffritto trinity of tomato, garlic and basil the Spanish Sofrito trinity of garlic, onion and tomato cooked in olive oil the Louisiana Creole or Cajun trinity of chopped celery, bell peppers, and onions ... ... 6 May 1984, New York (NY) TImes, pg. 437: In both Cajun and Creole cookery, finely chopped onion, celery and green peppers are the "holy trinity" of the kitchen. Tomatoes, according to Prudhomme, do not play as important a role in Cajun cookery as they do in Creole, where a great many creations would be impossible without them. The numerous ingredients native to both cuisines include cornmeal, okra, grits and, of course, crawfish. ... ... 17 August 1984, New York (NY Times, "Cajun-Creole fare comes to TriBeCa" by Marian Burros, pg. C18: Despite such lapses, Miss Trilling is generally knowledgeable about the qualities of Cajun-Creole cooking. She knew that redfish was good long before Paul Prudhomme made it famous by blackening it, and she serves it with love sauce, which is a zesty crawfish etoufee, made with crawfish fat, plus a combination known in Louisiana as the Holy Trinity: green pepper, onion and celery. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Cornbread Killer - Page 219 by Lou Jane Temple - Fiction - 2000 - 272 pages ... or 1 28 oz. can whole tomatoes Tabasco or other Louisiana hot sauce 1 T. soy ... The Holy Trinity: onions, celery, and green pepper are the mirepoix of ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Cooking with Grease: Stirring the Pots in American Politics - Page 319 by Donna Brazile - Biography & Autobiography - 2004 - 352 pages ... favorable sauce that has become one of the most important staples of Louisiana cuisine. ... Step 7: Now you are ready to add the holy trinity of onions, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Good Housekeeping Great American Classics Cookbook - Page 155 by Beth Allen, Susan Westmoreland - Cooking - 2004 - 336 pages ... Acadians were expelled from settlements in Nova Scotia and headed south to Louisiana. ... And, of course, the "holy trinity" of chopped onions, celery, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) In the Kitchen with Papa Wiltz: Favorite Cajun-Creole and Mexican-American ... - Page 1 by Francis N. Wiltz - Cooking - 2006 - 160 pages ... Cajun French spoken mainly in South Louisiana (Cajun country or Acadiana). ... of onions, bell peppers, and celery is called the "Cajun Trinity". ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Jewish Roots in Southern Soil: A New History - Page 252 by Marcie Cohen Ferris, Mark I. Greenberg - History - 2006 - 384 pages The staple ingredients are the "holy trinity of Cajun cooking: onions, peppers, and celery," and a butter-and-flour-enriched roux that thickens the mix. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 15:18:57 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:18:57 -0700 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <200710302229.l9UMTIlc002544@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the word simply used inaccurately or inappropriately? JIM --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > scumbled the word on the board. > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > me, learn a new > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 15:23:49 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:23:49 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" In-Reply-To: <314525.98419.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Isn't "crossings" redundant here? ...chiasmatic dichotomies --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI > (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the > chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - > especially the external and the internal, visible > and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, > which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English > at Suffolk University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 15:51:33 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:51:33 +0000 Subject: How many words in English and how many does one know? In-Reply-To: <200710311215.l9VAkQpG025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on "How many words are there in English" I find counts below. Far short of a billion. http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm HOW MANY WORDS? How many in the language and how many does any one person know? One of the more common questions that arrive for the Q&A section asks how many words there are in the English language. Almost as common are requests for the average size of a person’s vocabulary. These sound like easy questions; I have to tell you that they’re indeed easy to ask. But they’re almost impossible to answer satisfactorily, because it all depends what you mean by word and by vocabulary (or even English). What we mean by word sounds obvious, but it’s not. Take a verb like climb. The rules of English allow you to generate the forms climbs, climbed, climbable, and climbing, the nouns climb and climber (and their plurals climbs and climbers), compounds such as climb-down and climbing frame, and phrasal verbs like climb on, climb over, and climb down. Now, here’s the question you’ve got to answer: are all these distinct words, or do you lump them all together under climb? That this is not a trivial question can be proved by looking at half a dozen current dictionaries. You won’t find two that agree on what to list. Almost every word in the language has this fuzzy penumbra of inflected forms, separate senses and compounds, some to a much greater extent than climb. To take a famous case, the entry for set in the Oxford English Dictionary runs to 60,000 words. The noun alone has 47 separate senses listed. Are all these distinct words? And in a wider sense, what do you include in your list of words? Do you count all the regional variations of English? Or slang? Dialect? Family or private language? Proper names and the names of places? And what about abbreviations? The biggest dictionary of them has more than 400,000 entries — do you count them all as words? And what about informal and formal names for living things? The wood louse is known in Britain by many local names — tiggy-hog, cheeselog, pill bug, chiggy pig, and rolypoly among others. Are these all to be counted as separate words? And, to take a more specialist example, is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the formal name for bread yeast, to be counted as a word (or perhaps two)? If you say yes, you’ve got to add another couple of million such names to the English-language word count. And what about medical terms, such as syncytiotrophoblastic or holoprosencephaly, that few of us ever encounter? The other difficult term is vocabulary. What counts as a word that somebody knows? Is it one that a person uses regularly and accurately? Or perhaps one that will be correctly recognised — say in written text — but not used? Or perhaps one that will be understood in context but which the person may not easily be able to define? This distinction between what linguists call active and passive vocabularies is hard to measure, and it skews estimates. The problem doesn’t stop there. English speakers not only know words, they know word-forming elements, such as the ending -phobia for some irrational fear. A journalist rushing to meet a deadline might take a word he knows, like Serb, and tack on the ending to make Serbophobia. He’s just added a word to the language (probably only temporarily), but can he really be said to have that word in his vocabulary? If nobody ever uses it again, can we legitimately count it? By reversing the coining process, a reader of the newspaper can easily work out the word’s origin and meaning. Has the reader also added a word to his vocabulary? Can you now see why estimates of the total number of words in the English language and in a person’s vocabulary are so difficult to make, and why they vary so much one from another? David Crystal, in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, suggests that there must be at least a million words in the language. Tom McArthur, in the Oxford Companion to the English Language, comes up with a similar figure. David Crystal further says that if you allow all scientific terms the total could easily reach two million (this doesn’t count the formal names for organisms I spoke about earlier, just technical vocabulary). Assessing the size of the vocabulary of an individual is at least as problematical. Take Shakespeare: you’d think it would be easy to assess his vocabulary. We have the plays and sonnets and we just have to count the words in them (according to the American Heritage Dictionary, there are 884,647 of them, made up of 29,066 distinct forms, including proper names). But estimates of Shakespeare’s vocabulary vary from about 18,000 to 25,000 in various books, because writers have different views about what constitutes a distinct word. It’s common to see figures for vocabulary quoted such as 10,000-12,000 words for a 16-year-old, and 20,000-25,000 for a college graduate. These seem not to have much research to back them up. Usually they don’t make clear whether active or passive vocabulary is being quoted, and they don’t account for differences in lifestyle, profession and hobby interests between individuals. David Crystal described a simple research project — using random pages from a dictionary — that suggests these figures are severe underestimates. He concludes that a better average for a college graduate might be 60,000 active words and 75,000 passive ones. But this method of assessing vocabulary counts dictionary headwords only; it would be possible to multiply it several-fold to include different senses, inflected forms, and compounds. Another assessment — of a million-word collection of American texts — identified about 38,000 headwords. Bearing in mind this was all general writing, this doesn’t sound so different from David Crystal’s estimates for graduate vocabularies. http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/numberwords There is no single sensible answer to this question. It is impossible to count the number of words in a language, because it is so hard to decide what counts as a word. Is dog one word, or two (a noun meaning 'a kind of animal', and a verb meaning 'to follow persistently')? If we count it as two, then do we count inflections separately too (dogs plural noun, dogs present tense of the verb). Is dog-tired a word, or just two other words joined together? Is hot dog really two words, since we might also find hot-dog or even hotdog? It is also difficult to decide what counts as 'English'. What about medical and scientific terms? Latin words used in law, French words used in cooking, German words used in academic writing, Japanese words used in martial arts? Do you count Scots dialect? Youth slang? Computing jargon? The Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. Over half of these words are nouns, about a quarter adjectives, and about a seventh verbs; the rest is made up of interjections, conjunctions, prepositions, suffixes, etc. These figures take no account of entries with senses for different parts of speech (such as noun and adjective). This suggests that there are, at the very least, a quarter of a million distinct English words, excluding inflections, and words from technical and regional vocabulary not covered by the OED, or words not yet added to the published dictionary, of which perhaps 20 per cent are no longer in current use. If distinct senses were counted, the total would probably approach three quarters of a million. ...It seems quite probable that English has more words than most comparable world languages. The reason for this is historical. English was originally a Germanic language, related to Dutch and German, and it shares much of its grammar and basic vocabulary with those languages. However, after the Norman Conquest in 1066 it was hugely influenced by Norman French, which became the language of the ruling class for a considerable period, and by Latin, which was the language of scholarship and of the Church. Very large numbers of French and Latin words entered the language. Consequently, English has a much larger vocabulary than either the Germanic languages or the members of the Romance language family to which French belongs. English is also very ready to accommodate foreign words, and as it has become an international language, it has absorbed vocabulary from a large number of other sources. This does, of course, assume that you ignore 'agglutinative' languages such as Finnish, in which words can be stuck together in long strings of indefinite length, and which therefore have an almost infinite number of 'words'. http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm HOW MANY WORDS? How many in the language and how manydoes any one person know? One of the more common questions that arrive for the Q&A section asks how many words there are in the English language. Almost as common are requests for the average size of a person’s vocabulary. These sound like easy questions; I have to tell you that they’re indeed easy to ask. But they’re almost impossible to answer satisfactorily, because it all depends what you mean by word and by vocabulary (or even English). What we mean by word sounds obvious, but it’s not. Take a verb like climb. The rules of English allow you to generate the forms climbs, climbed, climbable, and climbing, the nouns climb and climber (and their plurals climbs and climbers), compounds such as climb-down and climbing frame, and phrasal verbs like climb on, climb over, and climb down. Now, here’s the question you’ve got to answer: are all these distinct words, or do you lump them all together under climb? That this is not a trivial question can be proved by looking at half a dozen current dictionaries. You won’t find two that agree on what to list. Almost every word in the language has this fuzzy penumbra of inflected forms, separate senses and compounds, some to a much greater extent than climb. To take a famous case, the entry for set in the Oxford English Dictionary runs to 60,000 words. The noun alone has 47 separate senses listed. Are all these distinct words? And in a wider sense, what do you include in your list of words? Do you count all the regional variations of English? Or slang? Dialect? Family or private language? Proper names and the names of places? And what about abbreviations? The biggest dictionary of them has more than 400,000 entries — do you count them all as words? And what about informal and formal names for living things? The wood louse is known in Britain by many local names — tiggy-hog, cheeselog, pill bug, chiggy pig, and rolypoly among others. Are these all to be counted as separate words? And, to take a more specialist example, is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the formal name for bread yeast, to be counted as a word (or perhaps two)? If you say yes, you’ve got to add another couple of million such names to the English-language word count. And what about medical terms, such as syncytiotrophoblastic or holoprosencephaly, that few of us ever encounter? The other difficult term is vocabulary. What counts as a word that somebody knows? Is it one that a person uses regularly and accurately? Or perhaps one that will be correctly recognised — say in written text — but not used? Or perhaps one that will be understood in context but which the person may not easily be able to define? This distinction between what linguists call active and passive vocabularies is hard to measure, and it skews estimates. The problem doesn’t stop there. English speakers not only know words, they know word-forming elements, such as the ending -phobia for some irrational fear. A journalist rushing to meet a deadline might take a word he knows, like Serb, and tack on the ending to make Serbophobia. He’s just added a word to the language (probably only temporarily), but can he really be said to have that word in his vocabulary? If nobody ever uses it again, can we legitimately count it? By reversing the coining process, a reader of the newspaper can easily work out the word’s origin and meaning. Has the reader also added a word to his vocabulary? Can you now see why estimates of the total number of words in the English language and in a person’s vocabulary are so difficult to make, and why they vary so much one from another? David Crystal, in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, suggests that there must be at least a million words in the language. Tom McArthur, in the Oxford Companion to the English Language, comes up with a similar figure. David Crystal further says that if you allow all scientific terms the total could easily reach two million (this doesn’t count the formal names for organisms I spoke about earlier, just technical vocabulary). Assessing the size of the vocabulary of an individual is at least as problematical. Take Shakespeare: you’d think it would be easy to assess his vocabulary. We have the plays and sonnets and we just have to count the words in them (according to the American Heritage Dictionary, there are 884,647 of them, made up of 29,066 distinct forms, including proper names). But estimates of Shakespeare’s vocabulary vary from about 18,000 to 25,000 in various books, because writers have different views about what constitutes a distinct word. It’s common to see figures for vocabulary quoted such as 10,000-12,000 words for a 16-year-old, and 20,000-25,000 for a college graduate. These seem not to have much research to back them up. Usually they don’t make clear whether active or passive vocabulary is being quoted, and they don’t account for differences in lifestyle, profession and hobby interests between individuals. David Crystal described a simple research project — using random pages from a dictionary — that suggests these figures are severe underestimates. He concludes that a better average for a college graduate might be 60,000 active words and 75,000 passive ones. But this method of assessing vocabulary counts dictionary headwords only; it would be possible to multiply it several-fold to include different senses, inflected forms, and compounds. Another assessment — of a million-word collection of American texts — identified about 38,000 headwords. Bearing in mind this was all general writing, this doesn’t sound so different from David Crystal’s estimates for graduate vocabularies. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 31 16:12:14 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:12:14 -0500 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: A<340130.46162.qm@web50605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other interpretations though. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the word simply used inaccurately or > inappropriately? > > JIM > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > me, learn a new > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > Joel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 16:14:55 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:14:55 -0400 Subject: How many words in English and how many does one know? In-Reply-To: <200710311551.l9VAkQ6u030574@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/31/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Googling on "How many words are there in English" I find counts below. Far > short of a billion. > > http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm Just to repeat: no one is claiming that there are a billion words in English. As I explained the first time Tom brought it up (on Oct. 18), headlines last year proclaiming "English Language Hits 1 Billion Words" were based on a misunderstanding: the Oxford English Corpus had reached the one-billion-word mark, meaning that the OEC contained a billion *tokens* (instances of words in the collected texts), rather than a billion distinct lexical items. (As the OEC continues to grow, that figure has now surpassed two billion.) Once again, here is a link to my Language Log post discussing the erroneous headlines: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 31 17:11:03 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:11:03 -0500 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UJErWc008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have in front of me two restaurant menus. One is from the Bonefish Grill, which is a chain with six restaurants in New Jersey (bonefishgrill.com). The menu contains: Bang Bang Shrimp $8.5 Mussels Josephine $8.8 Ahi Tuna Sashimi half $8.8 full $14.9 Grouper Piccata $19.5 Diablo Shrimp Fettuccine $13.2 Tenderloin Portabella Piccata $14.2 Lily's Chicken $13.5 Fontina Chops $13.9 Sirloin Steak 10 ounce $13.9 (add Garlic Gorgonzola butter $1.5) That is, all prices on the menu are in true decimal, in tenths of a dollar rather than in cents (hundredths of a dollar). The other menu is from the Joy Luck Palace, a Chinese restaurant which just reopened, under a different name (it used to be the China Buffet), after remodeling. All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. Egg Drop Soup.............2 Hot and Sour Soup........3 Egg Roll......................2 Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 Moo Shu Pork..............9 Beef with Broccoli........10 Sauteed Steak Kew......15 These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) OT to Bill Mullins: you say My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). According to MWCD10 page 1207 column 2, taupe is "a brownish gray". Note that M-W says this flatly without saying, as they sometimes do with colors, "chartreuse: a variable color averaging a brilliant yellow green". Mauve, on the other hand, is a specific color, that of the aniline dye mauveine, discovered serendipitously by William Perkins in 1856. (For more information see http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/colors/3.htm). OT to Barry Popik: you quoted: 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. 3, col. 1: "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. Is there a mistake here? A quarter million in ten years is only $25,000 per year, which was good but not spectacularly great back in 1957 (the equivalent of between $100K and $150K in today's dollars.) James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ GZTWP PPKSZ YZTRV NAZTI EJONB SZFPQ RUBGX PLZYG YAIXJ SZRCT ZZAAW LAKOK TQRZA HHNFH JHFNF GZBPG ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 17:52:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:52:33 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52CB0CD15@XMBIL101.northgrum. com> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. > Egg Drop Soup.............2 > Hot and Sour Soup........3 > Egg Roll......................2 > Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > Moo Shu Pork..............9 > Beef with Broccoli........10 > Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > >These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because >they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop >Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > >Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. IIRC, I've never seen just dimes after the decimal point. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 17:56:44 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:56:44 -0400 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869C1F6C24@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: I took JL's use as "To soften or render less brilliant" (OED2, sense 1.a); for the writing on the board, "to obscure". But of course he's the one to say. > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. Joel At 10/31/2007 12:12 PM, you wrote: >Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other >interpretations though. > >Gerald Cohen > > > ---------- > > > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the > word simply used inaccurately or > > inappropriately? > > > > JIM > > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > > me, learn a new > > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:15:30 2007 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:15:30 -0400 Subject: Eggcorn: *mooted* > *muted* Message-ID: Spotted today in an MSN Sky Sports story about a confirmed English bid to host the 2018 football World Cup Finals: 'A bid for the 2018 finals has been muted for some time' near the beginning of the story 'FA confirm World Cup bid' at http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_2839166,00.html In this re-spelling of the less common *mooted*, the meaning 'suggested discreetly, in the inner circles' has been preserved and transferred to the commoner *muted*, which could also have connotations of discreetness through silence. The transfer is helped by the near-homophony of the two words (in this case, there probably isn't absolute homophony, since the website is a British one, and few British accents omit the glide in *mute*; those that do are spoken by minorities of the population). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:25:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311753.l9VHqumR016195@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. >> Egg Drop Soup.............2 >> Hot and Sour Soup........3 >> Egg Roll......................2 >> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 >> Moo Shu Pork..............9 >> Beef with Broccoli........10 >> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 >> >> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's >> because >> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg >> Drop >> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >> >> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in > restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some > time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but > achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > IIRC, I've never > seen just dimes after the decimal point. i don't recall seeing that either. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Wed Oct 31 18:28:05 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:28:05 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311753.l9VFx7Dm025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But I'll bet you _have_ seen the opposite extreme: the dollar symbol and the _word_ dollars used together. And, additionally, the positioning of a dollar sign after the number. Though both these are relatively uncommon, compared to _proper_ usages, they crop up often enough to be noteworthy. (I have to pass a big-sign example of the former every time I pass a Chevy dealership in a nearby town, where they proclaim they have "Many cars Below $10,000 Dollars". Um, I think they mean _less than_, but that's a subject for a separate discussion!) (the other) doug --------- --------------- ---------------- ------------ IIRC, I've never seen just dimes after the decimal point. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 18:28:16 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:28:16 -0400 Subject: Eggcorn: *mooted* > *muted* In-Reply-To: <1193854530.4728c642788d3@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Hardly muted, if were talking about British football and its fans. Joel At 10/31/2007 02:15 PM, you wrote: >Spotted today in an MSN Sky Sports story about a confirmed English bid to host >the 2018 football World Cup Finals: > >'A bid for the 2018 finals has been muted for some time' >near the beginning of the story 'FA confirm World Cup bid' at >http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_2839166,00.html > >In this re-spelling of the less common *mooted*, the meaning 'suggested >discreetly, in the inner circles' has been preserved and transferred to the >commoner *muted*, which could also have connotations of discreetness through >silence. The transfer is helped by the near-homophony of the two words (in >this case, there probably isn't absolute homophony, since the website is a >British one, and few British accents omit the glide in *mute*; those that do >are spoken by minorities of the population). > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:41:49 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:41:49 -0400 Subject: noncents Message-ID: The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to deserve eating there? --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 >From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > >On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >>> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. >>> Egg Drop Soup.............2 >>> Hot and Sour Soup........3 >>> Egg Roll......................2 >>> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 >>> Moo Shu Pork..............9 >>> Beef with Broccoli........10 >>> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 >>> >>> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's >>> because >>> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg >>> Drop >>> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >>> >>> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >>> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? >> >> I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in >> restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some >> time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but >> achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. > >palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > >> IIRC, I've never >> seen just dimes after the decimal point. > >i don't recall seeing that either. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 18:47:49 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:47:49 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <20071031144149.IQE10034@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 02:41 PM, Charles Doyle wrote: >The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is significantly >cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to deserve eating there? Well, Arnold was writing about Palo Alto, home of dot-coms and Stanford ... Joel >--Charlie >____________________________________________________________ >---- Original message ---- > >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 > >From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > > > >On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > >> At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. > >>> Egg Drop Soup.............2 > >>> Hot and Sour Soup........3 > >>> Egg Roll......................2 > >>> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > >>> Moo Shu Pork..............9 > >>> Beef with Broccoli........10 > >>> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > >>> > >>> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's > >>> because > >>> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg > >>> Drop > >>> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > >>> > >>> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > >>> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > >> > >> I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in > >> restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some > >> time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but > >> achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. > > > >palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of > them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California > Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, > 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > > > >> IIRC, I've never > >> seen just dimes after the decimal point. > > > >i don't recall seeing that either. > > > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 19:34:13 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:34:13 -0700 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <200710311757.l9VFx7F8025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My eighth-grade art teacher was the first person I ever heard use the word to "scumble." As I recall, he said it meant to rub and rub a line, as sketched, for example, with charcoal, so as to eliminate any sharp edges and present a subdued less distinct effect. Perhaps I should have said, "electronically scumbled." The image of the word "ass" (short for "jackass") was not blacked or blanked out, just softened to the point where you might or might not be able to think you could actually see it. I imagine the technical term would be "pixelated," but, as so often, underlying linguistic structures deployed innovative figuration in unpacking the inarguably absent essence of the reports, though merely prolegomenon to the necessary political meta-(anal)ysis. JL "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I took JL's use as "To soften or render less brilliant" (OED2, sense 1.a); for the writing on the board, "to obscure". But of course he's the one to say. > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. Joel At 10/31/2007 12:12 PM, you wrote: >Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other >interpretations though. > >Gerald Cohen > > > ---------- > > > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the > word simply used inaccurately or > > inappropriately? > > > > JIM > > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > > me, learn a new > > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 20:28:43 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:28:43 -0500 Subject: Snowclone on Language Log (and So Can You!) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710311848.l9VHX0Dk030570@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE With apologies, I quote almost all of Geoff Pullum's recent Language Log post (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005075.html ): **************** October 31, 2007 And so can you (be) The quick eye of Mark Liberman recently spotted what may be the fastest ever emergence of a new phrase into snowclonehood when Steven Colbert's book title I Am America (And So Can You!) was picked up by Guy Trebay of the New York Times after just three weeks: Trebay's pastiched article title She's Famous (and So Can You) has just the same syntactic property - an ungrammatical (or at least strikingly and off-puttingly unusual) deletion of a repeat occurrence of be. [I'm assuming here that I am America (and so can you be!) is fully grammatical and acceptable, and so is She's famous (and so can you be). The near-prohibition of deleting non-finite forms of be under identity of sense was studied in a nice doctoral dissertation by Nancy Levin at The Ohio State University some years ago.] **************** Geoff has analyzed this snowclone as if the grammatical error to be corrected is in the second half of the snowclone. There's nothing wrong with that, but to my mind, the part that reads the "rightest" (in the context of the joke) is the second half, and mentally I try to force the first half into a correct structure. That isn't as easy to do as adding "be" to the end of the second half (which may be why Geoff did it the way he did it). I suppose that it could be reworked into "I Am [Being] America (And So Can You!)". Not having the linguistic training of Geoff or others on this list, I'm treading on dangerous ground when I analyze this snowclone. But to me, it works because it is contrasting the first phrase (which has a state-of-being verb) with the second (which wants to refer back to an active verb). Geoff's "fix" makes the second phrase consistent with state-of-being; my mind wants to make the first phrase have some kind of active verb. And the difficulty of doing that is why the book title is funny. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 20:54:45 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:54:45 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <20071031144149.IQE10034@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is > that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there > shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could > be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is > significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to > deserve eating there? why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's simpler for everybody. i could ask some of them; i know several of them. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 20:58:28 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:58:28 -0700 Subject: Snowclone on Language Log (and So Can You!) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044BA580@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > With apologies, I quote almost all of Geoff Pullum's recent > Language Log > post ... > > Geoff has analyzed this snowclone as if the grammatical error to be > corrected is in the second half of the snowclone... my take on the title, way back in may: AZ, 5/23/07: News from the further reaches of Ellipsilandia: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004522.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 20:59:56 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:59:56 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710312054.l9VK001R025948@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think the single price menu telegraphs "upscale dining"--y'know, the kind of place with tablecloths not covered by a sheet of glass with a paper table mat. -db On 10/31/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: noncents > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is > > that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there > > shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could > > be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is > > significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to > > deserve eating there? > > why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? > especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's > simpler for everybody. > > i could ask some of them; i know several of them. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 21:25:07 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:25:07 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <18456AC7-4050-4D47-99F5-E8AFDC1FBB7C@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 04:54 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > >>The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >>that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >>shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >>be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is >>significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to >>deserve eating there? > >why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? >especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's >simpler for everybody. > >i could ask some of them; i know several of them. Yeah, but you're just part of the same in-crowd. But by all means get the true facts from the horse's mouth (as long as it isn't on the menu). Intended in good humor. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 21:36:46 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:36:46 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311711.l9VAkQtc030570@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/31/07, Landau, James wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Landau, James" > Subject: noncents > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have in front of me two restaurant menus. > > One is from the Bonefish Grill, which is a chain with six restaurants in > New Jersey (bonefishgrill.com). > The menu contains: > Bang Bang Shrimp $8.5 > Mussels Josephine $8.8 > Ahi Tuna Sashimi half $8.8 full $14.9 > Grouper Piccata $19.5 > Diablo Shrimp Fettuccine $13.2 > Tenderloin Portabella Piccata $14.2 > Lily's Chicken $13.5 > Fontina Chops $13.9 > Sirloin Steak 10 ounce $13.9 (add Garlic Gorgonzola butter $1.5) > > That is, all prices on the menu are in true decimal, in tenths of a > dollar rather than in cents (hundredths of a dollar). > > The other menu is from the Joy Luck Palace, a Chinese restaurant which > just reopened, under a different name (it used to be the China Buffet), > after remodeling. > > All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g.=20 > Egg Drop Soup.............2 > Hot and Sour Soup........3 > Egg Roll......................2 > Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > Moo Shu Pork..............9 > Beef with Broccoli........10 > Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > > These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because > they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop > Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > > Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on > which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) > > OT to Bill Mullins: you say > > My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some > things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to > catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for > all I know). Back in the 'Fifties and 'Sixties, taupe was one of the colors used for parts of the uniforms worn by the U.S. military, e.g. raincoats, for example, in the case of men and women, and stockings and garter belts, in the case of women. In other words, once was a time when "taupe" was a word of everyday use, at least among those who were, or who had spent time in, the military. Isn't "taupe" the French word for "mole," the rodent? -Wilson > According to MWCD10 page 1207 column 2, taupe is "a brownish gray". > Note that M-W says this flatly without saying, as they sometimes do with > colors, "chartreuse: a variable color averaging a brilliant yellow > green". Mauve, on the other hand, is a specific color, that of the > aniline dye mauveine, discovered serendipitously by William Perkins in > 1856. (For more information see > http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/colors/3.htm). > > OT to Barry Popik: you quoted: > > 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders > Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. > 3, col. 1: > "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." > > That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any > other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him > better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. > > Is there a mistake here? A quarter million in ten years is only > $25,000 per year, which was good but not spectacularly great back in > 1957 (the equivalent of between $100K and $150K in today's dollars.) > > James A. Landau > test engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > > =20 > ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^=20 > GZTWP PPKSZ YZTRV NAZTI EJONB=20 > SZFPQ RUBGX PLZYG YAIXJ SZRCT=20 > ZZAAW LAKOK TQRZA HHNFH JHFNF=20 > GZBPG=20 > ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 21:50:08 2007 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:50:08 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311711.l9VFx74G025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: --- "Landau, James" wrote: > > These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because > they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop > Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > > Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on > which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) I've seen dollars without cents a few times before, usually in more upscale or trendy restaurants. The missing hundreds digit looks weird to me, although I think I've seen it on wine-by-the-glass lists at some restaurants that otherwise omit the decimal values entirely. Jeff Prucher Editor, Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction http://www.jeffprucher.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 22:10:18 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:10:18 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301654.l9UAl5gI008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I, too, have always known topaz to be kinda dark yellow(ish). BTW, in Saint Louis, it's pronounced "topoz," as lilac is pronounced "liloc", crappie (a fish) is pronounced "croppie," tassle is pronounced "tossle," etc. -Wilson On 10/30/07, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: More color confusion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've always known topaz to be yellowish, and I've certainly seen it > up close and personal more than once. > > According to http://www.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/topaz/topaz.htm , > > "Topaz is a common gemstone that has been used for centuries in > jewelry. Its golden brown to yellow color is classic but is confused > with the less valuable citrine, which is sold under the name topaz. > The blue topaz that is often confused with aquamarine is rarely > natural and is produced by irradiating and then heating clear > crystals." > > And on the side of the same page is a bunch of ads for blue topaz > jewellery. Nary a sight of the yellowish kind. So apparently in some > quarters, topaz is thought of as blue! News to me. > > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Oct 31 23:19:56 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:19:56 -0500 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710312125.l9VLPUXn005783@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Think of it as an extension of the sans serif type face. A triumph of style over substance. > >> >>> The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >>> that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >>> shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >>> be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is >>> significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to >>> deserve eating there? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 23:25:18 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:25:18 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <219202.29803.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- "Landau, James" wrote: > >> >> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because >> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop >> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >> >> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? >> >> (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on >> which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) > >I've seen dollars without cents a few times before, usually in more upscale or >trendy restaurants. The missing hundreds digit looks weird to me, although I >think I've seen it on wine-by-the-glass lists at some restaurants that >otherwise omit the decimal values entirely. > Yup, and at our local excellent Malaysian restaurant the dinner menu is in the usual dollars-and-cents mode, but the single malt scotch offerings (and quite possibly the wine-by-the-glass ones) are in dollar amounts, sans decimal points/values. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 23:58:55 2007 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:58:55 -0400 Subject: star in Message-ID: Spotted in today's (31 October 2007) *Metro*, Philadelphia edition, as the caption to the picture in the 'TV tonight' section (p20): 'Stella (Melina Kanakaredes) and Mac (Gary Sinise) star in "CSI: NY."' For me, the subject arguments and their adjuncts are the wrong way around in this sentence. In my dialect, I would have to say 'MK (Stella) and GS (Mac) star in ...', because it's the actors who are doing the starring, not the characters; the sentence as quoted implies that it is the characters doing the starring. Neither *OED* nor *MW* lists this permutation of arguments for *star in*. Does it strike others as unusual? Has anyone heard it before, in which case it might be an incoming variant? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:02:35 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:02:35 -0400 Subject: snowclone: A by B, C by D In-Reply-To: <200709301407.l8UAkG7E028155@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not relevant, but I found myself thinking "One if by land, two if by sea." Yeah, as my lady says, time to get off the computer and go to bed. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:07:10 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:07:10 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200710010144.l8UAkGR9028157@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So you did it your way. m a m On 9/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > But my way's better. > > JL > > Laurence Horn wrote: > > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name > > another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > > > for nothin' left to lose." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 02:31:00 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:31:00 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <116231.70548.qm@web53907.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:44 PM -0700 9/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But my way's better. > > JL I wouldn't mess with that Kristoffersen fellow. He looks like he wouldn't mess with easily. LH >Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >>that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >>to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! >> >> Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name > >another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > >> for nothin' left to lose." >> >> Say what? >> >> JL >> >>Wilson Gray wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Wilson Gray >>Subject: "Nothing to lose" >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." >> >>The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: >> >>"Nothing beats a try but a failure." >> >>For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >>"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >>whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >>understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >>you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >>possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >>you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >>doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >>because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. >> >>-Wilson >>-- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >>-Sam'l Clemens >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >>--------------------------------- >>Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >>Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get >listings, and more! > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 01:44:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:44:16 -0700 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200710010014.l8UJ00FD003720@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But my way's better. JL Laurence Horn wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: "Nothing to lose" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > for nothin' left to lose." > > Say what? > > JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." > >The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: > >"Nothing beats a try but a failure." > >For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. > >-Wilson >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 00:10:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:10:03 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <82745f630709301419k745cce25ofa7ac60c8266b230@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >in Dutch of the "Seventies. > >-Wilson An anecdote along the same lines: During my first week in Paris on my junior year abroad in '63, with my many years of grade school, high school, and college French under my belt, I found myself in a subway station with the compelling need to inquire of someone "O? est la salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous derision: "Une salle de bains dans le m?tro?!?" Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I eventually learned that I should have asked for "la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have done the job as well. LH > >On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Doug Harris >> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >> when that was the price of admission to a "public >> convenience". >> (the other) doug >> >> --- >> >> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >> >> Paul Johnston wrote: >> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be fine. >> > As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually got my >> > questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by a >> > repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >> > Rellingford Road to get there." >> > >> > Paul Johnston >> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where the >> >> subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same issue? BB >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 02:14:27 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:14:27 -0400 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <200709292119.l8TAk9MU005417@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song lyrics as transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's spelling and punctuation are already pretty bad. my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me were friends like you, This other one is unclear ( http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 02:20:02 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:20:02 -0400 Subject: Major Antedating of "WASP" Message-ID: Barry Popik has previously pushed the earliest known usage of _WASP_ back to May 1957. Here is a significantly earlier occurrence in ProQuest's Black American Newspapers: 1948 _New York Amsterdam News_ 17 Apr. 1 In America, we find the WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) ganging up to take their frustrations out on whatever minority group happens to be handy -- whether Negro, Catholic, Jewish, Japanese, or what not. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Oct 1 01:02:49 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:02:49 -0500 Subject: Whiz (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: And the military expression used at formal affairs, "Water the horses," although that may have been purely a cavalry thing. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" A lady (and I use the word in its best sense) I used to work with once told me she "had to go see a man about a mule". It took a while for me to figure out that she went to the bathroom. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 00:14:24 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:14:24 -0400 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <394758.813.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and >that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways >to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! > > Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name another *word* (as I'm sure Fred's compendium will verify) > for nothin' left to lose." > > Say what? > > JL > >Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: "Nothing to lose" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >"... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." > >The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: > >"Nothing beats a try but a failure." > >For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the >"obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement >whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and >understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when >you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only >possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or >you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it >doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), >because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. > >-Wilson >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- >-Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 00:01:02 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:01:02 -0700 Subject: "Nothing to lose" In-Reply-To: <200709302040.l8UJ00wL003720@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Like, there's only one possible outcome that can foil your try, and that's "failure." So you got, like, just one way to lose but X ways to win, if you follow me. So the odds are way on your side, dude! Reminds me of, "Freedom's just another name for nothin' left to lose." Say what? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: "Nothing to lose" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Benjamin Barrett wrote: "... [T]here was _nothing to lose_." The usual way of expressing this concept in Saint Louis BE is: "Nothing beats a try but a failure." For some reason, this has always messed with my mind, since the "obvious" interpretation is that "a failure beats a try," a statement whose truth is undeniable. Yet, the saying is always used and understood as though it meant, "There's nothing to lose." And, when you think about it, it *does* mean that! If you don't try, the only possible outcome is failure, whereas, if you try, you may succeed or you may fail. But, if you fail, it matters not (oddly, using "it doesn't matter" was most unhip in the Saint Louis of my youth), because, in any case, _there was nothing to lose_. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 00:09:36 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 01:09:36 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200709302044.l8UAkGnb018202@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Doug Harris wrote: > As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, > they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having > no intention whatsoever of bathing, [...] I may have already told the story, from my time in Paris, of how I got into something very close to an argument with one of my closest friends at the time, an American, over whether there was a mirror in my bathroom: I *knew* that the object in question existed, right over the washbasin, next to the tub; she insisted there was no mirror whatsoever in my bathroom ... only the toilet facilities themselves. (When that was cleared up I asked somewhat testily how she would call a room whose primary purpose was to take baths in, complete with a lovely sit-down tub. She sort of saw the rationale behind my calling it "bathroom", but decided on "washroom" in the end.) Another story is that of the young US exchange student, first time abroad, who a friend of mine was part of an unofficial welcome committee for. He arrived on a British Airways flight, and had felt rather offended by hearing the flight attendants referring to the location of the "toilets". One of our group didn't even understand what his problem was and launched into a long explanation about how it was indeed the flight attendants' job to direct passengers to the location of the toilets, and didn't he prefer being told beforehand instead of having to figure it out on his own from the seating plan? On a different note, as far as euphemisms for toilets go, I found it surprisingly easy to adapt to the Canadian "washroom" -- I believe because using the facilities in fact includes the act of washing (at least my hands, sometimes my face); however, certainly not bathing. Even now, if I am unsure about the squeamishness level of the company I'm in and therefore need a more obscuring euphemism than I'd normally use, "washroom" is it. (In the office where I work in London, "loo" and "toilet" would be the two most common terms.) As for South African English, the most striking feature I've come across (in addition to raising just about every [@] -- the 'cat' vowel -- to [E] -- the 'bed' vowel) to is "just now". This adverbial designates a point in time somewhere within the line of sight of "now" (past or future). It does not, however, imply immediate proximity. So "I'll do it just now" means about the same as "I'm putting it on my to-do list and will get to it at some point in the foreseeable future". It doesn't mean "I'll get started on it right away". Similarly, "they had a child just now" can refer to a situation where the child in question is a few months or even years old. (If "just now" isn't good enough, a task can be requested to be done "now now", which means, well, now.) Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 1 04:22:44 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 00:22:44 -0400 Subject: antedating reinikaboo (1898) In-Reply-To: <20070928114457.ogs7c0656o4ks0w0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Is the etymology of "reinikaboo" known? [If not, I see a candidate.] -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.35/1039 - Release Date: 9/29/2007 9:46 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 08:43:06 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 04:43:06 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) Message-ID: Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. ... I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/cup_cake_cupcake/ ... Entry from October 01, 2007 Cup Cake (Cupcake) The origin of the "cup cake" (or "cupcake") is unknown, but the food name appears in American cookbooks, beginning in 1828. It is possible that the cupcake originated in the northeast, possibly in New York. In 2007, an effort was made to name the cupcake the official New York state snack. Wikipedia: Cupcake A cupcake or fairy cake is a small cake designed to serve one person, usually made in a small paper cup container. As with larger cakes, frosting and other cake decorations, such as sprinkles, are defining characteristics of modern cupcakes. Some scholars have defined the cupcake as: a muffin, with frosting on top. Cupcakes are often served during a celebration, such as children's classroom birthday parties. Additionally they can be served as an accompaniment to afternoon tea. They are a more convenient alternative to cake because they don't require utensils or dividing into pieces because they are smaller. A simple cupcake uses the same ingredients as most other standard cakes - incorporating butter, sugar, eggs, and flour. The name "cup" cakes or "measure" cakes is believed to have developed because of the use of the practice of measuring the ingredients using a standard-sized cup instead of the previous practice of weighing the ingredients. It is also possible that cupcakes came into being simply as smaller versions of the Victoria sponge cake, as the mixture required is exactly the same. The mixture is also the same as the quarter cake recipe, so called because it is made up of four ingredients in equal ratios; butter, self-raising flour, eggs and Castor sugar. Fox News New York Politician Proposes Bill to Help Rescue the Cupcake From School Bans Friday, September 28, 2007 By Catherine Donaldson-Evans AP Save the cupcake! That's what one New York state assemblyman intends to do with proposed legislation aimed at reversing several school districts' bans on the sweet treat at classroom parties, fundraising bake sales and other events. Assemblyman Michael Benjamin, a Democrat from the Bronx, N.Y., is introducing a bill Friday that would make the cupcake the official New York state snack ? and thus protect it from the bans that are becoming increasingly widespread as a way to combat childhood obesity and diabetes. "Making the cupcake the official state children's snack is my way of saying, 'Let's put some brakes on what's happening to the cupcake,'" Benjamin said in a phone interview. "The way the American eagle is the official national bird and it's illegal to harm one ? my thought is, you make the cupcake something similar, and leave the cupcake alone."' A number of schools in Long Island, N.Y., elsewhere in New York and across the country in states including Texas, New Jersey and California have put the kibosh on the mini-cakes for classroom birthday and other parties, claiming they're key offenders in the growing child obesity and diabetes problems. The new rules are also a way to comply with state nutrition guidelines, like the one passed in New York last spring. (Oxford English Dictionary) cup-cake orig. U.S., a cake baked from ingredients measured by the cupful, or baked in a small (freq. paper) cup; 1828 E. LESLIE Receipts 61 *Cup Cake. 1886 Harper's Mag. Dec. 134/2 Cousin Carry with her eternal cup-cake. 1887 M. E. WILKINS Humble Romance 271 Mis' Steele made some cup-cake to-day? She put a cup of butter and two whole cups of sugar in it. 1907 Mrs. Beeton's All about Cookery (new ed.) 216/2 Cup Cakes, Plain (American Recipe)..3 level cupfuls of flour, 1 cupful of sugar, a cupful of butter, 1 cupful of milk? Bake in shallow tins or small cups. Feeding America American Cookery by Amelia Simmons Hartford, CT: Printed for Simeon Butler, Northampton 1798 Pg. 37: A light cake to bake in small cups. Half a pound sugar, half a pound butter, rubbed (Pg. 38?ed.) into two pounds flour, one glass wine, one do. rose water, two do. emptins, a nutmeg, cinnamon and currants. Feeding America Seventy-Five Receipts for Pastry, Cakes, and Sweetmeats by Eliza Leslie Boston, MA: Munroe and Francis 1832 (first edition 1828) Pg. 61: CUP CAKE. Five eggs. Two large tea-cups full of molasses. The same of brown sugar rolled fine. The same of fresh butter. One cup of rich milk. Five cups of flour sifted. Half a cup of powdered allspice and cloves. Half a cup of ginger. Cut up the butter in the milk, and warm them slightly. Warm also the molasses, and stir it into the milk and butter: then stir in, gradually, the sugar, and set it away to get cool. Beat the eggs very light, and stir them into the mixture alternately with the flour. Add the ginger and other spice, and stir the whole very hard. Butter small tins, nearly fill them with the mixture, and bake the cakes in a moderate overn. 28 January 1828, Connecticut Courant (Hartford, CT), pg. 2: >From the N. York National Advocate. (...) The luxury of an old fashioned tea party, consisted of a cup of souchong, plate of toast, grated pot cheese, quince sweetmeats, family ginger-bread, (cup cake was a great treat,) now and then is sweat short cake hot from the griddle, all served upon a neatly polished cherry table around which the company sat, and partook with such freedom as at that period, was the surest guarantee of disinterested friendship. Feeding America The Frugal Housewife by Lydia Maria Francis Child Boston, MA: Carter and Hendee 1830 Pg. 75: CUP CAKE. Cup cake is about as good as pound cake, and is cheaper. One cup of butter, two cups of sugar, three cups of flour, and four eggs, well beat together, and baked in pans or cups. Bale twenty minutes and no more. Feeding America The Cook Not Mad (Author Unknown) Watertown, NY: Knowlton & Rice 1831 Pg. 35: Cup Cake Four cups of flour, three of sugar, two of butter, one of milk, small tea spoonful of pearlash, spoonful of ginger, essence of lemon. Google Books MacKenzie's Five Thousand Receipts in all the Useful and Domestic Arts by an American Physician Philadelphia: James Kay 1831 Pg. 415: Cup cake. 3 cups of sugar, 1 cup of butter, 2 tea spoons of pearlash, 3 eggs, 5 cups of flour; all together with as much spice as you please. Google Books The Young House-Keeper, Or, Thoughts on Food and Cookery by Wm. A. Alcott Fourth Stereotype Edition Boston, MA: George W. Light 1839 Pg. 404: CUP CAKE.?Two cups of cream or milk, two of sugar, two of unbolted wheat meal, one of rice flour, and a tea spoonful of salt. Beat it thoroughly, put it into cups, and bake it half an hour. Feeding America Directions for Cookery by Eliza Leslie Philadelphia, PA: E. L. Carey & Hart 1840 Pg. 354 WHITE CUP CAKE.?Measure one large coffee cup of cream or rich milk, (which, for this cake, is best when sour,) one cup of fresh butter; two cups of powdered white sugar; and four cups of sifted flour. Stir the butter and sugar together till quite light; then by degrees add the cream, alternately with half the flour. Beat five eggs as light as possible, and stir them into the mixture, alternately with the remainder of the flour. Add a grated nutmeg and a large tea-spoonful of powdered cinnamon, with eight drops of oil of lemon. Lastly, stir in a very small tea-spoonful of sal-aratus or pearl-ash, melted in a little vinegar or luke-warm water. Having stirred the whole very hard, put it into little tins; set them in a moderate oven, and bake them about twenty minutes. 10 April 1840, Baltimore (MD) Sun, pg. 2: ...gave Mrs. Goines a cup-cake and a custard,... Google Books The American Frugal Housewife by Lydia Maria Francis Child New York, NY: Samuel S. & William Wood Twenty-Seventh Edition 1841 Pg. 71: CUP CAKE. Cup cake is about as good as pound cake, and is cheaper. One cup of butter, two cups of sugar, three cups of flour, and four eggs, well beat together, and baked in pans or cups. Bake twenty minutes, and no more. Google Books The American Housewife: Containing the Most Valuable and Original Receipts in all the Various Branches of Cookery By An Experienced Lady New York, NY: Dayton and Saxton 1841 Pg. 68: Cup Cake. Mix three tea-cups of sugar with one and a half of butter. When white, beat three eggs, and stir them into the butter and sugar, together with three tea-cups of sifted flour, and rosewater or essence of lemon to the taste. Dissolve a teaspoonful of saleratus in a tea-cup of milk, strain it into the cake, then add three more tea-cups of sifted flour. Bake the cake immediately, either in cups of pans. Feeding America The Housekeepers' Assistant by Ann Allen Boston, MA: J. Munroe 1845 Pg. 20: CUP CAKE. 1 cup of butter, 2 cups of sugar, 3 cups of flour, 4 eggs, 1 cup of cream, 1 teaspoonful of saleratus. Season with nutmeg, essence of lemon, or cinnamon, to your own taste, and mix the ingredients together as above. Rosewater is always an improvement to cake; but when more liquid is added, it will be necessary to add more flour. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 10:28:18 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:28:18 -0400 Subject: antedating reinikaboo (1898) In-Reply-To: <20071001042244.SEGU660.mta10.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: Quoting "Douglas G. Wilson" : > Is the etymology of "reinikaboo" known? > > [If not, I see a candidate.] > > -- Doug Wilson Do tell. I have no serious candidate, nor have seen one. In case it's of interest, the text Jesse alluded to (I guess) is: Arizona Sketches...Why Wolfville Lied When Whisky Bill Died By ALFRED HENRY LEWIS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 23, 1896. p. 14 (1 page). It begins: "Lies in the lump [?] that away," said the Old Cattleman, apropos of some slight discussion we were engaged in, "is bad, an' make no doubt about it--that is, lies which is told malevolent. "Now, thar's a sort of rannikaboo liar on earth, an' I don't mind him nor his fabrications none whatever. That's one of these yere amiable gents who's merely aimin' to entertain you, an' sorter spreads himse'f an' gets plumb excursive in conversation, castin' loose from facts as vain things onworthy of him. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 10:15:47 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:15:47 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoting Barry Popik : > Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State > snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. > ... > I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone > have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? > ... Apparently the earliest in 19th C US Newspapers is The North American and Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia, PA) Thursday, April 09, 1840; Issue 325; col E City News Reported for the North American Category: News Children poisoned....a small custard pie and a cup cake.... Stephen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Mon Oct 1 14:46:02 2007 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:46:02 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne --On Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:10 pm -0400 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >> He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >> bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >> about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >> enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >> take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >> alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >> borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >> in Dutch of the "Seventies. >> >> -Wilson > > An anecdote along the same lines: > During my first week in Paris on my junior year > abroad in '63, with my many years of grade > school, high school, and college French under my > belt, I found myself in a subway station with the > compelling need to inquire of someone "O? est la > salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous > derision: "Une salle de bains dans le m?tro?!?" > Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out > the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I > eventually learned that I should have asked for > "la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have > done the job as well. > > LH > >> >> On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the >>> mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Doug Harris >>> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------- >>> >>> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >>> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >>> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >>> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >>> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >>> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >>> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >>> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >>> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >>> when that was the price of admission to a "public >>> convenience". >>> (the other) doug >>> >>> --- >>> >>> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >>> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >>> >>> Paul Johnston wrote: >>> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >>> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be >>> > fine. As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually >>> > got my questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by >>> > a repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >>> > Rellingford Road to get there." >>> > >>> > Paul Johnston >>> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> > >>> >> >>> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where >>> >> the subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same >>> >> issue? BB >>> >> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From msacks at THEWORLD.COM Mon Oct 1 14:06:32 2007 From: msacks at THEWORLD.COM (Mark Sacks) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:06:32 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200709292244.l8TAk9PK005417@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could simply have been a nerd. I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. Marc Sacks msacks at theworld.com The question, > > "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in > American > > was re-interpreted as: > > "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 14:12:25 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy Message-ID: i seem not to have gotten Michael Covarrubias's original posting on this expression and so repeated the very item he posted there. my apologies. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 1 13:24:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:24:35 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. Joel At 10/1/2007 10:46 AM, you wrote: >If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet >misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue >on Separated by a Common Language: > > > >Lynne > >--On Sunday, September 30, 2007 8:10 pm -0400 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 5:19 PM -0400 9/30/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>At a party in Amsterdam, I once asked my host where the bathroom was. >>>He graciously pointed it out to me. (We'd all been drinking quite a >>>bit, so the alcohol probably prevented him from noticing any strange >>>about such a request in the middle of a party.) I went there and, sure >>>enough, I found myself in the bathroom. However, my intention was to >>>take not a bath, but a leak. The second request got through my host's >>>alcoholic haze and he realized that what I mean was the >>>borrowed-from-BrE W[ater]C[loset], pronounced approximately "way say" >>>in Dutch of the "Seventies. >>> >>>-Wilson >> >>An anecdote along the same lines: >>During my first week in Paris on my junior year >>abroad in '63, with my many years of grade >>school, high school, and college French under my >>belt, I found myself in a subway station with the >>compelling need to inquire of someone "O? est la >>salle de bains?" This was met with incredulous >>derision: "Une salle de bains dans le m?tro?!?" >>Finally someone took pity on me and pointed out >>the relevant door with "W.C." on it. I >>eventually learned that I should have asked for >>"la toilette", although [dubl at vese] would have >>done the job as well. >> >>LH >> >>> >>>On 9/30/07, Doug Harris wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the >>>>mail header ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Doug Harris >>>> Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >>>> >>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>-------- >>>> >>>> As well they might (ask that question). As, similarly, >>>> they are inclined to ask for "bathrooms" when having >>>> no intention whatsoever of bathing, being befuddled by >>>> getting French fries as part of their fish and chips >>>> order, and pondering where locals are going when they >>>> announce, as some sometimes do, they're going to the >>>> _loo_. (Less frequently, these days, or so I'd imagine, >>>> the loo-bound might note s/he is going "to spend a >>>> penny", a once-common phrase reflecting a long-gone day >>>> when that was the price of admission to a "public >>>> convenience". >>>> (the other) doug >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> LOL. Doug Harris said something to a similar effect. I was of course >>>> simply inventing a sentence that I thought a tourist might ask. BB >>>> >>>> Paul Johnston wrote: >>>> > Assuming they'd know what a subway station is. A subway is an >>>> > underpass over a road, though "Tube/Underground station" would be >>>> > fine. As someone who did use to ask questions like that, I usually >>>> > got my questions answered as i would here, but sometimes preceded by >>>> > a repetition. "The Tube Station? Oh, you'll have to go down >>>> > Rellingford Road to get there." >>>> > >>>> > Paul Johnston >>>> > On Sep 29, 2007, at 3:04 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> I have heard that in England questions such as "Do you know where >>>> >> the subway station is?" are considered yes/no. Is this the same >>>> >> issue? BB >>>> >> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>>-- >>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>----- >>> -Sam'l Clemens >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language >Arts B135 >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QN > >phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 >http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Mon Oct 1 14:15:45 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:15:45 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011324.l91Albqn001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. ---------- If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where English is the principal language. I perceive their language (and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? (the other) doug ================ Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 14:46:56 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:46:56 -0700 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <021c01c80435$8f465c70$03fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Doug Harris wrote: > Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings > such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, > and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this one looks like female/male. "talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. "steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 1 14:19:32 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:19:32 -0400 Subject: Reinikaboo (speculative etymology) In-Reply-To: <20071001082314.dhuws4opw0gsgs4o@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: This is just a possibility. "Reinikaboo" would seem to mean "prank" or "scam" or so. There is an old European folklore figure, a trickster fox commonly called Reynard. The German name is generally Reine[c]ke. Apparently Dickens popularized this figure in "The Story of Reineke the Fox" [in _Household Words_ (1851 I think)], apparently a prose translation of Goethe's epic poem "Reineke Fuchs" (1794). There were also other English translations of "Reineke Fuchs". The Reynard story was also published (in German/Dutch) in other forms during the 19th century, with titles "Reineke Fuchs", "Reineke Vos", etc. "Reineke" is a plausible etymon for a word like "renicky" which is one of the forms given in DARE. This could have been taken from Dickens or from some other version of the story, or from an intermediate source (e.g., children's book, stage play). Possibly the optional/variable "-boo" is just "boo" (cf. "peekaboo", etc.). Or maybe it's descended from "Fuchs" or equivalent. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: 10/1/2007 10:20 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Oct 1 14:28:32 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:28:32 -0500 Subject: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200709292234.l8TAk9Io030133@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE And the first recorded tennis game was in the Bible: Joseph served in Pharaoh's court. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis R. Preston > Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 5:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > You obviously have not heard the old joke about why the Wise > Men were dressed in Firemen's clothes - the came from afar. > > dInIs (who finds the really heavy duty accents here in Michigan) > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Doug Harris > >Subject: Y'all Say WHUTTTT? > >------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > >-------- > > > >'Got a phone call yesterday on our business line, clearly > from a call > >center, based on the amount of chatter in the background. I couldn't > >hear who the caller said she was representing, and I was totally > >befuddled by her question: > >"Who's yer far chiff?" > >I asked several times for her to repeat, then gave up in > frustration, > >said I didn't know, and hung up. > >As I did so, I recalled that for some odd reason, that line has been > >known to be called by people seeking our tiny village's fire > >department. > >The light went on: She was enquiring as to our _fire chief_. > >--- > >She's got _some_ heavy-duty accent! > > (the other) doug > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 1 12:23:14 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:23:14 -0400 Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) Message-ID: If Live Search showing The Kansas Historical Quarterly, Autumn 1960, "Some Notes on Kansas Cow Town Police Officers and Gun Fighters," N.H. Miller and J.W Snell, p.302 f, here p.326 quoting the Ford County Globe, September 5, 1879, can be relied upon (I guess yes): [headline:] A Day of Carnival ....last Friday in Dodge City.... extricating ourselves from that stupid lethargy which had fallen upon us of late, and were giving vent to our uncurbed hilarity--"getting to the booze joint," as it were, in good shape, and "making a ranikaboo play for ourselves." We speak in the plural number.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 12:16:11 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:16:11 -0400 Subject: An "ode" Message-ID: A reviewer in yesterday's Boston Globe writes: "... a he-said, she-said dialogue ... called, ... _in ode to_ Chekhov, "He and She." I'd write, "in honor of," "in homage to," "as an hommage to," but usage may have changed since the last time that I had to write other than to a friend or a sibling. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From tpratt at UPEI.CA Mon Oct 1 12:40:18 2007 From: tpratt at UPEI.CA (Terry Pratt) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:40:18 -0300 Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award In-Reply-To: <200710010400.l8UAkGDV018202@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award for the support of lexicographical study and research is again being offered by the Dictionary Society of North America for 2008. Funded by DSNA member and fellow Laurence Urdang, the Award will support one or more lexicographical projects during the year 2008 with awards ranging from $500 to $2500. Applicants must be current members of the Dictionary Society of North America. The budget may include costs of travel, tuition, materials, subsistence, and related expenses. The proposal should include the following parts: Project name. Applicant's name and address. A statement of the project's immediate goals and expected long- range results. A description of the methodology or procedures to be used. A summary budget of total expenses for the project. An identification of other sources of support available for the project. A one-page biographical resume for the applicant. The proposal should total no more than three pages, single-spaced, including the one-page resume. The proposal should be sent (with a self-addressed, stamped postcard for acknowledgment) to current DSNA President PROF. TERRY PRATT, 932 PETERS ROAD, RR#3, BONSHAW, P.E.I. C0A 1C0, CANADA (address must be all in caps) or e-mailed to tpratt at upei.ca. It must be received by December 1, 2007. Awards will be bestowed and full payments sent early in 2008. The Society requests that it be sent copies of any publications arising from the Award. 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award The two 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award winners are Dabney A. Bankert (Department of English, James Madison University) is a professor of Medieval English, and Stefan Dollinger (Department of English, University of British Columbia), editor for the revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles. Professor Bankert will use her award in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities to examine the correspondence between Bosworth and Dutch philologists and theologians concerning the making of his famous Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language during the period 1829-1840. Dr. Dollinger is undertaking a revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms. The award will facilitate examining entries in the letters ?A? and ?C? where errors had been discussed in correspondence between the publisher and editors in 1969. The Dictionary of Canadianisms is a major source of data about English in North America. Terry Pratt 932 Peters Road, Elmwood RR#3 Bonshaw, PEI C0A 1C0 Canada 902-675-3672 FAX 902-566-0363 tpratt at upei.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Oct 1 15:20:33 2007 From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET (David Donnell) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:20:33 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011415.l91AmBxV001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The favorite of my 88 year old mom, from southeastern MO: "pointers & setters" (The latter being the gender which most often 'sets' down to pee. Of course.) DD Missourian in NYC >---------- > >Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. >---------- >If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to >have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where >English is the principal language. I perceive their language >(and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty >sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? >(the other) doug > >================ >Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or >"Ladies' Room" for public facilities any >more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 1 15:19:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:19:57 +0000 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: I agree Surely the Gricean principles are not limited to the USA. In a parallel instance of pragmatic uncooperativeness: Salesman: Hi! I'm Willy Lowman and I am selling shoes. . Resistant, sarcastic stranger: I.m not. Perhaps "Can you use" is an American idiom not used elsewhere (perhaps not). But it seems to me that most of the examples of "miscommunication" offered in this thread are no more than amusing examples of nerdiness, sarcasm, insufficient context, or in attention. ------Original Message------ From: Mark Sacks Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 1, 2007 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Two other countries separated by a common language I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could simply have been a nerd. I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. Marc Sacks msacks at theworld.com The question, > > "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in > American > > was re-interpreted as: > > "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 13:38:22 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:38:22 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011324.l91Albqn001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or > "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any > more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > > Joel Asking for the "Gents'" or the "Ladys'" is pretty common here in England. I just don't seem to have picked up the habit. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 13:30:00 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:30:00 -0400 Subject: Job titles Message-ID: Job titles supplied by a 77-year-old woman who holds this job (well, it's not as though her clients actually *see* her!): "Phone-sex conversationalist" or "Fantasy phone actress" -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 1 13:35:48 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:35:48 -0700 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10709301914j61b934a8o32d392f4c17c95c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( > http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song > lyrics as > transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's > spelling and > punctuation are already pretty bad. > > my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me > were > friends like you, it took me a while to figure out that the model was "go-to guy". does Haystak actually say "gold tooth guy", or was this a mishearing? > This other one is unclear ( > http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): > > Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting > conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) also, at http://girlfawkes1.blogspot.com/ for 9/28/07: I came across a new saying a couple of days ago. I was walking behind two guys on Ludlow Ave, and I was shamelessly eavesdropping on their conversation. One guy was talking about how he used to be the best football player on his high school team. He was saying how he would do anything for the team and the team really counted on him to do whatever they needed. Then he said something that truly perplexed me. He said, "Man, I was the Gold Tooth Guy." What? What on earth could this possibly mean? He clearly said Gold Tooth Guy. His friend just nodded in recognition,so he must have known what it meant. Then I realized that this man meant that he was the Go To Guy on the team. [followed by query about the correct linguistic term, and a discussion of what "go-to guy" means] .... otherwise, the hits seem to be about guys who are picked out by their having a gold tooth/gold teeth. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Oct 1 15:30:39 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:30:39 +0100 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011447.l91AkiF7010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i > ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this > one looks like female/male. > > "talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one > order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. > > "steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more > than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially > unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. > > ... while heifers are presumed to be barely sexually mature. Chris Waigl neither-nor ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Mon Oct 1 15:43:12 2007 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:43:12 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011530.l91AlbG7001223@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm reminded of the man whose ambition was to open a restaurant, label the restrooms "Clams" and "Oysters", and watch people go nuts trying to figure out which one to use. Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 1 15:02:18 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:02:18 +0000 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" ... Probably does not translate well (eg, "salle d'hommes"?) ------Original Message------ From: Chris F Waigl Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 1, 2007 8:38 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Two other countries separated by a common language Joel S. Berson wrote: > Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or > "Ladies' Room" for public facilities any > more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. > > Joel Asking for the "Gents'" or the "Ladys'" is pretty common here in England. I just don't seem to have picked up the habit. Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 1 14:24:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: Cup cake (1828) -- another 1828 In-Reply-To: <20071001061547.565gbgmnwgocggk8@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Early American Newspapers gives me 28 hits for "cupcake" before 1841, but they are full of ... no, not cream, nor what you're expecting (the leavings of the pony), but false positives. One "caresses" and several "Captain"s, "superior"s, and "Chesapeake"s (well, the last is somewhat close!) But the last of the 28 is a success, equidating the OED: The luxury of an old fashioned tea party, consisted of a cup of souchong, plate of toast, grated pot cheese, quince sweetmeats, family ginger-bread, (cup cake was a great treat,) now and then a sweet short cake hot from the griddle, all served upon a neatly polished cherry table around which the company sat, and partook with such freedom as at that period, was the surest guarantee of disinterested friendship. How different are assemblages of the kind in our day. Connecticut Courant, 28 Jan. 1828, page 2, col. 6. [The article is "from the N. York National Advocate" and begins "Ancient and Modern--When we contemplate how materially times have altered, within fifty years ..." -- hinting that one should look for cup cakes in New York as early as circa 1780!?] Joel At 10/1/2007 06:15 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Quoting Barry Popik : > >>Someone has suggested the "cup cake" as the official New York State >>snack. Yes, legislators really do have nothing better to do. >>... >>I thought I'd posted stuff here before, but I guess not. Does anyone >>have pre-1840s "cup cake" cites? How's 19th Century U.S. Newspapers? >>... > >Apparently the earliest in 19th C US Newspapers is >The North American and Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia, PA) Thursday, >April 09, >1840; Issue 325; col E > City News Reported for the North American >Category: News >Children poisoned....a small custard pie and a cup cake.... > >Stephen > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 1 16:39:13 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:39:13 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:20 AM -0400 10/1/07, David Donnell wrote: >The favorite of my 88 year old mom, from southeastern MO: "pointers & setters" > >(The latter being the gender which most often 'sets' down to pee. Of course.) > ...and a third door marked "poinsetters", for shy pre-op transsexuals. LH > >>---------- >> >>Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >>such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >>and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. >>---------- >>If I had to guess, I'd imagine Australia is more likely to >>have similar useinisms (sic) than any other country where >>English is the principal language. I perceive their language >>(and use of it) as being more "colorful" (in a non-dirty >>sense) than most others. Is that a fair or reasonable assumption? >>(the other) doug >> >>================ >>Doesn't anyone ask for the "Men's Room" or >>"Ladies' Room" for public facilities any >>more? It's what I see on the doors in the U.S. >> >>Joel >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 1 18:48:20 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 14:48:20 -0400 Subject: Gold Tooth Guy In-Reply-To: <200710011336.l91AmBsh001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here, it might depend upon race. There has never been a time when gold teeth have been out of style among blacks. (I was surprised to read in some history of fashion or other that, in the Nineteenth and early Twentieth centuries, bejeweled, gold crowned teeth were also quite popular among le haut-mond blanc.) When I was a child, there was a family friend who had gold crowns on all thirty-two. Having a gold tooth or gold teeth wouldn't necessarily pick anybody out of a crowd of black people, whence the addition of gemstones, etc., to one's grill, in order to stand out. I have three gold teeth, myself, and I'm expecting to get three more. Admittedly, I'm not doing it merely as a fashion statement, since the gold crowns cover and will cover only damaged molars and premolars. But, when the offa-donnis told me that I could get either gold or the other stuff for the same astonishing co-pay of 500 bucks, it took me only the time necessary to fire up my speech organs to go for the gold. -Wilson On 10/1/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: Gold Tooth Guy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sep 30, 2007, at 7:14 PM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > This googit looks like a genuine eggcorn, or at least a mondegreen ( > > http://www.alwayslyrics.com/result.php/97128).This site has song > > lyrics as > > transcribed by whoever puts them up, and this transcriber's > > spelling and > > punctuation are already pretty bad. > > > > my gold tooth guy i could depend on you,only people out to get me > > were > > friends like you, > > it took me a while to figure out that the model was "go-to guy". > does Haystak actually say "gold tooth guy", or was this a mishearing? > > > This other one is unclear ( > > http://datinginbrooklyn.blogspot.com/2006_05_01_archive.html): > > > > Then, yesterday afternoon, back in NY, I had a very interesting > > conversation with my co-worker (gold tooth guy) > > also, at http://girlfawkes1.blogspot.com/ for 9/28/07: > > I came across a new saying a couple of days ago. I was walking behind > two guys on Ludlow Ave, and I was shamelessly eavesdropping on their > conversation. One guy was talking about how he used to be the best > football player on his high school team. He was saying how he would > do anything for the team and the team really counted on him to do > whatever they needed. Then he said something that truly perplexed me. > He said, "Man, I was the Gold Tooth Guy." What? What on earth could > this possibly mean? He clearly said Gold Tooth Guy. His friend just > nodded in recognition,so he must have known what it meant. Then I > realized that this man meant that he was the Go To Guy on the team. > [followed by query about the correct linguistic term, and a > discussion of what "go-to guy" means] > > .... > > otherwise, the hits seem to be about guys who are picked out by their > having a gold tooth/gold teeth. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 1 20:15:30 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:15:30 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011410.l91AmBwR001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Speech-act jokes are even beneath puns. dInIs PS: No offense Larry. >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Mark Sacks >Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't think this is American-vs-Australian confusion. The answerer could >simply have been a nerd. > >I long time ago I was running a folk-dance party in a dorm hall at MIT. In >the late afternoon, I noticed it was getting dark and asked a math major >who knew the facility where the lights were. He immediately pointed to the >ceiling; and no, he was not being deliberately funny. > >Marc Sacks >msacks at theworld.com > >The question, >> >> "Can you use one of these?" ["Would you like to have one of these?"] in >> American >> >> was re-interpreted as: >> >> "Do you have the ability to use of one of these?" in Australian. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 1 20:17:28 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:17:28 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710011447.l91AkiF7010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: arnold, My UG students a year ago didn't even know the sex of cows, let alone the ball-less status of steers. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Oct 1, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Doug Harris wrote: > >> Except, of course, when you're seeing cutsie somethings >> such as cowboys / cowgirls, steers / heifers, jacks /jills, >> and my personal favorite (!): talkers / gawkers. > >this would be the verbal women / visual men stereotypes, right? i >ask because the other pairs are in the order male/female, while this >one looks like female/male. > >"talkers" and "gawkers" are often paired with one another, in one >order or the other, but without reference to sex differences. > >"steers" vs. "heifers" is on odd pairing, since the words do more >than distinguish male and female bovines. "steers" is especially >unfortunate, since steers are *castrated*. > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 1 22:13:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:13:16 -0700 Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) In-Reply-To: <200710011223.l91AmBnJ001242@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to the HDAS files the 1879 quote is correct. JL ote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Stephen Goranson Subject: further antedating (?) ranikaboo (1879) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Live Search showing The Kansas Historical Quarterly, Autumn 1960, "Some Notes on Kansas Cow Town Police Officers and Gun Fighters," N.H. Miller and J.W Snell, p.302 f, here p.326 quoting the Ford County Globe, September 5, 1879, can be relied upon (I guess yes): [headline:] A Day of Carnival ....last Friday in Dodge City.... extricating ourselves from that stupid lethargy which had fallen upon us of late, and were giving vent to our uncurbed hilarity--"getting to the booze joint," as it were, in good shape, and "making a ranikaboo play for ourselves." We speak in the plural number.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 2 00:22:13 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:22:13 -0400 Subject: Capital Crime In-Reply-To: A<001501c8024a$98d9dfb0$6701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: I'd say it's just an error. Black's Law Dictionary defines "capital crime" or "capital offense" as "A crime for which the death penalty may be imposed." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Capital Crime Is "capital crime" being defined as homicide, as opposed to any crime which is punishable by death? Or is the following just an error? From today's Slate, "Deception at the Supreme Court," by Thomas Goldstein, http://www.slate.com/id/2174854/pagenum/2/: "The defendant in this case is the only person in the country who is on death row for a noncapital crime." (The case in question is a child rape case, which is punishable by death in Louisiana.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Oct 2 02:25:59 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:25:59 -0400 Subject: Capital Crime In-Reply-To: <200710020022.l91KAOAL010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And, _Words and Phrases Judicially Defined_ (Vol 1, p 958) states: "A capital crime is one for which the punishment of death is inflicted. Walker v. State 13. S. W. 860 , 28 Tex. App 503" Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 2 10:51:38 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:51:38 -0400 Subject: the 1938 "Bob's yer uncle" story Message-ID: "Street Corner" by Tom Burns has, to my knowledge, the earliest reported quotation of "Bob's yer uncle" (Partridge listed "Bob's your uncle" in 1937, without providing a quotation). It is in New Writing, edited by John Lehmann with the assistance of Christopher Isherwood and Stephen Spender [the latter the source of the OED 1946 quotation] (New York: Alfred A. Knopf [and London: Hogarth Press] Fall 1938 {=new series 1]). According to "About the Contributors" p. xi "Tom Burns is the author of two stories in [old series] No. 4 A Bit of Fun and Back Rent. he was born in Bethnal Green in 1913, and has worked in London shops, in the Post Office, and as a private school teacher. from pages 72-73: ....'There's that crowd of tarts. Let's get past 'em.' ....A tall girl in the middle turned her head as they came near. "H'm, look out, girls," she said. 'The army's 'ere.' The others turned and giggled shrilly as the youths marched past. 'Bob's yer uncle,' shouted another girl, very suddenly. They all shrieked loud with laughter. [p. 73] ''Ow's yer Aunt Fanny?' called back Frankie, and the shrieks came loud again. "Woo-oo, woo-oo'--Doobsy led a mock chorus.... "Saucy effs,' said the tall girl.... 'Oo, yer bitch,' shouted Frankie.... 'Buch o' toerags,' said the tall girl.... "Ah, eff 'em,' said Walter. 'Stuck-up cows. Think they're all Joan Crawford when they get uhside the factory.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Tue Oct 2 13:28:45 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:28:45 -0700 Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award In-Reply-To: <200710011215.l91AkicZ010911@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Terry Pratt Thanks for posting the notice about the Award. At the end of the first block of text, your address is partly blocked by some overprinting, which makes the former illegible. L. Urdang Terry Pratt wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Terry Pratt Subject: Laurence Urdang--DSNA Award ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award for the support of lexicographical study and research is again being offered by the Dictionary Society of North America for 2008. Funded by DSNA member and fellow Laurence Urdang, the Award will support one or more lexicographical projects during the year 2008 with awards ranging from $500 to $2500. Applicants must be current members of the Dictionary Society of North America. The budget may include costs of travel, tuition, materials, subsistence, and related expenses. The proposal should include the following parts: Project name. Applicant's name and address. A statement of the project's immediate goals and expected long- range results. A description of the methodology or procedures to be used. A summary budget of total expenses for the project. An identification of other sources of support available for the project. A one-page biographical resume for the applicant. The proposal should total no more than three pages, single-spaced, including the one-page resume. The proposal should be sent (with a self-addressed, stamped postcard for acknowledgment) to current DSNA President PROF. TERRY PRATT, 932 PETERS ROAD, RR#3, BONSHAW, P.E.I. C0A 1C0, CANADA (address must be all in caps) or e-mailed to tpratt at upei.ca. It must be received by December 1, 2007. Awards will be bestowed and full payments sent early in 2008. The Society requests that it be sent copies of any publications arising from the Award. 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award The two 2007 Laurence Urdang-DSNA Award winners are Dabney A. Bankert (Department of English, James Madison University) is a professor of Medieval English, and Stefan Dollinger (Department of English, University of British Columbia), editor for the revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles. Professor Bankert will use her award in Amsterdam and other Dutch cities to examine the correspondence between Bosworth and Dutch philologists and theologians concerning the making of his famous Dictionary of the Anglo-Saxon Language during the period 1829-1840. Dr. Dollinger is undertaking a revision of the Dictionary of Canadianisms. The award will facilitate examining entries in the letters ?A? and ?C? where errors had been discussed in correspondence between the publisher and editors in 1969. The Dictionary of Canadianisms is a major source of data about English in North America. Terry Pratt 932 Peters Road, Elmwood RR#3 Bonshaw, PEI C0A 1C0 Canada 902-675-3672 FAX 902-566-0363 tpratt at upei.ca ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 2 15:17:51 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:17:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? Message-ID: What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? One book treats it as a real women's club ("Social New York Under the Georges", Esther Singleton (1902), pp. 383-4). Another treats it as a political men's club ("Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society (1876), pp. 30-31). Stevens notes "frequent mention" in the two NY newspapers of the period, which supported different political factions. But a newspaper article, included as humor by W. Howland Kenney (Laughter in the Wilderness: Early American Humor to 1783, pp. 185-6) -- which article made its way into the "Manual of the corporation of the city of new york"! -- certainly seems to have sexual connotations. Perhaps there was a real "hunc over de" club (of men), and the newspaper article is a scurrilous political satire on its purpose? I quote some portions of the 25 Feb. 1736 (NS) New York Weekly Journal article: [The male author writes that he found himself ,at the house of a female acquaintance, in the company of a large number of women between the ages of 15 and 50. He was asked to become their secretary, and took notes of their queries to the editor of the newspaper.] "Mrs. --- a Maiden Lady, of middle Age, says She hears there is a Meeting ... every Tuesday, at four certain Houses in this City, which is called the HUNC OVER DE Club, but having ever been cautious of her Character, and not knowing what is meant by the Game of HUNC OVER DE, for she understands it is a sport [asks for advice as to her conduct]. "Mrs. ---, a Widow of about Five and Thirty, says ... that, as it is described to her, there is no Difficultly in their Sport but what may be soon acquired, that she conceives she understands it well, and proposes another Society of Hunc over de's to be established by the Company present, with a competent Number of Males, but submits it to your Advice, and the Opinion of the younger Ladies, for the Elder she thinks are less interested in the Matter. "Mrs. ---, an English Lady of full Age, says she has been acquainted with many People ... and has played at most Games with them, that she never heard of any by the Name of Hunc Over De ... "Miss. ---, a young Lady of agreeable Person, who thinks by a ... piece of Caprice she has been excluded from being one of the Hunc over De's already established, desires to return Thanks for her lucky Escape, but she at the same Time declares she is ready in an Orthodox Manner to be as merry as any Body, and hopes you will advices the young Gentlemen of the Town, to think more of their Belles and less of their Bottles." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET Tue Oct 2 18:27:30 2007 From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Se=E1n_Fitzpatrick?=) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:27:30 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: Re: spend a penny "Hit the bogs" was current in Brum (Birmingham, Eng.) circa 1969. Se?n Fitzpatrick It?s a Gnostic thing. You wouldn't understand. http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 2 19:03:20 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:03:20 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." Gerald Cohen University of Missouri-Rolla -----Original Message----- From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue on Separated by a Common Language: Lynne ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 2 19:23:08 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:23:08 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE5804C@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: At 10/2/2007 03:03 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote: >Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my >campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a >fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded >like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can >tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." A funny story, particularly to me, who grew up in New York where "gods" do not hang around libraries, museums, etc. (except perhaps as unresponsive statues), and who has been wandering in the innards of Widener for several years past, looking not only for books but also for men's rooms. But--at least today--one will only find gods at the entrances; handier sources will be the librarians and assistants. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 2 20:22:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710021903.l92IjYU8032225@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have understood it as: "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to earth." He must have been totally discombobulated. There was a roughly similar case at the Widener Library circ desk, when I was running it. An English male student assistant was attempting to "chat up" - that's the way they say it over there, to paraphrase a local Boston woman who was mocking English as it's spoken in California - an American female student assistant. In the course of his conversating, he happened to speak the word, "button." She laughingly interrupted his rap, asking, "Buh-tun [b^t at n], Eddie? Buh-tun?" The English kid, totally missing the point, merely replied "Yes," and tried to continue. The girl, now laughing out loud, repeated her question, "Buh-tun, Eddie, buh-tun?" Now completely confused by her laughter and not understanding at all what was being questioned, he again replied merely, "Yes." At this point, I told her to stop that. The poor English kid, I'm afraid, never did understand that the American girl was mocking his - dare I say it? - "English" accent. Speakers of dialect A tend to forget that, to a speaker of dialect B, the oddities of dialect B don't exist. Rather, it's dialect A that has the oddities. When I was a kid, BE speakers in Marshall, Texas, were annoyed by my, to them, snooty "proper" manner of speaking. Back in Saint Louis, people laughed at my "country" accent. I quickly became bi-dialectal. It probably goes without saying that black Marshallites considered the speech of black farmers from surrounding Harrison county to be the "country" dialect and not their own speech. -Wilson -Wilson On 10/2/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here's another one. Some years ago a female faculty member from my campus visited the Harvard library to do research there and asked a fellow where the ladies room is. His Boston-accented reply sounded like "The gods can tell you." She replied: "I know the gods can tell me. I was looking for someone a bit closer to earth." > > Gerald Cohen > University of Missouri-Rolla > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lynne Murphy [mailto:m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK] > Sent: Monday, 01 October, 2007 10:46 > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > > If anyone's interested in more stories of international toilet > misunderstandings, I covered the toilet/bathroom/restroom/WC (etc.) issue > on Separated by a Common Language: > > > > Lynne > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Tue Oct 2 21:04:07 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:04:07 -0500 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language Message-ID: No, she didn't say what the local's response was. Her story about the incident ended with her reply about looking for someone closer to earth. IAC, it's possible that in her primary concern for finding the ladies room she didn't pay much attention to the fellow's reaction. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have understood it as: "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to earth." He must have been totally discombobulated. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 01:53:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:53:32 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: Clarence Thomas said in an interview that his grandfather used this phrase; perhaps it's in Thomas's book. ... Is it in the ProQuest Black Newspapers database? ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) African-American Proverbs in Context by Anand Prahlad - Literary Criticism - 1996 - 292 pages Page 239 Hard times will make a monkey eat cayenne pepper. ... Usage: "If a monkey had gone a long time without eating, he would eat whatever became available to ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) If He Hollers Let Him Go: A Novel - Google Books Resultby Chester B. Himes - 2002 - Fiction - 216 pages The white folks* pressure would make a monkey eat cayenne pepper?once. 1 tried to shake it from my mind, looked about me. I'd gone out past Washington. ... ... ... (GOOGLE) Hillsdale College - IssueMy grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. ... [June 1994 essay by Clarence Thomas. Full quote below. -- ed.] ... I know there are those who hear me with a smug arrogance that only untarnished youth or insulated cynicism can generate. But I am unimpressed with this uninformed and misguided arrogance; I have seen it and I have been there. My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. That is the one university we all get to attend?tuition free. And learning the lessons that we must learn cannot forever be avoided by sweeping our difficulties under the rug of societal blame. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 04:39:13 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:39:13 -0400 Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) Message-ID: HAMBURG SANDWICH ... I've just added an 1898 "Hamburg sandwich" cite from Bismarck, North Dakota. Both the New York Times and the Yale Daily News printed earlier this year that the "hamburger" was invented at Louis Lunch at New Haven, CT, in 1900. This is obviously not true, but neither publication printed my letters to the editor to correct a simple error of fact. Don't know why I bothered to write them. ... The "hamburger" was clearly (as Texas legislators have proved) invented and/or popularized by Fletcher Davis of Athens, Texas at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, but we now have these: ... 1883--Hamburgers (New York, NY) 1893--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Reno, NV) 1894--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Chicago, IL) 1894--Hamburger steak sandwiches (Los Angeles, CA) 1895--Sandwich...Hamburger steak (Honolulu, HI) 1898--Hamburg sandwich (Bismarck, ND) 1901--Hamburger sandwiches (Omaha, NE) 1902--Hamburger sandwich (Des Moines, IA) 1902--Hamburger sandwich (Davenport, IA) 1902--Hamburger sandwiches (Decatur, IL) 1903--Hamburger sandwich (Fort Worth, TX) ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/hamburger/ ... 16 December 1898, Bismarck (ND) Daily Tribune, pg. 3: Hamburg sandwich....15 Hamburg steak....35 Hamburg steak, with eggs....50 ... ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TAXICAB ... Grant Barrett has informed me that the 1899 New York Times "taxicab" ProQuest database citation is in error, and I've removed it from my website. I hate it when he does that and I have to revise old work. ... I seem to have found a June 1906 NewspaperArchive "taxi cab" citation from Hammond, Indiana (see below) that looks like a small go-cart. Could that citation be legitimate or is that one bad as well? ... It's clear that the word "taxicab" was in common use in London in the spring of 1907 and was not "coined" by New Yorker Harry N. Allen in the fall of 1907. The Wikipedia entry needs to be changed, but I'm not allowed to cite any of my own work, so I don't feel like editing it for free (but someone else can). The New York Times also falsely said that Harry N. Allen coined the word "taxicab." ... ... ... http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/06/podcast-100-years-of-taxis/ September 7th, 2007 9:37 am Allen may have been credited with coining the word "taxicab," but he was probably credited inaccurately. The first appearance of the word so far found is in a British newspaper in March of that same year in a story about the start of taxicab service in London, according to the Oxford English Dictionary and my own digging in newspaper archives. The word "taxicab" quickly traveled to the US and appeared in the Chicago Tribune as early as March 31, 1907, in a story specifically about London taxicabs. An anecdote told in the Tribune story about taxicabs in Paris bears repeating. "The Parisian fiacres show a little ticket 'Libre' when disengaged. The Parisian joker in these circumstances approached and cried: "Cocher, ?tes-vous libre?" Cocher would eagerly reply: "Oui, monsieur!" to which the joker would respond with: "Alors, vive la libert?!" ? Posted by Grant Barrett ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/taxi_the_word_taxicab_and_the_yellow_color/ ... Entry from June 11, 2005 Taxi (the word "taxicab" and the "yellow" color) It has been said that Harry N. Allen coined the word "taxicab" in the fall of 1907, and that he also introduced the color "yellow" to his vehicles. I think that's wrong on both counts. Paris and then London both had "taxicabs" before they were introduced to New York in October 1907. The word "taxi" is short for "taximeter" and "cab" short for "cabriolet." Harry Allen's cabs were red. The W. C. P. Taxicab Company introduced the yellow cab in New York in the spring of 1909. Wikipedia: Taxicab Taxicab, short forms taxi or cab, is a type of public transport for a single passenger, or small group of passengers, typically for a non-shared ride. A taxicab is a vehicle for hire which conveys passengers between locations of their choice. (In most other modes of public transport, the pick-up and drop-off locations are determined by the service provider, not by the passenger.) Although types of vehicles and methods of regulation, hiring, dispatching, and negotiating payment differ significantly from country to country, many common characteristics exist. (...) History Horse-drawn for-hire hackney carriage services began operating in both Paris and London in the early 17th century. Royal proclamations in both cities regulated the number of carriages - the first example of taxicab regulation. In the 19th century, Hansom cabs largely replaced the older designs because of their improved speed and safety. Although battery-powered vehicles enjoyed a brief success in Paris,London, and New York in the 1890s, the 1891 invention by German Wilhelm Bruhn of the taximeter (the familiar mechanical and now often electronic device that calculates the fare in most taxicabs) ushered in the modern taxi. The first modern meter-equipped taxicab was the Daimler Victoria, built by Gottlieb Daimler in 1897; the first motorized taxi company began operating in Stuttgart the same year. Petrol powered taxicabs began operating in Paris in 1899, in London in1903, and in New York in 1907. The New York taxicabs were imported from France by businessperson Harry N. Allen. Allen was the first person to paint his taxicabs yellow, after learning that yellow is the colour most easily seen from a distance. Wikipedia: Yellow In some countries, taxicabs are commonly yellow. This practice apparently began in New York City, where taxi owner Harry N. Allen painted his taxis yellow after learning that yellow is the color most easily seen at a distance. See List of taxi cab colours. (Oxford English Dictionary) taxi, n. Colloquial abbreviation, orig. of TAXIMETER, and hence, more usu., of TAXI-CAB. 1907 Daily Chron. 26 Mar. 6/7 Every journalist..has his idea of what the vehicle should be called. It has been described as the (1) taxi, (2) motor-cab, (3) taxi-cab, (4) taximo,..(7) taximeter-cab. 1908 Ibid. 4 Feb. 4/7 Within the past few months the 'taxi' has been the name given to the motor-cab. Taxi-cab, taxicab A cab for public hire, fitted with a taximeter; esp. an automobile or motor-cab so furnished. 1907 Daily Chron. 28 Mar. 2/5 The 'taxicab', as the new taximeter motor-cab is called, is fast becoming a familiar feature in the streets of London. 1907 Ibid. 3 May 8/3 London has taken kindly to the Taxicab. 1908 Westm. Gaz. 7 May 4/2 How much the taxi-cab has done..to educate the non-motoring public to the utility of the motor-car. taximeter An automatic contrivance fitted on a cab or other vehicle to indicate to the passenger at any point the distance traversed and the fare due. Also ellipt. for taximeter cab (rare). The earliest forms of this indicator were simply distance-recorders, but it was soon made to comprise an automatic fare-reckoner and index. [1890 German Patent Spec. 56310 Taxameter-Fabrik Westendorp & Pieper in Hamburg.] 1894 Times 2 June 19/1, I have severally interviewed the proprietors of the 'taxameter', owners of cabs at Hamburg, and several of their employes. 1898 Daily Chron. 21 Mar., An illustration and description of the taxameter has been sent us. 1898 Westm. Gaz. 30 Apr. 7/3 Each vehicle will be provided with a taxameterthe little instrument for registering distance which has found such favour in Paris and Berlin. 27 June 1965, New York (NY) Herald Tribune, pg. 24, col. 2: Harry Allen, the Man Behind the Taxicab (...) He was the man who started the taxicab industry in New York City. He coined the name "taxicab" and copyrighted it. He operated the first fleet of what street-corner loafer jeeringly called "smoke-wagons" -- 65 of them to start, 700 within a year. (...)(Col. 3 -- ed.) He put together parts of the words "motorcab" and "taximetres" from a French company making meters for horse cabs, and came up with "taxicab." He went to Washington to copyright it, then went back to France and bought 65 shiny, red taxicabs, 16-horsepower, four-cylinder Darracq cars of the landaulet type. (...)(Col. 4 -- ed.) On Oct. 1, 1907, what the newspapers called "the new taximeter motor cabs" had their first public trial. 27 June 1965, New York (NY) Times, "Harry Allen Dies, Taxi Pioneer, 88, Introduced Vehicles Here in '07 -- Coined 'Taxicab,'" pg. 64: Harry N. Allen, who coined the word "taxicab," and introduced the first such vehicles here, died yesterday at his apartment in the Peter Cooper Hotel, 130 East 39th Street. He was 88 years old. The taxicab industry here began when Mr. Allen became angry one evening early in 1907, when the driver of a horse-drawn hansom cab charged him $5 for a trip from 44th Street to 58th Street. "I got to brooding over this nighthawk," Mr. Allen told an interviewer in 1947. "I made up my mind to start a service in New York and charge so much per mile." Mr. Allen solicited $3 million worth of underwriting for the New York Taxicab Company, from French, ENglish and New York businessmen. On Oct. 1, 1907, a fleet of 65 shiny red taxicabs appeared on the streets of New York. 20 August 1905, New York (NY) Sun, "What Happens in Paris When Your Cab Horse Runs Away," third section, pg. 8, col. 1: "I'd been browsing around one morning and it got to be noon without my knowing it. I'd promised my wife to be back to the hotel for lunch, so I hailed a taximeter cab -- that's a kind of vehicle, you know, that's self-registering. There's a minimum charge, and then you can sit and watch your bill go up as the wheels go around." 15 April 1906, San Francisco (CA) Call, pg. 5, cols. 2-3: Keeping Tab on the Cab. -- The taximeter cab is a great institution -- small clockwork arrangement alongside of seat, so that passenger may sit and watch the indicator and know how his bill is running up. The indicator is set an seventy-five centimes at the start. In other words, you owe 15 cents before you get away. Then it clicks up 10 centimes at a time, and when you reach your destination there is no chance for an argument regarding the total. What they need now in Paris is a mechanism to prevent the driver from taking you by the roundabout way. 18 June 1906, Hammond (IN) Times, pg. 16 ad: This Nifty Taxi Cab. One of the newest of the Go-Cart creation this season is the "Taxi Cab." They are simply immense. Come in and let us show them to you, the price ranges up from ... 14.75 [This looks to be a baby carriage -- ed.] 24 March 1907, Salt Lake Herald (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 8, col. 4: The company which has been formed to operate taximeter cabs in New York will, as soon as possible, open stations at Philadelphia, Boston and other principal cities. 31 March 1907, Salt Lake Herald (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 9, col. 5: Drivers of the taximeter cabs to be operated in New York and several other eastern cities will be termed "motormen," not "chauffeurs," and will be forbidden to receive tips. 31 March 1907, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. B3: LONDON LIKES ITS "TAXICAB"; 63 KEPT BUSY ALL THE TIME. New Sixteen Cents a Mile Motor Cars Strike Popular Fancy in British Metropolis, as in Paris. LONDON, March 30. - After a week's trial the new taximeter motor cab or "taxicab," as it already has been christened, has been pronounced an all sides as an unqualified success, though the drivers will have hard work living down the contempt of the London cabby, who is unable to compete with his smartly uniformed rival and his swift car, and vents his humor in choicest billingsgate whenever the other is in earshot. 28 April 1907, Sunday World-Herald (Omaha, NE), pg. 11: How picturesque the details of that day sound, as Lord Gwydyr tells about them to us who belong to this quicker age of motor buses, taxi cabs and telephones. He started from Gwydyr house in Whitehall, not as he might now, by motor or taxi cab, but in a barge, if you please -- his grandfather's barge, manned by liveried boatmen, of positively Elizabethan aspect. 19 May 1907, New York (NY) Sun, "London Nicknames," second section, pg. 2, col. 7: The streets of London have been dotted lately with handsome new, red painted motor cabs, which ply for hire at the reduced rate of eightpence a mile. They are fitted with taximeters and have promptly been called "taxicabs." (...) The new motor cabs have, as aforesaid, been christened the "taxicabs," and the horse drivers are wild with rage at their success. They have sounded the death knell of the old time crawlers, which, aside from being slow and not altogether safe, have not been too cheap; though I do not suppose Americans who use them here on their summer holidays will agree with me on that point. The one thing that visitors from your side delight in is to sit in a hansom cab by the hour and drive aimlessly about, because "it is so cheap." 26 May 1907, New York (NY) Times, pg. SM6: Is the Day of Cheap and Honest Cab Service at Hand? (...) In London, where they have been in operation for some time, they are now known as "taxicabs." 21 July 1907, New York (NY) Sun, second section, pg. 11, col. 2: Henry D. Winans & May have leased the plot of nine lots on the south side of Fifty-seventh street, 275 feet west of Eleventh avenue, for Charles E. Appleby to the New York Taxi-Cab Company. 25 August 1907, Washington (DC) Herald, "Some Nicknames in London," third part, pg. 2, col. 5: It was only a very few weeks ago that cabs fitted with taximeters in the manner so popular in Paris were put on the London streets, says Tit-Bits. At first everybody called them "taximeter cabs," to distinguish them from ordinary cabs, but the name has by universal consent been shortened to "taxicabs," in just the same was as the omnibus -- which was introduced from Paris by a man named Shillibeer, the first traveling from Paddington to the Bank of England in 1829 -- got changed to "bus," and "cab" took the place of cabriolet, as the one-horse vehicles used to be called when twelve of them first piled in London in 1823. 29 May 1909, New York (NY) Times, pg. 3: Telephone 5400 Columbus For a Yellow Taxicab On June First we begin the operation of a new Taxicab service in this city. Quality is the keynote throughout. Our taximeters are guaranteed to be accurate. The Yellow cabs will be kept constantly in as first class condition as any private turnout. See our page advertisement on back of new Telephone Directory. Our drivers are courteous, capable, and specially selected men. W. C. P. TAXICAB CO., 232 W. 56th Street at Broadway. 20 June 1909, New York Times, pg. S4: President C. F. Wyckoff of the W. C. P. Taxicab Company, made a wager a few days ago that the meters on the yellow cabs his company is operating were perfectly accurate. 18 July 1909, New York (NY) Times, pg. 1: The New York Taxicab Company will announce to-morrow a reduction in the mileage rate of its red taxicabs for the first half mile to 30 cents, and 10 cents for each extra half mile - the same fee, one to four persons, day or night, and no sending charge. This means that the company is going below even the original rate that was charged when the red taxicabs were first put on the streets. (...) At the offices of the New York Transportation Company, Forty-ninth Street and Eighth Avenue, no news of the cut in rates contemplated by their competitor had been received, and the same was true of the W. C. P. Taxicab Company, at Fifty-sixth Street and Broadway, which operates the new yellow taxicabs. 1 September 1933, New York (NY) Times, pg. 17: C. F. WYCKOFF DIES; WENT TO AID PEARY Ithaca Manufacturer Was a Member of Arctic Relief Expedition in 1901. A PIONEER IN TAXIS HERE In 1894 He Joined Firm That Operated First Fleet of Auto- mobile Cabs in New York City. ITHACA, N. Y., Aug. 31. - Clarence F. Wyckoff, a member of the expedition which went to the relief of Admiral Peary in the Arctic in 1901, died of a heart attack in his home here last night at the age of 57. He was found by members of his family this morning. He was a manufacturer of Ithaca, an insurance broker and a pioneer in the automobile and taxi business in New York City. Graduating from Cornall University in 1894, he went to New York, where he joined the firm of Wyckoff, Church & Partridge in the automobile business. The firm built one of the first showrooms for cars and operated the first fleet of taxicabs. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 3 04:40:14 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:40:14 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710021518.l92FImi3002463@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of >New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? I don't know nothing about the club, but I can make a guess about the name. "Hunc Over De" = Spanish "junco verde" (= "green reed/rush"), rewritten as bogus [I think] Latin, with "j" replaced by "h" which expresses the Spanish pronunciation ("j" = /h/ or close enough). "Junco verde" is apparently from Columbus's log: the green rush/reed was apparently one of the first things observed to indicate that the expedition was nearing the land of the New World. From a Web site ... http://www.mgar.net/docs/colon2.htm ... <> There are on-line English versions, I think. The "junco verde"/"green rush"/"green reed" is mentioned in histories and even poems. E.g.: from Google Books: Juan Bautista Mu?oz, _Historia del nuevo-mundo_ (1793), p. 80: <> Alfred Coester, _The Literary History of Spanish America_ (1916), p. 435: <<_El Junco verde_ [poem by J. J. P?rez (1845-1900)] relates the impression which was produced on Columbus and his crew by the sight of a green reed, the first sign of land.>> I suppose the meaning of the club name might have been "Attainment of the New World" or something like that. Alternatively perhaps there was a game named after Columbus's reed, with the club named after the game. I don't know whether there is some other meaning (a double-entendre) in the club name. Pretty obscure: I suppose it was meant to be so. Or am I out in left field again? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 05:55:09 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:55:09 -0400 Subject: bobbery 1784 antedates OED2 1816- Message-ID: By a wag correspondent from Spanish town [Jamaica], we are informed, that a military buck having publicly declared that he would make an attack behind the scenes of the theatre, and there kick up, what he polite[l]y called a bobbery, (some new military term for a riot), on Friday evening last, forced the out posts of the stage door, and in [the] tactical phrase, made a lodgement [etc.]. Pennsylvania Packet, 6 March 1784, page 2, col. 3. [Early American Newspapers] bobbery (n) antedates OED2 1816- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 06:29:12 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 02:29:12 -0400 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) Message-ID: Over three years ago, Michael Quinion made an ADS-L post, tracking "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. ... I just noticed that the "First Mention" website tracks "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. ... However, there was a widely circulated AP story on "Kilroy" on 14 November 1945. Fred Shapiro's excellent YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS (pg. 669) gives citations of 26 June 1945 and 20 October 1945. ... "First Mention" states that Kilroy doesn't appear in STARS AND STRIPES until 7 January 1946, but Fred Shapiro cites it from STARS AND STRIPES on 19 August 1945. That date actually should be 18 August 1945. There are very many cites in STARS AND STRIPES, actually. ... ... ... (FIRST MENTION) http://firstmention.com/kilroywashere.aspx Undoubtedly the most famous piece of graffiti in history, Kilroy Was Here is almost synonymous with American GI's in World War II. So much so, it's even engraved in the World War II Memorial in Washington DC. But tracking down the origins of this ubiquitous phrase is maddening. There do not seem to be any WWII-era photos of the Kilroy Was Here scribble, despite numerous pleas in military forums asking for such photos. Nor does the phrase show up in actual WWII newspapers or other publications during the war. Not even the venerable Stars and Stripes mentioned Kilroy until well after the War was over, in their January 7, 1946 issue. The actual First Mention of Kilroy Was Here isn't until December 2, 1945 in an article from the Nevada State Journal, which attributes the origin of the phrase to Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy. ... ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 14 November 1945, Lowell (MA) Sun, "How Kilroy Got There," pg. 4, col. 6: 20 November 1945, Portsmouth (NH) Herald, pg. 4, col. 3: Boston (AP) -- To those men of the army air force who wondered how "Kilroy" happened to be just ahead of them at air bases all over the world, here's the answer! ... The army public relations office said that a friend of Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, Jr. of Everest, early in the war wrote on a barracks bulletin board at Boca Raton army air field in Florida: "Kilroy will be here next week." ... Kilroy was ill with the flu at the time. ... Later the catchy phrase was picked up by other airmen who changed it to: "Kilroy was here," and scribbled it on air force station walls. ... Kilroy, himself, only wrote it a couple of times. ... By the time Kilroy got overseas, the public relations office said, the thing had gotten out of hand and Kilroy even acquired a cousin. ... One sign at an Italian base said: ... "Kilroy's cousin, corduroy, was here." ... ... ... (ADS-L, 22 January 2004) Anyone collecting folk etymologies may like to add this one, which I found in the Nevada State Journal for 2 December 1945: Kilroy Was Here; Mystery Message Traced to Source EVERETT, Mass., Dec. 1. (U.P.) The mystery of world war II's most frequently chalked inscription - "Kilroy was here" - apparently has been solved. Veterans, who have seen that curious phrase on buildings, aircraft fuselages and piers wherever Americans have fought, will be happy to know that Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, jr. 21- year-old Everett soldier, was responsible. Now awaiting a discharge at Davis-Monthan field, Tucson, Ariz., Kilroy informed his parents here that while he was hospitalized earlier in the war a friend scrawled on a bulletin board at a Florida airbase: "Kilroy will be here next week." Airmen carried it overseas and left millions of veterans guessing until now. So now we know ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: <[log in to unmask]> Web: ... ,.. ... (STARS AND STRIPES) 18 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 1, col. 1: Kilroy's Fame Is Earned By Going To Pot ... 25 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific) ,pg. 2, col. 3. "Kilroy" letter. ... 30 August 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy Again!", pg. 2, col. 1. ... 4 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy Again?", pg. 2, col. 1: Your story of Aug. 18 seems a bit on the inquiring side as to "Who's Kilroy?" Well, I know Kilroy well. I assure you he's a well-bred Texas gentleman now seeing the world at Uncle Sam's expense. ... 6 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 3: "Kilroy ate here -- and died." ... 10 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy's Buddy," pg. 2, col. 1. ... 14 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy in Verse," pg. 2, col. 3. ... 18 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 5. (letter about "Kilroy Puzzle") ... 28 September 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 2, col. 4: The Kilroy legend was started at Sheppard Field, Tex., by Staff Sergeant Bennet. He started to write "Kilroy Was Here," "Kilroy Slept Here," etc. Later, when we were at Kearns, Utah, a first sergeant wanted to know who was missing from formation. Everyone yelled "Kilroy!" The same thing happened at Ft. Lawton, out POE. We even wrote "Kilroy" on the ship's head on our (Col. 5) way overseas. I believe Staff Sergeant Bennet is on Saipan now, while I'm in Okinawa. --Pfc. R. M. Belanger, APO 337 ... 12 November 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), "Kilroy's Brother," pg. 2, col. 3. ... 16 November 1945, Stars and Stripes (Middle Pacific), pg. 3, col. 4: Kilroy Found -- Secret Ends Everett, Mass. (AP)... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Wed Oct 3 08:29:28 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:29:28 +0100 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote ... > Over three years ago, Michael Quinion made an ADS-L post, tracking > "Kilroy was here" to the 2 December 1945 Nevada State Journal. Barry, and perhaps others, has been led astray by my odd British sense of humour. When I quoted the item about Sgt. Francis J. Kilroy, Jr, and added the comment "So now we know ...", it was to illustrate that even by that date, competing claims to be the originator of the expression had begun to circulate and be believed by the press. I was aware that earlier examples of it had been recorded. Think of the terminating three dots in my comment as my personal representation of the quizzically raised eyebrow ... -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 11:32:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:32:44 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "dressed to the nines" (1837) In-Reply-To: <492564.3397.qm@web53906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: what has Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect searches.] The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] [It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that "Some unaccustomed spirit Lifts him above the ground".... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 3 11:44:33 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:44:33 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: Whiting's _Modern Proverbs_ (1989; T156), gives "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers" (from _Time_ magazine, 1958: "an axiom learned during his East Harlem youth"). Prahlad (p. 239) cites Elsie C. Parsons, _Folk-Lore of the Antilles_ (1943): "Hunger make monkey blow fire" (from Grenada). Whiting cites as an analog the much older "Dainty dogs eat dirty puddings." --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:53:32 -0400 >From: Barry Popik > >Clarence Thomas said in an interview that his grandfather used this phrase; perhaps it's in Thomas's book. >... >Is it in the ProQuest Black Newspapers database? >... >... >... >(GOOGLE BOOKS) >African-American Proverbs in Context >by Anand Prahlad - Literary Criticism - 1996 - 292 pages > >Page 239 >Hard times will make a monkey eat cayenne pepper. ... Usage: "If a monkey had gone a long time without eating, he would eat whatever became available to ... >... >... >(GOOGLE BOOKS) >If He Hollers Let Him Go: A Novel - Google Books Resultby Chester B. Himes - 2002 - Fiction - 216 pages >The white folks* pressure would make a monkey eat cayenne pepper?once. 1 tried to shake it from my mind, looked about me. I'd gone out past Washington. ... >... >... >(GOOGLE) >Hillsdale College - Issue My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. ... > >[June 1994 essay by Clarence Thomas. Full quote below. -- ed.] >... >I know there are those who hear me with a smug arrogance that only >untarnished youth or insulated cynicism can generate. But I am >unimpressed with this uninformed and misguided arrogance; I have seen >it and I have been there. My grandfather used to say, "Hard times make >monkey eat Cayenne pepper." Hard times have a way of teaching us >lessons that we refuse to learn in good times. That is the one >university we all get to attend?tuition free. And learning the lessons >that we must learn cannot forever be avoided by sweeping our >difficulties under the rug of societal blame. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:15:30 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:15:30 -0400 Subject: "Kilroy was here" (AP story, 14 Nov. 1945) In-Reply-To: <200710030629.l92IjYQY032225@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Barry Popik wrote: > > 14 November 1945, Lowell (MA) Sun, "How Kilroy Got There," pg. 4, col. 6: > 20 November 1945, Portsmouth (NH) Herald, pg. 4, col. 3: > Boston (AP) -- To those men of the army air force who wondered how > "Kilroy" happened to be just ahead of them at air bases all over the > world, here's the answer! > ... > The army public relations office said that a friend of Sgt. Francis J. > Kilroy, Jr. of Everest, early in the war wrote on a barracks bulletin > board at Boca Raton army air field in Florida: "Kilroy will be here > next week." > ... > Kilroy was ill with the flu at the time. > ... > Later the catchy phrase was picked up by other airmen who changed it > to: "Kilroy was here," and scribbled it on air force station walls. The Boca Raton origin was given a few months earlier in this Chicago Tribune article: ----- "Meet Kilroy; He's GI Rival of Legion's Elmer," Joseph Hearst Chicago Tribune, Aug 20, 1945, p. 9 Kilroy got his legendary start at Boca Raton, Fla. air base. One version is that a fellow named Kilroy attended, after a fashion, radar classes there. When he attended he went to sleep. Frequently he didn't attend at all. His companions noticing his eccentric habits began scribbling notes and leaving them in the classroom. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:34:10 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:34:10 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "chew scenery" (1891) In-Reply-To: <492564.3397.qm@web53906.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: HDAS and ads-l archive have 1895 "chewin' the scenery" 1891 Rocky Mountain News, (Denver, CO) Sunday, March 01, 1891; pg. 19; col E Sarah?s Cleopatra Bernhardt Scored a Decided Failure on the Opening Night of the Play Agreeable Rattle. Category: News [19th C US N] The Antony...was devoid of dignity and real force. He was inclined to "chew scenery." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:01:54 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:01:54 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Johnny-on-the-spot" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003083410.kkybnh6v400k808g@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED has 1896 1894 The Penny Press, (Minneapolis, MN) Friday, December 21, 1894; Issue 57; Page 1, col C Pay up or Quit Firemen Who Are Not Johnny on the Spot Must Go. Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 12:51:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:51:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "chew scenery" (1891) In-Reply-To: <200710031234.l93AkoMW018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > HDAS and ads-l archive have 1895 "chewin' the scenery" > > 1891 Rocky Mountain News, (Denver, CO) Sunday, March 01, 1891; pg. 19; col E > Sarah?s Cleopatra Bernhardt Scored a Decided Failure on the Opening Night > of the Play Agreeable Rattle. Category: News [19th C US N] > The Antony...was devoid of dignity and real force. He was inclined to "chew > scenery." Chicago Tribune, Feb. 27, 1883, p. 6, col. 4 Wanted -- to hire -- 50 goats at Haverly's Theatre. Bring them to stage door Monday morning. The above curious "ad" appeared in Sunday's Tribune, and to those who saw it and were not on the inside it was a mystery. Some thought that the irrepressible Haverly had a new scheme and intended to put on the road a company of goats -- "fifty, count 'em, fifty" -- as tragedians, the aforesaid animals understanding perfectly the art of chewing scenery. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:12:30 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:12:30 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 Message-ID: Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page 1,col D Multiple News Items Category: News [col E top] ....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked him off to prison for bigamy. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:24:51 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:24:51 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "more ways nor one to skin a cat" (1830) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: 1830 Daily National Journal, (Washington, DC) Thursday, November 04, 1830; Issue 3057; Page 2, col D. A Rencounter. Category: Editorial [19th C US N] [in col. e] ....Harry is just as sure as that there rifle what never misses; but ye know there is more ways nor one to skin a cat--.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 13:57:28 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:57:28 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <20071003092451.xm7au0m1c8ggkgws@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Fashion Smiles Approval Without Reserve It Sets the Seal of Commendation upon the Komoi (Arts & Entertainment) The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, IL) Saturday, April 19, 1890; pg. 6; Issue 26; col A ....And when fashion and the Komoi join hands it is, as the mayor observed last night after deep thought, Katy bar the door. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 14:04:03 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:04:03 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031357.l93AlwD0028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > Fashion Smiles Approval Without Reserve It Sets the Seal of Commendation upon > the Komoi (Arts & Entertainment) > The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, IL) Saturday, April 19, 1890; pg. > 6; Issue > 26; col A > ....And when fashion and the Komoi join hands it is, as the mayor > observed last > night after deep thought, Katy bar the door. 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. [HNP Doc ID 229263831] --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 14:05:31 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:05:31 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 14:28:28 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:28:28 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 In-Reply-To: A<20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: When laymen talk about "the long arm of the law," they generally refer to the ability of law enforcement agencies to pursue crimes. But when lawyers talk about "long arm" jurisdiction, they mean the ability of a court to obtain personal jurisdiction over a particular party. I don't know if the two phrases have a common origin. Here's an example of the latter from 1828: "But in all these cases, the court will have to decide under all the circumstances, not only, that there has been a plain devastavit on the part of the executor, but that the debtor consented to, and was a party in contriving the devastavit; then indeed, a case of fraud is made out, which the long arm of the court will reach." Murray v. Blatchford, 1 Wend. 583 (N.Y. 1828). A "devastavit," which was a new term to me, is from Latin "he has wasted" and means an executor's failure to administer a decedent's estate promptly and properly, especially by spending extravagantly or misapplying assets. In the cases in question, the devastavits consisted of executors' sales of estate properties for amounts substantially less than their values. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:13 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: antedating (?) "the long arm of the law" (18 Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page 1,col D Multiple News Items Category: News [col E top] ....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked him off to prison for bigamy. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 14:32:11 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:32:11 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <20071003073244.85sk5u3ntwws844s@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Last Saturday, one of those notorious villains, (distinguished by the appellation of sharper) dressed in his laced cloaths, and powdered off to the nines, went on board of a brig, bound for Calais. Independent Gazetteer [Philadelphia], 24 March 1787, page 2, col. 3 [letter addressed "Mr. Oswald, signed "Lutius"]. [Early American Newspapers] Joel At 10/3/2007 07:32 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: >what has >Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect >searches.] > >The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D > The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] >[It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a >house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. >One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline >says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] >is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that >"Some unaccustomed spirit >Lifts him above the ground".... > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 14:57:47 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: The 1899 citation is still on the Times' website. The New York Times provides scans of the articles in question, but does not include a scan of the date, so users are dependent on the date provided by the Times. Just how unreliable are these? Are we talking Google Books levels of unreliability? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:39 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Hamburg Sandwich (1898); Taxicab (1906?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------- TAXICAB ... Grant Barrett has informed me that the 1899 New York Times "taxicab" ProQuest database citation is in error, and I've removed it from my website. I hate it when he does that and I have to revise old work. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 15:05:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:05:33 -0400 Subject: "the X arm of the law" (1792) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED2 does not have "arm of the law" as a phrase; the earliest quotation text containing it is 1871. [All from Early American Newspapers] "the X arm of the law" I did not find X = long; and the earliest "the arm of the law" is later than the first of my two citations below. X = cold, vindictive: An execution in a republic is like a human sacrifice in religion. it is an offering to monarchy, and to that malignant being, who has been stiled a murderer from the beginning, and who delights equally in murder, whether it be purpetrated by the cold, but vindictive arm of the law, or by the angry hand of private revenge. State Gazette of South-Carolina, 4 Oct. 1792, page 2, col. 3. X = strong: I trust we will shew that the strong arm of the law is able to crush any factions or designing set of people, whose wish is to overturn the constitution. Salem Gazette, 14 May 1793, page 2, col. 2 [?rish House of Lords. Friday, March 1.] Joel At 10/3/2007 09:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; Page >1,col D > Multiple News Items >Category: News >[col E top] >....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, while >having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, and walked >him off to prison for bigamy. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Oct 3 15:22:44 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:22:44 -0400 Subject: "the X arm of the law" (1792) In-Reply-To: A<200710031505.l93F5c9d000370@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: The earliest "arm of the law" I see on Westlaw is this dramatically-worded example from 1802, referring to the court's power to find against parties who play a secret role in fraud: "But the arm of the law is not shortened, that it cannot save, and courts and jurors will with eagle eyes trace fraud through all its secret and crooked paths, and render both the agent who appears, and the prime mover who plots in darkness, amenable." Windover v. Robbins, 2 Tyl. 1 (Vt. 1802). "Arm of the law" citations are frequent, but "long arm of the law" does not even show up on Westlaw until 1937. This makes me think that "long arm of the law" may have originated as a blend of "(strong) arm of the law" and "long arm (of the court)." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:06 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "the X arm of the law" (1792) OED2 does not have "arm of the law" as a phrase; the earliest quotation text containing it is 1871. [All from Early American Newspapers] "the X arm of the law" I did not find X = long; and the earliest "the arm of the law" is later than the first of my two citations below. X = cold, vindictive: An execution in a republic is like a human sacrifice in religion. it is an offering to monarchy, and to that malignant being, who has been stiled a murderer from the beginning, and who delights equally in murder, whether it be purpetrated by the cold, but vindictive arm of the law, or by the angry hand of private revenge. State Gazette of South-Carolina, 4 Oct. 1792, page 2, col. 3. X = strong: I trust we will shew that the strong arm of the law is able to crush any factions or designing set of people, whose wish is to overturn the constitution. Salem Gazette, 14 May 1793, page 2, col. 2 [?rish House of Lords. Friday, March 1.] Joel At 10/3/2007 09:12 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Milwaukie Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Saturday, July 13, 1844; Issue 43; >Page 1,col D > Multiple News Items >Category: News >[col E top] >....A Mr. Neville, of Western New York, has married a Miss Amanda Drop, >while having another wife. The long arm of the law dropped down on him, >and walked him off to prison for bigamy. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 15:33:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:33:31 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031432.l93AlwHq028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where does "card shark fit in? -Wilson On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Last Saturday, one of those notorious villains, (distinguished by the > appellation of sharper) dressed in his laced cloaths, and powdered > off to the nines, went on board of a brig, bound for Calais. > > Independent Gazetteer [Philadelphia], 24 March 1787, page 2, col. 3 > [letter addressed "Mr. Oswald, signed "Lutius"]. > [Early American Newspapers] > > Joel > > At 10/3/2007 07:32 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: > >Whether an antedating or no, perhaps it's worth noting in order to ask: > >what has > >Ben Bowline got to do with it? [The e in Ben is upsidedown, which may affect > >searches.] > > > >The Herald, (New York, NY) Saturday, March 11, 1837; Issue 310; page 2, col D > > The Penny Wedding Category: News [19th C US Newspapers] > >[It begins:] A circumstance of a very engaging nature occurred last week at a > >house in the Broadway...which almost realized the Arabian tale of Aben Hassan. > >One evening a smart young mechanic, "dressed to the nines," as Ben Bowline > >says, might have been seen wending his way along broadway. His ais [sic--air?] > >is thoughtful, yet gay--and his step light and elastic, betokens that > >"Some unaccustomed spirit > >Lifts him above the ground".... > > > >Stephen Goranson > >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 16:00:48 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:00:48 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071003044012.JSSD21078.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: Doug, I don't think your guess is out in left field. It has plausibility to me -- but of course no proof (yet). If this learned list can't help further (George Thompson wrote me privately that he was going to look into it), I may try some 18th century historians. Intriguingly, the earliest article Early American Newspapers finds for "hunc over de" (as three separate words) is the possibly-satiric one I excerpted here. [A correction -- the date of publication is 1 March, not 25 February (1736 NS).] The only additional hit from EAN before 1748 is the Boston Evening-Post, 12 April 1736, which copied from the New-York Weekly Journal of 15 March (not found by EAN with my search). The writer of a letter signed Andrew Merril is serious about political party factionalism at social gatherings and clubs that disappoints him, a visitor from overseas. After describing his experiences at various men's and women's clubs, he writes: "I fell into Company one Day with the _Hunc over De_ Club, they were merry enough, but they had like to have demolished the Ladies Tea Table at whose House the Club was; they had not much Party till Supper cane, and then they were as warm as Scallopt Oysters." [Another mystifying reference! Is Merril reporting factually? Does "Scallopt Oysters" hint at something? (By the way, this antedates OED2!) Is "Party" a play on words? Etc.] I did not search further, as it appeared there would be a large number of false positives. If, as one modern author wrote, there are many references to the Hunc Over De club in the New York Papers circa 1736, EAN did not find them. Nor did it find any "junco verde". Joel At 10/3/2007 01:39 AM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>What can this learned list tell me about the "hunc over de" club of >>New York in the 1730s, and especially about the name? > >I don't know nothing about the club, but I can make a guess about the name. > >"Hunc Over De" = Spanish "junco verde" (= "green >reed/rush"), rewritten as bogus [I think] Latin, >with "j" replaced by "h" which expresses the >Spanish pronunciation ("j" = /h/ or close enough). > >"Junco verde" is apparently from Columbus's log: >the green rush/reed was apparently one of the >first things observed to indicate that the >expedition was nearing the land of the New World. > > From a Web site ... http://www.mgar.net/docs/colon2.htm ... > ><Col?n Jueves 11 de octubre de 1492: / Naveg? al >Ouestesudeste. Tuvieron mucha mar, y m?s que en >todo el viaje hab?an tenido. Vieron pardelas y un >junco verde junto a la nao. Vieron los de la >carabela Pinta una ca?a y un palo y tomaron otro >palillo labrado, a lo que parec?a, con hierro, y >un pedazo de ca?a y otra hierba que nace en >tierra, y una tablilla. Los de la carabela Ni?a >tambi?n vieron otras se?ales de tierra y un >palillo cargado de escaramojos. Con estas se?ales >respiraron y alegr?ronse todos. Anduvieron en >este d?a, hasta puesto el sol, veintisiete leguas.>> > >There are on-line English versions, I think. > >The "junco verde"/"green rush"/"green reed" is >mentioned in histories and even poems. E.g.: from Google Books: > >Juan Bautista Mu?oz, _Historia del nuevo-mundo_ >(1793), p. 80: <alegraron todos al ver un junco verde, un pez de >los que se crian entre rocas, una tablilla , una >ca?a, un baston con ciertas labores prolijas, ....>> > >Alfred Coester, _The Literary History of Spanish >America_ (1916), p. 435: <<_El Junco verde_ >[poem by J. J. P?rez (1845-1900)] relates the >impression which was produced on Columbus and his >crew by the sight of a green reed, the first sign of land.>> > >I suppose the meaning of the club name might have >been "Attainment of the New World" or something like that. > >Alternatively perhaps there was a game named >after Columbus's reed, with the club named after the game. > >I don't know whether there is some other meaning >(a double-entendre) in the club name. > >Pretty obscure: I suppose it was meant to be so. > >Or am I out in left field again? > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: >269.13.39/1044 - Release Date: 10/2/2007 11:10 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:00:27 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:00:27 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031415.l93AlwFU028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's gwine _ter_ do it." I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" where the standard, at least, does use one.` -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > > Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 3 16:11:19 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:11:19 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710030833r25583a35r54b2c573270d64aa@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: From OED2: "sharper" (n 1) "A cheat, swindler, rogue; one who lives by his wits and by taking advantage of the simplicity of others; esp. a fraudulent gamester. Cf. shark n.2" goes back to 1681. Earlier is "shark (n 2) "A worthless and impecunious person who gains a precarious living by sponging on others, by executing disreputable commissions, cheating at play, and petty swindling; a parasite; a sharper. In later use influenced by shark n.1 2.", 1599 B. Jonson. The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. OED2 does not have "card shark"! Joel At 10/3/2007 11:33 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where >does "card shark fit in? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:13:17 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93Akoia018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or both). dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >gwine _ter_ do it." > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >-Wilson > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English 15C Morrill Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-353-4736 preston at msu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:14:11 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:14:11 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031533.l93Ako4q018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > does "card shark fit in? I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" from 1858: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I really was hearing both.") --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:15:55 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:15:55 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoops, should have read the other thread first! On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > > does "card shark fit in? > > I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. > OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" > from 1858: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") > > "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of > the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was > hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I > really was hearing both.") > > > --Ben Zimmer > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:17:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:17:49 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <200710031611.l93AkojM018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. > > OED2 does not have "card shark"! As I just posted in the other thread, we now have "card sharp" from 1858 and "card shark" from 1884: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:29:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:29:30 -0400 Subject: Hi! II Message-ID: Hi, sugar! I've remembered what I was going to say. The baby's screen did its closing and crashing thing, but then, the screen opened up, again, a second later, and everything was okay. Love you, -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:31:16 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:31:16 -0400 Subject: "Hard times make monkey eat cayenne pepper" (Clarence Thomas's grandfather) Message-ID: More on the monkey eating red pepper (cayenne) proverb. Now, if only I could get the monkey to eat my wife's tuna casserole--only kidding. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) 'Gombo Zh?bes', little dictionary of Creole proverbs, selected from six ... - Page 25 by Gombo Zh?bes - 1885 Misery makes the monkey eat red pepper."? [Martinique.] 208. ? " Mo bien comm mo y?," parole rare. ("Je me trouve bien comme Je suis"? ces sont des paroles ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Occidental Gleanings - Page 192 by Lafcadio Hearn - 1925 "Miser ca lair macaque manger piment"; or "Want makes the monkey eat red pepper," is a powerful illustration of the pressure exerted by necessity. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Road: A Romance of the Proletarian Revolution - Page 336 by George Spiro - 1933 - 623 pages Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper." Eugene asked his opinion whether this crisis would open the eyes of the workers. ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES/NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) 12 May 1952, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 33, col. 3: "Hard times," Heloise said, "make the monkey eat red pepper." ("Pound Foolish" by Robert Molloy, copyright 1950 -- ed.) ... ... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,810583,00.html Monday, Nov. 03, 1958 Hoodlum Frank Costello came when he was called last week, began paying the four years and 1? months he still owes on an income tax rap. Before catching his free bus to the federal penitentiary at Lewisburg, Pa., "The Prime Minister" told reporters he would be "put in solitary for 30 days, but I'm not really bitter." Rolling across the Jersey Meadows, he might well have recalled a favorite axiom learned during his East Harlem youth: "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers." ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) Book World Pay-Per-View - Washington Post - ProQuest Archiver - Dec 28, 1979 ... SC, and orphaned at birth, She was exemplified and frequently repeats something She was told as A child: "Hard times will make A monkey eat red pepper." ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Wisdom of Many: essays on the proverb - Page 144 by Wolfgang Mieder - Reference - 1981 - 326 pages Examples include "Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper" and "That which goes around the devil's back must buckle under his belly. ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) MINERS RESERVE JUDGMENT ON PACT $2.95 - Lexington Herald Leader - NewsBank - Sep 23, 1984 Hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper," said Hibbs, a UMW member for 29 years. Akers and Hibbs will have the chance to inspect the proposal in detail ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) For Dinkins, Pomp, Ceremony, Triumph And a Dream Realized New York Times - Jan 1, 1990 ''You know, hard times will make a monkey eat red pepper.'' It is The City's ability to survive hard times that will dominate Mr. Dinkins's first days, ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) TRAINER ARCEL LIVING HISTORY Pay-Per-View - Sunday Oregonian - LexisNexis - Aug 25, 1991 Tough times, Ray ARCEL likes to say, make monkeys eat red peppers. ``It makes me sad,'' ARCEL said recently at Trump Plaza, in Atlantic City to be honored ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS ARCHIVES) It's the afterthought that doesn't count.(Nation)(Pruden On... Subscription - Washington Times - HighBeam Research - Feb 4, 1997 Hard Times, a famous American philosopher king was fond of reminding everyone, will make a monkey eat red pepper. Our pols are the proof of it, ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 16:37:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:37:31 -0400 Subject: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) In-Reply-To: <200710031627.l93AlwdO028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My thanks to both of you. When I was a kid and a big fan of the horse opera, to the extent that I could distinguish between "Lash" Larue and "Whip" Wilson, trying to decide whether I was hearing "card shark" or "card sharp" used to drive me nuts. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: "sharper" and "shark" (nouns) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > The earliest "card sharper" is 1850; the earliest "card sharp" is 1876. > > > > OED2 does not have "card shark"! > > As I just posted in the other thread, we now have "card sharp" from > 1858 and "card shark" from 1884: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > --Ben Zimmer > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:20:51 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AkojS018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically used to represent [@:]). http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > Wilson, > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > both). > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:39:48 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:39:48 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93Akoia018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. I didn't see anything in this story ("Chunk" by Lum Duke, from the Atlanta Constitution) explicitly mentioning the race of the protagonists, Tom Hubbard and his beloved Mary Elizabeth (aka Chunk). They're described as rural Georgia folk -- she had "always lived hid away in the pine mountains on the Chattahoochee River." When such 19th-century stories featured black characters, they tended to be more "marked" -- unless, of course, the eye-dialect itself was intended as evidence of racial markedness. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Oct 3 16:42:16 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:42:16 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AlwbQ028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A similar thing happens in early New England literature, right? I recall being puzzled as a teenager by Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (close, I think, though I don't have the poem, or its title, handy). Fifty years and linguistic training on, I assume it was meant to indicate the low central vowel /a/, with of course no /r/ at all, but when I was young and naive, I pronounced it [hOrd hOrt]. Beverly At 12:13 PM 10/3/2007, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Wilson, > >It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >(bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >(usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >both). > >dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >-- >Dennis R. Preston >University Distinguished Professor >Department of English >15C Morrill Hall >Michigan State University >East Lansing, MI 48824 >517-353-4736 >preston at msu.edu > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 17:15:15 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:15:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "ivory tower" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003091230.60k0cxy08wo448os@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Of course the collocation exists before 1894. And in poetry meaning an architectural tower, rather than a neck (see Dough Wilson in the archives). In any case the following seems at least close to the OED's "A condition of seclusion or separation from the world; in general, protection or shelter from the harsh realities of life," for which, in English, they start with 1911. Fayetteville Observer, (Fayetteville, NC) Thursday, June 28, 1894; Issue 584; page 1, col E A Literary Philosopher Category: News [19th C US N] ....There is a vulgarity that hangs about the author who seeks the crowd. Let the crowd seek you; let them clamor at the posteru [?postern with last letter inverted?] of your ivory tower.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 3 17:57:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:57:44 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "ivory tower" (1894) In-Reply-To: <20071003131515.qc6h6y6ds8c000wk@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: The same speaker, Edmund Gosse, a year earlier [Google Books full view] Questions at Issue (London, 1883) p22): ... and when the battle is over, and the rest meet to carouse round a camp-fire, he [Mallarme] is always found stealing back to the ivory tower of contemplation. ... SG Quoting Stephen Goranson : > Of course the collocation exists before 1894. And in poetry meaning an > architectural tower, rather than a neck (see Doug Wilson in the archives). > In any case the following seems at least close to the OED's "A condition of > seclusion or separation from the world; in general, protection or > shelter from > the harsh realities of life," for which, in English, they start with 1911. > > Fayetteville Observer, (Fayetteville, NC) Thursday, June 28, 1894; Issue 584; > page 1, col E > A Literary Philosopher Category: News [19th C US N] > ....There is a vulgarity that hangs about the author who seeks the crowd. Let > the crowd seek you; let them clamor at the posteru [?postern with last letter > inverted?] of your ivory tower.... > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 19:20:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:20:53 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031612.l93AkojS018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson, > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > both). > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > >-Wilson > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > 15C Morrill Hall > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-353-4736 > preston at msu.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 3 19:23:27 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:23:27 -0500 Subject: Spear phishing Message-ID: "Spear phishing" is a term that is new to me. From a message to all Northrop-Grumman employees: Northrop Grumman employees have received e-mails from spear phishers recently. Spear fishing is a highly targeted phishing attack. By sending e-mails that appear genuine to all the employees or members of a certain company, government agency, organization or group, spear phishers attempt to trick you into giving out sensitive information. Phishing scams play off the trust a user has with the institution they think they are interacting with, for example a bank or credit union. In addition, spear phishing e-mails may include malicious software that can capture keystrokes or personal files and send them to phishers without your knowledge. Hidden and unknown codes can capture passwords and log-in credentials and compromise sensitive unclassified information. If you don't know who is contacting you and why, then you are at risk of being phished and should not open the e-mail. Delete unwanted e-mails by holding down the Shift key while you delete them to ensure the e-mail is not stored in your deleted items folder . [this instruction is specific to MS Outlook] How to Avoid Getting Hooked by Phishing Scams * Don't reply to e-mail or pop-up messages asking for Northrop Grumman information * Don't click on links within those messages * Don't cut and paste a link from the message into your Web browser * Don't respond to e-mails asking you to call a phone number; phone phishing threats are also on the rise * Don't e-mail personal or financial information. Financial institutions do not request this information via e-mail * Be cautious when opening any attachment or downloading any files regardless of who sent them * Follow up by using methods other than e-mail regardless of whether or not the message is suspicious * Check credit card and bank statements for any unauthorized charges ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On a lighter note: To get a flight instructor rating from the FAA requires meeting requirements (a) through (k) of section 61.183 of the Federal Aviation Requirements. Section (e) however is waived if the applicant: 61.183 (e)(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university. So good news to all you academics out there. You are already 1/11 of the way to getting a flight instructor rating. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ AXWYI KUBNJ CKZRP CFMEW NLAZK YAFXT LQMDP JKJTT MKKLQ KBZLX JLZ ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 3 19:30:16 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:30:16 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031921.l93Aq9RD028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. > >That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > >-Wilson > >On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wilson, >> >> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> both). >> >> dInIs >> >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >----------------------- >> >Sender: American Dialect Society >> >Poster: Wilson Gray >> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> >gwine _ter_ do it." >> > >> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> > >> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> > >> >-Wilson >> > >> > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> >> >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of English >> 15C Morrill Hall >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824 >> 517-353-4736 >> preston at msu.edu >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred North Whitehead Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA Office: (517) 353-4736 Fax: (517) 353-3755 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 3 20:03:38 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:03:38 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031654.l93AkomY018083@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Why would he represent a low-central vowel with +rr? It seems to me more like an arrhotic speaker trying to represent a rhotic pronunciation. I just tried to Google the phrase, but the only hit was your post of 2004-02-17 (archived at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0402c&L=ads-l&P=5368 ). "harrd" has a lot of porn hits. "harrd" with "Whittier" had one from Google Books that looked promising, but it turns out to be an OCR error for "shared" ( http://books.google.com/books?id=R33LsbqlTd4C&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=harrd+whittier&source=web&ots=cHqbzGy7MH&sig=nM1vJu2uq4IdHaPc24vGzyfvvhE ) Back to work now. m a m On 10/3/07, Beverly Flanigan < flanigan at ohio.edu> wrote: > > A similar thing happens in early New England literature, right? I recall > being puzzled as a teenager by Whittier's "harrd hearrt" (close, I think, > though I don't have the poem, or its title, handy). Fifty years and > linguistic training on, I assume it was meant to indicate the low central > vowel /a/, with of course no /r/ at all, but when I was young and naive, I > pronounced it [hOrd hOrt]. > > Beverly > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Oct 3 20:49:27 2007 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:49:27 -0500 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Oct 3 20:56:23 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:56:23 EDT Subject: Newspaperarchive.com Message-ID: Never heard about that. ... I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it was there, but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. ... The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so I re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we already knew where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. ... Oh, I got stories. ... --Barry Popik ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 3 23:50:29 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 19:50:29 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710031600.l93G0rLH031335@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". Not entirely transparent to me. The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of _maintain Truth_". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 00:02:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:02:49 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710032350.l93L2tWM018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly > Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". > > Not entirely transparent to me. > > The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of > _maintain Truth_". The plot thickens... ----- "Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. _Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 "I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, or hunk, to these Scotch children. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 4 00:32:51 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 20:32:51 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do not include the story I started from. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry A. Popik" Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Never heard about that. > ... > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > was there, > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > ... > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > I > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > already knew > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > ... > Oh, I got stories. > ... > --Barry Popik > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 02:23:56 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 22:23:56 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My infancy being over the horizon (and with no children or grandchildren), I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? How does "I spy" (of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? Does either article (Hoke's or Culin's) from the _Journal of American Folklore_ describe these two games? And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? Or relate "I spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's "Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? Joel At 10/3/2007 08:02 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > > There is a short letter about the "Hunk over Dees" in the "NY Weekly > > Journal", 19 April 1736, p. "[3]". > > > > Not entirely transparent to me. > > > > The "Game of _Hunk over Dee_" is opposed here to the "Game of > > _maintain Truth_". > >The plot thickens... > >----- >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, >or hunk, to these Scotch children. >----- > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 4 03:09:44 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:09:44 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >----- >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, >or hunk, to these Scotch children. >----- There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It appears in DARE. So maybe the "Hunc over De" club name is basically Dutch (or Low German), and refers to games of hide-and-seek? Maybe some of the savants can easily identify the relevant Dutch expression, but I surely can't. I know "over" = "over", and maybe "de" = "die" = "that" .... Otherwise, one might post an inquiry on the Lowlands list. [Last time I did, though, I got only an incomprehensible reply in some Low German dialect from a joker.] -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 4 04:02:00 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:02:00 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040224.l942ONIL014668@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >... I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" >is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? Probably not. It was usually described as an outdoors hide-and-seek game. >How does "I spy" >(of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? Don't know. Don't know how hide-and-seek would oppose it either. >And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I >spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by >ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? There are boy-girl variants of hide-and-seek -- IIRC -- in which (e.g.) when the man finds the hiding woman (could be vice versa) he is supposed to hide with her: maybe no more salacious than ballroom dancing, but still it makes a sort of a couple, I guess. >Or relate "I >spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's >"Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, >and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? My casual impression is that the tea table demolition might refer simply to voracious eating, the warmth simply to heated political discussions ("party" = "partisanship" or so, I think). I have put a question on Dave Wilton's Wordorigins.org discussion board; some participants there have shown some familiarity with Dutch in the past. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 04:31:23 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 00:31:23 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". > > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > appears in DARE. Indeed. From Stewart Culin, "Street Games of Boys in Brooklyn, N. Y." _Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 4, No. 14 (Jul. 1891), p. 226: ----- I Spy, or Hide and Seek. A boundary of a block is agreed upon, within which the players may hide, and then they count out to determine who shall be "it" for the first game. A lamp-post or tree is taken as the "home" or "hunk;" the one who is "it" must stand there with his eyes closed, and count five hundred by fives, crying out each hundred in a loud voice, while the others go hide. [etc.] ----- I don't see anything in that Culin article suggesting a "Scotch" origin, as Hoke claims. Dutch does indeed seem far more likely. Here's the OED etymology for the relevant sense of "hunk": ----- [a. Du. _honk_ goal, home, in a game; of Frisian origin: cf. WFris. _honcke_, _honck_ 'house, place of refuge or safe abode' (Japix); EFris. _hunk_ 'corner, nook, retreat, home in a game' (Doornkaat-Koolman).] ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 07:39:40 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 03:39:40 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" invented and named (of course) in Clarinda, Iowa in 1901 or 1902 Message-ID: Linda Stradley has this Clarinda, Iowa "hamburger" story on her website (whatscookingamerica.net), from an undated article in the Omaha (NE) World-Herald. I found another article in the Lincoln (NE) Star through Google News Archive, care of NewspaperArchive. Oddly, I used the same keywords directly in NewspaperArchive, and the article didn't show up in the results! ... NewspaperArchive has been heavily digitizing Iowa newspapers, so it's odd that no state newspaper tells the story of how the hamburger was invented in 1901-1902 in Clarinda, Iowa. ... These stories are all so ridiculous. There's always someone who says, "What will we call the new sandwich?" Never mind that "Hamburg Steak" and "hamburger" were terms that already existed for many years. ... ... ... http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HamburgerHistory.htm Clarindan Is 'Dan' of Hamburgers, Omaha World-Herald, by Paige Carlin, date unknown. (From Bibliography--B.P.) ... 1901 or 1902 - Bert W. Gary of Clarinda, Iowa, in an article by Paige Carlin for the Omaha World Herald newspaper, takes no credit for having invented it, but he stakes uncompromising claim to being the "daddy" of the hamburger industry. He served his hamburger on a bun: The hamburger business all started about 1901 or 1902 (The Grays aren't sure which) when Mr. Gray operated a little cafe on the east side of Clarinda's Courthouse Square. Mr. Gray recalled: "There was an old German here named Ail Wall (or Wahl, maybe) and he ran a butcher shop. One day he was stuffing bologna with a little hand machine, and he said to me: 'Bert, why wouldn't ground meat make a good sandwich?'" "I said I'd try it, so I took this ground beef and mixed it with an egg batter and fried it. I couldn't bet anybody to eat it. I quit the egg batter and just took the meat with a little flour to hold it together. The new technique paid off." "He almost ran the other cafes out of the sandwich business," Mrs. Gray put in. "He could make hamburgers so nice and soft and juicy - better than I ever could," she added. "This old German, Wall, came over here from Hamburg, and that's what he said to call it," Mr. Gray explained. "I sold them for a nickel apiece in those days, That was when the meat was 10 or 12 cents a pound," he added. "I bought $5 or $6 worth of meat at a time and I got three or four dozen pans of buns from the bakery a day." One time the Grays heard a conflicting claim by a man (somewhere in the northern part of the state) that he was the hamburger's inventor. "I didn't pay any attention to him," Mr. Gray snorted. "I've got plenty of proof mine was the first," he said. ... ... ... 23 June 1977, Lincoln (NE) Star, "Bert's burgers were culinary legacy to U.S.", The Staffer by Deb Gray, pg. 10, cols. 1-5: My great-grandfather claimed that he started a revolution in American cuisine. he claimed he created the first hamburger. (...) My Aunt Lucille, who has always lived in Clarinda, Iowa, the town where I grew up, remembered his story. She told it to me. I also read his story in a World-Herald clipping and a Chamber of Commerce pamphlet. Around the turn of the century (as in all oral history, dates are muddied), Bert Gray had a restaurant on the north side of the town square in Clarinda, Iowa. One morning he walked a few doors down the block, as he did every morning, to buy meat for that day's cooking. The butcher shop was owned by a German, a man named Ohm (or Ahm, Aunt Lucille wasn't sure). He was grinding sausage. "Bert," he said, "don't you think ground-up beef would make a good sandwich?" "You grind some for me, and I'll try it," my grandfather said. When my grandfather returned to the restaurant, he first coated the ground beef with an egg and milk mixture. These were the pre-soybean filler days, you know, and the beef needed gloop to make it stay pattied. But the stuff didn't taste right. My grandfather tried again. This time, he coated the meat with flour, pattied it, then tried it. He put it between bread, tasted it and loved it. The hamburger was born. After he made the sandwich, he took one to the German butcher. "What should we call it?" my grandfather asked. The butcher thought a moment, the laughed. "Let's call it the hamburger," he said. "Why? There's no ham in it." As it turned out, the German butcher originally was from Hamburg, Germany. he named the sandwich after his hometown. The hamburger soon became the hottest-selling item on Bert Gray's menu. he bought ground beef at 12 cents a pound and sold each hamburger for 5 cents each. At that time, many traveling types stopped in Clarinda, sort of a midpoint between Omaha and Kansas City. My aunt said the hamburger's reputation must have spread that way. [Traveling types stopping in Clarinda, Iowa. Must have been -- ed.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 4 08:27:49 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:27:49 +0100 Subject: Spear phishing In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52C92BA5F@XMBIL101.northgrum.com> Message-ID: > "Spear phishing" is a term that is new to me. It has been around a while. I noted it in the newsletter in April 2006. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Thu Oct 4 10:27:47 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 06:27:47 -0400 Subject: Spear-phishing Message-ID: 'Spear-Phishing' is actually at least a couple of years old--I've heard it at least that long (with my other hat I develop computer security policies and training materials). It's mentioned in the wikipedia article on phishing, and Microsoft has a webpage on it, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing http://www.microsoft.com/protect/yourself/phishing/spear.mspx and here's an older NYT reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/04/business/yourmoney/04spear.html Google gives 143,000 hits. -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:00:34 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:00:34 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071004040158.DVNT6229.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 12:02 AM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>... I had to use Wikipedia to remind myself what "I spy" >>is. But did the name mean the same game in 1892? > >Probably not. It was usually described as an outdoors hide-and-seek game. > >>How does "I spy" >>(of today) oppose to something called "maintain truth"? > >Don't know. Don't know how hide-and-seek would oppose it either. > >>And finally -- who can divine the relationship between a game like "I >>spy" and the very possibly salacious activities inquired about by >>ladies between 15 and 50 in my 1736 newspaper letter? > >There are boy-girl variants of hide-and-seek -- IIRC -- in which >(e.g.) when the man finds the hiding woman (could be vice versa) he >is supposed to hide with her: maybe no more salacious than ballroom >dancing, but still it makes a sort of a couple, I guess. Yes, good suggestion. I too remember this from my dimming youth, and as including boy-girl "play" as well, or at least the aroma of it. Perhaps at the 1736 "Hunc over de" club meetings (or at least in the possibly-satiric article) when a man found a hiding woman he went off with her to a private room. That would fit the comment, and choice of words, of the young widow: "... as it is described to her, there is no Difficulty in their Sport but what may be soon acquired, that she conceives she understands it well, and proposes another Society of Hunc over de's to be established by the Company present, with a competent Number of Males, but submits it to your Advice, and the Opinion of the younger Ladies, for the Elder she thinks are less interested in the Matter." >>Or relate "I >>spy" to the somewhat casual mention in connection with the men's >>"Hunc over de" club that near to demolished the ladies' tea table, >>and became as warm as scallopt Oysters? > >My casual impression is that the tea table demolition might refer >simply to voracious eating, the warmth simply to heated political >discussions ("party" = "partisanship" or so, I think). Yes, "party" seems definitely a play on partisan political factions; that sense was I think becoming common at that period, the age of Walpole. >I have put a question on Dave Wilton's Wordorigins.org discussion >board; some participants there have shown some familiarity with Dutch >in the past. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:03:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:03:35 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Ben [off-list]. I think we're homing in on it. Now if there only were some primary source information about the phrase and "club"! Joel At 10/4/2007 12:31 AM, you wrote: >On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > >----- > > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > > >----- > > > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". > > > > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > > appears in DARE. > >Indeed. From Stewart Culin, "Street Games of Boys in Brooklyn, N. Y." >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 4, No. 14 (Jul. 1891), p. 226: > >----- >I Spy, or Hide and Seek. >A boundary of a block is agreed upon, within which the players may >hide, and then they count out to determine who shall be "it" for the >first game. A lamp-post or tree is taken as the "home" or "hunk;" the >one who is "it" must stand there with his eyes closed, and count five >hundred by fives, crying out each hundred in a loud voice, while the >others go hide. [etc.] >----- > >I don't see anything in that Culin article suggesting a "Scotch" >origin, as Hoke claims. Dutch does indeed seem far more likely. Here's >the OED etymology for the relevant sense of "hunk": > >----- >[a. Du. _honk_ goal, home, in a game; of Frisian origin: cf. WFris. >_honcke_, _honck_ 'house, place of refuge or safe abode' (Japix); >EFris. _hunk_ 'corner, nook, retreat, home in a game' >(Doornkaat-Koolman).] >----- > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 14:14:24 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:14:24 -0400 Subject: "rough music"and the OED Message-ID: "Rough music" is defined in OED2 only in the literal sense of "noisy uproar", with its earliest cite 1708. But it also seems to have been used to describe extra-legal punishment. "'Rough music' is the generic English name for the ritual of punishment in which a person violating the community's norms of morality was paraded on a horse or donkey, a wooden horse, or a poll or staff" (Jacob & Jacob, ed., _The Origins of Anglo-American Radicalism (1991), page 189). Should this sense be added to the OED's definition? (I do not have any 18th c. quotations.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 14:55:03 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:55:03 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. > > This "I spy" was apparently what would now be called "hide and seek". FWIW, I've always known "I spy" and "hide and (go) seek" to be coevally the same game, but with different "calls": I spy / Hicker(?) more(?) rye(?) ..." (unfortunately, I no longer remember the rest of this call and I have no idea as to whether the call beyond "I spy" consisted of actual words that I was simply too young to understand in the context of the call or whether it was a mere wordless chant) v. "Last night / Night before ..." On the basis of everything that I've ever read that mentions these games, starting from the first grade, I have no reason to think that the equating of these two games is peculiarly a black thang, hough it could be (sigh!) an age thing. -Wilson > "Hunk" = "home"/"base" in such games, apparently, = Dutch "honk". It > appears in DARE. > > So maybe the "Hunc over De" club name is basically Dutch (or Low > German), and refers to games of hide-and-seek? > > Maybe some of the savants can easily identify the relevant Dutch > expression, but I surely can't. I know "over" = "over", and maybe > "de" = "die" = "that" .... > > Otherwise, one might post an inquiry on the Lowlands list. [Last time > I did, though, I got only an incomprehensible reply in some Low > German dialect from a joker.] > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1046 - Release Date: 10/3/2007 10:08 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 15:20:55 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:20:55 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041403.l94E3arX015123@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Something that I overlooked earlier seems to be the clincher that the "hunc over de" article is satiric and sexual: It is signed Your Humble Servant, Trusty Roger We all remember William Byrd's 1711 "I rogered my wife", don't we? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:07:47 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:07:47 -0400 Subject: Two other countries separated by a common language In-Reply-To: <200710022104.l92KXEll005463@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, that's an exceedingly obvious possibility, now that it's been pointed out. It's amazing how quickly the opaque can become transparent, under the right circumstances. :-) If the truth be told, I myself have been faked out by the Bostonic pronunciation of "guard" as, to the inexperienced ear, "god." I once overheard a couple of local girls attempting to flirt with a security guard, who was brushing them off: "What's your name?" "You can call me 'God.'" -Wilson On 10/2/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > [I]t's possible that in her primary concern for finding the ladies = > room she didn't pay much attention to the fellow's reaction.=20 > =20 > Gerald Cohen > > ________________________________ > > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray > Sent: Tue 10/2/2007 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: Two other countries separated by a common language > > > > Did she say what the local's response to this was? He would have > understood it as: > > "I know the guards can tell me. I was looking for someone closer to = > earth." > > He must have been totally discombobulated. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:28:47 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:28:47 -0400 Subject: Heard on the Judges Message-ID: Twenty-ish, black-male speaker: "He started _talking head_, so we went outside to _sport things out_." "Talk head" for "talk shit" ("talk trash" is a euphemism in BE) not in Google or Urban Dictionary. Three Google hits in toto, all relevant, for "sport things out"; not in Urban Dictionary. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:34:27 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:34:27 -0400 Subject: Double Decker, Cannibal Sandwiches (1891); Roast Beef a la Astor House (1893); Bowery Lingo (1899) Message-ID: 27 April 1891, San Antonio (TX) Daily Light, pg. 11?, col. 1: SANDWICH-EATING DETROIT The Combination of Bread and Meat the Leading Delicacy. Detroit Free Press. "How many sandwiches are consumed un Detroit daily?" was asked of a dealer in the more or less toothsome articles yesterday. "You will not believe me," he answered, when I tell you that Detroiters eat daily 10,000 sandwiches, yet that is a low estimate." (...)(Col. 2) The sandwich man concluded his philosophic homily on life and eating with a seductive list of the various kinds of sandwiches that tickle the public palate. As he gave them they are as follows: Turkey, chicken, ham, oyster, sardine, salmon, ox tongue, roast beef, egg, orange marmalade, double deckers and cannibal -- The latter meaning a raw beef sandwich, being especially adapted to prize-fighters, and so forth. ... ... ... 15 November 1893, Salem (OH) Daily News, pg. 3, col. 4: A Luscious Sandwich. There is served at the house restaurant -- and for that matter at the senate restaurant -- a dish that is fit for the interior of any man, high or low, rich or poor, old or young, whom the Lord has ever suffered to live and sin. It is composed of a couple of slices of tender beef, divinely roasted, inclosed between slices of bread, divinely browned, and over all is poured a half pint of the golden juice of the meat, vulgarly known as gravy, but whose right name is "ambrosia." This dish in its entirety is down on the bills as "hot roast beef sandwich." It had its birth in the once famed Astor House and is the favorite brain child of a cook upon whom one day descended an inspiration. For a long time it was distinguished upon the capitol cartes as "a la Astor House." It has become so much a favorite with the feeders in the big building, however, that its New York patronymic has been dropped. -- Washington Post. ... ... ... 27 January 1899, Sandusky (OH) Star, pg. 1, col. 4: OUR NEW YORK LETTER Bowery Eating House Lingo -- Snowshoes in New York -- A Costly Strip of Land. [Special Correspondence.] Bowery English is a language of its own. It is distinctly foreign to the Anglo-Saxon commonly in vogue in the ordinary walks of life. It is used almost exclusively in the restaurants of the thoroughfare and is apt to startle strangers. For instance, a customer not accustomed to the life of the Bowery, who wandered into one of its restaurants by mistake, might call for ham and eggs, and the waiter would yell to the cook. "A slice for a gazabo wid a souvenir from de feather factory." Or perhaps the customer would desire two eggs fried plain. The waiter's order to the kitchen would be in the choicest Bowery dialect about as follows. "T'row on a pair of de white wings an have de sunny side up." A glass of milk would bring forth an order for cow juice "wid an overcoat." A steak, "number seven;" beef stew, "mixed Irish," pork and beans, "Boston labor and Chicago capital," corned beef sandwich, "stare the cow in the face;" mush and milk, "disturbed hen fruit;" Spanish omelet, "Santiago cake walk;" chocolate eclair, "French roll wid black dirt on it;" rice and cream, "Chinese white wedding," and so on until every article on the bill of fare has its own name. "Why do we talk dat way to de cooks?" asked one of the waiters in reply to a query. "Why, dem blokies wouldn't know what youse wuz talkin about if youse said it any udder way." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 16:36:27 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041521.l94AkLQd025173@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Roger" vb. is still fairly common in UK porn. So I've been given to understand. I wonder whether there's a connection between the "Roger" in "Trusty Roger" and that in "Jolly Roger." Both cases appear to have to do with someone getting fucked. -Wilson On 10/4/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Something that I overlooked earlier seems to be the clincher that the > "hunc over de" article is satiric and sexual: It is signed > > Your Humble Servant, > Trusty Roger > > We all remember William Byrd's 1711 "I rogered my wife", don't we? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 17:04:40 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:04:40 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710040309.l93L2tmw018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/3/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >----- > >"Folk-Custom and Folk-Belief in North Carolina," by N. C. Hoke. > >_Journal of American Folklore_ Vol. 5, No. 17 (Apr. 1892), p. 118 > >"I spy" is more commonly played under the name of "Hunk Over-Dee." I > >had supposed this a collection of arbitrary sounds, until Mr. Culin's > >article gave ground for the belief that the name comes from a Scotch > >playground. "Over the Dee" was probably the _Ultima Thule_ of a home, > >or hunk, to these Scotch children. > >----- > > There was something in N&Q too, but I can see only the despicable snippet. Here 'tis. The explanation of the metaphorical extension seems plausible to me, if not the allusion to the River Dee. (So now we have Dutch, Scottish, and Welsh provenances!) ----- http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March 1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or dodging. This shows the game has long been known in Pennsylvania or the vicinity, as that paper circulated in the neighbouring provinces as well as New York. I have been unable to find it in Strutt or in any book of sports and games, and have consulted many. The fact of its not being known in any other state at the present day except Western New Jersey and Delaware, where the early settlers, like those of Pennsylvania, were mostly English and Welsh Quakers from those counties in the neighbourhood of the river Dee, would seem to indicate its origin as having some connexion with that river, where it was probably played by the little Quaker children in their old homes on its banks nearly two centuries ago. Ormerod, however, does not speak of it. The persecution of the worthy disciples of George Fox: was so great in North Wales that most of their meetings were entirely broken up at an early date and the members emigrated in a body to Pennsylvania, where now exist many Welsh names as well as those of Cheshire, both local and family, also old English words peculiar to the latter place which have gone out of general use. WILLIAM JOHN POTTS. Camden, New Jersey, U.S.A. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 4 17:14:16 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:14:16 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/4/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ----- > http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a > _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 > "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in > Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I > spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' > Dee Brown," &c. [snip] The name of the game was also spelled "hunk-a-dee" in the Philadelphia area, as found in these two books: _History of Old Germantown_ (1907), Naaman H. Keyser, et al. http://books.google.com/books?id=8dgLAAAAYAAJ _Early Reminiscences._ (1927), Samuel L Parrish. http://books.google.com/books?id=s3BEAAAAMAAJ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 17:34:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 13:34:33 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" and the Oh-Ee-Dee? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Time to put it into the OED? Joel At 10/4/2007 01:14 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/4/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > ----- > > http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a > > _Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 > > "HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in > > Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I > > spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' > > Dee Brown," &c. >[snip] > >The name of the game was also spelled "hunk-a-dee" in the Philadelphia >area, as found in these two books: > >_History of Old Germantown_ (1907), Naaman H. Keyser, et al. >http://books.google.com/books?id=8dgLAAAAYAAJ > >_Early Reminiscences._ (1927), Samuel L Parrish. >http://books.google.com/books?id=s3BEAAAAMAAJ > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 18:26:28 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:28 -0400 Subject: Cannibal Sandwich (1889) ("hamburgers in the raw") Message-ID: OED has no entry for "cannibal sandwich," a somewhat popular item in the early 1900s. Of course, I re-checked NewspaperArchive for "Cannibal" + "Sandwiches" (I'd found the item searching for "Beef" + "Sandwiches"), and didn't find the 1891 article I'd just read in the other search results! ... ... ... 3 January 1889, Baltimore (MD) Sun, supplement, pg. 2: "The horrid thing," they both faintly gasped, and the German chorister took his departure and his friend along, shaking out the delightful aroma of cannibal sandwiches as he passed down the aisle. ... ... 20 November 1899, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. 8: The Saunterer felt ravenously hungry yesterday noon, and intimated as much to a friend who was with him. "Come lunch with me," promptly responded the latter. "I'll take you to a place you've never been in before, and give you a meal that you've never had before. And that meal will consist of one sandwich. COme along." And the Saunterer did. The other man led the way to a place in the heart of the city, the entrance to which was on a side street. The place looked eminently satisfying, and the Saunterer felt prepared for anything. "Bring us a couple of cannibal sandwiches," said the friend to the waiter. "And don't put any onions in." It sounded rather guessable and the Saunterer waited in apprehensive silence. Presently the waiter returned with the sandwich. It consisted of two slices of bread about nine inches long and five in width buttered a quarter of an inch thick. One of the slices was covered by a half-inch layer of red meat minced. Both started to eat, but after the Saunterer had gulped down four mouthfuls through a face that was painful in its efforts to smile he demanded emphatically to know what it was. "Cannibal sandwich," answered his friend. "I know that," was the answer. "Well, it's made of raw beef, chopped very fine, and it's very good for you. See, they're eating them all around us." and they were, so the Saunterer worked at his a little while longer. The sandwich fully lived up to its reputation. For the Saunterer hasn't really felt hungry since. ... ... (LIVE SEARCH BOOKS) Canning and Preserving of Food Products with Bacteriological Technique by Edward Wiley Duckwall ? 1905 ? 478 pages ? 100% viewable Many people eat uncooked meat in the so-called "cannibal sandwiches," smoked sturgeon and halibut, and m the same meal eat canned goods. If poisoning results, too often the blame is fastened on them ... ... ... 24 February 1907, Fort Worth (TX) Telegram, pg. 9: Cannibal Sandwiches of Rye Bread. -- Put half a pound of raw beef thru a meat chopper; add a teaspoonful of salt, a dash of red pepper and a tablespoonful of onion juice. Spread this over buttered rye bread, cover with another piece of bread and trim away the crusts. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Up-to-date Sandwich Book: 400 Ways to Make a Sandwich - Page 66 by Eva Greene Fuller - 1909 - 180 pages CANNIBAL SANDWICH Chop raw beef and onions very fine, season with salt and pepper, and spread on lightly buttered brown bread. MEAT AND MUSHROOM SANDWICH ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Mental Adjustments - Page 79 by Frederic Lyman Wells - 1917 - 331 pages ... pair of white wings wid de sunny side up (poached eggs), cannibal sandwich (beefsteak tartare), three diamond studs (portion of Hamburger steak). ... ... ... (LIVE SEARCH BOOKS) Handbook of Medical Treatment by John Chalmers Da Costa ? 1920 ? 1024 pages ? 100% viewable Some r the juice of the raw meat and the raw scraped beef, which may be given properly seasoned in the form of a cannibal sandwich, on thin stale or toasted bread. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Edgewater Sandwich Book: With Chapters on Supremes, Hors D'oeuvres ... by Arnold Shircliffe - 1930 - 260 pages Page 120 Raw Beef Sandwich?II Cannibal Sandwich Spread thin slices of bread with finely ground or chopped ... This is called tartar or cannibal sandwich at times. ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Outdoor Cooking - Page 370 by Cora Lovisa Brackett Brown, Rose Johnston Brown - 1940 - 506 pages But lest we be led astray, it is well to remember that Cannibal Sandwiches are naught but hamburgers in the raw, and when the onion is mixed in and the meat ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 4 19:11:54 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:11:54 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 01:04 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a >_Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 >"HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in >Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I >spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' >Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I >find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March >1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game >of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as >playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or >dodging. 1876 is the same year as "Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society, which discusses "Hunc over de" clubs on pp. 30-31. Saying "entirely", the N&Q writer thus missed what I now with confidence will call "satire with sexual overtones" in the March 1 article. And there is not one writer, but two. March 1 is "Trusty Roger", April 19 is "Diana" [the huntress?], who writes (in full; I have regularized italics and full caps): --------- Mr. Zenger; If you have room in your Journal, I should be oblig'd; if you will give this small Billet a Place in it. It is only to desire you will inform me, whether an Act of the Legislature cannot be procured, to confine the prettie Game of Hunk over Dee, to the present Set of Company that play at it? My Reason for this is, because, I think all projectors, ought to be encouraged by the publick. Besides it is my Opinion, that our Posterity should know, who were the Hunk over Dees, and that their dependants might ever be distinguished, from those that play the silly Game of maintain Truth, your speedy Answer will be very Acceptable to your constant Reader. Diana. ---------------- This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know [although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier letter from "Trusty Roger" does. (EAN has certainly confused me about the dates. It calls the March 1 issue "Date: 03-01-1735", not identifying it as Old Style. The reason my EAN searches did not find it previously is that I was looking only in the year 1736!) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 19:26:39 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:26:39 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031649.l93Aq9CF028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two versions. FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > > bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > > > I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > I didn't see anything in this story ("Chunk" by Lum Duke, from the > Atlanta Constitution) explicitly mentioning the race of the > protagonists, Tom Hubbard and his beloved Mary Elizabeth (aka Chunk). > They're described as rural Georgia folk -- she had "always lived hid > away in the pine mountains on the Chattahoochee River." When such > 19th-century stories featured black characters, they tended to be more > "marked" -- unless, of course, the eye-dialect itself was intended as > evidence of racial markedness. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 4 20:47:32 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:47:32 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031638.l93G4KI4018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > used to represent [@:]). > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > > > > On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > Wilson, > > > > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > > both). > > > > dInIs > > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >----------------------- > > >Sender: American Dialect Society > > >Poster: Wilson Gray > > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > > >gwine _ter_ do it." > > > > > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > > > > > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > > > > > >-Wilson > > > > > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >>----------------------- > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > > >> > > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > > >> > > > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > > >> > > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > > >> > > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > > >> > > >> > > >> --Ben Zimmer > > >> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >> > > > > > > > > >-- > > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > >----- > > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > University Distinguished Professor > > Department of English > > 15C Morrill Hall > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing, MI 48824 > > 517-353-4736 > > preston at msu.edu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 4 22:58:29 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:58:29 +0000 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041912.l94JBvlc027535@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Whatever, it is cool to find that folks were writing the much-maligned "the reason is. because" in 1876! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Joel S. Berson" Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 15:11:54 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? At 10/4/2007 01:04 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >http://nq.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/s5-VI/157/534-a >_Notes and Queries_, 5th S. VI, Dec. 30, 1876, p. 534, col. 1 >"HUNK O' DEE." -- This is the singular name of a boys' game in >Pennsylvania which is very similar to "I spy." Instead of saying "I >spy Brown, Jones, or Robinson," as the case may be, we say "Hunk o' >Dee Brown," &c. It is a contraction of the words "Hunk over Dee," as I >find in two communications to Zenger's New York Weekly Journal, March >1 and April 19, 1736, by a writer who often speaks of the "pretty game >of Hunk over Dee," which he charges his political opponents as >playing, using it entirely in a metaphorical sense of evasion or >dodging. 1876 is the same year as "Progress of New York in a Century, 1776-1876. An Address ...", by John Austin Stevens, New-York Historical Society, which discusses "Hunc over de" clubs on pp. 30-31. Saying "entirely", the N&Q writer thus missed what I now with confidence will call "satire with sexual overtones" in the March 1 article. And there is not one writer, but two. March 1 is "Trusty Roger", April 19 is "Diana" [the huntress?], who writes (in full; I have regularized italics and full caps): --------- Mr. Zenger; If you have room in your Journal, I should be oblig'd; if you will give this small Billet a Place in it. It is only to desire you will inform me, whether an Act of the Legislature cannot be procured, to confine the prettie Game of Hunk over Dee, to the present Set of Company that play at it? My Reason for this is, because, I think all projectors, ought to be encouraged by the publick. Besides it is my Opinion, that our Posterity should know, who were the Hunk over Dees, and that their dependants might ever be distinguished, from those that play the silly Game of maintain Truth, your speedy Answer will be very Acceptable to your constant Reader. Diana. ---------------- This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know [although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier letter from "Trusty Roger" does. (EAN has certainly confused me about the dates. It calls the March 1 issue "Date: 03-01-1735", not identifying it as Old Style. The reason my EAN searches did not find it previously is that I was looking only in the year 1736!) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 01:10:43 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:10:43 -0400 Subject: Grilled Cheese Sandwich (1929, 1930) and Toasted Cheese Sandwich Message-ID: The New York Times devoted a long article to LA's devotion to the "grilled cheese sandwich" last Wednesday (yesterday; see below, at the bottom). I decided to look at cites for "grilled cheese sandwich" and also "toasted cheese sandwich." ... We've discussed the sandwich here before, and other thoughts are appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/grilled_cheese_sandwich_toasted_cheese_sandwich/ ... Entry from October 04, 2007 Grilled Cheese Sandwich (Toasted Cheese Sandwich) Los Angeles hosts an annual "Grilled Cheese Invitational," but the origins of the grilled cheese sandwich are up for debate. The name "grilled cheese" sandwich is cited in a New York State newspaper in 1928 and in a Texas newspaper in 1930. Bread and cheese is a natural combination, and "ramekins" (a bread and cheese dish) is cited from 1700s. "Toasted cheese sandwiches" were on menus from the 1900s and were popularly cited in newspapers by 1910. The Wikipedia (below) claims that the sandwiches were served "open face" until the 1960s, but 1910s citations show some "closed" sandwiches. Cooks.com GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH The most important part of any meal is the time and effort you put in to it. To make a great Grilled Cheese Sandwich you need fresh cheese and fresh bread. Ingredients are bread, cheese, and butter. Take 2 pieces of bread, a slice of cheese and insert the cheese in between the bread, butter the outside of the bread on each side. Place in a pan on low heat and turn when needed, until both sides are golden brown. Serve with pickles and potato chips on the side. Cooks.com GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH 2 slices bread 2 slices American cheese Butter 1 napkin Toast bread in toaster. Spread butter on both sides of toast. Place cheese slices between toast. Place on napkin in microwave. Microwave 30 seconds on high. Wikipedia: Grilled cheese sandwich A grilled cheese sandwich, (also known as cheese toasty or toasted cheese sandwich) is a form of toasted sandwich that consists of two slices of bread and at least one slice of cheese melted in between. There are various methods of preparation which vary depending on taste and convention. In the United States it is most common for the assembled sandwich to be buttered on the outside and placed on a griddle, pan, cast iron skillet, or dedicated sandwich maker to be heated (technically, the word 'grilled' in the name of the meal is inaccurate). Once the bread on the bottom half of the sandwich has reached a toast-like texture, the sandwich is flipped, and continues cooking until the other side has toasted or the cheese has melted. Another method of cooking the grilled cheese is to butter one slice of bread on both sides, grill the bottom side until the butter melts, then flip. Wait for the inside to be grilled, flip and add the cheese. Then butter the other slice of bread and grill then place the slices of bread together. In the United Kingdom the sandwich would most commonly be grilled either (open face as cheese on toast) under a grill (broiler) or, more usually, in a toasted sandwich maker. In the UK the sandwich would not normally be cooked in the American fashion, using a frying pan. Cheddar is most commonly used whilst in the US, traditionally American cheese is used; however, other cheeses such as gouda, Velveeta cheese and Swiss can be used. It is often supplemented with additional ingredients, most notably bacon and/or tomato, but also avocado, tuna, meat, pickles, herbs, spices, and condiments such as mustard, tomato sauce, or Worcestershire sauce. It is traditionally accompanied by tomato soup. Some recipes call for grilled cheese sandwiches to be served with ketchup as the condiment of choice. The grilled cheese sandwich is a variation on the very old combination of bread and cheese. The modern grilled cheese sandwich (American cheese and sliced white bread) began in the 1920s as an open sandwich. The additional slice of bread became common in the 1960s. In the early 1970s, a Canadian restaurant owner by the name Dach Johnston was credit for the addition of bacon to the sandwich, however, evidence of this has not yet been proven. (Oxford English Dictionary) ramekin A small quantity of cheese, with bread-crumbs, eggs, etc., usually baked and served in a special mould. Chiefly pl. 1706 PHILLIPS, Ramequin (Fr. in Cookery), toasted Cheese and Bread, a Toast and Cheese. Ramequins are also small slices of Bread-crum cover'd with a Farce made of pounded Cheese, Eggs and other Ingredients bak'd in a Pie-pan. 1754 Connoisseur No. 19 Toasted cheese is already buried in rammelkins. Feeding America by Jane Cunningham Croly New York, NY: The American News Co. 1870 Pg. 108: TOASTED CHEESE.?1. Grate three ounces of fat cheese, mix it with the yolk of one egg, four ounces of grated bread and three ounces of butter, beat the whole well in a mortar, with a dessert-spoonful of mustard, and a little salt and pepper. (Pg. 109?ed.) egg, four ounces of grated bread and three ounces of butter, beat the whole well in a mortar, with a dessert-spoonful of mustard, and a little salt and pepper. Toast some slices of bread, lay the paste thick upon it, put it for a minute before the fire and send to table very hot. TOASTED CHEESE.?2. Put into a clean sauce-pan a table-spoonful of either ale (not bitter) or cold water; add some slices of toasting cheese, and let it simmer until it is melted, stirring it all the time. Have ready in a bowl some good ale, sweeten it to the taste with moist sugar and add some grated nutmeg. Toast slices of bread without either burn or crust, put them hot into the bowl, to take the chill off the ale, then put a slice of the toast on a hot plate for each person, and pour upon it as much of the cooked cheese as may be agreeable. Take out of the bowl any remaining toast there may be left; stir well the sugar from the bottom, and drink the ale after eating the cheese. Google Books Luncheons: A Cook's Picture Book by Mary Arnold New York, NY: The Century Co. 1902 Pg. 209: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Make a filling of grated cheese, toast the sandwiches on both sides, and serve them hot. Google Books Louis' Every Woman's Cook Book by Louis Muckensturm New York, NY: Dodge Publishing Company 1910 Pg. 104: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Cut and toast six slices of bread. Cover three of them with thin slices of American cheese, and put in the oven in a tin pan. When the cheese is nearly melted, place the other slices of toast on top; keep the sandwiches for two more minutes in the oven to have them very hot. Trim off the crust and serve in a covered dish. 14 June 1910, Syracuse (NY) Post-Standard, pg. 12, col. 1: A quick dainty to whip up in the chafing dish is toasted cheese sandwiches, which are not widely known. Wheaten bread is used for these. Cut in rather thick slices and trim off the crusts. Between each two slices put a thick slice of cheese. Season, if liked, with salt and paprika. Melt in the blazer, a tablespoonful of butter, and when it reaches bubbling point lay in as many sandwiches as the dish will hold at one time conveniently. There must be room to turn them. Have the hot plates ready nearby. When the bread is brown on one side, turn and brown on the other. By this time the cheese will be melted between them and the sandwiches are ready to be enjoyed. 29 March 1911, Stevens Point (WI) Gazette, pg. 14, col. 3: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches. Make round sandwiches (round loaf is best) with slice of thin rich cheese the same size of the thin sliced bread. Brown butter in chafing dish and fry a good brown. Serve at once on individual plates. Fine for afternoon tea. 19 June 1913, Waukesha (WI) Freeman, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: Have You Tried Our Toasted Cheese Sandwiches? 26 November 1913, Grand Forks (ND) Daily Herald, pg. 8: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches. Plain bread and butter with slices of cheese put between as sandwiches are toasted or browned in the chafing dish after frying bacon. Google Books Meatless Cookery by Maria McIlvaine Gillmore 1914 Pg. 210: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Plain bread and butter sandwiches with fairly thick slices of cheese put between the slices are toasted, or at chafing-dish suppers may be browned in a pan. Use a slow heat that the cheese may be melted when the bread is browned. 4 August 1914, Wilkes-Barre (PA) Times-Leader, pg. 10: Toasted Cheese Sandwiches Cut slices of bread a little more thickly than is usual for sandwiches, spread 1 slice with butter and the other with a filling made by grating or grinding through a food chopper 1/2 pound of cheese, to which may be added any desired seasonings, as, for instance, a few drops of onion juice, a little butter if the cheese is dry, a little fresh or canned pepper or a sprinkling of nuts. Spread the filling generously on the bread, press the two slices firmly together and toast the outer surfaces, during which process the cheese will slightly melt. Serve very hot, not preparing the sandwiches until ready to place them on the table. 29 August 1917, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. 7: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES Prepare toast, dip in hot salted water. Spread slice with grated cheese; place in a pan in oven long enough to melt the cheese. Put slices together as sandwiches. Feeding America The International Jewish Cook Book by Florence Kreisler Greenbaum New York, NY: Bloch Publishing Company\ 1919 Pg. 9: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICHES The filling for the toasted cheese sandwiches calls for a cup of soft, mild cheese, finely cut, and stirred over the fire with a tablespoon of butter until the cheese is melted. Enough milk to moisten, perhaps not more than one-eighth of a cup, is then added, with salt, mustard and paprika to taste, and the whole is stirred until creamy and smooth. Slices of bread are very thinly buttered, the cheese mixture spread on generously, each slice covered with another slice, and set away until the filling cools and hardens, when the sandwiches are toasted on both sides and served hot. Google Books Castelar Cr?che Cook Book by Board of Directors, Castelar Cr?che Home for Homeless Babies Los Angeles, CA: Times- Mirror Printing and Binding House 1922 Pg. 255: TOASTED CHEESE SANDWICH Remove crusts from slices of bread and then butter the slices thinly. Spread 1 slice with finely minced ham and place over this a slice of American cheese sprinkled with cayenne pepper and salt, then add another slice of bread, more cheese, properly seasoned, and finally a third slice of bread. Toast these under a gas broiler and when the cheese is melted, cut diagonally, making triangular sandwiches. 22 April 1929, Syracuse (NY) Herald, section X, pg. 16, col. 7: Dishes That May Be Prepared on an Electric Grill. 1. All types of hot sandwiches such as grilled cheese, tongue and egg, club, sardine, etc. Google Books The Edgewater Sandwich Book by Arnold Shircliffe Chicago, IL: J. Willy, Inc. Page 156 ... and in the eating you will find that the yells are blended into a delicious whole. Toast See French Toast Toasted Cheese Sandwich (Open) Toast, ... 7 June 1930, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 14, col. 1: AUTO LUNCHES FOR THE WEEK-END TRIP GRILLED CHEESE SAND- WICHES DELIGHTFUL WHEN MADE IN THE OPEN (...) Grilled cheese sandwiches are delightful when made in the open. Lay large, thin slices of cheese between two slices of buttered bread. Either toast these on the end of a green stick or a gridiron or saute them in bacon fat in a saucepan. Those who take long hikes will be interested to know that if cheese is wrapped in a cloth moistened with vinegar, it will not mold so quickly. 25 January 1934, Milford (Iowa) Mail, pg. 2, col. 5: Miriam Lowenberg, of the foods and nutrition department at Iowa state has a special grilled cheese sandwich that goes straight to the heart. She spreads whole cream cheese on unbuttered bread, adds a bit of prepared mustard to which a drop of Worcestershire sauce has been added, then?and this is what makes it different?she butters the outside of the sandwich lightly and toasts it in the broiler oven, or browns it quickly in a heavy skillet. 21 February 1934, Huntingdon (PA) Daily News, pg. 7, col. 5: Grilled cheese sandwiches are nice, but you'd be surprised at the amount of difference added to the taste if halved walnuts are pressed into the cheese while the sandwich is warm. It's decidedly an improvement. 31 January 1935, The Garfieldian (Chicago, IL), pg. 6 ad: MALTED MILK and Grilled CHEESE SANDWICH 25c (Walgreen Drug Store?ed.) 29 May 1935, Huntingdon (PA) Daily News, pg. 7, col. 6: Grilled Cheese Sandwiches 4 October 1935, North Adams (MA) Transcript, pg. 9, col. 6 ad: Grilled Cheese Sandwich and Hot Chocolate, 20c 6 March 1936, Hammond (IN) Times, pg. 19, col. 5: Grilled Cheese Sandwiches 1 hard-cooked egg 1 1/2 tablespoons pimento 1 small onion 1/2 pound American cheese 1/2 cup evaporated milk 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon flour 1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce Put the egg, pimento and onion with the cheese through a food chopper using the medium knife. Melt the butter in a saucepan and add the flour with the seasoning. Add the milk and stir until the mixture comes to a boil. Combine this mixture with the cheese mixture and spread between slices of bread. Butter the outside of the bread and toast under a low flame until golden brown. 10 February 1938, Wisconsin Rapids (WI) Daily Tribune, pg. 7, col. 5 ad: GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH A tasty, filling delicious light lunch 14c (Ford Hopkins Drug Store?ed.) Live Search Books New York Panorama by Federal Writers' Project, New York City New York, NY: Random House 1938 Pg. 159 (The Local Vernacular): ...smear one, burn it for a toasted cheese sandwich;... 3 October 2007, New York Times, "No Glamour, but Sandwich Is a Star" by Jennifer Stenhauer: Thursday is grilled cheese night at Campanile, a standard-bearer of Italian dining in Los Angeles, and the restaurant's busiest night, when the tables bustle with families, hot daters, girls-night-out revelers downing prosecco, and divorced dads hoping to buy good will from their estranged children. The Melt Down, a restaurant in Culver City devoted to the gooey sandwich, has lines out the door at lunch. Every April is grilled cheese month at Clementine, a lunch spot near Century City, with an elaborate new theme each time. For the past four years, this city has also been home to the Grilled Cheese Invitational. Roughly 600 people show up at an unpublicized address, armed with frying pans and camping stoves, and are given 20 minutes to demonstrate their grilled cheese prowess. (One year, a contestant constructed an eight-foot grilled sandwich rendition of "The Gates" by Christo and Jeanne-Claude.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 02:51:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: Eggcorns? Message-ID: " ... _eyes glazed over_ ..." "His _eyes glassed over_." 2640 raw Google hits "My _eyes glossed over_." 890 raw Google hits; a mixture of obvious, IMO, eggcorns, with other stuff. Both "glassed over" and "glossed over" replace "glazed over," but "glossed over" is more often used in other, sometimes less-obvious, senses: "His _eyes glossed over_ Midori and shifted to Yuriko." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:07:50 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:07:50 -0400 Subject: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) In-Reply-To: <200710031624.l93G4KFW018085@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thank you, Ben! -Wilson On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: equidating "to the nines" (1787-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/3/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > So, which is earlier, e.g. "card sharper" or "card sharp"? And where > > does "card shark" fit in? > > I believe "card sharper" and "card sharp" are roughly contemporaneous. > OED has "card sharper" from 1859, and Mark Liberman found "card sharp" > from 1858: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003448.html > (Language Log: "Sharps, sharks and gentlemen") > > "Card shark" is a bit later -- I posted a cite from 1884 here two years ago: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0509a&L=ads-l&P=18683 > > (Wilson, at the time you wrote: "In my childhood, at the tail-end of > the great era of the horse opera, I could never be sure whether I was > hearing 'card sharp' or 'card shark.' It's a relief to know that I > really was hearing both!") > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:03:15 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710031930.l93IE16q028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, back in the day? -Wilson On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British > influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named > 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). > > dInIs > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote > >and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account > >for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless > >it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was > >followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE > >dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found > >not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read > >probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is > >irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set > >the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used > >it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native > >speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what > >I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have > >to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. > > > >That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > >-Wilson > > > >On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Wilson, > >> > >> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > >> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> both). > >> > >> dInIs > >> > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >----------------------- > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> > > >> >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> > > >> >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >> >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >> >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > > >> > > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >>----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > > > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> >> > >> >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> >> > >> >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> --Ben Zimmer > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Dennis R. Preston > >> University Distinguished Professor > >> Department of English > >> 15C Morrill Hall > >> Michigan State University > >> East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> 517-353-4736 > >> preston at msu.edu > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit > himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man > thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred > North Whitehead > > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > Morrill Hall 15-C > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA > Office: (517) 353-4736 > Fax: (517) 353-3755 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 04:56:08 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) Message-ID: OED added the "immigration smuggler" sense to "coyote" last year, with a 1924 citation. Here are two cites from 1923 and and earlier one from 1924...It's strange that J. Frank Dobie wrote a book called "The Voice of the Coyote" and neither OED nor HDAS cited from it? ... I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." I don't understand how I can be adding 5 new entries a day, but my visits are down about 2,000 per day from three months ago (when I was out of the country and made one new entry an entire month). ... The Texas Oklahoma game is this weekend, and I see that my most popular entries are "Tuck Fexas," "Fuck Texas," and "Fuck Y'all, I'm from Texas." (But not more than $5-a-day popular.) ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/coyotes_wolves_of_the_border_immigration_smugglers/ ... Entry from October 04, 2007 Coyotes ("wolves of the border" immigration smugglers) The coyote is an animal seen in the Southwest; J. Frank Dobie's The Voice of the Coyote (1949) tells of the folklore of the coyote. Smugglers of aliens (Mexicans and other nationalities) into the United States from Mexico have been called "coyotes" or "wolves of the border" since at least 1923. The 1918 silent film Wolves of the Border might have influenced both terms. Wikipedia: People smuggling People smuggling is a term which is used to describe transportation of people across international borders to a non-official entry point of a destination country for a variety of reasons. Typically those being transported may not have adequate formal travel documents or prior approval to enter the destination country. (...) In the Southwest United States, a "coyote" is a person paid to smuggle illegal immigrants across the border between Mexico and the United States. Snakeheads are smugglers from China who smuggle people into the United States and other Western countries. Internet Movie Database Wolves of the Border (1918) Director: Clifford Smith Writer: Alan James Release Date: 12 May 1918 (USA) more Genre: Western Plot Synopsis: This plot synopsis is empty. Add a synopsis Plot Keywords: Cowboy / Kidnapping / Rancher / Rescue Internet Movie Database Wolves of the Border (1923) Director: Alan James Release Date: 15 January 1923 (USA) more Genre: Western / Comedy / Drama (Oxford English Dictionary) coyote, n. Zool. The name, in Mexico and now in the United States, of the prairie- or barking-wolf (Canis latrans) of the Pacific slope of North America. (...) U.S. slang. A person hired to assist people in illegally crossing the border from Mexico into the United States. 1924 Los Angeles Times 4 June I. 12/7 There has been..the immigration service says, a band of criminals on this border, known as 'coyotes', who live by preying upon persons wishing to secure an easy entrance to the United States. 1943 Econ. Geogr. 19 359/2 The facilitators of illegal entrance, the smugglers or 'coyotes', the contractors or 'engachistas' who provided peons with jobs over the border. 1972 Los Angeles Times 17 Sept. (West Mag. section) 19/3 The coyote took us by way of Tecate in a station wagon? He let us out on the highway and we waited there..to lose the border patrol. (Historical Dictionary of American Slang) coyote n. Police. S.W. a labor contractor or other person who brings illegal immigrants into the U.S. from Mexico. 1929 Gill Und. Slang: Coyotes?Labor agents. 1970 S. Steiner La Raza 300: "Coyote!" is what the campesinos say of a man like Corrilio Macias. 1973 U.S. News & W.R. (July 23) 32: Smugglers, known as "coyotes" in the Mexican-American community in Los Angeles. 1974 Martinez & Longeaux y Vasquez La Raza 127: A worker in Mexico would be picked up by a labor smuggler?called a coyote. 1977 L.A. Times (Jan. 15) II 5: His name was Roberto and he paid a "coyote" 300 American dollars to smuggle him across the border. 24 May 1923, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Border Bandits Commit Many Murders: Immigration Inspector Says Recent Killing of Italians One of Many Similar Crimes," pg. 1, col. 8: A new race has sprung up on the Mexican side of the border, referred to often as the "wolves of the border." The greed for gold has got their blood aflame, and their prey is the simple European alien who wishes to make his home in America but is unable to comply with the immigration standards. ONE VICTIM ESCAPES. The recent murder of six Italians, who bartered for their passage across the Rio Grande only to be betrayed and shot down by their guides and robbed of their money, is believed to be only one of a series of wholesale murders the bandit smugglers have committed. (...) Captain Hanson, who has just returned from the border, believed that hundres of unsuspecting Europeans have met similar fates. The characters of the "coyotes" at the border are the lowest and "the murder of a fellow man means nothing to them,": he said. (...) Says Guides Are Coyotes. The "coyotes," as Captain Hanson refers to the guides, then return to take another party and if any questions are asked they simply state that the party has been safely carried across the river, with no one to deny their statement. 27 June 1923, San Antonio (TX) Express, "Scores of Mexicans Use Others' Head Tax Receipts to Enter United States," pg. 1, col. 2: Reports from Laredo Tuesday also told of the arrest of one German alien who claimed to have been robbed by "coyotes," the Mexican nickname for those who smuggle aliens across the river, the German charging that $150 had been taken from him. (...) (Col. 3 --ed.) He explained that the alien passes through the hands of about five "coyotes" before he reaches the American side of the river and ultimately falls into the hands of government officers who place him in jail for deportation. 11 January 1924, New Castle (PA) News, pg. 2, col. 6: With legal entrance of aliens practically cut off until June 30 the border "coyotes" a smugglers term for a criminal class which preys upon foreigners anxious to enter this country are becoming more active in piloting an undesirable class over the Mexican border, according to official reports. 19 January 1948, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "More Talk About Coyotes" by J. Frank Dobie, section I, pg. 13: In Mexican popular speech, coyote means: a pettifogger, a thief, any kind of shyster or go-between, a curbstone broker, a fixer who has "pull" to sell, an oil or mining scout with "practical experience" in selling leases, also the respectable Minister of Mines, a drink of mixed beer and brandy. As Lumholtz puts it, "the regard that the Indians have for their Mexican masters is shown in the name by which they refer to them?coyotes." Use in Southwestern States. On the border, a smuggler of aliens is called a coyote-enganchista. In the interior of Texas a certain kind of agent, often a jackleg lawyer, who hangs around court houses and charges ignorant Mexicans outrageous fees for services as commonplace as getting a notary public's certification is called a coyote. He is often a Mexican himself. In New Mexico, the name, among other meanings, denotes a half-breed?a mixture of Anglo and Hispano bloods or of Caucasian and Indian?who is loyal to neither line. Mexicans call bastard children coyotitos. Without aspersion they call also the last child in a family a coyotito. In the folklore of ignorance?and not all folklore by any means springs from ignorance?the coyote is a cross between lobo and fox. Google Books The Voice of the Coyote by J. Frank Dobie Boston, MA: Little, Brown 1949 Pg. 258: On the border, a smuggler-over of aliens is called a coyote enganchista. 10 April 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "INS nominee appears capable for job," section A, pg. 11: "We need tougher laws on the smugglers, the coyotes, the guys who smuggle people. They smuggle people and the penalties we assess are relatively light." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 5 02:04:07 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 22:04:07 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710041912.l94JBvlc027535@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious >political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as >honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know >[although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier >letter from "Trusty Roger" does. But some people are just named Roger or Diana. I don't see any sexual reference at all in Diana's letter. As for Roger's article, I think it's ambiguous; I'm not sure whether he's trying to be suggestive or not and if he is I have no idea whether he's justified. Maybe it's all a joke with no substance. OTOH, maybe he's underestimating an outrageous truth. I just don't think we can tell from so little material. There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony used to say. Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called "hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 5 10:06:06 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:06:06 -0400 Subject: minor antedating: "bats in his belfry" (1897) In-Reply-To: <20071003090154.0n1jzh6680408sgc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: The North American (Philadelphia, PA) Monday, July 26, 1897; pg. 4; col C Americanisms (News) [19th C US N] If you would be up to date don't tell a man he has trolleys in his head; but impress upon him the fact that he has "bats in his belfry." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 5 11:38:24 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 07:38:24 -0400 Subject: "Cracker Jack" (1870, 1884...) Message-ID: Is this relevant or not for the origin of "cracker jack"? 1870 The Milwaukee Sentinel, (Milwaukee, WI) Thursday, October 06, 1870; Issue 235; page 3, col A. A Cup of Cold Water Category: News [19th C US N] [col. D]....Chicago has lately seen an Indian half-breed who played at billiards so well, that he beat even "Cracker Jack," "Pete Snyder," and other billiard sharps. 1879 Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Friday, October 10, 1879; pg. 5; Issue 163; col E. Paying the Penalty Execution of McManus, the Molly Maguire?The Crime for Which He Suffered Category: News [col. F] Bloomingtin Ill. Oct. 9--Deputy Sheriff Cook arrived from Kansas City this morning with Jack McKeern, alias "Cracker Jack," who was recently indicted for highway robbery. 1884 St. Louis Globe-Democrat, (St. Louis, MO) Wednesday, October 15, 1884; pg. 6; Issue 146; col E Murdered by a Mob Two Terrible Crimes Stain the Annals of Callaway County Category: News [col. F] ....Jack McKern, a noted rough, known as "Cracker Jack," was sentenced to one tear in the Penitentiary for burglary. 1888 The Daily Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Sunday, September 02, 1888; pg. 12; Issue 165; col A. Celestials on the Diamond San Francisco Mongolians Wallop the Chicago Contingent by a Large Majority Category: News ....Then came the slugger, the shot-stop [sic], Wung Fung. He would get eighth money in a field of nine ordinary, corner-lot, street-gamins, as a batsman, but he was a "cracker jack" in this class." Lifting the willow, with that easy grace with which a coal-heaver would handle a billiard-cue, he "lined her out. 1888ff it spread into horse racing (cf ads-l archives, and stayed in baseball, and still in billiards:) 1891 The Daily Inter Ocean, (Chicago, IL) Monday, November 23, 1891; pg. 6; Issue 244; col C Billiardist Berger Michael Geary on the First Great Ivory Pusher Category: News ....he was a billiard-player...and a cracker-jack. 1892 Bismarck Daily Tribune, (Bismarck, ND) Tuesday, February 09, 1892; pg. 2; col A It seems, according to goosipy newspaper reports, that Congressman Johnson was not the only gentleman taken in by "Cracker Jack" a noted character about Washington 1892 Morning Oregonian, (Portland, OR) Sunday, March 20, 1892; pg. 16; Issue 8; col C Gossip of Sports The Dudley Medal Contest Today Category: Sports Mitchell says he [a boxer] is a cracker jack and thinks he can beat Bogan. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 5 12:23:22 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:23:22 +0000 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710050425.l954PJg7006207@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's pronounced "pack" in American English. The best choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in "Saab". In truespel it would be ~paak. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 > From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that > the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by > the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. > Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, > back in the day? > > -Wilson > > On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British >> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named >> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). >> >> dInIs >> >> >>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>----------------------- >>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. >>> >>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it. >>> >>>-Wilson >>> >>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Wilson, >>>> >>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >>>> both). >>>> >>>> dInIs >>>> >>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >>>>>gwine _ter_ do it." >>>>> >>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >>>>> >>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.` >>>>> >>>>>-Wilson >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --Ben Zimmer >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>>----- >>>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dennis R. Preston >>>> University Distinguished Professor >>>> Department of English >>>> 15C Morrill Hall >>>> Michigan State University >>>> East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>> 517-353-4736 >>>> preston at msu.edu >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>----- >>> -Sam'l Clemens >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> -- >> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit >> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man >> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred >> North Whitehead >> >> Dennis R. Preston >> University Distinguished Professor >> Department of English >> Morrill Hall 15-C >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA >> Office: (517) 353-4736 >> Fax: (517) 353-3755 >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Fri Oct 5 12:50:15 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:50:15 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710051223.l95AkxFb020804@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: /pak/ is, of course, not a recommendation for a spelling, as the /'s indicate. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail >header ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Tom Zurinskas >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Of course /pak/ to us does not look like it >contains the "ah" sound, but rather like it's >pronounced "pack" in American English. The best >choice to spell the "ah" sound is "aa" as in >"Saab". In truespel it would be ~paak. > >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus >"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:03:15 -0400 >> From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Bruce Dern! I knew that "Park" was really "Pak," but I thought that >> the r-ful spelling was the consequence of Americanization driven by >> the large number of units of the 8th Army stationed in South Korea. >> Wasn't there a president known as Park Chung-Hee or something similar, >> back in the day? >> >> -Wilson >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the >>>mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Wudn jus Harris; plenty of such "r" usage, even in the British >>> influenced spelling of Korea names (e.g., all the poor guys named >>> 'Park' who get called /park/ instead of /pak/). >>> >>> dInIs >>> >>> >>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>----------------------- >>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>>I considered giving consideration to the work of Harris before I wrote >>>>and decided, "Fuck it. I'm not going to make any attempt to account >>>>for Harris's orthography, as opposed to the orthography here. Unless >>>>it can be shown that Harris's orthography set a standard that was >>>>followed by all other writers attempting to render into writing the BE >>>>dialects of their localities, Harris's orthography, which I've found >>>>not worth the effort to decipher, to the extent that I've read >>>>probably less than a paragraph of his work in the original, is >>>>irrelevant. Indeed, even if it could shown that Harris's work did set >>>>the orthographic standard, it can not be shown that every writer used >>>>it. It's not even true that current standard English, as native >>>>speakers write it, has a single, invariant orthography. I know what >>>>I've heard and, if I want to hear it again, right now, all that I have >>>>to do is to call Cudn Lois or fire up the right blues recording. >>>> >>>>That's my story and I'm sticking to it. >>>> >>>>-Wilson >>>> >>>>On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>----------------------- >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: "Dennis R. Preston" >>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Wilson, >>>>> >>>>> It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >>>> one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >>>> know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >>>>> or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >>>>> (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >>>>> (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >>>>> both). >>>>> >>>>> dInIs >>>>> >>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray >>>>>>Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >>>>>>gwine _ter_ do it." >>>>>> >>>>>>I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >>>>>> >>>>>>Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >>>>>>choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >>>>>>dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >>>>>>in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >>>>>>bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >>>>>>an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >>>>>>where the standard, at least, does use one.` >>>>>> >>>>>>-Wilson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>>>>>----------------------- >>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>>>>> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >>>>>>> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>>> bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>>> [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >>>>>>> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Ben Zimmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>>>----- >>>>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>>>> >>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dennis R. Preston >>>>> University Distinguished Professor >>>>> Department of English >>>>> 15C Morrill Hall >>>>> Michigan State University >>>>> East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>>> 517-353-4736 >>>>> preston at msu.edu >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>>----- >>>> -Sam'l Clemens >>>> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> >>> -- >>> It should be the chief aim of a university professor to exhibit >>> himself [sic] in his own true character - that is, as an ignorant man >>> thinking, actively utilizing his small share of knowledge. Alfred >>> North Whitehead >>> >>> Dennis R. Preston >>> University Distinguished Professor >>> Department of English >>> Morrill Hall 15-C >>> Michigan State University >>> East Lansing, MI 48824-1036 USA >>> Office: (517) 353-4736 >>> Fax: (517) 353-3755 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office >Outlook ? together at last. Get it now. >http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 5 14:29:12 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 10:29:12 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <20071005020406.XNZV25784.mta9.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: At 10/4/2007 10:04 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: [I had written:] >>This strikes me as satire also, and probably a pointed and serious >>political comment: Hunk over Dee as evasion; maintain Truth as >>honesty. Whether this letter has sexual overtones, I don't know >>[although Diana is reputed to be a virgin]. But surely the earlier >>letter from "Trusty Roger" does. > >But some people are just named Roger or Diana. In the 18th century pseudonymity was prevalent. Serious letter writers chose constructed Latin names, sometimes related to the subject or point of view (such as Philopatria or Cato), or left their letters unsigned (often the signature would be "A Friend"), or (less frequently) signed their real names (as I assume the "Andrew Merrill" is on one of the hunc-over-de letters). I don't think any *serious* letter-writer would sign "Trusty Roger". Nor is it my impression that letter-writers signed with only a (real) first name. >I don't see any sexual >reference at all in Diana's letter. I admit I don't either, in the letter, but we are removed nearly 300 years from the style of humor. And once again I see I carelessly omitted parts of both letters, "return addresses" below each signature. "Trusty Roger"s letter ends: ---------------- Your Humble Servant, Trusty Roger Direct for me at the Sign of the Torn-Gown and Towsled Headcloaths near the Bowling-Green. ---------------- Strong evidence for sexual suggestion, I think. And an example of a "punch line", reserving the clue that the letter is satiric or comic to the very end? "Diana"s letter ends: ------------ Diana. P.S. Direct for me at the Sign of Descretion [sic] between the Fortification and the Old-Slip. ----------------- Is this "discretion", "desecration", or a clever play on both? Does it have a sexual or defecatory tinge? >As for Roger's article, I think >it's ambiguous; I'm not sure whether he's trying to be suggestive or >not and if he is I have no idea whether he's justified. Maybe it's >all a joke with no substance. OTOH, maybe he's underestimating an >outrageous truth. I just don't think we can tell from so little material. I am convinced that the set of three letters-to-the-editor are trying to be all three: serious about party factionalism (a significant cause of contention at that time, although I know Massachusetts, but very little about New York), satiric, and suggestive. I agree that the material is limited for this instance. But my view of it comes from familiarity with other 18th-century newspaper essays and letters. Joel >There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ >from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) >is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony >used to say. > >Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called >"hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century >writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a >contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: >10/4/2007 8:59 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 5 16:16:40 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:16:40 -0700 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200710032050.l93IE1E2028406@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't answer Joan's precise question about what's theoretically available, but as of today our library is still using the old edition, Series I, II, III only. JL "Joan H. Hall" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 5 16:19:40 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 09:19:40 -0700 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <200710040033.l940Qwe7028614@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I or someone else may have already metioned that Google and Google Books occasionally exhibit the same problem. JL George Thompson wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: George Thompson Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do not include the story I started from. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry A. Popik" Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Never heard about that. > ... > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > was there, > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > ... > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > I > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > already knew > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > ... > Oh, I got stories. > ... > --Barry Popik > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 5 16:27:34 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:27:34 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <549069.99245.qm@web53909.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There seems to be confusion in this thread between Newspaperarchive and America's Historical Newspapers. The latter is the product that would typically be used in university libraries. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 12:16 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com I can't answer Joan's precise question about what's theoretically available, but as of today our library is still using the old edition, Series I, II, III only. JL "Joan H. Hall" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Newspaperarchive.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know that we've all had huge frustrations with Newspaperarchive.com. Someone mentioned to me today that some time ago the company said it would offer an upgraded and much superior product to those willing to pay a higher subscription rate. Does anyone know whether that's true, and if so, whether there is indeed a more reliable product than what's available through university libraries? And if so, at what cost? Thanks from everyone at DARE. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 5 16:20:51 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: <200710050503.l94MmYmJ012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/4/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There is mention of "hunkadee" in the _American Notes and Queries_ > from 1890, at Google Books. A connection to Bengali (or maybe Hindi) > is presented. "Another country heard from!" as my card-playing crony > used to say. Yet another spelling is "hunkedee", as in this story about Quaker children in Philadelphia: 1869 _Riverside Magazine for Young People_ June 242/1 Sometimes they played "Hunkedee," and made such a noise that they had to be rung in before their time by the head teacher. [HNP Doc ID 728441322] > Is there any record of the 19th century game actually being called > "hunk over dee", or is it merely the judgement of some 19th century > writer that the 19th century "hunk-a-dee"/"hunk o' dee" must be a > contraction of the 18th century "hunk over dee"? Here's one example (the game's not explicitly described, but it's in the context of playground activities): 1842 _Spirit of the Times_ 5 Nov. 421/2 The festivities of the occasion were prolonged to a late hour in the evening, and after having bent his intense energies to his share in the performance of "Buck! Buck! how many horns?" and the still more exciting divertisement of "Hunk over Dee!" he returned home, reeking from his exercise, with his head anointed with a moist molasses lump, which, in the innocence of his heart, he had thrust into his cap out of sight of his playmates. [HNP Doc ID 792663732] --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU Fri Oct 5 17:09:44 2007 From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Darla Wells) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:09:44 -0500 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) In-Reply-To: <200710050456.l94MmYlb012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Do they have dipped chicken in that part of Texas? In Wichita Falls, you can get your fried chicken "dipped" that is dipped in jalapeno juice. Wonderful stuff. It may just be a local thing; I haven't seen it anywhere else. Darla Wells With magic, you can turn a frog into a prince. With science, you can turn a frog into a Ph.D and you still have the frog you started with. (Terry Pratchett) ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Barry Popik To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED added the "immigration smuggler" sense to "coyote" last year, > with a 1924 citation. Here are two cites from 1923 and and earlier > one from 1924...It's strange that J. Frank Dobie wrote a book called > "The Voice of the Coyote" and neither OED nor HDAS cited from it? > ... I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border > Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the > Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." I don't understand how I > can be adding 5 new entries a day, but my visits are down about 2,000 > per day from three months ago (when I was out of the country and made > one new entry an entire month). > ... > The Texas Oklahoma game is this weekend, and I see that my most > popular entries are "Tuck Fexas," "Fuck Texas," and "Fuck Y'all, I'm > from Texas." (But not more than $5-a-day popular.) > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/coyotes_wolves_of_the_border_immigration_smugglers/ > ... > Entry from October 04, 2007 > Coyotes ("wolves of the border" immigration smugglers) > The coyote is an animal seen in the Southwest; J. Frank Dobie's The > Voice of the Coyote (1949) tells of the folklore of the coyote. > Smugglers of aliens (Mexicans and other nationalities) into the > United States from Mexico have been called "coyotes" or "wolves of > the border" since at least 1923. The 1918 silent film Wolves of the Border > might have influenced both terms. > > Wikipedia: People smuggling > People smuggling is a term which is used to describe transportation > of people across international borders to a non-official entry point > of a destination country for a variety of reasons. Typically those being > transported may not have adequate formal travel documents or prior > approval to enter the destination country. > (...) > In the Southwest United States, a "coyote" is a person paid to > smuggle illegal immigrants across the border between Mexico and the United > States. Snakeheads are smugglers from China who smuggle people into > the United States and other Western countries. > > Internet Movie Database > Wolves of the Border (1918) > Director: Clifford Smith > Writer: Alan James > Release Date: 12 May 1918 (USA) more > Genre: Western > Plot Synopsis: This plot synopsis is empty. Add a synopsis > Plot Keywords: Cowboy / Kidnapping / Rancher / Rescue > > Internet Movie Database > Wolves of the Border (1923) > Director: Alan James > Release Date: 15 January 1923 (USA) more > Genre: Western / Comedy / Drama > > (Oxford English Dictionary) > coyote, n. > Zool. The name, in Mexico and now in the United States, of the > prairie- or barking-wolf (Canis latrans) of the Pacific slope of > North America. > (...) > U.S. slang. A person hired to assist people in illegally crossing > the border from Mexico into the United States. 1924 Los Angeles > Times 4 June I. 12/7 There has been..the immigration service says, a > band of criminals on this border, known as 'coyotes', who live by > preying upon persons wishing to secure an easy entrance to the > United States. 1943 Econ. Geogr. 19 359/2 The facilitators of > illegal entrance, the smugglers or 'coyotes', the contractors or > 'engachistas' who provided peons with jobs over the border. 1972 Los > Angeles Times 17 Sept. (West Mag. section) 19/3 The coyote took us > by way of Tecate in a station wagon He let us out on the highway > and we waited there..to lose the border patrol. > > (Historical Dictionary of American Slang) > coyote n. > Police. S.W. a labor contractor or other person who brings illegal > immigrants into the U.S. from Mexico. > 1929 Gill Und. Slang: Coyotes?Labor agents. > 1970 S. Steiner La Raza 300: "Coyote!" is what the campesinos say of > a man like Corrilio Macias. 1973 U.S. News & W.R. (July 23) 32: > Smugglers, known as "coyotes" in the Mexican-American community in > Los Angeles. 1974 Martinez & Longeaux y Vasquez La Raza 127: A > worker in Mexico would be picked up by a labor smuggler?called a coyote. > 1977 L.A. Times (Jan. 15) II 5: His name was Roberto and he paid a > "coyote" 300 American dollars to smuggle him across the border. > > 24 May 1923, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Border Bandits Commit Many > Murders: Immigration Inspector Says Recent Killing of Italians One of > Many Similar Crimes," pg. 1, col. 8: > A new race has sprung up on the Mexican side of the border, referred > to often as the "wolves of the border." The greed for gold has got > their blood aflame, and their prey is the simple European alien who > wishes to make his home in America but is unable to comply with the > immigration standards. > > ONE VICTIM ESCAPES. > The recent murder of six Italians, who bartered for their passage > across the Rio Grande only to be betrayed and shot down by their > guides and robbed of their money, is believed to be only one of a > series of wholesale murders the bandit smugglers have committed. > (...) > Captain Hanson, who has just returned from the border, believed that > hundres of unsuspecting Europeans have met similar fates. The > characters of the "coyotes" at the border are the lowest and "the > murder of a fellow man means nothing to them,": he said. > (...) > Says Guides Are Coyotes. > The "coyotes," as Captain Hanson refers to the guides, then return to > take another party and if any questions are asked they simply state > that the party has been safely carried across the river, with no one > to deny their statement. > > 27 June 1923, San Antonio (TX) Express, "Scores of Mexicans Use > Others' Head Tax Receipts to Enter United States," pg. 1, col. 2: > Reports from Laredo Tuesday also told of the arrest of one German > alien who claimed to have been robbed by "coyotes," the Mexican > nickname for those who smuggle aliens across the river, the German > charging that $150 had been taken from him. > (...) (Col. 3 --ed.) > He explained that the alien passes through the hands of about five > "coyotes" before he reaches the American side of the river and > ultimately falls into the hands of government officers who place him > in jail for deportation. > > 11 January 1924, New Castle (PA) News, pg. 2, col. 6: > With legal entrance of aliens practically cut off until June 30 the > border "coyotes" a smugglers term for a criminal class which preys > upon foreigners anxious to enter this country are becoming more > active in piloting an undesirable class over the Mexican border, > according to official reports. > > 19 January 1948, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "More Talk About Coyotes" > by J. Frank Dobie, section I, pg. 13: > In Mexican popular speech, coyote means: a pettifogger, a thief, any > kind of shyster or go-between, a curbstone broker, a fixer who has > "pull" to sell, an oil or mining scout with "practical experience" in > selling leases, also the respectable Minister of Mines, a drink of > mixed beer and brandy. As Lumholtz puts it, "the regard that the > Indians have for their Mexican masters is shown in the name by which > they refer to them?coyotes." > > Use in Southwestern States. > On the border, a smuggler of aliens is called a coyote-enganchista. > In the interior of Texas a certain kind of agent, often a jackleg > lawyer, who hangs around court houses and charges ignorant Mexicans outrageous > fees for services as commonplace as getting a notary public's > certification is called a coyote. He is often a Mexican himself. In > New Mexico, the name, among other meanings, denotes a half-breed?a > mixture of Anglo and Hispano bloods or of Caucasian and Indian?who is > loyal to neither line. Mexicans call bastard children coyotitos. > Without aspersion they call also the last child in a family a > coyotito. In the folklore of ignorance?and not all folklore by any > means springs from ignorance?the coyote is a cross between lobo and > fox. > > Google Books > The Voice of the Coyote > by J. Frank Dobie > Boston, MA: Little, Brown > 1949 > Pg. 258: > On the border, a smuggler-over of aliens is called a coyote enganchista. > > 10 April 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "INS nominee appears capable > for job," section A, pg. 11: > "We need tougher laws on the smugglers, the coyotes, the guys who > smuggle people. They smuggle people and the penalties we assess are > relatively light." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------- End of Original Message ------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 5 17:12:58 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:12:58 -0400 Subject: Newspaperarchive.com In-Reply-To: <155011.30185.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As does Early American Newspapers -- not infrequent both false positives and false negatives. Joel At 10/5/2007 12:19 PM, you wrote: >I or someone else may have already metioned that Google and Google >Books occasionally exhibit the same problem. > > JL > >George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: George Thompson >Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I don't have access to Newspaper Archive, but I find that neither >the Proquest Historical Newspapers or the Readex America's >Historical Newspapers are reliable, in that both too frequently fail >to find item that are in fact in their files. Frequently, I have had >a story that has interested me, and I have searched for some >distinctive word or some name in it, and whatever results I get do >not include the story I started from. > >GAT > >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", >Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Barry A. Popik" >Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:45 pm >Subject: Re: Newspaperarchive.com >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > Never heard about that. > > ... > > I was looking for "club sandwich" recently and couldn't find the 1894 > > citation that I'd previously found. I went back the exact page and it > > was there, > > but in a search of 1880-1900 it WASN'T there. > > ... > > The Oakland Tribune was announced as "new content" three days ago, so > > I > > re-searched for "jazz." I couldn't find the same "jazz" citations we > > already knew > > where there. If I changed the "jazz" search dates (from 1900-1914 to > > 1909-1914), I'd get completely different results over the same time period. > > ... > > Oh, I got stories. > > ... > > --Barry Popik > > > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone >who knows. >Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 6 00:13:51 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:13:51 -0400 Subject: "Hunc over de" clubs, NY 1736? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Yet another spelling is "hunkedee", as in this story about Quaker >children in Philadelphia: .... And there is "hunkety", with several examples at Google Books. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.0/1049 - Release Date: 10/4/2007 8:59 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 6 01:40:23 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 20:40:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Request for German dictionary of computing terms Message-ID: Would anyone know of a German-English or English-German dictionary of computing terminology? A check of Google show several short lists of such terms, but I can't find a full-fledged dictionary. Does one exist? Any guidance would be very gratefully received. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sat Oct 6 12:31:58 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:31:58 -0400 Subject: antedating "fair to middling" (1827) Message-ID: New-York Spectator, (New York, NY) Friday, October 26, 1827; p.1 col E Multiple News Items Category: News [col. F] The exhibition [a fair and cattle-show in Brighton], we believe, was in no respect extraordinary, but in all respects, as our friend from the "Record" used to say of the molasses market at Thanksgivig, "from fair to middling." Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 6 13:36:24 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 09:36:24 -0400 Subject: further antedating "fair to middling" (1824) In-Reply-To: <20071006083158.l1vnwn7fmkgg408k@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Eastern Argus (Portland, Maine), 23 March 1824, p. 3, col. 3. Advertisement J. Haskell Has just received 4 cases prime HATS, new style---also, 4 cases imitation HATS, at $2, "from fair to middling." Joel At 10/6/2007 08:31 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >New-York Spectator, (New York, NY) Friday, October 26, 1827; p.1 col E > Multiple News Items >Category: News [col. F] >The exhibition [a fair and cattle-show in Brighton], we believe, was in no >respect extraordinary, but in all respects, as our friend from the "Record" >used to say of the molasses market at Thanksgivig, "from fair to middling." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 18:52:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 14:52:21 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710041926.l94Faf5p012913@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ah, Wellman! Who Fears the Devil is one of my all-time favorite books. IMHO, though, he should've stuck to his shorts, so to speak; I've read his novels once, and that's about that. m a m On 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Sat Oct 6 18:57:37 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:57:37 -0500 Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can?t distinguish between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes in literature have been given for language-related research. John Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, ?Consequences of Erudite Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using Long Words Needlessly.? A write-up of this year?s winning research on rat foreign language backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that affected the rats? comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats ?failed to finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates.? Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 19:02:01 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:02:01 -0400 Subject: Coyotes (immigration smugglers) (1923) In-Reply-To: <200710050456.l94NN2vP025182@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Heh. I WAS going to mention Oat Willie, Barry, but I shoulda known you'd already been there. Third googit for "Onward thru the fog" is your Big Apple page for it. m a m On 10/5/07, Barry Popik wrote: > > ... > I added some fine website entries, such as Texpatriate/Texpat; Border > Buttermilk/Tequila Sour; Jalapeno Chicken; Jalapeno Pie; and the > Austin stoner motto "Onward thru the fog." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 6 19:47:06 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 15:47:06 -0400 Subject: Language-related 2007 Ig Nobel prizes [Was: Domo arigato...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Literature Ig Nobel was won this year by a book indexer: Glenda Browne of Blaxland, Blue Mountains, Australia, for her study of the word "the" -- and of the many ways it causes problems for anyone who tries to put things into alphabetical order. REFERENCE: "The Definite Article: Acknowledging 'The' in Index Entries," Glenda Browne, The Indexer, vol. 22, no. 3 April 2001, pp. 119-22. Joel At 10/6/2007 02:57 PM, Dennis Baron wrote: >There's a new post on >the Web of Language: > >Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand >Japanese backwards. Can you? > >The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three >researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can't distinguish >between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. > >The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable >Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the >actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first >time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes >in literature have been given for language-related research. John >Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 >for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences >between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of >Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, "Consequences of Erudite >Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using >Long Words Needlessly." > >A write-up of this year's winning research on rat foreign language >backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of >Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. >Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de >Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and >receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they >had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). >Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that >affected the rats' comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had >no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats "failed to >finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates." > >Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at > > the Web of Language > >www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > >Dennis Baron >Professor of English and Linguistics >Department of English >University of Illinois >608 S. Wright St. >Urbana, IL 61801 > >office: 217-244-0568 >fax: 217-333-4321 > >www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron > >read the Web of Language: >www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 6 20:42:18 2007 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 13:42:18 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <200709281550.l8SCt8DQ020387@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. Unfortunately, I was too late for warmthiness: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004959.html Mark ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 6 20:47:03 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:47:03 -0400 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname Message-ID: Will "teasipper" be in the next volume of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Dictionary of American Regional English, or an updated OED? What does HDAS have? ... There seems to be a lack of Texas A&M Aggie material here in Austin. I'd like to take a trip to College Station soon, but it sure would be nice to get some recognition or compensation for the stuff that I do. ... Any scholarly help or clues here? --Barry Popik ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tea_sipper_or_teasipper_tea_sip_or_teasip_university_of_texas_at_austin_stu/ ... Entry from October 06, 2007 Tea-sipper or Teasipper; Tea-sip or Teasip (University of Texas at Austin student nickname) Since at least the 1930s, the Texas A&M Aggies have called students of the University of Texas at Austin "tea-sippers" ( or "teasippers"), later "tea-sips" (or "teasips"). No one knows why. Some have speculated that "tea-sipper" is an Aggie tea-drinking interpretation of the famous "Hook 'em, Horns" hand gesture, but that hand gesture was invented by cheerleader Harley Clark in 1955?well after "tea-sipper" is first cited. Wikipedia: Glossary of Texas Aggie Terms Tea-sip A student of Texas A&M's archrival, the University of Texas at Austin. Urban Dictionary tea sipper word used by Texas A&M aggies to describe a Texas Longhorn. meant to be demeaning Why does that there tea sipper make more money than me? by Lindlof May 28, 2004 Urban Dictionary 1. tea-sip One who attends or attended the University of Texas (t.u.) in Austin, Texas. The term tea-sip (also spelled teasip, t-sip, or t sip) was started by students of Texas A&M University (aka. Aggies) in the early 1900's to belittle the well-to-do students of t.u. The University of Texas was traditionally the "rich" school which pumped out doctors, lawyers and the like. A&M was the blue collar school which traditionally taught Agriculture and Mechanics (engineering). The Aggies play the teasips on Thanksgiving day. I'm sick of all those hippy teasips in Austin. by Henry Hill Feb 8, 2005 2. tea-sip one who attends U.T. My friend Mitch is a tea-sip. by Aggie class '08 Nov 3, 2004 (Oxford English Dictionary) tea, n. (...) Objective and obj. gen., as...tea--sipper,... 1756 HANWAY Ess. Tea viii. 245 Were they the sons of *tea-sippers, who won the fields of Cressy and Agincourt? 25 November 1937, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 6, col. 1: THE FOLLOWING excerpts from a letter sent by Junie Schuler, Aggies freshman, gives an idea about the spirit at Aggieland: "The Aggies have been preparing for this day since the football season started, and we don't mean to let the tea sippers from Texas U. spoil our victory." 12 February 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Strolling the Campus" with Sam Weiner, pg. 13, col. 1: AGGIE LAMBAST TEXAS " TEA-SIPPERS." With the ROTC struggle pouring oil on the flames, the perennial rivalry between the Longhorns and Aggies flared into a white hot fire during the week, building up the basketball game tonight between the teams in a rough climax. The heated rivalry flared anew recently during an editorial battle between the Daily Texan campus newspaper ,and the Battalion, the Aggies' sheet. As usual, the students at Texas have been dubbed "tea-sippers" by the droll Aggies, and to carry outthe theme the Battalion editors have arranged for tea to be served to Texas students attending the game at College Station tonight. "It really hurts us," the Aggies said, " to think that the tea-sippers would have to go without their beverage while they're over here in the wilderness, so we got it arranged forthem to have their tea served during the game. The "tea-sippers" and the "tin-soldiers"?as the Texas students call the Aggies?struck up a bargain for tonight. If Texas wins, the Daily Texan writers, Pat Daniels, editor, and Clarence LaReche, sports editor, will write stories of the game for both the Daily Texan and the Battalion. If the Aggies win, however, the Battalion editors will condescend to cover the game for the "tea-sippers," giving it that peculiar Aggie twist which proves so annoying to the Texas boys, who dislike being called "tea-sippers." 2 November 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 8, col. 1: "If we had a one-horse team like Texas U., Conatser would shine more than soph Jack Crain ever could. We are looking forward to seeing the tea sippers tangle over here on Thanksgiving." 5 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News, "Inside Stuff" by Tommy Griffin, pg. 16, col. 1: The Ags, of course, call the Longhorns a bunch of tea-sippers. 6 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News pg. 16, "Inside Stuff" (the mail sack) by Tommy Griffin, col. 1: "College Station." "Mr. Thomas 'Tea-sipper' Griffin:" (...) "In the first place, whether we win or lose every game we play, we still think that we have the best team in the nation and will not go (Col. 2?ed.) running to hide in a corner like a bunch of yellow-bellied tea-sippers." (...) "W. G. (Billy) Williamson, Jr." "P. S. I'd rather be an Aggie Freshman the rest of my life than a Tea-sipping Senior." 1 January 1943, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 3, pg. 11: The differences between "share-croppers" and "tea-sippers" are something that loyal exes of both schools always remember. Time magazine Trouble in Texas Monday, May. 03, 1943 (...) Many Texans find the Austin students effete: to the Aggies (Texas A. & M. College), for example, many strapping Austin characters are "tea-sippers." 1 December 1946, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Forty Acres' Forecast" by Sara Jane Potts, section 5, pg. 7: AUSTIN.?If Yankees coming to Texas have been wondering where all those cowboys were, they would have found them marching in Memorial Stadium, where the Texas Teasippers knocked out the Texas Aggies by a comfortable count of 24 to 7 in the traditional Turkey Day game. 23 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 2: He did get in on a chorus of "Let's get Texas; let's get those teasippers." 30 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 8: Bill Sullivan, the kicker-off, helped start the rally with a thundering: "We got those teasippers." 28 January 1951, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Steers, Aggies Set Grid Date," part 2, pg. 1: AUSTIN, Texas, Jan. 27 (AP).?The Aggies and the Teasippers finally got together on something Saturday, but it took considerable bickering to do it. 5 March 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 6: Two ex-Aggies wired Sen. William T. Moore, Bryan, that he was a tea sipper, the derogatory term Aggies fling at University of Texas students. 7 August 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News part 1, pg. 14: "Wouldn't this be a good spot for a UT teasipper to drop a grenade!" 30 November 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Ags Give Credit to Bryant," part 1, pg. 26: The seniors on the Aggie ball club were rounded up into a corner of the room for pictures. Suddenly, they began rattling the rafters with the chant, "Poo-o-o-r teasips." 13 July 1964, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Please Pass The Tea" by Roy Edwards, section 2, pg. 2: Although he played three years of varsity football at A&M, including the 1941 championship team that lost to Texas, and coached at Aggieland eight years under three head coaches, Zapalac has learned to talk teasipper already. 15 November 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Why Are Longhorns Styled "Tea-Sippers'?" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: SHE WROTE: "I'm not chauvanistic about University of Texas football, although I took my bachelor's degree at Texas. However, since the Longhorns started losing football games, I've noticed that more and more people refer to University of Texas students as 'tea-sippers'. This term is particularly popular with the Texas Aggies. I'm a little annoyed over this and I wonder who was the mischievous person who put the nickname of tea-sippers on Texas students? Please don't use my name since I have a brother-in-law who is a TCU ex and who has a rather heavy-handed sense of humor." WELL, AT THE lady's command, I did some rather unsuccessful research on the "tea-sippers" nickname for University of Texas scholars. I'd heard a legend that it all began when the great coach, Dana Xenophon Bible, started his gridiron renaissance at Texas in the late 1930's and, according to the yarn, used to serve hot tea and cookies at athletic gatherings. Mr. Bible, in his deep echoing bass voice, denied this emphatically. "I never held any teas," he said. Another patriarch of University of Texas sports, Theo Blemont, Longhorn athletic director from 1913 to 1929, also could give me no clue. MY RESEARCH DID show that late in the 19th century, in the Texas Panhandle "teasipper" was a popular term of good-natured scorn for the dandified Britishers who owned several of the larger ranches, such as Lord Tweedmouth and the Earl of Aberdeen of the Rocking Chaire Ranche near Wellington, Texas. This was, of course, long before any chuck wagon cook even dreamed of serving ice tea. And the rough Panhandle cowboys, much given to coffee drinking, were mystified by the British ranchers' ritualistic tea sipping. One British proprietor of a Panhandle ranch objected, at first, to the democratic custom of the owners eating as the same table with the "cow servants", as he called the hands. Cape Willingham, a famous cowboy who was later the first sheriff of Tascoa, commented on this: "Can you imagine that tea-sipper thinks I ain't good enough to eat with him! And me a boy that can ride anything that grows hair!" 26 December 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 24: MOST AGGIES considered them a form of envy, a point of pride. They fought back with barbed wit aimed at "Sips" (short of T-Sip, or Tea-sipper, any person unfortunate enough to enroll at the University of Texas) and Baptists, or Deacons, from Baylor University. 27 April 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section B, pg. 2: "They're both tea-sips. It's going to be an orange wedding." 27 May 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: "He," remarked the cadet of the Person up there, "must have been a tea-sip." 27 October 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section D, pg. 2: As a "Tea-Sip," wife of one, mother of two and mother-in-law of one and, as a subscriber to both the Daily Texan and the Austin American, I feel that I am far better qualified to evaluate the university than Mr. Fessi after one trip to one campus dormitory. 21 February 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Bully Gilstrap Theory on 'Tea-Sipper' Label" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 21: WHY ARE University of Texas at Austin students and even former UT students, scoffingly called "tea-sippers". Questions about this tea-sipper label have come to my desk in a sudden covey of letters, an occurrence I blame on the fact that the dog star is not presently in ascendency. On his rancho near Rosebud, Texas, a real authority on the University of Texas' past, the Hon. Bully Gilstrip, proper his bare feet up on a coffee table (Bully goes bare-footed a lot except during sticker season) and gave me this answer: "The tea-sipper insult is involved with out 'hook 'em horns!' signal, with which followers of the university's athletic teams have been gesturing their allegiance for several decades." BULLY GILSTRAP raised a massive paw in the "hook 'em horns" finger positions, with the middle fingers folded and the fore finger and little finger erect. Mr. Gilstrap declared that this gesture by Texas U. aficionados and aficionadas called up to Texas Aggie minds the act of daintily holding a tea cup with the little finger at high port. "And that's why Aggies, generations ago, started calling us Texas U. folks tea-sippers," said Bully, who spent a quarter of a century as a star athlete and then a coach who became a kind of "institution" at the University of Texas. "BULLY'S WRONG" chorused Mike Quinn, Paul Crume and WIlbur Evans, all stout Orangemen although not necessarily to obnoxious degrees. "That 'hook 'em horns' salute was first innovated by a University of Texas cheer-leader named Harley Clark, now an Austin lawyer, late in the 1950's," said Mr. Quinn. "Bully says they were making the hook 'em salute when he played on an unbeaten Texas football team 51 years ago," I said in rebuttal. "And one story is that the tea-sipper tag was hung on the university in the late 1930's or early 1940's when Dana X. Bible was head football coach and he was said to serve tea and cookies to his athletes as a light meal before games," said Mr. Crume. DANA XENOPHON Bible, the 82-year-old head coach emeritus of the University of Texas who was also a successful head football coach at LSU, Texas A&M, and the University of Nebraska, was asked about this. "Ridiculous," he said. "I never held any teas for football players." Mr. Bible was coach at Texas A&M from 1917 until he went to Nebraska in 1928. And he declared: "As I recall University of Texas people were being called tea-sippers at the time I had my great unbeaten, untied, and unscored on football team at A&M in 1917." (The same team, which didn't operate in 1918 because the coach and most of the players had gone to war, lost its only game 3-7 in the 1920 season, and these were the only points scored on the team during 3 seasons.) WILBUR EVANS, a University of Texas product who is doing a book on A&M, said that he seemed to recall a reference to "tea-sippers" in an ancient version of the Texas Aggie War Song. The lusty lyrics for The War Song were written in the trenches of France in 1918 by an Aggie, James V. (Pinky) Wilson, and begin "Hulla-balloo, hulla-ballo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." and have that refrain "Goodye to Texas Universi-tee, etc." Mr. Evans thinks the War Song may have once had lyrics which went something like this: "T is for Texas U.? Hell no! T is for tea-sippers: Hulla-ballo, hulla-baloo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." MR. CRUME said that the 2 uplifted fingers resemble snails, at least with his hand, and signify the slowness of Longhorn running backs. 4 September 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: Many University of Texas graduates have plates saying "HOOK EM" or some other variant. The ones that can't get "Hook 'Em" get a variant of "TEA SIP," which describes us old Texas boys who never take strong drink. Google Books The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas Music and Lyrics by Carol Hall Book by Larry l. King and Peter Masterson Based on a story by Larry L. King New York, NY: Samuel French, Inc. 1983 Pg. 56: AGGIE I. YeeeeHaw! Didn't them Teasippers step in a deep pile of Aggie Shit! College Football Forum October 05, 2006 9:17 AM (...) "tea sip" - Student of University of Texas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Sun Oct 7 00:26:57 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:26:57 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! Message-ID: On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: I'M A-WISHIN' FOR A BETTER COMMISSION There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. (We could do pronunciation too, of course.) Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 00:27:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:27:53 -0400 Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand Japanese backwards. Can you? In-Reply-To: <200710061859.l96AoTmv012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, the rats may very well have been bilingual in Catalan and Castillian. Not that this, even if true, vitiates your point. :-) -Wilson On 10/6/07, Dennis Baron wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Baron > Subject: Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand > Japanese backwards. Can you? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There's a new post on > the Web of Language: > > Domo arigato, Dr. Roboto: Researchers prove rats can't understand =20 > Japanese backwards. Can you? > > The 2007 Ig Nobel prize in linguistics has been awarded to three =20 > researchers who successfully demonstrated that rats can=92t distinguish =20= > > between Japanese and Dutch sentences played backwards. > > The Ig Nobel prizes, co-sponsored by the Annals of Improbable =20 > Research, are awarded each year for real research shortly before the =20 > actual Nobel Prize winners are announced. While this is the first =20 > time that a prize has been awarded in linguistics, two earlier prizes =20= > > in literature have been given for language-related research. John =20 > Richards, founder of the Apostrophe Protection Society, won in 2001 =20 > for his efforts to protect, promote, and defend the differences =20 > between the plural and the possessive. And Daniel Oppenheimer, of =20 > Princeton, won in 2006 for his report, =93Consequences of Erudite =20 > Vernacular Utilized Irrespective of Necessity: Problems with Using =20 > Long Words Needlessly.=94 > > A write-up of this year=92s winning research on rat foreign language =20 > backwards sentence recognition appeared in 2005 in the Journal of =20 > Experimental Psychology. Drs. J. M. Toro, J. B. Trobalon, and N. =20 > Sebastian-Galles, cognitive neuroscientists at the Parc Cientific de =20 > Barcelona, trained a group of 64 Long-Evans rats to press a lever and =20= > > receive food when they heard Dutch and Japanese sentences that they =20 > had never heard before (remember, these were Spanish-speaking rats). =20= > > Researchers then played the sentences backwards to see how that =20 > affected the rats=92 comprehension. They concluded that sixty rats had =20= > > no idea what was going on (P < .05), while four rats =93failed to =20 > finish the experiment because of low lever-pressing rates.=94 > > Read the rest of this post about cutting-edge linguistic research at > > the Web of Language > > www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > Dennis Baron > Professor of English and Linguistics > Department of English > University of Illinois > 608 S. Wright St. > Urbana, IL 61801 > > office: 217-244-0568 > fax: 217-333-4321 > > www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron > > read the Web of Language: > www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 02:04:52 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 22:04:52 -0400 Subject: paralepsis Message-ID: In another forum, I just used the word "paralepsize" as a nonce coinage in the sense 'to suggest something by saying you won't mention it', from "paralepsis". Then I looked for it in OED Online and got There are no results. The nearest alphabetical match-point is displayed in the side-frame. and that was "paralerema, n". "What?", I thought, "don't they have 'paralepsis'?!" And the answer is, not exactly: it is listed only as an irregular form of "paralipsis", in centuries "15 19-". I was surprised, having known the word for years, but only in the "e" spelling. Googits are about 2-1 for the "i" spelling: "about 21,300 for paralipsis" "about 10,300 for paralepsis" m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 03:44:04 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 23:44:04 -0400 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname Message-ID: My Texas Longhorns lost to the Oklahoma Sooners today. Bunch of tea-sippers. ... I looked again, and it appears that the nickname comes from the November 1936 and should appear when I check the Houston Post. ... ... ... 3 November 1936, Galveston Daily News, "Here's the Dope" by Bill Van Fleet, pg. 6, col. 1: WE'VE never been lynched, nor have we seen any other sports writer lynched, but the stage was pretty well set for one or two sports writers we could name to be the main-most characters at a first-class neck-stretchin' over the weekend on the University of Texas campus. We wandered up there Saturday in the course of a trip to cover the S. M. U.-Texas game, and found the students to be in an uproar, principally about what Lloyd Gregory of the Houston Post had said about the Longhorns and their type of play against Rice the week before. Gregory, having seen the Longhorns play a dirty brand of football against Rice, had charged them with that kind of play in black and white, and it wasn't sitting so well with the Texas campus. It so happened that we had written along the very same lines as Gregory, and any charges that the two of us might have "framed up" the charges can bi dissipated by proof of the fact the two of us didn't see each other at the game or afterward, and that neither knew the other was there. FRIDAY NIGHT at the pep rally preceding the S. M. U. game the students were given a new song, purportedly written by Gregory, to sing. They sang it then and at the game Saturday they kept singing it until S. M. U. became too stout for the Steers. Then there wasn't much singing at all. The song, funny enough if you forget that it is doing an injustice to a guy who had the nerve to write what he saw, follows: A gridirons' just for tea and toast Take if from the Houston Post If a man would run and twist Only slap him on the wrist. (...) ... ... ... 26 November 1936, San Antonio Light, pg. 5B, col. 1: Tea, Toast, Honey All The Boys Get AUSTIN, Nov. 26. -- (INS) -- The life of a football player is a hard one, the University of Texas Longhorns agreed today as they sat down to their Thanksgiving dinner. Thinking of turkey and all the trimmings, they found only tea, toast and honey on their bare Thanksgiving training table. Coach Jack Chevigney (Chevigny is correct -- ed.) ordered the rations cut so none of his team would be too full for the Aggies. ... [Texas beat Texas A&M 7-0 that game -- ed.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 07:15:23 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 03:15:23 -0400 Subject: Corn Dog and Nachos were invented at Texas State Fair (Houston Chronicle; Independent of London) Message-ID: What should I do? Write to this guy? It won't make a difference. ... I should have killed myself years ago. Maybe some Texas Fried Cookie Dough will do it. ... ... ... http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5194018.html Oct. 6, 2007, 8:28PM SUNDAY CONVERSATION State fair: It's a great ride Errol McKoy, who grew up in the North Texas town of Quanah, attended his first State Fair of Texas as a teenager. He became its president in 1988 after a career as a theme park executive. The 65-year-old McKoy is presiding over his 20th fair, a tenure so long he said some people call him the "cars, cows, corndogs and culture man." The fair runs through Oct. 21 at Dallas' Fair Park. McKoy stepped off the midway for a few minutes to answer questions from the Houston Chronicle's Dallas Bureau Chief Thomas Korosec. (...) Q: What's with all the fried food? All seven of your Big Tex Choice Awards winners and honorable mentions this year came straight from the fryer. The winner, we see, was Texas Fried Cookie Dough, followed by Deep Fried Latte. A: If you look back over time, the corn dog was invented here. Nachos were invented here. We have always had new foods, and over the last 10 years we have encouraged the idea of generating new fried food items. Q: So you've taken the corn dog and worked from there? A: We want to go beyond the corn dog and nachos. We've had a number of items invented now, and we're going to sit back and see which ones have staying power. Q: Which ones would you bet on? A: We think fried Coke, as crazy as it seems, will have a lot of staying power just because of the name. The guy who invented that one, Abel Gonzalez, has won our contest three years in a row. First it was the fried peanut butter and jelly and banana sandwich, followed by fried Coke and fried cookie dough this year. I like the fried cookie dough. (...) thomas.korosec at chron.com ... ... ... http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article3021364.ece Hershey chief quits as Mars edges ahead By Leonard Doyle in Washington Published: 03 October 2007 The increasingly fierce competition in the US confectionery business yesterday claimed its most high-profile victim yet, as Richard Lenny, chief executive of the Hershey Company, quit in frustration at the failure of America's largest chocolate-maker to keep up with Mars. Mr Lenny, 55, who joined Hershey's in 2001 from Kraft Foods, told the board over the weekend of his plan to depart, Hershey's spokesman Kirk Saville said yesterday. "There's been some disappointing performance and there's no question the man's been under some intense pressure," said Marvin Roffman, an analyst at Roffman Miller Associates in Philadelphia, which owns Hershey's shares. Hershey's is fighting in a rapidly developing market, where the latest fad is fried Coke. At the State Fair of Texas, where the corn-dog was invented in 1941, customers have been lining up for deep-fried Coca-Cola-flavoured batter, topped off with whipped cream, cinnamon sugar and a cherry. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 11:45:15 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 07:45:15 -0400 Subject: Another early "Black Friday" (day after Thanksgiving) Message-ID: Several years ago Barry found a piece -- one filed from Philadelphia and published in *The New York Times* on 29 November 1975 -- that has been cited as the earliest appearance in print (so far) of "Black Friday" used in reference to the day after Thanksgiving [1]. On that same Saturday, *The Titusville [Pennsylvania] Herald* printed an Associated Press report also filed from Philadelphia [2]. Like the piece from *The Times*, it refers to the preceding day as "Black Friday." (I might add that although this second piece does dwell on shoppers' post-Thanksgiving buying sprees, neither it nor the piece from *The Times* refers to or relies on a usage of "Black Friday" holding that "black" refers to the day that merchants' ledger books go from red to black.) -- Bonnie ---------- [1] "Philadelphia police and bus drivers call it 'Black Friday' -- that day each year between Thanksgiving Day and the Army-Navy game. It is the busiest shopping and traffic day of the year in the Bicentennial City as the Christmas list is checked off and the Eastern college football season nears conclusion." [Gordon S. White Jr., "Army vs. Navy: A Dimming Splendor," Pg. 21.] ---------- [2] FOLKS ON BUYING SPREE DESPITE DOWN ECONOMY [Pg. 1] Store aisles were jammed. Escalators were nonstop people. It was the first day of the Christmas shopping season and despite the economy, folks here went on a buying spree. Tens of thousands in search of Christmas gifts left harried sales clerks in their wake on the day after Thanksgiving, the starting bell for the holiday shopping crush. "I don't intend to gift wrap IOU's," said Fred Leamnan of Philadelphia, who just this week got back his job as a plumber's helper. "Sure, money's tight, but it's Christmastime -- you just have to give gifts." It didn't matter which of the city's department stores you went in. Bus after bus unloaded shoppers who fought their way through sidewalk crowds moving at a snail's pace. "Yes, indeed, times are rough for us. That's why we're shopping down here," Elaine Hunt said as she and her three children browsed through the John Wannamaker's basement budget store. "My husband's looking for construction work but I'm working part-time, so there'll be some gifts under the tree somehow," she said. "Everyone's worried about the economy, but you can't get too uptight about money at Christmas," said Marvin Weidner, a shopper at Gimbels. "I want to enjoy myself like when I was a kid." >From frivolous to practical, virtually every department was attracting its share of shoppers. The jewelry, books and toy counters were surrounded by shoppers, and as many as 12 persons were lined up at clothing counters, waiting to make their purchases. "That's why the bus drivers and cab drivers call today 'Black Friday,'" a sales manager at Gimbels said as she watched a traffic cop trying to control a crowd of jaywalkers. "They think in terms of headaches it gives them." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 7 12:10:15 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 08:10:15 -0400 Subject: antedating "standard of living" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710061336.l96DaWa1001583@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: ads-l archive has 1902 The Standard Of Living In The United States. (News) The Times Monday, Sep 22, 1890; pg. 6; Issue 33123; col D At the last meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science...Mr. Dodge...read a paper on the standard of living in the United States, in the course of which he said it was the highest known, and it was progressive. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 7 13:42:09 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:42:09 -0400 Subject: antedating "word game" (1885) Message-ID: ads-l archive has 1899 1885 The Congregationalist, (Boston, MA) Thursday, April 23, 1885; pg. 6; Issue 17; col E [19th C US N] Our Young People A Little Blue Pitcher Mary E. Wilkins. Category: Arts & Entertainment [col. F] This and That A very pretty word-game for young people is one known as "Crambo." Somebody asks a question and, at the same time, gives a word which must be wrought into the answer in the form of a rhyme. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 14:22:43 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 10:22:43 -0400 Subject: "Until hell freezes over" (1832 & 1859) Message-ID: Barry, in looking for "carpetbaggers," had previously traced "'til (or till) hell freezes over" to 1868, http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9908C&L=ADS-L&P=2187 Though a seemingly isolated instance pops up in early 1832, I've found that the expression begins to appear with some frequency in American publications around 1860. -- Bonnie ------------------------ [The editors of a theological magazine report:] This week we received another paper returned from the same [post] office [...] on the margin of which is written, "Stop this paper or send it to Syracuse, where [the subscriber now] lives. Baldwinsville, Onon. Co. N.Y. I shall send it back until hell freezes over, but what I will stop it. I don't want to pay postage on the d----- thing." [From "Orthodox Piety and Manners," *The Evangelical Magazine and Gospel Advocate*, 4 February 1832; 3, 5, Pg. 38; APS Online.] ------------- Another was caught on a stolen horse, and refusing to testify as desired -- his mother urging him to reveal nothing, and saying they would not hang him till hell froze over -- was found dead. [From "Democracy and Crime in Pike County," *The Chicago Press and Tribune*, 7 March 1859, Pg. 2; ProQuest Historical.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Sun Oct 7 15:57:26 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:57:26 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <200710070026.l96AoTv7012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wonderful! It's alive and well here in Southeastern Ohio too. At 08:26 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a >Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced >by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." > >The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the >political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: > >I'M A-WISHIN' >FOR A BETTER >COMMISSION > >There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. > >(We could do pronunciation too, of course.) > >Bethany > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 16:34:43 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 09:34:43 -0700 Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname In-Reply-To: <200710062047.l96Ao3TB012682@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS has nothing on "Teasipper." Too local to have made much of a, er, splash? JL Barry Popik wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barry Popik Subject: Mystery of the Texas "Teasippers" nickname ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will "teasipper" be in the next volume of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Dictionary of American Regional English, or an updated OED? What does HDAS have? ... There seems to be a lack of Texas A&M Aggie material here in Austin. I'd like to take a trip to College Station soon, but it sure would be nice to get some recognition or compensation for the stuff that I do. ... Any scholarly help or clues here? --Barry Popik ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tea_sipper_or_teasipper_tea_sip_or_teasip_university_of_texas_at_austin_stu/ ... Entry from October 06, 2007 Tea-sipper or Teasipper; Tea-sip or Teasip (University of Texas at Austin student nickname) Since at least the 1930s, the Texas A&M Aggies have called students of the University of Texas at Austin "tea-sippers" ( or "teasippers"), later "tea-sips" (or "teasips"). No one knows why. Some have speculated that "tea-sipper" is an Aggie tea-drinking interpretation of the famous "Hook 'em, Horns" hand gesture, but that hand gesture was invented by cheerleader Harley Clark in 1955?well after "tea-sipper" is first cited. Wikipedia: Glossary of Texas Aggie Terms Tea-sip A student of Texas A&M's archrival, the University of Texas at Austin. Urban Dictionary tea sipper word used by Texas A&M aggies to describe a Texas Longhorn. meant to be demeaning Why does that there tea sipper make more money than me? by Lindlof May 28, 2004 Urban Dictionary 1. tea-sip One who attends or attended the University of Texas (t.u.) in Austin, Texas. The term tea-sip (also spelled teasip, t-sip, or t sip) was started by students of Texas A&M University (aka. Aggies) in the early 1900's to belittle the well-to-do students of t.u. The University of Texas was traditionally the "rich" school which pumped out doctors, lawyers and the like. A&M was the blue collar school which traditionally taught Agriculture and Mechanics (engineering). The Aggies play the teasips on Thanksgiving day. I'm sick of all those hippy teasips in Austin. by Henry Hill Feb 8, 2005 2. tea-sip one who attends U.T. My friend Mitch is a tea-sip. by Aggie class '08 Nov 3, 2004 (Oxford English Dictionary) tea, n. (...) Objective and obj. gen., as...tea--sipper,... 1756 HANWAY Ess. Tea viii. 245 Were they the sons of *tea-sippers, who won the fields of Cressy and Agincourt? 25 November 1937, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 6, col. 1: THE FOLLOWING excerpts from a letter sent by Junie Schuler, Aggies freshman, gives an idea about the spirit at Aggieland: "The Aggies have been preparing for this day since the football season started, and we don't mean to let the tea sippers from Texas U. spoil our victory." 12 February 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, "Strolling the Campus" with Sam Weiner, pg. 13, col. 1: AGGIE LAMBAST TEXAS " TEA-SIPPERS." With the ROTC struggle pouring oil on the flames, the perennial rivalry between the Longhorns and Aggies flared into a white hot fire during the week, building up the basketball game tonight between the teams in a rough climax. The heated rivalry flared anew recently during an editorial battle between the Daily Texan campus newspaper ,and the Battalion, the Aggies' sheet. As usual, the students at Texas have been dubbed "tea-sippers" by the droll Aggies, and to carry outthe theme the Battalion editors have arranged for tea to be served to Texas students attending the game at College Station tonight. "It really hurts us," the Aggies said, " to think that the tea-sippers would have to go without their beverage while they're over here in the wilderness, so we got it arranged forthem to have their tea served during the game. The "tea-sippers" and the "tin-soldiers"?as the Texas students call the Aggies?struck up a bargain for tonight. If Texas wins, the Daily Texan writers, Pat Daniels, editor, and Clarence LaReche, sports editor, will write stories of the game for both the Daily Texan and the Battalion. If the Aggies win, however, the Battalion editors will condescend to cover the game for the "tea-sippers," giving it that peculiar Aggie twist which proves so annoying to the Texas boys, who dislike being called "tea-sippers." 2 November 1939, Galveston (TX) Daily News, pg. 8, col. 1: "If we had a one-horse team like Texas U., Conatser would shine more than soph Jack Crain ever could. We are looking forward to seeing the tea sippers tangle over here on Thanksgiving." 5 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News, "Inside Stuff" by Tommy Griffin, pg. 16, col. 1: The Ags, of course, call the Longhorns a bunch of tea-sippers. 6 December 1940, Port Arthur (TX) News pg. 16, "Inside Stuff" (the mail sack) by Tommy Griffin, col. 1: "College Station." "Mr. Thomas 'Tea-sipper' Griffin:" (...) "In the first place, whether we win or lose every game we play, we still think that we have the best team in the nation and will not go (Col. 2?ed.) running to hide in a corner like a bunch of yellow-bellied tea-sippers." (...) "W. G. (Billy) Williamson, Jr." "P. S. I'd rather be an Aggie Freshman the rest of my life than a Tea-sipping Senior." 1 January 1943, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 3, pg. 11: The differences between "share-croppers" and "tea-sippers" are something that loyal exes of both schools always remember. Time magazine Trouble in Texas Monday, May. 03, 1943 (...) Many Texans find the Austin students effete: to the Aggies (Texas A. & M. College), for example, many strapping Austin characters are "tea-sippers." 1 December 1946, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Forty Acres' Forecast" by Sara Jane Potts, section 5, pg. 7: AUSTIN.?If Yankees coming to Texas have been wondering where all those cowboys were, they would have found them marching in Memorial Stadium, where the Texas Teasippers knocked out the Texas Aggies by a comfortable count of 24 to 7 in the traditional Turkey Day game. 23 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 2: He did get in on a chorus of "Let's get Texas; let's get those teasippers." 30 October 1949, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 8: Bill Sullivan, the kicker-off, helped start the rally with a thundering: "We got those teasippers." 28 January 1951, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Steers, Aggies Set Grid Date," part 2, pg. 1: AUSTIN, Texas, Jan. 27 (AP).?The Aggies and the Teasippers finally got together on something Saturday, but it took considerable bickering to do it. 5 March 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 6: Two ex-Aggies wired Sen. William T. Moore, Bryan, that he was a tea sipper, the derogatory term Aggies fling at University of Texas students. 7 August 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News part 1, pg. 14: "Wouldn't this be a good spot for a UT teasipper to drop a grenade!" 30 November 1956, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Ags Give Credit to Bryant," part 1, pg. 26: The seniors on the Aggie ball club were rounded up into a corner of the room for pictures. Suddenly, they began rattling the rafters with the chant, "Poo-o-o-r teasips." 13 July 1964, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Please Pass The Tea" by Roy Edwards, section 2, pg. 2: Although he played three years of varsity football at A&M, including the 1941 championship team that lost to Texas, and coached at Aggieland eight years under three head coaches, Zapalac has learned to talk teasipper already. 15 November 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Why Are Longhorns Styled "Tea-Sippers'?" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: SHE WROTE: "I'm not chauvanistic about University of Texas football, although I took my bachelor's degree at Texas. However, since the Longhorns started losing football games, I've noticed that more and more people refer to University of Texas students as 'tea-sippers'. This term is particularly popular with the Texas Aggies. I'm a little annoyed over this and I wonder who was the mischievous person who put the nickname of tea-sippers on Texas students? Please don't use my name since I have a brother-in-law who is a TCU ex and who has a rather heavy-handed sense of humor." WELL, AT THE lady's command, I did some rather unsuccessful research on the "tea-sippers" nickname for University of Texas scholars. I'd heard a legend that it all began when the great coach, Dana Xenophon Bible, started his gridiron renaissance at Texas in the late 1930's and, according to the yarn, used to serve hot tea and cookies at athletic gatherings. Mr. Bible, in his deep echoing bass voice, denied this emphatically. "I never held any teas," he said. Another patriarch of University of Texas sports, Theo Blemont, Longhorn athletic director from 1913 to 1929, also could give me no clue. MY RESEARCH DID show that late in the 19th century, in the Texas Panhandle "teasipper" was a popular term of good-natured scorn for the dandified Britishers who owned several of the larger ranches, such as Lord Tweedmouth and the Earl of Aberdeen of the Rocking Chaire Ranche near Wellington, Texas. This was, of course, long before any chuck wagon cook even dreamed of serving ice tea. And the rough Panhandle cowboys, much given to coffee drinking, were mystified by the British ranchers' ritualistic tea sipping. One British proprietor of a Panhandle ranch objected, at first, to the democratic custom of the owners eating as the same table with the "cow servants", as he called the hands. Cape Willingham, a famous cowboy who was later the first sheriff of Tascoa, commented on this: "Can you imagine that tea-sipper thinks I ain't good enough to eat with him! And me a boy that can ride anything that grows hair!" 26 December 1965, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 24: MOST AGGIES considered them a form of envy, a point of pride. They fought back with barbed wit aimed at "Sips" (short of T-Sip, or Tea-sipper, any person unfortunate enough to enroll at the University of Texas) and Baptists, or Deacons, from Baylor University. 27 April 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section B, pg. 2: "They're both tea-sips. It's going to be an orange wedding." 27 May 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: "He," remarked the cadet of the Person up there, "must have been a tea-sip." 27 October 1970, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section D, pg. 2: As a "Tea-Sip," wife of one, mother of two and mother-in-law of one and, as a subscriber to both the Daily Texan and the Austin American, I feel that I am far better qualified to evaluate the university than Mr. Fessi after one trip to one campus dormitory. 21 February 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Bully Gilstrap Theory on 'Tea-Sipper' Label" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 21: WHY ARE University of Texas at Austin students and even former UT students, scoffingly called "tea-sippers". Questions about this tea-sipper label have come to my desk in a sudden covey of letters, an occurrence I blame on the fact that the dog star is not presently in ascendency. On his rancho near Rosebud, Texas, a real authority on the University of Texas' past, the Hon. Bully Gilstrip, proper his bare feet up on a coffee table (Bully goes bare-footed a lot except during sticker season) and gave me this answer: "The tea-sipper insult is involved with out 'hook 'em horns!' signal, with which followers of the university's athletic teams have been gesturing their allegiance for several decades." BULLY GILSTRAP raised a massive paw in the "hook 'em horns" finger positions, with the middle fingers folded and the fore finger and little finger erect. Mr. Gilstrap declared that this gesture by Texas U. aficionados and aficionadas called up to Texas Aggie minds the act of daintily holding a tea cup with the little finger at high port. "And that's why Aggies, generations ago, started calling us Texas U. folks tea-sippers," said Bully, who spent a quarter of a century as a star athlete and then a coach who became a kind of "institution" at the University of Texas. "BULLY'S WRONG" chorused Mike Quinn, Paul Crume and WIlbur Evans, all stout Orangemen although not necessarily to obnoxious degrees. "That 'hook 'em horns' salute was first innovated by a University of Texas cheer-leader named Harley Clark, now an Austin lawyer, late in the 1950's," said Mr. Quinn. "Bully says they were making the hook 'em salute when he played on an unbeaten Texas football team 51 years ago," I said in rebuttal. "And one story is that the tea-sipper tag was hung on the university in the late 1930's or early 1940's when Dana X. Bible was head football coach and he was said to serve tea and cookies to his athletes as a light meal before games," said Mr. Crume. DANA XENOPHON Bible, the 82-year-old head coach emeritus of the University of Texas who was also a successful head football coach at LSU, Texas A&M, and the University of Nebraska, was asked about this. "Ridiculous," he said. "I never held any teas for football players." Mr. Bible was coach at Texas A&M from 1917 until he went to Nebraska in 1928. And he declared: "As I recall University of Texas people were being called tea-sippers at the time I had my great unbeaten, untied, and unscored on football team at A&M in 1917." (The same team, which didn't operate in 1918 because the coach and most of the players had gone to war, lost its only game 3-7 in the 1920 season, and these were the only points scored on the team during 3 seasons.) WILBUR EVANS, a University of Texas product who is doing a book on A&M, said that he seemed to recall a reference to "tea-sippers" in an ancient version of the Texas Aggie War Song. The lusty lyrics for The War Song were written in the trenches of France in 1918 by an Aggie, James V. (Pinky) Wilson, and begin "Hulla-balloo, hulla-ballo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." and have that refrain "Goodye to Texas Universi-tee, etc." Mr. Evans thinks the War Song may have once had lyrics which went something like this: "T is for Texas U.? Hell no! T is for tea-sippers: Hulla-ballo, hulla-baloo, Caneck, Caneck, etc." MR. CRUME said that the 2 uplifted fingers resemble snails, at least with his hand, and signify the slowness of Longhorn running backs. 4 September 1974, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 1: Many University of Texas graduates have plates saying "HOOK EM" or some other variant. The ones that can't get "Hook 'Em" get a variant of "TEA SIP," which describes us old Texas boys who never take strong drink. Google Books The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas Music and Lyrics by Carol Hall Book by Larry l. King and Peter Masterson Based on a story by Larry L. King New York, NY: Samuel French, Inc. 1983 Pg. 56: AGGIE I. YeeeeHaw! Didn't them Teasippers step in a deep pile of Aggie Shit! College Football Forum October 05, 2006 9:17 AM (...) "tea sip" - Student of University of Texas ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 16:59:13 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that far. http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 Scot PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 17:38:25 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:38:25 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: There is an earlier(1697) cite http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1 which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a dog!" Just saying. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scot LaFaive" To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM Subject: Fight like a man I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that far. http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 Scot PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 7 17:59:21 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:59:21 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man Message-ID: And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Fucking tarbaby. Mr. Brydges actually lived some hundred years AFTER the Google hit. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Fight like a man > There is an earlier(1697) cite > http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1 > which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a > dog!" > > Just saying. > > Sam Clements > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scot LaFaive" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM > Subject: Fight like a man > > > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work > on > it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was > just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that > far. > http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 > > Scot > PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me > _________________________________________________________________ > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 17:58:16 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:58:16 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710071738.l97ArFmE027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very interesting, though I'm leery of those Google hits that don't let you see the title page or copyright info. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:38:25 -0400> From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Fight like a man> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > There is an earlier(1697) cite> http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1> which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a> dog!"> > Just saying.> > Sam Clements> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Scot LaFaive" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM> Subject: Fight like a man> > > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work on> it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was> just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that> far.> http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22> > Scot> PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me> _________________________________________________________________> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 18:01:48 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:01:48 -0500 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710071759.l97ArFnm027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Oh :) Those bastards. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 13:59:21 -0400> From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sam Clements > Subject: Re: Fight like a man> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > And now I see that I've been fooled by Google. Fucking tarbaby.> > Mr. Brydges actually lived some hundred years AFTER the Google hit.> > Sam Clements> ----- Original Message -----> From: "Sam Clements" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:38 PM> Subject: Re: Fight like a man> > > > There is an earlier(1697) cite> > http://books.google.com/books?id=uEkrAAAAIAAJ&q=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&dq=%22die+like+a+dog%22+date:1600-1750&as_brr=0&pgis=1> > which says "Draw, Menteith, and defend yourself like a man, or die like a> > dog!"> >> > Just saying.> >> > Sam Clements> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: "Scot LaFaive" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:59 PM> > Subject: Fight like a man> >> >> > I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done work> > on> > it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is right). This was> > just a preliminary search, but it's interesting that it could go back that> > far.> > http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22> >> > Scot> > PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me> > _________________________________________________________________> > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 18:27:17 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 11:27:17 -0700 Subject: paralepsis In-Reply-To: <200710070205.l96AkKOH003646@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, "paralepsis" is the form that I'd have used. I presume, since I can't remember clearly, that my high-school Latin teacher used it in discussing Cicero. (Tedious then, highly nostalgiafied now.) He was from Maine and not a substituter of / I / for / E /. Recommended reading for high-school Classicists: poem, "The School Boy Reads His Iliad," by David Morton (1921) (though it was not "tops" that were on our minds). JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: paralepsis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In another forum, I just used the word "paralepsize" as a nonce coinage in the sense 'to suggest something by saying you won't mention it', from "paralepsis". Then I looked for it in OED Online and got There are no results. The nearest alphabetical match-point is displayed in the side-frame. and that was "paralerema, n". "What?", I thought, "don't they have 'paralepsis'?!" And the answer is, not exactly: it is listed only as an irregular form of "paralipsis", in centuries "15 19-". I was surprised, having known the word for years, but only in the "e" spelling. Googits are about 2-1 for the "i" spelling: "about 21,300 for paralipsis" "about 10,300 for paralepsis" m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Oct 7 20:54:52 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:54:52 -0500 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" Message-ID: Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Gerald Cohen South-Central Missouri ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:34:34 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:34:34 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072055.l97Ask2x027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Suggested by "hotter [or harder] than the hobs of hell"? JL "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Gerald Cohen South-Central Missouri ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sun Oct 7 21:34:31 2007 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 17:34:31 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE58088@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > The economist (?) noted for describing life as "nasty, brutish, and short"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes) -- ======================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:39:53 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:39:53 -0700 Subject: Unrecorded cuss formation Message-ID: A friend reports that her mother, from Harlan, Ky., never ever uses foul language. The exception was when she was trying to get her sewing machine to operate properly during the 1950s. On those occasions she could be heard to mutter, frequently, "Shit to the devil!" JL --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 21:40:50 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 16:40:50 -0500 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072055.l97ArFuE027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: After searching Google, Google Groups, and Google Books, I don't find any uses of this expression in any inflected form. Sorry. Scot > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:54:52 -0500> From: gcohen at UMR.EDU> Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes"> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes"> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it.> > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is?> > Gerald Cohen> South-Central Missouri> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 21:55:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:55:59 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072134.l97Ask3f027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Nasty,_poor_, brutish, and short." Said by someone to be a desciption of Alexander Pope. JL Alice Faber wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Alice Faber Organization: Haskins Laboratories Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > The economist (?) noted for describing life as "nasty, brutish, and short"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes) -- ======================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 7 22:02:46 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:02:46 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE58088@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: >Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said >that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = >simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she >said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady >answered that her mother had often used it. > >I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't >appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with >it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Likely it's the same as the "hob" in "play hob", "raise hob". I suppose this "hob" _may_ be originally a name like "Bob", but for practical purposes it's just something beginning with an "h", used as a euphemism for "hell". Here maybe the unfamiliar "hob" has been reinterpreted as "Hobbes" (the surname, but not necessarily with any particular person alluded to), or maybe the word is just "hobs", arbitrarily pluralized or pluralized to make "hobs" = "hobgoblins" or something like that ... or maybe the old lady actually said "hob"? Just my casual notions. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1055 - Release Date: 10/7/2007 10:24 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 22:34:58 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:34:58 -0700 Subject: Semantic drift: "khaki" In-Reply-To: <200709170356.l8GAkHGH016800@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For anyone not yet bored silly by this topic: As early as 1919, popular novelist Rex Beach refers to the World War I army uniform indiscriminately as "khaki" and "olive drab" on the same page: 1919 Rex Beach _Too Fat to Fight_ (N.Y.: Harper's) 27 [ref. to 1918]: Every time I see a doughboy I want to stand at attention and throw out my chest....There's something sacred about that olive drab. It's like your mother's wedding-dress, only holier, and decenter, if possible....Those swinging arms, those rifles aslant, those leggings flashing, and that sea, of khaki rising, falling - Gee! There's something about it. JL Amy West wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Amy West Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My brother, who trained me to spit-shine, used to starch his fatigues as a youngster. They were olive drab or camouflage. I think the only khaki-coloring I saw in his uniforms were in his desert camies. We never called his uniforms anything but "fatigues", less frequently BDUs (basic duty uniform?). Again, this is late 1970s. I have heard khakis refer to the style of pants also known as chinos: for example, at one point at the museum job we were told to wear khakis and a golf shirt as a uniform. ---Amy (Again, not a lot of help) West >Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:14:22 -0700 >From: Dave Wilton >Subject: Re: Semantic drift: "khaki" > >IIRC, the US Army abandoned its tropical/summer khaki uniforms in the early >1980s, leaving only the olive-drab uniform. I would suspect that if the >meaning shifted it would be after this date, at least in American usage. > >During the 60s and 70s there was a true US Army khaki uniform, which would >have been worn in tropical Vietnam. Perhaps Heinemann is referring to the >true khaki uniform and this is being misinterpreted. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 7 22:36:05 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:36:05 -0400 Subject: Mystery of "Mr. Bojangles" Message-ID: "Mr. Bojangles" is 1968 song written by Jerry Jeff Walker of Austin. It is not about Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, but surely was influenced by Robinson. ... Are there any cites of "bojangles" and "bejangled" pre-1935? Does any cite in ProQuest's Black Newspaper Collection explain "bojangles"? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mr_bojangles_person_and_song_title/ ... Entry from October 07, 2007 Mr. Bojangles (person and song title) "Mr. Bojangles" is a 1968 song title by Jerry Jeff Walker (a popular performer on the Austin music scene, especially in the 1970s). The song describes a dancer, known throughout the South, down on his luck in a New Orleans jail. Walker said that the character was based on Babe Stovall, a New Orleans guitar player and singer. Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (1878-1949) was a famous Harlem dancer; although the song "Mr. Bojangles" is not based on Robinson's life, it was Robinson who made the name "Bojangles" famous. In 1977, the Bojangles chain of chicken and biscuits restaurants was founded. The origin of "Bojangles" is uncertain. The term "jingle-jangle" has long been in use, as has the word "jangle" (noise, ringing, chatter). Harriet Beecher Stowe used the word "bejangled" in 1867. Wikipedia: Mr. Bojangles (song) "Mr. Bojangles" is a popular song, written and initially recorded by Jerry Jeff Walker in 1968 and covered since by many other artists. The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band took the song to #9 on the Billboard pop chart in 1971. It was about an obscure alcoholic but talented tap dancing drifter (not the famous stage and movie dancer Bill "Bojangles" Robinson, as sometimes assumed). Bojangles is thought to have been a folk character who entertained informally in the south of the US and California, and some say he might have been one of the most gifted natural dancers ever. His actual name is not recorded. Authentic reports of him exist from the 1920s through about 1965. According to the lyrics by Jerry Jeff Walker, he met Bojangles in a prison cell in New Orleans (the first precinct jail to be exact). The two began to converse about life. Bojangles began to dance as Walker admired his skill. Walker has said that the character was based on Babe Stovall, a guitar player and singer who worked in New Orleans in the late sixties. He played a National Dobro steel body guitar, with, as he used to say "...just a finger and a thumb? I don't read a note of music..." Wikipedia: Jerry Jeff Walker Jerry Jeff Walker (born March 16, 1942) is a country music singer. Walker was born Ronald Clyde Crosby in Oneonta, New York. (...) Trivia Some have called Jerry Jeff the Jimmy Buffett of Texas. Oddly enough, it was Jerry Jeff who first drove Jimmy Buffett to Key West (from New Orleans, Louisiana in a Packard). Jerry Jeff has an annual birthday celebration bash in Austin, Texas. This party has become an enormous event in Texas and brings some of the biggest names in country music out for a night of picking and swapping stories under the Austin skyline. Jimmy Buffett attended the 2004 Birthday bash. Wikipedia: Bill Robinson Bill "Bojangles" Robinson (May 25, 1878 ? November 25, 1949) was a pioneer and pre-eminent African-American tap dance performer. (...) Toward the end of the vaudeville era a white impresario, Lew Leslie, produced Blackbirds of 1928, a black revue for white audiences featuring Robinson and other black stars. From then on his public role was that of a dapper, smiling, plaid-suited ambassador to the white world, maintaining a tenuous connection with the black show-business circles through his continuing patronage of the Hoofer's Club, an entertainer's haven in Harlem. Consequently, blacks and whites developed differing opinions of him. To whites, for example, his nickname "Bojangles" meant happy-go-lucky, while the black variety artist Tom Flatcher claimed it was slang for "squabbler." Mr. Bojangles (lyrics) - Nitty Gritty Dirt Band I knew a man Bojangles and he danced for you in worn out shoes With silver hair, a ragged shirt and baggy pants, the old soft shoe He jumped so high, he jumped so high, Then he lightly touched down I met him in a cell in New Orleans, I was - down and out He looked at me to be the eyes of age as he spoke right out He talked of life, he talked of life, he laughed, slapped his leg a step Mr. Bojangles, Mr. Bojangles Mr. Bojangles, dance! ... Bojangles' Famous Chicken 'n Biscuits History >From a dream . . . Bojangles' began in 1977 as the dream of operators Jack Fulk and Richard Thomas. They saw an opportunity to develop a quick service restaurant chain based on three attributes: A distinctive, spicy flavor profile Wholesome, high-quality made-from-scratch products A fun, festive restaurant design with fast, friendly service. The core menu then was the same as it is today?spicy, Cajun style chicken served with fresh buttermilk biscuits, and one-of-a-kind fixin's, like Dirty Rice? or Cajun Pintos?. The light, buttery made-from-scratch biscuits are also the basis for the best breakfast in the industry. Biscuit sandwiches filled with mouth-watering items like spicy chicken filets, seasoned sausage or steak, country ham, eggs and cheese are served hot and fresh all day, every day. Sweet biscuits such as Cinnamon Biscuits and BoBerry Biscuits (r) are all-day favorites as well. (Oxford English Dictionary) jangle, n. 1. Idle talk, chatter, jabber; an idle word. Obs. 2. Contention, altercation, bickering. 3. Discordant sound, ring, or clang. 4. Confused and noisy talk; the mingled din of voices. (A kind of blending of senses 1 and 3.) Google Books Religious Poems by Harriet Beecher Stowe Boston, MA: Ticknor and Fields 1867 Pg. 14 ("Knocking, Ever Knocking"): Though forsaken and betangled, Ivy-gnarled and weed-bejangled,... 9 August 1928, Ironwood (MI) Daily Globe, "'Creole Follies Co.' At the Ironwood Tonight," pg. 4, col. 4: Following in the footsteps of the world's renowned Plantation Days and Shuffle Along shows, Creole Follies Company will hold forth at the Ironwood Theatre, for 2 days,starting tonight. This company of colored entertainers consists of some of the most talented performers known in the theatrical world. (...) One of the oustanding hits of the Creole Follies is the Bojangles Slide, a dance step introduced by Bill Robinson, internationally known as a headlined vaudeville artist and anyone who has seen Bill will readily see that it is his style of entertainment with which he has endured himself to the hearts of the American Theatre going public.?Advt. 27 November 1934, La Crosse (WI) Tribune and Leader-Press, pg. 3, col. 4: Bill Robinson is the only colored person ever to be profiled in two parts in the New Yorker. And now a publisher is angling for the astute Gene Fowler to write the biography of "Bojangles." 27 June 1935, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 1, pg. 10: DID YOU KNOW Bill Robinson's nickname is Bojangles. The Negro tap dance king began his career at 5 by earning nickels and dimes by dancing in beer gardens. The public schools of his home town found him a deportment problem. As a result his formal schooling ended when he was 6 years old. His first real dancing job brought him $5 a week and board. Some years later he was making $2.00 a week as a vaudeville headliner. He has never taken a dance lesson. 13 September 1935, Helena (MT) Independent, pg. 4, col. 6: "My nerves are distraught and bejangled while I'm in this manner employed; four grocers were horribly mangled, their shoes and their hats were destroyed." Internet Movie Database Soundtracks for Swing Time (1936) "Bojangles of Harlem" Written by Jerome Kern, Hal Borne, Dorothy Fields Song and dance performed by Fred Astaire, chorus (Trademark) Word Mark BILL ROBINSON'S BOJANGLES Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 033. US 047. G & S: WINES. FIRST USE: 19500406. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19500406 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71605320 Filing Date October 23, 1950 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0553918 Registration Date January 22, 1952 Owner (REGISTRANT) MONARCH WINE COMPANY OF GEORGIA CORPORATION GEORGIA SO. ATLANTA STATION SAWTELL AVE. ATLANTA GEORGIA Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 19720122 Other Data THE INDIVIDUAL WHOSE NAME IS USED AS A PART AND PARCEL OF THE TRADE-MARK HEREIN IS A DECEASED THEATRICAL CELEBRITY. Live/Dead Indicator DEAD (Trademark) Word Mark BOJANGLES' FRIED CHICKEN Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19770501. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19770501 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 73163290 Filing Date March 23, 1978 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 1124591 Registration Date August 28, 1979 Owner (REGISTRANT) BOJANGLES' OF AMERICA, INC. CORPORATION NORTH CAROLINA P. O. BOX 906 WILKESBORO NORTH CAROLINA 28697 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Disclaimer THE DESCRIPTIVE WORDS "FRIED CHICKEN" ARE DISCLAIMED APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN. Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date December 15, 2000 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 7 22:41:38 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 15:41:38 -0700 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072202.l97ArFwc027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm with Doug in this. JL "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said >that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = >simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she >said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady >answered that her mother had often used it. > >I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't >appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with >it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? Likely it's the same as the "hob" in "play hob", "raise hob". I suppose this "hob" _may_ be originally a name like "Bob", but for practical purposes it's just something beginning with an "h", used as a euphemism for "hell". Here maybe the unfamiliar "hob" has been reinterpreted as "Hobbes" (the surname, but not necessarily with any particular person alluded to), or maybe the word is just "hobs", arbitrarily pluralized or pluralized to make "hobs" = "hobgoblins" or something like that ... or maybe the old lady actually said "hob"? Just my casual notions. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1055 - Release Date: 10/7/2007 10:24 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 00:49:12 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 20:49:12 -0400 Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" In-Reply-To: <200710072134.l97ArFvY027707@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm with you, Jon. That's my WAG, too. -Wilson On 10/7/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Query: "gone to Hobbes" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Suggested by "hotter [or harder] than the hobs of hell"? > > JL > > "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Query: "gone to Hobbes" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today I was told that a 90 year old lady had matter-of-factly said that the crops this year "have just gone to Hobbes" (roughly = simply went to hell in a handbasket). The younger lady to whom she said this then asked her about the expression, and the older lady answered that her mother had often used it. > > I don't have OED or DARE handy, but I see the expression doesn't appear in the ads-l archives or HDAS. Is anyone here familiar with it and would anyone have any idea who Hobbes in the expression is? > > Gerald Cohen > South-Central Missouri > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 8 01:15:12 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 18:15:12 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <478783.22429.qm@web32012.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue > of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the > magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. i've been to two downtown palo alto stores with tons of magazines, but neither carries Good. and the piece doesn't seem to be on the on- line site (which has lots of stuff). still working on getting access to the magazine. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 01:54:44 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 21:54:44 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Perhaps not a desired instance? ("men", not "a man") Pennsylvania Gazette, 27 October 1757, p. 3, col. 1 [Early American Newspapers]. and the Indians finding their Endeavors to force the Door were in vain, called to the young Fellows in English, to come out and fight like Men, and not stay in the House to be murdered. So the origin is from the Iroquois? :-) Or you can have "fight like lions" from 1736, "fight like devils" from 1745, fight like Britons from 1758, ... . Joel At 10/7/2007 12:59 PM, Scot LaFAive wrote: >I was curious about "Fight like a man" (not sure if anyone has done >work on it) and found a cite from 1750 (assuming Google Books is >right). This was just a preliminary search, but it's interesting >that it could go back that far. >http://books.google.com/books?id=cWskAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22fight+like+a+man%22 > >Scot >PS sorry for the way my emails look...this new Hotmail is messin' with me >_________________________________________________________________ >Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! >http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 03:23:55 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:23:55 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <200710070026.l96AoTv5012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Shouldn't that be a-prefixing _a-dying_ out? :-) -Wilson On 10/6/07, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On page 1 of the Knoxville News-Sentinel today, there is a photo of a > Knox County resident responding to a court decision this week announced > by said newspaper in the headline "Judge tosses 12." > > The photo shows a sign designed by a group of concerned citizens re the > political mess that resulted in the headline. The sign reads: > > I'M A-WISHIN' > FOR A BETTER > COMMISSION > > There may be t-shirts - I will try to make some available if there are. > > (We could do pronunciation too, of course.) > > Bethany > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 8 04:03:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:03:31 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710061852.l96AoTmr012777@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An article in NewsTime claims that the BrE spelling, "Burma" [b^:m@] is based upon Burmese _Ba:ma_ [b*:m@], itself based upon the standard BrE transliteration of Sanskrit-based alphabets. The AmE r-ful pronunciation is based upon the BrE spelling. -Wilson On 10/6/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ah, Wellman! Who Fears the Devil is one of my all-time favorite books. IMHO, > though, he should've stuck to his shorts, so to speak; I've read his novels > once, and that's about that. > > m a m > > On 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > > and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > > Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Oct 8 04:59:37 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 00:59:37 EDT Subject: Does anyone know of this type of German dictionary? Message-ID: I noticed no one was answering the question, so I sent it to our former German exchange students. (They are former exchange students; not former Germans!) Following my sig line is the one reply I got. Rosemarie I saw an ad that said '24-Hour Banking,' but I don't have that much time. -- Steven Wright _http://deu.proz.com/index.php3?sp=kog_ (http://deu.proz.com/index.php3?sp=kog) ... Maybe that helps. But just think about it?most of the computer termina is English anyway?so no need for a translation???? At the page you can choose b/w computer(allgemein) ? general, computer hardware, computer software, comuter ? system and networks. Maybe it helps?.i also just put it in google but it is a german site?k?have fun! XXOO Sascha ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Oct 8 11:23:50 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 07:23:50 -0400 Subject: a-prefixing dying out? NOT! In-Reply-To: <82745f630710072023p4fb9cb90i16aae089074835b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Point, Wilson! Bethany On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Wilson Gray wrote: > Shouldn't that be > > a-prefixing _a-dying_ out? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 15:23:25 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 11:23:25 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) Message-ID: From a colleague: >_http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html?_r=1&oref=slogi >n_ >(http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/weekinreview/07mcgrath.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) > > >October 7, 2007 >Death-Knell. Or Death Knell. >By CHARLES McGRATH > >THE Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, the scaled-down, two-volume version >of the mammoth 20-volume O.E.D., just got a >little shorter. With the dispatch >of a waiter flicking away flyspecks, the editor, Angus Stevenson, eliminated >some 16,000 hyphens from the sixth edition, >published last month. ???People are >not confident about using hyphens anymore,??? he >said. ???They???re not really >sure what they???re for.??? > >[SEE URL FOR COMPLETE ARTICLE..... rr]] Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 8 23:38:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:38:20 -0400 Subject: Fight like a man In-Reply-To: <200710080155.l981tCpx013628@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/7/2007 09:54 PM, Iwrote: >Or you can have "fight like lions" from 1736, "fight like devils" >from 1745, fight like Britons from 1758, ... . Considering the article in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine, perhaps these should be replaced by "fight like red squirrels"? The article says "But over time the red squirrel became beloved in Britain. It supplanted the realm's old icon, the lion, as the symbol of a gentler, more evolved nation" (p. 68, col. 2). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Oct 9 10:27:30 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 06:27:30 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710081523.l98Al2P0032325@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: >People are >>not confident about using hyphens anymore >From the Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary (c. 1951), the long usage note at _hyphen_ quotes John Benbow (author of _Manuscript and Proof_, the style book of OUP-NY): "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 9 15:53:46 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:53:46 -0400 Subject: riflerized Message-ID: Does anyone have any idea what is meant here by "riflerized"? I assume it's a transcription error but I can't figure out what it's supposed to be. SCHWEITZER: Greta, I think that you know that a court has to weigh all the evidence, and it just depends on how much weight he's going to put on this gentleman's declaration. I would argue that, you know, it is remote and the court shouldn't consider it greatly, but it has to consider the evidence. This court has to consider all the evidence presented and make some determination. So it's not irrelevant. VAN SUSTEREN: I would ? you know what? I would think it's almost silly because he didn't even come into court. Now, no one asked him to come into court, but he basically signed a piece of paper, Gloria filed it, and... [...] SCHWEITZER: Let me explain that to you. In California, we have what's called "riflerized decisions," or "regularized declarations." The court can make rulings based on declarations during these pendente lite hearings. Other than a trial... Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From oupr0026 at HERALD.OX.AC.UK Tue Oct 9 16:17:39 2007 From: oupr0026 at HERALD.OX.AC.UK (Alex Steer) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 17:17:39 +0100 Subject: riflerized Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Grant Barrett wrote: > Does anyone have any idea what is meant here by "riflerized"? I > assume it's a transcription error but I can't figure out what it's > supposed to be. Various quick searches for rifleri[sz]* have turned up nothing further. My best guess would be a mishearing (a bit of a long shot to mishear 'g'<-->'f', but audio 'noise' could be a factor) for 'regularized'. That would make sense in context, as: 'In California, we have what's called "regularized decisions," or "regularized declarations." The court can make rulings based on declarations during these pendente lite hearings.' In which 'regularized' is the common term, and 'declaration' and 'decision' vary. This also seems to fit the contextual clue of a declaration that becomes a ruling (which regularized = 'made into a ruling'). Alex ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 9 17:54:45 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 13:54:45 -0400 Subject: Heard on the Judges Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish white woman: "He was talkin' on the telephone and he was _doin'_ this _number_: "Listen to this! Listen to this!" I guess that "do ... number," as opposed to a simple "VP ..." - e.g., she didn't say, "... he was saying ..." or whatever - is not peculiar to black speech. The woman didn't mention where she was from, though she did mention having been to North Carolina. FWIW, her speech was r-ful and [ei] tended toward [^i] or [ai]. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Tue Oct 9 19:02:28 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710091027.l994Nse4017495@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. L. Urdang Old Lyme Barnhart wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Barnhart Subject: Re: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- American Dialect Society writes: >People are >>not confident about using hyphens anymore >From the Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary (c. 1951), the long usage note at _hyphen_ quotes John Benbow (author of _Manuscript and Proof_, the style book of OUP-NY): "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad." Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 9 19:58:48 2007 From: markpeters33 at YAHOO.COM (Mark Peters) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 12:58:48 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <200710080115.l97AskAp027756@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Now it's online: http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Stimuli/mark_peters_on_the_colbert_suffix "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: The Colbert suffix ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:42 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Just wanted to let everyone know I have an article in the new issue > of Good magazine on Arnold's term the Colbert suffix. Buy the > magazine and read all about faithy-ness, scienciness, and youthiness. i've been to two downtown palo alto stores with tons of magazines, but neither carries Good. and the piece doesn't seem to be on the on- line site (which has lots of stuff). still working on getting access to the magazine. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 9 21:49:02 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:49:02 -0700 Subject: The Colbert suffix In-Reply-To: <785435.44042.qm@web32011.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2007, at 12:58 PM, Mark Peters wrote: > Now it's online: > > http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Stimuli/ > mark_peters_on_the_colbert_suffix cool. as mark knows, i drove that hard mile and a half to menlo park to get a copy of the magazine at the wonderful Kepler's (not long ago saved from closire). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 10 10:07:53 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:07:53 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 Message-ID: "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 11:34:19 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:34:19 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <20071010060753.pm6tl1xp7oosocsc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, Congratulations on this outstanding discovery, which certainly is Murphy's-Law-ish. Also, your many other antedatings posted recently have been absolutely first-rate. Can I ask out of curiosity, which database yielded this 1877-8 citation? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:07 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 10 12:06:06 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:06:06 -0400 Subject: AP story on "wide stance" Message-ID: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3710787 ...with several quotes from Grant Barrett about WOTY candidates "wide stance" and "toe-tapper". --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 10 12:40:09 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:40:09 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EDE5@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Google Books. The first view of the result gives, wrongly, 1935. The next screen gives a "snippet" and two different dates. The quotation and citation below are from the original paper publication. SG Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > Stephen, > > Congratulations on this outstanding discovery, which certainly is > Murphy's-Law-ish. Also, your many other antedatings posted recently > have been absolutely first-rate. Can I ask out of curiosity, which > database yielded this 1877-8 citation? > > Fred Shapiro > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 6:07 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 > > "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong > sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the > safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too > many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and > occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of > requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to > indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can > hardly be > laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely > neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine > must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." > > In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the > Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, > here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil > Engineers, Vol. > LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. > > Stephen Goranson > http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 10 13:42:48 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:42:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710100402.l9A1EvLk012156@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Laurence Urdang > In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have > passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced > in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. (And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not that.) I'll have to pay attention to my own usage when it comes up again, and report back sometime. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 10 13:59:42 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:59:42 -0500 Subject: docent Message-ID: >From an Associated Press article, available on-line at http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 0071006124409990001 Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing year-round on the first Saturday of the month. Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents so dates can be added. "Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have been published in 1972. What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke College is dated 1838. You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The journal was in Norwegian. James A. Landau Test Engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore and make the promised purchase. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 10 14:31:15 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:31:15 -0400 Subject: docent In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52C97A615@XMBIL101.northgrum. com> Message-ID: The OED(2) definition sure needs an updating. E.g,, museum docents. Joel At 10/10/2007 09:59 AM, James Landau wrote: > From an Associated Press article, available on-line at >http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 >0071006124409990001 > >Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public >By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP > >The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army >Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will >begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing >year-round on the first Saturday of the month. > >Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at >least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents >so dates can be added. > > >"Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". > >OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" > >OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. >Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have >been published in 1972. > >What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit >number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. >Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the >issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded >in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges >put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. >Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke >College is dated 1838. > >You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The >journal was in Norwegian. > >James A. Landau >Test Engineer >Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES >^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore >in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry >Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he >was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore >and make the promised purchase. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jdhall at WISC.EDU Wed Oct 10 14:57:27 2007 From: jdhall at WISC.EDU (Joan H. Hall) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:57:27 -0500 Subject: Fred Cassidy's centennial Message-ID: Today marks the hundredth anniversary of Fred Cassidy's birth, and we're marking the occasion with an event celebrating Fred and DARE at the Wisconsin Book Festival. Here's the resolution that the ADS Executive Council passed at January's annual meeting: A Resolution Honoring Frederic G. Cassidy Whereas: October 10, 2007 marks the centennial of the birth of Frederic G. Cassidy; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was a longtime active member of the American Dialect Society; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was the catalyst for, the director of, and the best possible booster for the Society?s official dictionary, the Dictionary of American Regional English; and Whereas: Fred Cassidy was mentor to a large number of ADS members, and friend and colleague to others; Therefore: We, the members of the Executive Committee of the American Dialect Society, do hereby declare October 10, 2007 ?Frederic G. Cassidy Day,? on which friends are encouraged to raise a glass of Jamaican rum in Fred?s memory and cry out with vigor, ?On to Z!? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Wed Oct 10 15:16:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:16:12 -0400 Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 In-Reply-To: <200710101136.l9AAkrbx003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ish, smish. This provides a wonderful Colbert extension: KISSINESS, as in Keep It Simple, Stupid. (the other) doug Subject: murphy's-law-ish text, 1877-8 "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later, so it is not to be wondered that owners prefer the safe to the scientific. It is also found that it is almost as bad to have too many parts as too few; that arrangements which are for exceptional and occasional use are rarely available when wanted, and have the disadvantage of requiring additional care. Their very presence, too, seems in effect to indispose the engineer to attend to essentials. Sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity. The human factor cannot be safely neglected in planning machinery. If attention is to be obtained, the engine must be such that the engineer will be disposed to attend to it." In the November 13, 1877 session, published 1878, Alfred Holt, "Review of the Progress of Steam Shipping during the last Quarter of a Century," pp. 2-11, here p. 8, Minutes of Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers, Vol. LI, Session 1877-78--Part I. London: Published by the Institution, 1878. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:02:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:02:03 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710041226k64466985t4b5fec0e312cc9b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:26 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume >that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far >more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none >whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP >and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly >Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing >all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, >especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you >haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters >and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, >if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two >versions. > >FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. > >-Wilson Not too recently, I trust, given that (while Ralph is still going strong) Carter died 40 years ago, which had deleterious consequences on his crosspicking technique... LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:09:20 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:09:20 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710041347r77ea9faek59d9f04d8d7fd1f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > >-Wilson Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? LH > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically >> used to represent [@:]). >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> > Wilson, >> > >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> > both). >> > >> > dInIs >> > >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > >----------------------- >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." >> > > >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> > > >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> > > >> > >-Wilson >> > > >> > > >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > >>----------------------- >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> > >> >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> > >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> > >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >-- >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > >----- >> > > -Sam'l Clemens >> > > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Dennis R. Preston >> > University Distinguished Professor >> > Department of English >> > 15C Morrill Hall >> > Michigan State University >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 >> > 517-353-4736 >> > preston at msu.edu >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:32:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <470CD6D8.8080009@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: >From: Laurence Urdang > >>In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have >>passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced >>in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. > >I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and >there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the >other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's >going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. >(And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not that.) > There are certainly syntactic differences. For me, for example: I didn't eat any more (*anymore) of the raw liver. I don't eat raw liver anymore (?any more). I wouldn't eat raw liver, any more (*anymore) than I would eat raw kidneys. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:49:22 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:49:22 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) Message-ID: As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the "-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 19:51:37 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:51:37 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710101932.l9AHwps1003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find increasingly rare. I think "positive anymore" is driving "negative any more" out of existence. Or, at least that's what it seems in Athens, which one daughter once claimed was situated "between Appalachia and the Midwest." -db On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >From: Laurence Urdang > > > >>In unresponsive reply to Barnhart's note, anymore seems to have > >>passed, unnoticed but by me, from being two words (and so pronounced > >>in my speech) to a single word, without a hyphenated transition. > > > >I feel like there's a difference between 'anymore' and 'any more', and > >there are times in my writing when i'm certain that one is right and the > >other is wrong--but it's a subtle thing, and i'm not certain of what's > >going on myself, i've just thought it's bizarre of myself in the past. > >(And, FWIW, i can use 'anymore' positively or negatively, so it's not > that.) > > > There are certainly syntactic differences. For me, for example: > > I didn't eat any more (*anymore) of the raw liver. > I don't eat raw liver anymore (?any more). > I wouldn't eat raw liver, any more (*anymore) than I would eat raw > kidneys. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From flanigan at OHIO.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:53:45 2007 From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:53:45 -0400 Subject: suspend sub Message-ID: Please suspend my ads-l subscription for now. (I can't remember how to do it, Terry and Jesse!) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 10 19:56:50 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:56:50 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <20071010154922.HWW09710@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 3:49 PM -0400 10/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the >"-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or >affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say >that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than >in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? > >--Charlie Oh right, "feller". Also "holler" ('declivity'), "winder", and "tater". I see now that there's a "regional note" under "holler" in the AHD4 , but it indicates all these are indeed pronounced rhotically in the relevant (Appalachian) area, which is, of course, a rhotic area. So I'm a bit confused still. Are there two different processes involved, which overlap and clash? LH >_____________________________________________________________ > > >> >>Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, >>that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old >>Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final >>/@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation >>is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 20:02:04 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:02:04 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101902.l9AAmZgN005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Got damp in the basement, but it didn't get wet! Larry, will you *please* stop reminding me how old I am?! Have a little mercy. Yes, it was back in the mid-'Sixties in Los Angeles that I saw the Stanley Brothers. At that particular time and place, the blue-grass sound was so hip that *everybody* was diggin' it. Well, not to the extent that the previous sentence may imply. Once you get past the Stanleys, my knowledge of blue-grass diminishes to the level of "I know it when I hear it." Off the top of my head, I know only the ancient "Mountain Dew" and the strange "Finger poppin' Time," WRT song-titles. -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:26 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I don't know. I merely assumed, as your quote notes. I further assume > >that the determination of "more marked" v. "less marked" takes far > >more experience than I have, i.e. for all practical purposes, none > >whatsoever, since I avoid eye-dialect BE as written by whites on GP > >and, WRT eye-dialect WE, Erskine Caldwell, MacKinlay Kantor, and Manly > >Wade Wellman are about as far as I care to go, though I enjoy hearing > >all Southern and Southern-based dialects, whether white or black, > >especially the drawled and r-less varieties, spoken or sung. If you > >haven't heard "Finger-Poppin' Time" done by the the black Midnighters > >and the cover by the white Stanley Brothers, you're missing a treat, > >if for no other reason than the stylistic contrast between the two > >versions. > > > >FWIW, I've paid money to hear the Stanleys in person. > > > >-Wilson > > Not too recently, I trust, given that (while Ralph is still going > strong) Carter died 40 years ago, which had deleterious consequences > on his crosspicking technique... > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Wed Oct 10 21:29:57 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:29:57 -0700 Subject: docent In-Reply-To: <200710101431.l9AAkr3N003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my personal (as contrasted with professional, lexicographic) experience, a docent is not merely any "tour guide" but one who works in a museum and is usually knowledgeable about the exhibited art. Today, of course, anybody shouting about Soho from the top of a tour bus might well be called a docent. L. Urdang Old Lyme "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: docent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The OED(2) definition sure needs an updating. E.g,, museum docents. Joel At 10/10/2007 09:59 AM, James Landau wrote: > From an Associated Press article, available on-line at >http://news.aol.com/story/ar/_a/recently-formed-canyon-opens-to-public/2 >0071006124409990001 > >Recently Formed Canyon Opens to Public >By MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP > >The Guadalupe Blanco River Authority, which has a lease from the Army >Corps of Engineers to manage the 64-acre Canyon Lake Gorge site, will >begin offering limited public tours of the canyon Saturday, continuing >year-round on the first Saturday of the month. > >Early demand for the 3-hour tours is so high they are booked for at >least six months. Rhoad said the authority hopes to train more docents >so dates can be added. > > >"Docent"? In the US the usual term is "tour guide". > >OT: Headline of the week: Lindsay Lohan Says Rehab "Sobering" > >OT: I think I can claim the local record for Google Books misdating. >Google Books claimed a date of 1761 for a paper which turned out to have >been published in 1972. > >What apparently happened is that Google Books takes the first four-digit >number it finds on a journal and assumes that is the date. >Unfortunately many journals have their founding date, rather than the >issue date, on their front cover. In this case the journal was founded >in 1761 and the article was in a 1972 issue. Similarly many colleges >put their founding date on the front cover of their publications, e.g. >Google Books is convinced every catalogue ever issued by Mount Holyoke >College is dated 1838. > >You have to give Google Books credit for trying on that 1761 date. The >journal was in Norwegian. > >James A. Landau >Test Engineer >Northrop-Grumman Information Technology >8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 >West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA >~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >AMFCX WNAGG JAEJT CMBTC RLJYA MUAOV FQRPK ES >^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ >PS: I have to vote for Obama now. He promised the 57th Street Bookstore >in Chicago (near where he lives) that he would buy a copy of Harry >Potter and the Deathly Hallows from them. Come the release date and he >was out of town, but he had a staffer go to the 57th Street Bookstore >and make the promised purchase. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 21:38:41 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:38:41 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101957.l9AAmZmZ005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As teenagers in Saint Louis, we used to use rhotic "feller" and "yeller" as joking pronunciations mocking "hill-billy" talk," just because we could. We had no contact at all with "hill-biliies," except on the radio and in the movies, (anybody else remember, e.g., Maw & Paw Kettle or Judy Canova and her rhotic feller, Lukey [liukI], who "shore did love at-air gal"?) and had no reason to mock them. Down home in Texas, "windih" [wIndI] was the usual BE pronunciation of "window"; in Saint Louis, it was "winduh" [wind@]. When a map showed me that the Poconos are part of the Appalachians, I started jokingly referring to my wife's PA hometown as being located in the rhotic "holler." -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 3:49 PM -0400 10/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >As someone dwelling in Old Yeller country, I would assume that the > >"-er" spelling at the end of "yeller" (as well as in friendly or > >affectionate "feller") usually indicates /@/. Which is not to say > >that [r] doesn't intrude sometimes, but perhaps less frequently than > >in "r-less" dialects of the northeastern US (JFK's nemesis "Cuber")? > > > >--Charlie > > Oh right, "feller". Also "holler" ('declivity'), "winder", and > "tater". I see now that there's a "regional note" under "holler" in > the AHD4 , but it indicates all these are indeed pronounced > rhotically in the relevant (Appalachian) area, which is, of course, a > rhotic area. So I'm a bit confused still. Are there two different > processes involved, which overlap and clash? > > LH > > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > > > >> > >>Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, > >>that "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old > >>Yeller" (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final > >>/@/ rather than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation > >>is essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >> > >>LH > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Wed Oct 10 21:45:25 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:45:25 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710101949.l9AHwpvN003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have noted in recent years the semantic change in gentleman: most notably is its use by the police to describe a murderous rapist or other felon, e.g., "We arrested the gentleman as he was about to attack a woman in the entryway." I call your attention to it because I took particular exception to such usage that occurred the other day, on the TV news, when the chief archivist of the National Holocaust Museum, in looking over some photos in an album kept by an officer at Auschwitz, referred to one individual as "this gentleman": it was Dr. Mengele. Perhaps we shall soon be hearing about "that sweetie, Adolf Hitler," "dear old Heinrich Himmler," and other monsters of the Third Reich. I sent the Museum an email expressing my strong objection to this semantic warping and the head of the Eastern Region phoned me today. One might think she'd apologize, but instead she made it clear that while she agreed with my criticism of the distortion, she was not apologizing because the quotation had not come from her lips. The (youngish) woman who had uttered the word did not mean anything evil or inconsiderate, and my point is to show how language change can bring about offensive usage that ought to be noted, commented on, and not tolerated. So much for being an academically cool observer of the passing linguistic scene. L. Urdang P.S. Let us not labor the point any further with a barrage of emails either in criticism or in support. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 10 22:28:08 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:28:08 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710101909.l9AFpmcZ005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert /r/ a la Britspeak. FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" (Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, "light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as "night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? -Wilson -Wilson On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. > >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, > >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > > > >-Wilson > > Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that > "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" > (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather > than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is > essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > > LH > > > > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > >> used to represent [@:]). > >> > > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > >> > >> > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> > Wilson, > >> > > >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> > both). > >> > > >> > dInIs > > >> > > >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> > >----------------------- > >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> > > > >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> > > > >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home > >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from > >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> > > > >> > >-Wilson > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> > >>----------------------- > >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >> > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > > >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> > >> > >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> > >> > >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy, > >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >-- > >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> > >----- > >> > > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > >> > > > >> > -- > >> > Dennis R. Preston > >> > University Distinguished Professor > >> > Department of English > >> > 15C Morrill Hall > >> > Michigan State University > >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> > 517-353-4736 > >> > preston at msu.edu > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Wed Oct 10 22:43:02 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:43:02 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710102228.l9AJd4Pl005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk) in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s. I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was "revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered. Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it. dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert >/r/ a la Britspeak. > >FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever >race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any >evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in >the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" >(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, >"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of >a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred >to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people >refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as >"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." > >I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los >Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and >one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, >darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, >of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. >Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as >we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain >down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? > >-Wilson > >-Wilson >On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. >> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, >> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that >> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" >> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather >> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is >> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about >> >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically >> >> used to represent [@:]). >> >> >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >> >> > Wilson, >> >> > >> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't >> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er >> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality >> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or >> >> > both). >> >> > >> >> > dInIs >> >> >> > >> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >> > >----------------------- >> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray >> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> >>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > >> >> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's >> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." >> >> > > >> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. >> >> > > >> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I >> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare >> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine >>from down home >> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd >>speaker/singer from >> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use >> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" >> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` >> >> > > >> >> > >-Wilson >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >> > >>----------------------- >> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say >>that, hits 'Katy, >> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: >> >> > >> >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, >>hits 'Katy, >> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> > >> >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >-- >> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange >>complaint to >> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> > >----- >> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> > Dennis R. Preston >> >> > University Distinguished Professor >> >> > Department of English >> >> > 15C Morrill Hall >> >> > Michigan State University >> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 >> >> > 517-353-4736 >> >> > preston at msu.edu >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 00:52:34 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 20:52:34 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710101951.l9AAmZm7005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, David Bergdahl wrote: > > Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means > "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find > increasingly rare. I think "positive anymore" is driving "negative any > more" out of existence. Or, at least that's what it seems in Athens, which > one daughter once claimed was situated "between Appalachia and the Midwest." On the page below you'll find a chart comparing US/UK usage of open vs. closed "any( )more", along with "some( )day", "under( )way", "some( )time", etc., as reflected by the Oxford English Corpus: http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/oec03/ Obviously this doesn't distinguish the various possible contexts where "any( )more" can appear, but I think the US predilection for the closed form is too large to be ascribed simply to "positive anymore" usage (though that no doubt plays a contributing role). --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 01:17:19 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:17:19 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710101528w162b3563k8f84af57e3ed1aa8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray asks > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > the past? This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith sings "I aint no high yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I remember it, and not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see that the transcription of the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't where it should be. A crisis I will deal with another time. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 01:36:49 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:36:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710110117.l9AKvIBv005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/10/07, George Thompson wrote: > > Wilson Gray asks > > > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > > the past? > > This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith sings "I aint no high > yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I remember it, and > not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) > > Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see that the transcription of > the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. > The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't where it should be. A crisis > I will deal with another time. I have that song on "The Complete Recordings, Vol. 3", where the songwriting credit is given to Bessie Smith herself. Confirmed here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html FWIW, Michael Taft's concordance of pre-war blues lyrics gives the line as "I ain't no high yellow : I'm a *deep killer* brown". I'm guessing the use of asterisks around "deep killer" indicates a disputed transcription, though "deep killer" sounds plausible to me from a quick listen. See: , where one can also find various other "high yellow"s in the concordance. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 02:34:23 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:34:23 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710102145.l9AJd4I9005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. Has anyone here done a study on ratio of negative to positive uses of politeness forms? I'm sure there's something out there, but I'm not up to looking it up tonight... I wonder whether we're not on the way to a majority use of politeness forms for negative connotations. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 11 02:49:09 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:49:09 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics literature. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Oct 11 02:49:00 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:49:00 -0500 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) Message-ID: I used to hear it in Decatur, IL, in the 60s and 70s. Probably only from whites, though. A significant part of Decatur's black population had migrated from Tennessee (Brownsville is a town name I remember) to work in factories and foundries. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in the past? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 02:50:03 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:50:03 -0400 Subject: about we Message-ID: Just heard from Dalton McGuinty, in his reelection victory speech (premier of Ontario): "They're about we. We Ontarians." James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 03:07:04 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:07:04 -0400 Subject: delicatessen Message-ID: I turned up the item below while reading the [New York] Sun the other day. . . . the "delicatessen" at 177 Bowery. . . . The Sun, October 25, 1879, p. 1, col. 3 The earliest entry in OED is 1889, except for an occurrence that it supposes to be unassimilated German. Delicacies or relishes for the table; esp. attrib., in delicatessen shop, store. b. ellipt. A delicatessen shop. [1877 E. S. DALLAS Kettner's Bk. of Table 399 A house which abounds in foreign dainties of all sorts{em}Lingner's Delicatessen Handlung, 46, Old Compton Street, Soho.] 1889 Kansas Times & Star 7 Nov., Burglars broke into Blake's delicatessen store..and..made an awful mess of the juicy stuff, canned and bottled. 1893 Harper's Mag. Apr. 660 They [sc. Germans in New York] maintain..their delicatessen shops and pork butchers. *** Checking various Proquest files, I find: . . . sausages, sauerkraut and other delicatessen. . . . New York Times, March 27, 1875. p. 3 A liberal rule for calculation in laying in supplies at Quebec is to allow thirty cents for each ration, on the basis of two served to every man of the party each day for ordinary stores, . . . and for what the Germans call delicatessen. . . . Scribner's Monthly, May 1877. Vol. XIV., Iss. No. 1.; p. 46?[the last page of the article] 1884: European Hotel, Restaurant, and Delicatessen. [in St. Louis] Colman's Rural World, March 20, 1884. Vol. 37, Iss. 12; p. 96 So the Sun's passage is the earliest in the sense of a shop, and the 1875 & 1877 citations antedate the sense of a comestible. The Proquest databases offer 2 other citations that are still earlies, but the first is the name of a shop in Germany and the second is unassimilated German. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Oct 11 03:17:00 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:17:00 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks. I thought that that would be the case, but I wanted to be sure that it was by a native speaker of BE. ""deep killer" was one of the transcriptions I saw by Google. I've always heard "'ticular" (not, actually, "particular",) but I wouldn't go to the stake maintaining that as the truth. My daughter, Elizabeth Sarah, is named in honor of Bessie Smith. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Benjamin Zimmer Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 10:01 pm Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > On 10/10/07, George Thompson wrote: > > > > Wilson Gray asks > > > > > > FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > > > race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > > > evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even > in > > > the past? > > > > This may not meet the "in the wild" requirement, but Bessie Smith > sings "I aint no high > > yellow, I'm a most particular brown" in Young Woman Blues. (As I > remember it, and > > not attempting to capture her pronunciation.) > > > > Hunting in Google for the lyricist of this song, (if known), I see > that the transcription of > > the words I hear as "most particular" varies greatly. > > The CD of her complete works that would give the lyricist isn't > where it should be. A crisis > > I will deal with another time. > > I have that song on "The Complete Recordings, Vol. 3", where the > songwriting credit is given to Bessie Smith herself. Confirmed here: > > http://www.redhotjazz.com/bessie.html > > FWIW, Michael Taft's concordance of pre-war blues lyrics gives the > line as "I ain't no high yellow : I'm a *deep killer* brown". I'm > guessing the use of asterisks around "deep killer" indicates a > disputed transcription, though "deep killer" sounds plausible to me > from a quick listen. > > See: <, where one can also find various > other "high yellow"s in the concordance. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Thu Oct 11 05:46:38 2007 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:46:38 +0800 Subject: Heel or Boot (end slice of bread); NewspaperArchive not updating? In-Reply-To: <200709230609.l8MAlhL3027659@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hey Barry -- > HEEL OR BOOT > ... > Does anyone (from Texas) have an opinion on "heel" or "boot" for the > end slice of a loaf of bread? Always heel in our fam...folks from the mid-west, I grew up in southern California. Never heard boot being used for the end slice of a loaf of bread. -r ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 06:08:43 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 02:08:43 -0400 Subject: Vick 'em / Gig 'em Message-ID: ----- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300616,00.html LUBBOCK, Texas ? Texas Tech has banned the sale of a T-shirt bearing the likeness of Michael Vick hanging the dog mascot of rival Texas A&M. The red and black shirts, with text that says "VICK 'EM" on the front in an apparent reference to the Aggies' slogan "Gig 'em," was created by a Tech student who was trying to sell them before Saturday's game in Lubbock. The back of the shirt shows a football player wearing the No. 7 Vick jersey holding a rope with an image of the mascot Reveille at the end of a noose. Vick, who faces up to five years in prison after pleading guilty to a federal dogfighting charge, is suspended indefinitely by the NFL. [etc.] ----- Barry's already covered "Gig 'em": http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/gig_em_aggies/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 08:02:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:02:34 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) Message-ID: O.T.: GET GRASS, LOSE ALL COMMUNICATION. Two days ago, I lost my entire Time Warner triple play (internet, cable, phone). I was told to wait at home from 8 a.m. until midnight. The guy finally came at 4 p.m. and fixed the thing into two minutes. ... We put in new grass at the house, and the men adjusted the sprinkler system. Apparently, the guys cut the cable line to the house next to me. They waited three days for Time Warner to arrive (it happened Friday afternoon). When Time Warner re-connected the house next door on Monday, it disconnected my house. Time Warner really sucks...Man, it was all because of the grass. ... O.T.: AOL-ELLEN DEGENERES AOL is running something with Ellen DeGeneres about why she should come visit your town. A featured question is about the "Windy City." Then local drinks are explained, like "Long Island Iced Tea." In the AOL quiz today (http://ellen.aol.com/editorial/the+surprising+state+trivia+quiz), it's said that "iced tea" comes from Missouri. Iced tea was invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, dontcha know. I really must kill myself. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ STEAK FINGERS ... "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. It seems to be a regional dish, starting at West Texas drive-ins in the 1950s. Buddy;s Drive In at Andrews, TX is most famous for it today. It should be in a Texas Food Museum that I'd really like to get off the ground, at least on the web. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/steak_fingers/ ... Entry from October 11, 2007 Steak Fingers (Steakfingers) "Steak fingers" (breaded beef strips) became popular snacks at West Texas drive-ins in the 1950s and 1960s. Buddy's Drive In (Andrews, TX) began in 1969 and claims to be "Steakfinger Headquarters," but it did not invent "steak fingers." Dairy Queen has had "steak fingers" on its menu since at least 1966. Buddy's Drive In The words Steakfinger Headquarters are painted in blue letters on the side of the little white building with the carport out front at 106 East Broadway (432-523-2840). And that's no lie. Eating steak fingers at Buddy's is a religious experience, though not a weight loss program. The order is enormous, and it costs just $4.95. The pile of tender, tasty steak fingers probably stands half a foot high. Steak fingers, in case you didn't know, are breaded strips of beef. I should also mention that the steak fingers come with a bowl of creamy gravy for dipping. Very few people can finish an order all by themselves, said Marion Chapman, a waitress here for twenty- five years, so many people share. "This one man, he had never ordered steak fingers. 'Oh ma'am, I didn't know you were going to bring the last supper.' " Buddy's has been around since 1969. Yes there is a Buddy, though he doesn't run the place. The owners are Minnie Coleman and Floy Robertson. Buddy is Minnie's husband. "We just decided to name it after him," Floy said. "We thrashed that around for about a month. Finally, we came up with his name." When someone dies in Andrews, Buddy's sends the grieving family large roasting pans of steak fingers to help them through their loss. "And the gravy that goes with it," Floy said. "That's better than flowers. That's all we can give." Imitation being the purest form of flattery, Buddy's name has popped up in other places. "There are some places in Houston that have signs that say they have steak fingers like Buddy's in Andrews, Texas," Floy said. "There's a restaurant in New York that has the same thing inside. A guy from Odessa said he and his wife were visiting in downtown New York, and the first thing they saw was a sign that said they had steak fingers like Andrews, Texas." Maybe so, but a pile of steak fingers like they serve at Buddy's would cost you about $99 in New York City. South Texas Dairy Queen Menu Steak Finger Country Basket It's a Texas original that has made Texas Dairy Queen stores famous for almost 50 years! Juicy steak fingers, crisp French fries, Texas toast, and creamy country gravy make the Steak Finger Country Basket* a great meal for lunch or dinner. Have a four-piece Basket, or if you're really hungry, go for a 6-piece Country Basket*. Some Texas stores also offer an 8-piece Country Basket*. All Recipes Steak Fingers SUBMITTED BY: Rita Fay "Easy to make and a favorite of my family. Excellent with french fries and a salad!!" INGREDIENTS 1/3 cup vegetable oil 1 pound round steak 2 eggs 1/2 cup milk salt and pepper to taste 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour for coating DIRECTIONS Tenderize steak by pounding with a mallet. Cut into 3 inch long strips. Combine egg, milk, salt and pepper in a shallow dish, whisk until well blended. In a large skillet over medium heat, heat 1/3 cup oil (or just enough to cover the bottom of the pan). Coat steak pieces in flour. Shake off excess. Then dip in the egg mixture and again in flour. Fry the strips in the hot oil until golden brown; about 2 minutes. Transfer to a plate lined with paper towels to absorb oil. Cooks.com STEAK FINGERS Round steak, sprinkle with meat tenderizer and let stand 1 hour. Cut into bite size or finger size pieces. Combine and dip meat pieces in 2 eggs, milk, Worcestershire sauce then roll in flour, then deep fry. 3 September 1934, San Antonio (TX) Express, pg. 5, col. 3: Buns, butter, barbecue sauce, individual steak fingers, corn on the cob, coffee, watermelon made up the menu. 7 November 1951, Big Spring (TX) Daily Herald, pg.9 9, col. 3 ad: Chicken in the Basket Chicken in the Box Steak Fingers in the Basket EVERYBODY'S DRIVE INN 30 December 1952, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Steak Fingers in Basket...65c CLOCK DRIVE-INS 5 November 1953, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 2A, col. 5 ad: Take Home Specials All Served in Baskets with Plenty of French Fries: Steak Fingers Chicken Shrimp CASEY'S RESTAURANTS 11 November 1953, Dallas (TX) Morning News, Julie Benell's Recipe, part 2, pg. 1: FINGER STEAK SANDWICHES For easy eating prepare steak finger sandwiches from a steak that is one and one-half inches thick. Brush it on both sides with garlic butter and broil or grill over hot coals, turning several times and brushing with garlic butter each time. When the steak reaches the desired stage of "doneness"cut in half-inch strips, place each strip in a hot frankfurter roll and serve. 23 June 1954, Ada (OK) Evening News, pg. 10, col. 2 ad: JIM'S DRIVE-IN Our Menu Features: Charcoal Broiled Hamburgers Fish and Chips Steak Fingers Shrimp Sandwiches 24 September 1955, El Paso (TX) Prospector, pg. 7, col. 2 ad: FIESTA DRIVE-IN THEATRE Have You Seen Our New Cinebar? Serving only the Finest in Foods, Southern Fried Chicken, Steak FIngers & Jumbo Shrimp, all served with French Fries & Hot Rolls. 4 May 1957, Tucson (AZ) Daily Citizen, pg. 10, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers French Fries, Garlic Toast, Boxed To Go! 95c LUCKY WISHBONE 2 July 1957, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Fiesta Drive In Theatre Fiesta Snack Bar Features: Southern Fried Chicken, Tasty Steak Fingers, Fried Jumbo Shrimp, all served with Golden Brown French Fries, Hot Buttered Rolls, and a Donut. 19 February 1959, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. 40, col. 3 ad: CLOCK Drive-Ins STEAK FINGERS Breaded Golden Brown Steak Strips, French Fries, Toasted Buttered Rolls 65c 31 March 1959, Tucson (AZ) Daily Citizen, pg. 17, col. 5: Steak Fingers...95c Chicken Carousel 1 July 1960, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Recipes of the Day" by Julie Benell, section 3, pg. 4: STEAK FINGER SANDWICHES Have your meat man cut filets or strips at least 1 1/2 inches thick. Brush the meat on both sides with garlic butter and broil over the charcoal or in the oven. When done, cut in half-inch strips, place one or two strips on a hot frankfurter roll or a hamburger bun, and serve plain or with a spicy barbecue sauce. 17 October 1961, Amarillo (TX) Globe-Times, pg. 12, col. 2 ad: Steak Fingers for 75c 4 steak fingers with Hidy fries, heart of lettuce with dressing, buttered sesame seed bun, drink and dessert. HI-D-HO 30 October 1964, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 12A, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers 73c Kims 13 April 1966, Hobbs (NM) Daily News-Sun, pg. 6, col. 7 ad: Steak Fingers and Shrimp Also Served in the Box. DAIRY QUEEN 30 September 1966, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 11C, col. 1 ad: Steak Fingers in a basket 69c DAIRY QUEEN 22 January 1969, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section A, pg. 13 ad: Steak Finger Patties Winkin Chef Breaded? LB. 89c 12 June 1969, Dallas (TX) Morning News section E, pg. 17 ad: Gooch - All Meat Steak Fingers 12-oz. pkg. 79c 29 December 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section C, pg. 11 ad: DAIRY QUEEN Steak Finger Basket Sale only 79c Enjoy a delicious Steak Finger Basket. Special sale Price, only 79c!! That's Golden, Scrumptious Steakfingers, Crispy Fries, Texas Toast and Real Country Gravy. Google Books Plowboys, Cowboys, and Slanted Pigs by Jerry Flemmons Fort Worth, TX: TCU Press 1984 Pg. 104: For the record, Texas also invented the ice cream sundae, the Margarita, frozen steak fingers, corn chips, stadium nachos and the Marpeani, which is a regular martini except that the olive is replaced by a blackeyed pea. Google Books Texasville a novel by Larry McMurtry New York, NY: Simon and Schuster 1987 Pg. 162: The twins were slurping malts and foraging at will from a heap of cheeseburgers, French fries, nachos, steak fingers, tacos, and other delicacies. Google Books Amarillo by Morning by Bay Matthews New York, NY: Silhouette Books 1988 Pg. 136: Russ smiled. "If you disregard Dairy Queen's steak fingers, they have the only chicken-fried steak in town." Google Books The $100 Hamburger: A Guide to Pilots' Favorite Fly-In Restaurants by John F. Purner New York, NY: McGraw-Hill 1998 Pg. 282: Andrews, TX Buddy's Drive Inn If you like REAL steak fingers, go to Buddy's Drive Inn. The steak fingers are sliced from round steak fillets and deep fried to a golden brown. The portions are huge, you WON'T go away hungry. The price is about $6 per parson, and they have doggie bags on hand. Google Books Texas Road Trip by Bryan Woolley Fort Worth, TX: TCU Press 2004 Pg. 21: They go for the box dinners of chicken strips, steak fingers, fried cod, or shrimp, served with fries, a corn fritter, toast, and a pickle. (Sky-Vue Drive-In in Lamesa?ed.) MyWestTexas.com Buddy's to serve up steak fingers again 08/30/2005 By Ruth Campbell Staff Writer Midland Reporter-Telegram ANDREWS?Buddy's Drive-In, temporarily closed five months ago, reopens Wednesday with new but familiar owners. Kelsey Robertson, grandson of Floy Robertson who co-founded the restaurant with Minnie Coleman, and Mary Anderson, a former waitress, have assumed ownership. The restaurant, at 106 E. Broadway in Andrews, is named after "buddies" Robertson and Coleman. "My grandmother was one of the original owners of the restaurant. I'm pretty much opening it as a tribute to her and her partner," said Robertson, who grew up at the eatery and is the nephew of former co-owner Bonnie Duncan. "It's something I always wanted to do. I feel like I need to do it for my grandmother. We've got a lot of restaurants here in town serving steak fingers, but nothing compares to what we've got," he added. Robertson said he, friends, family and former employees spent about two weeks cleaning and remodeling Buddy's for its re-opening. The eatery will have about 10 employees and feature the same steak fingers that made it famous. "We're hoping to put it back to the style of steak fingers my mother and Minnie started with," Robertson said. (...) The Andrews Chamber of Commerce constantly gets calls about the eatery's steak fingers. Google Books Identity Envy: Wanting to Be Who We're Not Creative Nonfiction by Queer Writers edited by Jim Tushinski and Jim Can Buskirk Binghamton, NY: Harrington Park Press 2007 Pg. 25: In Europe, I dream of Texas. (...) I do not dream of fried rabbit with calf brains, roasted cingale, or petite, discrete, and oh-so-chic gelato. My slumber binges center on Tex-Mex victuals, and I do not mean the anemic concoctions of California, New Mexico, or Oregon. I crave the real grub of carne guisada, pico de gallo, and chili con carne. On the pure Tex side: steak, steak fingers, and chicken-fried steak. Texas toast and endless iced tea. Frito Pie and Snickers Bar Cake. Dripping saved for gravy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Thu Oct 11 10:04:39 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:04:39 -0400 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: > At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >> Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >> their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >> similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >> as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >> deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >> what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >> negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >> diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > > And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or > pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics > literature. I have certainly heard the word 'gentleman' used ironically by police officers and others to mean someone really bad--my sense is that they are well aware of the ironic use they are making of it. Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Thu Oct 11 11:20:20 2007 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:20:20 +0100 Subject: Wenis Message-ID: Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words E-mail: wordseditor at worldwidewords.org Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 11 12:30:28 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:30:28 -0400 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: It's my sense that the quoted use of "gentleman" was not intended deprecatorily or ironically--just neutrally generic: 'adult male'. You know, the kind of person who uses a public restroom marked "Gentlemen," where admittance requires no social-class or moral credentials. That's a different issue, of course, from how designations like "gentleman" and "lady" AFFECT those in whose presence the words are used. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:49:09 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: gentleman >> >At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >>Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > >And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics literature. > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Thu Oct 11 13:35:57 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:35:57 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111004.l9AKvIav005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these glasses into the dishwasher." It is refreshing to see a lively, intelligent, well-informed discussion of language matters on this exchange, but it is increasingly salted with the patronizing comments and quasi-learned discourses on a subject that, perhaps properly, is not felt to beyond the calling of anybody who can read and write. For those who might have missed it, there is an article or two in the current issue of Nature revealing that what we call strong verbs (that is, those that change their form to make a past, like take, took, run, ran) vs. those we call weak verbs (those that simply add a dental or alveolar ending, like book, booked, ban, banned) are slowly changing into weak verbs because of "pressure" exerting by the weak and are not changing faster only because of their great frequency in the language. I hope they don't start giving out Nobel prizes for that sort of linguistic insight, but it is another good example of the low level of scholarship that has pervaded even professional linguistics. I am no longer struck by the lack of originality characterizing the topics accepted for doctoral dissertations in linguistics, one that I had previously thought was reserved for dissertations on English literature (where I once found seven, almost identical, on Monk Lewis in the library at Butler Library at Columbia alone). Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the game. The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. L. Urdang Old Lyme ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:07:00 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:07:00 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710102145.l9AJd4I9005628@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can't say how long since I began to notice this use of "gentleman," but it's been a while. Isn't the (ultimate) source of the problem a vague feeling that "man" must be avoided? (Note too that "gentleman" contains more syllables.) Cf. the nearly universal TV talk-show practice of avoiding "boy" and "girl" unless the child is obviously a tiny infant. "Young man" or "young woman" is almost always substituted. JL Laurence Urdang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Urdang Subject: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have noted in recent years the semantic change in gentleman: most notably is its use by the police to describe a murderous rapist or other felon, e.g., "We arrested the gentleman as he was about to attack a woman in the entryway." I call your attention to it because I took particular exception to such usage that occurred the other day, on the TV news, when the chief archivist of the National Holocaust Museum, in looking over some photos in an album kept by an officer at Auschwitz, referred to one individual as "this gentleman": it was Dr. Mengele. Perhaps we shall soon be hearing about "that sweetie, Adolf Hitler," "dear old Heinrich Himmler," and other monsters of the Third Reich. I sent the Museum an email expressing my strong objection to this semantic warping and the head of the Eastern Region phoned me today. One might think she'd apologize, but instead she made it clear that while she agreed with my criticism of the distortion, she was not apologizing because the quotation had not come from her lips. The (youngish) woman who had uttered the word did not mean anything evil or inconsiderate, and my point is to show how language change can bring about offensive usage that ought to be noted, commented on, and not tolerated. So much for being an academically cool observer of the passing linguistic scene. L. Urdang P.S. Let us not labor the point any further with a barrage of emails either in criticism or in support. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:17:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:17:59 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111004.l9AKvIav005710@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geoff, my impression is that - whatever they're thinking - the usage of cops on the evening news almost always comes across as bland and matter-of-fact. I'm now receiving a vague signal from an admittedly impaired memory cell that some time during the '70s police nationwide were encouraged always to address citizens and "Sir" or "Ma'am," particularly when they were about to arrest them. The idea was that being respectful tends to make even some thugs a little more cooperative. Also, they're innocent till proven otherwise. The practice was also intended to help police remember that they shouldn't shove people around without a good reason. JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > At 10:34 PM -0400 10/10/07, James Harbeck wrote: >> Well, given that many children eventually learn that "please" means >> their parent is upset or impatient, I think the similar use of >> similarly polite "gentleman" to express something deprecatory is not >> as surprising as it might be. I've certainly heard "gentlemen with >> deep suntans" a few times, for instance, and I'm sure you can guess >> what that meant; I have heard various politeness forms used with >> negative connotations quite a few times, though I admit I was not >> diligent enough to keep track of what percentage of the time. > > And it would be only fair, given the long history of demeaning or > pejorative uses of "lady", as documented in the feminist linguistics > literature. I have certainly heard the word 'gentleman' used ironically by police officers and others to mean someone really bad--my sense is that they are well aware of the ironic use they are making of it. Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 11 14:29:26 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:29:26 -0700 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111336.l9BAkJqU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This was pretty original: "Juan Manuel Toro, Josep B Trobalon and Nuria Sebastian-Galles of the Universitat de Barcelona, won the Linguistics award for showing that rats sometimes cannot tell the difference between a person speaking Japanese backwards and a person speaking Dutch backwards." But this was just an "Ig Nobel" Prize. So far. JL Laurence Urdang wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Laurence Urdang Subject: Re: gentleman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these glasses into the dishwasher." It is refreshing to see a lively, intelligent, well-informed discussion of language matters on this exchange, but it is increasingly salted with the patronizing comments and quasi-learned discourses on a subject that, perhaps properly, is not felt to beyond the calling of anybody who can read and write. For those who might have missed it, there is an article or two in the current issue of Nature revealing that what we call strong verbs (that is, those that change their form to make a past, like take, took, run, ran) vs. those we call weak verbs (those that simply add a dental or alveolar ending, like book, booked, ban, banned) are slowly changing into weak verbs because of "pressure" exerting by the weak and are not changing faster only because of their great frequency in the language. I hope they don't start giving out Nobel prizes for that sort of linguistic insight, but it is another good example of the low level of scholarship that has pervaded even professional linguistics. I am no longer struck by the lack of originality characterizing the topics accepted for doctoral dissertations in linguistics, one that I had previously thought was reserved for dissertations on English literature (where I once found seven, almost identical, on Monk Lewis in the library at Butler Library at Columbia alone). Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the game. The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. L. Urdang Old Lyme ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Oct 11 14:46:24 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:46:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Hyphens: Death-Knell. Or Death Knell (NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710110402.l9B1MfjX003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: David Bergdahl > Anymore, I notice "any more" written as a single word when it means > "nowadays" but two words when it means "no longer," a use I find > increasingly rare... That's it! That explains the differences (which i've thought of as bizarre) that sometimes "I don't do that anymore" feels better than "I don't do that any more", and sometimes the other way around. -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Oct 11 14:50:27 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:50:27 -0500 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710110802.l9ALPPVM003091@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > STEAK FINGERS > ... > "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see 14b). 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Athen?um No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:13:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:13:35 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710102243.l9AHwpM1003053@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know what to tell you, dInIs. The use of bright(-skinned) goes all the way back to my grandparents, at least, all of whom were born in the 19th Century, it goes without saying. (FWIW, I read in a ghost story called "The Duppy," back in the 'Fiddies, that "bright-skinned" was a Caribbeanism, But, I've known only a single West Indian in my entire life and the subject never came up.) (BTW, there were some so-called "Black Caribs" from Belize at the Michigan LSA in '73. I don't know whether they count as "West Indians" in the ordinary sense of the term.) I personally have never actually used or heard other than "light-skin," light-skinned," and "light-skinded" among my friends. As I've said, I know "high-yellow" only from reading. Maybe enough colored read, nowadays, for the term to have become commonly used. A lot can change in fiddy years. For example, fiddy years ago, "fifty" was pronounced "fit-tih" [fIttI] Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," replied that his stage name represents change. -Wilson On 10/10/07, Dennis Preston wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dennis Preston > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk) > in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s. > I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was > "revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered. > Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited > encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it. > > dInIs > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >----------------------- > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert > >/r/ a la Britspeak. > > > >FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever > >race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any > >evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in > >the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright" > >(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis, > >"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of > >a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred > >to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people > >refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as > >"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team." > > > >I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los > >Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and > >one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person, > >darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV, > >of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool. > >Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as > >we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain > >down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do? > > > >-Wilson > > > >-Wilson > >On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers. > >> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do, > >> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-) > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > >> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that > >> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller" > >> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather > >> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is > >> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")? > >> > >> LH > >> > >> > > >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >>----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about > >> >> orthographic in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically > >> >> used to represent [@:]). > >> >> > >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> >> > Wilson, > >> >> > > >> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic > > > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't > >> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er > >> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother" > > > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality > >> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or > >> >> > both). > >> >> > > >> >> > dInIs > >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >> > >----------------------- > >> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray > >> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's > >> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it." > >> >> > > > >> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE. > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I > >> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare > >> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine > >>from down home > >> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd > >>speaker/singer from > >> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use > >> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r" > >> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.` > >> >> > > > >> >> > >-Wilson > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> >> > >>----------------------- > >> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say > >>that, hits 'Katy, > >> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831] > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there: > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, > >>hits 'Katy, > >> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > >> >> > >-- > >> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange > >>complaint to > >> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >> > >----- > >> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens > >> >> > > > >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Dennis R. Preston > >> >> > University Distinguished Professor > >> >> > Department of English > >> >> > 15C Morrill Hall > >> >> > Michigan State University > >> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824 > >> >> > 517-353-4736 > >> >> > preston at msu.edu > >> >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > University Distinguished Professor > Department of English > Morrill Hall 15-C > Michigan State University > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 15:35:30 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:35:30 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710111513.l9BF2lMk005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, > when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," > replied that his stage name represents change. Well, that's more pleasant than his other explanation, which is that it's an homage to the notorious triggerman Kelvin "50 Cent" Martin... ----- http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=1112 Nobody, including family and friends, seems to know exactly how Martin acquired the name 50 Cent. Some say he earned it in a dice game, after he walked away with a cool $500 after an initial wager of 50 cents. Others suspect it was because of his five-foot-three, 120-pound frame. "He was a short guy," says 50's former criminal cohort One Arm Monk, who fenced all the bling 50 stole. "He was little." [...] The pitiless mastermind of countless homicides, 50 Cent's reputation far outweighed the money he made, and his legacy lives on through folklore as well as through the music and imagery of Curtis "50 Cent" Jackson. "I took the name 50 Cent because it says everything I want it to say. I'm the same kind of person 50 Cent was. I provide for myself by any means," says Jackson. ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:50:17 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:50:17 EDT Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: In a message dated 10/11/2007 10:50:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL writes: Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see 14b). 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Athen?um No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? ... ... Yes, it is true that there are many foods that are called "fingers." But "steak fingers" are more than merely "short and narrow pieces" of steak. They are breaded and deep-fried. ... For example, OED (Second Edition, 1989) has this in its "steak" entry: "attrib. and Comb., as steak dinner, -meat, pie, piece, pudding, sandwich;" ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 11 15:51:46 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:51:46 +0000 Subject: gentleman Message-ID: I have often heard young people refer to a person who is a good deal older than the speaker (and, usually, the hearer) as "an older gentleman." The use of "gentleman" rather than "guy" or simply man has always struck me as somewhat patronizing but not ironic. The usage is particularly common (imho) among folks who are describing the sexual (or even just social) advances of an older man who is respectable but no longer young enough to seem sexually attractive to the speaker. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 16:26:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:26:32 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Some Google numbers: ... STEAK FINGERS--20,500 Google hits STEAKFINGERS--1,080 Google hits CHICKEN FRIED STEAK FINGERS--2,770 Google hits ... Below is a nice interview about "chicken-fried steak" and "steak fingers" in West Texas. (It's easier to read at the site, where the questions are in bold.) ... Again, OED and DARE do not pay me. If OED wants to say "we'll disregard those 20,000 steak fingers hits," and if DARE wants to ignore West Texas food, those are decisions for them to make. ... ... ... http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/library/JonesInterview.htm How Chicken-Fried Steak Got Its Name Virginia Jones Birth: November 28, 1940 "Texas People Have Such a Love Affair" Note: This interview with Virginia Jones from the Cactus Cafe in West Texas was done at the 13th Texas Folklife Festival in 1984. The principal reason that I've got you here, Virginia, is because I want to know about chicken-fried steak. Are you coming from the Cactus Cafe? Yes, ma'am. And how did you happen to call it that? And how do you happen to be here? The Cactus Cafe got its name from a singer who is from Colorado City, whose name is Jay Boy Adams. He recorded a song about a Cactus Cafe that actually existed at one time in Colorado City. The song was about this old cowboy that would go in and drink coffee early in the morning and tell cowboy stories. And so we took the name "The Cactus Cafe" and actually even brought the original sign up at one time. It is just an old tin sign. Actually, the Cactus Cafe-that's not an uncommon name for a restaurant in West Texas. Uh-huh. I'm sure it isn't. Tell me how-what's the singer's name? Jay Boy Adams. Is it B-0-Y? Yes, it's like John Boy, after his father; this is Jay Boy, after his father. Texas people have such a love affair with chicken-fried steak. Everybody has favorite cafes and favorite recipes and whatnot. Have you any idea where all this started? Where is chicken-fried steak coming from? And what, in your opinion, is the right way to make it? My husband thinks that possibly it came from the wiener schnitzel in Germany, because German people did come and settle in Southwest Texas. He thinks that probably-and further west, where beef is so popular-that they just kind of devised a recipe for themselves. We make our chicken-fried steak pretty much the way I make it at home, and that is, we get regular round steak, and we have it only tenderized one time so that it will hold together. We cut it ourselves, cut the cutlets into steak fingers, put it in a mixture of flour, salt, pepper, and tenderizer. Then, in a mixture of eggs and milk, kind of let it drip out, and then back into another mixture of flour, salt, and pepper. And then we quick-freeze them to bring them to the Folklife Festival. You make them into fingers. That's not normal in a caf?, is it? Or in a restaurant? Or in a home? In West Texas, steak fingers are very popular. Except, usually, if you order them out, you will get what we call pre-fab meat that has the soybeans and is preformed. Ours is not. Ours is actually cut from the beef. You said flour and salt and pepper. Is there any-there's no hot stuff-no chili-no picante? No, nothing. You fry it? Yes. What do you fry it in? We fry them in just deep fryers. Yes, in deep fat. The way to fry chicken-fried steak is to fry it quickly, where it will get crusty on the outside and still remain tender on the inside as opposed to chicken that, you know, gets crusty on the outside, but you have to cook it a long time to get it done inside. You don't have to cook chicken-fried steak really all that long to get it done on the inside. Of course, you don't want it dried out. You want it to remain tender. Well, now I-when you say tenderizer, is that that stuff like "Adolph's" or something like that? Yes, ma'am. We did that because if you would have your own done in the grocery store, you might have it tenderized several times. You know, run through the tenderizer machine, but ours would fall apart as we have to handle it. So we just had it put through the tenderizer machine one time, just to get it kind of tenderized and break it up, and yet not have it where it was hard to hold together. But you still, after that-run it through the machine once-you still use some of that tenderizer powder. Yes, ma'am. Actually, this is the first year we've done that. We've done it several different ways, but this is basically the way we do it. We want our meat to be tender, but we want it to be real, too. And that's why we use the real cutlets. You don't want it to be mushy either? Sometimes when you over-tenderize it, it is just like eating mush. I hate it that way. Well, now, Texans argue by the hour about the gravy. Yes. (laughter) The gravy that goes on chicken-fried steak, now, how do you make that? People are fascinated by this. Apparently, not a lot of people make their own gravy. And even less numbers must make the cream gravy -it is what we make-the milk gravy-as opposed to brown roast gravy. All right. You make-you put in some grease-and if you're doing your chicken-fried steak-you just take some of the grease you fried your meat in. . . Oh. So it has the flavor. You put some grease in your skillet, then some flour and salt and pepper and make a roux. Then you gradually add your cold milk, stirring all the time, and just stir it over the medium-hot heat until it gets thick. And it's not real difficult to make, but you will find that if you've made it four or five times, it will never be the same consistency. Sometimes you'll come out with it a little thicker and sometimes a little thinner. But this is the way to make the cream gravy we have. Well, that's interesting. You use the same fat that you did the frying in? Yes. You get some of the meat flavor that way. Well, yes. That's the way we do it at home now. You can use just shortening, and we have done that some here to have, you know, the real clean shortening. I don't mean clean as opposed to dirty, but I mean as opposed to not cooked a lot . . . Used. Uh-huh. What kind of fat do you use for the deep-fat frying? Lard. Shortening. You do Crisco or one that's white? Well, we buy commercial shortening. But you don't use lard? You could. I don't think it would make a whole lot of difference. But we actually use shortening. It's supposed to be less troublesome and lower cholesterol or something like that. What is the reaction to people coming in? Do you sell a lot? Is it a popular thing? In the Folklife? Yes, it is a popular thing. The first year that we came, we had people come up and ask us if we were selling fried cactus. Then they'd find out that we were from West Texas, and they'd ask us if it was rattlesnake meat. We had some people ask us if it was chicken. But as we have been here over the years, this is our fifth year to come, most people seem to know now what we have. And we don't have to explain it. (laughter) I have noticed-I read all the every weekend criticisms or critiques of different restaurants around. And time and time again, chicken-fried steak comes up. "They make the best chicken-fried steak in San Antonio." "Their chicken-fried steak is tough." or "Their gravy isn't any good." Time and time again. So I think the public is being educated, but it seems to me that chicken-fried steak is very basic to the Texans. It is in West Texas. It is in West Texas. Are you from West Texas? Yes, ma'am. It's home. Is it? Oh, yes. In fact, I am a lover of chicken-fried steak, and I rarely order it out, because I know the way I like it, and I am oftentimes disappointed. And I think a lot of times the meat, maybe, isn't as good as it should be. Or, they will use-they have packaged gravy mix-and a lot of restaurants use that. We don't think that's as good as making it from scratch. No, I don't either. I think that's awful. Did you say-are you from Colorado City? Not originally, but I have lived there for five years. And I am a West Texas girl. Are you? So you know what's what about West Texas, don't you? Well, I've eaten chicken-fried steak all my life. Although I didn't grow up havin' it in my home, so much, but I had a friend. I think it's interesting to note that probably a lot of poor people used to eat chicken-fried steak, because a friend grew up in a home where her father had been killed when she was very young. And they didn't have very much money, but they had chicken-fried steak all the time. Whereas my family, we weren't rich, but we were more middle class, we had roast and steak and things. Of course, I had a rancher for a granddaddy, so we had our own beef. Yeah. You had meat. But I think chicken-fried steak has been popular for a long time. Well, I can remember when I was young, the round steak was a cheap buy. And when you talk about your friend who didn't have much money, I can remember my mother tenderizing it, pounding flour into it, with the edge of a saucer. Yes, or I've even done this myself-used a glass-and pounded it on the cabinet. (pounding table) (laughter) Well, she always-I can still see her doing that thing. Is there a special menu that goes with chicken-fried steak? What kind of potatoes? What kind of vegetables? Usually, they serve French fries. Oh, do they? Or baked potatoes in West Texas. Now we are serving something that not exactly-goes with chicken-fried steak but is a good addition to it-and we call-they're hot puffs. And what they are is canned biscuits. And you can buy the cheapest canned biscuits available. You deep-fry them like you would a doughnut. They puff up, and they are good with the cream gravy, and we also serve them with honey. And you can poke holes in it like you do in a sopapilla and pour the honey in. And that's what we serve at our booth [at Folklife], the chicken-fried steak, the hot puffs, and the cream gravy and honey. That's interesting. I was going to say you've got to have something to put that cream gravy on. French-fried potatoes wouldn't do. No. Well, yes. Oh, yes. We eat the cream gravy with. . . On French-fried potatoes? Oh, that's one of my husband's favorite meals. In fact, sometimes if I'm not going to prepare supper or something, he will go in and cook French fries and make a bunch of cream gravy. He loves that. He doesn't mind it getting-getting the gravy on the . . . ? No. In fact we have a restaurant in Colorado City, and it does have very good chicken-fried steak. We always order extra cream gravy to go with our French fries. Oh, really? I've learned something I didn't know-that you deep-fat fried that. You can see I'm not a native Texan-I thought it was a piece of meat that was saut?ed in fat in the skillet. Well, of course you can fix round steak that way, but I don't think it's as good. Now at home, you don't have to deep-fry. In other words, when I say that, when we deep-fry it, we completely submerge it here in the grease because we have the cookers. At home I don't do that because I just don't want to use that much grease and be bothered with it. I just use an iron skillet and fry it on one side and then turn it and fry it on the other. Uh-huh. But you do the fingers always. No. Not always. Not always, no. The reason we're doing the fingers here is because people are eating with their hands. It's easier to serve. And it's easier to serve. You will find it in fast foods, like Dairy Queen sells chicken-fried steak fingers. Your husband thinks that it comes from wiener schnitzel? That's awfully interesting, you know. I never gave it a thought because wiener schnitzel always has a fried egg on top. Uh-huh. And it is battered, though, isn't it? Well, it's similar. You can see possibly how that could be the origin, even though we've made a . . . And it's always veal in Europe, but in Texas veal is not very popular. Well, it used to be. I've been married about 22 years, and when I first got married, I bought veal cutlets for chicken-fried steak. Did you? Uh-huh. But now you can hardly ever find veal to buy. And if you do, it's so expensive. It is so costly. We couldn't buy it out in West Texas-in small West Texas towns. We can now get it. Kroger's is selling it now. It's white veal like I grew up with, and it's pretty good, but it's not quite right yet. It doesn't quite suit me. You all might be interested to know how we did come out here. Oh, I think that would be interesting. Yes, of course. My husband and I-we came to the Folklife Festival as a family on a vacation six years ago-and we were fascinated by it like most people-and he went back and said "You know, they've got everything there but chicken-fried steak. And since that's the national food of West Texas, I'm going to write them." He wrote them a letter, and in the letter he said, you know, that they didn't have this and he thought that they should. And he said, since I cooked the best chicken-fried steak in Texas, I think you ought to invite me and my organization to come out. (laughter) So that is how we got to come to the Folklife Festival. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 16:19:56 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:19:56 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710111550.l9BF2lY0005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Barry A. Popik wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/2007 10:50:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL writes: > > Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: > > 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any material. b. Short for > finger-biscuit (see 14b). > > 1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or Naples biscuits. 1865 Atheneum > No. 1989. 803/2 Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. > > The fact that it is colocated with steak, chicken, or any of several other > items (Googling shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet potato, > shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't > necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does it? > > Yes, it is true that there are many foods that are called "fingers." But =20 > "steak fingers" are more than merely "short and narrow pieces" of steak. They > are breaded and deep-fried.=20 As are "chicken fingers", of course, and presumably other fingers of the meat variety. From a quick search of the databases, I see chicken fingers of the deep-fried variety (as opposed to chicken finger sandwiches and the like) showing up in a May 1971 Art Buchwald column about a DC sandwich shop that sold something called "The Goldflnger" ("boneless all-white meat deep-fried chicken fingers topped with cole slaw, Russian dressing and pickle slices on a double-twist seeded roll"). So "chicken fingers" are perhaps not quite as old as the Texan "steak fingers" of the '50s, but they're certainly better known now thanks to national chains like KFC. In any case, it looks like the OED needs a new sense for "finger" to cover the deep-fried fast-food genre, but individual entries for "steak fingers", "chicken fingers", etc., don't seem warranted. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 11 16:47:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:47:07 -0400 Subject: Steak Fingers (West Texas drive-in food, 1950s) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9D3F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: At 9:50 AM -0500 10/11/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > > >> STEAK FINGERS >> ... >> "Steak fingers" should be in OED and possibly DARE. > >Isn't the relevant sense of "finger" already covered in the OED?: > > 9. a. A short and narrow piece of any >material. b. Short for finger-biscuit (see >14b). > >1846 FRANCATELLI Mod. Cook 397 Fingers, or >Naples biscuits. 1865 Athen?um No. 1989. 803/2 >Elderberry wine and fingers of toast. > >The fact that it is colocated with steak, >chicken, or any of several other items (Googling >shows catfish, turkey, pork, beef, potato, sweet >potato, shrimp, calamari, eggplant, cornbread, >french toast, doughnut, etc.) doesn't >necessarily mean it should get a new entry, does >it? Maybe we need to develop a new lexical item, Texas tempura. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 11 17:06:57 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: palindromic? Message-ID: Sophie Harrison, review of Peter Nadas's Fire and Knowledge, NYT Book Review, 9/7/07, p. 19: No one writes a palindromic phrase like Nadas. On writing: "The ideal literary sentence may be born of imagination or experience, but it must gauge its imagination within its experience and its experience within its imagination." further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in different ways. it looks like harrison reached into her stock of technical terms and pulled out a wrong (but semantically related) one. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 11 17:29:16 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:29:16 -0400 Subject: palindromic? In-Reply-To: <200710111707.l9BAnTVJ013403@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > Sophie Harrison, review of Peter Nadas's Fire and Knowledge, NYT Book > Review, 9/7/07, p. 19: > > No one writes a palindromic phrase like Nadas. On writing: "The > ideal literary sentence may be born of imagination or experience, but > it must gauge its imagination within its experience and its > experience within its imagination." > > further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic > ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in > different ways. > > it looks like harrison reached into her stock of technical terms and > pulled out a wrong (but semantically related) one. Well, chiastic constructions like "its imagination within its experience and its experience within its imagination" vaguely resemble "word palindromes" -- typical examples of which include: So patient a doctor to doctor a patient so. Girl, bathing on Bikini, eyeing boy, finds boy eyeing bikini on bathing girl. You can cage a swallow, can't you, but you can't swallow a cage, can you? Bores are people that say that people are bores. Women understand men; few men understand women. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 11 18:06:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:06:54 -0700 Subject: palindromic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2007, at 10:29 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On 10/11/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >> ... further examples follow -- of chiastic phrases, not palindromic >> ones. chiasmus and palindromes both involve reversals, but in >> different ways. > Well, chiastic constructions like "its imagination within its > experience and its experience within its imagination" vaguely resemble > "word palindromes" -- typical examples of which include:... i was expanding on this posting for Language Log on just this point. now i've cribbed your examples. with credit. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 11 20:50:49 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:50:49 -0400 Subject: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) In-Reply-To: <200710111546.l9BAkJ5k013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So, that "explanation" was most likely pulled out of his PR man's ass and I fell for it. Played like a piano. -Wilson On 10/11/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/11/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson, > > when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent," > > replied that his stage name represents change. > > Well, that's more pleasant than his other explanation, which is that > it's an homage to the notorious triggerman Kelvin "50 Cent" Martin... > > ----- > http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=1112 > Nobody, including family and friends, seems to know exactly how Martin > acquired the name 50 Cent. Some say he earned it in a dice game, after > he walked away with a cool $500 after an initial wager of 50 cents. > Others suspect it was because of his five-foot-three, 120-pound frame. > "He was a short guy," says 50's former criminal cohort One Arm Monk, > who fenced all the bling 50 stole. "He was little." > [...] > The pitiless mastermind of countless homicides, 50 Cent's reputation > far outweighed the money he made, and his legacy lives on through > folklore as well as through the music and imagery of Curtis "50 Cent" > Jackson. "I took the name 50 Cent because it says everything I want it > to say. I'm the same kind of person 50 Cent was. I provide for myself > by any means," says Jackson. > ----- > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 11 23:35:21 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:35:21 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710111336.l9BAkJqU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >It would be comforting were correspondents to allow me the benefit >of the doubt in the detection of irony in language (and, >occasionally, other matters, as well). It would hardly be >worthwhile to comment on ironic uses of language any more [sic] than >it would be useful to conduct learned discourse on hyperbole, >demanding, for instance, that dictionaries carry the meaning 'put; >place' for throw when used in the context, "I'll just throw these >glasses into the dishwasher." I do apologize. In my late-evening scan of the email, I failed to notice the irony in your missive to the museum. Of course, I'm sure that you, probably even more than the rest of us here, know about irony and other pragmatic effects. I merely raised it because I was wondering about the actual relative frequency with which politeness forms are used not ironically but with a forced formality coming from social distancing for negative rather than positive reasons. I can see I should simply have gone and dug up references on it and not bothered anyone here with the question. But I was hoping to learn further on the subject from those here who have more grounding in it than I have. Clearly I should have broached the subject in a slightly different style -- again the style of discourse used on other lists seems not to be quite right for this one. My apologies. WRT to inane dissertations: As far as I can tell, not only English but all the humanities are riddled with them. I wish I could be surprised that many in linguistics are also inane, but given the number of deadweight tenure books coming out in the humanities and social sciences serving no real value other than padding library shelves and CVs, it would seem the dissertations are often just a practice round of the same. > Considering the superficial annoyance brought by frequency of the >often inane comments proffered, it is no small surprise that every >week seems to bring the name of another person withdrawing from the >game. Some of them might also just be a bit too thin-skinned to take the vigorous discourse that sometimes goes on. > The foregoing might well have been occasioned by an attack of >dyspepsia, but stupidity and disrespect often have that effect on me. Since I know you have a well-developed understanding of irony, I know that the irony in the above statement (being upset by disrespect but using a disrespectful term) was also intended. I do find this list refreshing in that it's just about the only place I can go where I'm not treated like the smartest person in the room. But of course since I as yet lack graduate training in linguistics (my PhD is in one of those humanities fields), I naturally expect corrections and upbraidings here, and that's why I pipe up. It's a good education! Now I must go actually look and see what research there is on the prevalence of non-ironic negative-toned uses of politeness forms. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 12 00:21:48 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:21:48 -0500 Subject: OT (sort of): French youth-speak known as "Verlan" Message-ID: Today a colleague drew my attention to French "Verlan" (derives from "l'envers" = "the reverse," and I immediately thought of the word-play that goes on in English (Cockney back slang, e.g. "yob" = boy, Cockney rhyming slang, Pig Latin, etc.). A comparative study along this line might be interesting. Below my signoff is a relevant link. Gerald Cohen USA TODAY Powered by Click the following to access the sent link: USATODAY.com - French youths speaking their own language * SAVE THIS link FORWARD THIS link Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email information from any Web site. *This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste the entire address below into your web browser. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-01-05-french-slang_x.htm?POE=click-refer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 12 00:22:18 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:22:18 -0500 Subject: OT: More Verlan (NY Times article) Message-ID: For those interested, here's another item. Gerald Cohen [Top ] New York Times Discovers 'Verlan' Backward Runs French. Reels the Mind. August 17, 2002 By ALEXANDER STILLE, New York Times Those who have studied French but haven't been in France for a while may find themselves confused when they overhear conversations that sound familiar but remain largely incomprehensible. Gradually they may realize, or some kind soul may explain, that what they are hearing is a popular slang called Verlan in which standard French spellings or syllables are reversed or recombined, or both. Thus the standard greeting "Bonjour, ?a va?" or "Good day, how are you?" becomes "Jourbon, ?a av?" "Une f?te" (a party) has become "une teuf"; the word for woman or wife, femme, has become meuf; a caf? has become f?ca; and so on. The word Verlan itself is a Verlanization of the term l'envers, meaning "the reverse." Within a couple of decades, Verlan has spread from the peripheral housing projects of France 's poorest immigrants, heavily populated with Africans and North African Arabs, and gained widespread popularity among young people across France . It has seeped into film dialogue, advertising campaigns, French rap and hip-hop music, the mainstream media. It has even made it into some of the country's leading dictionaries. A language of alienation that has, paradoxically, also become a means of integration, Verlan expresses France 's love-hate relationship with its immigrant community and has begun to attract a number of scholarly studies. "Speaking backwards becomes a metaphor of opposition, of talking back," writes Natalie Lefkowitz, a professor of French applied linguistics at Central Washington University in Ellensburg , Wash. , and the author of "Talking Backwards, Looking Forwards: The French Language Game Verlan" (Gunter Narr, 1991), which, when it was published, was one of the first major studies of Verlan. But along with its subversive element, Ms. Lefkowitz explained in an interview, "for the young urban professional, Verlan is a form of political correctness expressing solidarity with and awareness of the immigrant community at a time of anti-immigrant politics." The first documented uses of Verlan date to the 19th century, when it was used as a code language among criminals, said the French scholar Louis-Jean Calvet. But the current and most widespread use of Verlan has its origins in the growth of France 's banlieues, the peripheral areas outside major cities, where the government built high-rise housing for its immigrant worker population after World War II. In the 1960's and 70's, many North African workers were joined there by their wives and families. "This housing that was supposed to be temporary, and was built intentionally apart from the mainstream society, became permanent," said Meredith Doran, an assistant professor of French applied linguistics at Penn State University, who recently finished a dissertation on the culture and language of the French banlieues. Their inhabitants also call a banlieue "la Cit?", which has been Verlanized into "la T?ci." Verlan caught on among the second generation of immigrants who were living between cultures. "They were born in France and often did not speak Arabic," Ms. Lefkowitz said, "but they did not feel integrated into France ." Ms. Doran explained, "Verlan was a way of their establishing their language and their own distinct identity." The term beur, which is a Verlanization of the French word Arabe, refers specifically to the second- and third-generation North Africans. Until recently, there was even a radio station of French North Africans called Radio Beur. "Verlan has many functions," writes Vivienne M?la, an anthropologist who teaches at the University of Paris VIII , in a recent article called "Verlan 2000." "Initially, it was a secret language that allowed people to speak about illicit activities without being understood. And while Verlan conserves this function, its principal function is for young people to express both their difference and their attachment to a French identity. They have invented a culture that is in between the culture of their parents, which they no longer possess, and the French culture to which they don't have complete access." Verlan, however, is also widely spoken by the other immigrant groups of the banlieues, mainly sub-Saharan Africans and Caribbean blacks. And Verlan, along with reversing syllables and words, has also incorporated terms from Creole, Arabic, Rom (the language of the Gypsies) and American slang to create a kind of speech of the disenfranchised. "Verlan serves as an interface between these different groups who do not have a common language," said Alain Rey, one of the editors of the Petit Robert dictionary, the first of the standard dictionaries to incorporate a number of Verlan terms. More than just reversing words, scholars say, Verlan reverses what have traditionally been regarded as negative qualities in France - ethnic and religious differences, non-French identity, nonstandard speech - and turns them into positive attributes that are consciously cultivated. "In a country obsessed with linguistic purity, it turns a stigma into a positive emblem, a form of covert prestige," Ms. Lefkowitz said. Verlanizing words, she and others say, changes their tone and meaning. "When you say t?ci for cit?, it is a way of expressing affection, like saying homeland," she added. Verlan, in the views of Mr. Rey and others, is also a playful way for the French to forge a language for dealing with ethnic, racial and religious differences. The Verlanized words for Arab, black or Jew "allow you to mark racial and culture differences without insulting people," Ms. Lefkowitz said. But Leyla Habane, a Moroccan-French university student who provided research assistance when Ms. Doran was working on her dissertation, is leery of that interpretation. "I think these terms can be pejorative in any form," she said, although she admitted that they could also be used playfully. Perhaps because it has been so widely adopted by most French, she finds the term beur offensive. But there is no question that Verlan is used to discuss race, ethnicity and other taboo subjects. In one recent study, the French scholars Jean-Luc Azra and V?ronique Cheneau, both of the University of Paris VIII , documented about 350 Verlan terms, which tended to be clustered around a handful of subjects: illegal activities like theft and drugs; race, ethnicity and national origin; and taboo topics like sex, as well as everyday objects on the street and in the subway. Verlan was discovered by mainstream French in the 1980's after a series of major riots and confrontations with police brought the problems of la Cit? to the attention of most French. "These riots put a spotlight on the youth subculture of the banlieus, and that's when everybody noticed that these youths had this language of their own," Ms. Doran said. A series of books and films about life in the banlieues followed, bringing Verlan to the attention of a wider public. The 1995 movie "La Haine" ("Hate"), about the lives of three housing-project friends, with much of its dialogue in Verlan, was a revelation to many French, though some found parts of it incomprehensible. Also very popular was a film thriller called "Les Ripoux," which is a Verlanization of the French word pourri, meaning rotten. Ripoux has become a common term for corrupt police officers. Verlan became so popular that even former French President Fran?ois Mitterrand showed off his knowledge of it during a television interview several years ago. When he was asked whether he knew the word ch?bran (Verlan for branch?, which means hip), he answered, "of course", but added, "That's already pass?; you should say c?bl?," which literally means "wired for cable," but means "plugged in" or with-it in current slang. Ms. Lefkowitz explained: "There are now different kinds of Verlan. There is the Verlan of the original group, the working class immigrants from the banlieus. Then there is the Verlan of the urban professionals, bourgeois Verlan or `Verlan geoisbour.' There is also the Verlan of the teenagers who use it to distinguish themselves from the adult word as a game and a form of amusement." The appropriation of Verlan by mainstream French culture is viewed with some uneasiness by those in the banlieues. "They find it annoying," Ms. Habane said. "They feel it is their language, and now they want to take this from us, too." As a result, Verlan keeps renewing so that the speech of la Cit? stays a step ahead of geoisbour Verlan. Many terms have also been "reverlanized." Beur, Ms. Habane said, now that it has been widely adopted by the French, is sometimes seen as pejorative, with many North African speakers using the term reub, which is beur itself turned inside out. As a Frenchwoman of Moroccan descent pursuing a university degree, Ms. Habane expressed mixed feelings about Verlan. "I worry that it creates a kind of linguistic gap between these young people and the rest of the world that can become a trap," she said. "When I speak to some kids in my neighborhood, they often don't understand me." And while the emulation of Verlan and banlieue culture might be flattering, she worries about recent polls showing that a majority of French feel that there are too many Arabs in the country. Whatever the case, Verlan has made its mark on the language, said Mr. Rey, the lexicographer. "Many of them have become so common, they are not even thought of as Verlan," he said, and their proliferation in newspapers and novels has forced Le Petit Robert to include many Verlan terms in its most recent editions, to the annoyance of purists at the Acad?mie fran?aise, whose dictionary has resisted. "We feel that a dictionary should reflect the language that is actually spoken," Mr. Rey said. "Besides, I think, on balance, there is much creativity in Verlan, and it shows that the French language is very much alive." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/17/arts/17SLAN.html?ex=1031087009&ei=1&en=bf2d0cb ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 12 00:35:27 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:35:27 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The "blog" of "unnecessary" quotes Message-ID: http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 12 01:05:21 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:05:21 -0400 Subject: OT: More Verlan (NY Times article) In-Reply-To: <200710120027.l9BN2SXU005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/11/07, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > > For those interested, here's another item. > > Gerald Cohen > > [Top ] New York Times Discovers 'Verlan' Verlan has come up on Language Log from time to time, most recently in this post by Mark Liberman: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004497.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 12 01:37:04 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:37:04 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: <200710112336.l9BNViGk013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Some of them might also just be a bit too thin-skinned to take the >vigorous discourse that sometimes goes on. I've just realized that this may be taken to imply that Dr. Urdang is thin-skinned. I meant no such thing, just for the record! James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 12 03:02:57 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 Message-ID: Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] real widow of his estate." In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, and always of a very ill repute in her country." I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 11 23:55:57 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:55:57 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <470E1504.22965.E3E29F@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hillaryhazelbrown at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 11:08:32 2007 From: hillaryhazelbrown at GMAIL.COM (Hillary Brown) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:08:32 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <200710120843.l9BNVig4013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wenis as penis appears in an episode of the TV show _Mr. Show_ with Bob Odenkirk and David Cross from 1998. The relevant sketch is even up on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCimI9QUtc0 hb On 10/11/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Wenis > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which > seems > >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). > > Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something > interesting here .... > > Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably > with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a > decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real > life). > > "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to > mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably > < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan > Ames. > > "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or > hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I > think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to > give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or > the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about > someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). > > "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. > > I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie > or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've > glanced at by mistake recently. > > Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": > 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search > (e.g.) Google Groups <>. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: > 10/11/2007 9:11 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 11:49:12 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:49:12 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" Message-ID: NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the recent noose news? ... ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas Tailgating is big at UT.) Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/iced_tea1/ ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/tailgate_party_or_tailgate_picnic_tailgating/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 12 13:34:06 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:34:06 -0400 Subject: Davy Jones's Locker, 1726 Message-ID: OED has Davy Jones 1751 and Davy Jones's locker 1803 1726, available at Google Books full view and Eighteenth Century Collections Online: The four years voyages of Capt. George Roberts; being a series of uncommon events, which befell him in a voyage to the islands of the Canaries, Cape de Verde, and Barbadoes, from whence he was bound to the coast of Guiney. ... Written by himself, ... London : printed for A. Bettesworth, and J. Osborn, 1726. ESTC Number T056902 Physical Description [6],458p.,plates : map ; 8? Notes Sometimes attributed to Daniel Defoe (Wilson (no firm opinion), Trent, Hutchins, Moore, Novak). Attribution disputed by Furbank and Owens, Defoe de-attributions. Source Library British Library Page 89: ...for he would toss them all into Davy Jones's Locker if they did;.... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 12 14:12:25 2007 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <20071011235555.GMJT4814.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: At my day job, we recently completed a short animated film (as a demo for one of our products). One of the characters was originally named "Weenis." The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of "wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of the patch of elbow skin meaning. The name of the character was changed to "Flint" at the last minute when some execs objected to "Weenis." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:23:21 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:23:21 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <20071011235555.GMJT4814.mta16.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: At 7:55 PM -0400 10/11/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >>to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). > >Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something >interesting here .... > >Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably >with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a >decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in >real life). > >"Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to >mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably >< "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by >Jonathan Ames. If the mangina lives and prospers, why not the wenis? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:27:46 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:27:46 -0700 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born of front-porch sitting ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 12 14:40:03 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:40:03 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: And northerners talk fast because they sit uncomfortably on those little stoops . . . . --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to > > ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born of front-porch sitting > >ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 12 15:17:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:17:58 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels In-Reply-To: <20071012104003.HYN07391@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:40 AM -0400 10/12/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >And northerners talk fast because they sit uncomfortably on those >little stoops . . . . > >--Charlie ...and before long we'll be back to the shouting-across-the-Alps explanation of the Grimm's Law sound changes. LH >_____________________________________________________________ >> >>a NPR Morning Edition story this morning by Melanie Peebles on >>gubernatorial candidate Bobby Jindal speaking in the little town of >>Gramercy, Louisiana, refers to >> >> ... locals, who tend to draw out vowels in a speech pattern born >>of front-porch sitting >> >>ah, the lazy pace of rural life made audible. >> >>arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Oct 12 15:49:43 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:49:43 -0400 Subject: Wenis Message-ID: I'm coming to this thread a little late, having been away from my computer for more than a month (in fact, I'm still away from it, since it is on srike , complaiing of neglect).....but this elbow skin gag reminds me of an old joke about some naive newly-weds who went to a hugely-embarrassed, tongue-tied pastor for advice about how to consummate their marriage and were given such ambiguous advice about the man's part being introduced to the woman's receptacle that they ended up with his elbow in her armpit. AM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Original Message: ----------------- From: Dave Wilton dave at WILTON.NET Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:12:25 -0700 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis At my day job, we recently completed a short animated film (as a demo for one of our products). One of the characters was originally named "Weenis." The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of "wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of the patch of elbow skin meaning. The name of the character was changed to "Flint" at the last minute when some execs objected to "Weenis." -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Wenis >Does anybody have chapter and verse on the history of "wenis", which seems >to be US slang for the skin of the elbow (lots of Google hits). Just my impression ... and I hope it's wrong and there's something interesting here .... Basically, "wenis" (= "wienis" = "weinis") means "penis" (presumably with influence from "wiener"). I've seen this on the Internet for a decade or so, I think (can't remember whether I've ever heard it in real life). "Wenis" has also been used, I don't know whether by many or not, to mean a prosthetic penis, I guess a strap-on device maybe, presumably < "w[oman's] + [p]enis". I see this at Google Books in a book by Jonathan Ames. "Wenis" = "elbow-skin" is probably basically some sort of prank or hoax. I don't see it before 2003 at a glance. Nobody but nobody, I think, uses this word without having "penis" in mind. The idea is to give the word a factitious 'clean' meaning ... so that the teacher or the censor 'can't object' when one talks loudly and publicly about someone's 'wenis'. Cf. "pecker" ("It just means 'nose', honest!"). "Wenis" simply meaning "penis" is all over the Internet still. I wonder whether "wenis" = "elbow-skin" was popularized in some movie or TV program. It would be right at home on some of the programs I've glanced at by mistake recently. Something similar apparently appeared on the TV program "Friends": 'WENUS' and 'ANUS' as imaginary acronyms, around 1996: one can search (e.g.) Google Groups <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1063 - Release Date: 10/11/2007 9:11 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 12 16:12:15 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:12:15 -0500 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121149.l9CArpf5032425@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:49 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > recent noose news? Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. > ... > ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material > to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my > website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas > Tailgating is big at UT.) Note that Barry is referring to the University of Texas when he says "UT". I hope that Jon Lighter and Bethany Dumas (both of whom are on the faculty of the REAL UT -- the University of Tennessee) will agree with me that while Barry is okay in referring to U of Tex as UT when he is in Texas, he should be careful when sending nationwide emails, because most right-thinking people will recognize UT as the one in Knoxville. As they should. > Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th > Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia > to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. "The Navy" _The New York Herald_, (New York, NY) Friday, August 21, 1863; p 1, col E "There are three large iceboxes in the vessel, which are capable of containing about thirty tons of ice, besides stowing away a large quantity of fresh meats, &c. Tanks have been placed in different parts of the vessel, which are to be filled with iced tea and coffee, and in fact everything has been done to make her indeed a "home." " "News" _The Daily Miners' Register_, (Central City, CO) Tuesday, July 21, 1868; Issue 306; p 3, col C "Iced tea with a slice of lemon in it is said to be decidedly ahead of lager." [no title] -_Trenton State Gazette_, published as State Gazette; Date: 02-09-1852; Volume: VI; Issue: 1532; Page: [2]; col 3 "Throughout the summer, ices are sold in the streets of every Russian town; and, not only iced water, iced wine, iced beer, but even iced tea is drank in immense quantities." Bill Mullins Univ of TN at Knoxville, Class of 1985 > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 16:35:04 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:35:04 +0000 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9BN2Shm005036@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400 > From: Berson at ATT.NET > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being > transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd > sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in > Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's > widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] > real widow of his estate." > > In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, > and always of a very ill repute in her country." > > I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for > "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 17:02:29 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:02:29 -0500 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710121635.l9CGEu6X031657@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt? I'd be very surprised if someone said "stumpd." Scot > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:35:04 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > How do Americans say "stumped?" ~stumpd or ~stumpt?> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:02:57 -0400> > From: Berson at ATT.NET> > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson"> > Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being> > transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd> > sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in> > Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's> > widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his]> > real widow of his estate."> >> > In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin,> > and always of a very ill repute in her country."> >> > I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for> > "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper".> >> > Joel> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 12 17:30:29 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:30:29 -0400 Subject: "the cat got your tongue?" 1895 In-Reply-To: <20071012093406.ks9b6cnwg0k44wo0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: OED has 1911 The Atchison Daily Globe, (Atchison, KS) Tuesday, March 26, 1895; pg. 2; Issue 5,404; col D [19th C US Newspapers] City News A Collection of Important Paragraphs for Your Consideration What has become of the old fashioned woman who, when she caught her boy stealing preserves, and asked him for an explanation, said, "Well, has the cat got your tongue?" Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 12 19:42:14 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:42:14 -0700 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9BJpCao005040@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not a misprint but a genuine folk-etymological form? New to me. JL "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] real widow of his estate." In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, and always of a very ill repute in her country." I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for "strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 12 19:46:22 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:46:22 -0700 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: ... now posted about, in somewhat expanded form, on Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005015.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Oct 12 20:31:43 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:31:43 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121612.l9CAosAN032316@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/12/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > > recent noose news? > > Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. Or, in a New York context, the hanging of a noose on a black professor's office door at Columbia earlier this week. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/education/12columbia.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 21:48:13 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:48:13 -0400 Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710121612.l9CAosAN032316@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I remember it in the form, "No noose is good news" as a graffito on the wall of a cell in a newspaper cartoon from the 'Forties. In _Grin and Bear It_ by George "Lichty" Lichtenstein, perhaps, and in any number of other cartoons by any number of other cartoonists. -Wilson On 10/12/07, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society > > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik > > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:49 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Iced Tea; Tailgate Picnic; "No Noose Is Good News" > > > > > > > NO NOOSE IS GOOD NEWS--An old saying, also given as "No noose > > is good noose." When did that saying start? What's behind the > > recent noose news? > > Probably the recent unrest at Jena, LA. > > > > ... > > ICE TEA & TAILGATE PICNIC--I've added my "iced tea" material > > to the New York Food & Drink and Texas sections of my > > website, and Tailgate Picnic to the Texas section. (Texas > > Tailgating is big at UT.) > > Note that Barry is referring to the University of Texas when he says > "UT". I hope that Jon Lighter and Bethany Dumas (both of whom are on > the faculty of the REAL UT -- the University of Tennessee) will agree > with me that while Barry is okay in referring to U of Tex as UT when he > is in Texas, he should be careful when sending nationwide emails, > because most right-thinking people will recognize UT as the one in > Knoxville. As they should. > > > Any earlier "iced tea" in 19th > > Century U.S. newspapers? Maybe someone can add to Wikipedia > > to make sure that the 1904 "iced tea" myth doesn't get told again. > > > "The Navy" _The New York Herald_, (New York, NY) Friday, August 21, > 1863; p 1, col E > "There are three large iceboxes in the vessel, which are capable of > containing > about thirty tons of ice, besides stowing away a large quantity of fresh > meats, &c. > Tanks have been placed in different parts of the vessel, which are to be > filled with > iced tea and coffee, and in fact everything has been done to make her > indeed a > "home." " > > "News" _The Daily Miners' Register_, (Central City, CO) Tuesday, July > 21, 1868; Issue 306; p 3, col C > "Iced tea with a slice of lemon in it is said to be decidedly ahead of > lager." > > [no title] -_Trenton State Gazette_, published as State Gazette; Date: > 02-09-1852; Volume: VI; Issue: 1532; Page: [2]; col 3 > "Throughout the summer, ices are sold in the streets of every Russian > town; and, not only iced > water, iced wine, iced beer, but even iced tea is drank in immense > quantities." > > Bill Mullins > Univ of TN at Knoxville, Class of 1985 > > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 12 22:38:19 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:38:19 -0400 Subject: "No noose is good news" (1870) Message-ID: No news is good news. James Howell, _Familiar Letters, 3 June 1640. --_Yale Book of Quotations_ (2006), pg. 617. ... ... 11 December 1866, Waukesha (WI) Plaindealer, pg. 4, col. 1: The Boston _Post_ says: "Hanging a priest and a reporter will not obliterate Fenianism." It evidently forgets that a reporter cannot be hanged. Where would they get the _noose_? (news.) ... 13 January 1870, Decatur (IL) Republican, pg. 1, col. 1: To the condemned man no noose is good news. ... 4 April 1872, Iowa State Reporter (Waterloo, Iowa), pg. 2, col. 4: No noose is good news, as the man said when he was reprieved. ... 13 April 1872, Portsmouth (OH) Times, pg. 1, col. 8: To the condemned man no noose is good news. ... 12 September 1882, Chicago (IL) Daily Trobune, pg. ?: Mr. Tracey is beginning to think that no noose is good noose. ... 17 October 1894, Monroe (WI) Evening Times, pg. 4, col. 1: When lynchings are finally suppressed no noose will be good news. ... 13 June 1895, Brooklyn (NY) Daily Eagle, pg. 6: No noose is good news to him. As the rope here has given way to the electric chair, the foregoing remark is withdrawn. ... 8 May 1912, Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, WI), "Notes by the Funny Men," pg. 7, col. 2: "I have held a reprieve for you from the home secretary," said the governor of the prison to the callous murderer. "Ah!" replied the latter, "No noose is good news, as the proverb says." ... 17 April 1926, Logansport (IN) Morning Press, pg. 4, col. 4: CHAIRMAN--What, Mr. Tinder, would you deem an ideal penalty for those who flaunt the Volstead law? TINDER--Hanging for first offense. CHAIRMAN--What? Hanging for first offenders? TINDER--Yes. hanging! No noose is good noose without a penalty like that. ... 13 April 1927, Coshocton (OH) Tribune, pg. 6, col. 6: _As He Left the Pen_ "No noose is good noose," said the pardoned murderer. -- Cornell Widow. ... 1 June 1928, Kingsport (TN) Times, "Jokes," pg. 4, col. 3: Counsel (to condemned)--You are not going to be hanged after all. Killer--No noose is good news. ... 27 January 1930, Tyrone (PA) Daily Herald, pg. 6, col. 6: _Getting the Hang of It_ "Even the bluest of the bluebloods," says the warden of Sing Sing prison, "cannot trace their ancestry far back without encountering the gallows or a prison." In studying the family tree no noose is good news.--South Bend Tribune. ... 25 June 1930, Charleston (WV) Gazette, pg. 6, col. 5: _Or Hanged_ Montgomery News One is being told of the fellow that was about to be hung. Just as the trap was about to be sprung a message was received granting him a reprieve. Hearing the message he remarked: "No noose is good noose." And they hanged him anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 12 22:49:17 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:49:17 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] Louisiana vow els Message-ID: In a message dated 10/12/07 3:46:49 PM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes: > > ?? http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005015.html > Wonderful, Arnold! I would add only that, when students object that specific linguistic changes MUST have a particular explanation--that language change cannot be random--I ask them why it rained yesterday and not today. It seems to me that folk wisdom actually has a fairly well-developed sense of the random nature of some phenomena (e.g., in addition to the weather, the sudden appearance of a giant number of gnats that recently changed the course of baseball history; "just not getting the cards" at poker; meeting the love of one's life in Bora-Bora). ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 12 23:45:39 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:45:39 -0400 Subject: "bloodymindedness 1690 (antedates OED2 1789) Message-ID: If any slave, by punishment from the owner for running away or other offence, shall suffer in life or limb, no person shall be liable to the law for the same; but if any one out of wilfulness, wantoness, or bloody mindedness, shall kill a slave, he or she, upon due conviction thereof, shall suffer three months imprisonment, without bail or mainprize, and also pay the sum of fifty pounds to the owner of such slave. The Statutes at Large of South Carolina: Edited, under Authority of the Legislature, by David J. McCord (1840: Printed by A. S. Johnson), VII. 346. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 13 01:43:22 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:43:22 -0400 Subject: Wenis In-Reply-To: <00b001c80cd9$eaeac4b0$6701a8c0@viper> Message-ID: >The artist who named him says he came up with it on his own as a blend of >"wiener" and "penis." When I asked him yesterday, he said he was unaware of >the patch of elbow skin meaning. A student at the local high school informs me that the elbow-skin word is current at the school, but only used by a few students (who use it a lot). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1067 - Release Date: 10/12/2007 6:02 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 01:47:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710121702.l9CGEuAP031657@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Come again? m a m On 10/12/07, Scot LaFaive wrote: > > > PiBIb3cgZG8gQW1lcmljYW5zIHNheSAic3R1bXBlZD8iIH5zdHVtcGQgb3IgfnN0dW1wdD8NCkkn > > ZCBiZSB2ZXJ5IHN1cnByaXNlZCBpZiBzb21lb25lIHNhaWQgInN0dW1wZC4iDQogDQpTY290DQoN > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 01:50:28 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:50:28 -0400 Subject: Louisiana vowels Message-ID: That's a good reply, Ron; I'll have to remember it. m a m On 10/12/07, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > Wonderful, Arnold! I would add only that, when students object that > specific > linguistic changes MUST have a particular explanation--that language > change > cannot be random--I ask them why it rained yesterday and not today. It > seems > to me that folk wisdom actually has a fairly well-developed sense of the > random > nature of some phenomena (e.g., in addition to the weather, the sudden > appearance of a giant number of gnats that recently changed the course of > ba > seball history; "just not getting the cards" at poker; meeting the love of > one's life in > Bora-Bora). > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Oct 13 03:29:07 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: gentleman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is from the New-York evening Post, mid-October, 1825: Yesterday morning a well dressed female with her servant behind her, stepping up to a huckster in Washington Market enquired whether she had "any peaches proper for sweetmeats?" "No, aunty, but I guess you may get some of that there lady with a pipe in her mouth, what sits opposite, and sells them savoy cabbages and blue nose potatoes." GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 13 16:42:24 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:42:24 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" Message-ID: In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory whistle is going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc. In evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!" Pretty scary, no? The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design statement that screams innovation." And they mean that in a good way. This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats. Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say," "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intended, Blacula fans). So you get "scream." JL --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sat Oct 13 17:07:32 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:07:32 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" In-Reply-To: <18815.51933.qm@web53911.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2007, at 9:42 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a > factory whistle is going off next to your ear, you're in space and > nobody can hear you, etc. In evidence, I submit to you the film > title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), which was meant to > suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line "The > Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!" Pretty scary, no? > > The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their > new laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's > "a design statement that screams innovation." > And they mean that in a good way. > > This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats. i don't think the usage is particularly recent or largely a matter of advertising, google on {"fairly screams"} for more examples. NOAD2 says screaming expresses "excitement, great emotion, or pain", which strikes me as pretty much right. in any case, not necessarily negative. but *loud*, which is what "fairly screams" and similar expressions pick up on. older uses of "scream" are still available. and i can't see how anyone could misunderstand the figure in uses that have inanimate objects screaming (or shouting; {"fairly shouts"} nets a considerable number of hits). it looks like pretty routine figurative language to me. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Sat Oct 13 19:31:32 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:31:32 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam Message-ID: In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least the ones searchable via Linguistlist) Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 13 19:38:45 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:38:45 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0_[ADS-L]_semantic_drif_t:=A0?= "scream" Message-ID: On the other hand, somebody might just say that this is a slightly metaphorical use and not a sign that advertising is destroying the language. As my grandmother said a hundred years ago, "You scream, I scream--We all scream for ice cream." In a message dated 10/13/07 12:42:37 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory whistle is > going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc.? In > evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973), > which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the line > "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!"? Pretty scary, no? > > ? The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new > laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design statement > that screams innovation." > ? And they mean that in a good way. > > ? This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats.? > Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say," > "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intended, > Blacula fans). > > ? So you get "scream." > > ? JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Oct 13 19:40:34 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:40:34 -0700 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131931.l9DAkWqe002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB Geoff Nathan wrote: > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some > of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or > two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least > the ones searchable via Linguistlist) > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 13 19:52:12 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 15:52:12 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Friday the Thirteenth (1869, 1880) Message-ID: Barry Popik has taken the popular understanding of Friday the 13th as a day of ill-boding back to 1898. It seems to go back at least to the early 1880s, where I saw several examples. Here's the earliest, from 1880, plus a passage from 1869 that seems to show the superstition in its formative period. Might the 1880 passage also be an antedating of the black cat superstition? 45 Appletons' Journal 256 (Mar. 1880) (Making of America): Everybody knows the state of mind which, as superstitious folk hold, precedes some great calamity. The victim is foolishly, childishly, recklessly confident and happy; he disregards those warnings which used to play so large a part in the lives of our ancestors: magpies, black-cats, crows, hares, run across his path unheeded; screech-owls hoot and he hears them not; brindled cats mew and he only laughs; knives are crossed, salt is spilled, dreams are told before breakfast, and he recks not; the visions of the night have brought him squalling babies, and he forgets them; he stumbles at the threshold and thinks nothing of it; the day is Friday, the thirteenth, and he regards it not; every kind of miraculous warning is lavished upon that man, and he goes on to his doom, laughing and careless. Sutherland Edwards, The Life of Rossini 340 (1869) (Google Books full text): He [sc. Rossini] was surrounded to the last by admiring and affectionate friends; and if it be true that, like so many other Italians, he regarded Friday as an unlucky day, and thirteen as an unlucky number, it is remarkable that on Friday, the 13th of November, he died. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 20:55:57 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:55:57 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131940.l9DAkWHj027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and straightforward step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' [a subject]. m a m On 10/13/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the > default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it > actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB > > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 21:40:12 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:40:12 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? Message-ID: In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Oct 13 21:39:45 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:39:45 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710132056.l9DAkWss002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't say whether I've heard it, but in context for me it would not be strikingly odd. "Go over" would be more normal in the parts of Canada I've been educated (Alberta and Ontario), but "take up" would be understood and probably not remarked on, I'd say. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 13 21:42:34 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:42:34 +0000 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10710131355g623d3947u3faefff4aa6fdf12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The only way I have ever used it is as a synonym for "collect" Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Mark Mandel Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:55:57 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Taking up an exam Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and straightforward step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' [a subject]. m a m On 10/13/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I suppose people might say "review", but "go over an exam" is the > default expression for me in Seattle and I think it's better because it > actually has the specific meaning that you mention. BB > > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 13 23:51:43 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:51:43 -0400 Subject: "hangnail": an eighteenth-century eggcorn Message-ID: This is the latest version of a word that's been around, and mutating, at least since the 10th century. The OED says: >>>>> hang-nail [f. HANG v. + NAIL; but historically an accommodated form of angnail; cf. AGNAIL 3.] A small piece of epidermis partially detached, but hanging by one end, near to a nail. <<<<< Their etymology of "agnail" (defs below) starts with the delicious peeve "A word of which the application (and perhaps the form) has been much perverted by pseudo-etymology". In Old and Middle English (1) it meant 'a corn on the toe or foot', the "nail" part having "the sense, not of 'finger-nail,' unguis, but of a nail (of iron, etc.) clavus, hence, a hard round-headed excrescence fixed in the flesh". But at least by the late 1500s (2) it had gotten associated with finger- and toenails, and from there it was got eggcorned (3) into its present pronunciation and meaning. >>>>> agnail 1. A corn on the toe or foot. Obs. 2. Any 'painful swelling,' 'ulcer,' or 'sore,' under, about, around the toe- or finger-nail; in J. and subseq. Dicts. identified with whitlow. [This change of explanation seems due to pseudo-etymology; whether confusion with Fr. angonailles 'botches, (pocky) bumps, or sores', or med.L. anghiones, anguinalia 'carbuncles' contributed the 'ulcers' or 'sores' is uncertain; but -nail, misinterpreted, fixed the locality. The further identification with whitlow (in the Dicts.) seems due to collating the Gr. name of the latter paronukhia (f. parh 'beside' + onykh- 'nail') with ag-nail (quasi ag- 'at' + nail). Ash explains agnail as 'a whitlow, paronychia,' and paronychia as 'a perpetual sore under the root of the nail, a whitlow.'] 3. A 'hang-nail'; see quot. [Hang-nail, given by Halliwell as a dialect word, is evidently like the Sc. equivalent anger-nail (ANGER = irritation, inflammation), a corruption of ang-nail, putting a plausible meaning into it. That is, ang-nail, dialectally pronounced hang-nail, was explained as 'hanging' or detached nail. This explanation of agnail appears first in Bailey 1737 (ed. 1736 having only sense 2); the form hang-nail is in Craig 1847, and is now commoner in London than agnail.] <<<<< m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 14 00:33:08 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:33:08 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <200710120303.l9C33Lw5021247@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being >transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd >sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in >Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's >widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] >real widow of his estate." > >In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, >and always of a very ill repute in her country." > >I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for >"strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". I suppose maybe it's just "strumpet" ... with misprint or otherwise. At Early American Newspapers, I see in _American Weekly Mercury_, 19-26 Aug. 1736, "from the Boston Gazette, of Aug. 16", a comparable passage: <>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: 10/13/2007 7:26 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 14 00:50:41 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:50:41 -0400 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710132143.l9DAkWNF027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I was thinking of uses like these: - "He took up philately after he retired." - "That covers the holiday committee's business. Shall we take up the redecoration issue next?" m a m On 10/13/07, ronbutters at aol.com wrote: > > The only way I have ever used it is as a synonym for "collect" > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Mandel > > Never heard it in that sense, but it seems to be a short and > straightforward > step from the more general sense of "take up" as 'begin consideration of' > [a > subject]. > > [ ...] > Geoff Nathan wrote: > > > In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian > and > > > American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) > > > Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has > > > been returned to explain the correct answers'? [...] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 14 01:27:35 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:27:35 -0400 Subject: Stumped by "a common stumper", 1736 In-Reply-To: <20071014003309.LDUZ7709.mta15.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately, Doug's is not a second instance; his is the same 1736 newspaper article that I cited, from the American Weekly Mercury. The Aug. 16 issue of the Boston Gazette that is credited by the AMW is not extant. Joel At 10/13/2007 08:33 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>Is "stumper" familiar? A newspaper writes of a woman felon being >>transported from Newgate to Maryland in 1736, she "had receiv'd >>sentence of death for theft, and was reputed a common stumper in >>Dublin and always of ill repute, and [im]personated Mr. Buckler's >>widow, in order to [steal his ship and possessions] and defraud [his] >>real widow of his estate." >> >>In another newspaper, she is described as "a common whore in Dublin, >>and always of a very ill repute in her country." >> >>I hope this is something more interesting than a misprint for >>"strumpet". OED2 has no plausible sense for this "stumper". > >I suppose maybe it's just "strumpet" ... with misprint or otherwise. > >At Early American Newspapers, I see in _American Weekly Mercury_, >19-26 Aug. 1736, "from the Boston Gazette, of Aug. 16", a comparable >passage: <a Common Strumpet in Dublin, and always of ill repute, and personated >Mr. Buckler's Widow ...>>. > >-- Doug Wilson > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.9/1069 - Release Date: >10/13/2007 7:26 PM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 14 06:15:51 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:15:51 -0400 Subject: Frings (French Fries + Onion Rings) (1979) Message-ID: FRINGS + FRIES + ONION RINGS--9,220 Google Hits ... I just added an entry for "frings" (french fries + onion rings). I'd noticed "frings" on the menus of several restaurants here in Austin (such as Shady Grove on Barton Springs' restaurant row). ... "Frings" was trademarked by Jack in the Box in 1979, but it now appears to be generic, with a large number of hits all over North America. OED should consider having "frings." Pre-1980 citations (check FACTIVA) are welcome. ... Why is "frings" in my Texas section? Well, "onion rings" were invented at the Pig Stand drive-ins in Texas. "French fries," as we all know, were invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, when someone from the New York Tribune asked Fletcher Davis where he got his potato recipe, and Davis replied "Paris" (Texas), and the reporter thought it was Paris, France... ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/frings_french_fries_onion_rings/ ... Entry from October 14, 2007 Frings (French Fries + Onion Rings) "Frings" are orders of half french fries and half onion rings. The "frings" name was trademarked by Jack in the Box (a hamburger chain popular in California and Texas) in 1979, but Jack in the Box discontinued the item. Other fast food chains and restaurants (especially in California and Texas) have "frings" on their menus. Runzia's (of Nebraska) website claims a trademark on "frings," but trademark records show a first use of 2002 and a "Dead" trademark status. Ruby's Diner (of California) has a "frings" trademark claim from 1992. Jack In The Box: Jack Facts Gone, but not forgotten, Jack in the Box has a few renowned menu items that have gone the way of mood rings and shag carpeting, including a fish sandwich called the Moby Jack, introduced in 1970, and Frings, a combination of onion rings and french fries, introduced in 1979. A.Word.A.Day AWADmail Issue 98 August 27, 2003 (...) Interesting choice for this week's theme. One in particular that I remember is one that, thankfully, never caught on in our language. Several years ago, the fast food chain Jack-in-the-Box started selling a side order of both French fries and onion rings, together in the same package. They dubbed this culinary combination "Frings". The idea did not catch on, and "Frings" went the way of McDonald's' Arch Deluxe. Thankfully so! -Dale Roberts (drobertsATcasarino.com) Wikipedia: Jack in the Box Jack in the Box (NYSE: JBX) is an American fast-food restaurant founded in 1951. In total, the chain has 2,100 locations in 17 U.S. states, mostly in the western half of the country. Most of the outlets are in California (900), followed by Texas (560), Arizona (165), and Washington (132) (...) In 1999, Foodmaker Inc., the corporate name of Jack in the Box, was renamed to fit its core brand. Runza Frings(r) - Fries and Rings together! Wikipedia: Harvey's Harvey's is a fast food restaurant chain that operates in Canada, with locations concentrated in southern and eastern Ontario, southern Quebec, the Maritimes, and urban Alberta. It serves hamburgers, hot dogs, french fries, onion rings, and other traditional fast food fare. (...) One of Harvey's most famous promotional menu items was Frings, a specially designed french fry box that's half-full of french fries and half-full of onion rings. Shady Grove (Austin, TX) Frings A generous basket of french fries and onion rings. Lakeway Resort and Spa (Austin, TX) All sandwich board items come with a choice of: French Fries, Onion Rings, Frings, Cole Slaw, Homemade Potato Chips or Potato Salad EZ's (Austin, TX) If you get the frings (half fries, half onion rings), you have to be sure to tell them to include the chipotle sauce. It's delicious, especially mixed with ketchup. Freddie's (Austin, TX) frings (can't decide...get some of both) Sammie's Bar-B-Q (Fort Worth, TX) Frings (Combination Fries and Onion Rings) Lg $2.95 Park Classic Diner (PA & OH) Frings If one is good, two is better! Classic Park Fries and onion rings served together! They?re crispy, crispy, and crunchy, crunchy, too! Ruby's Diner (various states) FRINGS A combination basket of our Fit Fries and RubyRings for the very hungry and indecisive. Fuddruckers (various states) Onion Rings or Frings Cheeburger Cheeburger (various states) Frings Basket: the best of both worlds! a combination of our famous fries and rings. Green Eggs and Ham Cafe (Disneyworld) Frings (1/2 fries, 1/2 rings) $2.79 Google Groups:alt.tv.star-trek.voyager Newsgroups: alt.tv.star-trek.voyager From: "John Ro" Date: 2000/01/05 Subject: Re: I Love You, Jack In The Box >I remember their tacos, they were good. Hey, do they still have >"Frings"? (half French Fries, half onion rings) Frings may have had a name change. Curly Fries have been on the menu for a number of years now - French Fries all curled up to look like onion rings, but no real onions in them. Google Groups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc Newsgroups: rec.arts.tv.mst3k.misc From: Stephen Cooke Date: 2000/03/24 Subject: Re: OTP: His Finest (Quarter) Hour Here we go, a Harvey's flame-broiled war? (...) Plus, you can get Frings! (A mix of fries and rings) Google Groups: ba.food Newsgroups: ba.food From: a... at bayarea.net (Asya Kamsky) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:53:14 +0000 (UTC) Local: Thurs, May 17 2001 4:53 pm Subject: new burger place in San Mateo The menu also has salads, and sides like fries, onion rings and frings (combo of the two). (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: French Fries and Onion Rings for Consumption On or Off the Premises. FIRST USE: 19790802. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19790802 Mark Drawing Code (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS Design Search Code 05.11.01 - Beets; Carrots; Parsnips; Potatoes 08.01.09 - Bagels; Doughnuts (donuts) 08.13.25 - Eggroll; Enchiladas; Potato chips; Potato chips; Rice; Salt; Snack foods; Sugar cubes; Tortilla chips 27.03.05 - Objects forming letters or numerals Serial Number 73236310 Filing Date October 22, 1979 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 22, 1981 Registration Number 1182338 Registration Date December 15, 1981 Owner (REGISTRANT) Foodmaker, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 9330 Balboa Ave. San Diego CALIFORNIA 92123 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record BABETTE D. KAMM Disclaimer Applicant disclaims the representation of an onion ring and a French fried potato apart from the mark as shown; however, applicant waives none of its common law rights therein. Description of Mark The stippling in the drawing is for shading only and does not represent color. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date September 21, 2002 (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: Onion rings and french fries for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19920101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920101 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78230704 Filing Date March 27, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition September 18, 2007 Owner (APPLICANT) Ruby's Diner, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 660 Newport Center DriveSuite 850 Newport Beach CALIFORNIA 92660 Attorney of Record Edward A. Schlatter Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark FRINGS Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 029. US 046. G & S: French fries and onion rings for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 20020301. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20020301 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76428415 Filing Date July 9, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition January 28, 2003 Registration Number 2709225 Registration Date April 22, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Runza National, Inc. CORPORATION NEBRASKA 5931 South 58th St., P.O. Box 6042 Lincoln NEBRASKA 68506 Attorney of Record Alan D. Slattery Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Cancellation Date March 6, 2007 (Trademark) Word Mark WINGS "N" FRINGS Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 043. US 100 101. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES, NAMELY, CHICKEN WINGS, FRIES AND ONION RINGS Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 78217774 Filing Date February 21, 2003 Current Filing Basis 1B Original Filing Basis 1B Owner (APPLICANT) Duke, Mike H INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 2731 Whispering Fern Court Kingwood TEXAS 77345 Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date February 9, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 14 14:15:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:15:20 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? Message-ID: What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of colonial sources have been modernized.") The days are short, the weather's cold By tavern fires tales are told Some ask for dram when first come in Others with flip or bounce begin. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 14 18:01:03 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:01:03 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl Message-ID: Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and searched Google a little. Not much luck. The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in 1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't find out why. Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with answer, but defer to the scholars on here. Sam Clements PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the 30's. Maybe he knows. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 14 18:04:28 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:04:28 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl Message-ID: That would be "Annie Goodwin." As a side note, I'm not interested in girls who made cigarettes in factories in the 1800s sc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Clements" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: cigarette girl Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and searched Google a little. Not much luck. The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in 1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't find out why. Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with answer, but defer to the scholars on here. Sam Clements PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the 30's. Maybe he knows. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 14 19:21:05 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:21:05 -0400 Subject: cigarette girl In-Reply-To: <000601c80e8c$2f9c1e70$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: At 2:01 PM -0400 10/14/07, Sam Clements wrote: >Of course, we've all seen the 1920s-1930's and later movies with the >doll in a skimpy outfit, hawking cigarettes in night clubs. > >But, I'm wondering where it came from. I've checked OED, HDAS, and >searched Google a little. Not much luck. > >The term turns up as early as the 1880's using Newspaperarchive, >with reference to a character in Carmen, the opera. > >Then, there is a horrible death of one Annie Goiodwin, in NY in >1890. She's always referred to as a "cigarette girl" but I can't >find out why. > >Perhaps, if I wanted to spend a few more hours, I could come up with >answer, but defer to the scholars on here. > >Sam Clements > >PS--Larry once posted his mother was a "cigarett girl" in NY in the >30's. Maybe he knows. > Well, it is too bad my mother isn't around to get some history from. She did indeed work as a cigarette girl (complete with final -e!) for many years in the 1930s. Of course the term was already well-established by then, not to mention the profession. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 20:15:59 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:15:59 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710131938.l9DAkWqu002619@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, Blacula, Speak"? I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" No semantic drift there, but I bet I'm picking up more than was implied. JL RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20[ADS-L]=20semantic=20drif? = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?t:=A0=20"scream"?= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the other hand, somebody might just say that this is a slightly=20 metaphorical use and not a sign that advertising is destroying the language.= As my=20 grandmother said a hundred years ago, "You scream, I scream--We all scream f= or ice=20 cream." In a message dated 10/13/07 12:42:37 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes: > In my life, "scream" has almost entirely negative or troubling=20 > connotations: someone's in pain, a bomb is whizzing toward you, a factory=20= whistle is=20 > going off next to your ear, you're in space and nobody can hear you, etc.= =A0 In=20 > evidence, I submit to you the film title, "Scream, Blacula, Scream!" (1973= ),=20 > which was meant to suggest horror. The movie advertised itself with the li= ne=20 > "The Black Prince of Shadows Stalks the Earth Again!"=A0 Pretty scary, no? >=20 > =A0 The latest Dell computer catalogue, however, promises that their new=20 > laptop isn't just an annoying electronic gizmo. Instead, it's "a design st= atement=20 > that screams innovation." > =A0 And they mean that in a good way. >=20 > =A0 This is a good example of word inflation inj advertising gone bats.= =A0=20 > Vaguely positive, then neutral, then ambivalent words (like "embody," "say= ,"=20 > "announce," "proclaim," and even "shout") have been sucked dry (pun intend= ed,=20 > Blacula fans). >=20 > =A0 So you get "scream." >=20 > =A0 JL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >=20 >=20 ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 20:19:26 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:19:26 -0700 Subject: Taking up an exam In-Reply-To: <200710131931.l9DAkWHB027950@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Never heard of it. JL Geoff Nathan wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Geoff Nathan Subject: Taking up an exam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In discussion late last night among linguists who are both Canadian and American the expression to 'take up an exam' came up (sorry...) Are readers here familiar with the sense 'go over an exam after it has been returned to explain the correct answers'? It was the sense of some of us that the term is exclusively Canadian, perhaps limited to one or two provinces. I couldn't find the expression in the archives (at least the ones searchable via Linguistlist) Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Nathan Computing and Information Technology and Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI, 48202 geoffnathan at wayne.edu C&IT Phone (313) 577-1259 English Phone (313) 577-8621 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 14 20:29:24 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:29:24 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <92940.50833.qm@web53901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, > Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually > challenging nobody is saying that. as i said before, the older uses of "scream" are still available. just because a new use becomes available doesn't mean that the old ones have been supplanted, and the context makes it perfectly clear when literal screaming is intended and when the screaming is figurative. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 14 22:18:35 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:18:35 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? In-Reply-To: <200710141415.l9EEFZAJ016070@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type >of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that >might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a >tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of >colonial sources have been modernized.") > >The days are short, the weather's cold >By tavern fires tales are told >Some ask for dram when first come in >Others with flip or bounce begin. I assume it's short for "cherry bounce" ("cherry-bounce" in my poor-man's OED), i.e., a drink, either cherry brandy (as in OED) or some rum-based concoction (several recipes can be found via Google Books, although none so early as 1704). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 22:56:58 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:56:58 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710142016.l9EB7mWO023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry more of a challenge. The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat camp overtones, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:03:14 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:03:14 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial governments have followed suit." I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) -- which, however, could make _it_ an eggcorn. I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. I can't imagine this one is all that new. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 23:15:39 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:15:39 -0700 Subject: glory Message-ID: OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 14 23:30:12 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:30:12 +0000 Subject: glory Message-ID: Does this ironic sense of "glory" exist apart from the cliche that JL cites here? If not, it seems to me that dictionaries should NOT mention it. And the ironic reading is usu. so clear from context that even listing the fixed phrase might should be given very low priority. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] glory OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 14 23:42:41 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:42:41 +0000 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: I don't understand. My intuition is that "follow suit" is the normal idiom. Never heard "follow suite." ------Original Message------ From: James Harbeck Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:03 PM Subject: [ADS-L] follow suite >> follow suit Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial governments have followed suit." I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) -- which, however, could make _it_ an eggcorn. I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. I can't imagine this one is all that new. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:44:59 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:44:59 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142304.l9EB7mmw011531@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not otherwise often written down.) So never mind! And now I know why it wasn't mentioned. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 14 23:50:13 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:50:13 -0700 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2007, at 4:03 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > Toronto Star, October 13, 2007, page L12, "Thinking outside the bowl" > by David Rider: "In Canada, neither the federal nor provincial > governments have followed suit." > > I've submitted this to the Eggcorn forum, although I supposed its > eggcorn status is questionable, inasmuch as following suit doesn't > make more sense than following suite, and it may be that "suit" is > just a misspelling of "suite" (as in cards) i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling (and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) > -- which, however, could > make _it_ an eggcorn. > > I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. > I can't imagine this one is all that new. this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 23:50:35 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:50:35 -0700 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: <200710142257.l9EAkPtH021983@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have suddenly been extinguished. They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not "destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively than I thought. Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice cream they want. JL James Harbeck wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: James Harbeck Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >Blacula, Speak"? > I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry more of a challenge. The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat camp overtones, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 14 23:54:50 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:54:50 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142350.l9EB7mZg023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling >(and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- >playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) You're right, of course. Somehow I learned that one wrong as a child and have lacked opportunities for correction! Not eggcorn but eggface, as it turns out. > > -- which, however, could >> make _it_ an eggcorn. >> >> I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. >> I can't imagine this one is all that new. > >this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped >variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). Yes, I think that's fair. One less user now, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 14 23:55:55 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:55:55 -0400 Subject: from the "cocked an inquisitive eyebrow" collection Message-ID: Cris Collinsworth on NBC, discussing a big fumble, remarked that "it turned the complete game around", i.e. turned the game completely around. (In an earlier discussion over the summer re "dodged a narrow bullet", Arnold reminded us this is called hypallage or transferred epithets. Somehow it strikes me as especially odd when the adverb transfer to modify a definite, as above.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 15 00:07:49 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:07:49 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I >learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always >understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm >quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative >for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At >any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been >wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, >but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't >people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not >otherwise often written down.) I think "suite" for "suit [of cards etc.]" is simply a variant spelling in modern times. Searching Google Books for <<"follow suit">> gives 1890 items while <<"follow suite">> gives 'only' 415: still far too many for sporadic error, I think. Of course I didn't examine every item, but quick browse indicates that the 'literal' (card-playing, domino-playing) and the 'metaphoric' senses of the phrase both have multiple examples of each spelling ... and both spellings were used 200 years ago ... and both are used currently, in seemingly respectable books. I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Mon Oct 15 00:15:05 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:15:05 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710150007.l9EB7mom011531@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". Well, as I learned it, same as "suit." But it is an interesting question -- are there people out there who would say "follow suite" with "suite" like "sweet"? Not something easy to determine with a web search, alas. If there were a good way to limit the hits to end words of rhyming poetry, that would be a great start (perhaps there is, and I simply don't know how -- if so, someone please tell me!). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 00:18:01 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:18:01 +0000 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit Message-ID: Could the confusion be related to the prescriptions and prescriptions concerning "bedroom suites." Etc.? ------Original Message------ From: James Harbeck Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] follow suite >> follow suit >i see no evidence that "suit of cards" is not the standard spelling >(and pronunciation). "follow suit" is surely the ordinary card- >playing-based idiom. (google has millions vs. tens of thousands.) You're right, of course. Somehow I learned that one wrong as a child and have lacked opportunities for correction! Not eggcorn but eggface, as it turns out. > > -- which, however, could >> make _it_ an eggcorn. >> >> I was surprised not to find it in the archives in the Eggcorn forum. >> I can't imagine this one is all that new. > >this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped >variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). Yes, I think that's fair. One less user now, though. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Oct 15 00:29:32 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" In-Reply-To: A<815287.27704.qm@web53910.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Without otherwise attempting to take a position in this learned discussion, I would just point out that if this is to be the standard, it is a standard that much advertising copy will fail to meet. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:51 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 15 00:29:11 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:29:11 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". > >Well, as I learned it, same as "suit." But it is an interesting >question -- are there people out there who would say "follow suite" >with "suite" like "sweet"? I guess I would, if requested to read out loud "follow suite" from one of the many books showing this spelling ... I like spelling pronunciations and I don't know offhand of any "suite" in English which cannot be 'correctly' pronounced "sweet" (I pronounce "bedroom suite" etc. this way too). I'm sure I'm not the only one. Try Googling <<"simply follow sweet">>. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: 10/14/2007 9:22 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 15 00:31:22 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:31:22 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <20071015000749.LDGU20060.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: I can understand the use of both -- although I am not a user of "suite". Perhaps more common in Europe? Doesn't "suit" come from the French "suite"? OED2 says "[a. AF. siwte (12th c.), siute, sute, seute, suite = OF. sieute, later suitte, etc. (mod.F. suite, see suite)" And OED2 has this quotation: "1849 Chambers's Inform. People II. 663/2 If a person happens not to follow suite, or trump a suite." -- although it's its only "follow suite". Joel At 10/14/2007 08:07 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >>OK, I've just been corrected. For some reason, when I was young, I >>learned the spelling "suite" for the sets of cards -- I always >>understood that it was spelled "suite" but pronounced "suit." I'm >>quite sure I read it that way in one of the books that was formative >>for me as a youth, but I can't check, because I've lent my copy. At >>any rate, Mark Mandel has been so good as to point out that I've been >>wrong all these years! (No doubt I had seen it spelled "suit" before, >>but the people who do things like poker standings and ads aren't >>people you trust absolutely in spelling matters, and it's not >>otherwise often written down.) > >I think "suite" for "suit [of cards etc.]" is simply a variant >spelling in modern times. > >Searching Google Books for <<"follow suit">> gives 1890 items while ><<"follow suite">> gives 'only' 415: still far too many for sporadic >error, I think. Of course I didn't examine every item, but quick >browse indicates that the 'literal' (card-playing, domino-playing) >and the 'metaphoric' senses of the phrase both have multiple examples >of each spelling ... and both spellings were used 200 years ago ... >and both are used currently, in seemingly respectable books. > >I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce "suite" in "follow suite". > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: >10/14/2007 9:22 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 15 00:36:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: Q: "bounce" (n) in the 18th century? In-Reply-To: <20071014221835.EFQV20060.mta11.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmho w.nb.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. These 1702 (or 1701, possibly, being in an almanack for 1702) cites for "flip" and "bounce" will go off to the OED. Joel At 10/14/2007 06:18 PM, Doug Wilson wrote: >>What is "bounce" in the following early-18th century verse? A type >>of drink, like flip, or "a loud or audacious boast; swagger", that >>might be uttered by a male shortly after entering a >>tavern? (Unfortunately, the provider writes "Transcriptions of >>colonial sources have been modernized.") >> >>The days are short, the weather's cold >>By tavern fires tales are told >>Some ask for dram when first come in >>Others with flip or bounce begin. > >I assume it's short for "cherry bounce" ("cherry-bounce" in my >poor-man's OED), i.e., a drink, either cherry brandy (as in OED) or >some rum-based concoction (several recipes can be found via Google >Books, although none so early as 1704). > >-- Doug Wilson > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release Date: >10/14/2007 9:22 AM > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:04:23 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:04:23 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world Message-ID: Today ___, tomorrow the world Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) According to a post in the Mudcat Forum (3), it "is a citation from the chorus of a song (from 1932?):" "Es zittern die morschen Knochen" by Hans Baumann (4, 5). The refrain is Wir werden weiter marschieren > Wenn alles in Scherben f?llt, > Denn heute da h?rt uns Deutschland > Und morgen die ganze Welt. > (so, not so much a citation as perhaps an allusion) -- which, if my undergraduate German serves me, means approximately We will march on > (even) if everything falls to pieces, > for today Germany hears us > and tomorrow the whole world. > But "da h?rt uns" 'hears us', as printed here, may well either be a softening of "geh?rt uns", or have been understood as "da geh?rt uns", 'belongs to us' (6). My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original slogan. m a m 1. http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei; scroll down to Slogans 2. http://movies.go.com/tomorrow-the-world/d787709/drama 3. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=55750; search for "translation", in the post by "Wolfgang" of 24 Feb 2003. 4. http://ingeb.org/Lieder/eszitter.html 5. http://www.kollektives-gedaechtnis.de/texte/vor45/lieder.html 6. http://schmautz.gmxhome.de/nachd.htm, bottom of page 7. http://www.valleybooks.net/cgi-bin/valleybooks/14034.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:09:21 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:09:21 -0400 Subject: follow suite >> follow suit In-Reply-To: <200710142350.l9EAl2K5010082@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Google reports ~ 56400 hits for "follow suite", so James has indeed uncovered an eggcorn, just not quite the one he thought he had. m a m On 10/14/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > > this looks like a reverse eggcorn, in which original and reshaped > variant change places (at least in the mind of certain users). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 01:51:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 01:51:57 +0000 Subject: glory In-Reply-To: <204955318-1192404639-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-593868146-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: ronbutters at AOL.COM Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:30:12 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] glory Does this ironic sense of "glory" exist apart from the cliche that JL cites here? If not, it seems to me that dictionaries should NOT mention it. And the ironic reading is usu. so clear from context that even listing the fixed phrase might should be given very low priority. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 14, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] glory OED seems not to recognize the cynical sense of "glory," i.e., "extraordinary publicity; shocking notoriety," as is now so often implied by the cliche' "go out in a blaze of glory." The cliche' appears as early as 1868, though in a perfectly honorable application. The cynical (and perhaps originally ironical) usage seems to be a 20th C. innovation. JL --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 15 02:01:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:01:18 -0700 Subject: antedating "cant" Message-ID: In the obs. sense "A toss, pitch, or throw, which overturns, casts down, etc.... 1736 J. LEWIS Hist. Thanet Gloss., Cant..likewise signifies a cast or throw; ?I gave him a cant?. " From EEBO: 1683 _The Loyal Caution to All the Kings Friends...A Song_ v: But her Husband was Loyal & gave him a _Cant_. JL --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 04:16:26 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:16:26 -0400 Subject: Southwest Salad (Southwest Chicken Salad) Message-ID: SOUTHWEST CHICKEN SALAD--18,800 Google hits SOUTHWESTERN CHICKEN SALAD--10,300 Google hits SOUTHWEST SALAD--16,500 Google hits SOUTHWESTERN SALAD--12,200 Google hits McDonald's added "Southwest Salad" in 2007, so it's time to look at this regional American food term. Perhaps there's OED/DARE interest. I couldn't find the name before the 1970s. Only part of my long entry is below. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/southwest_salad_southwest_chicken_salad_southwestern_chicken_salad/ ... Entry from October 14, 2007 Southwest Salad or Southwestern Salad (Southwest Chicken Salad or Southwestern Chicken Salad) In 2007, McDonald's introduced a "Southwest Salad." In 2003, Jack in the Box introduced a "Southwest Salad." What is this salad that sometimes goes by the names of "Southwestern Salad," "Southwest Chicken Salad" and "Southwestern Chicken Salad"? A "Southwest Salad" usually contains chicken, but may not (hence the name difference). Cilantro, lime or lemon is often added to the chicken. Corn is usually an ingredient in a Southwest Salad, and black beans, tomatoes, peppers, onions and even jack cheese sometimes are included. McDonald's adds tortilla strips; Jack in the Box adds onion rings. A 1972 recipe for "Southwest Salad" included kidney beans, celery, green peppers, onion, and spicy French dressing (no chicken). The Southwest Salad seems to have achieved popularity in the 1980s and 1990s. McDonald's Southwest salad Bold and zest. Just like you. Tangy warm cilantro-lime glazed chicken meets a lively blend of poblano peppers, roasted tomatoes, crispy chili-lime tortilla strips, savory black beans and lime-roasted corn. Shredded cheddar jack cheese and Newman's Own All Natural Southwest Dressing complete the salad that's deliciously, dramatically different. Just like you. Jack In The Box?Our Food Southwest Salad Iceberg/Romaine Lettuce Blend Spring Mix Black Beans Red Onion Rings Roasted Corn Grape Tomatoes Shredded Pepper Jack Cheese on the side: Grilled or Crispy Chicken Strips Creamy Southwest Dressing Spicy Corn Sticks Cooks.com SOUTHWESTERN SALAD 1 (19 oz.) can drained kidney beans 1 (8 3/4 oz.) drained corn 1 lg. chopped tomato 1 sm. chopped green pepper 1 (4 oz.) can chopped mild green chiles (optional) 1 tbsp. chopped fresh coriander (optional) 2 tbsp. chili sauce 2 tbsp. red wine vinegar 1/4 tsp. oregano 1/4 tsp. sugar 1/4 tsp. salt 2 tbsp. oil Combine first 6 ingredients in a large bowl. Combine rest of ingredients. Pour dressing over vegetable mixture. Refrigerate. Serves 8. Cooks.com SOUTHWESTERN SALAD 1 can kidney beans, drained 1 c. cooked corn kernels 1/4 c. chopped red bell peppers (pimiento) 1 green pepper, seeded and chopped 1/2 bunch scallions, chopped 2 tbsp. chopped fresh cilantro Juice of 1/2 lime (or 5 tbsp. vinegar) 1 clove garlic, crushed Salt and pepper to taste Pinch of sugar or a little honey 1/2 head crisp, shredded lettuce Combine beans, corn, peppers, scallions and cilantro. Put dressing ingredients in a jar; shake to mix well. Pour over vegetables and toss. Chill to allow flavors to meld. Line serving dish with shredded lettuce; spoon bean mixture on top. Garnish with lime slices and parsley sprigs. (More on my website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Oct 15 10:31:17 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:31:17 -0400 Subject: glory In-Reply-To: <200710150152.l9EAl2XP010082@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps blaze of glory might be covered under the figurative sense of blaze? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 15 12:05:44 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:05:44 -0400 Subject: antedating "duck tape" 1899 Message-ID: OED has 1902 1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, 1899; pg. 3; Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, Corresponding Secretary of the Era Club. Category: News [col. F] ...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, especially in white and dark blue. 1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: 05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical Newspapers] Adv. Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Oct 15 12:10:50 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:10:50 -0400 Subject: In? On? Google In-Reply-To: <200709291117.l8TAk98U030133@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps getting _on_ an airplane or even a train devolves from getting _on board_, _on-board_, or even _aboard_. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com American Dialect Society writes: >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "David A. Daniel" >Subject: Re: In? On? Google >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Usage of in and on is highly idiomatic. We all know that while normal >people >are waiting in line New Yorkers are waiting on line. And as George Carlin >says (or at least used to say) "You can get ON an airplane if you want to, >but I am going to get IN it." >DAD > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >Of >Mark Mandel >Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:07 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: In? On? Google > > >My guess (or theory or hypothesis if I want to sound more scholarly) is >that >places defined as surfaces take ON and places defined by boundaries on >surfaces take IN: > >on Earth, on the Moon, on small islands (Staten Island) > >in Rochester, in the US, in large islands (Greenland), continents (Europe, >Australia, Africa) > >This mainlander thinks of Hawai`i as a state and so a political entity >rather than a topographic one; similarly e.g. Iceland or Greenland. Do >Hawai`ians say "in" or "on" for Oahu? for the big island (i.e., the island >Hawai`i)? > >m a m > >On 9/25/07, Your Name wrote: >> >> I've always been fascinated by how we choose "in" vs. "on." I live ON >> the >> earth, but I live IN Rochester - which is obviously ON the earth. I'd >> never >> say I lived ON Rochester or IN the earth. I found the info IN the >> dictionary, >> but ON the internet (or on Google). Is that because the info was ON >the >> pages, but the pages were contained INside the book covers? While the >> Google >> info appears ON my monitor screen? >> >> Anyone who can shed any light on how we choose IN vs. ON? >> >> Rosemarie >> >> The worst thing about censorship is ************************** ! >> >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's new at >> http://www.aol.com >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Oct 15 15:16:20 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:16:20 -0500 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710142016.l9EB7mWO023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall > that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was > the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that > asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" > I don't think that "scream" meaning "fast" is all that uncommon. I remember buying a computer about 1990 that was a "screamer". Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From indigo at WELL.COM Mon Oct 15 15:22:09 2007 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:22:09 -0700 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" Message-ID: How about "screaming" as an equivalent to fabulous, great, amazing? That's been around for a while. "That party was screamin'!" In particular, I remember wearing a spectacular pair of striped pants to work one day (Oakland CA, circa 2002) & my client admired them, saying "those pants are screaming!" That comment stood out in my mind because I don't usually wear screaming clothes (flamboyant, colorful, &c.), not because I thought screaming was a strange word to use. What can I say, I was proud of those pants! >Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is >destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have >suddenly been extinguished. > > They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in >the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy >seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, >like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not >trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free >to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not >"destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a >freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. > > If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in >brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the >semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively >than I thought. > > Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice >cream they want. > > JL > > >James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Harbeck >Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >>Blacula, Speak"? >> I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging > >An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry >typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible >nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a >refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry >more of a challenge. > >The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the >continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat >camp overtones, though. > >James Harbeck. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 15:56:53 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:56:53 EDT Subject: blaze of glory Message-ID: The mind of a true lexicographer at work. Clearly the Dictionary Society of North America knew what they were doing when they elected DB president. I suggest that this idea appears to me to scream out for implementation. In a message dated 10/15/07 6:31:28 AM, barnhart at highlands.com writes: > Perhaps blaze of glory might be covered under the figurative sense of > blaze? > > Regards, > David > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Oct 15 16:19:59 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:19:59 +0000 Subject: semantic drift: "scream" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This sense of "scream" is already recognized by those slang dictionaries that have managed to get to the letter S! Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Indigo Som Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:22:09 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] semantic drift: "scream" How about "screaming" as an equivalent to fabulous, great, amazing? That's been around for a while. "That party was screamin'!" In particular, I remember wearing a spectacular pair of striped pants to work one day (Oakland CA, circa 2002) & my client admired them, saying "those pants are screaming!" That comment stood out in my mind because I don't usually wear screaming clothes (flamboyant, colorful, &c.), not because I thought screaming was a strange word to use. What can I say, I was proud of those pants! >Gentlemen, please. My posts do not assert that advertising is >destroying our language or that earlier meanings of "scream" have >suddenly been extinguished. > > They say instead that the neutral or positive use of "scream" in >the Dell ad is markedly odd. Whoever is behind the advertising copy >seems to have picked "scream" because earlier advertising staples, >like "proclaim," have been sucked dry, although those of us not >trying to flog anything to America's trendoids remain perfectly free >to use them. And I said "drift," not "shift," and "inflation," not >"destruction." I would mark Dell's "scream" as "poor diction" on a >freshman theme and frown deeply while doing so. > > If I'm the only one who finds this use of "scream" peculiar in >brainstormed, vetted, and edited prose, so be it. But if I am, the >semantics of "scream" are indeed shifting, just more extensively >than I thought. > > Next time I hear somebody screaming, I'll just assume it's ice >cream they want. > > JL > > >James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: James Harbeck >Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>So "Scream, Blacula, Scream" implies no more horror than "Speak, >>Blacula, Speak"? >> I stand corrected, but you guys must find poetry to be unusually challenging > >An interesting contention, given that an understanding of poetry >typically requires knowledge and understanding of all the possible >nuances and connotations of a given word. I would think that a >refusal to accept certain meanings that are in use would make poetry >more of a challenge. > >The use of "scream" you cite is fairly common in the parts of the >continent I've lived in. No horror is required. It often has somewhat >camp overtones, though. > >James Harbeck. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > >--------------------------------- >Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 15 17:36:50 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:36:50 -0400 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) Message-ID: COWBOY CUT + STEAK--737 Google hits COWBOY RIBEYE--9,130 Google hits COWBOY RIB STEAK--177 Google hits "Cowby Cut" ("Cowboy Ribeye") is not in OED. Perhaps OED could consider it in the "ribeye" entry revision. It's be featured in my Texas Food Museum, that I gotta build myself brick by brick, with absolutely no help from anyone in this darned state... ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cowboy_cut_cowboy_ribeye_steak_cowboy_rib_steak/ ... Entry from October 15, 2007 Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye Steak; Cowboy Rib Steak) A "cowboy cut" is a cut of steak with the bone in (for use by cowboys as a handle). The term "cowboy cut" appeared in the late 1960s and 1970s; Wrangler introduced its "cowboy cut" jeans before the steak cut had its name. The cowboy cut is usually for rib-eye steaks, and they're often called "cowboy ribeyes" or "cowboy rib steaks." Montana Legend Natural Angus Beef Ribeye Steak Cut from the middle (or "eye") of the rib, these ample, well-marbled steaks have long been a staple at distinctive meals. The ribeye comes from the tail-end of the loin, next to the New York Strip. This boneless cut is a more robust steak, and it is sometimes called the "cowboy cut." With its generous marbling, it can take a little more heat and be served medium to medium-rare. Smithfield Collection - Gourmet Steaks & Beef Cowboy-Cut Rib Eyes NEW! A frenched bone-in Rib Eye from Smithfield Beef is what Paula chooses when she craves a good ol' steak on the grill. Perfectly marbled like a rib-eye should, incredibly tender and juicy, this is one hunk of beef! Just ask Paula. 14 oz. each. Ruth Chris Steak House Cowboy Ribeye A huge bone-in version of this USDA Prime cut. 22 April 1967, The Argus (Fremont, CA), Family Weekly, pg. 15, col. 1: I have, for example, learned to be wary of such menu items as cowboy-cut T-bone steak, Santa Fe third-degree Chili, and fried reconstituted oysters. 14 March 1969, Oakland (CA) Tribune, pg. E53, col. 5 ad: Cowboy Cut Prime Rib Dinner on Saturday. (Roy Rogers' Apple Valley Inn?ed.) 3 October 1969, Valley News (Van Nuys, CA), pg. 7, col. 1: ...and the Gold Rush, High Sierra Mountain trout and pepper cowboy cut sirloin steak. 20 February 1972, Yuma (AZ) Daily Sun, Dining & Dancing, pg. 10, col. 4 ad: Charbroiled Cowboy Cut T-Bone Steak $2.95 (Farm House?ed.) 14 June 1973, Long Beach (CA) Press-Telegram, pg. A33, col. 2 ad: Curly's Giant Cowboy Cut Prime Rib Dinner $2.95 (Curly Jones?ed.) 15 August 1973, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 29 ad: COWBOY Cut of Cross Cut STEAK...lb. 1.44 31 October 1975, Albuquerque (NM) Journal, pg. F7, col. 1 ad: PRIME RIB Ladies Cut $4.95 Cowboy Cut $6.50 (Chez Hubert?ed.) 9 April 1976, Yuma (AZ) Daily Sun, pg. 45?, col. 2 ad: Cowboy Rib Steak 18 oz. ... 3.75 (Brownie's Pit?ed.) 7 December 1977, El Paso (TX) Herald-Post, pg. C11, col. 5 ad: Cowboy Cut ...$5.50 Cowgirl Cut...4.50 Tenderfoot...3.95 Rib-Eye Steak...5.95 (Upper Valley Cattle Company?ed.) Google Groups: dfw.eats Newsgroups: dfw.eats From: mpe... at hamon.swmed.edu (Michael Perry) Date: 1996/04/11 Subject: Re: Going to Star Canyon? My main course was the Cowboy Ribeye which is a grilled marinated ribeye steak smothered in onion rings. This is supposed to be one of the house specialities. The beef was tender and juicy and the marinade was very good. Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Cuchulain Libby" Date: 2000/06/25 Subject: Re: Ruth's Chris style steaks? Just et a 2.1 lb 'cowboy cut' [little rib bone attached] rib-eye. Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Cuchulain Libby" Date: 2000/06/27 Subject: Re: Ruth's Chris style steaks? i say this because I found a supply of 21-day wet aged rib-eyes cut 'cowboy cut' with the little bone attached, like someone will really use it like a handle. Kinda cute tho' Google Groups: rec.arts.disney.parks Newsgroups: rec.arts.disney.parks From: i... at aol.comnospam (IMBE) Date: 31 Jul 2001 14:37:23 GMT Local: Tues, Jul 31 2001 10:37 am Subject: IMBE's Dining Report 1 (Liberty Tree Tavern, Concourse Steakhouse, Kona Cafe, CA Grill) For dinner, everyone had the special of the night - a "Cowboy Ribeye" with Mashed Potatoes. Now the mashed were great - the parmesan type from Chef Mickey's! LOL The steak wasn't of a bad quality, it just had virtually NO seasonings on it. Google Groups: rec.collecting.coins Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins From: "Fred A. Murphy" Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 22:47:43 GMT Local: Tues, Sep 4 2001 6:47 pm Subject: Re: are my National Bicentennial Medals Gold? Many years ago, the standard for a "cowboy cut" steak was that you could cut a slot in it, and the steak was (better be) as thick as the coin was wide. Google Groups: memphis.dining Newsgroups: memphis.dining From: "Kilroy238" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:32:51 -0500 Local: Wed, Sep 17 2003 11:32 am Subject: Re: Who has the best? When you go to Ruth's Chris be sure to take your wallet Doc. Last time I was there had a cowboy cut 32oz bone in ribeye and a 2 1/2 lbs lobster was about $125. Google Books Frommer's Portable Cayman Islands by Darwin Porter and Danforth Prince Wiley Publishing, Inc. 2003 Pg. 174: The most frequently ordered local favorite is the "cowboy cut" (16 or 18 oz.) of rib-eye dipped in blackened spices, pan seared, and topped with grilled onions. Google Books Flavourville by Lesley Chesterman ECW Press 2003 Pg. 24: Main courses included grilled black sea bass, a rack of Rimouski lamb, and a "Cowboy Cut" 20-ounce rib steak. Google Books New Mexico by Brian Bell Insight Guides 2004 Pg. 326: The menu changes often, but a recent installment included chile-glazed beef short ribs, black truffle risotto, scallops a la vera cruzana and the venerable "cowboy cut"?an aged Angus beef ribeye. (Coyote Cafe in Santa Fe, NM?ed.) Boston Globe Archives MENUSPEAK Published on August 3, 2005 Author(s): Joe Yonan As far as butchers and many restaurant suppliers are concerned, a "cowboy steak" is a bone-in ribeye in which the bone is "Frenched," or scraped bare, creating a handle perfect for a cowpoke with no time for knife or fork. Boston's South End is no Wild West, but the Southwestern restaurant Masa gives its own expansive definition to the cowboy cut idea. At Masa, two of the most popular dishes take the name: one is a pork chop, Chowhound - Chicago Area My bone in rib-eye (aka the cowboy cut or Chicago bone in cut) are really just (cooked) prime rib cut to 3/4" thickness and charred to finish. abf005 Apr 25, 2007 12:30PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 15 23:42:49 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:42:49 -0400 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forget the cowboy cut--what else do you have on fried reconstituted oysters? Are those sea creatures or the mountain variety, and what (one wonders) caused the need for reconstitution? Inquiring palates want to know! LH At 1:36 PM -0400 10/15/07, Barry Popik wrote: >COWBOY CUT + STEAK--737 Google hits >COWBOY RIBEYE--9,130 Google hits >COWBOY RIB STEAK--177 Google hits > >"Cowby Cut" ("Cowboy Ribeye") is not in OED. Perhaps OED could >consider it in the "ribeye" entry revision. It's be featured in my >Texas Food Museum, that I gotta build myself brick by brick, with >absolutely no help from anyone in this darned state... >... >... >... >http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cowboy_cut_cowboy_ribeye_steak_cowboy_rib_steak/ >... >Entry from October 15, 2007 >Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye Steak; Cowboy Rib Steak) >A "cowboy cut" is a cut of steak with the bone in (for use by cowboys >as a handle). The term "cowboy cut" appeared in the late 1960s and >1970s; Wrangler introduced its "cowboy cut" jeans before the steak cut >had its name. The cowboy cut is usually for rib-eye steaks, and >they're often called "cowboy ribeyes" or "cowboy rib steaks." >... >22 April 1967, The Argus (Fremont, CA), Family Weekly, pg. 15, col. 1: >I have, for example, learned to be wary of such menu items as >cowboy-cut T-bone steak, Santa Fe third-degree Chili, and fried >reconstituted oysters. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 03:26:57 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:26:57 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism Message-ID: In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 04:07:14 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:07:14 -0400 Subject: "Strew" [stru] v. [stro] redux, sort of Message-ID: A while ago, we discussed a non-standard pronunciation such that "strew" has a conjugation identical to that of "sew." While watching _Discovery Health_,I heard a doctor refer to a disease called [spro]. I've heard of a disease spelled "sprue," preumably pronounced [spru]. The other doctors referred to [spro] as [spru]. Google shows "sprew" as a very rare alternative spelling of "sprue." Unfortunately, there's no way to tell whether rhe doctor who used the pronunciation [spro] also used the spelling "sprew." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 04:11:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: "Gray Rape"--I just don't like this one...Sorry for the bad intro to the previous post, but I'd spent much time researching "cowboy cut" (I now have a "cowboy-cut jeans" entry on my wenbsite as well) and the wife was kicking me out the door. ... ... ... http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form-of-date-rape/ October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? By Sewell Chan When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. "Are you talking about the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what." A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of "gray rape" ? and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate White, editor in chief of Cosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 05:36:27 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:36:27 -0400 Subject: "Nachos" (1948, San Antonio Light) Message-ID: NewspaperArchive just expanded its database of the San Antonio Light newspaper. I found nice "nachos," but no luck with Margarita. ... ... ,.. (OED) nacho, n. orig. U.S. A tortilla chip, typically topped with melted cheese, chilli sauce, etc. Usu. in pl.: a Texan or Mexican dish consisting of these, freq. served as a snack or appetizer with savoury dips. 1949 J. TRAHEY Taste of Texas 27 He returned carrying a large dish of Nachos Especiales. 'These Nachos,' said Pedro, 'will help El Capitansoon he will forget his troubles for nachos make one romantic.' ... ... ... http://www.newspaperarchive.com/NewContent.aspx Available 10/16/2007 Title: San Antonio Light, The Country: United States Of America State: Texas City: San Antonio Page Count: 30914 Date(s): 1947 - 1959 ... ... ... 28 January 1948, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 14A, col. 4 ad: Mexican Food at its best! LATIN QUARTER MEXICAN RESTAURANT 305 W. Josephine "NACHOS" (Mexican Hors-D'-Oeuvres)...35c Here is a real dainty! Golden fried tortilla strips, deliciously spiced, topped with mellow, melted cheese and garnished with chili jalapeno bits. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 05:54:58 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 01:54:58 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710160327.l9G0kj2F003447@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "S?an O Coile?in" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism derive = > from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of heat and = > passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples of "teas = > ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know how good a = > source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? = > Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. > =20 > =20 > John Baker > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 16 13:41:17 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:41:17 -0400 Subject: antedating "jerry" building 1859; jerry built 1860 Message-ID: OED has 1869 for jerry-built; 1885 for jerry building 1859 The New York Herald, (New York, NY) Thursday, November 10, 1859; pg. 4; col F [19th C US Newspapers] The Great Eastern and Her Future Liverpool Opinion of the Big Ship Category: Shipping news [19th C US Newspapers] [from the Liverpool Albion, Oct.22] ...the decks...will have to be replaced...her sleeping cabins are wretched, dark, badly ventilated dens, and must all come down. In short, she is nothing more nor less than a gigantic imposture below, a fit sample of Thames "jerry" building fixings, the whole demonstrating that limited liability can coexist with unlimited folly and extravagance....Liverpool or Clyde shipbuilders would never have turned out such work. 1860 Tom Rocket &c. &c. &c. (London: Ward and Lock, 1860) By Albany de Grenier Fonblanque, Jun. [Google Books full view] in the story "Sebastopol Villa" [according to the front matter, reprinted from a periodical] pages 63-4: He had tried other building speculations, had run up other "jerry-built" houses, and had failed utterly, hopelessly. Mr. Peter Specie seized his houses, including Sebastopol Villa, for the ground rent, and let them to [p. 64] people who believed in cheap tenements. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 16 14:20:37 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:20:37 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such a drug becomes a date rape. --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >From: Barry Popik >Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >... >http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form-of-date-rape/ >October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >By Sewell Chan > >When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. "Are you talking about >the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. > > >An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted what." > >A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of "gray rape" ? and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 14:36:57 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) Message-ID: SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits ... ... This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation born in the ... First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. ... ... (GOOGLE GROUPS) RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors stand apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About the Pew Internet & American Life Project http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 14:32:47 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: A<82745f630710152254w9acbe90le59707c4b8c5e537@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Cassidy's claim is that "teas" is pronounced "j'as" in the Ulster and North Mayo dialect, which he describes as one of the three living dialects of Irish. I don't have much doubt that if Irishmen said "j'as'm," with a voiceless s, Americans could convert that to jazm. But I'm left with several questions: 1. Does "teas ioma" really mean heat, passion, semen in Irish? Under the circumstances, I would think we would want more than Cassidy's say-so. 2. It's all very well to say that "j'as'm" could become jasm, but the supposed Irish phrase is "teas ioma." Even with the t taking a j sound, how plausible is that change in pronunciation? 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from somewhere. Thoughts? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "S?an O Coile?in" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive = from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and = passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples > of "teas = ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know > how good a = source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? > = Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Oct 16 14:18:39 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:18:39 -0500 Subject: Cowboy Cut (Cowboy Ribeye) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710152343.l9FJtZe2021967@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE If you take a steer to the large-animal vet, and tell him that you want to make it back into a bull, the vet will reconstitute his oysters. > > Forget the cowboy cut--what else do you have on fried > reconstituted oysters? Are those sea creatures or the > mountain variety, and what (one wonders) caused the need for > reconstitution? > Inquiring palates want to know! > > LH > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 15:36:40 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:36:40 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161436.l9GAkUnd032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this official? Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > ... > ... > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > ... > ... > ... > (GOOGLE NEWS) > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > born in the ... > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > ... > ... > (GOOGLE NEWS) > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > ... > ... > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors stand > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About the Pew > Internet & American Life Project http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 16 15:36:32 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:36:32 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/16/2007 10:32 AM, John Baker wrote, asking for thoughts: > 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug > Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that > was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of > Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a > vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before > that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their > influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? The following almost certainly does not affect the implausibility of an Irish origin, but: There certainly were Irish immigrants -- and frequently deplored -- in the early 18th century; in particular, there was resistance to their coming into Boston between 1715 and 1725. (Colonials deploring the Irish goes back to the 1630s.) As for quantity, "By far the greatest number of [indentured] servants and redemptioners came from that country during the eighteenth century." (References upon request.) As for the Franklin family, Ben was certainly familiar with the vulgar tongue -- see the 1736-7 "Drinkers Dictionary" (even though I have deprived him of its authorship). Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Oct 16 16:03:35 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:03:35 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161536.l9GAp6oQ000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word around 30 years ago. I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", because I have never understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguages.wordpress.com Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this official? > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 16:15:36 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:15:36 -0700 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710161437.l9GAnrUB003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Further questions that must be addressed are, first of all, even if "teas ioma" means, as Cassidy asserts, "an abundance of heat and passion," was this phrase likely to be heard in common use? Or was it in literary use only? Is its existence as a grammatical Irish collocation even attested before the mid-19th C.? And if it is attested, is it ever "figuratively" used for "semen," as Cassidy claims, or is that his own interpretation to "prove" the point? He doesn't say. JL "Baker, John" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Baker, John" Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cassidy's claim is that "teas" is pronounced "j'as" in the Ulster and North Mayo dialect, which he describes as one of the three living dialects of Irish. I don't have much doubt that if Irishmen said "j'as'm," with a voiceless s, Americans could convert that to jazm. But I'm left with several questions: 1. Does "teas ioma" really mean heat, passion, semen in Irish? Under the circumstances, I would think we would want more than Cassidy's say-so. 2. It's all very well to say that "j'as'm" could become jasm, but the supposed Irish phrase is "teas ioma." Even with the t taking a j sound, how plausible is that change in pronunciation? 3. How plausible is an Irish derivation anyway? Doug Wilson found an example of "gism" (apparently meaning nectar) that was probably written before 1800, by a member of the family of Benjamin Franklin. The word is, however, denounced as a vulgarism. I suppose that there were some Irish immigrants before that date, and even before the Revolution, but would their influence have been great enough to have words adopted by the Franklins? On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from somewhere. Thoughts? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 1:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism An obvious problemis that of phonology. In the Munster dialect, "teas" is pronounced approximately as "chass." Can it be shown that, e.g. that palatized /t'/ in Irish is regularly reflected in English as "j" and that Irish /s/ regularly reflected as English [z]. Then there's the problem of the multitude of dialects in Irish. The most widely-spoken dialect outside of the Aran Islands is that of Munster, of which my teacher, John "S?an O Coile?in" Collins, is a native. But this dialect is not the basis of the national standard dialect. But Cassidy, as far as I know,has never mentioned what dialect he's using as the basis of his etymologies nor has he attempted to deal with phonology at all. If the phonetics and semantics of some Irish word approximate the phonetics and semantics of some American-English slang term, then the Irish word is the etymon of the American slang term. But these are merely "faux amis." Many years ago, someone - Mario Pei? - gave the example of the words for "brush" in English and in Kurdish, the latter, like English an Indo-European language. The words are amazingly similar and, given the fact that both languages are Indo-European, one might conclude that the two words are historically related. But historical phonology shows that this cannot possibly be the case. -Wilson On 10/15/07, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel = > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive = from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and = passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any examples > of "teas = ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I don't know > how good a = source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on this theory? > = Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" category. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 16 16:21:42 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:21:42 -0400 Subject: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9E40@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: There's also "a scream [of laughter]" Have you met her? She's a scream. Or, That movie is a scream. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" Date: Monday, October 15, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: semantic drif t: "scream" (UNCLASSIFIED) To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > > > > > > The only other advertising example of "scream" I can recall > > that was plainly intended to carry positive connotations was > > the sports car ad in Playboy in the mid sixties that > > asserted, "We made it hot! Now you can make it scream!" > > > > I don't think that "scream" meaning "fast" is all that uncommon. > I remember buying a computer about 1990 that was a "screamer". > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slang at UCHICAGO.EDU Tue Oct 16 17:01:50 2007 From: slang at UCHICAGO.EDU (Sarah Lang) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:01:50 -0600 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710161420.l9GAkUlT032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- rape" drunk was used. Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to give consent. (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and its meanings or usages justice.) S. On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days > ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging > and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, > at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the > term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, > possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? > > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the > informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such > a drug becomes a date rape. > > --Charlie > ____________________________________________________________ > > ---- Original message ---- >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >> From: Barry Popik >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> ... >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- >> of-date-rape/ >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >> By Sewell Chan >> >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. >> "Are you talking about >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. >> >> >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted >> what." >> >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of >> "gray rape" ? and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 16 17:17:00 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:17:00 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2007, at 23:26, Baker, John wrote: > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any > examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I > don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on > this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" > category. That's the weakness of his Irish, too, that he's not working from reliable source material. It doesn't require a fluent or native understanding of Irish (which Cassidy does not have--this an important point that he often lets go unexplained) to see that he's taking words that have complex senses and cherry-picking the one that most suits his purposes. The Irish definitions he gives are little better than glosses and do not show a complex understanding of context nor frequency, neither presently nor historically. He's done no corpus analysis. At best, he seems to have plundered dictionaries, and when it has suited him, he has adjusted his plunderings to make the meanings broad enough to support his theories. What he's also done is found writers of Irish heritage who have used the English forms of the words, going by surname only in some cases, in others choosing people who live or had lived or could have lived in a region that was widely settled by Irish or Scots-Irish. He's done little to verify whether those people he is quoting had any knowledge of Irish, even just an old granny who might have taught them a few expressions. He seems to be working under the assumption that some Irish just lingered in the air. Then in the cases that I have seen (I have not read this book thoroughly), he has chosen as supporting evidence English-language quotes that contain the *English* word under discussion. I have yet to see a single one of his quotes include any form of the *Irish* word in an *English-language* context, except when he's quoting from dictionaries which, in all cases, are talking about an Irish meaning rather than the supposed English meaning. Even in the completely Irish quotes, the forms of the word that are cited are usually very different from the form that was supposedly transformed into an English word. Many of his Irish forms should be prefixed with an asterisk because he has not found them in the wild but merely postulated their existence. To put it another way, he's failed to find early uses of the transformed or transforming terms--that is, a variety of phonetic or Anglicized spellings that resemble the terms as we know them today, i.e., word forms somewhere on the continuum of change-- that might demonstrate that they were earliest, or nearly earliest, used by Irish-speakers or people of provable Irish heritage or in direct contact with Irish people. His citation evidence is paltry and incomplete. The main thing that bothers me about most of his theories, besides his overall unwillingness to express doubt and caveats about them and his apparent inability to do the work required to falsify his own theories, is that in cultural overlaps and contact situations in which words are borrowed there tends to be written evidence of it. This happened repeatedly with contact contacts by the English, French, and Spanish settlers with Native Americans in the New World, and it continues to happen where Spanish and English rub up against each other today. So, there might be texts that show this happening. In those cases, we might find borrowed words set off by quotes or dashes, or explained as "as my gram used to say," or "as we used to say," or even given plainly as a word from another language, and so forth. Primary source material needs to be found and examined: letters, books, diaries, what have you. Certainly, across the whole of his book "How the Irish Invented Slang," there should be lots and lots of this sort of "language contact" evidence, but I've yet to see any (again, I have not read the book thoroughly). Of course, if no such texts are found, or the words are not found in them, then the theories are unproven, and that is that. Cassidy has promoted his unsubstantiated theories so widely that he cannot back down now without looking foolish. Besides that, substantiation is a lot of work, and as we have seen repeatedly, those would-be scholars who "cry Wolof" have little stomach for the tedium required to prove their theories. Instead, they do mini-book tours of Ireland where they are lauded by well- meaning folk who don't know better than to trust. For an example typical of his scholarship, see his claims about "bunkum." He says that the congressman from Buncombe County lived in North Carolina, which had a Scots-Gaelic and Irish-speaking population, which, somehow supported by information gathered from a 2005 Scotsman newspaper article that said Dizzy Gillespie's family from NC and Alabama were African-American Gaelic speakers, means that "Buncombe" comes from "buanchumadh," which he defines as "a long made- up story, an endless invention." His other evidence is three uses of "bunk" in the plays of Eugene O'Neill, one from 1939 which has it as "de old Irish bunk"--the oldest cite he has, 89 years later than OED's first cite. He has no citations spelled "buanchumadh" at all, neither in English nor Irish. Nowhere does he attempt to explain the early expression "talking to Buncombe," nor the capitalization or spelling of Buncombe in early uses, nor the existence of Colonel Edward Buncombe for which the county is named. This is in the same entry in which he casually throws in unsupported Irish etymologies for "swank" and "to dig=understand." By the way, there are a number of old full-text English-Irish dictionaries at Google Books that might be helpful. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 17:19:36 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:19:36 -0400 Subject: Cassidy Message-ID: I sent some of our recent posts to a former colleague who's an Irish/Celtic specialist (though not primarily a linguist). He writes: David: Forgive me if I have said this before. Daniel Cassidy's reputation is zilch in Irish American scholarship. The two leading journals, NEW HIBERNIA REVIEW and EIRE-IRELAND, have both rejected him. He takes such rejection with vituperation. He's a credulous empire-builder. That does not mean there is not much influence of spoken Irish (Gaelic) on spoken English. One is the lenition of initial B's in some NYC place names, "Vrooklyn" for "Brooklyn." As for vocabulary, slob and phony are pretty well accepted, I think. There is other Irish influence not from spoken Irish. Stephen Foster was Irish (and gay), and the words and music for "Dixie" were written by Irishmen in New York. You probably know about the naughty implications of the title "Dixie." None of this means Cassidy is right. Best, ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:32:58 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:32:58 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's not clear what the (t) in m-w's pronunciation means - is the 't' optional, or does this indicate placing the tongue against the teeth but going to the 's' without pronouncing, or very weakly pronouncing, the 't'? --- Tom Zurinskas wrote: ... > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com > does not pronounce it.... James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU Tue Oct 16 17:46:59 2007 From: t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU (Terry Irons) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:46:59 -0400 Subject: AS indexing In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044B9EBE@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Colleagues, I was doing a bibliography search using the MLA index yesterday, and I noticed that the search was not returning an information about articles published in American Speech for 2005 to the present. Does anyone know whether MLA stopped indexing American Speech or who bibliography other than MLA does index the journal? -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:49:19 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:49:19 -0700 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: <200710161717.l9GAnrj7003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Most eloquent, Grant. JL Grant Barrett wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Grant Barrett Subject: Re: Jasm/Jism/Gism ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 15, 2007, at 23:26, Baker, John wrote: > In addition to his theory that jazz derives from Irish teas, Daniel > Cassidy argues in How the Irish Invented Slang that jasm and gism > derive from Irish teas ioma, which he defines as "an abundance of > heat and passion; fig. semen." Google does not present any > examples of "teas ioma" that do not come from Cassidy. However, I > don't know how good a source Google is for Irish. Any thoughts on > this theory? Jasm/jism/gism currently are in the "origin unknown" > category. That's the weakness of his Irish, too, that he's not working from reliable source material. It doesn't require a fluent or native understanding of Irish (which Cassidy does not have--this an important point that he often lets go unexplained) to see that he's taking words that have complex senses and cherry-picking the one that most suits his purposes. The Irish definitions he gives are little better than glosses and do not show a complex understanding of context nor frequency, neither presently nor historically. He's done no corpus analysis. At best, he seems to have plundered dictionaries, and when it has suited him, he has adjusted his plunderings to make the meanings broad enough to support his theories. What he's also done is found writers of Irish heritage who have used the English forms of the words, going by surname only in some cases, in others choosing people who live or had lived or could have lived in a region that was widely settled by Irish or Scots-Irish. He's done little to verify whether those people he is quoting had any knowledge of Irish, even just an old granny who might have taught them a few expressions. He seems to be working under the assumption that some Irish just lingered in the air. Then in the cases that I have seen (I have not read this book thoroughly), he has chosen as supporting evidence English-language quotes that contain the *English* word under discussion. I have yet to see a single one of his quotes include any form of the *Irish* word in an *English-language* context, except when he's quoting from dictionaries which, in all cases, are talking about an Irish meaning rather than the supposed English meaning. Even in the completely Irish quotes, the forms of the word that are cited are usually very different from the form that was supposedly transformed into an English word. Many of his Irish forms should be prefixed with an asterisk because he has not found them in the wild but merely postulated their existence. To put it another way, he's failed to find early uses of the transformed or transforming terms--that is, a variety of phonetic or Anglicized spellings that resemble the terms as we know them today, i.e., word forms somewhere on the continuum of change-- that might demonstrate that they were earliest, or nearly earliest, used by Irish-speakers or people of provable Irish heritage or in direct contact with Irish people. His citation evidence is paltry and incomplete. The main thing that bothers me about most of his theories, besides his overall unwillingness to express doubt and caveats about them and his apparent inability to do the work required to falsify his own theories, is that in cultural overlaps and contact situations in which words are borrowed there tends to be written evidence of it. This happened repeatedly with contact contacts by the English, French, and Spanish settlers with Native Americans in the New World, and it continues to happen where Spanish and English rub up against each other today. So, there might be texts that show this happening. In those cases, we might find borrowed words set off by quotes or dashes, or explained as "as my gram used to say," or "as we used to say," or even given plainly as a word from another language, and so forth. Primary source material needs to be found and examined: letters, books, diaries, what have you. Certainly, across the whole of his book "How the Irish Invented Slang," there should be lots and lots of this sort of "language contact" evidence, but I've yet to see any (again, I have not read the book thoroughly). Of course, if no such texts are found, or the words are not found in them, then the theories are unproven, and that is that. Cassidy has promoted his unsubstantiated theories so widely that he cannot back down now without looking foolish. Besides that, substantiation is a lot of work, and as we have seen repeatedly, those would-be scholars who "cry Wolof" have little stomach for the tedium required to prove their theories. Instead, they do mini-book tours of Ireland where they are lauded by well- meaning folk who don't know better than to trust. For an example typical of his scholarship, see his claims about "bunkum." He says that the congressman from Buncombe County lived in North Carolina, which had a Scots-Gaelic and Irish-speaking population, which, somehow supported by information gathered from a 2005 Scotsman newspaper article that said Dizzy Gillespie's family from NC and Alabama were African-American Gaelic speakers, means that "Buncombe" comes from "buanchumadh," which he defines as "a long made- up story, an endless invention." His other evidence is three uses of "bunk" in the plays of Eugene O'Neill, one from 1939 which has it as "de old Irish bunk"--the oldest cite he has, 89 years later than OED's first cite. He has no citations spelled "buanchumadh" at all, neither in English nor Irish. Nowhere does he attempt to explain the early expression "talking to Buncombe," nor the capitalization or spelling of Buncombe in early uses, nor the existence of Colonel Edward Buncombe for which the county is named. This is in the same entry in which he casually throws in unsupported Irish etymologies for "swank" and "to dig=understand." By the way, there are a number of old full-text English-Irish dictionaries at Google Books that might be helpful. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org --------------------------------- Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 17:50:40 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:50:40 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <4714E0D7.2030609@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Tidal wave was the popular name in use when I was a youth back in the 50's, but I think those in the know have long eschewed this moniker for seismic sea wave. I have no documentation, but I think 'tsunami' has come into more widespread use in the past 50 years or so, basically since the end of WWII because of the more open exchange of scientific knowledge between Japan and the west (and because 'tsunami' sounds less mundane than 'seismic sea wave'). "Tidal wave: An erroneous syn. of both 'storm surge' and 'tsunami'" American Geologic Institute Glossary of Geology, 1980 --- Benjamin Barrett wrote: > I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word > around 30 years ago. > I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", > because I have never > understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 18:36:06 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:36:06 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? Message-ID: MOP SAUCE--14,800 Google hits MOPPING SAUCE--2,880 Google hits MOPPIN SAUCE--1,350 Google hits I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' comments appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ ... Entry from October 16, 2007 Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, but Jetton didn't invent "mop." The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and salt. About.com: Barbecues & Grilling Mop from Derrick Riches The baste of Barbecue When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, "mop". Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. Food Network Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay Episode: Austin (Texas) During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas Style Mop Sauce. 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers 6 ounces yellow mustard 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce 4 ounces honey Pinch hot chile flakes 4 ounces wine vinegar 1 white onion chopped 2 lemons, sliced Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes during cooking. Cooks.com TEXAS MOP SAUCE 1/2 c. tomato sauce 1 c. strong black coffee 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce 1 tbsp. sugar 1 tbsp. salt 1/2 c. butter Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. Cooks.com TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE 2 c. beef stock 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco Black pepper 1 tsp. chili powder 1 1/2 tsp. salt 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce 1/3 c. oil 1/2 tsp. garlic powder 1 tsp. paprika Crushed red pepper (to taste) Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! About.com: Barbecues & Grilling Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce >From Paul Williams Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't have to worry about it burning. INGREDIENTS: 2 cups vinegar 1 cup olive oil 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce 1/2 cup water 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half 2 tablespoons hot sauce 6 bay leaves, crushed 2 cloves garlic, minced 1 tablespoon paprika 1 tablespoon chili powder PREPARATION: Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. Free Cooking Recipes Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue Category: Sauces Ingredients and Directions 1 c Strong black coffee 1 c Tomato catsup 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper 1 tb Salt 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce 1/4 c Butter or margerine 1 tb Sugar Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will make you throw rocks at steak! The BBQ Report Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious that anyone will guess your secret. Ingredients 3 cups of Dr. Pepper 2 tablespoons vegetable oil Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. Associated Content: The People's Media Company Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine 1/2 pound butter 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine 2 large white onions chopped fine 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce 1/2 dozen lemons 4 tablespoons salt 3 tablespoons black pepper 2 tablespoons chile powder 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce 2 tablespoons dry mustard 3 cloves garlic Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup and spices. Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. For mop sauce: 2 cups above sauce 2 cups water 2 cups cooking oil 1 cup vinegar Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.?Ralph M. Coble, 3559 Lawnview. 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. 10, col. 4: MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. 4 quarts bone stock 3 tablespoons salt 3 tablespoons dry mustard 2 tablespoons garlic powder 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf 2 tablespoons chili powder 3 tablespoons paprika 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce 2 pints Worcestershire sauce 1 pint vinegar 1 pint oil 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup?buy good stout beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, it's delicious. 3 bay leaves Salt and pepper 2 quarts bone stock 6 pounds beef brisket Mop Sauce Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also serve this with Barbecue Sauce. (...) Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine in association with Pocket Books. (More on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:00:56 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: "It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 16 19:05:50 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:05:50 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: A<705370.32611.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Excellent insights all around. "Ioma" does seem to mean something like "full" or "abundant," but I see no evidence that "teas ioma" was a common or even an existing collocation, much less that there was any plausible way that it could have been transformed into "jasm" or "jism." Incidentally, I think it's unfortunate that Cassidy's book so far seems to have been reviewed only by those who have no knowledge in the area. I know that debunking is not as rewarding as reviewing a more substantive work, but it would be a public service if someone could publish a review taking a less credulous approach. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:12:49 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:12:49 EDT Subject: "scream" = 'makes me laugh' Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/07 12:22:09 PM, george.thompson at NYU.EDU writes: > Have you met her?? She's a scream.? Or, That movie is a scream. > Documented in slang dictionaries. How far should dicitonaries of record go in documenting slang uses?As with trademarks and compounds, it seems to be up to the editors, based on (1) frequency, (2) opaqueness, and (3) general utility. This is opaque enough that I'd think a lexicographer might well consider it. If "gray rape" could be construed as 'rape of(by?) old people' "She's a scream could easily be read to mean "She's frightening," though no native speaker of current American English would ever do that. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 16 19:21:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:21:20 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Did the attack occur in a larvatory? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. > >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 16 19:23:37 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:23:37 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= [ADS-L] "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/16/07 2:36:40 PM, bapopik at GMAIL.COM writes: > I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at > the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. > Sounds more like something for DARE than for OED/ ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 16 19:28:05 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:28:05 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? In-Reply-To: <200710161836.l9GAnrsX003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll > probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' > comments appreciated. Here's a nice quote for "sop": An Eastern man, a "tenderfoot," on one occasion asked some one to pass the gravy, whereupon the bouncer placed his pistol on the table, and quietly remarked "any man as calls sop gravy, has got to eat dust or apologize". It appears in Libby Custer's book "Following the Guidon". Libby being the wife of General George Armstrong Custer. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ > ... > Entry from October 16, 2007 > Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) > Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as > basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. > President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton > (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, > but Jetton didn't invent "mop." > > The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, > Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and > salt. > > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Mop from Derrick Riches > The baste of Barbecue > When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite > Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of > people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that > measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of > this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the > meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, > "mop". > > Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to > mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it > easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another > kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over > meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it > this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. > > A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are > thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. > > Food Network > Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom > Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay > Episode: Austin (Texas) > > During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas > Style Mop Sauce. > > 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers > 6 ounces yellow mustard > 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce > 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce > 4 ounces honey > Pinch hot chile flakes > 4 ounces wine vinegar > 1 white onion chopped > 2 lemons, sliced > > Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 > minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes > during cooking. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP SAUCE > 1/2 c. tomato sauce > 1 c. strong black coffee > 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1 tbsp. sugar > 1 tbsp. salt > 1/2 c. butter > > Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter > is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for > flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE > 2 c. beef stock > 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard > 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar > 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco > Black pepper > 1 tsp. chili powder > 1 1/2 tsp. salt > 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1/3 c. oil > 1/2 tsp. garlic powder > 1 tsp. paprika > Crushed red pepper (to taste) > > Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce >> From Paul Williams > Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on > beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't > have to worry about it burning. > > INGREDIENTS: > 2 cups vinegar > 1 cup olive oil > 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce > 1/2 cup water > 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half > 2 tablespoons hot sauce > 6 bay leaves, crushed > 2 cloves garlic, minced > 1 tablespoon paprika > 1 tablespoon chili powder > > PREPARATION: > Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from > heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. > > Free Cooking Recipes > Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue > Category: Sauces > > Ingredients and Directions > 1 c Strong black coffee > 1 c Tomato catsup > 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper > 1 tb Salt > 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce > 1/4 c Butter or margerine > 1 tb Sugar > > Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring > frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat > before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn > them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong > for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better > it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will > make you throw rocks at steak! > > The BBQ Report > Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce > > Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. > > The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something > that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The > oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious > that anyone will guess your secret. > > Ingredients > 3 cups of Dr. Pepper > 2 tablespoons vegetable oil > Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. > > Associated Content: The People's Media Company > Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) > > 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: > COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE > 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine > 1/2 pound butter > 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine > 2 large white onions chopped fine > 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles > 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce > 1/2 dozen lemons > 4 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons black pepper > 2 tablespoons chile powder > 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce > 2 tablespoons dry mustard > 3 cloves garlic > > Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil > garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup > and spices. > Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. > > For mop sauce: > 2 cups above sauce > 2 cups water > 2 cups cooking oil > 1 cup vinegar > > Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.?Ralph M. Coble, > 3559 Lawnview. > > 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook > Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. > 10, col. 4: > MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS > Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. > Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime > store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are > constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop > concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. > > 4 quarts bone stock > 3 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons dry mustard > 2 tablespoons garlic powder > 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf > 2 tablespoons chili powder > 3 tablespoons paprika > 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce > 2 pints Worcestershire sauce > 1 pint vinegar > 1 pint oil > 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate > > Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup?buy good stout > beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other > ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. > > (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) > TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE > This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts > but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it > as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, > it's delicious. > > 3 bay leaves > Salt and pepper > 2 quarts bone stock > 6 pounds beef brisket > Mop Sauce > > Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is > simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to > the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in > your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter > of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about > every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by > forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure > to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good > natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of > chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also > serve this with Barbecue Sauce. > (...) > Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter > Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine > in association with Pocket Books. > > (More on website -- B.P.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~Will Salmon ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 20:04:26 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:04:26 -0400 Subject: Digitization of The Guardian (1821-2003), The Observer (1791-2003), Playboy, Rolling Stone Message-ID: Olive is working with ProQuest for The Guardian and The Observer?...Knowing ProQuest, this stuff won't be available until a year after ProQuest says it will be available...Bondi Digital Publishing also did The New Yorker...O.T.: The AOL homepage still is cooperating with "Ellen (DeGeneres) Across America," and today's subject is the "hot dog." ... ... ... http://www.sys-con.com/read/443928.htm The Guardian and The Observer Added to ProQuest Historical Newspapers(TM) By: PR Newswire Oct. 15, 2007 09:27 PM ANN ARBOR, Mich., Oct. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- The Guardian and The Observer will be the first British titles to join the acclaimed ProQuest Historical Newspapers(TM). More than 212 years of continuous, independent reporting that covers the best in arts, politics, business, and sports will be searchable for the first time. Digitised by Olive Software, Inc. and converted to ProQuest Historical Newspaper's specifications, the digital archive will include the Guardian (1821-2003) and The Observer (1791-2003). ... ... ... http://books.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1365180.php/Archives_of_Playboy_and_Rolling_Stone_now_available Archives of Playboy and Rolling Stone now available By M&C News Oct 15, 2007, 10:39 GMT That's right. Ever just want to get a hold of some issue of an old magazine and reread the articles you remember? Well now you can. Now with the help of Bondi Digital Publishing?a company which develops and publishes a line of searchable digital archives of print magazines people will be able find the article they are looking for. Right now Bondi is featuring Bondi Digital Publishing's Cover to Cover series of Rolling Stone: The First 40 Years and Playboy: The 50s. These will both be available Nov 2 and in bookstores. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Oct 16 20:22:05 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:22:05 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161733.l9GAkUEb032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/16/07, James Smith wrote: > > It's not clear what the (t) in m-w's pronunciation > means - is the 't' optional, or does this indicate > placing the tongue against the teeth but going to the > 's' without pronouncing, or very weakly pronouncing, > the 't'? >From M-W's pronunciation guide: ---- http://www.m-w.com/help/pronguide.htm Parentheses are used in pronunciations to indicate that whatever is symbolized between them is present in some utterances but not in others; thus factory \'fak-t(&-)rE\ is pronounced both \'fak-t&-rE\ and \'fak-trE\, industry \'in-(")d&s-trE\ is pronounced both \'in-d&s-trE\ and \'in-"d&s-trE\. In some phonetic environments, as in fence \'fen(t)s\ and boil \'boi(&)l\, it may be difficult to determine whether the sound shown in parentheses is or is not present in a given utterance; even the usage of a single speaker may vary considerably. ---- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 21:06:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <200710161921.l9GAp6BY000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain amount of confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) -Wilson On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: Re: Say what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Did the attack occur in a larvatory? > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ---- Original message ---- > >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 > >From: Wilson Gray > > > >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > > > >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > > > >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. > > > >-Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Oct 16 21:22:45 2007 From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:22:45 -0500 Subject: AS indexing In-Reply-To: <4714F913.8030000@moreheadstate.edu> Message-ID: I use LLBA (Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts) which indexes AS as well as other journals I'm interested in. On 10/16/07 12:46 PM, "Terry Irons" wrote: > Colleagues, > > I was doing a bibliography search using the MLA index yesterday, and I > noticed that the search was not returning an information about articles > published in American Speech for 2005 to the present. Does anyone know > whether MLA stopped indexing American Speech or who bibliography other > than MLA does index the journal? > > -- > Virtually, Terry > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu > Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 > Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 > (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 21:49:04 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:49:04 -0400 Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? In-Reply-To: <200710161836.l9GAp672000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Barry quotes: "Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to mop your meat." There is nothing "today" about this tool. As long as i've been living, there has been available at any well-stocked grocery store, at least as far north as Missouri, a dish-washing tool known as a "dish mop." The dish mop, as noted above, looks like a miniature kitchen(-floor) mop. In my experience, it is the dish mop that is the mop of choice WRT cooking, especially WRT barbecue. Since the dish mop is primarily used as a tool with which to wash dishes - I myself have personally used many dish mops in the course of my life, both in washing dishes and in barbecuing - it is a only newly-bought dish mop is used in cooking. WRT the LBJ barbegue story, under the conditions described, Jetton may very well have used an actual kitchen mop. But the claim that this is the origin of the cooking term "mop" is laughable. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Mop sauce" not in revised OED? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > MOP SAUCE--14,800 Google hits > MOPPING SAUCE--2,880 Google hits > MOPPIN SAUCE--1,350 Google hits > > I just added "mop sauce" to my website. OED started its revision at > the letter "M," but doesn't have "mop sauce." This is insane. > > Jesse and Ben and y'all must fly down to Austin at once...I'll > probably get to "soppin' sauce" later today. Any moppin' & soppin' > comments appreciated. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/mop_sauce_mopping_sauce_moppin_sauce/ > ... > Entry from October 16, 2007 > Mop Sauce (Mopping Sauce; Moppin' Sauce) > Mop sauce (also "mopping sauce" or "moppin' sauce") is also known as > basting sauce. It's "mopped" on to barbecue while the food is turned. > President Lyndon B. Johnson's barbecue master, Walter Jetton > (1906-1968), popularized "mop sauce" in a 1965 book on Texas barbecue, > but Jetton didn't invent "mop." > > The mop sauce often contains ingredients such as beef stock, vinegar, > Worcestershire sauce, garlic powder, dry mustard, black pepper, and > salt. > > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Mop from Derrick Riches > The baste of Barbecue > When President Johnson threw a barbecue he called upon is favorite > Pitmaster Walter Jetton to cook up a meal that often feed hundreds of > people. This meal would be cooked on an open air fire pit that > measured about 40 square feet. Walter would cover every square inch of > this surface in ribs, roasts and meats of every variety. To keep the > meat moist he mopped it, with a real mop. Hence the barbecue term, > "mop". > > Today you can buy a miniature tool that looks like a kitchen mop to > mop your meat. The cotton fibers hold the thin mop sauce and make it > easy to dash large amounts on at once. But a mop isn't just another > kind of barbecue sauce. It is a thin, watery solution that drips over > meat adding moisture to combat the drying of an open fire. Think of it > this way; a sauce is applied with a brush, like a paint brush. > > A mop, sometimes called a sop, is applied with, well a mop. Sauces are > thicker than mops. Mops should have a consistency close to water. > > Food Network > Austin, Texas Style Mop Sauce Recipe courtesy Captain Shawn Newsom > Show: FoodNation With Bobby Flay > Episode: Austin (Texas) > > During a barbecue, venison or game should be mopped with a real Texas > Style Mop Sauce. > > 2 cans (12 ounces) beer, no malt liquors or dark beers > 6 ounces yellow mustard > 8 ounces Worcestershire sauce > 12 ounces hickory-flavored barbecue sauce > 4 ounces honey > Pinch hot chile flakes > 4 ounces wine vinegar > 1 white onion chopped > 2 lemons, sliced > > Mix all the above ingredients in a pan and cook at medium heat for 30 > minutes. This will be the sauce that is mopped on every few minutes > during cooking. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP SAUCE > 1/2 c. tomato sauce > 1 c. strong black coffee > 1/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1 tbsp. sugar > 1 tbsp. salt > 1/2 c. butter > > Combine all the ingredients in a saucepan and simmer just until butter > is melted. Use as a marinade for any meat. (It's especially good for > flank steak) or brush on meat as a BBQ sauce. > > Cooks.com > TEXAS MOP BBQ BASTE > 2 c. beef stock > 1 1/2 tsp. powdered mustard > 1/3 c. apple cider vinegar > 1 1/2 tsp. Tabasco > Black pepper > 1 tsp. chili powder > 1 1/2 tsp. salt > 3/4 c. Worcestershire sauce > 1/3 c. oil > 1/2 tsp. garlic powder > 1 tsp. paprika > Crushed red pepper (to taste) > > Mix all ingredients together. Baste meat every 20 minutes. Great on pork! > > About.com: Barbecues & Grilling > Texas Hillbilly Mop Sauce > From Paul Williams > Paul Williams sent me this fantastic mop recipe that works well on > beef and pretty much anything else. This mop has no sugar so you don't > have to worry about it burning. > > INGREDIENTS: > 2 cups vinegar > 1 cup olive oil > 2/3 cup worcestershire sauce > 1/2 cup water > 2 lemons, pulped and cut in half > 2 tablespoons hot sauce > 6 bay leaves, crushed > 2 cloves garlic, minced > 1 tablespoon paprika > 1 tablespoon chili powder > > PREPARATION: > Place all ingredients in a large pot and bring to a boil. Remove from > heat, but keep warm. Mop every hour. > > Free Cooking Recipes > Name: Texas Mopping Sauce For Barbecue > Category: Sauces > > Ingredients and Directions > 1 c Strong black coffee > 1 c Tomato catsup > 1 tb Freshly ground black pepper > 1 tb Salt > 1/2 c Worcestershire sauce > 1/4 c Butter or margerine > 1 tb Sugar > > Combine all ingredients and simmer for at least 30 minutes, stirring > frequently. Store in a tightly covered jar in refrigerator. Heat > before using. For ribs, I dunk the ribs in the sauce each time I turn > them. This sauce is very spicy and some people think it's too strong > for poultry; I disagree. The coarser the pepper is ground, the better > it is. Warning: if this is used on country style pork ribs it will > make you throw rocks at steak! > > The BBQ Report > Recipe: Dr. Pepper Mop Sauce > > Here's a sweet mop sauce good for basting ribs or brisket. > > The Dr. Pepper adds a touch of sweetness and that mystic something > that only Dr. Pepper has that you just can't put your finger on. The > oil adds some stick-um power. Don't worry, the taste isn't so obvious > that anyone will guess your secret. > > Ingredients > 3 cups of Dr. Pepper > 2 tablespoons vegetable oil > Mix well with a whisk, heat and baste while warm. > > Associated Content: The People's Media Company > Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 1 Moppin' Sauce (Video) > > 29 March 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Caller-Times, pg. 41F, col. 1: > COWBOY BARBECUE SAUCE > 1/4 pound fat bacon chopped fine > 1/2 pound butter > 1/34 stalk celery including tops cut fine > 2 large white onions chopped fine > 1/2 gallon catsup-4 bottles > 1 large bottle Worcestershire sauce > 1/2 dozen lemons > 4 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons black pepper > 2 tablespoons chile powder > 1 tablespoon Tabasco sauce > 2 tablespoons dry mustard > 3 cloves garlic > > Fry bacon, add onions and cook until onions are transparent. Boil > garlic in 1 cup of water and add garlic water only to celery, catsup > and spices. > Combine all ingredients and let simmer 1 hour. > > For mop sauce: > 2 cups above sauce > 2 cups water > 2 cups cooking oil > 1 cup vinegar > > Mop this sauce on meat before and after each turning.?Ralph M. Coble, > 3559 Lawnview. > > 6 June 1965, Syracuse (NY) Herald-American, "The LBJ Barbecue Cook > Book" by Walter Jetton with Arthur Whitman, This Week magazine, pg. > 10, col. 4: > MOP FOR ALL BARBECUE MEATS > Use this to rub over meats or to baste them while they are cooking. > Put it on with a little dish mop of the kind that you see in the dime > store. As you use it, the flavor will change and improve, for you are > constantly transferring smoke and grease from the meat back to the mop > concoction. If you have any left over, keep it in the refrigerator. > > 4 quarts bone stock > 3 tablespoons salt > 3 tablespoons dry mustard > 2 tablespoons garlic powder > 1 tablespoon ground bay leaf > 2 tablespoons chili powder > 3 tablespoons paprika > 2 tablespoons hot pepper sauce > 2 pints Worcestershire sauce > 1 pint vinegar > 1 pint oil > 3 tablespoons monosodium glutamate > > Make the bone stock just the way you would start a soup?buy good stout > beef bones from the butcher and boil them. Add all the other > ingredients and let stand overnight before using. About 6 quarts. > > (Pg. 11, cols. 1-2 --ed.) > TEXAS BEEF BARBECUE > This is made out of beef brisket, which is one of the tastiest cuts > but the least thought of by the average housewife, unless she buys it > as corned beef. It starts out pretty tough, but if you nurse it right, > it's delicious. > > 3 bay leaves > Salt and pepper > 2 quarts bone stock > 6 pounds beef brisket > Mop Sauce > > Put the bay leaves in about a cup of water and bring to a boil. Let is > simmer 10 minutes or so, then remove the leaves and add the bay tea to > the bone stock, along with the salt and pepper. Put the brisket in > your Dutch oven and add the stock mixture to cover it about a quarter > of the way. Cover and cook over the fire, turning the brisket about > every half hour until it's nearly done. (This can be determined by > forking.) Mop it and lay it on the grill to finish cooking, being sure > to turn it and to mop it every 20 minutes or so. To make a good > natural gravy, add a little Worcestershire sauce and maybe a dash of > chili powder to the liquid you cooked the brisket in. You can also > serve this with Barbecue Sauce. > (...) > Recipes above are samples of the 97 contained in the new "Walter > Jetton's LBJ Barbecue Cook Book," just published by THIS WEEK Magazine > in association with Pocket Books. > > (More on website -- B.P.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 16 23:12:32 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:12:32 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 ... Watch the above ABC World News report on National Dictionary Day (today). There's a surprise appearance by a handsome ADS-L personality! It's a shoe-in that you'll enjoy the segment, where he gets free reign to speak about spelling. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Tue Oct 16 23:16:45 2007 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:16:45 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is this a joke? "Your search - http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 - did not match any documents. On Tue, 16 Oct 2007, Barry Popik wrote: > http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Tue Oct 16 23:21:31 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:21:31 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: So, not only is Ben Zimmer a brilliant researcher, writer, he is photogenic. To quote a famous? Texas researcher---"I hate that guy." :) Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Popik" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3737179 > ... > Watch the above ABC World News report on National Dictionary Day > (today). There's a surprise appearance by a handsome ADS-L > personality! It's a shoe-in that you'll enjoy the segment, where he > gets free reign to speak about spelling. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 16 23:35:49 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:35:49 -0700 Subject: "yeah" Message-ID: Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." And regarding "Yay!": 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is hard to explain. JL --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 16 23:50:13 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:50:13 -0400 Subject: Jasm/Jism/Gism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On the other hand, gism/jasm must have come from > somewhere. Thoughts? There are various hypotheses; obviously most of them are false. Speculation (I forget whose, not mine): "jism" from English dialect "chissom" = "sprout", "jasm" from "jism" by some unexplained(?) process. Speculation (mine): "jism" and "jasm" (and "jesum" too!) from the seldom-seen word "orgiasm". Speculation (mine): "jizzum" (maybe pseudo-Latinized) from (*)"jizz" or so, a humorous or dialectal version of "juice". Speculation (mine): "jism" OR "jasm" [whichever was first] > (*)"jism-jasm" or so [cf. "mish-mash", "jim-jams", "fiddle-faddle", etc.] > "jasm" OR "jism" [whichever wasn't first] And of course there's Cassidy's Irish derivation. Etc. Note that I do not insist that any of these notions is certain, or even highly probable. Perhaps some transitional form will show up to support one or the other. Maybe the truth is something nobody has thought of. It is my suspicion that the earlier sense was not "semen" but rather the abstract quality, say "vigor" or "spirit". Cf. "spunk", "mettle". Once a word is taken to mean specifically "semen", it would be hard to use it politely, but once (e.g.) "spunk" is established in a polite sense one need have no qualms about referring to one's child's spunk or one's mother's spunk, even if one is fully aware that "spunk" can mean "semen". -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 17 01:16:16 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 20:16:16 -0500 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The message below is important, because Daniel Cassidy reserves special contempt for scholars who disagree with him without knowing Gaelic. Meanwhile, despite the deservedly negative evaluation of Cassidy's book, I'm reminded of the admonition not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book (e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). No doubt there's a lot of bathwater in his book. But if even a single one of Cassidy's numerous proposed etymologies turns out to be correct, his book will not be totally without value. Gerald Cohen On 10/16/07 12:19 PM, "David Bergdahl" wrote: > I sent some of our recent posts to a former colleague who's an Irish/Celtic > specialist (though not primarily a linguist). He writes: > > David: > > Forgive me if I have said this before. Daniel Cassidy's reputation is zilch > in Irish American scholarship. The two leading journals, NEW HIBERNIA > REVIEW and EIRE-IRELAND, have both rejected him. He takes such rejection > with vituperation. He's a credulous empire-builder. That does not mean > there is not much influence of spoken Irish (Gaelic) on spoken English. One > is the lenition of initial B's in some NYC place names, "Vrooklyn" for > "Brooklyn." As for vocabulary, slob and phony are pretty well accepted, I > think. > > There is other Irish influence not from spoken Irish. Stephen Foster was > Irish (and gay), and the words and music for "Dixie" were written by > Irishmen in New York. You probably know about the naughty implications of > the title "Dixie." > > None of this means Cassidy is right. > > Best, > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 01:41:38 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:41:38 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161750.l9GGHrXi003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:50:40 -0700 > From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Smith > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tidal wave was the popular name in use when I was a > youth back in the 50's, but I think those in the know > have long eschewed this moniker for seismic sea wave. > I have no documentation, but I think 'tsunami' has > come into more widespread use in the past 50 years or > so, basically since the end of WWII because of the > more open exchange of scientific knowledge between > Japan and the west (and because 'tsunami' sounds less > mundane than 'seismic sea wave'). > > "Tidal wave: An erroneous syn. of both 'storm surge' > and 'tsunami'" American Geologic Institute Glossary > of Geology, 1980 > > > --- Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I've pronounced the 't' since I learned the word >> around 30 years ago. >> I'm glad that "tsunami" has replaced "tidal wave", >> because I have never >> understood the tide has to do with an earthquake. > > > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > http://sims.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 02:30:50 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:30:50 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710162321.l9GKWAxG003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as well as to Ben. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 02:43:05 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:43:05 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <200710170110.l9H0wpE8003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/16/07, Gerald Cohen wrote: > > > No doubt there's a lot of bathwater in his book. But if even a single one > of > Cassidy's numerous proposed etymologies turns out to be correct, his book > will not be totally without value. > (I have not read the book, though I have read some posts of his. For the following arithmetic I am assuming that David's correspondent's evaluation, and those of regular listies Wilson, John, Jonathan, Grant, and Doug (and possibly others I've missed) are correct.) Adding the large negative value of the baloney, spread of misinformation, and encouraging others in his own sort of cavalier attitude toward language, to the small positive value of any crumb of reality that may actually be in there, he still comes out with a large negative value, which may be visualized as down in a pit or neck-deep in B.S. And that's granting him the benefit of the doubt on anything that might be correct. If you fire a shotgun in the general direction of a rifle target, you may indeed score a few points and even a bulls-eye, but it's not by marksmanship. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Oct 17 02:49:15 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:49:15 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170142.l9H0wpJC003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal wave, then. But the tide doesn't roar onto shores, destroying objects and creatures in the path. If you want to eliminate all the words with sounds that are unfriendly to AmE, you have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, knight, tse-tse...) BB Tom Zurinskas wrote: > I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 03:17:07 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: <200710161702.l9GGHrL8003909@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree with you. If one party is drugged so that she is not only unable to give consent, but is also completely unaware of even being in a situation that normally requires consent, how can that be anything but plain,old rape, whether the people involved be siblings or total strangers? "Grey rape" sounds more like a situation in which a girl might say, "Iwas too drunk to know what he was doing to me" and the guy says, "I don't remember her saying no, but I was pretty drunk, myself." But this sort of thing is not made new by giving it a new name. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Sarah Lang wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Sarah Lang > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone > who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my > understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink > with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, > acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If > that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke > to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- > rape" drunk was used. > > Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be > referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before > but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party > were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). > But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to > give consent. > > (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex > word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and > its meanings or usages justice.) > > S. > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Charles Doyle > > Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------- > > > > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days > > ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging > > and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, > > at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the > > term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, > > possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? > > > > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the > > informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such > > a drug becomes a date rape. > > > > --Charlie > > ____________________________________________________________ > > > > ---- Original message ---- > >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 > >> From: Barry Popik > >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > >> ... > >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- > >> of-date-rape/ > >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm > >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? > >> By Sewell Chan > >> > >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex > >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a > >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. > >> "Are you talking about > >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. > >> > >> > >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New > >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls > >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing > >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted > >> what." > >> > >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. > >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this > >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of > >> "gray rape" ? and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or > >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York > >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former > >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate > >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Wed Oct 17 03:22:49 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:22:49 EDT Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: I can't help thinking - if everyone would just behave themselves, there'd be no need for terms like this. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 17 03:49:45 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:49:45 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, and me, along with unnamed others. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 04:29:50 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:29:50 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710162335.l9GIREFv032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": Baker: I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! [forgotten passages] Want banana in it? Children: Well, I guess! We want the pat-a-cake That we like best! Yea, team! Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! Baker's man! Etc. But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was chatting about something or other: Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of my favorite tunes! -Wilson On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > And regarding "Yay!": > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > hard to explain. > > JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 04:28:48 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:28:48 -0400 Subject: Soppin' Sauce Message-ID: SOPPING SAUCE--357 Google hits SOPPIN SAUCE--282 Google hits SOP SAUCE--47 Google hits MOPPIN' AND SOPPIN' SAUCE--1 Google hit MOP AND SOP SAUCE--2 Google hits MOP & SOP SAUCE--4 Google hits SOPPIN' AND MOPPIN' SAUCE--1 Google hits SOP AND MOP SAUCE--0 Google hits SOP & MOP SAUCE--1 Google hit "Soppin' sauce" is of possible interest to OED and DARE. It is clearly less popular than "mop sauce." Basically, "soppin' sauce" is a thicker "mop sauce" or a thinner "barbecue sauce." My recent entry on this term is below. O.T.: If that ABC World News video link to "National Dictionary Day" didn't work out, just go directly to the ABC World News (with Charles Gibson) website. Click the link there...Why do dictionaries get a day, but hot dogs get an entire month? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/soppin_sauce_sopping_sauce_sop_sauce_moppin_soppin_sauce_mop_sop_sauce/ ... Soppin' sauce (also "sopping sauce" or "sop sauce") is, to some, just a Texas term for a type of barbecue sauce. A "mop sauce" is applied to marinate, tenderize and baste. Soppin' sauce is added during the last five minutes of cooking, or is served at the table like a barbecue sauce. Mop sauce is usually thinner than soppin' sauce; the soppin' sauce often has sugar and ketchup than would burn if applied to the meat too early during cooking. A few sauces are called "moppin' & soppin' sauce" or "mop & sop sauce," for use like a mop sauce, a sop sauce, and a barbecue table sauce. The ingredients?Worcestershire sauce, vinegar, hot red pepper, garlic, salt?are often similar in both "mop" and "sop" sauces. Some contend that there is basically no difference between the sauces, with the difference only in how the manufacturer chooses to label and sell the sauce. California Barbecue Association While the meat is cooking, use a mop or a baste A mop, and a sop are the same, just a difference in regional names. A mop or sop is a liquid that you put on the meat while it cooks. The mob or sop should contain only a little sugar (or tomato ketchup) as one containing much sugar will likely caramelize and turn black as the sugar burns and turns to carbon. A mop is applied with a brush, a little barbecue mop or from a spray bottle. If you use a spray bottle, remember to filter the liquid before you fill the bottle as particles (like black pepper) will likely clog the spray nozzle. A basting sauce is somewhat thicker than a mop or a sop and usually has a sugar or ketchup base. Basting sauces are usually reserved for the last fifteen minutes of cooking or are applied to the meat after it is removed from the smoker. Bar-B-Q Sauce Recipes TEXAS SOPPIN' SAUCE 2 Garlic cloves; roughly cut 1/2 t Salt 1 Small dried, hot red pepper 2 T Brown sugar 1 T Worcestershire sauce 1 c Cider vinegar 1/4 t Ground cumin 2 c Ketchup 1/2 t Anise seeds Hot pepper sauce, to taste Combine all ingredients through vinegar in the container of a blender or food processor. Process until smooth. Transfer mixture to a medium saucepan and add the ketchup. Heat to boiling, reduce heat. Simmer uncovered 30 minutes. Add hot pepper sauce to taste. Makes about 3 cups. [From: Cooking With Fire and Smoke by Phillip Stephen Schulz] Texas Beef Council 6666 Soppin' Sauce Prep: 10 minutes Cook: 1 hour Servings: Makes approximately 6 cups 1 cup water 1 16 ounce can tomato paste 5 tsp. chili powder 1-1/2 tsp. black pepper 1/2 cup catsup 1/2 tsp. garlic salt 3 Tbsp. Worcestershire sauce 1/3 cup cider vinegar 1/3 cup lemon juice 1/2 cup margarine or butter 1/4 tsp. cayenne 6 Tbsp. honey 6 Tbsp. brown sugar 1/2 tsp. salt Combine all ingredients in a medium sauce pan. Bring to a boil, reduce heat and simmer one hour, stirring occasionally. If used as a basting sauce, baste meat with sauce when almost done. Can also be served as a sauce with the meal. Great with ribs and brisket. Rare Finds Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Unlike a 'mopping sauce' which is used for slow roasting, 'sopping sauce' is used on quicker cooking items. And unlike BBQ sauce which is fairly thick and added right at the end of cooking, 'sopping sauce' should be applied liberally with a string brush to literally 'sop' the meat throughout the cooking process. Sopping sauces are one of the south's best kept BBQ secrets. Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce will make your grilled steaks, burgers, and chops so delicious your grill will be open all year long! Fischer & Wieser Specialty Foods (Fredericksburg, TX) Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Our Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce is one of Texas' best kept secrets. This blend will make your grilled steaks, burgers, chops and grilled game so delicious your grill will be open all year long! Texas On The Plate - The New Texas Cuisine Grilled Ribeye Steak with Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce You will become the King, or Queen as the case may be, of Steak Grilling to your family and friends when you serve them these melt-in-your-mouth-delicious steaks. To serve 4 4 (12-ounce) ribeye steaks 1 cup Texas on the Plate Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce Freshly cracked black pepper 4 (1/2-inch thick) slices of real butter (no cheating with margarine!) Heat a gas char grill to medium-hot or build a good charcoal fire and let it burn down to where the coals are covered with white ash and glowing red underneath. Trim excess fat from the edges of the steaks. Pour the Bodacious Red Soppin' Sauce in a non-aluminum baking dish large enough to hold the four steaks in a single layer. Arrange the steaks in the pan, coating the bottoms with the baste. Turn the steaks over and coat the other side. Set steaks aside in the baste while you heat the grill or build your fire. When the grill is ready, slap those steaks on the grill rack and grind a liberal amount of black pepper over the top. Grill to desired degree of doneness, peppering the opposite side when you turn the steaks. Just before you take the steaks off the fire, lay one of the butter slices on top of each steak and cook just long enough for the butter to almost melt. Transfer steaks to serving plates and enjoy! Uncle Phaedrus, Finder of Lost Recipes Mop and Sop Sauce 1 1/2 cups cider vinegar 1 cup ketchup 1/2 teaspoon or more Tabasco Sauce 1 teaspoon or more chili powder 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/3 cup brown sugar 2 tablespoons Worcestershire sauce Instructions: Combine all ingredients in a sauce pan and bring to a boil; stir occasionally. Adjust seasonings. Mop this sauce on grilled meat 10 minutes before it is fully cooked. Reboil sauce and serve for sopping at the table Sycamore Hill Farms (Quitman, GA) Sycamore Red Mop & Sop Available in: Pints & 1 Gallon containers Not everyone likes mustard, so we came up with a great Red sauce for the table and grill that has a taste you'll keep coming back for. It's a ketchup style sauce with the fullness of Apple Cider Vinegar, Molasses and Worcestershire sauce. I've even seen a great-neice of mine with a small bowl dipping her finger in it and eating straight from the dish. We call it Sycamore Red and it's a Mop & Sop sauce too! Most folks down here think that if it's red, it's BBQ sauce. The sauce is not hot but might have a light spicy kick from the black pepper we use in it. Associated Content: The People's Media Company Perfect Texas Style BBQ Ribs Part 2 Soppin' Sauce (Video) 8 June 1972, Vidette-Messenger (Valparaiso, IN), pg. 3, col. 1: ROTISSERIE BEEF With Soppin' Sauce 4 to 6 pound rolled rib roast 1 cup ketchup 1 cup Worcestershire sauce 1 cup strong coffee 1/2 cup butter or margarine 2 tablespoons freshly ground pepper 1 tablespoon sugar 1 tablespoon salt 1 February 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Legislator Wants Chili for Official State Dish" by Frank X. Tolbert, Section D, pg. 3: "I would like to serve an old-fashion 'sopping sauce,' made from the juices dripping from the beef and wit ha lot of black pepper sn other spices and a little vinegar. The sopping kind of a barbecue sauce. It's good just soaked in biscuits or light bread." 17 February 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: However, there is another sign which warns that diabetics or folks with stomach ulcers had better not try the barbecue sauce on the tables. It's an old-fashion sopping sauce, although maybe with too much chili powder accents. Fairly peppery but seemed harmless to me. 8 July 1987, Frederick (MD) News-Post, pg. C1, col. 2: Following is a recipe from Courtenay Beinhorn's book "Beinhorn's Mesquite Cookery." DOWN-EAT MOPPIN' AND SOPPIN' SAUCE 1 cup cider vinegar 2 teaspoons ground red pepper 1 teaspoon ground black pepper 1/2 teaspoon salt 1 teaspoon safflower oil Combine all the ingredients in a bowl and mix well. Pour into a shake bottle. Makes 1 cup. 7 June 1990, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 6, pg. 1, cols. 2-3: Certain outdoor cooks down South make a distinction between the moppin' sauce and the soppin' sauce. You use moppin' sauce to marinate, tenderize and baste. It can vary from complicated to plain (beer), but its job is to flavor the meat and keep it moist. Sugar and ketchup would only burn over the long haul, so you leave them out. Schlesinger and Willoughby say a typical recipe might be 1/2 gallon vinegar, 2 warm beers, 1/4 cup cayenne and 2 secret ingredients. Soppin' sauce can be as basic as vinegar, salt and pepper, but as fancy as a concoction of 30 ingredients, and likely will get more sugary and ketchup-y. The main thing is, it shouldn't hide the smokey taste of the meat. You smooth it on in the last five minutes of cooking so it won't burn, and serve it on the side. For common folk, most sauces are all-purpose, too. What works for spareribs usually works on beef, chicken and shrimp. And don't let the purists bother you: Moppin' usually works fine for soppin' and vice-versa. Just warm it up. Google Groups: rec.crafts.textiles.quilting Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles.quilting From: "Phyllis Andersen" Date: 2000/01/14 Subject: Trek to Tucson-Day 2 even longer I found some Side Saddle Sopping Sauce for my DH to use on the BBQ. Low Carb Friends 03-29-2003, 07:07 PM Though this isn't a recipe, I have found that the "sopping sauce", a thinner type of bbq sauce, often makes a really good low carb substitute for regular bbq sauce. Of course, as always (LOL), check the label, but there should be at least one variety of this at your local grocer! Google Groups: alt.food.barbecue Newsgroups: alt.food.barbecue From: "Greg Leman" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:24:42 GMT Local: Tues, Nov 25 2003 8:24 am Subject: Re: Jamaican Jerk Sauce You'll have to look pretty hard to find something like an NC soppin sauce. San Diego Reader Delayed Whomp By Naomi Wise Published January 6, 2005 (...) Slopping on barbecue sauce as a marinade before smoking is a sure sign of inauthenticity, and a near-certain route to a nasty layer of charred sugar besmirching the surface of the meat. Texas barbecuers (especially white guys) often use a wet marinade or baste, which they call "mopping sauce," and in Kansas City, some "Qs" immerse their pork ribs in a savory spiced brine, but most southerners rub the meat with a dry-spice blend (homemade or store-bought)?salt, pepper, paprika, plus dry mustard, garlic powder, whatever. After that comes the sauce. If you travel through the South, every hundred miles or so you hit a different regional sauce, plus all the individual variations thereof. South Carolina's mustard-based sauce is thin and yellow, Memphis's sauce is red, light, and tangy, and rural Tennessee's can be incendiary. Louisiana's runs sweet and lemony, and the sweet-sour, tomatoey Texas sauce (called "sopping sauce" by the natives) is the model for the bottled sauces in the supermarket?and for the sauces served at most California barbecues. San Diego Reader Where Smoking Is Good By Naomi Wise Published January 18, 2007 (...) Often, Southerners rub barbecue meats with an aromatic spice mixture before cooking; they may also baste during cooking with a strongly seasoned liquid (as in your typical Texas "mop and sop"?the mop is the baste, the sop is the thicker sauce applied just at serving, so the sugars won't blacken in the heat of the pit). (Trademark) Word Mark SOPPIN SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: Bar-B-Q sauce. FIRST USE: 20040304. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20040320 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78379039 Filing Date March 4, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Trinity Treats, LLC Ruth C McRae Celeste Caldwell Rochelle Chiles PARTNERSHIP LOUISIANA 9095 Hosston-Vivian Road Vivian LOUISIANA 71082 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 29, 2005 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Wed Oct 17 04:33:09 2007 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael H Covarrubias) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:33:09 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170249.l9GL2aXf003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I grew up saying tidal wave and I still use it more often than tsunami (but it has nothing to do with evil phonotactics)-- However for some reason--as a [aI] > [^I]/ __[t] raiser I also applied the raising to 'tidal' in this phrase but not in "tide" or even in "tidal bore". Perhaps I modeled it after 'title'? Any other evidence of this "hyper" canadian raising before a voiced dental? Michael Quoting Benjamin Barrett : > > No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal > wave, then. But the tide doesn't roar onto > shores, destroying objects and creatures in the > path. If you want to eliminate all the words > with sounds that are unfriendly to AmE, you > have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, > knight, tse-tse...) BB > > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who > > knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? > > volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the > > ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think > > it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent > > letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 05:04:06 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:04:06 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710170231.l9GLOWhq000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I agree. Ben, I was much impressed, especially considering your youth. Are you old enough to have your driver's license, yet? :-) The baby-faced look has its ups and downs. I myself was still being carded at the age of 36. -Wilson On 10/16/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as > well as to Ben. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Wed Oct 17 05:16:14 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 00:16:14 -0500 Subject: Spell the American way on National Dictionary Day Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Spell the American way on National Dictionary Day October 16 is the birthday of the American lexicographer Noah Webster. It?s also ?National Dictionary Day.? In his own time Webster was most famous for the blue-backed spelling books from which American children learned their ABC?s, but thanks to the popularity of his 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language, his name also became synonymous with dictionary. This year, to celebrate National Dictionary Day, the editors at the Oxford American Dictionary have decided to honor the great American lexicographer by revising the spelling of two words to reflect the latest American spelling trends. According to ABC News, after reviewing 2 billion words of contemporary American prose, Oxford?s lexicographers have determined that since 49% of Americans write vocal chords and 46% choose free reign, these innovative spellings will now appear alongside the more conventional vocal cords and free rein. This decision to recognize variant spellings, like a president pardoning murderers and White House staffers who lie to grand juries, is likely to anger purists who are convinced that the job of dictionaries is to propose language laws and see that others obey them. But lexicographers aren?t language cops. Their job is to record English as people use it, not to impose their idea of how it should be used on the rest of us. That very descriptive job description won?t silence the loud opposition that vocal chords is likely to produce. There will be letters in the Times from long-retired British colonels who will pop their monocles while admonishing Oxford for giving Americans free reign over English, thereby violating the dictionary-maker?s Hippocratic oath as stated by their own great lexicographer, Samuel Johnson, while on the other side of the pond high school teachers whose job, as defined by the federal government, is to leave no child behind, will campaign to ban such outlandish spellings from standardized tests and they?ll tut tut that that poor old Mr. Webster must be spinning in his grave. Neither the colonels nor the teachers will be correct. . . . to find out why, read the rest of this post on The Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 17 01:53:43 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:53:43 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an >etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book I agree with this approach. However I suggest that while finding a plausible candidate etymon is easy (and sometimes fun) it is very different from demonstrating a real historical connection! >(e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). Ah, now here I can contribute an etymon ... with (AFAIK) just as much solid corroboration as the "death-cap" hypothesis! _Eastern Europe_ ("Lonely Planet" Phrasebook) (4th ed., 2007): p. 437: << ["Slovene": "in the bar"] What would you like? Kaj bos^? .... kai bosh [s^ = s-with-hacek] >> The semantic development is obvious ("what will you have" > "what have you" > "whatchamacallit"/"whatever") and it accounts not only for "put the kibosh on it" = "put the whatever on it" but also for both "that's the real kibosh" = "that's the real whatever" and "that's just a lot of kibosh" = "that's just a lot of whatever". Perhaps we can thank some forgotten Slovenian bartender in London, ca. 1800. Or maybe the expression was picked up by reporters covering the Congress of Laibach in 1821. No doubt mainstream lexicographers (most of whom speak _no Slovene at all_) will pooh-pooh this etymology. But it's so obvious! (^_^) -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Oct 17 10:14:44 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:14:44 -0500 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ahhh, but if everyone just behaved themselves it would be the end of our legal system, not a bad thing, but think of the unemployment! Your Name wrote: > I can't help thinking - if everyone would just behave themselves, there'd be > no need for terms like this. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- ?Wars begin where you will, but they do not end where you please.? Machiavelli ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 11:54:50 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:54:50 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would have thought that I'd be mentioned in an article about the sport of antedating. For the record, I was the one who found the 1860 citation for "Windy City," not Barry (although Barry was certainly the one who earlier disproved the Dana story). Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Benjamin Zimmer [bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The competitive sport of antedating Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, and me, along with unnamed others. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 17 12:13:46 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:13:46 -0400 Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) Message-ID: Hey, y'all-- I wasn't suggesting that drugged-stranger rape is something less heinous than plain old rape. I was just wondering how common it is to refer to DSR as "date rape"! It's that philological thing we do . . . . --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:17:07 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) > >I agree with you. If one party is drugged so that she is not only unable to give consent, but is also completely unaware of even being in a situation that normally requires consent, how can that be anything but plain, old rape, whether the people involved be siblings or total strangers? > >"Grey rape" sounds more like a situation in which a girl might say, "Iwas too drunk to know what he was doing to me" and the guy says, "I don't remember her saying no, but I was pretty drunk, myself." But this sort of thing is not made new by giving it a new name. > >-Wilson > >On 10/16/07, Sarah Lang wrote: >> >> I have always understood "date-rape" to be rape committed by someone >> who was, however briefly, known to the victim. So, from my >> understanding, if the victim met someone at a bar and had one drink >> with him or her that was dosed: date-rape, or if you like, >> acquaintance rape (I would use the former in colloquial speech). If >> that victim were dosed by someone she or he never actual met or spoke >> to, I would call that just plain, old-fashioned rape, even if a "date- >> rape" drunk was used. >> >> Grey-rape, whether a ridiculous or harmful term or not, seems to be >> referring to the "we were both really drunk, I didn't want to before >> but . . . wait, what happened?" sort of territory. If only one party >> were intoxicated and therefore unable to consent: easy (well easier). >> But if both are it's . . . kinda grey as neither are legally able to >> give consent. >> >> (I think I'll end there, as rape is simply a far, far too complex >> word, historically, legally, rhetorically, etc. to really do it and >> its meanings or usages justice.) >> >> S. >> >> On Oct 16, 2007, at 8:20 AM, Charles Doyle wrote: >> > >> > A feature article on date rape in the student newspaper a few days ago discussed, as a kind of DATE RAPE, the surreptitious drugging and abducting of a stranger or slight acquaintance--for instance, at a bar or a party. Is that a common use or understanding of the term? Doesn't a date rape have to involve a "date"--therefore, possibly, a "grayer" area of conduct? >> > >> > Maybe there has been a sort of cognitive back-formation of the informal term "date-rape drug": any rape involving the use of such a drug becomes a date rape. >> > >> > --Charlie >> > ____________________________________________________________ >> > >> > ---- Original message ---- >> >> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:11:00 -0400 >> >> From: Barry Popik >> >> Subject: "Gray Rape" (from NY Times) >> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> > >> >> ... >> >> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/gray-rape-a-new-form- >> >> of-date-rape/ >> >> October 15, 2007, 4:00 pm >> >> 'Gray Rape': A New Form of Date Rape? >> >> By Sewell Chan >> >> >> >> When Robert D. Laurino, chief assistant prosecutor for Essex >> >> County in New Jersey, told a friend that he was speaking on a >> >> panel about the topic of "gray rape," the friend was confused. >> >> "Are you talking about >> >> the rape of the elderly?" the friend asked. >> >> >> >> >> >> An article in the September issue of Cosmopolitan magazine, "A New >> >> Kind of Date Rape," defined "gray rape" as "sex that falls >> >> somewhere between consent and denial and is even more confusing >> >> than date rape because often both parties are unsure of who wanted >> >> what." >> >> >> >> A standing-room-only audience packed the lobby of the Gerald W. >> >> Lynch Theater at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice this >> >> morning to listen to a vigorous panel discussion on the idea of >> >> "gray rape" ? and whether the term is even meaningful, helpful or >> >> harmful. Not too many events in the intellectual life of New York >> >> City bring together Jeremy Travis, the legal expert and former >> >> city police official who is the president of John Jay, and Kate >> >> White, editor in chief ofCosmopolitan, which sponsored the event. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 17 12:15:34 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:15:34 -0400 Subject: The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the article: "Barry Popik, a former Manhattan traffic court judge who now lives in Texas, holds the world heavyweight belt in significant antedatings. By finding an example of Chicago being called the "Windy City" dating from 1860, he disproved the popular legend that Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined by New York Sun editor Charles A. Dana, pooh-poohing Chicago's ability to put on the 1893 Columbian Exposition." What, the world heavyweight belt for a mere 33-year antedating? What about my "piss-house", 1665, antedating 1942? Just as significant. (And who says antedating is a competitive sport?) Joel At 10/16/2007 11:49 PM, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, >Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > >http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > >Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, >and me, along with unnamed others. > > >--Ben Zimmer > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 17 12:18:32 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:18:32 -0400 Subject: Say what? Message-ID: Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms "lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, but confusion did occur. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) > >-Wilson > >On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >> >> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >> >> --Charlie >> _____________________________________________________________ >> >> ---- Original message ---- >> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >> >From: Wilson Gray >> > >> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >> > >> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >> > >> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses the singular like a non-count noun. >> > >> >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 17 14:47:39 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:47:39 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710170429.l9GL2agn003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ECCO and EEBO overwhelmingly show "Yea" in biblical contexts, usu. meaning "yes indeed!" or "moreover" rather than as an offhand "yes." Why this should be so is puzzling. Can it be that modern "yeah" really is just (or mostly) a recent apocope of "yes"? This is hard for me to believe. "Yeah" just seems too fundamental a part of English. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": Baker: I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! [forgotten passages] Want banana in it? Children: Well, I guess! We want the pat-a-cake That we like best! Yea, team! Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! Baker's man! Etc. But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was chatting about something or other: Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of my favorite tunes! -Wilson On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > And regarding "Yay!": > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > hard to explain. > > JL > > > > > --------------------------------- > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 16:42:12 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:42:12 -0400 Subject: "Vocal cords"? Message-ID: I've long - ever since I learned to read and spell back in the 'Forties - been under the impression that the only way to spell "vocal chords" was "vocal chords." At some more recent time, like the 'Eighties, I got the impression that "cords" was a technical spelling peculiar to the writings of linguists. I am amazed to learn that, until now, "cords" was considered to be the only "correct" spelling, despite its extreme rarity, even in technical writing. Who knew? OTOH, "free _reign_"? WTF?! I had no idea that this variant even existed before I saw the Dictionary Day film. As the late, great Richard Prior put it, "Unreal. An' I ain't gawin' faw it." Maybe I need to spin' mo' time down own dih cowna axin' niggaz how tuh spayl shit. Reading's obviously a waste of time. -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 16:44:46 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:44:46 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <20071017081832.IDB02140@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 8:43 AM -0400 10/17/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, >but confusion did occur. > For the science teachers' sake, I hope the confusion was caught in time... LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >>From: Wilson Gray >> >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >>> >>> --Charlie >>> _____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> ---- Original message ---- >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >>> >From: Wilson Gray >>> > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >>> > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >>> > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses >>>the singular like a non-count noun. >>> > >>> >-Wilson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 17 16:47:57 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:47:57 -0400 Subject: Wikipedian truthiness In-Reply-To: <200709260402.l8PKnLX3019529@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Somebody else may have beaten me to this, but Wikipedia's featured article today is the entry on truthiness, which includes much discussion of ADS's WotY designation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:01:27 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710170249.l9H1MsV3032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we don't park on it. Somewhere there's a list of these. We can live with tsunami. I wonder which word most Americans would choose. I wonder how many words in English are out there that are not pronounced in an English friendly way. You seem to think lots. But I think we Englishize them, like the way "t" was dropped by m-w.com for saying tsunami. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:49:15 -0700 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > No objection here if you call it a pseudo-tidal wave, then. But the tide > doesn't roar onto shores, destroying objects and creatures in the path. > If you want to eliminate all the words with sounds that are unfriendly > to AmE, you have a long way to go. (Psychology, gnu, knight, tse-tse...) BB > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> I'm showing my age as well. It was always "tidal wave" years ago. Who knew the cause. I suppose there could be several causes - asteroid splash? volcano? gas bubble? Interestingly, it does act like a tide, because the ocean wells up like a tide for many waves before receding. I don't think it's so bad a term as to replace it with a word that begins with a silent letter that's not even phonetically American English friendly. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:22:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:22:59 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <200710170711.l9GL2ak9003979@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) -Wilson On 10/16/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Cassidy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >Specifically, are any of Cassidy's proposed etymologies of value? As an > >etymologist that's the question I'll have in mind as I read through his book > > I agree with this approach. However I suggest that while finding a > plausible candidate etymon is easy (and sometimes fun) it is very > different from demonstrating a real historical connection! > > >(e.g., for "kibosh" possibly from Gaelic words meaning "cap of death"). > > Ah, now here I can contribute an etymon ... with (AFAIK) just as much > solid corroboration as the "death-cap" hypothesis! > > _Eastern Europe_ ("Lonely Planet" Phrasebook) (4th ed., 2007): p. 437: > > << > > ["Slovene": "in the bar"] > > What would you like? > Kaj bos^? .... kai bosh > > [s^ = s-with-hacek] > > >> > > The semantic development is obvious ("what will you have" > "what > have you" > "whatchamacallit"/"whatever") and it accounts not only > for "put the kibosh on it" = "put the whatever on it" but also for > both "that's the real kibosh" = "that's the real whatever" and > "that's just a lot of kibosh" = "that's just a lot of whatever". > > Perhaps we can thank some forgotten Slovenian bartender in London, > ca. 1800. Or maybe the expression was picked up by reporters covering > the Congress of Laibach in 1821. > > No doubt mainstream lexicographers (most of whom speak _no Slovene at > all_) will pooh-pooh this etymology. But it's so obvious! (^_^) > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.13/1074 - Release Date: 10/16/2007 2:14 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:24:06 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:24:06 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710170504.l9H1Msin032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 billion. I can't guess your dialect. It's the same as mine, but mine is typical media. I didn't hear any awe-dropping or r-dropping or I-dropping as well. I did hear ~eeng rather than ~ing, but that is common. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 01:04:06 -0400 > From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree. Ben, I was much impressed, especially considering your youth. > Are you old enough to have your driver's license, yet? :-) The > baby-faced look has its ups and downs. I myself was still being carded > at the age of 36. > > -Wilson > > On 10/16/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Very nice presentation. Kudos (that's a mass noun, y'all) to ABC News as >> well as to Ben. >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 17:41:51 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:41:51 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710171447.l9HAlDVW004972@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Amen" to that! Now, why is it that the originally simpler form, "yea," was more formal than the original compound, "yea swa"? I don't even have a WAG, a joke, or an anecdote for that one. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ECCO and EEBO overwhelmingly show "Yea" in biblical contexts, usu. meaning "yes indeed!" or "moreover" rather than as an offhand "yes." > > Why this should be so is puzzling. Can it be that modern "yeah" really is just (or mostly) a recent apocope of "yes"? > > This is hard for me to believe. "Yeah" just seems too fundamental a part of English. > > JL > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > > Back in an earlier day, "yay" as in "Yay, team!" was spelled "yea." I > remember a cheer from a version of "The Gingerbread Boy": > > Baker: > I'll make a gingerbread boy and surprise the children! > [forgotten passages] > Want banana in it? > > Children: > Well, I guess! > We want the pat-a-cake > That we like best! > Yea, team! > Pat-a-cake! Pat-a-cake! > Baker's man! > Etc. > > But, even at this time, ca.WWII, there was no connection in my mind > between biblical "yea" and cheer "yea," despite the identical spelling > and pronunciation. OTOH, I waas inmy forties before I made the > connection between "grass" and "graze," though I was aware of the > connection between "glass" and "glaze." A Swedish friend of mind was > chatting about something or other: > > Swedish friend: "... grassing ..." > > Me: "'Grassing'? What does that mean?" > > Swedish friend: "You know. Like 'sheep grassing in the meadow.'" > > The light dawned. And Hugh Masekela's "Grazing in the Grass" is one of > my favorite tunes! > > -Wilson > > > On 10/16/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Exx. of {yea} used conversationally by Englishmen of the 17th & 18th C.: > > > > 1605 Jonas Poole, in Samuel Purchas _Hakluytus Posthumus_ (rpt. Glasgow: J. MacLehose & Sons, 1905) XIII 271: They demanded, as I tooke it, if all our men were wel: I told them yea, as loud as I could. > > > > a1625 in Samuel Purchas _Purchas his Pilgrimes in Five Books_ (London: Henrie Fetherstone, 1625) II 1067: Then they asked me whether in _Portugall, the Priests were marryed?_ I told them, no. They demanded, _whether we held the Councell of Pope_ Leo _which was made at_ Nice? I told them, _yea, and that I had alreadie declared, that the great Creed was made there_. > > > > 1704 William Chillingworth _Additional Discourses of Mr. Chillingworth_ 1: Probably I should answer no....but...I answer, yea. > > > > 1708 Francis Bugg _Goliah's Head Cut Off with His Own Sword_ (London: the author) 287: I ask'd her if she had a Book intitled, _Ishmael and his Mother cast out_, &c.? She told me Yea; saying, Wilt thou buy it? Yes [sic], said I, What wilt thou have for it? _Ibid_. 295: A Clergy Man...ask'd me if I would print it. I told him Yea. > > > > ca1720 Joseph Pitts in Michael Wolfe _One Thousand Roads to Mecca_ (N.Y.: Grove Press, 1997) 109 [ref. to 1685]: He looked earnestly upon me and asked me whether I was not an Englishman? I answered, "Yea." "How came you hither?" said he...."What, are you a slave?" said he. I replied, Yes [sic]. > > > > 1726 George Roberts _The Four Years Voyages of Capt. George Roberts_ (London: A. Bettesworth and J. Osborn) 200: They...ask'd me, Whether I took as far as I could see to be the Top. I told them, Yea. _Ibid._ 204: They said, Yea, that they could. > > > > 1794 Thomas Holcroft _The Adventures of Hugh Trevor_ I 56: I called, with a trembling voice, "Mary! Are you alive?" And my heart bounded with joy to hear her, though dolefully, answer, "yea." > > > > And regarding "Yay!": > > 1798 William Seward _Anecdotes of Distinguished Persons_ (London: T. Cadell jun. & W. Davies) I 120: The people answer Yea, yea, yea; King Edward, King Edward! > > > > It would be disingenuous not to observe that examples in colloquial contexts are rare. It may be, however, that spoken / jE: / was generally edited into "yes" on the erroneous assumption that it was merely a "slovenly" pronunciation of the latter. But why respelling didn't happen also to the formal "Yea" (antonym of "Nay" - early form of / nae:: /?) is > > hard to explain. > > > > JL > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 18:45:23 2007 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:45:23 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <82745f630710171022s69e29414v51c04bcfa3897ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wilson Gray wrote: > Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from > Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I > know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) > It's hard to argue with that logic! -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 17 19:46:30 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:46:30 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: <47165843.10705@haskins.yale.edu> Message-ID: At 2:45 PM -0400 10/17/07, Alice Faber wrote: >Wilson Gray wrote: >>Personally, I think that it's obvious that "kibosh" comes from >>Yiddish. The analysis is clear. I'm familiar with the term. Yet, I >>know that it's not BE. That leaves Yiddish. Q.E.D. :-) >> > >It's hard to argue with that logic! > In that case, I think we have to regard "kibosh" as a scribal error for what should have been rendered as "kibbish". Maybe this is all revealed in the new book on Yiddish reviewed in today's Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/books/17grimes.html?_r=1&ref=books&oref=slogin). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 20:08:44 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:08:44 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710170429.l9H1Msgr032576@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., opposed to nays (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. m a m On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 17 20:03:11 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:03:11 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710171724.l9HFjNhq021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 > billion. I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview that aired). More here: http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 17 19:42:09 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:42:09 -0400 Subject: Denver Sandwich (1903); Western Sandwich (1908); Manhattan Sandwich (1909) Message-ID: DARE has "Denver Sandwich," and I'm told to look at its entry for "western sandwich." I don't know what that looks like and hope this helps. ... Surprisingly, I didn't find much help in Chronicling America (1900-1910). I did find one New York Tribune hit there that didn't really apply. Chronicling America has the 1900-1910 New York Tribune? Does the ProQuest NY Tribune version have a "Denver Sandwich" or "Western Sandwich"? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/western_sandwich_denver_sandwich_denver_omelet/ ... Entry from October 17, 2007 Western Sandwich (Denver Sandwich; Denver Omelet) A "Western sandwich" (also called a "Denver sandwich" or "Denver omelet") usually consists of an omelet with ham, onions, and green pepper, served between two slices of (usually toasted) bread. Earlier version of "ham toast" and "ham and egg on toast" were served in America (the East as well as the West) in the 19th century. It is claimed (see below, in 1954) that Denver restaurateur Albert A. McVittie invented the "Denver sandwich" in Denver in 1907, but the "Denver sandwich" appears in print at least as early as 1903. McVittie (who also served as president of the National Restaurant Association) appears in many newspaper articles before the 1950s, but there is no mention of the "Denver sandwich" in those articles. M. D. Looney (see below, in 1950) is another Denver 1907 claimant. It is also claimed (see below, in 1973) that the "Denver sandwich" was invented at Denver's Taber Hotel. The sandwich was called a "Western Sandwich" as early as 1908, cited in a San Antonio newspaper. A "Manhattan Sandwich" (cited from 1909) contained fried egg, minced ham, and onion. Wikipedia: Omelette An omelette or omlet is a preparation of beaten egg cooked with butter or oil in a frying pan, usually folded around a filling such as cheese, vegetables, meat, or some combination of the above. Gourmet cook Julia Child famously described an omelette as soft-cooked scrambled eggs wrapped in an envelope of firmly-cooked scrambled eggs. Many variations exist. (...) A Western omelette, also known as a Denver omelette, is an omelette sometimes filled with diced ham, onions, and green bell peppers, though there are many variations on fillings. Often served in the midwestern United States and sometimes has a topping of cheese and a sidedish of hashbrowns or fried potatoes. Food Timeline "Western. A sandwich composed of an omelet with green pepper, chopped ham, and onions on white bread or toast. It is sometimes called a "western omelet" (which first appeared in print in 1935; "western" in 1951) or, in Utah, a "Denver omelet" or "Denver sandwich") (in print since 1925) ---Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, John F. Mariani [Lebhar-Friedman:New York] 1999 (p. 345) (Dictionary of American Regional English) Denver omelet n Also Denver. Cf western sandwich An omelet containing ham, onions, and freq green pepper; hence n Denver sandwich such an omelet served between sliced of bread. 1925 Lewis Arrowsmith 258 Upper MW, You might bring me a Denver sandwich from the Sunset Trail Lunch. 1932 (1946) Hibben Amer. Regional Cookery 193, Denver Sandwich...Fry..chopped ham with the onion...Add slightly beaten eggs, parsley;...Mix together and let brown lightly...Pile between slices of hot buttered toast. 1940 Brown Amer. Cooks 69, Denver Sandwich...This solid snack was born in covered wagon days, when eggs had to be hauled in over long, hot trails. They got so high in flavor that the kindest thing to do was smother them in onions...Early cowboys called the great-grandaddy of the Denver Sandwich "Ham Toast." 1967 DARE FW Addit. cnNY, A western omelet or sandwich (egg, ham, pepper, onion) is called a Denver sandwich or omelet in the west. 1985 DARE File Denver CO, Th chef at the Brown Palace Hotel..says that out here a "denver" is an omelet made with ham, green peppers and onions. A "western" is a sandwich; it has the same ingredients as the "Denver," but is prepared in such a way that it can be eaten between two pieces of toast...They don't seem to use the "Denver" term back east. 16 April 1884, Perry (Iowa) Pilot, pg. 3, col. 2: HAM AND EGGS ON TOAST.?Chop fine cold broiled or baked ham. Toast and butter slices of stale bread; crush the crust with a napkin to soften it. Spread with the ham and set in the oven for three or four minutes. Beat six eggs with a half cupful of milk, a little pepper and salt. Put this in a saucepan and stir over the fire until it begins to thicken. Take off, beat well for a moment, spread over the ham on toast; serve hot immediately. 7 April 1903, Semi Weekly Iowa State Reporter (Waterloo, Iowa), pg. 6, col. 1: In those days he would hop to a new book like a hungry hobo to a Denver sandwich, and, weather permitting, he would have put it away on a back shelf, or off to a neighbor's before the mass of the people knew it was out of the printshop. 15 February 1908, Newark (OH) Advocate, pg. 6, col. 2: The lunch consisted of Denver sandwiches, raisin and mince pie, pickles, cheese, cakes and coffee. 5 August 1908, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 3, col. 7: Western Sandwiches. Chop fine uncooked bacon, green peppers and onions; to twelve slices of bacon use two green peppers (seeds removed), six onions size of an egg; season with salt and a little pepper. Fry until bacon is done, then scramble in two eggs. Place between white or rye bread. This makes a delicious sandwich. 3 December 1909, Janesville (WI) Daily Gazette, pg. 2, col. 6 ad: Ham Sandwich. Fried Ham Sandwich. Ham and Egg Sandwich. Dried Beef Sandwich. Egg Sandwich. Egg Beef Sandwich. Hamburg Sandwich. Escanaba Sandwich. Manhattan Sandwich. Denver Sandwich. (Razook's Candy Palace?ed.) 12 September 1911, Syracuse (NY) Herald, pg. 5, col. 3: Western Sandwich. Blend 1 c. of chopped or finely minced ham with 1 well beaten egg, season with a very little grated onion; saute in hot dripping made from the fat of the ham; place between toasted bread that has been dipped in a little hot milk, then butter and set in a hot oven for a few minutes to dry out. Serve hot. The sauted ham may be placed between very thin slices of bread. 7 March 1912, Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, WI), pg. 8, col. 3 ad: 1 cup of coffee and one Denver sandwich ... 20c (South Side Restaurant and Lunch Room?ed.) 8 November 1912, Janesville (WI) Daily Gazette, pg. 6, col. 2 ad: Egg Sandwich...10c Hamburg Sandwich...10c Escanaba Sandwich...10c Manhattan Sandwich...10c Denver Sandwich...10c (Razook's Candy Palace?ed.) 3 October 1915, Duluth (MN) News Tribune, section 3, pg. 1: It has become a dispensary for "ham an," sinkers, and coffee and the festive Denver sandwiches. 24 March 1917, Wilkes-Barre (PA) Times Leader, pg. 14 ad: THE HAMPTON (...) Western Omelette...30c June 1918, Hotel Monthly, "Lunch-Room Cafeteria in I.C.R.R.'s New 63d St. Station" (Chicago, IL), menu, pg. 62, col. 2: Sandwiches...Denver 15c 8 April 1919, Syracuse (NY) Herald, pg. 10, col. 4: Western Sandwiches. To 3 T. of finely minced ham add 2 t. grated onion and 1 well beaten egg, blend well and saute in hot drippings on both sides or butter. Place between 1/3 inch slices of bread. Lettuce may be used. May 1919, Hotel Monthly, pg. 75, col. 2: Sandwiches...Hot...Denver...40c 9 June 1922, Davenport (Iowa) Democrat and Leader, pg. 20, col. 5: Q. What is a Manhattan sandwich? A. W. A. A New York chef says that a Manhattan sandwich has a filling of fried egg, minced ham and onion. 19 April 1924, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 5: DENVER SANDWICH It's a food as well as a palatable, wholesome candy. This delicious confection has become extremely popular...10c (WALGREEN CO. ad?ed.) 6 September 1924, Los Angeles (CA) Times, pg. 6: DENVER SANDWICH Make twelve slices of toast and butter. Beat six eggs until light and beat into them two cupfuls of finely chopped boiled ham, two finely chopped small onions, and three finely chopped dill pickles. Heat three tablespoonfuls of butter in a sautepan, turn in the mixture and stir and cook five minutes; spread over six slices of the buttered toast, cover with six slices of toast, place one sandwich on a lettuce-covered plate, garnish with sliced dill pickle and serve. Time magazine New Pictures Monday, Apr. 05, 1926 (...) Desert Gold. Zane Grey has contributed another hair-raiser, in which a sand storm is a vast feature. It deals with the dangers surrounding a girl who lived on the edge of a Western desert, and how a brave lieutenant of cavalry (Neil Hamilton) preserved her from them. Western pictures, like Western sandwiches,? are much the same everywhere and good if you like them. ?A western sandwich is a ham and onion omelet with bread above and below. 26 June 1926, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part 1, pg. 12: Denver sandwiches are appetizing and form a well-balanced meal if fruit is the dessert. For six persons use one pound of smoked ham, chopped, six onions and six eggs. Cook the onions and ham in a frying pan, add the eggs and stir until they are well scrambled. Put between rolls of slices of toast. 31 May 1929, San Antonio (TX) Light, pg. 10B, col. 3: A Denver sandwich is made by scrambling eggs with cold boiled ham and onions which have been chopped and browned in butter in a frying pan on top of the wire grill. This may be served over slices of buttered bread or toast, and is delicious with sliced tomatoes or a potato salad. Time magazine Western Sandwich Monday, Mar. 29, 1937 A LAMP ON THE PLAINS?Paul Morgan ?Harper ($2.50). 24 January 1940, Wuakesha (WI) Freeman, pg. 3?, col. 3: "Western sandwich"?Denver sandwich. Time magazine The New Pictures Monday, Nov. 06, 1944 (...) Tall in the Saddle (RKO-Radio) is a western omelet made of the traditional ingredients and served up with a trifle more than the traditional style and fun. A hard young newcomer to town (John Wayne) renders a bruising account of himself in barroom, street and poker brawls, smokes out the skunk who killed his boss and, in the course of preventing a dove-soft eastern girl from being cheated of her inheritance, learns that he himself is the rightful heir to the K.C. Ranch. 14 July 1950, Amarillo (TX) Daily News, pg. 1, col. 1: IF YOU WILL bear with us a moment, we have a couple of footnotes to the Denver sandwich controversy. One tends to support the claim of M. D. Looney of Borger that he invented the Denver sandwich in 1907. Charlie Pryor of Amarillo backs Mr. Looney's thesis when he writes: "I was key clerk at $30 a month at the Brown Palace in Denver when Maude Adams was there. Sandwiches was all the food I could buy as the hotel did not furnish me with meals or room. The Manhattan (where Mr. Looney says he produced his first Denver sandwiches) was in the theatrical district and was famous for its KC steaks." On the other side, one R. A. Olatz of Portland, Me., called us by telephone. Said he was a tourist passing through. He can recall, he said, buying Denver sandwiches in Portland as long ago as 1898. Then, he said, they were made only with an egg and a slice of onion. 19 October 1952, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part VI, pg. 8: Western Omelet Add finely-diced onion, green pepper and ham to scrambled eggs and you have a Western omelet. Cook the onion and green pepper in a little butter or margarine first, if you like, until they are partly tender. 10 October 1954, Dallas (TX) Morning News, part V, pg. 15: Denver Sandwich Has Become Big Coast-to-Coast Favorite Sandwich tastes vary from place to place, and sometimes a regional favorite hits the spot nationally. So it is with the Denver or Western sandwich. The Denver sandwich composed of braised diced onion, green pepper, ham, seasoned and fried with an egg is perhaps listed on more restaurant menus than any other "name" sandwich. It may be served open faced, or closed, on toast or plain bread and its price ranged from low to medium, depending on the restaurant where it is ordered, the garnishment and the number of other foods included. At any price the Denver sandwich is good eating. The late Albert A. McVittie invented the Denver sandwich. Mr. McVittie was a native of Hamilton, Ont., was orphaned at an early age and grew up in Brooklyn. He followed a theatrical career for a short time, and finally in his theatrical wanderings, landed in Denver, in 1907, broke and hungry. He landed his first job in the Old Grand Central Restaurant near the Union Station. Travelers always in a hurry kept asking for some new kind of sandwich to tempt their appetites, and the Denver sandwich was Mr. McVitties inspired answer. It won its creator fame and fortune and a place for the city's name on menus across the nation. 23 March 1973, Hayward (CA) Daily Review, "Little Known Tasty Trivia," pg. 1H, col. 1: The famous Denver Sandwich was originated at the Taber Hotel in Denver. Seattle (WA) Post-Intelligencer DISHES COME WITH A LESSON IN HISTORY. (Life and Arts) From: Seattle Post-Intelligencer (Seattle, WA) Date: June 19, 2002 Byline: JOHN OWEN Columnist THE DENVER SANDWICH was invented by a buxom young beauty name Baby Doe in the kitchen of the Taber Hotel, which was owned by her husband, a Colorado silver mine millionaire. Hollandaise sauce was introduced by a French woman, Desiree Clary, who became queen of Sweden. Eggs Benedict was created in a Sicilian kitchen by the Franciscan saint of the same name. John L. Rafferty, captain of a fishing ketch, invented ketchup in 1802 to ward off scurvy in his crew. We have George Leonard Herter to thank for the above historical notes. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 17 22:12:42 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:12:42 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172008.l9HAlDwu021509@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Err... I don't get it. JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., opposed to nays (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. m a m On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 00:31:40 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 00:31:40 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710172115.l9HI27Wa004972@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Ben, I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated as it includes phrases. See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml English Language Hits 1 Billion Words LONDON, Apr. 26, 2006 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (AP) A massive language research database responsible for bringing words such as "podcast" and "celebutante" to the pages of the Oxford dictionaries has officially hit a total of 1 billion words, researchers said Wednesday. Drawing on sources such as weblogs, chatrooms, newspapers, magazines and fiction, the Oxford English Corpus spots emerging trends in language usage to help guide lexicographers when composing the most recent editions of dictionaries. The press publishes the Oxford English Dictionary, considered the most comprehensive dictionary of the language, which in its most recent August 2005 edition added words such as "supersize," "wiki" and "retail politics" to its pages. Oxford University Press lexicographer Catherine Soanes said the database is not a collection of 1 billion different words, but of sentences and other examples of the usage and spelling. "The corpus is purely 21st century English," said Judy Pearsall, publishing manager of English dictionaries. "You're looking at current English and seeing what's happening right now. That's language at the cutting edge." As hybrid words such as "geek-chic," "inner-child" or "gabfest" increase in usage, Pearsall said part of the research project's goal is to identify words that have lasting power. "English gets really creative, really fun. What we're putting in dictionaries is words that will stick around," she said. Launched in January 2000, the Oxford English Corpus is part of the world's largest-funded language research project, costing $90,000-$107,000 per year. It has helped identify how the spellings of common phrases have changed, such as "fazed by" to "phased by" or "free rein" to "free reign." "Buck naked" increasingly has evolved to "butt naked." The corpus collects evidence from all the places where English is spoken, whether from North America, Britain, the Caribbean, Australia or India, to reflect the most current and common usage of the English language. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:03:11 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >> billion. > > I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus > (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview > that aired). More here: > > http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Thu Oct 18 01:19:24 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:19:24 -0400 Subject: antedating "duck tape" 1899 In-Reply-To: <20071015080544.q96hg97c0k48s88k@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: >OED has 1902 > >1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, >1899; pg. 3; >Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] > Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, > Corresponding >Secretary of the Era Club. >Category: News [col. F] >...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, >especially in white and dark blue. > >1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: >05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical >Newspapers] Adv. >Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of >silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. What is the sense of "duck tape" here? A type of tape? If so, what is the sense of "tape"? More-or-less "fabric strip"? I assume "duck" means the type of fabric? If "duck tape" here means "tape made of duck" how did it "take the lead" in "washable suits"? As ornamentation? Or was the whole suit made of duck tape? And if it's just "tape made of duck" does it merit an entry in the dictionary? If it does, I suppose "canvas tape", "linen tape", etc. get entries too? [I see from the same time period (e.g.) linen tape girdles.] Or does the special collocation "duck tape" (used later for a type of adhesive tape) drag in its ancestor? I can't find "duck tape" in my poor-man's OED at a glance. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - Release Date: 10/17/2007 7:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 01:39:03 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:39:03 -0400 Subject: Another Google Books screwup & Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke Message-ID: Google Books is bad. Here's another example. ... I was researching a "Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke" that's popular on the internet (see below). I looked for three search terms: "Texas," "lawyer," and "dare shoot." ... Four results came back, including one from "The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook" by Dorothy J. Kaplan. The book's cover plainly is for a different book entirely: "Bits of Silver: Vignettes of the Old West" edited by Don Ward. ... How could this happen? Google, I can confuse a Texas history book with a diabetic cookbook all by myself, thank you! ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook - Page 262 by Dorothy J. Kaplan - 1972 - 125 pages "That's how it went down in Texas," the southern cowhands said. ... but did not quite dare shoot a county judge at the bench before witnesses. ... ... ... ... Funny Bone July 15, 2006 mexican bandit and texas ranger Filed under: Lawyer A Mexican bandit made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande from time to time and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas ranger decided to track him down. After a lengthy search, he traced the bandit to his favorite cantina, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said, "You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll blow your brains out." But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish. Fortunately, a bilingual lawyer was in the saloon and translated the Ranger's message. The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree in back of the cantina. "What did he say?" asked the Ranger. The lawyer answered, "He said 'Get lost, you turkey. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 01:45:40 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:45:40 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? Message-ID: For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from the mistakes of the Google coalition. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik [bapopik at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:39 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Another Google Books screwup & Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke Google Books is bad. Here's another example. ... I was researching a "Texas Bilingual Lawyer Joke" that's popular on the internet (see below). I looked for three search terms: "Texas," "lawyer," and "dare shoot." ... Four results came back, including one from "The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook" by Dorothy J. Kaplan. The book's cover plainly is for a different book entirely: "Bits of Silver: Vignettes of the Old West" edited by Don Ward. ... How could this happen? Google, I can confuse a Texas history book with a diabetic cookbook all by myself, thank you! ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Comprehensive Diabetic Cookbook - Page 262 by Dorothy J. Kaplan - 1972 - 125 pages "That's how it went down in Texas," the southern cowhands said. ... but did not quite dare shoot a county judge at the bench before witnesses. ... ... ... ... Funny Bone July 15, 2006 mexican bandit and texas ranger Filed under: Lawyer A Mexican bandit made a specialty of crossing the Rio Grande from time to time and robbing banks in Texas. Finally, a reward was offered for his capture, and an enterprising Texas ranger decided to track him down. After a lengthy search, he traced the bandit to his favorite cantina, snuck up behind him, put his trusty six-shooter to the bandit's head, and said, "You're under arrest. Tell me where you hid the loot or I'll blow your brains out." But the bandit didn't speak English, and the Ranger didn't speak Spanish. Fortunately, a bilingual lawyer was in the saloon and translated the Ranger's message. The terrified bandit blurted out, in Spanish, that the loot was buried under the oak tree in back of the cantina. "What did he say?" asked the Ranger. The lawyer answered, "He said 'Get lost, you turkey. You wouldn't dare shoot me.'" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Oct 18 02:06:59 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:06:59 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EE65@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2007, at 21:45, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of > Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of > great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British > Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working > with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of > digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from > the mistakes of the Google coalition. Is it the same as the Live.com book search? http://books.live.com Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 18 05:23:48 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710180031.l9HK1P8s021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > > > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > >> > >> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 > >> billion. > > > > I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus > > (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview > > that aired). More here: > > > > http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ > > I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on OUPblog: http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated > as it includes phrases. See > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml > > English Language Hits 1 Billion Words That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log even before I began my OUP affiliation: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Thu Oct 18 10:19:41 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:19:41 -0400 Subject: Cassidy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Finally, there's a review of the Cassidy book that takes the proper critical look at the book: "There are brief glimmers of light, especially in the essays regarding the development of the words 'dude' and 'jazz', but these are lost among the wreckage. For someone who criticizes Anglo-English dictionaries so stridently, Cassidy seems to fall into a similar trap. Convinced of his thesis and eager to disseminate his ideas, he fails to vet and solidify these connections enough so the reader can feel certain about them. Words are too powerful to be anything less than certain." Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 12:27:06 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:27:06 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172212.l9HLV6Bq021509@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My post should have read: > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > m a m > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 18 12:38:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:38:20 -0400 Subject: "yeah" Message-ID: It's clear to me that "nay" comes from the contraction of "no way." --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ > >On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay (,Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies and stories about the days of knights. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Thu Oct 18 13:01:52 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:52 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710180401.l9HM5ke1004974@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped and designed for visual pleasure in driving. ---Amy West >Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >From: Tom Zurinskas >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > >It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >don't park on it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Oct 18 13:41:21 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:41:21 -0500 Subject: Cassidy Message-ID: My thanks to Grant and the other ads-l members who have commented on Cassidy's writings. Btw, Cassidy also fails on "dude" and "jazz." I've already commented on "jazz" in an earlier ads-l message, and later I'll comment on "dude." Also, btw, although I'm ready to look for any insight at all in Cassidy's book (and rejoice if I find it), my overall evaluation of the book is that it's a scholarly disgrace. In haste, Gerald Cohen P.S. The etymology of "dude" was clarified by Barry Popik. ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Grant Barrett Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 5:19 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Cassidy Finally, there's a review of the Cassidy book that takes the proper critical look at the book: "There are brief glimmers of light, especially in the essays regarding the development of the words 'dude' and 'jazz', but these are lost among the wreckage. For someone who criticizes Anglo-English dictionaries so stridently, Cassidy seems to fall into a similar trap. Convinced of his thesis and eager to disseminate his ideas, he fails to vet and solidify these connections enough so the reader can feel certain about them. Words are too powerful to be anything less than certain." Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 14:36:40 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:36:40 -0400 Subject: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? In-Reply-To: <12C7A960-9E22-44D4-A753-5511A1A6746F@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Yes, the Live.com book search is the Beta site for this project. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Grant Barrett [gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Learning from the Lessons of Google Books? On Oct 17, 2007, at 21:45, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > For those like myself, who are dismayed by the shortcomings of > Google Books, some hope may be in sight. A second coalition of > great libraries (Yale, Cornell, University of California, British > Library, New York Public Library, University of Toronto) is working > with Microsoft to assemble a second very large collection of > digitized books. Perhaps the Microsoft coalition will learn from > the mistakes of the Google coalition. Is it the same as the Live.com book search? http://books.live.com Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 18 15:09:12 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:09:12 -0700 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710181227.l9IAkMLV000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, Wilson. It was Mark's note that "yea" / je / is used in the U.S. Congress that I didn't get. Maybe it's worth restating that one OE syn. of "yes" was / jE /. This has survived as / je / in parliamentary language and archaic biblical language. One would expect that modern {yeah}, {yeh}, and {yea} (all pronounced much as in OE and in use throughout the anglophone world) is likewise a direct survival of the same OE word. OED, however, does not show any modern exx. (other than the formal/frozen kind) until 1905. (_Yeah_: 1905 U.S.; _yeh_: 1920: U.K.). So what's the history of colloquial "yeah"? JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: "yeah" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My post should have read: > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > and stories about the days of knights. -Wilson On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > > Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > m a m > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Thu Oct 18 15:16:17 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:16:17 -0400 Subject: antedating duck tape 1899 Message-ID: There are several types of fabric tapes used in tailoring & dressmaking, for trimming, reinforcing and binding. Some of these are cut from broadcloth and have their edges folded under, and some are woven as tape, that is, selvedged so that they can't unravel. The "duck tape" of these entries is probably of the latter type. I think the adoption of "duck tape" as the name of the later adhesive-type of tape is a misnomer for "duct tape," a kind of water-based adhesive tape used to seal the joints in furnace ducts, which, in turn became the prototype of the contact- adhesive tape we all use to hold stuff together today. We discussed "duct-" and "duck-" tape here several years ago. AM Original Message: ----------------- From: Douglas G. Wilson douglas at NB.NET Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:19:24 -0400 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: antedating "duck tape" 1899 >OED has 1902 > >1899 The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Wednesday, February 08, >1899; pg. 3; >Issue 15; col E [19th C US Newspapers] > Woman?s World and Work Menu for Thursday Jeannie M. Gordon, > Corresponding >Secretary of the Era Club. >Category: News [col. F] >...In the washable suits for later wear pique and duck tape take the lead, >especially in white and dark blue. > >1907 San Jose Mercury News, published as Sunday Mercury and Herald; Date: >05-19-1907; Volume: LXXII; Issue: 139; Page: 4; [America's Historical >Newspapers] Adv. >Girdle corsets ...The Paris Model Corset...a good strong tape girdle made of >silk finished duck tape, boned with heavy steels. What is the sense of "duck tape" here? A type of tape? If so, what is the sense of "tape"? More-or-less "fabric strip"? I assume "duck" means the type of fabric? If "duck tape" here means "tape made of duck" how did it "take the lead" in "washable suits"? As ornamentation? Or was the whole suit made of duck tape? And if it's just "tape made of duck" does it merit an entry in the dictionary? If it does, I suppose "canvas tape", "linen tape", etc. get entries too? [I see from the same time period (e.g.) linen tape girdles.] Or does the special collocation "duck tape" (used later for a type of adhesive tape) drag in its ancestor? I can't find "duck tape" in my poor-man's OED at a glance. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1076 - Release Date: 10/17/2007 7:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 18:01:59 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:01:59 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: Anyone remember this? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ ... Entry from October 18, 2007 "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy fried okra instead. Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks up. Food Tale: Okra Okra (Abelmoschus esculentus) Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a coffee substitute. Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: (...) Old Homer Ogletree's so high On okra he keeps lots laid by. He keeps it in a safe he locks up, He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. (Which goes to show it's no misnomer When people call him Okra Homer. Okra! Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook Stewed Okra and Tomatoes Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed?that is, cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be at its best. (...) People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse to defend okra. It's delicious?so much so that I enjoy that slimey texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. Google Books 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so much okra I slid out of bed. 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic Monthly. "I don't even like the stuff?okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly is a dilly." I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up? (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra Homer.)" 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from slipping out." Google Groups: soc.motss Newsgroups: soc.motss From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How appetizing! Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove From: "Nancy" Date: 1998/10/03 Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to keep us from sliding out." Johnny Caker's Journal 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. (...) At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is slimey! 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) October 03, 2006 It's better if you fry it Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do you really like boiled okra? Ugh. (...) Comments you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a kid my socks would not stay up." Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM Food Network Forums Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just breading with a little seedy slime in it! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 18 18:39:27 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:39:27 -0700 Subject: "in power" Message-ID: Here's another example of the use of this phrase to mean "in office [because democratically elected]": 2007 _Fox News Live_ (FNC TV) (Oct. 18): [The Sarkozies] are the first French Presidential couple to split while they were in power. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 23:36:26 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:36:26 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710181802.l9IFrnFJ005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased to be unique in the eater's experience. I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. Who knows? -Wilson On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anyone remember this? > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > ... > Entry from October 18, 2007 > "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" > Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > fried okra instead. > > Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > up. > > > Food Tale: Okra > Okra > (Abelmoschus esculentus) > Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > > It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > > It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > coffee substitute. > > Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > > Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > (...) > Old Homer Ogletree's so high > On okra he keeps lots laid by. > He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > When people call him Okra Homer. > Okra! > > Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed?that is, > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > at its best. > (...) > People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > to defend okra. It's delicious?so much so that I enjoy that slimey > texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > Google Books > 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > much okra I slid out of bed. > > 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > > 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > > 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > out of bed." > > 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > > 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > Monthly. > > "I don't even like the stuff?okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > is a dilly." > > I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up? > (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > Homer.)" > > 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > slipping out." > > Google Groups: soc.motss > Newsgroups: soc.motss > From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > > "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > appetizing! > > Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > From: "Nancy" > Date: 1998/10/03 > Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > > BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > > 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > keep us from sliding out." > > Johnny Caker's Journal > 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > (...) > At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > slimey! > > 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > > Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > October 03, 2006 > It's better if you fry it > Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > > I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > (...) > Comments > you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > kid my socks would not stay up." > Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > > Food Network Forums > Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > > I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > breading with a little seedy slime in it! > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 18 23:44:35 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:44:35 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710181509.l9IAkMl7000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Oh, yeah. I get it, now. Yea, Jon! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry, Wilson. It was Mark's note that "yea" / je / is used in the U.S. Congress that I didn't get. > > Maybe it's worth restating that one OE syn. of "yes" was / jE /. This has survived as / je / in parliamentary language and archaic biblical language. One would expect that modern {yeah}, {yeh}, and {yea} (all pronounced much as in OE and in use throughout the anglophone world) is likewise a direct survival of the same OE word. OED, however, does not show any modern exx. (other than the formal/frozen kind) until 1905. (_Yeah_: 1905 U.S.; _yeh_: 1920: U.K.). > > So what's the history of colloquial "yeah"? > > JL > > > Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "yeah" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My post should have read: > > > "Nay(, Jim)" WAS USED in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > and stories about the days of knights. > > -Wilson > > > On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Err... > > > > I don't get it. > > > > JL > > > > Mark Mandel wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Mark Mandel > > Subject: Re: "yeah" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": > > 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually > > pl., opposed to nays (or noes). > > Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. > > > > m a m > > > > On 10/17/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > > Isn't "nay" a borrowing from the Danish dialect of Old Norse? "Nay(, > > > Jim)" in place of "no" or "naw" in the Saint Louis of my youth, but I > > > doubt that the history of its use is any more interesting than the > > > history of "it matters not," always used in place of "it doesn't > > > matter" or "I don't care." My WAG is that both usages stem from movies > > > and stories about the days of knights. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > -- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > ----- > -Sam'l Clemens > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 18 23:47:18 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:47:18 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710181636u4331eb3at9929db3130b074ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >Who knows? > >-Wilson Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into a dry okratini every night...) LH > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Barry Popik >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Anyone remember this? >> ... >> ... >> ... >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> ... >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> fried okra instead. >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> up. >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> Okra >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> coffee substitute. >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> (...) >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > Okra! >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> at its best. >> (...) >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> Google Books >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> out of bed." >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> Monthly. >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> is a dilly." >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> Homer.)" >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> slipping out." >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> appetizing! >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> From: "Nancy" >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> (...) >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> slimey! >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> October 03, 2006 >> It's better if you fry it >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> (...) >> Comments >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> Food Network Forums >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Oct 19 01:10:37 2007 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:10:37 -0300 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IMwdU1000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:47 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >Who knows? > >-Wilson Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into a dry okratini every night...) LH > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: ----- >> >> Anyone remember this? >> ... >> ... >> ... >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_ out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> ... >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> fried okra instead. >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> up. >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> Okra >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> coffee substitute. >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> (...) >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > Okra! >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> at its best. >> (...) >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> Google Books >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> out of bed." >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> Monthly. >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> is a dilly." >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> Homer.)" >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> slipping out." >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> appetizing! >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> From: "Nancy" >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> (...) >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> slimey! >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> October 03, 2006 >> It's better if you fry it >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> (...) >> Comments >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> Food Network Forums >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 00:24:49 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710190010.l9J0AdVL028086@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >DAD OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. LH > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Laurence Horn >Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:47 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >>Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >>appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >>nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >>native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >>eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >>to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >>I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >>grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >>snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >>have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >>Who knows? >> >>-Wilson > >Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. >Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >(Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >a dry okratini every night...) > >LH > >> >>On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >----- >>> >>> Anyone remember this? >>> ... >>> ... >>> ... >>> >>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_ >out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >>> ... >>> Entry from October 18, 2007 >>> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks >up!" >>> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >>> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >>> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >>> fried okra instead. >>> >>> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >>> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >>> up. >>> >>> >>> Food Tale: Okra >>> Okra >>> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >>> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >>> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >>> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >>> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >>> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >>> >>> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >>> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >>> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >>> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >>> >>> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >>> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >>> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >>> coffee substitute. >>> >>> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >>> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >>> >>> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> (...) >>> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >>> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >>> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >>> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >>> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> > Okra! >>> >>> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >>> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >>> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >>> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >>> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >>> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >>> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >>> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >>> at its best. >>> (...) >>> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >>> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >>> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >>> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >>> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >>> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >>> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >>> >>> Google Books >>> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >>> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >>> much okra I slid out of bed. >>> >>> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >>> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >>> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >>> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >>> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >>> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >>> >>> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >>> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >>> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >>> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >>> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >>> >>> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >>> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >>> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >>> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >>> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >>> out of bed." >>> >>> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >>> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >>> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >>> >>> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >>> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >>> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >>> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >>> Monthly. >>> >>> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >>> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >>> is a dilly." >>> >>> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >>> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >>> >>> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >>> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >>> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >>> Homer.)" >>> >>> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >>> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >>> slipping out." >>> >>> Google Groups: soc.motss >>> Newsgroups: soc.motss >>> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >>> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >>> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >>> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >>> >>> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >>> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >>> appetizing! > >> >>> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >>> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >>> From: "Nancy" >>> Date: 1998/10/03 >>> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> >>> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >>> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >>> >>> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >>> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >>> keep us from sliding out." >>> >>> Johnny Caker's Journal >>> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >>> (...) >>> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >>> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >>> slimey! >>> >>> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >>> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >>> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >>> >>> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >>> October 03, 2006 >>> It's better if you fry it >>> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >>> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >>> >>> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >>> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >>> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >>> (...) >>> Comments >>> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >>> kid my socks would not stay up." >>> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >>> >>> Food Network Forums >>> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >>> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >>> >>> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >>> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >>> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >>> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >>-- >>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >>come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET Fri Oct 19 00:31:17 2007 From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET (David Donnell) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:31:17 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710181302.l9IAkMP7000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park in a driveway." Interesting observation/background, in any case. DD >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Amy West >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >and designed for visual pleasure in driving. > >---Amy West > >>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>From: Tom Zurinskas >>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >> >>It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>don't park on it. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 19 00:34:01 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:34:01 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Country comedian Jerry Clower also had a routine about two dogs eating "slick, slimy boiled okra." It went down so fast that they both thought the other one got it all and they commenced to fighting. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 01:06:47 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:06:47 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IMwdU1000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >> I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> Who knows? The trick is to add a couple of tablespoons of vinegar while stewing or saut?ing. It makes short work of the slime. A story I heard as a kid was that okra seeds were brought to America by captive slaves, smuggled across the ocean on the slave ships in their hair. A bit of googling suggests I wasn't the only one to hear this story. It would be interesting to know where that story got started. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 01:25:26 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:25:26 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190031.l9IMKc4A005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Dave and Amy, Right, there are a bunch of those "old saws." I had a list at one time. I had never thought of "parkway" as being named to represent a park we drive through, but that works for me, even though they may not look like parks now. Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park. So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake. Otherwise I prefer "tidal wave" as in m-w.com. Main Entry: tidal wave Function: noun Date: 1851 1: something overwhelming especially in quantity or volume 2 a: an unusually high sea wave that is triggered especially by an earthquake b: an unusual rise of water alongshore due to strong winds Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:31:17 -0400 > From: David.Donnell at EARTHLINK.NET > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: David Donnell > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: > > "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park > in a driveway." > > Interesting observation/background, in any case. > > DD > >>Sender: American Dialect Society >>Poster: Amy West >>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >>sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >>in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >>and designed for visual pleasure in driving. >> >>---Amy West >> >>>Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>>From: Tom Zurinskas >>>Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>> >>>It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>>Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>>names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>>don't park on it. >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Oct 19 01:28:32 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:28:32 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Yeah Message-ID: As Jon has noted, dictionaries consider "yeah" a 20th-century word (Merriam-Webster gives a date of 1902), though it seems likely to be much older. I suspect that the key is to look for spellings other than "yeah." Even with just that spelling, though, colloquial "yeah" can be antedated. Most strikingly, it appears passim in the modern sense in Edwin Lassetter Bynner, Zachary Phips (1892) (Google Books full text). The first use is on page 9: "Yeah, I was." The speakers who say "yeah" tend to be schoolboys and sailors from the Boston area, though that may not be true of every use. It may or may not be significant that the book is a historical novel. Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll see 't stret to leeward." Of perhaps greater significance is this passage from an essay by Richard Jefferies (1848 - 1887), "Field Words and Ways," published posthumously in Richard Jefferies, Field and Hedgerow (1889) (Google Books full text), but probably reprinted from some earlier magazine publication. The essay discusses the language of English farmers and laborers; unfortunately, it is mostly unclear what part of England is intended, though it seems likely that Jefferies drew from his experiences living in Wiltshire or perhaps Surrey: <> John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Fri Oct 19 01:41:36 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: Etymology of "dude" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As promised earlier today, here's information about "dude." Credit for locating the key articles that help clarify its etymology go to Barry Popik and Sam Clements. 1) Barry first spotted a May 1881 article in _Clothier and Furnisher_, vol. 13, no. 10, pp. 27-28 (reprinted in my _Comments on Etymology_ April 1997, pp. 2-3 and then Oct. 1998, pp. 1-2). The 1881 article is titled "Definition Of The Word Dude" and says in part: "...It is not exactly slang, but has not rooted itself in the language and has not, therefore, a precise and accepted meaning. The word pronounced in two syllables as if spelled 'doody' has been in occasional use in some New England towns for more than a score of years. It was probably born as a diminutive of dandy, and applied to the feeble personators of the real fop. ..." >From this 1881 passage just above, it looks like "Yankee Doodle Dandy" produced a blend of "dood(le)" and "dandy" in some New England towns prior to 1883, with shortening to "dude" (one syllable) by 1883. 1883 is when "dude" burst on the American scene. 2) A second very important discovery was made by Sam Clements (1/15/2004 ads-l message), who had spotted a relevant 1879 article: 5 April 1879, _Burlington (IA) Weekly Hawkeye_ 6/4 (Reprinted from the _Boston Herald_); title: "Concord Reminiscences About Thoreau, Hawthorne and Emerson": "Julian Hawthorne [Nathaniel's son] came home from Italy when a very small boy. He wore long curls, and the Concord boys plagued him in the usual tough way of boys. They called him "Sissy" and "Yankee Doodle," and finally they ridiculed the poor lad till he petitioned for a barber to cut off his locks." This 1879 quote clarifies that "Yankee Doodle" could specifically be used to ridicule a dandy (outside the song). So "Dood" of "Yankee Doodle (Dandy)" is almost certainly the source of 19th century "dude," either directly or via shortening of the "doody" mentioned in the 1881 _Clothier and Furnisher_ article. Note: When "dude" burst on the American scene in 1883, its meaning was different from that of modern times. The earlier meaning "an effete, young brainless youth imitating in speech and dress what he considered to be representative of high British fashion (particularly Oscar Wilde)." The cartoonists and other humorists had a field day with this character. As soon as time permits, I would like to compile all the "dude" material from the Comments on Etymology treatments into a unified presentation, with due credit of course. Meanwhile, anyone interested in looking at the available material may start with my item "_Dude_" from _Yankee Doodle_-- Confirming Evidence From an 1879 Newspaper Article," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 33, no. 7, April 2004, pp. 2-3. The article's selected bibliography permits a researcher to work backwards for the earlier Comments on Etymology treatments. In the meantime, thanks and congratulations to Barry and Sam for their work on this subject. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 01:56:33 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:56:33 +0000 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <200710180533.l9I2HKkC021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what does "word" mean? Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>> >>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>> billion. >>> >>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>> that aired). More here: >>> >>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >> >> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. > > If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of > specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on > OUPblog: > > http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > >> Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >> as it includes phrases. See >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >> >> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words > > That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log > even before I began my OUP affiliation: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Oct 19 02:00:26 2007 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:00:26 -0500 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) Message-ID: He was referring to the size of the corpus: "Because the corpus is a collection of texts, there are not two billion different words: the humble word 'the', the commonest in the written language, accounts for almost 100 million of all the words in the corpus!" http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/?view=uk -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 8:56 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what does "word" mean? Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 > From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> >>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>> >>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>> >>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>> billion. >>> >>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>> that aired). More here: >>> >>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >> >> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. > > If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of > specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on > OUPblog: > > http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ > >> Regarding the number of words, I found this below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >> as it includes phrases. See >> >> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >> >> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words > > That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log > even before I began my OUP affiliation: > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 02:15:54 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190125.l9IL86Yh005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like circular troll country once again. BB Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park. > > So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:30:15 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:30:15 -0400 Subject: "yeah" In-Reply-To: <200710172212.l9HK1Ppe021481@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, I should have made it explicit. I was trying to contribute to the discussion of "nay", more than of "yea": Parliamentary procedure. OED under "yea, adv. (n.)": 2. An affirmative vote; a person who votes in the affirmative: usually pl., ***opposed to nays*** (or noes). Still in use in the U.S. Congress. Cf. AYE. On 10/17/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Err... > > I don't get it. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:36:43 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:36:43 -0400 Subject: Antedating of Yeah In-Reply-To: <200710190128.l9IL86Z5005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Lorboard" ("larboard") I understand here, as a synonym for "port" 'left'. But "to leeward"? That means 'downwind'. I wonder if Bynner knew that, or just thought it was another one of those peculiar nautical synonyms for "left" and "right". m a m On 10/18/07, Baker, John wrote: > > > Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in > dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full > text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an > inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go > off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll > see 't stret to leeward." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 02:42:41 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:42:41 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: <2B9C268F14E3E647845C2AA0195E2C96026A26F2@UM-XMAIL03.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: At 9:00 PM -0500 10/18/07, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >He was referring to the size of the corpus: > >"Because the corpus is a collection of texts, >there are not two billion different words: the >humble word 'the', the commonest in the written >language, accounts for almost 100 million of all >the words in the corpus!" >http://www.askoxford.com/oec/mainpage/?view=uk Maybe we need to introduce a unit on the type/token distinction. LH >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Tom Zurinskas >Sent: Thu 10/18/2007 8:56 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) > >So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion >words? And what does "word" mean? >Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a >page, then it would take 10,000 pages to list 1 >billion. > >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus >"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 01:23:48 -0400 >> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >>mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer >> Subject: Re: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>> >>>> From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU >>>> >>>> On 10/17/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good job, Ben. Is it 2 billion words in >>>>>English? I thought I read somewhere 1 >>>>> billion. >>>> >>>> I was talking about the two billion words in the Oxford English Corpus >>>> (which was only discussed obliquely in the snippets of the interview >>>> that aired). More here: >>>> >>>> http://www.askoxford.com/oec/ >>> >>> I found nothing at the site edress you gave. Too general. >> >> If you click through to the links on that page, you'll find plenty of >> specific information. I also frequently write about the Corpus on >> OUPblog: >> >> http://blog.oup.com/category/reference/a_to_zimmer/ >> >>> Regarding the number of words, I found this >>>below. Turns out the 1 billion is overstated >>> as it includes phrases. See >>> >>> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/26/ap/strange/mainD8H7NGDG0.shtml >>> >>> English Language Hits 1 Billion Words >> >> That was a laughably bad headline that I wrote about on Language Log >> even before I began my OUP affiliation: >> >> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html >> >> >> --Ben Zimmer >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >_________________________________________________________________ >Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at >the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. >http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 19 02:44:59 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:44:59 -0400 Subject: National Dictionary Day on ABC World News (must-see!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >So Ben, does English have 1 billion or 2 billion words? And what >does "word" mean? >Say 100 words with definitions would fit on a page, then it would >take 10,000 pages to list 1 billion. Let's try that again! A billion (US) is a thousand million (1,000,000,000). At 100 headwords per page, a billion headwords would require 10,000,000 (ten million) pages. Obviously an unwieldy dictionary. A _million_ headwords at 100 per page will require 10,000 pages: a book the size of the OED, roughly, I guess. Not infeasible at all. It is reasonable to say that there are about a million English words/lexemes, as an order-of-magnitude estimate. Of course it depends on criteria for inclusion, distinctness, etc., etc. Crystal ("Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language") gives a million (1,000,000) as a conservative estimate, gives 500,000 as the approximate number of headwords in a large dictionary (OED, 1992), gives 2,000,000 as a reasonable possibility. There is no possibility of a billion distinct lexical items, IMHO ... as I think Ben Zimmer pointed out. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 02:48:33 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:48:33 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710182347.l9IJ8llV000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and > >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from > >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a > >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to > >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased > >to be unique in the eater's experience. > > > >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the > >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig > >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may > >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. > >Who knows? > > > >-Wilson > > Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and > I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, > since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. > Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took > getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. > (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure > I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be > a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into > a dry okratini every night...) > > LH > > > > >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the > >>mail header ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Barry Popik > >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Anyone remember this? > >> ... > >> ... > >> ... > >> > >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > >> ... > >> Entry from October 18, 2007 > >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my socks up!" > >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > >> fried okra instead. > >> > >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > >> up. > >> > >> > >> Food Tale: Okra > >> Okra > >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) > >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > >> > >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > >> > >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > >> coffee substitute. > >> > >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > >> > >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> (...) > >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high > >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. > >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> When people call him Okra Homer. > > > Okra! > >> > >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > >> at its best. > >> (...) > >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey > >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > >> > >> Google Books > >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > >> much okra I slid out of bed. > >> > >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > >> > >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > >> > >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > >> out of bed." > >> > >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > >> > >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > >> Monthly. > >> > >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > >> is a dilly." > >> > >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > >> > >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up > >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > >> Homer.)" > >> > >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > >> slipping out." > >> > >> Google Groups: soc.motss > >> Newsgroups: soc.motss > >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > >> > >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > >> appetizing! > >> > >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > >> From: "Nancy" > >> Date: 1998/10/03 > >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> > >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > >> > >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > >> keep us from sliding out." > >> > >> Johnny Caker's Journal > >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > >> (...) > >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > >> slimey! > >> > >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > >> > >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > >> October 03, 2006 > >> It's better if you fry it > >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > >> > >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > >> (...) > >> Comments > >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > >> kid my socks would not stay up." > >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > >> > >> Food Network Forums > >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > >> > >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 03:06:06 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190215.l9IJ8lwN000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Something like that. Scot PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like circular troll country once again. BB> > Tom Zurinskas wrote:> > Point was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someone said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquake. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving through a park.> >> > So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" actually does relfect causation by an earthquake.> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 03:08:52 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:08:52 -0500 Subject: Recent Nature articles Message-ID: I heard on NPR last week that a recent issue of Nature had three(?) articles on language; one was on irregular verbs. I would like access to them, but my school access has run out (if that would have helped) and I don't want get a subscription for a few articles. Does anyone have copies of these articles or know a good way to get a look at them? Thanx for any help offered. Scot _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 03:11:03 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:11:03 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190031.l9IMKc4A005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There's a tendency to remove such words from the language. AFAIK, nobody uses the word "parkway" for any sort of a road unless the road is named XX Parkway, and even then, they probably say "drive down the Parkway" not "drive down the parkway". BB David Donnell wrote: > I think Tomspel was whupping out this cheesy old saw: > > "English is the only language where you drive on a parkway and park > in a driveway." > > Interesting observation/background, in any case. > > DD > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Amy West >> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Perhaps this is simply obvious bait that I'm falling for, but the >> sense of "park" in "parkway" is not the verb but the noun "park" as >> in land set aside for recreation and enjoyment. They were landscaped >> and designed for visual pleasure in driving. >> >> ---Amy West >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:01:27 +0000 >>> From: Tom Zurinskas >>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >>> >>> It's always been in "American" :) English called a "tidal wave". >>> Shall we start calling hurricanes, typhoons? :). We do live with >>> names that are a bit incongruous, like "parkway" even though we >>> don't park on it. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 03:12:50 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710181948m547424a8sebbea551b19b025a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! > >-Wilson The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> > >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >Who knows? >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> a dry okratini every night...) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> ... >> >> ... >> >> ... >> >> >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> ... >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >>socks up!" >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> Okra >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> (...) >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be >> >> at its best. >> >> (...) >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> keep us from sliding out." >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> (...) >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> (...) >> >> Comments >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Fri Oct 19 03:17:47 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:17:47 -0500 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: I can't resist quoting a friend, "There's only one thing I eat that's hairy on the outside and slimy on the inside, and it isn't okra." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson Gray" It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased to be unique in the eater's experience. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Fri Oct 19 03:18:53 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:18:53 -0400 Subject: Gism (1901): a second thought In-Reply-To: <20070919014506.OWHY4108.mta13.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow .nb.net> Message-ID: >---------- > >E. D. Gillespie, _A Book of Remembrances_ (Lippincott, Philadelphia, >1901): p. 33: > ><story to my grandmother she instantly wrote these verses: / ... / >"Now, mother, when we wish to soar / And cut a dash at 'Bellespore,' >/ You will repeat some vulgarism, / What we call nectar you call gism.">> > >---------- > >This verse, ostensibly quoted from E. D. Gillespie's mother, would >have been written around 1800, I think. The context: a bookish girl >had claimed that her sister had gone out to read poetry ("Night >Thoughts"), but their unpretentious mother had spoiled the illusion >by saying that the girl had gone out to get "a mess of poke". > >I don't know what "Bellespore" means ("Belle Espoir"?). > >What does "gism" mean here? What pronunciation is expressed by "gism" here? Is this isolated ca.-1800 word /gIzm/ or /dZIzm/? If it's /dZIzm/ (like "jism") it's surely reasonable to _try_ to relate it to the "jism" later used for "spirit"/"vigor" or so and for "semen". But what if it's /gIzm/? Then one might attempt an association with dialectal "gizzen"/"gizzern"/"gizzem"/etc. = "gizzard"/"throat", right? SND shows "gizzern" with variants. DARE shows "gizzle" = "goozle" = "goozlem" = "guzzle" = "throat". Also "goozlum" = "viscous food such as a sauce, gravy, or pudding ...". IF there was a word (ca. 1800) pronounced /gIzm/ meaning "gravy" or so, it would explain the "gism" in the above quotation. But how (if at all) would one relate it to the later "gism"/"jism"? Is a /g/ > /dZ/ mutation explainable/believable? Also note "gizzard" (in HDAS, etc.) with sense similar to "jism"/"jasm". Any thoughts? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 19 05:11:37 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:11:37 -0400 Subject: "shoestring" (attr) ="spending little; cheap; petty" 1759 antedates 1890- Message-ID: She assumes the Authority of the Step mother.--She wears more Airs of Reserve, and Distance, and Superiority than your Father.ⅆShe is not the most discreet Woman, She told the Behavior of the people, at the Tavern they were at in the Country about the Tea, before all the Monatiquot officers, shoe string fellows that never use Tea and would use it as [awkwardly?] as the Landlady did. That was quite imprudent [and] impopular. It was designed to divert and please, but it had a contrary Effect. It made them all jealous and suspicious that they were remarked and laughed at as much to the next Company. p. 114 1759 summer antedates OED3 sense 4.b "spending little; cheap; petty" 1890- Diary and Autobiography of John Adams Ed. L. H. Butterfield 1961 The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Fri Oct 19 11:35:19 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:35:19 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, > Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > > http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > > Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, > and me, along with unnamed others. > > > --Ben Zimmer Thanks. And she mentions George A. Thompson Jr. and his 1912 jazz find. Earlier in the article, she wrote of "a dedicated cadre of DIY word-researchers who don't want to wait for the OED's revision process to get around to updating the words they're interested in." Now I know that not all proposed antedatings are interesting--or even all reliable--and that OED has a plan to review all articles, and can't do everything instantly. But a Boston Globe reader who goes to the usually-quite-excellent but occasionally quite-mistaken OED might fairly wonder why that 1912 quotation does not appear, and, also, that a 1909 quotation (properly?) disputed by--the late--David Shulman (1912-2004) does appear. Jazz is probably an often-consulted word. (Perhaps the online hits are recorded). Isn't that worth an out-of-sequence (and easy) correction (as e.g., Dave Wilton suggested some time ago)? Or removing the Hoosier 1926 citation that was proven to be misdated, yet again, in the Indiana Magazine of History? Or in boondoggle--another oft-consulted word, I'd guess--mentioning the August 14, 1929 Punch article, cited, e.g., by Jon Lighter in Atlantic back in March of 1995? Or simply removing the contradiction in the Poontang entry? Or at Copacetic, noting that the 1919 author having made it up (spelled copasetic) for the unique use of Mrs. Lukins is more plausible than those guesses currently listed? Or re-addressing scholarship for the outdated Element and Nazarene entries? (E.g., might OED readers prefer to know about the cuneiform tablet find at Hazor probably mentioning Nazareth?) Or in the Essene entry, instead of citing a book that was fairly good, that is, for 1864, that listed 19 etymology proposals--actually, there have been more than 60 different proposals published--mentioning that only one of these proposals, made first, as far as I know, by Philip Melanchthon in 1532, has evidently been confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Or, at least, that an increasing list of scholars recognize this? There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 19 12:03:56 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:03:56 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) Message-ID: It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful (or at least more colorful). --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" > >The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 13:38:03 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710190306.l9IJ8l0l000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com Main Entry: tsu?na?mi Pronunciation: \(t)su?-?n?-m?\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave Date: 1897 : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Something like that. > =20 > Scot > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec= > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS= > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea= > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: = > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------= > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks = > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point= > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo= > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak= > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though= > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving= > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped = > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac= > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------= > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/= > /www.americandialect.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0= > Get it now. > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= > 6971033= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Fri Oct 19 13:57:29 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:57:29 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710191203.l9JAlVGZ032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A more yuppified version might have been called, albeit erroneously, yam frits. ;) (the other) doug It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful (or at least more colorful). --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 19 14:18:48 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:18:48 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <20071019080356.IEX00316@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >It's good to hear that civilization has arrivred in New Haven, and >that Larry is relishing the gustemic delights thereof. > >One point: How "traditional" are sweet-potato fries? Having eaten >Southern cooking (black and white) all my life, I had never >encountered them until just a dozen or so years ago--at an upscale, >yuppified, thoroughly nonSoul restaurant. I assumed that some >comparatively recent innovator came up with the bright (and tasty) >idea of adapting french fried potatoes into something more healthful >(or at least more colorful). > >--Charlie I assume the same. They're now a frequent addition in college dining halls too. (Sweet potato chips are also thriving.) LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- > >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:12:50 -0400 >>From: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" >> >>The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >>(http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >>chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >>although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >>that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >>okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dave at WILTON.NET Fri Oct 19 14:21:54 2007 From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:21:54 -0700 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Going beyond simply correcting known errors faster, a neat feature would be inclusion of "unedited" citations in the online edition. A button, similar to the one that displays the 2nd Edition entry, could display unedited/unverified citations when the reader requests. You could even have a comment feature where readers could send in or comment on citations by clicking through. (Probably not public comments, given the nature of the OED, but ones that go directly to a database for consideration by the editors when they get to that word in the revision cycle. Make submitting citations and corrections easier.) This would be a fair amount of work to implement and maintain (and I imagine that it's probably not practical to put every citation in the Oxford database online--some I understand are still on paper slips), but it could end up generating more material and saving effort in the long run by engaging a wider group in helping with the editing. And you'd still maintain quality control by having the "official" edited entry. And it would make the dictionary more valuable by pointing researchers to citations that they otherwise might miss--they'd have to verify them themselves, of course. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:35 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Quoting Benjamin Zimmer : > Another media appearance for ADS-Lers... In the Sunday Boston Globe, > Erin McKean subbed for Jan Freeman, writing about antedating as sport: > > http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/10/14/what_came_first/ > > Discusses antedatings from Barry Popik, Jerry Cohen, Grant Barrett, > and me, along with unnamed others. > > > --Ben Zimmer Thanks. And she mentions George A. Thompson Jr. and his 1912 jazz find. Earlier in the article, she wrote of "a dedicated cadre of DIY word-researchers who don't want to wait for the OED's revision process to get around to updating the words they're interested in." Now I know that not all proposed antedatings are interesting--or even all reliable--and that OED has a plan to review all articles, and can't do everything instantly. But a Boston Globe reader who goes to the usually-quite-excellent but occasionally quite-mistaken OED might fairly wonder why that 1912 quotation does not appear, and, also, that a 1909 quotation (properly?) disputed by--the late--David Shulman (1912-2004) does appear. Jazz is probably an often-consulted word. (Perhaps the online hits are recorded). Isn't that worth an out-of-sequence (and easy) correction (as e.g., Dave Wilton suggested some time ago)? Or removing the Hoosier 1926 citation that was proven to be misdated, yet again, in the Indiana Magazine of History? Or in boondoggle--another oft-consulted word, I'd guess--mentioning the August 14, 1929 Punch article, cited, e.g., by Jon Lighter in Atlantic back in March of 1995? Or simply removing the contradiction in the Poontang entry? Or at Copacetic, noting that the 1919 author having made it up (spelled copasetic) for the unique use of Mrs. Lukins is more plausible than those guesses currently listed? Or re-addressing scholarship for the outdated Element and Nazarene entries? (E.g., might OED readers prefer to know about the cuneiform tablet find at Hazor probably mentioning Nazareth?) Or in the Essene entry, instead of citing a book that was fairly good, that is, for 1864, that listed 19 etymology proposals--actually, there have been more than 60 different proposals published--mentioning that only one of these proposals, made first, as far as I know, by Philip Melanchthon in 1532, has evidently been confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Or, at least, that an increasing list of scholars recognize this? There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 19 14:26:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:26:18 -0700 Subject: Antedating of Yeah In-Reply-To: <200710190236.l9IL86hT005541@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe there was a big wind blowin' just then. JL Mark Mandel wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: Antedating of Yeah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Lorboard" ("larboard") I understand here, as a synonym for "port" 'left'. But "to leeward"? That means 'downwind'. I wonder if Bynner knew that, or just thought it was another one of those peculiar nautical synonyms for "left" and "right". m a m On 10/18/07, Baker, John wrote: > > > Bynner also used "yeah," but apparently only once and in > dialect, in an earlier novel, Agnes Surriage (1886) (Google Books full > text), which has a Massachusetts boy, asked if he can tell the way to an > inn, say: "Yeah, can oi; g' down ther' by Skipper-r Pennel's, 'n' go > off on th' lorboard tack till ye come to Moll Pitcher's; 'n' ther' ye'll > see 't stret to leeward." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 14:38:11 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:38:11 -0500 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710191357.l9JAlVdt027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I got an email from the folks who produced "Balderdash & Piffle" for the BBC (the show which looks for antedatings for words -- mostly British slang). Among other things, it pointed to a "Hall of Fame" page on the OED's website for people who helped research terms from the second season of the show. A few of the names will be recognized from the ADS-L. http://www.oed.com/bbcwordhunt/acknowledge.html Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 14:40:11 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:40:11 -0500 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710190315.l9IJ8l1N000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > I can't resist quoting a friend, "There's only one thing I > eat that's hairy on the outside and slimy on the inside, and > it isn't okra." > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Uh, kiwi fruit? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 19 15:13:33 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:13:33 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But getting back to basics, before 'tsunami' became popular, the correct name was 'seismic sea wave', not 'tidal wave'. But the phrase 'tidal wave ' is stuck in popular imagery, and in ways that have nothing to do with earthquakes, waves, or tides. --- Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with > those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain > it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic > principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor > wave", which to me does not have the impact of a > "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date > associated - 1851, see m-w.com > > Main Entry: tsu??na??mi > Pronunciation: \(t)su??-??n??-m??\ > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami > Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave > Date: 1897 > : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine > earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave > > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the > phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has > that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that > the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation. > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus > "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500 > > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" > files for Social Security) > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Scot LaFaive > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" > files for Social Security) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Something like that. > > =20 > > Scot > > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful. > >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: > gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec= > > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for > Social Security)> To: ADS= > > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- > Information from the mail hea= > > der -----------------------> Sender: American > Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin > Barrett > Subject: Re: = > > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > Security)> --------------= > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> > Looks = > > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom > Zurinskas wrote:>> Point= > > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be > dropped for "tsunami". Someo= > > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the > cause, which is an earthquak= > > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, > like parkway, even though= > > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" > doesn't resemble driving= > > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why > "tidal wave" is dropped = > > and who is responsible for dropping it goes > unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac= > > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> > ------------------------= > > ------------------------------------> The American > Dialect Society - http:/= > > /www.americandialect.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook > =96 together at last. =A0= > > Get it now. > > > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062= > > 6971033= > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the > Messenger Caf??. Stop by today. > http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 19 15:48:10 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:48:10 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:35:19AM -0400, Stephen Goranson wrote: [...] > There are plainly some quite smart people working for OED. (There's that > annoyingly-competent...what's his name?) I've made plenty of mistakes, but > perhaps allow me to suggest that asking the public to antedate words for which > OED may have earlier, undisclosed citations already in hand could be > construed by some folk as more officious (as well as less efficient) than > strictly necessary. OED may be missing full advantage of online collaborative > research; a great and wonderful book could be even better edited. A relatively > simple change in editing practice could yield great improvements and speed > contributions to learning. Thanks for your consideration. I can't respond at length to this, but do want to make a few points. First, the OED is planning in the near future to published revised versions of out-of-sequence entries; in other words, we will be able to work on existing entries (in contrast to our current practice of editing in alphabetical sequence only, and publishing new-word updates from anywhere in the alphabet). This should address some of the concerns relating to major entries that have flaws. Second, much of this work is _extremely_ time consuming. It may look obvious that if there's a bogus quotation or a prominent antedating, you can just take it out or slip it in, but it usually doesn't work like that--there are a lot of things to consider, entries might have to be rewritten, etymologists consulted, consultants consulted, etc. Revising the entry for _jazz_ will be a major effort--one which we will likely undertake, but not one that can be approximated by pulling the 1909 quote and sneaking in the 1912. We appreciate the frustration that surrounds OED's frequent outdatedness, and we have various plans to deal with it. We are also of course grateful for the enormous contributions made by outside volunteers, many of whom are on this list. But the revision process is not a simple process, I'm afraid. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 15:52:52 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191338.l9JAlVNB032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. Scot > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> > Main Entry: tsu??na??mi> Pronunciation: \(t)su??-??n??-m??\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Date: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500> > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Scot LaFaive> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Something like that.> > =20> > Scot> > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful.> >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=> > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=> > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=> > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: => > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------=> > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks => > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=> > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=> > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=> > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though=> > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving=> > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is dropped => > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac=> > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------=> > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/=> > /www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0=> > Get it now.> > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062=> > 6971033=> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf??. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Oct 19 15:54:39 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:54:39 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <001e01c8125b$67441c60$6601a8c0@viper> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 07:21:54AM -0700, Dave Wilton wrote: > Going beyond simply correcting known errors faster, a neat feature would be > inclusion of "unedited" citations in the online edition. A button, similar > to the one that displays the 2nd Edition entry, could display > unedited/unverified citations when the reader requests. You could even have > a comment feature where readers could send in or comment on citations by > clicking through. (Probably not public comments, given the nature of the > OED, but ones that go directly to a database for consideration by the > editors when they get to that word in the revision cycle. Make submitting > citations and corrections easier.) > > This would be a fair amount of work to implement and maintain (and I imagine > that it's probably not practical to put every citation in the Oxford > database online--some I understand are still on paper slips), but it could > end up generating more material and saving effort in the long run by > engaging a wider group in helping with the editing. And you'd still maintain > quality control by having the "official" edited entry. And it would make the > dictionary more valuable by pointing researchers to citations that they > otherwise might miss--they'd have to verify them themselves, of course. I think doing something like this would prove to be extremely confusing and useless to almost everyone who looked at it, unless an extremely large amount of editorial effort were involved. (An example where such effort has been expended is the OED's science fiction project, at http://www.jessesword.com/sf, which does in fact link to the OED's citation databases for the relevant words, but even here there are significant problems with the list.) As someone who gets to see the kind of comments the OED gets from the general public, trust me when I say that encouraging more of this would involve an exceptional amount of editorial time and energy with very little positive result. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Oct 19 16:03:42 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:03:42 EDT Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, 11 people were credited for Bloody Mary," but the first citation was found me (uncredited) me? It took me a great many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Oct 19 16:46:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191338.l9JAlVNB032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an earthquake or volcanic eruption. The morpheme tsu (?) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (?) means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English, which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave. * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguages.wordpress.com Tom Zurinskas wrote: > From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com > > Main Entry: tsu??na??mi > Pronunciation: \(t)su??-??n??-m??\ > Function: noun > Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami > Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave > Date: 1897 > : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 16:55:16 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:55:16 -0500 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710191603.l9JFdOcO032254@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE As I understand it, these names are not those people who researched a term, but those who sent info to the "B&P" team who were producing the show. I sent contributions to 'balderdash at bbc.co.uk'. They weren't useful, so I don't appear in the Hall of Fame. I suppose I could have sent the early Bloody Mary citation you found to them, and appeared on the list. But that's not how I roll. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry A. Popik > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:04 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, > 11 people were credited for Bloody Mary," but the first > citation was found me (uncredited) me? It took me a great > many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From slang at ABECEDARY.NET Fri Oct 19 17:28:41 2007 From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:28:41 +0100 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <200710191554.l9JAlVs7027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I think doing something like this would prove to be extremely > confusing and useless to almost everyone who looked at it, > unless an extremely large amount of editorial effort were > involved. (An example where such effort has been expended is > the OED's science fiction project, at > http://www.jessesword.com/sf, which does in fact link to the > OED's citation databases for the relevant words, but even here > there are significant problems with the list.) > > As someone who gets to see the kind of comments the OED gets > from the general public, trust me when I say that encouraging > more of this would involve an exceptional amount of editorial > time and energy with very little positive result. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > > Jesse is absolutely right. The public at large may be well-meaning, but lexicographical professionals and/or scholars they are not. As I suggested in a talk at this year's DSNA, the finding of antedates is still pretty much a lottery, but those of us who pursue the task as professionals are still the best qualified for the task. When the OED put out their list of terms to be antedated for this year's series of Balderdash & Piffle I found that of the slang examples my database could better two-thirds and equal the remainder. My intention is not to boast: this is my job, I _ought_ to be able to do so. My partner Susie Ford, researching for me at the British Library on a vast range of slang-related materials, finds antedates great and small almost every working day. We don't parade them, it's simply one part - and undoubtedly a satisfying one - of what we do in making a dictionary. The producers of B&P filmed me for two shows, and used one; their problem being, I was told, that they couldn't keep throwing forward the same smart-ass. Quite right, but as Jesse implies, and as the B&P team told me, while the public are keen, all too often it's a matter of 'my grandmother/great-uncle/milkman's mother-in-law' used to say....' And nary a syllable's supporting data. Or, if etymologies are essayed, that for instance the great monosyllable is _definitely_ an acronym of 'fornicate under command of the king'. Of course we cannot expect them to be lexicographers, but that's the point; they aren't and the best of intentions won't make it so. And as Jesse points out, such a flood of ultimately irrelevant information merely clogs the machine - and its maintenance requires more than enough energy as it is. JG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 18:38:02 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:38:02 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191553.l9JAl045027421@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think pronouncing those silent letters is a worthy pursuit. So many pronunciations are capricious. One that follows the alphabetic principle is following what letters were always supposed to do, stand for sounds. I'd be interested to see folks reactions when you speak them. I hear the "t" coming out in "often", though my grade school nuns said "no, no, no". Why can't those other silent letters come out as well. If "chord" were pronounced with a "ch" there would be no confusion between "cord" and ~chord. I wunder what the true Japanese pronunciation of tsunami is? Stress on nam? Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 -0500 > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Scot LaFaive > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pro= > nunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. > =20 > Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the= > "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. > =20 > Scot > =20 >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subjec= > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS= > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea= > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Si= > lver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -----------------= > -------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks lik= > e "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and = > hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic pri= > nciple. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not hav= > e the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated -= > 1851, see m-w.com>> Main Entry: tsu=C2=B7na=C2=B7mi> Pronunciation: \(t)s= > u=CC=87-=CB=88n=C3=A4-m=C4=93\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural t= > sunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Dat= > e: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement= > or volcanic eruption : tidal wave>> (Note that the dot over the u did not= > copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem= > . No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronu= > nciation.>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com -= > and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.>>> = >>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500>> From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.= > COM>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Secur= > ity)>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>>> ---------------------- Information= > from the mail header ----------------------->> Sender: American Dialect S= > ociety>> Poster: Scot LaFaive>> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boo= > mer" files for Social Security)>> ----------------------------------------= > --------------------------------------->>>> Something like that.>> =3D20= >>> Scot>> PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorful.>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2= > 007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=3D>> t: Re: "Silver= > Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=3D>> -L at LIST= > SERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=3D>> d= > er -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> P= > oster: Benjamin Barrett> Subject: Re: =3D>> "Silver Tsunami" (first "boom= > er" files for Social Security)> --------------=3D>> ----------------------= > ------------------------------------------->> Looks =3D>> like circular tr= > oll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=3D>> was - why t= > he term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=3D>> ne sa= > id "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=3D> = >> e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even thou= > gh=3D>> it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble= > driving=3D>> through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave"= > is dropped =3D>> and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, = > unless "tsunami" ac=3D>> tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>>= > ------------------------=3D>> ------------------------------------> The A= > merican Dialect Society - http:/=3D>> /www.americandialect.org>> ________= > _________________________________________________________>> Windows Live H= > otmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =3D96 together at last. =3DA0=3D>> Get= > it now.>> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?p= > id=3D3DCL10062=3D>> 6971033=3D>>>> -------------------------------------= > ----------------------->> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americ= > andialect.org>> __________________________________________________________= > _______> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf= > =C3=A9. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.= > html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline>> -------------------------------------= > -----------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.american= > dialect.org > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts!=A0 Play Star Shuffle:=A0 the word scramble = > challenge with star power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=3Dstarshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oc= > t= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Fri Oct 19 18:47:25 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:47:25 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <20071019073519.kkz2lipdcsccswks@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2007, at 07:35, Stephen Goranson wrote: > A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great > improvements and speed contributions to learning. Jesse and Jonathon have very ably responded already, but I think this point needs to be further responded to. I believe that "jazz" is a pet word for a handful of people. I believe most people--scholars and musicians included--could give two poots in a puddle about it. There are many pet words like that. "Emo" is a hotly contested words for a certain crowd. Should lexicographers prefer to work on entries for pet words over any other part of a dictionary? No, they shouldn't. There are limited budgets, limited personnel, and limited time. Even unpaid reading programs cost precious pounds. Flights of fancy to work on pet words may satisfy individuals, but not the larger goal of the project. To put Jesse's point a different way: Every task in dictionary-making is "simple," but there are oodles of simple tasks to each entry that make up the time-consuming editing process. Once you crack open an entry to make a quotation change, you are compelled to review the entire thing. Does the new quote change any editorial notes? Does it introduce new evidence that needs supporting or refuting? Do we refer to that quote in another entry? There's always more than a simple thing to fix. Looking at this from a different angle, I'd say that excessive attention to finding antedatings has distracted some very fine minds that might better spend their time finding words which are so far unrecorded in any dictionary. Antedatings are fun but rarely profitable nor informative beyond the date itself. (Though I do have that lexicographer's disease--one of many--that would like to see "jazz" made right just for the sake of accuracy.) Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of your colleagues. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 19 19:19:32 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:19:32 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You forget that the so-called "alphabetical principle" is simply 'pronounce the words the way) *I* say is best'. Alice-in-Wonderland lexicography, in short. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Scot LaFaive Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:52:52 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. Just for you I will pronounce the "t" in "tsunami," the "p" in "psalm," the "k" in "knot," the "g" in "gnat," and so on. Scot > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:38:03 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Looks like "tsunami" is here to stay. I agree with those who pronounces the "t" and hope we can retain it in pronunciation so the word obeys the alphabetic principle. From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> > Main Entry: tsu??na??mi> Pronunciation: \(t)su??-??n??-m??\> Function: noun> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> Etymology: Japan! ese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> Date: 1897> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> > (Note that the dot over the u did not copy in the phonetic copy/paste. Not good. Truespel never has that problem. No specail symbols.) Also note that the speaker did drop the "t" in pronunciation.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:06:06 -0500> > From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Scot LaFaive> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Somet! hing like that.> > =20> > Scot> > PS: I prefer "tsunami." More flavorf u l.> >> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:54 -0700> From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> Subjec=> > t: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS=> > -L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> ---------------------- Information from the mail hea=> > der -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society RV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: => > "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> --------------=> > ----------------------------------------------------------------->> Looks => > like circular troll country once again. BB>> Tom Zurinskas wrote:>> Point=> > was - why the term "tidal wave" appears to be dropped for "tsunami". Someo=> > ne said "tsunami" more accurately reflects the cause, which is an earthquak=> > e. My point was that we had a term we understood, like parkway, even though=> > it wasn't perfectly exact, like the way "parkway" doesn't resemble driving=> > through a park.>>>> So I guess the question why "tidal wave" is droppe! d => > and who is responsible for dropping it goes unanswered, unless "tsunami" ac=> > tually does relfect causation by an earthquake.>> ------------------------=> > ------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http:/=> > /www.americandialect.org> >_________________________________________________________________> > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =A0=> > Get it now.> > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062=> > 6971033=> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >_________________________________________________________________> Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf??. Stop by today.> http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Societ! y - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 20:17:35 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:17:35 -0400 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") Message-ID: OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under Britain's strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my website and also on Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L and clearly known to OED. No one at OED can know this?...Maybe Jessica Seinfeld (famous cookbook author) can take credit for my food work...Gotta do some work on "wet burritos" and "saddle-style" burritos. Any OED entry under "saddle"?...This unpaid, unloved work never ends. ... Maybe some old New Yorkers here remember "mello rolls" and can help with the below. There's surprisingly little on the web, and the term does not appear to be trademarked..."Up your hole with a mello roll" ("Up your nose with a rubber hose") is a shocking omission in the otherwise brilliant Yale Book of Quotations. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/mello_roll_or_mell_o_roll_up_your_hole_with_a_mello_roll/ ... Entry from October 19, 2007 Mello Roll or Mell-O-Roll ("Up your hole with a Mello Roll!") Mello rolls (also sometimes spelled "mello-rolls" or "mell-o-rolls," perhaps like "jell-o") were ice cream treats, somewhat like ice cream cones. They were popular in the Bronx and in Brooklyn; many people remember them served at Jones Beach in the 1940s and 1950s. The television show Welcome Back, Kotter (1975-1979) was based on comedian Gabriel Kaplan's life, as expressed in his comedy album Holes and Mello-Rolls. One joke line on the tv show?"Up your nose with a rubber hose!"?was originally recalled by Kaplan as ""Up your hole with a mello roll!" Back in the Bronx: Celebrating the Experience of Growing Up and Living in the Bronx (http://www.backinthebronx.com) Volume III, Issue IX, pg. 10: Proverbs & Sayings (...) 14. Charlotte Russe...Sponge cake in a cylindrical body of cardboard with a lot of whipped cream and as you eat it, you push it up from the bottom. 15. Mello Roll...Ice cream wrapped in a cylindrical shape that you peeled off the wrapper and pushed in a special mello roll cone. Newsday New Yorkers share Jones Beach memories (...) "I have been going to Jones Beach since 1955. I remember Field 9 and when I hike around out there now, I find pieces of the old parking lot coming up through the sand. They sold Mell-Rolls at the concession there?a concession shaped like the pilot house of a ship. Mello-Rolls were a cylindrical chunt of vanilla ice cream wrapped in paper which would be unrolled and placed into a wafer cone." ?Bill Picchioni Rockville Centre Boomer Baby Memories; Food Mello roll and Charlotte Russe Growing up in Brooklyn there was a candy store on practically every corner and a bakery a few blocks away. Two of my favorites were Mello Rolls and Charlotte Russes. The challenge was to get the Mello Roll onto the cone without it falling on the floor. It took a lot of practice but it was worth the effort! --- Jeannie M. South Florida (formerly Brooklyn) - 1946 6 December 1970, New York (NY) Times, pg. 229 ad: Complete Mello-Roll Machine and Hardener 11 January 1976, New York (NY) Times, "Comedy Disks From Carlin to Kaplan to Klein" by Shaun Considine, pg. D17: A blurb on the cover of Gabriel Kaplan's "Holes and Mello-Rolls" claims that his hit TV show, "Welcome Back, Kotter," was inspired by this album. Internet Movie Database Memorable quotes for My Favorite Year (1982) Sy: We're talkin' future generations here. We're discussing morals. Alice Miller: [for Herb] You're not qualified to discuss morals, Sy. Sy: Up your hole with a Mello Roll, Alice! You too, Herb! Google Books Loving Women: a novel of the fifties by Pete Hamill New York, NY: Random House 1989 Pg. 192: "Up your hole with a Mell-o-roll, coppers, you ain't takin' me alive!" 12 February 1989, New York Times, "On Language" by William Safire, pg. SM10: "All my age cohorts [sic?should be "all members of my age cohort"] fondly recall the fat cylinders of ice cream called Mello-Rolls," writes Ruth B. Roufberg of Kendall Park, N.J. "They were wrapped in two overlapping strips of paper, which, when pulled from opposite directions, exposed the cylinder and neatly deposited it into the ice-cream cone." Funny how so many people miss Mello-Rolls. "When you licked the ice cream," explains Patricia Maloney Bernstein of Great Neck, L.I., "the roll shape caused it to turn round in its cone, so as the ice cream melted it did not run down the outside of the cone, but rather melted within the cone, running down into the hollow in the handle." 31 December 1989, New York Times, "Looking Back at a Disappointing Decade" by Marcia Byalick, pg. LI14: For me the last decade had no memories as sweet as charlotte russes or mello rolls. 18 October 1992, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 7, pg. 6, col. 2: "And Mello Rolls in a cup with sprinkles. Mello Rolls were sort of ice cream cones, but they weren't scoops, they were more oval-shaped." (Review of the book When You're From Brooklyn, Everything Else is Tokyo by Larry King with Marty Appel?ed.) Daily (University of Washington Student Newspaper) January 25, 1996 Welcome Back, Kaplan Another show, another time Hans Ruegamer Daily Staff (...) Part of the show's living legacy is the number of catch phrases it developed. Ranging from Lawrence Jacobs' deep-voiced "Hi, there" to Ron Palillo's high-pitched "Oooo!" "Most of the stuff came from my high school," Kaplan said. "The real phrase was 'Up your hole with a Mello roll.' A Mello roll was a like an ice cream they sold in New York and that was a standard catch phrase on the street. If you insulted anybody, you said something like that or something about their parents. And that became part of the beginnings of the show and then we got away from that." "We had to change it of course for television - to 'Up your nose with a rubber hose.' And then one show the censor got upset about us saying that and he said, 'You have to say, "Up your nose with a garden hose."' "I said, 'Why,' just out of curiosity, and he said, "Well, you can do a lot of damage to someone with a rubber hose.' They had these weird censorship things. And after the next week they said we could say rubber hose again. But there's one show where we say 'Up your nose with a garden hose.'" BronxRoots-L From: Mike < kombucha at ticnet.com> Subject: Re: Mello-Roll Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:05:19 -0600 References: <20010328203751.24626.qmail at web1301.mail.yahoo.com> Marc et-yoozal, The mello-roll cone was of the "waffle" variety, and not of the "sugar-cone" variety which was crunchy. The stem of the cone had a flat bottom instead of a point. On the top it had a rectangular opening about 2.5 inches by about 1.25 inches which nested the mellow-roll. The ice cream was a cylinder a bit larger than a flashlight battery, and it had a paper wrapper with a tab that ran along it lenghtwise. There was an art to placing the roll in the cone, and then pulling the paper off as the roll rotated. I remember vanilla, but am not sure if it cam in other flavors. It was a favorite cuss to say? "Up your nose with a garden hose, and up your hole with a mello-roll!" Food of the Eighties Shayne Genoway - May 04, 2007 I was trying to find information about Mello-Roll ice cream with not too much luck. Try explaining the concept to your grandchildren and it becomes a task in futility, and much laughter on their part. They can't grasp the concept of ice cream that came wrapped in something that looked like the center cardboard roll on our toilet paper, with ice cream stuffed inside. That was the only way I could think of explaining it to them. You then had to unravel the cone around the ice cream which sat inside a cone that was also round so the ice cream sat neatly into the cone. Weird, isn't it, just trying to describe it. I remember them well because my dad had a variety store at the time, and I remember him serving them to the kids coming into the store. He would pull a part of the paper off, and fit the exposed part of the ice cream into the cone. When he figured it was in tight enough, he unrolled the rest of the paper off and handed the cone to the customer. The Mello-Roll ice cream could be handled with his hands at all times because it was protected by this paper. It was about the size of the inside cardboard roll of toilet paper, and that's exactly what it looked like standing on end inside the cone. For it's time it was convenient for the store keeper, he didn't need to worry about a scoop, just reach in pull one out, and unwrap it. Simple, easy, and efficient when I think about it now. It'd sure be nice if someone came up with a picture of one from somewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 19 20:36:33 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:36:33 -0700 Subject: Balderdash & Piffle (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The folks at BBC/Balderdash & Piffle asked for help antedating certain words, which information would then be used to update the OED references. In fact, I think I first heard of it from something Fred Shapiro posted here. Easily amused by the sorting and surfing, I checked a few out and sent a few antedate bits in and made the list. If you didn't send one in =to the Balderdash & Piffle folks=, you wouldn't be on the acknowledgments page. Simple. That said, if you look at the backdating the OED online's showing for Bloody Mary [ref:], your references backdate theirs. Maybe you should let the OED know. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious On 10/19/07, Barry A. Popik wrote: > I don't quite understand "Balderdash & Piffle." For example, 11 people were > credited for Bloody Mary," but the first citation was found me (uncredited) > me? It took me a great many hours to find that, too. I don't get a dime. > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Oct 19 23:27:05 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:27:05 -0500 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710192017.l9JAlV2B032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under > Britain's strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my > website and also on Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L > and clearly known to OED. No one at OED can know > this?... In what possible way have you been libelled? They haven't said anything bad about you. Takeaway Media produced a show, "Balderdash & Piffle," about antedating words. They asked for help with a project they called "Wordhunt". You didn't give them any. They didn't list you as helping when they put together the Wordhunt Hall of Fame. To paraphrase Sgt. Hulka from that great movie, "Stripes", "Lighten up, Barry!" Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 00:35:17 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:35:17 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710191646.l9JAlVjH032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A good point. So why should Americans be subject to the replacement of a word they already know, such as "tidal wave" by a word they have trouble pronouncing, tsunami, or looking up because it starts with a silent letter, or connot fathom the relevance of because of the invisible morphology that makes it relevant. At least the word "tidal wave" is something that is spellable, lookupable, and intuitive as to meaning based on English morphology. So as an American in the American Dialect Society, I believe the word "tidal wave" should be retained because, according to m-w.com, it antedates the word tsunami, is more intuitive as to meaning, and is more pronouncable and spellable. To me there is no more redeamable quality to tsunami than changing hurricane to typhoon. Is that next? So my vote is tidal wave over tsunami. I find no sense in changing. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700 > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an > earthquake or volcanic eruption. > > The morpheme tsu (???) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (???) > means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English, > which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave. > > * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I > don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami. > > Benjamin Barrett > a cyberbreath for language life > livinglanguages.wordpress.com > > Tom Zurinskas wrote: >> From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com >> >> Main Entry: tsu????na????mi >> Pronunciation: \(t)su?????-????n????-m?????\ >> Function: noun >> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami >> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave >> Date: 1897 >> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:38:38 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:38:38 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710200035.l9JNoIF9032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Geez. How about we give it a rest. People use what they want. If you want to use "tidal wave," then use it, but I for one will use "tsunami" because I prefer it. More flavorful. ADS isn't going to make some grand decision that will enforce language rules among all American speakers, so please give the platforming a break. Scot > Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:35:17 +0000> From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > A good point. So why should Americans be subject to the replacement of a word they already know, such as "tidal wave"> by a word they have trouble pronouncing, tsunami, or looking up because it starts with a silent letter, or connot fathom> the relevance of because of the invisible morphology that makes it relevant. At least the word "tidal wave" is something> that is spellable, lookupable, and intuitive as to meaning based on English morphology.> > So as an American in the American Dialect Society, I believe the word "tidal wave" should be retained because,> according to m-w.com, it antedates the word tsunami, is more intuitive as to meaning, and is more pronouncable> and spellable. To me there is no more redeamable quality to tsunami than changing hurricane to typhoon.> Is that next? So my vote is tidal wave over tsunami. I find no sense in changing.> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:46:45 -0700> > From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society> > Poster: Benjamin Barrett> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security)> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Tsunami does not mean "harbor wave" in English, but a wave caused by an> > earthquake or volcanic eruption.> >> > The morpheme tsu (???) certainly does mean harbor or port* and nami (???)> > means wave in Japanese, but that morphology is invisible in English,> > which is why it's a nice substitute for tidal wave.> >> > * I wonder if tsu is recognizable even to native Japanese speakers. I> > don't think I've ever heard it outside of place names and the word tsunami.> >> > Benjamin Barrett> > a cyberbreath for language life> > livinglanguages.wordpress.com> >> > Tom Zurinskas wrote:> >> From m-w.com, tsunami means "harbor wave", which to me does not have the impact of a "tidal wave". Tidal wave has an earlier date associated - 1851, see m-w.com> >>> >> Main Entry: tsu????na????mi> >> Pronunciation: \(t)su?????-????n????-m?????\> >> Function: noun> >> Inflected Form(s): plural tsunamis also tsunami> >> Etymology: Japanese, from tsu harbor + nami wave> >> Date: 1897> >> : a great sea wave produced especially by submarine earth movement or volcanic eruption : tidal wave> >>> >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> > _________________________________________________________________> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:38:58 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:38:58 EDT Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0_=A0_=A0?= Re: [ADS-L] Gism (1 901): a second thought Message-ID: Surely jism is both Irish and Yiddish. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 01:46:37 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:46:37 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: HISPANIC OR MEXICAN ... The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 20 02:07:13 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:07:13 -0500 Subject: "Bloody Mary"; was: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: The reference is: Barry Popik: "Origin of the Bloody Mary Drink in a Parisian Watering Hole for Americans, 1919 or 1921," _Comments on Etymology_, vol. 29, no. 8, May 2000 (sic; not 2001), pp. 24-27. As usual, fine work, Barry. Gerald Cohen Original message from: Barry Popik, Fri 10/19/2007 8:46 PM ... My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 02:41:49 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:41:49 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Jesse, While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the 1912 quote would require. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 11:48 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Second, much of this work is _extremely_ time consuming. It may look obvious that if there's a bogus quotation or a prominent antedating, you can just take it out or slip it in, but it usually doesn't work like that--there are a lot of things to consider, entries might have to be rewritten, etymologists consulted, consultants consulted, etc. Revising the entry for _jazz_ will be a major effort--one which we will likely undertake, but not one that can be approximated by pulling the 1909 quote and sneaking in the 1912. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 02:38:01 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:38:01 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle Message-ID: In fairness to the OED, Jesse did post the following here on 1/4/2007, at http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0701A&L=ADS-L&P=R16218&I=-3: By the way, anyone with antedatings of the dates _published on the Balderdash & Piffle site_--i.e., including Barry for _Bloody Mary_, John/Fred for _shaggy dog story_, etc., please _send it in to the site_. You'll get listed there, as Fred was last time, if you do so. If you just send it to me or directly to OED, you likely won't. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Barry Popik Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 03:11:09 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:11:09 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: <200710200146.l9K104XF027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Hispanic or Mexican" makes as much sense as "African-American or Black." -Wilson On 10/19/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > HISPANIC OR MEXICAN > ... > The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some > detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why > it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) > ... > I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually > very careful about them. > ... > The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't > know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of > the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years > ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" > date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got > credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. > ... > OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit > here, but it didn't. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Oct 20 03:11:44 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:11:44 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:41:49PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > Jesse, > > While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as > well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why > the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That > one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that > could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the > 1912 quote would require. I disagree. First of all, the quote exists in OED2, and is widely (if incorrectly) referred to in other sources. So if we take it out, we'd have to add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated," etc., so that people looking in OED and not finding this quote would know why it's not there. Then we're left with the 1913 quote as the first use. But wait! That quote, despite appearances, doesn't refer to music. Do we leave it in (because we're not revising, we're just pulling the bogus 1909 quote), or do we take it out (because it's also bogus, if in a different way)? If we take it out, then the first quote for _jazz_ is 1917 (and that quote retails an invented etymology, but that's beside the point). Then we have a sense 1 that's from 1917, but a sense 2 from 1913, so these are out of order. Do we leave them in a wrong order? Or do we switch them around, perhaps messing up other cross-references, either within the OED or in other sources? We do have earlier evidence than 1917 now, but do we put it in? No, we're not revising. And so forth. I'm sure there are circumstances where a bogus first quote could be removed more easily, but this is certainly not one of them. Pulling this would require significant editorial consideration even if we were trying to keep it simple. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 04:16:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:16:30 -0400 Subject: Gism (1901): a second thought In-Reply-To: <200710190319.l9IMKcAw005727@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I was in grade school, ca.1943, a classmate once used "[gIzm]pipe" for "windpipe." He was ridiculed to the extent that he didn't use it again. Back in the day, "gism" [dZIzm] in any meaning was unknown. I eventually learned of its existence, in the "semen" meaning, by reading exotic literature, ca.1960. It remains a literary term for me. -Wilson On 10/18/07, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: Gism (1901): a second thought > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >---------- > > > >E. D. Gillespie, _A Book of Remembrances_ (Lippincott, Philadelphia, > >1901): p. 33: > > > >< >story to my grandmother she instantly wrote these verses: / ... / > >"Now, mother, when we wish to soar / And cut a dash at 'Bellespore,' > >/ You will repeat some vulgarism, / What we call nectar you call gism.">> > > > >---------- > > > >This verse, ostensibly quoted from E. D. Gillespie's mother, would > >have been written around 1800, I think. The context: a bookish girl > >had claimed that her sister had gone out to read poetry ("Night > >Thoughts"), but their unpretentious mother had spoiled the illusion > >by saying that the girl had gone out to get "a mess of poke". > > > >I don't know what "Bellespore" means ("Belle Espoir"?). > > > >What does "gism" mean here? > > What pronunciation is expressed by "gism" here? Is this isolated > ca.-1800 word /gIzm/ or /dZIzm/? > > If it's /dZIzm/ (like "jism") it's surely reasonable to _try_ to > relate it to the "jism" later used for "spirit"/"vigor" or so and for "semen". > > But what if it's /gIzm/? > > Then one might attempt an association with dialectal > "gizzen"/"gizzern"/"gizzem"/etc. = "gizzard"/"throat", right? SND > shows "gizzern" with variants. DARE shows "gizzle" = "goozle" = > "goozlem" = "guzzle" = "throat". Also "goozlum" = "viscous food such > as a sauce, gravy, or pudding ...". > > IF there was a word (ca. 1800) pronounced /gIzm/ meaning "gravy" or > so, it would explain the "gism" in the above quotation. But how (if > at all) would one relate it to the later "gism"/"jism"? Is a /g/ > > /dZ/ mutation explainable/believable? > > Also note "gizzard" (in HDAS, etc.) with sense similar to "jism"/"jasm". > > Any thoughts? > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.0/1077 - Release Date: 10/18/2007 9:54 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 05:03:51 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:03:51 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <200710190313.l9IJ8l11000646@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you simply rising to the challenge? FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! -Wilson On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, > >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! > > > >-Wilson > > The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's > (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' > chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, > although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is > that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried > okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) > > LH > > > > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >>----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? > >>East Texas?) > >> > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and > >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from > >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a > >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to > >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased > >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. > >> > > >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the > >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig > >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may > >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. > >> >Who knows? > >> > > >> >-Wilson > >> > >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and > >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, > >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. > >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took > >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. > >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure > >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be > >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into > >> a dry okratini every night...) > >> > >> LH > >> > >> > > >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: > >> >> ---------------------- Information from the > >> >>mail header ----------------------- > >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> >> Poster: Barry Popik > >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? > >>East Texas?) > >> >> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> Anyone remember this? > >> >> ... > >> >> ... > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> >>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ > >> >> ... > >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 > >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my > >>socks up!" > >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people survived on > >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I > >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer the less slimy > >> >> fried okra instead. > >> >> > >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic Monthly hints > >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping your socks > >> >> up. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Food Tale: Okra > >> >> Okra > >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) > >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is > > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by the Egyptians > >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the central lands > >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and ultimately to the > >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. > >> >> > >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave > > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no time at all it > >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps > >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. > >> >> > >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in > >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to > >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a > >> >> coffee substitute. > >> >> > >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the > >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. > >> >> > >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: > >> >> (...) > >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high > >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. > >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, > >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. > >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer > >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. > >> > > Okra! > >> >> > >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook > >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes > >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is > >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried okra, of course, > >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern climes, but > >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, > >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed alone or with > >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have > >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this recipe to be > >> >> at its best. > >> >> (...) > >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as "silky," a > >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, especially > >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. But I refuse > >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey > >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes like this: When > >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > >> >> > >> >> Google Books > >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: > >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so > >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. > >> >> > >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: > >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled > >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi McCulloch found the > >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the > >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank > >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: > >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A > >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression was: "I ate > >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and > >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: > >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes out slimy for > >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying > >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I nearly slid > >> >> out of bed." > >> >> > >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" by Frank X. > >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" > >> >> > >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems > >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: > >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy > > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the august Atlantic > >> >> Monthly. > >> >> > >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers wrote. "But in > >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the Atlantic Monthly > >> >> is a dilly." > >> >> > >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind if I print > >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": > > > >> > >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid by...He keeps > >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up > >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra > >> >> Homer.)" > >> >> > >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from > >> >> slipping out." > >> >> > >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss > >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss > >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () > >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT > >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm > >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: Glory Holes)) > >> >> > >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled > >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How > >> >> appetizing! > >> >> > >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... > >> >> Newsgroups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove > >> >> From: "Nancy" > >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 > >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? > >> >> > >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to have eaten so > >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? > >> >> > >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): > >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my > >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to > >> >> keep us from sliding out." > >> >> > >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal > >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. > >> >> (...) > >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear > >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every > >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > >> >> slimey! > >> >> > >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: > >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed > >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." > >> >> > >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) > >> >> October 03, 2006 > >> >> It's better if you fry it > >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been familiar with it a > >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a finicky eater. > >> >> > >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked > >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the fantods. Do > >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. > >> >> (...) > >> >> Comments > >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate so much as a > >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." > >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM > >> >> > >> >> Food Network Forums > >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice > >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 > >> >> > >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the > >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I > >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have had is just > >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> >----- > >> > -Sam'l Clemens > >> > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > >-- > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >----- > > -Sam'l Clemens > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 05:09:08 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:09:08 -0400 Subject: My wife's NE PA opinion: Message-ID: "All cars look the same, anymore." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 20 05:24:36 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:24:36 -0400 Subject: you're not the boss of me (1883) Message-ID: A few years ago I posted a 1953 cite for "you're not the boss of me": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0502d&L=ads-l&P=29568 But now Google Book Search beats that by 70 years. Details here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005037.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 06:36:50 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 02:36:50 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) Message-ID: I was browsing though a long Chowhound posting of "regional food quirks." There was a recent post by "RaiderCake" (Texas Tech Red Raiders in Lubbock) that said that in his college town, ranch dressing is called "sorority sauce." There don't seem to be many hits; maybe someone can check FACTIVA. ... It looks like a regional usage, possibly of interest to DARE for its next volume or to HDAS...Ranch dressing with chips?...Ranch dressing on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/sorority_sauce_ranch_dressing/ ... Entry from October 20, 2007 Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) "Sorority sauce" has been a slang nickname for "ketchup" since at least World War II. Since about 2006, ranch dressing has been called "sorority sauce" at Texas Tech University in Lubbock. The reasons for this are unknown, but many Texans have long loved ranch dressing. Wikipedia: Ranch dressing Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue cheese. 7 March 1942, Army Times, pg. 12, col. 1: G. I. Slang in P. I.: A Slightly Censored Glossary of Terms Used by MacArthur's Boys to Express Themselves Between Raids on Bataan (...) "Sorority sauce"?catsup. 23 September 1996, Syracuse (NY) Post-Standard, pg. 13?, col. 5: Winchester Sauce (also known as Sorority Sauce) Daily Toreador (Texas Tech) Cheers and jeers finish out year Abbie Kopf/Columnist Issue date: 5/1/06 Section: Opinion Most people I have met at Texas Tech develop a love-hate relationship with the city of Lubbock. Many students have some of the best times of their lives here, granted they still hate the city because there is nothing to do (though let's not forget the National Ranching Heritage Center). Though I use my columns to complain about the ills of society, I myself both love and hate Lubbock and Tech, and would like to offer some cheers and jeers as I leave to start a new phase in my life. Cheers to: Sorority girls. While it's true that as a waitress I tire of getting your kids meals and chips with ranch (we call it sorority sauce), I have to say that I believe that you ladies are getting a bad rap. Chowhound - Regional "Food Quirks" In the college town in Texas where I live, tortilla chips and salsa are served at practically every restaurant - but some people (namely, the college set) like to eat tortilla chips with ranch dressing, hence the nickname "sorority sauce" for ranch. And we have ranch on pizza here, too. RaiderCake Oct 14, 2007 07:15PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 20 14:04:52 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:04:52 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <200710200636.l9K104k1027436@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've long been (mildly) curious about the origins of the name _ranch dressing_. To my mind, a _ranch_ is a type of 'farm' for raising animals. The 'dressing' one usually finds in ranch fields is _not_ something I'd want on _my_ salad! Did RD originate as a clever marketer's idea, a joke, an abuse of poetic license, or all of the above? (the other) doug Definition of an anorexic's thin legs: Ill-gotten gams. =========================================================== Wikipedia: Ranch dressing Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue cheese. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 14:51:18 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:51:18 +0000 Subject: gator bag Message-ID: This came in a message on a neighborhood list serve--from a Durham NC city counsel member. It seems to refer to the practice of attaching canvas bags to the base of young trees. The bags are filled with water that then drips slowly onto the roots. Is this new? Where does it come from? THE QUOTE: "I believe we are making progress on the tree issue. I just spoke with Alex Johnson, City Arborist and Dorthea Pierce of Keep Durham Beautiful. They recommend the low flow gator bag process to water the two damaged trees and hopefully they will be installed soon." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM Sat Oct 20 16:15:28 2007 From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:15:28 -0400 Subject: Picky reader Message-ID: >From yesterday's *New York Times*: "Jessica Seinfeld, the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife, has a hot best seller with 'Deceptively Delicious,' a cookbook for parents of picky eaters." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/nyregion/19seinfeld.html "[T]he comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" instead of "wife of comedian Jerry Seinfeld"? Really? The former leaves a bad taste in my ears. What am I not getting? -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Oct 20 16:38:07 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:38:07 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating In-Reply-To: <6A12A664-E7FC-4668-85F2-D39492CE70EF@worldnewyork.org> Message-ID: Grant Barrett advises Stephen Goranson: Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of your colleagues. I've been working on an article for one of the annual SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) on the origin of "jazz" in baseball. My hope is, that this article will alert these harmless crackpots that if they are reading early 20th C newspapers looking for news of their favorite teams and come upon the word "jazz", they have found something notable. I'm hoping that 1913 won't prove the earliest occurrence. For my part, as I read early 19th C newspapers, whenever I find the editor showing off a new word, giving his readers a nudge so that they will notice how up to date he is, putting a word or phrase in quotes, or italics, or introducing it with "as the boys say" or "to use a western expression" or the like, I make a note of it. This has produces some absolute antedatings, some antedatings for the U. S. (which the OED seems unconcerned with) and a few entirely new words. A problem with the fascination with antedatings is that occurrences that aren't antedatings are seen as valueless. But they may illustrate the word's meaning better than the original instance, or show a new nuance -- as the difference between "jazz" as "energy, spirit" and "jazz" as "nonsense, foolishness". The stuff I fuind that aren't antedatings I don't send here, usually, but I do send to Jonathan & Jonathon. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ----- Original Message ----- From: Grant Barrett Date: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:51 pm Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > On Oct 19, 2007, at 07:35, Stephen Goranson wrote: > > A relatively simple change in editing practice could yield great > > improvements and speed contributions to learning. > > Jesse and Jonathon have very ably responded already, but I think this > point needs to be further responded to. > > I believe that "jazz" is a pet word for a handful of people. I > believe most people--scholars and musicians included--could give two > poots in a puddle about it. There are many pet words like that. "Emo" > is a hotly contested words for a certain crowd. > > Should lexicographers prefer to work on entries for pet words over > any other part of a dictionary? No, they shouldn't. There are limited > budgets, limited personnel, and limited time. Even unpaid reading > programs cost precious pounds. Flights of fancy to work on pet words > may satisfy individuals, but not the larger goal of the project. > > To put Jesse's point a different way: Every task in dictionary-making > is "simple," but there are oodles of simple tasks to each entry that > make up the time-consuming editing process. Once you crack open an > entry to make a quotation change, you are compelled to review the > entire thing. Does the new quote change any editorial notes? Does it > introduce new evidence that needs supporting or refuting? Do we refer > to that quote in another entry? There's always more than a simple > thing to fix. > > Looking at this from a different angle, I'd say that excessive > attention to finding antedatings has distracted some very fine minds > that might better spend their time finding words which are so far > unrecorded in any dictionary. Antedatings are fun but rarely > profitable nor informative beyond the date itself. (Though I do have > that lexicographer's disease--one of many--that would like to see > "jazz" made right just for the sake of accuracy.) > > Finally, Stephen, I think you are petitioning the wrong organization. > Instead, I'd be drafting your email as an article proposal and then > sending it as a query to various popular periodicals. Trumpet the > true story of jazz! That is the opening that OED's long update times > has left for you and other scholars. Get out there with factual, > interesting articles and widely report your antedatings and those of > your colleagues. > > Grant Barrett > Double-Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/ > editor at doubletongued.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:11:27 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:11:27 -0700 Subject: gator bag In-Reply-To: <1599474511-1192891902-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2054641777-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Short for "irrigator bag" I don't know who had the first product or developed the technology, but TreeGator, a brand name, might've put the name into common use. On 10/20/07, ronbutters at aol.com wrote: > This came in a message on a neighborhood list serve--from a Durham NC city counsel member. It seems to refer to the practice of attaching canvas bags to the base of young trees. The bags are filled with water that then drips slowly onto the roots. > > Is this new? Where does it come from? > > THE QUOTE: > > "I believe we are making progress on the tree issue. I just spoke with Alex Johnson, City Arborist and Dorthea Pierce of Keep Durham Beautiful. They recommend the low flow gator bag process to water the two damaged trees and hopefully they will be installed soon." > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:15:22 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:15:22 -0700 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <04f201c81322$2fc8be40$04fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: All you ever wanted to know about the origins of ranch dressing: On 10/20/07, Doug Harris wrote: > I've long been (mildly) curious about the origins of the > name _ranch dressing_. To my mind, a _ranch_ is a type of > 'farm' for raising animals. The 'dressing' one usually finds > in ranch fields is _not_ something I'd want on _my_ salad! > Did RD originate as a clever marketer's idea, a joke, an > abuse of poetic license, or all of the above? > > (the other) doug > > Definition of an anorexic's thin legs: Ill-gotten gams. > =========================================================== > > Wikipedia: Ranch dressing > Ranch dressing is an American condiment. The dressing is made of > buttermilk or sour cream, mayonnaise, minced green onion, and other > seasonings mixed into a sauce. Ranch dressing is one of the top two > styles of salad dressing in the United States, together with blue > cheese. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sat Oct 20 17:34:58 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:34:58 -0500 Subject: "Jazz" reference --- was: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera,... Message-ID: Re: "jazz" (discussed in several recent ads-l messages), please don't overlook the following item: Gerald Cohen: "_Jazz_" Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #3." in: Comments on Etymology, vol. 35, no. 1-2, October-November 2005, 140 pp. ----- Btw, due credit is given throughout. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of George Thompson Sent: Sat 10/20/2007 11:38 AM I've been working on an article for one of the annual SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) on the origin of "jazz" in baseball. My hope is, that this article will alert these harmless crackpots that if they are reading early 20th C newspapers looking for news of their favorite teams and come upon the word "jazz", they have found something notable. I'm hoping that 1913 won't prove the earliest occurrence. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 20 17:41:08 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:41:08 +0000 Subject: Picky reader Message-ID: Sounds fine to me either way, except purists would require "wife of THE comedian Jerry Seinfeld"! What is wrong with "the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife"? Your tongue is in your ear??? ------Original Message------ From: Bonnie Taylor-Blake Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 20, 2007 12:15 PM Subject: [ADS-L] Picky reader >From yesterday's *New York Times*: "Jessica Seinfeld, the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife, has a hot best seller with 'Deceptively Delicious,' a cookbook for parents of picky eaters." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/nyregion/19seinfeld.html "[T]he comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" instead of "wife of comedian Jerry Seinfeld"? Really? The former leaves a bad taste in my ears. What am I not getting? -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 20 18:10:16 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:10:16 -0400 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apparently the Wordhunt people only gave credit to discoverers who directly contributed the information to them. This may indeed be the sensible way for them to proceed. Note, however, the following e-mail that I had sent them: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 21:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Fred Shapiro To: balderdash at bbc.co.uk Subject: Antedating of "Bloody Mary" Barry Popik discovered much earlier evidence five years ago: > From "This New York" by Lucius Beebe, NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 2 December 1939, pg. 9, col. 2: George Jessel's newest pick-me-up which is receiving attention from the town's paragraphers is called a Bloody Mary: half tomato juice, half vodka. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Popik [bapopik at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle HISPANIC OR MEXICAN ... The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BALDERDASH & PIFFLE (continued) ... I meant Britain's strict libel & copyright laws. The BBC is usually very careful about them. ... The whole thing is ridiculous. I've never seen the show so I don't know how things were presented, but B&P was produced with the help of the OED. My "Bloody Mary" finding was published in 2001--six years ago. OED should have had it in its files. The old 1950s "Bloody Mary" date shouldn't even have made the OED appeals list. Eleven people got credit for "discovering" my work that was already known to OED. ... OED could help give a volunteer researcher just a little bit of credit here, but it didn't. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Sat Oct 20 19:18:03 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:18:03 -0400 Subject: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating Message-ID: Yes, I do indeed think that you should add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated." The quote that's there now is incorrect information. I believe it is incumbent upon OUP to make the necessary correction. In this regard, it would probably be most helpful not to delete the incorrect quote at the present time, but simply to add the necessary note that it is erroneously dated. I do not believe that any correction means that you must immediately re-edit the entire entry, or even rethink editorial decisions that now may seem questionable. It is inevitable that any reference work intended to be used over an extended period of time will eventually contain some outdated information that does not reflect the most current findings. But the problems that you cite with making a correction are problems that exist in any case, because people who pay attention to other sources already know that the 1909 cite is in error. John Baker ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jesse Sheidlower Sent: Fri 10/19/2007 11:11 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: OED editing, antedating peril ephemera, was Re: [ADS-L] The competitive sport of antedating On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:41:49PM -0400, Baker, John wrote: > Jesse, > > While I'm in complete agreement with your other comments (as > well as those of Grant and Jonathon), I don't understand why > the OED can't go ahead and pull the bogus 1909 quote. That > one causes a lot of confusion, and it seems to me that that > could be done without the major effort that, say, adding the > 1912 quote would require. I disagree. First of all, the quote exists in OED2, and is widely (if incorrectly) referred to in other sources. So if we take it out, we'd have to add a note saying "A quotation dated 1909 in OED2 was in fact misdated," etc., so that people looking in OED and not finding this quote would know why it's not there. Then we're left with the 1913 quote as the first use. But wait! That quote, despite appearances, doesn't refer to music. Do we leave it in (because we're not revising, we're just pulling the bogus 1909 quote), or do we take it out (because it's also bogus, if in a different way)? If we take it out, then the first quote for _jazz_ is 1917 (and that quote retails an invented etymology, but that's beside the point). Then we have a sense 1 that's from 1917, but a sense 2 from 1913, so these are out of order. Do we leave them in a wrong order? Or do we switch them around, perhaps messing up other cross-references, either within the OED or in other sources? We do have earlier evidence than 1917 now, but do we put it in? No, we're not revising. And so forth. I'm sure there are circumstances where a bogus first quote could be removed more easily, but this is certainly not one of them. Pulling this would require significant editorial consideration even if we were trying to keep it simple. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 20 19:30:54 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:30:54 -0700 Subject: "Hispanic or Mexican"; Balderdash & Piffle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/19/07, Barry Popik wrote: > HISPANIC OR MEXICAN > ... > The wife and I visited a medical office recently and filled out some > detailed forms. One asked "Hispanic or Mexican." My wife wondered why > it wasn't just "Hispanic," but I guess this is Texas. You can be Hispanic without being Mexican. You can also be Mexican without being Hispanic, as any Mexican with native Mexican blood will tell you. Things can get pretty dicey with some folks claiming their upscale Hispanic-French-German background (no peasant native Mexicans in the family tree, thankyouverymuch) while others are proud of their pure native Mexican ancestry and resent the Hispanic sneers and the folks who want to label them as Hispanic when, thankyouverymuch, they are not and don't want to be. The medical office had probably run into both types. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Oct 20 20:32:35 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:32:35 -0700 Subject: "Yoot" resurfaces Message-ID: Wentworth & Flexner's _DAS_ from 1960 includes a citation of _yoot_ from the _N.Y. World-Telegram and Sun_ of Aug. 16, 1957 (no page number given): "Cop Shot: 3 Yoots* Held...(*Yoot: a young punk; a juvenile no-goodnik)." This p.m. Fox News alluded to "yoots," explaining that it meant "angry youths." By way of further explanation, "Yoots hate the Establishment." A protest demonstration at the meeting of the World Bank and International Money Fund was the context. A Fox reporter was surrounded by "yoots" who stole his camera. The film, _My Cousin Vinny_ (1992) was cited as the inspiration. Cinephiles will recall the word's appearance there. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Sat Oct 20 23:42:47 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:42:47 -0400 Subject: Okratini? In-Reply-To: <200710190402.l9IMwdcF000836@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Has Barry looked into this alleged okratini? I am another Northerner in the pro-okra contingent. ---Amy West >Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 >From: Laurence Horn >Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) > >At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >>God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >>abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >>of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >>DAD > >OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. > >LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 02:41:19 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:41:19 -0400 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <200710200636.l9JIH0Mb027421@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ..Ranch dressing > on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? I thought ranch on pizza was a California thing. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 03:59:39 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:59:39 -0400 Subject: Okratini? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:42 PM -0400 10/20/07, Amy West wrote: >Has Barry looked into this alleged okratini? I thought I'd invented the word (not to mention the concept), but it turns out not so, as I learned from (who else?) Barry. From the archives: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:04:46 -0400 To: American Dialect Society From: Laurence Horn Subject: Re: Okratini (1971) At 1:43 PM -0400 8/21/03, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >OKRATINI > > Larry once posted about this drink. > I went through about 75 hits for "cocktail" and "inventor" or "invented." >There were no big surprises, but I did come up with the "Okratini" and the >"Cocktail Suit." > > > 18 March 1971, COSHOCTON TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg.7B, col. 5: > In New York, a Tex-Mex restaurant has invented a cocktail called the >"okratini." Essentially it's a martini, but is served with a pickled okra pod >instead of an olive. > I can't believe it. Scooped by the Coshocton Trib! Well, it's good to know, before I applied for a patent. Thanks, Barry. --Larry, who was drinking okratinis in the 60's in L.A. but never got written up in Coshocton. P.S. I wonder what they mean by "essentially". Of course, an *echt* okratini requires not just any old pickled okra pod, but one from a jar of Talk O' Texas HOT Crisp OKRA PICKLES (look for the cowboy and lasso on the label). > >I am another Northerner in the pro-okra contingent. > >---Amy West > >>Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:49 -0400 >>From: Laurence Horn >>Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >> >>At 10:10 PM -0300 10/18/07, David A. Daniel wrote: >>>God regards okra with abomination. Okra, as also he who eats okra, is >>>abominated by God. Slime, disgust, revulsion and putrefaction are all states >>>of being associated with the existence, presence, ingestion of okra. >>>DAD >> >>OK, no okratinis for you. Even if you beg. >> >>LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 21 04:14:13 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:14:13 -0400 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710192203j6b47be47iae1f35ef9a7c31b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you >simply rising to the challenge? > >FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, >sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa >salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be >told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, >collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how >parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for >drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! > >-Wilson I'd go for any of the above except the candied yams, which are too sweet for me. Oursins, asa I like to think of them, are fine little critters, but not necessarily worth the effort, and those greens and roots are great. If I could have a bit of those scotch bonnets to squeeze into the pot likker or corn bread to sop in it, I'd be down with that too. (If I had my druthers, though, I'd opt for the "broth" made when you dip a mess o' steamer clams into hot water to wash off the sand. Is there a name for that? Clam likker?) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >> >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >> (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >> chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >> although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >> that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >> okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >> > >> >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >> >Who knows? >> >> > >> >> >-Wilson >> >> >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> >> a dry okratini every night...) > > >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> > >> >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >> >> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >>>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> >> ... >> >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >> >>socks up!" >> >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people >>survived on >> >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer >>the less slimy >> >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic >>Monthly hints >> >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping >>your socks >> >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> >> Okra >> >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by >>the Egyptians >> >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the >>central lands >> >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and >>ultimately to the >> >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no >>time at all it >> >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried >>okra, of course, >> >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern >>climes, but >> >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed >>alone or with >> >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this >>recipe to be >> >> >> at its best. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as >>"silky," a >> >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, >>especially >> >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. >But I refuse >> >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes >>like this: When >> >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > >> >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi >>McCulloch found the >> >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression >>was: "I ate >> >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes >>out slimy for >> >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I >>nearly slid >> >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" >>by Frank X. >> >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the >>august Atlantic >> >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers >>wrote. "But in >> >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the >>Atlantic Monthly >> >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind >>if I print >> >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> > > >> >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid >>by...He keeps >> >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: >>Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> >> Newsgroups: >>alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to >>have eaten so >> >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> >> keep us from sliding out." > > >> >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > > >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been >>familiar with it a >> >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a >>finicky eater. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the >>fantods. Do >> >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Comments >> >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate >>so much as a >> >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have >>had is just >> >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> >----- >> >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 04:41:33 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:41:33 -0400 Subject: Wet Burrito; NYC Deli Food Joke - "72 hours later, you're hungry again" Message-ID: WET BURRITO ... I did a post on the "wet burrito" ("burrito enchilada style"), if OED or DARE is interested. ... WET BURRITO--17,200 Google hits WET BURRITOS--9,990 Google hits BURRITOS + ENCHILADA STYLE--740 Google hits ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/wet_burrito_burrito_enchilada_style/ ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NYC DELI FOOD JOKE -- "72 HOURS LATER, YOU'RE HUNGRY AGAIN" ... The Sunday New York Times Magazine has a lengthy story on the nearly vanished Jewish deli in New York City. This quote is almost always attributed to the late NY Times writer Richard F. Shepard, but I tried many keywords in the NY Times archive (I have access through the Westbank library in Austin) and couldn't find it in his work. The quote does appear in the following Google-restricted book, but that dates from 1982. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Live and Be Well: A Celebration of Yiddish Culture in America by Richard F. Shepard, Vicki Gold Levi - Social Science - 2000 - 198 pages [ Sorry, this page's content is restricted ] (Originally published in 1982 -- B.P.) ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/72_hours_later_youre_hungry_again_joke_about_eating_deli_food/ ... Entry from October 20, 2007 "72 hours later, you're hungry again" (joke about eating deli food) The old line about Chinese food is that it isn't filling: "A few hours later, you're hungry again." New York's Jewish delis are known for their overstuffed sandwiches, prompting the joke: "72 hours later, you're hungry again." The line is often attributed to the late New York Times cultural reporter Richard F. Shepard, but it appears in a 1972 New York Times story by food writer Raymond Sokolov. New York Times March 7, 1998 Richard F. Shepard, 75, Editor And a Writer for The Times By ERIC PACE Richard F. Shepard, a retired New York Times writer who was also a former cultural news editor of The Times and was known for his amiably down-to-earth manner, which included meeting friends at a Theater District cafe he called ''the Polish Tea Room,'' died last night at his home in Fresh Meadows, Queens. He was 75 years old. 31 December 1972, New York Times, "Filling finger food" by Raymond Sokolov, pg. SM25: Many rude things have been said about Jewish food?that it is the major cause of heartburn in the New York area, that, after eating it, you get hungry 72 hours later and so on. These slurs most often come out of the mouths of people stuffing themselves with Jewish food. Save The Deli New York Times: Summary of the Deli Conference Thursday, August 2nd, 2007 (...) The food historian Joel Denker began his presentation by invoking Richard F. Shepard, a New York Times reporter who has since died and who once said, "I love Jewish food, but when you eat, 72 hours later, you're hungry again." New York Times A Counter History Published: October 21, 2007 (...) Or as the New York Times reporter and deli aficionado Richard F. Shepard used to say, "I love Jewish food, but when you eat it, 72 hours later you're hungry again." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 14:36:37 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:36:37 +0000 Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With all due respect, guys, the D in ADSL stands for DIALECT, not DIET. If you are going to post your "witty" private conversations to the entire list, could you PLEASE label them "Off Topic?" It isn't just that you are clogging my mailbox--I do not like to delete unopened messages from you two because they are often so interesting. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:14:13 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? East Texas?) >Larry, do you really go for food like sea urchins and such or are you >simply rising to the challenge? > >FWIW, I prefer candied yams and mustard greens with salt pork, >sprinkled with what was known in my part of Down Home as "peppa >salts": Scotch bonnet peppers marinated in vinegar. If the truth be >told, I was never really down with things like mustard, turnip, >collard, and beet greens or turnips and rutabaga. But you know how >parents are. I had no say in the matter. And I never got ready for >drinking pot liquor by the glass. Ugh! > >-Wilson I'd go for any of the above except the candied yams, which are too sweet for me. Oursins, asa I like to think of them, are fine little critters, but not necessarily worth the effort, and those greens and roots are great. If I could have a bit of those scotch bonnets to squeeze into the pot likker or corn bread to sop in it, I'd be down with that too. (If I had my druthers, though, I'd opt for the "broth" made when you dip a mess o' steamer clams into hot water to wash off the sand. Is there a name for that? Clam likker?) LH > >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >>East Texas?) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 10:48 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >Quite impressive! Have you tried chitterlings with Frank's hot sauce, >> >yet? Now, there's a taste treat for the ages! >> > >> >-Wilson >> >> The local "soul food" place near campus here, Sandra's >> (http://www.sandrasplace.com), cooks up an impressive mess o' >> chitlins on Fridays, and I always go for plenty of hot sauce, >> although I don't think it's Frank's per se. And the nice thing is >> that you can choose two sides, one of which of course must be fried >> okra. (The tough decision is sweet potato fries vs. collards.) >> >> LH >> >> > >> >On 10/18/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> >>----------------------- >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> >> Subject: Re: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> At 7:36 PM -0400 10/18/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> >Stewed okry vaguely resembles red peppers, except that it's green and >> >> >appears to be covered in a colorless mucilage trivially distinct from >> >> >nasal mucus. It takes some getting used to, even if the eater is a >> >> >native of East texas whose been fed it since becoming old enough to >> >> >eat solid food, especially after the mucilaginous substance has ceased >> >> >to be unique in the eater's experience. >> >> > >> >> >I don't know why, but, IMO, the stuff is as sticky as mucilage or the >> >> >grease from pig tails, swine neckbones, pig ears, pigs' feet, or pig >> >> >snoots and not very slick at all. Our okry was home-grown, so that may >> >> >have had something to do with it. Different subspecies or some such. >> >> >Who knows? >> >> > >> >> >-Wilson >> >> >> >> Much ado about nothing. I'm from New York and >> >> I've loved okra, stewed and fried and Indian, >> >> since I first tried 'em lo these 40 or years ago. >> >> Took me no getting used to, any more than squid. > > >> Now jellyfish and sea cucumber, *they* took >> >> getting used to, and I'm not sure I'm there yet. >> >> (Given the popularity of gumbo, I'm pretty sure >> >> I'm not alone in my okraphilia, although I may be >> >> a bit extreme in this--not everyone s(l)ips into >> >> a dry okratini every night...) > > >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> > >> >> >On 10/18/07, Barry Popik wrote: >> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the >> >> >>mail header ----------------------- >> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> >> >> Poster: Barry Popik >> >> >> Subject: "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" (1930s? >> >>East Texas?) >> >> >> >> >> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >>>>http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/i_ate_so_much_okra_i_slid_out_of_bed_or_i_couldnt_keep_my_socks_up/ >> >> >> ... >> >> >> Entry from October 18, 2007 >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" or "I couldn't keep my >> >>socks up!" >> >> >> Boiled okra has a reputation for being slimy. Many people >>survived on >> >> >> okra in the depression years of the 1930s, and the phrase arose: "I >> >> >> ate so much okra I slid out of bed!" Some people prefer >>the less slimy >> >> >> fried okra instead. >> >> >> >> >> >> Roy Blount Jr.'s ode "To Okra" in the July 1976 Atlantic >>Monthly hints >> >> >> that if you eat too much okra, you'll have trouble keeping >>your socks >> >> >> up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Tale: Okra >> >> >> Okra >> >> >> (Abelmoschus esculentus) >> >> >> Okra, related to the hibiscus and a member of the mallow family, is >> > > >> native to tropical Africa or Asia--and was cultivated by >>the Egyptians >> >> >> in the 12 century AD. It slowly traveled south into the >>central lands >> >> >> of Africa; north and west to Mediterranean lands and >>ultimately to the >> >> >> Balkans; and east to the subcontinent of India. >> >> >> >> >> >> It arrived in the United States in the 18th century with the slave >> > > >> trade, on a ship filled with Bantu tribes people. In no >>time at all it >> >> >> became a cornerstone in southern cooking, Texan cuisine, and perhaps >> >> >> most especially the distinctive Cajun cooking of Louisiana. >> >> >> >> >> >> It still grows wild in Ethiopia and Sudan, just as it did in >> >> >> prehistoric times. Its plants, related to cotton, were carried to >> >> >> India and Egypt where they are still used in cooking oil and as a >> >> >> coffee substitute. >> >> >> >> >> >> Today okra is used commercially as a hidden ingredient: it is the >> >> >> mucilage in catsup that makes it so hard to get out of the bottle. >> >> >> >> >> >> Okay, here's the whole stupid "Song to Okra" by Roy Blount, Jr.: >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Old Homer Ogletree's so high >> >> >> On okra he keeps lots laid by. >> >> >> He keeps it in a safe he locks up, >> >> >> He eats so much, can't keep his socks up. >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer >> >> >> When people call him Okra Homer. >> >> > > Okra! >> >> >> >> >> >> Texas Cooking - Grandma's Cookbook >> >> >> Stewed Okra and Tomatoes >> >> >> Okra is not well-known outside the southern states, which is >> >> >> understandable in that it's a hot-weather crop. Fried >>okra, of course, >> >> >> is immensely popular and has gained fame even in northern >>climes, but >> >> >> real okra lovers appreciate its flavor when it is stewed-that is, >> >> > > cooked slowly with a little liquid. Okra can be stewed >>alone or with >> >> >> other vegetables, most notably tomatoes. Ideally, you should have >> >> >> small pods of fresh okra and big, juicy tomatoes for this >>recipe to be >> >> >> at its best. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> People try to be kind to okra by describing its texture as >>"silky," a >> >> >> euphemism, to be sure. There's no getting around it: okra, >>especially >> >> >> stewed okra is slimey. There should be another word that does it > > >> >> justice, but I'm afraid the English language is lacking. >But I refuse >> >> >> to defend okra. It's delicious-so much so that I enjoy that slimey >> >> >> texture. There's an old one-liner about okra that goes >>like this: When >> >> >> I was a kid, I ate so much okra I couldn't keep my socks up. > > >> >> >> >> >> Google Books >> >> >> 1981 (?), Atlantic Monthly, pg. 586: >> >> >> 'I never had nary a cent in 1932,' a cropper told me, 'and I et so >> >> >> much okra I slid out of bed. >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 November 1966, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 29: >> >> >> IN OKRA, ON Sabana Creek, I was told that the village was so labeled >> >> >> because an early settler and postmaster named Levi >>McCulloch found the >> >> >> soil was well suited for raising the slippery vegetable, "and in the >> >> >> old days they ate so much okra they nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 20 November 1967, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's >>Texas" by Frank >> >> >> X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 1: >> >> >> But when they pass the stewed okra I say no. Slimy, slick stuff. A >> >> >> popular saying during the early 1930's business depression >>was: "I ate >> >> >> so much okra I nearly slid out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 13 April 1972, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "On an Okra Recipe and >> >> >> Florida Road Rally" by Frank X. Tolbert, section A, pg. 17: >> >> >> Most cooks don't know how to prepare okra. And it comes >>out slimy for >> >> >> them. Slimy and slick. In fact there was an old East Texas saying >> >> >> popular during The Great Depression: "I ate so much okra I >>nearly slid >> >> >> out of bed." >> >> >> >> >> >> 28 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Tolbert's Texas" >>by Frank X. >> >> >> Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> "I ate so much okra I slid out of bed" >> >> >> >> >> >> 9 July 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News "Okra Town and Some Poems >> >> >> Praising Okra" by Frank X. Tolbert, section D, pg. 3: >> >> >> MRS. HELEN ROGERS of Arlington sent me a poem about okra by Roy >> > > >> Blount, Jr., published in the July 1976 issue of the >>august Atlantic >> >> >> Monthly. >> >> >> >> >> >> "I don't even like the stuff-okra that is," Mrs. Rogers >>wrote. "But in >> >> >> my opinion the poem on okra by Roy Blount Jr. in the >>Atlantic Monthly >> >> >> is a dilly." >> >> >> >> >> >> I hope that Mr. Blount and the Atlantic Monthly don't mind >>if I print >> >> >> a few sample verses from the poem called "To Okra": >> > > >> >> >> >> "Old Homer Ogletree's so high on okra he keeps lots laid >>by...He keeps >> >> >> it in a safe he locks up, he eats so much, can't keep his socks up >> >> >> (Which goes to show it's no misnomer when people call him Okra >> >> >> Homer.)" >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 March 1987, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> >> "I've eaten so much okra I have to put sand in my bed to keep from >> >> >> slipping out." >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: soc.motss >> >> >> Newsgroups: soc.motss >> >> >> From: szrma... at chip.ucdavis.edu () >> >> >> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:47:16 GMT >> >> >> Local: Tues, Feb 1 1994 5:47 pm >> >> >> Subject: Re: Okra Winfrey (was: I *hate* beets (was Re: >>Glory Holes)) >> >> >> >> >> >> "County Comic" Jerry Clower said he ate so much "slick, slimy boiled >> >> >> okra" as a child that he couldn't keep his socks up.... How >> >> >> appetizing! >> >> >> >> >> >> Google Groups: alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast... >> >> >> Newsgroups: >>alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove >> >> >> From: "Nancy" >> >> >> Date: 1998/10/03 >> >> >> Subject: Re: WHO LOVES A FULL ENGLISH BREAKFAST??? >> >> >> >> >> >> BTW, have you heard the southern comedian who claims to >>have eaten so >> >> >> much okra as a child that he can't keep his socks up? >> >> >> >> >> >> 17 November 2003, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA): >> >> > > John A. Rooney III of Portland, Texas, says, "When I was a kid, my >> >> >> mother fed us so much okra that she had to throw sand in our beds to >> >> >> keep us from sliding out." > > >> >> >> >> >> Johnny Caker's Journal >> >> >> 2005-08-04 - 9:23 p.m. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> At supper Mom told a joke that her grandfather loved. Did you hear >> >> >> about the fella who loved boiled okra so much that he ate it every >> >> > > day? Well, he couldn't keep his socks up! Get it? Boiled okra is > > >> >> slimey! >> >> >> >> >> >> 30 March 2006, The Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA), pg. B1: >> >> >> T. G. Gaylor offers this from Jerry Clower: "My mama and grandma fed >> >> >> me so much boiled okra that I couldn't keep my socks up." >> >> >> >> >> >> Leon Hale (Houston Chronicle blog) >> >> >> October 03, 2006 >> >> >> It's better if you fry it >> >> >> Finicky. There's a curious adjective, but I've been >>familiar with it a >> >> >> long time because when I was a kid I was often called a >>finicky eater. >> >> >> >> >> >> I wouldn't eat boiled okra, for instance. It was slick and looked >> >> >> slimy and the sight of people eating the stuff gave me the >>fantods. Do >> >> >> you really like boiled okra? Ugh. >> >> >> (...) >> >> >> Comments >> >> >> you know what Jerry Clower said about boiled okra? "I ate >>so much as a >> >> >> kid my socks would not stay up." >> >> >> Posted by: barbara at October 4, 2006 05:58 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> Food Network Forums >> >> >> Re: Really Nice, Easy Chicken and Rice >> >> >> Wed, 25 October 2006 13:43 >> >> >> >> >> >> I know I must have already brought this up, but have you heard the >> >> >> comedian (his name escapes me) say, "I ate so much okra as a child I >> >> >> couldn't keep my socks up?" Hahaha! Fried okra that I have >>had is just >> >> >> breading with a little seedy slime in it! >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >-- >> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >> >----- >> >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> >> > >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > >> >-- >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> >----- >> > -Sam'l Clemens >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------ >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 14:43:47 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 14:43:47 +0000 Subject: "Yoot" resurfaces In-Reply-To: <965879.75992.qm@web53904.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The origin would seem to be simply a patronizing mimickry of working-class American pronunciation of word-final theta--or am I missing something here? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Lighter Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:32:35 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: [ADS-L] "Yoot" resurfaces Wentworth & Flexner's _DAS_ from 1960 includes a citation of _yoot_ from the _N.Y. World-Telegram and Sun_ of Aug. 16, 1957 (no page number given): "Cop Shot: 3 Yoots* Held...(*Yoot: a young punk; a juvenile no-goodnik)." This p.m. Fox News alluded to "yoots," explaining that it meant "angry youths." By way of further explanation, "Yoots hate the Establishment." A protest demonstration at the meeting of the World Bank and International Money Fund was the context. A Fox reporter was surrounded by "yoots" who stole his camera. The film, _My Cousin Vinny_ (1992) was cited as the inspiration. Cinephiles will recall the word's appearance there. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Oct 21 15:15:17 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:15:17 +0000 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife Message-ID: "Awkward" is no more than a wastebasket category for 'I don't like it'--in this case because the possessive marker is farther away from the phrase's head than LU finds aesthetically pleasing. Shock one ah songoo, as they say in French class. MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." But I would never patronize LU by accusing him of advocating prolix and inelegant syntax. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Sun Oct 21 16:13:04 2007 From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:13:04 -0500 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <20071017081832.IDB02140@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know of a chemist whose WWII discharge papers identified him as a "LAV" assistant! Barbara Barbara Need UChicago At 08:18 -0400 17/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, >but confusion did occur. > >--Charlie >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 >>From: Wilson Gray >> >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) >> >>-Wilson >> >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? >>> >>> --Charlie >>> _____________________________________________________________ >>> >>> ---- Original message ---- >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 >>> >From: Wilson Gray >>> > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: >>> > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" >>> > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses >>>the singular like a non-count noun. >>> > >>> >-Wilson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Sun Oct 21 17:48:04 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:48:04 -0700 Subject: Eggcorn? In-Reply-To: <464F5422.3000000@rcn.com> Message-ID: On May 19, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Phil Cleary wrote: > BBC America's print and online catalogues contain the following blurb > for the Guinness Toucan T-shirt: "Dublin's most famous brewery has > been > slacking thirsts for more than 175 years...." now on the ecdb: http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/989/slack/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 21 19:29:52 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:29:52 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) Message-ID: The most useful cite in the ADS database is still Barry's find of an interview with a police officer in the 14 September 1888 _Morning Oregonian_ which perhaps, if correct, shows the term came from the greeting used by tramps--"hobo" to identify themselves to each other. Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be more recognized at the time by Western citizens. "Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 "Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. Sam Clements **Also, there are other book cites by searching for "hobo+ tramp" "1850-1889. Some may even be legitimate antedates. But I don't have the patience of Stephen. If I can see the full view, then I take it. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 20:02:48 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:02:48 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: >From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which I hear quite > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly heard 'schmuck' > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much American cultural > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und > Schmuck"! m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:03:52 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: Say what? In-Reply-To: <200710211613.l9LAmxfj024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's probably lucky that I let well-enough alone. I told the Army that I had been a laboratory assistant as a civilian. After I described what I had done, my civvy job was determined to be "water-tender." (I was a laboratory assistant in a steam-electric generating plant.) -Wilson On 10/21/07, Barbara Need wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barbara Need > Subject: Re: Say what? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I know of a chemist whose WWII discharge papers identified him as a > "LAV" assistant! > > Barbara > > Barbara Need > UChicago > > At 08:18 -0400 17/10/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >Yes, Wilson, I rememeber a grade-school teacher's carefully > >explaining the referential distinction between the homonyms > >"lavatory" and "laboratory." Well, they weren't exactly homonyms, > >but confusion did occur. > > > >--Charlie > >_____________________________________________________________ > > > >---- Original message ---- > >>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:06:53 -0400 > >>From: Wilson Gray > >> > >>Don't we Southrons usually say "labbatory," causing a certain > >>amountof confusion with "lavatory," Charlie? :-) > >> > >>-Wilson > >> > >>On 10/16/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > >>> > >>> Did the attack occur in a larvatory? > >>> > >>> --Charlie > >>> _____________________________________________________________ > >>> > >>> ---- Original message ---- > >>> >Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:00:56 -0400 > >>> >From: Wilson Gray > >>> > > >>> >Heard on TLC, spoken by voice-over guy: > >>> > > >>> >"It's like you were being attacked by _lavra_!" > >>> > > >>> >This is the second time that I've heard "lavra," but it may have > >>>been the the same speaker, both times. I wasn't paying attention, > >>>the first time. IAC, he not only uses metathesis, but he also uses > >>>the singular like a non-count noun. > >>> > > >>> >-Wilson > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 21 21:07:52 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:07:52 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) In-Reply-To: <000601c81418$c1453cd0$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. > >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 > >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." > >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. Google Books is full of these pitfalls. In the current case, maybe two or more books have been combined. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:29:30 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:29:30 -0400 Subject: "Tavern" sandwiches, revisited (Iowa? Baltimore?) Message-ID: DARE and OED are possibly interested in "tavern" sandwiches. NewspaperArchive has been adding much material from Iowa, so it's worth another look. My previous post is attached below. ... Te problem is that thousands of establishments in America were called "taverns" in the 1940s and 1950s. Are we talking about Iowa's Ye Olde Tavern, Baltimore's Little Taverns, or the White Tavern restaurant chain? ... Of interest also are the terms "ratburger" and an "deathball" (not in HDAS) associated with the Little Tavern chain...Anyone interested in "White Tassel" hamburger cites? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Tavern Little Tavern Shops is a chain of hamburger restaurants in Baltimore, Maryland, and Washington, D.C. As of January 2007, three restaurants remain in the chain (including one in Laurel, that is currently closed for renovations), though it was much more numerous once: in 1939, there were 21 in Washington, D.C., and 50 in the Baltimore-Washington area. The slogan of the chain was "Buy 'em by the bag," and its signs promised "Cold drinks * Good Coffee." The stores were quite small and could accommodate only a few seated customers, while most business was take-out. The chain was founded in 1927 in Louisville, Kentucky, by Harry F. Duncan, who soon relocated to Washington, D.C., in 1928, where he opened a Little Tavern Shop in 814 E Street NW. The standard "Tudor cottage" restaurant design used by the chain was designed by engineer Charles E. Brooks and architect George E. Stone of Baltimore's Stonebrook Corporation. 17 November 1940, Charleston (WV) Gazette, pg. 8, col. 6 ad: Five Hamburger for 10c at The White Tavern 7 June 1951, Milford (Iowa) Mail, pg. 6, col. 1 ad: LAKELAND DRIVE IN (..) NEW AT THE KNOB HILL SNACK BAR Featuring Tavern Sandwiches We Sell 'em Exclusively 21 January 1954, Petersburg (VA) Progress-Index, pg. 14, cols. 5-6: Serve the hamburger patties with a flavorful butter mixture, or don't shape the patties and serve the browned hamburger meat in a thick barbecue sauce to be ladled over the toasted buns. These are known as "Tavern Burgers" in some areas of the country and are a special favorite of the teen-age crowd. 2 July 1984, Syracuse (NY) Herald-Journal, "The Butcher" by Merle Ellis," pg. D2, col. 1: Tavern burgers a timeless summer treat for children (...) Taverns originated (al east in my world) at Ye Olde Tavern, a little restaurant on 14th and Jackson in Sioux City, Iowa, where they were the house special and were devoured by hordes of hungry high school kids from Central. I went to "East High" on the other side of town, so we learned to make our own. ... They're so easy to make the kids can do it themselves in less time than it takes to make a trip to McDonald's. And, I guarantee every kid from 5 to 50 will love 'em! ... TAVERNS 2 pounds ground beef 1 cup water 3/4 cup catsup 3 tablespoons prepared mustard 1/2 teaspoon chili powder to taste 1 onion minced Salt and pepper to taste Bring the water to a boil in a good-sized pan. Crumble the ground beef and add it to the water, along with the rest of the ingredients. Bring the mixture back to a boil for a minute or two, stirring to mix well and break up any lumps of meat. Reduce heat, cover and simmer 20 minutes. 26 March 1986, The Capital (Annapolis, MD), "A hamburger's place in history" by Eric Smith, pg. 35, col. 1: In Baltimore they are known affectionately as "deathballs." In Washington they're called "ratburgers" -- also affectionately. And in the days when Annapolis boasted a pair of Little Taverns on Main Street and West Street, many people here passionately believed that they served the tastiest hamburgers in the entire world. (...) "Oh, yes. And it's been that way ever since Mr. Harry Duncan started Little Taverns back in 1927. Even the square buns are made especially for us by Wonder Bread from our own dough recipe." 6 August 2001, The Capital (Annapolis, MD), "Little burgers bring a blast from the past" by Eric Smith, pg. B1, col. 2: Not just any hamburgers, but the kind we used to call "ratburgers" and "deathballs" when I was a kid. They are small, cheap, laced with chopped onions and posses an addictive quality that causes people my age to search for them like the Holy Grail. (...) (Col. 3) Little Taverns were the premier purveyors of tiny, tasty hamburgers in the Washington-Baltimore area, and sure enough, readers wrote in to Mrs. Jaques to tell her that Little Taverns had not completely disappeared, that some had been spotted as far away as East Baltimore and Laurel. (Trademark) Word Mark LITTLE TAVERN SHOPS Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: SANDWICHES. FIRST USE: 19281101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19281101 Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM Serial Number 71586924 Filing Date October 27, 1949 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0549509 Registration Date October 16, 1951 Owner (REGISTRANT) LITTLE TAVERN SHOPS, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 5100 GEORGIA AVENUE, N.W. WASHINGTON D.C. (LAST LISTED OWNER) AL & PAUL FOOD VENTURE, LLC LTD LIAB CO BY ASSIGNMENT MARYLAND PO BOX 908 ABINGDON MARYLAND 21009 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Prior Registrations 0256754 Disclaimer THE WORD "SHOPS" IS DISCLAIMED APART FROM THE MARK SHOWN IN THE DRAWING. Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20020126. Renewal 3RD RENEWAL 20020126 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ... ... ... (ADS-L POST, 14 August 2003) http://www.greece.k12.ny.us/taylor/topics/localwords.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: [log in to unmask] (Mary Johnson): Hi, what a great idea for a project. I just have a couple different words to add to your list. I teach in an elementary school in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I grew up on a farm in South Dakota. Here is our version of some of your examples. We eat subs and drink pop, a milkshake has ice cream in it and we put our groceries in a paper bag or sack. Here are a couple new ones for you. The area where I grew up called a loose-meat sandwich with tomato sauce, ketchup, etc. on a bun, a "tavern". This sandwich is also known as a "Sloppy Joe", a "BBQ" in Sioux Falls, and a "Made Right" in parts of Iowa. Growing up on a farm, the meals of the day were called Breakfast, Dinner(noon), Supper(evening), and Lunch was an afternoon snack. Whereas most people call the noon meal Lunch. 27 July 1951, LEMARS SEMI WEEKLY SENTINEL (Le Mars, Iowa), pg. 1, col. 3: When asked about student preferences, Miss Watson replied "I think they prefer loose meat sandwiches, such as taverns." 20 August 1953, LEMARS GLOBE-POST (Le Mars, Iowa), pg. 8?, col. 3: (HAM SANDWICHES---TAVERNS--- ICE CREAM--CAKE--COFFEE) 19 August 1954, LEMARS GLOBE-POST (Le Mars, Iowa), pg.1, col 7: Serving ham sandwiches, taverns, hot dogs, ice cream, cake and coffee. 2 September 1954, HAWARDEN INDEPENDENT (Hawarden, Iowa), pg. 2?, col. 1: Baked Ham Sandwiches, Taverns, Hot Dogs, Home Made Pies and Coffee will be served. 15 July 1957, HARLAN NEWS ADVERTISER (Harlan, Iowa), pg.1, col. 4: The menu calls for loose meat sandwiches, hot dogs, potato chips, soft drinks, ice cream and milk, Wigness said. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 21 21:35:20 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:35:20 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <200710212003.l9LB0cW4010397@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means "penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or "compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or manliness or something along those lines. I used to vaguely wonder whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a Schmueckerei. -Wilson On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" > (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): > > 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into > > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which I hear quite > > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east > > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly heard 'schmuck' > > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much American cultural > > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means > > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not > > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und > > Schmuck"! > > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM Sun Oct 21 21:45:07 2007 From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 16:45:07 -0500 Subject: "Tavern" sandwiches, revisited (Iowa? Baltimore?) In-Reply-To: <200710212129.l9LAmx0P024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The only time I heard "tavern" used in the sense of a sandwich was from a Nebraskan. She also insisted that in the winter time you scoop snow off your sidewalk. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 22 00:18:35 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:18:35 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <82745f630710211435oe955d53g1a6290ad76ac089a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the German/Yiddish case. LH >I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson > >On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" >> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >> >> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into >> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>I hear quite >> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east >> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>heard 'schmuck' >> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>American cultural >> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means >> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und >> > Schmuck"! >> >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Oct 22 00:28:33 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:28:33 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) In-Reply-To: <20071021210751.XAXZ24626.mta15.adelphia.net@your-d137mzmhow.nb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:07:52PM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but > >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be > >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. > > > >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic > >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From > >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 > > > >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, > >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have > >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it > >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. > >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? > >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times > >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." > > > >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. > > Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: > page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. Yes, this is a government document on Utah bound together with a book on Mormons. This sort of thing is particularly dangerous, because if you just skip back to the start of the entire text, you'll see the actual title page of the 1886 volume. And while we're at it, the author is "A Gentile", not "A. Gentile" :-) Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Oct 22 00:45:09 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:45:09 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) Message-ID: Many thanks to Doug and Jessie for correcting my exuberance. Sam Clements ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886) > On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:07:52PM -0400, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >Using Google Book Search, I find an earlier cite for the term, but >> >nothing helpful to explain the term, only that it would appear to be >> >more recognized at the time by Western citizens. >> > >> >"Social Problems of To-Day; or The Mormon Question in Its Economic >> >Aspects" by A. Gentile, 1886, From >> >http://books.google.com/books?id=IkMlAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA4-PA33&dq=hobo+tramp+date:1850-1889&as_brr=0 >> > >> >"Mr. RICHARDS. Yes, sir; if you had gone into the city of Ogden, >> >situated 37 miles from Salt Luke City, two weeks ago, it would have >> >been as impossible to find what we call a hobo in that city as it >> >would be to find one in the paradise of Heaven. >> >Senator DAVIS. What is a hobo ? >> >Mr. RICHARDS. A tramp who comes there to vote, votes as many times >> >as he can, and gets as much money as possible for doing it." >> > >> >So, the term was familiar to Mr. Richards, who was from Ogden. >> >> Looks to me like the date is actually 1892. The above is on p. 33: >> page back to p.1 and you'll see the date, I think. > > Yes, this is a government document on Utah bound together with > a book on Mormons. This sort of thing is particularly > dangerous, because if you just skip back to the start of the > entire text, you'll see the actual title page of the 1886 > volume. > > And while we're at it, the author is "A Gentile", not > "A. Gentile" :-) > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 22 01:08:27 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:08:27 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. Gerald Cohen ________________________________ From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Sun 10/21/2007 7:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: > >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the German/Yiddish case. LH >I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson > >On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Mark Mandel >> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word "kvetch" >> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >> >> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way into >> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>I hear quite >> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially the east >> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>heard 'schmuck' >> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>American cultural >> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German means >> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying "Juwelier und >> > Schmuck"! >> >> >> m a m >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > >-- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >----- > -Sam'l Clemens > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Oct 22 01:18:07 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:18:07 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >>colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >>"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >>trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >>the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >>"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >>manliness or something along those lines. > >I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" >metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the >German/Yiddish case. I guess there is some question about the origin of "schmuck". I've seen the Yiddish word written "shmok" etc. which comports fairly well with the pronunciation /SmVk/ in English, not so well with German "Schmuck" /SmUk/ or so (we have "schnook" in English, why not "schmook" if it's German "Schmuck"?). Of course I don't know bobkes from Yiddish or any other language, but just maybe the general German slang "Schmuck" was from Yiddish rather than vice versa ... and assimilated to "Schmuck" = "ornament". I see Croatian "s^mokljan" (s^ = s-with-hacek) = "blockhead" etc., possibly from the Yiddish, or from some Slavic origin .... One candidate etymon of Yiddish "shmok" = "penis" is old Polish "smok" = "dragon"/"snake" (in MW3). Currently I see Polish "smok" = "dragon". Also Byelorussian "tsmok". These would be expected to be /SmOk/ or so in German/Yiddish, I think? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1082 - Release Date: 10/20/2007 2:59 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Oct 22 01:24:41 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:24:41 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IIRC, Lenny Bruce was once arrested in New York by a Yiddish speaking cop for using "schmuck" on the stage. In his defense Bruce called on his grandmother as an expert witness on Yiddish, Her testimony was that schmuck was a male decoration similar to a lapel pin Laurence Horn wrote: > At 5:35 PM -0400 10/21/07, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >> colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >> "penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >> trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >> the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >> "compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >> manliness or something along those lines. > > I've always understood it as the same idea as the "family jewels" > metaphor, although there's only one such jewel involved in the > German/Yiddish case. > > LH > >> I used to vaguely wonder >> whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >> Schmueckerei. >> >> -Wilson >> >> On 10/21/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Mark Mandel >>> Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> From an English friend, commenting on a post which used the word >>> "kvetch" >>> (Yiddish for 'complain, gripe'): >>> >>> 'Kvetch' is one of several Yiddish words which have made their way >>> into >>> > English ('kibitz' and 'schmuck' are others I can think of which >>> I hear quite >>> > often). I suspect from the British Jewish communities (especially >>> the east >>> > end of London) as well as imported via American, I certainly >>> heard 'schmuck' >>> > and 'kvetch' when I was at school before we had very much >>> American cultural >>> > influence in the British media. Confusingly, 'schmuck' in German >>> means >>> > decoration or jewellry (also 'pretty' and 'smart' (as in dress, not >>> > intelligence!)), I got very confused when I saw signs saying >>> "Juwelier und >>> > Schmuck"! >>> >>> >>> m a m >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to >> come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> ----- >> -Sam'l Clemens >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > -- HONK IF YOU LOVE PEACE AND QUIET ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Mon Oct 22 02:04:09 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 21:04:09 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) Message-ID: For usage, Leo Rosen in The Joys of Yiddish relates an anecdote about an old man who had retired to Florida and bought a camel which he rode around. One day, a friend asked him if his camel were male or female. He thought a bit and replied that it must be male, as when he rode it around he would hear people tell their friends, "Look at the schmuck on that camel." Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:08 PM Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. Gerald Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:34:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:34:34 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich Message-ID: HOBO: Whew! That was close! Thought I'd lost another one! ... ... ... TAVERN SANDWICH: (Probably similar to the long article I'd posted previously by the same author -- B.P.) Tavern sandwich deserves its fame (December 1, 1993) San Antonio Express-News Page 3C (411 Words) Merle Ellis, The Butcher Every town in America has some claim to fame. The city I grew up in, Sioux City, Iowa, has several special claims to fame. It may, for example, qualify as the popcorn capital of the world because Jolly Time popcorn comes from there. Another claim to fame Sioux City has earned but not proclaimed nationally is as the originating place of the tavern. Not the saloon, bar or watering hole that you normally associate with the word, but rather the sandwich... ... ... Sex-Crime Panic: A Journey to the Paranoid Heart of the 1950s by Neil Miller Los Angeles, CA: Alyson Publishing 2002 Pg. 49: In one of the trial's lighter moments, Tacy questioned the police lieutenant about an interest his wife had in a Sioux City establishment, Ye Old (sic) Tavern. "Does your wife have a license to sell beer?" Tacy demanded. "We sell root beer," aid Dennison. "But it is called a tavern, isn't it?" Tacy persisted. "That's because we sell tavern sandwiches," replied the policeman. (A "tavern sandwich" is Iowa lingo for a loose-meat sandwich, a sloppy joe.) ... ... 1 December 1944, Rock Valley (Iowa) Bee, pg. 8, col. 3: There will be hot vegetable soup, tavern sandwiches and pie for lunch. ... 29 November 1951, Hawarden (Iowa) Independent, pg. 27, col. 7: Have a tavern sandwich at the city hall Saturday, Dec. 1, at the Catholic Ladies bake sale and bazaar. ... 16 August 1964, Sioux City (Iowa) Sunday Journal, pg. H10, col. 6 ad: Ye Olde Tavern Inn Home of the original Ye Olde Tavern Sandwiches 14th and Jackson Sts. "Sioux City's Oldest Privately Owned Restaurant" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Mon Oct 22 03:44:00 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:44:00 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Popik" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Antedating of "Hobo" (1886); Tavern Sandwich > HOBO: > Whew! That was close! Thought I'd lost another one! Actually, you did. Stephen antedated it by two days. But your cite was still the potentially most useful. Stephen Goranson= http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0709C&L=ADS-L&P=R5587&I=-3 BP= http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0606D&L=ADS-L&P=R10273&I=-3&m=43412 Sam ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:50:22 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:50:22 EDT Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this could be considered an actual eggcorn: << SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came across one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: "Residential hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. Garages, basements, addicts." --Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll >> Rosemarie No husband has ever been shot while washing the dishes. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From my.cache at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 03:56:47 2007 From: my.cache at GMAIL.COM (Towse) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:56:47 -0700 Subject: Sorority Sauce (ranch dressing) In-Reply-To: <20071020224119.pmqbye4dw80w044g@www.mail.yale.edu> Message-ID: Jalape?o peppers and pineapple pizza is pure California and the pizza of choice for the Indus peninsula vegetarians in Silicon Valley. The company I worked for had a gathering at my place and the Round Table pizza folks called back to make sure I had =really= ordered eight extra-large jalape?o pepper and pineapple pizzas. On 10/20/07, William Salmon wrote: > ..Ranch dressing > > on pizza? Is pizza really that bad here in Texas? > > I thought ranch on pizza was a California thing. -- Sal Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and the terminally curious ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Mon Oct 22 04:45:13 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 23:45:13 -0500 Subject: Vatican 2.2? Wichita Catholic School goes English-only Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: Vatican 2.2? Wichita Catholic School goes English-only A Wichita Catholic school is now requiring its students to speak only English in school. In September, officials at St. Anne School sent home a letter notifying parents of the new policy, enacted to punish four students for allegedly using Spanish to bully other children and make fun of teachers and administrators. There are 75 Hispanic and 27 Asian children in the 243-student school, which runs from pre-kindergarten to eighth grade and has no foreign-language classes. Bullying and disrespectful behavior were already prohibited by the school handbook, but the school?s letter failed to explain why that policy was insufficient to deal with the recent incidents. Nor did it specify why the school?s 71 remaining Spanish speakers, along with its Vietnamese- and Chinese-speaking students, were also being punished by having their languages banned from the hallways. And it failed to indicate whether students who bully others or disrespect their teachers in English will be forced to stop speaking altogether. . . . To find out more, read the rest on the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 06:37:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:37:00 -0400 Subject: "Fried Pickle" ("Frickle") Mystery (Mississippi?) Message-ID: I just made two entries for "fried pickles" and "frickles," a very popular Southern dish. ... The Wikipedia "fried pickle" entry is extremely short and clearly wrong. The "Cock of the Walk" restaurant began in 1977, and I've found "french fried pickle slices" in 1962. That restaurant could not possibly have invented the dish. I would correct the Wikipedia, but I'm not allowed to cite my work. ... It's also frequently claimed (by food writer John T. Edge and others) that "fried pickles" originated at the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Mississippi in 1969, but again, this appears doubtful. ... O.T.: My pregnant wife loves pickles. Fortunately, I'll easily make ten cents from this post, and it'll pay all of our medical bills. ... ... ... FRICKLES: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/frickles_fried_pickles/ ... ... FRIED PICKLES: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/fried_pickles_fried_dill_pickles_french_fried_pickle_slices/ ... Entry from October 22, 2007 Fried Pickles (Fried Dill Pickles; French Fried Pickle Slices) Fried pickles are served throughout the South (and, now, in many northern cities as well). The exact origin of "fried pickles," however, is unknown. It is claimed in the Wikipedia (below) that the Cock of the Walk restaurant first created this dish, but that restaurant opened in April 1977?clearly too late to have invented the dish. It is often claimed that the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, MS invented fried pickles in 1969, but "french fried pickle slices" is cited in print in 1962. "Fried pickles" are often called "frickles." Ranch dressing often is served with fried pickles. Wikipedia: Fried pickle A fried pickle is a snack item found commonly in the American South. It is made by deep-frying a sliced battered dill pickle. A restaurant by the name of Cock of the Walk is credited with this creation. This once small shack located on the Mississippi River is now a large chain also known for their fried catfish. Roadfood Forums - Fried Pickles Posted - 11/27/2005 : 21:08:07 Dearfolk, As has been noted elsewhere, fried dill pickles began as a last-ditch effort by a chef to put out food - ANY food - to feed anxious customers at The Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Mississippi. From that fated moment, their popularity has spread considerably. One Athens establishment, The Blind Pig, always has them available. In fact, now I'll have to wander down there and have some in a few minutes, along with my first taste of their Brunswick stew. My favorite eatery/drinkery, Copper Creek Brewing Co., offers fried pickles from time to time. The chef fried some up one night out of pure boredom; several customers (the regulars first, then others who noted the oddity and HAD to try some) ordered up some until the place ran plumb out of pickles. Both of these examples use the standard Delta version: sliced pickles cut on the bias and breaded and fried. One nearby restaurant, The Berryman House in Bowman, Georgia, serves fried pickle spears. The people there were indeed amazed when I ordered up some with my breakfast! Now I can't help but wonder what fried sweet pickle slices would taste like.... Cucumbersomely, Ort. Carlton in Chilly Athens, Georgia. (...) Posted - 11/28/2005 : 00:26:59 it is a southern thing, hell we have deep fried versions of just about everything down here. (Twinkies, snickers, ice cream) They are good at Cock of the Walk in Maumelle, AR along with the catfish. Just stay away from the chicken there it tends to be very dry and tough. But they do have great fish, fried pickles, and tossed cornbread (they literally throw it up in the air right in front of you and catch it in a cast iron skillet at your table. Cock of the Walk Restaurant The first Cock of the Walk opened in April, 1977, on the bank of the ole "Mighty Muddy" Mississippi River in Natchez, Mississippi. The founders were Sallie and Basil Ballard, Weeta and Forrest Colebank, and Ann and George Eyrich. 19 November 1962, Oakland (CA) Tribune, "Peter Piper Pick a Peck...,"pg. 23, cols. 3-4: POPULAR PICKLES again show their versatility in this French Fried Pickle recipe prepared specially for the 1962 Newspaper Food Editors Conference in New York. A happy addition to the appetizer tray or used as a side dish with meats for dinner or a snack with juice, soft drinks in the evening, these delightful little treats are easy to prepare and delicious to eat. FRENCH FRIED PICKLE SLICES One cup sweet cucumber pickle slices One cup unsifted pancake mix Two eggs Two-thirds cup milk Oil for frying Drain pickle slices on paper towels, turn once to dry both sides of pickle well. Combine eggs and milk; add gradually to pancake mix, stirring during addition and until mixture is smooth. Heat oil in electric fry pan with temperature control set at 375 degrees F., or in skillet on medium fire. Dip drained pickle slices, one at a time into batter covering pickle slice entirely. Fry in hot fat until golden brown and turn, about one minute. Drain slices on paper towel and serve at once while hot. Makes 36 to 40 French Fried Pickle slices. Use any of the pickle slices...sweet, candied, sweet pickle chips, etc. 12 December 1969, Burlington (NC) Daily Times-News, "Pickles Help To Make Any Meal Complete" Miss York Kiker (Department of Agriculture - Marketing Home Economist), by pg. 13A, cols. 3-4: French Fried Pickles Slices 1 cup sweet cucumber pickle slices 1 cup unsifted pancake mix 2 eggs 2-3 cup milk Oil for frying Drain pickle slices on paper towels, turn once to dry both sides of pickle well. Combine eggs and milk; add gradually to pancake mix, stirring during addition and until mixture is smooth. Heat oil in electric fry pan with temperature control set at 375 degree F. or in skillet on medium fire. Dip drained pickle slices, one at a time, into batter covering pickle slices entirely. Fry in hot fat until a golden brown and turn about minute. Drain slices on paper towel and serve at once while hot. Yield: 36 to 40 French Fried Pickle slices. Use any of the pickle slices...sweet, dill, super sweet, pickle chips, etc. (This article was also printed in December 4, 1969, Lumberton, NC Robesonian, pg. 9, cols. 5-8?ed.) 10 September 1976, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. A3, col. 1: This year's fair menu offers everything imaginable, from tacos to spud dogs, hoagies to home made bread, french dip sandwiches to fried dill pickles and home made candy to corn on the cob. (Eastern Idaho State Fair in Blackfoot?ed.) 15 September 1976, Walla Walla (WA) Union-Bulletin, "If pickles are your dish, then try them in a hot one," pg. 15, col. 2: Fried pickles 1/2 cup flour 1 teaspoon sugar 1/4 teaspoon salt 1 egg 1/4 cup water several dill pickles, sliced Dip the 1/4-inch thick pickle slices in a batter made from the other ingredients. Fry the coated slices in hot oil until they are golden brown. Serve them with a sauce made of slightly more than 1/4 cup ketchup and slightly less than 1/4 cup mayonnaise. 2 June 1977, Lima (OH) News, pg. D1, col. 5: By the end of 1973 she decided to combine the two approaches into her newsletter?a different kind of periodical for women. it contained chatty little items about keeping house and raising a family, recipes for unusual dishes like fried pickles and salad soup, and a hefty dose of jokes and humorous narratives. (Gloria Pitzer's National Homemaker's Newsletter?ed.) 4 September 1977, Idaho State Journal (Pocatello, ID), pg. D1, col. 2: "Tiger Ears" (a pressed dough cake with cinnamon and sugar) was the most popular food at the '76 fair?but this year it may be French Fried Dill Pickles, the manager predicted. "Hot dill pickles with crisp batter coating?they are really good!" (Eastern Idaho State Fair?ed.) 13 November 1977, Abilene (TX) Reporter-News, pg. 2F, col. 4: FRENCH FRIED DILL PICKLES Fredda Cook Snyder 2 large dill pickles, sliced 1 egg 1 cup pancake batter 1/2 cup milk Mix pancake batter with milk and egg. Dip sliced pickles in flour then in batter. Deep fry until golden. 13 January 1981, North Hills News Record (Warrendale, PA), pg. 9, col. 3 ad: Deep Fried Dill Pickles (Franklin Inn at Franklin Park?ed.) 26 August 1982, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, "Southern-fried dill pickles?", section 5, pg. 5, col. 1: MEMPHIS, Tenn. (UPI)?The South has given the world its own special version of deep-fried chicken and catfish, so why shouldn't there be a spot on the menu for fried dill pickles? That's the feeling of Chad Selden of Hollywood, Miss., who claims at least partial credit for bringing fried pickles into vogue. Selden's brother, Tate, used to manage The Hollywood,a cafe in their hometown where fried dill pickles were a favorite item. The cafe is now owned by Bob Hall, who showed how to make fried dill pickles during a demonstration at the Mid-South Folklife Festival in Memphis. "There are a couple of different recipes, real hot and kind of mild," Selden said in an interview. "The basic thing is to start with a beer batter." (...) Add spices?garlic salt, paprika, red pepper, black pepper and "anything you got around the kitchen" to all-purpose flour. Stir in a little beer. Set the batter aside to thicken enough to cling to a dill pickle chip. "It's best to let it age an hour at least, maybe longer, to get all of the spices to exude all their goodies," Selden said. Slice dill pickles crosswise about one-eighth to one-quarter-inch thick. Dip in batter and fry until crisp in deep fat preheated to 350 to 375 degrees. Serve hot. 26 October 1983, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, Food, pg. 7, col. 4: French Fried Pickles 1 qt. dill pickles, thinly sliced 1 3/4 c. flour (divided) 2 tsp. red pepper 2 tsp. paprika 2 tsp. black pepper 2 tsp garlic salt 1 tsp, salt 3 dashes hot sauce 1 c. beer vegetable oil Dip pickles in 1 cup flour, set aside. Combine 3/4 cup flour and all dry ingredients. Add hot sauce and beer, mixing well. Dip pickles into batter. Deep fry in hot oil until pickles float to top and are golden brown. Drain and serve. Makes 2 1/2 dozen. Linda Laidley, 1511 Birchwood, Roslyn. 2 July 1984, Syracuse (NY) Herald-Journal, "The Butcher" by Merle Ellis," pg. D2, cols. 3-4: Tavern burgers a timeless summer treat for children (...) Taverns originated (al east in my world) at Ye Olde Tavern, a little restaurant on 14th and Jackson in Sioux City, Iowa, where they were the house special and were devoured by hordes of hungry high FRIED DILL PICKLES 1 egg, beaten 8 ounces milk 1 tablespoon Lea & Perrin Sauce or 6 drops Tabasco 1 tablespoon flour Salt and pepper 2 cups flour Sliced dill pickles Oil for deep frying Mix beaten egg with milk, sauces and 1 tablespoon flour. Add salt and pepper to taste. Mix 2 cups flour with salt and pepper to taste in a separate bowl. Dip pickles in egg mixture then into flour, then into egg and back into flour. Fry in 350-degree deep fat until golden brown. 30 October 1985, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, "Fried dill pickles are a regional specialty" by Cecily Brownstone (Associated Press), pg. 9, cols. 1-3: DEAR CECILY: I've heard that fried pickles, served with catfish, are a specialty of the Hollywood Cafe in Hollywood, Miss. (...)?CURIOUS. DEAR CURIOUS: Because I had never heard of fried dill pickles I asked an acquaintance of mine who is particularly interested in regional Southern dishes to research the subject. She reports that according to the Center for Southern Folklore in Memphis, Tenn., fried dill pickles are indeed served at Mississippi's Hollywood Cafe. In fact, they originated there. Here is the recipe she ferreted out.?C. B. FRIED DILL PICKLES 2 large egg yolks 1 cup water 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 32-ounce jar dill pickles, well drained Oil for frying Beat together egg yolks and water until blended. Gradually beat in flour, keeping the batter smooth, but not over-beating. Trim ends from pickles. Slice 1/4-inch thick. Dry well on paper towels. Heat oil for shallow frying to 375 degrees. Dip pickle slices into batter and fry, without crowding, in the hot oil until slightly browned. Remove and drain on paper towels. Serve at once. (More on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 22 07:28:30 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:28:30 -0400 Subject: various book scanning projects In-Reply-To: <0b3001c8144f$d788ae50$6401a8c0@hausemobile> Message-ID: The NY Times reports on a variety of book-scanning projects: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22library.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 22 07:49:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 00:49:45 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy Message-ID: In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake that wasn't edited. The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an effect. FWIW. Benjamin Barrett a cyberbreath for language life livinglanguage.wordpress.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 22 11:22:34 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:22:34 -0400 Subject: slight antedating of hobo (April 19, 1888) Message-ID: Paper: Kansas City Star, published as The Kansas City Star; Date: 04-19-1888; Volume: 14; Issue: 184; Page: [2]; [col. 6] [America's Historical Newspapers] KANSAS NOTES ....Wichita is struggling with the problem of reducing its "hobo" surplus. "Hobo" is Wichita for tramp. Headline: East Grand Forks News; Article Type: News/Opinion Paper: Grand Forks Herald, published as The Daily Herald; Date: 07-20-1888; Volume: 14; Issue: 68; Page: [4]; [col 4} North Dakota [Am. Hist. News.] EAST GRAND FORKS NEWS ....A genuine hobo tried to run the Point on Wednesday evening. He started in by flashing his razor and cutting a young man's coat.... Later articles give the plural variously as hobos and hoboes. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 22 12:26:41 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 05:26:41 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <471C5619.9070408@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". ?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with final /i/.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 12:26:40 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:26:40 -0400 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710220749.l9LB0cqO010397@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to the OED, the verb is spelled "prophesy," which, a la Blanchette, I also pronounce [profIsai] or [prof at sai]. -Wilson On 10/22/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: prophesai for prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is > speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I > don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake > that wasn't edited. > > The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, > "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of > her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. > That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an > effect. > > FWIW. > > Benjamin Barrett > a cyberbreath for language life > livinglanguage.wordpress.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Mon Oct 22 13:12:46 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 06:12:46 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710221226.l9MAkdXI005630@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The only pronunciation and spelling I've ever known for the verb in question are as Arnold and Wilson say. BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an upcoming biopic. JL "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Subject: Re: prophesai for prophecy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say > "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". ?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with final /i/.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 22 13:27:27 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:27:27 -0400 Subject: various book scanning projects In-Reply-To: <20071022032830.1y8cocq7ko8gsgkc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Might someone (with clout) suggest to the article's writer -- who might be interested -- that she (or the NY Times) investigate the problems with Google's scanning methods and results? I can suggest someone to be interviewed, who has designed a bibliographic data base that does not suffer from some of Google's problems. Joel At 10/22/2007 03:28 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >The NY Times reports on a variety of book-scanning projects: >http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/technology/22library.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 13:36:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:36:31 -0400 Subject: Hi! Message-ID: Hi, sugar! Would you believe that I'm about third in line for the the laundry on this floor?! It looks like I'm going to have to start climbing the mountain. An article in the Times says that an organization known as the "Boston Library Consortium," including the BPL, Yale, and a few other places refusing to deal with Google, for fear tthat Google will start making money off the copies or some such. I'm washing on the third floor. Love you, -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Mon Oct 22 14:35:48 2007 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:35:48 -0400 Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") In-Reply-To: <200710192017.l9JAlV2B032255@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm from the NYC area, but I don't know Mello Rolls...I always heard it as "...with a ten-foot pole". Yours, Paul Johnston On Oct 19, 2007, at 4:17 PM, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Mello Roll ("Up your hole with a mello roll!") > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > OT: I wonder if you can sue "Balderdash & Piffle" under Britain's > strict libel laws. My "bloody mary" work is on my website and also on > Wikipedia. It was posted first on ADS-L and clearly known to OED. No > one at OED can know this?...Maybe Jessica Seinfeld (famous cookbook > author) can take credit for my food work...Gotta do some work on "wet > burritos" and "saddle-style" burritos. Any OED entry under > "saddle"?...This unpaid, unloved work never ends. > ... > Maybe some old New Yorkers here remember "mello rolls" and can help > with the below. There's surprisingly little on the web, and the term > does not appear to be trademarked..."Up your hole with a mello roll" > ("Up your nose with a rubber hose") is a shocking omission in the > otherwise brilliant Yale Book of Quotations. > ... > ... > ... > http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/ > mello_roll_or_mell_o_roll_up_your_hole_with_a_mello_roll/ > ... > Entry from October 19, 2007 > Mello Roll or Mell-O-Roll ("Up your hole with a Mello Roll!") > Mello rolls (also sometimes spelled "mello-rolls" or "mell-o-rolls," > perhaps like "jell-o") were ice cream treats, somewhat like ice cream > cones. They were popular in the Bronx and in Brooklyn; many people > remember them served at Jones Beach in the 1940s and 1950s. > > The television show Welcome Back, Kotter (1975-1979) was based on > comedian Gabriel Kaplan's life, as expressed in his comedy album Holes > and Mello-Rolls. One joke line on the tv show?"Up your nose with a > rubber hose!"?was originally recalled by Kaplan as ""Up your hole with > a mello roll!" > > > Back in the Bronx: > Celebrating the Experience of Growing Up and Living in the Bronx > (http://www.backinthebronx.com) > Volume III, Issue IX, pg. 10: > Proverbs & Sayings > (...) > 14. Charlotte Russe...Sponge cake in a cylindrical body of cardboard > with a lot of whipped cream and as you eat it, you push it up from the > bottom. > 15. Mello Roll...Ice cream wrapped in a cylindrical shape that you > peeled off the wrapper and pushed in a special mello roll cone. > > Newsday > New Yorkers share Jones Beach memories > (...) > "I have been going to Jones Beach since 1955. I remember Field 9 and > when I hike around out there now, I find pieces of the old parking lot > coming up through the sand. They sold Mell-Rolls at the concession > there?a concession shaped like the pilot house of a ship. Mello-Rolls > were a cylindrical chunt of vanilla ice cream wrapped in paper which > would be unrolled and placed into a wafer cone." ?Bill Picchioni > Rockville Centre > > Boomer Baby Memories; Food > Mello roll and Charlotte Russe > Growing up in Brooklyn there was a candy store on practically every > corner and a bakery a few blocks away. Two of my favorites were Mello > Rolls and Charlotte Russes. The challenge was to get the Mello Roll > onto the cone without it falling on the floor. It took a lot of > practice but it was worth the effort! --- Jeannie M. South Florida > (formerly Brooklyn) - 1946 > > 6 December 1970, New York (NY) Times, pg. 229 ad: > Complete Mello-Roll Machine and Hardener > > 11 January 1976, New York (NY) Times, "Comedy Disks From Carlin to > Kaplan to Klein" by Shaun Considine, pg. D17: > A blurb on the cover of Gabriel Kaplan's "Holes and Mello-Rolls" > claims that his hit TV show, "Welcome Back, Kotter," was inspired by > this album. > > Internet Movie Database > Memorable quotes for > My Favorite Year (1982) > > Sy: We're talkin' future generations here. We're discussing morals. > Alice Miller: [for Herb] You're not qualified to discuss morals, Sy. > Sy: Up your hole with a Mello Roll, Alice! You too, Herb! > > Google Books > Loving Women: a novel of the fifties > by Pete Hamill > New York, NY: Random House > 1989 > Pg. 192: > "Up your hole with a Mell-o-roll, coppers, you ain't takin' me alive!" > > 12 February 1989, New York Times, "On Language" by William Safire, > pg. SM10: > "All my age cohorts [sic?should be "all members of my age cohort"] > fondly recall the fat cylinders of ice cream called Mello-Rolls," > writes Ruth B. Roufberg of Kendall Park, N.J. "They were wrapped in > two overlapping strips of paper, which, when pulled from opposite > directions, exposed the cylinder and neatly deposited it into the > ice-cream cone." > > Funny how so many people miss Mello-Rolls. "When you licked the ice > cream," explains Patricia Maloney Bernstein of Great Neck, L.I., "the > roll shape caused it to turn round in its cone, so as the ice cream > melted it did not run down the outside of the cone, but rather melted > within the cone, running down into the hollow in the handle." > > 31 December 1989, New York Times, "Looking Back at a Disappointing > Decade" by Marcia Byalick, pg. LI14: > For me the last decade had no memories as sweet as charlotte russes or > mello rolls. > > 18 October 1992, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 7, pg. 6, col. 2: > "And Mello Rolls in a cup with sprinkles. Mello Rolls were sort of ice > cream cones, but they weren't scoops, they were more oval-shaped." > (Review of the book When You're From Brooklyn, Everything Else is > Tokyo by Larry King with Marty Appel?ed.) > > Daily (University of Washington Student Newspaper) > January 25, 1996 > Welcome Back, Kaplan > Another show, another time > Hans Ruegamer > Daily Staff > (...) > Part of the show's living legacy is the number of catch phrases it > developed. Ranging from Lawrence Jacobs' deep-voiced "Hi, there" to > Ron Palillo's high-pitched "Oooo!" > > "Most of the stuff came from my high school," Kaplan said. "The real > phrase was 'Up your hole with a Mello roll.' A Mello roll was a like > an ice cream they sold in New York and that was a standard catch > phrase on the street. If you insulted anybody, you said something like > that or something about their parents. And that became part of the > beginnings of the show and then we got away from that." > > "We had to change it of course for television - to 'Up your nose with > a rubber hose.' And then one show the censor got upset about us saying > that and he said, 'You have to say, "Up your nose with a garden > hose."' > > "I said, 'Why,' just out of curiosity, and he said, "Well, you can do > a lot of damage to someone with a rubber hose.' They had these weird > censorship things. And after the next week they said we could say > rubber hose again. But there's one show where we say 'Up your nose > with a garden hose.'" > > BronxRoots-L > From: Mike < kombucha at ticnet.com> > Subject: Re: Mello-Roll > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 15:05:19 -0600 > > References: <20010328203751.24626.qmail at web1301.mail.yahoo.com> > Marc et-yoozal, > > The mello-roll cone was of the "waffle" variety, and not of the > "sugar-cone" variety which was crunchy. The stem of the cone had a > flat bottom instead of a point. On the top it had a rectangular > opening about 2.5 inches by about 1.25 inches which nested the > mellow-roll. The ice cream was a cylinder a bit larger than a > flashlight battery, and it had a paper wrapper with a tab that ran > along it lenghtwise. There was an art to placing the roll in the cone, > and then pulling the paper off as the roll rotated. I remember > vanilla, but am not sure if it cam in other flavors. > > It was a favorite cuss to say > "Up your nose with a garden hose, and > up your hole with a mello-roll!" > > Food of the Eighties > Shayne Genoway - May 04, 2007 > I was trying to find information about Mello-Roll ice cream with not > too much luck. Try explaining the concept to your grandchildren and it > becomes a task in futility, and much laughter on their part. They > can't grasp the concept of ice cream that came wrapped in something > that looked like the center cardboard roll on our toilet paper, with > ice cream stuffed inside. That was the only way I could think of > explaining it to them. You then had to unravel the cone around the ice > cream which sat inside a cone that was also round so the ice cream sat > neatly into the cone. Weird, isn't it, just trying to describe it. I > remember them well because my dad had a variety store at the time, and > I remember him serving them to the kids coming into the store. He > would pull a part of the paper off, and fit the exposed part of the > ice cream into the cone. When he figured it was in tight enough, he > unrolled the rest of the paper off and handed the cone to the > customer. The Mello-Roll ice cream could be handled with his hands at > all times because it was protected by this paper. It was about the > size of the inside cardboard roll of toilet paper, and that's exactly > what it looked like standing on end inside the cone. For it's time it > was convenient for the store keeper, he didn't need to worry about a > scoop, just reach in pull one out, and unwrap it. Simple, easy, and > efficient when I think about it now. It'd sure be nice if someone came > up with a picture of one from somewhere. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 22 14:43:29 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:43:29 -0400 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <760918.76765.qm@web53908.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:38 AM -0700 10/22/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >The only pronunciation and spelling I've ever known for the verb in >question are as Arnold and Wilson say. > > BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an upcoming biopic. > > JL ...which actually brings up one sorta counterexample to the first observation: in "The Times They Are a-Changing", Dylan sings Come writers and critics Who prophesize with your pen But this is only a sorta counterexample, because it arguably involves not the verb "prophesy" but a different (albeit eggcornishly formed) verb. LH > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" >Subject: Re: prophesai for prophecy >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Oct 22, 2007, at 12:49 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say >> "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". > >?? the verb is "prophesy" and is pronounced with final /aj/. (this >is the only pronunciation the OED has, and the OED has no entry for a >verb "prophecy" -- only for a noun so spelled, and pronounced with >final /i/.) > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Oct 22 15:42:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:42:45 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: <200710221226.l9MAkdUj005629@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I sit corrected, thank you all. It sounded like a mangled attempt at Latin to me. AFAIK, I've never heard the noun or verb end any way except "ee". BB Wilson Gray wrote: > According to the OED, the verb is spelled "prophesy," which, a la > Blanchette, I also pronounce [profIsai] or [prof at sai]. > > -Wilson > > On 10/22/07, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Benjamin Barrett >> Subject: prophesai for prophecy >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> In "Elizabeth: Golden Age", Cate Blanchett (Elizabeth) seems to say >> "prophesai" for the verb "prophecy". It's in the scene when she is >> speaking to the astrologer after she orders Sir Raleigh to prison. I >> don't think it's for dialect or time period effect, but simply a mistake >> that wasn't edited. >> >> The only part I caught was the last two words of her utterance, >> "prophecy again". Either earlier in her sentence or in the sentence of >> her interlocutor, prophet/prophecy (noun) or something similar occurs. >> That earlier word and/or the vowel in "again" could possibly have had an >> effect. >> >> FWIW. >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 22 16:21:42 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:21:42 -0700 Subject: prophesai for prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 7:43 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 6:38 AM -0700 10/22/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >> ... BTW, Cate is about to play the role of Bob Dylan in an >> upcoming biopic. >> >> JL > > ...which actually brings up one sorta counterexample to the first > observation: in "The Times They Are a-Changing", Dylan sings > > Come writers and critics > Who prophesize with your pen > > But this is only a sorta counterexample, because it arguably involves > not the verb "prophesy" but a different (albeit eggcornishly formed) > verb.- indeed, and separately listed in the OED's draft revision of june 2007, with cites back to 1816. i don't see an eggcorn here, only an alternative verb for this meaning, one formed more or less regularly from the noun "prophecy" (though i don't know why it's not spelled "prophecize"). the verb "prophesy" is much older, and not regularly formed. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Oct 22 17:50:33 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:50:33 -0500 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: A<12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869CE580F1@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: The longer article is: "Etymology of Yiddish Shmok" ("Sh" here = "s" with a hacek; -- The article reproduces all Comments on Etymology treatments of the term to date; individual authors are listed in the table of contents), Comments on Etymology, vol. 12, no. 11-12, March 1983, 73 pages. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Reply To: American Dialect Society > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:08 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > > The derivation of Yiddish anatomical shmuck (actually: shmok) from German Schmuck (= jewelry, decoration, embellishment) is false. I have the relevant articles in my office, but meanwhile, IIRC, Yiddish shmok derives from a Slavic word indicating a snake or snake-like creature. My bibliographical notes at home contain the following references, all from Comments on Etymology: > > 1) Gerald Cohen (title: ?), vol. 13, #5-6, Dec. 1983, pp. 12-13. > 2) J. Peter Maher (letter), vol. 13, no. 11-12, March 1984, pp. 7-9. > 3) Joseph Walfield (article title: ?), vol. 14, issues # 11-12, March 1985, p. 7. > 4). 'Yiddish "shmok" (= English "shmuck") revisited.' ----- vol. 22, #2 (Nov. 1992), pp. 20- 22. Contains: > a) Reprint of article by "Philologos" in _The Forward_, July 24, 1992: 'Snakes in the Grass.' (pp. 20-21). > b.) Joseph Wallfield: '"Shmuck" --- again.' (p.22) > > Also, I seem to remember another, longer item, on the subject--probably written by my deceased friend and colleague, Joseph Wallfield. If it's of any interest, I can check this when I'm back in my office. > > Gerald Cohen > > ________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 22 23:29:56 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:29:56 -0400 Subject: 'Islamofascism" (coined in 1990?) Message-ID: This is "Islamofascism Awareness Week," and Christopher Hitchen writes in Slate that "Islamofascism" was coined in the Independent (London) in 1990. OED agrees, and the citation is featured on a Wikipedia page. ... However, the term "Islamic fascism" was used in the 1980s, referring to the events in Iran. Shouldn't there be some note that this ("Islamic fascism") is the origin of the term ("Islamofascism")? ... ... ... (Oxford English Dictionary) Islamofascism, n. depreciative. [< ISLAMO- comb. form + FASCISM n.] The advocacy or practice of a form of Islam perceived as authoritarian, intolerant, or extremist; spec. Islamic fundamentalism regarded in this way. 1990 Independent 8 Sept. 15/8 Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say 'Islamo-fascism', is the rule rather than the exception. 2002 National Rev. (U.S.) (Nexis) 10 Apr., You cannot deny that a brand of Islam is most certainly at war with us. You can call this brand Islamofascism, radical Islam, Wahhabism, whatever you want. ... ... ... http://www.slate.com/id/2176389 fighting words: A wartime lexicon. Defending IslamofascismIt's a valid term. Here's why. By Christopher Hitchens Posted Monday, Oct. 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM ET The attempt by David Horowitz and his allies to launch "Islamofascism Awareness Week" on American campuses has been met with a variety of responses. (...) The term Islamofascism was first used in 1990 in Britain's Independent newspaper by Scottish writer Malise Ruthven, who was writing about the way in which traditional Arab dictatorships used religious appeals in order to stay in power. I didn't know about this when I employed the term "fascism with an Islamic face" to describe the attack on civil society on Sept. 11, 2001, and to ridicule those who presented the attack as some kind of liberation theology in action. "Fascism with an Islamic face" is meant to summon a dual echo of both Alexander Dubcek and Susan Sontag (if I do say so myself), and in any case, it can't be used for everyday polemical purposes, so the question remains: Does Bin Ladenism or Salafism or whatever we agree to call it have anything in common with fascism? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism Islamofascism is a controversial neologism suggesting an association of the ideological or operational characteristics of certain modern Islamist movements with European fascist movements of the early 20th century, neofascist movements, or totalitarianism. The word is included in the New Oxford American Dictionary, defining it as "a controversial term equating some modern Islamic movements with the European fascist movements of the early twentieth century". Critics of the term argue that associating the religion of Islam with fascism is offensive and inaccurate. Origins and usage Although Islamofascism is usually a reference to Islamism rather than Islam in general, comparisons have been made between fascism and Islam, as far back as 1937, when the German Catholic emigr? Edgar Alexander compared Nazism with "Mohammedanism" [citation needed], and again, in 1939, when psychologist Carl Jung said about Adolf Hitler, "he is like Mohammed. The emotion in Germany is Islamic, warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with a wild god."[1] According to Roger Scruton of the Wall Street Journal, the term was introduced by the French historian Maxime Rodinson to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978. Scruton claims that Rodinson "was a Marxist, who described as 'fascist' any movement of which he disapproved", but credits him with inventing a "convenient way of announcing that you are not against Islam but only against its perversion by the terrorists." [2]. In 1990 Malise Ruthven wrote, in The Independent: "Nevertheless there is what might be called a political problem affecting the Muslim world. In contrast to the heirs of some other non-Western traditions, including Hinduism, Shintoism and Buddhism, Islamic societies seem to have found it particularly hard to institutionalise divergences politically: authoritarian government, not to say Islamo-fascism, is the rule rather than the exception from Morocco to Pakistan." [3] Albert Scardino of the The Guardian attributes the term to an article by Muslim scholar Khalid Duran in the Washington Times, where he used it to describe the push by some Islamist clerics to "impose religious orthodoxy on the state and the citizenry".[4] The related term, Islamic fascism, was adopted by journalists including Stephen Schwartz[5] and Christopher Hitchens,[6] who intended it to refer to Islamist extremists, including terrorist groups such as al Qaeda, although he more often tends to use the phrases "theocratic fascism" or "fascism with an Islamic face" (a play on Susan Sontag's phrase "fascism with a human face", referring to the declaration of martial law in Poland in 1981). [7] ... ... ... (GOOGLE NEWS) MUBARAK'S PLEA Boston Globe $2.95 - Boston Globe - NewsBank - Mar 15, 1985 They all look on in horror as The Islamic fascism spawned by The Ayatollah Khomeini takes root in Lebanon. While Mubarak was visiting Washington, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Modern Writings on Islam and Muslims in India - Page 71 by Iqtidar Husain Siddiqui - 1974 - 112 pages ... dominance of the Muslim League and then became the emotional centre of Pakistan; most of the students and the staff members supported Islamic fascism. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Human Context: Le Domaine Humain. Der Mensch und Seine Welt. Hombre Y ... - Page 31 1975 ... social control: education is reduced to conditioning, except in Islamic fascism, which elevates traditional religious teaching to a dominant position, ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Cry for My Revolution, Iran - Page 360 by Manoucher Parvin - History - 1987 - 345 pages They perceive Islamic fascism, this monstrous reality, as a nightmare that will pass, but the mullahs consider it a dream coming true that will last forever ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Sadat and After: Struggles for Egypt's Political Soul - Page 126 by Raymond William Baker - Political Science - 1990 ... to capitalize on the January disturbances to organize a revolutionary strike would probably backfire to the ultimate advantage of an Islamic fascism. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Oct 23 01:20:58 2007 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:20:58 -0400 Subject: an old joke In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An article in the NYTimes City section of a couple of Sundays ago gave the old joke that New York will be a fine city, if they ever get it finished, and credited it to O Henry. I had posted the origin of this joke here years ago, (under this same heading, if I recall), and wrote the editor with the full text of the first version. This letter was published this past Sunday. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/opinion/nyregionopinions/l21city.html?_r=1&oref=slogin By the way: I didn't find this quotation in The Yale Dictionary of Quotes, and I think that Fred muffed a popup when he did not include it: it's a living quotation, it's always misattributed, and the true author is known. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From debaron at UIUC.EDU Tue Oct 23 04:36:19 2007 From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 23:36:19 -0500 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business Message-ID: There's a new post on the Web of Language: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business Bans on swearing in college sports have been making headlines in the last year or two as part of a concerted effort to enforce good sportsmanship among players and fans alike, both toward the opposing team and toward the refs, but a new study coming out of the University of East Anglia?s Norwich Business School reports that, while swearing may cost you the game, on the plus side it does build team spirit. Their research further suggests that turning the air blue on a regular basis may actually be good for business. The legendary American lawyer Clarence Darrow reportedly told one interviewer, ?I don?t swear just for the hell of it? (at least the Darrow character in Inherit the Wind says this). Now two business scholars, Yehuda Baruch and Stuart Jenkins, report in a recent issue of the Leadership and Organization Development Journal (vol. 28 [2007], pp. 492-507), that regular swearing at work creates a sense of community and reinforces social relationships. . . . Read the rest of this post on the Web of Language www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage Dennis Baron Professor of English and Linguistics Department of English University of Illinois 608 S. Wright St. Urbana, IL 61801 office: 217-244-0568 fax: 217-333-4321 www.uiuc.edu/goto/debaron read the Web of Language: www.uiuc.edu/goto/weboflanguage ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 06:23:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:23:24 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) Message-ID: Cna someone read the word after "hamburger" and before "sandwiches of all kinds" in the 1886 Washington Brewery ads in the Butte (MT) Daily Miner on NewspaperArchive? ... I thought the word was "hamburger eels," but I just can't read it. ... ... ... 2 January 1886, Butte (MT) Daily Miner, pg. 3, col. 4: WASHINGTON BREWERY, East Park, Street. H. H. HORST, Prop. Caviar, Russian Sardelles, Swiss Cheese, Limberger Cheese, Pigs Feet, Hamburger Eola. SANDWICHES OF ALL KINDS! ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Butte Daily Miner, The Hamburger Eels SANDWICHES Imported and Domestic LETSON TORCE JewelerS SILVER Sliver ware Optical eto LOWEST Fine Watch saa a Street to CITY AND COUNTY Bodies Washed Dressed and Embalmed PACIFIC BEER HALL Park Street near Montana The Celebrated St Louis Beer on A il and Foreign Beers by the or Keg Prop Lavell BUTTE Mont Idaho WINDSOR STABLES EAST Park Street SALE PEED PHAETONS AND second to none m tbc Boarded the lay cr Homes Bought ird and Second band Cash Advanced on BucKies Saturday, January 09, 1886 Butte, Montana ... ... (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE) Butte Daily Miner, The Hamburger Sols SANDWICHES OF SLI Imported and Domestic SAINT LOUIS BEER HALL The Finest BEER HALL in the City City and County UNDERTAKER PURE HIGHLY JOSEPH BURNETT CO BOSTON MAM For Sale by H A Butte City Montana CO DEALERS IN- Groceries Teas Provisions and LIQUORS CIGARS AND TOBACCOS East Park St Cor Arizona BUTTE CITY Mont ED WHITEHEAD West Park Street Butte City Montana Will Buy or Soil anything In the line of Furniture Stoves Mining Tools CARPENTER TOOLS ETC Wes Tuesday, June 08, 1886 Butte, Montana ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Oct 23 06:46:34 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:46:34 -0400 Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I thought the word was "hamburger eels," but I just can't read it. Reckon it's just "Hamburger eels", sure enough. Searching N'archive for <<"hamburger eels">> turns up other, more legible examples. Eels from Hamburg, or maybe eels in the Hamburg style? -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.6/1086 - Release Date: 10/22/2007 7:57 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Oct 23 07:03:45 2007 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Barry A. Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:03:45 EDT Subject: "Hamburger" (illegible) in Butte Daily Miner (1886) Message-ID: Sorry about that. It's "hamburger eels." But how about these cites for early hamburger and cheeseburger sandwiches? ... ... ... 21 May 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, "Chas. Howard's Remarkable Success," pg. 2, col. 2: An adjunct to the bar is the lunch counter where at any hour steak sandwiches, genuine turtle soup, Frankfurter sausages, pork and beans, Hamburger steak, sweet breads, imported sardines, Roquefort cheese, cold roast beef, cold beef tongue, shrimp salad, lobster salad, and in fact anything hot or cold that the fancy can suggest or appetite crave can be had at a moment's notice. ... ... 17 June 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: The Magnolia Saloon and Restaurant 208 High Street. Philip Stepp, Proprietor. Has been newly remodeled and fitted up in first-class style. I have also placed in my room A New Improved Kahn & Bro. Gas Stove and Lunch Counter. Where you can now obtain at any hour all kinds of Sandwiches, Hamburger Sausage, Spring Chicken, Turtle Soup, Sardines, Cheese, Ham Boston Baked Beans, Etc., cooked to order on short notice. ... ... 10 November 1905, Marshall (MI) Expounder, pg. 6, col. 4: Before he went to bed he had three bottles of beer, several hamburger sandwiches with onions, cheese, rye bread and finished off with a particularly bad cigar. (...) --Emporia, Kan. Gazette. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gingi at POBOX.COM Tue Oct 23 12:24:17 2007 From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:24:17 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and this > spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > "titbit". > > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > reason. > Anyone know why we USAians are different? -- -- Rachel Sommer As the Italian proverb says: L'aritmetica non ? opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 23 11:42:40 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:42:40 -0400 Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 Message-ID: Mark Twain and others attributed the saying about three kinds of lies--lies, damned lies, and statistics--to Benjamin Disraeli; but this has not been found in any of his works; nor has it been found in any usage by anyone as early as his lifetime. And there are additional reasons to doubt that attribution and the presentation of it in Yale Book of Quotations.* In January 1892 Robert Giffen gave a lecture that was printed in June 1892 and also in 1893 in a conference proceedings published in Hobart, Tasmania (p.463 in Reports of the ... meeting, ANZAAS). Giffen said that an older saying about three types of witnesses, liars, damned (he said outrageous) liars, and experts had "lately been adapted" to throw dirt on statistics. If he was correct, and if "lately" means within the last few years, then it began after the death of Disraeli (in 1881). The "liar" saying (sometimes with slight variations, e.g. scientists instead of experts) is attested in X Club notes of Thomas Henry Huxley on Dec. 5 1885 (details in the archives) and later, e.g., in the Times, Mar. 9, 1891, p. 12. In addition to Disraeli, the phrase has been attributed to Walter Bagehot (in 1894 and often in later years; details in the archive); Leonard Courtney; Arthur Balfour; and others (and, of course, someone not well known should not be a priori excluded). E.g. one Balfour attribution appears in the Washington Post Oct. 29, 1901, p.19: London Gossip.(by Lew Rosen) ...Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics." The main new observation here is a new 1892 quote. Though not the last word on the subject, it may be a helpful step. POLITICS AND SOCIETY. The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), June 29, 1892; Issue 16920 (3945 words) Mr. Arthur Balfour is reverting to his old habits of wild and reckless assertions. Last night he made what his friends would doubtless call a stinging speech. He began by a contemptuous reference to his opponent, Professor Monro; and in dealing with the statistics of the latter had the good taste to say that there were three kinds of unveracity--namely, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Then, having got his hand in, the ex-Chief Secretary [of Ireland] began his old game of denying every accusation against his Irish administration. He denied that the freedom of the Press or the right of public meeting was interfered with under the Crimes Act of 1887!.... Balfour earlier was author of A defence of philosophic doubt; being an essay on the foundations of belief (1879), and later Prime Minister (1902-1905), and author of the Balfour Declaration (1917). He died in 1930. It might be worth searching for an earlier use of the phrase by him (or Bagehot or Courtney or another). Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *In general I think the Yale Book of Quotations is very good. Exceptions to this view include its inadequate index and cross referencing system and its analysis of this phrase. The 1895 Leonard Courtney citation is misinterpreted there (as explained in the archive; it refers to the future, i.e., to a statesman long after the death of Disraeli, etc.). I contributed that citation, unacknowledged in YBQ, unlike in Ralph Keyes, The Quote Verifier. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 12:52:39 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:52:39 -0400 Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 In-Reply-To: <20071023074240.u4nnnapr0sg44koc@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Gee, Stephen, according to your review of The Yale Book of Quotations on Amazon, the main flaw of the book seems to be its failure to include the Montagnards theory of the origin of the phrase "whole nine yards." In any case, I appreciate the continued good information you are unearthing about "lies, damned lies, and statistics" and I will certainly reevaluate my discussion of the Disraeli theory in the next edition. What research method yielded the Leeds Mercury reference? Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:42 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "...lies and statistics" Arthur Balfour 1892 Mark Twain and others attributed the saying about three kinds of lies--lies, damned lies, and statistics--to Benjamin Disraeli; but this has not been found in any of his works; nor has it been found in any usage by anyone as early as his lifetime. And there are additional reasons to doubt that attribution and the presentation of it in Yale Book of Quotations.* In January 1892 Robert Giffen gave a lecture that was printed in June 1892 and also in 1893 in a conference proceedings published in Hobart, Tasmania (p.463 in Reports of the ... meeting, ANZAAS). Giffen said that an older saying about three types of witnesses, liars, damned (he said outrageous) liars, and experts had "lately been adapted" to throw dirt on statistics. If he was correct, and if "lately" means within the last few years, then it began after the death of Disraeli (in 1881). The "liar" saying (sometimes with slight variations, e.g. scientists instead of experts) is attested in X Club notes of Thomas Henry Huxley on Dec. 5 1885 (details in the archives) and later, e.g., in the Times, Mar. 9, 1891, p. 12. In addition to Disraeli, the phrase has been attributed to Walter Bagehot (in 1894 and often in later years; details in the archive); Leonard Courtney; Arthur Balfour; and others (and, of course, someone not well known should not be a priori excluded). E.g. one Balfour attribution appears in the Washington Post Oct. 29, 1901, p.19: London Gossip.(by Lew Rosen) ...Mr. Arthur James Balfour, leader of the Conservatives of the House of Commons, in one of his facetious moods once designated political newspaper comment as consisting of lies, damned lies, and statistics." The main new observation here is a new 1892 quote. Though not the last word on the subject, it may be a helpful step. POLITICS AND SOCIETY. The Leeds Mercury (Leeds, England), June 29, 1892; Issue 16920 (3945 words) Mr. Arthur Balfour is reverting to his old habits of wild and reckless assertions. Last night he made what his friends would doubtless call a stinging speech. He began by a contemptuous reference to his opponent, Professor Monro; and in dealing with the statistics of the latter had the good taste to say that there were three kinds of unveracity--namely, lies, damned lies, and statistics. Then, having got his hand in, the ex-Chief Secretary [of Ireland] began his old game of denying every accusation against his Irish administration. He denied that the freedom of the Press or the right of public meeting was interfered with under the Crimes Act of 1887!.... Balfour earlier was author of A defence of philosophic doubt; being an essay on the foundations of belief (1879), and later Prime Minister (1902-1905), and author of the Balfour Declaration (1917). He died in 1930. It might be worth searching for an earlier use of the phrase by him (or Bagehot or Courtney or another). Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson *In general I think the Yale Book of Quotations is very good. Exceptions to this view include its inadequate index and cross referencing system and its analysis of this phrase. The 1895 Leonard Courtney citation is misinterpreted there (as explained in the archive; it refers to the future, i.e., to a statesman long after the death of Disraeli, etc.). I contributed that citation, unacknowledged in YBQ, unlike in Ralph Keyes, The Quote Verifier. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From medievalist at W-STS.COM Tue Oct 23 13:26:43 2007 From: medievalist at W-STS.COM (Amy West) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:26:43 -0400 Subject: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) In-Reply-To: <200710220400.l9M37YTJ024994@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Notionally related is "Beutel" meaning "bag, purse" or "scrotum." It's significant in the 1500s "novel" Fortunatus: the protagonist is given a bottomless bag of money by a hag (I think) and that's a key plot element. ---Amy West >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:35:20 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray >Subject: Re: Yiddish in UK English (anecdotal) > >>From my experience in the the military, I can testify that, in >colloquial German, too, and not only in Yiddish, "schmuck" means >"penis," as in, e.g. "Der Schmuck ist starr," a phrase that often fell >trippingly from the lips of b-girls I've read somewhere or other that >the semantic point is that the male genitalia "decorate" or >"compliment" or "complement" or "complete" their bearer's manhood or >manliness or something along those lines. I used to vaguely wonder >whether one could buy decorative representations of the penis at a >Schmueckerei. > >-Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 13:50:43 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 06:50:43 -0700 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2007, at 9:36 PM, Dennis Baron wrote: > There's a new post on the > Web of Language: > > WTF? Swearing at work is good for business > > Bans on swearing in college sports have been making headlines in > the last year or two as part of a concerted effort to enforce good > sportsmanship among players and fans alike, both toward the > opposing team and toward the refs, but a new study coming out of > the University of East Anglia?s Norwich Business School reports > that, while swearing may cost you the game, on the plus side it > does build team spirit. Their research further suggests that > turning the air blue on a regular basis may actually be good for > business. see the very critical discussion of this "study" by Mark Liberman on Language Log: ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete other study: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html (with, as a bonus, a wonderful piece of science-news satire from The Onion) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 13:54:05 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:54:05 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <3c1dab590710230524i21361f35k89428afce7f81be8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain >> without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form >> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or "assimilation at a distance", which amounts here to the same result LH >, and this >> spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth >> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, >> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing >> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has >> *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone >> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used >> "titbit". >> >> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was >> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", >> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". >> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the >> reason. >> > >Anyone know why we USAians are different? > >-- >-- >Rachel Sommer >As the Italian proverb says: >L'aritmetica non ? opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Tue Oct 23 14:38:09 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:38:09 -0400 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: <200710231350.l9NAl4tW015524@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The various workplaces of Tony Soprano and associates do, indeed, feature a lot of swearing -- both social and annoyance types. There's also a certain amount of resulting _social cohesion_ and _stress release_ and, to one or another degree, a sense of _group well-being__. But there have been a significant number of individuals who undoubtedly would, if they could, question the _individual well-being_ finding -- but they can't, given that they're dead. I'd imagine their response to this particular finding would be, quite simple, WTF?????? (the other) doug ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete other study: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 14:43:20 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:43:20 -0400 Subject: WTF? Swearing at work is good for business In-Reply-To: <001801c81582$55054680$04fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: At 10:38 AM -0400 10/23/07, Doug Harris wrote: >The various workplaces of Tony Soprano and associates do, indeed, feature >a lot of swearing -- both social and annoyance types. There's also a certain >amount of resulting _social cohesion_ and _stress release_ and, to one or >another degree, a sense of _group well-being__. But there have been a >significant number of individuals who undoubtedly would, if they could, >question the _individual well-being_ finding -- but they can't, given that >they're dead. I'd imagine their response to this particular finding would >be, quite simple, WTF?????? >(the other) doug Well, as the Onion "study" would put it, the individuals in question did have a blast. LH > > ML, 10/22/07: We eventually wound up walking into this complete >other study: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005046.html > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 23 15:27:20 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:27:20 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED suggests from tit (n3), with the connotation of "small" (and agrees hat "tid-bit" is earlier). Joel At 10/23/2007 09:54 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: >>David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >>(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): >> >>The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain >>> without access to a copy of the Oxford >>> English Dictionary, the original form >>> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >>> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >>> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover > >to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or >"assimilation at a distance", which amounts here >to the same result > >LH > >>, and this >>> spelling and pronunciation is now the most >>> common in the UK and Commonwealth >>> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an >>> alternative in use in the USA, >>> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing >>> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th >>> century. It's not that the US has >>> *preserved* the original spelling, but that >>> they have for some reason *gone >>> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used >>> "titbit". >>> >>> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was >>> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", >>> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". >>> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the >>> reason. >> >>Anyone know why we USAians are different? >> >>-- >>-- >>Rachel Sommer >>As the Italian proverb says: >>L'aritmetica non ? opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 15:39:59 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:39:59 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <200710231354.l9NAn2kh016012@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I hold the assimilation theory to account for American "tidbit" and the dissimilation theory to account for General-English "titmouse." Unless, of course, it has something to do with Tommy Tittlemouse. -Wilson On 10/23/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: tidbit versus titbit? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8:24 AM -0400 10/23/07, Rachel Sommer wrote: > >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic > > >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > > > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > > >> without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the original form > >> was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > >> and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > >> this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover > > to achieve the rhymed syllables, I assume, or > "assimilation at a distance", which amounts here > to the same result > > LH > > >, and this > >> spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and Commonwealth > >> nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > >> although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > >> in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that the US has > >> *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > >> back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > >> "titbit". > >> > >> There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > >> prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > >> changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > >> However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > >> reason. > >> > > > >Anyone know why we USAians are different? > > > >-- > >-- > >Rachel Sommer > >As the Italian proverb says: > >L'aritmetica non ? opinione (arithmetic is not an opinion). > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 23 16:12:57 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:12:57 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: Might the form "tidbit" have influenced the construction of the currently common locution "a tad bit of (something)"--which I believe we discussed several weeks or months ago? --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Oct 23 17:05:12 2007 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:05:12 EDT Subject: Hamburger/Steakburger Sandwich, Cheeseburger Message-ID: I don't see "cheeseburger" here--and I only see "hamburger sandwich" from 1905." What is the earliest "steakburger" that you have found? The earliestr "steakburger sandwich"? In a message dated 10/23/07 3:04:19 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > Sorry about that. It's "hamburger eels." But how about these cites for? > early > hamburger and cheeseburger sandwiches? > ... > ... > ... > 21 May 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, "Chas. Howard's Remarkable > Success," pg. 2, col. 2: > An adjunct to the bar is the lunch counter where at any hour steak > sandwiches, genuine turtle soup, Frankfurter sausages, pork and beans, > Hamburger > steak, sweet breads, imported sardines, Roquefort cheese, cold roast beef, > cold > beef tongue, shrimp salad, lobster salad, and in fact anything hot or cold > that > the fancy can suggest or appetite crave can be had at a moment's notice. > ... > ... > 17 June 1890, Hamilton (OH) Daily Democrat, pg. 3, col. 4 ad: > The Magnolia Saloon and Restaurant > 208 High Street. Philip Stepp, Proprietor. > Has been newly remodeled and fitted up in first-class style. I have also > placed in my room > A New Improved Kahn & Bro. Gas Stove and Lunch Counter. > Where you can now obtain at any hour all kinds of Sandwiches,? Hamburger > Sausage, Spring Chicken, Turtle Soup, Sardines, Cheese, Ham > Boston Baked Beans, Etc., cooked to order on short notice. > ... > ... > 10 November 1905, Marshall (MI) Expounder, pg. 6, col. 4: > Before he went to bed he had three bottles of beer, several hamburger > sandwiches with onions, cheese, rye bread and finished off with a > particularly? bad > cigar. (...) --Emporia, Kan. Gazette. > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 20:38:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:38:24 -0400 Subject: Fry Sauce (UT) (O.T.: my website doesn't work?) Message-ID: "Fry Sauce" (a special sauce for french fries--that of course come from Paris, Texas) is an important regional cuisine (Utah) that is not in DARE. It's long been said that "fry sauce" was invented by Utah's Arctic Circle restaurants, but a recent Sept. 4, 2007 blog post claims the honor for Stan's Diner in Provo. ... My website seems to cut off over half the post. Every day, another goddamn crisis. I'm gonna clear fifteen cents on this post. ... ... ... Fry sauce (sauce for french fries) is a popular state dish or Utah, but is now served in Oregon and other Western states. A simple recipe is one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. The Arctic Circle fast food restaurant chain is said to have invented fry sauce in 1948 (according to Wikipedia). In the 1940s, the first "Arctic Circle" restaurant in Salt Lake City was called the "Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q," after founder Don Carlos Edwards. The Arctic Circle restaurant trademarked fry sauce ("a dipping sauce for french fries") from April 1956. A September 4, 2007 post (below) claims that Stan's Dine in Provo, UT first invented fry sauce, and that the Arctic Circle borrowed the recipe. Wikipedia: Fry Sauce Fry sauce is a regional condiment served with french fries. It is usually a simple combination of one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. When spices and other flavorings are added, it is similar to?but thicker and smoother than?traditional Russian dressing and Thousand Island dressing. Fry sauce is commonly found in restaurants in Utah, much of Idaho, eastern Washington and rural Oregon, but is also commonly found in supermarkets across the country, as well as available by mail-order. Occasionally other ingredients such as barbecue sauce are substituted for ketchup. The Utah-based Arctic Circle restaurant chain claims to have invented fry sauce around 1948. Arctic Circle serves it in its restaurants in the western United States. Many other fast-food restaurants and family restaurants in the region, such as Carl's Jr, Crown Burgers, Apollo Burger and Hires Big H, offer their own versions of the sauce. Until 1999, Utah franchise locations of McDonald's also carried fry sauce. The chain stopped stocking the condiment because of the high waste it produced: because of its mayonnaise content, the sauce spoils after a single day if left unrefrigerated. Nevertheless, many other national fast food restaurants in Utah and nearby states serve fry sauce. Among the most popular souvenir pins during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were ones that depicted fry sauce. Originally sold for US$7.50, these pins became valued at over $60 before the Olympic games started. Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce Arctic Circle has long been an innovator in fast foods, but our Original Fry Sauce?a tasty, tangy mixture of tomato concentrate, lemon juice, eggs, and a whole bunch of other ingredients?stands out as the most imitated, and also the least duplicated. Ever since we invented fry sauce more than 50 years ago, we've carefully guarded the original secret recipe. There is only one original fry sauce and Arctic Circle has it. But nowadays, many people are dipping their fries (and lots of other foods, for that matter) into Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce outside our restaurants. Not because one of our competitors has cracked our secret recipe, but because we now have 12-ounce bottles available for purchase in our stores. And that means you can take the Original home with you! So if you're hankering for some doggoned delicious dipping, visit your nearest Arctic Circle and take home the only fry sauce that's been featured on national television, Olympic pins, and more. Original Fry Sauce, exclusive to Arctic Circle?where the good stuff is! About.com: Salt Lake City, UT Fry Sauce >From Theresa Husarik One of Utah's Unique Culinary Treasures (...) The basic recipe 1 part ketchup 2 parts mayonnaise Mix together until thoroughly blended. Other options: Substitute barbecue sauce for ketchup. Use buttermilk or half & half to thin the sauce. Pickle juice (either dill or sweet) for a little zing (rumor has it the official recipe includes pickle juice) Chopped pickles minced very tiny, so the sauce is a little chunky (this makes the sauce look suspiciously like thousand island dressing) Seasoning salt Horseradish Garlic Whatever exotic spices you have on your shelf -- go ahead, experiment 15 November 1957, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. B11, col. 1 ad: 15th Birthday Anniversary Special at DON CARLOS BAR-BE-Q (...) Hamburgers With Fry's and Special Sauce 20 August 1959, Denton (TX) Record-Chronicle, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 1-2: A Twin Delight For Teens: French Fries 'N Pizza Sauce 16 March 1961, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 14C, col. 1 ad: FRENCH FRIES With Special Arctic Circle Sauce 10c 10 September 1961, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. 51 ad: Start with a flavorful Russian Dressing -- made with equal parts creamy Best Foods Real Mayonnaise and zesty Heinz Ketchup. 16 May 1962, Fort Pierce (FL) News Tribune, "Shrimp Appetizers With Pink Sauce, pg. 9, col. 1: PINK SAUCE 1 cup mayonnaise 1/2 cup sour cream 1/4 cup catsup 1 tablespoon lemon juice 1/8 teaspoon salt snipped fresh or frozen chive or fresh dill Combine ingredients and mix well, adding chives or fresh dill to taste. If desired, omit chives or dill and stir in 1/2 teaspoon curry powder. Chill thoroughly before serving. Makes 1 3/4 cups sauce. 7 September 1962, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 9A, col. 7 ad: FRIES With Arctic Circle Sauce...10c 15 February 1963, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 7A, col. 3: ARCTIC CIRCLE FRENCH FRIES With Sauce...10c 8 August 1964, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 10, col. 5 ad: French Fry Sauce (Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q -- ed.) Steve and Laurel Piccolo's Blog Tuesday, September 04, 2007 The Origins of Fry Sauce My friend Barry (originally from Detroit) asked me what is unique about Utah and what he should do to experience the state to its fullest. The first thought that came to mind was that he should try fry sauce, a combination of ketchup, mayonaisse and sometimes additional ingredients used as a dipping sauce for french fries. See if you can follow this. Last week I met Laurel's maternal grandmother's former husband's oldest son, Ron Taylor. (Laurel's grandmother passed away a few years ago.) He claims (and I believe him) to have invented fry sauce. How cool is that!? His father is Stan, who used to own Stan's Diner on 900 East in Provo, Utah. He said it came about as a natural evolution of combining ketchup and mayonaisse as a burger condiment, and it just grew in popularity. He said someone from Arctic Circle (a Utah-based burger chain) later asked his permission to use the recipe. Arctic Circle and other chains have popularized it across the intermountain west. Apparently controversy surrounds this topic. Arctic Circle (the former management long gone) now claims to have invented fry sauce on their Web site. It's hard to know who is the true originator. Maybe they both can claim it. I believe Ron first introduced the basic combination of ketchup and mayo and that Arctic Circle later perfected it by adding additional ingredients (which they say are part of a secret recipe). The articles listed at the bottom of this post mention some interesting tidbits. For example, the Deseret News article claims more fry sauce is now consumed in Oregon than in Utah. (So maybe Barry, who now lives near Portland, won't have to travel so far to get his fill.) If you have any additional insight, please post a comment here and let us know. I think we should spread the word and honor Ron for this invention that changed the world for the better. :) (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: FAST FOOD RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19520600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19520600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73734717 Filing Date June 16, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 15, 1988 Registration Number 1524008 Registration Date February 7, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) QUAKER STATE MINIT-LUBE, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1385 WEST 2200 SOUTH SALT LAKE CITY UTAH 84119 (LAST LISTED OWNER) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION Assignee of DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South, Ste. 200 PO Box 339 Midvale UTAH 84047 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record FREDERICK B. ZIESENHEIM Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: A dipping sauce for french fries. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78489185 Filing Date September 24, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South #200 Midvale UTAH 84047 Prior Registrations 1524008;1529011 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "original fry sauce" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date May 4, 2006 (Trademark) Word Mark ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: DIPPING SAUCE FOR FRENCH FRIES. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75492665 Filing Date May 28, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) ARCTIC CIRCLE RESTAURANTS, INC CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 WEST 7200 SOUTH, SUITE 200 PO BOX 339 MIDVALE UTAH 84047 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 19, 1999 (Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FRY SUPER SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20021023. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20021023 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76375891 Filing Date February 27, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Supplemental Register Date November 4, 2002 Registration Number 2696858 Registration Date March 11, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH 8170 South Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record JOHN C. STRINGHAM Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register SUPPLEMENTAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark HIRES BIG H FAMOUS HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20051201. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051201 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETS-1 H A single letter, multiples of a single letter or in combination with a design NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks Serial Number 78932156 Filing Date July 18, 2006 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition June 12, 2007 Registration Number 3286306 Registration Date August 28, 2007 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH Suite 210 8160 Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record John C. Stringham Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 23 20:59:59 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:59:59 -0400 Subject: Fry Sauce (corrected) Message-ID: Sorry about that. I see I used ' for " in the html code. ... My eyesight and typing and everything else are all shot. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/fry_sauce_french_fry_sauce_french_fries_sauce/ ... Entry from October 23, 2007 Fry Sauce (French Fry Sauce; French Fries Sauce) Fry sauce (sauce for french fries) is a popular state dish or Utah, but is now served in Oregon and other Western states. A simple recipe is one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. The Arctic Circle fast food restaurant chain is said to have invented fry sauce in 1948 (according to Wikipedia). In the 1940s, the first "Arctic Circle" restaurant in Salt Lake City was called the "Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q," after founder Don Carlos Edwards. The Arctic Circle restaurant trademarked fry sauce ("a dipping sauce for french fries") from April 1956. A September 4, 2007 post (below) claims that Stan's Diner in Provo, UT first invented fry sauce, and that the Arctic Circle borrowed the recipe. Wikipedia: Fry Sauce Fry sauce is a regional condiment served with french fries. It is usually a simple combination of one part ketchup and two parts mayonnaise. When spices and other flavorings are added, it is similar to?but thicker and smoother than?traditional Russian dressing and Thousand Island dressing. Fry sauce is commonly found in restaurants in Utah, much of Idaho, eastern Washington and rural Oregon, but is also commonly found in supermarkets across the country, as well as available by mail-order. Occasionally other ingredients such as barbecue sauce are substituted for ketchup. The Utah-based Arctic Circle restaurant chain claims to have invented fry sauce around 1948. Arctic Circle serves it in its restaurants in the western United States. Many other fast-food restaurants and family restaurants in the region, such as Carl's Jr, Crown Burgers, Apollo Burger and Hires Big H, offer their own versions of the sauce. Until 1999, Utah franchise locations of McDonald's also carried fry sauce. The chain stopped stocking the condiment because of the high waste it produced: because of its mayonnaise content, the sauce spoils after a single day if left unrefrigerated. Nevertheless, many other national fast food restaurants in Utah and nearby states serve fry sauce. Among the most popular souvenir pins during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City were ones that depicted fry sauce. Originally sold for US$7.50, these pins became valued at over $60 before the Olympic games started. Arctic Circle History Back in 1924, an inventive and entrepreneurial young man named Don Carlos Edwards put up a tiny refreshment stand during a Pioneer Day celebration in a small Northern Utah town. Although he didn't know it then, that stand was the beginning of a fast food icon that now spans the Western United States. By 1941, Edwards' little stand in a small rural town had evolved into Don Carlos Bar-B-Q in Salt Lake City. Nine years later, he opened his second restaurant in Salt Lake, which he called Arctic Circle. This new restaurant featured numerous original family recipes that were as tasty as they were unique. Soon after the opening in 1950, long lines of people were waiting for their chance to taste standout menu items like "Brown Toppers" and "Ranch Burgers." In those early years, Edwards continued to invent new foods and options. Fry sauce and kid's meals, for example, are Arctic Circle originals. Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce Arctic Circle has long been an innovator in fast foods, but our Original Fry Sauce?a tasty, tangy mixture of tomato concentrate, lemon juice, eggs, and a whole bunch of other ingredients?stands out as the most imitated, and also the least duplicated. Ever since we invented fry sauce more than 50 years ago, we've carefully guarded the original secret recipe. There is only one original fry sauce and Arctic Circle has it. But nowadays, many people are dipping their fries (and lots of other foods, for that matter) into Arctic Circle Original Fry Sauce outside our restaurants. Not because one of our competitors has cracked our secret recipe, but because we now have 12-ounce bottles available for purchase in our stores. And that means you can take the Original home with you! So if you're hankering for some doggoned delicious dipping, visit your nearest Arctic Circle and take home the only fry sauce that's been featured on national television, Olympic pins, and more. Original Fry Sauce, exclusive to Arctic Circle?where the good stuff is! About.com: Salt Lake City, UT Fry Sauce >From Theresa Husarik One of Utah's Unique Culinary Treasures (...) The basic recipe 1 part ketchup 2 parts mayonnaise Mix together until thoroughly blended. Other options: Substitute barbecue sauce for ketchup. Use buttermilk or half & half to thin the sauce. Pickle juice (either dill or sweet) for a little zing (rumor has it the official recipe includes pickle juice) Chopped pickles minced very tiny, so the sauce is a little chunky (this makes the sauce look suspiciously like thousand island dressing) Seasoning salt Horseradish Garlic Whatever exotic spices you have on your shelf?go ahead, experiment 15 November 1957, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. B11, col. 1 ad: 15th Birthday Anniversary Special at DON CARLOS BAR-BE-Q (...) Hamburgers With Fry's and Special Sauce 20 August 1959, Denton (TX) Record-Chronicle, section 2, pg. 7, cols. 1-2: A Twin Delight For Teens: French Fries 'N Pizza Sauce 16 March 1961, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 14C, col. 1 ad: FRENCH FRIES With Special Arctic Circle Sauce 10c 10 September 1961, Idaho Falls (ID) Post-Register, pg. 51 ad: Start with a flavorful Russian Dressing?made with equal parts creamy Best Foods Real Mayonnaise and zesty Heinz Ketchup. 16 May 1962, Fort Pierce (FL) News Tribune, "Shrimp Appetizers With Pink Sauce, pg. 9, col. 1: PINK SAUCE 1 cup mayonnaise 1/2 cup sour cream 1/4 cup catsup 1 tablespoon lemon juice 1/8 teaspoon salt snipped fresh or frozen chive or fresh dill Combine ingredients and mix well, adding chives or fresh dill to taste. If desired, omit chives or dill and stir in 1/2 teaspoon curry powder. Chill thoroughly before serving. Makes 1 3/4 cups sauce. 7 September 1962, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 9A, col. 7 ad: FRIES With Arctic Circle Sauce...10c 15 February 1963, Ogden (UT) Standard-Examiner, pg. 7A, col. 3: ARCTIC CIRCLE FRENCH FRIES With Sauce...10c 8 August 1964, Salt Lake Tribune (Salt Lake City, UT), pg. 10, col. 5 ad: French Fry Sauce (Don Carlos Bar-Be-Q?ed.) Steve and Laurel Piccolo's Blog Tuesday, September 04, 2007 The Origins of Fry Sauce My friend Barry (originally from Detroit) asked me what is unique about Utah and what he should do to experience the state to its fullest. The first thought that came to mind was that he should try fry sauce, a combination of ketchup, mayonaisse and sometimes additional ingredients used as a dipping sauce for french fries. See if you can follow this. Last week I met Laurel's maternal grandmother's former husband's oldest son, Ron Taylor. (Laurel's grandmother passed away a few years ago.) He claims (and I believe him) to have invented fry sauce. How cool is that!? His father is Stan, who used to own Stan's Diner on 900 East in Provo, Utah. He said it came about as a natural evolution of combining ketchup and mayonaisse as a burger condiment, and it just grew in popularity. He said someone from Arctic Circle (a Utah-based burger chain) later asked his permission to use the recipe. Arctic Circle and other chains have popularized it across the intermountain west. Apparently controversy surrounds this topic. Arctic Circle (the former management long gone) now claims to have invented fry sauce on their Web site. It's hard to know who is the true originator. Maybe they both can claim it. I believe Ron first introduced the basic combination of ketchup and mayo and that Arctic Circle later perfected it by adding additional ingredients (which they say are part of a secret recipe). The articles listed at the bottom of this post mention some interesting tidbits. For example, the Deseret News article claims more fry sauce is now consumed in Oregon than in Utah. (So maybe Barry, who now lives near Portland, won't have to travel so far to get his fill.) If you have any additional insight, please post a comment here and let us know. I think we should spread the word and honor Ron for this invention that changed the world for the better. (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE Goods and Services IC 042. US 100. G & S: FAST FOOD RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19520600. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19520600 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 73734717 Filing Date June 16, 1988 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 15, 1988 Registration Number 1524008 Registration Date February 7, 1989 Owner (REGISTRANT) QUAKER STATE MINIT-LUBE, INC. CORPORATION DELAWARE 1385 WEST 2200 SOUTH SALT LAKE CITY UTAH 84119 (LAST LISTED OWNER) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION Assignee of DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South, Ste. 200 PO Box 339 Midvale UTAH 84047 Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record FREDERICK B. ZIESENHEIM Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark ARCTIC CIRCLE ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: A dipping sauce for french fries. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 78489185 Filing Date September 24, 2004 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) Arctic Circle Restaurants, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 West 7200 South #200 Midvale UTAH 84047 Prior Registrations 1524008;1529011 Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "original fry sauce" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date May 4, 2006 (Trademark) Word Mark ORIGINAL FRY SAUCE Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: DIPPING SAUCE FOR FRENCH FRIES. FIRST USE: 19560401. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19560401 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75492665 Filing Date May 28, 1998 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Owner (APPLICANT) ARCTIC CIRCLE RESTAURANTS, INC CORPORATION DELAWARE 411 WEST 7200 SOUTH, SUITE 200 PO BOX 339 MIDVALE UTAH 84047 Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD Abandonment Date March 19, 1999 (Trademark) Word Mark THE ORIGINAL FRY SUPER SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20021023. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20021023 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 76375891 Filing Date February 27, 2002 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1B Supplemental Register Date November 4, 2002 Registration Number 2696858 Registration Date March 11, 2003 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH 8170 South Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record JOHN C. STRINGHAM Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register SUPPLEMENTAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE (Trademark) Word Mark HIRES BIG H FAMOUS HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE Goods and Services IC 030. US 046. G & S: Condiments, namely sauces. FIRST USE: 20051201. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20051201 Standard Characters Claimed Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Trademark Search Facility Classification Code LETS-1 H A single letter, multiples of a single letter or in combination with a design NOTATION-SYMBOLS Notation Symbols such as Non-Latin characters,punctuation and mathematical signs,zodiac signs,prescription marks Serial Number 78932156 Filing Date July 18, 2006 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition June 12, 2007 Registration Number 3286306 Registration Date August 28, 2007 Owner (REGISTRANT) Hires Enterprises, Inc. CORPORATION UTAH Suite 210 8160 Highland Drive Sandy UTAH 84093 Attorney of Record John C. Stringham Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "HAMBURGER & FRY SAUCE" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 22:19:56 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:19:56 -0700 Subject: trawf (was Re: southmore) In-Reply-To: <7F73B49C-393F-4BEA-A089-5DB70FCC7C4D@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2007, at 9:15 AM, i wrote: > i've now found a possible > intermediate stage between "soph(o)more" and "southmore", namely "soth > (o)more" (presumably with [T] rather than [f]). modest number of > hits, e.g.: > > and i've heard the Promo For Craig David's Sothomore LP, "Slicker > than your Average", and its totally Brilliant > http://macosx.com/forums/archive/t-23712.html > > Most of our family is being supportive of our homeschooling > adventure. WE also have a 19 sothmore in college. We would like to > hear from others . > http://forums.about.com/dir-app/acx/ACDispatch.aspx? > action=message&webtag=ab-homeschool&msg=11079 now a Language Log reader tells me that ... the [television] weather reporters seem to say "trawth" instead of trough ("trawf ") another [T] for standard [f]. i see that dictionary.com lists pronunciations with [T] for "trough" "sometimes". has the distribution of this pronunciation for this item been studied? has the variant been reported for any roughly similar words: tough, enough, rough, cough? [f] for [T] is, of course, a lenition/simplification. can/should [T] for [f] be seen as a kind of strengthening? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 23 23:29:28 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:29:28 -0400 Subject: trawf (was Re: southmore) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:19 PM -0700 10/23/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Sep 20, 2007, at 9:15 AM, i wrote: > >>i've now found a possible >>intermediate stage between "soph(o)more" and "southmore", namely "soth >>(o)more" (presumably with [T] rather than [f]). modest number of >>hits, e.g.: >> >>and i've heard the Promo For Craig David's Sothomore LP, "Slicker >>than your Average", and its totally Brilliant >>http://macosx.com/forums/archive/t-23712.html >> >>Most of our family is being supportive of our homeschooling >>adventure. WE also have a 19 sothmore in college. We would like to >>hear from others . >>http://forums.about.com/dir-app/acx/ACDispatch.aspx? >>action=message&webtag=ab-homeschool&msg=11079 > >now a Language Log reader tells me that > > ... the [television] weather reporters seem to say "trawth" >instead of trough ("trawf ") > >another [T] for standard [f]. i see that dictionary.com lists >pronunciations with [T] for "trough" "sometimes". has the >distribution of this pronunciation for this item been studied? has >the variant been reported for any roughly similar words: tough, >enough, rough, cough? > >[f] for [T] is, of course, a lenition/simplification. can/should [T] >for [f] be seen as a kind of strengthening? > Maybe these speakers have heard about couples plighting their troth without knowing exactly to what this referred, and just assumed that the "troth" on the weather map is just another kind of whatever that is. (Thus representing a hypercorrection of the obviously sloppy pronunciation /trOf/ one hears all too often--and not just from those cockney-influenced weatherpeople who are always /f/ing their /T/s.) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 23 23:52:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <1104460399-1192979739-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1844210661-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ... MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry > Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is > "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife > of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." there's a trade: the "group genitive" in -s is heavy on the left (and gets heavier as the possessive NP gets longer), which can be harder to process than the right-heavy of-genitive; but the of-genitive is a bit longer (usually, two words: a "the" on the head N, plus the "of"). if i remember the literature correctly, when the possessor NP doesn't end in its head, the of-genitive (the more "analytic" variant) is advancing at the expense of the group genitive (the more "synthetic" variant), which is apparently not very frequent in this configuration. one result is that a few speakers now judge the group genitive in this configuration to be, not merely awkward, but semantically ill- formed (or ungrammatical). see the example in this Language Log posting of mine: AZ, 11/23/06: A friend of mine?s pet bear: http:// itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003814.html in this example, you can see another possible advantage of the group genitive: since the possessor NP comes first, it's more easily interpreted as topical or foregrounded. "a friend of mine's pet bear" foregrounds the friend; "the pet bear of a friend of mine" foregrounds the bear. so a lot depends on what's going on in the discourse. these group genitives aren't disappearing, but it looks like they're becoming the marked variant, mostly used when they have some advantage over the of-genitive. (by the way, some usage advisers just *hate* chains of PPs -- as in "the pet bear of a friend of mine" -- especially when they involve more than one "of".) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Oct 24 02:11:09 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:11:09 -0400 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? In-Reply-To: <3c1dab590710230524i21361f35k89428afce7f81be8@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: >David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular Webcomic >(http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): > >The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can ascertain > > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the > original form > > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, > > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted > > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and this > > spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and > Commonwealth > > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the USA, > > although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, appearing > > in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not that > the US has > > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason *gone > > back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when everyone used > > "titbit". > > > > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change was > > prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude syllables", > > changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" for "tid". > > However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for this as the > > reason. Was there any 'reinvention' of "tidbit"? What is the evidence? Google Books search in works dated 1750-1850 shows both "tidbit" and "titbit" many times, and both appear to have been used on both sides of the Pond during this time. Some entries in reference books showed both alternatives, e.g. "titbit (properly tidbit)" [published London, 1819]. I see "titbit" used by Washington Irving, "tidbit" by Thomas Moore. This is just at a casual glance. I did not attempt to count the instances ... or to identify the birthplaces of the authors ... or to guess whether each spelling was that of the author or of the editor. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1089 - Release Date: 10/23/2007 7:39 PM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Oct 24 10:30:27 2007 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:30:27 +0100 Subject: tidbit versus titbit? Message-ID: I always associate titbit/tidbit with the similar alternation between hotchpotch/hodgepodge. Maybe Americans just like voicing their consonants more! :) Lynne --On 23 October 2007 22:11 -0400 "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: >> David Mar, an Australian, writes in the annotation to his Irregular >> Webcomic (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1731.html): >> >> The etymology of the word "titbit" is interesting. As best I can >> ascertain >> > without access to a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, the >> original form >> > was "tidbit", from the Middle English *tyd*, meaning choice or special, >> > and *bit*, meaning a small morsel. At some point the British converted >> > this to "titbit" for some reason I haven't been able to uncover, and >> > this spelling and pronunciation is now the most common in the UK and >> Commonwealth >> > nations. The "tidbit" spelling remains as an alternative in use in the >> > USA, although it seems to have been a relatively recent re-invention, >> > appearing in the US only as recently as the mid-19th century. It's not >> > that >> the US has >> > *preserved* the original spelling, but that they have for some reason >> > *gone back to it* after an intervening couple of centuries when >> > everyone used "titbit". >> > >> > There is some speculation that the (relatively) recent American change >> > was prompted by a prudish desire to sanitise the language of "rude >> > syllables", changing the potentially titillating (pun intended) "tit" >> > for "tid". However, there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence for >> > this as the reason. > > Was there any 'reinvention' of "tidbit"? What is the evidence? > > Google Books search in works dated 1750-1850 shows both "tidbit" and > "titbit" many times, and both appear to have been used on both sides > of the Pond during this time. Some entries in reference books showed > both alternatives, e.g. "titbit (properly tidbit)" [published London, > 1819]. I see "titbit" used by Washington Irving, "tidbit" by Thomas > Moore. This is just at a casual glance. I did not attempt to count > the instances ... or to identify the birthplaces of the authors ... > or to guess whether each spelling was that of the author or of the editor. > > -- Doug Wilson > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1089 - Release Date: > 10/23/2007 7:39 PM Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics and English Language Arts B135 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 11:45:29 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:45:29 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again Message-ID: It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used by Terri Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, the prophesies' answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 24 14:28:18 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:28:18 -0700 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <5f66f9f10710240445s7ebf5eabxd191a19cf9a8515d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:45 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used > by Terri > Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, the > prophesies' > answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). ah, but is this just spelling? this all started with a pronunciation difference. huge number of hits for {"a prophesy"}, but i'd guess that nearly all of them represent the pronunciation with /i/. also many hits for the verb "prophecied", presumably pronounced with /aj/. Brians, Common Errors: ?Prophecy,? the noun, (pronounced ?PROF-a-see?) is a prediction. The verb ?to prophesy? (pronounced ?PROF-a-sigh?) means to predict something. When a prophet prophesies he or she utters prophecies. MWDEU: The OED shows that historically both spellings have been used for both functions. Webster's Second recognizes -cy for the verb and -sy for the noun as infrequent variants, and so does Webster's Third. ----- but all this is about spelling. MWDEU on "prophesize": Bremner 1980 says this word does not exist, but it does. It is, however, of such low frequency in print that it is not eligible for entry even in an unabridged dictionary. We have examples so far from 1966 and 1981, and a local western Massachusetts newspaper not noted fr elegant spelling essayed _prophesize_ in 1974. ----- [but now it's in the OED] the Columbia Guide to Standard American English (1993) says it is Substandard, apparently an error caused by a feeling that _prophesy_ needs a suffix to be a real verb. To say or write _prophesize_ is a shibboleth. ---- ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. follow-ups by various people, including David Barnhart [contrast with the Columbia Guide above]: The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. the first note at the end of the entry] prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with communication; common) ---- and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under "prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, 19- prophecize. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:08:23 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 15:08:23 +0000 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <846745FD-7504-48A7-A6D2-BAE4ED4EE459@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Arnold, for this definitive explication. The most important issue seems to be what else is going on in the discourse. The length of the phrase may marginally affect intelligibility. Otherwise, strong feelings one way or another are just a matter of taste--not surprising, because generally when the language offers speakers options, folks will try to come up with gross generalizations about the "meaning" and suitability of the variants (eg, "the passive is awkward," "pronouncing {-ing} as /-in/ is vulgar, etc ) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:52:54 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Jerry's the comedian wife On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ... MY aesthetic sense tells ME that neither "the comedian Jerry > Seinfeld's wife" nor "Jerry Seinfeld the comedian's wife" is > "awkward": they are far more elegant (and concise) than "the wife > of the comedian Jerry Seinfeld." there's a trade: the "group genitive" in -s is heavy on the left (and gets heavier as the possessive NP gets longer), which can be harder to process than the right-heavy of-genitive; but the of-genitive is a bit longer (usually, two words: a "the" on the head N, plus the "of"). if i remember the literature correctly, when the possessor NP doesn't end in its head, the of-genitive (the more "analytic" variant) is advancing at the expense of the group genitive (the more "synthetic" variant), which is apparently not very frequent in this configuration. one result is that a few speakers now judge the group genitive in this configuration to be, not merely awkward, but semantically ill- formed (or ungrammatical). see the example in this Language Log posting of mine: AZ, 11/23/06: A friend of mine?s pet bear: http:// itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003814.html in this example, you can see another possible advantage of the group genitive: since the possessor NP comes first, it's more easily interpreted as topical or foregrounded. "a friend of mine's pet bear" foregrounds the friend; "the pet bear of a friend of mine" foregrounds the bear. so a lot depends on what's going on in the discourse. these group genitives aren't disappearing, but it looks like they're becoming the marked variant, mostly used when they have some advantage over the of-genitive. (by the way, some usage advisers just *hate* chains of PPs -- as in "the pet bear of a friend of mine" -- especially when they involve more than one "of".) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:16:53 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:16:53 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710150104.l9EB7mbK023295@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Damn! In my day, we had to do policing by hand! The sergeant would say: "Start bending and picking! I don't want to see nothing but assholes and elbows!" -Wilson On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today ___, tomorrow the world > > Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > > Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > According to a post in the Mudcat Forum (3), it "is a citation from the > chorus of a song (from 1932?):" "Es zittern die morschen Knochen" by Hans > Baumann (4, 5). The refrain is > > Wir werden weiter marschieren > > Wenn alles in Scherben f=E4llt, > > Denn heute da h=F6rt uns Deutschland > > Und morgen die ganze Welt. > > > > (so, not so much a citation as perhaps an allusion) -- which, if my > undergraduate German serves me, means approximately > > We will march on > > (even) if everything falls to pieces, > > for today Germany hears us > > and tomorrow the whole world. > > > > But "da h=F6rt uns" 'hears us', as printed here, may well either be a > softening of "geh=F6rt uns", or have been understood as "da geh=F6rt uns", > 'belongs to us' (6). > > My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The > Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. > collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, > mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 1= > 0 > and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original > slogan. > > m a m > > 1. > http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpa= > rtei; > scroll down to Slogans > 2. http://movies.go.com/tomorrow-the-world/d787709/drama > 3. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3D55750; search for > "translation", in the post by "Wolfgang" of 24 Feb 2003. > 4. http://ingeb.org/Lieder/eszitter.html > 5. http://www.kollektives-gedaechtnis.de/texte/vor45/lieder.html > 6. http://schmautz.gmxhome.de/nachd.htm, bottom of page > 7. http://www.valleybooks.net/cgi-bin/valleybooks/14034.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 24 15:28:48 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:28:48 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <588A56A3-674F-447B-8AA2-1D7F6C9D3AB2@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > >follow-ups by various people, including David Barnhart [contrast with >the Columbia Guide above]: >The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, 2001, p p 285-6) [N.B. >the first note at the end of the entry] > >prophecize, v. {w} A variant form of prophesy (BDE: about 1350). >Standard (used in informal contexts dealing especially with >communication; common) > >---- > >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, >19- prophecize. > And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a "prophesize" from 1895). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 15:37:33 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:37:33 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? In-Reply-To: <200710132140.l9DAuWU1003055@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's hard to say. IMO, it's definitely a tip of the slung, but it could very well have been motivated by an underlying BE form. It's happened to me. Indeed, it can even occur in writing, let alone in speech. There are forms that you're so accustomed to using that it never occurs to you that they're not universal, until members of The Other Group start looking confused, as was the case in my "fuck over" anecdote. -Wilson On 10/13/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Mark Mandel > Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I > wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. > /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me > because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. > > m a m > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 24 16:31:45 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:31:45 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241528.l9OAkW2t026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: > >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in > >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the > >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. > > > >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under > >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with > >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, > >19- prophecize. > > > And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry > includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a > "prophesize" from 1895). Sadly, though, OED doesn't include another lexical oddity from Dylan's 1964 output, the eggcorn "scrapegoat" as used in "Ballad in Plain D" ("The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone / By the jealousy of others around her"). This would be difficult to include, actually, since it appears as "scapegoat" in the published lyrics. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 24 16:45:06 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:45:06 -0400 Subject: an AAVE final CC reduction by Sen. Obama? Message-ID: Of course, Southerners--black and white, and perhaps AAVE-influenced speakers elsewhere--tend to manifest the word "interest" without the final [-t]. Thence the possible pluralizing of "interest" as "interes'es." I believe I myself tend to use something like a zero-plural (phonologically speaking) for the word (as pronounced [-t]-lessly). In any case, the /-sts/ cluster is just TOO MUCH! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:37:33 -0400 >From: Wilson Gray > >It's hard to say. IMO, it's definitely a tip of the slung, but it could very well have been motivated by an underlying BE form. It's happened to me. Indeed, it can even occur in writing, let alone in speech. There are forms that you're so accustomed to using that it never occurs to you that they're not universal, until members of The Other Group start looking confused, as was the case in my "fuck over" anecdote. > >-Wilson > >On 10/13/07, Mark Mandel wrote: >> >> In the last hour Sen. Barack Obama was being interviewed on NPR News. I wasn't listening closely, but I'm pretty sure I heard him say "defend U.S. /'IntrIsIz/ and citizens" (2nd & 3rd vowels as barred I). It struck me because it seemed quite out of place in his speech. >> >> m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 24 20:13:03 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 12:31 PM -0400 10/24/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: >On 10/24/07, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> At 7:28 AM -0700 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >> >ah, but we've been *here* before. from Fred Shapiro, 3/26/05: >> >Despite having over 11,000 Google hits and being used prominently in >> >Bob Dylan's landmark 1964 song "The Times They Are A-Changin'," the >> >word _prophesize_ is still not in OED or Merriam-Webster. >> > >> >and Jesse Sheidlower pointed out that it was in the OED, under >> >"prophecize". now in 2007, the OED entry is for "prophesize", with >> >variant spellings: 18- prophecise, 18- prophesise, 18- prophesize, >> >19- prophecize. >> > >> And, as I learned before posting on "prophesize", the OED entry >> includes the Dylan line (along with a "prophecise" from 1816 and a >> "prophesize" from 1895). > >Sadly, though, OED doesn't include another lexical oddity from Dylan's >1964 output, the eggcorn "scrapegoat" as used in "Ballad in Plain D" >("The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone / By the jealousy of >others around her"). This would be difficult to include, actually, >since it appears as "scapegoat" in the published lyrics. > >--Ben Zimmer > Ben is responsible for the "scrapegoat" entry in the eggcorn database, which includes a commentary from "Mike" from a year ago referencing a Time magazine article in Feb. 1964 in which Lee Harvey Oswald's mother Marguerite accuses the CIA of making her son the scrapegoat. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 24 20:29:34 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 13:29:34 -0700 Subject: Jerry's the comedian wife In-Reply-To: <2106122360-1193238524-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-277643691-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:08 AM, Ron Butters wrote (about the choice between the -s possessive and the of-possessive when the possessor NP is long and/or complex): > The most important issue seems to be what else is going on in the > discourse. i just wanted to pull that out and stress it. a lot of my academic writing these days is taken up with criticizing judgments on isolated phrases and sentences (by linguists, by usage advisers, by ordinary people with an interest in language), when the phenomena at issue are sensitive (often exquisitely so) to aspects of the discourse context, the speaker's/writer's intentions, etc. i have about two dozen Language Log pieces in preparation in which these matters figure prominently. i find it especially vexing that advice for *writers* should be so heavily focused on material examined out of context. i think i understand how the problem arises. a great many people think of discourse as just sentences strung together; you produce a well-formed sentence and then follow it with another one and then another, and so on. it's all very much a "bottom-up" process. if you think of discourse this way, you'll concentrate very much on individual sentences, without context, and you're likely to attribute problems you see to the syntax or style of those sentences. but discourse is organized so as to create coherence for stretches of text, to pursue various goals, and so one. these factors figure significantly in the choices you make in framing individual sentences. ah, well, i need to get back to the specific cases... arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 21:32:02 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:32:02 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710161536.l9GAp6oQ000363@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? -- Any?? m?bi. On 16/10/2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Tom Zurinskas < truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this > official? > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce it. > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at > authorhouse.com . > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Barry Popik > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > > ... > > ... > > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > > ... > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > > born in the ... > > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > > ... > > ... > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired seniors > stand > > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology About > the Pew > > Internet & American Life Project > http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 21:35:49 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:35:49 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm assuming is) the majority of speakers? -- Any???? m??bi. On 24/10/2007, Stephen Montgomery wrote: > > Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which > word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to > my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly > master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > > And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > -- > Any???? m??bi. > > On 16/10/2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society < ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > > Poster: Tom Zurinskas < truespel at HOTMAIL.COM> > > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social > > Security) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I guess "tidal wave" is out and "tsunami" is in. What or who made this > > official? > > > > Does anyone pronounce the "t" in tsunami? m-w.com does not pronounce > > it. > > > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ > > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at > > authorhouse.com . > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 10:36:57 -0400 > > > From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM > > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Barry Popik > > > Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > SILVER TSUNAMI-12,700 Google hits > > > ... > > > ... > > > This is all over this week's news. Did the Pew Center coin this in > > > 2001 (before the tsunami of a few years ago)? > > > ... > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > > The Real Beginning of the End of the 20th Century, or, Batten Down ... > > > > > Reason Online, CA - 2 hours ago > > > Social Security, which referred to the looming crisis as a "silver > > > tsunami," is facing enormous financial pressures from the generation > > > born in the ... > > > First boomer files for Social Security Earthtimes > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE NEWS) > > > Boomers and Seniors Connect with Technology > > > KREN CW 27 TV, NV - Oct 10, 2007 > > > After all, the Pew Center refers to the coming "Silver Tsunami" of > > > boomers and recent retirees familiar with technology and the Internet. > > > ... > > > ... > > > (GOOGLE GROUPS) > > > RESOUR> Pew Report: wired seniors Group: > > > comp.internet.net-happenings ... and finances online Email is the #1 > > > draw for seniors Hobbies Money Health > > > News Weather Browsing for fun Evolving from timid to savvy Wired > > seniors stand > > > apart from their disinterested peers A silver tsunami Methodology > > About the Pew > > > Internet & American Life Project > > http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/toc.asp? ... > > > Sep 10 2001 by net-happenings moderator > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > N????q????^r??r'??m?????z??jwbjW???? From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 24 22:01:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:01:57 +0000 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? Message-ID: Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," "presidency")? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wytukaze at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 24 22:31:10 2007 From: wytukaze at GMAIL.COM (Stephen Montgomery) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:31:10 +0100 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242145.l9OAlqug026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, from the top. First message: Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? Second message: Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm assuming is) the majority of speakers? [So make that apologies for the triple post and spamming your inboxes with reams of nonsense.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 25 00:22:13 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:22:13 -0700 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <2147254912-1193263337-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-217686175-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb > because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ > cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," > "presidency")? 1. there are plenty of -ize verbs based on nouns ending in /i/, e.g.: analogize, apologize; colonize, harmonize; deputize; summarize; subsidize so: /ti di ni ri Ji/. why should /si/ be excluded? 2. though -ize does many things (derive inchoatives, derive causative-inchoatives, derive verbs meaning 'to supply with', derive verbs meaning 'to behave like', 'to treat the way ... does', etc.), there are semantic restrictions on the bases these various kinds of - ize can combine with. these semantic restrictions remove a large number of bases in /si/ from consideration; in particular, abstract nouns in -ancy/-ency are semantically inappropriate; and "leprosize" would be as odd as "influenzize". i'm not sure that we're left with enough /si/ bases to justify a generalization. 3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: fragranc(e)ize, condominiumize, condomize, Thatcherize, etc. these are nonce formations, but they're interpretable in context. so the fact that you haven't heard or seen a particular -ize word or that it isn't in dictionaries doesn't mean it's impossible, only that people haven't yet seen a use for it. i can easily imagine "legacize" 'supply (with) a legacy, turn sth into a legacy' and "agencize" 'turn sth into an agency' (as in "GWB agencized Homeland Security"). 4. "prophesize" (however you spell it) when it was first created probably meant 'supply (with) prophecies' -- i.e., something very close to "prophesy". the material in the OED is not nearly enough to indicate whether people who had both verbs might have used them a bit differently. but, in any case, "prophesize" is an improvement over "prophesy" on morphological grounds. 5. another fun fact: there's also a verb "prophetize", based on the noun "prophet", presumably meaning originally 'behave like a prophet' -- i.e., 'prophesy', once again. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 00:44:27 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:44:27 -0400 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <4F746051-9F7C-4883-AF27-C8838FD551A8@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/24/2007 08:22 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect >verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: No pun intended by "productive", I assume. By the number of his examples, Arnold has apparently assiduized. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 00:10:06 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:10:06 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242231.l9OGisAr026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: /ts-/ yes, /mn-/ no. m a m (not mn a mn) On 10/24/07, Stephen Montgomery wrote: > > Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now > was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, > from the top. > > First message: > Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which > word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down > to > my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't > properly > master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > > And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 00:07:37 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:07:37 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241428.l9OAkWp7026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 24, 2007, at 4:45 AM, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > It goes both ways. Just now I chanced on "prophesy" as a noun, used > > by Terri Windling (who should know better): "the keys to the riddles, > the > > prophesies' answer" (Realms of Fantasy, Oct. 2007, p.32). > > ah, but is this just spelling? this all started with a pronunciation > difference. > > huge number of hits for {"a prophesy"}, but i'd guess that nearly all > of them represent the pronunciation with /i/. also many hits for the > verb "prophecied", presumably pronounced with /aj/. > (Was I up at 4:45 am? Ah, Pacific Time.) "presumably pronounced with /aj/." A reasonable supposition for those who were writing what they'd heard. But once in writing it can be picked up by people who don't connect it with /aj/ -- perhaps have never heard /'prOf at saj/ -- and pronounced with /i:/ as the spelling suggests. m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 00:54:20 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:54:20 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710250007.l9OGisHV026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I know that more than once I have heard the verb "prophesy" read with /-i/ on the end by people reading scripture in church. I would presume that they simply weren't familiar with the verb (or with its pronunciation, at least), since it is heard much less often than the noun. I wonder whether we will see a trend towards use of "prophesy" pronounced with an /-i/ ending if people continue to see it every so often in text but never to heard pronounced with the /-ai/. I suspect that in general usage "prophesize" is more likely to gain the upper hand, though, as it's formed in a rather more standard way for modern users. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Thu Oct 25 01:01:44 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis Preston) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:01:44 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710242231.l9OIu0WY006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Stephen, 1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. 2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify Guiness? 3) You don't pronounce the /t/ at the onset of silver? dInIs (long day) >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Stephen Montgomery >Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Okay, I'm assuming the string of gibberish I received from myself just now >was thanks to a problem with UTF-8 on the list's end, so let's try again, >from the top. > >First message: >Just to timidly poke a dead horse, while I have little interest in which >word is better, I pronounce the 't' in tsunami. Might be, mind you, down to >my acquaintance with German's initial /ts/ (although I still can't properly >master the /sts/ of 'Szene' et al). > >And, while I'm at it, does anyone but me pronounce the 'm' of 'mnemonic'? > > > >Second message: >Apologies for the double post, but I forgot to mention something else. Did >it occur to anyone else that the choice of "tsunami" in "silver tsunami" >might have had something to do with the alliterative quality for (what I'm >assuming is) the majority of speakers? > >[So make that apologies for the triple post and spamming your inboxes with >reams of nonsense.] > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English Morrill Hall 15-C Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48864 USA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 01:42:30 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:42:30 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:01 PM -0400 10/24/07, Dennis Preston wrote: >Stephen, > >1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. > >2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if >you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify >Guiness? I pronounce *an* /m/ in mnemonic. ;-) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 02:14:15 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:14:15 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called "number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : "John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided number cube numbered 1-7." Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word usage. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 02:34:35 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 02:39:25 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:39:25 +0000 Subject: Why "prophesize" ? In-Reply-To: <4F746051-9F7C-4883-AF27-C8838FD551A8@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: I agree completely, and I add only that my point as that making "prophesy" a verb sans adding /z/ just feels WEIRD. Yet we have e.g. "allied" and other two-syllable words. Arnold has thought this out more carefully than I, though--as usual. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:22:13 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Why "prophesize" ? On Oct 24, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > Is there a reluctance to turn "prophesy" into an ordinary verb > because (most? all?) other 3&4-syllable nouns ending in /-si/ > cannot become verbs (e.g., "leprosy," "legacy," "agency," "piracy," > "presidency")? 1. there are plenty of -ize verbs based on nouns ending in /i/, e.g.: analogize, apologize; colonize, harmonize; deputize; summarize; subsidize so: /ti di ni ri Ji/. why should /si/ be excluded? 2. though -ize does many things (derive inchoatives, derive causative-inchoatives, derive verbs meaning 'to supply with', derive verbs meaning 'to behave like', 'to treat the way ... does', etc.), there are semantic restrictions on the bases these various kinds of - ize can combine with. these semantic restrictions remove a large number of bases in /si/ from consideration; in particular, abstract nouns in -ancy/-ency are semantically inappropriate; and "leprosize" would be as odd as "influenzize". i'm not sure that we're left with enough /si/ bases to justify a generalization. 3. in addition, -ize is a very productive suffix; if you collect verbs in -ize assiduously, you can find a new one almost every day: fragranc(e)ize, condominiumize, condomize, Thatcherize, etc. these are nonce formations, but they're interpretable in context. so the fact that you haven't heard or seen a particular -ize word or that it isn't in dictionaries doesn't mean it's impossible, only that people haven't yet seen a use for it. i can easily imagine "legacize" 'supply (with) a legacy, turn sth into a legacy' and "agencize" 'turn sth into an agency' (as in "GWB agencized Homeland Security"). 4. "prophesize" (however you spell it) when it was first created probably meant 'supply (with) prophecies' -- i.e., something very close to "prophesy". the material in the OED is not nearly enough to indicate whether people who had both verbs might have used them a bit differently. but, in any case, "prophesize" is an improvement over "prophesy" on morphological grounds. 5. another fun fact: there's also a verb "prophetize", based on the noun "prophet", presumably meaning originally 'behave like a prophet' -- i.e., 'prophesy', once again. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Thu Oct 25 02:43:18 2007 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but RPGers needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? -Matt ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 03:51:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 23:51:58 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <2B9C268F14E3E647845C2AA0195E2C96026A2701@UM-XMAIL03.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: At 9:43 PM -0500 10/24/07, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn >Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > >>I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >>dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >>digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >>school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >>be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >>that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >>"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >>she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >>a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >>at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : >> >>"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >>number cube numbered 1-7." >> >>Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >>question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >>meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >>solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >>number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >>usage. >> >Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >the number cube is cast. > >LH > > >Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad >influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but >RPGers needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? > >-Matt >------------------------------------------------------------ Backgammonists? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 06:51:08 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:51:08 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) In-Reply-To: <200710250142.l9ONu63S026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For want of a term, I call this "spelnouncing" - pronouncing a word as it's spelled, or as one intuits its pronunciation from the usual pronunciation of the letter strings that make up a word. I like this because it follows the alphabetic principle, that letters stand for sounds. The fact that many words do not follow spelnouncing makes English harder to learn. I'm all for making English easier to learn and say. Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that "tidal wave" is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" means. If they have a good reason, I'd like to know it. Perhapas "typhoon" is preferable to "hurricane?" Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:42:30 -0400 > From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 9:01 PM -0400 10/24/07, Dennis Preston wrote: >>Stephen, >> >>1) If you can't muster German /sts/, please don't look at Polish. >> >>2) No; to my knowledge you are the only native speaker of English (if >>you are one) who pronounces the /m/ in mnemonic. Should we notify >>Guiness? > > I pronounce *an* /m/ in mnemonic. ;-) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM Thu Oct 25 08:01:31 2007 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM (Russ McClay) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:01:31 +0800 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" In-Reply-To: <200710250651.l9OIu0s4006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that > "tidal wave" is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. Preferred by whom? =) Actually the "powers that be" is "usage". > Perhapas "typhoon" is preferable to "hurricane?" Or Willy-Willy? Living in Typhoon Alley here in Asia, I prefer the meteorological term: tropical cyclone. And... tsunami (silent t) works for me. Russ Taipei ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Oct 25 10:41:08 2007 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:41:08 -0400 Subject: prophe(s/c)y again In-Reply-To: <200710241428.l9OAlqZa006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: American Dialect Society writes: > >MWDEU on "prophesize": Bremner 1980 says this word does not exist, >but it does. It is, however, of such low frequency in print that it >is not eligible for entry even in an unabridged dictionary. We have >examples so far from 1966 and 1981, and a local western Massachusetts >newspaper not noted fr elegant spelling essayed _prophesize_ in 1974. There's an entry in Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 13.3, p 285), if anyone's interested. Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 12:55:45 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:55:45 +0000 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >number cube numbered 1-7." > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >usage. > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, the number cube is cast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 13:55:59 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 09:55:59 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <1103802520-1193316965-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim .net-109095263-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up not of square faces. If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) Joel >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn > >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in > >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their > >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem > >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided > >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word > >usage. > > >Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >the number cube is cast. > >LH > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 14:15:22 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:15:22 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710251356.l9PDu075016713@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: That should be "Of course," of course. My fingers aren't warmed up this early in the morning. At 10/25/2007 09:55 AM, you wrote: >At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >>Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? > >Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up >not of square faces. > >If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was >some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) > >Joel > >>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Laurence Horn >> >>Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >>To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes >> >> >> >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, >> >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than >> >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences >> >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can >> >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because >> >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called >> >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned >> >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for >> >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following >> >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : >> > >> >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided >> >number cube numbered 1-7." >> > >> >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in >> >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their >> >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem >> >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided >> >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word >> >usage. >> > >>Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling >>that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether >>the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, >>the number cube is cast. >> >>LH >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 14:28:28 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:28:28 +0000 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: So the mathematicians have redefined "cube"? I would call the four-sided solid a "pyramid." See AMERICAN HERITAGE: CUBE NOUN: 1. Mathematics A regular solid having six congruent square faces. 2a. Something having the general shape of a cube: a cube of sugar. b. A cubicle, used for work or study. 3. Mathematics The third power of a number or quantity. 4. cubes Slang Cubic inches. Used especially of an internal combustion engine. ------Original Message------ From: Joel S. Berson Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 25, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes At 10/25/2007 08:55 AM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >Wouldn't a four-sided cube have to be made up of two-sided squares? Of 4 triangles. Just as a seven-sided cube would have to be made up not of square faces. If course a four-sided cube won't woll wery well. (IIRC, there was some long time ago a learned article on this subject.) Joel >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: Laurence Horn > >Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:34:35 >To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: [ADS-L] non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching mat Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 15:42:23 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 16:18:04 2007 From: spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM (Scot LaFaive) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:18:04 -0500 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkieq023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: News to me. Scot > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400> From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU> Subject: The m-word> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?!> > --Charlie> _____________________________________________________________> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 16:26:47 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:26:47 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251618.l9PAkinn026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ to so offend. Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling course. (the other) doug > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 16:44:48 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:44:48 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251627.l9PAkiqv023477@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. WS Quoting Doug Harris : > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Doug Harris > Subject: Re: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive > in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But > I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ > to so offend. > Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling > course. > (the other) doug > >> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= > word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= > _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= > ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= > ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= > e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= > word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= > e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= > nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= > p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= > sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~Will Salmon ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK Thu Oct 25 16:41:32 2007 From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:41:32 +0100 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkipi026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > From: Charles Doyle > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:42:23 -0400 > To: > Subject: The m-word > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had > uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some > of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and > nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male > student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. > That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in > the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As > far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma > attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie Just as long as you're not talking about oysters... Check out www.male 101.com/synonyms [if it's still active] where in 2003 'moist oyster' was listed as a synonym for the vulva/vagina. --Neil Crawford > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 25 16:49:32 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025114223.IKN07418@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women > in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat > flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the > offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual > suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual > arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of > my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a > connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I > could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever > stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 16:55:12 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:55:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:44:48 -0400 >From: William Salmon >Subject: Re: The m-word > >I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. > >WS > >Quoting Doug Harris : >>> >> I would imagine that _could_ be interpreted as offensive >> in certain contexts, but not in just any old context. But >> I'd think the 'offender' would pretty much have to be _trying_ >> to so offend. >> Perhaps someone needs a desensitization or imagination-dulling >> course. >> (the other) doug >> >>> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the= >> word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra= >> _) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (n= >> ot hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor= >> ). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for th= >> e offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the= >> word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all besid= >> e-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a co= >> nnotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "dam= >> p" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I mis= >> sing here?!> > --Charlie> _________________________________________________= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Oct 25 16:56:57 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:56:57 +0000 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025164932.GA17571@panix.com> Message-ID: I have heard "wetty-wetty" used this way, but not "moist." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Sheidlower Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The m-word On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women > in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of > information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat > flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the > offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual > suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual > arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of > my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a > connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I > could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever > stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:01:54 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:01:54 -0400 Subject: "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" Message-ID: I believe that this is the earliest version of "lies, damned lies, and statistics" that has so far been discovered: 1891 _Notes & Queries_ 10 Oct. 288 DEGREES OF FALSEHOOD. -- Who was it who said, "There are three degrees of falsehood: the first is a fib, the second is a lie, and then come statistics"? ST. SWITHIN It does not appear that this query was ever answered. Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:02:08 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:02:08 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025114223.IKN07418@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word MOIST!) these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now taking it to be offensive to women. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:10:42 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:10:42 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that my students are consonant with the times. I'll now remember to compliment the cook by describing her cake as exquisitely "wet" or "damp"! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 >From: Jesse Sheidlower > >On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: >> >> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word >> "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & >> Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women >> in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of >> information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat >> flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the >> offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual >> suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual >> arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of >> my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a >> connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I >> could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever >> stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > >This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: > >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html >http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From william.salmon at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:17:40 2007 From: william.salmon at YALE.EDU (William Salmon) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:17:40 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251655.l9PAki0U026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry. That should be that I have heard it used offensively with "a" diminutive suffix. And the suffix in question is -ie/-y. > "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? > > ---- Original message ---- >> I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. >> >> WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Thu Oct 25 17:22:40 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:22:40 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710250403.l9P09lTV026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > Today ___, tomorrow the world > Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The > Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. > collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, > mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 > and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original > slogan. My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the exact way the DJ ended the discussion: Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today DC, tomorrow the world! -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:33:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:33:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251657.l9PAkiqI023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wetty-wetty???? WTF??? 'Makes me wanna barfy-poo. (the other) doug I have heard "wetty-wetty" used this way, but not "moist." Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:36:12 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:36:12 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251717.l9PH7b8P026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And what, one may wonder, were you _doing_ in a 'moistie" context, anyway? ;) (the other) doug Sorry. That should be that I have heard it used offensively with "a" diminutive suffix. And the suffix in question is -ie/-y. > "moistine"? "moistet"? "moistkin"? > > ---- Original message ---- >> I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. >> >> WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:39:34 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:39:34 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025131042.IKP02331@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 1:10 PM -0400 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: >Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the evident >aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the vehemence of >that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that my students are >consonant with the times. > >I'll now remember to compliment the cook by describing her cake as >exquisitely "wet" or "damp"! > >--Charlie Very interesting; I had no idea of the existence of this phenomenon, much less its breadth and depth. It looks to me as though the source is (as so often in language) an effect of the combination of sound (in particular the /oi/ nucleus exacerbated by the following voiceless sibilant) and meaning (in particular the collocational one, as a modifier of panties). So neither "choice", say, nor "damp" have any particular aversive effect. Is it, as it appears to me, only women who are "moist"ophobic? So it would appear from the evidence presented on the Language Log posts, along with Charlie's post. LH >_____________________________________________________________ > >---- Original message ---- >>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:49:32 -0400 >>From: Jesse Sheidlower >> >>On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 11:42:23AM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: >>> >>> A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word >>> "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & >>> Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women >>> in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of >>> information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat >>> flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the >>> offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual >>> suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual >>> arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of >>> my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a >>> connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I >>> could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever >>> stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! >> >>This has been discussed in several recent posts on the Language Log: >> >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html >>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html >> >>Jesse Sheidlower >>OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 17:41:00 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:41:00 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251723.l9PAki5w026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of course the phrase would have taken on a totally different meaning had the speaker been referring more specifically to a certain MD city rather than the entire state: "Yesterday, AC, today DC, tomorrow we're _all_ connected." (the other) doug My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the exact way the DJ ended the discussion: Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today DC, tomorrow the world! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 17:49:11 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <4720D0E0.7010700@pmpkn.net> Message-ID: At 1:22 PM -0400 10/25/07, David Bowie wrote: >On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > >>Today ___, tomorrow the world > >>Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > >>Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi >>party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > > >>My first encounter with this snowclone was in (IIRC) William Steig's _The >>Lonely Ones_ (7), the great cartoonist's first book, published 1942: a G.I. >>collecting litter with litter bag, spiked stick, and a bitter expression, >>mutters "Today the area, tomorrow the world!" I was probably younger than 10 >>and didn't know the phrase "policing the area", much less the original >>slogan. > >My favorite example of this was when i was in high school (so this would >have been between 1983-1987, when a morning DJ was talking about the >then-governor of Maryland (and i'm thinking it was Don Schaefer, which >would have placed this spring-ish of 1987), who had said that he thought >that retrocession of DC to Maryland would be worth entertaining as a way >of dealing with the DC voting rights question. I still remember the >exact way the DJ ended the discussion: > > Hey, this is the way Hitler got started--yesterday Maryland, today > DC, tomorrow the world! > A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonard-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Thu Oct 25 18:00:03 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:00:03 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251749.l9PAki3Y023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_not_i ll_take_manhattan/ (And notice who's URL that is!!! (the other) doug A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonar d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 18:20:34 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:20:34 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <02b501c81730$de6d8e50$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: At 2:00 PM -0400 10/25/07, Doug Harris wrote: >Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: >http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_not_i >ll_take_manhattan/ Different sense of "take", though. Cohen's is more the hostile takeover model. --"Lorenz" H. > >(And notice who's URL that is!!! >(the other) doug > >A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): > >First we take Manhattan, >Then we take Berlin > >Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at >http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Leonar >d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. >Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very >Cohenian music video with many seagulls. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Oct 25 18:17:45 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:17:45 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: A<02b501c81730$de6d8e50$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: The lyrics for "Manhattan" on Barry's site refer to My Fair Lady and South Pacific, which seems unlikely for a 1925 song. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 2:00 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world Then, of course, there's the Rogers and Hart (the other LH) version: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/manhattan_1925_n ot_i ll_take_manhattan/ (And notice who's URL that is!!! (the other) doug A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): First we take Manhattan, Then we take Berlin Refrain of "First we take Manhattan"; full lyrics at http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/FIRST-WE-TAKE-MANHATTAN-lyrics-Le onar d-Cohen/926CCB64249F308848256AF00028CB85. Also cf. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBKV0zVXSE for a very Cohenian music video with many seagulls. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Oct 25 18:03:28 2007 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:03:28 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025131042.IKP02331@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 01:10:42PM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the > evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the > vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that > my students are consonant with the times. I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 18:37:42 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:37:42 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <20071025180328.GA5824@panix.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Oct 25 18:43:53 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:43:53 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <1626231138-1193322528-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim .net-1622448584-@bxe104.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 25 18:32:37 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:32:37 -0400 Subject: snowclone: Today ___, tomorrow the world In-Reply-To: <200710251749.l9PAki3Y023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > > At 1:22 PM -0400 10/25/07, David Bowie wrote: > >On 10/14/07, Mark Mandel wrote: > > > >>Today ___, tomorrow the world > > > >>Google reports about 242,000 hits for "tomorrow the world". > > > >>Original: "Today Germany, tomorrow the world!", a translation of the Nazi > >>party slogan "Heute Deutschland, morgen die Welt!" (1, 2) > > A variant from Leonard Cohen (the "I'm Your Man" album): > > First we take Manhattan, > Then we take Berlin Two other New York-oriented variants... * In the original version of Mel Brooks' "The Producers" (1968), at the premiere of "Springtime for Hitler" the playwright Franz Liebkind announces, "Today Broadway, tomorrow..." and then trails off making vague hand gestures. * The 1976 debut album by The Ramones featured "Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World." Wikipedia says the song "was inspired by Dee Dee's youth in Germany, as well as Johnny's fascination with old WWII movies. Originally titled 'I'm a Nazi, Baby' the song features tongue in cheek lyrics about Nazism, such as, 'I'm a shock trooper in a stupor, yes I am/ I'm a Nazi schatze, you know I fight for the fatherland'. This song, along with "Blitzkrieg Bop", mark the first appearance of Nazi themes and imagery in Punk music (even though Joey was Jewish)." --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Thu Oct 25 18:57:53 2007 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:57:53 -0700 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710250246.l9ONu64W026407@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: --- "Gordon, Matthew J." wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." > Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn > Sent: Wed 10/24/2007 9:34 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: non-6-sided dice > number cubes > > >I learned today from a fellow editor that in some school texbooks, > >dice are called "number cubes" even when they have pips rather than > >digits. Not so surprising, I suppose, given the kind of influences > >school texts tend to suffer under (referring to a "disabled car" can > >be a no-no, as can be talking about tranquillizing a bear -- because > >that refers to drugs). But non-cubic dice are also being called > >"number cubes," even in math textbooks. After one editor mentioned > >she was faced with "four-sided number cube" in a teacher's guide for > >a math course and was not allowed to change it, I found the following > >at http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/2004/5/04.05.10.x.html : > > > >"John was tossing a 4-sided number cube numbered 1-4 and a 7-sided > >number cube numbered 1-7." > > > >Note that this is a sample problem for teaching math. The page in > >question begins with the following sentence: "Words and their > >meanings may present the greatest obstacle to mathematical problem > >solving for students." However, the reference to 4-side and 7-sided > >number cubes is not being used as an illustration of problematic word > >usage. > > > Maybe it's not necessarily the apparent endorsement of gambling > that's being avoided but rather the problem of figuring out whether > the singular of "dice" is really "die". Well, as Caesar used to say, > the number cube is cast. > > LH > > > Oh, and here I was thinking this was just another example of the bad > influence of Dungeons and Dragons on America's youth. Who else but RPGers > needs to talk about dice of more (or less) than 6 sides? > > -Matt Its too bad they didn't adopt RPG nomenclature for dice; I would have liked it if the example would had read "John was tossing 1d4 and 1d7." Jeff Prucher Editor, Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction http://www.jeffprucher.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Oct 25 19:04:07 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:04:07 -0400 Subject: Media Request Message-ID: I have had a request from a national television show wanting to talk with someone knowledgeable about dialectology, located near to New York or Los Angeles. My impression is that dialectologists tend to be located in the South or maybe Midwest, so I am at a bit of a loss. If anyone knowledgeable about dialectology in the N.Y. or L.A. areas is interested, or if anyone else can suggest such a person, I'd love to hear from you. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 19:13:29 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:13:29 -0400 Subject: Washeteria (January 1936) Message-ID: WASHETERIA--28,700 Google hits WASHATERIA--23,600 Google hits WASHITERIA--128 Google hits ... OED has an entry for "washeteria," but it needs revision. WIll DARE have it? Was this term coined by C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth, TX in 1936? ... Washiteria--with "shit" in the middle--is seldom used, but it's worth adding for errant Googlers. ... O.T.: I'm still recovering from Wednesday's New York Times lead story on "Tex-Mex." The guy (a NYT sports writer) never came to Austin and never interviewed me (first cites of "Tex-Mex"), but he did interview Robb Walsh (who wrote a book on "Tex-Mex" several years ago). What was the purpose of the article--what Tex-Mex means to NYT sportswriter Joe Drape? Why now?...Also, there are some fine Tex-Mex places in NYC. My wife misses Blockheads and its $4 Margaritas. Actually, my wife misses ANY Margaritas these days. ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/washeteria_washateria_washiteria/ ... Entry from October 25, 2007 Washeteria (Washateria; Washiteria) The "washeteria" (wash + cafeteria) is often spelled ""washateria" or even "washiteria" (with the dirty word in the middle). The washeteria is popular in the South; it is called a "laundromat" or "launderette" is other places. The Modern Mechanix (January 1936) article in the November 1, 2005 post (below) asserts that the first "washeteria" was opened by C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth. Fact Monster wash?a?te?ri?a Pronunciation: (wosh"u-t?r'?-u, w?"shu-) ?n. Chiefly Southern U.S. a launderette. Also,washeteria. Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright (c) 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease. Answers.com wash?e?teria (w?sh'?-t?r'?-?, w?'sh?-) n. A laundromat. [WASH + (CAF)ETERIA.] Urban Dictionary washateria (noun) where jase and the other scragglers wash they clothes. "One of you pledges needs to give me a ride to the washateria. I am running out of clothes. I will let Solana wash some stuff but not my underwear because they stank." by Ches Fedric Miss. State Univ. Nov 1, 2005 Mr. Smarty Pants (Austin Chronicle) Laundromat Facts The word "washateria," primarily used in the South, came into the English language around 1937. Bendix Appliances invented the automatic washing machine in 1937. The word "laundromat" was registered as a trademark by Westinghouse Electric, a subsidiary of White Consolidated Industries on Oct. 1, 1947. Westinghouse listed the word as first being used in commerce on Oct. 26, 1940, and renewed the trademark in 1988. Early laundromats were open specific hours, and since they did not necessarily feature coin-operated machines, there was always an attendant on duty. Some even required that you make an appointment. The first unattended, 24-hour self-service laundromat in the United States was opened by Nelson Puett in 1949 on North Loop in Austin, Texas about where present day Room Service is located. According to the March 1950 issue of Nation's Business, there were an estimated 4,000 laundromats, laundrettes, laundreezes, and assorted self-service washeries nationwide in 1950. (Oxford English Dictionary) washeteria orig. and chiefly U.S. Also washateria. [f. WASH v. + -ETERIA.] a. = LAUNDERETTE. 1959 [see -TERIA suffix]. 1966 Sunday Times 17 July 30 Now that we have grown accustomed to the blandishments of..something called Washeterias, the next step may be drive-in laundries. b. car washeteria: a self-service car-washing establishment. 1965 Daily Tel. 14 May 20/2 (Advt.), The demand from motorists for simple-to-operate inexpensive car washing facilities will go on growing. Here's how the Car Washeteria answers these requirements. 27 October 1940, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 7 classified ad: FOR SALE at a bargain, Washateria, all new equipment, one year old. If interested see DOSSIE DEEDS at Top Rail stand in Cedar Hill, Texas. 11 November 1941, Dallas (TX) Morning News, section 2, pg. 3 classified ad: FOR SALE?Money-making washeteria, account being draftee. Good equipment, business well established. JOE BOX, Grapevine, Texas. The Daily Texican Tuesday, July 27, 2004 Spanglish Word Of The Day - Washateria Washateria: This has to be one of the best words I've heard, because it's even been introduced into the maintstream. Drive by a laundry mat in Oak Cliff or East Dallas and it says: Washateria. Oh my god, that's awesome. posted by Daily Texican at 11:33 AM 6 Comments: (...) Anonymous said? also, it's spelled "washeteria" and it is not "Spanglish" 10:40 PM (...) Anonymous said? I grew up in East Texas and never saw a spanish person, we always said "washateria" I never heard laundromat used until I went to college in San Antonio 12:46 PM Modern Mechanix November 21, 2005 Powered by Gregarious World's First Washeteria Opened (Jan, 1936) Filed under: Origins ? @ 3:49 pm Source: Modern Mechanix 1-1936 A new idea promptly put to work has resulted in a fast growing business for Mr. C. A. Tannahill of Fort Worth, Texas. He decided women who did not have room for a modern laundry in their home would be glad to pay to do their own washing in a place that did. He established the world's first washeteria, and found he was right. 4776 Hammel 10.24.2007 (...) Texas is strange, its also the place that calls laundry mats washiterias. (Trademark) Word Mark WASHETERIA Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 037. US 103. G & S: COIN OPERATED LAUNDRY SERVICE. FIRST USE: 19590505. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19590505 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 72080687 Filing Date September 1, 1959 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0740756 Registration Date November 13, 1962 Owner (REGISTRANT) WASHETERIA, INC. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 26 RACINE ST. JANESVILLE WISCONSIN Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Type of Mark SERVICE MARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator DEAD ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Oct 25 19:19:38 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:19:38 -0400 Subject: Hamburger/Steakburger Sandwich, Cheeseburger In-Reply-To: <200710231705.l9NAl4Go015524@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/23/07, RonButters at aol.com wrote: > > What is the earliest "steakburger" that you have found? Last year I posted a 1934 cite for "steakburger" from S.J. Perelman: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0607B&L=ADS-L&P=R3367 Dunno if Barry's beaten that. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From baesparza at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 19:45:38 2007 From: baesparza at GMAIL.COM (Bradley A. Esparza) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:45:38 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251837.l9PIbiSu017714@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This reminds me of the choice I make when I decide to use "difficult" instead of "hard". I find myself constantly catching myself so I won't possibly be taken as a raconteur. On 10/25/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 10/25/2007 02:03 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if > someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must > acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. > > > As Charles Doyle wrote: > > except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds > women of sexual arousal > > > Female embarrassment about sexual arousal? (Although I surmise that > moistness would be considered by some females -- and males -- as an > advantage.) Perhaps more suited for study by a psychology email list than > ADS-L. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American > Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Bradley A. Esparza "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think." Dorothy Parker, when asked to use the word 'horticulture' in a sentence. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 22:17:06 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:17:06 -0400 Subject: nasal spray flu shot Message-ID: U.S. FDA OKs nasal spray flu shot for very young http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071024/nasal_spray_071024/20071024?hub=Health Evidently "flu shot" has, at least for some users, broadened beyond the "injection" sense of "shot" that I still think of it as having. Perhaps this is under the influence of other non-injection uses of "shot", of which there are of course several. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Oct 25 22:18:37 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:18:37 -0400 Subject: wage in on Message-ID: This one is new to me. I've posted it on the eggcorn forum. A co-worker just said to me, "That's quite a dilemma, and not one I'm going to wage in on." I've found instances of it on the web. The first few: http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B974BDFE2-9AF5-4CE5-8B15-E0C869ACE211%7D&siteid=mktw Check back at guruscorner.com on Wednesday when firebrand Martin Weiss of the Safe Money Report will wage in on the rate cut and its effect on deflation. [probably for "weigh in"] http://www.thegamergene.com/tag/halo-3/ Religious leaders are often quick to wage in on the negative site for the video game debate but not so in this case. [possibly for "wade in"] http://library.thinkquest.org/26638/war/index.html War was also no longer limited to the combatting sides, for foreigners could wage in on one side or another and change completely the dynamics of the conflict. [likely directly affected by "waging war"] http://community.eons.com/groups/topics/internet-dating-after-50---ugh/1/2007/05 I'm going to take a risk here and wage in on a delicate topic that seems to pervade many of these postings [could be weigh or wade] http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nlevina/GOS-spr-06-FTMBa.htm We will wage in on the debate on the pros and cons of global sourcing (offshoring). [probably for "weigh in"] 16,300 total ghits for "wage in on" but not all are examples of this usage -- about 50%, by the look of the first couple of pages of results. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Oct 25 22:29:45 2007 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:29:45 -0700 Subject: nasal spray flu shot In-Reply-To: <200710252218.l9PAkiUe026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What should it properly be called? I'd call it a shot not because I think it's an inoculation, but because I lack a better word that people including me understand...BB On Oct 25, 2007, at 3:17 PM, James Harbeck wrote: > Poster: James Harbeck > > > U.S. FDA OKs nasal spray flu shot for very young > http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071024/ > nasal_spray_071024/20071024?hub=Health > > Evidently "flu shot" has, at least for some users, broadened beyond > the "injection" sense of "shot" that I still think of it as having. > Perhaps this is under the influence of other non-injection uses of > "shot", of which there are of course several. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 23:05:51 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:05:51 -0400 Subject: Fortune Cookies (1901 for Halloween; 1926, Japanese party in Texas) Message-ID: These two "fortune cookies" cites are interesting. The Japanese use is nothing new, but it's an early cite. Fortune cookies for Halloween? ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_cookie Origin San Francisco and Los Angeles both lay claim to the origin of the fortune cookie. Makoto Hagiwara of Golden Gate Park's Japanese Tea Garden in San Francisco is said to have invented the cookie in 1909. while David Jung, founder of the Hong Kong Noodle Company in Los Angeles, is said to have invented them in 1918. ... ... 2 November 1901, Prescott (AZ) Morning Courier, pg. 2: Thursday evening, from 7 to 9 o'clock, Mary, Frank and Gail Gardner entertained quite a number of their little friends at the home of their parents with a Hallowe'en party. Many interesting and laughable games were played. Then came the drawing for the seat of honor at the table. Henry Adams drew the lucky number. He seemed particularly fortunate, as he also drew the pen in the fortune cookies, which denotes that he will be a famous writer. ... ... 10 September 1926, Big Spring (TX) Herald, "Japanese Motif Expressed in Parties for Visitor," pg. 11, col. 2: Fortune cookies were served with the main course, and enclosed in each one was a rhyme or fortune, and pretty Japanese parasols were other plate favors. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Oct 25 23:05:53 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:05:53 -0500 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710250651.l9OIu0s4006580@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that > be that "tidal wave" > is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Oct 25 23:43:36 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:43:36 -0400 Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami Message-ID: Spoken by Horatio: "I had him dead to _his_ rights and lost him." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 00:05:52 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:05:52 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251542.l9PAkieq023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My wife suggests that the women be asked about "hot," after I mentioned to her that, in my lost youth, "hot," when applied to a woman, meant that she had the female equivalent of a boner, i.e. was sexually aroused to the point of being moist and ready for sexual intercourse, or was infected with gonorrhea. It had nothing whatsoever to do with physical attractiveness. -Wilson On 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 01:40:29 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:40:29 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251803.l9PAki52023473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Awright, Charlie, here's watcha got: You got somebody who's nuts. Mildly, but still nuts. She don't like "moist," and she's watcha call a politically-correct female. So she figures the problem ain't with her, it's with the word "moist." She's "offended," so it's gotta be the word's fault. And since she's a woman, that makes it "offensive to women." In your specific context of college youth, the others, as soon as they heard the phrase "offensive to women," probly figured it's smarter to agree, especially if any of them have the same funny kink about "moist." JL Jesse Sheidlower wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 01:10:42PM -0400, Charles Doyle wrote: > > Thanks for the links, Jesse! I'm still mystified by the > evident aversion to the word (even out of context)--and the > vehemence of that aversion--but at least I'm reassured that > my students are consonant with the times. I also am mystified by the objection to this word--it's as if someone said that "table" was to be avoided--but must acknowledge that the feeling seem genuine. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 01:42:16 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:42:16 -0700 Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami In-Reply-To: <200710252343.l9PMm7X4026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That must mean "oblivious to his First Amendment rights. But then I had to give that damn Miranda warning." JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Heard on CSI: Miami ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spoken by Horatio: "I had him dead to _his_ rights and lost him." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 01:56:33 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 21:56:33 -0400 Subject: nasal spray flu shot In-Reply-To: <200710252229.l9PAkiQb023477@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >What should it properly be called? I'd call it a shot not because I >think it's an inoculation, but because I lack a better word that >people including me understand...BB Nasal spray vaccine (or vaccination). Or nasal spray inoculation, I suppose. Or flu vaccine nasal spray -- I'm sure that would work fine. I think "vaccine" gets used enough now that it's not too high level for news. Perhaps not everyone agrees. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 02:09:41 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:09:41 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes Message-ID: >So the mathematicians have redefined "cube"? I would call the >four-sided solid a "pyramid." Not so much the mathematicians as certain education policy makers, I'd say. Ones who can't seem to recognize an opportunity to teach "tetrahedron," "heptahedron," etc. I don't think four-sided dice (number tetrahedra) roll all that well, but they seem to serve the purpose for many role-playing games. The ones they use (along with various other aleatory polyhedra -- octohedra, decahedra, dodecahedra, icosahedra, and of course cubes, all of which are generally referred to as X-sided dice in my experience) have rounded vertices. They land with point up, of course, so the numbers are written along the bottom edge of each face -- i.e., each face has three numbers, one for each edge. One way of getting around the rolling problem and still generate a number out of 4 is of course to use octohedra with two of each number. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Oct 26 02:18:47 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:18:47 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710251858.l9PAkiGE026801@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Its too bad they didn't adopt RPG nomenclature for dice; I would have liked it >if the example would had read "John was tossing 1d4 and 1d7." LOL! Now I remember that terminology! Obviously I was never a major RPGer, and I haven't touched one in a couple of decades. The problem would be what the d stands for... the word that was deemed too evocative of gambling in the first place (the editors who informed me of this were of the mind that that was hte issue; as to the die/dice plural issue, that would have been something that the editors would have been in a position to exercise rather more influence on -- it's the political stuff that overrules). James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From kdaly973 at VERIZON.NET Fri Oct 26 02:35:51 2007 From: kdaly973 at VERIZON.NET (Kate Daly) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251644.l9PAkitV026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. -Kate At 12:44 PM 10/25/2007, William Salmon wrote: >I have heard it used offensively with the diminutive suffix. > >WS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 26 03:16:58 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:16:58 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <0JQH00IQBZ7WLO88@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM -0400 10/25/07, Kate Daly wrote: >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, >the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I >think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other >people to throw. >-Kate Except that as we've now learned from the Language Log postings (not to mention the existence of the "I HATE the word MOIST" facebook group), she's hardly alone in this. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 06:39:08 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:39:08 +0000 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710252306.l9PMob3J026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I picture myself asking Prof. Irwin Corey which term is better for American Powers that Be to choose for American media, "tidal wave" or "tsunami", and picture his reply as this: You ask which term is better. Let's look at the factors, my friend. 1. Root words. "Tidal wave" is English, and Americans speak English. Not good. Besides "wave is duplicitous. It could mean waving "hi hello" with your hand. Whereas "tsunami" is Japanese. Good. An import. Free trade. No baggage of knowing what words mean. "Tsunami" means "harbor wave". There are lots of harbors. Lots of roots. Lots of harbor canals. Root canals. Root canals are no fun. Tsunamis are no fun. Brilliant logic. 2. Pronunciation. Anybody can say "tidal wave" in America. It's English. Not good. Too simple. Simple things for simple people, I say. But "tsunami" is complex. Do we say the "t" or not. Phonetically they put a (t) in front. Excellent. You get choice, and I'm pro choice. Imagine looking up the word with a beginning parens. Brilliant diversity. In fact the "t" before the "s" to start a word is the latest thing. I tsay it all the time. 3. Precedence. The term "tidal wave" came first by about 30 years. Not good. "Tsunami" is the new term. Newer is better. Look what happened to "brontosaurus." You gotta keep up. In fact I predict "hurricane" will dissappear. It was named "her" because of all the girl names they gave them. But men demanded equal time. So half became "himicanes." Which created a tie. Therefore the word "typhoon" best reflects that tie. And don't you love the "ph" instead of "f" in the word "typhoon". So scientific. Changing Aphrica to Africa was a big mistake. Too tsimple. Less spicey. 4. Impact. Term "tidal wave" has no emotional impact. When you say "hello", you wave. No good. But everybody knows that the most important 3-syllable word in Japanese is "Godzilla". "Godzilla! Godzilla" Run for your life." Now it's "Tsunami! Run for your life!" Great emotional linkage. Looks like tsunami is the obvious winner. Of course there are no Powers that Be anymore to make decisions (except perhaps Rupert Murdock). Oops I hear my wife calling. Coming honey. Gotta go. Tsee you later. (Tstrang, I tseem to have tstarted tsome kind of tsilly lisp!?) Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+ See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:05:53 -0500 > From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > >> Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that >> be that "tidal wave" >> is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" >> means. > > I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite > some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our > mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. > > So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost > Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther > down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 26 13:00:20 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:00:20 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 14:11:07 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:11:07 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710260006.l9PMob7X026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's pretty much right, Wilson. It was also true in my own youth, and in Chaucer's youth too, according to a reputable slang dictionary. It should be observed, though, that the modern sense of "sexy" could occasionally be heard in the 1930s. James T. Farrell used it a couple of times. Paul Muni in _Scarface_ (1932) takes a gander at lissome Karen Morley and sez, "That's hot!" His sidekick replies informatively,"That's Poppy." Reason: popularity of "hot" in the '20s to mean great or exciting, though more often in negative constructions, i.e., "not so hot." And cf. "hot mama." But the current nuance wasn't a big deal till ca1980. JL Wilson Gray wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Wilson Gray Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My wife suggests that the women be asked about "hot," after I mentioned to her that, in my lost youth, "hot," when applied to a woman, meant that she had the female equivalent of a boner, i.e. was sexually aroused to the point of being moist and ready for sexual intercourse, or was infected with gonorrhea. It had nothing whatsoever to do with physical attractiveness. -Wilson On 10/25/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles Doyle > Subject: The m-word > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & Cleopatra_) is offensive to women. Some of the other women in the class concurred (not hostilely--just as a matter of information for a clueless male professor). I was somewhat flabergasted, and nobody would articulate a reason for the offensiveness--except for one male student's eventual suggestion that the word reminds women of sexual arousal. That association is not at all beside-the-point of my description of Egypt in the play--but why would such a connotation make the word offensive per se? As far as I could ascertain, "damp" and "wet" don't carry whatever stigma attaches to "moist." What am I missing here?! > > --Charlie > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Fri Oct 26 14:18:12 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:18:12 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710261302.l9QAnGNG015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Charlie, you'll have noticed the current TV commercials that feature A. a bouncing balloon filled with urine, and B. giant anthropomorphic mucus. Market researchers seem to have determined that these images are very appealing to today's prime demographic. They'll move products. (Or "product," as products are so often called on TV.) JL Charles Doyle wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Charles Doyle Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Oct 26 14:36:34 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:36:34 -0400 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" Message-ID: At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": << It reminds me of a saying we used to have in Wyoming, which is, Dogs don't bark at parked cars. >> (Interview in _Time_, 20 Sept. 2007) << And we have a saying in Wyoming, which goes like this, "Dogs don't bark at parked cars." >> (Interview on MSNBC, 11 Oct. 2007) Of course, she is referring to denunciations of her husband. Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? Any information will be appreciated! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET Fri Oct 26 14:36:21 2007 From: urdang at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Laurence Urdang) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 07:36:21 -0700 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710261418.l9QAkRMB015119@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It is increasingly difficult finding a TV program in which the main competition isn't something like projectile vomiting; but if one watches things like the Last Comic Standing and listens to what passes these days for humor, if is not hard to see why. L. Urdang Old Lyme Jonathan Lighter wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Jonathan Lighter Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charlie, you'll have noticed the current TV commercials that feature A. a bouncing balloon filled with urine, and B. giant anthropomorphic mucus. Market researchers seem to have determined that these images are very appealing to today's prime demographic. They'll move products. (Or "product," as products are so often called on TV.) JL Charles Doyle wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Charles Doyle Subject: Re: The m-word ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You'd think that "misty" and "moisty" might be distantly cognate, but evidently they aren't. "Mist" seems to go back to an IU root meaning "urinate" (cf. "micturate"), whereas "moist" comes from L "mucus"! Pokorny's note on the root "meug-" is interesting: 'slimy, slippery; with derivatives referring to various wet or slimy substances and conditions'; possible derivatives include OE "smok" ('smock'), MHG "smuck" ('clothing', from whence "Schmuck" 'jewel'!) and the Greek-derived "-mycin" words, having to do with fungus or mold. I'm starting to think the word "moist" IS disgusting--and "misty" too! Just to clarify: My student and her sisters were not being outraged at my use of the word--rather amused that I should be so clueless as not to recognize the indelicacy of it. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:35:51 -0400 >From: Kate Daly > >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other people to throw. >-Kate ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 17:26:28 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:26:28 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? Message-ID: What do the experts say about -- In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God a No. 1 enemy." Who vs. that? Has vs. have? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Fri Oct 26 18:28:28 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:28:28 -0700 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710261726.l9QHQXDk007865@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Joel Berson wrote: > What do the experts say about -- > > In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of > emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War > marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God > a No. 1 enemy." > > Who vs. that? "that" (or "which") is standard, but relative "who" is not infrequently used with heads referring to human institutions, organizations, etc.: "a company who cares about you". an actual cite: When Zucker telegraphed the German firm who made and packed his special rocket fuel, he discovered that the Nazis had banned its export. (Christopher Turner, "Letter Bombs", _Cabinet_ 23 (Fall 2006), p. 29) i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) not in MWDEU, apparently. > Has vs. have? only "has". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Oct 26 19:27:31 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:27:31 -0400 Subject: Hear on the Judges: Message-ID: "Bowling pin" used to mean the shape of a bottle of Budweiser "Ice." -Wilson -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Oct 26 19:41:31 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:41:31 +0000 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" Message-ID: Dogs DO bark at a number of unpleasant things--loud mouth jerks, for example. I suspect that this silly saying is a product of Mrs. Cheney's weak-minded imagination. If not, it is typical of her mind that she would have thought it clever. ------Original Message------ From: Charles Doyle Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 26, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: [ADS-L] "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": << It reminds me of a saying we used to have in Wyoming, which is, Dogs don't bark at parked cars. >> (Interview in _Time_, 20 Sept. 2007) << And we have a saying in Wyoming, which goes like this, "Dogs don't bark at parked cars." >> (Interview on MSNBC, 11 Oct. 2007) Of course, she is referring to denunciations of her husband. Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? Any information will be appreciated! --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 21:22:04 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:22:04 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <0920CA9F-EBCF-44D3-A0B5-7FD6B37AE109@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 02:28 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 26, 2007, at 10:26 AM, Joel Berson wrote: > >>What do the experts say about -- >> >>In a trial for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of >>emotional distress by protestors at the funeral of an Iraq War >>marine, a defendant said "He's fighting for a nation who has made God >>a No. 1 enemy." >> >>Who vs. that? > >"that" (or "which") is standard, but relative "who" is not >infrequently used with heads referring to human institutions, >organizations, etc.: "a company who cares about you". an actual cite: > >When Zucker telegraphed the German firm who made and packed his >special rocket fuel, he discovered that the Nazis had banned its export. > (Christopher Turner, "Letter Bombs", _Cabinet_ 23 (Fall 2006), p. 29) > >i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when >it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples >systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the >spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent >development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) > >not in MWDEU, apparently. > >>Has vs. have? > >only "has". Well, with "nation who" I somehow wanted "have". Interesting, to me -- subconscious association of "who" with people, and thus plural? And, I assume, not "has" but "have" in Britain? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 21:35:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:35:03 -0400 Subject: "hard (cider)" 1786 antedates OED2 1789- Message-ID: Take a six quart jug of old hard cider, put therein a pint of country mustard seed, one double handful of parsley roots, one double handful of lignum vitae shavings, add one double handful of horseradish roots; let them simmer together over a slow fire 48 hours, when it will be fit for use. [From the Albany Gazette. FYI, a medicine for the cure of the Dropsy.] 3/2 "hard" (a) antedates OED2 sense 14.c 1789- Vermont Journal, 1786 25 April Early American Newspapers ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Oct 26 23:29:32 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:29:32 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki Message-ID: From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Oct 26 23:47:07 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:47:07 -0400 Subject: "hard (cider)" 1786 antedates OED2 1789- In-Reply-To: <200710262135.l9QLZRC0001790@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0400 10/26/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Take a six quart jug of old hard cider, put therein a pint of country >mustard seed, one double handful of parsley roots, one double handful >of lignum vitae shavings, add one double handful of horseradish >roots; let them simmer together over a slow fire 48 hours, when it >will be fit for use. >[From the Albany Gazette. FYI, a medicine for the cure of the Dropsy.] > >3/2 >"hard" (a) >antedates OED2 sense 14.c 1789- > >Vermont Journal, 1786 >25 April >Early American Newspapers > I don't know. Both hard and moist; I think this drink is just too off-color for the current age. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 00:24:15 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:24:15 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710262122.l9QI8pfY015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/26/2007 02:28 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > >> [...] >> i find the usage jarring enough that i'm inclined to notice it when >> it goes past me, but i haven't been collecting examples >> systematically. and i don't know anything about the history or the >> spead of the usage. (so i tend to think of it as a recent >> development, or a recently spreading one, but i'm probably wrong.) >> >> not in MWDEU, apparently. >> >> >>> Has vs. have? >>> >> only "has". >> > > Well, with "nation who" I somehow wanted "have". Interesting, to me > -- subconscious association of "who" with people, and thus plural? > > Here are a few cites from Project Gutenberg. ================ Sir, I place myself upon the Constitution, in the presence of a nation who have the Declaration of Independence read to them every Fourth of July, and profess to believe it. SPEECH OF JOHN HOSSACK, CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF THE FUGITIVE SLAVE LAW, BEFORE JUDGE DRUMMOND, OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, CHICAGO, ILL. NEW YORK: PUBLISHED BY THE AMERICAN ANTI-SLAVERY SOCIETY. 1860. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/1/3/9/8/13987/13987-h/13987-h.htm ================ He tried raising sums of money on national credit, and also devised a company who were to lend money to found a great settlement on the Mississippi, the returns from which were to be enormous. HISTORY OF FRANCE. BY CHARLOTTE M. YONGE. NEW YORK: D. APPLETON AND COMPANY 1, 3, AND 5 BOND STREET. 1882. http://mirror.pacific.net.au/gutenberg/1/7/2/8/17287/17287-h/17287-h.htm ================ They have been received with rapture by a nation who know how to appreciate every testimony which the United States have given to them of their affection. /The Representatives of the French People composing the Committee of Public Safety of the National Convention, charged by the law of the 7th Fructidor with the direction of foreign relations, to the Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled/. /(October 21, 1794)/ in: James D. Richardson, A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents Section 1 (of 3) of Volume 10. 1902 [unclear where the translation comes from, if the original was sent in French] http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/gutenberg/1/4/5/8/14584/14584-h/14584-h.htm ================= There is a bondage which is worse to bear Than his who breathes, by roof, and floor, and wall, Pent in, a Tyrant's solitary Thrall: 'Tis his who walks about in the open air, One of a Nation who, henceforth, must wear Their fetters in their Souls. For who could be, Who, even the best, in such condition, free From self-reproach, reproach which he must share With Human Nature? Never be it ours To see the Sun how brightly it will shine, And know that noble Feelings, manly Powers, Instead of gathering strength must droop and pine, And Earth with all her pleasant fruits and flowers Fade, and participate in Man's decline. (October, 1803) Poems in Two Volumes, Volume 1 / Wordsworth, William, 1770-1850 http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/etext05/pwdw110.htm ============================ > And, I assume, not "has" but "have" in Britain? > My gut feeling is that this is not correct for contemporary British English for nations -- they take singular agreement, and so does the noun _nation_. Except if you're really talking about sports teams ("England have fired manager after failing to qualify for cup" and the like). Companies are a different matter: they are usually referred to with plural verbs, though, so I'm less sure about what would happen with "a company who". Well let's look ... from the Guardian Unlimited archives ================ In line with this, as a director of a company who received funding from the Arts Council, I was initially asked to be on a consultation panel about arts council funding and told I would received a phone call to discuss this. [This is about a theatre company] Theatre blog reader comment http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/theatre/2007/06/the_olympics_killed_my_theatre.html#comment-549350 ================ Highly specialised IT and Technology company who specialise in data and networking and hosting solutions have a new role for a marketing manager to join them. [Job ad. Doesn't shock me at all for BrE. There are more in the jobs section.] http://jobs.guardian.co.uk/job/298318/marketing-manager-it-experts ================ Mark Serwotka, general secretary of the Public and Commercial Services Union, said: " Not only has the voluntary sector been used as Trojan horse by the private sector, but the government has handed a large chunk of work to a firm which is failing and mired in controversy in Australia. The government is giving a green light to a company who we fear will try and circumvent TUPE regulations." [Article, business section] http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2175500,00.html ================ "Waterstone's is, after all, a bookseller, whose stock in trade is the purveying of opinion, not all of it palatable to those concerned. The action that has been taken so far bears more resemblance to the behaviour of an American fast-food chain than a company who deal in intellectual freedoms and the concerns of a pluralist liberal society." [Article, technology section] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2005/jan/12/books.newmedia ================ Still, rare in normal journalistic writing -- none of the above examples falls into that category. So let's look for contemporary BrE examples of "nation who": =============== Yet despite all this, New Zealand remain a magnificent rugby nation who are bound to win the World Cup again soon. [Sports blog comment -- this is the nation = team situation. Always plural in BrE. BTW, they did.] http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/09/15/its_now_or_never_for_new_zeala.html =============== While the strategy may differ, Moore's overarching political take on America remains the same and can be summarised thus: the American people are a decent and basically fair-minded nation who are either ill-informed or misinformed and certainly misled into behaving otherwise. [Article, film section -- plural agreement because of "people"] http://film.guardian.co.uk/interview/interviewpages/0,,1055562,00.html =============== As a nation who has destroyed more languages than any other, and along with them so many cultural nuances and aspirations, we have no right to judge the catalan wish for lingual self determination. [CIF reader comment] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/giles_tremlett/2006/06/small_earthquake_in_catalonia.html#comment-92241 =============== I didn't say that I agreed, merely that that is the likely response from a nation who is intent on gaining the technology and who won't acknowledge even a large reduction as being in good spirit [CIF reader comment] http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/kate_hudson/2006/06/neither_independent_nor_a_dete.html#comment-96374 =============== etc. Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. Cheers, Chris Waigl ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 00:32:39 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:32:39 +0100 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710262329.l9QI8poW015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? Chris Waigl who'd expect green and, well, blue ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 01:11:35 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:11:35 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710270058.l9QKf0Wp009656@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/26/2007 08:24 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > >> Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. >> > > And some from British sources. I see a mixed bag of singular and > plural, and one quote that used singular with "firm" and plural with > "company." Do I sense, from this small sample, a plurality for the > plural with "nation"? > > *Well yes, sure, but it's overwhelmingly singular in the contemporary sources except in BrE when "nation" is a metonymy for "national football/cricket/rugby/whatever team". Or of course in cases like "the X people are a nation who [+ plural verb]". (The firm/singular, company/plural example was from a quote that sounded as if it had been re-written quite a bit. I imagine the original spoken statement was a little muddled.) Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 Chris Waigl * ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Sat Oct 27 01:17:56 2007 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris F Waigl) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 02:17:56 +0100 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <200710270112.l9QKf0dD009656@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Chris F Waigl wrote: > Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 > > Reading through those again, there *are* a few that use the plural when "nation" carries the principal sense of the sum of its people. Chris ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 27 01:01:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:01:03 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 08:49 PM, you wrote: >>Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": >>> >>>"Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, >>>nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the >>>pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. >>> >>>These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the >>>khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. >>Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? >> >>Chris Waigl >>who'd expect green and, well, blue >I used to wear a "loden coat" in elementary school (so my mother >always called it), and it was a kind of heavy olive-greenish brown >wool. But I agree that it's hard to imagine nautical blue as a shade >of brown. Well, wait 'til you receive your Eddie Bauer catalog -- yes, it's coming, along with all the other holiday season junk mail -- and tell me how well "nautical blue" (Let alone loden) has been rendered in its printing! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Oct 27 00:58:28 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:58:28 -0400 Subject: "a nation who has ..."? In-Reply-To: <4722852F.1000802@lascribe.net> Message-ID: At 10/26/2007 08:24 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >Also, note all the plurals above from American sources. And some from British sources. I see a mixed bag of singular and plural, and one quote that used singular with "firm" and plural with "company." Do I sense, from this small sample, a plurality for the plural with "nation"? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Oct 27 00:49:45 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:49:45 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <47228727.1000704@lascribe.net> Message-ID: >Joel S. Berson wrote: >> From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": >> >>"Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, >>nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the >>pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. >> >>These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the >>khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. >> >Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? > >Chris Waigl >who'd expect green and, well, blue > I used to wear a "loden coat" in elementary school (so my mother always called it), and it was a kind of heavy olive-greenish brown wool. But I agree that it's hard to imagine nautical blue as a shade of brown. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ROSESKES at AOL.COM Sat Oct 27 04:04:49 2007 From: ROSESKES at AOL.COM (Your Name) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 00:04:49 EDT Subject: "a nation who has ..."? Message-ID: Well, in that case it's "people" that's plural, not "nation." Rosemarie |||||||//////__ __ __ __ __ The domino effect at work. In a message dated 10/26/2007 9:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chris at LASCRIBE.NET writes: > *Well yes, sure, but it's overwhelmingly singular in the contemporary sources except in BrE when "nation" is a metonymy for "national football/cricket/rugby/whatever team". Or of course in cases like "the X people are a nation who [+ plural verb]". (The firm/singular, company/plural example was from a quote that sounded as if it had been re-written quite a bit. I imagine the original spoken statement was a little muddled.) Here is more -- the Guardian search I used: http://dwarfurl.com/74cd4 Chris Waigl * ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 27 12:13:20 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:13:20 -0400 Subject: wild hair/hare Message-ID: Kevin Drum, on his "Political Animal" blog on cbsnews.com, tries to figure out whether the idiom is "wild hair (up one's butt)" or "wild hare": http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/26/politics/animal/main3418643.shtml He quotes, among others, "word maven Doug Wilson", with a link to a 2002 ADS-L thread. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Oct 27 12:16:47 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:16:47 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" Message-ID: An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28vajayjay.html?ex=1351224000&en=63ef009ac890309a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss Geoff Nunberg and John McWhorter are quoted. --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Oct 27 15:43:22 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 11:43:22 -0400 Subject: wild hair/hare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Since 2002, more information has appeared (bigger databases) and I am no longer so mystified. I think I may have been helped by a correspondent on this but I can't remember for sure, so thanks to whomever if so! Of course the problem with "wild hair" is that a simple hair, wild or tame, in the anus or rectum would not be distressing or exceptional. The metaphor is less confusing, however, if one notes that "a wild hair" is/was used for "a troublesome erratic hair, ingrown, inflamed, and/or irritating [e.g. to the eye]". I've never heard the expression in this sense and it may be regional or obsolescent for all I know. At Google Books, from 1922, referring to an apical [tooth] abscess (Smith, _Heart Affections_): <> Here (and in similar examples IIRC) "wild hair" = "[?ingrown] hair associated with a boil or abscess". Now it's easy to see how "have a wild hair" might mean "be irritated/agitated/etc." In particular "He can't sit still; he must have a wild hair on his ass/butt [i.e., either buttock or perianal region]" is perfectly understandable. I speculate that the specific use of "up" however MAY be gratuitous rudeness, since "up one's ass" would usually (AFAIK) refer to an internal location where there are no hairs growing (AFAIK). -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 17:26:04 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:26:04 -0400 Subject: southmore In-Reply-To: <200709242256.l8OGunnJ007473@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another thought on "southmore" (unless someone's already said it and I've forgotten). The other three "year names" are interpretable: "junior" and "senior" are used in all sorts of contexts, and "freshman" has recognizeable parts, which can be reasonably interpreted together as "someone who is new here". Only "sophomore" is opaque, and that imbalance may add motivation for "southmore". m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 27 17:37:33 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:37:33 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710120036.l9BNViLA013200@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml in the article's sixth paragraph: Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what they'd seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that they saw gruesome things." stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ (the other) doug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 18:52:55 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:52:55 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" In-Reply-To: <200710250801.l9P09lgR026286@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not the "power's that be"? m a m ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 18:57:17 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:57:17 -0400 Subject: non-6-sided dice > number cubes In-Reply-To: <200710260210.l9PMobF1026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, James Harbeck wrote: > > > I don't think four-sided dice (number tetrahedra) roll all that well, > but they seem to serve the purpose for many role-playing games. Gamers toss them so they turn in the air. m a m, who raised his children with D&D ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:03:04 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:03:04 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251945.l9PH7bYx026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What's wrong with being a storyteller? Or does being French make it dirty? m a m On 10/25/07, Bradley A. Esparza wrote: > > This reminds me of the choice I make when I decide to use "difficult" > instead of "hard". I find myself constantly catching myself so I won't > possibly be taken as a raconteur. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:04:40 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:04:40 -0400 Subject: "Dogs don't bark at parked cars" In-Reply-To: <200710261436.l9QAnGc6015249@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If she's from there, she may have heard it back home and not (or not much) anywhere else. m a m On 10/26/07, Charles Doyle wrote: > > At least twice recently, Lynne Cheyney has quoted this "saying": Does anyone have any knowledge of the saying as a proverb? There are a few > hundred Google hits--some dating from at least as far back as the early > 1900s. Is the Wyoming connection just Mrs. Cheney's effort to seem folksy? > > Any information will be appreciated! > > --Charlie > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thnidu at GMAIL.COM Sat Oct 27 19:08:14 2007 From: thnidu at GMAIL.COM (Mark Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:08:14 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710271737.l9RAkVOr020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". m a m On 10/27/07, Doug Harris wrote: > > 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st > ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml > in the article's sixth paragraph: > Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, > asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew > their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what > they'd > seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I > assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that > they saw gruesome things." > > stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ > > (the other) doug > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sat Oct 27 20:04:42 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:04:42 +0000 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: Certain Victorian folks are reported to have hated the word "leg" so much that the put stockings on their pianos There seems to be a straightforward Freudian explanation for such lexical aversions, nor is it therefore surprising that people would independently be afflicted with identical aversions. I'd expect "luggage" to be rarer than "moist." . ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 25, 2007 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [ADS-L] The m-word At 10:35 PM -0400 10/25/07, Kate Daly wrote: >As in the old nursery rhyme "One misty moisty morning"? > >And btw - speaking as a woman, and a feminist from way back at that, >the idea of "moist" being offensive sounds pretty silly to me. I >think the original poster's student was making snowballs for other >people to throw. >-Kate Except that as we've now learned from the Language Log postings (not to mention the existence of the "I HATE the word MOIST" facebook group), she's hardly alone in this. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Sat Oct 27 21:52:08 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:52:08 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <200710271908.l9RAkVTG025953@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes it does, but if you check the other definition (pimp -- v. (by senior medical personnel) to badger a student doctor with medical questions (as a teaching method).) . . . it kinda sorta fits that (quoted) usage. (the other) doug Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". m a m On 10/27/07, Doug Harris wrote: > > 'Interesting use of the word _pimp_ in today's LA Times > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-heffernan27oct27,0,164764.st > ory?coll=la-tot-entertainment&track=ntothtml > in the article's sixth paragraph: > Heffernan says she steered her conversation away from hot-button topics, > asking instead about family, where the Marines were from, how they knew > their friends. The subject sometimes turned to the specifics of what > they'd > seen. "They really resent almost being pimped for information like that. I > assumed that they maybe killed somebody in the act of duty. I assumed that > they saw gruesome things." > > stretching a definition found in the Double Tongued Dictionary > http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/pimp/ > > (the other) doug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 28 01:41:18 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:41:18 -0700 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710270033.l9QAkRwZ015119@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I guess "nautical blue" is like "navy blue" but less militaristic. I've been aware of "loden" for at least a dozen years, probably more like twenty. As long as "khaki" is back again, I find a U. S. Marine memoir of WWI, published in 1920, actually refers to the 1916 Marine Corps uniform as "khaki." The official name was "forest green," closer to "sage-green," as I see it. JL Chris F Waigl wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: Chris F Waigl Subject: Re: The latest in khaki ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel S. Berson wrote: > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? Chris Waigl who'd expect green and, well, blue ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 04:26:41 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:26:41 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" In-Reply-To: <200710271226.l9RAkVE9020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Different strokes for different folks, I reckon. -Wilson On 10/27/07, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Zimmer > Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by > "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/fashion/28vajayjay.html?ex=1351224000&en=63ef009ac890309a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss > > Geoff Nunberg and John McWhorter are quoted. > > > --Ben Zimmer > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 28 04:52:05 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 00:52:05 -0400 Subject: Tattoo Parlour Pimping (NOT) In-Reply-To: <04fd01c818e3$9fc4d960$05fea8c0@Seamus> Message-ID: >Sounds like a mistake for "pumped". I agree. But I can't be sure. As for "pimping" during medical training, here is the classic reference, I think, from JAMA: http://www.neonatology.org/pearls/pimping.html [JAMA is a *major* medical journal.] I think in this context "pimp [someone]" = "ask pimp questions of [someone]". A "pimp question" is a difficult and potentially embarrassing question, perhaps involving arcane or extraneous lore (at least in the opinion of the pimpee). Why "pimp"? There is of course an acronym etymology available ("put in my place") ... probably just as reliable as other acronym etymologies. My casual speculation is that "pimp question" = "question asked by a pimp" ... or "pimp [someone]" = "behave like a pimp toward [someone]" ... with "pimp" in its older [figurative] sense of "despicable person" or so. But I'm not at all sure of this. The notion that the "pimp question" is asked in order to educate the questioner is not at all plausible according to my (limited and not necessarily representative) experience. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Sun Oct 28 05:15:06 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:15:06 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710272005.l9RAkVVR020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just by the way, my wife, a 37-year-old Canadian university administrator, has no problem with the word "moist" (she says she dislikes "dry" more, in fact). And she says people like the students who proclaim it to be offensive to women make her feel embarrassed to be a woman. Making snowballs. Yep. I like that one. Gonna use it myself sometime, for sure. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 06:19:02 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:19:02 -0400 Subject: Cheese Fries (Chili Cheese F ries; Jalape=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=F1o?= Cheese Fries) Message-ID: I just did a long posting on "cheese fries." The Food Timeline (Jan. 2007 post below) couldn't find "chili cheese fries" before 1988, but I found a December 1986 citation using Google News Archives. Maybe someone with FACTIVA can do better. ... Robb Walsh's latest book calls jalape?o cheese fries a "quintessential Texas side dish." I'll be sure to include them in a Texas Food Museum that doesn't exist. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/cheese_fries_chili_cheese_fries_jalapeno_cheese_fries/ ... Entry from October 28, 2007 Cheese Fries (Chili Cheese Fries; Jalape?o Cheese Fries) The origin of "cheese fries" (cheese added to french fries0 is in dispute. The dish is claimed by both Philadelphia and Chicago, dating from the early 1980s. Hostess distributed frozen "cheese fries" as early as 1975. Texas-style ingredients were soon added, making "chili cheese fries" and "jalape?o cheese fries." Texas food author Robb Walsh calls jalape?o cheese fries a "quintessential Texas side dish." Wikipedia: French Fries French fries (North America; sometimes also uncapitalized as "french fries"[1] or simply "fries"[2]), or chips (United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland, and most Commonwealth nations), are pieces of potato that have been cut into batons and deep-fried. (...) United States In the United States, the most popular condiment for fries is ketchup. Mustard is another common condiment, with malt vinegar mainly available at retaurants which serve fish and chips. Fries are sometimes coated with melted cheese, called cheese fries. This can be in combination with chili, making chili cheese fries. Variations of cheese fries include fries covered with Cheez Whiz, mozzarella, Swiss cheese, or garlic and cheese fries (cheese with garlic mayonnaise). 14 May 1975, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 39 ad: 150 GR. PKG. HOSTESS CHEESE FRIES 38c 4 December 1975, Winnipeg (Manitoba, Canada) Free Press, pg. 55 ad: HOSTESS SNACKS 300 GRAM PKG. Cheese Fries of Cheese Sticks .68 17 September 1975, Appleton (WI) Post-Crescent, "Football Strategy at Home" by Lillian Mackesy, pg. C1, col. 1: CHEESE FRIES 1 cups fried potato snack sticks 1 tablespoon vegetable oil 2 tablespoons grated Parmesan cheese 1 teaspoon onion powder 1 teaspoon parsley flakes Place potato snacks in center of 18-inch square of aluminum foil. Heat oven to 350 degrees. Sprinkle snacks with oil and toss gently to cover. Add remaining ingredients and mix until well-coated. Fold edges of foil loosely around fries. Place on rack in preheated oven (or on rack over hot coals on outdoor grill) and heat for about 10 to 15 minutes, until heated through. Toss once or twice during heating. Recipe makes about 4 servings to go with hamburgers or other meats. 9 July 1980, Elyria (OH) Chronicle-Telegram, pg. C6 ad: Suncrisp - Butter, Onion, Cheese FRIES 20-oz. Pack 79c 14 July 1981, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 3A, pg. 8: Tube Steak Palace, 2643 Hirshoff, Rolling Meadows. (...) ...onion rings, desserts and cheese fries. 9 May 1983, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, pg. 10A, col. 5: Crafts, a video arcade and a variety of foods from hot dogs and cheese fries to cotton candy will be available. 12 March 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, pg. A1: ...night to get some cheese fries at the Dip Stix restaurant on the Boardwalk. (Atlantic City?ed.) 30 August 1984, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Junk Food of the '80s: CHeese edges out salt and sugar as top flavoring" by Polly Hurst and Steven Fried (Philadelphia Magazine): In the past, junk food was flavored with one of two things: salt or sugar, and lots of it. The junk food of the '80s, however, is made with (or covered by) cheese. Nachos and cheese fries are among the latest entries in the cheese-junk list, which already included Cheetos, Snack Mate Cheese Spreads (those canned things that make flowers if applied correctly), cheese-filled Combos, nacho-cheese Doritos, Tostitos, Burritos?where will it all end? 5 September 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, "The Cornucopia of New Eats on the Streets" by Dick Polman, pg. E1: Those ex-loyalists who once bought his hot dogs are Now gorging themselves ON everything imaginable - shrimp, flounder, cheese fries, souvlaki, spinach pie, ... 7 October 1984, Philadelphia (PA) Inquirer, "The Maligned Cafeteria" by Marilynn Marter, pg. M1: The foods that got highest marks from the teens included cheese fries,... 7 March 1985, Atlanta (GA) Journal and Constitution, "Chili's could become a second home for burger fanatics," pg. A7: There are plenty of appetizers: Super nachos ($4.95); cheese fries ($2.95);... 15 August 1986, Chicago (IL) Daily Herald, section 6, pg. 9, col. 3: For 20 cents extra, you can have cheese fries. For these, the fries are squirted with a processed cheese sauce that just makes them soggy. 16 August 1985, Doylestown (PA) Daily Intelligencer, "Pat's Steaks" by Glenn N. Kaup, pg. 42, col. 5: Along with sandwiches, the restaurants offer criss-cross fries and cheese fries. 10 December 1986, Los Angeles (CA) Daily News: Everyone you know goes," said Crismon, a Granada Hills resident who usually orders chili cheese fries at the shop. (Primo's Specialty Sandwich Shop?ed.) 8 March 1987, New York (NY) Times, "A Road Not Often Taken" (Jane & Michael Stern of "Road Food") by Marian Burros, pg. 312: THOSE WHO ASPIRE TO THE American version of beurre blanc and puff pastry don't want to hear about cheese fries and Coca-Cola cake. 8 September 1988, Miami (FL) Herald, "Joe BelAir's transports you to happier days; vinyl booths and chili dogs put you back in the '50s" by Alison Oresman, pg. 2E: ...cheese fries and chili fries are also available. 21 November 1988, Dallas (TX) Morning News: Fuddrucker's has introduced nachos and guacamole and prototype outlets are testing "chili cheese fries" and tacos. 31 August 1989, Atlanta (GA) Journal and Constitution, "Atlanta Couple's Dreams Light Up at Flamers Eatery" by Henrietta Spearman, pg. E6: Side orders range from regular french fries, Cajun fries, chili cheese fries, cheese fries, or fried mushrooms and onion rings priced from 99 cents to $1.29 1 September 1989, Sacramento (CA) , "Burgers so good they could kill you," pg. TK13: Murder Burger also offers something called ""cheese fries.'' (...) I would have liked to have tackled the chili cheese fries,... Google Groups: rec.food.restaurants Newsgroups: rec.food.restaurants From: h... at sp24.csrd.uiuc.edu (William Tsun-Yuk Hsu) Date: 11 Mar 91 22:41:31 GMT Local: Mon, Mar 11 1991 6:41 pm Subject: Re: Chicago restaurants There's a good burger place on the corner of Belmont and Sheffield. Try the guacamole and cheese fries. 15 March 1991, Chicago (IL) Sun-Times, "In thick or thin, they always stick together" by Pat Bruno, pg. 59: Ed Debevic's Short Orders Deluxe, 640 N. Wells (312-664-1707). White Castle Systems, numerous locations in the Chicago area (312-582-7373). While trying to separate three fries that were welded to each other by melted cheese, my wife announced: "Cheese fries were invented by Ed Debevic." "You do know that there is no such person as? 12 April 1991, Chicago (IL) Sun-Times, "Hearts melt for cheese fries" by Pat Bruno, pg. 53: Cheez! My column of March 15 on cheese fries must have been a whiz, as readers really took to writing about their favorites. My favorites: Gold Coast Dogs on North State, Ed Debevic's Short Orders Deluxe on North Wells and White Castle all around town. Google Groups: soc.sulture.canada Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada From: P... at psuvm.psu.edu (Paul D. Shan) Date: 18 Jul 91 12:29:25 GMT Local: Thurs, Jul 18 1991 8:29 am Subject: Re: Canadianisms? Gravy on fries is a semi-common question where I live (Central and/or Western Pennsylvania). What usually gets strange looks except in the place where I was introduced to it is Chili-Cheese Fries. When I get these looks it's usually that they've heard of Chili fries and Cheese fries, but not both. Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: wmar... at STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) Date: 24 Jul 91 15:31:12 GMT Local: Wed, Jul 24 1991 11:31 am Subject: Regional foods: Horseshoe Sandwich Cheese fries (French fries with cheese sauce on them) are fairly common, I believe. This is pretty much in the same line except it puts the sandwich itself under the cheese fries. As I recall, the horseshoe sandwich came in hamburger, ham, and other versions (maybe roast beef? not sure...). Google Groups: ne.food Newsgroups: ne.food From: filip... at husc9.harvard.edu (David Filippi) Date: 27 Feb 92 18:13:35 GMT Local: Thurs, Feb 27 1992 2:13 pm Subject: Chili cheese fries. In my homeland of Southern California, it was my frequent habit to stop at Top's for their transcendent chili-doused boxes of french fries with lots of yellow and white cheese on top. Alas! Stranded in Boston, my cholesterol level is slowly decreasing to normal levels? does anyone know where I could get some chili cheese fries? 24 April 1992, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Jons Grille" review by Lanette Causey: Chili cheese fries were freshly sizzled and smothered in good quality Chili, grated Cheddar, chopped onions and fierce jalapeno slices. Google Books The Low-Fat Fast Food Guide by Jamie Pope and Martin Katahn New York, NY: W. W. Norton & Company 1993 (revised edition, 2000) Pg. 43: chili cheese fries (Del Taco?ed.) 16 January 1993, (Baton Rouge, LA): "I can't get anybody up here who can do jalapeno cheese fries like George's restaurant. They try, but It's just not the same." Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: "Kris" Date: 20 Jan 2007 09:42:24 -0800 Local: Sat, Jan 20 2007 1:42 pm Subject: Re: anyone know when/where chili cheese fries originated? Well, I have no actual proof on this, but at the time I always heard that a hot dog place by Michigan State University started the phenomenon. I think they were referring to Top Dog, which isn't around anymore. But during my college years, it was great to go there at 2 a.m. after a party? Google Groups: rec.food.cooking Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking From: "Doc Martian" Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:34:24 GMT Local: Sun, Jan 21 2007 1:34 am Subject: Re: anyone know when/where chili cheese fries originated? From: Foodtimel... at aol.com To: docmart... at verizon.net Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 1:44 PM Subject: Re: chili cheese fries Doc, The earliest print reference we find for "chili cheese fries" is from 1988. Although the restaurant was based in Chicago, the founders were from Cincinnati and very much taken with their city's chili tradition. "The Near North eatery is named Coney Dog, but has nothing to do with New York. It serves Cincinnati-style chili, but it doesn't call it that on the menu. Confused? No, problem. The selections are very simple. They've got chili and they've got chili dogs.Craig McCoy and Randy Reynolds, a pair of out-of-towners who graduated from Northwestern University in 1984, returned to open a tiny, fast-food place in a storefront in April. With a fondness for Cincinnati-style chili, but the smarts not to call it that for fear of offending Chicagoans, the dish is billed as "chili spaghetti," served 2-way ($2.35), 3-way ($2.60), 4-way ($2.85) or 5-way ($2.95)...McCoy and Reynolds make their own french fries from Idaho potatoes. They are plump and not greasy. But don't stop. Coney Dog has cheese fries ($1.50) to beat all others. The fries are covered with melted Cheddar cheese-the real kind-sour cream, onions and jalapeno peppers. The cheapeaters' favorite, however, was the order of chili cheese fries ($1.80), everything that can come with the cheese fries plus a smothering of chili." --- CONEY DOG 'CHILI SPAGHETTI' STILL TASTY BY ANY OTHER NAME; [NORTH SPORTS FINAL, CN Edition] Manuel Galvan. Chicago Tribune (pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 25, 1988. pg. 36 According to the U.S. Patent and Trademark database (http://www.uspto.gov) "Chili cheese fries" are not a registered trademark. We sent a note to Skyline asking when they introduced this item to their menu. Hopefully, they will respond. North American fast-food dishes combining cheese, fries & other toppings dates back at least to 1957. About French Canadian Poutine (c. 1957): http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-1371-8372/life_society/canadian_food/cli We will be in touch when we hear back from Skyline. ----------------------------------- Lynne Olver (IACP), editor The Food Timeline http://www.foodtimeline.org Serious Eats Cook the Book: Jalape?o Cheese Fries Posted by Ed Levine, May 10, 2007 at 5:00 PM Here's the penultimate recipe of the week from Robb Walsh's Texas Cowboy Cookbook. This is a "quintessential Texas side dish," Robb says, "that combines classic American fries with Tex-Mex chile con queso and jalape?os." Make sure to bookmark this recipe so you have it handy; you can serve it alongside tomorrow's tenderloin. And, remember, if you'd like to lasso yourself a copy of the book that these fries come from, throw your hat into our cookbook giveaway contest. Jalape?o Cheese Fries - serves 4 - Ingredients 2 pounds russet potatoes 2 1/2 cups peanut oil 2 jalape?os, seeded and sliced 1 onion, sliced Salt 1 cup Chile con Queso (recipe follows), or sub in one 15-ounce jar of Cheez Whiz 1/4 cup pickled jalape?o slices (...) Chile con Queso - makes about 2 cups - Ingredients 1 pound Velveeta cheese, cut into 1-inch cubes 1 can Ro-tel tomatoes ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 06:31:45 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 02:31:45 -0400 Subject: The latest in khaki In-Reply-To: <200710280141.l9RAkVir020030@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >From my years in the Army in Germany, I recall that lodenjackets made by the company that invented the article of clothing, known in Britspeak as a "duffel coat," I think, came in a single color called by the PX "loden green." I'm not sure what the color was called in German, "lodengruen"? Even by the late 'Fifties, English was already the language of choice. GI's called it "the magic language," because, for all practical purposes, it could be used anywhere with anyone. Except in France, of course. -Wilson On 10/27/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: The latest in khaki > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I guess "nautical blue" is like "navy blue" but less militaristic. I've been aware of "loden" for at least a dozen years, probably more like twenty. > > As long as "khaki" is back again, I find a U. S. Marine memoir of WWI, published in 1920, actually refers to the 1916 Marine Corps uniform as "khaki." The official name was "forest green," closer to "sage-green," as I see it. > > JL > > Chris F Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Chris F Waigl > Subject: Re: The latest in khaki > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Joel S. Berson wrote: > > From Eddie Bauer's "Holiday Book": > > > > "Casual cotton chinos with Nano-Tex (R)." They come in loden, > > nautical blue, khaki, cognac, black, and (if these are colors for the > > pants and not just belts) black, brown, and light brown. > > > > These all look like various shades of brown in the catalog, and the > > khaki is the lightest -- a coffee with cream shade. > > > > > Even "loden" and "nautical blue"? > > Chris Waigl > who'd expect green and, well, blue > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 12:32:59 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:32:59 -0400 Subject: "Wham, Bam, Thank You, Ma'am" Message-ID: I believe this expression was discussed previously on this list. Here is earlier evidence, passed on to me by Jay Dillon: Thomas Heggen _Mister Roberts: A play_ (1948), page 105: GERHART: Well, there goes the liberty. That sure was a wham-bam-thank you, ma'am! [. . .] But, by God, it was worth it. That liberty was worth anything! Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 12:39:21 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 08:39:21 -0400 Subject: "Intelligent Design" Message-ID: Below is a section of the Wikipedia article on "Intelligent Design," which adds to the information in OED for the modern usage: Prior to the publication of the book Of Pandas and People in 1989, the words "intelligent design" had been used on several occasions as a descriptive phrase in contexts that are unrelated to the modern use of the term. The phrase "intelligent design" can be found in an 1847 issue of Scientific American, in an 1850 book by Patrick Edward Dove,[49] and even in a 1861 letter of Charles Darwin.[50] The words are also used in an address to the 1873 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science by Paleyite botanist George James Allman: No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible ? in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design.[51] The phrase can be found again in Humanism, a 1903 book by one of the founders of classical pragmatism, F.C.S. Schiller: "It will not be possible to rule out the supposition that the process of evolution may be guided by an intelligent design." A derivative of the phrase appears in the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy (1967) in the article on the Teleological argument for the existence of God : "Stated most succinctly, the argument runs: The world exhibits teleological order (design, adaptation). Therefore, it was produced by an intelligent designer." The phrases "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" were used in a 1979 book Chance or Design? by James Horigan[52] and the phrase "intelligent design" was used in a 1982 speech by Sir Fred Hoyle in his promotion of panspermia.[53] The modern use of the words "intelligent design", as a term intended to describe a field of inquiry, began after the Supreme Court of the United States, in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), ruled that creationism is unconstitutional in public school science curricula. A Discovery Institute report says that Charles Thaxton, editor of Of Pandas and People, had picked the phrase up from a NASA scientist, and thought "That's just what I need, it's a good engineering term."[54] In drafts of the book over one hundred uses of the root word "creation", such as "creationism" and "creation science", were changed, almost without exception, to intelligent design.[16] In June 1988 Thaxton held a conference titled Sources of Information Content in DNA in Tacoma, Washington,[44] and in December decided to use the label "intelligent design" for his new creationist movement.[55] Stephen C. Meyer was at the conference, and later recalled that "the term came up".[45] The book Of Pandas ! and People was published in 1989, and is considered to be the first intelligent design book,[56][23] as well as the first place where the phrase "intelligent design" appeared in its present use.[57] Fred Shapiro ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Sun Oct 28 15:14:23 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus Message-ID: "What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." The Caucus, a political group that originally met in Boston, later also known as the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as Caucus. Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 [sic: this should read 1788; Gordon was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon (Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no 'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word cau?-cau-as?u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough 'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England; but there appears to be no direct evidence." Another unpersuasive proposal appears in the American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, drinking vessel." OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, 1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to James Warren (Papers of John Adams, Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree unanimously to push for the same Man." The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers ...in New England By John Eliot (of the Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to assemble in that part of town. It has the effect to awake the _north wind_, and stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this body of men the most important matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of these memoirs has been assured by some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an appeal was signed "The Caucus." That according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is said to have been involved in the Boston Tea Party. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 28 16:41:59 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:41:59 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071028111423.2sazmrw6s8gwogw0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: "Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724" is right -- the (modern) historians say that nothing can be found written about Elisha Cooke Jr.'s 1720s caucus before around the 1770s. But I don't think it is correct to write "later also known as the North End Caucus" -- not the same group. Cooke's faction and strength had dissipated around 1740, there were generally good relations between the Assembly and the governor between 1745 and 1760, and the pre-Revolutionary caucus was I would think a new group, perhaps adopting the word from the most recent and well-remembered period of strong opposition to the royal government. John Adams referred to the 1740 land bank crisis as "rais[ing] a greater ferment in the province than the stamp-act did". (Cooke died in 1737, but the paper currency issue between the Assembly and the governor ran through the 1720s and 1730s before reaching its climax in 1740.) It is perhaps interesting that Adams is the writer of the earliest OED citation for "caucus". Stephen Goranson writes >The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." How does "north end" give a clue to the origin of "caucus"? Also, if it is a reference to the pre-Revolutionary "North End Caucus", that was later than Cooke's. Is there evidence that Cooke's too was a North End group? (Probably answerable from the literature about Cooke, but I don't have sources at hand.) BTW, Dr. J. H. Trumbull's 1872 suggestion of possible derivation from an Algonkin word (saying that "Indian names were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England") sounds plausible to me! (Trumbull was a historian of Connecticut, and also wrote about the "blue laws".) Joel At 10/28/2007 11:14 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >"What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." > >The Caucus, a political group that originally >met in Boston, later also known as >the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as >Caucus. > >Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: >origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; >quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 >[sic: this should read 1788; Gordon >was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon (Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no >'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, >as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption >of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the >more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence >beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the >date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. >Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word >cau?-cau-as?u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough >'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to >talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, >promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the >general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names >were commonly taken by clubs and secret associations in New England; but there >appears to be no direct evidence." Another >unpersuasive proposal appears in the >American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, >drinking vessel." > >OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for >the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, >1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to >James Warren (Papers of John Adams, >Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake >Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree >unanimously to push for the same Man." > >The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." > >A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers >...in New England By John Eliot (of the Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 >p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. >Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that >influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to >assemble in that part of town. It has the effect >to awake the _north wind_, and >stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this >body of men the most important >matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of >these memoirs has been assured by >some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided >by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." > >In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an >appeal was signed "The Caucus." That >according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in >the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is >said to have been involved in the >Boston Tea Party. > >Stephen Goranson >http://www.duke.edu/~goranson > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 18:20:04 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:20:04 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710281642.l9SGgB4c023438@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 12:41 PM -0400 10/28/07, Joel S. Berson wrote: >"Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before >1724" is right -- the (modern) historians say >that nothing can be found written about Elisha >Cooke Jr.'s 1720s caucus before around the 1770s. Not to be confused, I assume, with the Elisha Cook Jr. who helped make the world safe for the new (non-catamite) meaning of "gunsel", as described here in threads of the past. (See also now the THE DREADED LINGUISTICS SECTION, PLACED LAST SO THAT THOSE WHO DISLIKE IT CAN AVOID IT" at the site http://www.triviafirst.com/2006_05_03.html, although without the detailed consideration of the derivation of the first vowel in "gunsel" via German and Yiddish that we attempted to provide.) Now if we just find a connection between caucuses and gunsels... LH >But I don't think it is correct to write "later >also known as the North End Caucus" -- not the >same group. Cooke's faction and strength had >dissipated around 1740, there were generally good >relations between the Assembly and the governor >between 1745 and 1760, and the pre-Revolutionary >caucus was I would think a new group, perhaps >adopting the word from the most recent and >well-remembered period of strong opposition to the royal government. > >John Adams referred to the 1740 land bank crisis >as "rais[ing] a greater ferment in the province >than the stamp-act did". (Cooke died in 1737, >but the paper currency issue between the Assembly >and the governor ran through the 1720s and 1730s >before reaching its climax in 1740.) It is >perhaps interesting that Adams is the writer of >the earliest OED citation for "caucus". > >Stephen Goranson writes >>The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >>while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." > >How does "north end" give a clue to the origin of >"caucus"? Also, if it is a reference to the >pre-Revolutionary "North End Caucus", that was >later than Cooke's. Is there evidence that >Cooke's too was a North End group? (Probably >answerable from the literature about Cooke, but I don't have sources at hand.) > >BTW, Dr. J. H. Trumbull's 1872 suggestion of >possible derivation from an Algonkin word (saying that "Indian names >were commonly taken by clubs and secret >associations in New England") sounds plausible to >me! (Trumbull was a historian of Connecticut, >and also wrote about the "blue laws".) > >Joel > >At 10/28/2007 11:14 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >>"What IS a Caucus-race? said Alice...." >> >>The Caucus, a political group that originally >>met in Boston, later also known as >>the North End Caucus, was evidently named for the north wind, also known as >>Caucus. >> >>Of the noun caucus the Oxford English Dictionary gives "Arose in New England: >>origin obscure. Alleged to have been used in Boston U.S. before 1724; >>quotations go back to 1763. Already in 1774 >>[sic: this should read 1788; Gordon >>was then writing about 1774 in 1788] Gordon >>(Hist. Amer. Rev.) could obtain no >>'satisfactory account of the origin of the name'. Mr. Pickering, in 1816, >>as a mere guess, thought it 'not improbable that caucus might be a corruption >>of caulkers', the word "meetings" being understood'. For this, and the >>more detailed statement quoted in Webster, there is absolutely no evidence >>beyond the similarity of sound; and the word was actually in use before the >>date (1770) of the event mentioned in Webster. >>Dr. J. H. Trumbull (Proc. Amer. >>Philol. Assoc. 1872) has suggested possible derivation from an Algonkin word >>cau?-cau-as?u, which occurs in Capt. Smith's Virginia 23, as Caw-cawaassough >>'one who advises, urges, encourages', from a vb. meaning primarily 'to >>talk to', hence 'to give counsel, advise, encourage', and 'to urge, >>promote, incite to action'. For such a derivation there is claimed the >>general suitability of the form and sense, and it is stated that Indian names >>were commonly taken by clubs and secret >>associations in New England; but there >>appears to be no direct evidence." Another >>unpersuasive proposal appears in the >>American Heritage Dictionary 4th ed.: "possibly from Medieval Latin, caucus, >>drinking vessel." >> >>OED's earliest use for the noun is 1763 and for >>the verb 1850. Here's a May 12, >>1776 verb use in a letter from John Adams to >>James Warren (Papers of John Adams, >>Harvard UP, 1979 v.4 p. 243): "For God's Sake >>Caucuss it, before Hand, and agree >>unanimously to push for the same Man." >> >>The 1788 book, mentioned above, actually includes a clue to the origin, even >>while professing ignorance, by mentioning "the north end of town." >> >>A Biographical Dictionary: Containing a Brief Account of the First Settlers >>...in New England By John Eliot (of the >>Massachusetts Historical Society) 1809 >>p. 472-3 wrote that the caucus "met in a house near the north battery." Dr. >>Warren and another drew up the regulations. As well as insuring that >>influential "mechanicks" were present, "It was a matter of policy likewise to >>assemble in that part of town. It has the effect >>to awake the _north wind_, and >>stir the _waters_ of the _troubled sea_. By this >>body of men the most important >>matters were decided." P. 473: "The writer of >>these memoirs has been assured by >>some of the most prominent characters of this _caucus_, that they were guided >>by the prudence and skilful management of Dr. Warren...." >> >>In the Boston Evening Post, May 4, 1764 an >>appeal was signed "The Caucus." That >>according to Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in >>the United States (1897) p. 10; the Caucus is >>said to have been involved in the >>Boston Tea Party. >> >>Stephen Goranson >>http://www.duke.edu/~goranson >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Sun Oct 28 18:46:34 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:46:34 -0400 Subject: "Remember the a la mode!" (1958) Message-ID: O.T.: Sorry if the previous "cheese fries" subject headline didn't work out, but I tempted fate by adding the word ""jalape?o." I won't use "? la mode" for this headline...I added Lone Star Steakhouse's "Amarillo Cheese Fries" to my entry. They're too popular to pass up. ... ... "Remember the a la mode!" is another fun one and is a good excuse to add the "pie a la mode" antedating to my website...I would correct the Wikipedia, but I can't link to my own page, even if it's been peer-reviewed by American Dialect Society and food scholars...I just added "Pinky Friedman" (cocktail) and "Texas Bloody Mary" to my website. The "bloody mary" entry was especially painful, as it reminds me that I usually don't receive any credit or any compensation for my work. ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie Fruit pies may be served with a scoop of ice cream, a style known in North America as ? la mode. Apple pie is a traditional choice, though any pie with sweet fillings may be served ? la mode. This pie is thought to have been popularized in the mid-1890s in the United States. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/remember_the_a_la_mode_pie_a_la_mode/ ... Entry from October 28, 2007 "Remember the ? la mode!" (pie ? la mode) "Remember the Alamo!" (or, as some insist, "Remember Alamo!") was the famous Texas cry at the victorious Battle of San Jacinto on April 21, 1836. The inevitable "Remember the ? la mode!" joke arrived much later. The American Dairy Association created a "Remember the A La Mode!" month (in August 1959) to urge people to eat more ice cream with their pie. Pie ? la mode (French for "according to the fashion") is pie with ice cream (usually vanilla ice cream or cream). The pie is usually apple pie. The dish appears to have been first served at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. There is a legend that Charles Watson Townsend first invented "pie ? la mode" at the Cambridge Hotel in Cambridge, New York, and later at New York City's Delmonico's restaurant in the mid-1890s (1896 is sometimes given as the date), but this seems unlikely and is not supported by historical evidence. What's Cooking America Apple Pie a la Mode ? In the United States, pie a la mode refers to pie (usually apple pie) served with a scoop of ice cream (usually vanilla) on top. 1890s - According to the historians of the Cambridge Hotel in Washington County New York, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, dined regularly at the Cambridge Hotel during the mid 1890's. Cambridge Hotel (Cambridge, NY) The History of Pie a la Mode (Reprint from Sealtest Magazine) With Apple Pie a la Mode holding such a special niche in the taste of the American public, it is appropriate at this time that we turn to historians long enough to record for prosperity the origin of this delectable delicacy of the day. We have it that the late Professor Charles Watson Townsend, who lived alone in a Main Street apartment during his later years and dined regularly at the Hotel Cambridge, now known as the Cambridge Hotel, was wholly responsible for the blessed business. One day in the mid 90's, Professor Townsend was seated for dinner at a table when the late Mrs. Berry Hall observed that he was eating ice cream with his apple pie. Just like that she named it "Pie a la Mode", and we often wondered why, and thereby brought enduring fame to Professor Townsend and the Hotel Cambridge. Shortly thereafter the Professor visited New York City, taking with him a yen for his favorite dessert new name and all. At the fashionable Delmonico's he nonchalantly ordered Pie a la Mode and when the waiter stated that he never heard of such a thing the Professor expressed a great astonishment. "Do you mean to tell me that so famous an eating place as Delmonico's has never heard of Pie a la Mode, when the Hotel Cambridge, up in the village of Cambridge, NY serves it every day? Call the manager at once, I demand as good service here as I get in Cambridge." The manager came running, and the Professor repeated his remarks. "Delmonico's never intends that any other restaurant shall get ahead of us" said the manager and forthwith ordered that Pie a la Mode be featured on the menu every day. A newspaperman representing the New York Sun was seated at a nearby table and overheard the conversation. The next day the Sun carried a feature story of the incident and it was picked up by many other newspapers. In no time at all, Pie a la Mode became standard on menus all over the country. (Oxford English Dictionary) ? la mode, phr. Cookery. Of a dessert: served with ice-cream. U.S. 1903 Everybody's Mag. VIII. 6/2 Tea and buns,..apple pie ? la mode and chocolate were the most serious menus. 1928 Delineator Cook Bk. 734 'Pie a la mode' is pie served with ice-cream. 1949 L. P. DE GOUY Pie Book 65 Apple Pie? Serve warm or cold, with cheese, a la mode or with whipped cream. 26 April 1893, St. Paul Daily News, pg. 3, col. 5: CULINARY SNAP. Chicagoans Indignant at Probable High Prices for World's Fair Pie. (...) Cold meats were raised from 30 to 35 cents, sandwiches (chicken) from 15 to 20, and salads (chicken) from 40 to 50 cents, and apple pie, a la mode, was raised 20 cents?10 cents for apple pie and ten cents for a la mode. 13 May 1893, Chicago (IL) Daily Inter Ocean, pg. 1: Electric Restaurant (C.) World's Fair Grounds, Jackson Park. Dinner Served from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. May 11, 1893 (...) Apple pie a la mode...20 12 June 1895, Warren (PA) Evening Democrat, pg. 3, col. 3: PIE A LA MODE, 10 Cents. (...)?Chicago Times-Herald. 4 August 1895, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 34: He's got a glass of beer and a great big piece of pie with a chunk of ice cream on top of it. Pie a la mode, I believe they call it. 6 April 1896, Duluth (MN) News-Tribune, "Desserts," pg. 4: Apple pie a la mode?Stew one quart of ripe apples, pared and cut in quarters, putting them through a sieve; add one tablespoonful of butter and beat to a cream. Line a pieplate with feather paste, fill with the apple cream and bake 20 minutes in an even-heated oven. Spread over the apple a thick meringue made of the whites of the eggs and tablespoonfuls of pulverized sugar beaten stiffly and not flavored. Brown slightly in the oven and serve wit ha large spoonful of whipped cream stirred with candied cherries and flavored with almond. 3 May 1896, Chicago (IL) Daily Tribune, pg. 51 ad: Pie a la Mode...5c 21 May 1936, New York (NY) Times, pg. 23: CHARLES W. TOWNSEND Cambridge, N. Y., Man Credited With Originating Pie a la Mode. CAMBRIDGE, Mass., May 20 (AP).?Charles Watson Townsend, one-time concert pianist, who, tradition has it, inadvertently originated pie a la mode here fifty-two years ago, died today in Mary McClellan Hospital. His age was 87. As the story goes, he amazed waiters in a local hotel by asking for ice cream on his pie. He like it so well he ordered it on another occasion in Delmonico's restaurant in New York. The restaurant then added the dessert to its menu. The Hotel Cambridge here specializes in the dish and points out the table at which Townsend was dining when he created it. 27 May 1936, Frederick (MD News, pg. 4, col. 1 editorial: PIE A LA MODE. Surely no list of great American inventors is complete without the name of Charles Watson Townsend, father of pie a la mode, who has passed away in New York Stste at a great age. It is to be regretted that the original creation, due to its perishable nature, is not available for the Smithsonian Institution or some kindred agency. We believe the luncheon clubs and all kinds of citizens who gather at noon in an atmosphere of good fellowship and chicken croquettes followed by apple pie with a top dressing of ice cream, will see the propriety of paying tribute by a moment of silence at their next meetings to the memory of a benefactor. To the best of our knowledge, it was never officially settled whether pie a la mode is played with the spoon or fork or both, though common preference seems to lean to the fork alone. In any event, millions of his fellow men are indebted to Mr. Townsend for lending flavor?usually vanilla?to their daily lives. 11 June 1958, Mason City (Iowa) Globe-Gazette, pg. 5, col. 4: OUCH! MADISON, Wis. (AP)?Printed under the pie list on menus at a well-known Madison (not Texas) steakhouse: "Remember the Ala-mode!" 5 December 1958, Sheboygan (WI) Press, pg. 12, col. 2: In August, you'll be urged to "Remember the A La Mode." (To the strains of Dixie.) Here Mr. Moo, the ADA mascot, goes western and you learn that ice cream goes with anything from brats to "heavenly cranberry pie." (American Dairy Association story?ed.) 14 August 1959, Newark (OH) Advocate, pg. 21, col. 7 ad: Remember the A-La Mode Ice Cream Make's America's Best Desserts Even Better (...) CUMMINS' ICE CREAM and DAIRY 20 August 1959, Corpus Christi (TX) Times, pg. 49 ad: Ice Cream Remember the A La Mode Knolle All Jersey 3 Qts. for 99c 8 January 1960, Amarillo (TX) Globe-Times, pg. 12, col. 5: Why go to Bali or the Congo when here you can attend in comparative safety a "Domestic Rabbit Week" or "Remember A La Mode Month"? 29 August 1963, Nevada State Journal (Reno, Nevada), pg. 7, cols. 3-5: Pie a la Mode Invention Of American Restaurants CAMBRIDGE, N.Y. (UPI)?Pie a la mode is as American as baseball or the Virginia reel but its origin eludes those not aware of this small community in the Adirondack foothill. In 1896, a music teacher, Professor Charles Watson Townsend, regularly concluded his dinners at the Hotel Cambridge with the combination of apple pie and ice cream. When Mrs. Berry Hall, an employee at the hotel first saw the creation, she gasped, "pie a la mode." The name was acceptable enough to Townsend, who wasn't fussy as long as his favorite dessert was served. Later that year at fashionable Delmonico's restaurant in New York City, Townsend requested "his" dessert. When the waiter disclaimed knowledge of "pie a la mode," Townsend was astonished and then indignant. He called the manager and described how a little hotel in Cambridge, N.Y. regularly served the dish. With Delmonico's reputation at stake, the flustered manager ordered "pie a la mode" featured on the daily menu. A reporter from the old New York Sun overheard the conversation and the emergence of "pie a la mode" was told in a feature story in the daily the next day. Other newspapers across the nation followed suit and the dessert was soon a household standby. Why did the phrase "a la mode" become so quickly associated with a mound of ice cream on a slice of pie? A Wagner College history professor noted that "a la mode" was used widely in the 1890's to describe anything extremely fashionable. A few persons are aware of the origin of the term. Walter Gann, present owner of the Hotel Cambridge, said his sister was listening to a phone-in-the-answer quiz program in New York when the dessert's birthplace was asked. She telephones within three minutes only to be told some 200 listeners had already called in the correct answer. Gann credits much of Cambridge's national notoriety to Roy Shoet, who has been the radio and television announcer at nearby Saratoga Raceway for many years. During the winter months, Shoet broadcast from California and frequently mentioned the birthplace of "pie a la mode" on a network. In addition, Cambridge is a fashionable resort which had catered for many years to well-traveled guests who spread its reputation throughout the globe. Google Books Remember the a la mode! Riddles and Puns compiled by Charles Keller Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall 1983 Google Groups: alt.tv.game-shows Newsgroups: alt.tv.game-shows From: "Jason Wuthrich" Date: 1999/11/08 Subject: Re: JS ABC Millionaire 11/7 > For $300: > In the battle cry datings from the 1830s, what are Texans told to remember? > He says The Alamo for $300. > For $500: > What French phrase has come to mean "served with ice cream"? > He chooses "a la mode" for $500. REMEMBER THE A LA MODE! (...) And all my opinions (except the a la mode joke) are mine alone. Google Books Angels Laughing: The Very Best Spiritual and Religious Humor compiled and written by Thomas Haka Trafford Publishing Pg. 224: The Baptist minister in Texas ordered ice cream with his pie for dessert because he wanted to "remember the a la mode." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Oct 28 21:18:03 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: "Blue laws 1755 antedates 1762; "blue law" (singular) 1792 not in OED2 Message-ID: (1) Well, Fred Shapiro, it's not Paul Scholes' assertion of a quotation from Smith's phantom 1767 "History of New York", but it may be (see Note) earlier than the "earliest" 1762 quotation! "Blue laws," 1755: "Hartford, (in Connecticut) May 12. Since the happy Revolution, and the Revival of our old Blue Laws, we have the Pleasure to see the Lord's Work go on with Success; all different Persuasions do now again pay our Ministers, which is said to be a great Help to many of our Towns in the back Settlements." New-York Mercury, 1755 March 3, 1/3 {EAN]. NOTE: My eye of suspicion having been poked by the phrase "Since the happy Revolution" and by a Hartford dateline of May in a March NY paper, and wondering what revolution there was in New York in 1755 (some constitutional crisis, or "the" Revolution?), I looked further into this issue. The "blue laws" item is preceded at a distance by a headline "The New-York Gazette. May, 20th, *1775*", and there are a few more items on pages 1 and 2 dated May or 1775. I browsed further, but did not see anything blatant that would place the contents in 1775 versus 1755; a closer reading might reveal something. As to the masthead, it is Number 134; No. 133 is dated Feb. 24, 1755; No. 13[5?] is dated March 10, 1755; No. 136 is dated March 17, 1755. EAN says the NY Mercury was published from Aug. 31, 1752 to Jan. 25, 1768 (after which its title changed), as does the Harvard catalog. If so, the 1775 dates in my issue must be incorrect. Perhaps I have here, in the spirit of the season, a ghoulish, Googlish tale. But I think not; the 1755 date seems to be genuine. I have no idea where the May 1775 dates come from. Perhaps I should scroll through the microfilm. (2) "Blue law", singular, not in OED2. "He therefore hoped the house would not accept the report then under consideration; but that they would gratify the very respectable town of Boston in its request, and permit a bill to be brought in for repealing this unsocial, illiberal, unconstitutional, rigid blue Law." ("Speech of Mr. Gardiner in the General Court, on the subject of a Theatre.") Essex Journal, 1792 Feb. 8, 4/3 [EAN]. (3) An early "blue laws", interdates 1762 (not in OED2) -- 1781 S. Peters Hist. Connecticut. They declare that a more unrighteous edict is not among their Blue Laws. Pennsylvania Ledger, 1778 March 11, 3/3 [EAN]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From SClements at NEO.RR.COM Sun Oct 28 22:25:00 2007 From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:25:00 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? Message-ID: At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey+parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 shows an 1890 cite. Comments? Sam Clements ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Oct 28 22:48:37 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:48:37 -0400 Subject: "Blue Laws" in 1755 Message-ID: Joel, Absolutely fascinating. I have long been aware of this hit in Early American Newspapers/America's Historical Newspapers, but I had assumed it was a misdated newspaper because there are so many 1775 dates in it. But looking at the page for a few minutes, it has dawned on me that much of this newspaper issue is a dream sequence -- the writer, writing in 1755, is dreaming about a future 1775 newspaper issue. The "Revolution" referred to is some imaginary British revolution, not the real American Revolution of 1775. The article two articles before the one mentioning _blue laws_ explicitly says that it is describing a dream newspaper issue. Although I would hope that the OED will check the original paper if it is available, or at least the microform, there seems every reason to believe that this is a genuine 1755 occurrence of _blue laws_. Well done, Joel! Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 5:18 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "Blue laws 1755 antedates 1762; "blue law" (singular) 1792 not in OED2 (1) Well, Fred Shapiro, it's not Paul Scholes' assertion of a quotation from Smith's phantom 1767 "History of New York", but it may be (see Note) earlier than the "earliest" 1762 quotation! "Blue laws," 1755: "Hartford, (in Connecticut) May 12. Since the happy Revolution, and the Revival of our old Blue Laws, we have the Pleasure to see the Lord's Work go on with Success; all different Persuasions do now again pay our Ministers, which is said to be a great Help to many of our Towns in the back Settlements." New-York Mercury, 1755 March 3, 1/3 {EAN]. NOTE: My eye of suspicion having been poked by the phrase "Since the happy Revolution" and by a Hartford dateline of May in a March NY paper, and wondering what revolution there was in New York in 1755 (some constitutional crisis, or "the" Revolution?), I looked further into this issue. The "blue laws" item is preceded at a distance by a headline "The New-York Gazette. May, 20th, *1775*", and there are a few more items on pages 1 and 2 dated May or 1775. I browsed further, but did not see anything blatant that would place the contents in 1775 versus 1755; a closer reading might reveal something. As to the masthead, it is Number 134; No. 133 is dated Feb. 24, 1755; No. 13[5?] is dated March 10, 1755; No. 136 is dated March 17, 1755. EAN says the NY Mercury was published from Aug. 31, 1752 to Jan. 25, 1768 (after which its title changed), as does the Harvard catalog. If so, the 1775 dates in my issue must be incorrect. Perhaps I have here, in the spirit of the season, a ghoulish, Googlish tale. But I think not; the 1755 date seems to be genuine. I have no idea where the May 1775 dates come from. Perhaps I should scroll through the microfilm. (2) "Blue law", singular, not in OED2. "He therefore hoped the house would not accept the report then under consideration; but that they would gratify the very respectable town of Boston in its request, and permit a bill to be brought in for repealing this unsocial, illiberal, unconstitutional, rigid blue Law." ("Speech of Mr. Gardiner in the General Court, on the subject of a Theatre.") Essex Journal, 1792 Feb. 8, 4/3 [EAN]. (3) An early "blue laws", interdates 1762 (not in OED2) -- 1781 S. Peters Hist. Connecticut. They declare that a more unrighteous edict is not among their Blue Laws. Pennsylvania Ledger, 1778 March 11, 3/3 [EAN]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Sun Oct 28 23:02:16 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:02:16 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? In-Reply-To: <1c6f01c819b1$6157f800$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2007, at 18:25, Sam Clements wrote: > At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, > supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey > +parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 shows an 1890 cite. > > Comments? I saw that last week and mentioned it in a podcast. It seems to check out, if you go back page by page, making sure there are no breaks and that the page numbers are consecutive. It seems to conform to the table of contents, too. The only way to be sure, though, will be by checking the printed version. It doesn't seem to be one of the books that is also at the U. of Michigan Making of America site--that's the school where Google got the book. Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sun Oct 28 23:11:56 2007 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:11:56 -0400 Subject: "Nosey Parker" 1890? In-Reply-To: <1c6f01c819b1$6157f800$7326a618@DFV45181> Message-ID: >At the risk of exposing myself to trusting Google Books too much, >supposedly the term "Nosey Parker" is only found from 1907. > >http://books.google.com/books?id=FUFJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=%22nosey+parker%22+date:1850-1908&as_brr=0#PPA81,M1 >shows an 1890 cite. > >Comments? Looks OK to me. I guess it's found from 1890. -- Doug Wilson -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 29 07:12:00 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:12:00 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" Message-ID: For Gerald Cohen and whoever else is interested...If Corpus Christi were to use "Windy City," I still wouldn't get in the papers down here. ... ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_City,_Texas Missouri City is a city located in the U.S. state of Texas within the Houston?Sugar Land?Baytown metropolitan area. The city is mostly in Fort Bend County with a small portion within Harris County. As of the 2000 U.S. Census, the city had a total population of 52,913 (though a 2004 estimate placed the population at 62,570). ... ... http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071011_jj_missouricityshowmecity.15eb14bd4.html Missouri City to be known as 'Show Me' city 03:35 PM CDT on Thursday, October 11, 2007 KHOU.com staff report Missouri City wants to get out from the shadows of Houston and Sugar Land. So, it will now be called the "Show Me" city after the state it was named after. The city will also get a new logo to go along with that slogan. Officials say they asked residents how best to improve the city's image. Most voted against changing Missouri City's name. The new slogan and logo will be phased in over the next year ... ... http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071016_tnt_missouricity.178d79c05.html Missouri City gets a new logo 05:26 PM CDT on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 KHOU.com staff report Missouri City has a new logo. The logo was approved Monday night. It's all a part of a new image campaign that also includes the slogan, "The Show Me City." ... ... http://www.fortbendnow.com/opinion/3484/why-couldnt-citizens-have-come-up-with-mo-city-slogan Opinion/Analysis Why Couldn't Citizens Have Come Up With Mo. City Slogan? Oct 25, 2007, 12 08 PM I have a comment about Missouri City's new slogan of "Show Me". In the mid- 1890s it is said that a mining town in Colorado had to use miners from Missouri due to a strike. These miners were not familiar to Colorado methods of mining and required lots of instruction. Pit boses began saying "That man is from Missouri, he doesnt know anything, you will have to show him. Its said that this is where the show me state came from. Sounds like ineptness is associated with the" show me state",, guess our city council finally got it right at least where they are concerned anyway. Why couldn't the citizens been allowed to have input with a contest to come up with a slogan and logo.. or is it that this council doesn't want any input because if citizens become involved , then questions begin to be asked and council must come up with some answers. Just keep 'em dumb and stupid I guess. David Whythe Missouri City ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 11:40:57 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:40:57 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071028111423.2sazmrw6s8gwogw0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed "The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") And he omitted the N.B. section following the signature. Apparently we now have the spellings Caucus, Caucuss (1776 mentioned yesterday), and Caucas (this is not the only appearance of the latter). The appeal is in the Boston Evening Post and is available in America's Historical Newspapers. My previous message made no mention of, and no claim about, Elisha Cooke Jr. The slight misdating in the OED Caucus etymology perhaps followed the similar mistake in An American Glossary By Richard Hopwood Thornton page 154. More of the biography of Joseph Warren in John Eliot, 1809, I suggest, ma be, for those interested in this word, worth reading. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Oct 29 12:13:30 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:13:30 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" In-Reply-To: <200710290712.l9SArKPW004599@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Ineptness"? What's happened to "ineptitude" and "unaptness"? -Wilson On 10/29/07, Barry Popik wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Barry Popik > Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For Gerald Cohen and whoever else is interested...If Corpus Christi > were to use "Windy City," I still wouldn't get in the papers down > here. > ... > ... > ... > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_City,_Texas > Missouri City is a city located in the U.S. state of Texas within the > Houston?Sugar Land?Baytown metropolitan area. The city is mostly in > Fort Bend County with a small portion within Harris County. As of the > 2000 U.S. Census, the city had a total population of 52,913 (though a > 2004 estimate placed the population at 62,570). > ... > ... > http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071011_jj_missouricityshowmecity.15eb14bd4.html > Missouri City to be known as 'Show Me' city > > 03:35 PM CDT on Thursday, October 11, 2007 > > KHOU.com staff report > > Missouri City wants to get out from the shadows of Houston and Sugar Land. > > So, it will now be called the "Show Me" city after the state it was > named after. > > The city will also get a new logo to go along with that slogan. > > Officials say they asked residents how best to improve the city's image. > > Most voted against changing Missouri City's name. > > The new slogan and logo will be phased in over the next year > ... > ... > http://www.khou.com/news/local/fortbend/stories/khou071016_tnt_missouricity.178d79c05.html > > Missouri City gets a new logo > > 05:26 PM CDT on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 > > KHOU.com staff report > Missouri City has a new logo. > > The logo was approved Monday night. > > It's all a part of a new image campaign that also includes the slogan, > "The Show Me City." > ... > ... > http://www.fortbendnow.com/opinion/3484/why-couldnt-citizens-have-come-up-with-mo-city-slogan > Opinion/Analysis > Why Couldn't Citizens Have Come Up With Mo. City Slogan? > Oct 25, 2007, 12 08 PM > > > I have a comment about Missouri City's new slogan of "Show Me". In the > mid- 1890s it is said that a mining town in Colorado had to use miners > from Missouri due to a strike. These miners were not familiar to > Colorado methods of mining and required lots of instruction. Pit boses > began saying "That man is from Missouri, he doesnt know anything, you > will have to show him. Its said that this is where the show me state > came from. > > Sounds like ineptness is associated with the" show me state",, guess > our city council finally got it right at least where they are > concerned anyway. > > Why couldn't the citizens been allowed to have input with a contest to > come up with a slogan and logo.. or is it that this council doesn't > want any input because if citizens become involved , then questions > begin to be asked and council must come up with some answers. > > Just keep 'em dumb and stupid I guess. > > David Whythe > Missouri City > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Oct 29 14:45:37 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:45:37 -0700 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Rosemarie wrote: > If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this > could be > considered an actual eggcorn: > > << SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came > across > one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: > "Residential > hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. > Garages, > basements, addicts." > > --Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll another flapping case, but it's hard to work out the semantics. a comment on the ecdb has drug addict >> drug attic: Commentary by david toccafondi , 2005/02/15 at 6:59 pm drug addict >> drug attic I?ve heard people say this for years, but only recently started noticing it in print: ?many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a drug attic? I?m not a drug attic..i just need a puff ----- attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Mon Oct 29 15:03:16 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:03:16 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291445.l9TAlAea013770@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Alternatively. . . I'm not a drug attic, I just have bats in my belfry. (the other) doug drug addict >> drug attic I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started noticing it in print: "many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a drug attic" I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff ----- attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 15:02:36 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:02:36 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071029074057.5kugm0ryf40sow4o@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 07:40 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United >States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], >which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a >Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 >when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed >"The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") The possible plural is intriguing, along with the "as". But might it not be a collective noun, as in "the committee"? And one year earlier John Adams had spelt it "caucus". Are the newspaper "caucas"s (and the others you found) just a not-unusual 18th c. variable spelling? Or have the editors of the Adams _Diary_ normalized *his* spelling of one year earlier? >And he omitted the N.B. section following the signature. Apparently >we now have the spellings Caucus, Caucuss (1776 mentioned >yesterday), and Caucas (this is not the only appearance of the latter). Do some of the other "caucas"s also suggest a plural? >The appeal is in the Boston Evening >Post and is available in America's Historical Newspapers. > >My previous message made no mention of, and no claim about, Elisha Cooke Jr. True; I mentioned Cooke because his 1720's party is referred to as a "caucus" also. But my question was really whether "north end" suggests anything about the etymology. >The slight misdating in the OED Caucus etymology perhaps followed the similar >mistake in An American Glossary By Richard Hopwood Thornton page 154. Do you mean the 1788 misdating of Gordon as 1774? Since the quotations include Gordon and date it 1788, I wonder whether the reference in the etymology means rather that Gordon said (in 1788) that he couldn't obtain a satisfactory explanation of the name in 1774. (Did he ask Adams??) >More of the biography of Joseph Warren in John Eliot, 1809, I suggest, ma be, >for those interested in this word, worth reading. Thanks. I have an interest in the Boston Caucus -- meaning the 1720s group -- and will look there. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:14:43 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:14:43 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <1951FC22-9659-43BF-984B-49114108D02C@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 7:45 AM -0700 10/29/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 21, 2007, at 8:50 PM, Rosemarie wrote: > >>If you consider that addicts are referred to as "junkies," this >>could be >>considered an actual eggcorn: >> >><< SCANNING the phone book for a garbage collection service, I came >>across >>one that clearly wasn't afraid to tackle any job. Their ad read: >>"Residential >>hauling. All types of junk removed. No load too large or too small. >>Garages, >>basements, addicts." >> >>--Contributed to "All In a Day's Work" by Mary Beth Carroll > >another flapping case, but it's hard to work out the semantics. a >comment on the ecdb has drug addict >> drug attic: > >Commentary by david toccafondi , 2005/02/15 at 6:59 pm > >drug addict >> drug attic > >I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started >noticing it in print: >"many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a >drug attic" > >I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff > Better to be a drug attic than a drug cellar. At least you're higher. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:27:38 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:27:38 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: E.g., another "caucas" spelling appears in Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements Paper: Boston Evening-Post, published as Boston Evening Post.; Date: 02-14-1763; Issue: 1432; Page: [3]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts [America's Historical Newspapers]. This is the same month and year of the OED earliest quote, from the diary of John Adams, (and the newspaper publisher explained that it was to be published last week). ...to determine whether it be agreeable to "OUR SIDE" [dagger or cross sign].... [dagger or cross sign footnote;] Caucas. Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From preston at MSU.EDU Mon Oct 29 15:29:24 2007 From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:29:24 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291503.l9TAkugX011453@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If /t/ and /d/ are flapped (as they almost always are in AmerEng) and the final /kt/ is simplified (as it would be in many varieties), the pronunciation could have been the source of the reanalysis in print, but how could we have been sure of it in speech since they are homophonous? Somebody says /aeDIk/ for "addict" and someone else hears "attic." dInIs >---------------------- Information from the mail header >----------------------- >Sender: American Dialect Society >Poster: Doug Harris >Subject: Re: This is almost an eggcorn >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Alternatively. . . >I'm not a drug attic, I just have bats in my belfry. >(the other) doug > >drug addict >> drug attic > >I've heard people say this for years, but only recently started >noticing it in print: >"many people have experienced one of their peers whose mother was a >drug attic" > >I'm not a drug attic..i just need a puff > >----- > >attic >> addict makes no more sense than addict >> attic, of course. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Dennis R. Preston University Distinguished Professor Department of English 15C Morrill Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 517-353-4736 preston at msu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 15:54:25 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:54:25 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 07:40 AM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >Frederick William Dallinger, Nominations for Elective Office in the United >States (Harvard Historical Studies IV, 1897) p. 10 [Google Book full view], >which mentions the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus, presents part of a >Boston newspaper appeal, but made two errors. He misdated it as May 4, 1764 >when it was May 14, and he said it was signed "The Caucus" when it was signed >"The _CAUCAS_." (Also note the plural: "Your humble Servants, The _CAUCAS_") On page 7, footnote 13, Dallinger's discussion of the word origin is very similar to the OED's (except he comes down on the side of "caulkers"). Dallinger writes "The deriviation of the word _caucus_, which first appeared about 1724 in Massachusetts, is still in doubt." Too bad he -- nor anyone else -- has identified *where* it appeared about 1724! (Stephen, have you looked in Early American Imprints also?) Those, however, appear to be the only words Dallinger utters about the 1720s, except for a very brief and general (and undated) statement about the first "party lines" being the court and popular parties (also p. 7). His discussion of the Caucus Club and the North End Caucus is for the pre-Revolutionary period. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Mon Oct 29 16:03:13 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:03:13 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <200710291506.l9TF6m38016806@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Life and Times of Joseph Warren By Richard Frothingham page 50 note 1: "In the records of one of these caucuses, the word is spelt caucos ("Siege of Boston," 30). In the "Boston Gazette" of 1760 are the following sentences: "Nothing of the least significance was rransacted at a late meeting of the New and Grand Corcas."-- "Votes are to be given away by the delicate hands of the New and Grand Corcas." If the same group (as appears), an antedating. Sure enough (perhaps an outsider view, perhaps spelling from oral account): Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements Paper: Boston Gazette, published as The Boston Gazette, and Country Journal; Date: 05-05-1760; Issue: 266; Page: Supplement [1]; Location: Boston, Massachusetts: [italics ignored] Whereas it is reported, that certain Persons, of the Modern Air and Complexion, to the Number of Twelve at least, have divers Times of late been known to combine together, and are called by the Name of the New and Grand Corcas, tho' of declared Principles directly opposite to all that have heretofore been known: And whereas it is vehemently suspected, by some, that their Design is nothing less, than totally to overthrow the ancient Constitution of our Town-Meetings, as being popular and mobbish... Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Oct 29 16:14:39 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:14:39 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to figure. --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 11:29:24 -0400 >From: "Dennis R. Preston" > >If /t/ and /d/ are flapped (as they almost always are in AmerEng) and the final /kt/ is simplified (as it would be in many varieties), the pronunciation could have been the source of the reanalysis in print, but how could we have been sure of it in speech since they are homophonous? Somebody says /aeDIk/ for "addict" and someone else hears "attic." > >dInIs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Oct 29 17:06:07 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:06:07 -0400 Subject: The Etymology of Caucus In-Reply-To: <20071029120313.0uj5jivzwgc0ksgk@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: At 10/29/2007 12:03 PM, Stephen Goranson wrote: >According to Life and Times of Joseph Warren By Richard Frothingham >page 50 note >1: "In the records of one of these caucuses, the word is spelt caucos >("Siege of >Boston," 30). In the "Boston Gazette" of 1760 are the following sentences: >"Nothing of the least significance was rransacted at a late meeting of the New >and Grand Corcas."-- "Votes are to be given away by the delicate hands of the >New and Grand Corcas." > >If the same group (as appears), an antedating. > >Sure enough (perhaps an outsider view, perhaps spelling from oral account): >Headline: [No Headline]; Article Type: Advertisements >Paper: Boston Gazette, published as The Boston Gazette, and Country Journal; >Date: 05-05-1760; Issue: 266; Page: Supplement [1]; Location: Boston, >Massachusetts: [italics ignored] > >Whereas it is reported, that certain Persons, of the Modern Air and >Complexion, >to the Number of Twelve at least, have divers Times of late been known to >combine together, and are called by the Name of the New and Grand Corcas, tho' >of declared Principles directly opposite to all that have heretofore been >known: And whereas it is vehemently suspected, by some, that their Design is >nothing less, than totally to overthrow the ancient Constitution of our >Town-Meetings, as being popular and mobbish... Good find! Now, I assume, we will start looking for "corca[s]" in the 1720s! And any relation to the West Indies "Caucus", which appears (appear?) in a few early Boston newspapers (1750s, if I remember correctly, when I came across them in EAN)? Or of the "Grand Corcas" to Grand Turk? (Just kidding; I am tentatively identifying the West Indies Caucus as another instance of 18th century idiosyncratic spelling, here for the Caicos.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Oct 29 18:14:02 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:14:02 -0400 Subject: The m-word In-Reply-To: <200710251702.l9PAki0T026797@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... > > see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: > > ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html > > ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html > > ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > > (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word > MOIST!) > > these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" > "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among > women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now > taking it to be offensive to women. This thread (along with Mark's LL discussion) has now been picked up by Carol Lloyd's "Broadsheet" column on Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/?last_story=/mwt/broadsheet/2007/10/29/moist/ An excerpt: ----- Last week the moist conversation took on a new dimension when Charles Doyle at the University of Georgia posted to an academic language list-serve that his use of the word in a Shakespeare class had prompted several of his female college students to inform him (in an amused, not outraged way) that the M-word was offensive to women. According to professor Doyle, the women offered no explanation for the word's bad juju, but one male student suggested that it might have something to do with female sexual arousal. To which I offer the following comment: No, duh. Since then some posts have suggested that the moist embargo is yet another feminist absurdity (a theory too absurd to dignify with a response). But maybe the college students were not talking about the word per se, but about the professor's use of it. Doyle says he used the word to describe Egypt in "Antony and Cleopatra" -- and the association with women's sexual arousal "is not at all beside the point." So are these women squeamish about Shakespeare's (or Doyle's) bawdy vision, or do they actually believe the word that has sold Betty Crocker cake mixes for decades is now an obscenity? Either way, it's weird to imagine that in this era of happy-go-lucky explicitness, we could suddenly start getting offended in a college Shakespeare seminar and turning ordinary words into taboos. Is there a growing Victorianism lurking in our verbal closet? Or is it that since an open revulsion with the female body is no longer kosher, our disgust searches out substitute targets? ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Oct 29 20:58:51 2007 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen@westelcom.com) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:58:51 -0400 Subject: The m-word Message-ID: I've been picking up mail from the web for several weeks now, since my own machine is still in the hands of the (I hope) merciful tech. Since I can't take time to open all of it, I've been mystified by the "m- word" thread. Now that I've looked at it, I'm still mystified. "Moist" has no particular bad connotations for me, but I suspect has been tainted by pernicious, insistent advertising that makes sweat seem bad. There are lots of lotions that are marketed as "moisturizers," making it seem a bit self-defeating........so what's new? AM Original Message: ----------------- From: Benjamin Zimmer bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:14:02 -0400 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: The m-word On 10/25/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2007, at 8:42 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > A student in my Shakespeare class announced that the word > > "moist" (which I had uttered to describe Egypt in _Antony & > > Cleopatra_) is offensive to women... > > see the Moist Chronicles on Language Log: > > ML, 8/20/07: Ask Language Log: The moist panties phenomenon: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004835.html > > ML, 9/10/07: Morning mailbag: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004896.html > > ML, 10/6/07: The long moist tail: > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004993.html > > (note in the last a reference to the facebook group I HATE the word > MOIST!) > > these are about "word aversions", especially to the "cringe word" > "moist". the aversion to the word seems to be much stronger among > women than among men. but it's news to me that some women are now > taking it to be offensive to women. This thread (along with Mark's LL discussion) has now been picked up by Carol Lloyd's "Broadsheet" column on Salon.com: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/?last_story=/mwt/broadsheet/2007/10/29/m oist/ An excerpt: ----- Last week the moist conversation took on a new dimension when Charles Doyle at the University of Georgia posted to an academic language list-serve that his use of the word in a Shakespeare class had prompted several of his female college students to inform him (in an amused, not outraged way) that the M-word was offensive to women. According to professor Doyle, the women offered no explanation for the word's bad juju, but one male student suggested that it might have something to do with female sexual arousal. To which I offer the following comment: No, duh. Since then some posts have suggested that the moist embargo is yet another feminist absurdity (a theory too absurd to dignify with a response). But maybe the college students were not talking about the word per se, but about the professor's use of it. Doyle says he used the word to describe Egypt in "Antony and Cleopatra" -- and the association with women's sexual arousal "is not at all beside the point." So are these women squeamish about Shakespeare's (or Doyle's) bawdy vision, or do they actually believe the word that has sold Betty Crocker cake mixes for decades is now an obscenity? Either way, it's weird to imagine that in this era of happy-go-lucky explicitness, we could suddenly start getting offended in a college Shakespeare seminar and turning ordinary words into taboos. Is there a growing Victorianism lurking in our verbal closet? Or is it that since an open revulsion with the female body is no longer kosher, our disgust searches out substitute targets? ----- --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 02:23:24 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:23:24 -0400 Subject: Missouri City, TX has a new motto -- "Show Me" Message-ID: Featured today on AOL is another "Ellen Across America" quiz. Ellen does this to torture me. I get less sympathy than her dog. ... I proved that this naval banquet was in 1900 (not 1899), and "show me" had been current since 1894. Missouri didn't send me a word of thanks, and the state's website is still wrong. ... ... http://ellen.aol.com/editorial/the+all-american+state+trivia+quiz Missouri's state nickname, the "Show Me State" is derived from: A. An unfortunate fishing incident B. A really (really) early fan of the movie "Jerry McGuire" C. The state's picture-book pretty natural landscape D. A certain stubborn congressman D ("Correct" answer -- B.P.) The nickname is ascribed to Rep. Willard Van Diver who, while a member of the U.S. House Committee on Naval Affairs, spoke at an 1899 naval banquet in Philadelphia. There, he declared, "I come from a country that raises corn and cotton, cockleburs and Democrats and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri, and you have got to show me.: ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 30 03:27:23 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:27:23 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710291614.l9TAlA6l013772@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on >the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to >figure. Hmm... "Hey, Maude, how d'you spell attic?" "Addict? A-d-d-i-c-t." Well, one possibility, anyway. I suppose the writer may have assumed that it was another case of one word with two fairly different meanings and learned the spelling of "addict"... If someone spelled it "addic" it could have been spell check, too. (And maybe the writer saw the spelling "relict" somewhere and thought from that that a silent t was reasonable on the end of this word.) Oh, where is a verbal Horation Kane when we need him, to discover the real answers so neatly with lucky bits of evidence and technology, all in an hour flat? James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 08:25:16 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:25:16 -0400 Subject: "Red or Green or Christmas?" (chile sauce) Message-ID: I just finished a long post on "Red or Green or Christmas?" The Dictionary of American Regional English doesn't have "Christmas" (1/2 red and 1/2 green chile sauce), a New Mexico regional food term? ... Any earlier "Christmas" will be appreciated. ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/red_or_green_or_christmas_red_sauce_green_sauce_or_half_red_and_half_green/ ... Entry from October 30, 2007 "Red or Green (or Christmas)?" (red sauce, green sauce, or half-red and half-green chile sauce) "Red or green?" is the official state question of New Mexico. Really, it is. The "state question" was proposed in 1996 and finally signed by the governor in 1999. New Mexico is a major chile-producing state, and there are both red chile sauces and green chile sauces. The "red or green?" question is asked often in restaurants, and the state legislature thought that making it an "official state question" would boost tourism. Christmas is known for its red and green colors. In New Mexico restaurant lingo (that appears to have started in Santa Fe), "Christmas" means a plate of half-red and half-green chile sauces. The New Mexico terminology has spread to some other states of the Southwest, such as Arizona and Texas. Wikipedia: New Mexico State question* "Red or Green?" 1999 (*)The official state question refers to a question commonly heard at restaurants, where waiters will ask customers "red or green?" in reference to which kind of chili pepper or "chile sauce" the customers wants served with their meal. This type of "chile" is usually distinct from salsa, as the chile sauce is much finer and thicker and more commonly served with meals. Natives are more likely to refer to the chili sauce put on their meal as just plain "chile", and not as any form of "salsa" (which is usually reserved by natives in English for the salsa served with chips; everything else is just "chile"). If the diner wants both they can answer with, "Christmas" (or "Navidad" in Spanish), in reference to the two traditional colors of Christmas?Red and Green. Wikipedia: Cuisine of the Southwestern United States Southwestern cuisine is food styled after the rustic cooking of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Utah, as well as parts of Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado. It comprises a fusion of recipes for things that might have been eaten by cowboys, Native Americans, and Mexicans throughout the post-Columbian era, however, there is a great diversity in this kind of cuisine within the above-mentioned states. Southwestern cuisine is heavily influenced by Mexican cuisine but often involves larger cuts of meat, and less use of tripe, brain, and other parts not considered as desirable in the United States. Like Mexican cuisine, it is also known for its use of spices (particularly the chile, or Chili pepper) and accompaniment with beans (frijoles), cooked in a variety of manners. Chili con carne, fajitas, certain kinds of chiles rellenos (stuffed chiles), and various steak-chile combinations are particularly well-known Southwestern foods. Note that "chili" generally refers to a thick stew or soup prepared with beans and meat, while "chile" refers to the peppers that grow in this region and have been eaten for thousands of years by the native people. Recently, several chains of casual dining restaurants specializing in Southwestern cuisine have become popular in the United States. New Mexico is known for its dedication to the chile (the official "state question" is "Red or green?", which refers to the preferred color of chiles), most notably the "hatch" chile. New Mexican cuisine New Mexican food is a type of regional cuisine originating in the U.S. state of New Mexico; it is a subset of Mexican-American cuisine. Although many New Mexican dishes are similar to Mexican and Tex-Mex offerings such as enchiladas and burritos, New Mexican food has a distinct style. The most important difference is the type of chile pepper used. [citation needed] New Mexico chiles comes in two varieties, referred to as either "green chile" or "red chile" depending on the stage of ripeness in which they were picked. Green chile is perhaps the defining ingredient of New Mexican food compared to neighboring styles, though heavier use of cilantro and relaxed use of cumin are also important. In the past few years, green chile has grown increasingly more common outside of New Mexico, and it is a popular ingredient in everything from enchiladas and burritos to cheeseburgers and bagels within the state's borders. (...) List of New Mexican culinary terms (...) Chile or chile sauce: A sauce made from red or green chiles by a variety of recipes, and served hot over many (perhaps any) New Mexican dish. Chile does not use vinegar, unlike most salsas, picantes and other hot sauces. Green chile is made with chopped roasted chiles, while red chile is made with chiles dried and ground to a powder. Thickeners like flour, and various spices are often added, especially ground cumin, coriander and oregano (none of these is usually added to a red chile sauce, and rarely would cumin or coriander show up in a traditional green sauce). Chile is one of the most definitive differences between New Mexican and other Mexican and Mexican-American cuisines. Mexican and Californian tend to use various specialized sauces for different dishes, while Tex-Mex leans toward the use of salsa picante and chili con carne (and even Cajun-style Louisiana hot sauce). New Mexican cuisine uses chile sauce as taco sauce, enchilada sauce, burrito sauce, etc. (though any given meal may use both red and green varieties for different dishes). A thicker version of green chile, with larger pieces of the plant, plus onions and other additions, is called green chile stew and is popular in Albuquerque-style New Mexican food; it is used the same way as green chile sauce, as a topping for virtually anything, including American dishes. The term "Christmas" is commonly used in New Mexico when both red and green chiles are used for one dish. Bill Richardson for President (May 24, 2007) Red or Blue State? Nah. Red or Green! Forget the standard political demographics and things like mixing religion with politics. In New Mexico, Christmas is celebrated every day - in fact, several times a day - in the halls of government, city plazas, schools, and people's homes. What am I talking about? "Red or Green?" - the official New Mexico State Question, the answer to which has recently been legislated to be: "Christmas," meaning both, please. Chile has been an important staple and source of pride going back hundreds of New Mexican years. The most well-known chiles come from the town of Hatch (everyone knows that!), where the long, slender spicy vegetables are harvested and celebrated. Every food in New Mexico comes smothered in chile. If Richardson becomes President, the White House Chef had better have this down! Albuquerque Living Red Or Green? If you dine in any Albuquerque restaurant serving New Mexican cuisine, be assured that you will be asked the question: "Red or Green?" What does it mean? Well, it reflects what can only be called a local obsession that has even influenced state legislation. In 1996 the New Mexico State Legislature passed a House Joint Memorial declaring "Red or Green?" the official state question. This refers to being asked whether one prefers red or green chile when ordering New Mexican cuisine. This measure was passed to signify the importance that the chile industry has on the economy of the state. In 2000 New Mexico produced 99,000 tons of chile valued at nearly 49 million dollars making it the number one cash crop in terms of sales in the state. the santa fe site Red or Green? Chile that is! (...) Hatch in southern New Mexico is where much of the New Mexico chili crop is grown. Hatch is called the Chile Capital of the world and has its annual Hatch Chile festival on Labor Day weekend. In New Mexico when ordering chile with your meal the chile is typically the Hatch Chile. The green ones are usually roasted and the red ones are dried before they are used in cooking. Remember this when asked red or green? Or Christmas? The green is hotter and the red is a more pungent but not so hot a taste. Christmas is both red and green for those of you who want to try both so you can make the decision as to what you like. New Mexico Chili Depending on the variety, growth and harvest conditions, "hotness" can vary. Your cook/waiter will know which is hotter. If you're the adventurous sort, ask for "Christmas"--a sample of red and green chile/chili served side-by-side. NPR: New Mexico: Chile Hot Spot Kitchen Window By Bonny Wolf New Mexico: Chile Hot Spot NPR.org, September 19, 2007 (...) There's even an official state question: Red or green? And if you can't decide if you want red chile or green chile, you may answer, "Christmas," and you'll get some of both. Green and red chiles are actually the same chiles at different life stages: either picked earlier when they're green, or later after they're left to turn red on the vine. 27 September 1987, New York (NY) Times, "Chiles: Pungent, Sweet and Rich" by Susan Benner, section XX, pg. 28: Verde or colorado (green or red), chile pods may be used fresh from the plant, but more often they are roasted. Then the green is peeled and the red usually dried and ground. Though native pods are sold green?farmers like to sell them this way since it minimizes the danger of loss from birds or hail or frost?their thin-walled wrinkled flesh is difficult to peel. Consequently, the chile of northern New Mexico rarely appears green in restaurants, and is better known for the richly flavored powders from the dried, roasted and ground red. 26 November 1989, New York (NY) Times, "Santa Fe's Spicy Cultural Mix" by Nancy Harmon Jenkins, pg. XX12: ...carne adobado, spicy pork, marinated in red chili paste before roasting, and everywhere a choice of red or green chili sauce as an accompaniment. (Just ask for "Christmas," said Sam Arnold, a food historian who has lived in Santa Fe for many years, if you want both.) (...) (Pg. XX24?ed.) ...in the Hotel La Fonda, to the breakfast burritos, lascivious concoctions of scrambled eggs, sausage or ham, green or red (or Christmas) chili and cheese, that are available in a number of local breakfast places. 16 December 1990, New York (NY) Times, "Salsas of the Southwest" by Jeanie Puleston Fleming, pg. XX6: During the tasting Mr. Raub (Chef Peter Raub of the Sante Fe School of Cooking?ed.) explained another fine point in salsa definitions: the difference between traditional salsa and traditional New Mexican red or green chili sauces. While New Mexican chili sauce is served hot and on top of dishes like enchiladas (half red and half green is known as Christmas), salsa is served separately and cold. Also, you taste the chili, the tomato, the cilantro in salsa, while in a sauce, one flavor?usually the chile?dominates. Google Books Jane Butel's Southwestern Kitchen by Jane Butel New York, NY: HP Books 1994 Pg. 103: Christmas Chicken In New Mexico, a new favorite is to sauce dishes with half red chile sauce and half green chile sauce. This custom is called "Christmas," when one orders in a restaurant. So, when I combined red and green chiles in one chicken dish, I decided Christmas was an appropriate name. (Much more on website -- B.P.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 12:53:04 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:53:04 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" Message-ID: capitalism (OED 1854) 1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a plutocracy. Fred Shapiro --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Tue Oct 30 13:12:33 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:12:33 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF6F@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > capitalism (OED 1854) > > 1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library > Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more > together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and > money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a > plutocracy. PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 Category:News [19th Century British Library Newspapers] London, July 28 ... Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. SG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 13:30:06 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:30:06 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" Message-ID: linguistic (OED 1856) 1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Oct 30 12:40:18 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:40:18 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710300402.l9U3Gd38013770@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Charles Doyle > Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on > the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to > figure. How so? If the words are really and truly "merged", why wouldn't we expect some level of what looks a bit like free variation between them? I mean, it's not like one of the words is so amazingly obscure that nobody's seen it before--they both can show up on sweeps-week TV news teasers, for example. ("The danger in your attic!" "The story of an addict" and such.) -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Tue Oct 30 14:11:19 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:11:19 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn Message-ID: I wouldn't assume that the two words are "merged"--just that they sometimes get confused as to their spelling. In some dialects (like mine!), "addict" is pronounced the same as "attic," so it might easily be misspelled that way. But no pronunciation-spelling will produce "addict" for "attic," since there are no dialects (as far as I know) that would normally add a [-t] to the end of "attic." That's all I meant. (I'm not discounting other explanations for "addict" in place of "attic.") --Charlie _____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:40:18 -0400 >From: David Bowie > >From: Charles Doyle > >> Yes, "attic" for "addict" seems like simply a misspelling based on the phonology of certain dialects; "addict" for "attic" is harder to figure. > >How so? If the words are really and truly "merged", why wouldn't we expect some level of what looks a bit like free variation between them? I mean, it's not like one of the words is so amazingly obscure that nobody's seen it before--they both can show up on sweeps-week TV news teasers, for example. ("The danger in your attic!" "The story of an addict" and such.) > >-- >David Bowie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 30 15:19:42 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:19:42 -0400 Subject: NYT on "vajayjay" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 27, 2007, at 08:16, Benjamin Zimmer wrote: > An article on the euphemism "vajayjay", popularized last year by > "Grey's Anatomy" and then picked up by Oprah et al.: Thanks to a site visitor, I was able to take this term back just a couple of years further than the first use given in the Times article--which Rosenbloom seems to have found on my site, though she said nothing about it. I have a Barry Popik sensation coming on. This is a song from a rather profane white rap geek who seems to be more of a goof than a pretender: 2000 MC Paul Barman _It?s Very Stimulating_ (Feb. 15) ?MTV Get Off the Air, Part 2 (featuring Princess Superstar)?: Lady, one more complaint and I?ll shove a rape whistle up the Mrs. Vajajay. http://dtww.org/index.php/dictionary/va_jay_jay/ Grant Barrett Double-Tongued Dictionary http://www.doubletongued.org/ editor at doubletongued.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 15:41:23 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:41:23 -0700 Subject: More color confusion Message-ID: My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that very same catalogue! Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. So: credit but no free return shipping. As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? Could be any color. Probably gray. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 16:06:19 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:06:19 -0700 Subject: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News Message-ID: A few weeks ago, Fox ran a story about an irate gas-station owner in Texas who believes that Citgo profits Hugo Chavez more than any other brand. (My understanding is that gasoline is so thoroughly sloshed around by the time it gets to the pump that one can't discriminate.) He paid for a billboard with a picture of Chavez with a Citgo logo and the words "Don't Buy Gas From This Ass!" In covering this event at various points in the news day, Fox waffled about the word "ass." On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. At another time they showed the word on the board but wouldn't say it. A third time, they did say the word, though in a humorous, apologetic way. During the breakfast hour this a.m., however, a Fox entertainment correspondent said right out, "You know the old expression, 'You can't polish a turd'? Well, that certainly applies here." No bleep, no comment, nothing. JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 16:26:00 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:26:00 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <171517.81225.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that >very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED needs to update their entry. LH P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots of different colors, so that doesn't help much. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG Tue Oct 30 16:46:09 2007 From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:46:09 -0400 Subject: WOTY Season Message-ID: As the words-of-the-year season has begun with Webster's New World College Dictionary's "grass station" (), I'd like to remind everyone that we have a "media queries" page on the ADS web site: http://tinyurl.com/336gfu Any ADS member is invited to be a part of the media queries page. It usually results in a couple of calls a month, though more in December in January. If you'd like to be on it, please send me the following: Name Professional affiliation Very short bio: "I am an XXX for YYY Company/University with expertise in WWWW-ology, ZZZZ-ism, and TTTT-dom." Recent or relevant publications (a few, please, not dozens) Contact information: email, phone, mailing address. If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are correct. Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From yevb00 at GMAIL.COM Tue Oct 30 16:49:09 2007 From: yevb00 at GMAIL.COM (Evan Bradley) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:49:09 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5cc008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to Wikipedia, "Pure topaz is transparent but is usually tinted by impurities; typical topaz is wine or straw-yellow. They may also be white, gray, green, blue, pink or reddish-yellow and transparent or translucent." I'm a guy, as well, and I don't keep up with the latest jewelry trends, but perhaps the blue has become more popular than the common yellow variety, thereby shifting the color associated with the gem name? Also according to wikipedia, "A recent trend in jewelry is the manufacture of topaz specimens that display iridescent colors, by applying a thin layer of titanium oxide via physical vapor deposition, this stone is then sold as 'mystic topaz'." If this catches on, maybe 'topaz' will come to mean iridescent ;) On 10/30/07, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: More color confusion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's > >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from > >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to > >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > >very same catalogue! > > > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is > >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has > >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. > >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? > >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > > > JL > > Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED > version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington > (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good > karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I > turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was > already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance > at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates > they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark > yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted > lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). > > Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED > needs to update their entry. > > LH > > P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots > of different colors, so that doesn't help much. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU Tue Oct 30 16:53:40 2007 From: mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU (Michael H Covarrubias) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:53:40 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5K7002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's a very hard stone. Typically either a dark yellow or a light blue. I'm not sure which is the more common color for the stone but November's stone is the yellow variety which probably influenced the typical intention. mhc > > At 8:41 AM -0700 10/30/07, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED shows she's > >right. The color name has been in use for at least a century. > > > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in "topaz" from > >a well-known catalogue, the item was a light blue, very close to > >turquoise. But "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > >very same catalogue! > > > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really is > >light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has > >indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for nada. > >So: credit but no free return shipping. > > > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't it? > >Could be any color. Probably gray. > > > > JL > > > Laurence Horn wrote: > > Support for the cataloguist's theory of "topaz" as against the OED > version comes from the web site for the Topaz Hotel in Washington > (which promises guests "a world filled with positive energy and good > karma" as well as "a gentle yin to D.C.'s vibrant yang", promises I > turned out not to be in a position to evaluate, since the hotel was > already booked on the days I was going to be put up there). A glance > at the background at http://www.topazhotel.com/ clearly indicates > they have something like turquoise in mind, and clearly not dark > yellow (unless it's intended to refer to the color of the highlighted > lettering on the site, which seems unlikely). > > Maybe "topaz" should be added to the "livid" file. And maybe the OED > needs to update their entry. > > LH > > P.S. Ford/Mercury has a model called the Topaz but it comes in lots > of different colors, so that doesn't help much. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ English Language & Linguistics Purdue University mcovarru at purdue.edu web.ics.purdue.edu/~mcovarru ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Oct 30 16:52:43 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:43 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301626.l9UAl5K7002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've always known topaz to be yellowish, and I've certainly seen it up close and personal more than once. According to http://www.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/topaz/topaz.htm , "Topaz is a common gemstone that has been used for centuries in jewelry. Its golden brown to yellow color is classic but is confused with the less valuable citrine, which is sold under the name topaz. The blue topaz that is often confused with aquamarine is rarely natural and is produced by irradiating and then heating clear crystals." And on the side of the same page is a bunch of ads for blue topaz jewellery. Nary a sight of the yellowish kind. So apparently in some quarters, topaz is thought of as blue! News to me. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 16:55:25 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:55:25 -0700 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <171517.81225.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Topaz is colorless, but as with many colorless minerals, impurities can result in a variety of colors: "yellow, light shades of grey, green, red or blue", (Deer, Howie, and Zussman, 1966, An Introduction to the Rock-forming Minerals) However, it is likely that the gem you received is a colored variety of quartz, not topaz; in the very confusing (deceptive?) world of commercial jewelry, what a stone is called, especially a colored semi-precious stone, has more to do with appearance than mineralogy. It is rare to find genuine topaz in jewelry; although it is harder than quartz, it is easily cleaved or broken. --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and > OED shows she's right. The color name has been in > use for at least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item > in "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was > a light blue, very close to turquoise. But > "turquoise" was an alternative color choice in that > very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that > "topaz" really is light blue but no green as > turquoise. Proof? The manufacturer has indeed > designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, > counts for nada. So: credit but no free return > shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda > rock, isn't it? Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Oct 30 17:28:40 2007 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:28:40 -0400 Subject: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: A<85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044BA227@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: Sadly, the acknowledged Powers - the Fowler brothers, Professor Strunk, and E.B. White - are all deceased. It follows that the language necessarily is in a state of stasis, and no further changes or corrections are possible. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Mullins, Bill AMRDEC Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:06 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Silver Tsunami" (first "boomer" files for Social Security) (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > Basically I think that American's should tell the powers that be that > "tidal wave" > is a prefered term to "harbor wave" which is what "tsunami" > means. I've been looking for an email address for the Powers That Be for quite some time. If you have it, please post it to the list for all of our mutual benefit. I've got quite a few bones to pick with them. So far, I've only been able to complain to the World's Foremost Authority, Professor Irwin Corey. But clearly an Authority is farther down the food chain than a Power, and I want to go straight to the Top. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:06:07 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:06:07 -0700 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <914d6aa90710300949r2e558b41v401c9f9528095ca7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Evan Bradley wrote: > According to Wikipedia, "Pure topaz is transparent but is usually > tinted by impurities; typical topaz is wine or straw-yellow. They may > also be white, gray, green, blue, pink or reddish-yellow and > transparent or translucent." > > I'm a guy, as well, and I don't keep up with the latest jewelry > trends, but perhaps the blue has become more popular than the common > yellow variety, thereby shifting the color associated with the gem > name? if this is indeed a trend, the dictionaries are way behind on it. NOAD2 has the gemstone (in various colors), "a dark yellow color", and a tropical bird with a yellowish throat. AHD4 is similar, except that for the color name it refers you to "citrine" -- "pale-yellow; lemon colored" or a "translucent, yellow variety of quartz, often sold as topaz". some other gemstones come in a variety of colors, only one of which has been taken over for use as a color name. for the gemstone sapphire, wikipedia sez: The mineral corundum consists of pure aluminium oxide. Trace amounts of other elements such as iron, titanium and chromium give corundum their blue, yellow, pink, purple, orange or greenish color. Sapphire includes any gemstone quality varieties of the mineral corundum except the fully saturated red variety, which is instead known as ruby, and the pinkish-orange variety known as padparadscha. (padparadscha is news to me.) lots of webhits for "blue topaz". blue topaz (so labeled) is the december birthstone (with turquoise as an alternative), while yellow topaz (usually just labeled "topaz") is the november birthstone. in any case, there's some justification for "topaz" picking up an alternative meaning as a color word. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:35:22 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:35:22 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are > correct. my details are essentially correct, but i'd like to expand things somewhat: 1. after my title, add a line with my webpage: http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~zwicky 2. add to areas of expertise: formulaic language, literature giving advice on grammar, style, and usage 3. add to publications: numerous postings to Language Log [add link to LL] since 2003 4. my phone situation has changed. i used to work mostly at my private office, but since june 2006, stanford has supplied me with a real office, and i mostly work there or at home. so probably all three numbers should be listed: Stanford office: (650) 725-0023. Home: (650) 323-0753. Private office: (650) 843-0550. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 18:42:14 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:42:14 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 11:35 AM, i wrote: > On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > >> If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are >> correct. > > > my details are essentially correct... my apologies for sending this to the whole group rather than just to grant (the opposite of my usual error with "reply"). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:15:14 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:15:14 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <20071030091233.hpupjlpyoosc4gk0@webmail.duke.edu> Message-ID: America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the originator of capitalism: I. capitalism. 1816 Headline: From the Columbian. South America; Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; Location: New York, New York [EAN] Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of capitalism for their private advantage. [And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; Location: Maysville, Kentucky [EAN] General Carrera had used great exertions to put down _capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and to promote the general good. [So there! :-) ] II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, American Oracle of Liberty; Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; Location: Worcester, Massachusetts [The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. Joel At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > >>capitalism (OED 1854) >> >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a >>plutocracy. > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 >Category:News >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] >London, July 28 >... >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > >SG > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:20:43 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:20:43 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF72@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Fred and Stephen, May I use the names of your distinguished universities to urge Harvard to subscribe to 19th Century British Library Newspapers? (I've been told they're considering it, "but since it's on microfilm ..."). Joel At 10/30/2007 09:30 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library >Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our >readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, >warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:28:58 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:28:58 -0400 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <746263.88868.qm@web53912.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. As my mother the high school English teacher told me, learn a new word every day. Thanks, JL. And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Oct 30 22:47:26 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:47:26 -0400 Subject: "clapped-out" arrives at the front page of the NY Times Message-ID: "Clapped-out" has arrived at the front page of the NY Times (Tues. Oct. 30, 1/1): Cullen, a laconic fellow with disheveled hair and a cigarette sagging from his lips, is maneuvering a clapped-out Toyota down a suburban Johannesburg street. Another new WOTD for me, but I see that OED2 has it from 1946. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Tue Oct 30 23:13:37 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:13:37 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" Message-ID: 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk University, Boston. Not in OED. Why the cover-up? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Oct 30 23:59:48 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:59:48 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" In-Reply-To: <314525.98419.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2007, at 4:13 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I > will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of > dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the > internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, > which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk > University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? "chiasmatic" for the anatomical term (relating to the optic chiasm (a)) and the cytological term (referring to cross-overs in genes) is in the OED (1997 revisions); AHD4 gives "chiasmal" and "chiasmic" as well as "chiasmatic" in these senses. for the adjective related to the literary figure chiasmus (or chiasm), most people seem to use "chiastic", and the OED has long had an entry for *that*. "chiasmatic crossings" borders on redundancy. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Tue Oct 30 23:59:54 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <200710302221.l9UML3To031697@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel, I'm not sure what you can use the university name for except to say that I as an individual employee of the university have found this database to have some value. Note that Yale has not subscribed to it, only gotten a trial, and it is questionable whether Yale will subscribe because it is very expensive (around $100,000, I believe). Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:20 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Linguistic" Fred and Stephen, May I use the names of your distinguished universities to urge Harvard to subscribe to 19th Century British Library Newspapers? (I've been told they're considering it, "but since it's on microfilm ..."). Joel At 10/30/2007 09:30 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >linguistic (OED 1856) > >1827 _Caledonian Mercury_ 9 Apr. (19th Century British Library >Newspapers) We select some of these for the amusement of our >readers, as peculiarly characteristic of a clear-headed, >warm-hearted, unsophisticated, though uncouth race in linguistic refinements. > >Fred Shapiro > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Fred R. Shapiro Editor >Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE BOOK OF QUOTATIONS > Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press >Yale Law School ISBN 0300107986 >e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 00:05:15 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:05:15 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <200710302215.l9UMFYUx028945@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Joel, Do we really know that the Argentine usage of "capitalism" has the modern meaning? I had seen the 1820 citation but not posted it because I figured it was a different term, deriving perhaps from "capital" in the sense that Buenos Aires is the capital of the country rather than from financial "capital." Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:15 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the originator of capitalism: I. capitalism. 1816 Headline: From the Columbian. South America; Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; Location: New York, New York [EAN] Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of capitalism for their private advantage. [And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; Location: Maysville, Kentucky [EAN] General Carrera had used great exertions to put down _capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and to promote the general good. [So there! :-) ] II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, American Oracle of Liberty; Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; Location: Worcester, Massachusetts [The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. Joel At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > >>capitalism (OED 1854) >> >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a >>plutocracy. > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 >Category:News >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] >London, July 28 >... >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground which it has >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > >SG > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 00:27:46 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:27:46 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Linguistic" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF8C@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 10/30/2007 07:59 PM, Fred Shapiro wrote: >Joel, > >I'm not sure what you can use the university name for except to say >that I as an individual employee of the university have found this >database to have some value. Note that Yale has not subscribed to >it, only gotten a trial, and it is questionable whether Yale will >subscribe because it is very expensive (around $100,000, I believe). Fair use of Yale's name? "In his research, Fred Shapiro, editor of the excellent _Yale Book of Quotations_, has found Yale's access to the _19th Century British Library Newspapers_ database to be very valuable." (Just kidding; but I might say that I know that Yale and Duke have access to it.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 00:28:56 2007 From: Fred.Shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:28:56 -0400 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grant, Could you please make the following updates to my media queries bio: Please change "Yale Dictionary of Quotations" to "Yale Book of Quotations" both places where it appears. Please change (Yale University Press, forthcoming, intended ...) to (Yale University Press, 2006, intended ...) Thanks, Fred # Fred R. Shapiro Associate Librarian for Collections and Access and Lecturer in Legal Research, Yale Law School; Editor, Yale Dictionary of Quotations Areas of Expertise: Origins of quotations, origins of words. Publications: # Yale Dictionary of Quotations (Yale University Press, forthcoming, intended to be the most authoritative quotation dictionary) # Stumpers!: Answers to Hundreds of Questions That Stumped the Experts (Random House, 1998) # Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations (Oxford University Press, 1993) Contact Fred Shapiro: fred.shapiro at yale.edu Office: (203) 432-4840 ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Grant Barrett [gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 12:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: WOTY Season As the words-of-the-year season has begun with Webster's New World College Dictionary's "grass station" (), I'd like to remind everyone that we have a "media queries" page on the ADS web site: http://tinyurl.com/336gfu Any ADS member is invited to be a part of the media queries page. It usually results in a couple of calls a month, though more in December in January. If you'd like to be on it, please send me the following: Name Professional affiliation Very short bio: "I am an XXX for YYY Company/University with expertise in WWWW-ology, ZZZZ-ism, and TTTT-dom." Recent or relevant publications (a few, please, not dozens) Contact information: email, phone, mailing address. If you are already on that page, please verify that your details are correct. Grant Barrett Vice President of Communications and Technology American Dialect Society http://www.americandialect.org gbarrett at worldnewyork.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 00:36:49 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:36:49 -0500 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710302313.l9UMKtRJ002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Chiasmatic -- is that a Chia pet in the throes of passion? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:14 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) > 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic > crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the > external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and > depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk > University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection > around http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 00:47:41 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:47:41 -0500 Subject: More color confusion (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710301541.l9UFV3RG009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I may have mentioned this here before. I, like most guys I know, believe that 90% of colors encountered are either red, blue, green or beige, and can be described with those words plus the modifiers "light", "dark", and "kinda". (You'll note I left black off the list. No need for it. That suit isn't black, it's just dark blue. Whadda ya mean it's black? Stand over in that light over there. See?) My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). When we painted our hallway, we had to get color samples. I now realize the many "colors" that exist are just a ruse by Sherwin Williams. > > > My wife says the color "topaz" is a dark yellow, and OED > shows she's right. The color name has been in use for at > least a century. > > However, when she recently ordered a fashion item in > "topaz" from a well-known catalogue, the item was a light > blue, very close to turquoise. But "turquoise" was an > alternative color choice in that very same catalogue! > > Customer relations patiently explained that "topaz" really > is light blue but no green as turquoise. Proof? The > manufacturer has indeed designated the light-blue color as "topaz." > And the OED definition, which was read to them, counts for > nada. So: credit but no free return shipping. > > As a guy, I don't know "topaz." It's a kinda rock, isn't > it? Could be any color. Probably gray. > > JL > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Wed Oct 31 00:51:18 2007 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:51:18 -0400 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710310037.l9UNj6S0009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Chiasmatic -- is that a Chia pet in the throes of passion? If it gets breathless, it's chiasthmatic. James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 01:13:13 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:13:13 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782017D19EF8D@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: Fred, My impression from having quickly perused the two articles (1816, 1817) was that "capitalism" was a use of the monetary sense. To me the 1816 quote's "for their private advantage" and the 1817 quote's "general good" seems more likely to refer to economics than to the capital of the country. The 1917 article also speaks of trade and of the junta at Buenos Ayres appropriating to themselves the emoluments consequent on a revolution. ... Having gone back to the 1815 and 1817 articles now, one person might read "capitalism" as economic, while another might read it as referring to the centralized, dictatorial "junta" at Buenos Ayres. A historian of Argentina might be needed to clarify this. For the latter, http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/samerica/argentina18161870.html "The United Provinces of La Plata saw the emergence of two political groupings : the UNITARIANS favouring a strong centralist state, and the FEDERALISTS who advocated strong regional autonomy. As the regional political strongmen (CAUDILLOS) resisted attempts to impose central authority from Buenos Aires, the country found itself in a protracted civil war." (This I think is after 1817.) Joel At 10/30/2007 08:05 PM, you wrote: >Joel, > >Do we really know that the Argentine usage of "capitalism" has the >modern meaning? I had seen the 1820 citation but not posted it >because I figured it was a different term, deriving perhaps from >"capital" in the sense that Buenos Aires is the capital of the >country rather than from financial "capital." > >Fred Shapiro > > > >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Joel S. Berson [Berson at ATT.NET] >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:15 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Antedating of "Capitalism" and "capitalist" > >America, the originator of "capitalism " -- and Argentina, the >originator of capitalism: > >I. capitalism. 1816 > >Headline: From the Columbian. South America; >Paper: Shamrock, published as The Shamrock; >Date: 05-18-1816; Volume: I; Issue: 34; Page: 270; >Location: New York, New York >[EAN] > >Artigas has declared that he will protect the province of Santa Fe, >which, armed _en masse_, ... is preparing to unite with the other >provinces, to drive out the horde of seditious and barbarous wretches >who have been collected together at Buenos Ayres ever since the >commencement of the revolution, maintaining the destructive system of >capitalism for their private advantage. > >[And a year or so later from the same unsettled area of both the >above and Stephen's 1820 citation:] > >Headline: Latest from South America. New-York, June 16; >Paper: Eagle, published as The Eagle.; >Date: 07-11-1817; Volume: IV; Issue: 5; Page: [1]; >Location: Maysville, Kentucky >[EAN] > >General Carrera had used great exertions to put down >_capitalism_---in the arrogant pretensions of B. A. individuals, and >to promote the general good. > >[So there! :-) ] > >II. capitalist 1781 (OED2 1792-) > >Headline: A Memorial to Their High Mightinesses, the States General >of the United Provinces of the Low-Countries; >Paper: Massachusetts Spy, published as The Massachusetts Spy: Or, >American Oracle of Liberty; >Date: 10-11-1781; Volume: XI; Issue: 544; Page: [1] col. 2; >Location: Worcester, Massachusetts >[The Spy was (generally) Isaiah Thomas's paper.] > >It may not however be amiss to hint that the central situation of >this country [not England; see the headline], her extensive >navigation, her possessions in the East and West-Indies, the >intelligence of her merchants, the number of her capitalists, and the >riches of her funds, render a connection with her very desirable to America. > >Joel > >At 10/30/2007 09:12 AM, you wrote: > >Quoting "Shapiro, Fred" : > > > >>capitalism (OED 1854) > >> > >>1848 _Caledonian Mercury_ 25 Sept. (19th Century British Library > >>Newspapers) Lord George Bentinck ... gathered them once more > >>together to resist once more that sweeping tide of capitalism and > >>money-loving which threatens our country with the horrors of a > >>plutocracy. > > > > > >PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE > >Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh, Scotland), July 31, 1820; Issue 15431 > >Category:News > >[19th Century British Library Newspapers] > >London, July 28 > >... > >Extract of a letter from Buenos Ayres, dated 8th May. > >Our political affairs have not yet settled into tranquility and order; the > >spirit of capitalism still exerts itself for regaining the ground > which it has > >lost, and is assisted by the remains of Pueyrredon's adherents. > > > >SG > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 01:52:05 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:52:05 -0400 Subject: Suicide Circuit (1943, rodeo) Message-ID: I don't know if OED, HDAS, or DARE has anything prepared for "suicide circuit." ... ... ... http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/suicide_circuit_rodeo/ ... Entry from October 30, 2007 Suicide Circuit (rodeo) Rodeo is the official state sport of Texas. It's tough for the rodeo performers, who often suffer many injuries. The term "suicide circuit" for the rodeo business has been in use since at least 1943. There is an isolated 1925 use of "suicide circuit" in the theatre. 29 November 1925, New York (NY) Times, pg. X2: The fact of the matter is in such towns as Rochester, Syracuse, Washington, Baltimore, Toledo and others like them that they became known to managers as the "Death Trail" or the "Suicide Circuit." It was a tradition that once a show started on that dark journey it never got to New York. It was not only a tradition; it was a fact. (The theatre?ed.) 10 October 1943, Los Angeles (CA) Times, "Rodeo Girl," pg. G8: TAKE a look?it isn't difficult?at that girl on the left. She's in the news because she's hitting the horsehide "suicide circuit" in New York's Madison Square Garden for the first time. 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. 3, col. 1: "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. Shoulders, champion All Around Cowboy, champion Bareback Bronc Rider and champion Bull Rider for 1956, has no romantic notions about professional rodeo. He stays with it for one reason: the money. It was the money that first got him into rodeo 14 years ago. 22 August 1957, (Pasco, WA), pg. 1, col. 3: This year, nationally-famous such as Harley-May, Jim Shoulders, Deb Copenhaver and other "suicide circuit" headliners will be home, only the top waddies will actually be seen by spectators. Time magazine The Suicide Circuit Monday, Nov. 18, 1957 (..) Wear & Tear. Rodeo riding, Shoulders argues, is the roughest racket in sport. But it is not the physical danger that concerns him. "There is absolutely no money guarantee," he complains. "You've even got to furnish your own equipment, and you have to pay entry fees to compete. If you're hurt, you have to sort of scuffle around for yourself." 20 December 1959, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Birth of the Rodeo Finals" by Bill Rives, section 2, pg. 2: The sport of rodeo is so rugged that the cowboys who participate in it refer to their annual ride-and-rope tour as "The Suicide Circuit." These indestructible sons of the range country earn their living by trying to stay aboard stomping, twisting, enraged horses and bulls and by roping and wrestling unfriendly bulls and calves. It's a hazardous profession and the cowboy takes great pride in it. A busted rib, a goring scar is a badge of honor, although he'd gruffly deny it. 3 September 1971, New York (NY) Times, Books of The Times: A Tough Way to Earn a Living" by Thomas Lask, pg. 25: RODEO! The Suicide Circuit. Text and photographs by Fred Schnell. Rand McNally. $12.95. Google Books by Howard Roberts Lamar New York, NY: Crowell 1977 Pg. 1031: It is the "suicide" circuit. A most important characteristic of the rodeo cowboy is his feeling of independence: no sponsors, no guarantee, and no salary. 19 June 1977, Dallas (TX) Morning News, "Texas lore from Neiman's to Rodeos to Rednecks" by Charles Martin, section G, pg. 5: Mansfield, in "Rodeo Cowboy, 1976," discusses the "All-American sport" and the nature of the men who are attracted to the "suicide circuit." 20 September 1981, New York (NY) Times, "Rodeo Is Riding High Again" by Scott Eyman, pp. SM20+: "Personally, I don't want to rodeo even 10 more years; they don't call it the 'suicide circuit' for nothing." 6 March 1988, New York (NY) Times, "For Nomadic Rodeo Cowboys, a Few Dollars More" by James Hirsch, pg. F10, col. 1: Sponsors have increased purses, but pros still call it the "suicide circuit." 18 June 1989, New York (NY) Times, "Rounding Up an American Tradition" by Judith Shulevitz, pg. XX14: Whatever the setting, old-timers don't call it "the suicide circuit" for nothing. The danger and excitement of rodeo is palpable, whether you are watching the three riding events or the speed events of roping and steer wrestling. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Oct 31 02:15:52 2007 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 02:15:52 +0000 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" Message-ID: My Blackberry spell checker corrects CHIASMATIC to CHEESEBURGER. I hope Mr. Popik will take note. ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter Sender: American Dialect Society To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ReplyTo: American Dialect Society Sent: Oct 30, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: [ADS-L] litcrit "chiasmatic" 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - especially the external and the internal, visible and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, which the metaphors of penetration figure. Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English at Suffolk University, Boston. Not in OED. Why the cover-up? JL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Oct 31 02:56:03 2007 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:56:03 -0500 Subject: More color confusion Message-ID: I'm partial to adding yellow, orange, and purple and further submit that any of these colors may be adverbialized by the suffix -ish, such as "a kinda reddish purple". Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" I may have mentioned this here before. I, like most guys I know, believe that 90% of colors encountered are either red, blue, green or beige, and can be described with those words plus the modifiers "light", "dark", and "kinda". (You'll note I left black off the list. No need for it. That suit isn't black, it's just dark blue. Whadda ya mean it's black? Stand over in that light over there. See?) My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). When we painted our hallway, we had to get color samples. I now realize the many "colors" that exist are just a ruse by Sherwin Williams. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 12:05:10 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:05:10 -0400 Subject: WOTY preview (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette) Message-ID: A preview of WOTY season, with quotes from Wayne Glowka and Grant Barrett: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07304/829837-51.stm --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From goranson at DUKE.EDU Wed Oct 31 12:18:59 2007 From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:18:59 -0400 Subject: antedating of fiasco (1827ff) Message-ID: OED2 has 1855 sense 2 {"...of obscure origin..."), "A failure or break-down in a dramatic or musical performance. Also in a general sense: An ignominious failure, a 'mull'" How early does fiasco appear in Italian with this sense? Do the earliest Italian uses appear with a simple failure (say, a boring opera) or with an ignominious or disastrous failure? Are there commendable articles on this word? ads-l archives has 1842 1nd 1844 quotations. 1827 May. The Oriental herald and colonial review v. XIII ed. by James Silk Buckingham p.229 [Google Books full view; apparently genuine]{In Italy at a performance of a the opera Giovanna by Vaccaij] People began to mutter 'pasticcio,' a phrase by which they are wont to indicate music made up of odds and ends ; and every thing seemed to portend a fiasco, (in musical phraseology, a failure.) A fine duet, however...turned the scale, and put the audience in good humour. 1841 Cecil: or, The adventures of a coxcomb. A novel. 2nd ed. v.2 p.11 [Google Books full view]. [By Mrs. Catherine Grace F. Gore] I was fain to confess that, with all my tact and cleverness, my season had been a failure. I had achieved nothing. My advantages had been great, the result--fiasco! 1841 April The Foreign Quarterly Review p. 118 [GoBk, fv] .. the prying public recognize in a new manoeuvre, anything that has been used before, they hiss it; the ballet is damned, and in this fiasco all the splendid costumes [etc.]...condemned to vanish.... The following are from British Library 19th Century British Newspapers (accessed on an individual not institutional trial basis). Some correspondent apparently quite liked the word. MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), July 25, 1841; Issue 148 When transplanted to Turin a decided _fiasco_ followed, though the principal _artistes_ were the same. [Oberto by Verdi creates a _furore_ in one city and meets with a _fiasco_ in another] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 5, 1841; Issue 167 anticipated the fiasco [a singer omitted some songs, knowing that] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 11, 1842; Issue 220 a downright fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 29, 1844; Issue 327 met with a fiasco [audience reception--cold?] [has been got up and played in Vienna to considerable applause] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 29, 1844; Issue 327 fiasco [some call for carriage to leave early] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), June 8, 1845; Issue 350 met with a fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), November 30, 1845; Issue 375 a "fiasco" in the Haymarket is a thing unknown MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 With my support you succeed; without it you incur fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 tears...could not avert a fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 [letter on corn laws fuss...fiasco] MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), December 21, 1845; Issue 378 season commenced inauspiciously...At Venice Genoa and Milan the fiasco has been general ....[success mitigated] fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), February 22, 1846; Issue 387 [one success [a dancer]] in the midst of the general fiasco MUSIC AND THE DRAMA The Era (London, England), March 29, 1846; Issue 392 met with rude fiasco Stephen Goranson http://www.duke.edu/~goranson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ullans at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 13:16:45 2007 From: ullans at YAHOO.COM (Montgomery Michael) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:16:45 -0700 Subject: WOTY Season In-Reply-To: <200710301835.l9UFV3IG009039@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear Arnold About half of the postings from you, including the one below,end up automatically in my Bulk file, which I check not very often. Any idea why this happens? Yours are one of the few postings I ever read. Please don't get involved in the antedating chase. There are too many messages of that kind already, and it takes several rounds a day to weed out ADS-L postings that are of no interest to me. I know that you have some familiarity with my dictionary of mountain English. This is to let you know that I am in rather late stages of revising and expanding that work, which will cover a rather broader territory. If you have any suggestions regarding format, or indeed the treatment of any specific terms in the dictionary, I would be pleased to hear from you. I am afriad that the reading for citations could proceed forever, as engrossing as it is to unearth obscure publications and other documents from southern Appalachia - I could probably read a volume a day of hillbilly stories from now till 2010 - but I must close this stage of the work by the end of December, with many bridges still to cross. But I would do my best to attend to any recommendations you might have. All the best Michael --- "Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > Subject: Re: WOTY Season > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Oct 30, 2007, at 9:46 AM, you wrote: > > > If you are already on that page, please verify > that your details are > > correct. > > > my details are essentially correct, but i'd like to > expand things > somewhat: > > 1. after my title, add a line with my webpage: > http://www-csli.stanford.edu/~zwicky > > 2. add to areas of expertise: > formulaic language, literature giving advice on > grammar, style, > and usage > > 3. add to publications: > numerous postings to Language Log [add link to > LL] since 2003 > > 4. my phone situation has changed. i used to work > mostly at my > private office, but since june 2006, stanford has > supplied me with a > real office, and i mostly work there or at home. so > probably all > three numbers should be listed: > Stanford office: (650) 725-0023. Home: (650) > 323-0753. Private > office: (650) 843-0550. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU Wed Oct 31 13:24:37 2007 From: geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU (Geoffrey S. Nathan) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:24:37 -0400 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 2007 to 30 Oct 2007 (#2007-304) In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UJw6pR002384@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Oct 31 13:56:25 2007 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:56:25 -0400 Subject: This is almost an eggcorn In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UMKtkR002327@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Charles Doyle > I wouldn't assume that the two words are "merged"--just that they > sometimes get confused as to their spelling. In some dialects (like > mine!), "addict" is pronounced the same as "attic," so it might > easily be misspelled that way. But no pronunciation-spelling will > produce "addict" for "attic," since there are no dialects (as far as > I know) that would normally add a [-t] to the end of "attic." That's > all I meant. (I'm not discounting other explanations for "addict" in > place of "attic.") Gotcha. I just figure that if there's no sound difference between the two, and people know of both words but don't necessarily know what they mean, then we might well expect both to end up substituting for the other here and there. (I see this in my 6yo's use of know and no, for example.) -- David Bowie University of Central Florida Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bapopik at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 15:13:14 2007 From: bapopik at GMAIL.COM (Barry Popik) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:13:14 -0400 Subject: Trinity (Louisiana dish of onions, celery, bell peppers) Message-ID: O.T.: There's someone hanging from a tree in the house next to mine. I hope this is for Halloween...I'll try to get to "barbecued crabs" later today. ... There's a video in today's NY Times dining section on preparing "grillades and grits," and "the trinity" is shown. Any forthcoming DARE or OED entry? Louisiana borders on Texas, so I'll probably add it to my Texas page. ... NewspaperArchive has a Ruston (LA) newspaper from the 1970s, but I didn't see "trinity" there. "Trinity" definitely shows up by the early 1980s. ... ... ... http://www.nytimes.com/pages/dining/index.html New Orleans Breakfast Grillades and Grits by John Besh ... ... http://www.cookinglouisiana.com/Cooking/The_Trinity.htm Cooking Louisiana - The Trinity Onions, Celery and Bell Pepper, The Trinity as they are known, are the beginning of many a fine dish here in South Louisiana. In my 30 years of cooking I've almost always cooked these vegetables down until they were almost mush. Why, because that's the way I learned to do it from the old folks. This holds true especially for pot roasts, gumbo, jambalaya, sauce piqaunts, etc. ... ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_(cuisine) The holy trinity of cuisine are the three ingredients key to a particular cuisine. Because these three ingredients are so common in a recipes of a specific cuisine they are almost indivisible and end up being treated as a single ingredient. They also provide the distinctive flavoring of specific cuisines. The name is an allusion to the Holy Trinity of the Christian faith. Common holy trinities in cuisine are: the Indian "wet" trinity of garlic, ginger and onion the Chinese trinity of scallions, ginger and garlic the Szechuan trinity of green garlic, ginger and chili peppers the Thai trinity of galangal, kaffir lime and lemon grass the French Mirepoix trinity of celery, onion and carrot the Lebanese trinity of garlic, lemon juice and olive oil the Italian Soffritto trinity of tomato, garlic and basil the Spanish Sofrito trinity of garlic, onion and tomato cooked in olive oil the Louisiana Creole or Cajun trinity of chopped celery, bell peppers, and onions ... ... 6 May 1984, New York (NY) TImes, pg. 437: In both Cajun and Creole cookery, finely chopped onion, celery and green peppers are the "holy trinity" of the kitchen. Tomatoes, according to Prudhomme, do not play as important a role in Cajun cookery as they do in Creole, where a great many creations would be impossible without them. The numerous ingredients native to both cuisines include cornmeal, okra, grits and, of course, crawfish. ... ... 17 August 1984, New York (NY Times, "Cajun-Creole fare comes to TriBeCa" by Marian Burros, pg. C18: Despite such lapses, Miss Trilling is generally knowledgeable about the qualities of Cajun-Creole cooking. She knew that redfish was good long before Paul Prudhomme made it famous by blackening it, and she serves it with love sauce, which is a zesty crawfish etoufee, made with crawfish fat, plus a combination known in Louisiana as the Holy Trinity: green pepper, onion and celery. ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) The Cornbread Killer - Page 219 by Lou Jane Temple - Fiction - 2000 - 272 pages ... or 1 28 oz. can whole tomatoes Tabasco or other Louisiana hot sauce 1 T. soy ... The Holy Trinity: onions, celery, and green pepper are the mirepoix of ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Cooking with Grease: Stirring the Pots in American Politics - Page 319 by Donna Brazile - Biography & Autobiography - 2004 - 352 pages ... favorable sauce that has become one of the most important staples of Louisiana cuisine. ... Step 7: Now you are ready to add the holy trinity of onions, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Good Housekeeping Great American Classics Cookbook - Page 155 by Beth Allen, Susan Westmoreland - Cooking - 2004 - 336 pages ... Acadians were expelled from settlements in Nova Scotia and headed south to Louisiana. ... And, of course, the "holy trinity" of chopped onions, celery, ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) In the Kitchen with Papa Wiltz: Favorite Cajun-Creole and Mexican-American ... - Page 1 by Francis N. Wiltz - Cooking - 2006 - 160 pages ... Cajun French spoken mainly in South Louisiana (Cajun country or Acadiana). ... of onions, bell peppers, and celery is called the "Cajun Trinity". ... ... ... (GOOGLE BOOKS) Jewish Roots in Southern Soil: A New History - Page 252 by Marcie Cohen Ferris, Mark I. Greenberg - History - 2006 - 384 pages The staple ingredients are the "holy trinity of Cajun cooking: onions, peppers, and celery," and a butter-and-flour-enriched roux that thickens the mix. ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 15:18:57 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:18:57 -0700 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <200710302229.l9UMTIlc002544@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the word simply used inaccurately or inappropriately? JIM --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > scumbled the word on the board. > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > me, learn a new > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 15:23:49 2007 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:23:49 -0700 Subject: litcrit "chiasmatic" In-Reply-To: <314525.98419.qm@web53903.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Isn't "crossings" redundant here? ...chiasmatic dichotomies --- Jonathan Lighter wrote: > 2005 Wyatt Bonikowski in _Modern Fiction Studies_ LI > (Fall) 513: I will pay particular attention to the > chiasmatic crossings of dichotomies in these texts - > especially the external and the internal, visible > and invisible, surface and depth, body and mind, > which the metaphors of penetration figure. > > Dr. Bonikowski is Assistant Professor of English > at Suffolk University, Boston. > > Not in OED. Why the cover-up? > > JL > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - > http://www.americandialect.org > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 15:51:33 2007 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:51:33 +0000 Subject: How many words in English and how many does one know? In-Reply-To: <200710311215.l9VAkQpG025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Googling on "How many words are there in English" I find counts below. Far short of a billion. http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm HOW MANY WORDS? How many in the language and how many does any one person know? One of the more common questions that arrive for the Q&A section asks how many words there are in the English language. Almost as common are requests for the average size of a person?s vocabulary. These sound like easy questions; I have to tell you that they?re indeed easy to ask. But they?re almost impossible to answer satisfactorily, because it all depends what you mean by word and by vocabulary (or even English). What we mean by word sounds obvious, but it?s not. Take a verb like climb. The rules of English allow you to generate the forms climbs, climbed, climbable, and climbing, the nouns climb and climber (and their plurals climbs and climbers), compounds such as climb-down and climbing frame, and phrasal verbs like climb on, climb over, and climb down. Now, here?s the question you?ve got to answer: are all these distinct words, or do you lump them all together under climb? That this is not a trivial question can be proved by looking at half a dozen current dictionaries. You won?t find two that agree on what to list. Almost every word in the language has this fuzzy penumbra of inflected forms, separate senses and compounds, some to a much greater extent than climb. To take a famous case, the entry for set in the Oxford English Dictionary runs to 60,000 words. The noun alone has 47 separate senses listed. Are all these distinct words? And in a wider sense, what do you include in your list of words? Do you count all the regional variations of English? Or slang? Dialect? Family or private language? Proper names and the names of places? And what about abbreviations? The biggest dictionary of them has more than 400,000 entries ? do you count them all as words? And what about informal and formal names for living things? The wood louse is known in Britain by many local names ? tiggy-hog, cheeselog, pill bug, chiggy pig, and rolypoly among others. Are these all to be counted as separate words? And, to take a more specialist example, is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the formal name for bread yeast, to be counted as a word (or perhaps two)? If you say yes, you?ve got to add another couple of million such names to the English-language word count. And what about medical terms, such as syncytiotrophoblastic or holoprosencephaly, that few of us ever encounter? The other difficult term is vocabulary. What counts as a word that somebody knows? Is it one that a person uses regularly and accurately? Or perhaps one that will be correctly recognised ? say in written text ? but not used? Or perhaps one that will be understood in context but which the person may not easily be able to define? This distinction between what linguists call active and passive vocabularies is hard to measure, and it skews estimates. The problem doesn?t stop there. English speakers not only know words, they know word-forming elements, such as the ending -phobia for some irrational fear. A journalist rushing to meet a deadline might take a word he knows, like Serb, and tack on the ending to make Serbophobia. He?s just added a word to the language (probably only temporarily), but can he really be said to have that word in his vocabulary? If nobody ever uses it again, can we legitimately count it? By reversing the coining process, a reader of the newspaper can easily work out the word?s origin and meaning. Has the reader also added a word to his vocabulary? Can you now see why estimates of the total number of words in the English language and in a person?s vocabulary are so difficult to make, and why they vary so much one from another? David Crystal, in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, suggests that there must be at least a million words in the language. Tom McArthur, in the Oxford Companion to the English Language, comes up with a similar figure. David Crystal further says that if you allow all scientific terms the total could easily reach two million (this doesn?t count the formal names for organisms I spoke about earlier, just technical vocabulary). Assessing the size of the vocabulary of an individual is at least as problematical. Take Shakespeare: you?d think it would be easy to assess his vocabulary. We have the plays and sonnets and we just have to count the words in them (according to the American Heritage Dictionary, there are 884,647 of them, made up of 29,066 distinct forms, including proper names). But estimates of Shakespeare?s vocabulary vary from about 18,000 to 25,000 in various books, because writers have different views about what constitutes a distinct word. It?s common to see figures for vocabulary quoted such as 10,000-12,000 words for a 16-year-old, and 20,000-25,000 for a college graduate. These seem not to have much research to back them up. Usually they don?t make clear whether active or passive vocabulary is being quoted, and they don?t account for differences in lifestyle, profession and hobby interests between individuals. David Crystal described a simple research project ? using random pages from a dictionary ? that suggests these figures are severe underestimates. He concludes that a better average for a college graduate might be 60,000 active words and 75,000 passive ones. But this method of assessing vocabulary counts dictionary headwords only; it would be possible to multiply it several-fold to include different senses, inflected forms, and compounds. Another assessment ? of a million-word collection of American texts ? identified about 38,000 headwords. Bearing in mind this was all general writing, this doesn?t sound so different from David Crystal?s estimates for graduate vocabularies. http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/numberwords There is no single sensible answer to this question. It is impossible to count the number of words in a language, because it is so hard to decide what counts as a word. Is dog one word, or two (a noun meaning 'a kind of animal', and a verb meaning 'to follow persistently')? If we count it as two, then do we count inflections separately too (dogs plural noun, dogs present tense of the verb). Is dog-tired a word, or just two other words joined together? Is hot dog really two words, since we might also find hot-dog or even hotdog? It is also difficult to decide what counts as 'English'. What about medical and scientific terms? Latin words used in law, French words used in cooking, German words used in academic writing, Japanese words used in martial arts? Do you count Scots dialect? Youth slang? Computing jargon? The Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary contains full entries for 171,476 words in current use, and 47,156 obsolete words. To this may be added around 9,500 derivative words included as subentries. Over half of these words are nouns, about a quarter adjectives, and about a seventh verbs; the rest is made up of interjections, conjunctions, prepositions, suffixes, etc. These figures take no account of entries with senses for different parts of speech (such as noun and adjective). This suggests that there are, at the very least, a quarter of a million distinct English words, excluding inflections, and words from technical and regional vocabulary not covered by the OED, or words not yet added to the published dictionary, of which perhaps 20 per cent are no longer in current use. If distinct senses were counted, the total would probably approach three quarters of a million. ...It seems quite probable that English has more words than most comparable world languages. The reason for this is historical. English was originally a Germanic language, related to Dutch and German, and it shares much of its grammar and basic vocabulary with those languages. However, after the Norman Conquest in 1066 it was hugely influenced by Norman French, which became the language of the ruling class for a considerable period, and by Latin, which was the language of scholarship and of the Church. Very large numbers of French and Latin words entered the language. Consequently, English has a much larger vocabulary than either the Germanic languages or the members of the Romance language family to which French belongs. English is also very ready to accommodate foreign words, and as it has become an international language, it has absorbed vocabulary from a large number of other sources. This does, of course, assume that you ignore 'agglutinative' languages such as Finnish, in which words can be stuck together in long strings of indefinite length, and which therefore have an almost infinite number of 'words'. http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm HOW MANY WORDS? How many in the language and how manydoes any one person know? One of the more common questions that arrive for the Q&A section asks how many words there are in the English language. Almost as common are requests for the average size of a person?s vocabulary. These sound like easy questions; I have to tell you that they?re indeed easy to ask. But they?re almost impossible to answer satisfactorily, because it all depends what you mean by word and by vocabulary (or even English). What we mean by word sounds obvious, but it?s not. Take a verb like climb. The rules of English allow you to generate the forms climbs, climbed, climbable, and climbing, the nouns climb and climber (and their plurals climbs and climbers), compounds such as climb-down and climbing frame, and phrasal verbs like climb on, climb over, and climb down. Now, here?s the question you?ve got to answer: are all these distinct words, or do you lump them all together under climb? That this is not a trivial question can be proved by looking at half a dozen current dictionaries. You won?t find two that agree on what to list. Almost every word in the language has this fuzzy penumbra of inflected forms, separate senses and compounds, some to a much greater extent than climb. To take a famous case, the entry for set in the Oxford English Dictionary runs to 60,000 words. The noun alone has 47 separate senses listed. Are all these distinct words? And in a wider sense, what do you include in your list of words? Do you count all the regional variations of English? Or slang? Dialect? Family or private language? Proper names and the names of places? And what about abbreviations? The biggest dictionary of them has more than 400,000 entries ? do you count them all as words? And what about informal and formal names for living things? The wood louse is known in Britain by many local names ? tiggy-hog, cheeselog, pill bug, chiggy pig, and rolypoly among others. Are these all to be counted as separate words? And, to take a more specialist example, is Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the formal name for bread yeast, to be counted as a word (or perhaps two)? If you say yes, you?ve got to add another couple of million such names to the English-language word count. And what about medical terms, such as syncytiotrophoblastic or holoprosencephaly, that few of us ever encounter? The other difficult term is vocabulary. What counts as a word that somebody knows? Is it one that a person uses regularly and accurately? Or perhaps one that will be correctly recognised ? say in written text ? but not used? Or perhaps one that will be understood in context but which the person may not easily be able to define? This distinction between what linguists call active and passive vocabularies is hard to measure, and it skews estimates. The problem doesn?t stop there. English speakers not only know words, they know word-forming elements, such as the ending -phobia for some irrational fear. A journalist rushing to meet a deadline might take a word he knows, like Serb, and tack on the ending to make Serbophobia. He?s just added a word to the language (probably only temporarily), but can he really be said to have that word in his vocabulary? If nobody ever uses it again, can we legitimately count it? By reversing the coining process, a reader of the newspaper can easily work out the word?s origin and meaning. Has the reader also added a word to his vocabulary? Can you now see why estimates of the total number of words in the English language and in a person?s vocabulary are so difficult to make, and why they vary so much one from another? David Crystal, in the Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language, suggests that there must be at least a million words in the language. Tom McArthur, in the Oxford Companion to the English Language, comes up with a similar figure. David Crystal further says that if you allow all scientific terms the total could easily reach two million (this doesn?t count the formal names for organisms I spoke about earlier, just technical vocabulary). Assessing the size of the vocabulary of an individual is at least as problematical. Take Shakespeare: you?d think it would be easy to assess his vocabulary. We have the plays and sonnets and we just have to count the words in them (according to the American Heritage Dictionary, there are 884,647 of them, made up of 29,066 distinct forms, including proper names). But estimates of Shakespeare?s vocabulary vary from about 18,000 to 25,000 in various books, because writers have different views about what constitutes a distinct word. It?s common to see figures for vocabulary quoted such as 10,000-12,000 words for a 16-year-old, and 20,000-25,000 for a college graduate. These seem not to have much research to back them up. Usually they don?t make clear whether active or passive vocabulary is being quoted, and they don?t account for differences in lifestyle, profession and hobby interests between individuals. David Crystal described a simple research project ? using random pages from a dictionary ? that suggests these figures are severe underestimates. He concludes that a better average for a college graduate might be 60,000 active words and 75,000 passive ones. But this method of assessing vocabulary counts dictionary headwords only; it would be possible to multiply it several-fold to include different senses, inflected forms, and compounds. Another assessment ? of a million-word collection of American texts ? identified about 38,000 headwords. Bearing in mind this was all general writing, this doesn?t sound so different from David Crystal?s estimates for graduate vocabularies. Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Oct 31 16:12:14 2007 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:12:14 -0500 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: A<340130.46162.qm@web50605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other interpretations though. Gerald Cohen > ---------- > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the word simply used inaccurately or > inappropriately? > > JIM > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > me, learn a new > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > Joel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 16:14:55 2007 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:14:55 -0400 Subject: How many words in English and how many does one know? In-Reply-To: <200710311551.l9VAkQ6u030574@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/31/07, Tom Zurinskas wrote: > > Googling on "How many words are there in English" I find counts below. Far > short of a billion. > > http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/howmany.htm Just to repeat: no one is claiming that there are a billion words in English. As I explained the first time Tom brought it up (on Oct. 18), headlines last year proclaiming "English Language Hits 1 Billion Words" were based on a misunderstanding: the Oxford English Corpus had reached the one-billion-word mark, meaning that the OEC contained a billion *tokens* (instances of words in the collected texts), rather than a billion distinct lexical items. (As the OEC continues to grow, that figure has now surpassed two billion.) Once again, here is a link to my Language Log post discussing the erroneous headlines: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003073.html --Ben Zimmer ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From James.Landau at NGC.COM Wed Oct 31 17:11:03 2007 From: James.Landau at NGC.COM (Landau, James) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:11:03 -0500 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710310403.l9UJErWc008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have in front of me two restaurant menus. One is from the Bonefish Grill, which is a chain with six restaurants in New Jersey (bonefishgrill.com). The menu contains: Bang Bang Shrimp $8.5 Mussels Josephine $8.8 Ahi Tuna Sashimi half $8.8 full $14.9 Grouper Piccata $19.5 Diablo Shrimp Fettuccine $13.2 Tenderloin Portabella Piccata $14.2 Lily's Chicken $13.5 Fontina Chops $13.9 Sirloin Steak 10 ounce $13.9 (add Garlic Gorgonzola butter $1.5) That is, all prices on the menu are in true decimal, in tenths of a dollar rather than in cents (hundredths of a dollar). The other menu is from the Joy Luck Palace, a Chinese restaurant which just reopened, under a different name (it used to be the China Buffet), after remodeling. All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. Egg Drop Soup.............2 Hot and Sour Soup........3 Egg Roll......................2 Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 Moo Shu Pork..............9 Beef with Broccoli........10 Sauteed Steak Kew......15 These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) OT to Bill Mullins: you say My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for all I know). According to MWCD10 page 1207 column 2, taupe is "a brownish gray". Note that M-W says this flatly without saying, as they sometimes do with colors, "chartreuse: a variable color averaging a brilliant yellow green". Mauve, on the other hand, is a specific color, that of the aniline dye mauveine, discovered serendipitously by William Perkins in 1856. (For more information see http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/colors/3.htm). OT to Barry Popik: you quoted: 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. 3, col. 1: "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. Is there a mistake here? A quarter million in ten years is only $25,000 per year, which was good but not spectacularly great back in 1957 (the equivalent of between $100K and $150K in today's dollars.) James A. Landau test engineer Northrop-Grumman Information Technology 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ GZTWP PPKSZ YZTRV NAZTI EJONB SZFPQ RUBGX PLZYG YAIXJ SZRCT ZZAAW LAKOK TQRZA HHNFH JHFNF GZBPG ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 17:52:33 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:52:33 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <13280216D124A442894C10E8856CF52CB0CD15@XMBIL101.northgrum. com> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. > Egg Drop Soup.............2 > Hot and Sour Soup........3 > Egg Roll......................2 > Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > Moo Shu Pork..............9 > Beef with Broccoli........10 > Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > >These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because >they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop >Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > >Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. IIRC, I've never seen just dimes after the decimal point. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 17:56:44 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:56:44 -0400 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <12BE27D86D9F9B4C8DB30F421A02869C1F6C24@UMR-CMAIL2.umr.edu> Message-ID: I took JL's use as "To soften or render less brilliant" (OED2, sense 1.a); for the writing on the board, "to obscure". But of course he's the one to say. > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. Joel At 10/31/2007 12:12 PM, you wrote: >Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other >interpretations though. > >Gerald Cohen > > > ---------- > > > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the > word simply used inaccurately or > > inappropriately? > > > > JIM > > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > > me, learn a new > > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:15:30 2007 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:15:30 -0400 Subject: Eggcorn: *mooted* > *muted* Message-ID: Spotted today in an MSN Sky Sports story about a confirmed English bid to host the 2018 football World Cup Finals: 'A bid for the 2018 finals has been muted for some time' near the beginning of the story 'FA confirm World Cup bid' at http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_2839166,00.html In this re-spelling of the less common *mooted*, the meaning 'suggested discreetly, in the inner circles' has been preserved and transferred to the commoner *muted*, which could also have connotations of discreetness through silence. The transfer is helped by the near-homophony of the two words (in this case, there probably isn't absolute homophony, since the website is a British one, and few British accents omit the glide in *mute*; those that do are spoken by minorities of the population). Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:25:54 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311753.l9VHqumR016195@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. >> Egg Drop Soup.............2 >> Hot and Sour Soup........3 >> Egg Roll......................2 >> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 >> Moo Shu Pork..............9 >> Beef with Broccoli........10 >> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 >> >> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's >> because >> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg >> Drop >> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >> >> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in > restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some > time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but > achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > IIRC, I've never > seen just dimes after the decimal point. i don't recall seeing that either. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET Wed Oct 31 18:28:05 2007 From: cats22 at FRONTIERNET.NET (Doug Harris) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:28:05 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311753.l9VFx7Dm025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But I'll bet you _have_ seen the opposite extreme: the dollar symbol and the _word_ dollars used together. And, additionally, the positioning of a dollar sign after the number. Though both these are relatively uncommon, compared to _proper_ usages, they crop up often enough to be noteworthy. (I have to pass a big-sign example of the former every time I pass a Chevy dealership in a nearby town, where they proclaim they have "Many cars Below $10,000 Dollars". Um, I think they mean _less than_, but that's a subject for a separate discussion!) (the other) doug --------- --------------- ---------------- ------------ IIRC, I've never seen just dimes after the decimal point. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 18:28:16 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:28:16 -0400 Subject: Eggcorn: *mooted* > *muted* In-Reply-To: <1193854530.4728c642788d3@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Hardly muted, if were talking about British football and its fans. Joel At 10/31/2007 02:15 PM, you wrote: >Spotted today in an MSN Sky Sports story about a confirmed English bid to host >the 2018 football World Cup Finals: > >'A bid for the 2018 finals has been muted for some time' >near the beginning of the story 'FA confirm World Cup bid' at >http://msnsport.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_2839166,00.html > >In this re-spelling of the less common *mooted*, the meaning 'suggested >discreetly, in the inner circles' has been preserved and transferred to the >commoner *muted*, which could also have connotations of discreetness through >silence. The transfer is helped by the near-homophony of the two words (in >this case, there probably isn't absolute homophony, since the website is a >British one, and few British accents omit the glide in *mute*; those that do >are spoken by minorities of the population). > >Damien Hall >University of Pennsylvania > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Wed Oct 31 18:41:49 2007 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles Doyle) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:41:49 -0400 Subject: noncents Message-ID: The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to deserve eating there? --Charlie ____________________________________________________________ ---- Original message ---- >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 >From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > >On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: >>> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. >>> Egg Drop Soup.............2 >>> Hot and Sour Soup........3 >>> Egg Roll......................2 >>> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 >>> Moo Shu Pork..............9 >>> Beef with Broccoli........10 >>> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 >>> >>> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's >>> because >>> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg >>> Drop >>> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >>> >>> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >>> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? >> >> I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in >> restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some >> time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but >> achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. > >palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > >> IIRC, I've never >> seen just dimes after the decimal point. > >i don't recall seeing that either. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 18:47:49 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:47:49 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <20071031144149.IQE10034@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 02:41 PM, Charles Doyle wrote: >The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is significantly >cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to deserve eating there? Well, Arnold was writing about Palo Alto, home of dot-coms and Stanford ... Joel >--Charlie >____________________________________________________________ >---- Original message ---- > >Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:25:54 -0700 > >From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > > > > >On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > >> At 10/31/2007 01:11 PM, James A. Landau wrote: > >>> All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g. > >>> Egg Drop Soup.............2 > >>> Hot and Sour Soup........3 > >>> Egg Roll......................2 > >>> Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > >>> Moo Shu Pork..............9 > >>> Beef with Broccoli........10 > >>> Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > >>> > >>> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's > >>> because > >>> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg > >>> Drop > >>> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > >>> > >>> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > >>> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > >> > >> I vaguely recall seeing this once or perhaps twice, but in > >> restaurants where the soup might have been 5 and the pork 25 (some > >> time ago) -- that is, in an upscale (meaning intending classiness but > >> achieving perhaps only high-priciness) restaurant. > > > >palo alto has a pile of upscale restaurants, and a fair number of > them have prices listed in whole dollars. one (the California > Cafe) seems to have everything in quarters (7.00, 7.25, 7.50, 7.75, > 8.00). a few are really into that annoying X.95 thing. > > > >> IIRC, I've never > >> seen just dimes after the decimal point. > > > >i don't recall seeing that either. > > > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 19:34:13 2007 From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:34:13 -0700 Subject: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] In-Reply-To: <200710311757.l9VFx7F8025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My eighth-grade art teacher was the first person I ever heard use the word to "scumble." As I recall, he said it meant to rub and rub a line, as sketched, for example, with charcoal, so as to eliminate any sharp edges and present a subdued less distinct effect. Perhaps I should have said, "electronically scumbled." The image of the word "ass" (short for "jackass") was not blacked or blanked out, just softened to the point where you might or might not be able to think you could actually see it. I imagine the technical term would be "pixelated," but, as so often, underlying linguistic structures deployed innovative figuration in unpacking the inarguably absent essence of the reports, though merely prolegomenon to the necessary political meta-(anal)ysis. JL "Joel S. Berson" wrote: ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender: American Dialect Society Poster: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: "scumble" [Was: Inconsistent taboos on Fox News] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I took JL's use as "To soften or render less brilliant" (OED2, sense 1.a); for the writing on the board, "to obscure". But of course he's the one to say. > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >On one show they both refused to utter it and scumbled the word on the board. Joel At 10/31/2007 12:12 PM, you wrote: >Maybe a lexical blend: scramble + jumble. I'm open to other >interpretations though. > >Gerald Cohen > > > ---------- > > > Original message, Oct. 31, 2007 9:18 AM from James Smith: > > So exactly what does "scumble" mean in this sense? Or was the > word simply used inaccurately or > > inappropriately? > > > > JIM > > --- "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > > > At 10/30/2007 12:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >On one show they both refused to utter it and > > > scumbled the word on the board. > > > > > > As my mother the high school English teacher told > > > me, learn a new > > > word every day. Thanks, JL. > > > > > > And OED2 does not have this non-artistic sense. > > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Oct 31 20:28:43 2007 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:28:43 -0500 Subject: Snowclone on Language Log (and So Can You!) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <200710311848.l9VHX0Dk030570@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE With apologies, I quote almost all of Geoff Pullum's recent Language Log post (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005075.html ): **************** October 31, 2007 And so can you (be) The quick eye of Mark Liberman recently spotted what may be the fastest ever emergence of a new phrase into snowclonehood when Steven Colbert's book title I Am America (And So Can You!) was picked up by Guy Trebay of the New York Times after just three weeks: Trebay's pastiched article title She's Famous (and So Can You) has just the same syntactic property - an ungrammatical (or at least strikingly and off-puttingly unusual) deletion of a repeat occurrence of be. [I'm assuming here that I am America (and so can you be!) is fully grammatical and acceptable, and so is She's famous (and so can you be). The near-prohibition of deleting non-finite forms of be under identity of sense was studied in a nice doctoral dissertation by Nancy Levin at The Ohio State University some years ago.] **************** Geoff has analyzed this snowclone as if the grammatical error to be corrected is in the second half of the snowclone. There's nothing wrong with that, but to my mind, the part that reads the "rightest" (in the context of the joke) is the second half, and mentally I try to force the first half into a correct structure. That isn't as easy to do as adding "be" to the end of the second half (which may be why Geoff did it the way he did it). I suppose that it could be reworked into "I Am [Being] America (And So Can You!)". Not having the linguistic training of Geoff or others on this list, I'm treading on dangerous ground when I analyze this snowclone. But to me, it works because it is contrasting the first phrase (which has a state-of-being verb) with the second (which wants to refer back to an active verb). Geoff's "fix" makes the second phrase consistent with state-of-being; my mind wants to make the first phrase have some kind of active verb. And the difficulty of doing that is why the book title is funny. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 20:54:45 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:54:45 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <20071031144149.IQE10034@punts2.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is > that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there > shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could > be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is > significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to > deserve eating there? why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's simpler for everybody. i could ask some of them; i know several of them. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Oct 31 20:58:28 2007 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:58:28 -0700 Subject: Snowclone on Language Log (and So Can You!) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D044BA580@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Bill Mullins wrote: > With apologies, I quote almost all of Geoff Pullum's recent > Language Log > post ... > > Geoff has analyzed this snowclone as if the grammatical error to be > corrected is in the second half of the snowclone... my take on the title, way back in may: AZ, 5/23/07: News from the further reaches of Ellipsilandia: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004522.html arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 20:59:56 2007 From: dlbrgdhl at GMAIL.COM (David Bergdahl) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:59:56 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710312054.l9VK001R025948@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think the single price menu telegraphs "upscale dining"--y'know, the kind of place with tablecloths not covered by a sheet of glass with a paper table mat. -db On 10/31/07, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky" > Subject: Re: noncents > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > > > The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is > > that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there > > shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could > > be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is > > significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to > > deserve eating there? > > why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? > especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's > simpler for everybody. > > i could ask some of them; i know several of them. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Oct 31 21:25:07 2007 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:25:07 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <18456AC7-4050-4D47-99F5-E8AFDC1FBB7C@csli.stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 10/31/2007 04:54 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote: >On Oct 31, 2007, at 11:41 AM, Charlie Doyle wrote: > >>The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >>that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >>shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >>be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is >>significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to >>deserve eating there? > >why are we trying to read such motivations into the practice? >especially contemptuously? maybe the restaurateurs just think it's >simpler for everybody. > >i could ask some of them; i know several of them. Yeah, but you're just part of the same in-crowd. But by all means get the true facts from the horse's mouth (as long as it isn't on the menu). Intended in good humor. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 21:36:46 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:36:46 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311711.l9VAkQtc030570@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 10/31/07, Landau, James wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Landau, James" > Subject: noncents > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have in front of me two restaurant menus. > > One is from the Bonefish Grill, which is a chain with six restaurants in > New Jersey (bonefishgrill.com). > The menu contains: > Bang Bang Shrimp $8.5 > Mussels Josephine $8.8 > Ahi Tuna Sashimi half $8.8 full $14.9 > Grouper Piccata $19.5 > Diablo Shrimp Fettuccine $13.2 > Tenderloin Portabella Piccata $14.2 > Lily's Chicken $13.5 > Fontina Chops $13.9 > Sirloin Steak 10 ounce $13.9 (add Garlic Gorgonzola butter $1.5) > > That is, all prices on the menu are in true decimal, in tenths of a > dollar rather than in cents (hundredths of a dollar). > > The other menu is from the Joy Luck Palace, a Chinese restaurant which > just reopened, under a different name (it used to be the China Buffet), > after remodeling. > > All prices on the menu are in dollars with no decimal point, e.g.=20 > Egg Drop Soup.............2 > Hot and Sour Soup........3 > Egg Roll......................2 > Sweet and Sour Pork.....9 > Moo Shu Pork..............9 > Beef with Broccoli........10 > Sauteed Steak Kew......15 > > These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because > they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop > Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > > Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on > which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) > > OT to Bill Mullins: you say > > My wife, on the other hand, has about thirty words for green. Some > things are taupe (which, like "whomever", is a made up word designed to > catch you in error). Also mauve (which may be the same as taupe, for > all I know). Back in the 'Fifties and 'Sixties, taupe was one of the colors used for parts of the uniforms worn by the U.S. military, e.g. raincoats, for example, in the case of men and women, and stockings and garter belts, in the case of women. In other words, once was a time when "taupe" was a word of everyday use, at least among those who were, or who had spent time in, the military. Isn't "taupe" the French word for "mole," the rodent? -Wilson > According to MWCD10 page 1207 column 2, taupe is "a brownish gray". > Note that M-W says this flatly without saying, as they sometimes do with > colors, "chartreuse: a variable color averaging a brilliant yellow > green". Mauve, on the other hand, is a specific color, that of the > aniline dye mauveine, discovered serendipitously by William Perkins in > 1856. (For more information see > http://dept.kent.edu/museum/exhibit/colors/3.htm). > > OT to Barry Popik: you quoted: > > 2 July 1957, Nevada State Journal (Reno, NV), "Rodeo Has Paid Shoulders > Generously in His Career; Riding Champ Hopes to Quit By Next Year," pg. > 3, col. 1: > "I've been trampin' around this suicide circuit for a long time." > > That's how Jim Shoulders, the man who won more money last year than any > other cowboy in the history of rodeo, sums up a career that has paid him > better than a quarter million dollars in ten years. > > Is there a mistake here? A quarter million in ten years is only > $25,000 per year, which was good but not spectacularly great back in > 1957 (the equivalent of between $100K and $150K in today's dollars.) > > James A. Landau > test engineer > Northrop-Grumman Information Technology > 8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300 > West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA > > =20 > ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^=20 > GZTWP PPKSZ YZTRV NAZTI EJONB=20 > SZFPQ RUBGX PLZYG YAIXJ SZRCT=20 > ZZAAW LAKOK TQRZA HHNFH JHFNF=20 > GZBPG=20 > ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jprucher at YAHOO.COM Wed Oct 31 21:50:08 2007 From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:50:08 -0700 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710311711.l9VFx74G025952@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: --- "Landau, James" wrote: > > These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because > they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop > Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 > > Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars > and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? > > (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on > which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) I've seen dollars without cents a few times before, usually in more upscale or trendy restaurants. The missing hundreds digit looks weird to me, although I think I've seen it on wine-by-the-glass lists at some restaurants that otherwise omit the decimal values entirely. Jeff Prucher Editor, Brave New Words: The Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction http://www.jeffprucher.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Oct 31 22:10:18 2007 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:10:18 -0400 Subject: More color confusion In-Reply-To: <200710301654.l9UAl5gI008993@mailgw.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I, too, have always known topaz to be kinda dark yellow(ish). BTW, in Saint Louis, it's pronounced "topoz," as lilac is pronounced "liloc", crappie (a fish) is pronounced "croppie," tassle is pronounced "tossle," etc. -Wilson On 10/30/07, James Harbeck wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: James Harbeck > Subject: Re: More color confusion > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I've always known topaz to be yellowish, and I've certainly seen it > up close and personal more than once. > > According to http://www.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/topaz/topaz.htm , > > "Topaz is a common gemstone that has been used for centuries in > jewelry. Its golden brown to yellow color is classic but is confused > with the less valuable citrine, which is sold under the name topaz. > The blue topaz that is often confused with aquamarine is rarely > natural and is produced by irradiating and then heating clear > crystals." > > And on the side of the same page is a bunch of ads for blue topaz > jewellery. Nary a sight of the yellowish kind. So apparently in some > quarters, topaz is thought of as blue! News to me. > > > James Harbeck. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. ----- -Sam'l Clemens ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Wed Oct 31 23:19:56 2007 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:19:56 -0500 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <200710312125.l9VLPUXn005783@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Think of it as an extension of the sans serif type face. A triumph of style over substance. > >> >>> The implication of the centless-dollar prices listed on the menu is >>> that anybody who has to worry about a few cents here and there >>> shouldn't be eating at such a restaurant? Or that anyone who could >>> be deceived into thinking that $24.95 for an entree is >>> significantly cheaper than $25 is too stupid or too penurious to >>> deserve eating there? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Oct 31 23:25:18 2007 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:25:18 -0400 Subject: noncents In-Reply-To: <219202.29803.qm@web53709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- "Landau, James" wrote: > >> >> These prices seem a little high to me, and I don't know if it's because >> they are in unit dollars and I would be more comfortable with Egg Drop >> Soup for $1.50 and Moo Shu Pork for $8.95 >> >> Has anyone else seen this phenomenon of not using traditional dollars >> and cents? Is this the beginning of a new trend? >> >> (I have seen one related example: on West Wing there was an episode on >> which Josh Lyman had to deal with a proposal to demonetarize the penny.) > >I've seen dollars without cents a few times before, usually in more upscale or >trendy restaurants. The missing hundreds digit looks weird to me, although I >think I've seen it on wine-by-the-glass lists at some restaurants that >otherwise omit the decimal values entirely. > Yup, and at our local excellent Malaysian restaurant the dinner menu is in the usual dollars-and-cents mode, but the single malt scotch offerings (and quite possibly the wine-by-the-glass ones) are in dollar amounts, sans decimal points/values. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Oct 31 23:58:55 2007 From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 19:58:55 -0400 Subject: star in Message-ID: Spotted in today's (31 October 2007) *Metro*, Philadelphia edition, as the caption to the picture in the 'TV tonight' section (p20): 'Stella (Melina Kanakaredes) and Mac (Gary Sinise) star in "CSI: NY."' For me, the subject arguments and their adjuncts are the wrong way around in this sentence. In my dialect, I would have to say 'MK (Stella) and GS (Mac) star in ...', because it's the actors who are doing the starring, not the characters; the sentence as quoted implies that it is the characters doing the starring. Neither *OED* nor *MW* lists this permutation of arguments for *star in*. Does it strike others as unusual? Has anyone heard it before, in which case it might be an incoming variant? Damien Hall University of Pennsylvania ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org