antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Wed Oct 10 22:28:08 UTC 2007
Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert
/r/ a la Britspeak.
FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever
race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any
evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in
the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright"
(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis,
"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of
a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred
to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people
refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as
"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team."
I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los
Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and
one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person,
darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV,
of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool.
Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as
we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain
down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do?
-Wilson
-Wilson
On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers.
> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do,
> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-)
> >
> >-Wilson
>
> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that
> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller"
> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather
> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is
> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")?
>
> LH
>
> >
> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about
> >> orthographic <r> in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically
> >> <er> used to represent [@:]).
> >>
> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> >> > Wilson,
> >> >
> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
> >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
> >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
> >> > both).
> >> >
> >> > dInIs
>
> >> >
> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > >-----------------------
> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >
>
> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it."
> >> > >
> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
> >> > >
> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine from down home
> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd speaker/singer from
> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.`
> >> > >
> >> > >-Wilson
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> > >>-----------------------
> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> > >>
> >> > >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >>
>
> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that, hits 'Katy,
> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer
> >> > >>
> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
>
> >> > >--
> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> > >-----
> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens
> >> > >
> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >> >
>
> >> > --
> >> > Dennis R. Preston
> >> > University Distinguished Professor
> >> > Department of English
> >> > 15C Morrill Hall
> >> > Michigan State University
> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824
> >> > 517-353-4736
> >> > preston at msu.edu
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
>
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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