antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Thu Oct 11 15:13:35 UTC 2007
I don't know what to tell you, dInIs. The use of bright(-skinned) goes
all the way back to my grandparents, at least, all of whom were born
in the 19th Century, it goes without saying. (FWIW, I read in a ghost
story called "The Duppy," back in the 'Fiddies, that "bright-skinned"
was a Caribbeanism, But, I've known only a single West Indian in my
entire life and the subject never came up.) (BTW, there were some
so-called "Black Caribs" from Belize at the Michigan LSA in '73. I
don't know whether they count as "West Indians" in the ordinary sense
of the term.) I personally have never actually used or heard other
than "light-skin," light-skinned," and "light-skinded" among my
friends. As I've said, I know "high-yellow" only from reading. Maybe
enough colored read, nowadays, for the term to have become commonly
used. A lot can change in fiddy years. For example, fiddy years ago,
"fifty" was pronounced "fit-tih" [fIttI]
Speaking of "fiddy," have you read that the rapper, Curtis Jackson,
when asked why it is that he uses the nom-de-hiphop, "50 Cent,"
replied that his stage name represents change.
-Wilson
On 10/10/07, Dennis Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Where you been, Wilson? .I heard high yeller (only from Black folk)
> in the Louisville area very frequently in the late 50s and early 60s.
> I was later amused in some PhD class at Wisconsin, where it was
> "revealed" to me as a term none of us would ever have encountered.
> Maybe they thought they were in touch with people with limited
> encounters. Maybe they were right, now that I think about it.
>
> dInIs
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Someone actually writes "high yeller"?! Who knew? Well, BE does insert
> >/r/ a la Britspeak.
> >
> >FWIW, I've never heard "high yellow" spoken by anyone of whatever
> >race, creed, color, nationality, or sexual orientation. Is there any
> >evidence that this has ever been used in the wild by anyone, even in
> >the past? My Texas and Alabama friends and relatives use(d) "bright"
> >(Texas) and "bright-skinned" (Alabama). In Saint Louis,
> >"light-skinned" was the universal term, though a couple consisting of
> >a dark-skinned partner and a light-skinned partner might be referred
> >to jokingly as "night & day." Recently, I've been hearing white people
> >refer to a couple consisting of a black person and a white person as
> >"night & day," replacing the older "salt-&-pepper team."
> >
> >I first heard "salt & pepper team" on a TV cop show set in Los
> >Angeles, only later hearing it in the Boston wild applied to me and
> >one of my housemates. She was a *very* dark-skinned white person,
> >darker than my mother, in fact, after a summer of soaking up the UV,
> >of Rumanian-Jewish descent. So, I felt that evvithang would be cool.
> >Unfortunately, there must be some racist version of gaydar. As soon as
> >we got out of the car, shouts of "salt-&-paper team" began to rain
> >down upon us. Oh, well. What can you do?
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >-Wilson
> >On 10/10/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> At 4:47 PM -0400 10/4/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >> >I've long noted that same phenomenon, myself, used by British writers.
> >> >I've never understood why they don't use "-uh" or "-a," the way we do,
> >> >well, the way we do, now, at least. It's far more transparent. :-)
> >> >
> >> >-Wilson
> >>
> >> Not just the Brits. Am I writing in assuming, as I always have, that
> >> "yeller" as in "high yeller" (for skin pigmentation) or "Old Yeller"
> >> (for the eponymous pooch) is so written to indicate final /@/ rather
> >> than the standard /o/, and that the rhotic pronunciation is
> >> essentially the same as that below (or in "Eeyore")?
> >>
> >> LH
> >>
> >> >
> >> >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >>-----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> >>
> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> As it happens, I've just posted something on Language Log about
> >> >> orthographic <r> in non-rhotic pronunciation spellings (specifically
> >> >> <er> used to represent [@:]).
> >> >>
> >> > > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004985.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 10/3/07, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> >> >> > Wilson,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's very doubtful that this orthographic /r/ indicates a phonetic
> > > >> > one. In reading the JC Harris stories, for example, folk who don't
> >> >> > know southern speech interpret such things as Br'er Rabbit as BRY-er
> >> >> > or some such silliness. We know, of course, that it is is "brother"
> > > >> > (bruh) and that Harris was using the "r" to indicate vowel quality
> >> >> > (usually wedge or lengthening, as in "bar" in your quote I think, or
> >> >> > both).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > dInIs
> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> > >-----------------------
> >> >> > >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > >Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >> > >Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> >>
> >>> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >
> >>
> >> >> > >"When she say that, hit's 'Katy, bar _ther_ do',' then, _fer_ she's
> >> >> > >gwine _ter_ do it."
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >I assume that the passage is a bit of eye-dialect BE.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Therefore, FWIW, I note that shwa [I spell it this way because I
> >> >> > >choose to] is replaced by shwa+r in this way in some fairly rare
> >> >> > >dialects of BE to this day. A ninety-ish cousin of mine
> >>from down home
> >> >> > >in Texas uses it and I've heard it used by the odd
> >>speaker/singer from
> >> >> > >bluesman to hiphopper. It sounds rather strange, hearing someone use
> >> >> > >an "r" where nobody else does, whereas the person doesn't use "r"
> >> >> > >where the standard, at least, does use one.`
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >-Wilson
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >> > >>-----------------------
> >> >> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >> > >> Poster: Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> >> >> > >> Subject: Re: antedating (?) "Katy, bar the door" (1890)
> >> >> > >>
> >> >>
> >>> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >>
> >>
> >> >> > >> On 10/3/07, Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> > 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say
> >>that, hits 'Katy,
> >> >> > >> > bar ther do, then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> >> > >> > [HNP Doc ID 229263831]
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Sorry, missed some punctuation in there:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> 1888 _Current Literature_ Dec. 499/1 When she say that,
> >>hits 'Katy,
> >> >> > >> bar ther do', then, fer she's gwineter do it.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> --Ben Zimmer
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> > > > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >>
> >> >> > >--
> >> >> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
> >>complaint to
> >> >> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> >> > >-----
> >> >> > > -Sam'l Clemens
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >>
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Dennis R. Preston
> >> >> > University Distinguished Professor
> >> >> > Department of English
> >> >> > 15C Morrill Hall
> >> >> > Michigan State University
> >> >> > East Lansing, MI 48824
> >> >> > 517-353-4736
> >> >> > preston at msu.edu
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> >--
> >> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> >-----
> >> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >> >
> >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >-----
> > -Sam'l Clemens
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Sam'l Clemens
------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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