Finally!

Sarah Lang slang at UCHICAGO.EDU
Tue Sep 25 14:45:46 UTC 2007


Obviously.
Thanks,
S.

On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:29 AM, Dennis Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Finally!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> But then you are using a preposition, not a particle.
> I can also "look over him" if he is short, but I have not examined
> him at all.
>
> dInIs
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Sarah Lang <slang at UCHICAGO.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: Finally!
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>> Agreed. If I "fuck over [personal pronoun]," I'm talking about where
>> I am physically located whilst fucking.
>>
>> Interestingly, why *does* the pronoun frak it to gorram hell?
>> S.
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:09 AM, Dennis Preston wrote:
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>  -----------------------
>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>  Poster:       Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>>  Subject:      Re: Finally!
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>>  ---------
>>>
>>>  I am a 'fuck over' speaker since the mid to late 1940's (which does
>>>  not at all challenge its perhaps earlier greater frequency in the
>>>  AfrAmer community). But if I had been in Wlson's barracks, I would
>>>  not have freaked.
>>>
>>>  I do not accept "fuck over him" any more than I would accept
>>> "looked
>>>  over him" (for eyeball, investigate, assess). "Fuck over N" or
>>> "fuck
>>>  N over" are both OK by me; It's the pronoun that fucks up it.
>>>
>>>  dInIs
>>>
>>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>  Subject:      Re: Finally!
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>>  ----------
>>>>
>>>>  What Jon said.
>>>>
>>>>  As for my claim that there's a relationship to race, "fuck
>>>> over" has
>>>>  been a BE street (and, in some households, a home)
>>>> colloquialism that
>>>>  I've been familiar with since the beginning of time. But this,
>>>> in my
>>>>  experience, is not the case among white speakers. As an example
>>>> the
>>>>  racial bit, in 1960, I once used the term in the barracks at
>>>> the Army
>>>>  Language School. I asked, "Have you guys heard about the way
>>>> that the
>>>>  First shirt fucked over Lupow?" And my barracks-mates, all of whom
>>>>  were white (during the time that I was at the Language School,
>>>> among
>>>>  approximately 400 students in the Russian Division, there were
>>>> only
>>>>  two black GI"s: your humble correspondent and a WAC with a big
>>>> butt),
>>>>  freaked. Not a single one had ever heard the phrase, "fuck over,"
>>>>  before. I was stunned, since I know it like I know my own name.
>>>>  Naturally, they thought that it was really cool and wanted to
>>>> learn
>>>>  it. (I had to teach some people that you say "FUCK over" and not
>>>>  "fuck
>>>>  OVER"). I first heard the expression, "fuck someone over" ca.1970
>>>>  and,
>>>>  from that time to the present, I've never heard it used by blacks
>>>>  under any circumstances, despite any literary evidence to the
>>>>  contrary, possibly because I've never been a fan of Louis
>>>> Armstrong,
>>>>  etc., not to mention that no such record would ever have been
>>>> played
>>>>  on the radio and it's doubtful that it would have been sold in any
>>>>  black record shop, back in the day, any more than a black store or
>>>>  shop would have sold pornography. Till at least the 'Seventies,
>>>> the
>>>>  most erotic material freely available in black-operated stores was
>>>>  Playboy, Jet magazine, and the Jet girlie calendar. I went to
>>>> grade
>>>>  school with Lamont McLemore, Jet's longtime girlie photographer -
>>>>  since ca.1950 - and also a member of the Fifth Dimension, the
>>>>  formerly
>>>>  well-known Saint Louis singing group. He was a Renaissance man, I
>>>>  reckon. It must have been a hard life, since Lamont, though he was
>>>>  younger than I am, died several years ago.
>>>>
>>>>  -Wilson
>>>>
>>>>  As for the syntax, saying "He fucked over me," etc., sounds
>>>>  completely
>>>>  natural to me. OTOH, "He fucked me over"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>   Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>   Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>>   Subject:      Re: Finally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>>  -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>   Though skin pigmentation is irrelevant per se, HDAS suggests
>>>>> (and
>>>>>  I believe) that "to fuck over X"
>>>>>
>>>>>     a. was indeed the original form in the sense in question,
>>>>>
>>>>>     b. has been vastly more prevalent among speakers of AAVE - so
>>>>>  much so as to sugget the idiom's origin there,
>>>>>
>>>>>     c. was not much used in white speech before the mid '70s,
>>>>>
>>>>>     d. still sounds rhythmically or positionally "wrong" to me
>>>>> as a
>>>>>  speaker of WAVE.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Earliest HDAS ex. is from 1961, but the context suggests it
>>>>> was
>>>>>  around for a while.
>>>>>
>>>>>     The form "fuck X over" undoubtedly owes something to "work X
>>>>>  over."  I believe this is becoming the general form.
>>>>>
>>>>>     JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>     ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>  -----------------------
>>>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>   Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>   Subject: Finally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>>  -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>   The correct usage has appeared in print! From Slashdot:
>>>>>
>>>>>   "... [G]ranting corporations the right to _fuck over_ other
>>>>>   corporations who come up with rather ordinary improvements ..."
>>>>>
>>>>>   Lest the point be missed, for those of us old enough (and/or
>>>>>  black enough?),
>>>>>
>>>>>   "... [G]ranting corporations the right to _fuck_ other
>>>>> corporations
>>>>>   _over_ who come up with rather ordinary improvements ..." is
>>>>>   ungrammatical.
>>>>>
>>>>>   That is, [fuck NP over] is absolutely *not* a viable or a
>>>>>  grammatical
>>>>>
>>>>>   alternative to [fuck over NP]. Unless, of course, you speak a
>>>>>   different dialect.
>>>>>
>>>>>   There are 215,000 raw Google hits that include uses such as "get
>>>>>  the
>>>>>   fuck over it." So, sorting out the various usages would take ten
>>>>>  men
>>>>>   and a boy. But the Urban Dictionary, at least, has it right.
>>>>> Well,
>>>>>   sort of. The second definition defines _fuck over_ as a
>>>>> Briticism
>>>>>   meaning "fuck over," with examples ambiguous as to dialect. And
>>>>>  either
>>>>>   UD doesn't have "fuck NP over" (unlikely?) or I don't know how
>>>>>  to find
>>>>>   it (likely?).
>>>>>
>>>>>   -Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>>   -Wilson
>>>>>   --
>>>>>   All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>>  complaint to
>>>>>   come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>   -----
>>>>>   -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>>
>>>>>   ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>   The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   ---------------------------------
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>  complaint to
>>>>  come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>  -----
>>>>                                                -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>>  University Distinguished Professor
>>>  Department of English
>>>  Morrill Hall 15-C
>>>  Michigan State University
>>>  East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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