Probably too late, now

[Wilson Gray]

That "Ark Turus" speaks to me, Larry. A puissant example. Even though
"Mark Twain" has "rk T," I don't think that anyone misses the fact
that there are two words. But "Arcturus" is on the HNL ("a 'ho' nuvva
levva").

-Wilson

On 9/29/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Probably too late, now
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 4:41 PM -0400 9/29/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >Well, until someone comes up with a phonological analysis of English
> >that can account for the occurrence of [-rkt-],
>
> Maybe it has something to do with the stress pattern.  I have no
> trouble with, say, "Mark Twain" or even "Arcturus", but I've never
> pronounced the /k/ in "Arctic", even though if I had to guess, I'd
> have guessed it was there historically.
>
> LH
>
> >  its occurrence is a
> >spelling pronunciation that I choose to ignore. [artIk]: that's my
> >pronunciation and I'm sticking with it. Of course, f I were under
> >seventeen instead of over seventy, I'd probably be more flexible.
> >Indeed, I probably wouldn't even care. I'd just go with the spelling
> >that would get me the highest GPA and use my spare cognitive energy
> >for fantasizing about girls.
> >
> >-Wilson
> >
> >On 9/29/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
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> >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>  Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> >>  Subject:      Re: Probably too late, now
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>  Merely as a point of interest: the Century Dictionary of 1889
> >>already recognized only the
> >>    "c-ful"  pronunciation.
> >>
> >>    But Arnold's info persuades me to revert.
> >>
> >>    JL
> >>
> >>  "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
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> >>-----------------------
> >>  Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>  Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
> >>  Subject: Re: Probably too late, now
> >>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>  On Sep 28, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >>
> >>  > ... As children in Saint Louis, we were specifically taught, in
> >>  > fourth-grade "georgaphy" - another pronunciation that the nuns labored
> >>  > to eliminate - that "Arctic" was to be pronounced as though spelled
> >>  > "Artic" [artIk] and *not* as [arktIk].. As a consequence, for the past
> >>  > sixty years or so, I've been incredibly annoyed by the
> >>  > seemingly-universal use of the spelling-pronunciation, [ar_k_tIk].
> >>
> >>  like jon lighter, and no doubt many others here, i had exactly the
> >>  reverse experience. the facts are more complex than either of these
> >>  teachings would suggest. from the American Heritage Book of English
> >>  Usage (1996):
> >>
> >>  _Arctic_ was originally spelled in English without the first _c_,
> >>  which was later reintroduced after the original spelling in Greek.
> >>  Both [pronunciations] are equally acceptable...
> >>
> >>  the Wikipedia page on "words of disputed pronunciation" shows a very
> >>  complex pattern of advice (in this summary, (1) is the [k]-less
> >>  pronunciation, (2) the pronunciation with [k]):
> >>
> >>  The debate is whether or not the cluster is pronounced [kt] or
> >>  just [t]. M-W lists both, with (1) first, but OED only lists (2)
> >>  while noting that the oldest spelling (dating from the 14th century)
> >>  is _Artik_, implying that (1) is the older pronunciation. EEPD lists
> >>  only (2). LPD lists both for both British and American English, but
> >>  marks (1) as "considered incorrect" for British. K&K list both but
> >>  mark (2) as "now rare". Generally, the same pronunciation for the
> >>  cluster is used for both _arctic_ and _antarctic_. However, M-W
> >>  lists (2) first for _antarctic_.
> >>
> >>  M-W: the Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> >>  EEPD: Everyman's English Pronouncing Dictionary (Gimson rev., 1977)
> >>  LPD: Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (1990)
> >>  K&K: Kenyon & Knott, A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English
> >>
> >>  arnold
> >>
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> >
> >--
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> >                                               -Sam'l Clemens
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--
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
                                              -Sam'l Clemens

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org