"open o" loss

[Wilson Gray]

What "reversal"? These two words are homonyms, falling together as "farmer."

At first, I didn't even notice the difference in spelling in Larry's
example, since "farmer  former  fart  fort" all have the syllabic
sound, far - uh, I mean "for," of course - us speakers of the (old?)
Saint Louis dialect. And "for" and "far," seem-like to me, fall
together universally as "far" in r-ful BE dialects.

For me, spoken English reached the peak of perfection ca.1958. So,
many of my observations may be as outdated as my observations WRT
slang.

-Wilson

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>  Subject:      Re: "open o" loss
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> At 12:43 PM -0400 4/24/08, David Bergdahl wrote:
>  >What about the farmer/former reversal
>
>  or the "Who laid the fort in the fart?" phenomenon, as a colleague
>  from Utah described it.
>
>  LH
>
>
>
>  >/Or/ : /ar/... or is Athens, GA too
>  >sophisticated for that?
>  >-db
>  >
>  >On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
>  >wrote:
>  >
>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>  >>  -----------------------
>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>  >>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>  >>  Subject:      Re: "open o" loss
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  >>
>  >>  At 9:43 AM -0400 4/24/08, Charles Doyle wrote:
>  >>  >"Four" would ordinarily have /o/ or /ow/; "for" would have the open
>  >>  >o. (The parallel distinction often mentioned in the textbooks is
>  >>  >"hoarse" vs. "horse.")
>  >>  >
>  >>
>  >>  Yes, but for (*4) me the pun is extremely forced even though I merge
>  >>  "horse" and "hoarse".  The preposition "for", unless it's
>  >>  contrastively stressed ("Chris is FOR Obama, not aGAINST him"), has
>  >>  an extremely bleached out schwaish vowel (if it's a vowel at all, as
>  >>  opposed to a syllabic liquid), rather than the open- or closed-o of
>  >>  "four".  It's hard for me to tell which vowel I have in the latter
>  >>  (or in "horse" and "hoarse") because of the r-coloring.
>  >>
>  >>  LH
>  >>
>  >>  >
>  >>  >---- Original message ----
>  >>  >>Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:11:36 -0400
>  >>  >>From: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
>  >>  >>
>  >>  >>What vowels would the local dialect normally have?
>  >>  >>
>  >>  >>Herb
>  >>  >>
>  >>  >>On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Charles Doyle <cdoyle at uga.edu> wrote:
>  >>  >>>
>  >>  >>>   Disregarding the traditional dialect of the local area, the
>  >>  >>>University of Georgia's gymnastics team is sporting the slogan
>  >>  >>>"Back 4 more" as it enters the NCAA meet this weekend, hoping to
>  >>  >>>win its fourth consecutive national championship.
>  >>  >>>
>  >>  >>>   (The pun--which was not at first obvious to me--merges "four" and
>  >>  "for.")
>  >>  >>>
>  >>  >>>   --Charlie
>  >>  >>>   _____________________________________________________________
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All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
 -Sam'l Clemens

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